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- [00:01]
Vanessa Richardson
Hi there, it's Vanessa Richardson. Crime House is your go to destination for the most gripping true crime shows. On my show, Killer Minds, join me and forensic psychologist Dr. Tristan Engels for two new episodes as we dive into the twisted story of the doctor Death serial killer Michael Swango. Craving more deep dives into the minds of the world's most dangerous killers. Follow Killer Minds on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you listen.
- [00:41]
Carter Roy
This is Crime House. For so many people, nature is a sanctuary. Out in the woods. There are no clocks, no crowds, no traffic jams or deadlines. But the outdoors isn't just a place to disconnect, it also offers a chance to reconnect. That's exactly what Julie Williams and Lolli Winans were looking for in the spring of 1996 when they headed to Shenandoah National Park. 200,000 acres of trails, waterfalls and quiet tucked into the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia. It was their last hurrah before the summer and they wanted to make the most of it, to let loose, enjoy each other's and bask in the beautiful landscape. Instead, they found a forest full of horrors. And what was once their sanctuary turned into a nightmare. People's lives are like a story. There's a beginning, a middle and an end. But you don't always know which part you're on. Sometimes the final chapter arrives far too soon and we don't always get to know the real ending. I'm Carter Roy and this is True Crime Stories, a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios that comes out every Tuesday. And I've got some exciting news. We've heard your feedback. You want more Murder True crime stories? Starting July 29th, we'll be releasing twice a week, with part one of a story releasing every Tuesday and part two every Thursday. @ Crime House, we want to express our gratitude to you, our community, for making this possible. Please support us by rating, reviewing and following Murder True Crime Stories wherever you get your podcasts and to enhance your Murder True Crime Stories listening experience, subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get ad free listening, early access to every two part series, and exciting bonus content. This is the first of two episodes on the 1996 murders of Julie Williams and Lolly Winans. It was a case that shocked the nation, raised urgent questions about safety in national parks, and remained unsolved for nearly 30 years. Today, I'll introduce you to Julie and Lolly. I'll explain who they were, what brought them to Shenandoah national park that spring, and how Their relaxing getaway was cut short when they were discovered at a remote campsite, brutally murdered. Next time, I'll follow the theories, the suspects, and the missteps of the initial investigation. I'll explore why justice was so hard to reach and what the years without answers meant for the communities Julie and Lally left behind. All that and more coming up.
- [04:11]
Unknown
Thanks for selling your car to Carvana. Here's your check.
- [04:14]
Carter Roy
Whoa. When did I get here?
- [04:15]
Unknown
What do you mean?
- [04:16]
Carter Roy
I swear it was just moments ago that I accepted a great offer from Carvana online. I must have time traveled to the future.
- [04:22]
Unknown
It was just moments ago. Same day pickup. Here's your check for that great offer.
- [04:26]
Carter Roy
It is the future.
- [04:28]
Unknown
It's. It's the present. And just the convenience of Carvana. Sorry to blow your mind.
- [04:32]
Carter Roy
It's all good. Happens all the time.
- [04:35]
Unknown
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- [05:21]
Carter Roy
Julie Williams was always happiest in the outdoors. Tall and lanky, with cropped brown hair, wire rimmed glasses, and a beaming smile that could light up a trailhead. Born In St. Cloud, Minnesota in February 1969, Julie had a deep connection to nature that could be traced back to her childhood. St. Cloud was a city mostly known for its agricultural industry and many granite quarries. It was probably where Julie first became interested in geology. Even as a teenager, while other girls were thinking about boys and makeup, Julie was thinking about the massive cliffs looming above her. That wasn't her only interest, though. She was also a competitive tennis player who'd won state titles. As if that weren't enough, Julie also made time to volunteer at a women's shelter. Still, throughout it all, the rocks kept calling to her. So after graduating High School in 1987, 18 year old Julie headed to Carleton College in Northfield, Minnesota, about two hours south of home. It wasn't long until she'd made a name for Herself in the geology department, Julie loved the tight knit community she'd become a part of. But she was also impatient. She wanted to get out of the classroom and test her skills in the real world. In the summer of 1993, 21 year old Julie got her wish. As part of her curriculum, she traveled to Greek Macedonia. There, she and her fellow students studied the environment. For six hours a day, Julie charted river sediments, carefully describing each layer. Despite the oppressive heat, Julie thrived in the field. And even after work was done, the adventure continued. According to her friends in the program, Julie would spend her evening zooming around the city on a motorcycle. And luckily for her, the excitement didn't end there. After Greece, Julie and her peers traveled to the Dolomite mountains of Northern Italy. As always, Julie made the most of her time studying fossils and falling in love with the alpine landscape. When her time abroad came to an end that fall, Julie went back to the US to finish her degree. But after seeing so much of the world, she was probably anxious for her next adventure. To keep herself busy, Julie threw herself into her extracurriculars. She picked up Spanish, worked with migrants and survivors of abuse. And when the school year ended in 1994, 22 year old Julie graduated summa cum laude. From the outside looking in, it seemed like Julie had everything going for her. Not only was she smart, caring and empathetic, she also projected a sense of unshakable confidence. But in reality, Julie was just like any other young person. And she was struggling to figure out who she was and what she wanted to do with her life. Ever since coming back from Europe, Julie had been questioning her choices. She'd started wondering if she was making a mistake in pursuing geology. She had a speech impediment. It was so small that most people didn't notice it, but Julie worried it would make communicating at work difficult. But more than that, Julie was at a crossroads when it came to her identity. Her whole life, Julie had dated men. Recently, though she'd come to realize she was also drawn to women. It was confusing, especially because she was a devout Christian. She just didn't know if her sexual orientation could coexist alongside her religion. So after graduation, Julie decided to explore her feelings further. She moved to Richmond, Vermont, a small town of only 4,000 people. From what Julie knew about Richmond, it was a queer friendly place. Somewhere she could explore her sexuality without feeling judged. Luckily, Julie had an old friend there and the two of them shared an apartment in town. Slowly but surely, things started to fall into place. Julie got a job at a bookstore about 20 minutes away and started making friends. She explored the many hiking trails in the area and learned more about herself. It was a great start, but Julie still longed for a connection to her faith. At some point, she joined the Christchurch Presbyterian, a progressive congregation on the University of Vermont campus. As she attended services, she got close to Reverend Rebecca Strader, and eventually Julie really opened up to her. She admitted that she felt lost, especially when it came to her sexuality. Whatever advice Reverend Strader gave her, it seemed like it helped Julie find her footing and decide what to do next. For Julie, that meant going back to Minnesota. That summer in 1994, she'd heard about a program called Woodswomen. The organization combined two of Julie's passions, education and adventure travel for women. It seemed like the perfect fit for Julie, a place where she could slow down, help others, and hopefully find herself along the way. She didn't know she was about to find her other half, the person who would change her life forever.
- [11:38]
Unknown
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- [12:06]
Carter Roy
Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. With the price of just about everything going up, we thought we'd bring our prices down. So to help us, we brought in a reverse auctioneer, which is apparently a thing Mint Mobile Unlimited Premium Wireless how do they get 30? 30 get 30? Better get 20, 20, 20. But to get 2020, get 15, 15, 15, 15. Just 15 bucks a month. Sold. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment.
- [12:29]
Unknown
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- [12:39]
Carter Roy
Lolly Winning's full name was Laura, but nobody called her that. She was just Lolly. She was born in Detroit, Michigan in March 1970, but raised in the town of Grosse Pointe. It was the kind of place where mansions lined the sidewalks, people spent their weekends at the yacht club, and appearances were everything. But even though Lolly came from a wealthy family, she never felt like she belonged. More than that, she resented the pressure to keep up with with the Joneses because she knew the truth, There were horrors in Grosse Pointe just like everywhere else. At some point in her childhood, Lollie was repeatedly sexually abused by an adult she trusted. We don't know who it was or at what age, but we do know the trauma it caused her was very intense. It's not surprising that by the time Lale was 18, she was desperate to leave her hometown and its many painful memories behind. After graduating from high school in 1988, Lawley enrolled in a tiny college tucked into the green hills of Vermont called Sterling. The kids back in Grosse Pointe would have been horrified. In addition to regular classes, Sterling's curriculum involved physical labor. Students built barns, shoveled manure, and took part in multi day backcountry treks. One of those treks was a five day winter survival expedition. The trip left most of the students frozen and exhausted, but not Lolly. Even when her boots were soaked through and her breath turned icy, she was smiling the whole time. She was cheering on the others, cracking jokes and singing songs. She didn't just survive the experience, she came alive in it. Because in the wilderness, Lollie felt entirely like herself. But behind all the smiles and laughter, Lolli hid a secret. Pain. Although she'd buried the sexual abuse from her childhood, it had never left her. And before long, it began to manifest in all the wrong ways. Lally struggled with alcohol and was submissive around authority figures. Eventually, all of her issues came to a head and she dropped out of Sterling. The next few years were a patchwork of jobs, relationships and restarts. At one point, Lolli was engaged to a man, but it didn't last. After that, she started going to therapy and tried to untangle the past. It was difficult to relive those experiences, but it seemed to give her some clarity. By 1994, 24 year old Lally had a better idea of what she wanted her future to look like. And she knew it would involve the great outdoors. That year she headed to Maine, where she enrolled at a small university called Unity College. There she trained to become a wilderness guide. The work was hard and Lolly threw herself into it because she didn't just want to heal herself through nature, she wanted to help others do the same. That's what led her to Woodswomen, the outdoor education nonprofit in Minnesota. In the summer of 1994, Lollie landed a summer internship there alongside 22 year old Julie Williams. Julie and Lollie were right at home at Woodswomen. It was a place for all women, but was especially inclusive when it came to the queer community, which was rare in the 90s, Julie and Lollie spent their days climbing rock faces in the forest, paddling canoes across glassy lakes, and training to lead wilderness trips. One night, after a long day outside, they found themselves sharing a tent with another woman from the program. But inside that small nylon cocoon, it was like Julie and Lolli were the only two people in the world. They stayed up all night laughing so hard they had to bury their faces in their sleeping bags. Before they knew it, the sun was rising and neither of them had slept a wink. In Lollie's mind, they were clearly flirting. In the past few years, since breaking off her engagement, she'd realized she was bisexual. So when she'd leaned in and whispered with Julie all night long, she was sending a message that she was interested. But Julie took a little longer to process that there might be something more between them. At first, she just thought she'd found a friend who saw her. Someone who made her laugh in a way that felt effortless. But sometime in the early morning hours or in the days that followed, the truth finally hit her. She liked Lollie. They started dating later that summer. But neither of them had been in a relationship with a woman before, and they wanted to take things slow. It felt like stepping onto a trail without a map. But they were willing to figure it out together. When the summer ended, they didn't let distance get in the way. They visited each other on the weekends, driving back and forth between Vermont and Maine. On those trips, they'd often head into the backcountry to camp. But these excursions weren't just about getting out into nature. They were also about spending time together, away from prying eyes. Because, unfortunately, back in the real world, there were still complications. Lalli and Julie weren't sure how public they should be about their relationship. Lolli was more comfortable with the idea. She didn't shout about her identity, but she didn't shy away from it either. Her closest friends all knew about Julie. Julie, on the other hand, felt more weighed down. She was still grappling with the teachings of her faith. In particular, she didn't know if she could tell her parents she was gay. She believed they'd accept her, but she didn't want to burden them or risk disappointing them. So for a while, she kept her relationship with Lally close to her chest. All Julie knew was that she was happy and madly in love. She didn't want anything to ruin that. For the next year and a half or so, Julie and Lally continued to be long distance. But things were getting more serious, and they were tired of the constant traveling. By the spring of 1996, they made a decision. They were going to move in together. Julie, who was now 24, still hadn't told her parents that 26 year old Lollie was more than a friend. But she promised herself she would get to that soon. In the meantime, she and Lolli found a home in Huntington, Vermont, one town over from Julie's current spot in Richmond. At night, lying in bed together, the two made plans for the summer. Barbecues with friends, hiking trips, lazy weekends exploring the backcountry. Plus, Julie had just landed a new job that started on June 1st. She knew her schedule was about to get a whole lot busier and she wanted to celebrate with one last trip. After thinking it over, she and Lally decided on Shenandoah National Park, a sprawling wilderness along the Blue Ridge Mountain in Virginia. In May, they packed up their gear and headed out. They told friends they'd be home by the end of the month. Julie had her first day of work and Lolly had a friend's wedding to attend. Tragically, they wouldn't make it to either.
- [21:12]
Unknown
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- [21:41]
Carter Roy
Did it occur to you that he charmed you in any way? Yes, it did. But he was a charming man. It looks like the ingredients of a really grand spy story because this ties together the Cold War with the new one. I often ask myself now, did I know the true Jan at all? Listen to Hot Money, Agent of Chaos wherever you get your podcasts. In the spring of 1996, 24 year old Julie Williams and 26 year old Lolli Winans set off for Shenandoah national park over Memorial Day weekend. They left on May 19th and plan to return home to Vermont by the 28th. Lally brought her golden retriever, Taj along for the adventure. The trio made their first stop at Pinnacles Overlook along Skyline Drive. It was a popular tourist destination with sweeping views and a great starting point for their hike. From the road, they could see nearly all of the trails sprawling out in every direction. They decided on one called White Oak Canyon Trail. After parking the car, they donned their heavy backpacks and descended into the backcountry. For two days, Julie and Lally soaked in the awe inspiring landscapes around them, enjoying the peace and quiet. But the whole time it was raining and eventually the ground turned into heavy mud. It made walking and pitching a tent difficult. So by May 21, they were forced to change course. That day, they cut a ride with a park ranger back to the main campsite where they waited out the storm. When the skies cleared, they set off again. This time they went to Hawksbill Mountain, the highest peak in Shenandoah. They summited later that day, took in the staggering view and descended back toward the Appalachian Trail. Before nightfall, they found a quiet spot beside a stream tucked away from the main trail. They pitched their tent in a grove of trees and eventually drifted off to sleep. Despite the bad weather, it seemed like Julie and Lally's trip was everything they could have wanted. At least their friends and family hoped that was the case. They were all eager to hear how it had gone. But there was one problem. May 28th came and went. And Julie and Lally weren't back yet. At first their loved ones thought maybe they'd just extended their adventure. But when they still hadn't heard from them two days later, they knew something was wrong. It wasn't like Julie and Lally to go mia. More than that, they both had important events that they'd never miss. So on May 31, one of Julie's friends contacted her dad, Thomas Williams. She told him Julie was missing. Minutes later, Thomas was on the phone with the Park Service. Rangers quickly jumped into action scouring Shenandoah. Before long, they found Julie and Lally's car parked along the touristy Skyline Drive. It was an important discovery, but it didn't bring them any closer to the women. They could have hiked in any direction from there. A day into the search, on June 1, Rangers spotted their dog Taj wandering near the main trail. He was unharmed, but not wearing a leash. The rangers figured Lollie and Julie must be nearby. They fanned out, peering between the trees and calling Julie and Lollies names. Finally, two of them spotted a flash of blue and yellow. It was a tent. The ranger slowly approached it, shouting for Julie and Lollie. But no one responded. And when the crew walked closer, they realized why they were too late. Julie and Lally were already dead. They'd been murdered. Julie and Lally's bodies were found in their campsite. One inside their tent, the other outside of it. They'd been bound and gagged with their throats slashed because the Crime took place in a national park. It fell under federal jurisdiction. The National Park Service's investigative services branch and the FBI were called in to take the lead. With help from the Virginia State Police, Julie and Lollie's loved ones were relieved the double homicide homicide was being taken seriously. At the same time, having three separate law enforcement agencies working the case also made things more complicated. With so many parties involved, sharing information was difficult and took a long time. But figuring out how to communicate with one another was only the first challenge law enforcement faced. Any crime that takes place outside is already hard to investigate, let alone one in a sprawling national park. First, there's the open landscape. Lawley and Julie's killer could have come and gone from any direction. That meant it wasn't clear where the crime scene began and where it ended. Then there's the weather. Rain, wind, and even sunshine can damage, wash, or blow away critical evidence. The fact that the weather had been bad recently didn't help. And finally, there's the people. In 1996, 1.57 million people visited Shenandoah National Park. Whoever had done this to Julie and Lally could have easily slipped through the crowds unnoticed. All in all, the authorities had a nearly impossible task ahead of them. And the more they investigated, the less likely it seemed that they'd catch a break. That became even more apparent when they looked into the park's reporting system. Lolli and Julie had been murdered less than half a mile from Skyland Resort. It was the park's largest lodging complex, packed with bars, restaurants, and more than 60 seasonal employees. Plus, it was the weekend after Memorial Day. The resort would have been filled with tourists, hikers, and families celebrating the start of summer. And yet no one had reported anything. No screams, no struggles, no suspicious cars or strangers. But just because there hadn't been any reports didn't mean no one had seen anything. A day after discovering Julie and Lally's bodies on June 2, authorities told the public about the murders. It's not clear why they waited. Maybe they didn't want to worry the other park visitors. Maybe it was because they didn't want to impede the early stages of the investigation. Either way, after 24 hours, the news broke, and the authorities asked for help finding Julian Lawley's killer. The FBI put up wanted posters throughout the park, stapled to trailheads and visitor bulletin boards. They warned campers and hikers to be cautious, and they offered a $25,000 reward to anyone who might have information. But there was another element of the story that was about to explode. One that authorities hadn't prepared for. Within days, reporters started chasing down rumors that Julie and Lolli had been more than friends, that they'd actually been a couple. Journalists called the women's friends, colleagues, even family members. Some reporters went so far as to cold call Reverend Rebecca Strader, the minister at Julie's church in Vermont. They hammered her with. With questions about Julie's sexuality that she didn't know how to answer. Julie and Lally's loved ones were torn. Some felt it wasn't their place to out the women after their deaths. If they hadn't been public about their relationship, who were they to make that decision for them? Others believed that staying silent would be a disservice to their memory or even damage the investigation. Because if Julie and Lolli were targeted for being gay, then the truth mattered. Reverend Rebecca Strader wrestled with the decision. She spoke to both gay and straight members of her congregation, seeking their guidance. She preyed on it. Meanwhile, her phone rang nonstop with reporters demanding confirmation. After nearly a week, Reverend Strader made up her mind. The consensus among her congregation was clear. Julie and Lally's identities shouldn't be hidden. They had loved each other. That love deserved to be recognized, not erased, especially if it could help investigators understand what had happened and why. So Reverend Strader confirmed it publicly. Julie and Lollie had been a couple. The revelation catapulted the case into national headlines, and before long, fear and fury spread throughout the queer community. Its members were confident the murders were a hate crime, that someone had deliberately targeted two women because of who they loved. For many, it felt like the confirmation of a nightmare they already lived with every day. That loving the wrong person in the wrong place could be fatal. Even more terrifying, the killer was still out there. It was possible that Lawley and Julie weren't their first victims. And if the search dragged on, they might not be their last. Thanks so much for listening. I'm Carter Roy, and this is True Crime Stories. Come back next week for part two on this national park murder and all the people it affected. True Crime Stories is a Crime House original. Powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on social media, Rimehouse on TikTok and Instagram. Don't forget to rate, review and follow Murder True Crime Stories. Wherever you get your podcasts, your feedback truly makes a difference. And to enhance your Murder True Crime Stories listening experience. Subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode ad free and instead of having to wait for each episode of a two part series, you'll get access to both at once plus exciting bonus content. We'll be back next Tuesday. True Crime Stories is hosted by me, Carter Roy and is a Crime House original. Powered by Pave Studios, this episode was brought to life by the Murder True Crime Stories team. Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benidon, Natalie Pertofsky, Sarah Camp, Alex Burns, Beth Johnson and Russell Nash. Thank you for listening. Foreign.
- [34:35]
Vanessa Richardson
Hi there, it's Vanessa Richardson. Crime House is your go to destination for the most gripping true crime shows on my show Killer Minds. Join me and forensic psychologist Dr. Tristan Engels for two new episodes as we dive into the twisted story of the doctor Death serial killer Michael Swan. Go craving more deep dives into the minds of the world's most dangerous killers? Follow Killer Minds on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you listen.
- [35:08]
Unknown
To.