451 - We Must Please The Flight Attendants

Summary

Episode 451: "We Must Please The Flight Attendants"

Host: My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Network: Exactly Right Media
Release Date: [Insert Release Date]
Duration: Approximately 90 minutes

---

Introduction

The episode kicks off with Karen and Georgia engaging in their trademark witty banter, discussing topics ranging from jet lag struggles to favorite movies and books. Their casual conversation sets a relaxed tone, making listeners feel right at home.

---

Story 1: The Trial of Pamela Smart

Timestamp: [15:20] – [43:57]

Karen delves into the notorious 1990 case of Pamela Smart, which captivated the nation and became a landmark in true crime history. Smart, a young woman from Derry, New Hampshire, was convicted as an accomplice in the murder of her husband, Greg Smart.

Key Points:

• Discovery of the Crime: On May 1, 1990, Pamela discovered her husband Greg lifeless in their apartment, surrounded by signs of a burglary gone wrong. However, inconsistencies in her reaction and the nature of the scene raised suspicions early on.

  "If I walked in and found Vince what I thought was passed out, like maybe he hit his head and there was blood, I would run to his side and see if his heart was still beating like, yeah, that's a little like don't touch anything, don't mess up the crime scene kind of a thing."
  — [21:04] Georgia Hardstark

• Media Frenzy: Pamela became a media darling, conducting numerous interviews without showing much emotion, earning her the nickname "Ice Princess." Her poised demeanor contrasted sharply with the crime's grim nature.

  "We want to be in love, but we don't. We keep missing each other way."
  — [04:10] Karen Kilgariff (Referring to a TV series)

• The Involvement of Teenagers: Investigations revealed that Pamela had enlisted the help of three teenage boys to orchestrate the murder, promising them financial incentives. This revelation was pivotal in building the case against her.

  "Billy confirms to the police that he and Pamela were in a relationship. He says that Pamela said she would pay the boys $1,000 each to kill Greg."
  — [27:04] Georgia Hardstark

• Legal Proceedings and Media Influence: The trial was the first-ever "gavel-to-gavel" murder trial broadcast live on TV, amplifying media influence on public perception and the judicial process. The defendants were not sequestered, allowing external pressures to affect their testimonies.

  "The courtroom was full of photographers and, you know, people in there. Of course, it's huge."
  — [35:26] Karen Kilgariff

• Verdict and Aftermath: On March 22, 1991, Pamela Smart was found guilty and sentenced to life without parole. The trial raised critical discussions about media sensationalism, the reliability of testimonies, and potential biases in the judicial system.

  "Pamela, of course, has asked multiple times to have her sentence reevaluated...she remains in prison at the Bedford Hills Correctional Facility."
  — [39:40] Karen Kilgariff

Notable Quotes:

• "We must please the flight attendants."
  — [02:11] Georgia Hardstark

• "I'm sorry your feelings got hurt, but not by what I did. Just in general."
  — [46:24] Georgia Hardstark

---

Story 2: Lawn Chair Larry Walters' Flight

Timestamp: [52:16] – [90:25]

Karen transitions to recounting the extraordinary tale of Larry Walters, also known as "Lawn Chair Larry," who in 1982, turned his whimsical dream of flight into a reality using a homemade aircraft crafted from an aluminum lawn chair and helium-filled weather balloons.

Key Points:

• Inception of the Idea: Inspired by a childhood visit to Disneyland and a fascination with balloons, Larry embarked on his ambitious project after a decade-long relationship where he felt unfulfilled.

  "I realized that that was the way to go. I had to get some of those big suckers."
  — [55:56] Georgia Hardstark

• Preparation and Execution: Larry and his partner Carol meticulously planned the flight, acquiring 45 weather balloons, helium tape, and a robust aluminum lawn chair. They financed the endeavor with approximately $4,000—a significant investment at the time.

  "We spent around $4,000 on the Inspiration One."
  — [63:53] Karen Kilgariff

• The Flight: On July 2, 1982, Larry launched himself from Carol's mother's backyard in San Pedro, California. The plan was to ascend to a cruising altitude of 6,000 to 7,000 feet, drift over the San Gabriel Mountains, and land safely in the Mojave Desert by cutting balloons with a BB gun.

  "Around midnight a couple sheriff's deputies put their heads over the back wall and yelled what's going on here?"
  — [66:44] Georgia Hardstark

• Unexpected Challenges: A sudden gust of wind caused Larry's ascent to accelerate uncontrollably, taking him to 16,000 feet. Struggling with altitude effects and losing his BB gun—a critical tool for his planned descent—Larry faced a terrifying descent.

  "I wasn't gonna hassle with her because no way in Heck, you know, after all this, my life, the money we'd sunk into this town, I'd just come down. No way in heck. I was."
  — [72:04] Karen Kilgariff

• Rescue and Legacy: Miraculously, Larry's tangled cables interacted with power lines, preventing a fatal crash. Rescued by an onlooker's backyard pilot, Larry was fined but gained overnight fame, inspiring movies and maintaining a place in popular culture.

  "My mother thought maybe I was possessed by the devil or perhaps had post Vietnam stress syndrome."
  — [65:04] Georgia Hardstark

• Tragic End: Despite the initial success and fame, Larry struggled financially and emotionally, eventually taking his own life in 1993. His story remains a poignant reminder of the fine line between ambition and safety.

  "Larry Walter's 1982 flight on his homemade aircraft, the Inspiration One, has left a permanent impression on popular culture."
  — [86:57] Georgia Hardstark

Notable Quotes:

• "A man can't just sit around."
  — [87:46] Karen Kilgariff

• "It's ironic because the guy that owned the house... he was an airline pilot on his day off."
  — [80:55] Georgia Hardstark

---

Conclusion

Karen and Georgia wrap up the episode by reflecting on Larry Walters' adventurous spirit and how his pursuit of an unconventional dream parallels their own journey in creating the My Favorite Murder podcast. They acknowledge the risks and rewards of chasing one's passions, drawing inspiration from Larry's unforgettable flight.

"We strapped ourselves to this rickety fucking lawn chair. We just sat in it. We didn't have backup glasses?"
— [89:43] Georgia Hardstark

"We just have Simplisafe. You can look at your phone and everything's covered."
— [15:00] Georgia Hardstark

The episode beautifully intertwines tales of true crime with stories of human ambition and the complexities that come with them, leaving listeners both entertained and contemplative.

---

Additional Resources

• Documentaries:

  • Captivated: The Trials of Pamela Smart (Available on Peacock)

• Books and Articles:

  • "To Die For" by Joyce Maynard (Novel inspired by Pamela Smart's case)
  • Washington Post article by Manuel Roig Franzia on Pamela Smart

• Upcoming Projects:

  • A forthcoming documentary on Larry Walters' flight

---

Note: All timestamps refer to the podcast episode's timeline and are included to aid listeners in locating specific quotes and segments.

Transcript

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is exactly right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hi, I'm Bridger Weiniger, and each week I invite my favorite people from comedy to join me on my podcast. I said no Gifts. It's not just the title of the show. It's also my only request. And yet every guest disobeys. Listen. As unwanted presents, offerings, and trinkets are laid at my feet and the conversation turns to whatever bizarre item is forced on me, tension runs high. But I am a professional, and I keep things civil despite having every reason to rip my guests to shreds. Listen to I said no Gifts. Wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Thursday.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My savior.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hello and welcome to my favorite murder.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's Georgia Heartstart.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's Karen Kilgariff.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is a podcast we do for you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're welcome.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's fucky free.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Shut up. Karen has jet lag.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm so tired.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The theme of this episode is jet.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Lag is Help me, please. Can I just immediately start by describing the meal that I had on my.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Flight to Italy or from Italy? From.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And listen, look, I was on Lufthansa, an airline I love. Yeah, Classy. Remember when we went into that lounge?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I totally. I remember everything about that flight because we were running from the lava.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We. We were running from the law into the Lufthansa lounge where they had. Well, I. And I told Adrian and Janet all about it. The pretzel that I thought was filled with cream cheese. Remember on the. On, like, the buffet that had all the delicious items, and instead of it being cream cheese, I was halfway through eating that thing and I realized it was butter. Remember that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, but I want it just European.

[Georgia Hardstark]

High grade butter, where I was like, this is so good and crazy. Okay, anyway. What am I trying to say?

[Karen Kilgariff]

You ate a meal.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I ate two meals on this flight that almost, like, didn't make scents. Culinary scents. One was a beef dish that was on a bed of beets, and it was like boiled beef on a bed of beets. Sorry for all that alliteration. And I can't remember anything else on the dish, but I tried to be polite and eat it because I'm. You know, we must please the flight attendants.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I couldn't get through it, so I was just like, okay, I'll take that pretzel roll and I will just have that for dinner.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then when we got up, I was like, oh, okay, I'll just have this other thing and whatever the second one was. And now it's all leaving my mind. But it was like an equally bizarre turnip based dish.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like they took the leftovers and.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Put them together, but the leftovers from like 1928, like a bunch of root vegetables.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's throw them in there with some boiled protein. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Maybe boiled deer hind.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What would it be? Yeah, it was nutso. And then basically that kind of left me in this bizarre, like, what world am I in? Not sleeping, not whatever 10 hour, 12 hour flight.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Jesus.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then I just have not. I've not bounced back.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's terrifying.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, this is what it's like to lead a privileged life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And we've been gone so long. So we're in that weird. Like, have we talked about these things? Like, it's been a long time since we've recorded. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It feels like I've already told this story.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You might have, but not to me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not to you and not professionally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, and I have all these, like, you know, these shows and stuff. But you haven't watched them because you've been gone and then you've been what?

[Georgia Hardstark]

But wait, tell me the shows, because there's one that I literally watched with my jet lag insomnia at 4am this morning that was.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is it a series?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's like a true crime.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, it's not that, but which one is. Which one's yours?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Anatomy of Lies on Peacock.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Which one's that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's about that woman who worked on Grey's Anatomy and was fucking lying.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I haven't seen it yet.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And all these things. Like, it is the craziest. Like you think that's the lie and it's very Scamanda kind of vibes where you're like, yes, we all love a story like this. No one understands it. It unfolds out into many other things and it is so nutso.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that sounds. I can't wait to watch that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Really good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We definitely. Vince and I have been on a binging true crime thing. Like, there's only one that he was like, I can't watch that. Cause, like, that's your. You know, more your. So we've been watching just all of these, like every Menendez brothers thing you can think of and every, like just any documentary. We've been watching them. Yeah. And it's just like so satisfying.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's just a great way to spend time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It is. And then so this one, I was gonna say, has nothing to do with that. And I was really surprised at how much I liked it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And Vince fucking loved it too. It's not true crime. It's Nobody wants this with.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, the new series.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's fucking charming as shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I heard great things about it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Kristen Bell and Adam Brody.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And they're so cute, and it's sweet. I got choked up in the beginning of that. Like, we want to be in love, but we don't. We keep missing each other way. Oh, but then also, they got. They got three things really, really well that they could have fucked up. They got an L, A Jew. What it's like to be an L, A Jew. They got sisters. Like, they do sisters so well. And then they do podcasting. Like, they don't make me go. Like, that's not what it's like. They do podcasting. Like, I could have hated for so many levels and so many reasons, but they got it all right. It was really good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are you writing this show? I know right now what's happening.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's really cute.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, that's. I heard really good things. And people, of course, on TikTok talking about it all the time of, like, this scene. This, like, people are really into it. It seems like it's good. I watched a movie. I watched many movies on both directions of my flights. Did you ever watch the movie Monkey man that Dev Patel stars in and directed? It is so incredible. What is it? It's basically a revenge story. And it takes place in. I believe it's in India. Like, I think it's supposed to be Bombay, but I can't remember. It's so good. And it kind of was like. It hearkens back to. I was gonna say Million Dollar Baby. What's the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What's the one that broke him initially?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Something millionaire.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. Some dog millionaire.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Some dog millionaire.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's almost like he picked that story up and went back into that universe.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But it's incredible. Action.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it's like, you just kind of have to see it. It's so good. It's a visual feast.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What's it called? Monkey Man.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Monkey Man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And he directed it. He's starring in it, but he also directed it. It's like, this guy is incredible. Very cool.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That sounds amazing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's also one that's a French movie about a woman who lives as a bearded lady called Rosalie. That was so good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm running it down. Rosalie and Monkey Man.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And Monkey Man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. I have a book. One more thing for me. It's called Cats of the World.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think I read that to Nora when she was four years old.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's this book, okay. My cat, Mo's, foster parents. Their company's called Orphan Kitten Club. It's Hannah Shaw and Andrew Martilla. They are these incredible, like, they save animals lives all the time and they're vegan. Like, they double down on that shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're not fucking around. And they traveled the world. He's a photographer. They traveled the world and took pictures of cats in like, different incredible cities.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it's just this beautiful, you know, coffee table book of their love of cats.

[Georgia Hardstark]

How long did it take you to read it? Three weeks.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Mo and I have been savoring it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just every night you sit together, you show them a different picture.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's his bedtime story because they saved his life.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's very sweet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There were cats all over Sicily and so well taken care of.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, no skinny ones.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Always had a bowl of food and water somewhere very close by. Like, my favorite thing is countries that take good care of their stray cats.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's what they did. They went to all those places to, like, document it and to talk to the people who, like, take this seriously and love and care about cats in the same way they do. It's really sweet.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nice.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Cats of the world.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, I have a podcast and it's so funny because it's, you know, I think I might be nearing the end of my TikTok addiction where I'm like, I have to stop.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because it just is. I think it's frying my brain in a very real way. And I'm middle aged and I need to do something else with my time. But on TikTok, there's a guy that is pretty popular and he's Irish. He's from Mayo and his name's Garen Noon. And he, he starts every video going, hi, hi. You're getting on. And then he just starts ranting about stuff or talking about. He does a lot of food reviews. He's hilariously funny. And then he goes, follow me. I'm delicious is the last thing he says.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So he just started a podcast called Listen I'm Delicious.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Love it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And he's really charming and funny. He's also a musician. So, like, I've just seen, recently seen clips of him playing on, like, Irish tv because I guess he's gotten really popular over there. I think he's a big influencer or whatever. But I just was like, oh, that's so charming. Now you have a podcast. So if you like the sound of the western Irish coast accents and Irish people talking to each other and sometimes about being, like, getting popular on TikTok, like, the weird lives that they're leading. It's very charming and very, like, the easiest listen of all time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cute. What's it called?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Listen I'm Delicious.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I love it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right, good. I think we gave everyone enough.

[Georgia Hardstark]

God. And we just, like, sped through it. Like, click, clack, click. We did it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What more do you need? Go Dodgers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What else? Georgia loves baseball. She always has. It's her real personality.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's who I am. All right, well, you know what? You know what else? We have a podcast network. It's called Exactly Right Media. Here are some highlights.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, MAN on Do youo Need a Ride? This week, Chris and I are so honored that we got to host comedian Matt Walsh. You know him from Veep, and he's one of the founding members of ucb. Truly a charming human being. Wonderful individual. And we ran some serious errands with him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We were going all over Burbank getting stuff done for him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hell, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And he's hilarious.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, it's weird. When I saw that, I had a dream last week about him. Like, a very memorable. We were stuck in an elevator, and I was like, we have to Instagram live this. And we started Instagram living being stuck in an elevator together. Like, Matt Walsh for real.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And did you guys go viral in my dream?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, it'd be really sad if we didn't, because it's like, what do you think about yourself? Of course we went viral. And then Bridger Weiniger of I Said no Gifts is Brandy, Babs, and Tess guest on lady to Lady. It's a crossover, you guys.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Major crossover action over on that's Messed up, an SVU podcast. Karen Liza cover the SVU episode Goliath from 2005. And they talk with actress Amy Landecker, who's featured in that episode.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's so cool. And then, big news on the Exactly Right merch store. Finally, finally, we are shipping to the UK. Yes, someone figured it out. Go to the exactlyrightstore.com to see what store. New and exciting. There's a bunch of new items available this week, and now we can ship to the uk.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Incredible. Next up, Ireland. We gotta do it. Also, I think Erin Brown made a joke of, like, now people can get people who spell favorite with a. You can get merch that has favorite with. No, you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know. We should start making you favorite with you merch, probably.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, we'll see how they do. We'll see how much they buy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Have you ever handed out candy to trick or treaters and felt the judgment of their tiny eyes shooting out to you because you're not giving them King S candy bars?

[Georgia Hardstark]

If the answer is yes, then you might need to consider therapy. My friend, therapy is a place to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Explore your thoughts, feelings and behavior patterns.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Simply sign up for Talkspace and you'll receive a personalized match with a therapist or a psychologist, typically within 48 hours.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Talkspace provides personalized treatment for individuals, couples, the LGBTQIA community, veterans and teens.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If you're nervous about therapy and you aren't sure what to expect, Talkspace is a great solution. They're entirely online so you can experience the benefits of therapy without leaving the comfort of your home.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Talkspace has licensed therapists and over 40 specialties like anxiety, depression and relationship issues. Plus, these services are covered by many insurance plans and employers. Most insured members have a zero dollar copay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Once you meet your therapy goals, or if you want to cancel for any reason, Talkspace will provide you with a prorated refund for unused time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so funny. I've started seeing a new therapist in person for the first time since before the pandemic. My therapist moved away and we've been just doing it online and I am missing the online experience. Like there is just something about sitting at home, you know, somewhere cozy with your animals and it's just a little more comfortable when it's not like you sitting across from someone in the room. Like wondering if you're crossing your legs in a really weird way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it's especially if you are just beginning and you already feel so vulnerable about going to therapy. The online option can really be a.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Great starting point and as listeners of this podcast, you'll get $80 off your first month with Talkspace when you go to talkspace.com mfm and enter promo code SPACE80.

[Georgia Hardstark]

To match with a licensed therapist today, go to talkspace.com mFM and enter promo code S P A C E 80.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You'll get $80 off your first Month.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And show support for our show. That's talkspace.com mFM and Enter promo code SPACE80.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye. As Halloween approaches, you might have to make some big purchases like a giant pumpkin or a real human skeleton for your front yard.

[Georgia Hardstark]

These are necessary expense, but what if they could also help you build your credit?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Now you can build your credit score and your neighborhood cred with Chime.

[Georgia Hardstark]

With the Chime Secured Credit Builder Visa credit card, you can use your everyday purchases to work towards bigger financial goals.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Start building credit through Regular on time payments with no annual fees, interest or credit check required.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Join millions of Chime members who are working to make their financial goals a reality.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that's thanks to their Spot Me feature which allows you to overdraft up to $200 with no fees.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Where was this when I was 25? Chime has spotted its members over 20 billion to date. That's a lot of support to help people stay on top of their finances.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Turn everyday purchases into steps towards your financial goals with Chime's secure credit card.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Get started [e-mail] murder that's chime.com murder Chime feels like progress.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Banking services and debit card provided by the Bancorp Bank NA or Stride Bank NA members fdic.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The Chime Credit Builder Visa credit card is issued by the Bancorp Bank NA or Stride bank na. Spot Me eligible eligibility requirements and overdraft limits apply. Out of network ATM withdrawal and OTC advance fees may apply. Terms and conditions apply. Go to chime.com disclosures for details. Goodbye. All right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right. Well, I'm first go. This is a story you're going to remember. I'm surprised we haven't done it yet. I studied it a little in depthly because I thought I knew it because we. This is from the 90s. Like we grew up watching it and I think I kind of have a new take on it. Oh. So the story's about a case that wound up leading to the first ever, what's called gavel to gavel murder trial that was broadcast on live tv. First one ever. You wanna guess?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Menendez Brothers?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Was it 1990?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was early 90s. Like 91. Oh, 92.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Gavel to gavel.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Very first.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ted Bundy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, that would be weird if you think. I don't think that was. I'm doing Ted Bundy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm tired.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're right. I shouldn't be pressuring. I'm not frustrated. It was a massive true crime sensation, like, huge in the media in the early 90s and inspired a classic made for TV movie, among other things.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Stephen Stainer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No. This is the story of the murder of Greg Smart and the trial of his wife, Pamela Smart.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Remember?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. Yeah, yeah. It's all coming back to me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So if you are younger than us.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And you are, and you are, you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Will not remember the Trials of Pamela Smart and how bananas it was. And there's a documentary called Captivated the Trials of Pamela Smart on Peacock that really shows you what it was like back then because there's no Way to talk about the story without talking about how the media had a huge influence on it. I'm not saying, you know, the justice wasn't served, but it's. It's complicated, so watch that. Also, another source I used was an article in the Washington Post by Manuel Roig Franzia. And the rest of the sources can be found in our show notes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is Manuel the inventor of Franzia the box wine?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ooh, damn.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Could we, could we get that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wikipedia sponsor.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you like how I turn? Like my neck is broken.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Isn't it though?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Isn't it? In a way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Jet lag does a lot of weird things to a lot of weird people. Okay, spring of 1990. Where's Karen Kilgareff right now?

[Georgia Hardstark]

20. Oh, God. I'm working at the Gap in San Francisco.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thinking that that's all I'm gonna do for the rest of my life and being really bummed out about it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Imagine being 20 and thinking that's it for you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just like, well, this is it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is it. I get it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Low level retail, I think.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hot Topic for me. Oh, yeah, you guys, there's so much more to life. Don't panic. Don't panic.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What we do is we take that. The absolute misery that that causes us. That's what you have to take to. That's the gas propel you. Yep.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't mean that in 1990 I was on Hot Topic because I would have been 10. And that's child labor, which I think was legal back then.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But I like how you try to play along where you're like, yeah, we all were 20 at one point.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, when I was 20, I was. Yeah, I was doing it. Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. A ten year. Where?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Irvine. I don't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

On the couch in Irvine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

On the couch. It's spring of 1990. So Pamela and Greg Smart are a young couple in the kind of upper middle class town of Derry, New Hampshire. Pam is 22. Greg is 24. Their families are from the area. They didn't meet until she was back home from college, on a break from Florida State University. They meet, they fall in love, and then Greg moves to Florida to be with her while she finishes school. And Pamela studied media and communications and worked at the college radio station where she DJed a metal show. She was super into metal.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is gonna slowly come back to me. Cause it's like I know the name, but I do not know the details.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You probably remember the photograph of her in a bikini that became like the bikini photo Right. And she's got the like metal curly blonde hair. She's pretty, she's petite. She's played in the made for TV movie that was based on her life by Nicole Kidman, which doesn't match. Oh, but she's also played in a different made for TV movie by Helen Hunt, a young Helen Hunt. And that matches. Okay, so Pam and Greg move back to New Hampshire after she graduates. Her ultimate goal, she wants to basically be a Barbara Walters. She wants to be a talking head on the TV news. But you know what, she wants to be like a news reporter. Got it. Like the pretty, you know, news reporter. Yeah, she's got her shit together, but she can't find any decent paying entry level jobs. So she winds up working as a media specialist for several local schools around Derry where she has helps the kids with their school TV stations and manages a video library. A lot of times in the media in this case, they call her a teacher. And like, that's part of the like, lure of this case. It was like, you know, hot for teacher and she seduced her students. But she. What? I mean, she did do that, but she wasn't a teacher.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, okay. I know what now I know what you're talking about.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like kind of the first, I feel like one of the teacher seduces the kid thing and Greg goes to work at his dad's insurance business. And, and this is one of those cases too where like the victim is put in the backseat. There's not a lot of information I can find about him. It's really sad. It's kind of similar to Ron Goldman where like, he's a. He's a fucking footnote in his own murder story. So it's pretty Sad. So on May 1, 1990, six days before the couple's first wedding anniversary, Pamela comes home late from work around 10pm she'd been at a school board meeting. And when she walks into their ground floor apartment, she finds Greg lying on the ground in their entryway in a puddle of blood. She says she calls his name. He doesn't answer. She doesn't go over to touch him or help him. She doesn't go any further into the apartment, which is a little suspicious, and she runs to a neighbor's house instead. The neighbor calls the police saying Pamela's hysterical and saying that her husband is, quote, passed out inside her apartment. If I walked in and found Vince what I thought was passed out, like maybe he hit his head and there was blood, I would run to his side and see if his heart was still beat like, yeah, that's a little like don't touch anything, don't mess up the crime scene kind of a thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's weird because that is the kind of thing where it's. Who knows? It would be fascinating to be able to see some sort of scientific experiment where it's like 100 people, you open the door and their loved one is on the ground. What do you do? Because I think we assume this is the thing you would do. But we've learned over the years that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Maybe isn't the truth 100%. Everyone does everything differently. The fact that she said he was passed out, that to me is like, if you only thought he was passed out, wouldn't you have gone to his side?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because if she hadn't said that, if something was wrong with him or he had been shot or, you know, then I can understand it. So I'm not saying she did anything wrong, but based on what she's saying, it's like suspicious.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. But also, was it what the neighbors thought?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or was it what she exactly said? Word for word?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. The neighbor tells the dispatcher that Pamela says she doesn't know why he's passed out. And when the police arrive, they confirm that Greg is dead. His parents, who live nearby, race to the apartment and they're there when he's pronounced dead. And they both collapse. And the floor, grief stricken. As police make their way through the rest of the house, they find that it's been ransacked. The stereo and speakers have been pulled out from the wall, though they're still in the apartment. Drawers have been emptied onto the floor and a jewelry box is empty. And the medical examiner determines that Greg had been killed by a single gunshot wound to the head. The initial thought is that it was a robbery gone wrong, you know, but there's little to go on in that direction. Then people speculate that Greg's death may have been a drug deal gone wrong. But very early on in the investigation, Pamela starts giving lots of televised interviews, like lots and lots. She's always looking perfectly put together, like full makeup. She's very stoic, she doesn't cry. But she insists that her husband was not a drug dealer and defends him against that. And just she's very willing to answer questions in front of cameras, which again, might mean nothing. Just depends.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You could do takes on it in five different ways total.

[Karen Kilgariff]

One reporter recounts that he interviewed Pamela on what would have been her and Greg's one year anniversary. And remember, she had wanted to be a news reporter. She suggests to him that they get a shot of her looking like forlornly at the frozen top layer of their wedding cake. Just as, like a piece, you know, like, this would work really well on tv. The reporter is like, what? Okay, what?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. He's so creeped out, he runs away.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's creeped out by it. And he says that she's basically trying to produce the news package herself. And he finds that very strange. So over the next month, stories start to spread around town as they fucking do. The local teenagers seem to be saying that a few of their classmates were involved in Greg's murder. They're saying that Pamela offered to pay them to do it and that she gave them the money even to buy the bullets themselves. As early as two weeks after the murder, the police receive at least one tip over the phone that Pamela had actually arranged her husband's murder. So by the beginning of June, police are running down this tip. They're talking to local high schoolers, and then a man named Vance latimey brings in a.38 caliber pistol to the police station. And he says that he thinks it's the gun that was used to kill Greg. He thinks so because his son Vance Latamy Jr. Might have been involved in Greg Smart's murder. He's like, I think my kid took the gun. And he's part of this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And so very shortly after that, three teenage boys turned themselves in, including this kid. The other two boys were named Patrick Randall and Billy Flynn. All of the boys are like between 15 and 17 years old when this all goes down. And they're all kind of troublemakers, you know, they've got that like, Matt Dillon over the top thing, you know, the, like early 90s 80s, like, bad kid, you know, they break into houses, they like to steal cars, that kind of thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In fact, the main kid Billy in that made for TV movie with Nicole Kidman is played by a young Joaquin Phoenix with a mullet. And he is perfect. He has that like innocent, sweet in love thing, but looks tough and acts tough because he has to be tough in front of his friends. You know, it's. He's perfect.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, speaking of which, I watched Napoleon on the way over.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How's that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

And he's tough and he's sweet as Napoleon.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Psychotic.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It is. I was like watching it and I'm like, this is a nice long historical movie that's going to help me go to sleep.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I bet. He also the kid Billy, who's like the main kid Kind of looks like he's got, like a cute Paul McCartney thing going on, but like Paul McCartney in the 80s. So, like wings Paul McCartney, like, you know, with a mullet. So like these big puppy dog guys. So the boys are from a nearby town called Seabrook, which is a much poorer total working class area, much poorer than Pamela's hometown of Derry. So there are those troublemakers, you know, from the wrong side of the tracks. And here comes Pamela, all perfect and put together. And the boys actually go to one of the high schools that Pamela works at in the media department. So the police start to hear more rumors. The kids say that Pamela and Billy Flynn were seen together a lot and had on a student film together. And there were whispers that the two had been in a relationship. So people had seen them flirting and been together. Billy at that time, when she, when he was in Pamela's class, was 15 and she was 22. So Billy and Pamela tell conflicting stories about whom seduced whom, of course. But at the end of the day, Pamela was an adult. Billy was a child. There's no seduction by a child. That's not a thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So Billy confirms to the police that he and Pamela were in a relationship. He says that Pamela said she would pay the boys $1,000 each to kill Greg. In today's money. $1,000. 1990. Oh, 90.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is it like 15 grand? 2,400.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, 2,400.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I was that far off.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's not 15 grand.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Look, I've been traveling.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Some reports say that this amount was like. It was a different amount. There's some disagreement around there, but they. The idea was that we're supposed to get paid to kill Pamela's husband for.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Her, but also paid almost nothing. Like such an insanely small. Yeah, I mean, to them. To them, it's a lot. But that idea that it's just horrible, like human life, and that idea that it's just this, let's make a plan and then let's execute this plan. That's all there is to it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Think about. Think through it. No, absolutely. It's just like, such a waste. The boys say that on the night of the murder, Pamela had left the door unlocked for the boys to get into their apartment while Greg was out working. They said Pamela specifically advised them to shoot Greg, not stab him, because she didn't want any blood to get on their white leather couch and mess up their house. She also instructed them allegedly, to put their puppy, whose name was Halen, in the basement so that it wouldn't get hurt or traumatized. She was more worried about the puppy getting traumatized than her husband getting murdered.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Murdered? Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's just chilling. The boys say they let themselves into the house. They ransacked it to make it look like a robbery. They secured the dog and then waited for Greg to get home. And when he arrived, they overpowered him, and Billy shot him in the head at very close range. As for the why of it all, why Pamela wanted her husband murdered in the first place, the boys say that she said there was trouble in their marriage. Billy says that Pamela told him that Greg was having an affair. And she later said that he told her that he had cheated on her once, had a one night stand. Like, who knows if that's true at all, you know, but that was her. That was it. That was her, like, justification of why.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And does she know about divorce or. That's just not right. Yeah, totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She also told Billy that she would give him and his friends a cut of the $140,000 life insurance policy. In addition to what that small amount she was gonna pay them. In today's money, that would be worth more than 140 in 1990.

[Georgia Hardstark]

$250,000.

[Karen Kilgariff]

337.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's a lot. So over the course of the month of July, after the cops hear about all of this, the police build their case against Pamela. A big part of their case hinges on yet another teenager. This is a girl named Cecilia pierce, and she's 15 years old. She's Pamela's student intern as well as, like, friends with the boys. I think they're in this kind of, you know, like the movie River's Edge, like kind of the bad. The bad boy crew kid thing that are in the metal, that kind of thing. She comes forward to police and corroborates the fact that Billy and Pamela were in a relationship, saying that when Greg was out of town, Billy would sometimes stay there, and she had walked in on them at one point having sex.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So Cecilia agrees to record phone calls with Pamela and wear wire as well. And a lot of the tapes that result from these conversations are very hard to understand. But there are some clear moments when Pamela is urging Cecilia not to talk about her relationship with Billy. Pamela says, quote, if you tell the fucking truth, you'll send me to the slammer for the rest of my life. The recordings are so damning. And Pamela, throughout this whole process and through trial and through years and years, insists that she had nothing to do with it. But it's just these Recordings are, like. She tries to explain that maybe, like, she was just trying to get more information out of Cecilia so she could figure out what's going on. It's just.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But she directly said that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Of, like, don't tell the truth, specifically, like, admitting did this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. It's just hard to believe. So on August 1, 1990, Pamela is in her office at the school media center when the lead detective on Greg's murder case arrives. He says he rehearsed this on the way over, and it's like, he's clearly very proud of this. He says, quote, I've got good news and bad news. The good news is we finally solved the murder of your husband. And the bad news is that you're under arrest. Like, it's such a show. And I think a lot of arrests that we've seen through this podcast are for show. If they arrest you at your place of work or in a public place and handcuff you, it's. It's for show. And it's also to, like, influence the people around you that you are guilty. Because why? People see you with handcuffs on and being arrested, and they immediately think, wow, they must be guilty. Not, like, come in. We have to question you and then arrest you. It's a whole different thing. You know what I mean? Like, question what they do when you see that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Did they not. Had they not talked to her already?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, they totally had. Like, they did not have to do that that way. But that's almost like the beginning of the media circus of, like, look what we're doing. And we're arresting her. And everyone, including the people who are gonna be on the jury, see that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, this whole story is an instant media sensation, and it makes the national news. It catches the attention of a writer named Joyce Maynard, and she pretty quickly writes a novel called To Die for, based on the story, which is adapted into the movie starring Nicole Kidman, directed by Gus Van Zant. Like, talking about having your book, like, Peak, like, this is what authors want, you know, like, peak. But she does say, this is not based on truth. Like, the woman's name isn't the same in the movie. She embellishes a lot of stuff. She's making it all up based on this story. But I think people in the tribe and hadn't happened yet. I think people watched.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, it was a novel.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. The three boys all plead guilty before Pamela's trial begins. And here's where we start to see some problems. There's a fourth boy named Raymond Fowler, who waited in the car the night of the murder. He also pleads guilty. The boys are not sequestered from each other. They're put in cells together or close to each other. They're allowed to watch each other's testimony and discuss it. And many people say now that that gave them a chance to get their story against Pam straight. And these boys started talking when they found out that they would be charged as adults and faced life in prison. And then they all turned against Pam and agreed to testify against her, not saying she didn't do it and it wasn't her fault, but it's sticky.

[Georgia Hardstark]

As opposed to, you're saying, like, them being separate and then telling the truth or just being more direct. They. They were able to kind of orchestrate something.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's the same reason why jurors are sequestered from each other and the public, because they need to have their own opinion. But these boys were put together and kept together and knew that their testimony against Pam is what would keep all of them from getting life in prison. And so they were able to practice that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, and they're also given very lenient plea deals in exchange for testifying against her, which we always know is sketch. Like, you have to have more evidence than just the testimony if you're gonna do that. I mean, they have her recording, too, so that's damning. But they're not gonna be sentenced till after Pamela's trial concludes, so, like, it's almost like, you better deliver, and then we'll decide what you're. Yeah, right. And then also Cecilia, the young woman who says she knew about all of it, she's given a movie deal before she. Even before the trial's even over.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm trying acting, writing, like, her story.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, so, like, the more over the. And she goes over the top, and she is very, like. She's like a media darling in this whole trial. And she gets a movie deal worth $100,000 before the trial's even over.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's insane.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know how much that's worth these days?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, everyone's been so incredibly wrong. I'll just throw 400,000 out there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

234,000.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not even. I'm not adjusting my guesses to what you are telling me in any way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I wouldn't either.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Numbers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Numbers. They're tired. So, like, yeah, of course she's gonna deliver. Of course she's gonna make it sensational and make it, you know, over the top. It's. At this point, you've kind of Tainted her testimony.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It feels like everybody involved was very new to the effect of, like, the media on. Right. Because up until this point or up until around that time, that wasn't really a thing people had to deal with. So nobody knew, like, oh, yeah. And then the press is gonna come in and influence. People are gonna talk or people are gonna. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The courtroom was full of photographers and, you know, people in there. Of course, it's huge. And also, they asked for, of course, to, like, move the trial to a different city, because this is huge news here and everywhere, but definitely here. Everyone's heard about it. Everyone has an opinion about it. The judge said no, and he also later said that he hopes he gets played by Clint Eastwood. So, like, everyone was ready. Ready.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Everybody's high on their supply.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly. Yeah. So I'm not saying she's fucking innocent. I personally don't think so at all. However, these are issues that need to be discussed when we're talking about true crime.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Pamela's trial begins on March 4, 1991. This is, as I said, the very first trial to be broadcast in its entirety on live tv. It's a massive story across the country. One newspaper runs a whole article every single day solely about what Pamela wears to the courthouse. And she looked very demure and very put together and always had a bow in. Do you remember that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Those clip in bows? Yeah. Oh, yeah. They were like the barrette that held your ponytail. Yep.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Always had a bow, you know, very demure, very mindful, very cutesy. And she's nicknamed the Ice Princess in the press because she doesn't cry. She doesn't show a lot of emotion. Despite all of this, the huge media attention, the jury's not sequestered until the second day of the trial.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Huh?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So another.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They just didn't get around to it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're like, go mingle. There's a great Italian restaurant down the street.

[Georgia Hardstark]

See how you feel. Feel?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

With. With the locals. That's insane.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The locals, they know what happened.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So Pamela's defense team argues that she did not tell the kid that she was sleeping with Billy to kill her husband. They said Pamela told Billy that they could never be together because of her husband and that Billy misunderstood this as saying that he should kill Greg. You know, the prosecution leans heavily on testimony from the teenagers, particularly Billy Flynn, who, like, cries on the stand, as well as on the tapes from Pamela's conversations with Cecilia, which, as I said, they're really hard to understand. So when you put them up word for word, it is a little bit like someone saying, yes, that's right. Rather than how a natural conversation flows, which is mm, mm, mm. Whether you're agreeing, you know, it's just kind of like not good enough to really be used the way it's used. But she does incriminate the ever loving shit out of herself.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Other evidence includes a photo of Pamela in a bikini, which became famous, which the prosecution says she gave to Billy. Although later it said that she and her friend took those photos to like submit to some contest, you know, some magazine contest or something. But they love it. They love this, like, vixen. They call her a teacher and they just like make this really big deal about it. And of course, those photos are also wildly circulated and discussed in the press. Like, fucking. People were rabid over this case.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So on March 22, 1991, Pamela Smart is found guilty of being an accomplice to first degree murder, conspiracy to commit murder, and witness tampering. And she's given a mandatory life sentence without the possibility of parole.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow. New Hampshire.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, Hardcore. And actually, one of the jurors later says that she didn't want to convict Pamela Smart. She said, I would have remained adamant and hung the jury if I had known she was going to get life.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wasn't she on the jury? How did she not know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

She didn't think the defense or the prosecution did a great job. So she wasn't sold completely. And actually she was recording her thoughts on her tape recorder every night. And that's in the documentary captivated the Trials of Pamela Smart. So it's pretty interesting to hear her thoughts. It's been 34 years and she remains in prison at the Bedford Hills Correctional Facility in Westchester, New York. What's she doing in New York? This happened in New Hampshire. Well, she was transferred shortly after her conviction, seemingly to get the media attention away from the New Hampshire prison she was being housed at. She and other supporters think it was just to like, sweep her under the rug and get her out of there. And in fact, there's only been four female prisoners in New Hampshire that have ever been incarcerated outside of the state. So it's a little bit like she thinks she's trying. They're trying to get her away from her family or just to come of throw her away. What do you think of that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know. Yeah, I mean, because there were a.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Lot of protesters outside after the trial and kind of just like to shut them up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They got rid of her just so nobody questions what has happened.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. While she's been in prison, she's earned a master's in English Literature as well as a master's of science in law degree and other degrees as well. And she's now working on a doctorate in ministry. Oh, yeah. This is really fucking awful. According to Pamela Smart, one of the prison guards sexually assaulted her in 2003 and forced her to pose in lingerie in the same way the bikini photo that was circulated had been taken and sold it and made money off of it. And just a horrible situation.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And she says he threatened to kill her and he threatened to kill her family if she told anyone. And the photographs were published in National Enquirer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, the National Enquirer was so involved in that kind of shit that you're like, why are you guys reporting on this?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You guys are supposed to be, like, Hollywood tabloids, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

This isn't that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it's so sad. Like, her face in these photos. I saw them in the documentary. Are just blank and devoid. And you can absolutely see it being, like a coerced photo, in my opinion, obviously.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right, Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The guard has since died, so the boys who committed the murder have all since been released from prison, even the one who pulled the trigger, after serving sentences of about 25 years each. Many people see a level of unfairness in the fact that Pamela is still in prison, even though she actually didn't commit the murder, which that can be argued. I'm not saying I believe that or not. And the coverage around the story at the time was undeniably sexist. And some people see Pamela's sentence as an extension of that sexism, being like, here's this vixen, you know, make her pay. Exactly. Other people believe that Pamela did use her position of power and authority to sexually abuse a teenager, which seems pretty clear, and coerce him to do her bidding and think that this is actually a totally fair deal that she's spending life in prison. You know, like, she essentially pulled the trigger herself. Just didn't pull the trigger.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was her plan.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So Pamela, of course, has asked multiple times to have her sentence reevaluated, especially as states have started to reconsider some life sentences. She's been denied every time. And so the documentary and all these articles are really interesting. She's denying having anything to do with it over and over again. But in this past June, for the first time ever, she takes responsibility for having some role in her husband's death.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Whoa.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She finally is like, I am the one to blame for his absence. From this world. However, she doesn't give any specifics. Like, I told him to do it or I wanted him dead and told them to. It's like. It's more like if I hadn't done this stuff with this boy, then he wouldn't be dead. So she doesn't totally cop to it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. She's, like, taking responsibility for the situation.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Being what it was. I see how I'm to blame for this unfolding this way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Which is like, okay, well, maybe she didn't have anything to do with it. And that's true. But who knows, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Who knows?

[Karen Kilgariff]

And of course, people think it was just a bid to get parole anyways, because you kind of do have to show remorse if you're going to get parole, you know? And also, she doesn't mention Greg's name in her statement once. Oh, yeah. And that is a story of the murder of Greg Smart and the trial of his wife, Pamela Smart.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When you first said her name, I thought that was the woman who Gary Hart had the affair with. Remember, you're too young. You're way too young. But, like, those names that were kind of bobbing around in the 80s and 90s or whatever, I was just like, who could this be? But then, as you were telling it, it's like, oh, this is to die for, which I've seen and every. Which is, like, incredibly prejudicial. If you watch that movie, it's so campy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's, like, purposely camp. I mean, it's Gus Van Zant. It's, like, purposely campy. And I do recommend watching.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's a good movie.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's very fun.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But you have no doubt in your mind she's guilty in that movie, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's a seductress in that movie.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's fucking Nicole Kidman. Like, come on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, what's the truth?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think we know, but what's the answer? I think in this case is the.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, I mean, I don't. I mean, you did the research, so you probably are closer to it, but to me, it's like she absolutely could just be a sociopath that wanted her husband out of the way and was like. Like, she's in her 20s or early 20s.

[Karen Kilgariff]

22.

[Georgia Hardstark]

22. And married.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And going to hang out with, like, high school boys that she's suddenly like, I want this life back.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But, yeah, it all doesn't really. It's like, to me, when it doesn't add up like that, where it's like, did you get some big payout Is there a way we can track this back to why you would. It's just that thing of, like, why would people risk this when they almost never get away with it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Totally. Of course you're not gonna get away.

[Georgia Hardstark]

With it, especially when you involve three teenage. Four teenagers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And the, like. Just the callousness of, like, the person you love, having them murdered is like. It's disgusting. And, you know, she insists it's because he cheated on her and that, like, ruined her, but you have to have been a sociopath this entire time for that to be the case. Most people just break up if they're that upset about it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. And then, like, get your revenge by marrying somebody better or richer or hotter or, I don't know, anything.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It is weird. It's just kind of like that. Yeah, it's that kind of. You just painted yourself into a corner, and then you're just like, no, I didn't. And it's like, well, you're standing there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And we can all see you in the corner. It's such a made for TV movie that it's almost absurd that it is actually true and it actually happened that way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And there's so many crimes like that, women or men, where you're just. It's like, it's the old Fargo.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And then in the whole story, I.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Have a little bit of money, right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Greg Smart's poor family and the whole thing is, like, pushed to the side. And they don't get to memorialize their, you know, their loved one in any way because it's been just kind of totally usurped by the killer, which is just sad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And she won't acknowledge it, or I am responsible for him not being on the planet anymore. So do you know how people see you? Because you can dance around it all you want. That's just you not being able to admit. But we're watching you not be able to admit something.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's saying, I'm sorry you're hurt.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, exactly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Same thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Exactly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm sorry your feelings got hurt, but not by what I did. Just in general. Yeah, well, how about that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thanks for your non apology. All right, well, great job. That was, I mean, a real walk down memory lane. Pamela Smart. This podcast is brought to you in part by Squarespace.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, Karen, spooky season isn't just about watching scary movies and picking the perfect costume.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, that's right. If you're a professional witch or an actual demon released from hell, it's also an important time to build your brand.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And what better way to do that than with Squarespace?

[Georgia Hardstark]

They make creating and managing a Website Easy with Squarespace's new design intelligence, combining 20 years of design expertise and AI, you can build a stunning personalized website that fits your unique needs, streamline your.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Workflow and grow your business. Send invoices, get paid and manage leads all in one place, making it easier to handle everything from proposals to contracts.

[Georgia Hardstark]

With Squarespace, selling content has never been easier. You can put online courses, videos and members memberships behind a paywall, earning revenue with one time fees or subscriptions and.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Managing payments is a breeze. Set it up in just a few clicks and start accepting payments right away, offering customers options like Klarna, Apple Pay, Afterpay and More.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Easily connect your social accounts to reach more customers and simplify the buying process.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Get discovered faster with Squarespace's built in SEO tools. Each site comes with meta descriptions, auto generated site maps and more to help you rank higher in search results globally.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Go to squarespace.com for a free trial.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And when you're ready to launch, go to Squarespace to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's squarespace.com murder goodbye nothing matters more.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Than the safety of your home and family.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The problem with old school security systems is that they only act once somebody is already inside your home.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that's where SimpliSafe Home Security comes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In with Active Guard SimpliSafe's 247 monitoring agents closely watch your property and stop crimes before they happen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The cameras use advanced AI to distinguish between friendly faces like family and neighbors, and potential threats, alerting agents to suspicious individuals before they get close to your home.

[Georgia Hardstark]

These agents can talk directly to the intruder, sound a loud siren, flashlights, or.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Even alert the police, while other systems only react after a break in, SimpliSafe combines live monitoring and proactive protection both inside and outside your home.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In this day and age, when we aren't home that much, the idea that you have a monitoring system that can help you so that you don't have to just sit there and worry or be concerned or wonder what's happening and you actually can know for a fact is such a huge advantage. It's such nice peace of mind so that you're not just making up situations in your mind, you just have Simplisafe. You can look at your phone and everything's covered.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. So protect your home with 50% off a new SimpliSafe system plus a free indoor security camera. When you Sign up for Fast Protect.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Monitoring, just visit simplisafe.com fave that's simplisafe.com fave. There's no safe like SimpliSafe.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hey, it's that cozy time of year when crafting, cooking and decorating become part of your routine. Not mine. But some people like that kind of thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's true. And if you're getting ready for the holidays, why not make the most of it by listening to Audible while you work?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Listening on Audible helps your imagination soar, especially when you're diving into a thriller, ghost story, or anything in between.

[Karen Kilgariff]

With thousands of titles released each year, Audible has the best selection of audiobooks, along with popular podcasts and exclusive Audible originals. And it's all in one easy to use app.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Enjoy Audible anytime while doing other things. Household chores, exercising, commuting, you name it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You'Ll find endless inspiration and entertainment without needing to set aside extra time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Check out Jacob T. Marley by R. William Bennett. Narrated by Simon Vance, this retelling of A Christmas Carol shifts the focus to Scrooge's business partner, Jacob Marley, exploring why he was allowed to return as a ghost. And if you had a chance for redemption like Scrooge, this one can last you from October to January.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If you want a good audiobook for this, like spooky Cozy Season, highly recommend the Midnight Feast by Lucy Foley. It's set basically in a big haunted mansion. There's weird stuff going on in the forest, people are disappearing. It's just perfect for the cozy holiday.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's more to imagine when you listen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

New members can try Audible now free for 30 days with your first audiobook.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Included, visit audible.com murder or text murder to 500. 500.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's audible.com murder or text murder To 500. 500.

[Georgia Hardstark]

To try audible free for 30 days, audible.com murder Goodbye. Well, we don't really have to take much of a left turn on my story from your story because there is a connection that's a little bit like it's another story of kind of like media darlings, okay? Or media people that, you know, burst into the media. So we begin this story on the afternoon of July 2, 1982, in San Pedro, California. It's a waterfront neighborhood about 20 miles south of downtown Los Angeles, and it starts in the small backyard of an unassuming house on West 7th street where a 33 year old truck driver named Larry Walters is bracing himself for something amazing. In an act that will soon change Larry's entire life, he sits down in an aluminum Lawn chair. And while that may not sound particularly extraordinary, it's no ordinary lawn chair, and Larry is no extraordinary guy. That's because he's transformed this department store aluminum folding chair into a vehicle that he names the inspiration one. And in it, he will achieve his lifelong dream. Today, Larry is going to take flight. This is the story of lawn chair Larry Walters and the bizarre stunt that captured the imagination of America. Are you ready?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I am so ready.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is one of those things that, like, I can remember this happening. You know, I was 12 when this actually happened, and it was on the news. I remember how much Letterman loved him. He went on Letterman, of course, like, it was one of those things. And it makes me think it's like, a little sad, especially if you think of, like, AI, where it was back when people kind of people being eccentric and having original ideas was like, could get you onto a talk show and you didn't have awareness that that was what your thing was going to get you to. You weren't trying to do it, you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Were just doing it to do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You were just trying to follow your dream, and that's what Larry was doing. So the main sources used in this research Today are a 1998 New Yorker article entitled the man in the flying Lawn chair by George Plimpton.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He got in the New Yorker. Oh, yeah, damn.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And George Plimpton is like a pretty legendary writer. And that's the main article. It's heavily cited throughout this story. There's also a website dedicated to this event set up by a pilot named Mark Berry. And then, of course, there's various Associated Press articles from the early 80s. And the rest of the sources are in our show notes. And if you want to go, if you're interested in reading that article, you should absolutely go and watch Larry's segment on Letterman, because Letterman is the happiest he's ever been in his life. It's very cute. Okay, so Larry Walters was born in Los Angeles in 1949. There's not that much to learn about his early childhood that's out there. What we do know is he grew up with his parents and two sisters, but not much else. Articles about Larry do often mention two specific details that feel particularly relevant to the story that follows. One is that Larry's father is a war veteran who served as a bomber pilot in the Pacific. And the others that when Larry was around 8 or 9 years old, he has a formative experience while visiting Disneyland. And it's so hilarious to me because I had this exact same experience. But the results were quite different. So Larry will later tell George Plimpton, the writer, that, quote, the first thing when we walked in, there was a lady holding what seemed like a zillion Mickey Mouse balloons. And I wow. I mean, you get enough of those and they're gonna lift you up. So that was, I think, like how Disneyland used to be.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I think we have a picture. Cause we went to Disneyland when I was five and it was Mother's Day and my birthday.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And so walking in was like. It's like I can still see it in my mind. But the person. I wanna say lady. But it was his lady. For him it was a lady. I think for us it was a man. But they hold like, literally like 50 to 70 balloons, right? You've seen it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it really is kind of like real balloons too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not just like doofus party balloons, like Mylar and like decorative and incredible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think it's where my passion for balloons began.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A balloon within a balloon. I remember the first time I saw that, I was like, what?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Who put that balloon?

[Karen Kilgariff]

And there's confetti in it too. Are you kidding me?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Incredible. A balloon that looks like a mouse. I didn't know that was possible in Maryland. So the idea of using balloons to lift a person into the sky gets embedded in Larry's young mind, becomes something of a fixation. So when he's a preteen, he starts tinkering with gases and fuel and even creating his own hydrogen generators to use to inflate balloons.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. Balloon passion. There's nothing I relate to more.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hashtag balloon influencer who loves balloons.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Write in and tell. Tell us. So Larry will later say, quote, my mother worried a lot. So in terms of making rocket fuel, especially when I was making rocket fuel and it was always blowing up on me or catching fire.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Jesus Christ.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's a good thing I never really got into rocketry, or I'd probably have shot myself off somewhere.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's amazing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

End quote. So when Larry's 13 years old, he has a light bulb moment. He sees a weather balloon on display at the Army Navy surplus store. So. So if you're not a big balloon nerd like me and Larry, I will explain to you that weather balloons are balloons, but they are much thicker. They're made of thicker material than an average balloon. That enables them to rise higher. They're also pricey. A single high quality weather balloon can cost anywhere from 5 to $500, depending on their size. I did shop them and they get really big like really big.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How do they tell the. I don't know anything about them other. And they pretended that they were UFOs. Yes, but we fucking know the truth.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We know, all right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't care how they. Yeah, it doesn't matter to the story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What was your question?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know. How do they work?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, weather balloons. How do they work? They tie like meteorologists and the people that want to know specific stuff about what's going on up there. They tie kind of small. I think I'm about to explain. I think Maren puts it down here, but. Oh, yeah, here, I'll get to it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They have an explicit function. Weather balloons are used to carry small scientific instruments into the atmosphere to collect data from meteorologists like wind speed, humidity, temperature. They can typically reach heights anywhere from 60,000 to 105,000ft.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Which in today's feet.

[Georgia Hardstark]

How many feet could that be? Today? They're useful scientific tools, but it's usually not a product civilians would buy. Certainly not in bulk. But when Larry sees his foot first weather balloon, he feels an awakening inside his heart. He would later say, quote, I realized that that was the way to go. I had to get some of those big suckers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I felt that way when I saw Corey Feldman for the first time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I need him and I need to fly up into the air with him. So 13 year old Larry doesn't really have the resources to buy a bunch of expensive weather balloons. So his dream remains a dream for now. Years pass and Larry graduates from high school. He considers following in his beloved father's footsteps to become an Air Force pilot. But he has bad eyesight, so he. That immediately puts an end to that idea. He still wants to enlist in the military though. So he ends up serving in the Vietnam War. He's an army cook, which I think Marty wasn't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Marty, Marty, my dad was an army cook.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They might have known each other.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So around this time, Larry's father begins losing his battle against emphysema. So the Red Cross actually flies Larry home twice to spend time with his dad before he dies. And when Larry's father eventually passes away, obviously it's an enormous loss. After serving in Vietnam, Larry returns to the us he finds work as a truck driver. And when he's in his mid-20s, he meets a woman named Carol Van Dusen. And they followed. To me, this is just as much a love story as it is a balloon story, which I kind of love. So he and Carol fall in love, but Larry still can't get his mind off of his first love, the weather balloon from the Army Navy store. But he doesn't hide this from Carol. And here's a quote from him. He says, quote, I was honest with her when I met her. I told her, carol, I have this dream about flight and this and that. And then she said, no, no, no, no, you don't need to do that. Yeah, So I put it on the back burner. Then 10 years later, I got a revelation. It's now or never. I gotta do it. So in 1982, Larry takes Carol to lunch at McDonald's and he delivers his pitch. He sketches a blueprint of his idea onto a paper placemat. And it's essentially a mock up of a chair connected to dozens of large weather balloons. And he shows it to Carol.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no. What if, like you're sitting across the levee or life? And he's like, hey. And you're like, yes, yes, what is it? Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's like, I have a balloon dream.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Look here, here's a chair.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Focus. You want me to buy you more fries? Focus. So what I love is this. And it's. He basically sketches it out, shows her, tells her this aircraft, which he will eventually name the inspiration one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's a pretty fucking solid name.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it's this guy's thought it through and it's kind of a fucking great idea in every way. So he's basically explaining to her that he could lift himself into the air, catch eastward winds, drift a few hundred miles over the San Gabriel Mountains, and then basically land in the Mojave Desert. And there, Larry would safely lower himself by shooting the balloons one by one with a BB gun.

[Karen Kilgariff]

God, no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's such a 1982 idea. It's hilarious.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then what?

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then just like. And just drink a Fanta and live and be and high five somebody. So instead of brushing him off or leaving him entirely, Carol sees how serious he is. And she's also been dating him for 10 years, so she knows flying is his lifelong passion and obsession. And according to Larry, Carol hears him out before finally saying, quote, well, it's best you do it and get it out of your system.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So romantic. Side note, Larry is now a 33 year old man. Okay, now, Carol has some conditions. Before Larry does anything else, she tells him that he has to buy a parachute and then learn how to use it like that. So he does that. He finds a flight school in Paris, California and completes a parachute jump. And then before long, Carol becomes an active participant in helping Larry achieve this flying Sweet. It's very sweet. So Larry and Carol figure that launching a person into the sky probably involves breaking maybe a law or two. So they keep their operation low key to avoid suspicion. They forge a document claiming the balloons are for a production company and will be used in a commercial shoot. Okay. And then they buy 45 weather balloons and 55 helium tape.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's too many.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so many. It's like. It's like the cartoon up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like it could float a house. So next they buy an $100 aluminum lawn chair from Sears that will become Larry's captain's seat during his flight.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think I have this one. Is it one like. They have the, like, nylon stripes and shit? The old school ones?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You can still buy those. I have them in my backyard. They're the best.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But what's crazy is how much did it cost you to buy that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

A lot more than it was back then.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, but $100 1982 is insane for an aluminum lawn chair.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Mine was like, 38 bucks.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, so. And how much would $100 in 1982 money be today? 350. 326.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nice one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I learned from you. I learned from your mistake.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So it's kind of hilarious. They went and got, like, the best alone quality.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I guess you're going to want to buy the best quality. You don't want to scrimp on what, your fucking pilot seat?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not in that. Not what all the balloons are going to be tied to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So in all, Larry and carol spend around $4,000 on the inspiration one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's a lot.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The dream in general, which is in Today's money, about 4,000 in 1982.

[Karen Kilgariff]

775. 7,075.

[Georgia Hardstark]

13,000. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's a real investment.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm sorry, Vince, but, like, you can't. Your hobbies can't cost that much, sweetheart.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're just gonna make a small wrestling ring in the backyard. Just go with me on this. But I mean, there's something about that that's like. Yeah, it is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sweet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's not gonna do it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She just has to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And he's probably supported her dreams up until this point, whatever they may be like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I hope so.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's love. That's true love.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I hope it's like, Larry, you do your thing. I would love a lighted mirror that shows me what I'll look like in day, evening, office.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're never gonna believe what at May.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Company, the good people at Clairol have already made that for you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're not going to believe it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So it's all starting to feel very real. And of course, this plan is making Larry's loved ones very nervous. He says, quote, my mother thought maybe I was possessed by the devil or perhaps had post Vietnam stress syndrome.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She wanted me to see a psychiatrist. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, she's not wrong. No, I don't disagree. I don't think you're crazy. But I also disagree with.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, it's always good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He doesn't do it, of course. Needs a man instead. He and Carol pick a launch date. July 2. The launch site is going to be the backyard of Carol's mother's house in San Pedro. Carol's mother is not particularly thrilled to be hosting this launch event, but she basically eventually buys in and lets them do it. So in the hours leading up to the flight, Larry and Carol are joined by a few friends. I. I mean, how fun would this fucking be?

[Karen Kilgariff]

So fun. But my immediate thought, July 2nd in Los Angeles. What happens?

[Georgia Hardstark]

They're already setting off fireworks already.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're illegal here. It's like the week before and the week after, especially in places like San Pedro, like, you know, working class neighborhoods. It's fucking insane. I would not want to go in the air with balloons that close to the fourth of July.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And maybe it is potentially a little post Vietnam.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But also, is it not just, let's seize the day and do this fucking thing before I decide not to do it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm like equally parts impressed and horrified by this whole thing. I love it all. I know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I also want to buy those folding chairs from my backyard that you can get them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You can get them because the pastel.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The color blocking and that they design this. So nice. They're so good. So Larry and Carol and all their friends work together to secure Larry's lawn chair to the ground with steel cables to ensure that the chair won't float away as they're attaching the weather balloons to it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then it begins. Over 40 weather balloons are inflated.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God, that's so many.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Each to around 7ft in diameter.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's too many.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They're humongous. The friends and volunteers arrange these inflated balloons into rings, methodically tiering one above the other. And nylon covered cables bind each tier. These tiers lead down to the lawn chair, which acts as the aircraft's base. There's nothing subtle or secretive about what's happening in the backyard. As the inspiration one takes shape, its highest tier of balloons float about 200ft in the air, Larry says, quote, around midnight a couple sheriff's deputies.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, is it night too?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, they worked on it all day and basically around midnight a couple sheriff deputies, this is the quote, put their heads over the back wall and yelled what's going on here? And then I told them we were getting ready for a commercial in the morning when the sun came up. A lot of police cars slowed down. No wonder. But they didn't bother us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow, paperwork.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Paperwork. White people in the 80s.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And also the brilliant move of this is the Los Angeles basin. You can explain anything away with we're shooting something.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're shooting a thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's a movie, it's a TV show.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Absolutely.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So me. Meanwhile, around 30 empty milk jugs are filled with water and attached to the seat of the lawn chair. And they're going to balance the inspiration one, keeping Larry upright and stabilized when he becomes airborne. So they'll also play an important role as he descends. Toward the end of this flight, Larry plans on slashing the jugs to releasing the water and removing some weight. And then that will give him a softer landing. Okay, so now it's around 11am on July 2, and the inspiration one is ready to. Larry steps into his parachute pack. He loads up his supplies which include a two way radio to stay in touch with Carol on the ground. So sweet. An altimeter to measure altitude as he goes and a 35 millimeter camera so he can take pictures while he's up there. Oh my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's a human drone. Yeah, I love it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's the first drone ever. He's the first drone ever.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Drone.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He also has his BB gun, pistol and spare BBs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Any power bars? What have we got?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Some lunch?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Shut the fuck up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, the BBC.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's all I think about first is like aren't you hungry?

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're going to get hungry if you fly all day. The BBC's notes quote. With his plan of a pleasant afternoon floating ahead, Larry packed himself a few sandwiches, some soft drinks and strapped himself into the chair.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You got to have a picnic. Please give me a lunchable and I'm fucking happy. I'll go anywhere.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What kind of chips do you think he packed with that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, you gotta back then, I don't know, did they have sun chips back then?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Then it's gotta be something gnarly like Doritos. Yeah, gotta be some nice Doritos.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I bet Doritos were like the breaking snack of the day.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Absolutely.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, so the plan is to now slowly Raise Larry up about 100ft over Carol's mom's house. Let him hang there for a little bit, get his bearings. He'll get acclimated to what he's doing before they actually release him. So Carol and the others cut all the ties tethering the inspiration to the ground, except for one. Are you stressed?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Stressed out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So if Larry senses any sort of issue or if he decides to call off the flight last minute, they will use this tether to pull him back down.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You didn't say how he's strapped into the chair. There has to be, like, seatbelts, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I actually don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, let's pretend there is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, seatbelts. I wonder. Here's my guess, that if he has those water jugs, that something is across him like two water jugs with a bungee cord across his lap.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's no way he's raw dawning them seat.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Alejandro Alejandra, do you mind looking it up and see if you can find out? He's raw dogging it. A couple articles I'm seeing say there's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No seat belt or anything.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's no seatbelt, is the answer to that question.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. So essentially, they've got this kind of safety measure so he can, like, test out being up there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So that's the plan. So Carol and the others cut all the ties, tethering the inspiration one to the ground. Except for. And as Larry bobs upwards, he is not given any time to get his bearings as planned. Instead, the upward pull of the massive balloons immediately snap the final tether. And instead of a gentle ascent, Larry is suddenly launched upwards.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fuck.

[Georgia Hardstark]

One article describes him as being, quote, shot from a cannon into the sky.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So it's such an intense pull that Larry's chair flings forward and his glasses fly off his face.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no. I can't even see.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So Carol's watching from the ground as Larry rockets into the sky. With panic in her voice, she radios up to Larry and begs him to come down. What if he gets pulled out over the ocean or drifts into restricted airspace?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Now he doesn't even have his glasses. How's he gonna know where he's going? It's all so real. But Larry remains calm. He radios back, reassuring Carol that he's gonna be okay. He tells her that he has a backup pair of glasses in his shirt pocket, ready to go.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Lar and Larry will later say, quote, I wasn't gonna hassle with her because no way in Heck, you know, after all this, my life, the money we'd sunk into this town, I'd just come down. No way in heck. I was.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did he say, no way in heck?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, for real. I was just going to have a good time up there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cute.

[Georgia Hardstark]

End quote. So this is Larry's lifelong dream. They've made it real. He's gonna savor it. And he later says, quote, the higher I went, the more I could see. And it was. I could see the orange funnels of the Queen Mary. I could see that big seaplane of Howard Hughes'the Spruce Goose.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's all Long beach, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

With two commercial tugs alongside. And then higher up, the oil tanks of the naval station, like little dots. Catalina island in the distance. At one point, I caught sight of a little private plane below me. I could hear the buzz of its propeller.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's terrifying.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The only sound. Yeah. I had this camera, but I didn't take any pictures. This was something personal. I wanted only the memory of it that was vivid enough, end quote. Can you imagine how 1982, that is where he's like, I have the option to take a picture, but you know what? Forget it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is for me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No one can do that in 2024.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It didn't happen if you didn't fucking take a picture.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, that's right. So as he flies, Larry keeps tabs on how high he's going using his altimeter. He's treating this flight almost like a plane ride. He's a. He plans to level off at a cruising altitude between 6 and 7,000ft and then drift over toward the Mojave Desert, which is the weirdest. Like, I'm gonna plan to land in one of the most dangerous places you could go to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Redondo Beach. There's a fucking great restaurant right on the pier. Tony's on the pier. Like, land there? Exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, drink a beer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Don't do it in the lowest get so high seat.

[Georgia Hardstark]

How about you land in Dodgers stadium? Yeah. Fucking make a scene. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Go Dodgers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So for a sense of how high this is, of how high, 6 or 7,000ft. Like what he's planning. One World Trade center, which is the highest building in the United States, stands at around 1800ft tall. So you would have to stack four of those on top of each other to get to an elevation of 7,000ft.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How does he not pass out? I don't know the details, but we're.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Going to talk about those details, okay? But Larry's moving so much faster than he anticipated that he immediately overshoots 7,000ft and very soon hits 16,000ft. He's now nearly three miles up. Very dangerous for a person in a lawn chair to travel this high of an altitude with no plan for oxygen supply. The temperature has dropped to somewhere between 5 and 10 degrees. Larry's toes are numb.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no, no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's so high, he's being spotted by airline pilots taking off and landing at lax. No one pilot alerts air traffic control and reports, quote, we have a man in a chair attached to balloons in our 10 o'clock position.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They were like, that pilot's drunk. Get him out of the fucking cockpit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Seriously. So things are starting to get a little out of control very quickly. Larry remains calm, though. He really has the heart of a pilot. He just picks up his BB gun and he aims at the balloons above him and fires. A few fall beside his chair. This levels out his ascent. So now Larry gets to. But when he puts the gun back in his lap to check the altimeter and make sure the inspiration one is actually leveling off, a sudden gust of wind jolts his ship and the gun flies out of his lap.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Tell me he had an extra, like his fucking glasses.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God, he would later say, quote, to this day, I can see it falling, getting smaller and smaller down toward the houses. Three miles down, I thought, I hope there's no one standing down there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was a terrifying sight. I thought, uh, oh, you've done it now. Why didn't you tie it on, Dude, I had backups for most everything. It never dawned on me that I'd actually lose the gun itself.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You gotta, you gotta dawn on everything.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You gotta dawn on shit if you're gonna put yourself into the stratosphere.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Dawn on every possibility. Would you please, can you please, Carol?

[Georgia Hardstark]

And this is bad. Larry has just lost his only tool to ensure his descent.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He thinks about flinging himself out of the chair and using the parachute on his back to get down to earth safely. Okay. But then he realizes that some of the balloons were actually torn when he shot up into them. So the ones that fell weren't the only ones that were affected. There were tiny tears in some of the remaining balloons, and he is now losing helium in those balloons. So he reached realizes that the inspiration one is starting to gradually descend.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Now, Larry wants to let Carol know that he is landing, so he picks up his CB radio, but he can't reach her. He does manage to connect with an emergency operator who naturally is very confused by what Larry is telling him. This is how he explains his situation to the emergency operator. Quote, the difficulty is this is an unauthorized balloon launch. I know. I am interfering with general airspace. I'm sure my ground crew has alerted the proper authorities. His ground crew, which is like three drunk friends.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly. His friends that are drinking like fucking Zima all night. Wine coolers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Too early for Zima.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, they were, but they've been overnight the whole night. Oh, too early. Yes, yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In the years.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wine coolers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's like Coors. Coors with the pull tab.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or maybe like the pop top had just come out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm sure my ground crew has alerted the proper authorities, but could you just call them and tell them. I. Okay, just tell Carol that I love her and I'm doing fine. Please do over.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're not doing fine. You're buddy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And also you're. What are you doing? This is CB Radio. Emergency operator. Yeah, okay. The operator's voice is described as, quote, squeaking in disbelief. So by the time Larry's done making this call, the inspiration one has fallen to an elevation of around 2000. It then begins plummeting towards the earth at a much faster speed. So obviously it's going and going. And as the helium is leaving these balloons, nothing is replacing it. So it's like a descent that then is just gaining speed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, plummeting is one of those words where. Please don't ever have that in a paragraph with my name on it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We don't want to be plummeting.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No one wants to plummet.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So Larry grabs a knife and frantically slashes at the water filled milk jugs, balancing the inspiration one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because they're weighing him down. So he knows he has to lighten the load to hopefully slow the fall. Water gushes from the jugs, but it's not enough. Now Larry can make out rooftops of the houses below and power lines.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If Larry collides with those power lines, he will be electrocuted. But by some insane stroke of luck, instead of hitting the power lines directly, the nylon covered cables that have been connecting Larry to the weather balloons are the ones that get tangled in the power lines first.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because he's not falling straight down.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. So they like. Yeah, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And because they're covered with nylon, it is not conductive. They act as a barrier between the inspiration one and the electric power lines. So Larry not only avoids, very narrowly avoids being elected, but he also avoids smashing into the ground. So he gets caught on the power lines, not electrocuted, and saved from hitting the ceiling.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sometimes people need to be taught a little bit of a lesson, you know what I mean? Like lose a finger or something.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't forget his toes are really cold.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, his toes are cold. His toes are cold. Yeah. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Larry's scrappy flight comes to a fittingly bizarre ending with him dangling just a few feet above the ground in someone's backyard in Long Beach.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In Long Beach. Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Larry will later say, quote, it's ironic because the guy that owned the house, he was out reading his morning paper on a chaise lounge next to his swimming pool. And, you know, just the look on this guy's face. He hears the noise as I scraped across his roof. And he looks up, and he sees this pair of boots and the chair floating right over him under the power lines, right? He sat there mesmerized, just looking at me. After about 15 seconds, he got out of the chair. He said, hey, do you need any help? And guess what? It turns out he was a pilot. Oh, my God. An airline pilot on his day off.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What are the fucking. Come on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

To make sure that Larry can be safely brought down from his lawn chair, the power is shut off to this area of Long beach for about a half an hour.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Curious residents pour into to gawk at Larry until someone grabs a stepladder and actually helps him down out of his chair.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, he deserved it. He deserved to stay where he is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He should have hung out and, you know, thought about his actions. Once on the ground, Larry is put into a cop car, but he's released almost immediately because the cop isn't really sure what laws he's broken.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Larry says, quote, he said I'd be hearing from the faa, and I was free to go. I autographed some pieces of the balloons for people who came up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hell, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

One of amazed onlookers is a young boy who reports often refer to as quite simply a neighborhood kid. He asks Larry if he can have the lawn chair, and Larry says, yes, Hell, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that's how Sublime was started. Long Beach. We're in Long Beach.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nice. But he'll soon come to regret this decision. Carol will later say, quote, that chair should be in the Smithsonian. Larry always felt just terrible about that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Why fucking. Who's that kid now? We need to hear from him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, we will shut the up. After his flight, Larry gets slapped with a $4,000 fine from the FAA for various violations, which in today's money would.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Be like you already told me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You already told me $4,000 in 1982 money 13. Yes, exactly correct. My brain works dead on. Thank God we had our first perfect in today's money Guess, cuz.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Only because you told me before. But it's like the game memory. I could have not guessed it. Remember the 4000 of what they spent on the fucking whole project? And you told me and I wasn't going to get it. And I can't believe I did. And I'm doing better than I thought I was. The fact that I got it right isn't the. Isn't the prize. The prize is that I remembered something.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's not a pure. It's not a clean. In today's money.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, it's. But it still is a win for me though.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It is a win.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm not. I'm 44 and I remember that you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don'T have to worry about your brain the way I have to worry about my brain.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just get some hdr, man.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay? On the road, Larry appeals that fine and it gets reduced to $1,500 because as the FAA eventually concedes, we're proud of you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're kind of impressed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We kind of love you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like kind of high five, bro.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We wanted really drink some beers with you. You're our type of guy. The quote is actually the flight was potentially unsafe. But Walters had not intended to endanger anyone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Since one has intentions fucking matter to the FAA especially. I mean, you know how they are.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They are such bitches. Meanwhile, Larry becomes an overnight 80s folk hero.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I love it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He pops up all over popular culture. There is a lawn chair flight much like Larry's written into an episode of the A Team.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, really? I bet Vince remembers that. Okay, I'm going to ask him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Larry is given a brand deal with Timex.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hell yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And as Carol later tells writer George Plimpton, quote, that Times cartoonist Paul Conrad did one of Ronald Reagan in a lawn chair with some sort of caption, like another nut from California takes a.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Beat and keeps on ticking. Is that it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's Timex, yes. Okay, Larry's mother. And we're still in the quote, Larry's mother was upset by this and wrote a letter to the Times. You know how mothers are. End quote. So Larry appears as a guest on Johnny Carson and David Letterman. He describes his appearance on Late Night, which is Letterman's show, as, quote, the most fun I ever had because they.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Were all on so much cocaine because.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They were high on Larry's great idea and cocaine. But Larry seems caught off guard by the enthusiastic response to his flight. He tells reporters that Quote, I didn't think that by fulfilling my goal in life, my dream, that I would create such a stir and make people laugh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That makes so much sense because so many people don't live their dreams. He fucking.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it's simple.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And also, he's sincere. He's not doing it to do it. He's not. It's not a little show. He's like, no, no, I want to fly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. He's not an aviation influencer. He's just a fucking aviation enthusiast.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's a weather balloon aficionado like myself. Despite all the attention, Larry doesn't make much money off the flight. Ten years later, he still hasn't recouped the $4,000 that he and Carol spent on it. And meanwhile, Larry and Carol drift apart.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, that's great wording though. They drift apart.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, Maren. Maren really knocked her out of the park on this one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She really did.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She really did.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Drifted out of the park.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They drifted apart. But she didn't italicize it or anything. I don't know if she knew that she did that. After spending 15 years together, the two eventually go their separate ways. But they do stay friends. In his early 40s, Larry becomes an enthusiastic volunteer with the U.S. forest Service and spends a lot of time in nature. But tragically, in 1993, 44 year old Larry is found near his favorite hiking spot after taking his own life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. It comes as a total shock to his friends and family members. He doesn't leave a note. It's a heartbreaking end to an inspiring story. And Larry will always live on as a testament to human will. He stands as proof that dreams, regardless of how impossible or silly they might seem, can come true. Larry Walter's 1982 flight on his homemade aircraft, the inspiration one has left a permanent impression on popular culture. It inspired the movie Danny Deckchair, which is like a later. I think it's from the late 90s or early 2000s. This year, a British musical called 42 Balloons premiered to good reviews. Cute. If you're in anywhere in the uk, buy it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fucking my favorite murder shirt. Please go in and wear it to 42 balloons.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And also Larry's story is going to be the subject of a forthcoming documentary.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It also has an ending that he would probably love. That I wrote that in. I don't know, Larry, but it sounds like he would. In the early 2000s, the neighborhood kid who asked for Larry's lawn chair back when he landed comes forward. It turns out he kept it in Storage all these years. So it was in pristine condition. It was exactly as Larry had left it when he jumped out in the airline pilot's backyard. The inspiration one was handed over to the Smithsonian and is now housed in the National Air and Space Museum.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fuck, yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Doesn't that make you kind of want to cry?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Curator Tom Crouch has said that Larry's lawn chair, quote, symbolizes the freedom of flight and the desire to achieve flight. That's embedded in all of us. Who hasn't dreamed of doing something like that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

End quote. Or as Larry Walters told reporters after he kind of landed the tangled inspiration one on that auspicious July day in 1982. Quote, A man can't just sit around. And that is the amazing story and the human victory of lawn chair Larry Walters.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I really do feel like I might cry. Do it. Like, that's so inspirational.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know. It rules.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's so dangerous and terrifying.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So fucking dangerous because he fucking did it. It's so dangerous. But he did it. His lady helped him do it. And also. And his friends and their moms.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's kind of gorgeous. And then also, it's just that idea of people wanting to kind of get up and see. This is where we live. This is what we are.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And life is more than just the nine to five and the blah, blah, blah. It's like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And your fucking phone and the stupid shit you see in there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, it sucks that you're colorblind or whatever. He had bad vision and you can't do. You can't live your dream. But, like, there's other ways to live your dream than in the fucking ABC way that everyone fucking tells you. You have to do it. Do it a different way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I wish I could clip out that and then send it to myself in 1996, when I found out for the millionth time, I didn't get the dumb audition that I was auditioning for, because I didn't even really want to be doing that, but I thought it was my dream.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can you show yourself right here doing a fucking true crime comedy podcast?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I could, but I think I'd be like, I'm on so many diet pills. I'd be like, what the fuck?

[Karen Kilgariff]

And what's the podcast?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, we've done it. Our dreams have come true.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We fucking did it in the weirdest way. And I'm proud of us. And I feel like Larry paved the way for us.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think he did. I think that podcasts are our weather balloons. We strapped ourselves to this rickety fucking lawn chair.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We just sat in it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We sat. We didn't have backup glasses?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, we didn't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We didn't have fucking BB gums.

[Karen Kilgariff]

BB gum. That's scary.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're just floating.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're floating and we're on our way to Redondo, and we're just fucking doing it. And look at us now. Look at us now. Crash landing into success.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Stay sexy and don't get murdered. Goodbye. Goodbye, Elvis.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you want a cookie?

[Georgia Hardstark]

This has been an exactly right production.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Our managing producer is Hannah Kyle Crichton.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This episode was mixed by Liana Scolacci.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our Researchers are Maren McClassian and Allie Elkin.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Email your hometowns to my favorite murdermail.com.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at my favorite murder and Twitter at myfavemurder. Goodbye.