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- [00:01]
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Hi Crime House community. It's Carter Roy and if you love digging into the most gripping true crime stories, then you need to listen to another Crime House original, Crimes of with Sabrina Deanna Roga and Corinne Vien. Crimes of is a weekly series that explores a new theme each season from Crimes of Paranormal, unsolved murders, mysterious disappearances, and more. Sabrina and Corinne have been covering the true stories behind Hollywood's most iconic horror villains, and this month they'll be diving into the paranormal. Listen to Crimes of every Tuesday on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you listen to podcasts. This is his Crime House.
- [00:59]
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Thanksgiving is a special time of the year in the U.S. it marks the start of the holiday season, which usually means lots of quality time with family and your.
- [01:10]
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Fellow Crime House hosts, who some might say are even better than family.
- [01:15]
B
So nice of you to join us for this holiday special, Carter.
- [01:17]
A
Thank you, Vanessa. A Thanksgiving is typically a wholesome opportunity for us to come together and take stock of everything we have to be grateful for. But in some cases that family time isn't all gratitude and gravy and instead pent up resentments and long held wishes bring out people's ugliest and deadliest urges.
- [01:58]
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The human mind is powerful. It shapes how we think, feel, love and hate. But sometimes it drives people to commit the unthinkable. This is a special Thanksgiving episode of Killer Minds, a Crime House original. I'm Vanessa Richardson.
- [02:15]
C
And I'm Dr. Tristan Ingalls. Every Monday and Thursday we uncover the darkest minds in history, analyzing what makes a killer. And today we're joined by a dear member of the Crime House family, Carter Roy, host of True Crime Stories.
- [02:30]
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Crime House is made possible by you. Follow Killer Minds and subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts for ad free early access to each two part series. And if you can't get enough true crime, go search and follow Crime House daily. Our team's twice a day show bringing you breaking cases, updates and unbelievable stories from the world of crime that are happening right now. Before we get into the story, you should know this episode contains graphic descriptions of violence, murder, child abuse, animal abuse, sexual abuse and mutilation. Listener discretion is advised. Today we begin our deep dive into Thanksgiving Day murders. Over the next two episodes we'll be covering four tragic cases revolving around the holiday meant for gratitude that ended in murder. Murder. This episode will begin with the story of Paul Marriage, who suffered from obsessive compulsive disorder for years before opening fire on his entire family and killing four of them. Then we'll explore the case of Omaima Ari Nelson, who fled a violent childhood in Egypt and chased a fairy tale ending in California. But just when she finally seemed to get it, Omaima ended her own marriage in a bloody nightmare.
- [03:54]
C
And as Vanessa and Carter take us through the stories, I'll be talking about things like how isolation from family during the holidays can intensify a killer's violent thoughts, how family dynamics can be affected by shared trauma, and how differing claims of partner abuse can affect the outcome of a murder trial.
- [04:13]
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And as always, we'll be asking the question why? What makes a killer.
- [04:22]
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Cold Mornings holiday to dos and all the chaos this season I just want my wardrobe to be simple pieces that look sharp, feel amazing, and that I'll actually wear that don't just sit there because maybe I don't really like them. That is why I reach for quints over and over. And the bonus their pieces make gifting completely stress free this season. Quints keeps it smart and simple. Fun $50 Mongolian cashmere sweaters that feel like a little everyday luxury and wool coats that are both stylish and durable. I have been living in their cashmere sweaters and admittedly their suede jackets. They hold up beautifully through everything this season. And Quint's isn't just clothing. They have amazing gifts for the home, bath, kitchen and travel. Give and get timeless holiday staples that last this season with quint. Go to quint.com crimehous for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.com crimehouse Free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com crimehouse your perfect style is more.
- [05:40]
C
Than a fit, it's a feeling. When you step into any Maurices, our stylists are dedicated to helping you find the perfect outfit because there's no better feeling than looking your best. Shop at one of our 800 plus stores or online at maurices.com for new items arriving daily and holiday flash deals. Maurices that styled feeling.
- [06:10]
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In 2009, 35 year old Paul marriage was not living the life he expected. Growing up, Paul had high expectations for himself and so did his family. Paul was born in 1974 in southern Florida to parents Carol and Michael. Two years later, the family welcomed twin girls, Lisa and Carla. Paul liked setting a good example for his younger sisters. As a student at Gulliver Prep, a prestigious private school in Miami, Paul was among the highest achieving students. He got excellent grades, played on multiple sports Teams and led the French honor society. He seemed to have everything going for him, and he always believed his entire family was to thank for that. When Paul was a senior, he gave a statement in the yearbook thanking them for all their love and support and saying how blessed he was to have them.
- [07:03]
A
In 1992, Paul graduated third in his class and went on to study pre med at the University of Miami. He was on the fast track to success and happiness. However, when Paul was 19 years old, things started to change. The details aren't clear, but Paul's mood and demeanor suddenly darkened. He no longer found joy in his everyday life. Paul stopped going to class and started avoiding his friends. He compulsively showered multiple times a day. Paul was developing some obsessive compulsive tendencies, which only worsened when his father was diagnosed with prostate cancer. We don't know when Michael was diagnosed, but it seems like he was successfully treated. However, the experience deeply rattled Paul, who said it broke his sense of hope and spirituality.
- [07:59]
C
So assuming that Paul truly has obsessive compulsive disorder, and that's really what's going on here, it's likely he didn't suddenly develop these tendencies, but rather they intensified under stress. The average age of onset for OCD in males is actually around 10 to 12 years old, and how it shows up varies by person. But early behavioral signs often include perfectionism and rigidity, traits that can easily be mistaken for discipline or giftedness, which Paul was exhibiting. And when we look at how high achieving he was, it might appear that he was simply ambitious and driven. But underneath, he may have felt enormous pressure to succeed or to please others and to stay in control. Even in how he spoke about his accomplishments, there's this subtle undertone of self doubt, almost as if he was performing for approval rather than recognizing his own worth. Now, high achievement can also sometimes mask deep psychological strain. And with ocd, stress amplifies symptoms. It creates uncertainty and helplessness. And for someone with obsessive tendencies, that triggers the urge to control whatever they can through rituals, rigid routines, or avoidance. So when Paul entered a demanding pre med program, then faced his father's cancer diagnosis, those two events were highly stressful and likely over overwhelmed him. And that could have activated and worsened an existing or untreated vulnerability, which would explain why it's suddenly visible to the people around him, at least to this degree.
- [09:28]
B
Do you think it's possible that studying medicine could have led him to develop germaphobia or a similar condition?
- [09:35]
C
It's absolutely possible. Medical training immerses students in Constant discussions of disease, contamination and risk, which can heighten anxiety in anyone, but especially in somebody who's already predisposed to obsess or even perfectionistic thinking. So for an individual like Paul, learning in detail how easily illness can spread or how fragile the human body is, can reinforce fears about contamination or loss of control. Clinically though, exposure to medical information doesn't create ocd. But like I said, it can trigger or amplify contamination related obsessions in those with a genetic or psychological vulnerability. The student begins to over identify with the risks they study by hand washing more, showering excessively, double checking things, all because of an intrusive fear.
- [10:28]
A
Whatever was wrong with Paul, he couldn't get a handle on it. Soon he experienced a full on nervous breakdown. While we don't know all the details of what happened, Paul was soon diagnosed with both depression and obsessive compulsive disorder. Things were getting so bad he couldn't handle being in college anymore. In 1994 at age 20, he dropped out and moved back home with his parents.
- [10:53]
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Carol and Michael. Marriage hoped that by having Paul move in with them, they'd be able to help him get his life back on track. But things didn't work out that way. Instead, Paul's condition got worse. He had trouble sleeping, gained weight and spent hours a day in the shower. He also developed more compulsive rituals like wrapping his thumb in cellophane and sucking on it and wearing multiple pairs of underwear paintings. Paul's behavior prevented him from holding down a job and he became completely financially dependent on his parents.
- [11:27]
C
So this is very severe decompensation and even regressive behavior provided there's no co occurring disorder occurring here or even medical or cognitive disorder. These behaviors can be consistent with severe OCD and are attempts to neutralize overwhelming anxiety and regain a sense of safety. For Paul, they create an illusion of control in a body or environment that feels unsafe or even unclean.
- [11:52]
B
We don't know if he continued receiving treatment, but after a couple of years, Paul's parents seemed to think he was doing better. In 1996, Carol and Michael arranged for Paul to move into his own apartment and even paid his rent. But that only caused Paul to feel more isolated and therefore resentful towards his family.
- [12:11]
A
He became especially cold toward his sisters Lisa and Carla. He was jealous of their normal lives and burgeoning careers. Paul felt that if he was suffering, they should be too. So he tried to make them suffer. One day in 1998, Paul went to the police station and claimed that Carla was trying to kill him. He requested a restraining order against her. When the police spoke to Carla, she denied everything. And a few weeks later, Paul withdrew his request.
- [12:45]
C
So if we consider how high achieving he once was and how closely tied that was to his identity and the trajectory that that put him, the downfall from that can be as destabilizing as the stressors that led him home to his parents in the first place. So with that in mind, his resentment toward his sisters appears to stem from envy and externalized blame, particularly when it's framed this way that he was wanting to make them suffer and was jealous of their normal lives. So to someone who might not be thinking clearly, watching their, quote, normalcy likely felt invalidating to his own personal sense of loss. We also see elements of possible projection. He's accusing Carla of trying to kill him. It's easier to believe you're being persecuted than to confront that the problem is internal. But it could also be an indication that he might be having violent urges or intrusive thoughts, which can happen or co occur with ocd. People with OCD are not typically violent. In fact, they're often the opposite. They tend to be deeply conscientious and distressed by the very idea of harming someone. They are driven by fear, fear, not malice. Which has me wondering if there's more going on here than ocd.
- [13:57]
B
Do you think it's possible that Paul maybe was suffering from delusions or paranoia?
- [14:02]
C
Yes, and that's something I flagged as well when you were both walking through the story. If I were assessing Paul or someone presenting like him, I'd be inclined to rule out a psychotic disorder, given his behavior, the age at which symptoms escalated, the degree of functional decline, and the increasingly bizarre nature of his thoughts and actions. That doesn't necessarily mean he has a psychotic disorder, but clinically, it would be best practice to evaluate. For one, at age 19, he had a drastic decline. And that's a typical age of onset for schizophrenia in males as well. And schizophrenia can appear like OCD early on. Similarly, OCD can absolutely look like paranoia because both are rooted in fear and perceived threat. But the underlying psychology is very different. In ocd, those fears are ego dystonic, meaning the person knows their thoughts are irrational or unwanted, yet feels powerless to stop them. They're distressed by them. That's why they perform rituals or compulsions. They want to quiet the anxiety that those thoughts create. In contrast, paranoia within a psychotic disorder is egosyntonic. The person fully believes the delusion, even in the face of clear evidence. To the contrary, they don't experience doubt about them. They experience certainty. So while the behaviors might appear similar on the surface, to some degree, the inner experience is entirely different. OCD is driven by fear and doubt. Psychotic paranoia is driven by false certainty.
- [15:33]
A
Once Carol and Michael heard about what happened between Paul and Carla, they were afraid their son had become dangerous. So in 1999, when he was 24, 25, they placed him in a mental health care facility. Unfortunately, their efforts didn't help. We don't know how long Paul was in the facility, but as soon as he was released, he attempted to take his own life. He survived, but it seems like he continued to struggle for the next few years because he tried again in 2005. And from there, things only got worse.
- [16:09]
B
In May of 2006, Paul started making threats to Carla more frequently. Until one day he threatened to kill both her, her and himself. The rest of the marriage family was so worried, Michael visited local firearm stores and warned them never to sell a gun to Paul. That still didn't make the family feel better, though. The other relatives didn't know what else to do except distance themselves from Paul completely. For the next few years, they stopped inviting him to family events like birthdays and holidays. The only ones who weren't ready to give up on Paul were his parents, Carol and Michael. By 2009, they got tired of the distance between him and the others. So on Thanksgiving of that year, Carol and Michael tried to mend some fences. They just wanted things to go back to normal. Instead, they would never be the same again. Meet the computer you can talk to with Copilot On Windows, working, creating and collaborating is as easy as talking. Got writer's block?
- [17:18]
C
Share your screen with Copilot Vision to.
- [17:20]
B
Help spark inspiration and use Copilot voice to have a conversation and brainstorm ideas. Or maybe you need some tech help with Copilot Vision. Copilot sees what you see. Let Copilot talk you through step by step guidance so you can master new apps, games and skills faster. Try now@windows.com copilot.
- [17:39]
C
Hi, I'm here to pick up my son Milo.
- [17:41]
B
There's no Milo here who picked up my son from school? Streaming only on Peacock.
- [17:49]
A
I'm gonna need the name of everyone.
- [17:50]
C
That could have a connection.
- [17:52]
A
You don't understand. It was just the five of us.
- [17:54]
B
So this was all planned.
- [17:56]
C
What are you gonna do?
- [17:57]
B
I will do whatever it takes to.
- [17:59]
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Get my son back. I honestly didn't see this coming.
- [18:01]
C
These nice people killing each other.
- [18:04]
A
All her fault.
- [18:05]
B
A new series Streaming now only on peacock.
- [18:11]
A
In 2009, 35 year old Paul marriage was estranged from most of his family. With the exception of Paul's parents Carol and Michael, everyone thought he was unsafe to be around. That year, Paul's cousin Muriel Sitton hosted over a dozen relatives for Thanksgiving at her house in Jupiter, Florida. Muriel lived with her husband Jim and their six year old daughter Michaela. Those invited included Carol, Michael, Carol's brother Antoine and his wife Raymond, Paul's sisters Carla and Lisa, their husbands and their cousin Clifford. Paul didn't get an invite that evening.
- [18:52]
B
As Muriel set the table, the family was happy to be gathered together. But the festive mood was interrupted when people overheard Michael on the phone with Paul. When Michael hung up, he confessed that he and Carol had invited their son to Muriel's house and he was on his way over. Everyone was nervous, especially Paul's sisters Carla and Lisa. But all anyone could do now was hope for the best. Just as the family was getting ready to eat, Paul walked in. He quietly took a seat at the table, but he refused to eat anything. He sat there in silence the entire time.
- [19:32]
C
Paul being isolated from family is completely understandable from a safety perspective. Family members are not treatment teams. They are not trained nor educated to effectively manage someone like PA Paul on a day to day basis. However, isolation like that can also accelerate decline in someone who is already struggling with obsessive or possibly even psychotic symptoms. In Paul's case, the isolation likely deepened both his resentment and his distortion of reality. Without daily interaction or structure, his world would revolve around his own thoughts and rituals. And if those thoughts are irrational, distorted, paranoid and obsessive, then that can quickly spiral out of control without intervention. And if we remember just how important family was to Paul in his high school years and how he emphasized their involvement in his success directly, feeling their loss could escalate feelings of shame and a loss of identity. But while it's true that isolation likely worsened Paul's condition, it's also important to acknowledge that his family was in an impossible position. Setting boundaries in the face of violent or unpredictable behavior is self protection and often a very painful last resort. The family's not responsible. This is the tragedy of severe mental illness. The very people who need connection the most can become unstable to be close to safely. And this is why early and sustained interventions are so critical. And despite Paul's family attempting to get him the support that he needs, it's up to Paul to stay connected to that support. He cannot be forced into treatment unless he meets very strict Criteria.
- [21:11]
B
Paul's sour mood was palpable the entire time. After dinner, he followed everyone into the the next room where they gathered around the piano to sing songs together. Paul quietly stood off to the side the whole time. He didn't clap along with the others when Muriel's daughter Michaela performed a dance from the Nutcracker or say good night to the six year old when she went to bed. A little after 9pm, Paul suddenly walked out of the house. After about 20 minutes, people started to think he'd left. But then all of a sudden, Paul returned wielding a handgun.
- [21:46]
A
When his family saw the gun, they scattered. Many ran into the backyard, but others didn't make it. Paul fired at Carla first, killing her instantly. Then he followed the rest of the group outside where he shot his sister Lisa, who was pregnant with her first child, and Lisa's husband Patrick. When Michael saw this, he ran over to Lisa and tried to give her cpr, but it was no use. Lisa didn't survive. Meanwhile, Paul continued shooting. One of his bullets grazed his cousin Clifford. Then Paul shot his aunt Raymond in the shoulder. Her husband Antoine rushed over to try and stop the bleeding. But while Antoine was crouched next to his wife, Paul shot him in the chest. After Antoine was hit, he was still conscious. So Paul tried to to shoot him in the head. But the gun jammed, giving Antoine time to escape. As Paul reloaded, he shouted that he'd been waiting 20 years to do this. But he hadn't known all his victims that long, including his next one. Because next he went inside and killed 6 year old Mikayla while she slept in her bed. By then someone had called 911. As the sirens approached, Paul ran to his car and escaped.
- [23:10]
B
He'd killed four family members. Michaela, Raymond, Carla and Lisa, who was pregnant, plus three injured Clifford, Antoine and Patrick, who was placed in a medically induced coma. When Patrick finally woke up three months later, he had to be reminded of the tragedy that occurred in the midst of the family's grief. Michaela's father Jim, said he believed Paul was trying to snuff out her light.
- [23:39]
C
What Paul did didn't happen overnight. This is the result of long term psychological decompensation and deterioration. Over time. Paul's thinking appears to have shifted from self blame to externalized blame. He began to believe that the people who once symbolized love and success for him were now the source of his pain. It mirrors how when he was thriving, he credited his family for his achievements. But in decline, he reversed that logic. It's persecutory logic his family also came to represent everything he'd lost, which is love, stability, purpose and normalcy. In his mind, this pattern suggests a mix of possible delusion, resentment and a loss of insight, traits that are not really characteristic at all of ocd. It seems to point more towards psychotic decompensation. And again, to be clear, I have never met nor evaluated Paul. So this is educational only and it's not a formal diagnosis.
- [24:36]
B
Paul couldn't stand his family's happiness, so he ripped it from them. Meanwhile, he was nowhere to be found. Authorities issued a warrant for his arrest on four counts of first degree murder and two counts of attempted first degree murder. They knew how dangerous he was, so they offered a $10,000 reward to anyone who could provide information leading to his arrest. After the shooting, Paul made a getaway to the Florida Keys over 150 miles from Jupiter. On December 2, 2009, he went into hiding. He stockpiled food and checked into a motel. Using a fake name, he told the motel manager not to let anyone into his room, not even to tidy up. Paul also kept his car covered to try and avoid being spotted. While Paul holed up in the motel, he considered taking taking his own life. But it doesn't seem like he made any serious attempts. And after a month of hiding, he was finally exposed.
- [25:36]
A
On January 2, 2010, the motel manager saw an episode of America's Most Wanted that was about Paul. He recognized him immediately. The manager alerted the police, who swarmed the motel and arrested Paul that same day. He was held at the Palm Beach County Jail without bail while prosecutors prepared for trial. If convicted, Paul would be facing the death penalty. Paul's defense blamed his severe mental health issues for his actions. But the only member of his family who was sympathetic was his father. Michael was also the only person who kept in contact with Paul. His mom, Carol, wouldn't speak to her. Him. Shortly after his arrest, Paul told his dad he regretted what happened and said he didn't know how he could have hurt everyone the way he did. But Paul's regret didn't ease his family's suffering. In fact, in their grief, different parts of the family turned on each other. Both Patrick as well as Muriel and her husband Jim filed civil lawsuits against the marriages, saying it was their fault for inviting Paul despite knowing how dangerous he was. The marriages responded by filing a countersuit against Muriel and Jim, saying they should not have allowed Paul into their home once he arrived.
- [26:58]
C
Sadly, what's happening within Paul's family isn't unusual. It's actually quite human. They've all endured something horrific and traumatic, and the mind instinctively tries to find order in the chaos of that. So in the search for meaning, blame can become a coping mechanism. It's a way to make sense sense of something that feels senseless, which this truly was. And this is traumatic grief, too, because it stems from a violent and incomprehensible loss. Each family member is trying to manage unbearable emotions while processing a really irrational event. They're likely also in a bargaining stage of grief, which is the woulda, coulda, shoulda questions like could I have stopped this? Did I miss the signs? Why him? Why us? When those questions have no satisfying answers, pain often turns toward the people closest to the trauma. So blaming another family member can momentarily ease that guilt by restoring some kind of illusion of control. And in this case, there's another layer, the public spotlight. This tragedy was broadcast nationwide on America's Most Wanted. When grief unfolds under scrutiny like that, accusations and legal action can sometimes act as shields against shame, because the public often questions the family's actions as well, like why did they invite a man in? Or why didn't they stop him? As if they could have predicted something like this. And the truth is, they couldn't. Their actions or inactions weren't invitations for violence, no matter how you want to frame it. But the speculation and judgment only fuels defensiveness and deepens the family divide. It's heartbreaking, but it's also understandable from a human level.
- [28:37]
B
Is it possible for loved ones to reconcile after something like this?
- [28:42]
C
So, admittedly, it's very difficult to do, but of course, it's not impossible. What it will take is a lot of time, intentional effort, and certainly healing. Trust needs to be rebuilt. Grief needs to be worked through independently first, and pain cannot be minimized for anyone for any reason. The key is to shift the blame into understanding what happened cannot be changed, despite how desperately we wish it can be. But understanding why blame is happening and why they turned it on one another to begin with is critical. It will take courage, patience, and often the help of trauma informed professionals. But it's possible. When grace replaces judgment.
- [29:24]
A
We don't know if the different members of the family ever made up, but a Florida judge eventually threw out both lawsuits.
- [29:32]
B
Then, in October 2011, two years after the murders, Paul accepted a plea deal in order to avoid the death penalty. He pleaded guilty and received seven consecutive life sentences. He remains in prison and still doesn't speak to any of his family members except his father. Now the broken family was left to grieve all that they lost. With Thanksgiving marking a somber memorial instead of a joyful gathering. Coming up, another Thanksgiving murder. This time we'll explore a lunatic loving couple with big plans for their future until one person puts a violent end to things during their first Thanksgiving together.
- [30:21]
C
This is a real good story about Bronx and his dad Ryan, Real United Airlines customers.
- [30:27]
A
We were returning home and one of the flight attendants asked Bronx if he wanted to see the flight deck and.
- [30:32]
C
Meet Kath and Andrew. I got to sit in the driver's seat.
- [30:34]
A
I grew up in an aviation family and seeing Bronx kind of reminded me of myself when I was that age.
- [30:40]
B
That's Andrew, a real United pilot.
- [30:42]
A
These small interactions can shape a kid's future.
- [30:44]
B
It felt like I was the captain.
- [30:47]
A
Allowing my son to see the flight deck will stick with us forever. That's how good leads the way.
- [30:52]
B
This episode is brought to you by Greenlight.
- [30:54]
C
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- [30:56]
B
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- [31:15]
C
Education and future today with a risk.
- [31:17]
B
Free trial at greenlight.com Spotify greenlight.com Spotify Some cases fade from headlines. Some never made it there to begin with. I'm Ashley Flowers and on my podcast the Day Deck, I tell you the stories of cold cases featured on playing cards distributed in prisons designed to spark new leads and bring long overdue justice. Because these stories deserve to be heard and the loved ones of these victims still deserve answers. Are you ready to be dealt in? Listen to the Deck now wherever you get your podcasts.
- [31:54]
A
As a child, one of the first lessons that Omaima Ari Nelson learned was that violence is inevitable. Omaima was born in 1968 in Cairo, Egypt. She was one of 16 children in a poor family living under the domineering watch of an abusive father. When Omaima was just six years old, her father forced her to undergo female circumcision, an extremely cruel, painful and inhuman procedure without any anesthesia. After Omaima was put through this torture, her mother had enough. She took Omaima and two of her sisters and left.
- [32:35]
C
What Omaima had to endure at such a young age was not only traumatizing, but it can fundamentally alter a child's relationship with their body and with the concept of Control, Something like that can teach a child that their body's not their own. And in that moment, the very people whose job it is to protect her became the source of violation. She learns that her body can be controlled, changed, or harmed at someone else's will, and she can't resist. And that can lead to depression, post traumatic stress disorder, dissociation, boundary confusion, substance abuse, and other maladaptive coping mechanisms later in life. So as we go through Amaima's story, her behaviors, her relationships, her reactions, it's important to remember that her understanding of power, control, and intimacy was likely shaped in the most violent way imaginable at a very young age. That single event could have left her with a lifelong struggle to reclaim autonomy over her body and her sense of self.
- [33:34]
B
Female genital mutilation, or fgm, was actually normalized in Egypt at the time that Omaima was forced to go through with it. How could that level of societal acceptance have further impacted things for her?
- [33:47]
C
That's a really important question and also a very important discussion, because the social context adds another layer of psychological harm. So imagine growing up in a world where something, something as painful and violating as that procedure is treated as ordinary or a rite of passage, like getting a haircut. When a whole society calls trauma normal, it rewires what safety and consent actually means. It's like being gaslit. You learn not to trust your own pain, and that can create such intense confusion that you stop believing that your body or your feelings even belong to you. So for Amaima, the harm didn't end with the act itself. It continued in the silence or the acceptance that followed. And that can be just as scarring as the traumatic incident itself, because it teaches a child that suffering is normal or expected, and there's no room or space to process that, despite how painful and contradictory it felt.
- [34:46]
A
Even after moving away from her father, Omaima was desperate to find a way out of Egypt. It seems like she thought marriage was the best way to do it, because as a teenager, she started searching for a man who could give her a better life. And in 1986, when she was 18 years old, Omaima found someone who fit the bill.
- [35:08]
B
That year, Omaima met an American tourist named Roger Stainbrook. After a quick courtship, they got married, and Omaima moved to the United States with Roger. Their relationship didn't last long from there. Shortly after arriving in the US they got divorced. But Omaima wasn't heartbroken. She had all she needed, which was a future in America. That same year, Omaima settled on her own in Costa Mesa, California. She loved it there. It was just a few miles from the beach and Disneyland. The breezy lifestyle was a far cry from the life she knew in Egypt. And that's exactly what she wanted. But she still had to make a living. Pretty soon Omaima started working as a nanny and part time model. Through her modeling job, she was exposed to more of an upper class way of life. And Omaima seemed to want more. However, the jobs she currently had wouldn't get her there. So she looked for another way to get ahead. Which for her meant finding another man. She started going out to bars to meet people. Pretty soon she was dating multiple men. But she didn't commit to any anyone seriously. She was waiting for someone who could give her everything she wanted. Fun, romance and money. However, there were other reasons that Omaima's relationships didn't last. Like her hot temper. Once she returned home drunk from a night out and got into an argument with her roommate who said he was going to kick her out. Omaima reportedly reacted by pulling out a gun and threatening to shoot him. We don't know what happened after that, but fortunately she didn't pull the trigger. But Omaima found other ways to build a record. She racked up traffic violations and even once stole a car from a man she was dating. She also continued on her violence streak. In 1989, three years into her life in California, 21 year old Omaima assaulted a female security guard. Guard while attempting to shoplift. But one of her worst offenses allegedly came in November of 1990. Oh. Mima was dating a man named Robert Hansen. According to Robert, she asked him one night if he wanted to try something new in the bedroom. Omaima pulled out some rope and tied Robert up. Then she left the room. When Mima returned, she had a gun and demanded money from him. Him.
- [37:38]
C
Her pattern of criminal behavior could be somewhat opportunistic, but rather it feels more compulsive. Almost like she's reenacting a cycle of control and power that she never had growing up. When we see repeated impulsive or predatory acts like this, especially ones that escalate over time, it often reflects deep psychological disorganization rather than strategic criminality. So for someone with a trauma history like hers, crime can ironically become a form of agency. It's a way to overcompensate for never feeling controlled by someone again. And if you break it down, her actions carry themes of dominance, power and survival, making that a more likely scenario. This Isn't to excuse the behavior. It's to recognize that in some trauma survivors, Particularly those who've learned that power equals safety, Behaviors like these can feel self protective. What looks like criminal compulsion on the surface May actually be an expression of unresolved trauma, Distorted through fear, anger, and self protection from future victimization. At the same time, there could be something else co occurring here, Such as the early signs of a mood or even psychotic disorder beginning to emerge. She's 21 years old, and this is right around the developmental period when we sometimes start to see the first hints of those conditions. For women, symptoms often become more noticeable in the early to mid-20s, especially under chronic stress or instability.
- [39:05]
B
How do you think omaima might have justified her violent actions? And why do you think she used sex Specifically to target her victims?
- [39:15]
C
She may have justified her actions Based on core beliefs and the worldview that she has on bodily autonomy or dominance, which is a framework that likely was established early on While growing up in egypt. Starting with genital mutilation, Violence in that frame Becomes redefined as self protection or even justice. As for her use of sex to target victims, that's actually significant. Sex was likely both her tool and her trick trigger. From a trauma perspective, early sexual violation confuse, at times intimacy with danger. So for some survivors, Sex becomes transactional. It's a way to gain control before power can be gained over them. So in a sense, this could have been a distorted reenactment of her lived experiences and trauma, Only with a reversed power dynamic that might have felt like a reclaiming.
- [40:08]
B
Seemed to feel no shame and continued with her risky lifestyle. But one night in the fall of 1991, when Omaima was 23, her life reached a turning point. She was out at a bar flirting with men when she caught the attention of 56 year old Bill nelson. Bill was a pilot who'd made a small fortune Smuggling electronics from the US To Mexico On a flight fleet of planes he owned. He had also served four years in prison for smuggling marijuana. But bill had another side to him, too. He was a divorced father who now lived in costa mesa Working as a computer programmer. To omaima, Bill was the full package. He was rich, handsome, and adventurous. He'd lived life in the fast lane just like her. But he was turning over a new stable leaf. As soon as they met, Omaima and bill began a whirlwind romance. Just two days after they met, Bill proposed. And two weeks after that, they went to las Vegas to get married. However, bill was technically still married to his ex wife. So it was purely symbolic to the new couple. That was just a technicality in their eyes. They were bound to each other for life and they started calling each other husband and wife. But soon after they took this step in their relationship relationship, Omaima started rethinking the lifetime commitment she'd made and she realized if she wanted out, she'd have to take drastic measures.
- [41:44]
A
This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime Black Friday Game day on prime is an epic day of live sports. It all starts at 9am Eastern with.
- [41:53]
C
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- [41:57]
A
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- [41:59]
C
And it culminates with the final night.
- [42:01]
A
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- [42:13]
B
This episode is brought to you by cars.com on cars.com you can shop over 2 million cars. That means over over 2 million new car possibilities. Like making space for your growing family, becoming the type of person who takes spontaneous weekend camping trips or upgrading your commute wherever life takes you next. Or whoever you're looking to be. There's a car for that on cars.com visit cars.com to discover your next possibility. In 1991, 23 year old Omaima Nelson and 56 year old Bill Nelson entered a whirlwind romance. Even though Bill was in the middle of a divorce, the new couple declared that they were husband and wife just weeks after they first met with her even taking on his last name. But as soon as they committed themselves to each other for life, things took a dark turn.
- [43:07]
A
According to Omaima, Bill stopped being the generous, romantic man she fell for and began abusing her both physically and social sexually because she had been forcefully circumcised as a child. Sex was painful for Omaima, but Bill made her do it anyway. Not only that, but he pimped her out to other men. Apparently he even once threw a kitten that Omaima had recently adopted out of a moving car because she refused to perform oral sex on him while he was driving. Still, Omaima put on a smile and pretended to be happy because she was afraid of what Bill would do if she told anyone the truth. That might be why, according to one of Bill's friends, that the couple seemed completely in love. To others, it seemed like the two were building a life together. They would even visit Bill's grandchildren so that Omaima could bond with them. At the same time, at least one of Bill's children. His 15 year old daughter Margaret disapproved of his new relationship and when Bill invited Margaret to spend Thanksgiving with him and Omaima, she refused.
- [44:19]
C
People can be quick to assume that a Mima's not telling the truth because people aren't witnessing necessarily what she's alleging. So the first thing to note judging something based only on what's visible is a cognitive bias. The reality is, most abuse does happen behind closed doors, and abusers can be very skilled at presenting as charming or respectable in public. Victims may also hire their suffering and abuse out of fear, shame or dependence, which tracks with Omaima's account and with most survivor accounts. In that sense, her claim deserves acknowledgment as part of a trauma narrative. Not to mention the observers who say they appear in love all seem to be people close to Bill. With the exception of Margaret, his daughter, they are his friends, his grandchildren or children. Omaima's support system, as far as we know, is non existent or at least very limited, and that also needs to be considered. Are their observations reliable? Is there a relational bias happening? It's also possible that Omaima's perception was clouded by her psychological state and her trauma history. For someone with significant early life trauma, the mind can become hypervigilant to control criticism or perceived danger. Even normal conflict or emotional distance can feel like abuse when it echoes earlier experiences of powerlessness. So it might have been a small disagreement between Omaima and Bill that could have been perceived as life threatening to someone with a complex trauma history. If there was an undiagnosed or emerging psychotic condition, for example, or she was experiencing paranoia or distorted reality testing that could be contributing to her perception as well. There's also the possibility of instrumental distortion. In rare cases, individuals with severe personality or trauma related pathology may claim abuse to reframe power dynamics or to justify their own violence after the fact. If she felt shame, guilt or or fear of losing control, portraying herself in a certain way could serve as psychological or social protection. A lot of narcissistic offenders do this, many of whom have legitimate trauma histories as well. At the same time, it's important to note that her allegations of abuse were not substantiated and they surfaced at a point that could be viewed as strategically significant, which we'll talk more about later. So it's also possible that these claims are part of a legal defense rather than a reflection of actual events. So that said, before discounting the account of anyone who describes themselves as a survivor, it's equally important to Take a balanced view and look at the entire picture. Allegations of abuse should never be dismissed outright. They should always be examined within context, whether it's clinical, legal, or emotional.
- [47:04]
B
Do you think the whirlwind nature of their relationship, I mean, getting married in two weeks, do you think that could have had anything to do with the varying accounts?
- [47:13]
C
Oh, yeah, absolutely. When a relationship moves quickly, especially one built on that kind of intensity or attraction and even fantasy rather than stability, both people can project idealized versions of themselves and each other. There's little time there then to build trust, establish boundaries, or even create an accurate sense of who the other person really is. And that speed and emotional intensity can also blur perception. Behaviors that might seem thrilling or passionate early on can later feel controlling, manipulative, or unsafe once the initial excitement fades. It's also kind of characteristic of just idealization and love bombing in early domestically violent partnerships, too, which is something to consider.
- [47:59]
A
The bottom line is we don't know for sure what went on behind closed doors. But on November 28, 1991, Omaima did something that was impossible to deny or dispute.
- [48:12]
B
Omaima and Bill planned to celebrate Thanksgiving, just the two of them, @ his apartment in Costa Mesa, California. At some point before they sat down for dinner, they went into the bedroom for sex and engaged in rope play. At some point, things turned dark. Omaima grabbed a lamp and bludgeoned Bill with it. Then she used a pair of scissors to stab him in the chest and stabbed stomach until he was dead. Once she calmed down, Almaima didn't seem to feel regret or shame. She began to worry about how she would get away with what she'd just done. Seemingly acting on impulse, Almaima dragged Bill's body into the kitchen, which wasn't easy because he was so much bigger than her. As she moved him, she left a trail of blood behind her. Once she made it to the kitchen. Kitchen, Almaima grabbed a knife, then skinned and dismembered him. She removed his hands, then placed them in a pot of boiling water on the stove. Finally, she castrated and decapitated him and put his head in the freezer. As Omaima's actions became increasingly brutal, all she could think about was how to get away with it. She realized she didn't have a clear plan. Plan. So she tried a few different tactics for destroying the evidence.
- [49:33]
A
Omaima carried a few body parts to the bathtub, rinsed them off, then wrapped them in newspaper. She tried to put everything in an athletic bag, but it was so full it wouldn't zip shut and blood was seeping out. Omaima then put some remains into trash bags and brought the rest to the kitchen sink. Piece by piece, Omaima ran bodies parts through the garbage disposal to try and hide it. She mixed in some of the turkey they were supposed to eat that night. But Omaima yet again failed to think through her actions. She worked all night and into the next morning, and she still hadn't disposed of everything. Some reports say that Omaima got so desperate, she cooked up some of the remains remains and ate them, although this is a claim that she has since denied.
- [50:26]
C
So despite the sheer brutality of this crime, what stands out most is how complex Omaima's mental state likely was. On one hand, her actions show clear organization and rational thought. She followed a familiar pattern by tying Bill up first, a tactic she'd used before on a previous boyfriend to ensure power, control and dominance before robbing him at gunpoint. If Bill was restrained when she killed him, it strongly suggests she wasn't acting in immediate self defense. But then after the murder, she went to great lengths to conceal the evidence. As disturbing as those acts are, they demonstrate goal directed thinking. She knew what she did was wrong, both morally and legally, and she was trying to undo it. That kind of planning reflects an awareness and an appreciation of the wrongfulness of her actions, which is central when we think about criminal responsibility. But psychologically, there's another layer. The manner of dismemberment and the sheer chaos afterward point to someone in extreme emotional distress, possibly dissociative, panicked, or detached from reality. It's as if she was oscillating between two states. Cognitive control and effective chaos. The need to destroy evidence may also have symbolized a desperate attempt to erase what happened, not just to protect herself legally, but on a deeper level, to erase the unbearable reality of her own actions. So while parts of her behavior were clearly organized, the emotional state behind it was anything but. And this was a person who's fluctuating between fear, control and dissociation from herself.
- [52:07]
B
Please help us understand why her behavior became so extreme so suddenly.
- [52:13]
C
I can only speculate, obviously, because I haven't met her or evaluated her. But given that this occurred before or during the act of sexual intercourse, and given we know about her history, her pattern of behavior, her use of sex, I think it's more likely than not that it triggered a powerful trauma response. So in that moment, her brain may have registered the situation not as consensual or intimate, but as dangerous and violating. So for someone with a Background like hers, what might feel normal to one person can, for a trauma survivor, reactivate the original terror and helplessness from earlier experiences. Remember, sex is painful for her, so that reaction isn't rational, though. It's biological. The nervous system shifts into fight, flight, or freeze. Obviously fight. In this case, that would explain why her behavior escalated so suddenly and so extremely. And what followed, like I mentioned, was likely panic and dissociation and an emotional shutdown that can occur after an intense survival response like that. Some trauma responses can result in transient psychosis as well, which can last up to one. These are rare, and this kind of resulting violence is also extremely rare. But what happened here, I believe was a result of multiple confounding factors like untreated complex post traumatic stress disorder, definitely personality instability, substance use, chronic stress, rage, and then situational triggers that seem to have overwhelmed her coping capacity.
- [53:48]
A
Sounds like a lot of different reasons maybe coming together. And whatever those reasons are for Omaima's violent and extreme behavior, she continued with it. She spent the next two days dismembering Bill's body. When she was done, she still had a lot to get rid of. Plus, the apartment was covered in blood.
- [54:09]
B
Omaima realized she couldn't handle everything on her own. So on December 1, 1991, she drove to see an ex boyfriend, Nick, named Jose, to ask for his help. When she arrived at Jose's doorstep, she was frantic. She told him what she'd done, but she said it was self defense. Omaima offered Jose $75,000 to help her clean and dispose of everything. Jose tried to keep her calm as he listened. Finally, he agreed to help and said he'd meet her back at her place. Omaima returned home and paced around, around the apartment, waiting for Jose. Soon, she heard a knock at the door. But when she opened up, it wasn't Jose standing there. It was the police. He'd called them. As soon as she left, officers rushed inside. They quickly observed all of the blood stains and discovered the bags of remains as well as what was left in the freezer. Omaima was immediately brought in for questioning. At first, she denied having anything to do with the whole situation. But later, she admitted to murdering Bill and said it was an act of self defense. After he raped her, she told investigators that Bill had tied her up that night because she refused to have sex on account of it being too painful for her. However, she didn't provide an explanation for dismembering and cooking his remains.
- [55:32]
A
The next day, Omaima was charged with murder and was held without bail about one year later. Her trial began on December 1, 1992. In the courtroom, Almaima's defense claimed she'd been a victim of abuse throughout her life, including in her relationship with Bill. One of their witnesses included a psychiatrist who had assessed Omaima after her arrest. He said he believed Omaima was in a psychotic state when she dismembered Bill's body and that in 20 years of practice, he'd never encountered a subject who was crossing, quote, so bizarre and psychotic. But the prosecution had a different story to tell. Alma had said Bill tied her up before she killed him. But when Bill's remains were examined, investigators found ligature marks on his ankles that suggested he had been tied up. On top of that, a medical exam performed on Omaima right after her arrest showed no signs of physical traffic trauma. Finally, the prosecution highlighted Omaima's history of attacking her boyfriends, including the one she once tied up and robbed at gunpoint. According to them, Omaima dismembered Bill's body in an effort to prevent him from being identified later, they argued that she boiled his hands to remove his fingerprints and put his head in the freezer so that she could remove his stuff teeth more easily later on.
- [57:02]
B
After a month long trial, Mima was found guilty of second degree murder and sentenced to 27 years to life in prison. She unsuccessfully appealed the case in 1995 and continued her stay at the Central California Women's Facility in Chowchilla, California. While in prison, Omaima incurred seven several infractions, including fighting in common spaces, possession of contraband, and battery on a staff member. Because of this, she was denied parole two more times in 2006 and 2011. Omaima will be up for parole again in 2026. She says that she dreams of returning to her mother in Egypt. Perhaps that family reunion is in Omaima's future future, but for the Nelson family, they'll never be able to have a family holiday together again. Thanks so much for listening. Come back next time for two more stories about Thanksgiving. Thanksgiving's gone wrong.
- [58:17]
C
Killer Minds is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on Instagram Rimehouse and don't forget to rate, review and follow Killer Minds wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference.
- [58:37]
A
And to enhance your listening experience, subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode of Killer Minds ad free along with early access to each thrilling two part series and exciting bonus content.
- [58:54]
B
Killer Minds is hosted by me, Vanessa Richardson and Dr. Tristan Engels with special guest Carter Roy and is a Crime House original. Powered by Pave Studios, this episode was brought to life by the Killer Minds team. Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Lori Marinelli, Natalie Pertovsky, Sarah Camp, Sarah Batchelor, Sarah Tardif and Kerry Murphy. Thank you for listening.
- [59:27]
A
Looking for your next crime house? Listen. Don't miss Crimes of with Sabrina, Deanna Roga and Corinne vi. Crimes of is a weekly series that explores a new theme each season from Crimes of the Paranormal, unsolved murders, mysterious disappearances and more. Their first season is Crimes of Infamy, the true stories behind Hollywood's most iconic horror villains. And coming up next is Crimes of Paranormal real life cases where the line between the living and dead gets seriously blurry. Listen to Crimes of every Tuesday on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you listen to podcasts.