455 - Time Math - My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

Summary4 min read

My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark Episode 455 - Time Math Release Date: November 21, 2024

Introduction

In Episode 455, titled "Time Math," hosts Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark delve into a compelling blend of true crime and historical intrigue. This episode seamlessly weaves together the tragic disappearance of Adam and Elena Emery with the notorious Cardiff Giant hoax, showcasing the duo's signature blend of meticulous research and engaging storytelling.

The Tragic Tale of Adam and Elena Emery

Incident Overview

The episode opens with the harrowing story of Adam (27) and Elena Emery (29), a young married couple celebrating their second wedding anniversary in Warwick, Rhode Island. On August 31, 1990, while dining at a seafood shack near the Rocky Point amusement park, their evening takes a dark turn.

The Collision and Pursuit

After being rear-ended by another car, Adam, known for his meticulous care of his 1985 Ford Thunderbird, leads a multi-mile chase in an attempt to confront the other driver. Georgia notes, “[00:19] A: It’s like you get rear-ended and you’re obsessed with your car,” highlighting Adam's intense reaction to the incident.

The Confrontation and Murder

The confrontation escalates when Adam pulls alongside a brown 1975 Ford Limited, believed to be responsible for the hit-and-run. Armed with a hunting knife at Elena's urging, Adam confronts Jason Bass, the driver of the LTD, resulting in Jason's fatal stabbing. Georgia emphasizes the questionable self-defense claim: “[25:00] A: It’s like the most overt. That is self defense.”

Aftermath and Disappearance

Despite a plea deal for involuntary manslaughter, Adam refuses, insisting on his self-defense stance. In November 1993, after being sentenced to 10 years, Adam and Elena mysteriously vanish. Their car is later found abandoned on the Claiborne Pell Newport Bridge, sparking widespread speculation about their fate. Karen reflects, “[32:26] A: So he made another giant, but this time with the tail.”

Unresolved Mystery

The discovery of Elena’s skull in Narragansett Bay further complicates the narrative, casting doubt on the supposed suicide and raising questions about Adam's true whereabouts. Georgia summarizes the lingering uncertainties: “[38:06] A: One of my favorite pairings of states, those two together.”

The Cardiff Giant Hoax: A Masterclass in Deception

Discovery and Public Frenzy

Shifting gears, Karen and Georgia explore the infamous Cardiff Giant, a colossal petrified man discovered in 1869 by farmer William Newell in Cardiff, New York. Upon its unearthing, the Giant captivated the public, drawing massive crowds eager to witness the "prehistoric" marvel. Karen describes the scene: “[54:58] A: This is the story of the so-called Cardiff Giant.”

George Hull’s Scheming

Behind the Cardiff Giant was George Hull, a seasoned con artist driven by anti-religious motives and a desire to ridicule societal beliefs. Hull orchestrated the hoax to prove a point against religious literalism, investing over three years and significant funds to create and promote the Giant. Georgia comments on Hull’s dubious ethics: “[64:07] B: I mean, sounds hot, right?”

P.T. Barnum’s Intervention

Enter P.T. Barnum, the master showman, who recognizes the Giant’s commercial potential. Barnum purchases a replica from Hull, leading to widespread IP infringement and legal battles. Karen humorously notes Barnum’s tactics: “[62:51] B: You know he's in P.T. Barnum's pocket, right?”

Public Reaction and Legacy

Despite initial skepticism, the Cardiff Giant remains a popular exhibit, now housed at the Farmers Museum in Cooperstown, New York. The hosts discuss the enduring fascination with such hoaxes, tying it back to human nature's susceptibility to deception and desire for mystery. Georgia muses, “[81:43] A: The Cardiff Giants story has all the elements that we know and love.”

Concluding Insights

Karen and Georgia wrap up the episode by reflecting on the interconnected themes of deception, human emotion, and the quest for truth. They draw parallels between historical hoaxes like the Cardiff Giant and modern-day mysteries, emphasizing the timeless allure of unresolved stories. Karen aptly summarizes, “[81:43] A: The Cardiff Giants story has all the elements that we know and love. A shocking discovery, a circus-like sense of wonder, a media frenzy, faith, butting heads with science, and shameless capitalism.”

Notable Quotes

Karen Kilgariff ([19:14]): “Never drink and drive.”
Georgia Hardstark ([25:00]): “It’s like the most overt. That is self defense.”
Karen Kilgariff ([32:26]): “So he made another giant, but this time with the tail.”
Georgia Hardstark ([64:07]): “I mean, sounds hot, right?”
Georgia Hardstark ([81:43]): “The Cardiff Giants story has all the elements that we know and love.”

Final Thoughts

Episode 455 of "My Favorite Murder" offers listeners a deep dive into the complexities of human behavior, both in tragic real-life events and calculated historical deceptions. Karen and Georgia's insightful analysis and engaging dialogue make "Time Math" a standout episode, inviting reflection on how motives, emotions, and societal influences shape our understanding of truth and justice.

Recommended For: Listeners interested in true crime, historical hoaxes, and the psychological underpinnings of human actions will find this episode both informative and captivating.

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Transcript594 lines

[00:02]
A
This is exactly right. Ah, yes, the magnificent Trolley Sour bright crawler. Also known as Trollicus brytolus.
[00:15]
B
The worm's captivating neon color makes it.
[00:18]
A
An easy gummy prey Trolley.
[00:21]
B
It's a surprisingly sour, invitingly chewy, staggeringly snackable species unlike anything else found on this planet. Eat me. Delicious.
[00:31]
A
Visit trolley.com to shop now.
[00:34]
B
Trolley Eat me. Looking for a pickup truck to get just about anything done? Look no further. The Chevy Silverado EV isn't just the most powerful Silverado ever with next level towing capability and technology. It also offers game changing versatility with the available multiflex midgate and tailgate. Which means Silverado EV helps you carry large, bulky and oddly shaped items up to nearly 11ft in length. Chevrolet together. Let's drive. Visit Chevrolet.com to learn more. Hello and welcome to my favorite murder.
[01:25]
A
That's Georgia Heartstrings.
[01:26]
B
That is Karen Kilgareth.
[01:27]
A
And we're being flirty and feisty and fun.
[01:30]
B
It's the AM Podcast. Hey, we wake up with you gotta go to work.
[01:35]
A
So do we right now. Let's do this thing.
[01:39]
B
What's going on? How are you?
[01:41]
A
I'm good, thank you. I had one of those bedrouting weekends where I just really laid around. Like that was my job.
[01:49]
B
Nothing's better than that.
[01:50]
A
It's very. I felt very lucky to have two days to just post up.
[01:55]
B
Isn't that the best?
[01:56]
A
Yeah.
[01:56]
B
Cause otherwise, like if you have one thing to do that weekend, that's all you think about is like leading up to that one thing.
[02:02]
A
Yes. And then so you start rationalizing why you're not doing it, why you're not going to do it.
[02:07]
B
Oh my God.
[02:07]
A
It's like you just need to go down and ship something. Like the post office. Just do it. It's not a big deal.
[02:14]
B
You've been like thinking about it for so much longer than it would have taken you to actually do it.
[02:19]
A
Can I tell you that that's this, that's me with nails now. Because I've never cared about. I mean, it's not like I didn't care about nails, but my sister has like hand model nails, very deep nail beds, always perfect long.
[02:33]
B
Whatever. Shh. Whatever.
[02:35]
A
I have my dad's hands. So it truly looks sad and like I'm trying to do something with what I got, which is what I'm doing.
[02:42]
B
Right.
[02:43]
A
So most of the time I just kind of don't pay attention.
[02:45]
B
Yeah.
[02:46]
A
But then recently I'm like, yeah, I don't want to be on camera and Go like this and just have like a broken nail with a little dirt under it.
[02:53]
B
Totally. My raggedy cuticles.
[02:55]
A
Yeah. I get up like, yeah, but you cannot get me to get down there.
[03:00]
B
Does he have gel on?
[03:02]
A
It's gel, but I just. It's this laziness of. I'll do it later. I'll do it later.
[03:05]
B
That's the problem. Because you can't take that shit off by yourself, so you can't do anything about it. So it just looks worse and worse. It's gel's fault.
[03:12]
A
It's true. And it's also when it's growing out. So, like, the space between where it's just like, ma'am, you simply must, by city ordinance, go in there.
[03:22]
B
We're videoing this, which is why we care. Because I feel like from far away, people can't see. Like on video now. People are like, oh, her nails are polished. They don't know that. Like, just looks like your nail's getting shorter and smaller.
[03:34]
A
Yeah, that's. I don't think it looks. It's gonna start to look like it's a two tone polish idea.
[03:39]
B
Right?
[03:39]
A
Like, it's just creative.
[03:40]
B
It's so nude.
[03:41]
A
It is truly nude. Well, my last one was red and then I was like, let's go fall. Let's go like something neutral. Cause. What are you doing? Don't draw attention to these weird man hands where it looks like it's a little sausagey, but it's also a. Like the hands of a person who's had it.
[04:03]
B
I wonder if you can exercise your fingers. Is there a finger exercise to, like, strength? That's so stupid.
[04:08]
A
Yeah, that's when you know you've gone right over the edge.
[04:12]
B
She ripped in your fingers.
[04:13]
A
It's like, I can't get basic shit done, but I sure can do 25 of these, man.
[04:18]
B
She's shredded in just her fingers. Everything else is falling apart, but she's shredded.
[04:24]
A
She's cut exactly where? It doesn't matter.
[04:26]
B
Do you know she competes in fingers competitions? The posing and all this.
[04:31]
A
Please don't go close on my hands.
[04:33]
B
I always see her in Venice beach, like pumping iron, but just with her fingers.
[04:37]
A
Just fingers.
[04:40]
B
All right.
[04:41]
A
Is that it? No, you have nothing.
[04:43]
B
I was just out at a town for so long in Mexico City. It was fucking incredible.
[04:47]
A
Would you have give us a top three highlights?
[04:49]
B
Churro Lucha.
[04:51]
A
Sorry, you're thinking of the Contra Costa County Fair.
[04:56]
B
No, a churro in Mexico City.
[04:59]
A
Probably the best one you'd ever had.
[05:00]
B
It's the best one I've ever had. I dipped it in chocolate, then lucha libre. We went to the fucking arena Mexico, and saw lucha libre, the wrestling match. It was unbelievable. It was so much fun.
[05:10]
A
Incredible. The original.
[05:11]
B
Yeah. And then just all the food that we ate was like. That's separate from the coch. But everything was, like, beautiful. It was so beautiful there.
[05:19]
A
It's the place to be these days.
[05:20]
B
Yeah.
[05:21]
A
Cool. I'm glad you got to get away.
[05:24]
B
Me too. Oh, we were talking about Breath of Fire.
[05:29]
A
I mean, there's some great. I feel like we're back to the OG days of HBO documentaries. There's some amazing stuff out there. So we won't make sure.
[05:39]
B
No spoilers. No.
[05:40]
A
I think it's the final episode. Oh.
[05:42]
B
Cause it's all these three. Yes. We're one episode behind, so we just will say.
[05:46]
A
It's very interesting to me that these simultaneous. And I actually don't know if the other one is also on, but the Anatomy of Lies about the Grey's Anatomy. Right.
[05:56]
B
Oh, I haven't watched that one yet either. Yeah.
[05:57]
A
Oh. So maybe when you're done with that one.
[06:01]
B
Okay.
[06:01]
A
You can come back and we'll have a kind of a lit comp conversation. Because they're similar and nothing alike. And it is crazy, right?
[06:09]
B
About someone pulling the wool over everyone's eyes.
[06:14]
A
Yes.
[06:14]
B
And pretending to be someone they're not. Kind of a thing.
[06:16]
A
Yeah. And kind of like, how much do we lie? How much do I lie? And how much do I feel like I need to lie?
[06:23]
B
But how much do you think you're actually lying when you are lying? Like, are you deceiving yourself, too?
[06:28]
A
Good one.
[06:29]
B
If you believe it, is it a lie?
[06:31]
A
And is that kind of rationalization, whether it's automatic or totally conscious, is that why. And how people get into cults or start cults or lead cults or. It's all that kind of stuff of, like, human beings and their brains are goddamn fascinating.
[06:48]
B
The way they'll justify anything.
[06:50]
A
And that they do.
[06:52]
B
Because to think that you're a bad person. No one thinks they're a bad person, Right?
[06:56]
A
Of course not. But people question it. But it's kind of more like, well, if I am, then I'm gonna work on it this way. And then working on it makes you a worse person, but you can't admit it by the time you're done with it.
[07:08]
B
Oh, my God. I mean, it goes around and around.
[07:11]
A
Let's pretend we're smart and have a podcast.
[07:15]
B
We've been doing it for almost nine years. Almost nine Years. Oh, my gosh.
[07:19]
A
Almost nine. Coming up on. Yeah, Our nine year anniversary.
[07:23]
B
What? Sixth. Fifth. Sixth grade.
[07:25]
A
Yeah. Emotionally. Yes. What was the question?
[07:30]
B
I don't know. What grade would be in if we were.
[07:34]
A
Yeah. Oh, if we were nine years old, a child.
[07:36]
B
Yeah.
[07:37]
A
Third grade, I think.
[07:38]
B
Third. Is that it? Okay, I have to ask a little bit, but would we be in the gifted and talented program?
[07:42]
A
Oh, we'd be running that thing. We'd be calling teachers by their first name.
[07:48]
B
Yeah. Teacher. Like, why don't you find. Isn't my favorite murder coming up here and teach this lesson on geography?
[07:53]
A
We'd be like, diane, we'd love to. Because what's the thing about geography? It's not about the details.
[07:59]
B
No, no, no, no, no.
[08:00]
A
It's about the colors of the map.
[08:01]
B
Geography is not science.
[08:04]
A
Yes, it is. It's a personal love of ours.
[08:06]
B
Exactly.
[08:07]
A
It's not a science.
[08:09]
B
Speaking of personal loves of ours. Oh, we have a podcast network.
[08:12]
A
She's done it again.
[08:13]
B
Hey.
[08:14]
A
Oh, I have.
[08:16]
B
Sorry, what?
[08:16]
A
One piece of mail.
[08:17]
B
Okay.
[08:18]
A
Oh, this is a real email that we got. Hello. From the team at BBC Studios, UK TV and Brit.
[08:26]
B
Oh, no.
[08:27]
A
Dear Karen and Georgia. Although we suspect this will mostly appeal to Karen, I am a day one listener. I've never missed an episode yet of my favorite murder. I also happen to be the chief communications and marketing officer for BBC Studios, which also owns BritBox and UK TV.
[08:43]
B
Holy shit.
[08:44]
A
And then they say, you can only imagine my total delight when I was on my morning run in cold, dark London. True crime is the perfect companion on a morning run. It keeps your pace up when all of a sudden your conversation turned to UK tv. On the latest episode, Shoulders Back. Oh, that's the latest episode of our show. I was like, I've never heard of shoulders back. I have to see Shoulders back instantly. I shared the episode with my team, carrietk TV and Alana at Britbox. This is just a note to say we love and appreciate just how much Karen enjoys the shows we make. And if you're ever in the uk, let us. And we'd be delighted to see if we can get you on set to see some of your favorite British procedurals or period dramas being made. Just give us a shout. Best wishes, Susannah.
[09:29]
B
I mean, that. That is for you. She's kissing it. I'm so excited. I'm so excited. I'm sneezing.
[09:39]
A
Excuse me.
[09:39]
B
That was so loud. Huh?
[09:40]
A
No, the inhale. I thought you were gonna, like, say a big thing. I think you're like, oh, My God, no.
[09:49]
B
Oh, it's itchy. Okay.
[09:51]
A
Like bro church.
[09:53]
B
That's really exciting for you.
[09:55]
A
I'm so.
[09:55]
B
And me. But also for you.
[09:56]
A
Susanna, we really appreciate you writing in. I'm. I'm beside myself with being seen and perceived in the world by the things I'm perceiving.
[10:06]
B
I'm happy for you.
[10:07]
A
Thank you.
[10:07]
B
Speaking of that, how come not a single person today has mentioned my shirt? Can we get a good.
[10:15]
A
Like I thought it said.
[10:16]
B
Anyone in the fucking sound booth? Nobody Look.
[10:19]
A
I thought it said Pookie, and I didn't even look.
[10:22]
B
It says, that's my dog. Vince made this for me. It's like a three dog moon. What is it? Three wolf moon shirt, but with pictures of Cookie. This is the second version he's made me, and it says cookie, that's my dog. That's get it made somewhere on the Internet. And he's made me one of Mimi, too. I'll wear it next week.
[10:40]
A
Nice.
[10:41]
B
But I just feel like I wore this to bed and I wore it to this recording so that it would be on camera, because.
[10:47]
A
Genius.
[10:47]
B
So I just really wanted to acknowledge it.
[10:49]
A
I'm so sorry that I didn't. I was like, I don't know Pookie, and I don't have to get involved with Pookie. That was my thinking.
[10:56]
B
It's some Internet meme, and I refuse to ask about it.
[10:58]
A
But also, that's how much I saw Pookie. I saw Cookie at the beginning, right before COVID Oh, right, right. And then I've only seen Cookie since on social media. So, like, I didn't immediately recognize her the way I wish I.
[11:12]
B
Well, she's, like, green and purple in these, so it's a little weird, but.
[11:15]
A
Right. And I thought her name was Pookie, and it was a different dog.
[11:21]
B
You know, I love my Pookie merch.
[11:23]
A
Got to get it out there.
[11:26]
B
Okay, now that we've settled all the.
[11:28]
A
Important business, it's time for those, erm, highlights.
[11:31]
B
That's right. We have a podcast network. It's called Exactly Right Media. Here are some highlights.
[11:36]
A
This week on the Bananas podcast, comedian Chloe Radcliffe joins the Banana Boys to discuss weird news from around the world.
[11:43]
B
And this week, Cara and Liza from that's messed up and SVU podcast cover SVU episode guilt from 2002. And they also have a really fun new holiday ornament in the merch store. If you wanna check that out, it's@exactlyrightstore.com there's tons of great merch from all.
[11:59]
A
Our podcasts on Wicked Words, Kate Winkler Dawson talks to author Ellen J. Green about her book Murder in the Neighborhood. The True story of Americ. First recorded mass shooting about a 1949 shooting in New Jersey.
[12:12]
B
Wow. And also we have an important Merch Corner update. So back in 2023 on episode 370, I covered the story of Pearl Hart, aka the Bandit Queen. And we were making a shirt featuring her iconic quote that I'll read to you in a second. And all the money from that sale we donated to Planned Parenthood and that was to the tune of $30,000 because of you guys.
[12:36]
A
Yeah. And you guys bought those shirts you donated and it was great. So with all the things that are happening in the world these days, and a bunch of people actually suggested this on social media, we decided we are going to bring back the Pearl Hart T shirt. So head to exactly right store and place your order by November 26th. Proceeds will be donated to the ACLU and their effort to combat all of the threats to our civil rights that are now standing somewhere in a murky future that we are not sure about.
[13:08]
B
So let's just see how much we can raised for that. And for reference, the Pearl Hart quote is from 1899 and it's quote, I shall never submit to be tried under the law that neither I nor my sex had a voice in making. End quote.
[13:23]
A
Now that women are second class citizens in America and we have an incoming president who is very interested in not just keeping it that way, but expounding upon that, we all need to get ourselves together. We need to collect our thoughts and our plans and we need to resist and never submit.
[13:44]
B
Yes, let's.
[13:45]
A
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[17:04]
B
Okay, I'm first.
[17:05]
A
You're first.
[17:07]
B
And I got a. I got a mystery. A weird mystery I hadn't heard of until this story was submitted to me by our team. And it's so odd. I can't believe I hadn't heard of it. You might have heard of it from an Unsolved Mysteries episode, because it is, like, got, like, everything an Unsolved Mystery episode needs. So it takes place in New England, and it's kicked off by this awful tragedy and then ends in the disappearance of Adam Emery. You know it, I think.
[17:38]
A
Well, is it the newest Unsolved Mysteries or the old?
[17:42]
B
I don't know. I think it's the old.
[17:43]
A
Cause I looked at, man, those new ones, I feel like I've watched every episode three times.
[17:48]
B
So the main sources for the story are an article in the Washington Post and an episode of Unsolved Mysteries. And the rest of the sources are in the show notes. All right, so here we are, August 31, 1990. We're in Warwick, Rhode island, and it's a seaside town. It's got a cute little amusement park called Rocky Point. And right by the amusement park, there's a little seafood shack. And that's where young married couple Adam and Elena Emery have gotten some dinner with another married couple, a friend of theirs, that evening, because they're celebrating Adam and Elena's second wedding anniversary. Adam is 27 and Elena is 29. Your face is already a little scared.
[18:28]
A
It's so sad. Any of these stories that we tell are truly tragic because anytime you kind of drill down, it's like you want to say, oh, it's their second anniversary. They just started a life together. This is the saddest version of this story. And it's like, yes, except for. Then the next story you get where it's like, they've been together for 75 years now. That's the saddest version.
[18:50]
B
It's like, well, it is, but for not the reason you think it is. Okay, so it's gonna end in tragedy no matter what. The couples are eating in their car. Adam and Alina are up front, and the other two are in the backseat, and they're just eating and drinking beer. And it's a typical summer evening in New England.
[19:09]
A
I hope to God that the keys are out of the ignition, because that's the difference between A and not. A dui.
[19:15]
B
And, you know, I feel like the beer part is an important note in this, guys. Fucking. Don't drink and drive, please.
[19:22]
A
Never drink and drive. But if you're chilling and the driver is totally sober and everybody else has a beer, you do not get that beer out of that car before you put the keys in the ignition. Yeah, I don't know why I know that.
[19:34]
B
It could be because you used to drink a lot.
[19:36]
A
Yeah, drinking a lot. But then also that thing of, like, don't just sit there, like, get all your shit ready just in case something happens.
[19:44]
B
Okay, well, so they're sitting there eating, and suddenly everyone in the car jerks forward when another car hits them accidentally in the back driver's side bumper. They get bonked into. No one's hurt, although the car is definitely dented. Adam's car is a 1985 Ford Thunderbird, and he's known for keeping it in impeccable condition. Like, he really loves his car. So then it gets fucking smashed into.
[20:08]
A
Yeah.
[20:09]
B
No one gets a great look at the car that's just hit them from behind because it's gunning it out of the parking lot already and turning the corner on the building and is just out of sight immediately. So it's a hit and run. The whole group tells Adam, like, fucking follow the car. Like, let's get its license plate. I'm sure they were all amped up. You know, when a whole group is yelling at you to do something, it's like you get amped. Adam pulls out and turns out of the parking lot in the direction where that other car had gone. And as they round the corner around the same building, they find the car. They pull up behind a brown 1975 Ford Limited. Elena, in the front, insists that that's the car that hit them, and they begin to follow it. Oh, no. So the people in the LTD start driving faster because they realize they're being followed, and so Adam does too. And they're kind of in this chase for, like, two miles. Finally, the ltd, the car in the front, pulls over. Or Adam cuts them off from the front. We don't know. Accounts differ, but either way, they stop. So then Adam starts to get out of his car, but before he does, Elena tells him to bring the hunting knife he keeps in the car just in case. Cause he's like, in his mind, he's like, I just got rear ended. They took off. I'm gonna go confront them. She's like, who knows who this could be? Bringing the knife, which just isn't Smart. Don't. Don't get involved. Write down the license plate and leave.
[21:32]
A
I mean, it's so. We're so LA people, where it's like, oh, if somebody hits you from behind, they leave. Like, God bless and goodbye.
[21:41]
B
Have good insurance.
[21:42]
A
Have good insurance. And, like, the risk of, like, rage, road rage.
[21:48]
B
It happened to me.
[21:49]
A
It's crazy.
[21:50]
B
When Vince first moved here from, you know, Michigan, and we were in the car together and he flipped someone off and I was like, do not ever fucking do that again in la. For real. This is shooting on the freeway. The road rage, which I'm really. I always read those news stories. I'm terrified of it. And something similar happened to me. It's like, don't get involved, don't get involved.
[22:12]
A
It's very bad traffic out there.
[22:14]
B
People are already pissed and everyone's angry.
[22:17]
A
Everyone's pissed all day long. And then you make a mistake and it's like, first of all, let people merge. And if somebody makes a mistake, look to yourself and remember all the mistakes you've ever made and move it along. Yeah, this was a panicked moment of, this is how you need to behave in a car. As if anyone needs to know any of this shit. Don't do drugs.
[22:42]
B
Sometimes do drugs. Okay. Adam approaches the driver's side window of the other car and the driver quickly throws the car into reverse and tries to speed away.
[22:52]
A
Because he has a knife, right?
[22:53]
B
Yeah, But Adam is hanging onto the door and it sounds like Adam winds up lying on the hood of the car with his arm and maybe his head through the driver's side wind. Like he's. Cause I think the window's open. And so he's like, holding on as the car backs up. And so he like, kind of maybe gets thrown onto the hood with his head and body in the window. Does that make sense?
[23:14]
A
I mean, a little bit. But this, we. I mean, we've already said it. Sir, step away.
[23:19]
B
Yeah, so somehow while all this is happening, all this commotion, Adam gets the hunting knife out and stabs the driver in the heart. All this happens in a residential area. The car comes to a stop, like on the lawn of someone's house. People quickly come out of their houses to help because they heard the commotion. But the driver, who has been stabbed, is in bad shape and is becoming unresponsive.
[23:45]
A
I mean, that's okay.
[23:48]
B
It's horrifying. An off duty police officer is among the neighbors in the area, so police arrive quickly on the scene. When they get there, the driver is still alive but bleeding badly. And Adam is drinking a glass of water. I think he's like sitting on a porch, you know, drinking a glass of water that someone must have brought him. And he tells the officers, quote, I did it. End quote. The driver is a young man named Jason bass. He is 20 years old. He had spent the summer working at a food booth at that little amusement park. And he dreams of opening his own restaurant someday. He spent the summer dating a girl who also works at the amusement park. And he, he always lets her little brother tag along with them on their dates. In fact, it's this kid, the younger brother, a 15 year old named John Gorman, who's a passenger in the car that night when Jason gets stabbed.
[24:39]
A
Horrible.
[24:40]
B
This horrible 15 year old kid who's like, what the fuck? John is physically unharmed. Jason is brought to the hospital, but he dies before he even gets there. So Adam is arrested. He claims he was acting in self defense. The minute you get out of that car or you chase the other car, that's not self defense anymore, right?
[25:00]
A
You're chasing a car and then you're. Yeah. I mean none of it feels like severe, just what we talked about, severe rationalization.
[25:08]
B
But John Gorman, the passenger from Jason's car, says that Adam had been screaming that he was going to kill Jason from the moment he got out of his own car. So when he got out with that knife, he was already screaming, I'm gonna kill you.
[25:21]
A
I mean that's what it all seems to be. Where it's like, I don't know if I believe that. His girlfriend said, you should take this for protection. That doesn't make sense. Like chasing a car and the car understanding that you are following. It doesn't make sense. Where it's like, I bet I would guess just separate from all this, that he cut them off and made them pull over.
[25:44]
B
Yeah, right. Well, here's the worst part about this. I mean, there's so many worst parts. It's pretty certain that Jason Bass wasn't the person who rear ended them at all. That they had the wrong car to begin with. Not that it would ever have been okay if he had rear ended him, but it was. They are suddenly being chased by someone. They have no idea why they stop. This guy gets out and of course, you know, the guy comes at him with a knife saying when they kill him, of course he like puts the car in reverse and tries to drive. He's like trying to leave the scene because he's afraid for his life. That's not self defense.
[26:21]
A
It's like the Most overt. That is self defense. It's like, get me out of here.
[26:25]
B
His is self def. Not his. Not the claim of self defense.
[26:29]
A
Right, Right. Yeah. Yeah.
[26:31]
B
So, yeah, the paint samples don't match. It's not the car.
[26:36]
A
Horrifying. Yeah.
[26:37]
B
I don't think the car is ever identified. So this whole tragedy takes place in a pretty small community. It gets very ugly for the families on both sides. When Jason's mother goes to the store to buy a suit for Jason to be buried in, she explains the situation to the shopkeeper. And it turns out that Elena's sister is in the store at the same time buying school uniforms for her children. And she starts screaming that Jason's mother isn't telling the truth and that Adam killed Jason in self defense. Like they're all. They're attacking the victim and the victim's family in this.
[27:12]
A
Yes.
[27:12]
B
It's pretty ugly.
[27:14]
A
Yes. Right. And obviously in a way where. Well, not obviously, because this is just a theory, but it's like if you're on the defense like that you go back and tell your family not, oh, my God, I can't believe we made this horrible mistake. Or I can't believe. Whatever. It's. It's the. His fault.
[27:33]
B
Totally.
[27:33]
A
It's his fault. It's his fault.
[27:34]
B
There's no critical thinking in this. And that's a big problem. You can support someone and without having to defend them blindly. You know what I mean?
[27:45]
A
Yes.
[27:45]
B
He'll be there for you, but you did this thing and it's not okay.
[27:49]
A
And now someone's son is dead.
[27:50]
B
Right.
[27:51]
A
That's why the mom is in the store right now. Right. Like, wow.
[27:55]
B
Horrifying. It takes three years for the case to move through the courts. Adam is offered a plea deal with a charge of involuntary manslaughter and a sentence of about five years in prison. But he is so hell bent on saying that it was self defense that he refuses this very lenient deal. He actively killed someone?
[28:14]
A
Yes.
[28:15]
B
Stabbed someone. It wasn't accidental. And he says no to this deal. And he's adamant that it was in self defense. He says that he had leaned into Jason's car and tried to turn the ignition off. And that while Jason was zigzagging and reversing for a distance of about a thousand feet, Adam couldn't get free of the car and stabbed Jason to try to get him to stop instead of letting go of the car. So In November of 1993, Adam, who's now 30, is found guilty of second degree murder. He'll carry a sentence of 10 years. Years to life. And when the verdict is announced, Elena, who's now 32, is. She's sitting right behind Adam in the courtroom. She closes her eyes and whispers, quote, it's my fault. I'm going to kill someone. There's hell to be paid. End quote. If this sentence structure seems a little weird, it's. This will be important in a minute. But Elena was actually born in Italy, and so she has a bit of an accent.
[29:06]
A
Okay.
[29:07]
B
She and her family moved to the States when she was a little girl, but Italian is her first language. Then she leans in and whispers something directly to Adam that no one can hear. But in the aftermath, lip readers are hired to watch the tape and decipher the words. How much you fucking love lip reading videos.
[29:23]
A
That's one of my favorite things on TikTok. They do it a lot with, like, professional sports. Yeah. Or like, if Taylor Swift is in the red crowd somewhere on Red Cross.
[29:32]
B
Yeah.
[29:32]
A
Hilarious.
[29:33]
B
It makes me never talk to Vince in public anymore because I'm like, what if there are people? Not that I'm saying anything important, but, like, what if someone is out there and they can read lips and I'm just talking on someone?
[29:42]
A
Right. Well, I mean, it's a good. These days when everything is recorded anyway. Zip it until you're in the vault at all times. That's right. Got to.
[29:51]
B
Or at least cover your mouth like the sports guy.
[29:53]
A
She's talking into a microphone.
[29:54]
B
For year nine, to be kept in the vault forever.
[29:58]
A
If only.
[29:59]
B
No, this will go on the Smithsonian, probably.
[30:01]
A
Right?
[30:01]
B
Do they have a vault? Do they have a secret vault right.
[30:03]
A
Next to lawn chair Larry's big old chair?
[30:07]
B
Okay, back to the horrible stuff.
[30:08]
A
Okay. Okay. Because this is also. Sorry, just for a reset. Just trying to think of, like, it's a small town. The politics, the families, the passion. Right. Nobody can be wrong in that situation. Cause it's like, oh, no, we're on this guy's side, and this is.
[30:23]
B
Yeah, this is how we feel periods. I mean, it's similar to the election.
[30:26]
A
It's how people get through hard, horrible stuff. It's just like, well, let's just go fully black and white with this. And there's only one way as this. Our guy is completely innocent.
[30:35]
B
He's a true victim, and here are the facts to prove it. And it's like, both sides have those. They can't all be facts if both sides have differing facts, you know?
[30:44]
A
Right.
[30:44]
B
It's like, just who do you want to believe? So when the lip readers decipher her words. She says, quote, we will do what we originally said. You promised me we should have done this before. End quote. Here's the thing. This is so weird to me. Pending his sentencing so he's found guilty, and they're like, we're going to have your sentencing here. In the meantime, get on out of here. Go on home. Oh, why are people released before sentencing after their trial? On a murder charge, no less? Like, I get it on, like, a shoplifting charge. Yeah.
[31:20]
A
It just depends on the person and the situation. But I think clearly there are people in that town, like, or in that courtroom who didn't think it was. That he would have done it if it wasn't that exact situation. Maybe.
[31:32]
B
Right. But they didn't think he was a threat for whatever reason. But because of this, the story turns and becomes an enduring mystery. So that very same evening, when he's let out after getting the guilty verdict, police are called to the Claiborne Pell Newport Bridge, which crosses the Narragansett Bay. And it's this long, beautiful bridge. I mean, you know, we're talking Golden Gate. Looking long and beautiful.
[31:59]
A
Is it golden?
[32:00]
B
It's. Don't. I don't think so.
[32:02]
A
Okay. Don't ask me.
[32:04]
B
Right. No question. Car is idling in the right lane with the engine on and nobody inside it. And this is a big, long bridge. There shouldn't be a car empty and idling. At first, police think the car has simply been abandoned. But when they look inside the car, they find clothes, cash, cut up credit cards, and a driver's license. And it's Adam's driver's license.
[32:25]
A
Oh.
[32:26]
B
The clothes are the outfits that Adam and Elena wore in court that day. And it would appear that Adam and Elena have both died by suicide jumping off the bridge into the bay. That's what the scene looks like, right?
[32:40]
A
Sure.
[32:40]
B
But immediately you're probably like, that looks a little too good that their outfits are back there. You know what I mean?
[32:45]
A
Like, yes. Like, it's. Here's all the pieces you would need to believe that we just died by suicide.
[32:51]
B
But also, like, why cut up your credit cards if you're about to jump off a bridge?
[32:56]
A
Yeah. It's a bit thorough for if two pe. Especially two people who are just like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[33:04]
B
Well, very quickly, of course, police start to wonder whether Adam and Elena faked their own deaths and are trying to go on the lam together. Investigators retrace Adam and Elena's steps between the verdict being read and the car being discovered. And so what had happened is, after the verdict, Adam and Elena had gone to a sporting goods store. They bought matching black sweatsuits, cool wrist and ankle weights.
[33:28]
A
Awesome.
[33:28]
B
Which points to them jumping. Oh, you know what I mean? I don't know. Not the sweatsuits, but the weights that.
[33:35]
A
They would weigh themselves down first.
[33:37]
B
God. And also weights that would go around their waist. So that does point to them jumping. I don't know why they'd have to change clothes. Like, that's a little suspicious because I don't, you know, like, they can't be identified by the clothes that they had on.
[33:52]
A
But if they're trying to seem like they both died by suicide, then that is what. But why wouldn't you wanna be identified?
[33:59]
B
Right. Right. Yeah. That's a very odd piece. Then they go to Burger King and have dinner together. And both of these details wind up fueling doubts that the two really took their own lives.
[34:10]
A
Yeah. Your last meal is gonna be Burger King.
[34:12]
B
That's what they said too. But it's like maybe they hadn't decided just yet. And they're like, let's go eat something. And then they just decided to do it.
[34:19]
A
True. I mean, yeah, anything's possible.
[34:20]
B
And I'm not gonna lie. Like, Carl's junior Wouldn't be ruled out as my last meal.
[34:25]
A
Look, fast food on the whole, chemically Mexican pizza.
[34:30]
B
I mean, goodbye. That's not the worst due to.
[34:34]
A
Yeah, but, yeah, it's kind of pointing toward planning, but not planning for a finale.
[34:41]
B
Right.
[34:42]
A
In my opinion.
[34:42]
B
Right.
[34:43]
A
Cause that's, you know, I just feel.
[34:45]
B
Like the nostalgia of that can't be overlooked. You know what I mean? Like Burger King, whatever. It was like, that's your comfort food.
[34:53]
A
Oh, that's a really good point. Point. Yeah.
[34:56]
B
Yeah. And you're probably not in the mindset to go to fucking Chez Panisse or whatever.
[35:01]
A
Yeah.
[35:01]
B
You're not a nice sit down dinner.
[35:02]
A
You're not gonna fit well. And also, would you be allowed to. Like, is that. Doesn't he. Does he just have to go straight home or.
[35:08]
B
I don't know, is he on house rest? I have no idea.
[35:10]
A
Yeah.
[35:11]
B
So the other thing is that Adam argued with the clerk at the sporting goods store over the cost of the sweatsuits. And people are like, why would he do this if he knew he's about to take his own life? But I mean, old habits die hard, you know, People had seen Adam and Elena outside of their car on the bridge at about five o'clock that evening. But witnesses say they got back in the car and drove away. No one had seen them get out of the car or jump prior to the discovery of the empty car later that night. So they got there, they got out, they get back in and drive away. And at some point, no one saw them, but they drive back, and who knows what happened then. Yeah, and maybe it was like, there's too many witnesses. We need to, like, leave and wait until there's less cars on the road. Or maybe they're like, I can't do this. I can't do it. Let's go back.
[35:57]
A
Let's go to Burger King. Let's go right. Talk this over.
[36:00]
B
Right. So the immediate suspicion, of course, is that Adam and Elena are trying to make their way to Italy, where Elena's family is from, which is why that fact that she's from Italy comes into play. However, here's a twist. Despite all of these circumstances, evidence emerges over the summer of 1994. So about eight months later, fishermen discover a skull in the Narragansett Bay, directly under the Claiborne Pell Newport Bridge. This skull is sadly determined to be an indisputable match for Elena based off of dental records of unique and extensive dental work on her upper jaw. And I'm immediately, like, test it again. It's the 90s, you know, but it's, like, unique and extensive dental work. It's kind of hard to refute, but there's, like, always a small chance. But also, would it have been a skull by then?
[36:53]
A
But also, I think, like, that turn of. I was so against them, right? And, like, no way they got away. And then it's like, oh, no, she died. And it just, like, makes me feel so differently.
[37:05]
B
I know. It's, like, so sad.
[37:08]
A
Yeah, well, and also, just what was she talking about in the courtroom? Like, what was she referencing? And what was that all about?
[37:14]
B
Yeah, probably, like, you can't go to jail. You can't go. Like, you can't go to prison. Yeah.
[37:19]
A
Yeah.
[37:19]
B
We need to end this, I guess. Who knows? Like, for some people, the idea of prison or being apart for that long is just. I can't even fathom, like, that mindset. But for them, it was, like, not an option. Maybe. Then around the same time, leg bones are also discovered in the bay. And these are first thought to be atoms, possibly. But later they're determined by an anthropologist to have belonged to a woman. But it's unclear if they're belonging to Elena. So obviously, the simplest explanation would be that both Adam and Elena really did die by suicide in November of 93. But after the apparent suicide and before the discovery of Elena's skull, numerous sightings of only Adam are reported in Connecticut, which is one state over from Rhode island, as you well know. You're a geographist.
[38:07]
A
One of my favorite pairings of states, those two together. Ugh. Laverne and Shirley.
[38:13]
B
When these reports are made, Adam is not yet considered a fugitive, so they can't track those because he's only supposed to be on bail. So once he misses his sentencing hearing, then they're able to start running down these leads. During this period, the sightings follow geographical patterns. First in Connecticut, then Florida, then France, then in Italy. Oh, that's fucking witness sightings. I mean, come on.
[38:38]
A
Yeah.
[38:38]
B
And he's, you know, he's kind of hard to miss. He's like a handsome Ken and Barbie type of guy. So it's not like I don't think he'd blend very well because he is handsome.
[38:48]
A
Right.
[38:48]
B
And so he would stand out a little bit.
[38:50]
A
Yeah.
[38:50]
B
You know, so by the time he misses his sentencing hearing, though, the sightings have mostly died off. Those sightings are still reported from time to time. I know. And the FBI has considered Adam a fugitive as recently as 2017. They tweeted @ the time asking for tips, like they're still working on it and reminding the public to pay attention.
[39:10]
A
Wow.
[39:11]
B
And he still remains on their most wanted list. And that is the tragic story of the death of Jason Bass and the mysterious death of Elena Emery and the disappearance of Adam Emery. God dang.
[39:24]
A
Yes. I mean, tell me, tell me. I just am thinking about when I was growing up, my cousins who lived next door, who aren't my real cousins, but they were like, my older brother and sisters. The girls had boyfriends that were kind of like, dirt baggy, sketchy.
[39:40]
B
Yeah.
[39:41]
A
And that's kind of what I'm thinking of where, like, when things like this play out, a thing like this plays out. The story of we're just sitting here innocently eating our sandwiches and drinking some beer, and then we're rear ended. And so then we go, like, every way that this story is laid out, like, trying to be explained doesn't make sense in terms of you get rear ended and you're obsessed with your car.
[40:07]
B
Yeah.
[40:08]
A
You're immediately out of your mind, furious. And. And this happens when, like, somebody else is the victim, where you're then, like, well, then they didn't do anything wrong, but it's like, did he do something wrong in the beginning? Which is like, smash a car and Freak out and run away. Was there a reason he freaked out? Like, the guy that got out of the car was so scary and like enraged that he was like, I gotta get out of here. Oh, but none of that matters because it wasn't him.
[40:34]
B
It wasn't him.
[40:36]
A
But trying to put it together, like the logic of putting that together, which is like, clearly there seems to have been a removal of like, why would a person run? Why would a person get out of there? Because the way it ended was so scary that it clearly started at least slightly scary.
[40:54]
B
Yeah, yeah.
[40:55]
A
His favorite thing in the world, his car was smashed into.
[40:59]
B
Right.
[41:00]
A
And then the car drove away.
[41:01]
B
Right. And then also, like deflecting the blame the whole time that Elena said, that's the car and she's sure of it. Elena said, grab the knife. Like, is that even true? You know, it's like, right? It's. He's not at fault in these instances because she pointed those things out.
[41:18]
A
Right.
[41:18]
B
It's a good way to blame her for it.
[41:20]
A
Yeah. Or she's taking the fall. Cause he's a creep.
[41:24]
B
And then at the very end, he.
[41:26]
A
Kills her and then gets away.
[41:28]
B
Or she thinks they're both going to do it and he doesn't.
[41:31]
A
Maybe, Maybe. Yeah. Like, he's like, I was gonna run this whole time and I knew if I ran with you we'd get caught.
[41:38]
B
Yeah.
[41:39]
A
I mean, whatever. It's. I mean. So let's make up 55 scenarios because we won't know.
[41:45]
B
Oh, my God.
[41:46]
A
Geez. Yeah, good one.
[41:49]
B
Thank you.
[41:50]
A
Yeah, that was a good one. Because we don't get an answer, right?
[41:53]
B
No, I'm sorry. Unless you just want to, like, go with the obvious, which is like, they both did it. They both jumped off the bridge together.
[42:01]
A
But the idea that there have been sightings of a person that aside from being good looking, it's just like in Italy.
[42:08]
B
That's strange.
[42:09]
A
But who knows?
[42:11]
B
Who the fuck knows? You can't trust that shit.
[42:13]
A
Yeah, that's true. I would just like one answer for that one. By the time we're.
[42:18]
B
I think her finding her skull is pretty. Like if. Yeah, I think if that hadn't happened, then we would have been like, yeah, they clearly ran.
[42:26]
A
Right.
[42:27]
B
But that's so odd. Like, makes me want to be like, test it again, you know? Cause I don't want it to be her in a way also.
[42:34]
A
Well, I just don't understand. It feels like if this is if worst case scenario and this guy's the worst person all the way through, then that would that would all track of like, he's got an anger problem. He attacked this kid. He was just. And maybe they're on drugs. Whatever. The thing is that made him like, hang on to the car and not get off like that should he been drinking.
[42:57]
B
Who knows how much he was drinking water when the cops got there. Which to me is like, that's what you do when you get pulled over and you've been drinking.
[43:04]
A
Yeah.
[43:04]
B
You know, you're like chugging water.
[43:06]
A
There's a nice neighbor that sits you down on your. On your porch.
[43:08]
B
Right.
[43:09]
A
I don't know, it just feels like any. It's all of those things are just like.
[43:13]
B
Yeah.
[43:13]
A
It doesn't happen to the average person that they end up on the hood of someone's car trying to reach in, maybe with a knife for. Yeah, for their own protection, but probably not. It doesn't.
[43:25]
B
If the knife hadn't been there, everyone would have. And. Okay. And bringing a knife to confront someone in a car is kind of premeditation, right?
[43:34]
A
I think so, yeah. Bringing a knife to a car party.
[43:37]
B
Yeah.
[43:38]
A
Why? Yeah, because also ultimately, what was it, Max? $2,000 of damage.
[43:45]
B
Yeah. Right.
[43:45]
A
What are you trying to do? What kind of lesson would you be teaching?
[43:49]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
[43:52]
A
This podcast is brought to you in part by Squarespace. Are you looking to share something special? This holiday season? With Squarespace, you can create a professional website to showcase your work, sell products, or connect with your community. They make creating and managing a website easy with Squarespace's new Design Intelligence. With 20 years of design expertise and AI, you can build a stunning website that fits your unique needs. With Squarespace, selling content has never been easier. By putting online courses, videos and memberships behind a paywall, you can earn revenue with one time fees or subscriptions. And managing those payments is a breeze. In just a few clicks, you'll be able to accept payments with options like Klarna, Apple Pay, afterpay, and more. Get discovered faster with Squarespace's built in SEO tools. With meta descriptions and auto generated sitemaps, you'll rank higher in search results globally. Head to squarespace.com for a free trial and when you're ready to Launch, go to squarespace.com murder to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com murder. Goodbye. The holidays mean spending a lot of time with family. So if you're already thinking up responses to fights that haven't even started yet, you might need therapy, my friend. Talkspace, the leading virtual therapy provider, makes getting the help you need easy, accessible and affordable. Talkspace has licensed therapists in over 40 specialties like anxiety, depression and relationship issues. Plus, these services are covered by many insurance plans and employers. Most insured members have a zero dollar co and when you sign up for Talkspace, you'll match with a therapist or psychologist, typically within 48 hours. Talkspace provides personalized treatment for individuals, couples, the LGBTQIA community, veterans and teens. Once you meet your therapy goals, or if you want to cancel for any reason, Talkspace will provide you with a prorated refund for unused time. We talk a lot about therapy on this podcast, but I think it's because or at least I'll speak for myself. I know I I really wish I'd started it sooner and I really wish I had not been so scared because it wasn't as scary as it ended up being when I started. And I think these days talkspace is such a perfect solution for the fear and the story you build up in your mind about how hard it might be to start therapy. It's really not that big of a deal. And if you start with Talkspace, you can immediately match with a provider that wants to talk about what you want to talk about, and it can be through text online. You get to call the shots, it's not intimidating and you get to start feeling better. And as a listener of this podcast, you'll get $80 off your first month with Talkspace when you go to talkspace.com mfm and enter promo code SPACE80. To match with the licensed therapist today, go to talkspace.com mFM and enter promo code SPACE80. You'll get 80 off your first month and show support for our show. That's talkspace.com mFM and Enter promo code SPACE80. Goodbye. It's that time of year again. Nights are longer and for those of us who struggle to fall asleep, that means there's more time for us to lie down in the dark. That's why I'm excited to talk about Beam's Dream Powder, a science backed healthy hot cocoa for sleep. Other sleep aids can cause next day grogginess, but Dream contains a powerful all natural blend of Reishi, Magnesium, L Theanine, Apigenin and Melatonin to help you fall asleep, stay asleep, sleep and wake up refreshed. Check out Beam's limited time holiday flavors like White Peppermint, Mocha and Gingerbread. Get them before they sell out. Despite all the stress and busyness this time of year, Beam can help you get eight hours of uninterrupted sleep. Get back on track with just a few sips. There's truly nothing worse than not being able to sleep. I've been going through it myself lately. A lot of people I know have. It's totally understandable. And the idea that there is an option like Beam Dream Powder. It's a cup of hot cocoa with all these effective ingredients. And then I got to sleep again. What a true dream. And right now, BEME is offering our listeners early access to their Black Friday sale. You've been hearing us rave about Dream, and this is your chance to try it for the lowest cost it's ever been sold at. Get up to 50% off when you visit shopbeam.com murder and use code murder. Head over to shopbeam.com murder and use Code murder and get yours before they sell out. That's shopbeam.com murder and use code murder for up to 50% off. Goodbye. Okay. All right, let's all put our hunting knives down for a second, please, and take a little bit of a left turn.
[48:28]
B
Yes.
[48:29]
A
To my story, which when I opened it this weekend, I was like, yeah, that's right. So it starts on October 16th, 1869.
[48:39]
B
Oh, dear.
[48:40]
A
Yeah. In the quiet town of Cardiff in New York State, a local farmer named William Newell is digging a well on his property. And he's being helped out by a few hired hands. And they dig about three feet down into the dirt when one of their shovels strikes something solid. William tells the men it's probably a rock, and he goes into his house to get a pickax. And while he's gone, the rest of the crew keeps digging. And as they shovel more and more dirt away, they uncover something truly bizarre.
[49:13]
B
Can I guess?
[49:14]
A
Yes.
[49:14]
B
Is it a giant?
[49:15]
A
Yes.
[49:16]
B
I love the story.
[49:17]
A
Yeah. The object in the dirt is huge, and it appears to have a massive foot.
[49:25]
B
Can you imagine?
[49:26]
A
I mean. So they keep digging, and before long, they've unearthed what looks to be the body of a very large man. A very large petrified man. The workers estimate that this man is about 10ft tall, and he's lying on his back like a corpse. There's no flesh, no hair, but he does have fingernails. An Adam's apple muscle definition. And quick listener warning. Very prominent male genitalia.
[49:54]
B
Oh, dear.
[49:56]
A
Mom. And although his expression is peaceful, his body is contorted. One hand is crossing towards his very prominent male genitalia. The other is behind his back. His legs are turned to one side. So he's kind of like, seems to be in a state of unrest. When William Newell eventually returns with his pickaxe. He sees what's been uncovered and he's completely dumbfounded. Word spreads throughout Cardiff and within hours, a crowd has gathered at the Newell farm to take a look at the.
[50:30]
B
I mean, those good old fashioned crowds.
[50:32]
A
That gather and this would be like Little House on the Prairie costumed crowd.
[50:38]
B
Where they'd bring a picnic.
[50:39]
A
Yeah. They'd be like, ma, bring a hunk.
[50:42]
B
Of cheese and some bread and sarsaparilla. It's like the most entertaining thing that's happened to them in years that will.
[50:48]
A
Ever happen in the entire area. They dug something up.
[50:52]
B
Yeah.
[50:53]
A
The end.
[50:53]
B
It's like, here's what your town's gonna be known for for the rest of its life.
[50:55]
A
It could have been two huge rocks and they would have been like, this is amazing.
[51:00]
B
Selling cotton candy, chewing cud and stuff. They call it fairy floss back then, didn't they?
[51:05]
A
Oh, did they?
[51:06]
B
I think that's British. I don't know.
[51:08]
A
This is the story of the so called Cardiff Giant. A discovery emblematic of the power and pitfalls of American ingenuity, opportunism and capitalism.
[51:18]
B
Hey, all your favorite things.
[51:21]
A
Those are my top three soap hunk. The sources used in today's story are a 2005 article from Archeology magazine by a writer named Mark Rose entitled When Giants Roam the Earth. A book by Scott Tribble. The title of the book gives it away, so we'll just keep it moving. Okay. But thank you to Scott Tribble. And then a 2014 article in the Press and Sun Bulletin newspaper by Gerald R. Smith and George Baszler. And again, again, the title of that article gives it away. The rest of the sources can be found in our show notes. So we're back on William Newell's farm. More and more people are showing up to gawk at the buried giant. This is what I love.
[52:04]
B
Picture old timey Karen there in her.
[52:06]
A
Beautiful calico hand sewn dress and bonnet.
[52:11]
B
It's made out of flower sacks, flour sacks.
[52:14]
A
Cause I'm very, very poor. I don't know why, but I have a certain je ne sais quoi that's keeping me going.
[52:20]
B
Where did she get that diamond necklace?
[52:22]
A
Oh my God. She's a stealer.
[52:24]
B
Do you guys know her? She's a stealer. Like you're on the football team.
[52:29]
A
So these crowds are getting larger by the hour. But William doesn't like it at all. He claims to be worried that all of this interest is gonna disrupt the farm. It's gonna make it hard for him to work and provide for his family. And he also tells this crowd of friends and neighbors he has to rebury the giant and just to stop telling people about it because we're just going to bury it back.
[52:53]
B
He's essentially like a classic, get off my lawn.
[52:55]
A
Yeah, right, the original. Yeah. But of course that only adds to the intrigue. So then more people show up to the Newell farm, this time from outside of town. Oh, wow.
[53:08]
B
Outside of town.
[53:09]
A
And then reporters show up.
[53:11]
B
Okay.
[53:12]
A
So suddenly the Cardiff Giant is being talked about in newspapers across the region and crowds of onlookers continue to swell in response. William basically says, if you can't beat him, join them. So instead of shooing people away, he decides to throw a big tent over the uncovered giant still lying in the ground where it was first uncovered. And then he starts charging $0.25 admission to go see.
[53:36]
B
That's a lot, right?
[53:38]
A
Yes.
[53:39]
B
Do you have 10 today's money?
[53:40]
A
Uh huh. Well, a couple days after that he bumps it up to 50 cents.
[53:45]
B
Shit.
[53:46]
A
Which is $20 in today's money. It really is. Especially for people in 1869.
[53:52]
B
Yeah, you didn't have that kind of.
[53:54]
A
Not unless you own the. I was going to say the old mill, the corner store, but yeah, it would have to be the old mill, I think. So people happily pay. In the first week alone, 2,500 people show up to see the card of Giant. And they say that there was something undeniably powerful about the scene at the Newell farm. An academic who co founded Cornell University, Andrew Drew White, describes the scene this way. He says, quote, the roads were crowded with buggies, carriages and even omnibuses from the city and with lumber wagons from the farms, all laden with passengers lying in its grave, with the subdued light from the roof of the tent falling upon it, and with the limbs contorted as if in a death struggle, it produced a most weird effect. An air of great solemnity pervaded the place. Visitors hardly spoke above a whisper.
[54:50]
B
Cause you know what's so crazy about that? You wouldn't have seen a picture of it first and then gone to see it.
[54:54]
A
Right, yes, correct.
[54:55]
B
Like maybe a drawing in the newspaper, if that.
[54:58]
A
But like you would have only ever heard of this description.
[55:02]
B
Yeah.
[55:02]
A
In just in tales and stories.
[55:04]
B
Right.
[55:05]
A
So you're going to see a thing that no one's really ever seen before. Yeah, well, I mean. Yeah, yeah. So. God, I would have gone. I would have. Of course you would have sold my youngest child. So as the word of Cardiff Giant came continues to spread, People remain mystified as to what this thing actually might be. Theories, of course, begin to swirl. Some believe it's an ancient giant who once lived in the area. I guess lived and breathed and then turned to stone. He was buried for so long, it's kind of weird, but at the time petrified objects and giants were kind of zeitgeisty. Okay, so there had been several fossil discoveries in both the 1700s and the 1800s that today we understand belong to extinct spec. But at the time they were just kind of getting uncovered and nobody knew what they were.
[55:57]
B
How fun.
[55:58]
A
Also in the altar of religious 19th century, when much of the US population is not educated in science, let alone the burgeoning field of paleontology, these fossils are sometimes connected to biblical figures. So that includes the giant Goliath of David and Goliath fame. So it'd be easy to believe that a would be found because if they're finding these other creatures and then someone's going, well, this is the. Whatever, that's science, that science friend. One person telling you something. So there's a decent amount of people who think this oversized human from a prehistoric race has been petrified in the earth. But the same amount of skeptics see the Cardiff Giant feel it is not human. They think it's a prehistoric statue, and others think it's a more recent creation of a hoaxer. So one of the many people in that latter camp is the writer Andrew White, who I just quoted. He immediately dismisses the Cardiff Giant as a statue and not even a well made one. To White, the giant doesn't share the obvious qualities of other prehistoric finds. At the same time, the giant Giant himself quote, betrays the qualities of a modern performance of a low order.
[57:19]
B
Ouch. That's some fucking old timey shade right there.
[57:23]
A
Andrew White was like, he knew.
[57:26]
B
And another thing, and he takes his.
[57:28]
A
One monocle, his monocle off and he's the Monopoly man. It's him, Andrew White, that went on to found Monopoly, the board game. So essentially, yeah, White is saying it's an artist who isn't particularly talented. It is not what you think it is.
[57:43]
B
He's like in a rap battle with. And he just fucking won.
[57:46]
A
He just slammed that monocle down. So as more skeptics insist that the Cardiff Giant is just a bunch of carved stone, audiences still come out in droves to marvel at it. And it's hugely popular and of course becomes very a lucrative attraction in less than a week after the discovery, William Newell sells the majority stake in the Giant as a concept, Two thirds owners ownership to a small group of New York businessmen for $30,000, which in today's money, 250. $700,000.
[58:21]
B
Holy that man. Yeah, that's. You know what's so cool about that? I wonder if he also was, like, perpetuated the rumor that it's a hoax. Because I bet more people came when someone was like, it's a hoax. I bet. And people are like, I need to go see for myself and decide and.
[58:38]
A
Pay my own good $20 that I absolutely don't have right to figure this out.
[58:43]
B
You're not eating this month.
[58:44]
A
Yeah. I'll decide if this is a hoax or not.
[58:46]
B
Mommy needs to fucking.
[58:48]
A
Yes, you can gnaw on your. On your bed frame. We'll get through this.
[58:54]
B
It's made of corn cobs. I mean, it's fucking edible.
[58:57]
A
Since everything's made of corn cobs, I think you're gonna be okay.
[59:02]
B
Terrible.
[59:03]
A
Okay, so, of course, with the Cardiff Giants, overnight fame comes overnight drama. Because down in New York City, New York City, New York City, the situation is getting heard about. And guess who gets wind of it. P.T. barnum. Hey. He immediately wants in. He would later say, quote, one thing was certain. It was a great attraction visited by hundreds of people daily. And I thought that so great a curiosity should be exhibited under proper management in New York City. I therefore approached the proprietors and said, I will give you $50,000 for your Cardiff Gian. As it is. $50,000 back then is how much in today's money?
[59:46]
B
850.
[59:47]
A
That's $1.2 million.
[59:49]
B
Damn it, I'm bad at math.
[59:52]
A
Okay, so it's time math.
[59:53]
B
I can buy you a lot of corn cobs. Time math is really fucking hard.
[59:57]
A
We've never gotten good at it on this show. But the Cardiff Giant brings in $12,000 in its first few displays on the farm. That's worth over a quarter of a million dollars today. So William Newell and his investors turn P.T. barnum down.
[60:14]
B
Damn.
[60:14]
A
Because they are making bank.
[60:16]
B
Nobody turns P.T. barnum down.
[60:18]
A
You're exactly right. Because P.T. barnum then decides he's going to send a sculptor up to the Newhall Farm. And that sculptor will bring a little ball of wax. And then right there on site, the sculptor makes a miniature replica of the Giant. And using that replica, Barnum then commissions a full size copy of the Cardiff Giant, using measurements that have been widely reported in newspapers. And in no time, Barnum has his own perfect dupe. His Cardiff Giant. And he puts it on display in New York City.
[60:50]
B
You gotta trademark that shit.
[60:52]
A
It is the first case of IP infringement. I mean, it's such a sad true fact where it's like, we got our thing and now we're the king of the world.
[61:02]
B
The.
[61:02]
A
But it weighs 500 tons and it's set in the ground. And therefore you're just ripe for the pick in of anyone to come by a little ball of wax. You just make a miniature. So the men who own the original card of Giant, of course, are furious at P.T. barnum. That anger is only magnified by the fact that the copycat pulls in more visitors than theirs, of course, because it's New York City, especially because the real Giant has actually been excavated from William Newell's farm, and they were actively touring New York State. So it could have been them in a lot of ways. Historians Gerald R. Smith and George Basler report, quote, the imitation Giant grew sizable crowds. While the original Giant flopped. For example, only 50 people showed up on the second day of the original Giants tour. The lack of success led to one of its owners, to coin the amalgamation, there's a sucker born every minute. As a commentary on the crowds of people who lined up to see Barnum's fake Giant. What?
[62:10]
B
I love the origins of sayings. That is crazy.
[62:14]
A
And in a final irony, the phrase is now attributed to Barnum. Although he didn't say it, you could say he stole both the Giant and the phrase damn sad.
[62:25]
B
It's funny. It's ironic, though, that he said that about Barnum. Okay, foreshadowing.
[62:30]
A
Yes. Okay, so the owners of the original Cardiff Giant attempt to get an injunction to stop Barnum from displaying his replica. But the skeptical judge writes their concerns off with a sarcastic comment saying, quote, bring your Giant here, and if he swears to his own genuineness as a bona fide petrification, you shall have the injunction you ask for.
[62:52]
B
You know he's in fucking P.T. barnum's pocket, right?
[62:55]
A
Well, how about we listen to the rest of the story and then you see, maybe this judge knows what he's talking about. Okay, so with that judge refusing to protect the original, the floodgates open, and the sculptor who made Barnum's Giant quickly churns out several more which are advertised in shows across the country. The Philadelphia Enquirer even weighs in writing, quote, it is rather rich that we should be victimized by such a fraud upon a fraud. So just like these things won't stop coming, then, in early 1870, any remaining mystery around the Cardiff Giants authenticity totally Fades, because that's when a man comes forward claiming he's the brains behind the whole thing. That man's name is George Hull. So George Hull is the kind of guy who stands out in a crowd. So in an era when the average man is around 5 foot 7, George is 6 foot 3. At a time when Americans are overwhelmingly Christian. George is an atheist and a very vocal atheist. And according to Gerald R. Smith and George Baszler, he, quote, resembles the stereotypical villain in a melodrama with slicked back hair, a mustache, a piercing stare, and black clothes from his shoes to his plug hat.
[64:08]
B
I mean, sounds hot, right?
[64:09]
A
I mean, what's up? Yeah. So very fitting for a man described as a shady opportunist. The same newspaper notes that, quote, criminal may be too strong a word for George Hull, but schemer certainly applies, end quote. While writer Scott Tribble reports that he, quote, had no qualms about breaking partnerships or laws to get what he wanted. So George Hull, classic bad guy.
[64:35]
B
Yeah, Villain.
[64:36]
A
Okay. He started out in his con artistry as a horse trader. That was a well known, ethically questionable job involving downplaying a horse's flaws and putting all responsibility on the buyers to ask the right questions ahead of a sale.
[64:53]
B
Classic.
[64:54]
A
Yeah. Basically, Marin wrote, think used card dealers. But in the 19th century. So Hull eventually graduates to a rigged gambling scheme where an accomplice would sell marked decks to saloons and hotels and. And then George would go in and charm unsuspecting patrons into playing games against him with those same cards. He repeats this fraud throughout the Northeast until the early 1850s, more than a decade before the Cardiff Giant is discovered. When he's finally arrested, passing through Broome City, New York, Hull serves a stint in jail there. Then he gets back on his feet with the help of his brother, who happens to live in the area. George responds to his brother's kindness by marrying his 16 year old daughter, Helen.
[65:38]
B
Yikes.
[65:39]
A
George's biological niece.
[65:40]
B
Do not do that, please.
[65:42]
A
Very much against the family's wishes and 19th century standards, this is disturbing and scandalous. They become social outcasts and the scrutiny actually becomes so intense that they move onto a farm in a far flung part of the county. There, George works in the tobacco industry, making and selling cigars. But he also tries his hand at inventor renting. He later claims to have come up with a, quote, harness snap, out of which I ought to have made myself rich, but I didn't. End quote. And that's because George, he invents this harness snap, and then he Immediately sells it for $300, which is roughly how much today?
[66:21]
B
1500.
[66:22]
A
$300, yeah. $11,000. God damn it. Today. Later, he finds out that the buyer of the patent made over $400,000 from it.
[66:34]
B
Shit.
[66:35]
A
Which would be how?
[66:36]
B
Oh, 2.7.
[66:38]
A
$15 million today.
[66:41]
B
Damn.
[66:41]
A
So he's got a chip on his shoulder if all of that is true. But these experiences fuel his transformation from a small time con with questionable morals into a deeply disgruntled member of society who has a particular chip on her shoulder. About religious. George engages in explosive, exhausting debates on religion with his neighbors. Those debates are described as pyrotechnic by the New York Daily Tribune. And writer Scott Tribble adds, quote, the salvos against religion reflected not only Hull's longstanding skepticism, but also his growing dissatisfaction with the society that shunned him and his wife. Okay, friend, do you mean your niece? Yeah. Do you mean that teenager in your life?
[67:25]
B
Which one are you talking about?
[67:27]
A
There's a really hilarious TikTok I saw that was like, guys will defend dating teenage girls, but when you say, well, then why don't you hang out with teenage boys? They don't know what you're talking about. We're still in the quote. Mainstream and religious society were largely one and the same at this point in history. And George's atheism was fast taking on a more general misanthropy. So we're going to Fast forward to 1866. This is now three years before the Cardiff Giant is uncovered. George, who is in his mid-40s, is in Iowa on business. Business. And during this trip, he finds himself in yet another heated debate about religion, this time with a traveling preacher. The men argue over the Bible, which the preacher interprets literally and George thinks is a complete fabrication. Eventually, they part ways, but George can't shake the conversation. So that night as he's laying in bed, he fixates on a specific Bible verse that says, quote, there were giants in the earth in those days. So George hatches a plan to make the pious look blindly loyal, if not flat out foolish. He decides he's going to create his own giant, pass it off as the real deal, and then basically let it be discovered as a hoax and make everybody look stupid. And he also, he's pretty sure the idea could make him a small fortune. So the plan starts about two years later in 1868, after George Cashes out his cigar business in Broome county, heads back to Iowa, hires men to lift an enormous five ton block of gypsum from A local quarry under the false pretense that it'll be used to sculpt a statue of Abraham Lincoln. Abraham Lincoln had just been assassinated three years earlier. George then arranges for that gypsum to be shipped to Chicago, where he hires a stone cutter and sculptors, all sworn to some.
[69:23]
B
This is so much work to prove a point.
[69:26]
A
Yes.
[69:27]
B
Like, maybe that's what I need in my life is more like, what is it? A vendetta against someone. Get me to do shit. Cause otherwise this sounds exhausting.
[69:36]
A
You do know this is your job, right? Oh, you do shit all the time, dude.
[69:40]
B
I mean, more than my job, you.
[69:42]
A
Know, like, leave the house knitting, more quilting. Oh, you just go outside.
[69:47]
B
Yeah, just go outside.
[69:48]
A
Just go outside.
[69:49]
B
Like, put clothes on, take a shower.
[69:51]
A
I do think that that thing, self righteousness is quite, quite an engine.
[69:55]
B
Yeah.
[69:56]
A
So speaking from personal experience, where you're just kind of like, well, I'll have you know that energy gets you right up and out of the house a lot of the time.
[70:05]
B
Yeah. Being doubted is a good source of energy for me.
[70:08]
A
Yeah.
[70:08]
B
You know.
[70:09]
A
Yeah. I doubt you could get off the couch anyway.
[70:12]
B
I'm gonna show her. You saved my life.
[70:15]
A
What I also love is all those kinds of hoaxes. There are at least five people keeping their mouth shut, which I always think is fascinating because it's like, how. How do we find more people like you totally to be.
[70:28]
B
You don't. Because they're keeping their mouth shut.
[70:30]
A
That's right.
[70:30]
B
People never know.
[70:31]
A
They're like, you'll never know. And I won't have a deathbed confession. I'm the type that actually understands taking secrets to the grave.
[70:38]
B
I hate it.
[70:39]
A
So George R. Smith and George Baszler report, quote, george Hull was a hands on embossed, supervising the work and hanging carpets and quilts on the walls to deaden the sound of the chiseling. He even supplied the sculptors with a steady supply of beer to keep them happy. So then In September of 1868, when the artist showed George their finished product, he's worried that that stone looks too pristine and new. So he throws together a cocktail of chemicals and douses his giant until it has a more distressed look. And then he takes a bunch of needles, pokes them into a piece of wood, and to hit the stone over and over so that it appears to have pores.
[71:22]
B
This is what people do to jeans, right? To make them look worn in.
[71:26]
A
And what is this?
[71:27]
B
Oh, microneedling.
[71:28]
A
Microneedling, yeah. Eventually, George is satisfied the giant is put into a Massive box that's marked as finished marble and transported by rail to New York. When it arrives, it's put into a wagon. It's hauled to the Newell farm in Cardiff because it turns out William Newell is George Hull's cousin. Hey, he's been married this whole thing the whole time. Yeah, exactly. Shit. Yeah. In a way, he married him in dishonesty. In the marriage of dishonesty.
[71:58]
B
So he knew the whole time.
[71:59]
A
He knew the whole time it was acting. Which also is like, oh, that's right. You had the workers dig it up. And then once you hit it, you're like, I'll be right back. So that I don't have to stand here pretending to be surprised. Okay. So they get to the final step, obviously, the buried the Giant together. And then George Hull waits and waits. An entire year passes. And then In October of 1869, George gives William the green light to hire and then lead the oblivious workers to the exact location under the guise that William is digging a well. Then, once the Giant's unearthed, William plays dumb. George is still managing the entire scene and situation from the shadows and from start to finish. It took George about three years to bring this spiteful dream to fruition, as well as around $2,600.
[72:50]
B
Oh, my God.
[72:51]
A
Which in today's money would be worth.
[72:54]
B
Don't tell me. 1.5 60,000. God damn it. This is like the worst I've ever done.
[73:00]
A
You overcorrected that to the last number. In the end, Hull does exactly what he set out to. Some of his marks are indeed faithful people. Meanwhile, he makes a big return on his investment after striking a deal with the local businessmen who invest in it. But now, with PT Barnum cutting into the card of Giants ticket sales, George is not happy. So In December of 1869, George Hull comes forward. As the creator of the Cardiff Giant, Scott Tribble suggests George's motivation here is quite simply another opportunity to. When George comes forward, he dually pitches a tell all book on how he came up with the whole hoax. It's kind of good business. Like, I have an announcement and then a second announcement.
[73:44]
B
Yeah.
[73:45]
A
Although Maren then notes here to me, doesn't seem like that book ever got written. So, back on tour, the Cardiff Giants operators are trying to figure out their next move. They ultimately decide to take the Giant to Boston, hoping that the distance from New York City will at least let them draw a crowd for a little while longer. This works for a few months. It's so long ago that no one knew it was fake.
[74:11]
B
I know geography and Boston's not that fucking far from New York.
[74:15]
A
Sorry, you do now know geography or you don't?
[74:17]
B
I know it. Well, I told you.
[74:19]
A
Now you're claiming you do know.
[74:20]
B
I've told you this for almost nine years.
[74:22]
A
Okay, I see.
[74:23]
B
It's one of my favorite subjects.
[74:24]
A
Oh, right. That's right. But it was so long ago that it would be like, I don't even know if these guys were around, where you could be like, news on the card of Giant.
[74:33]
B
Right, that's true.
[74:34]
A
No one was doing it. So among those who come to see the card of Giant when it's in Boston is none other than Ralph Waldo Emerson, who describes it as, quote, astonishing.
[74:45]
B
He believes, what a dumbass.
[74:47]
A
What a rube. But the card of Giants allure is quickly nosediving. In addition to the failed injunction against PT Barnum, the dwindling interest from crime crowds, the growing number of skeptics, and of course George Hull, who is shopping his own. Tell all story around. The sculptors who carve the Giant come forward and accuse George Hull of never paying them.
[75:10]
B
Oh, shit, you can't do that.
[75:11]
A
He pulled a full Donald Trump and just didn't pay the workers.
[75:14]
B
People can't keep secrets when they don't have their pockets lined.
[75:18]
A
Yeah, they should not have to be expected to. So alongside all this bad press, the Cardiff Giant, which was once considered a marvel, now settles into its identity as a sideshow oddity.
[75:30]
B
Still kind of cool though.
[75:31]
A
It's great.
[75:32]
B
Yeah.
[75:33]
A
The whole concept is.
[75:34]
B
Yeah, that's got even better story.
[75:36]
A
Human innovation.
[75:37]
B
Yeah.
[75:38]
A
Less than a year after it's dug up on the Newell farm, the Cardiff Giant quickly fades into obscurity. But the appetite for unearthed prehistoric, quote unquote humans does not dwindle. In fact, George Hull's hoax sparks a wave of similar discoveries across the country. Among the most famous is the Solid Muldoon. You ever heard of the Solid Muldoon?
[76:02]
B
No. Sounds like. Sounds like something you do to like to fuck with your little brother or something. I gave him the old Solid Muldoon.
[76:10]
A
Solid Muldoon. The Solid Muldoon was dug up in Colorado in the mid-1870s. It's billed as a seven foot tall prehistoric petrified man who in a twist, appears to have a tail. The Solid Muldoon is quickly put on display for 10 cent admission and it's touted as, quote, the missing link between man and apes. Oh, it also. You can tell Vince this if he gives a shit. The Solid Muldoon was said that he was named after either famous wrestler of the day, William Muldoon, or Muldoon Hill. Just getting a little wrestling trivia in there. And I know there's a bunch of Murderinos with wrestling passions crossover.
[76:50]
B
There is. We watch wrestling in my favorite Murder. They're so similar.
[76:54]
A
I mean, very spiritually similar. But the Muldoon's mystery doesn't last. A chatty insider spills the truth and word spreads that it's yet another fake. And then in perhaps the least surprising twist, the man behind this creation is also George Hull.
[77:12]
B
I swear to God, this is reminding me when I was a little kid, we went to like some shitty carnival with my dad. I don't even know where it was. And it was like walk through the tunnel of like, you know, man eating fish. And it like all spooky noise. And it was like the saddest carcass of a fish hanging by threads I've ever. Even as a seven year old, I was like, this is bunk.
[77:32]
A
So fake.
[77:33]
B
This is like we paid extra tickets to go see this.
[77:35]
A
Yeah.
[77:36]
B
And this is like embarrassing.
[77:39]
A
It's so embarrassing. And also, you know, no brag, but we would kind of live at the fair every year when we had to go do four each stuff.
[77:46]
B
Yeah, yeah.
[77:46]
A
And so we got to see all of that where it's like this horse stands 21 hands high or whatever. And you hear it like playing all day long.
[77:54]
B
Yes, that's exactly it. As a man eating fish of a thousand.
[77:58]
A
And you just. Maybe it was because our parents gave us the money to then satisfy that curiosity. Then we immediately were like, they ripped us off. And then it's like most kids never have that experience and they have it when they're like 24.
[78:11]
B
I got my nose pierced at the harvest festival when I was 13. There was like a piercing ear piercing booth. I was like, haley, you did my nose. And this fucking lady was like, do you have your mom here? And I just grabbed some lady drinking a beer. And I was like, will you tell them you're my mom? She's like, sure, honey. And she was like some blonde lady. I couldn't look less like she would be my mother.
[78:33]
A
Did she know you were getting a nose, Pier?
[78:35]
B
Yeah.
[78:36]
A
And she was just like, she was cool.
[78:38]
B
I always remember her.
[78:39]
A
Give a shit.
[78:40]
B
No, she was cool.
[78:41]
A
Shout out to you, Rhonda.
[78:43]
B
Definitely Rhonda.
[78:44]
A
Such a Rhonda. Such a Rhonda.
[78:46]
B
Okay, okay. Where were we?
[78:48]
A
He made another giant, but this time with the tail.
[78:50]
B
Got it.
[78:51]
A
And that was a shout out to Darwinism. So with this latest stunt, George was certainly aiming for another payday. He almost got it. PT Bardem reportedly offered $20,000 for the solid Muldoon, which is roughly $600,000 in today's money.
[79:09]
B
Just take PT Barnum's money.
[79:12]
A
I mean, you might as well. But for whatever reason, it doesn't seem like Barnum actually ever purchased it. The deal fell apart somehow. I bet you it's George Hall's.
[79:21]
B
Oh, it's you.
[79:22]
A
Yeah. Oh, you.
[79:23]
B
It's all you meddling kids. You know, whatever.
[79:25]
A
I'm not dealing with you. As writer Mark Rose reports, quote, where Barnum admitted offering $50,000 for the Cardiff Giant in 1869, his supposed offer for the solid Muldoon seven years later was only 20,000. By the 1890s, petrified men were cheap. One found at Wind Cave, South Dakota, went for $2,000, and another found near Fresno and exhibited in the popular drugstore there, sold for $1,000.
[79:52]
B
I feel bad for, like, the real one. There's one real one out there probably right.
[79:56]
A
It could be down there. Like, yeah, guys, I turned to stone. Oh, wait, then it says, petrified men had lost their financial punch. Their game was over. So interest in the solid muldoon quickly fades. George sank a lot of money into this hoax, and he never recoups what he spent. He ultimately returns to his career in the tobacco business, but he struggles financially for the rest of his life, and he dies in 1902 at 81 years old, in obscurity and without much money. But history. The website history reports that he was, quote, still proud of once fooling the world with the Cardiff Giant. For years, George's original Cardiff Giant was regulated to the back of a barn in Massachusetts.
[80:40]
B
Oh, my goodness.
[80:41]
A
Which I love. Like, basically, it got bought and sold a couple times, and then basically, someone put it in the back of the barn, was like, yeah, my dad bought that in the 50s next to a DeLorean. Whatever. Then in 1901, the year before George's death, it got carted out of storage for the Pan American Exposition in Buffalo, New York, but not many people came to see it. The Giant is again bought and sold several times, and then in 1974, it finally winds up in the hands of the Farmers Museum in Cooperstown, New York, run by the New York State Historical association, and it's on display there to this day. And the association's vice president for education, Garrett Livermore, has said, quote, it's one of our most popular exhibitions. People are still fascinated by this story, which, like, almost Makes me cry. For some reason.
[81:32]
B
It's like almost become more interesting because it's so fake and because there's so much like.
[81:38]
A
Cause it's kind of just about people. Yeah, it's about.
[81:41]
B
It's a people's story, human nature.
[81:43]
A
We're always looking past that of like, where's the giants from days of yore? Or whatever, where it's just like, how about a story about George Hull who was walking around looking like Snidely Whiplash and trying to make giant sculptures? Trick like Bible.
[82:00]
B
Yeah.
[82:01]
A
The Cardiff Giants story has all the elements that we know and love. A shocking discovery, a circus like sense of wonder, a media frenzy, faith, butting heads with science and shameless capitalism. All of these things that feel distinctly, chaotically and timelessly American. As Gerald R. Smith and George Baszler Note 2 close. For some visitors to the Farmers Museum, the Cardiff Giant hoax can take on the rosy glow for a time when America seemed more innocent. Although whether this time actually existed is a matter of debate. Others remark on the gullibility of people who fell for the hoax. But maybe they shouldn't be so smug. Witness today's Internet hoaxes and online scams. For example, stories about aliens building the great pyramids. Hey, end quote. Yeah, very good slam in there right at the end. Smith and Basler add that quote. Certainly the memory of the Cardiff Giant has outlived the memory of its creator. No marker exists in Cardiff to remember Hull the Great Hoaxer. Considering his ego, he would certainly not be pleased. As the biblical saying goes, a prophet is without honor in his home country. That could go for a hoaxer as well. And that's the story of George Hull and the Cardiff Giant.
[83:19]
B
Wow.
[83:21]
A
Doot, doot, doot, doot.
[83:24]
B
Great job. What was that?
[83:26]
A
I'm not sure. I just. I guess I loved that that I had to give it a theme song button.
[83:32]
B
Okay. That was great. That had everything I wanted in life. That was a perfect story.
[83:40]
A
Thank you. Well, yours was perfect too.
[83:42]
B
Thank you. They were great together. Two great tastes that are even greater together.
[83:46]
A
Yeah.
[83:47]
B
Yeah. We did it.
[83:49]
A
We did it again.
[83:49]
B
Should we just end it?
[83:51]
A
I think we should. Okay.
[83:52]
B
Thanks for listening, you guys. We appreciate you. We're here with you in spirit and spirit and Cardiff Giants.
[84:00]
A
And let's stick together as we go.
[84:04]
B
Forward and stay sexy and don't get murdered. Goodbye, Elvis. Do you want a cookie?
[84:19]
A
This has been an exactly right production.
[84:21]
B
Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck.
[84:23]
A
Our managing producers hand.
[84:25]
B
Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.
[84:28]
A
This episode was mixed by Liana Squalace.
[84:30]
B
Our researchers are Maren McClassian and Allie Elkin.
[84:34]
A
Email your hometowns to my favorite murdermail.com.
[84:36]
B
Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at myfavoritemurder and Twitter yfavemurder. Goodbye.