MYSTERY: The Sleepwalker Murder featuring Payne Lindsey

Summary

Podcast Summary: Murder: True Crime Stories

Episode: MYSTERY: The Sleepwalker Murder (feat. Payne Lindsey)
Date: March 6, 2026
Host: Carter Roy
Guest: Payne Lindsey (Up and Vanished)

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the infamous 1997 murder case of Yarmila Flater—commonly called "The Sleepwalker Murder." Host Carter Roy and guest Payne Lindsey explore the psychological mysteries, court trial controversies, and haunting aftermath of a case where a seemingly loving husband, Scott Flater, claimed to have killed his wife while sleepwalking. The episode examines not only the crime but also the complexities of sleep disorders, legal and moral responsibility, and the impact on the surviving family.

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Key Topics & Discussion Points

1. Introduction to the Case & Guest (01:12–04:01)

• Setting the Stage:
  • Payne Lindsey introduces the case: a brutal, perplexing murder—44 stab wounds, a pool full of blood, a confused husband (Scott Flater) who claims to have no memory of the event.
  • Payne notes the case's "weirdness" and its lingering resonance due to its challenge to our understanding of the mind and memory.
    • Quote: "Scott's story shows how complex our minds really are. It makes us question how well we really know ourselves." (03:18 – Payne Lindsey)

2. Scott Flater’s Background and Sleepwalking History (05:08–17:58)

• Early Traumas:
  • Born in 1955, eldest of five in a chaotic, abusive household.
  • Father was emotionally and physically abusive; Scott often protected siblings.
• Emergence of Sleepwalking:
  • Childhood onset, incidents growing increasingly dramatic and violent (pushing, throwing his sister).
  • Family kept his sleepwalking secret to preserve normalcy.
• Personal and Family Life:
  • Married high school sweetheart Yarmila; steady, religious, family-centered life.
  • Converted to Mormonism together; moved several times for Scott’s career.
  • No public history of violence or marital strife.

3. Events Leading to the Crime (19:48–29:37)

• Build-Up of Stress:
  • Severe work stress due to impending job layoffs, leading Scott to lose sleep and (against religious beliefs) take caffeine pills.
  • More frequent sleepwalking episodes observed by Yarmila as stress increases.
• The Day of the Murder (Jan 16–17, 1997):
  • Regular evening: family dinner, church, attempted pool filter repair.
  • Scott goes to bed at ~10:00 PM.

The Night of the Crime

• Neighbor Accounts (20:00–29:37):
  • Neighbors hear moans, see Scott outside in PJs, washing his hands, donning gloves, dragging Yarmila, holding her underwater.
  • 911 is called as Scott is seen drowning his wife.
• Police Arrival:
  • Scene is grisly—Yarmila in pool, water red with blood, evidence hidden in car trunk.
  • Officers arrest Scott, who appears confused, asking what's happening, saying he’d been asleep.

4. Investigation and Trial (30:05–47:00)

• Initial Interrogation:
  • Scott professes love for Yarmila, claims total memory loss of the event (31:00+).
  • Is visibly shocked when confronted with evidence (blood, wounds).
• Official Charges:
  • Charged with first-degree murder, facing the death penalty.
  • Family, especially children, shocked and steadfastly support his innocence.

Trial Highlights

• Prosecution’s Argument:
  • Led by Juan Martinez; claims methodical crime and cleanup show Scott was awake.
  • Details: multiple precise actions, clean clothes, evidence stashing.
  • Motive weak—marriage presumed happy, lack of concrete evidence of intent.
  • Memorable moment: "According to [the sleep expert], Scott performed at least 65 actions that were uncommon for a sleepwalker." (approx. 41:00)
• Defense’s Argument:
  • Points to lifelong, well-documented sleepwalking disorder.
  • Family testifies about his violent sleepwalking history.
  • Brings in experts from a similar Canadian case (Kenneth Parks).
  • Sleep studies show Scott’s sleep was extremely unstable before the murder.
  • Expert quote: "Many sleepwalkers can perform coordinated and complex actions… Scott’s behavior was even simpler." (Defense expert Dr. Roger Broughton, approx. 44:00)

5. Emotional Testimony and Verdict (47:00–51:00)

• Scott’s Courtroom Statement:
  • Admits confusion, deep grief; explains willingness to undergo sleep studies.
  • Quote: “All the scientific jargon and diagnoses were beside the point. He expressed his utter devastation at the loss of his wife and said her murder would haunt him forever.” (50:30)
• Jury and Sentencing:
  • Jury deliberates eight hours; finds Scott guilty of first-degree murder.
  • Judge spares him the death penalty after heartfelt letters from family, including the children and even from Yarmila’s mother.
  • Outcome: Life without parole. Scott remains in prison; appeals denied.

6. Case Aftermath and Reflections (51:00–52:42)

• Life After for Survivors:
  • Children grow up to be successful, still haunted by the events.
  • Scott has become a model inmate, teaching development courses.
• Lingering Questions:
  • The case remains a haunting mystery—did Scott truly have no control?
  • Raises broader issues of moral and legal accountability for violent acts committed in altered states of consciousness.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Unreliability of Memory:
  • "We've all been in a situation where we completely forget something we've done… For Scott Filleder, they were horrifying." (01:12 – Payne Lindsey)
• About Sleepwalking Danger:
  • "His mother and sister knew he would never intentionally hurt them. So whatever happened at night stayed between the family." (10:00 – Carter Roy)
• Neighbor’s Testimony:
  • "He walked back over to the woman who Greg now believed was Yarmila. Scott crouched down, grabbed his wife and dragged her to the edge of the pool. Then he pushed her in." (20:30 – Carter Roy recounting Greg Coons’ statement)
• On Moral Ambiguity:
  • "If someone didn’t intend to do something, is it the same thing? But then on the other side of the coin, if someone’s capable of killing people when they’re sleeping, that’s not really safe for everybody, either." (56:12 – Payne Lindsey)
• Personal Reflection:
  • "I think for me, I'd be curious your thoughts. I sort of feel like…certainly taking the death penalty off seemed reasonable in case he really was sleepwalking." (62:05 – Carter Roy)

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Extended Conversation: Psychological and Moral Complexity (52:42–64:02)

Personal Experiences with Sleep Phenomena:

• Payne shares his own brush with "exploding head syndrome," underscoring the unpredictability of the sleeping mind.
  • Quote: "I heard what sounded audibly to me like the loudest train horn I've ever heard inside the room. It was an actual auditory thing… I ended up looking it up later. And I think it's called exploding head syndrome." (53:39 – Payne Lindsey)

Discussion on Responsibility and Safety:

• Both reflect on whether lack of intent (due to sleepwalking) reduces responsibility, or if the potential danger justifies permanent separation from society.
  • Quote: "If this were to happen to a loved one of mine, I would not accept the idea of, oh, he didn't mean to, so let's just drop it." (60:47 – Payne Lindsey)

Jury Dilemma:

• Carter asks: “If you were sitting on the jury now, knowing everything, what do you think you would have done?” (56:42)
• The uncertainty in separating accident from intent, and the weight of public safety, lingers.

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Key Timestamps

| Segment | Time | |--------------------------------------------|-----------| | Introduction & Case Overview | 01:12-04:01| | Scott Flater’s Background | 05:08-17:58| | The Night of the Crime | 19:48-29:37| | Investigation & Interrogation | 30:05-34:30| | Trial – Prosecution & Defense Arguments | 34:30-47:00| | Verdict, Sentencing, Aftermath | 47:00-52:42| | Psychological & Moral Debate (Discussion) | 52:42-64:02|

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Conclusion

The Sleepwalker Murder case challenges what we assume about accountability, consciousness, and the veneer of normalcy in everyday life. With insights from famed investigator Payne Lindsey, the episode navigates the complicated intersection of mental health, the justice system, and the trauma that ripples outwards from such tragedies. For listeners, it is a sobering meditation on the boundaries between intent, accident, and the unpredictable depths of the human mind.

Transcript

[Carter Roy]

Hey, it's Carter. If you're enjoying Murder True Crime Stories, there's a new crime house show for you to check out. It's called the Final Hours, hosted by Sarah Turney and Courtney Nicole. Sarah is an advocate for missing and murdered victims whose own sister disappeared in 2001. And Courtney is a true crime storyteller who has seen firsthand how crime can change a family forever. Together, they bring lived experience to every case, examining the moments just before a person disappears. The routines, the timelines, the small details that often get overlooked because every disappearance has a moment where everything still feels normal. Until it doesn't. Listen to and follow the final hours on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes drop every Monday. This is crime house.

[Payne Lindsay]

44 stab wounds, a swimming pool full of blood, a witness who saw it all happen, and a man who had no idea he'd just become a killer. Memory can be tricky like that. We've all been in a situation where we completely forget something we've done. Maybe your parents told an embarrassing childhood story you don't remember, or your friends had to fill you in after too many drinks. For the most part, these realizations are harmless, sometimes funny even. But for Scott Filleder, they were horrifying. One night in 1997, Scott's life was shattered when he learned that his wife of 20 years was brutally murdered in their backyard. Scott said he was fast asleep when it happened. Then things took an even darker turn when police told Scott he was the one who actually did it. Welcome to the sleepwalker murder.

[Carter Roy]

People's lives are like a story. There's a beginning, a middle, and an end. But you don't always know which part you're on. Sometimes the final chapter arrives far too soon. And we don't always get to know the real ending. I'm Carter Roy, and this is True Crime Stories, a crime house original powered by Pave Studios. And today I'm joined by Payne Lindsay, the host of the up and Vanished podcast.

[Payne Lindsay]

Thanks for having me, man.

[Carter Roy]

Yeah. So glad you're here. And now, before we dive in, make sure to go and follow up and Vanished, if you haven't already. Every season, Payne Cover covers a different cold case. His coverage has led to some remarkable results and put an important spotlight on stories that need to be told. Trust me, you do not want to miss it. Today, Payne is going to introduce the case we're covering and explain why it's one he hasn't been able to get out of his head. Then be sure to stick around at the end as we sit down for an extended conversation about these shocking events.

[Payne Lindsay]

Yeah, this is definitely a case that sticks with me personally, because it's just weird. Today, Carter's going to tell you all about Scott Filleder, also known as the sleepwalker murderer. In 1997, Scott's world came crashing down when his wife was found dead in their backyard. She'd been drowned and stabbed repeatedly. Scott had no idea what happened until he was in handcuffs. What followed was one of the most controversial trials in US History, and I can see why. Scott's story shows how complex our minds really are. It makes us question how well we really know ourselves. All that and more coming up.

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[Carter Roy]

Scott Filleder learned the art of compartmentalizing at a young age. He was born in Illinois on September 14, 1955. The eldest of five kids, he was raised in a middle class Catholic household where his mother Lois was a nurse and his father, Frederick was an HR manager. Even though the Feladers were devout Catholics, their house wasn't always a peaceful one. Behind closed doors, Frederick was reportedly a heavy drinker with a sharp temperature. He and Lois fought a lot and things often got violent. Frederick also abused his children emotionally and physically. As the oldest boy, Scott usually got it the worst, but he never complained. His main priority was taking care of his siblings and despite the chaos and violence at home Scott excelled in school. He played the clarinet and loved classical music. As far as anyone could tell, he was a happy and well adjusted kid. They had no idea that behind that cool demeanor, Scott was struggling. The stress of dealing with his father manifested in some concerning ways that Scott seemed to have no control over. When he was around 10, Scott started wetting the bed. Not long after, he was sleepwalking too. He never had any memory of what he did during these episodes. He only heard about it from his family. At first, Scott would just stumble around the house and even though his eyes were open, he was completely asleep. But it wasn't long until these episodes got more intense. One night when he was around 12 years old, Scott came out of his room butt naked, walked into his parents room and told he was ready for school. Frederick got out of bed and placed his hands on Scott's shoulders to try to guide him back to his room. Scott pushed back with alarming force. His father couldn't get him to move at all. Frederick was stunned and Lois was disturbed. The strength that Scott displayed was borderline aggressive. His parents weren't sure how to help him after that and they were worried about triggering him while he was sleepwalking. Their hesitation was understandable, but it only made things worse. Not long after this incident, Scott left the house naked and walked to school in the middle of the night. Clearly, Scott was having a hard time coping with his home life. And unfortunately, things only got more difficult when he was a teenager. At some point, his father abandoned the family. Lois was now a single mom raising Scott and his four siblings alone. Even though Frederick had tormented Scott and the others for years, he was still Scott's dad and he couldn't help but feel a huge sense of loss. A few years later, when Scott was 18, he experienced another devastating loss when one of his friends died in a drunk driving accident. All that grief had a huge impact on Scott and soon his sleepwalking went from unsettling to violent. One night when Scott was around 20 years old, he walked into the kitchen partially clothed and tried to open the back door. His sister Laura was in the room at the time. She knew that Scott was under a lot of stress because of his final exams. So when she noticed her brother's trance like state, she could tell what was happening and she didn't want to let him wander off outside. Laura reached around Scott and tried to secure the deadbolt to stop him from leaving. A moment later, Scott turned and looked at her with an expression that Laura later described as demonic. The look sent a chill down her spine. But before she could do anything, Scott grabbed her, but lifted her up and threw her across the room. Fortunately, it doesn't seem like Laura was badly hurt, but after this incident, Scott was aware of the harm he could inflict while unconscious. Still, Scott's mother and siblings knew he would never intentionally hurt them. So whatever happened at night stayed between the family. Keeping his sleepwalking a secret meant Scott could still have a normal academic and social life. And his social life was thriving. In high school, Scott met his first and only girlfriend, Yarmoula. Scott, who was pretty soft spoken, was drawn to Yarmila's confidence and dry sense of humor. The more they got to know each other, the more they realized how much they had in common. Yarmila was the eldest of her siblings and was raised in the Catholic household. We don't know if Scott told Yarmila about his sleepwalking, also known as parasomnia, but if he did, it didn't bother her. Yarmila saw a future with Scott, and nothing was going to change that. After high school, they went to college 50 miles apart. But they didn't let the distance get in the way of their relationship. They visited each other every month and supported each other's dreams. Yarmola studied microbiology while Scott did electrical engineering. He also worked part time to start saving up for their future family. Despite how busy they were, the young couple stuck it out, and soon they were ready to take the next step. In 1975, during the summer before their senior year of college, Scott took Yarmola to her favorite restaurant and proposed. Yarmula said yes. They planned to get married after they each earned their master's degrees. But before that could happen, they made another big decision. One day in 1976, a pair of Mormon missionaries knocked on Scott's door. They started chatting, and Scott was surprised by how much their words moved him. He and Yarmila were both raised Catholic, but neither of them felt deeply connected to their religion. But when Scott spoke with the missionaries, he realized the Mormon faith called to him. He and Yarmula were still long distance, so Scott started going to Mormon services on his own. Soon he was making new friends there and regularly attending church events. He told Yarmila how much his new faith meant to him and asked if she would be willing to convert as well. Yarmila was skeptical at first, but eventually her fiance persuaded her. That same year, they were both baptized in the Mormon Church and later got married. The next few years were pretty uneventful. The couple was happy as could be and their careers were taking off too. In 1980, when they were both in their mid-20s, they left Illinois and moved to Melbourne, Florida to start new jobs. Scott became an electrical engineer and Yarmila worked in a medical lab. Soon they were able to buy a house and one year later they welcomed their first child, a daughter named Megan. A few years after that, their son Michael was born. Scott and Yarmila were living a fairy tale. Their friends in Florida couldn't help but notice how happy they were together. They never fought or complained about each other at all. Even better, Scott was an incredibly loving father. It seemed like he wanted his kids to have the kind of dad he'd always hoped for. He and Yarmoula took active roles in their kids lives, taking Michael to Cub Scouts and Megan to piano lessons. Megan and Michael always knew they could count on their parents. Eventually, Yarmoula quit her job so she could be there for her kids around the clock. And while she stayed home, Scott's career skyrocketed. He was the kind of steady, family oriented guy that his colleagues admired. And soon his reputation helped him land a new role in Minnesota. Yarmoula and their kids were happy for him. The only problem was that they'd have to leave behind the community they built in Florida. When they got to Minnesota, they realized it didn't have as much to offer. This was mainly because their local church was smaller. Since Yarmoula stayed home, this affected her more than anyone. Soon she began feeling isolated and resentful. Scott could see how unhappy she was, so he looked for solutions. In 1987, Scott got a new job in Phoenix, Arizona. Not only was it a corporate level management position, but Arizona had a much larger Mormon population than Minnesota. Once they were in Phoenix, the fellators quickly found a strong church community. Soon enough, everyone in the family was feeling at home and Yarmoula was feeling like herself again. She even got a part time job as a teacher's assistant. She loved it so much that she planned to go full time when the kids were older. But she and Scott decided that Arizona was where they wanted to settle down for good. And thanks to Scott's performance at work, they were even saving up for retirement. Within a few years, Scott was leading some of the company's most important projects. But in the late 90s, things got more complicated. One of the product lines he was in charge of wasn't performing well. If things didn't get better, Scott would have to be the one to lay people off to try to stop that from happening. He started pulling all nighters to get more work done and hopefully save people's jobs. Soon Scott was showing up to work bleary eyed and tired and even falling asleep in meetings. Despite his Mormon faith, which prohibited caffeine, Scott started occasionally taking caffeine pills to stay awake. One pill apparently had twice the caffeine as two cans of Red Bull would have today, and in the end it was all for nothing. Eventually Scott's boss told him they were having a department meeting on January 17, 1997. That's when he would have to break the news to several people that they were being let go. Scott did not take it well. By then Yarmila had seen him sleepwalk a handful of times, but nothing serious ever happened. Usually he woke up in the living room or even on their bedroom floor with no recollection of how he'd gotten there. But the more stressed he became, the more often it started to happen and Yarmula was getting worried. To try to take his mind off work, the Feladers took a trip to Sedona, Arizona on December 28, 1996. While there, they took in the canyon views and spent quality time together. At one point Yarmila turned on her video camera and captured 41 year old Scott with his arms around 17 year old Megan and 12 year old Michael. The Feladers had no idea that would be one of their last home videos because just a couple of weeks later one of them would be dead and another would be facing execution.

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[Carter Roy]

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[Carter Roy]

In December of 1996, 41 year old Scott Volater and his family vacationed in Sedona, Arizona. The trip was mostly for Scott's benefit. He was under a ton of stress at work in just a couple of weeks. On January 17, 1997, he was supposed to lay off several of his employees. Scott had been dreading it for a while, and even though the trip to Sedona did help him decompress a bit, once they were back home, he was already back on edge. But as the meeting got closer, Scott did his best to stay calm. When he got home from work on January 16, he had dinner with Yarmila and the kids. Then he got ready for the church youth class he taught. After that, Yarmila reminded him that the filter in the pool was broken. Scott said he would go outside and see if he could fix it. At around 9pm he went into the backyard, flashlight in hand. When he looked at the filter, Scott noticed part of it was rusty. He grabbed his hunting knife to try to dislodge it, but it was stuck. By 9:30 or so, he decided it was too dark to get anything done, so he went back inside where Yarmila was asleep on the living room couch. Scott woke her up, gave her a kiss, and said he'd try again with the filter the following day. Then he headed upstairs, changed into his pajamas and was asleep by 10. But Scott didn't stay in bed for long. Around 10:30, Scott and Yarmila's neighbors Greg Coons and Stephanie Readhead heard some strange noises coming from their yard. It sounded like faint moaning. Then Stephanie thought she heard a woman say something like please help or please stop. Greg and Stephanie were friendly with the fellators and wanted to make sure everything was okay. So Greg went outside to investigate. He stood on a planter and peered over the concrete fence between his house and the fellators. It was pretty dark outside, but Grey could see a woman lying on her side several feet from the fellators. She was groaning and moving just a little. Greg didn't recognize her and figured she must have drunkenly stumbled onto the fellators property. But then a light went on inside the fellators house. Greg spotted someone moving in a second floor window. His eyesight wasn't great and he could only make out their silhouette. But he watched as they entered the kitchen where it looked like they washed their hands. Then they went out into the backyard. That's when Greg realized it was Scott in his pajamas. Greg watched as he walked over to the woman and stood over her for a few minutes, then went back inside. Soon Scott re emerged from the house through a side door wearing a pair of black gloves. He went into the garage for a moment. When he came back out, he motioned to the family dog to stay quiet as he closed the door. Scott walked back over to the woman who Greg now believed was yarmola. Scott crouched down, grabbed his wife and dragged her to the edge of the pool. Then he pushed her in. He held her head under the water until she stopped moving. Greg ran back to his house and immediately called 911. He told the dispatcher that his neighbor had thrown his wife into their pool and was holding her down. The dispatcher asked if they had been fighting. Greg said he didn't know, but that he was, quote, concerned. Shortly after, a pair of Phoenix police officers arrived. They hopped the wall between the two houses into the fellators backyard. All the lights on the property were off, but what they could see stunned them. The 911 dispatch had alluded to a possible drowning. The officers had expected to perform rescue cpr, but there was clearly something more sinister going on. Not only was an unresponsive woman floating in the pool, but the water was completely red. And that wasn't all. Officers also noticed a flashlight shining on the pool pump which was surrounded by blood. As one officer pulled Yarmula out of the pool, another searched the Premises. He went into the garage and found a blood stained t shirt hanging out of the trunk of the fellator's parked Volvo. When he opened the trunk, he saw a plastic container full of more blood soaked clothing, including jeans, socks and an undershirt. There was also a garbage bag with bloodstained gloves and leather boots inside and a hunting knife. It was clear that something gruesome had happened at the falator home earlier that night. And back outside, his partner realized the same thing. As he looked more closely at Yarmila, it became obvious that she hadn't just been drowned. She was also covered in stab wounds. The officer checked for a pulse. He couldn't find one. Yarmila was declared dead at the scene. But where was her killer? Soon, the other officer joined his colleague by the pool and a light flickered on inside the house. Through a window, the officer saw Scott walking slowly down the stairs. His demeanor was odd, slow and measured. Not the typical body language of someone who had just killed their wife. The officers rushed inside. Through a sliding glass door which had been left ajar. They noticed a pebble at the foot of the staircase. It looked just like the ones around the pool and it was smeared with blood. Clearly, the killer had been inside the house and the officers believe that person was walking right toward them. They pointed their guns at Scott and told him not to move. He had a blank expression on his face, which flashed to surprise, then fear. Before he could do anything, the officers ordered him to the ground. Scott did as he was told. At the same time, he asked the officers what was going on and why they were in his house. He seemed genuinely confused, which made the officers wonder if they had the wrong man or if he was playing dumb. More importantly, they needed to know if anyone else was hurt. They asked Scott how many people were in the house. He told them there were four, including himself, his wife, and their two children. At that point, Scott seemed to realize that someone was hurt. He begged the officers to make sure they were okay. He claimed that everyone should be in their bedrooms, but that he didn't know for sure because he had been asleep since about 10pm and just woke up. To the officers, Scott's behavior was beyond strange. They were used to suspects being argumentative and defensive, but Scott seemed genuinely worried and confused. Still, with all signs pointing to him as his wife's killer, Scott was put in handcuffs and escorted out of the house through the back door. He still didn't know where his family was, but by now backup had arrived and he could see more police gathered near the pool. No one was telling him anything. He felt groggy, like he was still dreaming. But he could make out some of the officer's hushed conversations. That's how he pieced together that Yarmula was somewhere in the backyard and she was hurt. Soon he was at the station, being led to an interrogation room. Scott knew something was seriously wrong, but the panic didn't set in until he realized which unit he was in. The sign above the door read Homicide. Close your eyes.

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[Carter Roy]

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[Carter Roy]

Terms apply. Hey, it's Carter. If you are enjoying murder true crime stories, there's a new crime house show for you to check out. It's called the Final Hours, and it's hosted by Sarah Turney and Courtney Nicole. Sarah is an advocate for missing and murdered victims whose sister disappeared in 2001. And Courtney is a true crime storyteller and investigator who witnessed firsthand how crime can change a family forever. Together, they bring lived experience to every case, looking not only at what happened, but what led up to it. Each episode examines the moments just before a person disappears. The routines, the timelines, and the small details that often get overlooked. Because every disappearance has a moment where everything still feels normal. A text that doesn't raise concern. A routine that goes unchanged, A door that closes just like it always has. Until it doesn't. The final hours puts those moments under a microscope. Because when it comes to justice, there's no such thing as over analyzing. Listen to and follow the final hours on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or Wherever you listen. New episodes every Monday. On the night of January 16, 1997, 41 year old Scott Filleder was arrested in Phoenix, Arizona on suspicion of murdering his wife of 20 years, Yarmula. When he sat down in the interrogation room across from Detective John Norman, Scott placed his head in his hands and began to cry. Detective Norman didn't react. Instead, he read Scott his Miranda rights, which Scott waved. Then Norman assured Scott that his two children, 17 year old Megan and 12 year old Michael were okay, before asking him to explain what happened that night. Scott was hunched over and visibly upset as he told the detective he couldn't remember. Norman pressed harder, but all Scott told him was how much he loved his wife. Detective Norman thought Scott was intentionally avoiding the question. So he explained how Greg Coons said he saw Scott drown Yarmila. Norman also listed all the evidence the officers had found at the scene. And finally he explained that Yarmula was found covered in stab wounds and that the pool had been filled with blood. Scott froze. He knew his neighbor wouldn't lie, but he still insisted that he didn't remember anything. Since Norman wasn't getting anywhere, he shifted his line of questioning. He asked Scott why there was blood on his neck as well as a fresh cut on his hand with a band aid on it. Scott looked at his hand, then touched his neck. He looked surprised and told Norman he didn't know any of that was there until now. This only made Norman more suspicious. At the same time, Scott didn't deny killing Yarmila. He just couldn't give Norman any information about what led up to the murder or tell him anything else about how it happened. Eventually, Detective Norman gave up. If Scott didn't want to talk, it didn't matter because Norman was certain of what he did. He led Scott to a cell. Shortly after, the medical examiner concluded that Yarmila's official cause of death was, quote, multiple stab wounds with drowning. In total, she had sustained 44 stab wounds. Investigators charged Scott with first degree murder. If convicted, he'd be facing the death penalty. When news spread of Scott's arrest, his family and friends were as shocked as he was. Everyone knew him as a devoted, God fearing family man who made an honest living. Not to mention they knew how in love he and Yarmila had been. It didn't make sense that he would kill her. No one seemed more certain of Scott's innocence than his children, Megan and Michael. Police had ushered Megan and Michael out of their home on the night their mother died and made sure they didn't see her body. But they still heard about all the gruesome details. And no part of them believed their father father was capable of such violence. Scott's children stayed with loved ones while he was behind bars. And they visited him faithfully while he awaited trial. For two years they were even there one day in 1999 when reporters came to the prison to talk to Scott. The interview aired on 2020 and it was the first time the public heard Scott's explanation for what happened. He said he didn't mean to kill his wife because he was sleepwalking when he did it. The public had mixed reactions to the interview. Some didn't trust him and were sure he was lying. Others were sympathetic. They thought he was a victim too. Wherever people fell, one thing was certain. Scott's trial was sure to make waves. And when he stepped into the courtroom in May of 1999, it was clear that this case was unlike any other. On the stand, 43 year old Scott stuck by his story. He killed his wife while sleepwalking. He said he didn't mean to do it and had no memory of it. The prosecutor, Juan Martinez, wasn't buying it. He believed Scott was wide awake when he killed his wife and that he was only pretending he didn't remember it. According to Martinez, at around 10pm on the night of January 16, 1997, Scott attacked Yarmila with his hunting knife in their backyard. He used one arm to muffle her screams and the other to stab her 44 times. Martinez said that after that, Scott stashed all the evidence in his Volvo, which is why his clothes were clean by the time the police arrived. After recounting what happened that night, Martinez called the fellators neighbor Greg Coons to the stand. Greg laid out everything he witnessed that night, from seeing Yarmila writhing in the yard to Scott standing silently over her and eventually pushing her into the pool. Greg also explained that he called 911 after Scott began holding Yarmila's head underwater. But there was one thing Greg couldn't explain. Why he watched this scene play out for so long before doing something about it. The defense suggested Yarmula would have had a better chance at survival if Greg had tried to stop Scott. At the same time, the prosecution wondered if Greg was in shock or if he didn't want to put himself in harm's way. Despite all these possibilities, Greg had no explanation. And while his testimony may have raised a lot of questions, it also sharpened the image of Scott's calculated, methodical killing. He laid out details like how Scott seemed to be washing his hands in the kitchen, put on a pair of gloves, and even told his dog to be quiet, all before drowning his wife. After Greg spoke, Juan Martinez called a sleeping expert to the stand. They explained that based on what Greg had described, Scott must have been awake. According to the expert, Scott performed at least 65 actions that were uncommon for a sleepwalker. They said that some of Scott's actions required fine motor skills that simply weren't characteristic of sleepwalking. This included quieting the dog, changing his clothes, stashing the evidence, and applying a band aid. The experts also claim that even if Scott had started out asleep, his wife's cries or the freezing cold pool water probably would have woken him up. By that point, it seemed clear that Scott had in fact killed Yarmila. But the prosecution still couldn't come up with a strong potential motive. Still, Martinez tried his best to convince the jury that Scott and Yarmola's marriage had been struggling leading up to her death. He explained that Yarmila wasn't wearing her wedding ring when officers pulled her body from the pool. This alone wasn't that alarming. People take off their wedding rings all the time. But then Martinez called one of Scott's former colleagues to the stand, who claimed that Scott had once complained about Yarmila's appearance. However, when the defense pushed further, Scott's colleague admitted things were being taken out of context. In reality, Scott had said that even if Yarmila wasn't considered conventionally attractive by some, he thought she was beautiful. And just like that, it all circled back to whether Scott wanted to kill his wife. When Scott's attorney, Michael Kimmerer, took the floor, he detailed Scott's long and troubling history with sleepwalking. Scott's mother and sister testified about the aggression and violence Scott displayed during his sleepwalking episodes when he was younger. They said they knew he never meant to behave that way and that he never remembered the things he did. Based on their claims, Kimmerer argued that Scott did murder his wife, but that he truly didn't mean to. He was asleep the entire time and only woke up when officers shouted at him from the bottom of the staircase. And Kimmerer had an expert witness of his own who could bolster that argument, a psychologist named Dr. Janet Tatman. According to Dr. Tatman, Scott's actions that night actually did fit the profile of a sleepwalker, especially since there was more to the story. The whole timeline involved Scott trying to fix the pool filter before he went to bed. The altercation between him And Yarmila broke out almost immediately after he entered a sleepwalking state. But according to Dr. Tatman, Scott likely entered the sleepwalking state, then went back outside to try to fix the filter again. Just like when he was awake, he used his hunting knife to try to loosen the rusty piece of equipment. And just like before, he gave up. At some point, Yarmula woke up and noticed her husband wasn't in bed. She probably heard him outside, so she went downstairs to check on him. But when she approached him, Scott became frightened and attacked her. Tatman explained that sudden confrontations can trigger violent episodes in sleepwalkers, and Scott wasn't the only person to lash out like this while unconscious. Kimmerer explained that about 12 years earlier, in 1987, a Canadian man named Kenneth Parks had killed his mother in law and attacked his father in law while sleepwalking, then turned himself in. Parks was eventually acquitted. Kimmerer wasn't just telling the story. To garner sympathy for Scott, he actually called in one of the experts from the Parks case. Dr. Roger Broughton testified on Scott's behalf. Broughton said many sleepwalkers can perform coordinated and complex actions. He gave examples of sleepwalkers who climbed onto rooftops without losing their balance. According to Dr. Broughton, Scott's behavior was even simpler. Many sleepwalkers are known to navigate familiar spaces, avoiding furniture and other obstacles. So Scott telling his dog to keep quiet also wasn't unusual. Dr. Broughton even had an explanation for why Scott stashed everything in the trunk of his Volvo. He wasn't hiding evidence. He was going through another set of familiar motions. His kids said he regularly kept his work clothes and tools in the trunk. Dr. Broughton was definitely convincing. But Scott's lawyers seemed to realize his testimony wouldn't matter unless they believed Scott really was asleep when he killed Yarmila. So they called neuroscientist and professor Dr. Rosalind Cartwright to the stand. She explained that sleepwalkers possess a genetic defect in the brain that affects the transition from deep sleep into dreaming sleep. Apparently, both of Scott's children were known to possess this traitor. In a way, the defense was implying that Scott's actions on the night of his wife's death were inevitable. Like there was a glitch inside of him that was always going to lead him down this dark path. After listening to everyone pick apart his brain for nearly a month, it was finally Scott's turn to speak. He addressed the court on June 16, 1999. He began by saying he understood the jury's dilemma. He said that initially, even he Questioned the sleepwalking defense. He kept thinking that maybe Yarmula had died because of a burglary gone wrong. But with no evidence for that explanation, he had to accept reality. Which was why he'd volunteered to do something called a polysomnogram. Also known as a sleep study. The test measured Scott's brain waves and muscle action over four nights of sleep. It was his way of proving to himself whether he had really killed Yarmula in his sleep. Scott's test results showed reduced slow wave activity, which meant his brain wasn't getting as much deep sleep as it should. At the time of Yarmila's death, he was losing sleep because of his stress at work. That made his brain more unstable at night and more likely to slip into a sleepwalking episode. In addition to his sleep study results, Scott said he'd been diagnosed with something known as non insane automatism. This is a state of sleep in which a person has no control over their actions. Once Scott learned these things about himself, it was like he woke up and saw the truth of what happened to his wife. In the end, Scott's grief was all he had left to him. All the scientific jargon and diagnoses were beside the point. He expressed his utter devastation at the loss of his wife and said her murder would haunt him forever. He loved Yarmila more than anything, and he didn't know what to do without her. His eyes were filled with tears as he described dreaming about her every night. He hurt for his children, too, who would now have to grow up without a mother and possibly without a father. As he spoke, Scott looked at his children from the stand. He begged the judge and the jury to let him reunite with them. After Scott delivered his emotional testimony, it was time for jurors to decide his fate. On June 25, 1999, after six weeks of testimony, the jury convened for eight hours. In the end, Scott's emotional outpouring couldn't change his fate. He was found guilty of first degree murder. The verdict wasn't a surprise, but what happened next was. Apparently, the judge had received dozens of letters over the last few weeks. Scott and Yarmila's friends, family, and congregation had written about his good character. Yarmula's mom even asked that his life be spared. But it was Megan and Michael's letters that influenced the judge the most. They begged to save their father's life. Thanks to them, Scott avoided the death penalty and was sentenced to life without parole. Over the years, Scott's lawyers have filed multiple appeals, and they argued that new developments in sleep science could offer more proof that Scott had no control over his actions. But it seems like the courts still think Scott is a danger to society. Every request for an appeal has been denied. Today, Scott remains at the Yuma Prison complex in San Luis, Arizona, where he teaches professional development courses to fellow inmates. He even created a program that helps incarcerated people prepare for reintegration into society. Meanwhile, Michael and Megan have gone on to lead fulfilling lives. Megan is a respected historian serving as an awards chair for a well known historical association. Michael is a successful attorney in Nevada. Michael has spoken to the press a few times expressing how much he misses his mother. He says he wishes she could be with the family today and that she could have met his own children. The case of Scott Flater is a haunting one. It forces us to consider what our own minds are capable of. If it's true that Scott was asleep when he killed his wife, it means that the boundary between our waking selves and our unconscious minds might be thinner than we ever believed. Or that monsters can exist anywhere, whether we realize it or not. Thanks so much for listening. I'm Carter Roy and this is Murder True Crime Stories. Thanks again to my guest Payne Lindsay for joining me and remember, coming up we have our extended conversation Murder True Crime Stories is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on social media, rimehouse on TikTok and Instagram. Don't forget to rate, review and follow True Crime Stories wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference. And to enhance your True Crime Stories listening experience, subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode early and ad free. Will be back on Tuesday. True Crime Stories is hosted by me, Carter Roy and is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. This episode was brought to life by the Murder True Crime Stories team. Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Natalie Pertovsky, Lori Marinelli, Emma Lehman, Sarah Camp and Russell Nash. Thank you for listening. Thanks again for listening to today's episode. As promised, Payne and I are going to discuss the case a little bit more in depth and get into why this one has left such an imprint on both of us. Yeah, so before we dive into sort of the legal side of the case, have you ever experienced sleepwalking or know someone who has? And if so, does it? It feels scary.

[Payne Lindsay]

I mean thankfully I have not slept walk at least that I Know of. No one's told me. I have. I have had a couple weird things happen. I mean, are you familiar with sleep paralysis?

[Carter Roy]

Yes.

[Payne Lindsay]

And that kind of thing?

[Carter Roy]

Yes.

[Payne Lindsay]

So I've never had the traditional sleep paralysis, but there was a couple of times this happened where I was really stressed and tired and hadn't slept in a long time. And I laid down to go to sleep one night, all of a sudden, I heard what sounded audibly to me like the loudest train horn I've ever heard inside the room. It was an actual auditory thing. And I snapped out of bed. I was like, oh, my God. Terrified me. Went back to sleep again, happened again. I literally didn't sleep the whole night because I was terrified of that sound happening to me again. I ended up looking it up later. And I think it's called exploding head syndrome.

[Carter Roy]

What?

[Payne Lindsay]

And it's this thing where sometimes when you fall asleep, or right before you fall asleep, you'll hear some kind of really loud noise and your brain interprets it as real. And I also read that one of the ways to prevent it is to not sleep on your back or something, which is how I preferred to sleep. So for a long time, I was really terrified to sleep on my back. I do now. But if I ever feel myself in that really tired state and I'm on my back, it was honestly so terrifying that I don't ever want to experience it again. And I'll sleep on my side forever if I have to. Wow.

[Carter Roy]

Right? Right. Really? Yeah. Kind of got to your traumatic. I mean, I. This is so small potatoes, but so funny. Happened today. I was awake. I had a dream about. I don't know, it was like, some bugs, and it wasn't a bad dream. It was like, oh, this is interesting. And then in the dream, I was outside walking around, I looked down at a bug on my arm, and I was like, ugh. You know, and so, like, in the dream, I'm starting to push away. I realized that my cat had just been sleeping by my side, and I'd fully knocked him, you know, like, in my, like, get off of me, bug. I'd fully hit him because he's looking at me like, what, dude? Why did you just swat me? And, you know, obviously it's not a big deal. He's fine. Like, but you're like, oh, that's not even sleepwalking. That's just a tiny thing. But it shows. Like, your mind thinks you're doing one thing perfectly capable of doing something that you don't feel responsible for.

[Payne Lindsay]

Right. You were probably already having a weird dream, and then your cat nicked your arm a little bit, and then that became a part of your dream, and now you have these bugs, and then you see the bug. Your cat probably touched you again, and then you, oh, wake up. Oh, that's a weird series of events.

[Carter Roy]

Totally. And that's, you know, can happen anytime. And then if you think about in Scott's case, he's, like, stressed, exhausted, has been leading up to the murder. And I mean, how much do you think that that probably plays a part, like the lack of. Of sleep and exhaustion in that state?

[Payne Lindsay]

I mean, I guess, really. And I think this is probably how it played out in trial, too. I mean, at least in the court of public opinion. Is. Is he just saying this, or did he really not remember doing this? Either one is concerning. Right. If this was premeditated and he killed his wife, I mean, he did.

[Carter Roy]

That's.

[Payne Lindsay]

That's the thing. He did kill his wife. We know that. So it's. Did he intend to? And then it kind of opens the conversation more like, existentially.

[Carter Roy]

Like, if.

[Payne Lindsay]

If someone didn't intend to do something, is it the same thing? But then on the other side of the coin, if someone's capable of killing people when they're sleeping, that's not really safe for everybody, either. Or anyone.

[Carter Roy]

Yeah. I mean, I think of you being like, okay, I can't sleep on my back if this is what's going to happen. Be like, yeah, well, if you're going to kill somebody, probably shouldn't be maybe sleeping in public. Right. There's that question.

[Payne Lindsay]

Right? Like, yeah, I mean, do we. Does he get out of prison and get a new wife and does that happen again? I mean, that, like, truly, it's totally.

[Carter Roy]

Like, if you can't control it and it does. Like, it's like, oh, it might change how I feel about how I think of him. Like a premeditated murder versus an accident of that kind. It's like, oh, I feel differently. But societally, are the consequences that different of, like, oh, is this person a danger to society? And clearly, yes, you know, this did happen, regardless of what event. And if you were sitting on the jury now that you know everything. Yeah. What. What do you think you would have done?

[Payne Lindsay]

I mean, it's tough. I mean, if I try to imagine. I mean, this is a horrible imagination here. But if I tried to imagine myself in his shoes where I did something that awful and I really didn't know I did that, and I did it to someone, I Loved. I would feel so terrible about that. It would just be the worst. And then to be punished for it again and ruin my life too, you know, my life would already be ruined and now I'm just behind bars too. Yeah, it's tough because the moral side of me wants to feel a little bit bad for him if in fact it's true that he didn't know he did this and it's some freak incident. But at the same time, that's a dangerous condition he has. And I don't know if that enters the realm of some sort of psychiatric medical diagnosis.

[Carter Roy]

Probably.

[Payne Lindsay]

And maybe that would play differently today in 2026, but either way, he's capable of killing his wife and not knowing it. So.

[Carter Roy]

Right.

[Payne Lindsay]

What else?

[Carter Roy]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's premeditated and then there's not knowing. Like, oh, how much better is it to not know you're doing it but still do it? Yeah. And I mean, I found it fascinating the, you know, what the neighbor sees, you know, it's like. And again, I'm not an expert, I know very little about it. So it's not like I know, but it's so. I can imagine, like, okay, maybe there's a sleepwalking scenario. And like, clearly has some history of maybe acting. It seems that his system is maybe suppressing some things from childhood. So the violence comes out then. But then the, like, the putting clothes in the car, the meticulous nature of the aftermath, you're like, can you really sleep through all of that? Is there a moment? Is it possible that he was sleepwalking and then was like, oh, no, what have I done? Now I want to cover it up even though I didn't premeditate. And like, that line is so blurry. It gets so hard to feel what one should feel. Right about. Right.

[Payne Lindsay]

I mean, when I think of sleepwalking as a non expert on this, I think of waking up in the middle of the night and going to the fridge and grabbing something to eat or something. And even that being a bizarre series of events of knowing how to get there. And am I seeing things consciously and registering that or is it more of a. I remember how to get there because I do it all the time, from my bed to the refrigerator. The whole going outside and basically committing a murder and going through the act of cleaning things up. That's just. That's a lot of steps, whether you're sleepwalking or not.

[Carter Roy]

Completely. No. And I find it fascinating that like, right. The experts, you know, obviously the prosecution is like, yeah, that's outside the zone of like, oh, I just accidentally went to this fridge to get a sandwich. And then others are like, well, if it's putting clothes away, you know, I guess it goes to like, how deep the condition kind of goes. Which I think kind of back to your point, it's like, well, if it goes that deeply that you can do that many things without knowing that's a real danger. If someone's just like, I might. That's essentially like, well, I could just black out for an extended period of time and operate and how responsible I am for those actions in there.

[Payne Lindsay]

I mean, if this were to happen to a loved one of mine, I would not accept the idea of, oh, he didn't mean to, so let's just drop it. You know what I mean? It's okay. Just because you didn't mean to, you still did and you're still capable of doing it probably again, especially if you didn't mean to.

[Carter Roy]

I know. And I, I, you know, I feel so much for his kids too, who I know are, you know, out in the world and, and have to live with it both. Because, you know, it's like, wow, if he really didn't, you know, if it was an accident, like, they lost their mother and their father and their family in one night. And at the same time, you can't, you can't. Yeah. Look away from what he did and be like, oh, well, for the sake of the kids, we let him go. And yeah, to your point, is he, Is he. What danger is he posed still? Especially if the, if the condition is a suppression that leads to it, like, well, now it's going to be suppressed. There's even more. Yeah.

[Payne Lindsay]

And I know it's a real thing. I've seen videos of people who have confirmed sleepwalking disorders. I mean, I've seen them on TikTok and stuff where they'll post a night vision camera of themselves walking around at night doing weird things, nothing violent, but stuff that they don't recall in the morning.

[Carter Roy]

You know, I think for me, I'd be curious your thoughts. Like, I sort of feel like the. Certainly taking the death penalty off seemed reasonable in case he really was sleepwalking. It's like, okay, you're in prison, you know, a murder has been committed. We're not letting somebody get away with it. But a little bit of an a. Middle ground maybe, right?

[Payne Lindsay]

I mean, try to find like a more benign analogy for this. Let's say that I was driving a car sober and I swerved to not hit a deer and then I accidentally hit a pedestrian and they died. That would be a mistake on my part. I did that. I didn't mean to do that. And there was nothing I did illegal to have influenced me. A little bit cleaner of a scenario there, but to go murder someone is a completely different ballpark.

[Carter Roy]

Yeah, totally. You're not swerving from a deer and

[Payne Lindsay]

pulling out a knife like one's an accident. And you can understand how that could have accidentally happened even though I was the cause of the death accidentally. This, you know, murder is rarely an accident. Or is it ever an accident?

[Carter Roy]

That is, I think, the very heart of this case that, you know, every listener will have to grapple with on their own and. Well, thank you so much, Payne, for joining today and coming on the show and giving us some insights and being a part of this case.

[Payne Lindsay]

Of course. Hopefully you don't have any sleepwalking incidents anytime soon. And let me know if you have any more bug stories.

[Carter Roy]

I will. Yeah, keep those train noises quiet. Lay on the side. And if today's conversation got you thinking, you'll definitely want to check out up and Vanished. Payne takes a deep investigative approach to cold cases, often uncovering new details and perspectives along the way. You can follow it wherever you get your podcasts.

[Payne Lindsay]

Thanks, Carter. I had a great time, man.

[Carter Roy]

Thank you. Hi, it's Carter. If you love Murder True Crime Stories, check out the new Crime House original about Disappearances, the Final Hours hosted by Sarah Turney and quote Courtney Nicole. Listen and follow the final hours on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes drop every Monday.