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- [00:01]
Kaylin Moore
Hi, it's Kaylin Moore. Crime House is home to the most gripping true crime shows and you don't want to miss what's coming up on my show, Clues that I co host with Morgan Abshur. We are digging into the chilling details of Amy Archer Gilligan, a nursing home proprietor whose trail of natural deaths turned out to be anything but. Join us as we examine the evidence one clue at a time. Listen to clues every Wednesday on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to your podcasts.
- [00:37]
Carter Roy
This is Crime House. There's a long history of women and queer people seeking refuge in the great outdoors. Because the wilderness provides more than just stunning scenery, it's also an escape from the real world, where everyone has their own moral compass and their own opinions about what is and isn't acceptable. But retreating into the wild is a double edged sword. While it may provide solace and solitude, it can also leave you exposed. And no matter how prepared you might feel, you never know who or what could be hiding in the shadows, waiting to strike. In 1996, Julie Williams and Lolli Winans were found murdered at their campsite in Virginia's Shenandoah National Park. The double homicide shocked the nation and sowed fear in the queer community. That Julie and Lollie were a part of. The initial search for their killer was swift and thorough. But after decades without any progress, the investigation slowed to a standstill. Even as the headlines faded and the tips dried up, Julie and Lally's loved ones never gave up. They were determined to learn what really happened that fateful spring day. People's lives are like a story. There's a beginning, a middle, a and an end. But you don't always know which part you're on. Sometimes the final chapter arrives far too soon and we don't always get to know the real ending. I'm Carter Roy and this is True Crime Stories, a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios that comes out every Tuesday. And I've got some exciting news. We've heard your feedback. You want more Murder True crime stories? Starting July 29th, we'll be releasing twice a week with part one of a story releasing every Tuesday and part two every Thursday. @ Crime House, we want to express our gratitude to you, our community, for making this possible. Please support us by rating, reviewing and following Murder True Crime Stories wherever you get your podcasts and to enhance your Murder True Crime Stories listening experience, subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get ad free listening, early access to every two part series and exciting bonus content this is the second of two episodes on the 1996 murders of Julie Williams and Lolly Willens, a crime that reached beyond the forest where they were killed. Their deaths left a mark on their families, their communities and and the countless people who saw themselves in the couple. Last time I told you who Julie and Lally were, how they met and what drew them to Shenandoah national park, and how over Memorial Day weekend, their lives were cut short in the one place they truly felt safe. Today I'll follow the investigation. The leads and the controversial arrest that followed explain how when one suspect fell through, another emerged. How after nearly 30 years, Lolli and Julie's killer was finally identified and it changed what everyone thought they knew about the case. All that and more.
- [04:45]
Kristen Bell
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- [05:20]
Dax Shepard
Hi, I'm Kristen Bell, and if you know my husband Dax, then you also know he loves shopping for a car. Selling a car? Not so much.
- [05:26]
Carter Roy
We're really doing this, huh?
- [05:28]
Dax Shepard
Thankfully, Carvana makes it easy. Answer a few questions, put in your VIN or license and done. We sold ours in minutes this morning and they'll come pick it up and pay us this afternoon.
- [05:39]
Carter Roy
Bye bye Truckee.
- [05:40]
Dax Shepard
Of course, we kept the favorite.
- [05:44]
Carter Roy
Hello other Truckee.
- [05:45]
Dax Shepard
Sell your car with Carvana today. Terms and conditions apply.
- [05:55]
Carter Roy
Over Memorial day weekend in 1996, 24 year old Julie Williams and 26 year old Lolly Winning set off on a backpacking trip in Virginia's Shenandoah National Park. The trip was supposed to be a short escape, one final adventure before the summer got too hectic. Julie was starting a new job soon, and Lollie had a wedding to attend the first weekend of June. They told friends they'd be home by May 28, with plenty of time to spare before then. But when the day came and went without any sign of the women, their loved ones got nervous. No one had heard from Julie or Lollie about extending their trip, which was unusual. They weren't the type of people to just pick up and disappear. By May 31, three days after the women were supposed to return to Vermont, one of Julie's friends called her dad. She told him that Julie still wasn't back. He immediately called the authorities and reported her missing. Soon after, park rangers in Shenandoah launched a search. But Shenandoah is a vast tangle of forests, ridge lines, and rocky trails spanning over 200,000 acres. It took more than a day to locate them. By then, it was too late. Julie and Lally were found at their campsite, bound and gagged, with their throats slashed. It was a brutal, deliberate killing, the kind that left investigators shaken because it took place on federal land. The FBI was involved. They were joined by the Virginia state police and a specialized division of the National Park Service. Even then, the investigation was slow going. Crimes that occur in national parks are notoriously difficult to deal with. To make matters even more complicated, within days of the discovery, news spread that Julie and Lale were a couple. The revelation changed everything. Across the country, members of the queer community were outraged and terrified. Many believed the murders had been a hate crime, and they worried that whoever was responsible was gearing up for more death and destruction. These concerns weren't entirely unfounded. Investigators had already started thinking along the same lines. But proving a hate crime is nearly impossible without a confession from the perpetrator. You need to prove intent and motive to show hate, because if someone is convicted of a hate crime, the death penalty is often on the table, especially if it involves murder. But a week after Julie and Lally were found dead, detectives still didn't even have a person of interest to interrogate. At that point, the investigation kicked into high gear, and the authorities decided to search for leads close to home. They considered whether the killer might have been someone the women knew, maybe someone with a grudge or unresolved feelings about Lollie and Julie's relationship. Someone who would have known about their trip and could have followed them into the mountains. Eventually, detectives landed on Lally's ex fiance. They tracked him down and brought him in for questioning, where he was given a polygraph test. He either passed or his results were inconclusive, because investigators quickly moved on to Julie's inner circle. But even then, no one in her life seemed to raise any red flags. Soon, the theory that the killer had a personal connection to Julie and Lollie was ruled out, which left investigators with an even more chilling possibility that this had been a completely random attack. Over the next several weeks, the FBI, local police, and park rangers combed the rugged terrain for additional clues. They publicly confirmed that one woman's body was found inside the tent. The other had been outside of it. Beyond that, though, officials stayed tight lipped. It's not clear why, but they declined to say whether the women were clothed or whether there had been signs of sexual assault. But they did rule out robbery. Nothing had been stolen. Whoever had killed Julie and Lally hadn't been in it for money or their expensive gear. They'd come to kill. With few leads on the ground, investigators widened their scope. They started digging through cold cases, looking for any links to Julie and Lally's murders. Sure enough, they found one. It happened a decade earlier, in 1986, about 150 miles away from Shenandoah, along the Colonial Parkway near Williamsburg, Virginia. Police had found a gay couple murdered inside their car. Rebecca Dowski and Kathleen Thomas had their wrists bound, their throats slashed, and there were no signs of sexual assault or robbery. The similarities were striking. Investigators seriously considered whether the same person might be responsible for both crimes. For a while, it seemed possible. The Colonial Parkway murders had haunted Virginia for years. Rebecca and Kathleen were just two victims in a series of killings along the roadway believed to be the work of a serial killer who targeted couples in remote areas. But after digging into it some more, detectives realized the timeline and other forensic details didn't match up. It's not clear how exactly they came to this decision, but it was another disappointing blow. And just like that, the investigation was back to square one. In July, a month after the murders, America's Most Wanted aired a segment on the case. The tip line got more than 50 calls that week alone. Unfortunately, none of those leads panned out either. By the end of the summer, the investigation had hit a wall. There had been no arrests, no clear suspects, and no real movement. For Julie and Lally's loved ones, it was agony. All they wanted were answers. But it would take years and another violent attack before the case found momentum again. Because in the wilderness, it's easy for one tragedy to fade into silence until something or someone shatters it again. It's Wednesday. Adams.
- [13:27]
Dax Shepard
I see you're trying to distract yourself.
- [13:28]
Carter Roy
From your own banal thoughts.
- [13:30]
Dax Shepard
Let me help. Here's a recording thing made of my latest root Canal.
- [13:47]
Carter Roy
Wednesday. Season two begins August 6th.
- [13:50]
Dax Shepard
Only on Netflix.
- [13:58]
Carter Roy
Three months after the murders of 24 year old Julie Williams and 26 year old Lolly Winans, investigators were still searching for answers. But authorities had a working theory. Like the queer community, they believe Julie and Lolly had been targeted because they were gay. Even so, no concrete evidence pointed to a hate crime. Then, in the summer of 1997, more than a year after the murders, another incident took place in Shenandoah national park. And it made investigators think maybe they were on the right track. Yvonne Malbasha was a Canadian cyclist visiting Shenandoah national park in July of that year. It was a hot summer day, and she was riding along Skyline Drive, the winding, scenic road that cuts through the park's most populous areas, not far from where Julie and Lollie had made their final camp. She was alone, taking in the mountain views and focusing on keeping her pedaling. Even as she pushed and pulled, she watched the road curve through the trees ahead. Then, out of nowhere, a pickup truck swerved into her path. Yvonne barely managed to avoid it, Veering off the road to keep from getting hit. She came to a shaky stop and tried to steady herself. That's when the driver jumped out and started yelling graphic sexual insults at her. He grabbed Yvonne and tried to drag her toward his truck. But Yvonne wasn't going down without a fight. She kicked and screamed and clawing her way out of his grip. Then she ran for the trees. Still, the man didn't give up. He got back in his truck and drove after her, trying to hit her with his vehicle. Thankfully, Yvonne slipped into the trees and out of reach. She waited for what felt like hours until eventually the man drove off. Yvonne was shaken but alive and very lucky. After calming down, she managed to get back on her bike and ride to safety, most likely to Skyline Lodge, where she found help and called authorities. Park rangers responded quickly, and they were able to track down the truck and pull it over as it was leaving the park. When they searched the vehicle, they found hand and leg restraints. The driver identified himself as Darrell David Rice. He was in his late 20s, from Columbia, Maryland. He didn't have kids, a partner, or a criminal record. But those who knew him described Rice as dangerous and volatile. Just a month earlier, he'd been fired from his IT job for aggressive behavior. He'd been accused of shouting sexual profanities at coworkers, punching a hole in the wall of the men's bathroom, and deliberately bumping into people hard enough to make them spill their drinks. Unemployed and angry, he'd gotten in his truck and driven about an hour and a half to Shenandoah Park. He'd been there several times before. It's not clear if he planned to take out his aggression on someone or if he randomly flew into a fit of rage when he saw Yvonne that day. Either way. Authorities charged him with the attempted abduction of Yvonne malbasha, and in 1998, he pleaded guilty. He was sentenced to more than 11 years in federal prison. But that wasn't the end of the story. Somewhere along the way, investigators started to wonder whether he could be connected to Julie and Lollie's murders. At first glance, it seemed like a stretch. Not only had the crimes taken place a year apart, but Yvonne's sexual orientation wasn't disclosed, which made it difficult to know why Rice had targeted Yvonne and if it had anything to do with Lolli and Julie's murders. But the more investigators dug into Rice's past, the more connections they uncovered. It turned out he had been in Shenandoah national park during the critical window when Julie and Lally were believed to have been killed. On May 25, 1996, the last known day that Julie and Lally were alive, Rice was caught on a park surveillance camera entering one of the gates at 8:05pm Rice left the next day, May 26, through a different gate just before 5pm Investigators believed Lolli and Julie had been killed sometime during that period. And strangely enough, Rice came back to the park with two friends on June 1, the same day Julie and Lally's bodies were discovered. When questioned, Rice denied that he was in Shenandoah. In May. However, he admitted to being there in June. Investigators wondered why he would lie about one and not the other. In their eyes, this only made him look more suspicious. And there was something else. When he was interviewed following his arrest, Rice made deeply disturbing remarks. He called women more vulnerable than men and said that he hates gays. When asked about Julie and Lolli, he didn't confess to killing them, but he did make additional comments explicitly blaming their sexual orientation for their deaths. That was enough for investigators. Before long, Daryl David Rice became their prime suspect. But identifying a suspect and building a case against them are two very different things. Although Rice was in jail for Yvonne's attempted kidnapping in 1997, it took years before he was charged with the murders of Lolli and Julie. Their loved ones waited on pins and needles for Rice to go to trial. In the meantime, the LGBTQIA community lobbied lawmakers for better protections for queer people. Many wanted to make sure that if Rice was convicted, he could be prosecuted to the full extent. Finally, on April 10, 2001, nearly five years after Julie and Lawley's deaths, the grand jury indicted Rice. He was charged with four counts of capital murder. Two of those charges specifically alleged that he had selected his victims because of their sexual Orientation. That meant his actions were officially designated as a hate crime. And if convicted, Rice could receive the death penalty. But for this crime, Rice didn't plead guilty. He maintained his innocence. So prosecutors went to work building their case. Initially, everything had seemed to point to him. But as they dug deeper, the picture became murkier. There was no physical evidence tying Rice to the scene. No fingerprints, no weapon, no DNA. Then, in 2003, prosecutors tested a hair that had been recovered at the campsite. It's unclear why it took so long to test that piece of evidence, but they were sure the DNA results would come back as a match for Rice and his fate would be sealed. Instead, it did the opposite. The hair didn't match Julie or Lolly. And most importantly, it didn't match Rice either. It belonged to some other unknown man. Just like that, the prosecution's case fell apart. Without forensic evidence, all they had left was circumstantial. His presence in the park, his disturbing comments, and his prior attack. Still, none of it proved he'd committed murder. They knew they were looking for a man, but they didn't know which one. Eventually, the charges were dropped. However, they were dismissed without prejudice. That meant prosecutors could refile them if new evidence ever emerged. Until that happened, investigators had to look elsewhere. Thankfully, they had that DNA evidence. Now they just needed to find a match.
- [23:20]
Unknown
On WhatsApp, no one can see or hear your personal messages. Whether it's a voice call message or sending a password to WhatsApp, it's all just this. So whether you're sharing the streaming password in the family chat or trading those late night voice messages that could basically become a podcast, your personal messages stay between you, your friends, and your family. No one else, not even us. WhatsApp message privately with everyone.
- [23:49]
Carter Roy
Your burger is served. And this is our finest Pepsi Zero sugar. Its sweet profile perfectly balances the savory notes of your burger. That is one perfect combination.
- [24:02]
Dax Shepard
Burgers deserve.
- [24:03]
Kristen Bell
Pepsi.
- [24:04]
Unknown
Forensic genealogy. The process of identifying unknown offenders through their DNA by finding genetic relatives and building out family trees. It's taken the crime solving world by storm. How does it work? And what are these cases all about? Find out on dnaid, the only podcast that exclusively covers the revolutionary technique that is forensic genealogy. This season, you'll hear more than 20 solved cases. And of course, we'll continue with our coverage of Doe identifications that we began in season three. Don't miss DNAID, wherever you get your podcasts.
- [24:42]
Carter Roy
By the early 2000s, the investigation into the Shenandoah national park murders had hit a dead END Darrell Rice, once the prime suspect, had been publicly indicted, then quietly cleared when the charges were dropped due to a lack of evidence. Still, the authorities weren't giving up. And just because they couldn't implicate Rice didn't mean the case was closed. Someone had killed 24 year old Julie Williams and 26 year old Lawley Winans. And luckily, the DNA evidence that had cleared Rice also gave investigators a new lead. They wondered if the hare was a match for someone who was already infamous in Virginia. The serial killer, Richard Evonitz. Evonitz had been linked to the abductions and murders of three teenage girls in Virginia in an area about an hour away from Shenandoah National park in 2002. With police closing in on him, he had fled to Florida and died by suicide before he could be arrested. And while Ivanitz had escaped prosecution, he hadn't escaped suspicion. After his death. Law enforcement began to look into other cold cases that matched his M.O. and Julie and Lawley's murders were a possible fit. The FBI submitted the hair found at the Shenandoah crime scene for further DNA testing to to see if it led them to evonits. But the results were complicated. They showed that in 799 out of 800 mitochondrial DNA markers, the hair matched Evonitz. The only discrepancy was due to a biological phenomenon called heteroplasmy. It's a rare mutation that can cause slight inconsistencies in mitochondrial DNA. The lab didn't consider it disqualifying. In fact, they explicitly recommended additional testing. They believed Evonitz couldn't be ruled out. But the FBI never followed up. For some reason, they doubled down on Rice. Instead, they had his DNA retested and ran new comparisons. Once again, the results showed Rice wasn't a match. Years later, someone investigating Julie and Lollie's murders would file a Freedom of Information act request. They wanted to know why. The FBI declined to follow up on Evonitz, but it was still unclear. The records showed they simply dropped the lead without and apparent reason. It must have been incredibly frustrating for Julie and Lolly's loved ones to stand by while the authorities seemed to be looking in all the wrong places. They were desperate for justice. But as the years passed, the case slowed to a standstill. Even then, Julie and Lollie's families waited, hoping against all odds that one day they'd get closure. Then, in 2021, 25 years after the murders, their prayers were answered. That year, the FBI's Richmond, Virginia office launched a renewed effort to solve the case. They pulled together a new team. With dedicated special agents, analysts and forensic experts. They set out to methodically re examine every aspect of the Shenandoah murders. They combed through hundreds of old interviews and leads. They reopened boxes of evidence that hadn't been touched in decades. They tracked down witnesses and re interviewed them. And most critically, they sent items from the crime scene to a cutting edge private DNA lab. The lab succeeded where earlier testing had failed. They extracted a viable DNA profile, which was then entered into CODIS, the FBI's national DNA database. It came back with a hit. Someone who wasn't on their radar before. A man named Walter Leo Jackson Sr. Jackson had been a serial predator with a long and violent criminal record that involved rape, kidnapping, and assault. Originally from the Cleveland area, the 71 year old had died in an Ohio prison three years earlier, in 2018. Although Jackson had worked as a house painter, he led a double life that centered around him assaulting and terrorizing women. At the time of Julie and Lally's murders, Jackson had been an avid hiker and was known to visit Shenandoah National Park. He was also smart when it came to concealing his movements. He used temporary tags, swapped license plates, and changed vehicles frequently to make him harder to track. But this time, he left something behind. DNA. The FBI has never revealed where specifically the DNA was found, but we do know that investigators compared that evidence against a buccal swab taken from Jackson before his death. The results were conclusive. In June 2024, the FBI held a press conference. It had been a quarter of a century since the brutal murders. And finally, they had answers. They announced that Walter Leo Jackson Sr. Was the man who had killed Julie Williams and Lali Winans. For years, the working theory had been that Julie and Lally were killed because they were gay. The brutality of the attack and the lack of any obvious motive had all pointed to a hate crime. And for the LGBTQIA community, the case had become a rallying cry, a reminder of the dangers queer people face simply for existing. Julie and Lally's case had also played a role in the creation of the Local Law Enforcement Enhancement Act. It was a bill that expanded federal hate crime protections to include sexual orientation alongside race, religion and gender. But now, with Jackson identified, investigators re examined the assumption that this had been a hate crime. They finally admitted to the public that both women had been sexually assaulted. And they said there was no further evidence that Jackson had targeted them because of their sexual orientation. As far as the FBI could determine, Jackson probably didn't even know the women were a couple. Their murders, while horrific, were no longer categorized as a hate crime. It was a strange shift for many in the LGBTQIA community. Now it seemed that Julie and Lawley's story had a different ending, one that wasn't necessarily symbolic of the struggles of the queer community, but the struggles of being a woman. Even so, their murders inspired important change for Julie and Lale's loved ones. The FBI's announcement was bittersweet. There would be no trial, no chance to ask Jackson why. No justice in the traditional sense. He was already dead. But there was relief in finally having answers. A name at least, and the truth. At the same press conference, the FBI made one final plea. They released photos of Jackson and his cars and asked for the public's help identifying other potential victims. Today, the investigation into Jackson's additional crimes is ongoing. But Julie and Lally's legacy doesn't end with their killer's identification because their story was one of love, adventure, and bravery. Regardless of why they were killed, their case remains a powerful reminder of the long road to justice and the people who never stop walking it. Thanks so much for listening. I'm Carter Roy and this is True Crime Stories. Come back next week for the story of another murder and all the people it affected. True Crime Stories is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on social media, rimehouse on TikTok and Instagram. Don't forget to rate, review and follow Murder True Crime Stories wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference and to enhance your Murder True Crime Stories listening experience, subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode ad free and instead of having to wait for each episode of a two part series, you'll get access to both at once plus exciting bonus content. We'll be back next Tuesday. True Crime Stories is hosted by me, Carter Roy, and is a Crime House original. Powered by Pave Studios. This episode was brought to life by the Murder True Crime Stories team. Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benidon, Natalie Pertovsky, Sarah Camp, Alex Burns, Beth Johnson and Russell Nash. Thank you for listening. De la Vuelta Clases de Amazon Amazon.
- [35:43]
Kaylin Moore
Gas Domenos Son Riemas hi, it's Kaylin Moore. Crime House is home to the most gripping true crime shows and you don't want to miss what's coming up on my show, Clues that I co host with Morgan Habsher we are digging into the chilling details of Amy Archer Gilligan, a nursing home proprietor whose trail of natural deaths turned out to be anything but. Join us as we examine the evidence one clue at a time. Listen to clues every Wednesday on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to your podcasts.