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- [00:02]
David Boury
This is exactly right.
- [00:06]
Langston Kermie
Growing up, Melissa had the perfect life until she discovered her father's dark secret. He was the notorious Happy Face killer.
- [00:13]
Karen Kilgariff
Experience a thrilling new Paramount original series inspired by a true life story.
- [00:18]
Langston Kermie
Now, when Melissa's father confesses to a new murder, she must choose between protecting her secret and risking everything to uncover the truth.
- [00:24]
Karen Kilgariff
Annaleigh Ashford and Dennis Quaid star in.
- [00:27]
Langston Kermie
Happy Face new series streaming March 20, exclusively on Paramount. Marc I'm Mark Seale.
- [00:33]
Karen Kilgariff
And I'm Nathan King.
- [00:34]
Langston Kermie
This is Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli.
- [00:36]
David Boury
The five families did not want us to shoot that picture.
- [00:39]
Langston Kermie
This podcast is based on my co host Mark Seals best selling book of the same title. Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli features new and archival interviews with Francis Ford.
- [00:47]
Hannah Smith
Coppola, Robert Evans, James Caan, Talia Shire and many others.
- [00:52]
Langston Kermie
Yes, that was a real horse's head. Listen and subscribe to Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Langston Kermie.
- [01:05]
David Boury
Sometimes I'm on tv. I'm David Boury and I'm probably on TV right now.
- [01:10]
Langston Kermie
David and I are going to take.
- [01:11]
David Boury
A deep dive every week into the most exciting, groundbreaking and sometimes problematic black conspiracy theories. We've had amazing past notable guests like Brandon Kyle Goodman, Sam J. Quinta Brunson and so many more. New episodes are out every Tuesday, many episodes out on Thursdays where we answer you, the listeners, conspiracy theories.
- [01:34]
Langston Kermie
Listen to My Mama told me on.
- [01:37]
David Boury
The iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever.
- [01:40]
Langston Kermie
You get your podcast.
- [01:51]
Karen Kilgariff
My fav.
- [02:00]
Langston Kermie
Hello and welcome to my favorite murder. That's Georgia Hartstar, that's Karen Kilgariff, and.
- [02:06]
Karen Kilgariff
Today we have some very special guests to show you. They are luminaries in the true crime podcast space. You probably know them from their work on the amazing podcast the Opportunist.
- [02:18]
Langston Kermie
And now they have a brilliant new podcast that's gonna be living right here in our little universe of exactly right media. It's called the Knife and It premieres on March 27th. We're so excited to have Patia Eaton and Hannah Smith here with us from the Knife Podcast. Yes. This has been so thrilling, so exciting. We finally got to tell everyone and now you're here on the network. Welcome.
- [02:44]
David Boury
It's the best feeling.
- [02:46]
Hannah Smith
We're so excited.
- [02:47]
David Boury
So excited.
- [02:47]
Langston Kermie
Yay.
- [02:48]
Hannah Smith
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [02:49]
Langston Kermie
When you guys came with this idea, we were. It was like a hard yes immediately, of course. What made you guys come up? Like, what was Your. Because you came off the opportunist, you still wanted to do true crime, but this is like kind of heavier, darker stuff. Like, what made you want to get into that. That world a little more.
- [03:06]
Hannah Smith
Yeah. So, you know, we had a lot of time doing the Opportunists to sort of think about what it is that we like about the stories that we're telling. And we spent a lot of time focusing on these bigger season stories where we're interviewing eight to 10 people, which is fantastic and a great way to tell stories. But Patia and I would talk a lot about an interview that we did with one victim of a crime that would stick with us, and we would end up having to cut so much of that in order to serve this bigger story. And we would talk about. But this could be a story in and of itself. This could be an episode. And so when we decided to do a show together, we found and wanted to do, like, more personal, intimate, and more in depth stories with people whose lives have been impacted by a crime. And so that we can hear the whole story from the incident all the way through the aftermath and just really sit with those stories and give them time and space.
- [04:10]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah, yeah.
- [04:11]
David Boury
It became really apparent that when someone was the victim of a crime, that crime was then, like. What's the word? Reverberating throughout their life. Even when we would talk to people where something happened 10, 20 years before, it was, like, still just so recent for them in a way. And that felt really powerful to us. And also just the freedom to tell stories that weren't in such a specific lens. Like on our last show, which was really cool, but also left us with, like, we'd send each other articles, and it's like, oh, it doesn't fit the show. And we didn't want to be bound by that anymore. And we just thought, I wonder if Karen and Georgia would hear this pitch.
- [04:51]
Hannah Smith
Yes.
- [04:53]
Karen Kilgariff
And we were like, hell, yes. Hell, yes. Hannah, when you were on my favorite Murder, I think it was like, three years ago. Or wasn't that Covid?
- [05:01]
Hannah Smith
Oh, my God, that's a long time ago.
- [05:03]
Karen Kilgariff
A blur. 25 years ago, that was one of our most popular episodes. Of course, I have listened to every episode of the Opportunist, which I know you also produced and worked on too. So, yeah, I mean, you guys, the second Danielle was like, oh, Hannah Smith and Patia Eaton have a pitch. We're just like, the answer is yes. We don't. If they have a podcast about popcorn, the answer is yes.
- [05:28]
David Boury
Well, that was our Next pitch.
- [05:30]
Hannah Smith
Yeah.
- [05:30]
David Boury
So happy to hear that.
- [05:31]
Karen Kilgariff
Yay.
- [05:32]
Langston Kermie
Yeah, Yay. Yeah, exactly.
- [05:34]
Hannah Smith
We're going hard for kettle corn. Yeah. Very controversial.
- [05:39]
Karen Kilgariff
Did you guys meet on the Opportunist? Is that where you first started working together?
- [05:42]
David Boury
We did, yeah. We met on the Opportunist.
- [05:44]
Hannah Smith
Yeah.
- [05:44]
David Boury
I emailed the CEO of the company that thought that, you know, oversaw the Opportunist, owned that show, and I was like, I want to work in podcasting, but I've never done it before. Like, would you. Can I interview on something? And I ended up getting an associate producer interview on the show. Didn't get it.
- [06:03]
Langston Kermie
Yeah, that's right.
- [06:05]
Hannah Smith
I was like, no way.
- [06:06]
David Boury
No, I was not.
- [06:09]
Hannah Smith
I did not make that decision.
- [06:10]
David Boury
Persistence is everything.
- [06:12]
Langston Kermie
Yeah.
- [06:12]
David Boury
And, yeah, from then on, I. So I joined the Opportunist in April of 2021.
- [06:18]
Hannah Smith
Yeah. Yeah. And so I. I did the first season. So you came on season two, and, you know, I had been. That was like, the biggest break of my career at that point. I'd been working in podcasting since 2017 and had also been thinking a lot about, like, wanting a creative partner. You know, I'd worked. I'd been around people that had creative partnerships, had really, like, you know, envied that and hoped for that, and came to start working on the show. And even though it was like, her first foray into podcasting, she'd worked in film and television a lot. She's, you know, a great writer and was doing this career transition, which is something that I had also done into podcasting a few years before. So it just. As soon as we met, it was like, oh, we're both, like, on this same trajectory, and we're fascinated by the same kind of stories. And it was just this instant sort of feeling of like, oh, yeah, we're gonna be making things together. And so it's just so exciting that now we're doing that with our own show.
- [07:15]
Karen Kilgariff
It's real.
- [07:15]
Langston Kermie
I love.
- [07:17]
David Boury
Yeah. When I first started working with Hannah, you know, I was just an associate producer, and I was like, can I just start giving feedback on scripts? And so I was really comfortable with that, working in scripted tv. And so I was just like, hannah, here's an alt for all your narration. Just take it or leave it. And eventually it was like, yeah, okay, I like that. And from there, you know, the show was a success, and we were like, we want to make something else, but we don't have any time. And then all of a sudden, we did.
- [07:46]
Langston Kermie
I love that you guys have this, like, this combination of the, like, podcast, like, wanting to be in podcasting, and then the pandemic kind of overlapping, and it's just this, like, really cool. I don't know, like, this, like, drive that you both had that just. You made it happen. You made it. And it's just so impressive and, like, it's so cool.
- [08:08]
Karen Kilgariff
It is. I was gonna ask. You got rejected the first interview. Did you go back immediately? Like, I would if I. I remember interviewing at the warehouse when I was 17, and I didn't get the job, and I'm still really upset about it.
- [08:22]
Hannah Smith
I.
- [08:22]
David Boury
You know, I was like, I. I wanted the job, and I remember being disappointed. But I also still had a job at that point. I was working at a production company that was under a pod at Warner Brothers, and I. I wasn't in, like, okay, I need a job right now. Which was helpful. But I also, you know, at that point was like, there are other podcast jobs. And so I started applying, and I didn't get those either, but it gave me hope, because at that point, podcasting was like, you know, there was this boom that happened because especially with the pandemic, being able to make things remotely was everything. You can't do that in tv.
- [08:58]
Langston Kermie
Right.
- [08:59]
David Boury
And so I just kept applying, and actually, someone from that company reached out, and I interviewed again, and, you know, desperation, and I got the job.
- [09:09]
Langston Kermie
Yes, but you had experience by then because you did the really cool thing of just. And I think this is. We can totally relate to. Of just like, well, then I'm gonna do it on my own. Yeah, and you did that and, you know, prove your point that you're like, this is where you should be.
- [09:23]
David Boury
Yeah. It was, like, this moment for me of I had tried really hard to, like, make it as a TV writer, and I had been in a couple comedy rooms, and that was so exciting. I was a writer assistant. Then I got my first credit, and I'm in the wga, and then nothing. Right. And that was just, you know, I. I wanted more control over being able to, like, get a job if I was working really hard and getting better at it. And so podcasting gave me that. So, yeah, I found a missing person's case. I spent all my extra time working on it, and I just kind of taught myself how to, like, not be offended when someone hangs up on you and ask the right questions and, like, find people's information online.
- [10:02]
Langston Kermie
You guys are so good at that. I'm so impressed. And it, like, makes me sweat listening to you guys talk about, like, cold calling people.
- [10:10]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah.
- [10:10]
Langston Kermie
But you both do it in a way that is, like, so kind. You don't spring things on people. You don't have that everyday, like, predatory thing that some.
- [10:21]
Hannah Smith
We're not trying to, like, get people. We're not trying to. Gotcha. We can get some information out of you. You know, we really want people to feel comfortable and open up to us. But it does mean you have to get a lot out in, like, 20 seconds before they're like, I think this might be a spam call, and hang up on you.
- [10:36]
David Boury
Yeah, my area code is, like, Maple Valley, Washington. And they're like, excuse me, who? You live in Los Angeles. Click.
- [10:43]
Langston Kermie
You think that helps that it's like, Washington?
- [10:45]
David Boury
You know, only if it's someone in Washington. But sometimes it is. Yeah, it's. It's a. I think it's just. You have to get a little more comfortable with being hung up on people telling you not to call back and just accept that, like, that's their prerogative and it's part of it. But most of the time, people will hear you out whether or not they agree to interview. And that was something that was really exciting to me. I'm like, I get to just be nosy.
- [11:13]
Hannah Smith
Yeah.
- [11:13]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah.
- [11:14]
David Boury
This is unbelievable. I love this.
- [11:15]
Karen Kilgariff
But then when those interviews actually take place, in your first episode, in your interviewing Doroon about her attack, there's this amazing part when I was listening to it for the first time, where she is speaking for a while and getting people to really talk about these experiences is, I'm sure, a very delicate thing. She's talking and talking, and then you ask one quick question. I was like, she's there. Hannah is there. So you're. It's like you're not directing it. You're not interrupting or anything. Like, clearly you are leading that conversation in this way where you're allowing people to kind of open up to you. Is that how did you learn that skill?
- [11:52]
Hannah Smith
I don't know how I learned that skill. I think, like, maybe. I'm not sure. I mean, sometimes our interviews go for a very long time, and sometimes I'm like, well, maybe if I were a better interviewer, I could really accomplish this in one hour instead of two and a half. But I just think, like, listening to people, being able to just create that space and let people talk about an experience that they've been through that sometimes is very traumatic and hard for them to talk about. But one thing we've also encountered a lot is that especially a lot of times, when we interview people who had been scammed. They would say things like, wow, you know, people in my life knew that this happened to me, but, like, no one's really taken the time to sit down and just let me, like, tell the whole thing. And that feels good that we're able to let people do that. We're able to hear their story as well as share it with the world. And, yeah, I mean, that's a meaningful thing to me. So, yeah. Yeah. I don't know.
- [12:53]
David Boury
I mean, before we do an interview, we, you know, do whatever amount of research makes sense for that story and have questions prepared. And sometimes we ask two of these questions because they get answered on their own. But it's really like, what is something that we think is really interesting about this person's story or their. The way that they reacted to something that happened to them. And so those kinds of questions are always top of mind when we're listening. But I think it's also. We tell them before the interview, like, we want this to be your story. We're gonna help guide you through telling it because, you know, jumping around through time, oh, I remembered this thing that happened. And we wanna be there to help them, but. And make them feel comfortable. But, you know, we try really hard to just keep it as authentic as possible.
- [13:44]
Langston Kermie
Yeah, yeah, you guys have some really. It's a hard job. Your first episode with Jarun is so, I mean, emotional. It's this awful attack that she, I mean, fought back like a badass, but experienced. Tell us more about the season and then the episodes that you guys are gonna be doing. Is it just kind of more of these incredible cases?
- [14:06]
David Boury
Yeah, I mean, we have. You know, that's part of our drive for doing this kind of show is all manner of stories. And, you know, we have people like De Rune who, you know, they're on a morning run and something awful happens to them and they're fighting for their life. And then there's the aftermath of that. We have people who are in a domestic violence situation with a spouse and the complications of that because you own a home with someone, you have children with someone, and how do you get out of that situation or how did this person get out of that situation? And then, you know, we love a scam story. When we have cult story.
- [14:45]
Hannah Smith
Cult stories, we have a wrongful conviction story coming up that is really powerful.
- [14:51]
David Boury
Identity theft.
- [14:52]
Hannah Smith
We're gonna try to cover a lot of different types of crimes. Our really, like, unifying theme is the approach that we take to storytelling. And just hearing firsthand from someone whose Life was altered because of a crime.
- [15:07]
Karen Kilgariff
That's cool.
- [15:08]
Langston Kermie
Amazing.
- [15:08]
Karen Kilgariff
If you were forced and you might be to do a different podcast of.
- [15:13]
Langston Kermie
Any genre, popcorn aside.
- [15:15]
Karen Kilgariff
I mean, yeah, we've got the popcorn one on the decks that's in development now, but have you ever thought of doing. Just going completely out of the genre and doing anything different?
- [15:25]
Langston Kermie
Vanderpump rules, maybe.
- [15:27]
David Boury
I mean, I could talk about anything. Bravo. For sure. But no, I mean, I. We have just spent so much time at the like over the last year and seven months working on true crime podcasts. It would feel so unusual. But yeah, I could talk about anything. Bravo. That's what I could. You could bring that to the table.
- [15:47]
Hannah Smith
I could do a Survivor podcast. I love Survivor.
- [15:50]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah, it's a good show.
- [15:51]
Hannah Smith
So television, maybe. Even though we watch different television.
- [15:54]
David Boury
Very different television, there's some slight overlap within true crime. Really?
- [15:59]
Hannah Smith
Yeah.
- [15:59]
David Boury
But I've been trying to get Hannah to watch the Real Housewives, for example, to no avail.
- [16:04]
Hannah Smith
Hasn't happened yet.
- [16:06]
David Boury
I feel like it hasn't happened.
- [16:07]
Karen Kilgariff
Fight the good fight. Yeah, well, but the off record episode is a little bit different. It is kind of. It is new for you guys, right? Something that is a little more chatty and. And less fully produced, fully journalistic.
- [16:20]
Langston Kermie
Yeah, let me think about that for you guys listening. They have the episode, full episode of the 9th. And then the off record episodes are kind of the. It's almost like the kind of like.
- [16:30]
Karen Kilgariff
A mailbag episode or like a recap episode from the main episode or like a.
- [16:35]
Langston Kermie
More info.
- [16:36]
Hannah Smith
Yeah, you know, we've sort of like to think of them as. It could be a lot of different things. We love the idea of mailbag answering listener questions and being able to interact with people in that way. We also, you know, we are in a talk a little bit about the conversations that Peisha and I have making true crime podcasts. Like we have so many conversations to do with. Sometimes it's like cold calling people or ethical conversations about how we portray different stories. So we're gonna have some of those conversations like on mic, so that, you know, listeners can be part of that.
- [17:09]
David Boury
Great.
- [17:09]
Hannah Smith
And we'll also tell true crime stories.
- [17:11]
David Boury
Yeah, true crime stories. Also an opportunity for us to tell stories where we didn't get the right interview, but like, wow, this is a fascinating story. And now I get to tell Hannah all about it. Maybe we've like had it on our list for a while, but no one had had time to do a deep dive until now.
- [17:26]
Langston Kermie
Yeah, you guys are like, I swear you feel Like a parallel universe, us. But you guys have a lot more homework to do than we do.
- [17:33]
Karen Kilgariff
You actually do your homework.
- [17:34]
Langston Kermie
Do your homework. You guys are like, really smart.
- [17:37]
David Boury
It's chronic at this point. We're like, okay, we need to make this one really quick and easy. And then eight hours later.
- [17:44]
Hannah Smith
Yeah. But I'm hoping, like, part of the off record is an attempt to get away from that, to have, like, more conversations with each other without having to do tons of homework. But we'll see.
- [17:55]
Karen Kilgariff
Well, I do think the audience will be so fascinated because that is the piece that you never get from like a limited series or the series that are more journalistic and a little more formal and need to be. But I just love that idea that you guys kind of like, yep, we can do that and we can do this, and then you can tell us what you thought of that and then we're gonna do another one. It's like a really fun kind of like backstage feel.
- [18:20]
David Boury
Yeah, yeah, it's fun for us to talk about it. Cause we love the job so much. And also just this, like, hybrid of journalism and storytelling. And we're not investigators, but we are like making a podcast. And I think that's, you know, maybe a lesser known skill set for sure.
- [18:37]
Langston Kermie
And you guys did. You did it in such a cool way. As I said earlier, just the way you were, like, I want to be in podcasts. Or like, I know you guys were listening to Serial when it came out and it's like, oh, this is a thing we can do. And I feel like we had the. Had the exact same thought of just start it.
- [18:53]
Hannah Smith
Let's do this.
- [18:54]
Langston Kermie
And I think that's really, like, it's empowering. Yeah, totally. I think people are gonna really love to hear about that. I'm Mark Seale.
- [19:02]
Karen Kilgariff
And I'm Nathan King.
- [19:04]
Langston Kermie
This is Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli.
- [19:06]
David Boury
The five families did not want us to shoot that picture.
- [19:09]
Langston Kermie
This podcast is based on my co host, Mark Seals best selling book of the same title. Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli features new and archival interviews with Francis Ford.
- [19:17]
Hannah Smith
Coppola, Robert Evans, James Caan, Talia Shire, and many others.
- [19:21]
Langston Kermie
Yes, that was a real horse's head. Listen and subscribe to Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [19:32]
David Boury
Do you want to see into the future? Do you want to understand an invisible force that's shaping your life? Do you want to experience the frontiers of what makes us human?
- [19:41]
Hannah Smith
On tech Stuff.
- [19:42]
David Boury
We travel from the mines of Congo to the surface of Mars, from conversations with Nobel prize winners to the depths of TikTok to ask burning questions about.
- [19:52]
Langston Kermie
Technology, from high tech to low culture.
- [19:55]
David Boury
And everywhere in between. Join us Listen to tech stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's up, y'all? This is Eric Ondre, but I made.
- [20:04]
Karen Kilgariff
A podcast called Bombing about absolutely tanking on stage.
- [20:09]
David Boury
I tell gnarly stories and I talk.
- [20:11]
Karen Kilgariff
To friends about their worst moments of bombing in all sorts of ways. Bombing on stage, bombing in public, bombing in life.
- [20:17]
David Boury
Like the time I stole a girl's.
- [20:18]
Karen Kilgariff
Phone during a sentence, she jumped on.
- [20:19]
David Boury
Stage and threw a big haymaker punch to my nose.
- [20:23]
Hannah Smith
Listen to Bombing with Eric Andre on.
- [20:25]
David Boury
Will Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever.
- [20:29]
Langston Kermie
You get your podcasts.
- [20:33]
Karen Kilgariff
In your years of research and having to do those deep dives. And I know it's, you know, depending on the subject, but is there anything you've ever uncovered, learned a factoid, like something crazy? I just always picture you gu, like late at night with one light and you're like, you know, on LexisNexis, like, trying to figure stuff out. Like, do you, can you just like recap one moment where you had like that kind of journalistic Nancy Drew discovery or anything?
- [21:02]
David Boury
There have definitely been things said on preliminary calls where we're just getting some background information where we're like, we have to level with them. We're not gonna touch that. You know, like that's not gonna come up. And if you, if it's comes up in an interview, we're not gonna, it's not gonna make the episode. Whether that's maybe, you know, something that we don't agree with, value system wise or accusations, you know, people have very different experiences within a crime story and will really get fired up about it. And so, you know, figuring out how to make sure that person feels heard. But also we want to do it, right?
- [21:42]
Hannah Smith
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, there's the research and then also there's learning things from conversations with people just because, like, you know, there's the headline and then there's an article and then maybe there's a longer form article if you're lucky. And then, you know, I'm like, okay, where's the documentary or where's the book or where, you know, and then you hit like a stop where there's just nothing.
- [22:08]
Langston Kermie
More like a Reddit thread maybe yeah.
- [22:10]
Hannah Smith
Maybe there's a Reddit thread. And you know, I think, like, I've always just been like, what's, what else? Like, I just have more questions. And so then through, you know, finding someone who was like, oh, yeah, that was, you know, you know, yeah, I was there or whatever and I knew that person. And then, oh, great, will you talk to me? And then, you know, having a two hour long conversation with that person, there's so much that will come out. Like, I'm thinking about like season three of the Opportunist we did with the.
- [22:36]
David Boury
Cat cult and which I found that story by googling, quote, cult plus sign cat quote, end quote. And I'm like, I wonder what's out there.
- [22:47]
Hannah Smith
Just for kids.
- [22:48]
Langston Kermie
Oh, it's so fun.
- [22:48]
David Boury
And this one little article came up and I was like, I don't know if I should pitch this to Hannah. Is this too much? She's like, I love it.
- [22:58]
Hannah Smith
This is the exact kind of story I want to tell.
- [23:00]
Langston Kermie
Genius.
- [23:01]
Hannah Smith
And then when we had a conversation with Mary, who is married to this man who used to be married to the cult leader, during the interview, she revealed to us that there was an attempted murder involved with the story where she had befriended this guy years later who was her, you know, assassin, essentially, that the cult leader had tried to convince him to kill her and her husband and he didn't. And then years later they became friends. So that was a moment where this whole other aspect to the story opened up and we're like, wait a minute, what? Like there's also like, you know, a potential attempted murder here. So there's, you know, that that was a big moment, but there's a lot of moments that happen like that.
- [23:42]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah, that's amazing.
- [23:44]
Langston Kermie
How has it been like in your line of work? How is law enforcement communication going for you guys? It seems like that would be a tough one.
- [23:54]
David Boury
It is and it's not. It's like if there's a case where, you know, it's case closed, someone's been convicted, sentenced, usually there's law enforcement who will happily talk about it because it's maybe something they consider a career accomplishment and maybe it is, but if the case is still open, it can be a lot more difficult. And you know, when we do those interviews, they can still be very useful for information, but you're not going to get someone to like, reflect or give you anything beyond, you know, a very like, by the book answer. And that can be challenging, but I would say overall, pretty good.
- [24:34]
Langston Kermie
I do wanna know more about the interviews you do with people involved in the case. The first off record episode is so incredible about these missing teens. And you got friends to talk, you got family to talk. Yeah, I mean, that's like. And you went. You went there in person, too. Like, that just has to change everything.
- [24:53]
David Boury
It did. It changed everything. You know, I went to the DA's office and, you know, sat down with an investigator who had previously been a detective on the case when he was earlier in his career. It was incredible. I got to. I fell in love with it because I met so many people I would have never met. And, you know, I got immersed in this story and really got to understand how current it all was for them still. You know, their. Their friends had gone missing, you know, 20 years earlier, and they're talking about these memories that are so vivid for them and also unpacking it with me for really the first time for a lot of them, because it was a small town and the same theories had circulated. And I just thought, like, this is such a privilege that these people are taking this complete stranger into their home. I had a little Olympus recording thing that I got her, like, 20 bucks, and I'm, you know, they're just talking to me. And they didn't care that I had no previous podcasting experience. They only cared that someone wanted to hear their story. And that really hit home and was like, I'm so motivated to do this now. And then, you know, I got my job on the Opportunist, got much busier. Wasn't really sure how to end the story. I was so new to it.
- [26:16]
Hannah Smith
And you recorded, like, multiple episodes and put them together. Yeah, I don't remember how many, but I'm one of the few people that have the privilege of listening to it. And it was really good.
- [26:25]
Langston Kermie
Amazing.
- [26:25]
Hannah Smith
But the case was still unsolved, and you didn't have. You weren't sure how to end it.
- [26:29]
David Boury
I wasn't sure how to end it. And I also felt conflicted about some of the tape because, you know, there were two missing teens, Jeremy Bechdel and Aaron Foster. And Jeremy's family was very open with me. Aaron's family was much less. And I started feeling conflicted about putting so much out there without their support. And that was something I was thinking a lot about. I didn't have the confidence in my storytelling ability that I have after having done it now. But it was just so interesting to, like, I'm gonna get case file, access to a case file. I'm gonna get to go ask these people questions. And you know, I didn't break news with this story, but I was able to sort of piece together enough to be like, I know that they left that party. And I know that after that party, they went to Aaron's house. And I had only ever heard or read that they had left that party and never been seen again. And that was enough for me to be like, sometimes it just takes, like, not a professional, but, like, fresh eyes and energy into doing something. And I didn't solve that case. They did. And they. With the help of this YouTube diver exploring the nug.
- [27:41]
Langston Kermie
Spoiler spoiler spoiler but it was so.
- [27:45]
David Boury
Amazing because I had built so many relationships in that town that when as they're literally pulling the car up from the river, people are calling me.
- [27:54]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah.
- [27:55]
David Boury
And I was like, oh, my gosh. And so then I felt this weight of like, well, I now have all of these relationships with Jeremy's family members. I need to call them.
- [28:04]
Hannah Smith
And, like, did you inform them?
- [28:07]
David Boury
One of them. I informed him because he had been calling me and we had been playing phone tag. And then it felt strange and I just said, I don't have any details. I've just heard that Erin's car was found in the river and you need to call Sheriff Paige.
- [28:22]
Langston Kermie
That's incredible.
- [28:24]
David Boury
Yeah, it was. You know, I didn't want to make those phone calls, certainly, but when you're talking to people every day for a long time, they're wanting to talk about it with you, and it was just a great experience. And also, I think with missing persons cases, for me, there's that hope. And Even though after 20 years, I think hope dwindles, but I really liked that aspect of it and that was just. It was exciting.
- [28:50]
Karen Kilgariff
It's so cool.
- [28:51]
Langston Kermie
As a cold case junkie, I really was just. That story was incredible.
- [28:56]
Karen Kilgariff
Well, and also, that's such a good point that when something happens to people, a trauma, like, all of a sudden just your child is gone, there's no explanation and people help you for a little while and then just nothing. The idea that you are left to process that or just. Or not, because you don't get any answers. It's not the same as, like, there's a death in the family. It's just. It's a total void. And like, you know, you describing it that way, it's like, it must be incredibly powerful to have someone come and say, I care about what this is and I wanna help in some way. I do. That is what I love about the true crime community is like, there are so Many sincere, sincerely caring, like professionals and non professionals that are like, what can I do? What could I look up online? Like, what could I research?
- [29:47]
David Boury
Yeah. And it also was very eye opening in the way of like, it's easy to say, oh, you know, why didn't the, why didn't local law enforcement do more. Obviously they didn't run away to Florida. They, they left a paycheck behind. Like all of these like quote unquote, like obvious things that had happened or not happened and blame. But when you talk to all of these different people, it's like, you know, well, wait a minute, that, that office had one computer at the time. So that means these notes are handwritten and then typed out. And how many notes are you taking if you're writing something by hand?
- [30:19]
Langston Kermie
Totally.
- [30:20]
David Boury
And what does this game of telephone really look like? Even if you're trying your best? What was the training at the time? It wasn't. So then it was like, okay, I have to take a step back because it's not one person's fault. It wasn't like there were a lot of things that should have gone differently and didn't. But it made me take a step back and think about how little you really get from reading an article. And I just wanted to know more.
- [30:45]
Karen Kilgariff
Do you have a story like that of something that's happened where you're just getting involved kind of turned things a little bit that's like that maybe journalistic satisfaction that you get to have sometimes?
- [30:57]
Hannah Smith
I don't know if I have a story quite like that where that, where it gets solved. A missing person's case, I mean, that's pretty incredible.
- [31:04]
David Boury
Yeah, but certainly, like, you know, we've talked to people that have reached out to Hannah from just knowing her, from the opportunist and said, well, what about my story? Can you look into this? And you know, I think that is a cool place to be. Like, someone thinks that I care enough to look into this and like actually do some research. And I think that that's also a really like, great thing about being able to connect with listeners.
- [31:32]
Hannah Smith
Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, like, you know, I've never, yeah, I've never solved a case or anything like that.
- [31:40]
Langston Kermie
That's season two.
- [31:41]
Hannah Smith
Yeah, that's coming. But you know, just being able to bring it to, like, people's attention, to continue to keep attention on these things as we were just talking about, I think means a lot. And you never know what that can do. It's like, you know, Pesha didn't solve this case, but the fact that there was so much attention on it, I don't know, it keeps it fresh in people's minds, and you just never know what that could lead to. So that's what I usually tell people when they're like, I have this case and, well, I'm not able to solve it. I'm not an investigator. But we can certainly tell that story and then hopefully that will help you connect to other people or resources to hopefully make some leeway there.
- [32:24]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah.
- [32:27]
Langston Kermie
I'm Langston Kermie.
- [32:29]
David Boury
Sometimes I'm on tv. I'm David Boury, and I'm probably on TV right now.
- [32:33]
Langston Kermie
David and I are going to take.
- [32:35]
David Boury
A deep dive every week into the most exciting, groundbreaking, and sometimes problematic black conspiracy theories. We've had amazing past notable guests like Brandon Kyle Goodman, Sam J. Quinta Brunson, and so many more. New episodes are out every Tuesday, many episodes out on Thursdays where we answer you, the listeners, conspiracy theories.
- [32:58]
Langston Kermie
Listen to My mama told me on.
- [33:00]
David Boury
The iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever.
- [33:04]
Langston Kermie
You get your podcast.
- [33:08]
Karen Kilgariff
He was a boy scout leader, a husband, a father, but he was leading a double life. He was a monster hiding in plain sight. Journey inside the mind of one of history's most notorious killers, btk through the.
- [33:27]
David Boury
Voices of the people who know him best.
- [33:30]
Karen Kilgariff
Listen to Monster BTK on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
- [33:38]
Langston Kermie
More.
- [33:38]
David Boury
More. More, More, More.
- [33:39]
Karen Kilgariff
Better.
- [33:40]
Langston Kermie
Hey, I'm Melissa Fumaro. And I'm Stephanie Beatriz. You may know us from television. Nein.
- [33:45]
David Boury
Nein.
- [33:46]
Langston Kermie
And now we're here with our very own podcast, More Better with Stephanie and Melissa. Join us as we take on topics like listening to yourself, the challenge of self care, and making friends as an adult. We're gonna share our struggles, we're gonna speak to experts, and we're gonna share everything we learn with you. Listen to more Better with Stephanie and Melissa on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. You guys have that thing that I think that people who are into true crime, like we are Murderinos, which is this, like, curiosity about the way humans work and the way these decisions people make affects, like, everyone's life around them. And you can hear that in the podcast, this curiosity that you guys have that's so, so pure. And I totally identify with it.
- [34:35]
Hannah Smith
Totally. I mean, I think that so many people who love true crime feel that way. Right. And. And it makes me think of actually this episode of a podcast that you Sent me years ago. It's a criminal episode. We know you all love criminal as well. Yeah. So good. And she was interviewing Errol Morris. You know, he was talking about crime stories, and always just stuck with me. He talked about, like, the heart of crime stories is just humanity. You know, it's. And I just agree with that so wholeheartedly. You know, in all of these stories, of course, there is some incident, some dramatic incident. Right. But, like, within that, there are stories of people surviving or people seeking justice and the complications of what that looks like. What does that even mean? And how people hurt each other and how people try to heal and what that does to an individual person and to a community. I mean, it is just humanity. It's like how we all live together. And that is just endlessly compelling.
- [35:39]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah. It makes me think of the episode and the opportunist. And look, the opportunist was great. Congratulations. Your new podcast is amazing. Thank you. Thank you. But, you know, I just have the memory of you talking about the people who invested in the guys who were claiming that they were going to go find this sunken treasure boat. And so it's that kind of story where it's like, this is not a murder. This is not, you know, one of those kind of stories. It's a scam story that, as it went, it just became more and more heartbreaking as I listened to it of, like, these people who. It's like, it's easy to go like, oh, well, you made a mistake, or, that was a dumb investment. And it's like, these guys went through and just methodically drained the bank accounts of retirees and, like, just destroyed these families. And then it was just kind of like, well, too bad for you. And I'm sure that there are people who, like, when. If they go through an experience like that, being able to hear somebody else be able to say it and have, you know, the validity, like, be able to give it the gravitas it deserves of, like, this is horrible. It should not be happening. We should have systems set up or how do you. What are the next steps you take when someone doesn't just, you know, rip you off, but, like, you lose all.
- [36:54]
David Boury
Your money and you never think it's gonna be you, like, ever. You know, we've probably never interviewed someone and been like, oh, I could see how that happened to them. It's like, no, that could be all of us.
- [37:06]
Hannah Smith
Yeah. No one is like, well, I kind of expected that to happen to me.
- [37:09]
David Boury
Right.
- [37:10]
Langston Kermie
I'm very gullible.
- [37:12]
David Boury
You never think it's gonna be you. And I think there's also this, like, self exploration that happens where you're like, when that feeling creeps in, like something's not right here, this other part of you is in survival mode, being like, everything's fine, I'm sure it's okay, it's all gonna come together. And like those two voices are battling it out in your head until there's this point of no return. And you know that someone being naive all the time, that's just like life. You have to trust people sometimes. And, you know, maybe a gold bar at the bottom of the ocean sounds far fetched, but it's not like this random person knocked on someone's door and said, I know where to find, you know, a sunken treasure boat. It's like this is a trusted person in the community supported by another trusted person in the community. And that goes a long way for.
- [38:05]
Langston Kermie
People, which makes it all the more evil.
- [38:07]
David Boury
Yeah, that was a tough one.
- [38:09]
Hannah Smith
That was tough.
- [38:09]
Karen Kilgariff
Ye satisfying that we get to host a podcast where there's the potential, where obviously there's the relation of there's a crime, and then somebody gets to tell their story, be a survivor, be, you know, get their voice out there. But then that someone listening at home who might not have any of that support or any of that kind of platform, gets to relate or have somewhere to go or a next steps kind of plan.
- [38:37]
David Boury
Yeah. And just feel seen, like, wow, a version of that happened to me and here's someone talking about it in a way that's not pejorative or demeaning. It's just like, that could be like, I'm not, you know, the only person this has ever happened to. Something's not wrong with me. Someone did something wrong to me. And, you know, that, like, goes back to even when I was, you know, researching that case in Tennessee. It's like this idea that someone feels heard becomes really important in the work that we're doing and is, I think, something we don't want to lose in our storytelling.
- [39:13]
Langston Kermie
Yeah. I think that's impossible for you guys to lose. I think that's just second nature for you. It's so cool.
- [39:18]
David Boury
It's definitely like the most fun I've ever had. It's great.
- [39:22]
Hannah Smith
It's exactly what I want to be doing. Yay.
- [39:25]
Langston Kermie
I love it.
- [39:26]
Karen Kilgariff
It's so exciting. It's so. I feel like people are going to really, really love this podcast. Everyone that works here has listened to it. It's just like, it's a hit.
- [39:34]
Langston Kermie
It's a hit.
- [39:35]
Karen Kilgariff
It's just so great.
- [39:36]
Hannah Smith
Yeah. Great job. Than so much. We're so excited to be here. And, you know, you all have supported us so much, too. You know, shouting out the show back, you know, when we were doing it and always being, like, just cheering us on and that. We always saw that and always meant a lot to us. And so, you know, it just feels like a really great place for us to be. It just feels right. And so we're really. We're happy to be here.
- [39:57]
Karen Kilgariff
Does it feel exactly right?
- [39:59]
David Boury
It feels exactly. Smashing mugs together.
- [40:03]
Langston Kermie
Okay, then you just need you to sign your life away, right?
- [40:05]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah, exactly. Yay.
- [40:07]
David Boury
Yay.
- [40:08]
Karen Kilgariff
Honestly, and I mean, like, you know, this is business, but also, we adore you guys. We love the work you do. We're so proud of the show that you've made and the fact that we get to put it on our network. So thank you so much.
- [40:20]
Langston Kermie
Thanks for being here.
- [40:21]
David Boury
Thank you.
- [40:22]
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah.
- [40:22]
Hannah Smith
Thank you so much. Yeah, that's.
- [40:24]
David Boury
It's the best feeling ever. Yeah.
- [40:25]
Langston Kermie
Yeah. So the knife launches on March 27, and new episodes are up every Thursday.
- [40:30]
Karen Kilgariff
Please listen and don't forget to go and follow rate, review, subscribe, support, show up and on Instagram and Blue sky. You can find them at the Knife Podcast. Thanks, you guys.
- [40:43]
David Boury
Yeah.
- [40:43]
Langston Kermie
Thank you guys so much.
- [40:44]
David Boury
Thank you so much for having us. We're so excited.
- [40:46]
Hannah Smith
Yay.
- [40:47]
David Boury
Okay.
- [40:47]
Langston Kermie
Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?
- [40:57]
Karen Kilgariff
This has been an exactly right production.
- [40:59]
Langston Kermie
Our senior producer is Alejandra Keck.
- [41:02]
Karen Kilgariff
Our managing producer is Hannah Kyle Creighton.
- [41:04]
Langston Kermie
Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.
- [41:07]
Karen Kilgariff
This episode was mixed by Liana Squillace.
- [41:09]
Langston Kermie
Our researchers are Maren McClashan and Ali Elkin.
- [41:12]
Karen Kilgariff
Email your hometowns to my favorite murdermail.com.
- [41:15]
Langston Kermie
Follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at my favorite murder. Goodbye, mi genosa Wilmer Valderrama.
- [41:27]
David Boury
Jose Freddy Rodriguez, host of the new podcast Dos Amigos. In this series, we candidly reflect on our careers, life, art, and everything in between. And each episode emanates from our very own speakeasy. And it features us talking about pivotal moments, hilarious anecdotes, and invaluable collaborations that helped us become who we are today.
- [41:48]
Karen Kilgariff
Listen to Dos Amigos Thursdays on the.
- [41:50]
Langston Kermie
Ihight Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever.
- [41:52]
David Boury
You get your podcasts.
- [41:55]
Karen Kilgariff
More.
- [41:56]
David Boury
More, more, more, more. Better.
- [41:58]
Langston Kermie
Hey, I'm Melissa Fumaro. And I'm Stephanie Beatriz. You may know us from tele. And now we're here with our very own podcast more better with Stephanie and Melissa Join us as we take on topics like listening to yourself, the challenge of self care, and making friends. As an adult, we're going to share our struggles, we're going to speak to experts, and we're going to share everything we learn with you. Listen to More Better with Stephanie and Melissa on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [42:26]
Karen Kilgariff
He was a Boy Scout leader, a husband, a father, but he was leading a double life. He was a monster hiding in plain sight. Journey inside the mind of one of history's most notorious killers, btk, through the.
- [42:45]
David Boury
Voices of the people who know him best.
- [42:48]
Karen Kilgariff
Listen to Monster BTK on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.