453 - Shoulders Back

Summary

Episode 453 - "Shoulders Back" Summary

My Favorite Murder hosts Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark delve into two compelling narratives in this episode: the heart-wrenching true crime story of Delamar Vera and the historical investigation of John Snow during the 1854 Cholera outbreak in London. Their engaging discussions blend meticulous research with their signature blend of empathy and humor, making complex stories accessible and deeply moving for listeners.

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1. The Disappearance and Reappearance of Delamar Vera

Overview

Karen and Georgia recount the mysterious case of Delamar Vera, a newborn who vanished from her Philadelphia home under suspicious circumstances only to reappear six years later. The story highlights the emotional turmoil of Delamar's mother, Luz Cuevas, and the systemic failures that hindered the initial investigation.

Key Points

• Initial Disappearance (00:20:23): On December 15, 1997, Luz Cuevas discovers her newborn daughter, Delamar, missing after a sudden fire breaks out in her bedroom. Despite frantic searches, Luz finds no trace of her baby, leading authorities to attribute the disappearance to the fire.

• Lingering Doubts and Reappearance (00:25:43): Years later, in January 2004, Luz attends a family event where she encounters a six-year-old girl named Aliyah, who bears an uncanny resemblance to Delamar. Through DNA testing, it is confirmed that Aliyah is indeed Delamar, who had been raised by a relative, Carolyn Correa.

• Systemic Failures (00:27:06): The case underscores significant communication barriers, as Luz's limited English skills prevented her from effectively advocating for a thorough investigation. Additionally, the lack of immediate DNA testing in 1997 further complicated the search for Delamar.

Notable Quotes

• Luz's Frustration: Georgia [00:25:50]: “Luz tries repeatedly to get the police to investigate this as a missing person's case, but they say the baby died in the fire and they won't pursue the matter any further.”

• John Snow on Epidemiology: Georgia [00:37:14]: “Once Delamar got into her teenage years, things got rocky. She had no support. She needed mental health support.”

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2. John Snow and the 1854 Cholera Outbreak

Overview

Transitioning from modern-day true crime to historical epidemiology, Karen and Georgia explore the pivotal role of Dr. John Snow in identifying the source of the 1854 cholera outbreak in London. This segment highlights Snow's groundbreaking work that laid the foundation for modern public health practices.

Key Points

• Cholera in Victorian London (00:48:01): In 1854, London faces a severe cholera outbreak, claiming over 14,000 lives in the city alone. The prevailing miasma theory attributes the disease to “foul air” from decaying matter, but Dr. John Snow challenges this notion.

• Investigative Approach (00:55:35): John Snow meticulously maps cholera deaths, identifying a cluster around the Broad Street water pump in Soho. His observations and data analysis suggest that contaminated water—not air—was the culprit.

• Impact and Legacy (00:66:25): Snow’s removal of the pump handle leads to a dramatic decline in cholera cases, validating his hypothesis and paving the way for the acceptance of germ theory. His work underscores the importance of clean water supplies and informed public health strategies.

Notable Quotes

• John Snow’s Theory: Karen [00:58:07]: “John Snow decides he's gonna investigate further, and he starts to lean more toward a very controversial germ theory, which argues that diseases are spread not by foul air, but by invisible microorganisms, often through contaminated water or contact.”

• Skepticism and Confirmation: Karen [01:06:08]: “So, this system lasts until the 19th century when it's replaced by more modern, updated systems. Also in 1897, England starts using chlorine to purify the water supply.”

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Conclusion

In "Shoulders Back," Karen and Georgia adeptly weave together a modern-day true crime narrative with a historical account of epidemiological breakthroughs. Through their detailed storytelling and poignant reflections, listeners gain a deeper understanding of both personal and public health tragedies, highlighting the enduring importance of vigilance, advocacy, and scientific inquiry.

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Notable Timestamps:

• Delamar Vera’s Disappearance: 00:20:23 – 00:36:33
• John Snow’s Investigation: 00:48:01 – 01:06:08

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Note: This summary excludes advertising segments, introductions, and outros to focus solely on the episode's primary content.

Transcript

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is exactly right. Hey, it's Karen Kilgarev. Hey. And I'm Chris Fairbanks. And we have one burning question for you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you need a ride?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Each week on our podcast do youo Need a Ride? We drive around with some of the most hilarious people in comedy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Listen and laugh with us as we.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Run errands, grab some drive through and.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Of course sit in traffic. It's la, so there's so much fun traffic.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So check out do youo Need a Ride Wherever you get yout podcasts new episodes every Monday. We did it first. My Favorite Love.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hello and welcome to My Favorite Murder. That's Georgia Hardstart, that's Karen Kilgara.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And we're here to very professionally record a podcast.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And the just possibly worst week that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We could do it in, I mean, which we've said every week.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's true.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But this week. So if you're listening on Thursday, which is the only day from then on you could be listening, you need to know we're recording on Monday, the day before the election.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So we normally. We're pretty good at mind reading and telling the future. Like we're pretty good at that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're prognosticators.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Deep down.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Excuse you, but we're not right now because we have no fucking clue what's going to happen. So.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, you know, I mean, are you feeling the stress?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, of course. How could you not? Nobody is confident. I mean, one person's fucking confident.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, nobody feels safe enough to be confident because all any of us can do is remember the times we were confident.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Go back to. We haven't done the rewind of the 2016 post election. Amazon 5 star reading, comment reading, because that's all we could fucking handle. So hopefully next week, guys, it'll be a celebration of women's rights and non.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Codifying Roe v. Wade and actually getting this fucking shit back together.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So, speaking of politics. Just kidding, did you watch. I'm changing the subject. Did you watch the new fucking Zodiac documentary?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I was just. The people I was eating dinner with last night told me how incredible it is, okay?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's totally incredible. It's called, it's on Netflix. It's called. This is a Zodiac speaking and it's about Arthur Leigh Allen, who is like everyone's almost everyone, except for if you're on Reddit's Favorite Suspect, right? And this. I don't wanna tell you everything, but basically his like kind of stepchildren from around that time are coming forward. And like, here's what. Here's our story about him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it's fascinating. And I'm just. I have no doubt in my mind. I kind of always figured it was him, just on the. Based on the evidence. But this is like. This is creepy. This is the most you've ever heard about him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I can't wait to watch it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, you're gonna love it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But when I got home last night. Cause everyone was like, watch this series. This series, whatever. And when I got home, I was like, there's no fucking way I'm watching a zodiac true chime dog series right now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, you need your British shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I literally turned on the first British thing that I saw that I'd never seen before, and pulled up the weighted blanket and was just like, oh, my God, take me away, Butler from Downton Abbey.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And your British is a weighted blanket.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Essentially, it's a double weighted blanket. Awesome.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it's great. You'll love that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Great. Also, did you see episode two of Breath of Fire?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I haven't watched any of it yet. Oh, my God. Ah. Min. Tonight. No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Write it on your hands. Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Bring it down. There's like. So Joe Berlinger is coming out with a new JonBenet documentary, which, like, he makes everything legit. And you're like, oh, JonBenet. I know it. But, like, that's gonna be an amazing doc. There's so many good ones right now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Amazing. Yeah, I'll get around to those. February, February, March. But Breath of Fire.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think it's because. And I think we talked about this. It's the Kundalini yoga documentary, and it is so LA in the 90s. 2000s.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's shots of Golden Bridge where I was like, was I in that class? Because this is all anyone was doing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Crazy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I didn't know it took place then. Yeah, I figured it was, like, the 2000s, because yoga.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. Breath of Fire. I'll watch it. I just finished a book that made me think a lot, which was fun.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's called Hear One Moment. It's by Lynn Moriarty, who wrote, like, all the. All the, like, TV series that you've watched with Nicole Kidman as the, like, dramatic lead, you know, like, Pretty Little Lies and all that. Like, she wrote them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So this one is about these people in Australia. They get on a plane, and in the middle of the plane ride, this older lady stands up and starts going down the aisle, pointing at people and telling them how and their age of when they're gonna die, like, in a trance. You. You. This and that. And then the rest of the book follows those people who got the ones that are like, you're gonna die soon, as well as her, and kind of tells you their whole life stories and like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And not real.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, but the question is, like, no, no, no. But the question is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry, we were just talking about documentaries. I'm like, this is incredible. When did this happen?

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's a good point. I did not specify. But the point is, like, you know, it's like, does fate exist? Can you change your future? Would you want to fucking know? Like, would you want to know me? Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no, no, no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If she were passing out, age and cause of death, would she be like, give it to me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no, no. Then you're just sitting there in your house being like, uh, uh, here comes March. Yeah. Like, why would you do that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

So that's this book called Here One Moment. It's amazing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is the subtitle of that book Final Destination?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's good. Cause you're, like, holding your breath the whole time because you start to, like, care about these characters who are supposed to die soon, you know, Also just.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In an enclosed space on a plane.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like that, you can't move.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And she's up and she's in a trance.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And then you find out why she's doing it, like later in the book. And you're like, oh, fuck.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Her attention.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, it's like sad. It's kind of sad. You want to hate her and then you don't hate her. I don't know. It's good. It's good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I bought so much makeup.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can I have some?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, absolutely. Because there's shades I got absolutely wrong, but I keep on trying new foundation before we record these goddamn things on video. I don't know, I just have to say it. Cause, like, my skin's a little bit burning right now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Your skin looks great. Very, like, creamy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Really?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is that a gross word for things?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think it's great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Skin looks great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It really was. I wish I could have shown you, like, sitting in a lighted up mirror.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, that's. You can't do that. It's been fun though, like, putting on makeup again after the pandemic. Because this is like the first kind of time I've been like, actually regularly putting on makeup.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I'm older, so it's like everything has to be different.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We gotta work the shades and the sides, the filter and the toner and the fucking.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ugh. All of it. Thank God for the Sephora sale.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But here's Seriously. But here's also the thing that. Cause we've been talking so much about doing this and planning it and scheduling it and da, da, da. And then you realize, oh, it used to be like, when I was younger, it used to be if you did something like this, it was this big deal. These days it's like, what? Filming, doing a video, putting out a video, being in video. Like, any of that stuff, it is truly like, okay, bye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And if you look like shit, it's gonna be gone within fucking 12 hours. No one's gonna even look at it unless.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And no one cares anymore. It's not like that anymore.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can I tell you the first photo that comes up when you Google my name and yes, I fucking Google my name. Everyone googles or fucking. Is the one of the worst photos of me I've ever seen in my fucking life. I mean, and I don't know how to get it down.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think you can pay somebody.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm like slouching in a way that I can hear my mom yelling at me and she's fucking right. Like, that's the worst part about that photo. Every time I look at it, I'm like, janet was right. Janet, you look like fucking shit. Sit up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, also, I think the thing of, like, the Instagram ification of everybody's brains is really bad. Not only because I'm a middle aged woman who's like, oh, this has always sucked for me, but the fact that it makes you think. Same with like dating apps. It makes you think that that is what matters or that is informing you about what the person you're seeing. And it, like, you have this shorthand of like, not valuable. Valuable, not valuable. It's just what we do. It's very human, but like, it isn't in any way true or accurate. So you've got people who couldn't be more gorgeous who are insanely insecure to the point of, like, won't leave their house because they think they're not as pretty as a person who has a filter on their face and never looked like that in the first place.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or people who are not fucking gorgeous and they still have so much. That doesn't mean you don't have anything to offer the fucking world. Like, I don't have anything to do with perfect and gorgeous and pretty. I can just exist and, like, take up space. There's no, there's no like, rule or there is a rule, but I can fucking ignore it. That I have to be pretty to matter.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I fucking don't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, and the rule, quote, unquote, it just changes person to person. So, like, what I think is attractive is completely different than what you or anybody else thinks is attractive. So we're actually making up that, oh, I'm disqualified. I'm disqualified, over and over based on completely random, where it's like the person in the corner is in love with you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry to tell you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. These are all great points, and I agree with all of them. However, I should sit up straight.

[Karen Kilgariff]

However, I have to get a different face foundation.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Shoulders back.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Shoulders back. Also, I read a thing where when you sit in the posture, when you hold the posture with your hands behind you, kind of touching your lower back, and you kind of rub that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Get the one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's good for aging. It's good for your aging health as you age.

[Georgia Hardstark]

To rub your lower back or to sit up like that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

To sit up and rub your lower back. That's a little Chinese medicine I'm getting on TikTok that I really love, where I'm like, is that the trick?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, maybe we should get, like, posture things for these chairs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. What if we got kind of like straight up and down, like we're on the Voice, where we, like, spin around? We could also strap our necks to the back of them so we're just never. Sounds good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. Some tape. Some tape pulling our entire faces back. So we cut through that in a real quick, quick second. We breezed through the opening. Let's breeze through the highlights from our network. Exactly right. Media. Karen picks her microphone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You gotta hope. You gotta hope.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This fucking Bridger has been recording in here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's like. And they're right. As a guest, will you please rub your head on that mic? Okay, you go. Okay. We have a podcast network and it's called Exactly Right. And you're here on it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We'd like you to go to other places on it as well. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Listen to the other podcast. There's a fucking lot of good ones.

[Karen Kilgariff]

For example, this week on lady to lady, the gals are joined by comedian Danielle Perez. They have a hilarious chat. They answer a listener's lady problem. Danielle Perez is a hilarious standup comic and friend and. And, you know, just a person that's been around for a long time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And we have a lot of lady problems on this podcast.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Clearly, on this podcast, we have lady problems.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And on another podcast hosted by a bunch of great ladies, this Podcast Will Kill youl, Erin. And Erin, bring you part one of the series, All About Retinoids. Like, I have been using them, stealing them from my mom since I was too young to be using them. You know, it's like teen makeup TikTok thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Was it the one, the thing that was like red then white then red? Yes, I did the same thing and burned the whole fucking thing on my face. It was all pearlescent, creamy, beautiful. And I just got a huge dollop of it and like put it on my cheek.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So stupid. So check out this podcast.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We'll kill you retinoids. Erin and Aaron will actually tell you the scientific stuff behind retinoids, not these little anecdotes that we told you. Also, if you missed it in person, this is your chance to listen to Bridger's I said no Gifts live show. He recorded it at the Bell House in Brooklyn last month. Bowen Yang was a guest. Jeff Hiller was a guest from somebody somewhere, the show we love so much. Sydney Washington was a guest.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's incredible.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hilarious. Speaking of gifts, you can now purchase a card version of Bridger's game Gift or a Curse that he plays on the show. You can own it, you can play it with your family during the holiday. Go to the erm store to buy that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And while you're shopping, check out all of our new items for the season, including a festive sweatshirt with crows wearing Santa hats. I mean that's a deep fucking cute.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, and they're sitting on a phrase that says my favorite murder.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. We said we like crows. It's the holidays. We also have a cozy hot dog sweatshirt. Like I just said, we have new stickers, we have frickin ornaments and so much more. So go to exactlyrightstore.com Celebrate with us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This holiday season, please. You know Georgia, we're barreling towards the holidays and it's time for the annual gift shopping Battle Royale.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yay. Get ready to shove an old lady or just grab a flat screen out of her hands.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And after a day of fending off strangers at the mall, you know that you've earned a warm cup of Beam's Dream Powder.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And you'll drift off to sleep before you can ask yourself, am I a bad person?

[Karen Kilgariff]

We are excited to talk about Beam's Dream Powder. It's a science backed healthy hot cocoa for sleep.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Other sleep aids can cause next day grogginess. Oh my God. I know. But Dream contains a powerful all natural blend of Reishi, magnesium, L theanine, epigenin and melatonin to help you fall asleep, stay asleep and wake up refreshed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Check out Beam's limited time. Holiday flavors like white peppermint, mocha and gingerbread get em before they sell out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean you've talked about your sleep issues in the past. I recently and it is because of menopause but I've been having sleep issues. It is the worst. It is like when you are in that situation, you're just laying there, you don't know what to do. There's no worse feeling. And the idea that now I can just get up and go to the kitchen and make myself a cup of hot cocoa that is, it isn't just for my emotional needs but actually is going to have the ingredients that are actually going to help me go back to sleep. It's a dream come true.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

Beam better. Sleep has never tasted better. Goodbye. This podcast is brought to you in part by Squarespace.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hey Karen, it's the giving season. Time to share your bounty with your fellow man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, what's your angle?

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Does this time of year bring back memories of getting into a physical altercation with a family member about whether you should make mashed potatoes chunky or smooth?

[Karen Kilgariff]

If the answer is yes, then you might need to consider therapy, my friend.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Therapy is the place for you to explore your thoughts, feelings and behavior patterns.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And when you sign up for Talkspace, you'll match with therapist or a psychologist, typically within 48 hours.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

There's really no reason not to try therapy. I mean, these days I feel like everybody kind of knows that. But Talkspace is a way of kind of tiptoeing into the shallow end of the pool and making sure that you're comfortable. There's nothing worse than having to try something as vulnerable and as difficult as therapy and feeling like you're totally exposed or that you're making this gigantic commitment like Talkspace makes it so that you can try it on your own terms and at your own speed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And as a listener of this podcast. You'll get $80 off your first month with Talkspace when you go to talkspace.com mfm and enter promo code SPACE80.

[Karen Kilgariff]

To match with a licensed therapist today, go to talkspace.com mFM and enter promo code S, P A, C E80.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You'll get $80 off your first month and show support for our show.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's talkspace.com mfm and enter promo code space80. Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm first. Which means it's the bad one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know what I mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like that's what it's become.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's all pretty bad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean. Yeah, it's all bad. I'm gonna tell you a fucked up story that, like, sounds like a plotline in a soap opera.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But it's not. It's frickin real. Obviously I wouldn't be. This is not fiction.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's true crime.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Today I'm gonna tell you the story of Delamar Vera. Not gonna give you more info on that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The main sources I used in the story are an article by Anna Moore in the Guardian and that previews the new documentary that's about to come out about this case in the UK on UK tv. And then also I used reporting from the Philadelphia Inquirer and the rest can be found in our show notes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is it BBC1 or BBC2 or BBC3 or BB2?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's coming out this week on UK. On UK. I think UK TV is like not BBC essentially.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't think so.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What's UK TV?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think that might be the generalized. Like it's gonna be. It's coming out over there and we'll get it later probably. I feel like if there was a channel called UK TV, I'd already be paying 17.99 for it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Couldn't you check on that, Alejandra? That's what Ali wrote.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If I just found out that there is a new app that I should have joined long ago, I'm gonna be really upset.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's like a multi channel broadcaster owned by BBC Studios. There you go. We were both right. Sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's literally a thing called UK TV that I can get so I can watch UK tv.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is not an ad for UK tv.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I might have to get up and leave the studio right now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Go program your recording box. There might be something like a you streaming service. She'll figure it out later. I'm telling a story.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, I'm sorry, you're right. This is about you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't care.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is about you. This is about you. Ktv.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. Sadly, the beginning of this is it called the fire. So let's get back into this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, we have to reset actually.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Here we go.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But also like we're trying to. All that energy is like election energy that now we have to like put aside and focus.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, it's only Monday. Anything could happen by fucking Thursday. Okay. Truly. But where we are for our purposes, it's the evening of December 15, 1997 in Philadelphia.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Luz Cuevas has just put her 10 day old newborn baby girl to bed. The baby is named Delimar. Luz has two other kids, boys who are 5 and 6 years old. And the family lives in a row house in the Feltonville neighborhood of North Philadelphia. The older kids are from a previous relationship. They all also live with Delamar's father, Pedro Vera, who is a mechanic. It's a happy, albeit tired time in the Cuevas Vera household with a brand new baby settling in and Christmas coming up. In the early evening, a relative of Pedro, the father, comes over to the house. She's a cousin by marriage, she had stayed overnight the evening before. And has now returned because she forgot her purse. Her name is Carolyn Correa. Some accounts say she's been over many times. While others say this overnight stay has been her very first visit. And also the first time she met Luz, the mother. So that's kind of fuzzy. Anyway, Caroline tells the family that she, too, has actually just given birth to a baby. Which is odd, because it's hard to just spend a night away when you have a newborn, right? But no one seems to dwell on this. And when she comes back the next day to get her purse, Pedro is out. So Caroline gets her purse, uses the bathroom upstairs, and then leaves. And then 10 minutes after that, Luz hears a loud bang coming from Delimar, the newborn baby's room upstairs. It's never been determined exactly what the bang is. Sometimes it's described as more of a pop. But there's some commotion from the baby's room. Luz races upstairs to check on her daughter, whips the door open to the bedroom. And to her complete horror, she sees that a small fire has started in the corner of the room. And the room is beginning to fill with smoke.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know. She also sees that the window is wide open. But when she gets to Delamar's crib, she sees that it's completely empty. Luz frantically looks around the room for her baby and doesn't see her anywhere. She runs downstairs, gets the rest of the family out of the house. And then returns to the baby's room, which is now ablaze again. Doesn't find her baby anywhere. And burns her face in the process of looking for her. She's so frantic.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But then she has to leave the house because the fire's gotten so out of hand. So once outside, Luz, of course, is screaming because she doesn't know where her baby is. And the house is on fire. And a neighbor tries to enter the house and climb the stairs. But the smoke and fire are too overpowering. He will always say that as he climbed up the stairs, he heard a baby crying. That's always going to be his statement. The fire department shows up quickly, and the blaze is put out within 15 minutes. And during this time, while the fire is being put out, Pedro, the father, comes back home, sees what's happening. And realizes his baby is his baby girl's unaccounted for. The whole upstairs portion of the house has been completely gutted. Luz tries many times to communicate to both the firefighters and the police. That she doesn't think that Delamar the baby, was actually in the room when the fire started. Luz speaks very little English. She's originally from Puerto Rico. Somehow, it seems no one bothers to find a translator or someone who can translate. None of the neighbors are able to help with that for some reason. And also, there's somehow no police or firefighters who speak Spanish who can communicate with them. And, I mean, it's 1997. I'm not trying to say anything's better.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Now, but, you know, we have Google Translate now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, fuck. So the firefighters say that the fire began because of a faulty extension cord that was being used with a space heater in Delamar's room. They say they don't see any proof of arson. And they also say they find no trace of the baby, no bone fragments, nothing, which is very unusual. Pathologists disagree on whether it would even be possible to find nothing. Some say that because Delamar was so small, she was completely consumed by the fire, which is such a horrible fucking thing to consider. Other experts say that this is not what they would expect to have happen in a fire that only burned for 14 minutes, you know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It reminds me of that one case of all the children in that house. Have we covered that one yet?

[Karen Kilgariff]

The Sauder family.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The Sauder family, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it's the whole idea of that. Like, how long does it actually take to incinerate alone?

[Georgia Hardstark]

That idea that you would find absolutely nothing. Right. Investigators sift through the charred remains of the bedroom, and at one point, they give the family what they claim are the remains of their baby daughter. But they're tested, and they turn out only to be part. Like, part of the mattress, some melted piece of fabric. And because Delamar's body is never found, the family is never issued a death certificate. They are told that they can get one through the courts, but the family A doesn't have a lot of money to do such a thing. And Luz does not speak much English, as I said. And, of course, Luz doesn't really believe her daughter has died. So Delamar is never legally declared dead, which is so heartbreaking that she just has to hold onto that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. It's also just so confusing. Like, all this series of events where it's like, all of a sudden.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A bunch of horrible things happening, and.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No one will listen and believe you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Luz tries repeatedly to get the police to investigate this as a missing person's case, but they say the baby died in the fire and they won't pursue the matter any further. A member of Luz's family think that she is simply overcome with grief. Her brother says, quote, we thought she was just traumatized by the fire. Neighbors and friends will report that Beluz and Pedro are constantly saying that their baby is alive. They totally believe it. The couple have another child together in 2002, but they ultimately split up. Cut to six years later. In January of 2004, Luz and her family attend a birthday party thrown by Pedro, the father's sister Evelyn, for one of her grandchildren. At the party, Luz sees a beautiful six year old little girl playing with the other children. And she fucking just knows it's her daughter. She's looking at a child that bears a striking resemblance to herself. And remember, this baby was 10 days old right when she last saw her. She has a dimple in her cheek that was there when she was 10 days old. And then she realizes that the little girl is there with none other than Carolyn, that overnight house guest from the night that Delamar disappeared.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Then, according to Luz, a family member takes it a step further. The other family member, who's not related to Luz, says, like, notices something's not right. And she's like, isn't Carolyn's daughter beautiful? She's not your baby. Like fucking outright says that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then the sentence, she's not your baby.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Isn't she pretty? She's not yours. Because I feel like she sees her losing her fucking mind.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, except for wouldn't you say something like, are you okay? Do you need to sit down? Like immediately going to that, That's a person you don't want as your wingman.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, for Luz, the mother of all mothers, enough is enough. In 1997, when Delamar had disappeared, there wasn't really that much discussion about what could be done with DNA. But by now it's all over the place. And Luz has seen a lot of crime shows. She beckons the little girl over, who she finds out is named Aliyah. Listen to fucking this. This is like next level. Like women mothers can do anything. She tells the little girl she's got gum in her hair, yanks a couple strands of her this 6 year old's hair out of her fucking head.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep, brilliant. I mean, in the moment like that, when you would be so shocked and reeling and trying to probably get people to listen to you or get her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fucking instincts, she goes right to it. Unbelievable. This time, because the police have turned her away multiple times and clearly are not taking her seriously about her daughter not being dead. This time, Luz goes to her local representative in the State legislature. It's a man named Angel Cruz. And angel is skeptical at first, but he connects Luz with the police and gets them to agree to the DNA test of that hair. And by the end of February, about a month after this encounter at the party, the results come back. That little girl is Delamar.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know. How? I hadn't heard of this until I started doing research on it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This. I've never heard of this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow. The way most people tell the story and the way it would make the most sense is that Luz has always suspected Carolyn of having something to do with her daughter's disappearance. And it sounds like other people in the family also had their suspicions and shared them with Luz and Pedro over the years. Some people report that Pedro actually saw Delamar in person at some family gatherings. It's all just a little, like, sketchy and vague and weird. Yeah. And manipulative, it seems. And I guess the new documentary may shed some light on this as well. So back to Carolyn. She had been raising Delamar as her own daughter only 15 miles away from the house that she was stolen from, right over the state line in Philadelphia suburb in New Jersey. So I wonder if Just a completely different state. They weren't even aware.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know, but they also didn't look into it, so it wouldn't have fucking mattered.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. The Philly police had already dismissed it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Exactly. And at first, it seems like Carolyn is completely convinced that she is Delamar's mother. She willingly gives her own DNA sample when the police are like, we need to compare the DNA, but it just ends up being further proof that she's not. Doesn't match. So many people believe that Carolyn was consumed by the desire to have a child, even though she physically couldn't. And it's all those things of, like, it's the same as, like, the rewind we just did of the woman who. Sarah Brady, who wanted to steal the unborn baby. This obsessive, like, need or want more like, for a baby, and telling people you're pregnant and then getting desperate.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, it truly, it seems like pretty serious mental illness and not, like, a thing that someone is just, like, choosing to do one day. There's an obsession quality to it. There's clearly some sad, deep need, trauma, whatever.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right, right. No excuses, but.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But also, oh, my God. And also, it's within your family. It's not like, you know, you've heard these stories every once in a while of, like, a kid goes missing and then is discovered 30 years later.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, God. Yeah. But also, Carolyn had had her tubes tied years earlier so she knew she couldn't have children. That almost, to me, shows more of a mental illness, too, where it's like, you actually cannot physically have a baby because of a decision you made and you're still obsessed with the idea of having a baby.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do we know it was her decision or was it, like, medical?

[Georgia Hardstark]

A great point. We don't know. So after the DNA tests, Carolyn turns herself in and is charged with kidnapping and arson because of the fire she set. This is actually not her first time being charged with arson. In 1996, Carolyn had been charged with setting fire to a medical office in order to hide the evidence that she had been stealing checks. I think she had worked there. And this case had actually been in the courts when she kidnapped Delamar, and she was waiting, you know, to be arraigned. And some speculate that she wanted to use the excuse of having a newborn daughter in order to get a more lenient sentence, which just turns the whole thing into. Instead of this, like, mentally ill woman who would do anything for a baby.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just transactional. Weird. Gross.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right? So it could be any of those things.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's very odd.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. She pleaded guilty in that case and was sentenced to five years probation. So this time, Carolyn pleads no contest to the kidnapping charges and the arson charges are dropped and she's sentenced from nine to 30 years in prison. She's since been released, and I don't know what the details are, and hopefully the documentary will shine some light on that. Carolyn's story shifts and changes over the years. Eventually, she'll pretty much settle on implicating both of Delamar's parents, saying they actually gave her the baby, which is just. Let's not even pretend.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's no evidence of this, of course, but Delamar's own mother, Luz, will eventually come to believe that her now ex, Pedro, was actually involved. And Luz does not appear in the new documentary, but Pedro does. And it doesn't seem like Delamar believes that at all. Herself, the adult. So that's just something that Carolyn threw out there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, it seems like just she's thrown out anything.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And Pedro's always vehemently denied that he had anything to do with the kidnapping, and he's never been charged by police. But it sounds like Carolyn has some mental health struggles, obviously, and has had them over the years. And in the days before she took Delamar, she had told multiple people, including her ex. Ex. Boyfriend, that she was expecting A baby, the ex boyfriend's baby. Carolyn admits that she actually was pregnant in 1997 and had a stillborn baby, but there's no evidence of this in her medical records. And this would have been after she had her tubes tied. So I don't know how possible that is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Seems impossible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Seems like it, yeah. So back to 2004, when the DNA test comes back, once the truth about Delamar comes out, a lot of child psychologists and experts weigh in, saying that Delamar's reunification with her real family, her birth family, should be a slow process. But on the other hand, Carolyn is now in jail. So, you know, the options are basically sending Delamar, who's six years old now, to a foster family or just sending her back to her birth family's house, you know, which seems like the better option. And so authorities opt to reunite her as quickly as possible, pretty much like immediately after the DNA results come back. So this poor little girl finds out everything, finds out everything at once, and then is sent to a bunch of strangers house, right. You know, who love her and have missed her. But she doesn't know anything about that, right? Delamar, for all she's been through, it does sound like a delightful child in these photos of her. She's just beaming. She's this lovely child. When Luz first walks into the room to meet her daughter, her older daughter for the first time, when both of them know the truth, Delamar hides under the table. And Luz was super worried. But when Luz walks in, she jumps out and yells, surprise. And like they hug and you know, it's all beautiful. Oh, so like she's just actually this like sweet child.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's just classic six year old.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Where she's like, oh, you don't understand what you hiding under the table is actually doing to your mother. And you're just trying to have fun with it. Cause also it's a six year old where a stranger, a woman walks into a room and the feeling of the emotion, right, must have been like overwhelming.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And Delamar says when she saw Luz at the party, she thought what a beautiful woman. Like she wasn't immediately drawn to her, but she did think, like she did notice her and like have some kind of moment. It's just so. Oh my God, I can't fucking imagine. And on the day that Delimar goes to her new home, to her birth family's home is March of 2004. And of course reporters are there, they're loving this fucking story. They ask little Delimore how she's feeling, and she tells them that she's happy. She smiles and poses from some pictures on her front stoop. And then she asks the reporters not to come to her house anymore. She's like, I'm done with this. Which is like, so, like, adults can't even fucking do that. Yeah, great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. That's funny.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In 2008, Lifetime makes a movie out of the story, and it's called Little Girl Lost. And Delamar and Luz actually attend the premiere together. There's this sweet picture of them. And so for the past 20 years, that's been kind of where the story has ended for anyone who was following it. Delamar goes home with her new family. Carolyn goes to prison. And of course, we hope that everyone lives happily ever after. But the truth, of course, is more complicated than that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Delamar spoke on the Record about her experience for the very first time just a few weeks ago for that article in the Guardian ahead of the release of the new documentary. She. She's 26 now, and she says, quote, for a really long time, I almost thought this new life was temporary. I had one photo of me with my old siblings on a bench, and I'd look at it and think, oh, I'm going to go back and see them, like, six years old. Like, it's just so confounding.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It would make no sense.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And you're old enough to kind of know what's going on. Yeah, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She says, quote, there was no support, no therapy, no resources. Nobody ever sat us down and said, said, are you okay? Do you need help? Of course not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, it was 2004. Hopefully that would be the case.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Now, it seems recent 2004, it's not. But in terms of therapy and talking about stuff like this and childhood trauma and shit, it's might as well be 1950.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally. All of the practical aspects of Delamar's abduction are probably just as mysterious to her as to everyone else, since she was an infant. But Delamar now sheds a lot of new light on her time with Carolyn. For one thing, Carolyn had warned her that a, quote, bad lady wanted to take her away and that this bad lady would claim that she was Delamar's real mother. But as I said, when Delamar saw Luz at the party, she said she instantly gravitated towards her. And actually, Carolyn was not around that much as the mother. She worked long hours at a pharmacy. So it was really extended family members who Delamar spent most of her time with. Delamar was entered into pageants and auditioned for commercials. She attended private school. But Carolyn also withheld food and was abusive and would hit Delamar with a belt. It sounds like when she escaped this family, it was, like, for the best for that child.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And she says that some things were an instant relief when she was reunited with her birth family. Luz's household was just more functional. Food was much more abundant. Delamar now had a sibling that was closer to her in age. The siblings that she had through Carolyn were much older. So she's really close with her brothers now from her birth family. But then once Delimar got into her teenage years, things got rocky. She had no support. She needed mental health support. She and her mother started butting heads, and Delimar left to go live with her father, Pedro. They had a relationship breakdown as well. And so when she was 15, Delamar wound up living in a group home. So young, she was then left vulnerable to several bad and predatory relationships. But then somehow, at the age of 20, she found the strength to change her entire life. She saved money, she removed herself from the abusive relationship she was in. She rented an apartment, and she became a healthy, functioning adult. I mean, this person is at age 20. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This person is just so admirable. It's incredible. And for someone with her circumstances who was given very few resources, it's very remarkable. She also repaired her relationship with both of her parents, her birth parents, Luz and Pedro, with the help of the man who is now her husband, a man named Isaiah. She's in this beautiful relationship now. Now she says, quote, isaiah drew me closer to them. We started hanging out with my family more. My dad lives in Puerto Rico, but he calls me and we'll chat for an hour. My mom and I talk multiple times a week. We spend holidays together. My brothers are my best friends, end quote. On Delamar's Instagram, she says she's working on writing a book about her experience. And there's a beautiful photo of her and her mother at her wedding. They're both beaming and they both have dimples. And that is the story of the disappearance and reappearance of Delamar Vera.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, God, it's like, as a true crime story, it's like, best case scenario for the fact that she was just kind of over the state line. Yeah. But, oh, my God, I know she.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fucked seeing her at the party, and. And the ruse of getting hair out of her head to me is just like, oh, shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Six years of being away from your own child.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ten days with that infant and you fucking knew immediately.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, that to me is like, oh, wow, that's okay. That's what motherhood does to you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like something I'm kind of sad. I'll never understand.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, you can read these stories.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I can. And my mom would do that for me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She'd pull hair right out of your head.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She fucking would.

[Karen Kilgariff]

For a DNA test or really any reason.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Really any reason.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Truly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, I mean, that is. You're right. It's like it's a very special, important relationship. And it's nice to think that, like, no matter the circumstances, your mom would know you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Your mom would recognize you in a million universes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, very sweet.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And yank your fucking head out of.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Your hands and be like, look, I gotta do it. It's for the best. It hurts me more than it hurts you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Isn't that wild?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was incredible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's just. I want to watch a documentary. I want to just. I mean, powerful.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Amazing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

As the holidays approach, there's just one thing to keep in mind.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Our friends and families.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No chairs. As in, do you have enough chairs for all of these people?

[Georgia Hardstark]

And that's where article comes in.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

Check out their Nosh dining chair. Designed with tapered legs, soft textured upholstery and solid wood construction, it effortlessly combines style and comfort.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When it comes to quality articles, designers hit the sweet spot between style, durability and price. They're all about thoughtful craftsmanship that not only looks great, but also stands the test of time. I love that you can kind of just pick anything off of the article website and it'll be stylish in your home. Like you don't have to search through to find a couple things that are kind of cool or kind of mid century or kind of your style. Everything is perfectly curated and so beautiful that you like. Even if you suck at designing, if you stick to article, you'll still have a beautiful house at the end. You know, that's so true.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.

[Georgia Hardstark]

To claim, visit article.commur and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's a R T I c l e.com murder to get $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. Goodbye. As the weather turns colder, we reach for our coziest sweaters. But don't forget about socks. They're sweaters for your feet.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. Keep your tootsies warm with Bombas socks all winter long.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Bombas makes the most comfortable socks in the history of feet.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If you're looking for the perfect holiday gift, Bombas has you covered. They make an awesome present for your work, friend, cousin, or that super picky sister. Because seriously, who could say no to cozy, comfy socks?

[Karen Kilgariff]

And you might want a few pairs for yourself. Because Bombas uses the coziest fabrics, like rich merino wool. Their socks are so cushy, it feels like you're walking on pillows.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Plus, you can enjoy that same softness with Bombas slippers. They've got this marshmallow, like memory foam that's wrapped in soft Sherpa.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And for every item you buy, Bombas will donate an item to someone who really needs it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

During cold months, something like a new pair of socks can make a big impact. And thanks to Bamba's loyalty, all over the world, they've donated over 140 million essential clothing items. I love the fact that we do ads for Bombas because I can't be barefoot. It's like one of my things in life. I will not let my naked feet touch the ground. And so Bombas actually makes these beautiful slippers and socks that makes that easy for me. But also, it looks and feels good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So ready to feel good and do good?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Head to bombas.com mfm and use code mfm for 20% off your first purchase.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's B O M B A S.com mfm and use code MFM at checkout. Goodbye. You know what? I was going to tell you I forgot at the top, because we were busy at the top. The whole story around the quote of us in the movie Venom, we got it wrong.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So it wasn't Stay out of the Forest. Which is kind of funny because it's like. I don't know if that was, like, gossip or just weird misinformation, but Aaron sent me. Erin Brown, marketing director, sent me the clip. And they're, like, sitting around at a campfire, and a guy walks up and sits down with them and starts talking, and Tom Hardy just starts talking to him. And then this, like, it seems like they're like a family. I'm not sure what. They haven't seen it yet. And then this very sulky kind of teenage Girl comes out and says he's like one of the killers from my favorite murder podcast. So the way she says it even is like she might not even been saying it. Either she's never heard of us.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My favorite murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or she's just saying that so they.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don'T have to pay to use our.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Title because we make so much money off those quotes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cause we need it more than they need us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But I watched that quote and I'm like, so did we just repeat a completely made up story?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think we got really excited about a made up story. Look, but it's close.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, at least we're in there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, well, I'm gonna take it. I don't care. I'm taking it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hell yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's a win. It's ours.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's a win.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My favorite murder was fun. Said in a.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In those three words in a row.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then the word podcast, like, that's us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Somebody knows what that means. I mean, that's all that matters.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or didn't. Which is why they didn't rewrite it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But. And that somebody is Tom Hardy, our number one thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's gotta be Tom Hardy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So definitely this is a left turn.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it's a weird left turn. And I kind of love it because it's a very parallel to true crime type of story. So it's light, but it's also more historical informational than anything else.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Love those things.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, Maren is my researcher. Does an amazing job for me every week. But she was on pregnancy leave for to me forever.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Her kid's like, what, five now?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, exactly. She just left and the research was taken over by our friend Jay Elias, who used to be my researcher. Works in the development department now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What would this company be without fucking Jay Elias?

[Karen Kilgariff]

For real?

[Georgia Hardstark]

He was like, what, our third employee?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, it was like you, me, Stephen, Jay and Danielle at the first staff meeting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank God he stuck with us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, for real. So this story is about my favorite place. Dark, grimy, merciless Victorian England.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, you love it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In the year 1854. So it takes place 15 years after the boy Edward Jones breaks into Buckingham palace, which. Listen to episode 382, under underpants, if you wanna hear that creepy, oily little story. Interesting one. Spring Heeled Jack is still being spotted around the country, but we're still a few decades away from Jack the Ripper's Whitechapel murders. Spring Heeled Jack is covered in episode 393. It's not a meeting. I did Jack the Ripper at that live show in London, but I don't know if we ever posted it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't either.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We must have used it at some point.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We used all the usable ones when we needed a fucking week off.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, okay. So anyway, it's 1854.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's a bad time for London. Dirty, polluted, crime ridden, severely overcrowded. And that's the nice part of town. Conditions in the city slums are horrifying. They're getting more dire by the day. London's Soho neighborhood is filled with jam packed tenement houses. So if you don't know about tenement houses and most major cities around the world have them and have had them, there's an amazing quote from 1849 quoting residents who lived in tenement houses in the London Times. And they say, quote, they live in muck and filth. We ain't got no privilege. No dustbins, no drains, no water supplies, and no drain or sewer in the whole place.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ew. Yeah, you just.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Firsthand account. Also, a visitor to the area in 1852 describes what they see and they say, quote, in a back alley opening onto Church street was a den which looked more like a cow house than a room for human beings. Little if any light came through and yet 17 human beings ate, drank and slept there. The floor was damp and below the level of the court, the gutters overflowed. When it rained, the rain gushed in.

[Georgia Hardstark]

At the apertures like, think of the worst Porta potty. General admission at a music festival. And like, you live in that though, right? That's your fucking home.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, with a little hay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Some hay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's really rough. Yeah, I mean, that's the whole reason Charles Dickens started writing the stories he wrote, because he would go and see that and be like, this has to change.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And people were finally, like, finally you're fucking telling it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, like it is. So it's no surprise that new cases of cholera begin to emerge here in August of 1854. So London is no stranger to this disease. Previous waves of it have claimed thousands of lives and stoked fears and riots among the citizens. If a viable treatment plan isn't in place soon, this new bout of cholera is poised to claim thousands more. But Victorian doctors have no idea how to stop it from spreading. Until one young physician's keen observations and willingness to think outside of the box. Turn that around and to this day change the way we approach pandemics and public health altogether. This is the story and it has nothing to do with Game of Thrones of Jon Snow and the Broad Street Pump.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, Right, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The main sources used for this story today are an article from the National Library of Medicine entitled John Snow Cholera, the Broad Street Waterborne Diseases, Then and Now. It's a picture book by Theodore H. Tolchinski, a video produced by Harvard University called John Snow and the 1854 Broad Street Cholera Outbreak. And the John Snow Archive and Research Companion, which is a website that has compiled various documents written by John Snow himself. And the rest of the sources are in our show. So bend the knee and let me tell you about Jon Snow. Sorry, it is really hard because I say Jon Snow so many times in the story, but it just is how it is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Don't go there in your brain.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Try not to stay there. So he's born on March 15, 1813 in York, England. He's the oldest of nine kids. And in his youth, he witnesses the harmful effects of pollution firsthand when his hometown river becomes contaminated with sewing and wreaks havoc on his neighbors health and homes. This drives his interest in medicine. And in 1827, when he's 14 years old, he becomes a medical apprentice. When he's 23, he starts medical school at the University of London. So kind of this horrible situation where he grows up drives his career. In 1837, he starts training to be a physician at the Westminster Hospital. He's so dedicated to his work that he swears off alcohol, gambling, meat and marriage.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Me too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, just kidding.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I got all of those things.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What are you doing with your life?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Something good?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well. Oh, yeah, that's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So he becomes a member of the Royal College of Surgeons of England on May 2, 1838, before finally graduating in December of 1844. So John Snow hears about how American surgeons use ether as an anesthetic during surgery. So in 1846, he tries his hand at applying it during his own surgeries and it's a great success. And he becomes the leading expert on ether's use in the UK and is appointed an anesthesiologist physician at St George's Hospital. So I don't think there was a ton of anesthesiologists before that because I.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don'T think there was a lot of anesthesia.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. They'd kind of crack you in the. And be like, bite down on this, drink this whiskey. We'll see you later. So Jon Snow starts incorporating the use of chloroform as an anesthetic as well, even using that on Queen Victoria during her deliveries of her youngest two children, Prince Leopold and Princess Beatrice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Damn. Knock her out. Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So he was good enough at his job to actually deal with the Queen.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then, in 1848, London's hit with its second big cholera outbreak. Cholera's a deadly disease. It causes excessive vomiting and diarrhea. By the way, if those topics, like, repel you or a problem for you, this story is going to be a problem for you, because that's pretty much all it is. So excessive vomiting and diarrhea, it results in severe dehydration. So people who get it can lose between 3 to 5 gallons of fluids a day.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Holy shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

For several days in a row. So at that time, that meant it was fatal in about half of all the cases.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There was no. No Pedialite. There was no Pedialyte. You couldn't go to a spa and get a. What's it called? Infusion and IV.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, you can get some B12 and just kind of bounce back. So in 1848, the cholera outbreak results in over 14,000 deaths in London alone. Across all of England and Wales, an estimated 53,000 people die from it in just one. That's more than twice the death toll from the 1832 cholera outbreak that claimed between four and 7,000 lives. So even though it's not his specialty, the 1848 outbreak drives John Snow to read up on the current theories surrounding cholera's transmission. He's skeptical of the prevailing theory of the time, a thing called the miasma theory.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Skeptical?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is that what I said? Shit, he's skeptical. The miasma theory states that decaying organic matter, including human waste, releases harmful particles into the air, and those particles are what infect humans. So it's not hard to understand why they came up with that theory at the time. Although London does have a sewage system, it doesn't go all the way across town. And so, of course, SoHo, which is the bad part of town, the slum, doesn't have a sewage system yet.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So to get rid of household waste, people would dump excrement right onto the city streets.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just like the bucket out the window kind of thing, right? Exactly, yeah. Can you imagine the smell back then?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Smell?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Everyone's always like, I want to go back in time and like, you know, be a fucking newsy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do not do an impression of me like that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Everyone named Karen is a news. No, it smelled so awful. I bet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I feel like there's something and I can't remember what it is. It's like a comedy that takes place in Victorian England, where someone just throws, like, shit out the window.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's gotta be a Monty Python sketch. I feel like I've seen it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Where it's just like, shit. Like, this is just how it was. They also threw it directly into the Thames River. They also had things called cesspools, which were underground tanks that had to be manually emptied.

[Georgia Hardstark]

By who? No, thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The cesspool man, who was good friends with the muffin man.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cesspool man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So a scholar named Alyssa Goodman points out in a video produced by Harvard University, she says, quote, the people who lived in tenement buildings, some of them had cesspools in their front courtyards. So, like, you're saying, like, living in a porta potty. It's kind of how it was. They would. Sorry, I added that into the middle of the quote. Were back into the quote. They would take their human waste and other waste and kind of throw it out the window into the cesspool or bring it down to the cesspool, and then it would drain wherever it drained.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't you think that maybe people were a little less uptight back then, too? Because, like. Yeah, like, if you see a squatty potty in someone's bathroom, you're like, oh, you know what I mean? Like, I don't wanna see that. But these people were carting their fucking waist around.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it wasn't long after people just had a chamber pot right under the bed. Get out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think they were a lot less squeamish about it back then, maybe.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's like, yeah, people go to the bathroom. That's just part of life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And you have to stare at it all day and smell it constantly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I like it better now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I do, too, because also, the deodorant issue.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So, anyway, okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All of that is to say that people, especially in the medical community, are realizing a lack of sanitation in Victorian London is a serious health issue. And that's what leads to this miasma theory, actually. It's a belief in a concept of, quote, foul air causing illnesses like cholera.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it was foul.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So John Snow decides he's gonna investigate further, and he starts to lean more toward a very controversial germ theory, which argues that diseases are spread not by foul air, but by invisible microorganism, often through contaminated water or contact. So at this time, the germ theory was, like, super nutso crazy, where he's like, they're tiny and they're sticking to everything.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, probably not hang him. I don't know. What did they do back then?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I think probably. Since as a child Snow observed how contaminated water could make people very sick, he works out a theory that a cholera germ has made its way into the tent, contaminating the water supply from much of South London, particularly Soho. Okay, so most doctors disagree with Snow. They consider his ideas to be on the fringe. Regardless, in 1850, his interest in the subject leads him to become a founding member of the London Epidemiological Society, a group of doctors dedicated to the study of widespread diseases and their path. So get in there. Anesthesiologist.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, I love it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Even his hobbies he's great at. So when yet another cholera outbreak wreaks havoc on Soho in August of 1854. So it's just happening all the time, Snow gets a chance to test this theory. So he has no idea at the time, but the first identifiable case for this outbreak is, tragically, a five month old baby girl who also lives in Soho, named Frances Lewis. In late August, Frances gets very sick. Four days later, she dies. The cause is listed as, quote, exhaustion after an attack of diarrhea. But then other members of the Lewis family start to get sick, followed by more people who live nearby. And then rumors start to circulate that another cholera outbreak is coming. And rumors circulate around the. That's in the area that people literally go get their water out of and then stand around and talk. And literally it's like the modern day water cooler. Back then it was the pump, and here for this area, it was the Broad street pump.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, so they were right. Because shortly after Francis Lewis passes away, death sweeps through Soho. In a span of just three days, 127 people die on Broad street alone. So locals are terrified. Of course, the fear of cholera runs so deep, residents just start leaving Soho in droves. But John Snow's work is just beginning. He hits the pavement, he starts tallying the deaths all around Soho. And before long, he has created a map marking where the deceased cholera victims lived. Snow realizes that these deaths are all clustered in a fairly condensed part of Soho, which kind of gives weight to the miasma theory. So he ends up writing, quote, within 250 yards of the spot where Cambridge street joins Broad street, there were upwards of 500 fatal attacks of cholera in 10 days.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Holy shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But very importantly, Snow finds several exceptions. Some of the cholera victims didn't live anywhere near Broad street, while some residents and workers in the area are entirely unaffected. So for one example, John Snow makes a note of a Broad street brewery where none of its 70 workers contract cholera during this outbreak. He points out that under the miasma theory, this wouldn't make sense because these workers would be existing in the foul air for their entire workday. Right then, when interviewing families of the cholera victims, Snow uncovers a crucial link. Prior to their deaths, the victims had all visited the Broad street water pump. So at that time, most Londoners rely on public water pumps, since indoor plumbing is rare. Soho's Broad street pump is located just outside the Lewis family home where Francis Lewis died, and it's the main water source for the whole neighborhood. John Snow writes, quote, I found that nearly all the deaths had taken place within a short distance of the pump. There were only 10 deaths in houses situated decidedly nearer to another street pump. In five of these cases, the families of the deceased persons informed me that they always sent to the pump in Broad street as they preferred the water to that of the pumps, which were nearer. In three other cases, the deceased were children who went to school near the pump in Broad Street. So John Snow now theorizes that the pump itself, not the air around it, is the true source of this latest cholera outbreak. And he figures that the pump's water was likely contaminated by germs from any number of sources. It could be sewers, drains, compromised cesspools. So this explains the situation with the brewery workers, because it turns out the brewery has its own in house water pump that they use to brew the beer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

So on top of that, workers get free beer while they're on the clock.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's why they always saying beer was better for you than water back then.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, people drank beer much more often. It was like safer. So between the in house water and the free beer, none of the workers ever drink from the Broad street pump while they're on the job. Now, Snow is careful to point out that while the Broad street pump is most likely the main source of this particular outbreak, he believes cholera can spread by other means of contact. Anytime someone comes into contact with the excrement of an infected patient, whether they know it or not, the germ can be transferred to a new person. Groundbreaking theory back then. So Snow presents his findings to the board of guardians of St James parish, which is a local elected board of officials to address neighborhood issues on September 7, 1854. But there's still some skepticism, although they do agree to remove the pump handle from the Broad street pump the very next day on September 8th. So within days, the cholera outbreak near Broad street in Soho completely ends. So it would seem like this would be enough proof for the medical establishment to bite into the germ theory. But many still have their doubts. Even Snow himself admits that the cholera slowdown may have begun before he even started his research. As he writes in his report Court, it's quote, impossible to tell whether the decline in the mortality rate is a direct consequence of the Broad street pump being shut off, or if it's due to, quote, the flight of the population, which commenced soon after the outbreak. So to prove his point, Snow conducts what he calls his grand experiment. Two major water companies in the City of London, the Southwark Vauxhall Company and the Lambeth Waterworks Company Company, both draw their water from their Thames, but they get it in different locations. So Southwark Vauxhall gets their water in a southern section of the river. Lambeth Waterworks gets their water further up the river, and that makes it less susceptible to contamination from the Seth Pools and the sewers of the city that are getting drained into the river.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Got it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So, using data collected by Parliament over a seven week period in 1854, Snow compares the rate of fatal cholera cases in homes that use water from Southwark Vauxhall to the ones from Lambeth. And he then compares it to the fatal cholera rates for the remainder of the City of London to establish a control group. And he finds that while the rest of London recorded 59 fatalities per 10,000 households from cholera, the homes using the water from Lamb Beth recorded just 37. And the homes using water from Southwark Vauxhall recorded 315.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Jesus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's still skeptics who criticize John Snow's data, but his argument for water contamination is strong enough to enact some actual change. More extensive sewer systems are built around the Thames, involving large underground pipes that separate sewage and water supplies.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Imagine that. Come on, separate the fucking get it going thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So this system lasts until the 19th century when it's replaced by more modern, updated Systems. Also in 1897, England starts using chlorine to purify the water supply. Don't just take it out of the river.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Anything could be in there. Anything could be in there. It's real gross. The changes in London's approach to sanitation and public health because of John Snow's work lead to a dramatic drop in mortality rates. Even still, because some government officials do not want to publicly admit that John Snow was right. That's how they are. They replaced the handle to the Broad street pump after the epidemic dissipates.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know, you've got to think of it more sinister too, because they maybe wanted that Population to die off a little bit, you know what I mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Or once seeing that they were, we're like, we don't have to rush.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. You don't need to worry about that. Let's. Yeah, yeah. And Jon Snow, he probably a wasn't thinking about, you know, class and class warfare and also probably had to fight a lot of higher ups to even bother putting money into saving, you know, poor people's lives.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, that's right. So, and if he. I mean, he sounds like he was from a family of nine kids.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's a good chance he wasn't rich growing up. So he saw, basically he became a doctor so he could start advocating for people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's kind of punk rock and I.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Love that he's pretty badass. And that's why they named the Game of Thrones character after him, I think. So now it's understood that the Broad street pump's water was in fact contaminated by a nearby cesspool. And the water was used to clean Baby Frances diapers and the soiled bedding from her sick family members was being dumped into their cesspool that was adjacent to the Broad street pump. And because the cesspool had decaying bricks, infected waste was able to seep into the pump's water supply, which then affected many of the people who drank from it. John Snow continues his work as a premier anesthesiologist for the rest of his life. He even writes a book on a subject entitled On Chloroform and other Anesthetics, which is published in 1850. Unfortunately, John Snow never lives to see his book's publication. He dies from a fatal stroke at just 45 years old. Wow. On June 16, 1858. Today, John Snow is considered the father of modern epidemiology and is best remembered for his pioneering studies around the 1854 cholera outbreak. A replica of the original Broad street pump stands at the original site today, although now that street is Broadwick street. And that commemorates John Snow's groundbreaking work. In more developed countries, where access to clean water is prioritized, cholera is nearly non existent. But in parts of Africa, India and the Middle east, cholera outbreaks still happen to this day. And it reinforces the fact that clean water is an essential human right that must be prioritized. That's the story of John Snow on the Broad Street.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow. I want to take a very clean shower after hearing about that one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I want to go to Victoria, London. Don't mind if I do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Isn't it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Isn't it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Isn't it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I want to, like, very much like this, where, you know, in the upcoming year or two, I'm going to bore you with Victorian England stories because I'm fascinated by it. But there was other things they had called ash piles, where they would just pile all their ashes in these big piles, and then people would go through the ash piles to see if they could find something that people didn't realize they burned and left in the ash piles. That's how fucking poor people were in Victorian England. That's fucking insane.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, it's dumpster diving, but in.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ashes, in ashes, which is like. And also not just Victorian England. In lots of places where poor people are just trying to figure out a way to do things, this is all we can do. Stick together, help each other. Care about your neighbor, care about the people in front of you. I think we've always said this, probably now more than ever.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And stay sexy and don't get murdered. Goodbye, Elvis. Do you want a cookie?

[Karen Kilgariff]

This has been an exactly right production.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our managing producer is Hannah Kyle Creighton.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This episode was mixed by Liana Squalace.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Our Researchers are Maren McClassian and Allie Elkin.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Email your hometowns to myfavoritemurdermail.com Follow the.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Show on Instagram and face Facebook at my favorite murder and Twitter at my favemurder. Goodbye.