469 - Crochet Positive

Summary

Podcast Title: My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Episode: 469 - Crochet Positive
Release Date: February 27, 2025
Host/Author: iHeartPodcasts

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Episode Summary

"Crochet Positive" delves into two compelling true crime narratives, intertwined with the hosts' signature humor and insightful commentary. Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark explore the dubious career of Stephane Bergwa, a purported serial killer expert, and revisit the infamous Great Train Robbery of 1963 in Britain. Throughout the episode, they dissect the intricacies of these cases, uncovering layers of deception and audacious criminal endeavors.

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1. The Rise and Fall of Stephane Bergwa

[13:06] Georgia Hardstark:
Georgia introduces the main story, expressing her initial skepticism about the depth of the Stephane Bergwa narrative.

Origins and Early Career
Stephane Bergwa was born in 1953 to affluent parents in Paris. His early fascination with genre films led him to write for a crime zine and eventually launch his own film festival. However, his attempt to compete with his employer resulted in a failed festival and strained professional relationships.

Transition to the US and Personal Tragedy
Bergwa moved to the United States to break into Hollywood, where he claims to have fallen in love with a woman named Helene (or Eileen) Alain. Tragically, he alleges that Alain was brutally murdered around 1975, an event that supposedly fueled his obsession with serial killers. He later became the owner of the Third Eye bookstore in Paris, a hub for true crime enthusiasts, and authored over 70 true crime books, cementing his reputation.

Questioning Bergwa's Credibility
The Fourth Eye Corporation, an online community of web sleuths, began scrutinizing Bergwa's extensive career. They identified numerous inconsistencies in his accounts:

• Interviews with Serial Killers: Bergwa claims to have interviewed high-profile killers like John Gacy and Ed Kemper. However, real experts like John Douglas refute his claims, labeling him an impostor ([43:59]).
• Alain/Eileen's Murder: The sleuths found no records of a woman named Helene or Eileen Alain being murdered, casting doubt on Bergwa's personal tragedy ([44:13]).
• Plagiarism and Fabrication: While Bergwa didn't plagiarize directly, he appropriated others' life stories, presenting them as his own. An example includes misrepresenting Mickey Pistorius's traumatic experience ([43:59]).

Public Exposure and Downfall
In 2020, the Fourth Eye Corporation publicly debunked Bergwa's fabricated credentials and dubious stories through YouTube videos and media outreach. Bergwa's attempts to suppress these allegations only accelerated his decline. By 2025, he had lost credibility and retreated from the public eye, serving as a cautionary tale about deceit within the true crime community.

Notable Quotes:

• Georgia Hardstark [43:59]: "Bourgoin is delusional and an imposter."
  (Referring to John Douglas's statement about Bergwa)
• Georgia Hardstark [29:31]: "I saw Stephane change when he had the killers in front of him. It was as if he was sitting across from his idols."
  (Carol Carringer on Bergwa's behavior during interviews)

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2. The Great Train Robbery of 1963

[53:42] Georgia Hardstark:
Georgia transitions to another gripping tale from British history—the Great Train Robbery, detailing the largest rail heist of its time.

The Heist
On August 8, 1963, fifteen masked individuals orchestrated a daring robbery of a British mail train near Cheddington. Equipped with makeshift tools, the robbers subdued the train engineers, detached the high-value cargo car containing £2.5 million (equivalent to approximately $71 million today), and swiftly transferred the cash to waiting Land Rovers.

Investigation and Arrests
Scotland Yard's Flying Squad took charge of the case. Key evidence included fingerprints found on items like a bottle of ketchup and a Monopoly game, leading to the arrest of Roger Cordry and subsequently 11 others. The mastermind, Bruce Reynolds, evaded capture for years, inspiring media fascination.

Mystery of the Insider
An enduring mystery surrounds the heist: the identity of the insider who provided crucial information to the robbers. In 2014, through Gordon Goody's revelations in the documentary "A Tale of Two Thieves," investigators identified Patrick McKenna as the elusive collaborator. McKenna's unassuming persona and quiet life starkly contrasted his pivotal role in the heist, leaving many questions unanswered about his motives and the fate of the stolen money.

Notable Quotes:

• Georgia Hardstark [75:19]: "We wanted to do something as spectacular as that. We wanted to draw our line in the sand."
  (Bruce Reynolds on the motivation behind the heist)
• Gordon Goody [81:05]: "The fact that Jack Mills getting hurt was my biggest regret. Nobody was going to get hurt. We were gentleman robbers."
  (Reflecting on the unintended violence during the robbery)

Cultural Impact and Legacy
The Great Train Robbery captivated the British public, symbolizing audacious criminal ingenuity. It has inspired numerous media portrayals and remains a benchmark in the annals of true crime. The lingering questions about the insider and the vast sum never fully recovered continue to intrigue enthusiasts and historians alike.

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Conclusion

In Episode 469 - Crochet Positive, Karen and Georgia intertwine humor with meticulous exploration of intricate true crime stories. They illuminate the dangers of unchecked obsession and the allure of grandiose criminal endeavors. Through their engaging storytelling and critical analysis, listeners gain a profound understanding of the complexities within the true crime landscape.

Notable Closing Remarks:

• Karen Kilgariff [83:34]: "And this episode was mixed by Liana Squillace."
  (Acknowledging production team)
• Georgia Hardstark [84:07]: "Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at myfavoritemurder.com."
  (Encouraging audience engagement)

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Key Takeaways

• Skepticism in True Crime: The Stephane Bergwa case underscores the importance of verifying sources and credentials within the true crime community.
• Intricacies of High-Stakes Heists: The Great Train Robbery exemplifies the meticulous planning and unforeseen complications inherent in large-scale criminal operations.
• Enduring Fascination: Both stories highlight society's enduring fascination with crime, whether through the lens of deception or high-octane robberies.

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Further Listening

For those intrigued by the Depths of Stephane Bergwa's deceit or the audacity of the Great Train Robbery, previous episodes covering related topics include:

• Episode 440: "I'm Michael Caine" – Discussing John Gerard Shaffer's story.
• Episode 242: "Spoilerama" – Covering George's story about Adam Walsh.
• Episode 39: "Kind of Loco" – Featuring Ed Kemper.
• Episode 446: "I'm Michael Caine" – The Hatton Garden jewel heist.
• Our Live Episode 110: Columbus, Ohio show covering Donald Harvey.

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Stay tuned for more riveting true crime stories and analyses on My Favorite Murder. Remember to follow the podcast on your preferred platform and engage with the community for the latest updates and discussions.

Transcript

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is exactly right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Unknown]

I'm packing everything but my microphone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Unknown]

Hello and welcome to my favorite murder.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's Georgia Hart's, right?

[Unknown]

That's Karen Kilgariff.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And now we're going to podcast at you.

[Unknown]

Ready? Here it comes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Begin.

[Unknown]

Begin again.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And now act enact. Act like you can podcast.

[Unknown]

What do you got? I have nothing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, well then great, because I have plenty for.

[Unknown]

Okay, great. Let's do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Last week I told a very disturbing story of a woman who claimed to have found a finger in her chili at Wendy's.

[Unknown]

Oh, we'll never forget.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean none of us shall ever. But in that story, I name checked my friend Erica Sobel, who I went to high school with. And as I expected, she texted me because she is a not only a day one listener, but she is a week to weeker.

[Unknown]

Nice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Give a different title to people. She. She texted me. Lol. Crying, laughing face. Thank you for the Wendy's shout out. Yes. I worked at Wendy's for years, sophomore to senior.

[Unknown]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All of high school. Her parents were those like you will go out and get a job and learn reality.

[Unknown]

Amazing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

For the record, we had very strict food safety training. When this story came out, I knew it was obviously bullshit. She's a Wendy's believer. She wasn't just an employee.

[Unknown]

Like, you work somewhere that long, you get. You're going to hate it if it sucks.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. You know you're going to jump on any story. It's like hooray. And she was like, absolutely not. She said, as I recall, the chili was made in the afternoon. Burgers were grilled fresh, never frozen. And we saved the patties that didn't get sold in a certain amount of time to chop up and add to a bagged pre made chili mix.

[Unknown]

I read that somewhere too. Someone else said that of like, it's the like sad hamburgers that didn't make it onto a hamburger bunch chopped up into the chili.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Which makes perfect sense.

[Unknown]

It does.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They're using every part of the buffalo, which is. It is not buffalo. No. People love chili. This is so funny, Erica. People love chili on the baked potato, taco salads, chili fries, taco salad.

[Unknown]

Just dump a big piling hot fucking.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Spoonful of chili on it, but right onto some iceberg. That sounds good. Did you know they had chili fries? I had no idea.

[Unknown]

No, but it makes sense if they have fries and chili.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, and then it says, I got a text from my murderino cousin in Baltimore early this morning. She was dying. You mentioned my name. Oh my God. And then the very last text is, oh, and just saying I never eat the chili.

[Unknown]

Also, when did she send that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Friday.

[Unknown]

Because you didn't respond to her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, it's.

[Unknown]

There's no response.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, the first thing was I saw it and didn't have her number in my phone. So immediately was like, none of my business. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I am the queen of, like, what's this link you just sent me?

[Unknown]

And no, you have a. You have a toll ticket you never paid.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't.

[Unknown]

I better pay it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Literally.

[Unknown]

Did you do that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I didn't touch the link. But the toll ticket thing.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Toll ticket thing was, like, haunting me where I'm like. Cause I'm always going over the San Rafael Bridge when I go home.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And you're not allowed to, like, you just have to run it. And then they send you the. The toll.

[Unknown]

Cause we do the 1:10 to the free to the airport. There's that easy pass.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah.

[Unknown]

Which is, like, golden.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yep.

[Unknown]

So I was like, oh, maybe I. And I'd been to the airport recently. And Vince was like, fucking. No, don't click on it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't go nowhere near this, guys.

[Unknown]

It's a scam. Everyone's like, no shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. But they're like. But it's like, thanks, grandma.

[Unknown]

Yeah. As if, like, the toll place would be like, it's sent from 1, 3, 4. At Hotmail, they told me that I have to pay my.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. Or just like, oh, I guess they're making their employees use their personal Hotmail accounts. O. Here, I'll answer you.

[Unknown]

Don't trust anything.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You guys trust nothing.

[Unknown]

Yeah, but.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But please trust random gifts.

[Unknown]

What is this?

[Georgia Hardstark]

We'll just see.

[Unknown]

Okay. Karen just gave me a big, gorgeous fucking gift bag with gorgeous fucking tissue coming out of it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Really beautifully, expertly put together.

[Unknown]

Which means you didn't. You're saying you could do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Exactly right.

[Unknown]

You're impressed. It looks like a wine bottle gift bag.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You paused. Like, I'm not now. I'm not trying to insult you.

[Unknown]

Yeah. You. If you said it was nice. Okay. What is this? It' can of something. A can of Wendy's chili.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did you know they made that? No.

[Unknown]

Who gave this to us?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Allison went and found it.

[Unknown]

Alison Agrasco.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Alison and Alejandro, I believe. But I think Allison was the one that searched for it to see.

[Unknown]

Had no clue that they canned Wendy's chili. I'd eat that. I would eat this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And like, any kind of hesitation I would have about not eating it is false. Is from a fake story.

[Unknown]

Right. Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which sucks.

[Unknown]

It sucks. It's gonna be frustrating. But then. Yeah. You're just always gonna have toe or finger, I guess. Yeah. And chili in your mind when you go there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, I guess. Thought you'd really enjoy, though. That you can actually get it in cans.

[Unknown]

I'm so happy for that. Thank you. I will eat that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Anything else you that you've been looking at or absorbing?

[Unknown]

I've been reading books.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You love a book?

[Unknown]

I love books. But, like, there's nothing much going on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, then let's just get into the show like regular true crime podcasts.

[Unknown]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Unknown]

That was a quickie. Before we tell you our stories, we're gonna give you some highlights from our very own podcast network. Exactly right. Media.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. So, for example, this week on Buried Bones, Kate and Paul dive into the chilling tale of John Wesley Elkins, the infamous 13 year old who murdered his father and stepmother in 1889.

[Unknown]

Wow. And over on do youo Need a Ride? Karen and Chris welcome the always hilarious and delightfully witty Solomon Giorgio. Love him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And speaking of Karen, she joins the Banana Boys this week to talk about some of the world's most outlandish headlines.

[Unknown]

How fun. And this week on this podcast will kill you. Get ready for a hard hitting discussion about sildenafil, the medication used to treat everyone's favorite dysfunction, erectile dysfunction.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You did want me to say it along with you, right?

[Unknown]

Everyone said it with me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Unknown]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

Can I. Can I give you the way that Ellison wanted you to say? Oh, let me hear it. I was supposed to remember it. I forgot. Well, caw, caw.

[Unknown]

Well, I'm glad you did it and not me because I'm not doing that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You can do a crow impression only.

[Unknown]

When not told to. You know what I mean?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I get it.

[Unknown]

I don't like to be told how to crow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Unknown]

Go to my favoritemurder.com. hey, Karen, I want you to picture yourself going for a drive. What comes to mind?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not ever being able to merge on any freeway in Los Angeles. And potholes. And crying.

[Unknown]

Oh, yeah. Well, the truth is, the road can feel like it's out to get you at every turn. But, Karen, it doesn't have to be.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Unknown]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Unknown]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Unknown]

Oh my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, get this for me right now.

[Unknown]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Unknown]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Unknown]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

The New Year's Here. It's the perfect time to refresh those household essentials and score some cash back rewards with Colgate Palmolive. From toothpaste to dish soap, chances are you've got Colgate Palmolive products on your shopping list and in your house. Right now we're talking brands like Colgate Soft Soap, Palmolive, Irish Spring Fabuloso and Tom's of Maine. And right now you can get up to a $10 digital Visa prepaid card when you buy up to $30 of Colgate Palmolive products. Here's how it Spend $20 on their products, get $5, spend $30. Get a $10 reward. All you do is shop your favorite brands, snap a pic of your receipt, and upload it to CPR. It's so easy. That's cprewards.com so grab what you need or maybe try something new and get rewarded just for doing your usual shopping. And start your year fresh by earning cash back rewards with Colgate Palmolive rewards available while supplies Last, limit supply us only 1125 through 331.25. For full terms and conditions, visit cprewards.com.

[Unknown]

Okay, you're first. I'm sitting back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, sit on back. Because when this story was first pitched to me, and I think it was either by Maren or by Alejandra Keck, our producer, I couldn't believe, like, I think I'd heard, like, inklings, I guess, is the right word of this story around a little bit. But I'd never, like, gotten the full scope of what we were talking about.

[Unknown]

Oh, shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So this story begins in France in 2020, as an online community of web sleuths is hard at work.

[Unknown]

Okay, love them. Love it already.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What a kickoff, right? Oh. So this community is in France. They call themselves the Fourth I Corporation, and they're currently doing what they do best, which is combing through news reports and interviews, building out timelines of specific crimes and calling sources around the world to verify their information.

[Unknown]

Like, what a dream. What a dream to do. Fuck crocheting. This is what I want to do with my fucking retirement.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Excuse me, listener. She did not mean that.

[Unknown]

I mean crochet while you do this. Yes, that's all I meant. Yes. Oh, my God. I just pissed off so many fucking people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. Etsy just exploded. So the Fourth Eye Corporation does all of this in hopes of untangling what is at that time, a very murky backstory around one man, a well known French author and criminology expert who began his career as the former owner of the Parisian bookstore, the Third Eye. Okay, Right. So this is the Fourth Eye Corporation looking into the Third Eye.

[Unknown]

Like fourth generation or fourth. Fourth wave feminism.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Exactly. Got it. Just like that. Just like it. And the Third Eye was known for its crime and mystery collection. So this man that owned that bookstore has built a successful career catering to the people exactly like you and me and the members of the Fourth Eye Corporation and many people listening to this podcast right now. But now his career has made him the focus of this group of people's research and investigations. But for all the wrong reasons. This is the story of the rise and fall of true crime charlatan Stephane Bergwa.

[Unknown]

Oh, I'm excited.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Have you heard of any of this?

[Unknown]

Not a fucking moment of this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Really?

[Unknown]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Unknown]

Like, maybe it'll get familiar, but right now. Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's a fresh one. I love that. Okay, so the main sources used in Marin's research today are an article by Lauren Collins entitled the Unraveling of an Expert on Serial Killers, which ran in the New Yorker in 2022. So this is a very recent story. Also an article by Scott Sayer entitled what Lies Beneath the Secret of France's Top Serial Killer Expert.

[Unknown]

I get it. With lies. It's because it's lying.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's lies. And I wonder if lies was like in red Lies or italicized. Yep, exactly. Laying to the side. That article was in The Guardian in 2021. Both of those sources are heavily cited in this story. So thank you, Lauren and Scott. The rest of the sources are in our show. So we'll start at the beginning. Long before the Fourth Eye Corporation exists. This is Stephane Bourgoin's origin story. He's born in 1953, a decade after the end of World War II, to very wealthy and socially connected parents. The Bergoin's huge apartment has a view of L'Arc de Triomphe.

[Unknown]

Oh, I've heard of it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And a staff. And a staff of domestic servants that work at the family's beck and call.

[Unknown]

Damn.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Very specific upbringing.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Especially after World War II. I don't think a lot of people were wealthy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Then, right, In Europe. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, true. So young Stephan describes an idyllic childhood where he bounces around mid century Paris, sometimes spending entire days at the movie theater watching films back to back. Now when I got to that part, I was like, but they only play one movie at a time at the movie theater. It's not tv.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So I'm like, is this even true?

[Unknown]

Back to back of one is still back to back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just back to back of the same movie. You're just like Harilyn Maude. Again. Again. Again. That is a great movie.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So Stephane loves movies so much that by his late teens, he's doing everything he can to break into the Parisian film world.

[Unknown]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's especially drawn to genre film like horror, science Fiction. And eventually he connects with the publisher of a genre zine named Alain Shlokov. So he starts writing for Alain and the two. In 1975, Elaine is working tirelessly to launch a film festival, and Stefan is helping out his assistant. Until it comes to light that Stefan has actually been contacting filmmakers behind his boss's back, pretending to be his boss in the hopes that he can acquire enough films to create his own competing film festival.

[Unknown]

Get your own ideas, get your own gimmicks.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's almost like, get your own contacts.

[Unknown]

Copy his gimmick, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or is that your only choice? Like, you kind of don't know what else to do. Yeah.

[Unknown]

Cause you don't have any ideas of your own.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Journalist Scott Sayer later reports, quote, elaine cut ties with Stephane immediately. Stephane's festival took place, but flopped damn well. Yeah. You can't just do it and be like, no, mine, my competing festival. Okay. So this, of course, is a bad look and a bad move. Also in genre film, it's not like all of film. It's very specific. I would imagine a smaller set of people. But Stephane shakes it off and heads to the US Hoping to break into Hollywood. Once here, he reportedly gets some work writing pornographic films.

[Unknown]

I bet that was so easy back then.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, they are very plot driven and can be a lot like memento at times where you.

[Unknown]

It's so, am I coming or am I going? Literally, is it linear? Is anything linear?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are you the pizza man or the plumber? Those are the two choices. When he eventually returns to France, he comes back with what one friend calls, quote, stars in his eyes about the United States. He's also got suitcases stuffed with comic books memorabilia and countless stories of meeting actors and directors. But Stephane also returns with a much more tragic and disturbing story. He tells his inner circle that while he's in the US he meets and falls in love with a woman named Helene, the French pronunciation of Helen, Alain. Then one day while he's at work, Alain is murdered and as Stephane tells his friends, quote, cut up into pieces.

[Unknown]

What year is this?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Around 75.

[Unknown]

Okay. Hmm.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Stephan says he was the one who discovered her body.

[Unknown]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's around 30 years old at the time, so, of course, this horrible, devastating, and traumatic event that happens while he's alone in a new country. But despite all that, Stephan starts working at a local secondhand bookstore, the Third Eye. And he loves it so much that he soon buys it outright and basically becomes his own boss. The Third Eye bookstore is a hub for people that are into true crime and genre fiction in Paris. Can you imagine?

[Unknown]

No. There's gotta be a cat. Tell me there's a cat.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's gotta be a cat. And an array of scarves and berets.

[Unknown]

That you would kill for smoking indoors around all the paper reeks.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did you read the new hen Roule? Would be the question.

[Unknown]

Good one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you so much. Finally, using my French education of two years, St. Vincent's High School. So Stephane is such a fixture in the shop that he inspires a few writers to create characters that are kind of based on him for their books. He also becomes a go to translator for books written by famous English language crime and horror authors like the author Robert Bloch, who wrote Psycho at the time. Stephan is earning a reputation for his truly impressive and encyclopedic knowledge of serial killers. Into the 1990s, the people around him start noticing that he's becoming borderline obsessed with the topic. Scott Sayer writes that, quote, initially his friends found it amusing, or at least inoffensive, but it soon grew tiresome. He spoke of nothing else.

[Unknown]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

End quote.

[Unknown]

Can't talk shit on that, can I?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, there is no judgment here, but only in this one small part of the story. Yeah, but it's interesting because the concept of serial killers basically kind of broke in the late 70s when Ted Bundy, like, there were some big stories that broke.

[Unknown]

Yeah, there was spree killing, there was multiple murders. But they never understood actual. The way we understand them today, serial.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Killers, which I think has to do with the team from Mindhunter going in and basically trying to, as the FBI, study them and talk about it and be like, there's something here too.

[Unknown]

Right. There's a pattern. There's a difference between a spree killer and. And a serial killer and a crime of passion.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is a different thing. And we need to delineate. These are people that are planning and doing it for totally different reasons.

[Unknown]

Totally.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which was very compelling. I mean, that is why that whole genre kind of came up in the 80s and 90s the way it did. But in the early 80s and 90s in France, basically that conversation hadn't really come to the cultural fore yet. Of course, France had its own history of sadistic and repeat offenders, but the idea of serious being their own category of criminal that can be profiled by law enforcement hadn't hit the mainstream yet. So Stephane is arguably on the forefront of this type of thinking in France. Years later, a prosecutor will tell the New Yorker that, quote, he was one of the first People in France to say that serial killers weren't only in America.

[Unknown]

Sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So Stephane is dedicated to this budding obsession. He's known to record newscasts about murders, accidents and natural disasters, which he keeps in an evergreen VHS collection.

[Unknown]

Weird.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He also amasses pictures of corpses and cadavers that he likes to show off to guests.

[Unknown]

No, thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not in the least. But I do wanna remind the audience listening, especially the younger people. This was the time before YouTube, the time before the Internet. There was a kind of, like. Especially in the standup comedy world, it was seen as underground, but it was essentially like, here's the things people aren't talking about, or, here's the things that people. You know. That is taboo in some way.

[Unknown]

Well, who am I to say? I. I rented Faces of Death multiple times.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Unknown]

What was the blood on the asphalt? My high school boyfriend and I would just fucking sit and watch on a Saturday night. So I have nothing to say until.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was organized in this way where it's like. It's actually. You're not, like, the worst person in the world for having this curiosity about what is taboo and scary and horrifying in our world, like, as human beings. So I'm saying you're not. At the time, though society said you absolutely are. Absolutely.

[Unknown]

Definitely.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So Stephane has this unnerving habit of telling shocking and disturbing stories about murder in social settings.

[Unknown]

Stop it. Just. You can't do that. We've learned that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We've learned that by doing it.

[Unknown]

By doing it and starting a podcast about it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's our origin story, really, for sure. But. But, for example, Stephane liked to tell how his mother's first husband was decapitated by Nazis.

[Unknown]

Jesus.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So sometimes we're just trying to make a connection with other people quickly and efficiently, you know, and we don't understand.

[Unknown]

Social cues, and that's understandable.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And you're kind of looking for people who are like, this is horrifying. Are you also, like, compelled yet horrified by it?

[Unknown]

Are you my people?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are you my people still? I'm like, if I was at that dinner party, I would be like, this isn't what I'm. This isn't my interest. No, but it is Stefan's interest, and he has found it. And he figures soon he would like to figure out a way to combine this interest and obsession with his first love of cinema. And in the early 1990s, after Silence of the Lamb comes out and is like a. Basically a worldwide hit, it feels like this is the right time to produce a documentary. About serial killers. So Stephane reaches out to a film producer named Carol Carringer. So this will mostly be Carol's project, but she's excited to work with Stephane because he is becoming known in certain circles as a. Basically a budding expert in this topic. And they seem, the two of them seem in alignment on their tone of the movie. They do not wanna sensationalize serial killers. Instead, Carol says, quote, we wanted to know if over time, these killers had come to understand the harm they'd done if they question themselves.

[Unknown]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So during the production of this, the crew travels to the United States. First to Quantico, where they managed to land an interview with famous profiler John Douglas.

[Unknown]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then down to Florida, where they're given access to interview two convicted serial killers. I bet you can guess one of them.

[Unknown]

Ted Bundy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. Close, though. Who's the one that loved talking? Otis Tool, who basically confessed to every murder.

[Unknown]

We don't even know if he was a serial killer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Unknown]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The other is John Gerard Shaffer, who I literally just covered recently. He's the cop that actually started killing young ladies. Remember him?

[Unknown]

Yes, 100%.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So those are the two interviews that they get in Florida. Then they go to California to meet with Ed Kemper. So if you wanna hear me cover John Gerard Shaffer's story, that's episode 440. The title of that episode is I'm Michael Caine. Do you remember that?

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Odys Toole gets covered in George's story about the disappearance of Adam Walsh in episode 242, which is called Spoilerama. And Ed Kemper is covered in episode 39.

[Unknown]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Early episode 39, which is entitled Kind of Loco. So Ed Kemper specifically seems like the perfect interview subject for this film because they're interested in whether or not these murderers have come to question what they've done. And as Scott Sayre points out, quote, kemper was thought to have grown exceptionally introspective and regretful. He could provide the analysis that they wanted, but Carol's too scared to meet with these killers in person. Definitely never would want that.

[Unknown]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In my life. So she and Stephane write out the interview questions together. But when it comes time to go and meet in person, Stephane and a cameraman are the only ones that go into the prison.

[Unknown]

I also think these killers would talk and have a different experience with a woman that isn't as tragic. And I just wouldn't. I wouldn't go there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Absolutely.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So Carol gets the tapes and then listens back to these interviews. And when she does. She's horrified to learn that Stephane went completely off script and in the worst possible way. He was not remotely interested in whether or not these men had come to regret their actions. Instead, he asked them inappropriate, salacious questions that seemed designed to produce the most disgusting answers in the most detail possible.

[Unknown]

Oh, no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

For example, he repeatedly asks Ed Kemper about his, quote, fantasies of decapitating women. Carol also learns that Stephane brought several copies of a very violent book that Schaeffer wrote for him to autograph.

[Unknown]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So this documentary is eventually completed with the title An Investigation into Deviants.

[Unknown]

So he's like, fanboying over these serial killers?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, exactly. And Carol just never talks to him again.

[Unknown]

Good for her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She will later say, quote, I saw Stephane change when he had the killers in front of him. It was as if he was sitting across from his idols.

[Unknown]

Yikes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Ooh, that's so chilling. When she was listening. That's a movie itself.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, it is.

[Unknown]

Like her finding out this person. Oh, my God, yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That she's supposed to be, like, co.

[Unknown]

Producing a documentary with, traveling in a foreign country with. And yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So Carol cuts him out of her life. But this behavior does nothing to slow Stephane's rise. Shortly after, an investigation into deviance airs. And while he's still working in French film and tv, Stephane publishes his first book on serial killers, focusing on Jack the Ripper. He'll spend the next two decades publishing more than 70 true crime books.

[Unknown]

Too many books. Take a break.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So many books.

[Unknown]

Learn how to crochet.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're back.

[Unknown]

I'm just so quick. From now on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Smart.

[Unknown]

I'm so hard on crocheting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're like, the most positive. Crochet positive.

[Unknown]

I'm just gonna crochet when I'm podcasting for the rest of my life.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Stephane's becoming the go to expert on criminology in France. He isn't just writing or working on documentaries anymore. He is now giving talks to law enforcement officials, analyzing high profile cases on TV shows, and positioning himself as a serious authority on how serial killers operate.

[Unknown]

If he was a woman, it would be fine, you know, but it's. There's something. Because I clearly know where this is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Going for you personally. Yeah, I thought you were being sarcastic because it's like, this is such a great example, and it reminds me of the staircase, the blood spatter expert, where there's so much assumed, no one asks the question right. I'm sorry. How did you become an expert on something?

[Unknown]

Where did you get your education?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Where is this coming from?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And because now you're on TV telling.

[Unknown]

Experts how to do it, it's nefarious.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So at the time, Stephane seems to have the credentials to back it up. He claims to have personally interviewed dozens of the world's most notorious serial killers and name drops, some of the most notorious, like David Berkowitz and Charles Manson. And sometimes he shares harrowing stories from these encounters. For example, he says John Wayne Gacy once grabbed his ass during a prison interview. And that during his conversation with angel of Death killer Donald Harvey that you covered at Our live episode 110, our live show in Columbus, Ohio.

[Unknown]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, We've done all of them.

[Unknown]

We've done a lot of shows.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, we have. So Harvey murdered dozens of patients working as an orderly at a hospital. Stephan claims Harvey confessed to 17 additional murders when he talked to him. So he got him to confess. The way experienced detectives and investigators put on. He even claims the FBI respects his expertise so much, they invited him to an exclusive training program at Quantico, where he learned the ropes from John Douglas himself.

[Unknown]

He's confusing it for Silence of the Lambs.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's confusing everything, like, his whole life with everything he's ever read, which is very much like, oh, you and your little bookstore reading all this stuff, absorbing it, loving it, and to be part of it. Yeah. And then becoming part of it.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So for years, no one publicly questions any of this expertise. But there are people in Stephane's private life that don't believe anything he says. Friends will later tell writer Lauren Collins of the New Yorker that the Quantico training program, for example, quote, triggered rounds of knowing laughter among us because we all knew it was absolutely bogus. Yeah. Then there's also the issue with the story of Alain, the woman he claims he was dating in the US who he claims he found brutally murdered. For years, he's been privately sharing this story with friends and family. They are skeptical, but, of course, who's gonna question a story like that?

[Unknown]

Right? And there's no Internet to fucking look that shit up on anyways.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Exactly. So they're like, mm. But okay, Stefan had never shared it publicly until the year 2000. Yeah.

[Unknown]

See, a guy like that would have shared it publicly if it were true. Right. Like, he wants as much credit as he can.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Unknown]

There's no reason to keep it quiet if you're, like, that much of a narcissist.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. And there's no way that a narcissist who loves, like, serial killers had that experience.

[Unknown]

Right, right, right. Because without talking about it publicly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right, exactly. Without going wide and being like, now I wrote a book and now I did this thing. So now that he's a well known, by the year 2000, a well known expert in serial killers, he starts to claim it is Alain's murder that got him interested in this topic. And then he has a picture that he shows off of the two of them together. But he doesn't have his own story straight. In some media appearances, he'll call her Eileen, saying she was his wife, not his girlfriend. Later she'll be downgraded to quote, a very close friend. So this story also seems suspiciously one dimensional when he salaciously notes that he found her body, quote, mutilated, raped and practically decapitated, end quote. And that her killer was ultimately caught and currently sitting on death row in the United States. Other than those two facts, he doesn't have much to say about her as a person.

[Unknown]

Yikes. Got like the jink.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, right, Completely. Somehow, despite those discrepancies, the story only adds to his popularity and credibility in the field. It more or less explains his eccentricities and it turns him into a sympathetic character. Like, this is why he's so obsessed. Which he is stealing from Dominic Dunne.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But I mean, like it didn't happen in that order. But Dominic Dunn having to go through the murder of his own daughter and then write about that crime, you know, for major publications is. It's all these things where everything is like stolen here, stolen there, and why.

[Unknown]

Would anyone catch it? Like most, most like day to day people have not had an experience like that. So when they hear someone talk about it, they wouldn't be like, why would you make that up? It sounds awful.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, completely. Stephan even starts communicating with survivors of violent crime. Lauren Collins notes, quote, they saw him as a kindred survivor, someone who could be trusted to treat them with integrity because of his personal experience. But it turns out everything about Stephane Bergwin's life and his career is worth scrutinizing. And in a particularly troubling example of his questionable character, Stephan uses his reputation as the bereaved loved one of a victim to meet a woman named Dahina Tsai Dehina was just 14 years old when she was abducted and raped by a man who would then go on to murder seven women.

[Unknown]

Oh my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So she, as a 14 year old girl, escaped the clutches of a serial killer.

[Unknown]

Jesus.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Her trauma from this attack, of course, I'm sure was manifested in a million ways. But one of those ways was a very intense fear of spiders. Which somehow Stephane learns about her. He invites her to dinner at his house one night, and when she arrives, he begins showing her graphic crime scene photos. And then at one point, as a funny joke, puts a plastic spider on her shoulder.

[Unknown]

Dude. Fucking straight to jail, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Dahina will later say, quote, I was paralyzed and he was laughing. I think it gave him pleasure to mess with my mind.

[Unknown]

Ew.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So I don't know if we're dealing. I don't. You know, we always love to. I love to, for sure, analyze and, like, diagnose people.

[Unknown]

Totally.

[Georgia Hardstark]

To me, that is. Is sociopathic.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That is. Goes beyond.

[Unknown]

That's closer to psychopath. Yeah. Let's. If we're gonna diagnose someone, let's go all the way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's do our famous double side diagnosis of sociopath. Psychopath.

[Unknown]

Because they could get more mad at us for another diagnosis, you know, they're gonna be mad at us for one diagnosis. We might as well fucking go all the way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Slap them all on there.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And just being a jerk. So also just that horrible thing of. You have basically lured this woman there because she thinks that, like, there's. You're a famous person, you're an author, whoever. You're gonna spend time with this person and talk about what they've gone through.

[Unknown]

You're honored to be with this person. It's that thing of, like, that every fucking woman has ever experienced of, like, oh, shit, I trusted the wrong person. And now I'm in their home or whatever it is. It's like, oh, no. How do I get myself out of this?

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then when I am so paralyzed and horrified that you put a plastic spider.

[Unknown]

Yeah, you know my fucking vulnerabilities so well, because you're.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Then you just say, it's only monster.

[Unknown]

Right? Calm down.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Monster style.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So a few years later, Stephane publishes a graphic novel featuring Dahina's story of her assault.

[Unknown]

No. No, thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He does it without permission, without even warning, and she takes legal action. She actually gets the book pulled from the market, but the damage is done. Dehina will later say, quote, it was like being defiled a second time. But that's not the end of Stephane's troubling behavior. And I think this is maybe a step up. So he is a big boaster and a big bragger, and he starts bragging that he somehow managed to get ahold of John Gerard Shaffer's remains. What, his cremains, I guess.

[Unknown]

And that's the serial killer whose autograph he got, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Correct. So Basically, Stephan claims that after Schaeffer's execution that he somehow managed to get ahold of his remains.

[Unknown]

Like, UPS was like, here you go.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And you've got a hookup in the. What? Like, what are you talking about? Any jail that would put someone to death would not be like. And I guess we'll just be real free and easy.

[Unknown]

Right. You'd think it would have to be.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The closest of kin.

[Unknown]

Next of kin. Thank you. Right, okay. So he says he has them, and.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He starts teasing that he's going to give a small portion of those remains to anyone who buys his new book.

[Unknown]

Oh, dude, that's disgusting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So still and despite this, Stephane enjoys a mostly positive professional reputation. I think it also points to what a strange time, especially the late. The 90s and the late 90s were. That was when, like, John Wayne Gacy's paintings started getting really popular.

[Unknown]

This is what was going on before we started this podcast. I feel like, even up until then, where it's like, we are not into true crime the same way that other people are into true crime.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Unknown]

I think it just shows how. How different the obsession was. And I think what everyone assumed you and I were obsessed with, when really it was something totally different. And thankfully, this podcast has shown that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right? Thankfully. The whole trend of true crime kind of coming to the fore and basically being like, instead of following the story after the fact, it's much more. Why are we talking about this in the first place?

[Unknown]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So we're now it's 2019, and we are several decades into Stephane Bourgoin's career. And so 2019, someone makes a French true crime Facebook group, and someone on that Facebook group writes a post basically arguing that Stephane Berguin, while prolific, is a bad writer with questionable talent. And then they go further and they basically cast doubt on his entire background.

[Unknown]

Who is it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

We never find out. Although. And then I wrote Shirley. The arguments ensued. Right. Because that is what Facebook is for. Fighting with bots. And so from there, basically 30 skeptics begin a separate private chat to dig deeper. And this is the. Basically the beginning. This is where the Fourth Eye Corporation is born.

[Unknown]

Got it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because at first, these websleuths suspect plagiarism. So they start combing through Stefan's books to cross check them against English language sources. So they have to do this, like, in a different language. Cause the thinking which is so smart is the language barrier would make it easier for him to steal from other people's books. Totally. They also spend hours poring over Stephan's writing Reaching out to people who he claims he's collaborated with, contacting the prisons to verify his supposed jailhouse interviews and scouring the Internet for recordings of lectures and public appearances that he'd given throughout his career.

[Unknown]

Oh, man. Fact checking is a bitch.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, and there's. So it's decades of a career to fact check.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The Fourth Eye Corporation eventually concludes that Stephan isn't exactly copying and pasting other writers words. What he's doing is stealing their life stories and passing them off as his own life story. As one very disgusting example, he claimed he was once splattered with maggots and body parts while visiting at a crime scene as a helicopter lifted off nearby. There is a grain of truth to this story, but it's the account of a renowned South African forensic psychologist who it happened to. And that South African forensic psychologist is a woman named Mickey Pistorius. Mickey Pistorius is actually the aunt of Oscar Pistorius, the famed Olympian who murdered his girlfriend.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which is very odd. And those things are really connected.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The point is, it did not happen to Stephan. He only read about it. So members of the Fourth Eye Corporation are now looking for anyone who can confirm any of Stephan's jailhouse interviews with notorious murderers, which is what he's built his entire career on. They believe that Stephan, who claims to have interviewed around 80 murderers, has actually spoken with less than 10. Some of his details in those conversations also seem ripped off. For example, when he talks about meeting Charles Manson and David Berkowitz. The stories are suspiciously similar to John Douglas stories and what he wrote about in Mindhunter.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When members of the Fourth Eye Corporation reach out to John Douglas to confirm whether Stephant was trained at Quantico, Douglas replies, quote, bourgoin is delusional and an imposter.

[Unknown]

Guy was spicy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck, I love that guy.

[Unknown]

I know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it's good. But he's basically just like, no, that's all bullshit.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Then there's Stephane's story about the woman who was murdered, Helene or Eileen. He called them both names. Members of the 4th Eye Corporation pick up all the breadcrumbs that Stephan has left about her. Where she lived, when she was killed, the idea that her murderer is currently on death row. They scour records to find a victim and a convicted murder who fit all of the timeline, all of it, and they cannot find anyone. The Sleuths eventually conclude there is no Helene and or Eileen. As for the photo that Stephan has shared of the two of them together, the Sleuths believe that the Woman in the photo could be an adult film actress named Dominique St. Clair, who Stephan may have met while he was working in porn in Southern California. That suspicion has not been confirmed. One way or another. The Sleuths also find out that Stephan does not and has never had John Gerard Shaffer's remains in his possession. Weird brag.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not true. And weird like good.

[Unknown]

I'm glad that was a lie for sure, you know?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cause what a disturbing fact that would be if it wasn't.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So these are just a few of the things the Fourth Eye Corporation members end up digging up. There are way too many to mention today. As one Fourth Eye member will later tell the New Yorker, quote, as soon as we started looking, we found more and more inconsistencies. In any case, in 2020, the 4th Eye Corporation takes their findings to the public. They post YouTube videos that debunk Stephane's background and expertise bit by bit. They also reach out to different French media outlets, hoping to spread the word. As the New Yorker puts it, quote, stefan's story wasn't so much a house of cards as a total teardown.

[Unknown]

Yikes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So, obviously, this is a major PR crisis for him. He's quickly able to get the 4th Eye Corporation's video taken down by filing some sort of a copyright claim. But by now, the word is spreading and French reporters are starting to pick up on the story. About a month after the 4th Eye Corporation drops their bombshell report, and not long before the coronavirus shuts down the entire world, Stephan announces he's shutting down his Facebook page.

[Unknown]

I'm out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, forget it. Yeah, everyone's rude. He claims this is to, quote, devote himself to the most important project of my life, end quote. He does not specify what that project is. And then in his sign off, he suggests that there's a conspiracy against him. But he never directly comments on any of the allegations brought by the Fourth Eye Corporation. Before long, journalists are reaching out to give Stefan the chance to explain his side, but he keeps digging himself into a deeper hole. On one hand, Stefan acknowledges his flair for exaggeration and says, quote, I'm sorry that I lied and exaggerated things, but I never raped or killed anybody. End quote. Jesus.

[Unknown]

That's your fucking bar. That's the bar you're setting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it does. That is not relevant in this conversation, sir.

[Unknown]

Yeah, that's a big yikes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

At the same time, he starts changing the details around the Ella Eileen story yet again. He now claims she was a bartender in Florida named Susan Bickrest, who is indeed the Victim of serial killer Gerald Stano.

[Unknown]

Hmm.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But as Lauren Collins of the New Yorker will soon report, quote, the dates of Bickrest's murder and her killer's arrest didn't align with the Eileen story. And even a cursory glance at photographs of the two women reveal that except for both having blonde hair, they didn't look much alike.

[Unknown]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

End quote. This is his most egregious and disturbing lie. And the fact that he tried to cover it with a real woman's murder will be his final sociopathic Hail Mary. Moved now it's 2025. Stefan Bergwa has lost his credibility and lives a mostly quiet life in Western France. He has made some media appearances in the last few years. He still seems to be trying to explain himself. But as filmmaker Ben Selkow, who recently made a miniseries on this scandal, puts it, Stefan's story is a cautionary tale about living a lie in the Internet age. And of course, trying to deceive hard boiled murderinos. That's not what he actually said.

[Unknown]

Oh, that've been great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But hard boiled true crime fans, Internet sleuths, the like. Selchow says this quote, it's not hard to build something fake, but it's much more difficult to have it persist. Where Stephan is unique is the endurance of it. 40 plus plus years. It'd be harder in the modern era with the amount of research available at our fingertips, the amount of skepticism within the true crime community to have such an enduring con. You can rise, but that Icarus fall comes sooner, but certainly people are gonna try. We are in the era of scams, and that's not going anywhere. And that's the insane story of disgraced serial killer expert Stephane Borgwa.

[Unknown]

Never, like, heard a peep about it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Crazy, right?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So wild.

[Unknown]

It's like the motivation is just so confounding, you know?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, the kind of like, it'll be okay if I just say this one.

[Unknown]

Thing or I need to involve myself more. Or. Or it's not legitimate somehow. Or like. But like, why would you want to put yourself in those shoes?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Unknown]

It's. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fascinating.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Great job.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you. You're used to shopping online for everything from toothpaste and socks to a bow tie for your dog.

[Unknown]

But did you know that you can buy a brand new Hyundai online with.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hyundai's showroom on Amazon, you can add a car to your cart.

[Unknown]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

They've made buying a car as easy as possible. You can do most of it without even leaving your couch. And why not add some paper towels to your cart while you're at it?

[Unknown]

This first of its kind digital shopping destination makes it easier than ever to get the Hyundai you've always dreamed of. Before you add to cart, pick the model you want from a local dealer. You can filter by color and trim so you can get a car with all the features you're looking for. This is an entirely new and exciting approach to car buying, but the best part is the Amazon showroom is a shopping experience you already know and trust.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You'll see transparent pricing up front so there are no surprises.

[Unknown]

Run credit, secure financing and sign most of the paperwork right there online.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Then head to your local dealer to finalize the details and pick up your car. It's really that easy.

[Unknown]

Experience the future of car buying for yourself. Get all the details and discover the Hyundai car or SUV that's perfect for you. Visit HyundaiUSA.com or call 562-314-4603 for more details.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's H Y U-N-D A I USA.com or call 562.314-4603.

[Unknown]

Limited availability only through participating Hyundai dealers in select markets. This program is available for the purchase of new vehicles and is not currently available for leases.

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[Unknown]

Okay, so this story is totally different.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Great.

[Unknown]

As it should be. Yeah. This story is one from the kind of dark underbelly of British history. This is one that I think you're gonna like because it could totally be like a series that you'd watch.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Unknown]

A British. What are they called? Procedural.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Unknown]

It's got British stuff going on. How can I say that anymore? So this infamous heist captured the nation's attention and kept everyone guessing for 50 years. Oh, this is the story of the biggest rail heist of all time, the Great Train Robbery. So the main sources I use for this story are reporting from Smithsonian Magazine, the British National Archives, my favorite archive, and the British Transport Police archives and the Guardian. And the rest of the sources can be found in the show notes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I guess my favorite archives are the British Transport Police archives.

[Unknown]

They've gotta be up there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They're so. They're just, they're dated, they're timed like.

[Unknown]

If you're gonna be an archive junkie like you say you are, right. You've got to, you've got to put them on the top three for sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, it's. What do you want? Transport. It's there. British. It's there. Police stuff.

[Unknown]

Right there, right there. And so this is one of these stories from those archives.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Perfect.

[Unknown]

Here we are, it's 3am on August 8, 1963, and we're on a British mail train heading from Glasgow, Scotland, which we love, to London. The train is nearing the end of its 450 mile journey, which usually takes about five hours. And it's approaching a red signal or like a stop sign, stop signal. Near the village of Cheddington. Just darling. Which is about 30 miles north of London. So this train is called the traveling post office. It's not just carrying mail from one place to another. Most of the train's 12 cars are actually full of postal workers who are actively sorting letters and packages while in trans. So think like Santa's workshop, but postman and fucking mail.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, this is. The efficiency of this idea is amazing.

[Unknown]

Don't do it in the warehouse and then put it on the train. Do it on the fucking train.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do it on the train. Fuck the warehouse mail, it just keeps coming. It's always gonna be there. Were they always on the train or they're one special trip?

[Unknown]

No, this was a normal thing. This is like how this train, the mail train worked for sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So there could be a person that starts working at the post office that's like, I'm obsessed with trains. And it's like, guess what?

[Unknown]

You get best of both worlds, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Unknown]

Okay. Except for this. This night, it's not a good night. So they're sorting. They're actively sorting letters and packages while in transit. And at the very front of the train, there's one additional car. So there's 12 cars and there's one additional car holding high value cargo. Most of this cargo is fucking stone cold cash. On an ordinary day, it would be carrying around like £300,000, which would be worth about. Let me tell you. I'll tell you this one and then you can guess the other ones based on this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay?

[Unknown]

So £300,000 normally, which in today's money and dollars would be 8 million.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, shit.

[Unknown]

So a lot of fucking money.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A ton of money.

[Unknown]

But this is the first journey following a bank holiday, One of those British fucking bank holidays, which just means it was closed the day before. So a lot more cash has built up. This particular train is carrying about two and a half million pounds, which would.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Be worth fucking $30 million.

[Unknown]

71 million.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fucking A.

[Unknown]

In today's US dollars. Okay, probably not next month's US dollars or next year's US dollars.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Look, we can't look to the future anymore, only the past. And only in England.

[Unknown]

So we do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's called escaping.

[Unknown]

And this cash belongs to several large banks. Blah, blah, blah. So the red signal at Cheddington is unexpected. Cause it's supposed to. There is a, like, you know, a signal. Red and green, like go or don't go, obviously. And it's usually supposed to be green, but the train sees that it's red. And so it slows and comes to a stop. And the train's co Engineer, a man named David Whitby hops out to see what's going on. Why is it red? When he gets to the signal, he sees that, like a. Just a regular old glove is actually covering the green light, and the red light is hooked to an external battery, making it light up when it otherwise shouldn't. Right. Still doesn't totally understand what he's seeing. And so he heads over to a call box to call the rail line to ask what's going on. And that's when he sees the lines to this phone box have been cut. And then someone grabs him from behind.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh. And the heist begins.

[Unknown]

The heist is on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Unknown]

So the person who grabs him says, quote, if you shout, I will kill you. And then several other men materialize, all wearing knit masks. They walk David back to the front of the train and reboard with him. And the train's engineer, a man named Jack Mills, actually tries to put up a fight, which, like, it's not your money, bro. Don't put up a fight. But we know that now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What year was that? Not that again. Not that.

[Unknown]

His fault. 1963. 63.

[Georgia Hardstark]

63. Okay.

[Unknown]

So he tries to put up a fight, and then one of the thieves, and this was totally unplanned, and they did not have guns at all. Like, they were not there to shoot the place up or kill anyone. One of the thieves then brutally beats him. Jack Mills, the weapon he uses is sometimes described as a wood cudgel, sometimes as a rubber kosh, and sometimes as an iron crowbar, which is kind of like a club, like, weapon. But regardless, Jack suffers a head injury. And once he's subdued, the group of thieves bind the two engineers together, like, kind of warning them, like, stop fighting. Like, some of these people are crazy. And it turns out there's 15 hijackers in total. Oh, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Unknown]

So, like, one of them's got to be a little off, a little mad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, Maybe. Seen some shit. Been around the bend.

[Unknown]

Yeah. So the thieves then detach the first two cars, which is the high yield car, and the engine from the back 10 cars, where there are people sorting mail. They don't even know what's happening. And the plan is to get these two cars kind of down the line, but up front. The thieves are having trouble operating the train and getting these two cars to fucking move as they're supposed to. One of the robbers had apparently practiced on an engine, a train engine, when it was a different engine. So he. It's like different bottle. Bottle rocket. It's like I've never tried to pick this lock before. And it's like, well, yeah, it's a fucking lock.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right?

[Unknown]

You said you could pick locks.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. You have to be generally good at, like, hot wiring things.

[Unknown]

Yeah. And more than one thing, not just your one kind. Right. So the thieves actually have to revive poor Jack Mills who had just been fucking beaten unconscious and tied up. And they're like, hey, bro, sorry about that. Can you show us how to drive this train?

[Georgia Hardstark]

This poor dude was Jack Mills. Like, go to hell.

[Unknown]

No, I mean, I think he fucking figured out not to fight with them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And then in the meantime, other members of the group start working on entering the secure high value car. So the high value package car is secured by iron doors, which, once shut and locked, can only be opened from the inside. And the cargo in the cars is being guarded by four men, but they're unarmed. The iron door is the only security precaution. And. But the thieves are able to use these fucking tools, we don't know exactly, to breach the doors and open the cars.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So. Sorry. They just had four guys in there, like, warning people against, like, you don't want to be in here.

[Unknown]

Yeah, but they didn't do guns back then, you know, nobody did. And I know what they do there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Some judo expert. Like, can't they get anybody that's gonna. Yeah, if they don't use weapons. I'm just saying, why have guys in there then? Just like, Let them go work on.

[Unknown]

Some other part of the car. Give them some pepper spray or something. At least.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Something.

[Unknown]

Yeah. So exactly, you're like, why aren't these secured better? And actually, by 1963, when this happens, some of these high value mail cars had been equipped with alarms, but the ones on this particular train are older and don't have that technology. And that is one of the many clues that will ultimately point to the thieves having had some kind of inside help from someone in the postal service.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Unknown]

So after breaching the door, three of the thieves come into the car. Two holding clubs, one's holding an axe, which is like, I wouldn't jujitsu at a guy with an axe.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

No, you know, it's too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What? Ax as a. As a weapon. Hand to hand is too wild.

[Unknown]

Yeah, that's not a fair fight. They're followed by more men, all of them wearing masks. And they immediately subdue the four guards and push them to the back of the car. And while this is happening, other thieves are still at the engine. They get the train moving and they move it About a mile further down the line, where their getaway vehicles are parked. So all of this happens really quickly, like within 10 minutes. And once they stop the train again, the thieves then form a human chain, quickly unloading 120 sacks of cash from the car to the waiting Land Rovers, their getaway cars. Then the masked thieves tell the workers in the car to sit and wait for 30 minutes before calling the police. Then they drive off into the night. At the time, those like 15ish thieves had no idea how much cash was in the bag. It's only when the dust settles and the investigation begins that it becomes clear that the total that they had stolen had been about 2.5 million pounds, which would be worth about 71 million in today's money.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Unknown]

So the fact that the thieves told the trained personnel to wait 30 minutes actually winds up being another clue that the investigators can use. The case is assigned mainly to Scotland Yard's Flying Squad. They're named because they fly between London's boroughs to solve major crimes. And since we're talking about fucking episodes we've covered shit on before. Sure. So I talked about the Flying squad in episode 446. I'm Michael Caine when I covered the Hatton Garden jewel heist that happened decades later.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just a legendary episode on this podcast.

[Unknown]

Yeah. So lots of heists, lots of Michael Caine.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The most Michael Caine you could get in a podcast.

[Unknown]

What more do you need? So as soon as the Flying Squad are called to the scene, they are like, well, if they told him to wait 30 minutes, only 30 minutes, that means their fucking hideout is probably close, close by. So they knew they'd be off the roads in about 30 minutes. So the press learns about this story very early on. The brazenness of this heist causes a huge sensation. And remember that this is post war recession era England. So people are actually like cheering them on and kind of excited. It also reminds them of an old school, like gangster caper from the 1920s, you know, so I think people are like, good for them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, go take that money.

[Unknown]

Get that money.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Redistribute that money, please.

[Unknown]

Steal the money from the banks they stole from us. We don't care. Okay, right, so on August 13, five days after the heist, the investigators get a break when a farmer calls to report suspicious activity at the farm next door, about 30 minutes from the train in Buckinghamshire, England. He's seen people coming and going, which is weird because the farm's supposed to be put up for sale, so you gotta never underestimate a nosy neighbor, like, they'll talk.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Especially like country stuff where you, you kind of need to keep an eye out because there's like a quarter of a mile between you and anywhere it's.

[Unknown]

Better to hide in an apartment block, it seems like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right.

[Unknown]

Where like people mind their own fucking business.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right.

[Unknown]

And people come in and out every day and you'll never see them again.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They see masks all the time.

[Unknown]

That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or if you're wearing a ski mask, why don't you just go to a ski resort and hide there, man?

[Unknown]

The pandemic was great for people doing heists, probably. Right. It was great for people who had just gotten Botox and needed to cover their bruises. I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't know from experience, but I'll tell you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, you're not pulling that exact example for any specific reason.

[Unknown]

So when police arrive at the farmhouse, it's deserted, but there are signs that people have been there very recently and left it in a hurry. Outside the house, police find many empty mail bags next to a three foot hole and shovel. And they also find the getaway Land Rovers parked on the property. So like they were tipped off and fucking ran. What?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sorry, just the, no, the visual, like so they went and put all their stuff in a hole and then the cops are coming so they went and dug it back out of the hole.

[Unknown]

Yeah, they're just like, empty these bags quick. Oh shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hurry up.

[Unknown]

Inside the house, police find more clues. It looks like the group was gonna stay there for a while. That's what their plan was. And there's an old school photo of like, you know when you see like what people buy at the grocery store in fucking England in a. Like what families spend. And it shows you like they have that of this and I love it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So there's some cans of beans for breakfast. Yeah, they love eat beans. They love beans. Toast. So they need some bread.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They need sausages.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just to blinks and links. They can drape them all around the kitchen.

[Unknown]

Right. And here's a part of that. So the fridge and the pantry are totally stocked and most of the surfaces have been wiped clean of fingerprints.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Smart.

[Unknown]

They found a fingerprint on one thing you didn't name because I don't think.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A potato.

[Unknown]

No, not a potato. I think British people would be embarrassed about this. A bottle of ketchup. Oh, British people don't like ketchup. Or do they only not like ketchup on fries.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, they don't. They don't normally eat ketchup or. They didn't traditionally.

[Unknown]

Ketchup's embarrassing that you got caught via a condiment that, like. Is it. I don't know. I just. It stuck out to me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It should have been malt vinegar.

[Unknown]

Yes. It was like something like, you know, brown gravy or something like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's more them.

[Unknown]

Yeah. It's like, of course ketchup fucking told on you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. Like, loudmouth American ketchup was like, we've.

[Unknown]

Never liked you, and here you are.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What about over here?

[Unknown]

Fucking snitch.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But imagine how glorious it would have been if there was just, like, one thumbprint on a potato and they found it.

[Unknown]

Can you thumbprint a potato or can you fingerprint a potato?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It would implicate all the other people that either touched, shopped for, or farmed.

[Unknown]

That potato and the potato. Because it's got kind of a thumbprinty. Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And a personality.

[Unknown]

Stop it. The other fingerprint they found is from a game of Monopoly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Unknown]

And they think they were playing the Monopoly with real money. The real money they had stolen. Just like, classic.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's classic thieves, I'm so sorry to say. That's a great celebration of your heist.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Now we play Monopoly with real money.

[Unknown]

Totally. Yeah, totally. So these fingerprints lead police immediately to a suspect named Roger Cordry. He had just rented an apartment in Bournemouth, a town on the southern coast of England. And when he's arrested, police realize that he's hiding a car key in his rectum.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh.

[Unknown]

Oh, no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, hey.

[Unknown]

The key unlocks a car that holds his share of the cash. It's just like. Like, nobody gets away. Like, this is an immediate. I hate to tell you this, like, some people have some luck here and there, and I'm gonna tell you all about them, but, like, there's just an immediate.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's a key shit show.

[Unknown]

Yeah, exactly. And actually, this relatively small amount of money is most of what winds up being recovered from the heist. So actually, not a lot of money is ever recovered.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, well, then it is successful in some ways.

[Unknown]

They all split it up. Who knows what? This guy Roger doesn't give anyone away. He does not snitch. I mean, if you're gonna put a fucking key in your rectum, you're not a snitcher.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You are ready to get the job done for the job at hand. Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown]

However, from the fingerprints and knowing who works with who, Police quickly arrest 11 other people. When they piece everything together, they learn that the mastermind of a whole robbery is a career criminal named Bruce Reynolds. And we're to assume that they're all career criminals. So fine. And Bruce is fucking in the wind. No one can find him. He seemingly left the country. However, most, although not all of the thieves are charged, convicted and sentenced, mostly for about 30 years while police are still working to track him and two others down. Among those who are caught in this initial sweep is a man named Charlie Wilson. So after being sentenced In April of 1964 to 30 years, he escapes prison. And this was a big sentence back then for them, especially because they didn't use guns. So like I think they were an example. Like you can't for sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well. Cause it's post office, so you can't. That's a federal, I'm assuming. Here it is. So over there it probably is.

[Unknown]

It's like a tough on crime kind of a thing, right? Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And don't think that you're gonna get your friends together and start heisting because we'll really make your life hell.

[Unknown]

But he escapes from prison when a gang of three men break into the prison and get him out. There's a couple prison breaks going on outside.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In is a pretty badass prison.

[Unknown]

Has to be easier than breaking out, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know. I mean, yeah, I guess.

[Unknown]

Well, Charlie escapes to Canada with his family, is recaptured four years later because his poor wife like finally calls her parents at home because she probably misses them, but guess whose phone is tapped?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, those parents.

[Unknown]

Like that sucks. You can never call your parents again.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, that does suck. And it's also such good policing on.

[Unknown]

Their part on Scotland Yards part.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you. Scotland Yards part like Liverpool's. What's it called? Because. Yeah. And also for the. So four years later, there's still a tap.

[Unknown]

Yeah. I wonder when. Yeah, you gotta wonder.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It feels like here they're always like, sorry, we did it for 48 hours.

[Unknown]

But so they're able to track Charlie Wilson down, He's put back in prison and eventually he's released. He moves to Costa del Sol in Spain, which is popular with British criminals because of a lapsed extradition treaty. And eventually he's killed there by a hitman in 1990.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God.

[Unknown]

So let's get a movie about his life, please.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I feel like the movie is called Sexy Beast.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Even though it might not specifically be. That's such a good movie.

[Unknown]

Well, Charlie isn't the only member of the gang to escape from prison. A year later In July of 1919 65, a man named Ronnie Biggs Scales a prison wall and manages to escape basically on the back of a garbage removal van. And this guy, the more I read about him, the more fascinating he is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ronnie Biggs.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Ronnie Biggs didn't give a fuck. Yeah. There's a photo of him in his wheelchair at the funeral for one of these guys as an old man giving the, like, two finger. Fuck you. He's an old man. He looks like he's from the Exorcist and he's giving a fucking middle finger. A British middle finger.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fight like hell. Ronnie Biggs.

[Unknown]

He's good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fight like hell.

[Unknown]

So he, once he escapes, uses some of his money that he had made from the heist to get plastic surgery to change his face.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Amazing.

[Unknown]

Then he. I know. He travels all over and then he ends up in Brazil where he gets married and to, like, this young stripper and eventually has a son. And in Brazil, this makes him exempt from extradition.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Unknown]

But I think they were actually in love. Cause she fought for him the rest of his life.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I believe it. They sound like just like a firecracker couple.

[Unknown]

Okay. In 1978, he does the vocals for a Sex Pistol song called no One Is Innocent. However, I have to say that Johnny and Sid had left Sex Pistols by then. So, like, how. How was Sex? You know? And it also sounds like your British dad trying to sing a Sex Pistol song at karaoke. It's not you. It's fine, but it's not.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. What producer thought that concept was gonna really get it, get him a hit?

[Unknown]

But I think the point was, like, he was a celebrity, like, everywhere.

[Georgia Hardstark]

People knew people loved him. Yeah.

[Unknown]

So in 1981, a British group of ex soldiers tried to bring him back to the uk, but because of this legal loophole, he's able to return to Brazil. He lives fairly openly like a celebrity until 2001. And then he returns to the UK. He's an old man. He's resentenced. He serves time until he's clearly about to die. And he's released and dies in 2013 at the age of 84 without ever showing remorse.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Unknown]

Hence the British fuck you. He just didn't give a fuck.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And sorry, do we think that his cut of the money is somewhere.

[Unknown]

He might have spent it all and that's why he came back to the uk? I don't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He was like, yeah, he ran out and I had my fun.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I don't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Know.

[Unknown]

I don't know. So I had mentioned this guy, Bruce Reynolds, who had just taken off and was in the wind. He spends the first six months after the heist moving quietly around in England, waiting to get a fake passport. Then he flees to Mexico, where his wife and son join him. And they live in Mexico and then Canada until 1968. And then their money runs out and so they return to the UK. Bruce is arrested in 1968 and is sentenced to 25 years in prison. Bruce's this is just a rando like note, like you had in yours. Bruce's son Nick is a member of the band Alabama 3, who wrote the song Woke up this Morning, which is the theme song for the Sopranos. Oh, what? Just randomly, that's a great piece of trivia. Oh, my God. That's trivia night at your local pub that we just fucking gave you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, that's right.

[Unknown]

So you owe us a pint.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And also, that's an intense trivia night. That's the deepest deep cut where it's.

[Unknown]

Like someone knows that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, first of all, do you know Ronnie Biggs?

[Unknown]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Unknown]

Someone on your team. That's why you have to have a diverse team.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right.

[Unknown]

People you wouldn't hang out with in normal life.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yep.

[Unknown]

Because they know weird shit and they won't stop talking about it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right.

[Unknown]

About music. That guy will get you a free pitcher.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But also, just like Valor. True Pub Valor.

[Unknown]

Yeah. And you appreciate it. You're cool. Yeah. So years later, Bruce Reynolds will say that he was motivated, of course, by the money, but also he wanted to do something big and stunning. And he'd been inspired by the 1950 robbery of a Brinks truck in Boston. And he said, quote, we wanted to do something as spectacular as that. We wanted to draw our line in the sand. It's the same madness, I suppose, that drives people to bivouac on the north face of the Eiger, end quote. Which basically means set up camp on a fucking mountain that you just like to like. It's adrenaline. It's an adrenaline rush.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Unknown]

But instead you're getting money instead of frostbite.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yep.

[Unknown]

I know. What I would fucking pick.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know for sure.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wait, which one? Frostbite?

[Unknown]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Absolutely not. Exactly. I also.

[Unknown]

I don't need to lose a toe. Have you seen these feet? They're my fucking money maker.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All that. That's your safety net right there.

[Unknown]

Exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But also, it's that idea, I think, because there is a romance to it, and there is that kind of like, you know, they didn't have guns. They weren't there to hurt people.

[Unknown]

They weren't supposed, no one was supposed to get hurt.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was. We've all seen the movie a thousand times. We're just like, we're gonna do one last one. We're gonna get that money. We're gonna, we're gonna get our cut. Because we know that in life, it's not like we're gonna go back to school and get a new job and.

[Unknown]

No more small time, you know, street criminal. Let's fucking do something big and get it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So eventually, Bruce Reynolds and a couple of the other crew members who had initially evaded capture are caught and sentenced. So. So in the decades following the Great Train Robbery, there is one enduring mystery, which is who was the person on the inside who helped the gang know which train to strike? Because of that, that thing that. The bank holiday, having twice as much money as it was supposed to the next day, where to strike it and how like. And you know, also the. The train that didn't have alarms on it like they had, there was an insider for sure. And this person only ever communicated with three members of the gang, which is smart. All of them who claimed not to know his name, and everyone referred to him either as the Ulsterman or the Irishman. Ulster basically means Northern Ireland.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

You knew that. You're so Irish.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I knew that. But then when I went to call Derry Derry, I looked at the map, said Londonderry, and everyone.

[Unknown]

You lost your Irish passport.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Every. Anything that I've ever had. And I think about it constantly. And when I see clips of the show Derry Girls, it makes me go, because it's happening again. It's all happening again.

[Unknown]

Yeah, no, I feel it. I feel you. But not this time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nope. It's all different now. 2025, baby.

[Unknown]

However, it's also a term some Irish people take issue with. So.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like Osterman.

[Unknown]

So, yeah, fair warning, I'm Jewish. Leave me alone. Okay. It's not until 2014 that the identity of this insider is ever revealed. So it's at this point that another of the gang member, a man named Gordon Goody, who had served his sentence, he was like off the grid. He would not talk to people. He's living a quiet life in Spain, the countryside with his wife and five dogs. He's like, I don't want to talk about this anymore. But he comes forward eventually in a documentary called A Tale of Two Thieves. So this guy Gordon Goody says that the insider who helped them, basically he gives the documentary filmmakers as much information as he has and they're able to track down this person. The only information he has is because when he was one of the three thieves going to meet this insider to get information from him. And they had met in Kensington Garden in London. It was a warm day, and this insider went to go get everyone ice creams, which is, like, so darling, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Unknown]

But he dropped his glasses case. And Gordon Goody said when he picked them up, he saw the name of the insider in the glasses and always remembered it. And so the documentary makers hired two private investigators to search through, like, who had worked at the post office back then, you know, who had that name. And the name was Patrick McKenna and who looked like what Gordon Goody remembered. And so they were able to find this guy named Patrick McKenna, who had been 43 at the time, who was older than most of the crew. He did. He wasn't on the train. He wasn't one of the robbers. He just gave them information for money. And by the time Gordon Goody comes forward, he's like, Patrick McKenna had already died. So he doesn't, like, feel terrible about it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Unknown]

So when the documentary filmmakers reveal this to Patrick McKenna's family, they are flabbergasted. And also, like, well, he wasn't. He didn't have money. He wasn't a rich man. He was a quiet, churchgoing man. He like, simple life. He didn't even have a car. And he worked at the post office until his retirement. And so they're like, well, maybe he felt guilty and donated the money to the Catholic Church. Maybe the money got stolen from him. Like, that is a mystery of, like, what was Patrick McKenna's motivation and what happened to the money.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Unknown]

She's like, ugh. To be his grandchild.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know.

[Unknown]

Tell me everything, because that's what I.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Think of all these heists where it's like, the people that get away or you never hear about it again. It just means that there's, like, some apartment somewhere that doesn't know it has on the. Like, on the East End of London, or they know fully. And it's just like, we don't spend this in any weird, showy way. It's just like you just pull down a gold bar, you bring it in, or you get it changed out, and you very evenly and calmly, don't be flashy.

[Unknown]

Flashy's so obvious, especially when you, like, live. You know, you're a post office person, and then suddenly you're driving a Mustang. Like, come on, guy, just break it down.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You can get that in 20 years. You can't get. Can't get it in five.

[Unknown]

No. Now the other mystery is who of the 15 person gang beat the train engineer Jack Mills. Later, most of the thieves will say that they didn't agree with the decision to beat him so brutally. It was not in the plan at all. And they very much regret it. Jack Mills survives his injuries and mostly physically recovers, but he's clearly traumatized. And then he sadly dies of leukemia in 1970. It's just like tragedy after tragedy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And Gordon Goody doesn't snitch on the guy, but basically by process of elimination, you're able to tell which of the thieves beat him. But it's nobody that I've talked about today. He says that Jack Mills getting hurt was his biggest regret from the heist. And that those he's been in touch with from the heist in the decades since feel the same. He says, quote the fact that that's the thing I regret. Nobody was going to get hurt. We were gentlemen robbers. When Jack Mills fell and hit his head, we all looked out for him. Which is like, did he hit his head or did he get hit in the head?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, right. Did he get his head beaten?

[Unknown]

Charlie bandaged it up for him and Tony gave him a cigarette and sat with him. We knew. It changed everything. I was choked. Choked. End quote.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh.

[Unknown]

But other than that, Goody has no regrets. And that is the story of the biggest rail heist of all time. The Great Train Robbery.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They got away with it.

[Unknown]

Ooh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I like that story a lot.

[Unknown]

Who would you cast in it? We already know. I mean, pie in the sky.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cause it feels like they were. If the one guy was 43 and he was the oldest.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Then we get to go into a full. Is Paul Mescal one of the leading people?

[Unknown]

We got Irish and English people. So like we can kind of take from very Keanu Kelan, baby. What's his name?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Keegan.

[Unknown]

Oh, you know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Who'd be Keoghan, I think.

[Unknown]

Keoghan. Yeah, something like that. Who'd be good is Andrew Garfield. No. You know, the hot priest. Andrew Scott.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Unknown]

Let's put him anywhere. I don't care where. Let him. Let him be on the Flying Squad. Like that would be hot.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let him be the 43 year old. That's like the voice of reason. All the boys, you got the youngsters.

[Unknown]

Except he drops his sunglasses case, you know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Unknown]

Can you imagine? I'm gonna go get some ice creams.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's the type to get ice creams. And he's the type that actually writes his name in the sunglass case, like that little patch of white where it's like, if found, please return shit. And he's like, I might be a major criminal, but I'm also kind of a nerd, so go ahead and return these glasses.

[Unknown]

It shows what a mastermind he is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. That's right. Meanwhile, I won't put my name on the suitcase tag that you absolutely need if you want to get that suitcase returned when the airline has lost your suitcase.

[Unknown]

Or you could put an airtag in your suitcase. Ooh. And keep track of that shit yourself.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, that's true, right? I don't know.

[Unknown]

Listen, we're giving you all kinds of tips. We're telling you how not to get scammed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're trying to teach you how to get away with a great train robbery.

[Unknown]

And we wish you would.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And we wish you a Merry Christmas.

[Unknown]

Stay sexy and don't get murdered. Goodbye. What? Elvis? Do you want a cookie?

[Georgia Hardstark]

This has been an exactly right production.

[Unknown]

Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Our managing producer is Hannah Kyle Creighton.

[Unknown]

Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This episode was mixed by Liana Squillace.

[Unknown]

Our researchers are Maren McClashan and Ali Elkin.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Email your hometowns to my favorite merch.

[Unknown]

Murdermail.Com follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at my favorite murder. Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did you know that now you can buy a Hyundai on Amazon?

[Unknown]

The same place where you order yoga mats, a toothbrush, and pretty much everything else, all from the comfort of your home.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just locate a nearby dealer, pick your color, your options, check the price, and with a few dotting of some I's and crossing of some t's, voila.

[Unknown]

Your Hyundai is ready for pickup. It's that easy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Visit HyundaiUSA.com for more details. Limited availability pickup through a participating Hyundai dealer in select markets.

[Unknown]

That's H Y U N d a I USA.com Goodbye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Unknown]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Unknown]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

Intuit QuickBooks your way to Money Money movement services are provided by Intuit Payments, Inc. Licensed as a money transmitter by the.

[Unknown]

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