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- [00:00]
A
Take the exit, turn right into the drive thru. Nope, I'm making dinner tonight. You don't have time. Josh has practice. Oh, that's right. I'll just get a salad and fries. No, just the salad. But salad cancels. Fries. Salad only. Fries. Salad, fries. Food noise isn't fair, but Mochi Health is the affordable glp. One source that puts you on the road to successful weight loss. Hey, can I get the fries? Salad? Sorry. Learn more@joinmochi.com Mochi members have access to licensed physicians and nutritionists. Results may vary.
- [00:30]
B
All right guys, we're jumping into an ad real quick and it is Shopify. Shopify is amazing. I have been using it for five, six, seven years now. They are the best. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Murder with My Husband to brands just getting started. If you are interested at all about selling anything online or curious what that looks like, you need to go check out Shopify. Get started with your own design studio. With hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store that matches your brand style.
- [01:14]
A
And best yet, Shopify is your commerce expert. With world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping, to processing returns and beyond, it is time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com husband. Go to shopify.com husband that is shopify.com husband. You're listening to an Ono Media podcast. Hey everyone, welcome back to the podcast. This is Murder with My Husband. I'm Peyton Moreland.
- [01:48]
B
And I'm Garrett Moreland.
- [01:49]
A
And he's the husband.
- [01:50]
B
And I'm the husband.
- [01:51]
A
Thank you guys so much, so much for being here and for constantly supporting the show. We love you guys more than you know. And honestly, I hope you are having an amazing week. Just a reminder, we do have merch available if you want to go check it out. You can find the link to that on our Instagram.
- [02:10]
B
Big, big, huge ginormous announcement. Nothing to do with the podcast. I announced my Bagel Shop name. There's an Instagram account for the Bagel Shop. I'm posting on it. We're opening. Honestly, probably within two months. I'm stressed. There's a lot going on. Busy, spent all day plumbing something that didn't work. That's okay. Life goes on. Anyways, if you want to support this is probably the last time I'll mention it. For a Second, so I don't annoy anyone. But the Instagram account to my bagel shop will be below. You can go check it out. Going to be posting bagel content. I'm going to be posting business content on what it's like opening a bagel shop. All the equipment that's coming in just kind of A through Z, the whole building process. So go and check it out if you are interested. And that can be my 10 seconds. Like I said, I was plumbing earlier and it's just not working and it's making me so mad. And now we're recording and all I can think about is how I can't fix this plumbing issue. And that's my life, you know, crazy life. Plumbing Bagels podcast.
- [03:18]
A
You don't want to tell the listeners the name?
- [03:20]
B
No, you have to go check it out. Gotta go look. If you want to know the name, you gotta go look.
- [03:24]
A
Okay, Tell them what you were plumbing.
- [03:26]
B
Peyton's vanity sink. There's just a bunch of issues. The way it was installed. It's just like a bunch of Lego pieces. And it shouldn't be a bunch of Lego pieces, but I have to make it a bunch of Lego pieces. So I just ordered a bunch of stuff from Home Depot. It should be here in a bit, but we're gonna go eat after this and then I'm gonna try to fix it tonight. I don't know. It's crazy if you can't tell. I'm a little frustrated, but I'm trying not to be. And, yeah, that's what I got.
- [03:54]
A
All right, you ready for the episode?
- [03:55]
B
Let's do it.
- [03:56]
A
You guys ready for the episode? Yeah. Just kidding. All right, let's get into it. Our sources for this episode are CBS news.com usatoday.com NBC washington.com cbs6albany.com wjla.com theindependent.com Augusta free press.com ffxnow.com TMZ wusa9.com and Washington Post. So part of the reason we are so fascinated with true crime is because we want to get inside the minds of the people who commit these crimes, try and understand what makes a monster. Which leads to questions like, how does someone even become a serial killer? If someone killed with intention once, does it mean that they're going to do it again?
- [04:48]
B
Yes.
- [04:49]
A
Or can those impulses be channeled elsewhere?
- [04:52]
B
No.
- [04:53]
A
Especially when they walked away from their crime completely undetected. And Gareth's saying yes and no, but it is very heard of of not just random killers, but serial killers. Who one day just stop the Golden State Killer.
- [05:08]
B
But did they?
- [05:10]
A
Yes, btk.
- [05:12]
B
But like, did they actually stop the Golden State Killer? Yes, but how do we know?
- [05:18]
A
He said so.
- [05:20]
B
BTK also said, but can we trust them?
- [05:22]
A
They had such a severe movie.
- [05:25]
B
I know, I just. They've lied their entire lives.
- [05:28]
A
Yeah, I get that.
- [05:28]
B
I just, I think I refuse to trust.
- [05:30]
A
Right.
- [05:31]
B
Yeah. I don't know. I don't think like, I think what actually probably happens if the opportunity presented.
- [05:38]
A
Itself, they would do it again.
- [05:40]
B
They would do it again.
- [05:41]
A
They just weren't searching out.
- [05:42]
B
I think they weren't searching out. Then we got older, things got harder. But I think if the opportunity presented itself in front of them, they'd be.
- [05:50]
A
Like, yeah, you know what's interesting?
- [05:52]
B
I think it's probably a bad thing to compare it to, but I mean for those who are like sober. Right. And trying to quit alcohol. Is that what you're going to say?
- [06:01]
A
Stuff like that. Exactly what I was like.
- [06:02]
B
They try to either stay away from alcohol or they try to distance themselves from X amount, X drug, whatever it is because they know if the opportunity presents itself, it makes it harder. Which not comparing that to serial killers because completely different.
- [06:16]
A
They compare it in their minds. I've heard multiple interviews from serial killers who kill because they have urges to. And they say I was trying my best not to. I was trying to avoid situations that would put me.
- [06:29]
B
I just hate that because I just think they're such evil people. I hate giving them the. What's the word? Not benefit of the doubt, but the chance that there's an another reasonable explanation, I guess is what I'm trying to say.
- [06:45]
A
No reasonable.
- [06:46]
B
And I know you and I probably disagree on this. I just think if you kill evil person, leave society.
- [06:52]
A
I don't disagree with that.
- [06:54]
B
Yeah, I think I disagree with. This is kind of long intro.
- [06:57]
A
It's fine.
- [06:57]
B
Like reformation or reformation, whichever, however you want to say. I just, I disagree with that. When someone kills somebody, I think I.
- [07:05]
A
Can in all situations.
- [07:07]
B
Not manslaughter, first degree, second degree murder. Yes. Yeah. I think if you can cross that line, you are.
- [07:16]
A
What if it was one time versus serial killer?
- [07:20]
B
Like what's the one time consist of? Like domestic abuse or anything. Yeah.
- [07:25]
A
Gang violence.
- [07:26]
B
I just think once you cross that line of killing somebody, like first, second degree murder. I think there is, I am, I dare to say a hundred percent of the time, if the opportunity presented itself again, they would do it. Yeah.
- [07:41]
A
Even if the motive was very specific.
- [07:44]
B
Yeah.
- [07:45]
A
Interesting.
- [07:46]
B
Yeah. I don't Know, it's just.
- [07:48]
A
I mean, Israel Keys, for instance, okay, he claimed that he would rob banks in place of killing people because it held off his urges. It like calmed him down enough to like feed the adrenaline and the urge he was having. But then eventually robbing banks or doing other things weren't enough and he would end up killing.
- [08:09]
B
Exactly.
- [08:10]
A
Which is. So the mind is just a pattern that repeats and repeats and repeats.
- [08:15]
B
I think once a killer, always a killer. Okay, Like I said, always first degree, second degree. I think manslaughter and other, other situations are unique.
- [08:24]
A
But yeah, can you walk away? Can you be done? Which is why today's story is unique. It is about a case that ran cold for decades. And then a new technology led to a breakthrough and a killer that was never once suspected. He had a job, he had a family. He had a completely normal life, actually more common than you would think, which had him asking many of these questions about himself. Why did I kill? And was the monster still living inside of him, just waiting to be unleashed once more, as Garrett would say. So with that, let's head back to 1994 to a bustling suburb outside of Washington, D.C. called Springfield, Virginia. That is where 37 year old artist and mother Robyn Lawrence is living her peaceful life now. Robin was described as a gentle soul who always had a smile on her face. She was also someone who had a lot to be proud of. At 37, she was in a happy marriage. She had a two year old little girl, a job as the director of advertising for a tire company, and she was also the daughter of the first black man to be a counselor on the Syracuse Common Council in New York. This is the legislative body of the local government there. But Robyn's passions were different from her father's. She attended Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and graduated with a fine arts degree. Everyone who knew her said she was an extremely gifted artist, especially when it came to pencil sketches and watercolors. It's not shocking. She graduated in the arts. And after graduating, she was actually selected to create the first medal for the Martin Luther King Jr. Nonviolent peace prize. This was an award that was actually then given to Rosa Parks. Then she later moved to Washington D.C. where she met her husband Ollie. And friends said Ollie and Robin were perfect for each other. Ollie completely matched Robin's demeanor. He was also easygoing. He made people feel comfortable around him. He was a warm man with a kind smile. And on New Year's Eve 1989, the two tied the knot. And then three years later, they had their daughter Nicole. Now by then Robin had her job in advertising I talked about earlier. And Ollie was an executive for an airline. So in 1994, when Nicole, the daughter, was about 2, the couple was living this very domesticated life. Ollie traveled quite a bit for work, but Robin made the most of her husband's time away. She would work on her art, she, she would do some improvements around the home. They really were living the American dream, content to live out their days as this happy little family in suburbia. That was until November 20, 1994. Now that week, Ollie had been away on a work trip in the Bahamas. And after not hearing from robin for about 48 hours or so, he decided to call Robin's good friend and neighbor, Lori Lindbergh. So he's in the Bahamas, he's trying to get a hold of his wife back home. She's not answering. 48 hours go by, he calls her friend and neighbor Lori. Now Lori and Robin had been close for years. They met back in Washington D.C. at a ballet class. They had quickly become friends. They eventually got an apartment together and were roommates before Robin met Ollie and then moved out to live with him. So this wasn't just any neighbor. When Laurie heard from Ollie, she was nervous too, because Robin is a pretty long term friend of hers. So Laurie gets up and she walks over to Robin's home and knocks on the front door, but there is no answer. So Laurie decides to go around back. And she saw one of the back window screens of the family home was cut. And so this is when she realizes something is probably wrong. So she actually climbs in through the window, which I totally understand why she did, but 0 out of 10 recommend because nowadays we know that there's probably so much evidence in that window, but I don't think back then that was common knowledge. So she climbs in and she starts calling Robin's name. Obviously desperate and worried about her friend. But it wasn't Robyn who appeared. Instead, two year old baby Nicole.
- [13:21]
B
Oh no.
- [13:23]
A
Came wandering up to her, looking at.
- [13:25]
B
Her, that's so sad.
- [13:27]
A
With these giant eyes and this blank expression on her face. And that's when Laurie's heart sank. She continued toward the primary bedroom, noticing blood all over the walls and large splatters of blood on the floor. And when she notices all of this, sees the state of two year old Nicole, she decides, I'm not even going to step into the bedroom. This is her dear friend. She knows something is terribly wrong. So she picks up Nicole. Yeah, she gets out of the house and dials 91 1.
- [14:02]
B
That's horrible.
- [14:04]
A
Now, moments later, the police arrived to the scene and it was around 12:30pm when they entered the house and found Robin's body face down on the floor of the primary bedroom with a pillow between her legs. She had extensive knife wounds all over her body. The autopsy would later count 49 stab wounds to her body. Now, the phone was also on the floor next to Robin, but the cord had been cut.
- [14:38]
B
Okay.
- [14:39]
A
Officials determined by this point, Robin had been dead for about two days, which if you're putting two and two together, means yes, her two year old daughter had been left alone by herself with her mother's body for that long. Now, meanwhile, Lori took Nicole to the hospital for treatment. Remember, we are in 1994. Now, thankfully, Nicole was completely unharmed in the attack, but I mean, she has been alone for two days. However, Nicole had undergone a liver transplant in the past, so she was on immunosuppressive medications that she now hadn't taken in two days. So her health was fragile. Luckily, she was discharged shortly after she was treated for dehydration. Now, of course, the psychological damage for those last two days would likely never go away. But back at the scene, detectives were trying to piece together what had happened. And they realized that the last time anyone had heard from Robin was around 6pm on the night of Friday, November 18th.
- [15:50]
B
I mean, sadly, I think as soon as you see the screens cut, like, you instantly know what's going on. Like, you know something bad happened because no one goes and cuts people's screens for no reason.
- [16:02]
A
You know, you really are driving to the conclusion someone's dead in there for sure.
- [16:08]
B
I don't think dead or taken.
- [16:11]
A
I think most people would err on the, like, bright side and be, oh, that branch.
- [16:16]
B
Just like hit the screen and cut it.
- [16:19]
A
No, but just like, hopefully it's a robbery and they're tied up inside.
- [16:23]
B
Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah, I think, I think after doing so many of these cases.
- [16:27]
A
Yeah.
- [16:29]
B
Just always expect the worst.
- [16:31]
A
This is also 1994. I mean, we have forensic files on TV, but when I was born.
- [16:35]
B
Yep.
- [16:36]
A
I don't know if as many people were as like, pessimistic on their safety as people are today.
- [16:41]
B
Yeah, it's true.
- [16:42]
A
Pessimistic isn't even the word. Realistic.
- [16:44]
B
Yeah.
- [16:45]
A
About their safety. All right, you guys, we are jumping into an ad, and if you don't know, Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps you lower your bills so you can grow your savings. I know we've talked about it before, but Garrett and I love using Rocket Money. We have realized that we are both paying for the same subscription through this and they have added so many amazing features that I kind of want to touch on right now.
- [17:12]
B
Again, like Peyton said, I just want to say I honestly use Rocket Money all the time. I mean, we have a subscription for it. We love it. It is probably one of the best finance apps out there. The fact that it can organize all of my credit cards, debit cards, bank accounts all into one place and I can see everything clearly helps me out so much.
- [17:32]
A
You can even set budgets and goals, get personalized insights and regular reports like it is a personal finance app that helps you save, monitors your spending. The app even consolidates checking, savings, loans and investments into a single dashboard so you get a really clear picture of what's going on financially.
- [17:52]
B
One of the cool things is they have a like pay what you think is fair type of thing. Like you can do like a free model. You can do a paid model. It's amazing.
- [18:02]
A
Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster. Join@RocketMoney.com husband that's RocketMoney.com husband RocketMoney.com husband all right you guys, we are getting into an ad and people keep asking about 2026 resolutions. Obviously you have the usual goals, but this year there's a new goal at the top of my list and that is to get comfy. And that's where Bombas comes in. They're bringing serious comfort to all of my everyday go tos. The all new Bombas sport socks are engineered with sport specific comfort for running, golf, hiking, skiing, snowboarding and all sport. This year I actually do really want to try to get into a more physical hobby and these socks are perfect for it. They're cushioned where I need it most, sweat wicking and loaded with other tech features to keep me comfy and locked in. And for those everyday around the house resolutions, bombas also has you covered with the comfiest footwear imaginable and underneath it all, the softest base layers that will have you rethinking your entire wardrobe. Bombas underwear and T shirts are flexible, breathable and buttery smooth. And my favorite part is for every item you purchase, an essential clothing item is donated to someone facing housing insecurity. One purchased, one donated. With over 150 million donations and counting.
- [19:26]
B
Head over to bombas.com husband and use code husband for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O M B A S.com husband code husband at checkout so they're.
- [19:38]
A
Trying to piece together what happened, and they believe that she was killed shortly after she was last heard on Friday, November 18th. At around 9:30 that night, they discovered that Robin had been assaulted, first on the bed and then fought her way down to the floor where the struggle continued. They also found a bunch of bloody tissues all around the house, which they actually believe came from two year old Nicole, who they believe was like subconsciously trying to clean the blood off of her mom because she knew something was wrong. There was also something else in the bathroom, though, that police realized could be important. A washcloth. It was sitting on the towel rod on the shower's sliding glass door, and it had a few spots of blood on it, which investigators thought could actually belong to the killer. So detectives collected a few other blood samples at the scene in case the assailant's DNA was mixed in with Robin's. But when they took it back and ran it through codis, which did exist at this point but was fairly new, they didn't find a match. All they could really tell from the scene beyond that was that this didn't appear to be a robbery. There was were no valuables taken from inside the home. Cash, jewelry and other items were actually still sitting around. And they determined there was no evidence of sexual assault either. It was more just physical assault. So their first instinct was actually that this murder had to be personal. Now, as this is all going on, Lori Lindberg, the friend and neighbor who found Nicole and called police, was actually asked by police to notify Robin's parents about their daughter's death. And when Robin's sister Mary heard the news that her sister had died, she imagined it was from a car accident or a heart attack. She never in a million years thought her sister would be a victim of murder, mainly because it didn't make sense. Not only were the police keeping pertinent information from the family, they knew Robin had no enemies. They and they also felt certain that there was no way Ali would have done this to her. But just three days after what should have been Robyn's 38th birthday, her family and friends were paying their respects at her funeral. Now, because Robyn's injuries were so significant, it was a closed casket ceremony. Her sister Mary said it was incredibly hard because she was never able to lay eyes on her sister one final time. But that funeral was also unsettling for another reason. Based on what little information the police had shared with the family about the murder they felt it had to be someone who knew Robyn, someone who might have been at the funeral with them. A wolf in sheep's clothing. Now, of course, for the police, their first person of interest was the one closest to Robin. And whether the family suspected him or not, it was obviously her husband, Ollie. Now, from the get go, Ollie was always extremely cooperative with the police, not to mention, he was out of the country when his wife was killed in the Bahamas for that business trip. And this was confirmed by detectives, who literally flew down to the Bahamas to check Ollie's alibi in person. But when police start looking into Ollie, he wasn't squeaky clean. They learned Ollie had actually been having an affair with one of his co workers. Okay, Robin didn't seem to know anything about it. So this makes detectives wonder. Could this have been the jealous co worker looking to remove Robin from the equation? Or could Ollie have put the co worker up to it? Or hired a hitman? Well, after looking into this other woman, they find that's not the case. They actually clear her pretty quickly. The affair was an unfortunate scenario, one that probably poured salt in the wound of Robin's family. But they still believed, after looking into everything, Ollie would never do anything to hurt his wife. Plus, Ollie and his mistress had offered up DNA to compare to the blood that was found at the crime scene. And when detectives ran it, they found zero match for either of them. So the unknown DNA on that bloody towel was still a mystery. It didn't belong to Robin or anyone else they were considering as a suspect. And it wasn't matching any of the results in codis. Which meant, over time, Robin's case actually started to run cold. Still, Robin's family refused to let her story disappear. Ollie and Nicole moved out of the house, but Robin's parents actually moved in for a few weeks after hoping that they could just figure something out. Maybe the killer would return, maybe a new clue would surface. Maybe someone would respond to the reward they had posted about getting more information. But the years passed with no new leads. Eventually, Robin's family came to terms with the possibility that Robyn's case might never be solved. Their daughter was murdered, and they have no idea who did it or why. In fact, Robyn's mother actually passed away in 1994, not knowing what happened to her daughter that November night. So the family tried to move forward, to be okay with just not knowing. That was until 2019. That's when a volunteer with the police department, who's only known by her first name, Liz, is actually asked to take a Look at Robin's cold case. Liz was an amateur genealogist at the time, and she thought Robin's case was a good candidate for her studies, especially since there was unidentified DNA left behind at the crime scene. I mean, this is the perfect case for a modern day DNA solve. So with permission, she submitted that DNA over to a company called Parabon. Nanolabs talked about them before they uploaded it to their databases to see if there was anyone out there who had willingly submitted DNA to ancestry websites who might share a piece of DNA with the unknown assailant. That way, Liz could build out a family tree and hopefully find a relative who might have lived in Robin's area at the time, maybe had a connection to Robin. Now, unfortunately, Parabon didn't have high hopes that this process would work. They said the chances of solving her case this way were basically zero. And if you're wondering, okay, why it was, because when they ran this DNA, they found over 1500 potential cousins.
- [26:49]
B
Oh, my gosh. Okay.
- [26:51]
A
I mean, they have matches. First, second, fourth, fifth, sixth cousins. That means Liz would basically be trying to put together a family tree of 1500 people and then see if any of them had a connection to Robin. They're like, listen, this is gonna take you a long time. We almost have too much DNA to work with a needle in a haystack. What they did learn from that sample, though, was the suspect's ethnicity. Eastern European, about 25% Irish, and a combo of English, Italian, and Scandinavian. Unfortunately, that's all they really had to work off of for a while. That was until 2021, when Parabon reached out about using a new tool to help potentially identify the suspect. In Robin's case, it's actually a really cool tool called DNA phenotyping. And if you don't know what that is, I'm going to explain it as best I can. Basically, it works like this. By analyzing a person's DNA, scientists can now predict what someone might actually look like. They can use the DNA to determine if their skin is fair or dark. Are their eyes likely blue or brown? Do they have a wider jaw? A narrow nose? Are their eyes set close together? You can literally tell this from DNA. And then companies like Parabon work with a forensic artist who can put together a sketch or a 3D rendering based on those features. The one thing DNA can't tell scientists yet, though, is their age. So they can tell what they may have looked like, but they don't know on a ratio of how young to how old. So artists typically render them to match someone in like, their mid-20s, which is exactly what they did for the DNA found at Robin's home. And the sketch they ended up with was a white male with bluish hazel eyes, light brown hair, thin lips, and a narrow chin. The picture is going to be on our Instagram or if you're watching here now, it was time to show Robin's family and friends the picture. To say, hey, we don't know how old, we don't know who, but we have used the DNA to put together a picture of what we think the murderer looked like. Do you know this person? Like, do you recognize this? Is it a neighbor? Is it a friend? A mailman, a gardener? But no one in the family said this guy looked familiar. Even Ollie told current police that the face didn't ring any bells. So the sketch ends up being a bit of a dead end. And police are kind of shocked because, if you remember, they had predicted that the murderer would be someone Robin knew. It was a personal attack because there was no sexual assault. So they're a little shocked that no one recognizes this person. But they continue on.
- [29:51]
B
Okay.
- [29:52]
A
That same volunteer genealogist, Liz, does not give up on Robin's case, despite the fact that the DNA sample had 1500 potential cousins. So little by little, Liz just spends her time checking each potential relative.
- [30:07]
B
Oh, my gosh, that's crazy.
- [30:09]
A
One by one.
- [30:09]
B
I don't blame her.
- [30:10]
A
She's like, I know this is going to take forever. They told me this is like a needle and haystack. But if we have no hits on, on this sketch, I'm just going to spend my extra time going through these.
- [30:19]
B
Might as well.
- [30:20]
A
Three and a half years she spends going through these.
- [30:24]
B
Oh, my gosh.
- [30:25]
A
That's in her spare time.
- [30:27]
B
Horrible.
- [30:28]
A
Just checking, are there any links? And finally, around 2023, she ends up finding two really good candidates in Canada. People that appear to be closely related to the suspect. So she builds out their family trees and she finds that both of those matches actually do have a relative in common. It's a guy who lived in Virginia during the time of the murder. They're getting closer. She figures out he would have been in his 20s at the time, was now a 52 year old man named Stefan Smirk. So when she hands this name over to detectives and they begin looking into the guy, he doesn't raise any immediate red flags. He was a family man who had two kids in high school in Neskiuna, New York. He was a computer programmer who married a defense attorney. He had zero criminal record. He didn't even have a speeding ticket attached to his name. But there were a few things that interested detectives, especially as they looked deeper into his background. Back In November of 1994, the time of the murder, he was stationed at an army base 10 miles from Robin's home, called Fort Myer in Arlington, Virginia. And when they find a copy of his high school yearbook, they realize that it is not too far off from the phenotype sketch that was made of the suspect.
- [32:03]
B
Interesting.
- [32:03]
A
So basically, it's enough for cold case detectives to be like, okay, on paper, he doesn't seem like our guy, but he kind of looks like this sketch, and he was in the area, and the DNA is potential, so we're gonna go talk to him.
- [32:18]
B
Oh, I think it's. I mean, I guess there was no other way at this point that she had to go through all of that.
- [32:23]
A
Yeah, because, like, his DNA isn't the one in the system we need.
- [32:26]
B
This is when you need a chat. GPT and all that stuff. I mean, I'm sure it's more automated now, right? It has to be like. It has to be able to narrow down potential matches.
- [32:38]
A
Well, and I think as someone gets the family trees more connected, you're no longer doing that work. Because not only is she, like, sorting through people, she's building family trees, she's doing genealogy.
- [32:50]
B
Crazy. That's so much work.
- [32:52]
A
So In September of 2020, 3, detectives take a trip north to knock on Stefan's door and remember it had been almost 29 years since. Since Robin's murder.
- [33:02]
B
Oh, my gosh.
- [33:03]
A
So they're like, if he didn't do this, he's probably not going to be able to tell us what he was doing that Friday night. But their point of this trip is not even really to ask. They just want to collect a sample of his DNA, because they're like, we just want to compare it, cross it off our list, know if she was on or if we need to keep going through these potential matches. And that's pretty much what happens, sort of. So they get to Stefan's house, they tell him, hey, we're investigating a cold case from the 90s.
- [33:29]
B
They.
- [33:29]
A
He doesn't really seem fazed by it. And he does willingly offer up a cheek swab. In fact, after inviting them in, he doesn't really ask them any questions. He's not like, okay, what's the cold case? Who's the victim? He. He's just chill. He shows zero interest. He's like, you want my DNA for this? They're like, yeah. He's like, okay. And the police are in and out within a matter of minutes. H It's a bit strange cuz they're like, why didn't he ask any questions? But they're also like, if he has nothing to do with it and he knows he's innocent, he's just like, whatever. He doesn't care. Like, take my DNA. I've never died.
- [34:07]
B
No matter what you do these days, it's like, oh, that's suspicious, right?
- [34:09]
A
So they head back to the hotel that they're staying in, expecting to have a quiet night and return home in the morning, test the DNA. But that doesn't happen. A few hours later, one of the detectives actually gets a phone call and it's from Stefan.
- [34:27]
B
Okay.
- [34:28]
A
He says, hey, I'm actually at the police department. I'm trying to turn myself in, but the doors are locked. This detective's like, what? What are you turning yourself in for? And Stefan's like, murder. All right, you guys, we are getting into an ad. And Quince is all about elevated essentials that feel effortless. If you've listened to this podcast at all, you know I love quints. One of my favorite things is my silk skirts. I have them in all lengths from Quints and I've had them for years. They also have cashmere that is not as expensive as other stores and is so soft and beautiful. Everything you get from Quints is quality. They've got the wardrobe staples with quality that's made to last. 100 organic cotton sweaters, Premium denim made with stretch for all day. Comfortable luxe cotton cashmere blends perfect for the changing seasons. Everything you need for a wardrobe that actually lasts. And Quince uses the highest quality materials like 100% European linen and organic cotton.
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B
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A
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- [37:28]
B
Oh, my gosh, this is insane.
- [37:30]
A
So the detectives are like, hey, what station are you at? We'll come meet you, but in the meantime, you should probably hang up and call 911 and just notify the local authorities as well, because this is not our jurisdiction. So we're also going to need police from here. And that's what Stefan does. He calls 91 1. He's like, hey, I'm at the police station trying to turn myself in for a cold case.
- [37:53]
B
91 1, the address of your emergency. I'm actually here to turn myself in for a cold case crime. You're here to turn yourself in? Well, they collected DNA. So what's your last time?
- [38:05]
A
But at this point, detectives are wondering, why is he doing this? Like, it's not like he even acted scared. This is too easy. This is too easy. We haven't even run the DNA sample yet.
- [38:18]
B
He probably just realized as soon as they took the DNA, he's like, it was only a matter of time.
- [38:23]
A
So they're kind of like, is this real? What's going on? They are actually very careful about how they phrase their questions to him once he's in the interrogation room because they want him to share most of the details to see if he's really telling the truth. Get a pretty strong case. So they're gonna go in, they're not gonna suggest, like you sometimes see, they're really, really gonna hold back. So that there is no coerced confession. This was willingly given. And we have proof because look at all of the details he gave that we did not offer up. So here's what he tells him. Back on November 20, 1994, Stefan was a 22 year old soldier at Fort Worth in Arlington. He was drinking that night with a friend and had taken some ephedrine. This is basically a strong cold medicine. And he said he took it and then he just decided in his head, you know what? I'm gonna kill somebody tonight. He drove around the Lawrence's neighborhood and eventually picked out Robin's house.
- [39:26]
B
Like they think it was drug induced.
- [39:28]
A
Well, I mean, it's only cold medicine. Yeah, I mean, he's a little high, but he's not out of his mind. Tripping.
- [39:34]
B
Yeah.
- [39:36]
A
So he tells police it was completely random. Like Robin's house was a completely random pick. He had no idea who lived there or who he was going to kill once he got inside, which is so risky for a first time kill too. He told the police, quote, there could have been 50 people in that house. I don't know, they could have all had guns and shot me dead. I just honestly wasn't even thinking about it. Stefan said an impulse had just come over him that he couldn't control. So he entered the house from the back wearing a ski mask and leather gloves, began walking through the house. And that's when he found Robin in her primary bedroom. Now, immediately upon seeing him, Robin jumped out of bed. She got down on her knees and started begging for her life.
- [40:19]
B
Oh, that's so awful.
- [40:22]
A
But Stefan, who was a soldier, who didn't even have a speeding ticket, who had never been in trouble before, showed her no mercy. He stabbed her close to 50 times using what he called his combat training that he had been learning. And he also said he noticed that there was a baby asleep in one of the bedrooms and he chose to do nothing. He didn't make a anonymous 911 call to make sure that that baby got rescued. He didn't attack the baby. He fled into the night and let two year old Nicole fend for herself for the next two days until her mother's body was discovered. But Stefan shared something else that gave detectives confirmation. Said Robin had fought back hard. This is something they already knew about the case, but he even Showed them a scar from that attack where Robin had actually clawed him on the face so deep it scarred. And when detectives asked, okay, what did you do in the house? Like, where did you go? Did you go into the bathroom and use a towel to try and clean up? Because this is where they found his blood. He said he couldn't remember, but it was pretty possible that he did, seeing how bad the damage was on his body from her fighting. He very easily could have gone into the bathroom and used a towel to try to, like, clean it up. So after he left that night, Stefan said he tossed the murder weapon into the Chesapeake Bay and. And headed back to the base as if nothing had happened. He took a shower. He tossed his bloody clothes in the dumpster, and then never looked back and never killed again. Even when talking about it right now, though, with police, Stefan showed very little remorse.
- [42:09]
B
Yeah, like, is he a psychopath?
- [42:12]
A
Well, he told detectives. He's like, I don't.
- [42:14]
B
Does he have feelings?
- [42:16]
A
Well, he's like, I don't really feel bad for the family. I don't know them. I didn't know her. She was a completely random stranger.
- [42:22]
B
Yeah, that's called a psychopath.
- [42:24]
A
He said, I actually, like, the only feelings I have about this crime are for my own sake. Because he said, I knew, like, one day my personal freedom could be affected by it. And that's the only, like, feeling I've had about it is, oh, okay.
- [42:38]
B
So for sure, he's got some issues going on.
- [42:40]
A
So, no, Stefan didn't turn himself into police because he felt guilty. Like, I finally got caught. This has been weighing on my shoulders. Police showed up. It actually kind of felt good to get this off my chest. Like, I did it. I'm here. No, that is not what happened. It was because he knew they had his DNA, and he was like, eh, I mean, they're gonna get me. He had gone on to live the next 29 years blending in with society. He received awards for his service in the military.
- [43:08]
B
Holy crap.
- [43:09]
A
He went to rehab. He got sober. He got married. He had two kids. He went back to school.
- [43:13]
B
Oh, my gosh.
- [43:14]
A
He bought a home. He worked a job with a six figure salary. He stole Robin's future and then instead went on to build his own and never kill again.
- [43:27]
B
That's disgusting. Honestly.
- [43:28]
A
And one of the most disturbing parts of that interview, though, was what he said about this monster inside of him. Because detectives are like, hey, so this isn't really adding up on paper. Like, this is pretty unusual for what we see. And he's saying, I just have this monster in me. Like, there's a monster inside of me. And they're like, okay. And he says, quote, I'm married, kids. I honestly believe that if it wasn't.
- [43:55]
B
For my wife and my kids, I.
- [43:56]
A
Probably wouldn't be a serial killer.
- [43:58]
B
So, I mean, honestly, similar to what I said, if the chance presented itself again, he would have done it, but.
- [44:04]
A
He just went a different direction in his life and never did it again.
- [44:07]
B
Oh, my gosh. It's so.
- [44:09]
A
But he admits fully in this interview, like, it's in me. Like, I. I could still do it. Like I could have been a serial killer. I just never, never.
- [44:18]
B
Could you imagine being his wife or his kids?
- [44:20]
A
No. Like what? So after this confession, Stefan was arrested and charged with first degree murder for killing Robin Lawrence. And of course, the police's first call was to Robin's family. I can't imagine how after 29 years, this call felt to them. Like, you just rewoke.
- [44:38]
B
Yeah.
- [44:39]
A
You just awoke something in them that they had probably spent years trying to find somewhere to put. And then you. But then they, you know, at least they have an answer. But it's not. At least because you just reopened a wound. Like, it's just a. Yeah, there's so many.
- [44:54]
B
There's still going to be so many unanswered questions for them, like, why. Why did you do it? Yada, yada, yada.
- [45:00]
A
Well, and I've heard so many different scenarios where families are happy to. You know, there's a. I don't want to say happy, but there's a piece of them that feels a little better knowing what happened. There's families that are like, I wish you never would have told me I had finally gotten to a place where I could live my life and also accept what had happened. And now you've shaken it all up. So some of Robin's other family members had actually lived in New York, not far from where Stefan had spent the last few decades of his life. They were literally living next to their family member's killer. And Robin's niece, Lauren, said some of her closest friends actually lived across the street from Stefan and his family. They had actually been by his house dozens of times. This is her niece. She had been by her aunt's killer's house dozens of times with no idea. And while this might have been a huge coincidence, there are other details that might not be. For instance, former FBI profiler Mary o' Toole says she doesn't think Stefan chose Robin at random that night, despite what he said so.
- [46:07]
B
That's what I was gonna say. I was gonna say, one, I don't think this was random. Two, I promise this wasn't the first time he's thought about killing. He didn't just drink some medicine and go, oh, I want to kill someone. No, no. He's been thinking this from years. He's just lying to try to make himself look better because, I mean, that's what they do. Like Peyton just said, he obviously has no feelings for anyone else except himself.
- [46:31]
A
Yeah. Mary says she thinks he's just trying to, like, minimize it.
- [46:35]
B
Correct.
- [46:35]
A
Even though admitting to it and, like, admitting he's a monster, he's also, like, not trying to be, like, oh, I stalked her and then I did this.
- [46:42]
B
It's just crazy. I did it, and then I never did it again.
- [46:45]
A
Yeah. She thinks he might have been actually watching Robin for some time, seeing how her family came and went. And she thinks this mainly because Ollie was out of the country on business when Stefan attacked. Had he been in the home, it's likely Stefan wouldn't have stood a chance. And he probably knew that. So what are the odds that the husband is out of town, he knows she's alone. But the real nail in Stefan's coffin was the results from his DNA swab. Forensic testing found it was a match with the blood found on the washcloth in Robin's bathroom. In fact, they said there was a 1 in 7 million chance it. It wasn't his blood.
- [47:24]
B
Okay.
- [47:25]
A
On April 15, 2024, a grand jury indicted Stefan on first degree murder charges. The family desperately wanted to see the case go to trial, not just so that he would get the maximum sentence, but because they wanted his face to be plastered all over the news for the world to know what he had done. Now, unfortunately, a trial didn't happen. Six months after the indictment, Stefan pleaded guilty to the charges, and. And his attorney fought hard to get him a lighter sentence. His attorney argued that back in the 90s, Stefan struggled a lot with alcohol and substance use disorders. He believed the military would change some of that. And then it didn't. Because the real issue was that Stefan had undiagnosed bipolar disorder, which he didn't realize until many years later. And I just want to get it right off, you know, just. Bipolar disorder, undiagnosed or diagnosed, does not make someone a murderer and is not an excuse for a murder. And that, according to his attorney, combined with the alcohol and the drugs he had taken that night, was a dangerous weapon. She also told the judge that Stefan was Dealing with diabetes and heart problems. So any sentence could mean that he might die in prison. When it came time for that sentencing hearing, Stefan smirk had almost no one on his side. His children, 17 and 20 years old, had disowned him. His wife had divorced him. And meanwhile, Robin's family filled the courtroom with their love and support of her. At one point, Stefan turned to them, including Robin's grown daughter Nicole, who he left that night and said, quote, all these years, I have been a coward, living with guilt, shame, and self hatred. It's my sincere hope that my arrest and subsequent incarceration bring some closure. So complete. 180.
- [49:18]
B
I just think that he's saying what he thinks people want to hear. I just don't believe him. I'm sorry.
- [49:23]
A
He also. Well, he's also at his sentencing hearing, trying to act good in front of a judge.
- [49:28]
B
Yep.
- [49:29]
A
He also apologized for the pain and suffering he caused the family. And after all was said and done, the judge gave Stefan life behind bars with all but 70 years suspended. Basically a fancy way of saying 70 years. And because the crime was committed 41 days before parole was abolished in the state of Virginia, the judge did allow him to be eligible for parole. The eligibility will happen in 2037, when Stefan is 65 years old, which he already had 30 years of freedom. Like, he lived a pretty good chunk of his life, and he's already gonna be eligible for parole at 65 when Robin doesn't get to finish her life. That just feels a little light to me.
- [50:16]
B
Well, I mean, there's nothing they could have done because it wasn't abolished. Like, it's the way the laws were. But I agree 100%.
- [50:22]
A
That brings me back to a question I asked at the beginning of this episode. And that is what makes a serial killer. I mean, if you're going by definition, it's a number of kills. But was Stefan telling the truth when he said he was able to suppress this monster living inside of him, all thanks to his family? Is that monster still there? Like, that doesn't just go away because you get caught. Is it living dormant? And now that his family is no longer there to support him and he gets out on parole, does he just give in to the monster that he already said was there? And if it weren't for his family, he would be a serial killer. And now he doesn't have his family and could get out.
- [50:59]
B
Here's the thing. I just don't. There's a lot I don't believe. I don't believe that he wouldn't have killed again before he died. I don't believe that he wasn't looking at, like, child pornography or other crazy things. I just don't. I don't think you can kill someone and admit you're a. You want to kill people and then just live a normal life. That's just not. That's. That's not possible.
- [51:21]
A
Do you think he did kill and didn't get caught?
- [51:24]
B
Exactly. 100%. Those are the other. Like, those are the other.
- [51:28]
A
There's so many scenarios, unsolved cases. I mean, statements like, I am a serial killer who only killed once should not be taken lightly.
- [51:36]
B
Yeah.
- [51:37]
A
If Stefan Smirk is released before his life is over, does that give him another opportunity?
- [51:42]
B
There's no way he is. Like. There's no way that he get that on parole.
- [51:46]
A
Because when someone claims that their motive to kill was just simply to kill for enjoyment, there's no money, there's no hatred, there's no emotion. There's nothing. That is a different kind of monster than the people we typically cover. One that should be handled very carefully before releasing it back into the wild, and that is the murder of Robin Lawrence. I just. Before we go, I just want to take a second to remember that Robin's family lived so many years. Well, her. You know, her mom died without even knowing what happened to her. They lived so many years in this unknown and then just poured salt in the wound by it reopening and figuring out what had happened and hearing the details. And then, you know, the daughter now can look at someone who left her there. And I just want to have, like, a moment of thinking about them and love and grace and support for them, even if we're not in person with them. I think that this case actually brings up a lot of questions that we stumble upon in true crime, especially when it comes to serial killers or people who kill out of enjoyment. What's going on in the brain? Can there be reform? And it's just like, no.
- [53:03]
B
I mean, I don't know. I'm pretty harsh when it comes to this. And I think Peyton and I might. Might have different opinions. I don't know. But I'm pretty harsh when it comes to this. And it's kind of ironic because I see some people that get mad at me for having this opinion. That's okay. To each their own. But I promise it would be a different scenario if someone killed someone in your family. Yeah.
- [53:23]
A
No, I'm just not. Yeah, it's not something you can really for sure speak.
- [53:27]
B
You don't kill people like I. For me, it's just a hard line. No and ifs or buts. You kill someone, goodbye. And it'll always be like that. I don't care the scenario. Like I said earlier, I'm speaking out first degree and second degree murder. Not necessarily talking about manslaughter or exceptions outside of that. I'm talking about cases specific to the one we just did.
- [53:51]
A
I think it's important to remember people make mistakes every day and are ugly versions of themselves all the time. And making an ugly choice because of many different reasons. All these actual reasons going on in the human psyche that could affect people is very different than taking someone's life. And that is an important distinction to understand and make. All right, you guys, thank you for listening to today's episode and we will see you next time with another one. I love it.
- [54:23]
B
I hate it.
- [54:23]
A
Goodbye.
- [54:31]
C
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