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- [00:01]
Carter Roy
Hi everyone, it's Carter. Exciting news. Video episodes of Murder True Crime Stories are now on YouTube. Every Friday, I'll be dropping a full video episode, going deeper into the cases that still haunt us. The mysteries that haven't been solved, and the stories that deserve more than just a headline. Same depth, same commitment to telling the real story. But now you can watch it. Subscribe at Murder True crime stories on YouTube to catch a new video episode every Friday. This is crime house. We all have a line, an invisible boundary between what's funny and what's cruel, between entertainment and exploitation. In the 1990s, daytime talk shows made a business out of erasing that line. Ordinary people were promised their moment in the spotlight. They were pulled onto brightly lit stages and exposed in front of millions. Their most vulnerable secrets became spectacle, all in the name of ratings. But almost no one stopped to ask the question that mattered most. What happened after the cameras stopped rolling and the laughter faded? On March 6, 1995, the Jenny Jones show taped a segment about people revealing their same sex crushes. It was marketed as yet another episode in a long line of shocking reveals and embarrassing confrontations. Instead, it triggered a reckoning for the daytime talk show industry because three days later, one of the guests would be dead and the other would be charged with his murder. People's lives are like a story. There's a beginning, a middle and an end. But you don't always know which part you're on. Sometimes the final chapter arrives far too soon and we don't always get to know the real ending. I'm Carter Roy and this is True Crime Stories, a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. New episodes come out every Tuesday, Thursday and Friday, with Friday's episodes covering the cases that deserve a deeper look. And remember, those Friday episodes are also on YouTube with full video. Just search for Murder True Crime Stories and be sure to like and subscribe. Thank you for being part of the Crime House community. Please rate, review and follow the show and for ad free access to every episode. Subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts. This is the first of two episodes on the murder of 32 year old Scott Amador in Michigan in 1995. Today I'll introduce you to Scott and dive into the culture of daytime talk television in the 1990s. I'll explain how Scott fell into the trap set by the Jenny Jones show and what happened on that Chicago stage in March 1995. Next time I'll cover the days after the taping and the moment when Scott's life came to an end. Then I'll follow the case into the courtroom. Lawyers debated whether the person who pulled the trigger was to blame or if the Jenny Jones show bore the brunt of the responsibility. All that and more coming up. You know that moment in spring when you open your closet and you think, do I really need all this? I do. Lately, I've been trying to keep fewer pieces, but ones that actually feel special and wear well every day. And that is why I keep coming back to Quints. Their linen pants and shirts are lightweight, breathable and comfortable. I literally have one on right now. The kind of pieces that make spring mornings effortless and their Flit activewear Soft moisture wicking anti odor. Honestly, I wanna live in it. The best part is the value. Quints works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middlemen, so you're getting premium quality at prices 50 to 60% lower than similar brands. Everything is made to last and simplifies getting dressed. Refresh your wardrobe with quints. Go to quints.com crimehouse for free shipping and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. Go to Q U I n c e.com crimehouse for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com crimehouse spring is finally here, and
- [05:24]
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- [06:42]
Carter Roy
Scott Amador was born on January 26, 1963 in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. His dad, Frank was a truck driver and his mom Patricia was a factory worker. Scott was the baby of the family, the youngest of the couple's six children. When Scott was 5, the family moved to Michigan. Two years later, in 1970, his parents got divorced. Scott was just 7, and at that point, he and his siblings spent most of their time living with their dad. We don't know a whole lot about Scott's teenage years. All we know is that at 17 years old, he dropped out of high school and enlisted in the air force. Scott was deployed to Germany, where he got his GED while training in satellite communications. In his free time, he learned to ski, which would ultimately be his downfall. After four years abroad, he broke his leg while skiing in Switzerland. After that, 21 year old, Scott received an honorable discharge and was sent back stateside. Maybe the military gave him the structure he was looking for. Maybe it gave him an escape from his family, or maybe it was just a job. But at some point, while Scott was serving his country, something important happened. Something that would shape the rest of his life. He came out to his family. According to his brother, no one had an issue with Scott's sexuality, Not even their dad, who would have been the most old fashioned of the bunch. The Amadors accepted Scott for who he was. In the 1980s, that kind of acceptance was rare. This was an era when the US Military was openly said that homosexuality was, quote, incompatible with service. Thousands of men were kicked out simply for being gay. About 17,000 over the course of the decade. So when Scott came out, he certainly didn't tell his superiors. He quietly let his family know. In most parts of the country, it was still legal to fire someone for their sexual orientation. The American Psychiatric association had only stopped classifying homosexuality as a mental disorder in 1973, just about a decade before Scott came out. And then there was AIDS. And by the time Scott returned stateside in 1984, the epidemic was tearing through the gay community. Politicians and religious leaders called it the gay plague, using fear and misinformation to justify even more discrimination. Gay men were dying by the thousands, while the federal government said very little and did even less. It must have been a terrifying time to be a young gay man in America. But Scott had his family support. And for someone coming out in the mid-1980s, that meant meant everything. It meant he didn't have to hide at home. He had a place to be himself. So by the time 21 year old Scott returned to Michigan after his stint in the air force, he was an out and proud gay man. He Wasn't hiding or pretending. He was just Scott. He was always there for his friends and family when they needed him. And deep down, Scott just wanted everyone to love him the way he loved them. Over the next few years, he tried to build a life for himself. In his early 20s, he got a job in the telecommunications industry. He stuck with it for a few years. The work was fine and the money was okay. It paid the bills, but it just wasn't who he was. So eventually, Scott let it go. And by his late 20s, he'd found something that suited him better. He became a bartender at Club Flamingo, a gay club in Pontiac, Michigan, about 20 minutes away from where he lived in Lake Orion. He was friendly, charming and good at making conversation. He especially loved the social side of the job. Getting to know the regulars, falling into a rhythm, feeling connected. But that didn't mean life was easy. At some point along the way, Scott struggled with substance abuse issues, specifically cocaine. It's not clear when it started or how bad things got, but we know Scott went to rehab twice, trying to get it under control. And once he was back home, focused on staying clean, talk show television became his new obsession. This was the mid-90s, the golden era of trash talk. TV hosts like Jerry Springer and Jenny Jones competed for attention, trying to get the highest ratings by airing increasingly risque topics. Episodes of Jerry Springer included I Want to Confront My Pimp and and I slept with 251 men in 10 hours. Jenny Jones counter programmed with episodes like I Don't Want My Daughter to Date Interracially, I Hate My Own Race and My Teens Too Hot. The shows got messy fast. Sometimes even violent. Participants were often manipulated into either divulging or or learning uncomfortable information. Secrets were spilled, confrontations erupted, and no matter what, the cameras kept rolling. Scott loved it all. He would call up friends to gush about what the talk show hosts were covering that day. He loved watching people's most intimate details get spilled on national tv. He thought that maybe one day he would end up on a show like that. He had no idea that a chance encounter would bring him one step closer to making that dream come true. In early 1995, 32 year old Scott was on his way to see one of his brothers who lived nearby in the Manitou Lane apartments. The two story complex was home to a lot of friendly faces and including one of Scott's good friends, 32 year old Donna Riley. Scott was always in and out of the place, dropping by and hanging out with either her or his brother. That day Scott happened to notice a young man fixing Donna's car in the parking lot. Technically, he just saw the bottom half of the stranger, but Scott was intrigued so he went over to introduce himself. The man emerged from underneath the car and said hi back. It was 24 year old Jonathan Schmitz, or just John as his friends called him. He was one of Donnah's friends. Scott thought John was cute and knowing Scott, he probably did a little flirting with John right then and there. Maybe he gave him some tips on the car since Scott was a bit of a handyman himself. Or maybe he just cracked a joke, flashed a smile and moved on. However it went down, Scott told Donna about the encounter. Later. He must have asked what she knew about John because that's what you do when you meet someone who catches your eye. You ask questions and find out more. Donna didn't know if John was into guys. She said John's family had questioned him about his sexuality, but John had never come out to her or anyone else as far as she was aware. Still, she thought it would be great if her two friends got together. She liked Scott. She liked John. What was the worst that could happen?
- [15:29]
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- [16:31]
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- [16:50]
Carter Roy
In early 1995, 32 year old Scott Amador met 24 year old Jonathan Schmitz through their mutual friend, 32 year old Donna Riley. Scott told Donna that he had a crush on John and she encouraged Scott to pursue him. She even staged accidental run ins between the two at her apartment just to see if there was a spark there. Over the next month or so, Scott learned more. He found out that John was a waiter at a local restaurant called called Fox and Hounds. He was a big outdoors guy, hunting, fishing, that kind of thing. He was the fourth of five kids and his family had lived in Michigan his entire life. John's mom stayed home to take care of the children while his dad Allen was a woodworker. Allen was also very strict and believed in physical punishment. One time he spanked John with a belt, supposedly in front of his sixth grade class. It was difficult to navigate, especially since John was just a kid, but he managed to find his footing as a teenager. In high school, all the girls loved him, but he never played the field. He always had a steady girlfriend and was definitely the relationship relationship type. After graduating from high school in 1987, John stayed in Michigan. He even got engaged and moved in with his fiance. Her name has been kept private, so we don't know much about her relationship with John or how they met. But at some point they decided to break things off. Supposedly they both agreed they were too young and just weren't ready for for marriage. It was a mutual decision with no hard feelings. They even stayed close afterward. However, some people have speculated there was another reason for the breakup. Several patrons at Club Flamingo, the gay club where Scott bartended, claimed to have seen John at the club walking around scoping things out. If that was true, he and Scott never crossed paths there. But if Scott had heard the rumors about John showing up at the club, he might have been encouraged to pursue John even more. Because if John really was closeted, maybe the two of them stood a chance. Scott saw an opportunity to find out once and for all while watching an episode of the Jenny Jones show. The talk show was looking for people who wanted to reveal their same sex crush on live tv. It was the kind of segment that Scott loved to watch and now he could be part of it. He decided to call the number he pitched himself and explained the situation with John. Then he waited for them to make a decision. Soon a producer called him back. They were interested in having him and John on the show. For Scott, this was the best of both worlds. He was an adventurous person who was down to try anything. Not to mention he loved talk shows, especially Jenny Jones. He'd always wanted to be in the spotlight. Now Scott could tell John how he really felt and make his TV debut in the process. John had a very different reaction. After speaking to Scott, producers from the Jenny Jones show called John out of the blue. They told him they were running a program dedicated to secret admirers. If he agreed, they would fly him to Chicago, where the show was filmed. There, his secret admirer would be revealed in front of a studio audience. The producers told John the secret admirer could either be a man or a woman. But it's not clear if John was really processing what they were saying. It was all a bit overwhelming for him, and John told the producers he would have to think about it. But internally, he was leaning toward saying no. His friends and co workers convinced him otherwise. John and his fiance had called off their engagement in the fall. Months had gone by, and they thought it was time for John to put himself back out there. This could be his fresh start, his big moment. At that point, John started reconsidering. But before saying yes, he wanted to figure out who put him up to this. He had a sneaking suspicion that it was either Donna or Scott. He lived below Donna, so he went upstairs to her apartment. He asked if she had any big plans, like maybe going to Chicago next Monday. Donna pretended like she had no idea what he was talking about. She said she wasn't planning on going to Chicago anytime soon. When John questioned Scott, he said the same thing. He had other plans. John believed them, which made him think that maybe there really was was a secret admirer out there. It didn't matter that he'd been told the person could be a man or a woman. John started daydreaming about his perfect girl, someone who'd been there all along, just waiting for the right moment to tell him how she felt. Soon, he called the producers of the Jenny Jones show back and told them he was in. After that, John went out and spent about $300 on new clothes. He wanted to look good for the taping. Then on Sunday, March 5, 1995, he flew to Chicago for the Jenny Jones show. By 1995, the Jenny Jones show was firmly entrenched in the daytime talk show ecosystem and competing for survival within it. The show hadn't started out that way, and when it premiered in 1991, Jenny Jones operated more like a traditional daytime program. Cooking segments, fashion tips, celebrity interviews. It was safe and inoffensive but crucially easy to ignore. That version of the show didn't last very long. By its second season, the format shifted to keep pace with what was working elsewhere. The focus became single issue. Episodes built around everyday people and their personal lives. Oftentimes, the subjects were what producers called relational transgressions. We're talking infidelity, family drama, secret crushes, stories that could be teased in a sentence and escalated on camera. Jenny Jones wasn't operating in a vacuum. She was up against Jerry Springer, Ricki Lake, Sally Jesse, Raphael, Maury Povich, Oprah. All of them were chasing the same daytime audience and the ratings that went along with them. And in the ratings war, winning meant going bigger, louder and more shocking. By the mid-90s, the competition had pushed the genre toward what critics called ambush. TV shows promised participants one experience, then delivered something much more volatile. Once the cameras were rolling and the Jenny Jones show became especially well known for this approach, producers encouraged big reactions and uncomfortable reveals. The appeal was watching real people process emotional landmines in real time. For viewers, it was unpredictable entertainment. For networks, it was great business. And for people like Scott Amador, it was an opportunity to be part of the spectacle himself. But then there was John, who wasn't really aware of any of that. He wasn't a talk show fan like Scott. He didn't know about the staged confrontations or the tricks producers used to get reactions. He was just a 24 year old man who thought he was about to meet the woman of his dreams. Because according to John, at that point, a staff member had assured him that his secret admirer was in fact, a woman. In John's head, there was no reason to doubt them. Why would they lie? This is a real TV show with professionals at the helm. John was so excited that he started jumping up and down on his hotel bed like a kid on Christmas morning. He called another friend to say he couldn't wait. By the time Monday morning came, John was still riding that high. He waited in a soundproof room backstage, knees bouncing, feet tapping, heart racing. He was moments away from meeting his mystery woman. Then a producer came to his room and grabbed him. It was time. John could hardly contain his smile as they led him to the stage. But when he stepped out in front of the studio audience, his stomach turned. That's when he realized this was not what he'd signed up for.
- [27:19]
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- [27:54]
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- [28:25]
Carter Roy
was evidence in the house and they would not listen to me.
- [28:30]
Rosetta Stone Advertiser
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- [28:37]
Carter Roy
The letter from the doctor said I have six months or less to live. I'm scared shitless right now.
- [28:44]
Rosetta Stone Advertiser
A dying man is serving a life sentence for a murder he says he didn't commit. Did you ever question if they got the right person?
- [28:51]
Carter Roy
I don't think I believed it at the time. I don't think I believe it now.
- [28:55]
Lemonade Pet Insurance Advertiser
I'm scared to be sitting here in this damn chair talking about this shit.
- [28:59]
Carter Roy
How many other cold cases we're going to come forward and go hey man, we need to look at my shit because I didn't do it. How many more do we have?
- [29:06]
Rosetta Stone Advertiser
You can listen now to season three of Proof wherever you get your podcasts and follow along with us as we reinvestigate the murder at the bike shop.
- [29:15]
Carter Roy
Everything I tell you is the truth. I'm not bullshitting one way or the other. I hope I don't bring a ton of shit down on me. I really do. On March 6, 1995, the Jenny Jones show taped an episode titled Secret Crushes on people of the same sex. Producers brought 32 year old Scott Amador and his friend 32 year old Donna Riley from Michigan to the show Chicago studio. They flew 24 year old Jonathan Schmitz out separately. Everyone but John knew what was about to go down. While John was sequestered In a soundproof room backstage, pacing, waiting, his heart hammering with excitement, Scott and Donna took their seats in front of the studio audience. The air in the room buzzed with anticipation. The audience knew they were about to watch something messy unfold, and they couldn't wait. Jenny Jones stood among them, Wearing a yellow suit, her hair perfectly blown out. She looked like someone's nice mom. She smiled like it, too. If you met her on the street, you might describe her as warm or approachable. But Jones was a woman who knew how to stir up drama in the name of ratings. She spoke to the camera first, priming the audience for what they were about to witness. This was her opening statement. Now, which of these ways would you choose to reveal your secret crush on someone? A, would you write that person a letter? B, would you tell that person in private in case he rejects you? Or C, would you tell that person that you're gay and you hope he is? On national television, the audience erupted in cheers and laughter. Some held their hands over their mouths. Others turned to their friends and started gossiping. And this was 1995. Fewer people came out of the closet. Only a fourth of Americans supported gay marriage. The prospect of having a gay crush and revealing it on TV was shocking and provocative. Jones played right into that. With her audience on edge, Jones turned her attention to Scott and Donna on stage. She started asking Scott questions about John. How had they met? What were Scott's first thoughts about him? And did John know that Scott was gay? Scott confirmed that, yes, John knew Scott was gay, but Scott and Donna weren't sure about John's sexuality. Then Scott smiled and shrugged and said, anything's possible. The studio audience ate that up. After that, Jones tried to get Scott to share his fantasies about John, although, honestly, it didn't take much. Scott was soaking up the spotlight, loving every minute of it. He still didn't know how John would respond, but Scott figured, worst case, it would be a joke they could all laugh about later. So Scott played into Jones hands. When she asked him what was so interesting about John, Scott said, quote, he has a cute little hard body. The audience laughed, and Scott kept going, saying that he wanted to just pick John up and put him in his cabinet to dust off whenever he wanted. Then Jones asked about sexual fantasies, and Scott delivered. He talked about wanting to tie John up to the hammock in his yard. Then he added that there would be whipped cream and champagne involved. The audience was hooked, which meant it was time for Jones to bring John out. The moment John stepped onto that stage, everything changed. John gave Donna a hug and a kiss on the cheek. Then a one arm half hearted hug to Scott. At that point, it seemed like John believed Donna was the one with a crush on him. That's when Jones dropped the bombshell. It wasn't Donna who had the secret crush on John. It was Scott. John laughed it off, but it was clear to most people in the audience that John was uncomfortable. And you could see it in his body language, the way his shoulders tensed and his smile didn't quite reach his eyes. So of course Jennie Jones pushed his buttons. She played back a clip from a few minutes earlier, the one where Scott was elaborating on his fantasies. John listened as Scott detailed the hammock fantasy. The camera cut back to John. His face was frozen in that same forced smile. Jones asked what he thought. John admitted he had no idea that Scott liked him like that. Then Jones asked about John's relationship status. He said he was not seeing anyone, but was definitely heterosexual. The audience laughed and clapped. John just sat there trying to hold it together. The rest of the segment followed a similar pattern. John was still uncomfortable, but played ball. He was polite and didn't make a scene. At the end, Scott said it was fine that John didn't have feelings for him. Jones laughed along with the audience and said that at the very least, Scott had paid John a nice compliment. She made it sound harmless, just some light fun. But that wasn't how John saw it. And three days later he would show the world how he really felt about being ambushed on live tv. Thanks so much for listening. I'm Carter Roy and this is Murder True Crime Stories. Come back next time for part two on the murder of Scott Amador and all the people it affected. True Crime Stories is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. Here at Crime House, we want to thank each and every one of you for your support. If you like what you heard today, reach out on social media, Rimehouse on TikTok and Instagram. Don't forget to rate, review and follow True Crime Stories wherever you get your podcasts. Your feedback truly makes a difference and to enhance your Murder True Crime Stories listening experience, subscribe to Crime House plus on Apple Podcasts. You'll get every episode ad free. We'll be back on Thursday. True Crime Stories is hosted by me, Carter Roy and is a Crime House original powered by Pave Studios. This episode was brought to life by the Murder True Crime Stories team. Max Cutler, Ron Shapiro, Alex Benedon, Natalie Pertzofsky, Sarah Camp, Alex Burns and Russell Nash. Thank you for listening.
- [37:21]
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- [37:50]
Carter Roy
thanks for listening to today's episode of Murder True Crime Stories. Not sure what to listen to next? Check out America's Most Infamous Crimes hosted by Katie Ring. From serial killers to unsolved mysteries and game changing investigations, each week Katie takes on a notorious criminal case in American history. Listen to and follow America's Most Infamous Crimes now. Wherever you listen to podcasts,
- [38:23]
Progressive Insurance Advertiser
just a quick break. Here's a tip. Planning your next fishing trip? On TikTok, you'll find gear reviews, lake tips and local tricks. Short videos straight to the point. Download TikTok now.