473 - Parker Posey

Summary

Podcast Summary: My Favorite Murder - Episode 473: Parker Posey

Host Information:

• Title: My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
• Hosts: Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
• Network: iHeartPodcasts via the Exactly Right podcast network
• Release Date: March 27, 2025

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1. Introduction: Pop Culture and Personal Stories

At the outset of Episode 473, Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark engage in their trademark banter, discussing personal anecdotes and recent television shows. They express their admiration for the Netflix series "Adolescence," highlighting its innovative single-shot episodes and its handling of substantial social issues. The hosts also celebrate the casting of Parker Posey in the third season of "White Lotus," praising Mike White for spotlighting talented women in Hollywood.

Notable Quote:

• Karen Kilgariff [03:24]: "Adolescence is simply truly one of the best things I've seen in a long time on TV."

---

2. Main Story: The Murder of Leta McClinton

a. Background on Leta McClinton

The episode delves into the tragic story of Leta McClinton, a 35-year-old African American woman from Atlanta, Georgia. Born to prominent public servants Emory and Joanne McClinton, Leta was poised for a successful career, holding a political science degree and actively participating in community organizations.

Notable Quote:

• Karen Kilgariff [20:39]: "A true daughter of Atlanta."

b. Relationship with Jim Sullivan

In 1976, Leta begins dating Jim Sullivan, a 10-year-old white man from a working-class background. Despite the significant age difference and Leta's parents’ disapproval, their relationship quickly intensifies, culminating in an engagement mere months after they meet.

Notable Quote:

• Georgia Hardstark [25:03]: "He must have been so charming if he could sweep her off her feet."

c. Jim's Controlling Behavior and Marital Issues

Jim's inheritance of his uncle Frank Beinert's $3.2 million beverage business brings both wealth and turmoil. His domineering nature becomes evident as he restricts Leta's financial autonomy, mandates a strict weekly allowance, and isolates her from her career and social engagements. Despite signs of infidelity and Jim's erratic behavior, Leta remains entangled in the marriage until she decides to seek a divorce.

Notable Quote:

• Karen Kilgariff [31:17]: "It's like you have to build an interior life and an exterior life, no matter what your situation is."

d. The Day of the Murder

On January 16, 1987, Leta prepares for her divorce court hearing, marking a pivotal moment in her life. Unbeknownst to her, a flower delivery man turns out to be the perpetrator. Upon opening the door, he brandishes a gun, firing two shots that result in Leta's immediate death. Friends and neighbors witness the chaos, and the investigation swiftly begins.

Notable Quote:

• Georgia Hardstark [19:14]: "That's such a good ruse because it's not like I didn't order anything."

e. Investigation and Legal Proceedings

Leta's parents, convinced of Jim's involvement due to the timing and circumstances of the murder, spearhead a relentless pursuit of justice. Despite Jim's airtight alibi—he was in Palm Beach with a new wife at the time—the investigation uncovers suspicious phone calls and inconsistencies in Jim's story. Efforts to hold him accountable face numerous legal hurdles, including flawed prosecutions and statute of limitations issues.

Notable Quote:

• Georgia Hardstark [24:52]: "That's why I got it wrong."

f. Jim's Flight and Eventual Capture

Years of evasion culminate in 2002 when a tip from Beaumont, Texas, leads authorities to Jim's condo in Thailand. The breakthrough comes from Belinda, a receptionist who recalls witnessing Tony Hardwood (Jim's associate) involved in the murder-for-hire plot. Coordinated efforts between local law enforcement and federal agencies result in Jim's arrest. His subsequent trial in Georgia ends with a guilty verdict, sentencing him to life imprisonment without parole.

Notable Quote:

• Karen Kilgariff [37:12]: "There's no deliberation. Jim gets everything."

g. Conviction and Aftermath

Jim Sullivan's conviction provides a semblance of closure for Leta's grieving parents, Emory and Joanne McClinton. However, the case remains fraught with unresolved questions, especially concerning the involvement of other potential accomplices. As of 2023, Emory has passed away, while Joanne continues to live in Georgia, commemorating her daughter with a bronze sculpture at Atlanta's Oakland Cemetery.

Notable Quote:

• Georgia Hardstark [43:32]: "It's terrible... like, you're too cocky about your very overt murder for hire plan, things start to come together against you."

---

3. Additional Content: Podcast Network Highlights

Aside from the main story, the hosts promote other podcasts within the Exactly Right network, including "The Knife," a new true crime series focusing on survivors, and "Buried Bones," which investigates cold cases like the Wolf family murders from 1920. They also highlight a special anniversary episode of "Do You Need a Ride?" featuring John Milstein and Chris Fleming.

Notable Promotion:

• Karen Kilgariff [08:03]: "If you like the opportunist, then the Knife is going to be your favorite new true crime podcast."

---

4. Audience Engagement and Merchandise

Karen and Georgia encourage listeners to engage with the podcast's YouTube channel and social media platforms. They also promote "Exactly Right" merchandise, emphasizing their best-selling items like the "Still Life Crew Neck" and "Fuck You, I'm Married Joggers."

Notable Quote:

• Georgia Hardstark [12:00]: "It's so gothy. I love it so much."

---

5. Conclusion: Reflection and Community Support

The episode concludes with heartfelt messages celebrating listeners' personal triumphs, encouraging a community spirit of support and shared victories. The hosts emphasize the importance of finding reasons to celebrate amidst darkness, aligning with the podcast's blend of true crime and comedic relief.

Notable Quote:

• Karen Kilgariff [86:43]: "Look for three and we love you. Stay sexy and don't get murdered."

---

Final Thoughts: This episode of "My Favorite Murder" masterfully intertwines a gripping true crime narrative with the hosts' engaging and relatable commentary. By detailing the harrowing case of Leta McClinton's murder and the ensuing quest for justice, Karen and Georgia provide listeners with both investigative depth and emotional resonance, staying true to the podcast's unique blend of true crime and comedy.

Transcript

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is exactly right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

It's a great day for a new Hyundai. Goodbye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

Hello and welcome to my favorite murder. That's Georgia Hardstar, that's Karen Kilgariff, and.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We'Re trapped in a seventh grade in 1974.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I. I have an itch on my nose immediately. I was in an MRI the other day for my tits immediately got a fucking itch on my nose as soon as I was in there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, of course. That's your system going. Do not submit to the laws.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Think of something else. Think of something else.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Mri. Yeah, those things are the worst. Yeah, I absolutely got out of the first one I had to go into.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You got out? Oh, you claustrophobic?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah. No one warned me about anything that is involved in going through that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So the loud noises and the thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sit still, all of it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You have to do not move while you know. Mine was for my brain, so I had to be real still. Oh my God. And then it's like clank, clonk, nuclear war.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's loud and scary and weird.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so scary. And then someone was like, you didn't take a Valium? And I was like, no one offered no one offered.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I kind of find it relaxing, to be honest with you, to be in there. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you mean kind of like how a baby likes being wrapped up like a burrito? Maybe?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. It's like I can't listen to a book. I can't do anything but listen to the clanging. The clanging starts to sound like music at some point.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wait, how many times have you been in an MRI machine?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Weirdly, quite a few. Weirdly over 10. No, no, no, no. Like under five.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Maybe four.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And I don't mind it, but yes, you can't be claustrophobic.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think they should walk you through the vibe before you get in there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

For sure. Definitely.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's gonna sound like the building is starting to burn down around you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's just the way the machine works.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Yeah. What's going on with you?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Less MRI stuff. So we tried to talk about this last week, but the episode last week there was so much actual in episode conversation that we ended up recording for 2 hours and 20 minutes and having to cut it down to that episode last week. So we got rid of a bunch of TV just chit chat at the top of just shows we were watching. So for me, the thing that should live to this week, which lots of people are talking about now, is the Netflix show Adolescence.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Which is simply truly one of the best things I've seen in a long time on tv.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, it's so hard to watch. It's so hard to watch. And I don't have children. I can't imagine what it's like watching with children.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Horrible. But also the whole thing of like they're doing episodes in one continuous shot. They're doing. It's like they're tackling massive like social issues of the day, global social issues.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All in one shot. Kind of like a play. Leave it to the British once again to just be nailing a six part series.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I can't get past the one shot thing. Cause I just keep thinking about what if you're the one extra or the one rando who just fucks up and they have to start from the beginning of the show. It stresses me out more and so I can't really pay attention as much.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They've gotta have outs, they've gotta have little kind of cuts and clips and ways to fix things. And I also think it's because Stephen Graham is the actor that plays the dad, but he also wrote it with his writing partner. So as an actor, I feel like when they were making those Plans. He was probably thinking of all of those extras, true teenagers, that they're getting to, you know, 50 at a time to act in these scenes. Like, they must have planned for that in some way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, there's gotta be. Yeah. Cause like, one kid looks at the fucking camera and the shot's ruined.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So maybe they have multiple cameras going at the. I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. They must have a backup plan. But also, there's. Now everything's going around on social media. So there's this amazing clip of the boy who is the star, who's never done anything before and is incredible. Can't remember his name. And then the woman he's in a scene with. I believe her name's Erin O'Connor. Cause she's from another show that I wanted to recommend from before. And it's the same team as the people in adolescence, except for it's a Victorian boxer female bandit series called Swinging Away or something like that. It's great. But anyway, they talk about how this BO accidentally yawned in their scene. That's super intense. And it's like the psychologist and the boy kind of arguing. And at one point he kind of just like loses himself or whatever. And he tells the story. He's like. He yawns. And she just improvises. Am I boring you?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And they get. They just, like stay right into it. So there's like real theatrical training.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is the Brits. This is what they have over us, which is they respect acting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. But you know what they don't have?

[Karen Kilgariff]

What?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Parker Posey. And that is my thank you, Jesus TV show moment right now. No, no, tm.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nobody wants to live in Thailand.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Taiwan.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Taiwan. Sorry.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We were so bummed when we found out Jennifer Coolidge wasn't going to be back for this season. But the only person that could. That Mike White could have replaced her with that I'm not mad about, I didn't know until I saw her was Parker Posey. Kaepernick. Where's my Larazepam?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No. Now I have to drink myself to sleep. It's like, so satisfying to walk around my house talking to the dogs in the Parker Posey voice. It is so. And also, who deserves the star turned on White Lotus season three more than Parker Posey.

[Georgia Hardstark]

True.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Almost said more than.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. It's incredible. I love it. Thank you, Mike Wike, for bringing her to our shores. I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Thank you, Mike White, for highlighting the super talented women of Hollywood in the way only you can.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Truly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Since we're doing this in one take.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Should we, should we not mess up? And nobody yawns.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Keep on going. Actually, I yawn sometimes when I'm stressed out. So, like, I, I thought it's kind of brilliant too that they kept it because it makes sense completely.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or he's posing like, I'm bored and then it's like, yeah, you've seen kids do stuff like that, especially when they're in trouble.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Little fucking brats for murder. Hey, we have a podcast network called Exactly Right Media. Here are some highlights.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, that's me. Okay, breaking news, guys. It's finally here. The Knife a true crime podcast premieres today on the Exactly Right Network. Yay. Our newest podcast, please go follow the Knife. Host Hannah Smith and Patia Eaton bring you the untold stories of people whose lives have been forever changed by crime. This is about the survivors, about the people we always talk about who are left behind, you know, trying to deal with their new reality post crime. And they do it so beautifully.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If you like the opportunist, then the Knife is going to be your favorite new true crime podcast. Hannah and Pasha pitched this idea to us and we were just like, of course we would do anything to work with you guys. We've been talking it up, we've been building it up and the day is finally here and we're so excited. So when you're done listening to us on this episode, please go over to the Knife's feed, listen to episode one, rate review like follow. Please do everything you can to support this show. We love it. We know you're gonna love it too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, for sure. So then on Buried Bones, Kate and Paul start a two part series on the Wolf family murders. What starts as a normal day in a quiet North Dakota farming community in 1920 takes a dark turn when a neighbor discover farmer Jacob Wolf, five of his children and a hired hand all brutally murdered. So you have to listen as Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes try to crack this 105-year-old cold case.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If anyone can do it, they can do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Absolutely.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm so excited to listen to that series. Yeah, sounds amazing. Then over on do youo Need a Ride? Chris and Karen welcome the very hilarious John Milstein to discuss extreme skateboarding tricks that I like to practice outside of Costco at around 7 in the morning with my skateboarding buddies. If you haven't seen John Milstein's videos, he probably posts the most hilarious videos where he puts on like the same outfit that people at Staples wear. To work. And then he walks up and down the aisles talking about how we all have to go to staples and take over. And like, literally is just walking around a real staples.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Pretending to incite revolution or whatever. He did a thing where he set up. He set up a little thing in the park and he put about like maybe 10 or 15 chairs out and then he put up a picture, a very large printout of a picture of his mother and then began to give a speech about how much he loved his mother. And people came and sat down and watched him do it. Like, he just is very inventive and very, very hilarious comedian.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love it. And also, we wanna wish Bridger Weiniger A happy 5th anniversary of I said no gifts. I can't believe it's five years.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Isn't that crazy?

[Georgia Hardstark]

The hilarious Chris Fleming joins him to celebrate with a two hour podcasting extravaganza filled with betra chaos and some special surprises. And I bet there's a gift for him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I bet there's a gift that he gets upset about, but I don't know. So you can listen to that today. Then next week you can go to our YouTube channel and you can watch the entire episode on video because it's over in the video studio. It was a big deal. Gotta love Chris Fleming. So go over to YouTube.com exactlyrightmedia to watch that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's so many videos over there. You guys check it out. And finally, in merch news are super popular, always sold out still life crew neck that Karen is holding up, which you can watch. If you're looking at our YouTube page right now, it's back in stock. You gotta get there before it's gone. So go to exactlyrightstore.com and get it before it's gone again. This is like a really popular print. It's so gothy. I love it so much.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Get it before it's sold out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, you can get the fuck you, I'm married joggers. They're restocked now. They're hostile on the outside, but they're so soft and cozy on the inside. And then if you wear those two items together, this sweatshirt and then some fuck you. I married joggers. Men are legally not allowed to come within 10ft of you. That's so true. That's our guarantee to you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love it. I want Cookie in my fuck you. I marry joggers and nobody approaches me. It's great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I should put on the fuck you, I'm divorce joggers. And see if anyone approaches me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They will. I said hey can I hey. There are probably a billion furniture options out there. We didn't count but that number feels right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

That's squarespace.com murder code murder goodbye. There are a Lot of things that help you feel at peace. A cup of tea, a great playlist.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Roasting a troll on the Internet. Ooh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, now SimpliSafe is offering AI technology that can read faces. So your alarm isn't going to be going off because, you know, a raccoon walked by and sat on your front porch for a little while.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I turn mine on even when I go to walk. Cookie like mine is always on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. Will they know about your neighbor that you don't want to talk to, though? I don't. I don't think think that's something we can ask for. But in this day and age, that's the kind of technology that for a dollar a day, you're getting a bargain.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Visit simplisafe.com fav to claim 50 off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and get your first month free. That's simplisafe.com fav there's no safe like simply safe.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye. Am I about to tell you a story?

[Georgia Hardstark]

You are.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. Do you have all your beverages? Do you have at least two?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I have at least two beverages. I'm taking my shoes off, actually, under the. Gotta get those foot listeners.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, here's a great email that Maren found just to kick this off. So it's a letter from a listener. It says, greetings team mfm, longtime murderino and now author of the Devil Went down to Georgia, which was excerpted. Excerpted in People. It's spelled excerpted, but I think it's pronounced excerpted. Just landed on Oprah's Daily's list of best true crime books.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Of all time. And then in parentheses, it says gulp. It's one of the very few books about a murdered black woman. And the story is incredible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my gosh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They go on to explain the story. I will not do that now. And then it says, I first wrote about the story as a writer for Atlanta magazine and have now revisited it, looking at it through the lenses we peer through today the power dynamics between men and women, domestic abuse, racial and economic disparities in the justice system, systemic racism, and how we continue to give rich white guys the benefit of the doubt.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I truly believe this one will resonate with your audience. Please let me know if you're interested in covering and I'll send over a book. Thanks, Deb.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Deb, like the author of this book, sent us an email.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just to say, hey, you might wanna think about doing my story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The Devil Went down to Georgia's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The Devil Went down to Georgia's. The name of the book. Maren read that book without finding this letter and she noted that it was an amazing read. She loved reading it. This is a researcher who has to read a lot of books. So when researchers say, I loved the book, that's really very meaningful.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What's the author's full name? Deb.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Her name is Deb Miller Landau. And the Devil Went down to Georgia is basically the primary source used in today's story. But let me intro it for you. Okay. We were all very excited that there was actually that waiting for us from who knows, 2017. Who knows when she sent it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So this story starts. It's January 16, 1987. A cold, overcast winter morning in Atlanta, Georgia, and Lita McClinton is at home in her townhouse in the affluent Buckhead neighborhood. Now, this is sometimes referred to as the Beverly Hills of the South. Famous residents like Tyler Perry, Robert Downey Jr. Elton John have all lived there at some point. And Leta has a big day ahead for her that morning. It was just her 35th birthday.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A couple days before. But today she has an important court date. A judge will be deciding how she and her estranged husband of 10 years assets are going to be divided once their divorce is finalized. So essentially, today is kind of the first day of the rest of her life. You know, she's like finally out of this marriage. Her best friend Poppy has come to visit. Poppy brought her three year old daughter because Poppy wanted to be there with Leda on this day and kind of go through it with her, make sure she was okay. It's kind of such a potentially stressful day.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But Lita isn't expecting anybody else at the house. So when the doorbell rings at 8:15am she has no idea who it could be. She puts her robe on, she goes downstairs, she looks through the peephole, and she sees it's a flower delivery man. And so she opens the door and says, good morning. He's holding a big box of long stem roses that are wrapped in a big pink ribbon. She thinks maybe they could be a belated birthday gift from a friend, so she does not see it coming.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, that's such a good ruse because it's not like I didn't order anything from wherever the person's from, but it's like someone random sent you flowers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is totally an anonymous thing you could get away with for opening. Getting someone to open a door.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Absolutely. I mean, we've seen it in a lot of movies, and it's the kind of thing where, especially at this point in her life, it was the perfect ruse.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But instead of delivering flowers, this delivery man pulls out a gun, pulls the trigger twice. The first shot misses her, the second shot hits Lita in the head, and within minutes, she's dead. These are the first moments of a tragic, convoluted homicide case that takes investigators from Georgia to Florida to North Carolina, and then all the way to Thailand and back. This is the story of the murder of Leta McClinton. And so we already said it, but Deb Miller Landau Murderino, wrote the book the Devil Went down to Georgia about this case. And Marin also used an episode of 2020 as a source, and that episode was entitled A Puzzling Murder. And the rest of the sources are in our show notes, if you want to go see those. Okay, so let's talk about Lita McClinton. She's a black woman and an Atlanta native, and her parents, emory and Joanne McClinton, are wealthy, well connected public servants with long and impressive careers. Lita's father holds a high ranking post with the U.S. department of Transportation, and her mother will be elected to the Georgia State Legislature.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Back in the 60s, Joanne campaigned and organized with Martin Luther King Jr. She would later served as the campaign manager for Atlanta's first black mayor, who was also the first black mayor of any major Southern city. Maynard Jackson.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And as a local reporter named Mark Winney says, quote, lita was a true daughter of Atlanta. So, unsurprisingly, given their stature, Emory and Joanne have big expectations for their daughter Lita. She's educated in private schools. She participates in debutante and cotillion balls. She eventually graduates from college with a political science degree, and she has an exceptionally bright future ahead of her. But in 1976, Leta starts dating a man named Jim Sullivan, and her parents, to say the least, are not thrilled. So when Jim and Leda meet, Leeta's in her early 20s, and she's an assistant manager at a high end Atlanta boutique. So it's like she's just out of college, essentially trying to get on her feet and get a career going for herself. Like it's the what am I gonna do with my degree? Kind of days of her life. Totally.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I need a job, so this one fits kind of a thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I can get this done.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

One afternoon, Jim, who's in his late 30s, walks into that shop and is taken aback by Leeta's beauty, style, and charm. The problem is, Jim isn't Southern. He's from a white working class family. He's 10 years older than Lita. And on the surface, the only thing they really have in common is they were both raised Catholic. Jim is not the man that Lita's parents would have picked for her, but he showers her with attention, affection, and gifts. Something that Deb Miller Landau will later liken to love. Bombing, of course. And even though Jim Sullivan doesn't come from much, he is ambitious. He's dreamed of since he was a boy, and he does have some money to his name. He earned himself an economics degree in college. He finds work as an accountant, and then he settles into a comfortable life with a wife and four children in Massachusetts.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So that's the beginning of his life way back when he got out of college. But Jim is the kind of man who always wants more. So when one of his uncles, a man named Frank Beinert, who owns a successful beverage company in Macon, Georgia, starts thinking about retiring, he doesn't have Uncle Frank, doesn't have any children to take over the business. Frank knows how ambitious and business savvy Jim is, and so he takes his nephew under his wing to teach him the ropes and take over the company. Okay, so Jim and his family move down to Macon. But immediately there's an issue in that. It's just basically, Jim rubs people the wrong way, including his uncle's business associates. Jim is arrogant, he's stubborn. And as Deb Miller Landau writes, quote, nothing rubs Southerners rawer than unchecked superiority, Especially from a northerner.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So the relationship between Jim and his Uncle Frank sours within a year.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yikes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is that kind of personality that's like, oh, you immediately got there and started making enemies.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Super cocky and just like, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It gets so fraught at one point that Frank starts to rethink the succession plan without Jim. But before he can make that change, Frank Beiner suddenly dies of cardiac arrest. Since his succession plans were not officially amended, Jim ends up inheriting his uncle's $3.2 million beverage business. So this is the late 80s.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What do you think it's worth in today's money?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm gonna say 15.

[Karen Kilgariff]

16. Whoa. Yeah. A lot of money.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Inflation.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Baby, baby. So not long after Jim's marriage falls apart, his wife divorces him, takes their kids back up north, and her parting words reportedly are, quote, I curse you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

With my dying breath.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wrong island.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're thinking of Galapagos. Her parting words are, money doesn't make you happy. Ooh. Jim responds by signing away full custody of his four children. And he basically exits their lives and does not come back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, so now it's 1976. Oh, sorry. That wasn't the late 80s. It was the mid-70s.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So that's why I got it wrong.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's why I.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If you had told me the right year, I would have got it 16. 16.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I thoroughly, thoroughly apologize. So now it's 1976. Jim meets Lita in the upscale boutique. Their relationship blossoms. He tells her all about how he's inherited his late Uncle Frank's business, and just a few months after they meet, the two become engaged.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He must have been so charming if he could sweep her off her feet. Because she's dummy, you know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. And she's grown up in, like, Atlanta society.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally. She's a. This bright future.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's met charming men before, not new. Yeah. He must have been real good at it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Here's how good he is at it. He never mentions to Lita that he's been married and that he has four children.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. Just a little piece of info you're going to want to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Share.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just not him. He doesn't mention it. Lita's parents, Emory and Joanne, are devastated when they learn about this engagement. They tried to give Jim the benefit of the doubt, but they just can't stand him. It's that simple. And they're mostly troubled by Jim's cockiness and his disrespect and the way he always deflects when people ask him about his background. I always think that's so funny. It's like people do that all the time, where it's like, oh, you know, just this and that. It's like, sorry, you don't think that people who want to know certain information about you aren't going to see that as exactly what it is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. And then as two people who are like. Let me tell you my whole backstory, Even though we just met in the bathroom line, let me tell you Every single fucking thing that's ever happened to me in my life, I can't imagine deflecting and being like, I don't know what happened to me when I was a kid.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I just know it wouldn't work.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let me get my notes out. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, exactly. And it's like, well, I. You're a stranger. I owe you this full explanation.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I saw a thing that was like. It was a meme that said, like, I don't overshare to get closer to you. I. I overshare because my personality needs context. I was just like, yes. Do you know why I'm the way I am? You're not gonna like me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And also, you have free rein and will to not like me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But there's a reason I'm like this entire.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It takes context to like me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that's like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That hit me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But also, that's our idea.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's also old kind of trauma thinking.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Which is like, there's a lot of people are like, I just like your shirt. I like you automatically. And we're like, I know you don't like me, but let me just tell you really quick. You know who's not doing stuff like that? Jim Sullivan and his type who are like, you will like me and I'll sue you if you don't. So Emery and Joanne desperately want their daughter to get away from this guy. But of course, instead, Lita just falls deeper in love. So on the night before Lita and Jim's wedding, he drops a bombshell on her. He finally comes clean about his ex wife and his four kids. And then immediately he pulls out a prenup and urges her to sign it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And also here's where I think that age difference really comes into play. And this is the kind of age difference thing that like a lot of people never talk about, but it's like undue influence over people who have not been in the world very much is a big part of why that is. Those kinds of. That age problematic is a problem.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It totally is. Like the difference between you at 20 something and you at late 30s is you're a whole different person.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And somebody who you think he hung the moon.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And the night before you're locking, all your dreams are coming true. He's like, except for that if you don't sign this, we're not doing it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cause he knew that if he told her a couple weeks before, she'd have time to think it through. Oh, my God, that's fucked up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Maybe even call the Ex. And see. See how he was as a husband. So Lita, of course, is shell shocked by the flood of information. And Deb Miller Landau writes in her book, quote, the guests are. There's simply no backing out now. She's dizzy, in love, naive, and desperate to just get on with their life together.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cause it'd be on her if she had to cancel the wedding at that. You know what I mean? Like, people would be like, why are you canceling, not him?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's so fucked up. I don't. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The agreement where it's like, we're gonna share our lives together. If that's the plan, then you have to say, we're gonna share our lives together. But you won't be getting any of this money that I kind of throw around that I use to lure you into this relationship.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right, Right. Like there's a clause and a contract to our love.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No one's anti prenup.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. It just.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You can't talk about it the night before.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. And yeah, you can't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's just that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It has to kind of be the understanding of like, it's a mutual agreement.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Vincent. I don't have one. Just in case anyone's thinking that I'm trying to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, I'll call him on the phone on my drive home from this recording. We'll just see.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Don't worry, listeners, I'll get to the bottom of Georgia's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Part of his prenup is that he can't talk about his prenup.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No. So Lita's forced to sign the document. The next day, she marries Jim. Her mom, Joanne, will later call their wedding, quote, the worst day of my life.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So Leta and Jim settle into a huge house in Macon, Georgia, near the beverage company. They're now living in a well to do, tight knit community far removed from the sprawling metropolis of Atlanta. And at this time, interracial couples are rare in the South. Georgia had only recently repealed laws criminalizing marriages between black and white people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Jesus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Only recently. Cause it's the. At this point, the late 70s still, like, sickening. So even in the big city, their relationship drew attention. But now that they're in Macon, the judgment around their relationship is even more acutely felt. But while Jim, as a white male owner of a multimillion dollar business, inherently has power, Lita feels very alone in this upper crust, very white Macon community. And then Jim discourages her from working, so she's isolated even further. But she takes action. She manages to Become very active and influential in Macon's charities and organizations.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nice.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And in 1979, she ends up mentoring the first black Ms. Macon, a woman named Yvette Miller. So she starts getting involved in her community.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You gotta have those work girlfriends. It's like vital whether or not it's like a job or, you know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Charitable work. You gotta have those girlfriends and your.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Own kind of life. I mean, I think that is the thing that women have really come to terms with these days.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like you have to build an interior life and an exterior life, no matter what your situation is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Problem is, though, in this situation, behind closed doors, the Sullivans relationship is unraveling. Jim's behavior has become very odd with this kind of huge influx of money and business and everything. For example, he starts wearing his dead un, including his underwear.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What?

[Karen Kilgariff]

While at home. But then when he goes out in public, he changes into the expensive outfits that kind of fit the occasion.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's creepy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's insane. He also becomes so obsessed with saving money. Listen to this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He makes her use the plastic covering that comes with their dry cleaning to wrap leftovers so they don't have to buy Saran Wrap.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. First of all, the microplastics and toxins that are in like, that's. That's the first thing. Secondly, what the fuck?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. He clearly, it isn't helping him to have all this money. His life isn't becoming richer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

His ex wife was right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're going.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're going to be unhappy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So that's just a little example of the kind of Howard Hughes stuff he was starting to pull. Deb Miller Landau reports. Jim gives Lita a very tight weekly allowance of $150 a week, and that's worth around $700 a week today, which might sound like a lot, except Lida has to buy everything for the household, from groceries to dog food to gas for the cars and everything in terms of entertaining other wealthy people. So they have dinner parties. She has to have the house looking beautiful and immaculate with all the best furniture and all the best food and drink. Dishware. Exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It all comes out of that allowance. Also her hair and nail appointments and her clothes. She can live together and play the part. Jim's so restrictive with their finances. Lita struggles to pay for meals while she's on lunch dates, even though they're millionaires. Then the inevitable. Leta begins to suspect that Jim is having affairs. She finds a blonde hair in their bathroom. Then a Christmas card addressed to Jim arrives at their house, but inside is a lot of stuff about missing all of your kisses. It's specifically written to him. Then the inside is as if he lives by himself. So Leta reaches out to the woman who sends that card, and she basically confirms her husband's infidelity. But Jim not only sweet talks his way out of any consequences with Leda, but he begins to shower her with lavish gifts and a bigger weekly allowance. So essentially, she's kind of gas lit into forgetting about these indiscretions. Yeah. And then about 10 years into their marriage, Jim abruptly announces he's selling the beverage company and that they're gonna move to Palm Beach, Florida. And Leta clearly has no say in the matter. They move into a massive 17,000 square foot mansion in a community that's even wealthier and whiter than the one they just lived in. And for perspective, this new house that he buys is just down the street from Mar a Lago.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So it's in the heart of that. So Jim sets out to woo the Palm beach crowd. He wants to be one of them, one of the players. But he soon realizes having a black wife will not be advantageous for him in that crowd. In fact, he comes to understand Lita is simply not welcome in certain circles. We call those circles racist circles. So true to his ambitious form, Jim just starts leaving Leta at home. And it's around that same time he begins an affair with a local socialite named Suki Rogers, when Lita finds another woman's underwear in their bed. This is Deb Miller. Landau refers to it as, quote, the bra that broke the camel's back. So Lita packs her bags, heads back to the townhouse that they used to live in in Atlanta, and she files for divorce. After years of enduring her husband's callous, controlling behavior, Leeta's finally breaking free from him. But now she faces the grim reality that because she abandoned her career, or the beginnings of a career and she signed that prenup, that she basically might leave this awful marriage without a penny. So she decides she's going to sue Jim for divorce and fight for, you know, what she rightfully deserves. So this brings us back to that winter morning in 1987 when Lita is getting ready for that morning in divorce court. The doorbell rings. She opens the door to a flower delivery man. She greets him. He pulls a gun, shoots once and misses. Shoots again, and hits her in the head. And then he runs upstairs. Leda's friend Poppy and Poppy's toddler hear Those gunshots. And they run and hide in a closet. They don't know what's going on. When Lita's neighbors hear the noise, they look outside and they see a white middle aged man running down the street. So the police are called and they arrive on scene almost immediately. And although Leda's taken to the hospital, she's declared dead. They believe she died minutes after the gunshot wound. She's only 35 years old. And we'll learn later that on the same day, Jim will write in his diary, quote, sukie and I celebrate with champagne and caviar.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Celebrate what? He doesn't say.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Mm. Mm.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. You fucking idiot.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So from the moment they hear the news, Lita's parents are absolutely convinced Jim Sullivan killed their daughter. Not only were Lita and Jim in the middle of a bitter divorce, but the idea and the fact that she's murdered on the morning of the hearing, where they decide how much she's gonna get, makes it clear that this is just not a coincidence.

[Georgia Hardstark]

100%.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's no deliberation. Jim gets everything. That's the reason it happened on that day. Except Jim does have an alibi. And it's airtight. At the time of Lita's murder, he was in Palm beach with Sukie.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right? Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But still, the police head to Florida to question him. They administer a polygraph. He passes it, but he's still not ruled out. They start looking at other potential suspects, including Poppy's husband, a man named Marvin Marable. Marvin doesn't like Leta because he thinks she's encouraging Poppy to leave him. In fact, in their investigation, police discover that Marvin has bugged their house phone and recorded hundreds of hours of conversations between Lita and Poppy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's a sacred conversation space.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then he sends those tapes down to Florida for Jim to listen to, and the two men bond over their shared marital issues.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Gross.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So while Marvin clearly dislikes Lita, there is no solid evidence tying him to this murder. But he does end up getting probation. Free, illegal eavesdropping. The good news about those recordings is they provide information. Like the fact that Lita, who, just for clarity, is legally separated at this point, talks to Poppy about the men she's dating. So Jim immediately seizes on this and tells investigators one of those men might be Leda's killer. Detectives look into that lead. Nothing comes of it. So time passes. And meanwhile, Jim sells the townhouse Lita was living in, turns a profit of around in today's money, $375,000. And that with that cuts his last ties to the McClinton family. Just eight months after Lita's death, Jim Sullivan marries Sukie in Palm Beach. Back in Georgia, detectives continue to track down leads. They're working with. Three descriptions of different men they believe were all tied to the murder. One was provided by Leda's neighbors who saw the man fleeing. They got a very good look at that shooter. The other two descriptions are from a local florist shop near Leta's townhouse.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So the florist remembers selling roses to a man around 8am the morning of Leda's death.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The florist remembers this customer was strangely ambivalent about what kind of roses he wanted to buy and that he wasn't alone. He pulled up with another man who waited out in the car.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hmm.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was a sales transaction that was bizarre enough that the florist thought these men were going to rob him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Jesus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So, yeah. So he committed their faces to memory and then called the police and was able to describe them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So the sketches of these three men are drawn up based on the descriptions, but investigators don't know who they are. None of them look like Jim Sullivan, though. Detectives start wondering if Lita's death could have been a murder for hire, and the evidence starts supporting this idea. So police learned that calls were placed from rest stop payphones and from a Howard Johnson motel near Atlanta to Jim's home in Palm beach around the time of the murder.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Jesus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. And then they learn some suspicious phone calls Jim made to people in Atlanta around the same time. One was placed three days before Lita was killed. And that same morning, a strange man in a baseball cap banged on Lita's door around 6am she heard it, but it freaked her out so much, she didn't answer it. But she called friends to tell them what happened. Hours later, around 8am Jim calls Marvin Marable, Poppy's husband, and asks for confirmation that Leta still lived in that townhouse. Marvin and Poppy were divorced by this point, so Marvin genuinely did not know where Lita was. An hour later, at 9am Jim calls Lita's neighbor, a man named Bob Christensen. The two men knew each other as neighbors, but they hadn't spoken in over a year. So Bob was surprised to get this call from Jim. Jim claimed that he was checking in on Lita after hearing that there'd been some, quote, suspicious activity at the townhouse. The. But technically, he would have no way of knowing that there was any suspicious activity because Leda wasn't in conversation with him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm sorry, but these people are bad at this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Really bad. And it's also. It's that kind of late 80s crime where you're just like, oh, this is all so just laying out right there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it's like. It's tragic in its just blatant stupidity, you know, just so infuriating.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So infuriating. So none of this looks good for Jim, obviously, but there's still no conclusive proof that he is involved with Lita's death. Police are trying to find these three unidentified men for this case, knowing that if they can identify them, they might be able to solve it. So detectives zero in on those calls placed from that Howard Johnson's motel room. They learn three men stayed together in that room and arrived in a car with North Carolina plan. Then they learned they booked the room under the name Johnny Furr. Furr with two Rs. So there are around 150 men with that name, Johnny Furr, in North Carolina alone.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Interesting.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But at this point, it was being used as an alias because they learned that all the details associated with this motel reservation are fake.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Meanwhile, down in Florida, Jim gets into. And so this is like when these things kind of like, if you're too cocky about your very overt murder for hire plan, things start to come together against you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cause you think you're smarter than everyone. So you don't take steps to, like, not be dumb. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And listen how dumb this is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Jim gets into a fender bender in his Rolls Royce. And even though he's not at fault in this fender bender, the responding officer notices that Jim's driving with an expired registration and on a suspended license because he has 18 traffic violations. So they suspended his license.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mm.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So the cop writes Jim a ticket again. Jim is a millionaire. He could have just paid the fine and been done with it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But instead, he goes to traffic court to fight the ticket, and he tells the judge that it was actually his wife, Sukie, not him, who was driving that day. And in sworn testimony, Sukie backs Jim's story up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, Jesus, honey.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The judge is so confused by this whole story that he ends up dropping the charges. But officials in the courtroom find the exchange so weird. They dig into the police report, and they confirm that Jim was, in fact, driving the car that day. So the state of Florida takes both Jim and Sukie to court for perjury.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Which. Who were those court officials? Like, who were the ones that were standing there being like, wait, what's going on here? Because crucial actually to that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So don't lie in court. Right. If you can get caught easily, you're.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There to lie to get yourself out of a fee that you deserve to pay totally. And have the money to pay totally. But you're wearing your dead uncle's underwear, so you're not gonna pay it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I forgot about that part.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, okay. At this point, Sukie and Jim have been married for less than three years. But this incident is the final straw for Sukie. Not only does she dump Jim, but during their bitter, very public divorce proceedings, Sukie shocks everyone by testifying in court that Jim admitted to her that he had Lita murdered.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So now the FBI has called in.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There are two big problems. Detectives still can't find the men who are staying at the Howard Johnson's. Plus, the statute of limitations for a federal murder for hire case is only five years. So time is about to run out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fucking hate this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So in a total Hail Mary move, the US Attorney files charges against Jim that specifically involve using, quote, interstate commerce facilities, which in this case refers to calling state from Georgia to Florida to carry out a murder for hire. The judge dismisses this case over lack of evidence, and Jim is allowed to leave the courtroom of free man that day. It's a devastating blow for emory and Joanne McClinton, who are certain the Jim's just got away with having their daughter murdered.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So in the early 1990s, they file a wrongful death lawsuit against Jim Sullivan, and that jury rules in their favor. Jim is found guilty and is ordered to pay the McClintons $4 million in damages, which is over $11 million in today's money. But because Jim is a trained accountant, he manages to hide his assets. Then he appeals the ruling, and he wins after arguing that the case was filed after the statute of limitations in Florida had already expired, which was only two years for a wrongful death suit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Stop it with these statute of limitations. Like they're just baiting criminals to be better at their fucking crimes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so ridiculous.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's terrible. So it really does seem at this point like Jim Sullivan is about to get away with murder. Until 1998, more than a decade after Lita's murder, when a tip rolls in from Beaumont, Texas. There, a woman named Belinda works as a receptionist for a local law office. And something's been weighing on her mind very heavily and for a long time. Belinda confides to a lawyer at this law firm about her ex husband from North Carolina, a man named Tony Hardwood. I thought the name was Harwood when I was first reading this. And I'm like, the name is Hardwood, Tony Hardwood Floors.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The word hard in her last name. Oh, I'm not blinking at that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You don't care.

[Georgia Hardstark]

People don't want it to be Hard Stark. They just don't. They'll write anything else because it just doesn't somehow compute in their head. So I'm not blinking at that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But Hard Stark is like a conceptual name that actually sounds really cool. Hardwood is just a type of floor you're standing on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Such jokes, too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Tony Linoleum here to testify. Okay, so Belinda says that Tony used to pick up gigs as a mover in some of his work. And on one of these jobs, he moved furniture from Georgia to Palm beach for a rich client who later asked him to carry out a murder for hire. Belinda witnessed the rich man giving Tony a big envelope of cash at one point. And she says that the rich man was white, his wife lived in Atlanta and she was black. And that Tony told her he couldn't get the wife to answer her front door.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So Belinda suggested, because she didn't really understand, that her ex husband was actually acting as a hitman. Yeah, she suggested that he poses as a floral delivery man. So she realizes this is all real and is like, oh, my God. And that makes me, like, feels terrible and has to tell this lawyer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The lawyer sits on this information for a second, and then he sees an episode of Extra outlining Leda's case.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So it has made it all the way to, like, tabloid tv.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You have to say it. Extra.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Then he caught. My God, that show was just like, in all of our Lives. Like, it was the 7:00 news.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it was better.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like Hard Copy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Extra.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Entertainment Tonight.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Don't all have a seizure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay?

[Karen Kilgariff]

So when this lawyer sees that, he calls the FBI and he gives them this information Belinda's told him, and it blows the case wide open. Authorities tell Belinda to reach out to her ex husband to try to get him to talk more.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And she does. Their conversation is monitored by the police.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Love those recordings of someone trying to get information from someone, but. And pretending that they're like. I just love hearing those. Because some people are so good at it and some people are so bad at it, but the criminal still talks no matter what. Like, yeah. Or they. You could tell they know, and they're like, I'm not saying anything.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know why you're trying to get me to say that exact phrase. But I'm not saying it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love those.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's the same thing where it's like, when people have to, like, recite lines or whatever. It's like acting's really hard. Like, the idea that you're just gonna be like, I'm having a casual. Yeah, ex wife, ex husband conversation with you. No big deal.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Trying to sound casual. Jesus, when I try to sound casual, I try to make my voice as high as possible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, let's get to know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, don't use that against me. Okay. So Belinda asks Tony about Lita's murder, and he says enough to place himself at the scene of the crime. Also, when they look at those sketches that the police had, Tony looks like one of them. So that's enough to arrest Tony. In North Carolina, he's interviewed for several hours. He admits to taking Jim's money in exchange for Leda's murder. He also claims he didn't actually pull the trigger. He claims he found another person to actually carry out the hit, but he is unclear on who that person is. But Jim Sullivan is named as the mastermind behind Lita's death. And of course, he starts to realize Tony's arrested. It's the inevitable future for him. So he flees the country and is living entirely off the grid because Jim is a white male millionaire and is like, K by see you later.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, Goes to Taiwan.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He ends up on the FBI's most wanted list. He's also featured on America's Most Wanted. Still, no one can find him. But then the Florida Supreme Court reverses the lower court's ruling that Jim does not have to pay that $4 million damage to the McClinton family. Okay, and they do that on the grounds that Lita was killed in Georgia. Yeah, so the courts should have been respecting the Georgia statute of limitations, which is longer than Florida's statute of limitations.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I could have told the judge that, like. And I'm barely a lawyer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, you just got to be a lawyer from nine years of this podcast.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

So Emory and Joanne win this case. They know they're not going to see that money, but it does feel to them like a small symbolic step toward justice. At least something is happening in the right direction on this case.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So this is now 15 years after Lita's murder. It's 2002, and someone in Thailand is watching America's Most Wanted, and they recognize the man on the screen as a man who lives in their condo complex with them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck, man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So they call the police, and in early July of 2002 police officers show up to Jim Sullivan's secret beachfront condo in Thailand. Taiwan.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Taiwan, you mean.

[Karen Kilgariff]

After 15 long years, Jim Sullivan is finally arrested for the murder of Lita McClinton. He's brought back to Georgia for the murder trial, and as part of his plea deal, Tony Hardwood testifies against him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nice.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Tony winds up pleading guilty to manslaughter charges as part of this deal. In 2006, a racially diverse jury of nine women and three men find Jim Sullivan guilty of the murder of Lita McClinton. When that sentence is handed down, Emory and Joanne burst into tears and hold each other in the courtroom. It's now been nearly 20 years since their daughter was murdered.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Jesus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Jim Sullivan is sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. He is still in prison today. Tony Hardwood serves 20 years, and he gets out in 2018 and is now free. No one else has been charged in Lita McClinton's murder. Tony Hardwood will eventually refute the idea that of the two other men from the flower shop, he claims he purchased the flowers himself. There was no second person present. He just implicates a man he will only refer to as, quote, John the bartender as the actual hitman that day.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So he just won't. Yeah, okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He can't either deal with the fact that he did it, or there's somebody else that he's not. He's not ratting out, which is chilling. Once Jim Sullivan guilty verdict is finally handed down after all Those years, Joanne McClinton talks to reporters, and she says to them, this one quote, he's taken something we can't ever get back. There is no closure. When you've lost a child, you can live with it better, but there is no closure. End quote. In 2023, Emory McClinton passes away after a long illness at the age of 90, Joanne McClinton is still alive in Georgia today. There's a bronze sculpture commemorating Leta McClinton's life at Atlanta's Oakland Cemetery. The plaque on it reads, quote, in loving memory of dearest Leta, the giver whose inner beauty was blinding smiles, love, and tears. And that's the tragic story of the murder of Leta McClinton.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So go read. The Devil Went down to Georgia.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

To read all of the details.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Details of this crazy case. The crazy details. And so long for him to get justice.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow. Great job.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There are probably a billion furniture options out there. We didn't count, but that number feels right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So how do you find the perfect piece easy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You go to Article.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Article believes in delightful design for every home and thanks to their online only model they have some really delightful prices too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Article makes furniture shopping a breeze with its carefully selected sty. From mid century modern to boho and everything in between.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Check out their Nira dresser. It's beautiful and practical which is a deadly combination.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know we're hard stands of article on this podcast. Everyone knows that we're like BFFs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean we couldn't rave more and.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It'S because everything is so classy, so beautifully made, affordable and so user friendly. Like you don't have to have style to like get stylish stuff from article. They do it for you. So like there's no worry there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Look at that near a dresser on their website. Just go and take a look at that one piece and you will see what we are talking about. It is as mid century as you could get.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Seriously. Article is offering our listeners 50 off your first purchase of a hundred dollars or more.

[Karen Kilgariff]

To claim, visit article.com murder and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's a R-T-I C L E.com murder to get 50 off your first purchase of a hundred dollars or more.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You may love the finer things in life, like soft cashmere, silk and effortlessly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Chic fashion, but your bank account probably doesn't always agree.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fortunately, we have Quince.

[Karen Kilgariff]

With quince you can get quality luxury essentials without the hefty price tag like their Mongolian cashmere sweaters starting at $50.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When you're looking at a piece on the Quince website, you can scroll down to see how other people have styled it and if they thought the fit was true to size or not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I feel like I need to apologize to people because I have one of those quince Mongolian sweaters in the dark gray and I think I wear it every day or every other day. It's just like such a simple, perfect looking piece. But then it is the coziest sweater, especially through winter where you're like this is the layer I want to have on me at all times. And I feel like that level of quality and being able to get it for $50. Quince cares about us. Feels like it's like they want us to be dressed nice and look cool and not go broke.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We should get seven of the same color for you so you can wear different ones every day of the I.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Mean I absolutely will Give yourself the.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Luxury you deserve with quint.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Go to quinte.com mfm for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com mfm to get free shipping and 365 day returns.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Quince.com mfm Goodbye. Spring is in the air. Fresh flowers, crisp mornings, that first warm breeze through an open window.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's the time of year when everything smells amazing. And thanks to pretty litter, your home can too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Pretty litter is the high performance cat litter that controls odors, absorbs moisture and changes color to help detect potential health issues in your cat.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And Pretty litter is ultra absorbent, lightweight, low dust and one six pound bag lasts up to a month. And the best part, Pretty litter ships free right to your door so you'll never run out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, a huge thing of kitty litter shipped to your door alone is an amazing convenience and perk. But then the fact that pretty litter helps you track your cat's health and make sure that your cat is doing okay as it like takes care of odor in your home. What more do you want?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, as someone with an older kitty cat, I'm looking at you, Mimi. It is like such peace of mind to know that if something's going on with her kidneys, I'll know immediately instead of like months in the future when she shows me some other sign. Pretty litter helps keep your house smelling fresh and clean. Try it and you'll love it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Go to prettylitter.com mfm to save 20% on your first order and get a free cat toy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's PrettyLitter.com MFM to save 20%, your first order and get a free cat toy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Pretty Litter.com MFM terms and conditions apply.

[Georgia Hardstark]

See site for details. Goodbye. Okay, so we left off with your story in prison and we're going to stay there for the beginning of my story just for a moment because this is the story of a brazen prison break by a group of inmates who managed to evade capture for six weeks. This is the story of the Texas seven. And you like prison break stuff, right? Like you've done it a couple times.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I find it very exciting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, well this one is hold onto your pants.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Wherever you got grip something. The main sources for the story are a 60 minute segment from 2001, a crime library article by Gary C. King, and then this old school, like crime show called Mugshots. That was very.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Mug shots.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's got like, you know, it's like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They come and turn to the side.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They'Re like, here's the. We're gonna. Yeah, I Don't know what year it is, but I hope it's old because mugshot felt like it. And the rest of the sources could be found in the show notes. So we're starting with the main mugshot guy, George Rivas. He's 30 years old, and he's serving 17 life sentences.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Uh oh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

At the John B. Connolly Penitentiary in southeastern Texas. So fucking long time in prison in Texas.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can I just say this? When we talk about jailbreaks being exciting, like, for example, if you go listen to infamous International Pink Panthers, those are some great jailbreaks by people who like to steal diamonds. Right. When we're talking about a man who has 17 life sentences. Yes, that's bad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We don't want those people 100%.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Unless.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let me tell you something about that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay? I was just scared that I sounded like I was backing up. Okay. Multiple murderers escaping jail.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Only people would think who think that comment on Instagram. So you're fine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Who are those people?

[Georgia Hardstark]

So this prison is between San Antonio and Corpus Christi. George is there for armed robbery and aggravated kidnapping. And that is bad. I'm not fucking making any excuses. In 1993, in his early 20s, he had robbed several stores in El Paso. He kind of like. I don't know, he really enjoyed robbing places. Okay, As a teenager and into his 20s, even though he was, like, going to college, he had children and a wife, a seemingly normal life, it just. He had this rebellious streak in him that made him keep doing this, made.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Him put guns in people's faces.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. And that is traumatic for a lifetime for all of those people. But the kidnapping part refers to handcuffing some store employees and locking them in a different part of the store. So that's counted in Texas or, you know, wherever else as kidnapping. So he didn't abduct anyone, he didn't kill anyone. And the number of life sentences in Texas is equal to the number of hostages you took or, like, the number of kidnappings, not the severity of the crime. Okay, so 17 people in the store that he put in the, you know, a bathroom or whatever is 17 life sentences.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Got you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So for a young man, that is the 30 years that's the rest of your life in your mind entirely. And there's no parole happening. Right. So, you know, he goes in in his early 20s, by late 2000, in his 30s, he is a model prisoner. His behavioral record is impeccable. He's what's considered a trustee, meaning an inmate who's seen as well behaved or responsible. And so he Has a coveted job in the prison's maintenance department. He's also totally fucking over it. Yeah, yeah. I mean, who isn't in prison? Like that's not special. But he's despondent at the idea that he'll be spending the rest of his life behind bars. So he starts to cook up a plan. And he was going to school for engineering when he got caught. Like he's a smart guy. He's a planner, he's a thinker.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know, the first step of his plan is recruiting other inmates. George had been more of a career criminal, as I said, but some of the people he chooses have been convicted of horrendous crimes. So this is not a feel good story in any way. Great violent crimes including rape, murder, and a horrific incident of physical abuse against a child. It's. These are not fucking good guys for George. He doesn't really care. He might not even know what they're in there for, who knows? But for his plan to work, most of the other guys involved have to have that same job assignment that he does in the maintenance department. So that just kind of happens that that's who he teams up with.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They are often left alone in there to complete tasks, maybe with one or two maintenance workers, but no corrections officers because they're trusted. The other men George recruits are named Patrick Murphy, Donald Newbury, Larry Harper, Joseph Garcia and Randy Halperin. And they're all in their 20s and 30s and they all have very long sentences. So they have incentives to escape. The final inmate who doesn't work in the maintenance department is also let into the plan. And his name is Michael Rodriguez. I'm not going to get like too into the weeds with the escape because it's complicated and there's a lot of luck involved. They got away with some. Like a lot of things had to be on their side that day for them to have gotten away with it. The prison has three guard towers staffed by armed guards. And it's surrounded by double 12 foot fences topped with razor wire. So. So they're not going over the top of that. They're not running off. There's also a patrol vehicle staffed with another armed guard which moves around the outside of the complex. But none of that matters because George's plan is to take over a small portion of the prison by force.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So on December 13, 2000, George and almost all of the members of his crew are at their jobs at the maintenance building. They ask one of the guards if they can stay behind during lunch break to wax the Floors or some such shit. The guard lets them, which isn't rare. It's not the first time it's happened that they're left pretty much unsupervised. One maintenance supervisor stays behind with the group, but all of the corrections officers go to lunch. So it's not a, you know, an officer who stays behind. It's like a civilian. Through a series of events that involve some planning and, as I said, some straight up luck, the men are able to overpower guards and maintenance workers, like multiple guards and maintenance workers, steal their weapons, and then change into the clothes of those maintenance workers and corrections officers. It's complicated, but they fucking pull it off beautifully. Unfortunately, at this point, the rest of the inmates have driven over in a maintenance truck, which really is scheduled to be going into town that day. So no one looking from afar questions seeing it at the gate. And so at this point, they run over there. Two are in the cab, four hiding under a big piece of plywood in the bed. And then George, who at this point has snuck into the patrol tower, opens the gate, goes down into the truck, hops in, and everyone drives away. Like in a truck easily?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know, when they leave, they have taken with them 16 guns of varying sizes, ammunition, as well as money, credit cards, and IDs from the prison workers and guards. So they just like, were immediately armed and dangerous and this is stuff they.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Got their hands on within the jail?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. By overpowering the guards and maintenance workers, authorities at the prison figure out what has happened pretty much immediately. And they know that the group of escaped inmates is heading towards town. So they're out there looking for the truck immediately. It's an immediate manhunt. But what they don't know is that one of the inmate's father had also been in on the plan, and he had left a car in a local Walmart parking lot four miles away from the prison. So they take that trek to the parking lot, they hop into this car instead, and they're out of town.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Come on, boy dads, let's be better than this. Yeah, let's not.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't supply your kids with a getaway car.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, I wonder if it's that kind of thing where it's just like, you get out and I'll make it so that you can stay out type of thing. No one wants anyone to be in jail. That's the thing too, is like, prison is hell. I mean, any.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sure, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

So that idea of, like, you're in jail, you have 12 life sentences, and you're Getting bummed where it's like, plan for that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Act accordingly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Learn something.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The high of the risk isn't going.

[Georgia Hardstark]

To be worth it, especially in Texas.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. So anyway, some codependent dad is like, don't worry about it. You're going to be okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I've got you. Yeah, as long as you come home for whatever. So the group stops overnight in San Antonio, then proceeds to Houston. They rob a Radio Shack in a suburb called Purland, per land, probably. The group arrives at the store right around closing time, and this is kind of their MO. A clerk at the store named Michael. He's only 19 years old. And when they take their guns out, he starts hyperventilating. And one of the robbers reads his name tag and says, quote, calm down, Michael. Take deep breaths. So they're actually, like, kind of nice to him. After tying Michael up and putting him in the store's bathroom, the inmates start taking cash and electronics out of the store. But while they're doing this, Michael's dad pulls up into the parking lot to pick him up. And it's like, closing time, so there's no other cars. Like, it's. It's very sketchy. George Reis ends up tying him up as well and puts him in the store's bathroom with Michael. When Michael is interviewed about his experience with the escaped convicts, he later says, quote, they were nice guys. End quote. So, like, oh, I don't think George Reavis had intentions to hurt people. I think it almost seems like it was a game to him to rob places, you know, like me against the world kind of a thing, you know? Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, it's nice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's not saying he's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They gave him a nice breathing technique. And so I'm sure Michael's like, but don't you think that's the. Ultimately, it's like, well, what's he supposed to do? He's not gonna cry and say, that was the most traumatic thing that's ever happened. He has to be like, it's okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's no, like, good calm robbery. Like, that's not a thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. And as I said, some of the criminals were originally convicted of some very awful crimes. So it means nothing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's a reason he was hyperventilating.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And he was right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Now the plan is for the group to stay together until they've gotten enough cash through robberies to buy fake IDs, and then they will all go their separate ways. So seven dudes together seems like an obvious thing to me. But who am I?

[Karen Kilgariff]

You mean like, that people would spot them and be like, yeah, hey, that's not a book club.

[Georgia Hardstark]

How does the seating work in the car? Cause it was a small car. Like someone's on the lap.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Or someone's like, you get in the.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Way back in the trunk.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, yeah, the trunk. Who writes in the trunk on this one?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Rock, paper, scissors. And so for the moment, they're actually enjoying their freedom. George later says, quote, we were all ecstatic, honestly. We knew there was a serious manhunt, but every day was precious to us. The freedom of walking to the corner store and buying a soda, a newspaper, and the clerk saying, good morning. How are you? It was beautiful. End quote.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's how I used to feel when I lived in San Francisco and worked at the Gap. I get to do what I want. I mean.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, but you still do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I wasn't doing it. I didn't do any crimes. I just took my 6:25 an hour and made something of myself.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You sure did.

[Karen Kilgariff]

God damn it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So George says that after he gets a fake id, he just wants to disappear somewhere and get a job as a cook and live a normal life. Of course, it doesn't work out that way. Surprise, surprise.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Never does with these jail breaks. Never does.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Doesn't. The fun comes to a grinding halt and a tragic end on Christmas Eve. By this point, the men have made their way to the Dallas area, and they're going to try to get everything they need to secure their lives in hiding at an Oshman Sporting Goods store in Irving, Texas. Why is that funny?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know. We have one in Petaluma.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, you do?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's that kind of thing or it just, like, go to ash. Get everything you need to live.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What's their jingle?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know if they have one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Go Ashman's. No, that sounds familiar.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, that sounded good. I mean, it's just like a. One of those general kind of like overalls and hammers and maybe a Christmas tree.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Tents, probably.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Tents, yeah. Yep.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So that's like they kind of are getting everything they need.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So hummingbird feeders.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hummingbird feeders. And then necessity when you're on the lam. So right at closing time, three members of the group approach a manager at the sporting goods store, ask him to call all of his employees. And we know that George is one of these three, but it's not totally clear who the other two are. They say they want to show the staff some pictures of some people who have been robbing local Stores. So another ruse that like sounds kind of legit. Yeah, like the flower delivery thing. Right, right. And also like the manager's probably like a 23 year old community college student who's like fucking exhausted, you know. So what is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Get this done. I'm trying to close out and count all my. Count my.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. It's like your friend at Staples, it's like. Well, he's wearing the outfit, so I believe him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He must know what he's talking about.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Exactly. Of course. As soon as the employees are assembled, they pull out the guns and force all the employees to go to a back room, tie them up, and then rob the store. And because it's Christmas Eve, there's 70 grand in the cash registers and that's the year 2000. So in today's money, that 70 grand would be $250,000, $130,000. You overshot, which is like ambitious though.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's me, you know, like that's me in a nutshell.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I feel like this130 is wrong. Not you. You know what I mean? Like it should be.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It should be a lot more.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Should be. Yeah. The group takes all of it. And they also steal 40 guns from the store's inventory, which has to scare the shit out of the law enforcement chasing them, knowing that they have all these guns from the prison and ammunition. And they're stealing a bunch of guns too. It just makes it that much.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They have an armory. Yeah, like a traveling armory.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Like they are armed and dangerous to the fucking teeth.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So they also take a lot of ammunition and lots of warm winter clothing. They also take the keys to one of the employees cars, which is like such a bummer if you work at Oshman's. Like your car, your Toyota Camry. Hand me down.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fucking guys. Take it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I wonder if they took those keys and then they made copies of those keys. Cause that's another thing you can get done if it's anything. Like it's Oshman's or Orchard Supply. Yeah, which one? Which name is it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oshman's?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ashman's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, but I know what you're talking about. You know those small town hardware stores that don't exist anymore in sporting goods stores.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. They kind of have everything. See you later. We used to be able to get it all done.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They have the tiny model tents that you can't buy for your cat, which is so infuriating. Like, let me buy the tiny model tent for my fucking cat. It's clearly a cat bed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's a cat Bed. It's a cat toy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like stop.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. There's kind of nothing better than a small town hardware store.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God. I could spend hours and I remember the one in San Francisco in the Castro when I used to do my like bank run where I go from my job to the bank and I'd go to the. Spend so much time in that hardware store. It was beautiful.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The hardwood store that would have like front windows displays where it's like Dorothy walking down the yellow brick road, but they're like. But also nails. Springtime.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then there's just like weird stuff that's kind of pastel. Yeah. So all of this robbing of the Oshmans might have gone off without a hitch, but an off duty employee from that same sporting goods store again had been in the parking lot waiting to pick someone up. Saw this like scene of like it should be closing time and there was unfamiliar people bustling around after hours and there's no employees anywhere. So this person calls the police. And one of the first two officers to report to the scene is a man named Aubrey Hawkins. He's 29 years old and he has only been on the job for a little over a year. And so it's Christmas Eve. He's eating dinner at a nearby Olive Garden with his family when he gets the call over his radio and he leaves to respond to it. Officer Hawkins arrives at the same time as another police officer. And that officer positions himself at the front of the store. And Aubrey pulls around to the back. And it's possible that the escapees had a police monitor scanner. So they knew that this was happening. Right. He gets to the back just as the whole group of escapees are heading out the back door and they immediately start shooting at the officer. Yeah, we know that George is among those who shoot Aubrey because he will later take full responsibility for his death. But it sounds like the other two members of the group who are with him also fire a bunch of shots. So it's unclear, you know, which shot actually killed him. But they do shoot Officer Hawkins. Hawkins, 11 times. They run over him with their car as they flood the scene. It's just so awful. Hawkins dies at the hospital shortly after his arrival. He leaves behind a wife and nine year old son. So it's just senseless and awful. But like, what are the escapees thinks going to happen when they bring 40 plus guns into the game like these? You know, George Revis is trying to be like, I wanted it to be peaceful. I didn't want anyone to get hurt. But it's like, don't surround yourself with, like, violent criminals and guns.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, you can't. There's no controlling it. You have to admit that you have unleashed this force.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't understand, though. If people are witnessing what they think is some sort of a robbery, you're only sending two people over there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think that they were just so close. They got there first.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know, God. So, yeah, maybe the protocol was like, you should wait until there's more. But, you know, it's a small town, he's a new officer. Maybe he just thinks he's pulling him to the back. Like, they don't even know it's actually happening yet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it's a true band of criminals armed to the teeth. It's worst case scenario.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. At this point, the prison escape has been huge news. It's like they're kind of like these. I don't know, people are kind of like cheering for them in a way, until they kill a police officer. Right. And they're in Texas, by the way, so shit goes off. The group then becomes known as the Texas Seven. And a hundred thousand dollars reward is issue for information that leads to their capture. That amount winds up getting raised to $500,000, which in today's money is almost a million $926,000. On New Year's Day in 2001, a group of seven men randomly. Seven men. Who were they? They arrive at the Coach Light RV park in Woodland Park, Colorado. By this point, the group has made efforts to grow beards. They changed their appearances. George has bleached his hair since so that it's like really blonde. And they arrive in an RV and they also have a jeep with them. And they tell the RV park manager that they're a group of Christian missionaries in town to spread Jesus's word. And the manager thinks they look like nice guys and, like, invites them to their Bible study. Because there's a lot of religious people in this RV park.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, apparently. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So it's actually kind of a good cover for like seven dudes together.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which is very suspicious.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It is. Very much so. I was going to say they should say that they're like a jam band.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or some. A cover band of some kind. And it's like roadies and band members.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But what if they're like, hey, give us a show tonight.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's like, sorry, we're also very religious and we can't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Today's the Lord's day. It's Monday. No, no, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

My Lord, my Yeah, personal.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In my religion, my sweet lord. They joined the local Bible study within the RV park. They hang out at local bars and they seem to get along well with the community. And it's, you know, a small community community, but on January 20th, so like, that's a long time. Also, the same day George W. Bush is inaugurated. Thank you to Ally for putting that in there. An episode of America's Most Wanted airs and features the story of the Texas 7. The owner of the RV park sees this and he's interviewed in this mugshot show, and he's just like, chill as fuck with the flannel on. He's exactly who you think he is. And he's like, wait a second. These seven guys. Guys look kind of familiar, but they're also like, maybe they're not. And so they go online on the new Internet to make sure that they, like, match the description. And so he's sure at that point without a doubt that these are the same guys. And he calls the local sheriff. So the sheriff happens to be an RV owner himself, and so he pretends to be a tourist. They like, change the plates so they're like out of town plates. And they drive into the RV park with his own trailer full of deputies.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So smart, very smart.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They spend the night there watching the group. And in the morning, George Michael Rodriguez and Joseph Garcia drive the Jeep to a nearby gas station and the sheriff and his deputies follow them there. Once they pull into the gas pump, several police cars box them in on all sides, and the officers pull their guns. Of course, George Michael and Joseph surrender immediately. George was like, he had a gun on him. He quickly considered it, and then he was like, just surrender. So he surrenders. Then later that day, Randy Halperin surrenders to authorities at the trailer park. Larry Harper is there too, but he refuses to surrender and dies by suicide rather than coming out of the RV and going back to prison. Donald Newberry and Patrick Murphy actually make a run for it, but they are arrested two days later at a Holiday Inn in Colorado springs. So all six remaining members of the Texas 7 wind up being extradited back to Texas. They're charged with the murder of Officer Aubrey Hawkins. And they're all convicted because it's that law of, like, if you were part of a group and someone got murdered, you're all responsible for the murder. As of today, four of the six have been executed, and the last surviving members of the Texas Seven are. Randy Halperin, the youngest of the group, who's now in his mid-40s. And the other current surviving member of the Texas 7 is Patrick Murphy, and he is still currently awaiting execution. Neither Randy nor Patrick was actually present when Aubrey Hawkins was shot, so they weren't the robbers at the Boshman store that day. Also indicted for conspiracy to help the Texas Seven are Patsy Gomez and Paul Rodriguez, the parents of Michael Rodriguez, who.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hooked up the Walmart.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You can't give him a getaway car.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can't do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You can't. I don't know. You would love your son. I understand.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then the idea they're pulling in, like someone's old parents who are just trying to, like, who maybe, like, didn't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Get what they were actually doing or.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just are like, we don't want you to live in hell. We want you to somehow get away.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. I mean, this. This story, especially for George Rivas, brings up the whole idea of rehabilitation and how, like, that's supposed to be the point of our justice system. And when you take that away from someone, there's no point to their life anymore.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's no hope.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, you like, rehabilitation should be what we're aiming for, right? At the time of his recapture, George says on 60 Minutes that he feels very remorseful about the death of Officer Hawkins. George dies by lethal injection on February 29, 2012. He's 41 years old. His final words are, I do apologize for everything that happened, not because I am here, but for closure in your hearts. I am ready to go and quote, wow. And that is the story of the prison break of the Texas 7.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's kind of shocking to hear somebody, a criminal that's trying to say, I'm not just saying this because of this. I want. Hopefully it's for you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He did seem to do that throughout his trial and throughout, before and after his cap, you know, his sentencing. He was very remorseful, and I. I think, you know, that doesn't count much for Officer Hawkins family and friends. So, you know, take that with a grain of salt.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's right. Wow. Good one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Lot to think about in that one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do it now. Think about it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm done.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, you know what we should do now?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fucking hooray.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's do fucking hoorays and end this on a high note.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's do it, guys.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We started doing fucking hoorays again. So make sure you comment. Comment on this episode's Instagram with your hooray hashtag at fucking hooray. Or email us at my favorite murder Gmail. And you can also leave a comment in the video Episode. And yes, this is a ploy to get you to go to our YouTube.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Channel and watch and comment and like. And smash that like button, pretty please, and be a subscriber. Okay, here, let me start.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because the subject line of this is, if my fellow Kelsey's email, I guess I will too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it says, howdy. I just listened to the latest episode where you reintroduced fucking Hooray. And I thought to myself, maybe I'll write in about how I'm handling my upcoming 40th birthday. And what do you know? You read a hooray from a fellow kelsey celebrating reaching 30. And then that Kelsey highlighted their best friend Kelsey with an ie. What are the odds, man? I used to get Chelsea all the time, but I've met more and more Kelsey's, so I guess we aren't too rare anymore. Anyway, I'll keep it short.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, you won't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm turning 40 on April 1st. And then in parentheses it says, I am most certainly an April fool. And it says, and I'm having feelings about it for sure. But here I am, happily married, fully employed, awesome dog, awesome cat, cozy home, heaps of gratitude to have left, an eating disorder, damaging religious beliefs, and so much else in the past. So whatever the hell is going on out in the world, I am deeply, deeply grateful for my small sister slice of it. Thank you for your podcast and hooray for survival. One foot in front of the other. Keep moving forward, Kelsey.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Kelsey, what if every episode we have to read a Kelsey? Like someone named Kelsey has to write in? We can do it, Kelsey, do you hear us? Kelsey, you have to tell us your hooray.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Kelsey, spill it. You thought it was something nobody wanted to hear. We do. You're a Kelsey.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Even though I cried on my 40th birthday, and that was partly because it was the beginning of the pandemic. My 40s have been so fucking incredible. I'm so glad to get out of my 30s where you care so much more. More about everything than you do in your 40s. Yeah, like, it's just the best decade.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Get ready for your 50s where truly you cannot find a to give DGAF.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, this one's from Instagram. From TheReal. Maddie B77. It says one of the best episodes ever. Oh, thanks. Hashtag Hooray. After years of YouTube being open and honest about therapy, I began going. Due to an unforeseen death of my best friend at age 44. It says sepsis, not murder. Therapy has helped me cope with a loss of a friend. Like a brother and opened my eyes to things about me I didn't even realize. Thank you for your openness and honesty. It's helped many of us. Love from Korea. Therealmadi b77 wow, Maddie, that's a horrible.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Loss and so difficult. And the idea that you're like, I'm going to do something constructive for myself in the midst of this is really brave.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm gonna do this the right way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This just says so glad you're bringing back the fucking hooray. I have won from this past week. My 16 year old niece and her high school girls ice hockey team won the Division 1 Massachusetts state championship on the heralded ice of Boston Garden. So they got to go to the state championships to Boston Garden and they won her high school. Hingham High School is also my alma mater from 40 years ago. Love you all. Can't Kim.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cute.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So Auntie Kim is shouting out and celebrating. That's a huge accomplishment. And then they got to do it at Boston Garden. That's the coolest.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so cool.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Congratulations, everybody.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, my last one's from Instagram. Also hashtag fucking hooray. Last May, I underwent weeks of needles and an outpatient procedure, plus a month of no roller derby boo. So that I could donate my eggs for free since paying donors is illegal in Canada. Oh, interesting. Last month I got a meet and hold the gorgeous newborn bab that I was able to give this couple who had thought they might never get to have. I've been walking on air ever since Jen they theme tronic on Instagram.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. What a beautiful thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's like it's some roller derby superstar taking some time out. Yeah. Just to help out a fellow man. Help for free woman. Yeah. Amazing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Amazing. Send us your fucking raise.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And look for what is something to fucking hooray about in your life. Especially in these times, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

If you think you don't have one, you just need to look a little harder because you'll have one this week, we promise.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Treat it as an assignment. Make a little list. Try to find three. Find your best. Send it to my favorite murdermail.com and.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Auntie Georgia and Auntie Karen say to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Look for three and we love you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Stay sexy and don't get murdered. Goodbye, Elvis. Do you want a cookie?

[Karen Kilgariff]

This has been an exactly right production.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Our senior producers are Alejandra Keck and Molly Smith.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This episode was mixed by Liana Squillace.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our researchers are Maren McGlashan. And Ali Elkin.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Email your hometowns to my favorite murdermail.com.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Follow the show on Instagram at My.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Favorite Murder Listen to my favorite murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And now you can watch us on exactly right's YouTube page while you're there. Please like and subscribe. Goodbye. Are you still quoting 30 year old movies? Have you said cool beans in the past 90 days? Do you think Discover isn't widely accepted? If this sounds like you, you're stuck in the past. Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide, and every time you make a purchase with your card, you automatically earn cash back. Welcome to the now it pays to Discover. Learn [e-mail] credit card based on the February 2024 Nielsen report with the Best All Inclusive Vacation Deals to Mexico and the Caribbean Booking your getaway with Cheap Caribbean Vacations means you have more freedom to do your deal. Whether you want to enjoy snorkeling, endless margaritas and more, or simply soak up the sun and sand in tropical paradise.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

That plan and book the exact way you want at exactly the right price for you by using our exclusive budget Beach Finder. Or find a featured all inclusive package.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

And do your [e-mail] okay, so we all need to get away from the world sometimes. Well, in the all new 2025 Nissan Murano, you don't even have to go anywhere. The Murano is the get away away.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just picture it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The Bose Premium sound system plays your favorite music as the Murano's massaging leather appointed seats melt away your stress. Yeah, that's a real getaway. Drive the all new 2025 Nissan Murano today. Bose and massaging leather appointed seats are optional features.