A (2:22)

Oh.

B (2:23)

And her hand went straight up and straight into my cheek. And she had the tweezers in her hand and.

A (2:31)

Okay, this could not believe me.

B (2:32)

She also punched my eye at the same time. And I thought she stabbed my eye and I thought I lost an eye. Luckily, she stabbed my cheek instead. Okay, it's not going to scar, so don't worry, guys. Not gonna lie. It hurt really bad. It hurt, but I'm okay. We talked it out and we worked out and everything's good. What is your side of the story?

A (2:55)

K. Therapist. Listen, thank you for sharing.

B (2:58)

Okay, but you have a time limit with this.

A (3:00)

I appreciate your perspective. I was doing exactly the same thing Garrett was. He, like, he said he was over on me and then we. We. He was. We were like, joking. We were teasing. And I don't remember what you said, but I went to, like, lean over on top of you. I don't remember really where I was going, but I like, almost very energetically swung my hand over to lean on top of him. And I had the tweezers in my hand stab me. And I think he was moving at the same time because we were kind of joking and teasing. And the tweezers literally right ran right up his cheek like. Like, probably 4 inches, 3 inches. I don't know my inches. Garrett's never been very clear on that with me.

B (3:44)

Hurt.

A (3:45)

It is such is two long scratches. His face was bleeding. But then after I did it, he immediately covered his eye and I immediately yell, where did I hit you? Where did I get you? Where did I get you? And he's not talking to me. He's just, oh, my gosh, oh, my gosh, oh, my gosh. And I'm sitting there like I just blinded him. Like, I just took these tweezers and stabbed his eye out. Luckily, the tweezers did not hit his eye out.

B (4:09)

Two more inches and I honestly, not jokingly, I would have lost my eye.

A (4:13)

I think so too.

B (4:14)

I literally would have lost my eye, but I didn't. And we're here. Everything's okay. Got some Neosporin on it. Make sure it doesn't scar. We. Oh, we should. Taking a picture with the band aid on it.

A (4:24)

And then Garrett was like, it was so funny. Garrett was trying to put the Neosporin on, and he's like, is this anti scar? And I'm. I'm just a little stressed, so I'm not really. And then he goes, no, this is pain. He goes, no, this one's the pain.

B (4:37)

Ointment Queen instead of cream. So queen.

A (4:41)

He's like queen.

B (4:42)

It wasn't a good night. It was a. It was an awful night. Okay.

A (4:45)

We were laughing our heads.

B (4:45)

It was pretty funny. But it could have ended poor.

A (4:49)

I literally had like a thought as soon as I saw you holding your eye that I literally. That you were going to uncover and your eye was going to be bleeding.

B (4:59)

Yeah. Probably one of my biggest fears. It was pretty scary. That's my 10 seconds. I'm a survivor. And what?

A (5:10)

You're crazy.

B (5:11)

I don't mean it like that. I don't mean it in a true crime sense. So everyone relax. I don't mean it like that. Yeah, that's all I got. It was kind of a long 10 seconds. But it wasn't just my fault. Paint talk to. So on that note, we will hop into today's case.

A (5:25)

Our sources for this episode are ksbw.com abc7chicago.com latimes.com new york post.com usatoday.com abc30.com abc7news.com CNN NBC news.com the sacramento bee, the guardian.com abcnews.go.com CBS news, huffpost.com and oxygen.com okay, so for a lot of people having the perfect life looks something like this. Happily married, maybe a couple kids, healthy kids. You've climbed the ranks at your dream job. You're making enough money to support your family, to live comfortably. Maybe you have a lavish vacation. You have a fancy sports car, maybe a boat. You have a beautiful home where you're comfortable, happy and content. So most of us envision this and think what more could someone possibly want? But it's only natural for us as humans to keep striving for more and to add some element of surprise, danger or risk when we feel like life has fallen into a routine, no matter how perfect things may seem. But then the question becomes are we ever really satisfied with what we have or are we self sabotaging creatures always looking to achieve the next big, big goal, Seeking the next big thrill?

B (6:50)

Actually, a really good question because I feel like I do that a lot.

A (6:53)

I think it's very normal.

B (6:55)

Yeah, I think it is.

A (6:56)

I do think it's like unhealed parts of us. You don't. Do you think it's just innate, like within us to go for the next thing?

B (7:05)

I don't know. I have to think about that one. But we can keep going.

A (7:08)

How this applies to today's case is what happens when chasing that throat grill costs you and your family everything which is probably not necessarily in this sense, but in some sense has happened to multiple people. So today we are headed to Santa Cruz, California, where in 2013 a 51 year old dad named Forrest Hayes is living with his family. Now Forrest has the kind of life that I just painted for you. He has a loving wife who he has been married to for 17 years named Denise. And the two have this beautiful home in this upper crust neighborhood, one they paid $3 million for in 2013.

B (7:54)

Oh my gosh, that's like, yeah, that'd be like a seven, $8 million house now.

A (8:00)

And they have five beautiful children, including toddler twins at the time of this story. But I want to be clear, Forrest isn't someone with generational wealth who was handed this lifestyle. It does seem he worked hard for it. His resume is super impressive. The guy held ranks at a lot of the top companies in Silicon Valley. I'm talking Apple, Ford, Google. He was working on some really top secret projects at this time in 2013 as well with these companies. So it turns out Forrest was hired by Google to work in their Google X Moonshot factory, which is apparently where they develop some of the wildest, most futuristic technology they can think of. Things like Google Glass. And Forest was actually hired to run their self driving car program again in 2013. Everyone who worked for Forest said he was the man of reason around the office, the one who applied practical logistics for to some of these big ideas that would one day turn them into reality. So basically he kept everyone there grounded in their designs and their expectations. And from everything I can read, the people he worked with really respected him for his management style and the way he was as a person. They said he was calm, he was an effective leader, he had a warm heart and a knack for problem solving. And when things got hectic at work, Forrest always kept a level head. He addressed the situation with a sense of humor to keep things light around the workplace. Honestly, seems like he was cut out for the job that he ended up getting. And in fact, one colleague of his said the only time he would really see Forest upset was when something was taking time away from him and his family because he always wanted to prioritize them over his work. And while he was at a high stress, high profile, job, he really seemed to be putting in the hours for his wife and kids. I mean, he does have kids, toddler age, at home. And if there's one quality that stood out to me when people were kind of describing Forrest, it was that he had, quote, reasonable judgment. They pointed to examples like how Forest bought an electric car just so he could take the carpool lanes and get to and from work faster so he could spend more time with his family.

B (10:26)

What year is this? He had an electric car 2013.

A (10:29)

But again, he's high up at Google. They are working on self driving cars at this point.

B (10:34)

That's crazy because there wasn't that many great electric cars at this point.

A (10:38)

And this is kind of why I find what happened next in this case so incredibly strange because the overall feeling about Forrest was that he was very reasonable. So as you can imagine, Forrest was paid very well as a Google executive in one of their top secret divisions. So let's just say he had a lot of disposable income. He bought himself a few toys with that cash. He had a modified Porsche. He had a 46 foot yacht, which he appropriately named Escape. He outfitted this boat with $200,000 worth of expensive tech, including these really advanced cameras and a security system, not to mention an $8,000 captain's chair and a leather ceiling. He had the boat docked in the Santa Cruz harbor not far from his home. And for him, it really was an escape. It was a place that he would go to to be out on the open waters, clear his mind, forget about the stress of work. Which was exactly where Forrest was the night of November 22, 2013. So that Friday, after a long week at the office, Forrest went to spend some time on his yacht. He kept it docked, just enjoying the view of the other boats coming in and out of the harbor while he blew off some steam. But the following morning, November 23, Forrest's wife Denise starts to worry because Forrest hasn't come home yet. Now, it is possible he's done this before, maybe slept on his boat, because Denise doesn't call 911 right away. And after not being able to get a hold of her husband, she calls the captain of his boat and asks, hey, can you go down to the harbor just to check on him? So the captain of their yacht does. And when the captain gets there, he starts wandering around, checking the deck. There's no sign of Forrest until he goes into the main cabin. And there he finds Forrest lying motionless. So the Captain immediately dials 91 1, but it is too late. Forrest Hayes, the father, husband, and high powered Google executive, is already dead on his yacht.

B (12:56)

Wow.

A (12:57)

So after the autopsy is performed, the Santa Cruz county coroner rules the death is accidental.

B (13:04)

The second yacht death that we've had recently.

A (13:08)

So the coroner says Forrest died of an apparent heroin overdose.

B (13:15)

Okay.

A (13:16)

Now this comes as a shock to everyone who knows Forrest because as far as anyone knows, Forrest doesn't have a heroin addiction. And I, I think to them they're like, well, how is he this high functioning executive? How is he so on top of his game right now as both a father and an executive if he is indulging in heavy drugs?

B (13:36)

It's interesting because I do know. I mean, I don't know how big it is anymore, but all right, there was a big craze. You still hear rumors about it. Cocaine, right. A lot of executives and high profile people, whatever, do cocaine, right, to help them with business. But I don't quote me on this. I would. I'm pretty sure heroin doesn't. It does not release the same effects that cocaine does when it comes to that.

A (14:05)

Yeah, I didn't even think about this when researching.

B (14:08)

It's a different type of drug. I could be totally wrong. So correct me if you want. I can look it up while Payton's talking.

A (14:14)

But yeah, clearly neither Garrett or I have ever used heroin or cocaine because we don't even know. Really.

B (14:21)

Speak for yourself.

A (14:23)

I don't really know what each does.

B (14:27)

Cocaine is a stimulant. So in the short term it can make someone feel more alert, confident and energetic. Which is why we just mentioned what you mentioned. Heroin, on the other hand, is a depressant or opioid. It slows the body and brain, causing sedation, relaxation, blah, blah, blah, so on and so forth. So they do different. They do two different things. If you didn't know that.

A (14:48)

Okay, I actually didn't know.

B (14:50)

Yeah, now we know.

A (14:51)

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B (15:46)

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A (16:16)

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B (16:28)

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A (16:47)

I put it on, I leave and realize that the base of my outfit, my underwear, has ruined the outfit for me because it is bunching, it is moving, it is giving me a wedgie and I feel uncomfortable, which then makes me hate my perfect outfit. And that is why I have recently become obsessed with skims. I have told you before that the Fits Everybody fabric at Skims, it's perfect. I don't know what else to tell you. It doesn't move. It is buttery, soft, it feels good on your skin. And honestly, they have it in a ton of products. But the Fits Everybody boy shorts underwear is what I have been raving about lately. Honestly, I ordered a pair for this ad and then ordered like six more pairs after I put them on because I was like this is the only underwear I ever want to wear again. And don't even get me started on the Fits Everybody crossover bralette that I got. It is so nice again, so soft and cute. It is cute. It is fun to wear around the house. I've even worn it to the gym. So if you're still settling for uncomfortable bras or underwear that don't last, you are overdue for a skims upgrade. We do not upgrade our underwear enough. So trust me, it is time for you to upgrade to skims. Skims is just that girl in your top drawer shop my favorite bras and underwear@skims.com and after you place your order. So once you're all done, be sure to let them know we Sent you. There's a little survey. You can select podcast in the survey and then select our show in the dropdown menu that follows. Just lets them know that we are the ones that sent you to skims. Lets them know that you are supporting them and our show. And I would really greatly appreciate it. So once you're done, don't forget that step. But, yeah, go shop skims. You will not regret it. Now, interestingly enough, his death stays out of the media for quite some time. It's actually not until months later that the general public catches wind of this story. This high executive who overdosed on heroin alone on his boat. And by that time, the police have learned a few things about what happened that night on the escape. See, Forrest's death might have been ruled as accidental, but the police don't think he was actually alone that night. When they first stepped on board the escape, they noticed something about the scene that stood out. There was two wine glasses out. Both appear to have been used. But his wife was at home worrying about him. Correct. So who was Forrest with? And what's strange is that's really all they find. This is really the only thing police find, because they later learn that the boat captain, who Denise called to check on Forrest, actually did a little cleanup of his own before the police arrived. And when police ask him if he can give them access to those high tech security cameras Forrest had installed on board, he doesn't really cooperate. They have to get a subpoena to get the video footage. Now, the police don't seem to think the captain is involved in any way. They just think that he is trying to protect Forrest and his family and their reputation, maybe keep whatever secrets Forrest was trying to keep on board the escape that night. And when investigators finally do get a hold of the footage three months later, they see exactly what the secret was. The video shows a woman with long black hair and tattoos approaching the boat and hugging Forrest. They do have some wine. They chat and hang out. But later, it shows her preparing injectable drugs for both of them.

B (20:43)

Okay.

A (20:43)

And while her back is to the camera, in one scene, it looks like she first injects herself while Forrest watches. And then she offers some to him, turns on the flashlight on her phone to help her find a vein, and injects it into him. Now, one of the investigators who saw this clip said it did look like Forrest was maybe a little nervous and out of his element. Like he wasn't completely comfortable looking in this footage. Yeah, but he was going along with it. However things go Sideways. Pretty quickly after this, Forrest starts clutching his chest near his heart. He starts to lose consciousness. And the mystery woman does go over to help him. It looks like she is trying to revive him. She's kind of patting him on the face, talking to him as he slumped over in a chair. She doesn't call 91 1, though. She doesn't yell for help. Instead, she gets up, she starts wiping off the boat.

B (21:43)

Oh, man.

A (21:45)

Police later realize she's wiping her fingerprints. Yeah, off the boat. And then as she's doing this, Forrest falls onto the floor. And then she literally steps over his body, his dying body on the floor. With a glass of wine still in her hand, she lowers a blind and collects her things. Steps over him a few more times over the next seven minutes. She calmly finishes her wine and then leaves the boat. So not how you would expect someone to react to someone possibly overdosing.

B (22:26)

Not that. Not that it matters, but she's also high, right?

A (22:30)

And she herself is doing illegal drugs.

B (22:33)

So, I mean, so I guess. I guess it kind of is what you would expect in a sense.

A (22:37)

So naturally, the next question is, who is this mystery woman and what does she know about the death of Forest Hayes? So the next step is to look into forest cell phone usage. And after doing a bit of digging, detectives find that Forrest had a profile on a website called seekingarangement.com apparently the website strictly prohibits women from soliciting sex, but it's the kind of place women go to to look for like a sugar daddy.

B (23:08)

Okay. Yeah.

A (23:08)

And through that profile, they were able to see who Forest was communicating with prior to his death. And they land on one woman who looks a heck of a lot like the person in the security footage on the boat. It's a woman with long black hair and tattoos. And they soon learn that she is a 26 year old aspiring model named Alex Tickleman.

B (23:33)

Kevin.

A (23:36)

So let's learn a little bit about Alex. She was born in Canada in 1988 and later moved to Atlanta, Georgia, earning her dual citizenship in both countries. She too was from a pretty affluent family. Her father was a tech entrepreneur and a pro poker player. Apparently a really good one too, since some friends say he won around $400,000 once in a game, which apparently allowed Alex's mom to stay at home and raise the family. Now growing up, Alex was said to be an intelligent and creative person with a knack for writing. But after falling in with the wrong crowd, Alex began battling eating disorders, experimenting with drugs, self harm. Some of her friends said this began around the time Alex learned that her father had been living a double life with an entire other family in Oregon.

B (24:27)

Real quick, it's. It's sad when this stuff happens because the family now has to have all this stuff come out publicly, like the wife, the kids. I mean, there's just zero privacy, and the wife didn't do anything.

A (24:40)

Right. So the parents are going through this, and I think it's safe to say that their top concern was not getting their daughter help, because they sent Alex off to this special school in Maine, where she confided in her new friends that she now had a lot of issues trusting men. However, from the way some of Alex's classmates described it, this school in Maine might have been one of these troubled teen facilities, because there, Alex was actually forced to do a lot of manual labor and was said to be physically punished if she stepped out of line. And when this school didn't help, Alex was shipped off to a different one in Utah, where one of her former roommates said they would actually get locked up against their will. And honestly, it seems like these schools probably did more damage than good. Not feeling like she had the support she needed, Alex eventually moved to San Francisco, where she began working in strip clubs as an exotic dancer. And then around 2010, she turned to sex work. But it was clear to a lot of people who knew Alex that she had demons that she was battling internally during this time in her life. By her early 20s, Alex's drug habit went from pills to heroin. She even wrote a poem about it on her Facebook profile in November of 2010. Titling the piece heroin, it reads, this private downward spiral, this suffocating black hole makes you feel so warm inside, yet makes your heart so cold. Each day takes its toll, and your thoughts become emotionless. Your soul feels too old. The demons whisper to me ever so lightly. He never lets go of his hold. Taking everything from me. I'll end up dying alone.

B (26:27)

Oh, so disappointing, yet so sad at the same time.

A (26:30)

But it wasn't all darkness and despair for Alex. She also wrote about some things in her life that she was looking forward to. Modeling jobs, makeup tutorials, how she was working on writing a novel. Though it seems like Alex still carried a lot of trauma from her younger years. And she never really trusted her parents again after this, because while they did have the resources to help her out, Alex refused to take their money. And one friend recalled her desperately trying to come up with $800 to fix her car when it broke down, which was ultimately what led her to a little site Called Seeking arrangements dot com. Place where Alex could find her own sugar daddy and not have to worry about asking her real dad for money. And while Forrest and Alex seem to have been chatting on the site for a while, they had actually only met up once before this night on the boat. And it was a lunch date, which Forrest allegedly paid her $3,000 to attend.

B (27:27)

Holy crap.

A (27:28)

He didn't use his real name, of course. Instead, he told Alex that his name was Tim.

B (27:32)

$3,000?

A (27:34)

Yeah, for lunch. Go up.

B (27:38)

Okay.

A (27:39)

We shouldn't knock it unless we've tried it.

B (27:41)

No, we shouldn't try it or knock it.

A (27:44)

Oh, okay. And apparently, for their second meeting, Tim asked Alex if she would bring some heroin so they could have a little party on his yacht.

B (27:56)

Okay.

A (27:57)

So at this point, police have footage of Alex injecting forest with heroin and leaving the scene when he's very clearly dying and in distress. Plus, they have physical proof of their connection and their correspondence leading up to that day. Which, just to make it clear, this is illegal. Not just the drugs, but it's illegal to leave someone on a boat overdosing.

B (28:17)

And not all police, I would assume, in a sense, it's manslaughter because she injected it into, like, she injected heroin into his bloodstream.

A (28:27)

So police feel pretty certain that Alex Tickleman has played some role in forest death. So for the next eight months or so, the Santa Cruz police start tracking Alex on social media. And when Alex posts something about her plans to move back to Georgia, police realize they have to make their move before she actually leaves the state. So an undercover officer creates a profile on seeking arrangements.com with a fake name and a fake backstory. He connects with Alex, and the two start texting and emailing each other for a bit so he can build her trust. And then finally, on July 4, 2014, he asks Alex if she'd be willing to make a three hour drive from her home in Sacramento to meet up at a place called the Seascape Beach Resort. The police even deposit a couple hundred bucks into her account, and the undercover cop says he will give her the rest when they meet in person. Now, what's funny is Alex calls them out on this and says, hey, your rate is really low. They were only paying her.

B (29:29)

Yeah, she's made 3,000 bucks for a lunch. They're gonna have to pay her more than that.

A (29:32)

Well, they were only promising her another thousand for when she gets there. She's like, most of my clients pay double. But for one reason or another, Alex takes the bait. And when she Walks into the hotel and sees the undercover cop. She goes to give him a hug, only he doesn't really hug her back because he has a bulletproof vest underneath his shirt. And so when she hugs him, she feels it. And that's when she immediately realizes what's going on. Officers swarm her and her first thought is, why are so many police here just to arrest me for sex work?

B (30:08)

Okay?

A (30:08)

She's like, this feels like overkill. Well, it's that July day that she's taken down to the station in handcuffs. And it's not until she gets there and is under full interrogation she learns for the first time that Forest Hayes actually died that night on the boat.

B (30:26)

Did she not think he died or did she think no one saw because she didn't know the cameras were there?

A (30:31)

Police aren't really buying it. Like, she acts surprised and is like, well, I had no idea he died. I just left. And they're like, okay. So the Following Wednesday, the 26 year old Alex Tickleman is charged with multiple drug related felonies. Three misdemeanors for prostitution, destroying evidence and manslaughter. And the person who is maybe the most shocked by the news of Alex's arrest is actually her boyfriend, Chad Cornell. Now, Chad is just an average guy, A construction worker who writes and plays music in his spare time.

B (31:06)

Hey, I love those blue collar workers.

A (31:08)

He thought he was dating your average model. Sure, maybe a swimsuit campaign here and there. He believed the extent of her online work was makeup tutorials. So when she would get all dressed up and go off to meet a client, she told Chad she was just headed out to modeling shoot, which was how she made her money. So it wasn't until someone sent him a link to a news article that he learned that his girlfriend had been arrested not just for prostitution, but in connection to the death of a high powered Google executive. But slowly the pieces start to fall into place and he realizes, wait a second. I was with Alex right before Forrest died that night. He realizes the night this all happened, he and Alex were hanging out. And she said one of her old high school friends was in Santa Cruz, that they had rented a boat. She was going to go meet them.

B (31:59)

Them.

A (32:00)

But later that night, Alex called Chad sounding really upset. She said some of her friends had started doing heroin and other hardcore drugs and it made her feel so uncomfortable and so she left. Chad said on this call, Alex was crying, she was sniffling like she something was wrong. So now police have an eyewitness that can almost confirm, confirm that she probably did know that he died on the boat. So Alex was appointed a public defender by the state. Her bail was set to $1.5 million. But Alex has a very different take on what happened that day with Forrest, and it's a fairly convincing story. So she claims that Forrest did pay her to come to the boat that day, and he was the one who asked her to bring the heroin. In fact, she said they never even had sex. Forrest only seemed interested in partying with her. She claimed she didn't know that Forrest had been drinking and had taken Valium earlier that day. And he seemed pretty sober when she got there. She said if she had known that he was on all these other substances, she never would have even offered him the drugs. She said she did try to revive him, which we do sort of see in the video with her slapping his face to try to get him to come too. And she said the reason she was spotted wandering around the boat, collecting her things and finishing her wine was because she was in shock and panic.

B (33:29)

This is interesting, because I don't know how you go about this. I mean, they were both doing something illegal. Drugs. I've always found it really interesting. Like, when two people are doing drugs, one person dies. Like, is the other one really held responsible? Like, you're both doing something wrong, and, like, he's obviously was aware that he was doing heroin.

A (33:55)

Accidental death, right?

B (33:56)

Yeah. Like, other than that, like, this is.

A (33:58)

Where it just goes case to case.

B (34:00)

It's hard.

A (34:01)

And I don't know, this is where I really feel for victims, families, because.

B (34:07)

I mean, there's so many layers.

A (34:09)

Yes.

B (34:10)

Like, he was talking to someone online. He. Like, there's just so many layers to the case that makes it super complicated.

A (34:18)

I mean, if someone accidentally hits someone with a car and that person dies, it's manslaughter.

B (34:24)

Yeah, but.

A (34:25)

But sometimes people don't go to prison.

B (34:27)

Yeah, but that's almost even a little different. Right.

A (34:29)

It's like, there's nothing illegal happening.

B (34:31)

Yes. It's like if you both were driving a car, which is not possible, though. You both can't be driving a car.

A (34:37)

They weren't standing in the road being like, are you gonna hit me?

B (34:39)

Yeah. Like, it's.

A (34:40)

Yeah.

B (34:41)

It's such a complicated case, it seems. I mean, we'll see. I'm sure there's more that'll come out that'll maybe clear things up a little bit.

A (34:47)

Well, Alex also says I was under the influence of heroin at the time. Like, I wasn't thinking clearly. Like, I knew that he had money. I knew he had a high profile job. I knew he had a wife, I knew he had kids. She was like, how am I just supposed to call and then be like, oh yeah, like I'm. She said she just, she didn't know what to do.

B (35:07)

And he's also not doing things against his will. Like he met up with her. I mean, he knew he had a wife at home.

A (35:14)

According to when she got in her car, she was debating whether or not to call 91 1. Like once she kind of came to a little bit, she was like, do I? Should I just call and leave and then let. But ultimately, as we know, she didn't. But she said it was something that she had thought about and regretted every single day since it happened. Though ultimately, she said she never thought the dose was enough to kill Forrest. She thought he had just passed out and was going to wake up the next day and get back to his life. What's interesting is after her arrest, a lot of people do come forward in defense of Alex saying, hey, she has a big heart. She's a sweet girl. She just took a wrong turn. She had zero qualities of a cold blooded killer. She's not a murderer. But then something unexpected happens. Alex Tickleman enters the courtroom one day before her trial to say she's pleading guilty to involuntary manslaughter and administering drugs. She is sentenced to six years in a local jail with credit for time served. But there's another reveal. After the guilty plea, Boris family actually comes forward and said, hey, we were never interested in pressing charges against Alex. Like, we were just ready to move on, close this chapter, grieve our loved one. This is like trial and everything is not necessarily what we wanted. Still, that guilty plea keeps Alex in jail for the next three years before she's released early on good behavior. She also gets sober during this time, which she says actually does help her turn her life around. Though once Alex completed her jail sentence In March of 2017, she was deported back to Canada where she was born. But for Alex, it was a fresh start, A new chapter where she was clean, she was sober, she got a job working in the hospitality industry. She has since come forward and said that she thinks about Forest every single day ever since his death.

B (37:03)

Yeah.

A (37:03)

However, this is not the end of the story.

B (37:06)

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A (39:04)

I've said this before, but I love to just keep up with Spanish on Babel. As you know, Garrett is fluent in Spanish and so whenever we go anywhere and he uses it, I just felt a little left out. And that is where Babel comes in to save me.

B (39:19)

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A (39:39)

I want you to learn another language. So I'm teaming up with Babel to gift you 55% off subscriptions, but only for our listeners@babel.com husband you guys 55 get up to 55% off@babel.com husband spelled b a b b e l.com husband babel.com husband rules and restrictions may apply in September of 2018, a grand jury in Georgia remember this is where she moved filed new charges Against Alex Tickleman. After she is released from jail, goes back to Canada, starts over with her life. Charges of felony murder and distribution of heroin and oxycodone. This time in connection to another man, her ex boyfriend and owner of a popular Atlanta music venue, 53 year old Dean Riopel.

B (40:39)

Okay, so they filed these charges after in 2018. And when was this? When did this take place?

A (40:46)

In 2011, 2012.

B (40:48)

Oh, wow.

A (40:49)

Okay, so it kind of comes to the surface that this is not just like a one time incident with her where a man dies around her.

B (40:57)

Yeah.

A (40:58)

So here's what happened around 2011, 2012, Alex and Dean were introduced. They immediately began dating. Dean wanted to help Alex cleanse herself of her inner demons, sort of erase her past. But at the same time, Alex and Dean shared a very particular hobby. They were both into bondage and bondage clubs. Alex said Dean liked to take her out to clubs on a collar and a leash. And she said it was something she was really into as well. But outside of those interests, people did say their relationship seemed normal. They moved in together. Dean bought Alex a promise ring. Two talked about getting married. Alex even posted on Facebook in 2012, quote, Life is great. I'm seriously blessed as a mother. Effer a great boyfriend, nice house. Monkeys. Yes, they had pet monkeys.

B (41:45)

Oh, no. Nah. Nope. Lines drawn, not okay.

A (41:49)

Loving family, she said, doesn't get better than this. I think it truly seemed like Alex was happy. But there was one problem. Dean hated that Alex had a heroin problem. She couldn't kick. Everyone who knew Dean said he was pretty straight edge when it came to drugs and alcohol. So this was the one thing about their lifestyle that did not align. But Dean was willing to do everything in his power to help Alex get on the straight and narrow. He paid for her to go to rehab. In August 2013, he bought her an engagement ring and told her if she stayed clean for 14 months, they would get married on Halloween night in 2014. Now, unfortunately, Alex only lasted a week. And then September 7th, Dean discovers something heartbreaking. Alex had created an online account and was soliciting sex work so she could pay for her drug habit. Now, according to one of Dean's good friends, that's when things start to fall apart for Dean. Part of him wanted Alex out of his life, but the other part of him loved her and didn't know how to help her make these positive changes. So in order for them to kind of stay together, Dean begins drinking. And then on September 17, 2013, Alex called 911. She said she was in the shower. She heard a crash. And when she got out, she found Dean unconscious. She claimed she had tried to revive him for about five minutes before calling for help. Dean was rushed to the hospital. He died a week later. His autopsy report listed his death as an accidental overdose from heroin, oxycodone, and alcohol. A few weeks later, on October 30, Alex moved to California to start fresh. He immediately went on seeking arrangements.com to start making money again. And three weeks later, Alex was with Forest Hayes on his boat.

B (43:36)

Holy crap.

A (43:37)

Finding herself in an almost identical situation just two months after the last. Okay, so cut back to 2018. Alex, after being released from prison for Forrest's death, is now facing charges for Dean's. And as of this recording, she has yet to go to trial for Dean's case.

B (43:58)

Whoa.

A (43:59)

Because it's currently on judicial hold. But she's in Canada, which means they have to get her extradited back to.

B (44:06)

The US and sometimes it's not. What's the word? Important enough. Like, sometimes it's just. They're not gonna extradite you if they don't think it's worth it. I don't know.

A (44:15)

So in the meantime, there's now a lot of questions about Alex and her motives. I mean, is it like. Yes. Is it possible that this accidentally happens twice around you?

B (44:28)

I think when you're doing that heavy of drugs. Yeah, I think it's pretty.

A (44:31)

But everyone in Dean's life says, no, he had just started drinking. He wasn't doing drugs. So we. I mean, there's. There is a side of people who.

B (44:40)

Believe, which I totally get and understand. I think I would believe them if there wasn't video footage of Forest literally allowing to be injected. Because Dean could have very well done the same thing. Not saying he didn't. After seeing, I guess, what Forrest did, I'd be surprised if she just started going around forcing people to do heroin. I. I don't know. These are just my thoughts.

A (45:07)

These are my thoughts. I don't. I believe what happened with Forest was an accident.

B (45:11)

Now, with Dean, I don't know.

A (45:14)

Do. Is there a lack of responsibility here?

B (45:18)

Oh, 100%.

A (45:19)

Should she be held accountable for the fact that she didn't call and attempt to get help?

B (45:24)

Yes, 110%.

A (45:26)

Again, Dean's case hasn't gone to trial, but in Dean's case, there were reports of a domestic disturbance between him and Alex days before his death. She called the police, saying Dean had thrown her to the ground. And Dean told the police she had taken pills, drank too much, and they got in a fight over her, exposing her breasts at his club. Now, apparently, after that, Alex also bit Dean on the finger and threatened to hit herself and make it look like Dean had done it. However, Alex was the one arrested for battery that day, not Dean. And then just a few weeks later, Dean was dead. So it's going to make this case complicated if we ever do see it go to trial.

B (46:11)

This is so complicated. I mean, first of all, I feel extremely bad for Forrest's family. I'm sure it sounds like they want to move on past it, so I won't address that too much. Second of all, don't do drugs.

A (46:24)

The thing is, is, like, Forrest's case is probably gonna be a huge part.

B (46:30)

It'll be a big part of it.

A (46:31)

You can't talk about Dean's death without talking about Forrest. Without talking about Forrest death. But also, I do think it is important to hold her responsible for the mistakes that she did make. But these cases are so intertwined because they have, like. It's just one of those cases where you're like, what?

B (46:47)

It's hard because I feel like I have a lot of. I don't know if I say friends, but acquaintances where I hear about this stuff where they're into heavy drugs and they do heavy drugs and they have drug issues, and all these, quote, unquote, unlucky and unfortunate things happen in their lives. And it's like, well, how many coincidences can we have before it's the cause of doing drugs or doing something that we shouldn't be doing? You know, it's.

A (47:10)

Yeah, I think it's hard. I think where I stand on that is addiction is a devil. Addiction is a demon.

B (47:17)

Yeah.

A (47:17)

And when you are stuck in the throes of addiction, most likely other parts of your life are going to begin to fall apart. It's just. It's heartbreaking. It's not just heartbreaking to you. There's victims. There's other people, you know, and so I think what Garrett's trying to say is this isn't a coincidence. If you're into hard drugs, things like this can happen.

B (47:38)

And, I mean, you should be held responsible. So. Yeah.

A (47:41)

So I also think it's important that in a Facebook post, Alex had said, quote, it's really nice to talk with someone about killing sprees and murdering people in cold blood, because they love it, too. Now, as a true crime enthusiast, I don't know if she's coming at this from true crime or if she's coming at this from. There's something wrong here.

B (48:03)

Okay. Well, the problem is the way she said it was very unlike true crime. I don't think there's many of our.

A (48:08)

Listeners who I will say back then we weren't as conscious around the verbiage we used in true crime.

B (48:16)

So that's some crazy verbiage.

A (48:17)

Yeah. On the other hand, in Alex's defense, there are people who have come forward and said Dean was on a bender in the days before his overdose. Said he was convinced that Dean actually was experimenting with drugs to try and get closer to Alex. So in the end, we are left to wonder, is this all a terrible coincidence for Alex or is there something more nefarious going on here? Here, there's one thing I can say for sure. It's that life always offers temptations. It's our job to remember all of the beautiful things we have, weigh the consequences, get help, heal, and decide is it really worth risking it all? And that is the case of Forest Hayes and possibly Dean Riopel.

B (48:59)

That's an interesting one. Kind of a little different than our other cases. I don't know. I don't really have too much to say.

A (49:05)

Well, because it doesn't feel like cold blooded murder in either situation.

B (49:08)

No. But I also do feel sorry. You're obviously for. For family, but. Yeah, it doesn't seem like nothing. Seems like cold blooded murder. I don't think it was. I guess we'll see if, like Dean's case ever comes to fruition. I don't think it will because I don't think she will be extradited. I don't think it's a top priority, I would assume, but we'll find out.

A (49:27)

This is why they say not even once.

B (49:29)

Not even once.

A (49:30)

Not even once. All right, you guys, that is our episode and we will see you next time with another one. I love it and I hate it. Goodbye, Monday sidekick. The AI agent that knows you and.

B (49:48)

Your business thinks ahead and takes action. Ask it anything Seriously, Monday sidekick.

A (49:54)

AI you'll love to use. Start a free trial today on Monday.com.