470 - Accept No Dare

Summary

Podcast Summary: My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Episode 470: "Accept No Dare"
Release Date: March 6, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 470 of My Favorite Murder titled "Accept No Dare," hosts Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark delve into two compelling stories: the intriguing case of John Darwin's staged disappearance and the impactful life of 19th-century British activist Josephine Butler. This episode seamlessly weaves true crime with historical activism, offering listeners a rich tapestry of deception, legal intrigue, and pioneering women's rights advocacy.

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Section 1: The John Darwin Disappearance ("Canoe Man")

Overview of the Case

Karen and Georgia recount the bizarre and captivating story of John Darwin, a British man who faked his death in a canoeing accident to collect life insurance money. This case, often referred to as the "Canoe Man" saga, became a sensational tabloid hit and remains one of the most notorious insurance fraud cases in the UK.

Key Events and Deception

• The Disappearance (March 22, 2002): John Darwin sets out in his red canoe for a morning paddle but never returns. Initial searches are extensive but futile. [10:00]

  Georgia: "On March 22, 2002, John sets out in his red kayak, paddling out to sea…"

• Search and Rescue Operation: Multiple rescue teams search a 62 square mile area, highlighting the severity and public concern of his disappearance. Despite calm weather conditions, no sign of John or his canoe is found until his paddle is discovered weeks later. [12:50]

  Karen: "Five crews from the Royal National Lifeboat Institution, two boats from the Coast Guard…"

• The Reveal: In December 2007, John Darwin reappears at a police station claiming amnesia, prompting immediate skepticism. An online sleuth uncovers a recent photo of John and his wife from Panama, revealing the ruse. His arrest for fraud follows swiftly. [33:00]

  Georgia: "A woman decides to Google something along the lines of John, Ann, and Panama…"

Legal Consequences and Family Impact

John admits to his scheme, receiving a six-year prison sentence, while his wife Anne receives a longer sentence despite her limited involvement. Their two sons are left devastated, having believed their father was dead for five years. Post-incarceration, John emigrates to the Philippines and remarries, while Anne reconciles with her sons and authors a book detailing the ordeal. [35:00]

Karen: "Both John and Anne have since been released from prison and have gotten divorced."

Notable Quotes

• Karen Kilgariff (12:02): "You can't go around and learn things that aren't out in the world."

• Georgia Hardstark (37:02): "That's a very decent move."

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Section 2: Women's History Month - The Story of Josephine Butler

Introduction to Josephine Butler

The episode transitions to celebrate Women's History Month by spotlighting Josephine Butler, a 19th-century British activist renowned for her relentless fight against the Contagious Diseases Acts and her advocacy for women's rights, particularly sex workers.

Early Life and Marriage

Born in 1828 in Northumberland to a progressive family, Josephine Butler married George Butler, a classics professor, at 23. Their partnership was marked by mutual respect and shared progressive ideals, setting the foundation for her future activism. [38:34]

Karen: "In 1852, when Josephine is 23, she marries a classics professor at Durham College named George Butler."

Advocacy for Sex Workers and Women's Rights

• Confronting Double Standards: At Oxford University, Josephine witnesses the rampant hypocrisy where men exploit sex workers without facing repercussions, while women are harshly penalized. Disturbed by these injustices, she befriends sex workers, offering them support and challenging societal norms. [45:03]

  Georgia: "So Josephine starts visiting these women not to try to reform them or to chastise them, but to befriend them."

• Fight Against the Contagious Diseases Acts: In 1869, Butler leads the campaign against these discriminatory laws that allowed forced medical examinations of suspected sex workers. Through the Ladies National Association for the Repeal of the Contagious Diseases Acts (LNA), she rallies support, gathers influential signatures (including Florence Nightingale), and publicly condemns the acts as "steal, rape." [56:00]

  Karen: "Ultimately, the law is formally repealed within a few years. By this point, the age of consent is also raised to 13 years old."

• Impact and Legacy: Butler's efforts culminate in significant legal reforms, including raising the age of consent and prohibiting the procurement of girls for sex work. Despite facing immense opposition and societal backlash, her unwavering commitment paves the way for future women's rights movements. [62:04]

  Georgia: "Josephine Butler stands as a great example of not only a true Christian, but an undeniable girl's girl."

Notable Quotes

• Josephine Butler (from her book): "Our long years of labor and conflict on behalf of this just cause ought not to be forgotten." [69:43]

• Karen Kilgariff (47:15): "So here's the story of this teenage girl…"

Challenges and Controversies

Despite her achievements, Butler struggled with backlash from contemporaries who viewed her outspoken stance against the Contagious Diseases Acts as morally reprehensible. Her association with Christianity also affected her legacy among later feminist movements that sought to distance themselves from organized religion. [68:39]

Georgia: "At the end of the day, Josephine Butler stands as a great example…"

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Conclusion

Episode 470 of My Favorite Murder masterfully intertwines the sensational tale of John Darwin's fraudulent disappearance with the inspiring legacy of Josephine Butler's fight for women's rights. Through engaging narration, insightful commentary, and impactful quotes, Karen and Georgia illuminate the complexities of deception, justice, and activism, offering listeners both a gripping true crime story and a historical lesson in resilience and advocacy.

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Notable Quotes Summary

• Karen Kilgariff (12:02): "You can't go around and learn things that aren't out in the world."

• Georgia Hardstark (37:02): "That's a very decent move."

• Karen Kilgariff (47:15): "So here's the story of this teenage girl…"

• Josephine Butler (from her book, 69:43): "Our long years of labor and conflict on behalf of this just cause ought not to be forgotten."

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Key Takeaways

• John Darwin's Case: Highlights the lengths to which individuals may go to escape financial burdens, exposing flaws in the insurance and legal systems.

• Josephine Butler's Advocacy: Exemplifies early feminist efforts to dismantle systemic misogyny, particularly in the realm of public health and legal rights.

• Intersection of True Crime and History: The episode demonstrates how true crime stories can be interwoven with historical narratives to provide deeper societal insights.

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Stay tuned for more riveting stories and in-depth analyses in future episodes of My Favorite Murder. Remember, as Karen and Georgia always say, "Stay sexy and don't get murdered."

Transcript

[Karen Kilgariff]

My favorite.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Hello, hello and welcome to My Favorite Murder. That's Georgia Hartstark, that's Karen Kilgariff, and.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We'Re here to podcast for you women and women lovers.

[Georgia Hartstark]

That's right, it's Women's History Month. Can you. Do we have any history?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, we haven't done much. We've just been hanging out, brushing our.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Hair, waiting to get our rights taken away a little more.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, guys, we have these pins and they're for sale and we just wanted you to see them in our hands because we love them very much.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Yeah, they're like gonna let us like play with our merch now, which is so fun. They let us touch it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So you could get a 12 foot skeleton pin if you would like to. With articulated arms and legs and. Yeah, I was gonna say hips, but it's just the arms and legs or.

[Georgia Hartstark]

This little spinner guy. And like every morning when you wake up, you can spin it and see. Is today. Stay Sexy, don't get murdered. Is today. Here's the thing. Fuck everyone. Is today. This is terrible. Keep going. Or is today Stay out of the forest?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like a Wheel of Fortune slash advice thing.

[Georgia Hartstark]

How cute is that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, that's a good gift for the people who know. Ooh, look how cute it looks on your.

[Georgia Hartstark]

I put that on my leather jacket.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'd put this on this.

[Georgia Hartstark]

That looks good there. This.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This right here. It actually really works instead of an alligator. I was gonna tell you that over on Bluesky, which is a brand new platform that a lot of people don't know how to use. A user named Obs Handle. Obz said. Hey, did you guys know that you're on one of the top recommendations on Goodreads for Women's History Month?

[Georgia Hartstark]

Like Autobiography Reads or Stay Sexy and Don't get Murdered. Our memoir.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our one and only book.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Oh my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Pretty cool, right?

[Georgia Hartstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thanks, Obvs, for letting us know because we didn't know.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Obviously we didn't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Obvs is there making sure.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Let's get that book going again. Remember that? That was so fun.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh my God, the book days.

[Georgia Hartstark]

The book days. Like writing that book. And I'm still so proud of it, even though I haven't read it in a long time. It might not hold up, but that doesn't matter.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, really, whose book holds books? They're supposed to hold up.

[Georgia Hartstark]

It's none of our business.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wouldn't it be funny if like all the great Russian novelists were like, eh, it doesn't just make another one it's not supposed to.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Just read it while you're. Yeah, read it in the moment. I have. Speaking of reading, I have an now about my story last week.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Perfect.

[Georgia Hartstark]

About the Great Train Robbery that I covered. It says hi all. On Wednesday, February 26, I went to a weekly bar trivia with my friends down in San Diego. We've been going off and on to a handful of bars for about 10 years, which I think I want to start doing now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Bar trivia? Yeah, absolutely.

[Georgia Hartstark]

During the second round, which is typically very easy, they asked the question, what vehicle was used in the 1963 British crime that broke the record for most money stolen at once? But it was Wednesday. As someone who has listened to every episode and minisode of mfm, let alone many other true crime podcasts and lots of stuff you should know, I was completely stumped and baffled that I would not know this answer. We ended up guessing a double decker bus since it was the most quintessential British vehicle we could think of.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I love that. That's so hilarious. Like Mini Cooper or something.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Yeah. And then the answer was simply train. I was chagrin. And to add insult to injury, the next day, Thursday, February 27, what pops up on my podcast playlist but the newest episode of about the 1963 British train robbery. As I listened to the episode with mild ire, you mentioned that you were helping stack up intel for someone's pub trivia. Remember?

[Karen Kilgariff]

What?

[Georgia Hartstark]

Because of the Sopranos song, that one of the sons of one of the robbers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Georgia Hartstark]

And we're like, this is good for you for your future pub trivia.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hartstark]

I was stopped in my tracks with the glitchy matrix of it all.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That is so weird. That's weird.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Anyway, love you all. Thank you. And maybe I'll switch to a Thursday night trivia bar from here on out. Thanks, Elora. Like Laura.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Perfect Elora. Thank you.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That must have really freaked Elora out.

[Georgia Hartstark]

I would have been so angry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, it does seem like it would be a good idea to listen to all of your trivia ish. Or like kind of like specific information podcasts before you go to those trivia nights.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Yeah, but what if it hasn't even come out yet?

[Karen Kilgariff]

The trivia?

[Georgia Hartstark]

Yeah. No, the podcast. Oh, it was on Wednesday. You know, you can't listen in the future.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You can't go around and learn things that aren't out in the world.

[Georgia Hartstark]

No, you can't know what you don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You can't literally.

[Georgia Hartstark]

And you shouldn't probably too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But I think that's what kind of pub trivia nights are all about. Is like you're supposed to know everything in the world. I know. And if you don't, you better go.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Drink in the corner or you have enough friends that do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hartstark]

And make you, like, not seem stupid.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Everyone comes in with their specific thing where it's like, yes, I'm TV from 1978.

[Georgia Hartstark]

That's like what I love about pub trivia though is like you hang out with people you normally wouldn't hang out with because like they're not the people that know everything that you know. And we have this like sinky thing. It's like the people who are like, oh, that's random so and so. And he knows every single fucking thing about coding or everything. Everything about politics. I never see him. It's like, well, that's perfect for Come to pub trivia.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Come and I will talk to you. Geography guy.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Yeah. What do you got?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just this little skeleton friend. I have nothing else. Should we do some highlights?

[Georgia Hartstark]

Sure. All right. We have a podcast network called Exactly Right. And we want you to listen to all the podcasts on it, which is why we're giving you some highlights.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like for example, this week on this podcast Will Kill youl, Aaron and Aaron are launching their brand new four part pregnancy series, Huge Amazing. So on Tuesday, March 11, you can be part of the excitement by going to YouTube. They're doing a special YouTube premiere of the very first episode. So it's a video episode of this podcast Will kill you. If you've been listening to the errands explain every disease and body part and thing to you over the years, you can now go watch them do it, this very important series and just get to interact video style with that podcast.

[Georgia Hartstark]

So on March 11th at 5pm Pacific Standard Time, you can watch the show, you can chat with everyone and get your questions answered, your pregnancy questions answered in real time. Please go to YouTube.com exactly right media. Make sure you subscribe because we're going to be throwing some cool videos up there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep.

[Georgia Hartstark]

And this is just like the very first of many to come.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's video time over here.

[Georgia Hartstark]

You could see them in our studios in our actual. They came and saw us. It was exciting.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. The errands are here. It's like the characters from another place come and interact in this board game.

[Georgia Hartstark]

And the pregnancy thing, I mean, I am a weirdo and I'm fascinated and I know a ton of stuff about pregnancy and so I love the idea of Just like, and I'm never gonna do it. But this is a great way to relate to your friends who are and will and can and should totally what.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They go through and all of it and understanding or if it is what you are going through and you have question. Whatever. These are two amazing doctors who love to teach through their podcast.

[Georgia Hartstark]

I guess.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry.

[Georgia Hartstark]

That's good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I didn't mean to do a speech. Over on Dear Movies I Love youe, Millie and Casey take a deep dive into Quentin Tarantino's film the Hateful Eight. And they also chat with Brian Soar from the Pure Cinema podcast to tackle an essential question, how to sound like a movie buff without being insufferable. Spoiler alert. It's impossible to do.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Absolutely. And on that's messed up. Liza and Cara break down SVU episode 6, season 3 titled Redemption to explore the wrongful convictions tied to the crimes of Eddie Mosley. And they also sit down with actor David Keith to talk about his time on SVU and his incredible career.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They have David Keith on their podcast.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Fucking insane.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's like one of my foundational memories. He was on TV when I started to understand there was a TV in the room.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This man is a legend.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Legendary.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So cool. Okay. Also this week on Ghosted, Roz welcomes filmmakers Shannon Alexander and Ashley Roland White to share some spine tingling stories from Ashley's haunted Brooklyn home. Which is the eerie setting of their documentary entitled It's Coming.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Hell yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Which is the scariest title maybe I've ever heard.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Scary.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So if you like ghost stories that keep you up at night, go listen to this episode. It's for you.

[Georgia Hartstark]

You know, my sister recently had found out she had a gas leak in her house. And I was like, have you been seeing ghosts? Because that's my big theory, you know, and she hasn't. Oh, she's just been tired.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's been snapping 18 hours a day. God, that's so scary.

[Georgia Hartstark]

And it's been for like a year. She goes, tell me you're the child of a narcissistic parent without telling me. And it's like, because I ignored a gas leak for a year and said it must have been in my head. Don't worry about it. Don't be annoying. Yep.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Don't have needs. Don't need clean fresh air for you and your family. Right?

[Georgia Hartstark]

Okay. Anyway, speaking of haunting, some of.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Speaking of sorrow, some of our most.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Popular merch has returned from its sold out purgatory. Because you guys loved them so much. For those looking to upgrade their Jean jacket. As we said, we have the skeleton pin and the MFM mood pin. They are restocked. These both sold out, so make sure you go get [e-mail]. yay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yay.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Okay, this is kind of. I'm not gonna call it a fun one because this podcast is called My favorite Murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hartstark]

However, it is a caper. I would call it like an adventure caper that was really big in the UK in the like early mid 2000s. Huge story that I maybe had heard of, but, like, didn't remember. I bet you'll know it. So it's 5:30pm It's December 1, 2007. Oh, what I know. We're at the West End Central Police station in the middle of London. Busy, beautiful London. You know, people are shopping, there's tourists, People are meeting for drinks after work. They're on the way to the theaters.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're talking in British accent.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Beautiful British accent. Scarves, my God. Double decker buses, pipes. Robbing trains.

[Karen Kilgariff]

101 Dalmatians.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Oh, my God. So a man walks into the police station. He appears to be in his mid-50s. He's like, clean cut, he's in good health. He's got a tan, which is rare for London, frankly. And he says to the officer, quote, I think I may be a missing person. So there do some probing, and they realize he is a man who very famously went missing five years earlier in 2002. His name is John Darwin. He had set out in a kayak. Here's the thing for the rest of this, kayak and canoe are going to be interchangeable because either they're the same thing over there or they are interchangeable over there. But when I say canoe, I mean kayak. When I say kayak, I mean canoe. Okay, I'm gonna stick with canoe.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The fact that you have said this, though, I'm pretty sure I've seen this made for TV movie.

[Georgia Hartstark]

There's a made for TV movie and a great documentary. And. Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And is Mr. Darcy the star of the made for TV movie?

[Georgia Hartstark]

I didn't watch it. Is he?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think he is. No. Documentary, no, sorry, no, not Mr. Darcy. But I think I've seen him.

[Georgia Hartstark]

But can I tell you who he looks like just so you can picture it? And it's like a spitting image of. He's a British John McEnroe, the famous tennis player.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Spitting image to me. So he had set out on a kayak from a beach near his home and was presumed dead. Lost at sea. But John, this guy who walks in says he can't remember anything that's happened to him in the past seven years. Basically from two years before he paddled away. He basically is like, I must have amnesia. He says, quote, I have hazy recollections of in a kayak, but I cannot remember the accident or anything leading up to it at all. It is therefore true to say that I do have some form of amnesia. End quote. That's his story.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But you know how amnesiacs always talk like that where they're like, well, it could be this or it could be that, as opposed to just, I don't know, help me, I don't know where I am.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Yeah, I would imagine. But the neurologist who examines him is immediately skeptical about his amnesia claims. And from there the story begins to unravel into what will very quickly become a British tabloid sensation. This is the story of the disappearance of John Darwin. The main sources for the story are a reporting from the Guardian and a book called out of My Depth by Ann Darwin, the wife. And the rest of the sources can be found in our show notes. Okay, so let me tell you about the Darwin's. Let's back up to the day Darwin first became a missing person. So that was March 22, 2002. And Ali Elkin, my researcher, wrote Nickelback's how youw Remind Me is the top of the US charts and at number four in the uk. I love the time and place. Nickelback.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's all you need to hear.

[Georgia Hartstark]

That's all you need.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was the peak of Nickelback season.

[Georgia Hartstark]

That's right. And it's number four in the UK where our story takes place. Beautiful. I love the way she just brought it around.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Brilliant.

[Georgia Hartstark]

John and his wife Ann live in the seaside town of Seton Carew. Huh. It's on the northeast coast of England, not too far from Newcastle. It's like a beach town, a little bit run down, you know, it used to be a big touristy thing and I think it's not so much anymore. John and Ann Darwin are a couple in their early 50s. Ann works as a receptionist in a doctor's office and John is a corrections officer in a prison and seems to get along with the prisoners really well, which is interesting. He had previously been a math and science teacher and had worked for a bank before that. And the couple are also landlords. They rent out bedsits, which basically to us would be if you rented like a bedroom and then the bathroom is down the hall and you shared that with all the other tenants. So a bedsit single room. Occupancy apartments basically.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So that's for when you're writing your novel down by the seaside.

[Georgia Hartstark]

It is a beautiful like old Victorian looking place down by this like, you know, overcast British sea. It's, it's really beautiful. Picturesque. The Darwin's own 12 houses in the area and they've all been converted into these bedsits so they're not that expensive. Like that's, that's the thing too about the area where they can. They people who are just have normal jobs can buy these houses and turn it into this and make money off of them. So it's not like they're not in London, you know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hartstark]

John has always been involved in side hustles which AKA get rich quick schemes. One involved. And this is a great idea, breeding snails to sell to restaurants for escargot. Like. Yeah, where do the snails come from?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Someone's gotta do it.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Farm those snails.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean now I just want to ask somebody all about like, is there a certain way you have to do it that makes it food grade quality?

[Georgia Hartstark]

Exactly. And then also like is it like salmon where you're like that's farm raised. I can tell because of the color and like it's better to get it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The texture.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Little chichi, chew chichi. Have you ever had escargot? I've had it a couple times.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What do you think?

[Georgia Hartstark]

It's a really good chewy thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you think it'd be as good without all the garlic?

[Georgia Hartstark]

No, no, no, no, no. It's the garlic and butter that makes in parsley that makes it good in the bread. It's not bad. You don't taste snail, but you just know you're eating snail.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Now I truly want to listen to a podcast about how escargot became any kind of a thing that people are Aaron.

[Georgia Hartstark]

And Aaron, this podcast will kill you actually because there is that one boy who ate a slug in like Australia and fucking died. Ate a like poisonous slug as a dare.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Don't eat. Don't do that.

[Georgia Hartstark]

And the fuzzy no dare caterpillars are my like worst nightmare.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If someone dares you. No, what you say back to that person is why is there no one at home with you? What's wrong with you?

[Georgia Hartstark]

Why am I a teenage boy?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Why aren't you? What's happening?

[Georgia Hartstark]

Teenage boys. Oh my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, here. Eat a poisoned pink.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Which in nature we know are poisonous. Cause they're like bright yellow or black and white stripes.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Don't do it. Okay, so tell us about snails. Snailarinos.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh my God.

[Georgia Hartstark]

There's gotta be.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The subgroup that loves escargot needs to be uniting right now.

[Georgia Hartstark]

They're a French subgroup of murderinos. Like, how do they call themselves? There you go. Thank you. Okay. Another get rich quick scheme involves painting gnomes to sell at flea markets. Because, you know, they just come into like. And then you just paint them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know. Red hat.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Yeah, right. Or like, maybe they're kitschy and like, different.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, Some have really red cheeks like me.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Some are Irish. By 2002, John and Ann's two sons, Mark and Anthony. What? Are in their mid-20s and kind of hot.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh yeah, yeah.

[Georgia Hartstark]

They're kind of like, you know, hot British dudes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fit, as the British would say.

[Georgia Hartstark]

They are fit. They no longer live at home. John and Anne live in a big Victorian townhouse in a row of similar townhouses that line this cliff overlooking the sea. Very beautiful. They actually own two properties in this row. The one they live in and then the one next door that is converted to bedsits. This will be important, I swear. So at 8:30 in the morning on March 22, 2002, John sets out in his red kayak, or canoe, paddling out to sea. It's just a hobby of his.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hartstark]

That morning, a neighbor sees John in the distance paddling in the water. He's the last person to see John, and John doesn't come back from his morning paddle. But no one reports him missing until 9:30 that night, which is when Ann comes home from work and running errands and hears the message on the answering machine from the prison where John works saying that he never showed up for his night shift. So he left early in the morning and it wasn't until 9:30 at night. By midnight, a huge search and rescue operation is underway and continues into the next day. Five crews from the Royal National Lifeboat Institution, two boats from the Coast Guard and one police aircraft with heat seeking equipment search a 62 square mile area around the waters where John is last seen paddling. So this is a big deal. Yeah, this is a big scary deal that this person could be lost at sea. Police search the shoreline and at about 1:15 the the following afternoon, one of the searchers finds a kayak paddle. It's down by the shore, not too far from the town they live in and not too far from where John had set off. Of course, without his paddle, they know John would be adrift, so this is even a bigger emergency. But the rescue teams are puzzled because the North Sea where John was in has been unusually Calm. And everyone is wondering how John could have had any issues in such good weather. But the search and rescue teams find no sign of John or his kayak, and people begin to fear the worst. Ann Darwin asks relatives to go tell her two sons that their father is missing and that it doesn't look good. And the sons are, of course, devastated. They're even more devastated four days later when the rescue mission is called off. About six weeks later, on May 8, the wreckage of John's kayak is found. It's in several pieces, but it's washed up on the shore. In that same area, his paddle had been found. The family confirms that the wreckage is John's kayak. So April of 2003, the coroner declares John legally dead. At this point, Ann can file a claim on his life insurance policy, which is worth about £250 in 2003, which is today's US dollars.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hold on. £250,000.

[Georgia Hartstark]

£250,000.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, you said £250.

[Georgia Hartstark]

I didn't mean that. £250,000, which in today's US dollars. I mean, just take a wild guess.

[Karen Kilgariff]

From 2003, and then you have to.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Convert it from pounds to dollars.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can't do that.

[Georgia Hartstark]

No, won't do that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Here's my American answer.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

$400,000.

[Georgia Hartstark]

$690,000. I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I just want that day where I.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Say the exact one day one of us is going to get it and the podcast is over.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's the day that. Oh, then the lights immediately shut off and we walk away.

[Georgia Hartstark]

The landlord comes in and gets the keys back to these offices. It's over. It's. And John also had a few pensions from his various jobs, and so Ann is able to collect benefits on those, too. And life seems to go on for the rest of the family. Now, obviously, at this point, we know what's going on, you and I and everyone else. Spoiler alert. John had faked his own death so he and his wife could collect on the insurance money. Shocker.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But she. Ann doesn't know this yet, right? Or does she? Are you gonna tell us?

[Georgia Hartstark]

I'm gonna tell you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, Sorry. Because I'm trying to remember this TV show. So I'm like, what happened?

[Georgia Hartstark]

I'll tell you, okay? The answer is yes. Anne was in it all along the way. She later tells the story. She says John had put immense pressure on her to go along with his life insurance fraud scheme. The couple were very overextended on all of their real estate, and John came up with this idea of faking his own death to get them out of debt. I think they were like $60,000 in debt and they had all these, you know, rental properties they couldn't cover their mortgage for. So on the day that John went out to see and I can't imagine being talked into this, so either he was very persuasive or she was like, let's do it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Here's a fun factoid. The woman that plays the wife in the Made for tv, I guess it was a miniseries. That was Monica Dolan, who's the same actress who played Rose west in the miniseries about Fred and Rose West. Yes. She is a powerhouse British actress, character actress. And playing this kind of beleaguered put upon wife, you have so much empathy for her.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Wow. She can do it all. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And she's so great. And she's so harried from the be like freaked out from the beginning. And it does seem a little bit just from who knows the way they portray her, that he is kind of like won't leave her alone and is a little bit almost OCD about it and won't leave her alone and then she just has to give in.

[Georgia Hartstark]

From the documentary, I got that idea too. She was like, like, you know, she had been promised this life. Cause he was like always in scheming and stuff like that and it wasn't happening. And he just was like, this is the way it has to go. And she went along with it. Kind of old school wifey type of thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right, right.

[Georgia Hartstark]

You know, on the day when John went out to sea, he made sure he was seen struggling with his kayak down to the shoreline. Oof.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Acting bad. Physical acting. Totally.

[Georgia Hartstark]

He paddled to North Gare where his paddle and kayak had ult and it's a five minute drive from his house. So he had packed camping gear and clothes into the canoe with him and he spent the rest of the day hiding in the dunes. And then he tried to throw the paddle out to sea, but it kept washing ashore. Oh my God. He winds up leaving the paddle close to shore where it was found the next day. He just was like wanting people to find it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Puts it right there.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Right. He sinks the canoe and in the afternoon of the day, he disappears before he's reported missing. John actually calls Anne at work to remind her to pick him up from his H spot that evening. So she's in it from the beginning. She had already been at work by the time John left the house. And she says that when she saw that he was calling, she had hoped he was saying that he hadn't gone through with the plan, but nope, John had gone through with the plan. After Ann picks him up at about 7 in the evening, she drives him to a train station in Durham, not the closest one to their home, because John thinks police will look at that station's CCTV footage. She parks on a side street, still trying to avoid cameras. And then John gets out of the car with his camping gear and clothes and gets on the first of a series of trains. He winds up in Cumbria. It's a scenic part of northern England on the opposite coast from where the Darwin's live. First he stays at a bnb, but then he sees himself on the news, on a TV there. And so he quickly checks out and camps in the woods for about three weeks. Oh, Jesus. I know. He had originally intended to stay away a lot longer, but turns out living outdoors sucks and he's cold and hungry, and so he calls Ann and begs her to pick him up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I just. And look, you're desperate. You're trying to put a plan together but not walking it all the way through to like, what about in one month, two months, three months, where it's like he went and stayed in a bed and breakfast the night that he was supposed to have disappeared.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Yeah. And it sounds like an adventure when you're mapping it out in your head. I'll live in the forest and I'll have those camping gear. And it's like, that lasts a week. And then you're like, fuck this shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's freezing out here.

[Georgia Hartstark]

It's freezing. I have to fucking shit in a hole. Like, no, thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, there's no crisps.

[Georgia Hartstark]

There's no crisps.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No one's fit. Also trying to manipulate the ocean to do what you want to do to back up your story, just as a person who grew up near the coast is such a bad idea.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's never like. First of all, there's experts that know the tides. They know, they watch it constantly. I mean, it kind of worked. But there were people who are like, right. Didn't you say there were people who were.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Yeah, they were skeptical of the story.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But they're just like, nothing's happening. Why would anything be happening?

[Georgia Hartstark]

Yeah, I think everyone, like the insurance adjuster, everyone is like, I don't know about that, but there's no proof otherwise. So, yeah, okay. Just didn't have any proof otherwise. But, yeah, I think people were not, not fooled.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're like, this is the one sneaker wave that hits this time of year.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Or he went under a boat. I don't know. So he calls Anne and begs her to pick him up so they return home. And then he now pretends to be a new tenant living in one of the apartments in the house next door, in the bedsit next door. So he's like, I'm gonna pretend to be someone else.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hartstark]

In the exact spot that I just left three weeks ago. It's foolproof, and you could have done.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It from the beginning.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Right. So the two houses actually have several connecting doors in between them. So John's able to hang out in his old house with Anne, have a cup of tea, and chill there, and, like, basically live there until people come over and he runs next door to hide. And so no one else knows but Anne. And Anne will later say in an interview, quote, fortunately, we had a gravel driveway, so if cars approached, we could hear them come.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So they always had 30 seconds minimum to get to run.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Yeah. So I'm sure she got sick of him real fast, staying home all day. Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, and also because he's pulled her into this thing. Yeah, like, yeah, that would get old real quick.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Very quick. So he now goes by the name Carl Fenwick as this new tenant next door.

[Karen Kilgariff]

God damn it.

[Georgia Hartstark]

He. Why?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I had a mouthful of diet Pepsi, and it just sounds so stupid. It's just like, you know, Carl.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Carl Fenwick.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Coral Fenwick. You know me. It's your old pal Carl Fenwick.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Hey, look at me. I have a scraggly beard. I have an exaggerated limp for some reason. I'm definitely not John Darwin.

[Karen Kilgariff]

For real.

[Georgia Hartstark]

And he basically, like, people see him, and they know that there's this guy who. A new tenant who lives there who helps Anne with stuff around the house, like repairs and the properties. This man, this new John Darwin guy, also avoids interactions with any of the other tenants in the house who knew John. And he uses the back staircase to access, you know, his room.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's all just waiting for an online sleuth to, like, pick up on a couple things.

[Georgia Hartstark]

And then there is an online sleuth in the story.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry, sorry.

[Georgia Hartstark]

No, no, it's great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm gonna keep doing that, though, because I already saw the show, and then I'm just forgetting and then remembering.

[Georgia Hartstark]

No, it's good that you saw it and I didn't. Even though I'm telling you the story. It's a good thing somehow. So then, actually, about a year after John's disappearance, John, as Carl Fenwick, actually bumps into another tenant. He sees this scraggly guy. And he's like, he says to him, aren't you supposed to be dead? Like, he knows it's John Darwin. He's seen this guy before. And then John says, don't tell anyone about this. And it seems like a couple people actually thought they saw him or were sure they saw him. And you know British people, they're just like, none of my business.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Truly.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Low key. They get embarrassed real easy, right?

[Georgia Hartstark]

Like, I don't want to get involved. I don't want to get involved.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No one's going to start pointing and shouting over there in England.

[Georgia Hartstark]

No. There are no snitches in England.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not in the least.

[Georgia Hartstark]

They don't do that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No snitches and no stitches.

[Georgia Hartstark]

That's right. So John evades detection by authorities. He spends a lot of time playing online computer games in his bed. Sit. It's a good life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sure.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Then he applies for a passport by stealing the identity of a baby who had died in infancy the same year he was born, also named John. And Anne says, john got this idea from the book the Day of the Jackal, and it works. He gets a copy of the baby's birth certificate and is able to use it to apply for a passport under the name John Jones. So we have a third name now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What's the second name? Carl Fenwick.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Yeah, Fenny. We call him Fenny at the local pub. John is, like, kind of fairly brazen. He goes out in public. He then also, like, now that he has his passport, he flies to Spain in 2005. I think they go on a couple hol, as they call it, with that huge fucking windfall of money from his death in 2006. He uses his fake name to sign a petition against planned construction that's supposed to happen to the house next door. Like, don't put your fucking name down. He's got to get involved.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's got to.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Yeah, he's kind of just like, well, this is over now and I can move on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because he believes that, like, the reality he's dictating is reality.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Absolutely. What is that? Sociopath?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or, like, I don't know, is it what we all do? And then we're just kind of like it's a fight of delusional or something. But I mean, to me, his delusion is that thing of, like, it's as delusional the thing he did as now, the way he's acting within it. Like, I just don't want to be doing this anymore.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Right. It's not like one is more than the Other, but it's just what he decides the temperature is that day.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's all a Carl Fenwick style plan.

[Georgia Hartstark]

It surely is. So at this point in 2006, Ann and John start making a plan to move to Panama together. Like she's stuck by this guy's side. Yeah, she lists both of those properties in Seaton Carou and the house sells. And so she has her sons come over to help her clean it out. Now the sons never know about the scheme. The sons think their dad was lost at sea. Which is really the most heartbreaking part of this whole story. Yeah, she has them select items of their father's that they want to keep like keepsakes for him. And one of the sons actually selects a book that later they realized was like that it was the dad's that they later realized was published after he disappeared. So John and Ann do move to Panama in the fall of 2007 and it's at the same time that the police start investigating them. Basically what happens is in the lead up to the move, one of Ann's colleagues who's a snitch turns out hears her having hush conversations on the phone, which is weird. The tone of the conversation is exactly the way she would have talked to her husband. So this chick's nosy as fuck. And she's also, she's always whispering and covering the receiver. Just fishy business.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was tough back then when everyone used the phone, right. And you'd kind of like stuff would happen and then you'd have to do weird stuff like that.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Like you're in the doc, you're in the doctor's office where you work and.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You'Re just like, you pull the long cord around into a different. Yeah, like into the copy room.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Right. So this co worker just has a gut feeling that she's talking to her husband and she reports the her suspicions to the police. So they start re investigating John's disappearance.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What's the. She must have not.

[Georgia Hartstark]

What'd she get out of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or she thinks it's something worse then.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Oh yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Only just because knowing the overall crime, it's so self serving that it's like I don't know if citizen like I'd like to make a citizen's arrest.

[Georgia Hartstark]

It's really law abiding in a way that like what was she like really? I don't know, you know, no shame.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No shame. No shade.

[Georgia Hartstark]

A little bit of both.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Half a cup of shade and just a droplet of shame.

[Georgia Hartstark]

That's it. And so John and Ann don't know yet that they're being looked into. And so they make that plan to move to Panama, but they're only there for three months before John is like, fuck this shit, basically, and has to go back to the UK because Panama had changed its visa rules. So if they actually wanted to continue living there, John and Anne will each need a letter from their local police force back home saying they are of good character. So John, of course, can't do this with his fake identity. And so he's like, I have an idea. Amnesia. Let's do this. And he flies back to the UK and walks into that police station and is like, I think I'm a missing person.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And at this point, when he pitches that idea to her, she's just.

[Georgia Hartstark]

What?

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's. I'm begging you. Yeah, I'm begging you to stop.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Just. Just please.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What are you doing?

[Georgia Hartstark]

Please. So that's December of 2007, when he walks back into the police from the beginning of the story. Again, neurologists are immediately doubtful, but the police still notify John's two sons, who are shocked and then absolutely elated to find out that their father, who they believed was dead for five years, lost at sea, is still alive. The story catches on at the man who was thought dead in a canoeing accident has turned up alive in London, and that he seemingly can't account for the past five years, the detail that his wife had moved to Panama also becomes part of the story. I think people at first were, like, kind of believed the story, right? I'm sure a lot were like, there's more to it than that. But this is interesting and immediately is like tabloid.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like, you understand why the tabloids pick the stories they pick because it's almost like, what's your neighbor up to?

[Georgia Hartstark]

Right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, you think that guy with the beard is just. What's his name? Carl.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Carl Fenwick? Yeah. It's sensational. No, that's fucking John Darwin. Everyone's known that. Okay, then, here comes our citizen sleuth. This random woman decides to Google something along the lines of John, Ann and Panama. And when she goes to the Images tab, she finds a picture from a Panama real estate agent's office. It shows John, Ann and the broker all smiling together with a date stamp from 2006, when they rented this apartment or they bought this house. I don't know which is. But Ann this whole time had been saying that she thought her husband was dead. And so they find this photo of them from like, a year before, smiling. Why Would you take a picture? Don't let anyone take a picture of you. Don't sign any fucking forms. Like basics.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But don't you think that's because that is the last remnants of people who did not grow up with the Internet? Don't understand.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Why would that go on the Internet?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it's like, it's a picture. It's going to stay in South America and there will be nothing that brings it out of this area. It's just for the real estate agent.

[Georgia Hartstark]

It's 2006. We don't do that shit right now. No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then it's like, yeah, totally.

[Georgia Hartstark]

So this, like, basically Anne had been insisting that she knew nothing. She thought her husband was dead. Everything falls apart. This woman sends the photo to the police and the Daily Mirror and the Mirror, of course, runs the photo. And the story goes from being kind of a simple, mildly interesting story to causing a complete uproar. And John becomes known around the UK as Canoe Man. Like, front page. The photo of them from the real estate office smiling like nobody's business. On December 5, the same day the photo runs in the Mirror, John is arrested for fraud, which is not surprising at all. Right. Like you just kind of humiliated the police, even though they were onto you. But it's been five years and they believed it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And no one could kind of do anything about it.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Right. Ann flies back to the UK and is also promptly arrested. Just a few days after these arrests, Mark and Anthony, the fit sons, release a statement saying they had no idea that their father was alive and they are cooperating with police and that they are no longer speaking to either of their parents. I know, Devastating.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They are truly the victims, it seems like. Also the wife. But she did go along with it because that is kind of what that.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Whole she deceived them made for TV.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Movie is where it's like, that's the part she can't explain. And they're like, what the hell?

[Georgia Hartstark]

I mean, it's almost worse for her because she had to lie to their faces for five years when he could just skedaddle.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, typical. I mean, like, she's carrying the water for the big plant and then when the big plan falls, a plan she doesn't believe in falls apart. She is the scapegoat. Cause she's supposed to be better than her husband.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Right. Who would. Who would do such a thing? In March of 2008, John pleads guilty to seven charges of obtaining cash by deception and a passport offense. Some of his other charges are dropped in a Plea deal. He's sentenced to about six years in prison. And then Ann's case goes to trial in July of 2008. She pleads not guilty to six charges of deception and nine charges of money laundering. Cause the money all was in her, like, went to her. It was in her name. You know what I mean? So she takes the fall for that, and she gets over six years more than him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Gotta remember that part if you are the bag man.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Right? You're still.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're still in there.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, God.

[Georgia Hartstark]

I know. Her defense team says John forced her to go along with the scheme, but it doesn't matter. She's found guilty. Both John and Anne have since been released from prison and have gotten divorced. Like, all that for what?

[Karen Kilgariff]

For what?

[Georgia Hartstark]

Anne has reconciled with her sons and wrote a book about the scheme called out of My Death, which is one of the sources for the story. Anne donated the profits from her book to charities including the Royal National Lifeboat Institution, which led the search for John when he first faked his disappearance.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's a very decent move.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's very smart.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Yeah. John now lives in the Philippines, and he married a woman who is 23 years younger than him. And that is the story of the disappearance of John Darwin.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow. That's good.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Oh, my God. Can you imagine? No, Vince, I'm not. You can't do that. That's like. I just.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hey, come on. And then he just keeps bringing it up like lunch at dinner.

[Georgia Hartstark]

That's a bad idea. It's not gonna work. No. Let's just paint some more gnomes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We gotta do it. We gotta do it. It's gonna get us so much money.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Let's paint some more gnomes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Order double gnomes.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Grow some fucking snails. Grow some more snails on the snail tree. And like, get this. Jesus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Jesus. Also, I'm just blown away that having so much real estate didn't matter. That was like a minus to them.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Just the ego there of, like, I can do this and then stop doing it whenever I want and pull drag in whoever.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hartstark]

And like, to not consider that your sons are losing their father in their minds. And the devastation that comes with losing a parent in such a traumatic way to not even consider how that's gonna affect them the rest of their lives.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The traumatic way that's a lie. And then the traumatic way that's real. Either way, it's almost. It's like a worse where it's like, oh, no, your dad. You didn't tragically lose your dad at sea.

[Georgia Hartstark]

He did this to you with your mother. She should have taken all the money from that book and put it into their therapy account, because that's gonna be forever.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was great.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nice one.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Oh, the documentary is called the Thief, His Wife in a Canoe. And it's good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nice. All right, well, let's take a. Let's take a turn back to Women's History Month.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Let's go back. Can we please?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's revisit it just for a second and then in doing so, also talk about my favorite topic, which is Victorian England.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Hell, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I will warn listeners this story references very disturbing old British police process, which was essentially the sexual abuse of women. And it's very upsetting. So just listen with caution, please. So today we're gonna talk about a little known British historical figure who, despite her very real impact on British society, is not as famous as she should be. Historian Sarah C. Williams wrote a book on this person and she put it this way. Quote, this woman devoted her life to pursuing justice for women. She played a pivotal role in the movement to gain equal constitutional rights for women in Britain. In fact, she was described by her contemporaries as, quote, the most distinguished woman of the 19th century. End quote. Why is it then that we've largely forgotten her? End quote.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Yeah. Why is it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, given how passionately this woman went after Victorian double standards that overwhelmingly favored men while fighting for women's access to education, suffrage, and bodily autonomy, and the fact that she wasn't afraid to break social etiquette in the process probably is what made her much more controversial in her time than obviously she would be now. Today, she's known to some as the, quote, patron saint of sex workers. Oh. This is the story of 19th century British activist Josephine Butler.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right. So the main sources used today are the writing and research of Sarah C. Williams, including her book When Courage Calls Josephine Butler and the Radical Pursuit of Justice for Women. That book is heavily cited. Also an article by historian Michelle Higgs that was called How Poverty Drove Thousands of Women to Sell Sex on the Streets of Victorian Britain. And that ran in the British magazine who do youo Think youk Are? Which I got you a subscription to for your birthday.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This year, coming up, also an article by Kimmy Harris in Christianity Today entitled Jesus Befriended Prostitute. So this Victorian era woman did, too.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The rest of the sources are in our show notes. Okay, so we're gonna start at the beginning, and that is in 1828 in Northumberland. This is the northern edge of England. And that's the year that Josephine Gray is born. Her family isn't exactly the aristocracy, but they are members of the upper middle class with serious political connections. Josephine's father's cousin, for example, is a man named Charles Gray, who will go on to become the prime minister in 1830. Politically speaking, Josephine's parents are very, very progressive, with their ideals and convictions being firmly rooted in their strong Christian faith. Her mother, Hannah, breaks from the norms of the day and gives her daughters lessons, like at homeschools them, while her father, John, is a vocal abolitionist and campaigner for social reform who openly discusses the topics of politics with his kids. So in 1852, when Josephine is 23, she marries a classics professor at Durham College named George Butler. George is cutting edge when it comes to Victorian men. He is ideologically totally on the same page as Josephine, and he respects her curiosity and intelligence, which is, imagine that, sadly rare in Victorian England. Curiosity and intelligence were ugly back then. Josephine, in turn, is inspired by George's work in academia and on the weekends, like to study texts and scripture together. And then I just wrote, just kidding. The weekend hadn't been invented yet.

[Georgia Hartstark]

That's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Think of all those children working in the workhouses.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Say weekend.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Working on. Yeah, no weekend. Okay. So eventually, George accepts a job at his alma mater, Oxford University, and the couple packs up and relocates. And at first, Josephine is very excited by the idea of being surrounded by academics and people who value education. But that excitement quickly fades once they settle in. One issue is that Josephine struggles with the bad air in Oxford, which it's described as, quote, damp, and that triggers respiratory issues that she's been dealing with since childhood. But the other issue is social, because at the time, all Oxford students are men, and they've been encouraged to remain single since having a family is seen as being in conflict with the life of an academic. Many Oxford students are in training to be priests, and much of the faculty are already ordained. So, in short, life at Oxford is dominated by young single men, who, unlike George, tend to ignore the intellect of women. At the same time, many of these male students and their professors are supposedly, quote unquote, celibate. And yet they regularly visit sex workers, even though this is not allowed and theoretically punishable. At Oxford, Josephine often sees women and girls being brought into town and picked up by, well to do men affiliated with the school. Some of these girls look very young, like children, and that especially troubles Josephine. So, of course, many sex workers today find empowerment in their work. But of course, in the 19th century, the polite and publicly prudish Victorian Attitude around sex work is very, very negative on all fronts, with the women who sell sex being seen as pariahs. This is despite many women turning to sex out of financial desperation, like they've been widowed or they are unmarried women with children, or they're flower girls or domestic workers who are not just basically making enough money to live and feed themselves. Historian Michelle Higgs writes, quote, referred to as the great social evil, prostitution was an ever present fact of life in Victorian Britain and was considered by the upper and middle class to be a threat to society and morality as a whole. Fallen women was the label applied to those who had fallen from the ideal of passive womanhood and lost their purity or innocence by indulging in premarital sex.

[Georgia Hartstark]

With the people who are insulting them in that very sentence.

[Karen Kilgariff]

With those same fathers and husbands in the families that are turning their noses up.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Right. That are utilizing their service.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. So Josephine Butler does not judge female sex workers the way others at the time do. Even though she herself is very, very religious. She seems to be the rare Christian who genuinely ascribes to the idea that all people are equal in God's eyes. What really bothers Josephine is the huge double standard around sex and sex work. Michelle Higgs again says, quote, in Victorian times, the sexual appetites of men and their use of sex workers was considered the norm. Women, on the other hand, were expected to be chaste and passive and to retain their virtue at all costs. Sex workers were punished under the law for soliciting and yet the men who used their services were not.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Yeah, like, what the fuck?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, this game is rigged and has been since day one. So at Oxford, Josephine sees how the school turns a blind eye to the male members of their community paying for sex, while local police eagerly arrest and jail the women for providing it. So Josephine starts visiting these women not to try to reform them or to chastise them, but to befriend them. It's around this time that Josephine learns about a tragic case involving an unnamed teenage girl. It is not clear if she was a sex worker or not. We know that that's an issue from telling stories about women in Victorian times. Like in the Five, Hallie Ruben holds the five women where she's like, there's no proof any of these women that were victims of Jack the Ripper were also sex workers.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Right. And then also, like, what does that mean? If, like, one time you were literally starving to death and you know you did something you had to do, does that turn you forever into a sex worker or.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And Also, are you somehow justifying this horrendous murder of this person? Right, it's a. Well, they get what they get. Is that supposed to be the message?

[Georgia Hartstark]

Men, we don't have to care. Is the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, this is a lesson we learned year one, where and a lot of this stuff is handed down is like that super prudish, like in my case, very Catholic approach to that, where it's like, well, this is automatically bad. So here's how you should be judging these people.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Right. Instead of questioning everything we've been fucking every time. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So here's the story of this teenage girl. She was made pregnant by an Oxford scholar who then abandoned her. She was left to carry the baby alone, which would be traumatizing and isolating in and of itself. Then, shortly after she gives birth, she has no options, she has no future. She kills the newborn baby. So many Victorians see this girl as being the antithesis of what a woman quote, should be. But Josephine sees a disempowered, abused, isolated girl being punished for a hypocritical morality system that allows the man who got her pregnant to walk away scot free.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So when this girl is eventually released from prison, Josephine and George do something unthinkable in Victorian society. They take her in as a domestic servant.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Employing this quote, fallen woman in their own home could very well mean social death for most well to do families. But as a write up from the Salvation army explains, quote, Josephine remarkably retained a respectable reputation due to her additional adherence to the virtuous rules assigned to her sex by Victorian society, marriage, motherhood, morality and piety. So they couldn't get her, they couldn't scratch her.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then she's like, and I'm doing this with this social power.

[Georgia Hartstark]

I have this and I'm using it. Yeah, for good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So all the while, George has noticed that his wife is neither happy or healthy in Oxford. So in 1857, he takes a new position as a schoolmaster in Cheltenham College, which is 40 miles west of Oxford in England's beautiful and idyllic Cotswolds region. And the move is an instant improvement for Josephine. The environment is better for her health, so it starts to improve. Then also, the Butlers have a lot of space for their growing family at this point. They have four young children. They have Georgie, Stanley, Charlie and then their young daughter Eva.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Cute.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Here in Cheltenham, the Butlers live in a large four story home that's owned by Georgia's employer. So it's big enough that it can house a dormitory of 30 schoolboys, reception rooms for entertaining and a grand staircase with long banisters.

[Georgia Hartstark]

So they live with all the students.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, because that's first of all, it's a college, which means it's a grammar school. It's one of those deals, I think, for the Brits and it sounds like it's like a boarding school or whatever.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Got it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Those are all guesses, though it could be wrong. If you went to Cheltenham College in.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Victorian England, please write in little Victorian ghost. And you went, please.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, we do have something terribly tragic that happens in the family and in that house. One night In August of 1863, the baby of the Butler family, five year old Eva, comes rushing out of her fourth floor nursery to say goodnight to her parents who are downstairs in the drawing room. But she runs toward the banister, loses her balance and falls over the banister four stories to her death.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Oh, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Horrible.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So, of course, as you can imagine, the Butlers are consumed by grief for years. Josephine will later call it, quote, a long drought in my soul. The loss stuns her so much that she isn't able to fully reflect on Eva's death for decades, which is totally normal, but. But it does in a strange way awaken something inside of her. Because all the love that she poured into her daughter now fuels her deep desire to improve the lives of little girls like her daughter and the women they later become. So when the family relocates to Liverpool for Georgia's next job, Josephine brings this conviction and her deep grief along with her. And Liverpool opens her eyes. It's the first big city that Josephine's ever lived in and she sees that it's a place where the rich and the poor basically exist side by side. Josephine will later write, quote, I became possessed with an irresistible urge to go forth and find some pain keener than my own, to meet with people more unhappy than myself.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was not difficult to find misery in Liverpool. I had no clear idea beyond that.

[Georgia Hartstark]

That's so interesting. Like in your grief you want to be surrounded by people who can, who can understand it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep. Religious late.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Yeah. You're not trying to be like with butterflies and sunbeams.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, you just. That's what you need in a time like that is just someone who. You don't even have to say anything, just like. Yep. So Josephine starts at the very bottom. She begins visiting the Brownlow Workhouse, which is home to around 4,000 of the city's most impoverished residents. We've talked about Victorian workhouses on this show before their Institutions where the poor were housed as they are paying for basically their debts to society through grueling labor. Josephine begs to be led into the basement of the Brownlow workhouse. And that's where the most destitute women are working. The work they're doing is called oakum picking, where they pull apart old ropes and separate the fibers so they can be reused for caulking for ship.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's done for hours on end in exchange for scraps of food and a very uncomfortable bed for the night. Josephine will later write, quote, I was taken into an immense, gloomy vault filled with women and girls, more than 200 probably at the time I sat on the floor among them. They laughed at me and told me my fingers were of no use for that work, which was true. But while we laughed, we became friends. So this might sound maybe a bit tone deaf on her part, but Josephine seems genuinely interested in getting to know these women at the workhouse. And these women must have felt that sincerity, because she eventually earns their trust and their friendship. And in doing so, she learns that many of them use sex work to supplement their otherwise unlivable incomes. Just like the women she met in Oxford, these ladies here in Liverpool have suffered disproportionately under assistance that seems to forgive men their every sin and punish women for theirs. So Josephine relays all of this back to her husband, and the two decide once again to open their home to these women, in particular, the sex workers who are dying of sexually transmitted diseases. The butlers offer them a safe place to either rest and recover or spend their final days dying with dignity.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. But as the butlers take in more and more women, it becomes clear that they need more space. They will eventually open a hostel, and later a more humane workhouse that they build where steady work is available in a safe environment. Josephine isn't asking anyone to change. She's certainly not forcing anyone to change. And she doesn't see women who do sex work as lost causes. She's just gently offering them an alternative if they want it. And while she's doing that, she's also fighting for women's access to education, which she sees as the key to women's independence and social mobility. Yeah, there's a reason they don't want to fund education. There's a reason they cut education.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So in addition to her deep empathy, intelligence and strong social reputation, Josephine is also said to be good looking and charming, which of course is an asset in this male dominated world. World. So with equal parts charm and skill, she is eventually able to convince the men who run Cambridge University to expand their courses for women.

[Georgia Hartstark]

What?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's in. I mean, I imagine that that means I could be wrong, but that essentially, she's in those cocktail parties. She's there with her successful, you know, professor husband. They're in the mix.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And when she talks, people listen. Cause she's the real deal.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Yeah. Very cool.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Love it. So after spending years befriending and working with sex workers and becoming increasingly prominent advocate for women's rights, in 1869, Josephine Butler learns about the Contagious Diseases Acts. And these are a group of laws that were put in place in 1864, initially billed as temporary measures to curb venereal disease in the British military. At face value, these laws are geared at protecting public health. But in, of course, truth, they're deeply discriminatory, totally misogynist, and horrifyingly invasive. For starters, they essentially scapegoat women as the reason venereal diseases spread and completely ignore the role that men play.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Where do they get them? Where do you fucking think they get them?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, it's just. It's truly just like, boys rules.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Yeah, that's so, like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So on top of that, the laws have real consequences on women's lives, because one of the most notorious and horrifying examples of this are provisions in the Contagious Diseases Acts that allow plainclothes police officers to detain any woman they might suspect of being a sex worker and subject them to a brutal, humiliating medical examination.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So this is the part we were warning about. Cause she's about to describe how these horrific exams work. Josephine says, quote, the attitude they push us into first is so disgusting and so painful. And I think by attitude, she's talking about, like, the literal physical position. That's my guess. So back into the quote. And then these monstrous instruments they often use several. They seem to tear the passage open with their hands and examine us. And then they thrust in instruments. They pull them out and push them in and turn and twist them about. And if you cry out, they stifle you with a towel over your face. End quote.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Jesus Christ.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is. If they suspect that that's what you're doing, which means they can do it to anyone they want, right? So if a woman refuses to cooperate with police, she's put in jail. And if she endures this traumatic exam and is determined to be infected, she's jailed in what they call a lock hospital, which is a medical facility that specifically treats venereal disease. And that woman is only allowed to leave the lock hospital once she's deemed, quote, clean. After that, as historian Sarah C. Williams writes, quote, women were simply sent back onto the streets of Liverpool to be used again at the convenience of men.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So Josephine finds the Contagious Diseases Acts unconscionable and she refuses to stay silent about them. She eventually joins forces with like minded women and helps launch the Ladies national association for the Repeal of the Contagious Diseases Acts, which is often shorthanded as Ladies national association, or the lna. This group quickly gains momentum and they gather more than 100 signatures, including one from Florence Nightingale, on a public statement condemning these laws. So now Josephine and the LNA take this campaign across Britain and in 1870 alone, she goes to nearly 100 meetings. And while she does find support, there is a ton of opposition. Josephine doesn't mince her words. She condemns these forced exams as, quote, steal, rape, which is incredibly shocking language for Victorian England.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Absolutely.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. For a woman to use.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But the truth is that many people just don't like how frankly, Josephine Butler talks about sex and sex work.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The Guardian reports that one MP will deem her, quote, worse than a common prostitute, end quote. And some of her own friends abandon her because of this campaigning.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Josephine's opponents stoop to new lows. At one meeting, men hurt cow shit at her.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Holy shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But by 1871, it seems like all this hard work is paying off. Parliament launches an official inquiry into the Contagious Diseases Acts. And while the committee offers suggestions like raising the age of consent from 12 to 14 and making the so called medical exams voluntary, Members of Parliament ultimately refused to do anything with these recommendations.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Even worse, some of the Conservative MPs defend the current age of consent. And according to writer Kimmy Harris, quote, asked their fellow lawmakers to consider their past actions and the possible future actions of their sons before criminalizing having sex with young girls.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Damn.

[Karen Kilgariff]

End quote.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Damn.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Uh huh. Other MPs quote, openly defended sexual access to working class girls as a time honored prerogative of gentlemen.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Come on. That's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

According to historian Judith Wolkowitz. But in the face of all this, Josephine does not give up. The same year she gives a speech saying, quote, it seems to be that we women shall soon have to fight for the last inch of ground left us. The crudeness of intellect of some of our young male legislators needs to be corrected by the wisdom of the thoughtful matrons of England. End quote. About a decade later, in 1880, a new prime Minister takes office. His name is William Gladstone and he's friends with the Butlers. The Conservative Parliament of the previous years is ushered out. Josephine's fight is no longer falling on mostly deaf ears. And little by little, provisions in the Contagious Diseases Acts are debated and ended before the whole law is formally repealed within a few years. By this point, the age of consent is also raised to 13 years old.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Jesus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Josephine has won her biggest battle yet. But she does not slow down. Instead, she continues campaigning for women's access to education as well as their right to vote. She also starts campaigning to end coverture, which is the law that gives husbands complete control over their wives, wages and property, as well as any children they share.

[Georgia Hartstark]

She's so ahead of her time. I mean, like, we need her now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We need her now. So in the mid-1880s, Josephine is in her late 50s and she joins several activists. She just doesn't slow down.

[Georgia Hartstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Working to expose the issue of sexual exploitation of children, which is something that's disturbed her since the Oxford days. So Josephine and her allies, including members of the LNA and notably a famous Victorian era investigative reporter named William Stead, and they launch an investigation that takes them into actual brothels undercover, in search of irrefutable proof of child abuse.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Josephine's own son, Georgie, is one of the men who goes in in disguise to investigate one of the brothels. And their findings are incendiary. Josephine and the community of activists around her publish articles and make speeches outlining the sale or abduction of virgins from destitute families to brothel owners and the subsequent rape and torture of these girls at the hands of members of the aristocracy.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Josephine will call this the hardest work she ever does. And the horrors she learns about deeply affect her. She'll even write to a friend about the rooms in the brothels, describing them like this quote, padded all over walls and floor so that a girl might be flung violently about the room or dashed to the floor without any serious bodily injury, for she is valuable property to the brothel keeper. So as long as she continues to have any personal attraction. And then it just says, oh, exclamation point. What horrors I have seen.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So these articles come out, the nation is outraged and Parliament is pushed to act. Before long, the Criminal Law Amendment act is passed, which raises the age of consent from 13 to 16 years old. It also explicitly makes it illegal to, quote, procurement anyone under the age of 18 for sex work via kidnapping, drugging, fraud or intimidation.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Jesus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So for the Victorian era, this is a huge victory for women's rights. But the public anger around this issue has an unintended consequence. It's a huge boon to what they called back then the purity movement. These groups are geared at shutting down any activity that they find immoral, which is basically anything sex related, from broad to birth control. Josephine is skeptical of these groups, and in 1885, she writes, quote, beware of purity societies, ready to accept and endorse any amount of inequality in the laws, any amount of coercive and degrading treatment of their fellow human creatures in the fatuous belief that you can oblige human beings to be moral by force.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

End quote. So this is something that sets Josephine apart from her feminist contemporaries, who often kind of blend their feminism with their own Victorian attitudes around moral purity. So it's hard for most of the women at that time, even though it's just like the intersectionality of. It's like, oh, well, I want feminism for me and white women, a lot of that kind of stuff. So when you bring in that. It's like such a huge part of society was that kind of morality.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Yeah. You're bringing your own biases, even though you think it sounds.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You think you're like, I'm for equal rights, but you're like, I want my kind.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Exactly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But that's why Josephine Butler is just so different, is that that is not the way she was. So after decades of spent lobbying and campaigning for women's empowerment, Josephine becomes a famous advocate in England. She's approached by publishers who want her to write her autobiography. She's already written several books by this point, mostly on feminist topics, but these publishers know that her personal memoir would sell particularly well. Josephine doesn't care. She turns down these opportunities and says, quote, I would like to make some money, but not by speaking about my own self.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, well, who is she? I mean, not me.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Not me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's a legend.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But as her public celebrity hits its peak, things at home are very difficult. Josephine's beloved husband, George has been struggling with his health, and in 1889, during the flu pandemic, he passes away until the end. The Butlers share a wonderful relationship, and this loss, of course, hits Josephine very hard. But even through this grief, Josephine continues to write and speak out on issues that are important to her, including those affecting women and girls. But also she starts talking about racism within the British Empire, which she explicitly condemns. Now that it is just like when we were just talking about. She is a bit contradictory because she also supports Britain's expanding imperial footprint.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But I do think that's that thing of, like, that's how it's always been. So, like, we need, you know, our way is the best way. Nevertheless, she will write, quote, race prejudice is a poison which will have to be cast out if the world is ever to be Christianized and if Great Britain is to maintain the high and responsible place, Place among the nations which has been given to her. End quote. Okay, so for a woman of that time, she's got a B for sure. I mean, you can't see what you can't see.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Right? Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If it's a thing that no one's talking about.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So Josephine keeps writing. It's not her memoir per se, but she does spend several years putting together what's called Personal Reminiscences of a Great Crusade. And that book is published in 1896, when she's almost 70 years old. It's Josephine's most well known book, and it tells the story of the LNA's fight to take down the Contagious Diseases Act. At the turn of the century, she begins to wind down, giving fewer speeches and serving on fewer committees. She's winding down in her mid to late 70s. Then in 1906, Josephine's health begins to decline. She spends her last days with family, reading the Bible with her grandchildren, singing hymns and getting her affairs in order before dying peacefully in her sleep on December 30, 1906, at the age of 78.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just kind of perfectly at the end of a year, just like, got it. I did what I could do while I was here. I did what I could do.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So even though Josephine Butler was very, very famous and influential in her time, she has since faded into obscurity. And historian Sarah J. Williams thinks her deep faith might be part of the reason. Josephine saw Christianity as the foundation of her feminism, which, despite all of the barriers she broke, may put her a little out of step with later waves of feminism, which often push back against organized religion. But others, like historian Elizabeth Longford, think Josephine might have been largely lost to history because, quote, she did not champion the quote, right. Women writer Kimmy Harris adds, quote, the discomfort many of her contemporaries felt over her work to help sex workers continues on in our history books. Josephine accepted this fate because she never sought fame for herself.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

End quote. At the end of the day, Josephine Butler stands as a great example of not only a true Christian, but an undeniable girl's girl. She genuinely loved and cared about, about girls and women and in her book, Personal Reminiscences of a Great Crusade, she goes into great detail about the love, respect and camaraderie that she shared. I gave a little French turn on that I don't know if you like. That she shared with her fellow activists. She writes, quote, as I look back through our long warfare, there rise before my mind not only our united band in untiring conflict with injustice, but many pleasant adventures, social gatherings and sweet friendships taking their rise in a common aim, cemented by fellowship in trial and in hope and ripening year by year. She adds this quote, our long years of labor and conflict on behalf of this just cause ought not to be forgotten. And we agree. That's why I just told you the story of the patron saint of sex workers, Mrs. Josephine Butler.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Boom.

[Georgia Hartstark]

That was excellent.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Doing the work.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Doing the hard work.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Gotta keep doing the hard work.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do it.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Good job.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you.

[Georgia Hartstark]

All right. Well, we did it again.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We did do it.

[Georgia Hartstark]

We did something. We did it again.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And we'll do it again.

[Georgia Hartstark]

We hope so. And we hope you'll be here for it. Thank you, guys, for listening.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Listen, look, stay sexy and don't get murdered.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Goodbye, Elvis. Do you want a cookie?

[Karen Kilgariff]

This has been an exactly right production.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our managing producer is Hannah Kyle Crichton.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This episode was mixed by Liana Squillace.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Our Researchers are Maren McLachan and Ali Elk.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Email your hometowns to my favorite murdermail.com.

[Georgia Hartstark]

Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at. My favorite murder. Goodbye.