B (2:47)

Which I'm so glad because so Many people who love to watch weren't able to watch because it wasn't available in their country. But nowadays. All right, Gary, do you have a 10 seconds for us today?

A (2:58)

I've been sitting here for a long time trying to think of my 10 seconds, and I can't. I just. I can't think of anything. So I'll do a vote. What do the people want? Should I buzz my hair or should I let it keep growing out? That's my 10 seconds. I don't look. Bagels. I've been. That's my life right now is bagels, podcast golf. That's it. That's all I got going right now.

B (3:23)

Valentine's would do.

A (3:25)

What about Valentine's? I mean. Yeah, yeah, Valentine's is fun. No, it was. We had a great time. Peyton threw a big party, and it was. It was really, really fun. She did a great job planning it. Very proud of her. I didn't know if you wanted to talk about her or not.

B (3:39)

Oh, no, I was just saying that was kind of fun.

A (3:42)

Yeah, it was, though. I didn't say anything because I'm saying I didn't know if you. Yeah, it was really fun.

B (3:46)

If you're new here. I danced on college dance team, so I had a bunch of my friends from way back then come over and we had a huge Valentine's party.

A (3:55)

Yeah. So, yeah, we had a really fun Valentine's party. It was like a dinner party, and we didn't have to cook or do dishes, which might have been the best part. For anyone that cooks, doing dishes is always the worst part.

B (4:09)

Yeah.

A (4:10)

I'm the dishwasher in the family, so. Yeah. Let's take a vote. If you want me to buzz my head or keep the hair growing. That's all I got. It's been bugging me, and I can't decide. And on that note, I think we have a pretty good episode. So let's get right into this week's episode.

B (4:31)

Our sources for this episode are pbs.org S T L P pr.org BBC.com innocence project.org lathro gpm.com felony murder elimination project, gofundme.com people.com oxygen ksdk.com kansas city.com thecinemaholic.com spectrum local new.com injustice watch.org colorado law and cbs news cinnamon holic Cinemaholic.

A (4:57)

Ah, okay.

B (4:59)

Yeah, we're talking about cinnamon today.

A (5:01)

I'm really hungry. I haven't eaten all day. I thought. I think we're talking about cinnamon rolls or something. Yeah.

B (5:07)

Our biggest Reason for doing this show is to honor victims of senseless tragedies, to make sure their stories are told respectfully and that their memories are not forgotten. But the truth is, when a violent crime is committed, there are many more victims beyond the deceased. There's the families and friends who lost their loved ones, witnesses who are left replaying the awful scene over and over and suffering the effects of that psychological harm. And then sometimes there's a rare victim in these cases, and it's those who were wrongfully convicted, innocent people who spend years or even their entire lives in prison for a crime they did not commit. It's like taking a tragedy and then adding a tragedy on top of it.

A (6:02)

Yeah.

B (6:03)

So today I am going to share a story with you that has not one, but two victims. It's like right when you think true crime can't get worse, it gets worse. So today we are dialing back the clock to 1994 and traveling to St. Louis, Missouri to meet a man named Marcus Boyd. Marcus was 25 years old, and his life really was just getting started. He had recently moved in with his girlfriend, Leslie Williamson, and the two actually had a baby together, a little infant daughter. And Marcus was doing everything he could at 25 to give his little family the best life possible. He had been working at a printing company where his co workers said he was really well liked and respected. Marcus was always seen as a hard worker while bringing some levity to the job, which is how he had made so many friends there. But the printing job wasn't exactly enough to make ends meet for Marcus. With a girlfriend and a baby to provide for, he needed another small job on the side to earn extra cash to pay the bills. And already working a full time job, he turned to selling drugs, specifically crack cocaine on the side. Now, one of Marcus's colleagues at the print store, a 30 year old guy named James Gregory Elking or Greg, was actually a usual customer of Marcus's. So they're colleagues and work together at the print store. But then Marcus also sells drugs to Greg. Now, Greg and Marcus had grown close at work. Greg said Marcus had a heart of gold and genuinely was selling drugs because he wanted to build a better future for his family. That was his sole reason for even getting into this business. And that might be why Greg even felt comfortable buying his drugs from Marcus. So on the night of October 30, 1994, Greg swung by Marcus's house in the evening to make a purchase. Only he didn't have enough money with him. So Marcus turned him down. Plus, they both had work in the morning. Drugs were the last thing either of them needed on this Sunday night. So instead, the two just hung out on Marcus's porch for a bit while Leslie and Marcus's daughter were upstairs. So this October night, It was around 9 00pm, 1994. The two were cracking jokes and having a few laughs when suddenly Greg saw the smile on Marcus's face turn to pure fear. That's when Greg turned around to see that there were two masked men coming out of the darkness walking up to Marcus's house. Both of them had on dark clothing, and their masks revealed nothing but their eyes. The men were racing up the steps, and one of them immediately tackled Marcus, and it became a violent scuff. Yeah. Before anyone knew it, the same attacker pulled out a gun and fired three shots at Marcus. Greg said the flash was so bright, it lit up the guy's faces. But even then, he couldn't make out much more other than them being black males. So Greg is sitting here. Marcus has just been shot three times by these random men who came up and attacked them.

A (9:37)

Yeah.

B (9:38)

They turn around after shooting Marcus and dart back into the night, leaving Greg basically unharmed.

A (9:45)

Okay.

B (9:46)

And Greg, who had his own criminal history and literally was there to buy drugs, also chose to run off into the night, not wanting to get caught up in anything he shouldn't be. Leslie, obviously the girlfriend heard the gunfire from inside and had called the police. And around 9:07pm, first responders arrived to find Marcus severely injured. Now, some sources say he was already dead, while others say he was then rushed to a hospital and died from his injuries later that night. Oh, so he's dead either way. He is dead. But that night, Marcus left behind his wife, his young daughter, and an intense miscarriage of justice was about to follow.

A (10:34)

You know, it's so interesting. I think I've mentioned it before. I mean, I know I've mentioned it before how some people can get shot like five, six, seven times and they're fine, and then someone will get shot once. I mean, obviously it's about where you got shot, but it's just so. It's crazy. It's just. It's so interesting, right? If it hits, like a major artery or something or if it just goes through and through, whatever it is. But yeah.

B (11:01)

So right away, it seemed clear to police that this shooting was a dispute over drug money. But they learned something else when they spoke to Marcus's heartbroken girlfriend, Leslie. She actually suspected one of the men to be Marcus's old Friend. Someone else who had been selling drugs and may have actually introduced Marcus into the game was a guy named Lamar Johnson, who she thought Marcus had had a recent fight with, but she couldn't be sure. And sometimes I think in these cases, you know, someone brings up a suspect and you feel like someone's, why are they immediately throwing someone else under the bus? We have to remember police, the first thing they're gonna ask Leslie is, does your boyfriend have any enemies who would have done this? And so she's going to be racking her brain for, was he fighting with anyone recently? Did he have bad blood?

A (12:00)

Well, it's gonna be so hard too, because they're gonna be like, oh, he was selling drugs. They're going to be like, oh, okay, right. The. The.

B (12:06)

Right.

A (12:07)

The attention to it is going to shift immediately.

B (12:10)

Right.

A (12:10)

Which, I mean, it's hard. I mean, I understand. I get both sides. So.

B (12:14)

Yeah, yeah. So she's like, hey, I think it might be this Lamar guy. She told police that their best bet at finding someone was actually through Marcus's co worker, Greg Elking, who she knew was at the house with Marcus and had obviously run away before the police could arrive. And as the sole witness to the crime, police knew they needed to talk to him. It took police four days to get Greg down to the station. And while he was terrified and reluctant to talk, he knew that he was probably the only chance at bringing Marcus justice. So he decided to come forward and speak. He told police he didn't get a good look at either of the two assailants since they were fully covered aside from their eyes. But he did notice they were both dark skinned men. So the police show him some photos, and Greg said, I just don't think any of these guys are right. But the detectives questioning him kept applying pressure, saying things like, I know you know who it is. And then they show him a photo of the person Leslie named Lamar Johnson. I'm not sure if Greg had ever met Lamar before because obviously Greg and Lamar are both friends of Marcus, the victim. It seems like he didn't have any idea who Lamar was. But the detective kept encouraging Greg, saying things like, I need your help getting these guys off the street. And then Greg hesitates. The officer pushes a bit harder, telling Greg, your life is at risk. Like, whoever did this knows you're a witness. You could be next. They also tell him that Lamar Johnson, this suspect, they're showing him a photo of like, hey, do you know him? They tell him that he is involved in six other murders before Marcus.

A (14:07)

So they're pretty sure it's him.

B (14:08)

Well, the thing is.

A (14:09)

Or are they just saying this?

B (14:10)

None of that was true.

A (14:11)

Okay. Okay.

B (14:12)

Lamar had not been tied to any other murders. They were just trying to get him to talk.

A (14:18)

Yes.

B (14:19)

Yes.

A (14:19)

Okay.

B (14:20)

But they needed Greg to sign the back of Lamar's photo to make the ID Official as one of the men he saw. And Greg still refuses. He's like, listen, I am not confident enough that that is one of the guys who was there.

A (14:34)

Good for Greg, because most people would have done it.

B (14:36)

Especially if you've been there for hours, you could be easily a suspect. Like, if not Lamar, then you. So the only thing Greg would say was that the eyes of the men who shot Marcus looked slightly similar to Lamar's. Maybe a lazy eye, but there's no guarantee.

A (14:54)

Dang, if I ever commit a crime, they're going to describe me as having a lazy eye.

B (15:00)

Kind of sucks in the sketch.

A (15:02)

In the sketch. Yeah, that sucks.

B (15:05)

Yeah. But also, they're going to say he has a luscious lion man.

A (15:08)

Thank you. Thank you, babe. Thank you.

B (15:10)

So apparently that was enough for the police to make their move on Lamar Johnson anyway, signature on the photo or not, because that same day, November 3rd, police pulled Lamar Johnson over. He was in the car with his friend Philip Campbell, and both were brought to the station for questioning. Now, imagine being this friend who's just randomly in the car when he gets pulled over. And now you are basically the second suspect. I want to talk about Lamar for a second. I just want to give you a bit of his backstory, because it's not unlike Marcus'. Lamar was just a 20 year old.

A (15:48)

Oh, my gosh.

B (15:49)

Father of two young girls as well, who was still dating his high school girlfriend, Erica Barrow. And for growing up in the south side neighborhood of St. Louis, a place that had really high crime and homicide rates, Lamar kind of stayed out of trouble for most of his life. The only things on his record by 1994 were a possession charge for cocaine and. And tampering with the license plate. So this year, he is working at Jiffy Lube. And like Marcus, it just wasn't enough to make ends meet for his girlfriend, his two kids, so he started selling drugs on the side as well. And Lamar knew this was just a means to an end. According to him, it was a temporary fix until he could find a better way to make more money. Because at the same time as all of this, he was also going to a community college to get a degree.

A (16:44)

This is interesting. I think I Might know where this is going, but I'm not sure yet.

B (16:50)

Guys, I'm jumping in real quick to let you know about another sponsor and that is Skims. Now before I started using skims, underwear for me was kind of an afterthought. It was just something I've always worn my whole life but didn't really make a priority. And then I got the boy cut shorts underwear from skims and I have fallen in love. It is the best material. It doesn't move, it stays in place. It fits well. It doesn't cut anywhere like honestly on it just is like butter. But underwear, it's amazing.

A (17:21)

I know Butterwear.

B (17:24)

I love all of my skims products. Honestly, I just think that their material is amazing. I think everything looks good. But yeah, definitely their boy short underwear

A (17:36)

is one of my favorite and not really. I mean here I'll be honest, I wear their underwear as well. I'm wearing it right now. Can't show you, not will not show you. But I do like their stuff as well. So if you are wanting some guy underwear, go check it out.

B (17:51)

And I have basically every single bra that they offer.

A (17:55)

Same here.

B (17:56)

Leave a comment on our IG or anywhere if you're wanting some specific racks. I love their fits everybody T shirt bra, but that's just me. So shop my favorite bras and underwear@skims.com and then after you place your order, please be sure to let them know we sent you. So this is after checkout. After you pay, select podcast in the survey. Be sure to select our show Murder with My Husband in the dropdown menu that follows. It's a great way to support us. Life doesn't happen biweekly, so why should Payday? The money you've earned should be in your hands. And with Earn in, it can be. Earnin is an app that lets you access your pay as you earn it. Up to $150 a day with a max of $1,000 between paydays. Just download the Earn an app and add your info and then start accessing your pay as you work and leave an optional tip to help keep the app running for everyone. Any money you access plus tips are automatically repaid from your next paycheck. It's definitely come out of my mouth the old I have to wait for payday. But why is that fair? You're still going to work every single day. And that is what is honestly amazing about Earnon and what I love. Whether that's gas, bills, groceries, there was definitely times when I was trying to survive where I was just living out of my pantry waiting for payday to go to the grocery store. And that is where Ernan definitely would have saved me. So download Earn in today, spelled E A R N I N in the Google Play or Apple App Store and when you download the Earn an app, type in Murder With My Husband Under Podcast when you sign up. It'll really help the show. Murder with My Husband Under Podcast Earn it is a financial technology company, not a bank. Access limits are based on your earnings and risk factors. Standard cash outs take one to two business days with no mandatory fees. Expedited transfers available for a fee. Tips are voluntary and don't affect the service. Available in select states. Terms and restrictions apply. Visit earnon.com for full details. Download Earn and Now and take control of your pay so he really was working towards a better future. And he knew that selling drugs was a dangerous and poor choice. But desperate times called for desperate measures. Still, when Lamar was picked up by the police on November 3 and brought in for questioning, he honestly didn't seem too worried. He knew his hands were clean, so much so that he didn't even ask for a lawyer. He told his girlfriend Erica that he didn't want to pay for a lawyer or ask his parents for help because he had nothing to hide. Instead, Lamar was as cooperative as possible with the police. He answered any and all questions they had. He told him that despite what Leslie believed, he and Marcus had never been in a fight, that the two were close friends, he loved him like a brother, and he was devastated when he had heard the news about Marcus's death a few nights back. And he honestly still was. He said he had no reason to hurt Marcus, no motive whatsoever. Even more convincing, Lamar had an alibi. He was at home during the time of Marcus's shooting with his girlfriend Erica, and the only time he went outside that night was for a few minutes when he went to a street corner a few blocks away to sell drugs. He was gone for a total of five minutes. Not enough time to get to Marcus's home miles away, shoot him and make it back. Not to mention he came in without a drop of blood on him. Erica also confirmed this statement, saying she was inside changing their five month old daughter's diaper and she said, quote, by the time I'd finished changing her diaper and cleaning everything up, he was walking back up the steps. But when I say she confirmed that statement, I don't mean to the police. The police never asked Erica, never questioned her about her boyfriend's alibi this is

A (21:54)

going to be wild. If he goes to prison.

B (21:57)

This is what she tells reporters.

A (21:59)

This is going to be wild.

B (22:00)

Instead, they put Lamar and Philip, the friend who happened to be in the car in prison when he got pulled over, into a photo lineup.

A (22:10)

Okay.

B (22:10)

Which Lamar does willingly. And then they bring Greg Elking, the man who was there that night, back in to take a look at that lineup. And again, Greg couldn't pick anyone out.

A (22:23)

Dude, what is wrong with these detectives? This is crazy.

B (22:26)

But Greg said he felt like he was going to get in trouble with the police if he didn't comply. So eventually he said to the detective, you tell me what the numbers are, and I'll tell you if they're correct. And so the detectives are like, guy number three and four. And Greg's like, yep, okay, you're right. Those are the suspects, number three and four.

A (22:47)

Gosh. Okay.

B (22:49)

Greg said he went with it because he trusted the police wouldn't lead him astray, that they must have a pretty good reason for bringing these guys in, and he didn't want to take the fall for it. So he finally agreed to sign off on it. And with that, Lamar Johnson and Philip Campbell were charged with first degree murder. I think it's pretty safe to say we have minorities, drug dealers, and murder. And the police quickly ran with it. They were like, yep, these are our guys. Without any evidence. I mean, outside of Greg's id, which he didn't even make, by the way. He just told police yes to the numbers that they told him. There's really no evidence for the prosecution to present in court. They need to bolster their case if they want to get a conviction. And they seem to find an opportunity in a jailhouse informant named William Mock, which is like, we just have the most stereotypical wrongful conviction on our hands.

A (23:52)

Yeah.

B (23:53)

No evidence, no good detective work, and now a jailhouse informant being the number one piece of evidence.

A (23:59)

That's crazy. This is wild. It's so interesting because I am pretty probably pro when it comes to the death penalty or being harsh with. With evictions and penalties, but I'm also so against and just not okay with how the justice system does when it comes to wrongful convictions. Because I will dare say, and there's. There's times where it's not, but I would dare say that majority of the times, it's so un obvious that this is a wrongful conviction. And maybe not. Maybe it's because you're telling me this case afterwards, but I still feel like if I was a Jury right now, I'd be like, I don't know about this.

B (24:40)

I mean, I think it's safe to say that in the 90s, which this was way back in the 90s, being black, dealing drugs and being somewhat tied to illegal activities or whatever, this happens so much like police closing cases using this specific type. And it's just like now looking back, we're like, okay, jailhouse. Like, we see all the signs, but it's like back then, were people also seeing the signs, like, why was this happening so often? Obviously they were convincing the juries by lying to them. Yeah, it's just. So this jailhouse informant, William. William was in a holding cell two cells down from Lamar Johnson and Philip Campbell while they were in custody. And he claimed that he overheard the two of them having a conversation about the crime they committed.

A (25:35)

Oh, my gosh.

B (25:36)

Them saying something like, quote, we should have shot that white boy. Supposedly they're referring to Greg, which might I add, I feel like Greg should have been a stronger suspect in this. But we kind of know the reason why. Maybe he wasn't immediately looked at in the 90s, and they just believed him at his word that this is what happened. But there's a lot of problems with William's statement outside of the fact that he was two cells away and likely couldn't hear a thing Lamar and Philip were saying. 34 year old William had made plenty of racist remarks against black people. He had a swastika tattoo. Plus, an ex girlfriend of his claimed he was part of a white supremacist gang, basically. So at the time, William was being held for breaking into a church van and violating his parole for another crime. And in the past, he had been asked to snitch to get his charges reduced from prison time to parole. So he knew exactly what he was doing when he went to his jailers and said, hey, I heard these two talking. I want to strike another deal. And this time he claimed he had information about Lamar and Philip. And that's when William told the police he overheard them coming up with an alibi with another person in the jail named Lamont. Now, a day later, he told police he heard them saying something like, be sure to tell my mother to tell the police that I was with them when this went down.

A (27:06)

Huh? This is really interesting.

B (27:08)

Okay, so there William is basically saying, hey, they were trying to come up with an alibi, but there was a huge problem. Even outside of William's horrible reputation, this Lamont person does not exist. After reading the jail logs, people couldn't Find a single person who went by that name or even nickname. And yet they cut William a deal if he agreed to testify against Lamar and Philip in court. They promised to write him a letter to the parole board on his behalf.

A (27:36)

Which is interesting because jail informants and informants in general are, as far as I'm aware, like, they're just not very trustworthy these days. Like, they don't really. Pulling them up in front of someone to testify is crazy. That's so crazy.

B (27:50)

I'm actually. You just read my next part, so I'm just going to add in some actual statistics and data behind what you just said. Jailhouse informants, it's a pretty big issue on how they are used. Like Eric just said, we know snitching can often provide a lot of perks for someone on the wrong side of the law. I found one. Stat. According to the national registry of exonerations, between 1989 and 2024, there have been 241 wrongful convictions related to jailhouse informants. False testimony.

A (28:26)

That's insane. That's insane.

B (28:28)

So again, I mean, this is 1989 to 2024, but 241 wrongful convictions relied on jailhouse informants. This was obviously a common practice and an inappropriate1. That's 241 victims, 241 people who were put in jail due to the testimony of convicted felons. I mean, it's obviously just let that sink in. But Lamar Johnson was a hopeful guy. He knew he was innocent. So when his trial rolled around in July of 1995, he's like, the jury's got to see this too, right? Like, they have nothing on us. Especially because one of the key witnesses against him was a man he had never even met before. William. William told the jury during the trial he heard Lamar talking to a Lamont about the crimes. Again, Lamont does not exist. William also said that they talked about another murder on the south side of St. Louis. But when police had actually compared the statement to other cases, they couldn't find a single case that matched what William was saying they were describing. So all to say, the only thing William is, was he happened to be next to these guys.

A (29:40)

He's a liar.

B (29:41)

Everything he's saying does not match up. So not only is he a jailhouse informant, everything he's saying has no evidence behind it. Didn't stop the prosecution from putting him up. And I also want to say the jury didn't get to hear a lot about this or William's criminal background. Or his history of racist and violent offenses. The fact that officials were submitting a letter to the parole board on his behalf for testifying. They get to hear. None of that's crazy.

A (30:11)

This is crazy.

B (30:11)

The jury has no idea about any of that. At trial, at least William wasn't the only one to take the stand in Lamar's trial. Lamar's girlfriend Erica, also spoke about how Lamar was home with her that night. And it. Yes, he did leave, but it wasn't nearly enough time for him to have made the drive to Marcus's and to kill him and get back. A detective, however, got on the stand to dispute those claims, saying the whole thing could have been done in a matter of minutes, though he never once actually went out and timed himself making the drive to see, Even see if it's possible. She doesn't even have evidence backing the statement. He's just getting up there saying, I

A (30:46)

also don't know who I'm more disappointed. I mean, I'm disappointed with everyone right now. But if the jury seriously finds him guilty, what a horrible jury, too.

B (30:56)

I mean, they don't know about Williams, but they do. They can clearly see right now that, like, the detective is saying this. And I don't know if the defense just wasn't saying, you have no evidence. Prove it. I don't know if he had just a crappy defense team as well.

A (31:12)

It was. The jury was also just stupid and just, like, wasn't thinking out of the box.

B (31:17)

But back then, were we as skeptical about what we were hearing? Maybe not, but you're trusting the courts. You're trusting the.

A (31:22)

I'm still annoyed. Send me the names. Who was in the jury.

B (31:26)

So after two hours of deliberating, the two hours, by the way, for first degree murder. Oh, I also do want to say that Greg Elking also took the stand, and he stuck with the story he gave investigators. He saw Lamar and Philip in the lineup and said, those were the guys. So he does get on stand and ID Them. Greg does.

A (31:50)

Hmm. Okay.

B (31:50)

Which. That is pretty.

A (31:52)

That's interesting.

B (31:53)

I mean, for a witness to say that he got up there and picked out two guys when that's not really what happened, but that's what he said. Two hours after deliberating, the jury sides with the prosecution. They found Lamar Johnson guilty of first degree murder. He was told to return in a few months for his sentencing. But before that day could come, Lamar Johnson received a letter. It was written by his friend, the guy that he was arrested and charged with. Philip. Now, in this handwritten Note. Philip said, hey, I know that you didn't do this, and I feel bad, and this is why I'm writing you a letter. I know you didn't do it because I was actually there. The guy. Yes. Who was also charged, who just happened to be in the car.

A (32:39)

Yes.

B (32:39)

Now, remember, this is a circle of guys who all run around together. So it's not that shocking that maybe Philip knew Marcus and could have been there, but the fact that he's writing a letter being like, I actually know you're innocent because I was actually there, like, I'm actually involved. He said it was me and another guy named James B.A. howard.

A (33:02)

Why would he say that? Why would he write that letter?

B (33:05)

Because he felt bad.

A (33:06)

Okay? I mean, he felt bad. He was like, it just surprises me, Lamar.

B (33:11)

I'm actually guilty of being here and doing this with another man named James. Phillip said Marcus owed James money, and what I read, it was less than $40. So they were there to try and get the $40. But then when Marcus started fighting back and it turned into, like, a violent struggle, apparently James panicked and shot Marcus. But Phillips's lawyer wouldn't let him come forward with the information before Lamar's trial because he was like, philip, you can probably still beat the charges if the prosecution paints this on Lamar and he gets convicted. So don't come forward, because Lamar getting convicted can mean that you don't, even though you're willingly saying to me and to people around you, not the cops, that you did this.

A (33:59)

Another problem I have with attorneys, man.

B (34:03)

Right. They're, like, not basing it off the truth. They're basing off. Of getting their client off.

A (34:07)

Yeah. Criminal defense attorneys. And I know we have some listening, but look, I would dare say this, and if you're offended by this, write me a DM Happen to. I'm happy to talk to you. I would dare say criminal defense attorneys have some of the worst morals. That's my hot take. I'm sorry. That's my hot take.

B (34:27)

I think it takes a certain type of person to be able to do that job. Because there are defense attorneys. I will state this with my whole chest. There are defense attorneys who 100% know their client is guilty, and they don't recuse themselves and say, I can't represent him because I know he's guilty, which they are supposed to do.

A (34:49)

That happens all the time. It's not a secret. It happens all the time.

B (34:53)

It's more a little game to them of trying to get people off. They think that's their job and so they, you know, bend the rules and justify it and get people off. I don't know. I mean, Philip obviously is feeling guilt because he wrote a letter to Lamar in prison saying, I know you're innocent. Yes, I think Philip should have done the right thing. But also, how do you look at someone and say you actually should have gone to prison or like came forward and said you did it just so Lamar didn't, even though your lawyer at the time and your attorney is advising you against that.

A (35:25)

Yeah, it's so interesting.

B (35:26)

It's just hard.

A (35:27)

Also, I gotta add to this. I know there's also criminal defense attorneys that defend people who aren't guilty.

B (35:32)

We've had cases where they recuse themselves.

A (35:34)

So I don't know if I necessarily mean all criminal defense attorneys. I just mean the ones that this attorney. There's some bad apples out there. I'll just say that isn't there in any. Yeah, I get it.

B (35:45)

But I do understand what you're saying where it's just frustrating when someone's so obviously guilty and they yeah, one in five Americans have learn a new language on their bucket list. And if that's you, finally check it off with Babel, the language app that makes grammar fun and is actually worth your time. Learning a language with Babel is all about small steps, big wins and progress. You can actually track and feel. Their bite sized lessons fit easily into your daily routine and are also easy to remember. Just 10 minutes a day is enough to really start seeing results. As you guys know, I brush up on Babel every single time G and I travel. He is fluent in Spanish and using Babel have been able to keep up, understand what's going on and even respond. So however you learn best by listening, speaking, reading or writing, Babel adapts to your style and keeps you motivated with personalized learning plans, real time feedback and progress tracking. Babel has over 25 million subscriptions sold worldwide and with 14 languages to choose from, every course comes with a 20 day money back guarantee. So here's a special limited time deal for our listeners. Right now, get up to 55% off your Babel subscription at babel.com forward/husband. Guys, if you want to learn a language, please go check Babel out. Get up to 55% off@babbel.com husband using our code spelled b a b b e l.com husband rules and restrictions may apply. This episode is sponsored by Better Help. Sometimes it can feel like everyone else has it all together in their love lives. Whether married Dating or single, the truth is, most of us are still figuring it out and finding our way. And no matter where you are in your romantic journey, therapy can help you find your way and help you determine what you want, what feels heavy, and how you can take some pressure off yourself. BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the US BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. And with over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform. You know, Garrett and I love therapy, and I think, you know, it doesn't have to be something dramatic in order for you to go to therapy. So if you've ever thought about giving it a chance, try it now with better help. Sign up and get 10% off@betterhelp.com husband that's better help. H E L P.com husband so this is huge because Lamar now has, in writing a confession from someone else who was there and a part of it now clearing his name. So Lamar writes the judge and says, hey, I actually just had the real people come forward. Please can I get a new hearing? And his request was denied.

A (38:47)

Really?

B (38:47)

In September of 1995, Lamar Information, too, returned to the courtroom for his sentencing. He was given life in prison without the possibility of parole.

A (38:56)

Freak.

B (38:57)

He is in his 20s with a young, insane. As for Philip, he actually pleads guilty and receives a shorter sentence of seven years behind bars. So it does. It does work out for him. Lamar takes the fall, he gets a shorter sentence.

A (39:15)

Okay.

B (39:16)

And my feeling on this is that they actually had probably more evidence on Philip, which is why they even added him in, even though he was the random guy who was pulled over. They probably actually had ties to this thing, and so it was easier to charge him, but they still. They pulled over Lamar, not Phillip. So they were gonna pin it on him. Because how then do you turn around and be like, actually, we're wrong? Yeah, I mean, you do because you're a good person. But when you have ego in the way, happens all the time. So he pleads guilty. And then James Howard, who was 17, he was a minor when he killed Marcus. He was never charged with it, even though it was, like, common knowledge that he had been pointed to as the guy who did this. I will say he's convicted three years later of another murder and sentenced to life in prison for that.

A (40:12)

This is ridiculous. This is.

B (40:14)

Okay, okay. So eventually, time goes on, and Philip, who's going to serve his seven years and get out. And then James, who's already in prison, life in prison, decide to sign sworn affidavits confessing to killing Marcus to try and get Lamar out of prison. So these guys are feeling guilty. They're like, we're gonna actually sign sworn statements for Lamar in his defense, in his appeals to try to get him out. And it doesn't change a thing for Lamar.

A (40:47)

I don't understand. I do not understand.

B (40:50)

He says goodbye to his two young daughters, and that also meant saying goodbye to Erica, the mother of his children. But it was because of his family. Lamar didn't give up. He knew the truth. It was written in black and white. He felt one day, one day, someone will see this. So behind bars, Lamar begins studying the law. He sifted through police reports, trial transcripts, and he began searching for more evidence to prove his innocence, which you 100 have the right to do. Any conviction is able to request their records, their trial, everything, and build for their petitions or appeals. In 1996, two years later, he filed for a new trial. His petition is denied. In 1998, he met another inmate in a similar situation. The person was working with the Midwest Innocence Project to get their case a second look. And in the early 2000s, this inmate introduced Lamar to his contacts at the Innocence Project. They began looking into Lamar's case, and they're like, what? They also realize that Greg Elking, the guy who was the witness who said this whole story, was now in prison for a bank robbery and, oh, my gosh. And had openly admitted to many people that he had lied at Lamar's trial. So he's telling people the real story. I actually was not confident, but I got up there and lied. He said, I was pressured into naming Lamar in that photo lineup.

A (42:21)

Law enforcement, this is black and white at this point.

B (42:24)

And then he comes out with new information later on in 2003.

A (42:28)

Crazy.

B (42:29)

When the Innocence Project is looking into Lamar's case, they discovered that Greg Elking has told people law enforcement paid off his debts.

A (42:37)

Oh, my God.

B (42:39)

They cleared the traffic warrants in his name, and they put him in witness protection program, and he was given $4,000

A (42:48)

after the trial, and then he robbed the bank.

B (42:50)

All of this was documented in a letter Greg had sent to his pastor out of guilt. Now, of course, none of this is mentioned during Lamar's trial, but when the Innocence Project dug into it, they found it was true. This alone should have been enough to get Lamar a new trial. So in 2018, this is so many

A (43:09)

years later, I'm so frustrated that's horrible.

B (43:14)

And it's like, so. I mean, in. The Innocence Project does this time and time again turning up wrongful convictions. The Innocence Project teams up with a St. Louis Circuit Attorney named Kimberly Gardner. She just created a new division called the Conviction Integrity Unit, who. Their whole job was to look at cases exactly like this. Which is kind of cool, right? I mean, it's a. It's a circuit attorney who's like, no, there has been wrongful convictions in the past. Obviously, this is an issue. This is an epidemic. She creates this division, and Lamar was the perfect candidate. So the Innocence Project is like, hey, please look at this case. So with the help of the Innocence Project, Gardner began reinvestigating a lot of the claims that were made during Lamar's trial, including the distance and timing from his house to Marcus's. When they made the drive, they found it was 13 minutes one way, the quickest route possible. Double that, plus add some time to park, run up, get in a scuffle, and murder someone. That's a half hour.

A (44:18)

And she said it took her five minutes to change a diaper.

B (44:21)

Yeah, he left and came back in the time she was changing a diaper.

A (44:24)

Dude, honestly, here's what needs to happen. The corrupt detectives who did this need to go to jail for the rest of the. For however long Lamar served. And, you know, yeah, that's the only way to fix this.

B (44:39)

I am passionate about this, and Garrett knows this, but there was a case in my hometown.

A (44:44)

Yes.

B (44:44)

Very identical to this. A young person was put in prison for life for a crime he didn't commit. It was very shady police work. It was very intense interrogation. There was no evidence. And then years later, the Innocence Project gets involved, comes out that there is evidence, physical DNA evidence that didn't match him. They knew this from the beginning. They knew it didn't match him, but they said he had an accomplice. It matches the creepy guy next door. So he gets out, they arrest the creepy guy next door. But this is 20 something years after he spent in prison. And the cops who arrested him come forward and say, we're actually not going to say sorry, because we still stand 10 to 10 toes down. That the guy next door was the unknown accomplice that we were thinking of.

A (45:34)

Yeah, and sorry, we're kind of rambling. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not even biased as well. Like, I'm pretty. Like, detectives have a hard job. Like, stuff's crazy. But like I just said earlier, there's good people and there's bad people. And there's some bad apples. And these were some bad apples.

B (45:48)

Well. And like, you're messing with someone's life.

A (45:50)

Yeah. It's not.

B (45:51)

You know what I mean?

A (45:52)

Not games. This isn't a game. Yeah.

B (45:54)

It's just.

A (45:54)

It's crazy.

B (45:56)

So this is what the innocence comes up with. The Innocence Project. They have the evidence that the timeline doesn't add up to Erica's testimony. They have a signed statement from Greg Elking recanting his testimony, saying, this is everything that was happened. It was completely bogus. They have a sworn confession from the two guys who actually commit the murder saying, hey, we did this. He didn't. By this point, Philip Campbell has passed away. I just want to say. But they do have a signed statement from him beforehand, because this was years earlier saying that he didn't do that. Lamar didn't do this. It's a solid case. Gardner took it to the Missouri Supreme Court in March of 2021, and they deny the request for a new trial. Basically, the Attorney General's office said she, quote, lacked the authority to seek a new trial so many years after the case was adjudicated. But this is just so common because there is a reason why cases aren't overturned even when there's so much evidence. And it's because it opens up a can of worms for the state with other cases being looked at.

A (47:02)

And they also. The state also knows they're about ready to lose millions and millions of dollars, as they should, and support from the

B (47:09)

people around them, because why the heck are you putting innocent people in prison? So there's a reason they are so hesitant to do it. I'm not justifying it or saying it's.

A (47:17)

But that's why.

B (47:18)

But that is why. So that same year, the state of Missouri passed a new law. It allowed prosecutors to petition the court if they themselves wanted to exonerate a prisoner that they felt was wrongly convicted.

A (47:32)

Wow.

B (47:32)

So a prosecutor's office, not the state, but a prosecutor, come forward and say, I'm petitioning this.

A (47:37)

I like that. That's a good. I like that.

B (47:39)

In the. The law, it doesn't matter how long ago, if this person has spent 70 years in prison, they could still petition to get someone out. The timing was extremely helpful, and I'm not sure if Gardner had anything to do with this new law passing, but either way, it's a game changer for Lamar Johnson. The following year, in 2022, Lamar was finally granted a retrial. A retrial. In the meantime, Gardner and her Team keep piecing together their new case, which meant disputing a lot of the issues with the first trial, including William Mock, the jailhouse informant. Not only did Gardner realize how little the jury was actually told about William, including his criminal background and the fact that he had been a jailhouse informant before. Like, he had a history of doing this, she found he was getting preferential treatment behind bars before and after testifying. William was given coffee and cigarettes from prosecutors. They would literally visit him after he testified and give him these things. He was moved to a better prison. However, William wasn't able to be called again to the stand because he died back in 2003 at the age of 43 after driving a stolen SUV off a boat ramp and into a Missouri lake.

A (48:49)

This is your star witness, by the way.

B (48:51)

But now it's not great because he can't come forward and say, I lied. So after 27 years behind bars, Lamar Johnson is back in Court in December 12, 2022. His grown daughters are there every single day.

A (49:03)

Oh, that breaks. That breaks my heart.

B (49:05)

He missed their entire life. And they knew from. Because their mom knew, their mom knew he was innocent, that he was her alibi or she was his alibi. So basically, the judge has three options. Overturn the conviction and grant a new trial. Overturn the conviction and just get rid of a new trial and declare Lamar innocent or uphold the original verdict. This is what this new trial that he is granted is. This is the purpose of it, basically. So the court hears multiple players in the case. Everything I've told you basically is presented at court, including bringing in witnesses. Like, Greg gets up there and says, yeah, I lied.

A (49:42)

Okay.

B (49:43)

And they let Lamar speak. He takes the stand and speaks and says, I just wanted to be cooperative with police, like I would. I should have got a lawyer. I didn't know.

A (49:52)

Poor guy.

B (49:53)

It takes two months. Like, the judge wraps up and says, come back in two months for my verdict. Which is just like, yes, it's been 20 something years, but like two more months. Holding someone who's innocent, it's just so crappy. It's rude.

A (50:10)

Yeah.

B (50:10)

February, 50 year old Lamar returns to the court. The judge gave him the news he'd been waiting to hear. He wasn't granted a retrial. His conviction was overturned.

A (50:22)

Good.

B (50:22)

Lamar Johnson was now a free man. And for the first time in his life, you just.

A (50:26)

Do you just go out of jail that day? Like, you're just like, boom.

B (50:29)

Immediately they release you.

A (50:30)

Crazy.

B (50:31)

And it's so crazy to me when they do this because the judge literally apologizes. Like, the judge apologizes on behalf of the state. It's like in his. Yeah, the way they word it is an apology.

A (50:43)

I mean, I. So let's. Did he sue? Like, how much money did he get?

B (50:47)

So Lamar.

A (50:49)

Gosh, that's. That's just horrible. That's horrible.

B (50:52)

He. He doesn't really know his daughters, but he's getting to spend time with his daughters. He was actually released just in time for his 28 year old daughter Akira's wedding.

A (51:03)

Oh, that's.

B (51:04)

So he got to walk her down the aisle. There was so much that Lamar had missed. He said in an interview how excited he was just to touch a tree, to go outside for a run, to get a meal. It was the simple pleasures in life that he was looking forward to getting back. Of course, there were some unexpected hurdles. Technology. Lamar had never even used an iPhone or an Apple watch. It was all brand new to him. But maybe the biggest issue was all the lost time. Lamar wasn't going to get back after decades behind bars. This is according to him. He's like, I'm expected to just go out and rebuild my life, get a job, do this, do that.

A (51:41)

He gets a bunch of money and he gets to do whatever he wants for the rest of his life.

B (51:45)

Okay, so some states, and you're gonna be shocked, they offer compensation for people whose convictions.

A (51:53)

Yes. And the compensation is always trash. It's always like 10 grand a year or something. Just trash that. They deserve way more for spending in prison.

B (52:03)

Missouri law states they offer zero compensation for people.

A (52:06)

Okay, but which. That's. I mean, it's common. It's common. So then he sees there's a loophole.

B (52:12)

Right. They have to pay someone if they were exonerated with DNA proving their innocence. Okay, so because there was DNA, Lamar is left with no immediate financial assistance, housing assistance, money.

A (52:28)

Someone has to take his case. Like.

B (52:30)

Yes.

A (52:31)

What's it called?

B (52:32)

Well, you have to, like, go all the way up.

A (52:34)

Yeah. But someone takes your case, like pro bono. Thank you, but.

B (52:38)

And then that's just hoping the lawsuit even turns out. Some of the times they don't win.

A (52:41)

Yeah, for sure. But a lot of the times I feel like they do if it's obvious like this.

B (52:45)

Well, and also you're suing, but there's a law in place saying they don't owe you compensation.

A (52:50)

And it also just takes a long time. It's just horrible.

B (52:52)

So he has no savings account, but luckily his family actually teamed up with the Midwest Innocence Project to launch a GoFundMe oh, nice. Which does happen when you like. They'll say, please donate to this person, because when they get out of prison, they're gonna have to start Life. And on July 4th of 2023, Lamar posted, thanking everyone for the donations. He said he had since gotten the opportunity to fly an airplane, see the ocean, walk his daughter down the aisle. He also said he was dedicating his time and energy to helping correct more wrongful convictions by raising awareness and working to get his life back on track. In 2024, Lamar's lawyers also helped him file a lawsuit suing the city and the officers like Garrett said he would. But, I mean, those take so long. You need immediate money.

A (53:42)

Yeah.

B (53:43)

So in a statement to the press, Lamar summed up his experience, saying, quote, I'm grateful to be free. I'm doing my best to make up for all of the time that was stolen from me and my family, especially my daughters. I want to put this dark and painful chapter behind me. But there can be no healing without answers and accountability. I deserved better, and so did Marcus. I intend to make sure this doesn't happen to anyone else. If you want to help more people like Lamar and help bring justice to those who are accountable for violent crimes, like those against Marcus, you can visit the innocenceproject.org takeaction. I will note Garrett and I have donated in the past to the Innocence Project. I do think that they're of very great non profit organization. And I think the most devastating part about all of this, and this often happens in wrongful convictions. Marcus's true crime case was then taken over by a wrongful conviction case.

A (54:42)

Yeah.

B (54:43)

And so it just takes true crime and makes it worse because you're now having multiple victims. Marcus's family now has this tied to the case of like this horrible thing happened and then someone went to prison for it. That. That was innocent.

A (54:59)

I was gonna say it kind of sadly, really sad. It starts to overshadow Marcus's death as well, because, I mean, end of the day, someone died, he was murdered, and they. That family also lost Marcus. So it's just like, like you said, so many people were affected and yeah,

B (55:19)

it's just like, it's just devastating. It's devastating that this is even a reality. But that was the case of Marcus Boyd and the wrongful conviction of Lamar Johnson. And thank you so much for listening. Please think about both families as you go out, you know, go through the day today. And if you want to look into their cases more, there's links everywhere. Also can look into the Innocence Project. But we will see you next time with another one.

A (55:47)

I love it and I hate it.

B (55:49)

Goodbye. This is a Monday.com ad. The same Monday.com designed for every team. The same Monday.com with built in AI scaling your work from day one. The same Monday.comwith an easy and intuitive setup. Go to Monday.com and try it for free.