476 - Sprinkles and Googly Eyes

Summary

Episode 476 - Sprinkles and Googly Eyes

Release Date: April 17, 2025

Hosts: Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Network: Exactly Right and iHeartPodcasts
Podcast: My Favorite Murder

---

Introduction

In Episode 476 of My Favorite Murder, titled "Sprinkles and Googly Eyes," hosts Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark delve into two compelling true stories. The episode meticulously weaves historical intrigue with personal drama, offering listeners both educational insights and emotional depth.

---

Segment 1: The Amistad Trial

[13:27] Karen Kilgariff: "I'm gonna tell you a story."

Karen introduces the segment by setting the stage for the historical recounting of the Amistad trial, a pivotal event in the fight against the transatlantic slave trade.

Historical Context and Arrival of the Amistad Schooner

The story begins in the fall of 1839, as a mysterious schooner appears off the coast of New York Harbor. The ship, later identified as the Amistad, is in disrepair, with tattered sails and seagrass growing out of the hull. Inside are 30 black men who speak an unidentified African language, along with two Spanish captors, Jose Ruiz and Pedro Montes.

[15:00] Georgia Hardstark: "Wow."

[15:02] Karen Kilgariff: "So he's there at that time and place."

Karen provides background on James Covey and Charles Pratt, both African men who play crucial roles in communicating with their captors and the authorities.

Legal Battle and Abolitionist Support

As news of the Amistad spreads, abolitionists recognize the opportunity to challenge the ongoing illegal slave trade. They rally support, secure legal representation, and bring the case before the courts. Notable abolitionist John Quincy Adams takes up the defense, arguing passionately for the freedom of the captives.

[25:18] Georgia Hardstark: "Yeah."

[25:19] Karen Kilgariff: "He goes into the jail and basically is able to communicate through signs."

With the help of James and Charles as translators, the captives' testimonies reveal the brutality of their kidnapping and the inhuman conditions they endured during the Middle Passage.

Supreme Court Decision

Despite political pressure and the looming threat of civil war, the Supreme Court ultimately rules in favor of the Amistad captives, declaring them free individuals illegally transported into slavery. This landmark decision not only freed the men but also energized the abolitionist movement, setting the stage for future civil rights advancements.

[34:05] Karen Kilgariff: "It's almost like blaming you for killing someone, right?"

[34:26] Karen Kilgariff: "They kidnapped them from their families."

[34:37] Georgia Hardstark: "Wow."

[35:19] Georgia Hardstark: "He's your ultimate. He would know."

[35:22] Karen Kilgariff: "Yeah."

Impact and Legacy

The Amistad trial had far-reaching effects, bolstering abolitionist sentiment and contributing to the eventual abolition of slavery in the United States. The freed men resettled in Sierra Leone, some establishing missionary schools, while others returned to their families, forever altering the course of American history.

[37:09] Karen Kilgariff: "Thank you."

---

Segment 2: Toby Young and the Infamous Dog Crate Prison Break

[41:20] Georgia Hardstark: "It starts around 10:30 AM on February 12th of 2006..."

Karen and Georgia transition to a modern true crime story about Toby Young, a dedicated mother and animal advocate, whose life takes a dramatic turn leading to an infamous prison break.

Background on Toby Young

Toby Young, born in the late 1950s in Kansas City, Kansas, grew up in a large Catholic family. From a young age, she assumed parental responsibilities due to her father's accident, fostering traits of determination and perfectionism.

[44:28] Georgia Hardstark: "Living With Conviction."

Her journey through education and career showcases her resilience, eventually leading her to create Safe Harbor, a successful prison dog adoption program that partnered with inmates to foster and train dogs for adoption.

[56:08] Georgia Hardstark: "It's big. Toby ends up leaving her job at the vet clinic..."

The Relationship and Plotting the Escape

Toby's dedication to her program strains her marriage, highlighting emotional disconnect and personal sacrifices. Amidst her fulfilling work, she meets John Menard, a charismatic 27-year-old inmate involved in the program. Their bond deepens, culminating in a plan to escape with the help of the dogs she's fostering.

[62:24] Georgia Hardstark: "Cause she's a real follower."

Despite warnings and the high stakes, Toby proceeds with the plan, driven by a mix of personal motivations and emotional entanglements.

[66:09] Georgia Hardstark: "John lost 25 pounds so that he could somehow control his 6 foot 4 frame into a cardboard box..."

The Escape Attempt

On February 12, 2006, Toby executes the prison break by hiding John in her van under the guise of transporting adopted dogs. The attempt is fraught with tension, culminating in a high-speed chase and a crash that leaves both individuals injured but alive.

[73:06] Georgia Hardstark: "Toby's father dies of cancer just months into her incarceration..."

Legal Consequences and Aftermath

Toby faces legal repercussions, receiving a 27-month sentence for her role in supplying firearms to a convicted felon. The aftermath of the escape strains her relationships further, leading to personal loss and eventual redemption through advocacy and new beginnings.

[78:43] Karen Kilgariff: "Wow. Yeah. I did not know that story."

[78:44] Georgia Hardstark: "And if you haven't. Oh, there she is."

[79:04] Karen Kilgariff: "And we'll reach... All the things."

Toby's story, as recounted through multiple sources including her memoir Living with Conviction and a detailed podcast episode on Criminal, underscores themes of redemption, the complexities of human relationships, and the quest for purpose amidst chaos.

---

Conclusion

Episode 476 of My Favorite Murder masterfully intertwines historical legal battles with modern personal dramas, offering listeners a rich tapestry of true crime narratives. Through detailed storytelling, notable quotes, and engaging dialogue, Karen and Georgia provide both educational insights and emotional resonance, staying true to the podcast's unique blend of true crime and comedy.

---

Notable Quotes:

• Karen Kilgariff [34:26]: "They kidnapped them from their families."

• Georgia Hardstark [56:08]: "It's big. Toby ends up leaving her job at the vet clinic because she's spending upwards of 15 hours a day on this new project..."

• Toby Young [75:01]: "I'm proof that a single choice can change everything, that we're not defined by our worst moments, but by how we rise from them."

• John Menard [74:22]: "I love Toby and was 100% committed to her. Why did I stay with her once I was out if I was just manipulating her?"

---

Learn More:

To dive deeper into these stories, listeners are encouraged to explore the sources mentioned, including Toby Young's memoir Living with Conviction and the Criminal podcast episode featuring her firsthand account.

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This summary captures the essence of Episode 476, excluding advertisement segments and focusing solely on the core content discussed by the hosts.

Transcript

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is exactly right. You know those commercials where a single impossibly shiny car glides down a beautiful winding country road with a horse running along a fence?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah, that's not real life.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

That's H Y U N d a I usa.com or call 562-314-4603. Goodbye.

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[Karen Kilgariff]

Hello, and welcome to my favorite murder.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's Georgia Hardstart.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's Karen Kilgariff.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're simply trying to podcast, that's all.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Will you let us live?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's all we want to. Maybe this would help if I just did a little.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If you started doing a new thing where you put a paper clip as a hair piece, a little hair clip.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's actually cute.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Does it? Wait, hold on. I'll just hide it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God. It's actually cute.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It looks like you could sell that for 30 bucks at, like, a cute store.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Think so?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's cute.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hey, designers, get on this. I'm the curator.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Paperclips are the new hair clip.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, that makes me think of, like, when I used to just put A random safety pin on my shirt. Punk rock just put like Catholic school punk rock. I was like, this isn't allowed. But I swear to God, I put.

[Karen Kilgariff]

One through my eyebrow in junior high.

[Georgia Hardstark]

How'd it feel?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was so superficial, you know, it wasn't. It was like skin. It wasn't like a deep piercing, but I thought it was fucking cool.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did you have to ice it before and after? And then smoked a Capri. What was the day like? Walk us through that day.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I got sent home from school immediately.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, oh, you did it at school?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I did it before school got there. Got sent home immediately, ladies and gentlemen.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This was the 90s.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, it sure was.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Where eyebrow piercings were not common. No, I see the girls these days with their septum piercings like it's every other girl doing a TikTok. Where I'm like, this would never have been the trend. I would have guessed would have come caught on the way it does.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you think it's weird that? I don't think it's weird, but it's funny that tongue piercings haven't come back like everything else. And like the kids these days are like, no, dude, like, that's. Even jinkos are okay, but tongue piercings.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Tongue piercings are like. It's so incredibly dangerous.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so dumb.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's just for you. And like, is it a kind of like, I'm having sex presentation?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think there's probably a connotation there of that, but it's also just like I'm punk rock. I definitely. I had done at 15. It was.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You pierced your tongue?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I got it pierced at 15. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're like, I did not do it myself.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did not do that myself. No. And I still have the scar, you know, the whole bump from it. It's really. I have to fucking use my tongue scraper real hard on it every morning.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's so funny. Why don't we talk and just think about it? Just think about.

[Karen Kilgariff]

To get back at your mom for unknown reasons. You really showed her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know some of the reasons. I'll stand by as you recount them. And I will witness. I will witness.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There are reasons.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's real good reasons to pierce your whole goddam.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right. What do you got? Anything going on in your neck of the woods?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not really. I mean, just this hair. I feel like when I see my hair, there's pictures of us when we were in Chicago and my hair looked furious and like it was dying at the same time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think it's all you and you're in and around. In and on your head.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In and around my head.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, I had said about the hotel we stayed at that they gave me a hair dryer from, like 1985, so my hair was a fucking rat's nest. But you were like. You had like a high end hair dryer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, mine had multiple settings for cool. You know, when it can go cool. You're like, this is an incredible product.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But I think my hair doesn't like being blown dry. I think I just am in that realm of like. It's like, can you just leave me alone for five seconds?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's easy. That's easier than blow drying, for sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, and just sitting across from, like, your hair is the done version of what my hair is supposed to be, but it can't get there. It just won't go.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. It takes a lot of product and straightening and things and prayer. And what's your favorite product these days.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That you've been using to get ready? Do you have any recommendations with my hair? Anything?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God, there's so fucking many something you love. Wait, let me think. What do you love?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, I have a, you know, Korean toner pad that I'm using that I can tell the difference is getting rid of, like, spots on my face.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it's just the Jiyu toner pad. It's orange and green with big writing. This is Jiyu.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Very expensive. But you can wait for them to go onto flash sale.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But like, usually a thing of toner pads is $19, and these ones are like 52. But they actually work.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know. Okay, then I have one that's also expensive, but it works. The Color Science spf. SPF that turn. It's white. And then it turns out, just bought that. Oh, that's like. There's very few times Vince goes, your skin looks good, because he just doesn't think about it. But when he does do it, I'm like, what's on it? Because whatever it is, it's fucking working.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's your ultimate. He would know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Like, if he, you know, because he's a dude, he doesn't pay attention a lot. But when he compliments me, I'm like, what is it right now that he's complimenting? And it's usually this Color Science SPF that turns tan when you put it on or whatever.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it literally adjusts to. I mean, this skin tone is impossible to find base for. And I got that and put it on and rubbed it and was like, it's actually doing it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's just the color it's supposed to be.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it's great. Boom. And then you're wearing your spf, but you have makeup on, right? One layer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

SPF out the door. God. Okay, we have a podcast network.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hey, we have a podcast network.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's all kinds of things going on in it. We like to tell you about them. Do you want to hear some?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Now, it's called Exactly Right Media.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, that's true too. I never do this part.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hey. First up on Wicked Words, journalist Joseph Cox tells a story of how the FBI tricked high level criminals into using an encrypted messaging app that the FBI secretly created. Turns out they didn't even need to make one up because some people will.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just, they'll get right on there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They'll just text anything to anyone.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They're like, it doesn't need to be private.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, it's all from Joseph's book Dark Wire. And you're gonna wanna hear every detail on Wicked Words.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Joseph Cox, Dark Wire. I wanna read that. Over on Bananas, Kurt and Scotty cover the most important news of the week. The weird news, including the first ever snake found in Ireland.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They've got snakes in Ireland now?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's how we know it's all over.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, Jesus.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This feels like a real problem for my people.

[Karen Kilgariff]

On Ghosted, Roz talks to comedy icon and drag race legend Bob the Drag Queen. They get into sleep paralysis, Ouija boards, and the time Bob had a psychic encounter with a ghost.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, Bob the Drag Queen, one of the funniest performers in standup comics around right now. So, so talented. Also, over on I said no Gifts, Bridger keeps the show rolling even after Edie Patterson, the great Edie Patterson, hilarious comedic actress. She's from the Righteous Gemstones. That's how you. And she comes and forces Bridger to accept a gift. He only asks for one thing and no one will give it to him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. And finally, a quick reminder for our people out there who'd like to shop. But you hear our ads and they're quick and you're driving and you don't have the promo codes. We give you all the promo codes on our [e-mail] promos. So you'll have murder 30, you'll have the links to the websites. We'll tell you everything, whatever it is@my favoritemurder.com promo. So it just helps the show out a little bit. If you are going to buy something from these Ads just to like let them know we sent you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're like, hey, I'm going to get an article couch, but can't I get 20% off? Maybe my good friends Karen and Georgia might enable. Oh, this was the thing I was going to show you. Somebody sent this in. Natasha, I believe this is on Instagram and It's n t shot 86. She wore the pearl heart shirt I shall never submit shirt to the day of action protest and tagged us and I just. That's kind of what that shirt was invented for.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I feel like, love it at a protest. Looks amazing. Maybe we'll post it, but thank you. Make sure you tag us when you're wearing your merch. Just like, what are you even doing right now while you're wearing our merch? We'd love to see it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Also, I like that you said the people united cannot be divided.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Love it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Getting it done. Thank you, Natasha, for showing up to that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Hey, Karen, I want you to picture yourself going for a drive. What comes to mind?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not ever being able to merge on any freeway in Los Angeles. And potholes and crying.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah. Well, the truth is the road can feel like it's out to get you at every turn. But Karen, it doesn't have to be this way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

This is needed. Hyundai vehicles are equipped with the standard driver attention warning system, which constantly monitors your attention levels. I oh my God. Once detected, it sounds alerts and visual cues to help bring your focus back to the road.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, get this for me right now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

That's H Y U N d a I usa.com or call 562-314-4603. Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right, I'm first.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, Sit back.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm gonna tell you a story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Please do. I'm gonna Keep this paperclip in my hair while I listen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm gonna cold open this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I'm gonna start in the fall of 1839.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, fuck.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. You know you love it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're in the New York harbor, which means it's bustling. There's hundreds of ships from all around the world unloading cargo and travelers. I mean, what a time and place.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Imagine the sales.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The sales and all the languages being spoken, all the different people and hustle and bustle. And the actual bustles.

[Georgia Hardstark]

People, little kids, bustles. That must be what hustle and bustle is from.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah, right. Must be.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Also, there's like six year old boys smoking pipes working those ships. Longshoremen, children.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Longshoremen, children.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's so true. Among these thousands of people is a teenage sailor in the British Navy named James Covey. James is black and was originally born in the West African country of Sierra Leone, but as a child, he had been kidnapped by Spanish traffickers intended to be sold and enslaved. So James then endured the horrific experience of being loaded onto a ship with hundreds of other captives. But because by this point, the transatlantic slave trade was already illegal, British forces captured that ship and freed the captives. So James spent the rest of his childhood being raised by a British missionary in Freetown, the capital of Sierra Leone. And in his teenage, he joined the British Royal Navy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So he is there at that time and place.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, got it. That's a huge adventure unto itself.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What a story.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. That morning in New York Harbor, James and another sailor with a similar backstory, Charles Pratt, they hear something they haven't heard in years. Remember all those languages being spoken? They hear someone counting from one to 10 in Mendi, which is the language of their childhoods in Sierra Leone, something they very rarely if ever, hear nowadays in the British army and here in the us.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can I tell you about a TikTok that makes me cry every time?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Have you seen it? It's the guy and I'll look it up. He can speak so many languages. So he stands in popular tourist areas and as people walk by, he says, excuse me, where are you from? And sometimes people don't want to talk to him, and essentially they'll say. And then he immediately starts speaking their language and the way their faces change. The one I saw this morning is two women from the Republic of Congo, I believe. And he immediately starts speaking their language. And they're like, what? How do you. And it's like this thing where he's so good at it. It's like he can speak more than just a couple phrases and switch. So someone will be like, well, but I was raised in Turkey. And then he starts speaking and it's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like they just feel like, connected all of a sudden.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. And they're like travelers and they're tourists up to that point that are kind of isolated. It's beautiful.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow, that's amazing. So they hear this 1 to 10 being counted in their childhood language. They make their way through the crowd to try to find the source of the counting. The person who's counting in this language is a white American man. And they like, excitedly and curiously approach him to find out who he is and how he knows their language and what TikTok is. Right. It turns out that the man is a linguistics professor. So that checks out from Yale named Josiah Gibbs. And James and Charles, it turns out, because of this moment, are going to be key players in saving about 40 lives and will help set America on the course to eventually abolish slavery. This is the story of the Amistad trial. You know it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ooh. Well, I've seen the movie, yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. You've either seen the movie, you were there that one day. They talked about it in elementary school, and that's like it. You just don't hear about it much.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, not at all.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. So, yeah, there's a 1997 Steven Spielberg movie called Amistad that portrays the story. Historians say that what it gets right is the horror of the transatlantic slave trade. They show that with haunting accuracy. However, the movie does kind of travel into some white savior territory, of course, so we're gonna try not to do that. So it's not a perfect movie. Just so you know. I also watched a 1995 documentary called the Amistad Revolt. It seems like it was made for, like, high school children or something like that. And the other source is the Supreme Court decision from this case. And the rest of the sources can be found in the show notes. All right, so let's back up from the harbor a month or two. We're at the end of August in 1839. There are reports off the coast of New York of a sighting of a strange looking schooner or ship. It appears to have been at sea for months. The sails are in tatters. There's seagrass growing out of the hull. It's just a weird sight. And mariners who have gotten close enough to the ship report that the crew appears to be comprised of about 30 black men who speak no English, French or Spanish. It only what's presumed to be a Language from somewhere on the continent of Africa that white Americans in the mid-1800s can't identify. So that's just out of place for sure already. Eventually, the ship winds up off the coast of Montauk on the tip of Long island, and that's where it's intercepted by the US Brig Washington, a ship that's tasked with surveying the coast. So they, like, basically pull over the ship. When that ship's lieutenant boards the schooner, which is called the Amistad, he finds that in addition to the group that other people have already seen, there are also two Spanish men on board, two Spanish white men on board. They're named Jose Ruiz and Pedro Montes. So Ruiz and Montes claim that they own everyone on board and that they were overthrown in an uprising by these people. A modern audience, of course, will instantly recognize that these two men are. Are human traffickers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The lieutenant brings the Amistad and its captives across the Long Island Sound to New Haven, Connecticut. And at this point, the use of enslaved laborers has been outlawed in almost all of the northern states, but is still legal in Connecticut. So what a coincidence that they ended up there. A federal district judge named Andrew Judson charges the men with mutiny and murder. And there's four children there as well, and they're held as witnesses, which just basically means they're prisoners as well. They're all put in jail in Hartford, Connecticut. So Ruiz and Montez give their version of what happened. The two Spaniards, they say that they bought all of the people, 39 adults and four children in Cuba. They were transporting them on the Amistad to a sugar plantation on another part of the island. And one night during this trip, the men broke free and used tools for cutting sugar cane to kill the captain and the cook. They let Ruiz and Montes live under the condition that they sail them back to Africa, which was towards the direction of the rising sun. So they agreed and did that. But at night, the Spaniards would reposition the ship so that it actually made its way north to United States, where it was eventually pulled over. This journey takes two months, and 10 of the enslaved people die from dwindling supplies of food and water. So.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So it was like, in the daytime, they would make them go this way, and then at night, they would redirect.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That way so that they were sneaking. Yeah, okay. Yeah. And, like, you know, if you don't have a map in front of you or, like, know how to read the sky for signs, you don't know where you are. Yeah, Right. So Ruiz and Montes story, it seems Fishy for a big reason. They're being very vague about where this group of people originally came from. At this point in time, the use of enslaved people for labor is still legal in parts of the US and in Spanish colonies like Cuba. But the kidnapping and trafficking of new people from Africa has been illegal in both the United Kingdom and America for 30 years. It's been illegal in Spain for the past 10 years, though the Queen of Spain kind of turns a blind eye to it. But as you know from watching the movie, the Queen of Spain is 11 years old, as played by Anna Paquin.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Really? Yeah, I don't remember that part.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And in fact, Spain has a well known and extensive illegal human trafficking market. And at the very center of it is a man named Pedro Blanco. In 1822, Pedro had set up what becomes known as the Lamboco slave fortress on the coast of Sierra Leone. And there he works out deals with some local leaders to hire kidnappers to bring people to him from the interior of the region. So this isn't people who, you know, lost a war. This isn't people who were born into slavery. These are people being kidnapped from their normal everyday lives, their regular lives, being kidnapped because they are worth money to these people. He also has Spanish employees who do this as well. And once kidnapped, his victims are held in chains at this sprawling facility, which is at the mouth of a river, before being put on ships to be brought to the Spanish colonies where they are to be sold. So they're still doing the slave trade even though this is illegal? Everyone knows this is happening, especially Spanish authorities. But Sierra Leone is a British colony, and British authorities actually do try to enforce abolition. But the problem is that no one's been able to figure out the precise location of this fortress. So while Britain is trying to attempt to, like, root out this illegal trafficking or this kidnapping, the American government and many white Americans don't really pay attention or care.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Seen that before.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So there's this contingent of American abolitionists, many of whom are motivated by their Christianity, who want to make people confront the evils of slavery. One of these abolitionists attend one of the first court proceedings for the Amistad party and find out that none of the group appears to understand English or Spanish. So this leads him to suspect that they have been illegally trafficked from Africa. That's, you know, if they had been born into slavery, they would speak some English or Spanish. That means that Ruiz and Montes actually have no legal claim over them because they're asking to get their ship back and their property back, which are these people who were aboard the ship who rebelled. So this guy sees it as an opportunity to make more Americans confront the barbarism and horrors of enslaved labor. This abolitionist coordinates with others from other northern cities, and they put together a fund for the Amistad party's legal representation. They hire a lawyer named Roger Sherman Baldwin. He'll later go on to be the governor of Connecticut. The initial charges of murder and mutiny are actually dismissed because of a jurisdiction issue. But Ruiz and Montes argue that the Amistad group are their property and should be returned to them. And they have their own lawyers arguing this case. At the same time, Spain argues that both the ship and the people are stolen property belonging to the. Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, because it's so late in the timeline, right? 1840.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Well, it's the little before the Civil War.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, truly. But just like it's not the 1600s.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right? Absolutely. The US Attorney appointed by President Martin Van Buren is arguing this case on behalf of the US And Spain. Of course, the Amistad party's lawyers argue that they are free people who were kidnapped and escaped from their captors, so they should be released. The federal district judge orders that the Amistad party remain in custody until this issue is settled, and five members of the group ultimately die while being held in jail. In Ruiz and Montes's story, they claim that the mutiny on the Amistad was led by a man named Sangbe, and he's often referred to as Joseph Cinque, but that's the name the Spanish captors gave him. So we're going to continue to call him by his real name, which is Cinque. So it's true that Singba does seem to be in more of a leadership role within the group, but of course, his lawyer can't communicate with him because he doesn't speak any English. Nobody does. He's not even sure what language they speak. So Baldwin hires Josiah Gibbs, the Yale linguistics professor we started our story with.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He goes into the jail and basically is able to communicate through, like, signs to have the captives teach him to count from one to 10 in their language, and they figure out what's going on, and they do that. So with the knowledge of 1 to 10, this guy is, like, great. Goes to a very busy place, a busy port where lots of languages are spoken, and starts loudly counting 1 to 10 in that language until someone actually does it, approaches them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Brilliant.

[Karen Kilgariff]

James Covey and Charles Pratt. And are able to come back with him to the jail to become the translators. To be the translators. God, that's good, I know. So as soon as the group meet these new translators, they are overjoyed because they can finally tell their side of the story. Very quickly. Decaptive stories emerge, and three of their testimonies are used in the court proceedings, including that of Seng bei, the leader. And their story, like, gives us a crystal clear historical record of the 400 year stain on humanity that was the transatlantic slave trade. So Singbe had been a rice farmer. He was living in a community a bit inland in Sierra Leone. He had a wife, he had three children. And one day he was walking on the road near his village, and he was attacked by four men who had been hired through that network overseen by Spanish traffickers. They just stopped this family man and kidnapped him. He's eventually brought to a vast facility on the coast, that one we talked about early, the Lomboko slave fortress. And he and hundreds of other prisoners are held chained in pairs so that they can't run away. Sengbe and all of the others from the Amistad were then forced with a group of 500 other people onto a Portuguese ship. Sangbe says that the ceilings below the deck were only four feet high, and all the people were chained together. There was no room to move at all. He says that the majority. And you know, you see these old drawings from back then, and it's legit, like sardines. You just take as many spots as can be filled with people laying down as possible, chained together in horrid conditions.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The scene from Amistad is the thing that I thought when you first started talking about people being on those ships. Cause it is so I just like when we use words like horrible, it's not the right word. It's like it doesn't feel expansive enough or like, deep enough, but it's like it's just a human nightmare.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Sengbe says that the majority of the people on board had been women and children. And he says they were given small amounts of rice to eat. And they were beaten, of course. And that many of the prisoners died while on board this ship. This horrific journey known as the Middle Passage would have taken weeks or months. And the movie Amistad does portray this part with chilling accuracy. So it is a good one to watch for that. Segbe's story then aligns with what Ruiz and Montes have been saying. Those who survive the journey disembark in Cuba, where about 50 of them are trafficked to Ruiz and Montes, basically sold to them. They bring them aboard the Amistad to sail to a Sugar plantation on another part of the island, as I said. And again, they're chained below deck, and again, they're given very small amounts of food and water. Another man tells the translator, James, that in desperation, he had attempted to steal an extra sip of water and was severely beaten. They had alcohol and salt applied to his wounds to make them hurt even more.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He also says that the cook on board the ship told the group that they were eventually going to be murdered and eaten. So they are terrified. Obviously, many of them believed that they were going to be eaten, and it seems like maybe the cook was just with them or it was true. I don't know. But given everything that already happened, why wouldn't they believe that? You know what I mean? It sucks. It aligns. So there's an even more pressing sense of desperation within the group to escape. So, one night, Singbe pries a loose nail out of the shtip, out of the boards and uses it to pick the lock on his shackles. He frees the rest of the men in the group, and they find the sharp tools that are used for cutting sugar cane. And they just use these tools. They. They take over the ship. They kill the captain and the cook in the struggle, but they keep Ruiz and Montes alive because they know how to sail the ship and tell them to take them back home. Which, of course, as I said, they followed instructions during the day, but not at night. So, at this point now, it's 1840, a little over 20 years before the start of the Civil War, and There are about 2.5 million enslaved laborers living in the United States, almost entirely in the South. They are almost all ancestors of people who were kidnapped from Africa and brought to America between the mid-1400s and 1808, when the Atlantic slave trade is supposed to have been abolished. But, of course, there's also been a trickle of newly trafficked people brought illegally from Africa, as I said. So when these harrowing accounts from the Amistad Party are made public, more and more people speak out on behalf of the group, arguing that they should be allowed to go home. This causes President Martin Van Buren to freak out, essentially because it had been his call to keep the Amistad Party jailed, and it was his U.S. attorney who was arguing against the Amistad Party in court, saying the group should be returned to Cuba as property of Spain. So it was against what the President was pushing for. Van Buren is from upstate New York and doesn't even have strong feelings about slavery, but he needs Southern votes to be reelected, and so he can't be seen as the president who recognize the humanity of enslaved people because it will turn the public opinion more in favor of abolition. So he has to have a hard stance on it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Cause it's big business.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because I need to be elected or I'm not a real man.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's like. But it's money. It's money and power all the time. And then pretending that these aren't people.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. At this point in time. There's also a gag order in Congress preventing petitions against slavery and thus preventing a lot of debates about it on the national stage. And so this is a somewhat rare moment when the actual, like, pure evil is shown in government proceedings. It's almost like they're able to use this, the abolitionist, as their speech of why this is wrong. Something they couldn't just do of their own accord.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So even though the situation for the Amistad Party is different than for enslaved people born in America, the case is seen as a referendum on the use of human captives as unpaid laborers. So a verdict in favor of the captives would force people to reckon with the humanity of black people, which would potentially push the country closer to civil war. But the case with the testimony from the Amistad Party, translated by James and Charles, is basically a slam dunk. Baldwin demonstrates to the court that the Amistad party was born in Sierra Leone and that Ruiz and Montes actually showed false paperwork saying they had been born in Cuba. The judge rules that they are free people who have been illegally kidnapped under the laws of the US and Spain, and orders that they be returned home. But let's not celebrate yet. President Van Buren appeals the decision first to the Circuit Court, which upholds the district Court's decision, and then to the Supreme Court. And it's almost like, good that he does this because it gets a bigger platform than it would have if that had been the end of the trial and they had been sent home. Seven out of the nine Supreme Court justices are from the south and in their own households, they themselves enslaved the descendants of people who were trafficked from Africa. So what the fuck do they care, right? The abolitionist asked former President and current Massachusetts congressman John Quincy Adams. You know him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

To represent Giamatti, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

To represent the group in court. By this point, the Amistad group have been in Connecticut for about a year, and many of them have learned some English. An 11 year old boy in the group named Kali writes to the former president personally, asking how he would feel if someone carried his children and friends away to another country. He writes, all we Want is make us free. It's just like this really heart wrenching letter.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

John Quincy Adams takes the case, which appears before the Supreme Court in February of 1841. Adams, who has always been known for his oratory, is that right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sure. Like speech making.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Well, he speaks for hours. Yeah. Yeah, he does. Demonstrating the absolute lawlessness of the Amistad's party's captivity, like just in general, how illegal the whole thing is to begin with. The Supreme Court finds in favor of the captives, saying in their decision that as free people, they were entitled to do whatever it took to defend themselves and escape their captors.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hell, yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's almost like, you know, if you are being held captive in a basement by some serial killer and you have to kill him to get out, then they're like blaming you for killing someone, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, it's like the stand your ground law, but it's reversed because then it's not a big white guy standing in his doorway. You have to reckon with the fact that it's like, can't anybody defend their own life?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it is their life that they stole.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They kidnapped them from their families. I mean. Yeah, it's shocking that they actually. That they were found in favor of them. It's really amazing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Especially in 1841.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So the Amistad party, they go to live in Farmington, Connecticut, a town that's been referred to as the Grand Central Station of the Underground Railroad. So they build housing for them there, and so they can raise money to secure their passage back to Sierra Leone. There's not a ship that they can just put them on and return them. As part of their fundraising efforts, members from the group from Sierra Leone go to speak at abolitionist fundraisers, telling their stories and reading from the Bible and singing hymns. So in 1842, the group, which is now 35 people, they are able to secure enough money to get their passage back to Sierra Leone, along with several American missionaries. Cause they have to convert them to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Christianity there, otherwise that's always gotta be in the mix.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it's like that's gotta very important, unfortunately. So once they get there, some stay in Freetown in Sierra Leone, the big city, establishing the missionary and a new school. One of the children from the group, Sarah Margru Kinson, actually returns to America and winds up attending Oberlin College as one of the first black female students. And she had been on the Amistad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Incredible.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Others from the group return to their families and villages, which has to be amazing. And the British Navy finds and destroys the Lamboco Slave fortress finally in 1849.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Then the Civil War begins in 1861, as you know. So 20 years after the Amistad group returns home. But the abolitionist groups that consolidated around the Amistad case will continue to pressure Americans to confront the evils of enslavement and will go on to form organizations that still exist today. This includes some of the first black colleges and institutions that trained some of the leaders of the civil rights movements. So it's all connected. And that is the story of the Amistad trial, when a group of brave survivors helped America gain a toehold on its still faltering path to justice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nice final line.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was all Ali. Ali Elkin, my researcher.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Amazing job, Ally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And, Georgia, thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love that story. It's such a good. It is actually kind of like a true adventure story. It's just that the stakes are so horribly high.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's this true crime, like. What's the word?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Swath of history.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. There's a true crime thing where people like, I'm not into true crime. And you're like. But so many things are true crime that you don't think are. And that have to do with history and that have to do with humanity and, you know, people finding a way. And I think that's just. This is a perfect story for that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Nice one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That fit real good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Hey, Karen, I want you to picture yourself going for a drive. What comes to mind?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not ever being able to merge on any freeway in Los Angeles. And potholes and crying.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah. Well, the truth is, the road can feel like it's out to get you at every turn. But, Karen, it doesn't have to be this way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because Hyundai's available advanced safety technology is designed to help keep you protected from all of life's twists and turns.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Their vehicles offer available features designed to help safeguard you and your loved ones.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You can change lanes with confidence thanks to the available blind spot view monitor, which actually shows you a live video feed of your blind.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The standard forward collision avoidance assist can help prevent or mitigate accidents by alerting you of imminent collision. Oh, my God. This happens to me all the time. And automatically applying the brakes if you don't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is needed. Hyundai vehicles are equipped with a standard driver attention warning system, which constantly monitors your attention levels. Oh, my God. Once detected, it sounds alerts and visual cues to help bring your focus back to the road.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, get this for me right now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

With available class exclusive safety features, Hyundai helps to keep you safe so you can enjoy the drive.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Learn more about [e-mail] or call 562-314-4603 for complete details.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's H Y U N d a I usa.com or call 562-314-4603. Goodbye. Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

As the weather starts to get warmer and we can finally go places again, it's time to face a hard truth. Your travel wardrobe is not ready.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You can't bring bad F on your vacation. They won't let you out of the airport.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fortunately, we all have quints. They have high quality travel essentials at fair prices.

[Karen Kilgariff]

With quints, you can get quality luxury essentials without a hefty price tag, like lightweight European linen styles from $30, washable silk tops and comfy lounge sets.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And Quint also has premium luggage options and stylish tote bags to carry it all.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Everything is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Because Quint works directly with top factory, they cut out the middleman and pass the savings on to you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

George I don't want to brag or anything, but I just got a box of three brand new quint sweaters because I wear my 50 Mongolian cashmere sweaters that I got years ago so much that I was finally like, I need to freshen this up a little bit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

For your next trip, treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve from quince.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Go to quince.com mfm for free shipping on your order and 365 day return.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com mfm to get free shipping and 365 day returns.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Quince.com mfm Goodbye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Spring is in the air. And that means open windows, outdoor plans, and more time away from home. All the things that burglars love.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, bad news, burglars. Now you can protect your home with Simplisafe.

[Karen Kilgariff]

With Simplisafe, millions of Americans enjoy greater security and peace of mind every time they arm their system.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Traditional security systems only take action after somebody has already broken it. That's too late.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But with active guard outdoor protection, Simplisafe's monitoring agents closely watch your property and stop crimes before they happen.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The cameras use advanced AI to distinguish between friendly faces like family and neighbors and potential threats, alerting agents to suspicious individuals before they get close to your home.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So I get that ping on my phone, on my app that tells me when there's someone like on my lawn, I'm such an old lady or like, you know, walking up my driveway because I live up off the street and you shouldn't be there if you're not meant to be there. So, like, if I get the ping that someone's on my lawn and I'm like, I know something's up and I can check it before they even get to the door or break in in the window, it's great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Visit simplisafe.com fave to claim 50 off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and get your first month free.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's simplisafe.com fav there's no safe like Simplisafe.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye. When you started this story, I was just like, what's this story gonna be that I'm gonna be taking a left turn from? So there's never been a further left turn than the topically, we both know this story.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It starts around 10:30am on February 12th of 2006, outside of the Lansing Correctional Facility, a state prison in Lansing, Kansas. It's a snowy, blustery day and 48 year old Toby Young is pulling up to the prison in a van. She's a married mother of two sons. She's got a sweet and familiar disposition. Writer Michael J. Mooney, who will write up a big old article for the Atlantic that we use as one of the primary sources in telling the story. Michael J. Mooney will report that she has, quote, a wry smile and auburn curls. She could be your neighbor, your librarian, your aunt.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What if she saw three of those things?

[Georgia Hardstark]

So Toby's at the prison today because she runs a dog adoption program that partners, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. I don't know for sure. Yeah, go ahead.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She partners rescue dogs with inmates at the facility who then foster and train the dogs until they're ready to be placed in their forever homes. But before she passes through the final gate into the prison yard, Toby stops. She cuts her van's engine and waits. The inmates lined up with their dogs are out in the wind in the snow, so they're impatiently stomping their feet and waving for her to hurry. Actually, the weather is bad enough that if it was any other day, Toby would have rescheduled this just due to bad weather. But she has to be here today. And the reason why she has to be here has her heart racing. Toby takes a moment to search the prison yard. She sees the things she's looking for as a guard rolls a covered metal farm wagon into the prison yard. Toby arranged to have this wagon brought out on her visit today. She told them that it was loaded with odds and ends, that she'd left behind on previous visits, like leashes and bowls and maybe a dog crate or two. But panic washes over her as she sees the wagon's tires buckling under the weight of its cargo. It's obviously carrying more than just a few pet supplies. Toby takes a deep breath. She starts the van again, and she proceeds through the final gate and into the prison yard. She greets the small crowd of inmates waiting for her. And as she loads the dogs into her van, she hopes that the sound of them barking, being placed in their crates and the inmate's goodbyes will draw attention away from this approaching wagon. With her stomach still in knots, Toby watches as the clueless guard loads that heavy wagon onto her van, knowing full well that in this moment, if one tiny thing goes her entire life, a life where she's always done everything according to plan, will be destroyed. This is the story of Toby Young and the infamous dog crate prison break.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't think I know the details of this at all.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The main sources of the story is Toby's memoir, Living with Conviction, an article that ran in The Atlantic in 2020 by writer Michael J. Mooney, and a 2019 episode of Criminal. Oh, yes, that. Toby actually gets interviewed by Phoebe Judge on that. That's really great and powerful.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow. Living with Conviction. That's a good fucking name for your book.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, right? Living With Conviction.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I love that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, so we'll start at the beginning. Toby Dore is born in the late 50s in Kansas City, Kansas. She grows up in a big Catholic family. This is so sad. When she's just five years old, her father is involved in a terrible accident doing yard work outside their home. He's clearing and burning a bunch of branches and his clothes catch on fire. And of course he's badly burned. He spends eight months recovering in the hospital.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it's of course, a terrible stressful time for the family. Five year old Toby, who's the eldest daughter of seven children, rises to the occasion, as we know that eldest daughters always are forced to do, even if they're five years old.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right? Five, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

With her father spending so much time fighting for his life in the hospital, and of course her mother often needing to be there with him, Toby becomes a royal for her family. Michael J. Mooney reports. Quote, Toby felt it was her responsibility to take care of her younger siblings. She wanted to solve whatever problem was in front of her. She changed diapers, packed lunches. A five. She's five. I can't. Thinking about Nora when she was five years Old and all the things. She couldn't close a goddamn cabinet and still can't to this day. Nora. It's just little kids adapting to the situation that life puts them in.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. You're so grown up. That's me. That's like, well, thanks. I had trauma as a child. I was forced to be grown up. I was forced.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I wanted to live in the dipshit world that all those other kids were living in. Didn't get to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, sorry.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Who am I yelling at? She changed diapers, packed lunch. We're still mid, quote, packed lunches. And tried to provide stability in a stressful time. She was less like a sister than like a third parent. One of her siblings would later tell the Wall Street Journal. So fortunately, Toby's dad is eventually able to leave the hospital. He's still struggling with serious injuries. He has limited movement in his arms. But he does have to go back to work to support his family. So he winds up finding a job with the railroad as a machinist. And he often tells his kids to, quote, deal with what life gives you. So that's kind of the family motto. Yeah, I don't think you need to be telling that to your five year old daughter who ran the fucking house while you were.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's already doing that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She has six children right now. Michael J. Mooney writes, quote, toby internalized the lesson. She was a perfectionist, the type who spoiled the curve for her younger siblings. She never got drunk, never tried drugs in high school. She was the president of the pep club and dated the star of the baseball team. So she was going to make it work.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. She was everything for everybody.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Okay. So then when she's 20 years old, she marries her high school sweetheart, who is also from a religious family. And the way she describes it, this marriage is more about meeting expectations and less about romance. She'll later say, quote, I never really dated anyone else. We got along. We didn't fight, so we might as well get married. So many. That's how it was, how so many families began.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then they're like, why did everyone get divorced in the 80s? And it's like, cause that's how people.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because that was supposed to be their ex boyfriend.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But they marry. I keep spitting at you, but they get in your early 20s. That's what happens.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. And also this idea of, like, you have to, or your aunt will be upset.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's nice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We never fight.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We never fight. Hey, nothing wrong because we have no passion.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nothing wrong with fighting because there's no Passion.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Get it out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Toby and her husband mostly follow the path that's expected of them. They buy a house close to Toby's parents. They start a family. They have two sons. And meanwhile, the cracks are starting to emerge in Toby's marriage. Her husband seems to be a decent man who provides for the family, but. But the two are emotionally disconnected and are more coexisting than operating as a healthy, loving couple. Toby will later say, quote, there were several times in our marriage that I realized this has not been a good choice. But I didn't know how to get out. I didn't know how to make a change. Instead, Toby relies on the old mantra from her father, Deal with what life gives you shit. So she does this by keeping herself incredibly busy. She's very attentive and an involved mother who's always there for her sons. But she also works a day job at a utility company, and she takes college classes at night. Can you imagine doing any of those things? Even one?

[Karen Kilgariff]

One is too many.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's a reason that we podcast professionally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, truly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So before long, Toby has graduated with top honors from college with a double major in business administration and accounting.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Damn.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So not the fun classes. She didn't go as a theater major. No, she went and really got it done.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, she had two children and a fucking day job. Yeah, good for her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She and her husband, meanwhile, seem to spend less and less time together, especially as their boys grow up. Then in the late 80s, when Toby's just 30 years old, she gets a job as a project manager with Sprint. Remember good old Sprint?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They used to really be a big part of our lives.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They really were.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She ends up working there for nearly 15 years before being laid off during the dot com bunch of the early 2000s. So Toby is forced to pivot. She's always loved animals, especially dogs. So she takes a job as a technician in a veterinary clinic. Then one day in 2004, she's 47 years old, and she notices a lump on her neck.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She asks one of the vets to take a look. Cause she's at work, and he says, you have to have that looked at immediately. When she does, a doctor informs her that she has thyroid cancer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Whoa.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Looking back on the diagnosis, Toby will eventually tell Phoebe Judge of the great podcast Criminal that, quote, you know, even though thyroid cancer is very treatable, hearing your name after the word cancer is devastating. Yeah, I can't imagine it causes you to stop and take stock of your life. I realized that I could go at any minute. And I didn't want to leave this earth and not have done anything to have made it a better place. First of all, mother of two young boys.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Why are you acting like you did? You have.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, just like. It's a huge fear of mine, the cancer thing, where it's just this suddenly you have to be this brave fucking person. When really it's the most terrifying thing that can happen to a person. One could say that they have to confront their mortality at 47 and feel.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like it's almost over.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. If it's over, are you happy with what you brought? You know, answer that, answer that. Most people would say no right now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

23 year old that's listening to this. It's a good. I mean, I have to say there was a lot of death in our family when I was 12 years old. Three different people died when I was 12. And it was really crazy, mind blowing. And there were people that were close to us. And literally that day forward, I was like, I'm not doing fucking anything I don't wanna do. And it was that kind of like, what's the point? If this whole thing is just to find out one day or drop dead one day, or get cancer one day, or lose your mind one day, then what's this part for?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's a big lesson to learn at 12, let alone at our age.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I was looking for an excuse, though, because I was like, I'm really tired of doing what other people tell me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Anyway, here's why. Here's why now. Not that I have Defiance disorder or anything like that. Nothing. No, no, it's just real.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Except for that I was right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. Anyway, I'm a Buddhist.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Look where I got to. So in this life changing moment for Toby, she actually successfully treats her thyroid cancer. Thank God. But her energy is gone. The treatments leave her confined to a recliner. And in that downtime, she ends up finding a TV show that inspires her in a way that she doesn't expect. And it's a TV show called Sell Dogs. So this is a quote from her later. She says Sell Dogs was a program that ran on Animal Planet for a few years. It was set inside of a prison. They had dogs in there. The inmates were training them and they were taken out for adoptions. I love dogs. That's kind of an understatement. I thought that would be my dream. I could make a difference if I could do something like that. If I could start a prison dog program, I know I could change the world.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So she's so excited by this idea that she tells her husband. And this part broke my heart. Like, I cried in my office a little bit. He suggests Sell Dogs is made up for television. That's his fucking answer to his wife, who's beating cancer and is saying, hey, with that in the rear view. Here's what I'm inspired by.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A thing we learned in couples therapy, Vince and I, is that, like, it takes nothing for you just to sound supportive. It takes nothing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not one fucking thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're not saying, I'm doing this tomorrow and putting our life savings into it. They're dreaming. And to support that dream. Cause I am a dreamer and Vince is a realist. Yep. I'm not going to move to fucking Spain or whatever. Like, let's just talk about how fun it would be.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm not gonna go do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yep.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can we just have an imagination session of how fun something can be? It takes nothing out of you to do that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Could have sworn this was gonna be about Vince's hardcore band. But I guess it's about.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I support all of it. I'm a dreamer. I'm like, yes, hardcore band, do this, do this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well. And also, I think that's a really good lesson to learn, kind of for the relationship overall.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But I think there is this thing when you're in a relationship with a person who isn't interested in the connection in that way, where it's like, I'm telling you about a thing that lights me up totally. Why doesn't it light you up that I'm lit up totally, you fucking asshole.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. It takes nothing from you to do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That, to even just appreciate your partner's happiness or excitement.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right, Exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But Toby isn't discouraged. You know why? She's been married to this man for quite some time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's not surprised.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Also, this is just her side. I don't wanna get too. I love to be, like, shitty or whatever. This man, at the end of the day, is also a victim of the story. So whatever their relationship was after the fact, one person talking about what it used to be like sucks as well.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. So Toby's plan basically from all of this is to convert their barn into dog kennels so they can take in and foster stray dogs. And she's so into it, she starts redoing it. And her husband joins her eventually.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So full credit to that. Thanks, sir. That was already there. And it's the least anyone could ask of you. Anyway, Toby begins to take in strays and get them adopted. So by the summer of 2004, this business and enterprise is going so well, she puts up a website to advertise it. And a few days later, someone from the Lansing Correctional Facility reaches out to her. They asked Toby if she'd like to collaborate on a program within the prison. And Toby is elated. Her dream to create her own version of Sell Dogs is actually coming true.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So she got the idea. She pitched it. No one was gonna help her. She's like, I don't care. I'm gonna do it myself. She does it herself. The people join after the fact when it's real and material and there's something there. And then she gets herself there. So at this point in her life, her sons are in their 20s, they're out of their house. So she throws everything she has into this program. She's gotten her college degrees. She's done it all. So she's now doing this fully, and it turns out to be a huge success. It's called Safe Harbor. It becomes the largest prison dog program in the United States at the time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So she doesn't just do it. She takes her accounting and her business and all her things, and she makes it happen. They ultimately place more than a thousand foster dogs in permanent house.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God. That is so amazing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's big. Toby ends up leaving her job at the vet clinic because she's spending upwards of 15 hours a day on this new project, visiting animal shelters, looking for dogs to foster, taking them to vet appointments, placing them, working with their new foster inmates who live with and train the dogs from their cells. So she's doing every part of it. She loves the work. She finds it deeply fulfilling. But it makes the disconnect that she has with her husband of 28 years even more obvious. She tells Phoebe Judge, quote, I probably spent as much time inside the prison as an officer that was on duty. It became my entire life. My husband resented it, but we didn't have a good marriage. It was just one more way that I did my own thing and he did his own thing. I never did come home and talk to him about anything that was going on because he just wasn't interested in it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's the worst part of the relationship, which I've definitely been in in past relationships of, like, you go have this great time with friends or whatever, and then you're like, oh, I guess I gotta go home now. You're, like, not looking forward to it. Yeah, that's how you fucking know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Like, you gotta have somebody even if they're waiting under A blanket, watching a show they don't want to turn off when you come in and they're like, how was it? They're actually asking you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If you can't even have that bare minimum, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I'm excited every time I get to go home and tell Vince. Talk shit to Vince.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, yeah, that's the idea.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. As we're leading to, Toby starts to feel very lonely and she yearns for a more loving and passionate relationship. But she's also experiencing what she describes as a self made prison of perfectionism. Basically, she's become resentful of her careful, cautious approach to her life. And as fate would have it, this is when she meets a 27 year old inmate named John Menard who is enrolled in the foster dog program.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's just like ripe to meet a hot fucking convict, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hell yes. Who is like, maybe I will manipulate into doing a bunch of things.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

John's six foot four, redhead, tatted. Oh, yep. Tattoos. Who Toby describes as, quote, swaggering everywhere he went in the prison, like he owned the place or he was in charge.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Damn.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You'd just be like, yeah, who's that? Who's that? You know my song, who's that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's what you'd be singing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Who's that? Toby soon learns that John is incarcerated for his involvement in a carjacking when he was a teenager where a man was shot to death. So even though he didn't fire the shot that killed the victim, he was convicted nonetheless.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So she's able to like empathize a little bit. Enough to like. Well, to like talk herself out of it being a problem. Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's not really. He's not technically a murderer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And also a 6 foot 4 redhead with tattoos, swaggering around.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, quit it. And fucking teaching a pit bull how to behave.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Get out of here. Into your dream project that you are now the kind of boss of.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And also that is having an effect. I don't know if you've ever watched any of those shows or documentaries, but the effect those animals have on inmates in the actual rehab that starts taking place is amazing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's like half the point.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, yeah. So she's a part of that too, which is probably really a beautiful thing to get to see.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So Toby's not afraid of Jon, obviously. Probably even maybe just a little bit adds to it. She is immediately captivated by his confidence. And their bond deepens after a scary encounter at the prison where one of the men in Toby's program gets angry and actually like, comes at her like he might hit her and steps in and basically stops it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Come on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

From here on out, Toby trusts Jon. Their bond deepens. He starts watching out for Toby. So, like, when she arrives at Lansing Correctional, he meets her at the prison gate. He sticks with her when she's on the prison grounds. He works alongside her during the various training sessions with the other inmates.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fucking bodyguard.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. Hot prison bodyguard.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, Bodyguard.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm like, eyes on. Who doesn't want that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, for sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So now they're spending a lot of time together. And while they aren't allowed to have any physical contact, they come to understand each other on a deeper level. And then in all caps, I just wrote, ugh. Cause it's like, sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, it's. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Extenuating circumstances. Circumstances.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So many circumstances.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So many skircumstances. And then Toby's father is diagnosed with stage four cancer. And John offers her emotional support. He tells her things like, quote, you deserve someone who wants to make you the center of their world. Which Toby describes as, quote, like pouring water on a dying plant. Yeah. Which is kind of how it is. I think that's like, that's why love bombing is such an effective tool that people use. It's like the quickest, fastest manipulation of, oh, you seem to be in need of this thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, you're kind of giving something away. So he wasn't falling in love with her too. He was manipulating her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, that's my judgment. Yeah, I'm being judgmental.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, so there is no, like, this whole time. Well, don't tell me at the end.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But let's find out together.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. Cause I'm like, maybe they did fall in love. I'm being optimistic about it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm so negative. But to me it's like we're at a prison.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Where people usually get locked up for being dishonest somehow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. But he, since he was a teenager, he's in his late 20s, he hasn't had any contact or connection with a woman.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You want there to be a bad boy good guy in this. Oh, he's like, oh, his gentleman is coming out. Because he's like, oh, he's finally able.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm thinking it's real for now, but let's keep going.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's fun for the movie. So he says that she says it's like pouring water. He then tells her that he loves her. Toby, who again is a self professed rule follower, knows that she shouldn't even be entertaining a future with John. She shouldn't even be having this conversation with him. But as they talk more and more, it starts to feel real. And beyond that, it feels very nice. Like she's finally getting something she really needs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Seriously.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So what happens now is the obvious next step in the story arc of falling in love with a convicted criminal almost half your age.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You start planning his escape.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You just have to. Now here's, I think, the test.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If all of that happened. And then he's like, I'll see you in 17 years when I'm outta here, baby girl.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They get married in prison and she comes to every visitor thing and downshift dogs.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But that ain't it. So we downshift into third gear.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I say that's the thing. Or is that upshift either way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Down. Well, if we're in fourth and you go into third.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I'm saying we're in second. And now we're going up into third so that we can go down into fourth.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. Well. And then also, like, I bet it was his suggestion that maybe you should help me get out, not hers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think so too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because she's a real follower.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And kind of a normal lady that's just like a very tall redhead is giving her very nice attention. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Prison break isn't the first thing that she thinks of when she thinks of her life.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. What she's bringing to the table, she's like. But did you see this wonderful pit bull that I let you pet? Okay. So all of this brings us back to February 12, 2006, which is where we started that blustery, wintry day. Toby's nervously watching the oversized wagon being loaded onto her van. Her heart is racing because, you guessed it, John's hiding in it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They've sorted it all out. Toby has withdrawn $40,000 out of her 401k.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which is worth around how much? 2004. 40,000.

[Karen Kilgariff]

120. 60.

[Georgia Hardstark]

3,000.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Shit. Inflation. I don't understand it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. I know these days John lost 25 pounds so that he could somehow control his 6 foot 4 frame into a cardboard box that could then fit inside a dog crate.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I feel like in prison, people need to pay attention. If a prisoner loses a huge amount of weight, they're trying to fit through.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A pipe they're trying to fit through somewhere.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Maybe stand in that crack next to the refrigerator in the wall for a little while so people stop noticing them. Amid all the chaos of that morning, the barking and the dogs being loaded onto the van. No one asks any questions about the wagon or why it's so heavy. So Toby starts her engine and simply drives away like she always. And as she does, she immediately regrets it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But she's so far into this plan and everything about it that she has no idea how to get out of this situation. So she does what she'd normally do, which is drive home and unload the dogs into that barn that's been retrofitted into kennels. And as she starts to do this, she obviously gets John out of his kennel, and he start rummaging around the property, and he ends up finding two pistols. This worries Toby. John convinces her they're just for protection because they have so much money on them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Where are these pistols coming from?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's a farm.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But, I mean, he's looking, so that's the other thing. They then ditch the van. Toby recently purchased a pickup truck for a few thousand dollars. So they get into that, and they drive all night on the back road to a remote lake house in Alpine, Tennessee, that they've reserved using a fake name. So they basically get out of town immediately.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

On the way, John kisses Toby for the first time. And he's the only other person that's ever kissed her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Besides her husband, who was her high school boyfriend.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All the excitement, too, and the adrenaline. And then this kiss. That'd be like the best kiss.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The best.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Absolute best.

[Georgia Hardstark]

On the way to the lake house.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ugh. Kiss me now. I can't even wait.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I did all caps. Ugg.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You did.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's a similar. Ugh. But it's that same kind of thing where it's like you're scared it's happening. What?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is this worth it? I don't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is it real? I mean, all of it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Kiss.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So she's still not feeling great, and with good reason. John has taken all the cash. He won't give her the keys to the truck. And then he throws her cell phone into the lake so she can't call anyone. So the worm turns relatively quickly. He's also now having angry outbursts when anything goes wrong. Like when they get turned around and have to stop at a restaurant to ask for directions.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no. You're all in. And you've never even driven with him. Like, that's a mistake.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. You don't know. What? How he talks to waitstaff.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Totally.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And you're all fucking in to the point where you've withdrawn money at the 401.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You've just blown up your entire life.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But he was so nice in the mess hall.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. But I'd never seen him get angry before. Oh, no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Before when he was planning on trying to get. Get me to get him out. Okay. So Toby's trying to focus on the good things, deal with what life has given her in the moment, even as John becomes more reckless. She says, quote, john was really interested in eating fried chicken and a lot of foods that he wasn't able to get inside prison. Totally understandable. He played the guitar, and I brought my mandolin with me, and he'd play music, and we just talked a lot. That lasted for a day or two, and then John said, I don't want to just stay in this cabin. I want and see things. Let's do some stuff. End quote. So this was like the big romance. Didn't even last two days. So they go out, they take a day trip to Nashville where John shops for guitars. They go watch Walk the Line, the Johnny Cash biopic, Walk the Line at a movie theater. Another time, they go on a trip to Chattanooga. They see a movie about lions at an IMAX theater wearing disguises. Because. Because by this point, the headlines have been out like, everyone knows there's been a prison escape. The authorities are trying to track them down. Toby and John know this because they've seen the papers while they've gone out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

On these adventures, and they know she's in on it. She's not a captive.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think so.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Even still, they keep going out into public. Twelve days after the prison break, the pair visit a mall in Tennessee, now about 100 miles south of Chattanooga, where John buys a copy of where the Red Fern Grows from a bookstore with Toby's money, of course.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I loved that movie. I mean, that book when I was a kid.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's a sad one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Dog book. As they're leaving, two police officers just so happen to spot them in the mall parking lot. They are not expecting to see them, but they are actively looking for them in Tennessee because Toby had used the cabin's address when filling out paperwork for their getaway truck. I would recommend to not do that next time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Toby will later comment that she, quote, wasn't a great criminal.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This woman. That's okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This woman, this poor, misguided woman.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She got took.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So now the police have located Toby and John. They call for backup. They quietly tail the couple for around 60 miles as they head back to the cabin in Alpine. As John and Toby approach their rental, they're met with a huge traffic stop and obviously the jig is up. John asks Toby what he should do. Being the rule follower that she is. She tells him to pull over so they can surrender to police. But instead of that, John hits the gas, swerves off, weaving through traffic at 100 miles an hour before eventually taking the truck off road and slamming it into a tree. Toby is still overcome with regret. She wishes for dad. Understandable. She survives the crash with just a few minor injuries. So does John.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What was his fucking plan? Kill them both?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know. Or just like, try to get away and do your best? And what? I mean, it's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. There's no planning.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All of this planning is 3/4 planning. My least favorite kind. I like it when we run through scenarios A, B, C, D, E and F. But whatever. Escape from jail. However you want.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do your thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do your thing. Oh, my paper clip's coming out. Hold on. Reset.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It looks good. Telling you, I like that. A little punk. Little riot girly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just a little. But it's like. We're like library punk. Yeah. As Toby comes to, she can hear John calling out to her. Quote, are you okay, baby? Are you okay?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Aw.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, that says something.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's a realness to it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He did just crash the car himself. But then he wants to know if she's okay, so. It's not a great relationship.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's not. Look, we can have these kinds of relationships.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Listen, they're there for a reason.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Pickable.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't stay in them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Truly learn from them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Promise that the second he darts away when he says, what should I do? And you say, pull over. And he fucking goes 100 miles an hour in the opposite direction.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Thank you. Next.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you. Next. And even if he calls you baby.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Keep on going.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're going to learn. We're going to learn this time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Someday.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They're both removed from the vehicle, handcuffed and placed under a roof. Toby, who, among other charges, is found guilty of supplying firearms to a convicted felon, gets 27 months in prison for her involvement in this jailbreak. Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm sorry. I thought it'd be way more than that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's two years and three months.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. But supplying, I mean. Yeah. Okay. All right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

For a regular mom.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Two years in jail.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That doesn't sound like a lot to me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What if you would do it right now?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I wouldn't. Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, no. I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What I mean. Yeah. No, it would be a lot if.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I had to do it for sure anymore.

[Karen Kilgariff]

For sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But based on her charges, you're right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It doesn't seem like an even amount of time for. What's it called? You know, they don't balance.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. I don't think the thing doesn't fit the thing exactly. But when love comes into play, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I'm not trying to say I want her to be in fucking prison more. I'm just not on the jury and I'm not the judge, but like, well.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It almost is like, how do we keep things from happening? Or longer prison sentences the way to do that. But I think when love is in.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The mix, does the punishment fit the crime?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. She's already been punished by fucking ruining her entire life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Truly ruining it. And she's out 63 grand.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay, okay, okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This out of character stunt stuns her colleagues, her friends and her family members. It's also the straw that breaks the camel's back in her marriage, of course, which actually. Good. Like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, good. You could have done it a lot quieter.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. How about just a nice mid sized fight at the TGI Friday and then.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Go home and say, I'm just done.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm done.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm sorry I broke that beer mug.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You don't have to blow up your entire life to change your life.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And if you feel that you're following that little opium trail of the roasted.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Chicken smell like you're floating through the.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Air on a cartoon tall guy pretending to love you, stop it. Just, I don't know, grab a relative, get someone to look you in the eye and slap you across the face.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Therapy. Go to our promo page because there's therapy promos in there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

For sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You can start by texting and then just go from there. Okay. Her now ex husband tells reporters that her crime has, quote, affected me physically, mentally and monetarily. Don't like the third one. And that it was very difficult for her sons who quote, had to say, yeah, that's my mom, end quote. Well, guess what though. She's not just a mom, she is a human fucking being. And what your sons say about you as a mother is not the whole story about who you are as a person. Who am I talking to?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Toby's father dies of cancer just months into her incarceration, which of course is devastating for her. She's also said to this day, she has strained relationships with multiple members of her family. Of course.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Most tragically, she never gets to mend her relationship with one of her sons who passes away in his 20s because he gets hodgkin's lymphoma.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, horrible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

John Bernard, meanwhile, gets another 10 years tacked onto his sentence in response to accusations that he manipulated Toby by feigning a romantic interest in her. Let's let him speak.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He said, quote, I love Toby and was 100% committed to her. Why did I stay with her once I was out if I was just manipulating. I love Toby with all that I was.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I believe I'm going to believe it, but I want to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, I could just answer the second question, which is you stayed with her. Cause she was the one that had the $63,000.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It had only been like a week.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And the keys to the truck. And then you got rid of her phone. Okay. Anyway.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, he got rid of the phone so they couldn't track them. It's not. So she couldn't call anyone.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Where's his fucking phone?

[Karen Kilgariff]

He doesn't have one. Did he not.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is where Sprint comes back into the. No, just kidding. Toby, meanwhile, says this. Oh, this will solve it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cause it's not me projecting quote. I think it's probably a bit of both. I do think he cared for me, but I've since come to appreciate that if you love someone, you don't ask them to do something that puts their life in danger.

[Karen Kilgariff]

For sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Toby, the cooler head prevailing in this situation. Yeah, but I actually do like that. I didn't realize that he said that about her. Where it's like, hey, I actually was committed to her and I did love her. Cause at least then she has that. Yeah, it's like a full scam.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're not. Not a complete fool.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's not like that sucks. What was that? Love scammer documentary? And the guy kept opening fish restaurants with women's money. Remember that one?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Vaguely.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so confusing. And you're just like, what are you doing? How, how, how and what?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Having had a divorced mom in the 80s, I can tell you exactly how I watched it happen. Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's just kind of like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's just so many.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'll take it. Mustaches and fucking Volvos and Chablis.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Chablis. Warm iced Chablis in hotel motel rooms. Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You gotta get it somehow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. Over time, Toby moves on from John, though they maintain a friendship.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cause he's in jail. Meanwhile, she completes her sentence. She moves back in with her mother. So she starts over. She gets a job in web design and tries to deal with people. Stares and whispers when she's out in public. Horrible. Around the Same time, she meets a man named Chris who she says makes her feel safe and supported, and the two get married in 2009. Oh, good. So she comes back from all of it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Love that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm happy you did it to yourself, but I'm still happy. You get a happy ending and, like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You'Re fixing it for yourself.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's what life is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just know for a fact that other people have also broken a 6 foot 4 redhead out of jail. In their own way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We've all done that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Different nouns, same diff, different nouns. Everyone does it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, I'm writing that down.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The two marry in 2009, when Toby's in her early 50s and they continue to visit John in prison every so often.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I kind of love that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, then I am wrong and I will change my stance, because that's kind of beautiful.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know. I'm really. Now I really am.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like, thank you for everything you gave me. Even if it was fucking Delulu. And I don't know. They still talk. I love that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's lovely. Okay. They do that every so often. Until 2024, when John Menard passes away at the age of 45 from an undisclosed disease.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oof. Prison.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He died inside.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Horrible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When that happens. Toby writes on her Facebook, quote, john is finally free, but I am crushed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Over the years, Toby has tried to atone for her role in this jailbreak. She's developed programs geared at helping people break the cycle of incarceration. That's great. And has positioned herself as an advocate for women. She sees her story as a way to burst open taboo conversations about feeling stuck in life. She said, quote, I'm proof that a single choice can change everything, that we're not defined by our worst moments, but by how we rise from them. My story is one of transformation, of breaking free, rebuilding and stepping into a fierce, unshakable purpose.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Beautiful.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And that's a story of Toby Dore, which is her current name, Toby Dore. And the infamous dog crate Prison break.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow. Yeah. I did not know that story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And if you haven't. Oh, there she is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let me see her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let me see her. Look at her. Oh, yes, with her dogs. If you haven't. Truly. One of my very favorite episodes of Criminal Podcast is Toby's episode when she tells the story to Phoebe Judge firsthand. It's really good. You go through it with her. You go, what are you doing? All the things.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And she's completely honest and upfront, lays it all out Good for her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it's great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow. Okay. Great job.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow. Let's do some fucking hoorays to end this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Shall we?

[Georgia Hardstark]

What's exciting about fucking Hoorays right now is that you can send us your fucking hooray in almost any way modern day possible. Email, you can do a comment on a YouTube, you can do it on Instagram stories. You do it anywhere you want.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And we'll reach, Read it, email. All the things.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All the things. Do you want me to go first?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is a YouTube comment from episode 474. And this says Hooray. I started my dream job teaching English language night classes to adult refugees.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Most of them are working parents who want to give their kids better lives. Their bravery and determination are so admirable and their desire to learn English is so inspiring. I feel incredibly lucky that I get the honor of being their instructor. So fucking hooray for me and fucking hooray for immigrants. And that's from mjwood 728.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's so fitting for this episode.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I have a fitting one for this episode too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is from YouTube as well. I'm so excited you guys have brought this back. Fucking hooray. We need more positivity given the current administration emoji. Anyway, I wanted to shout out my younger sister who just celebrated 15 years of being in remission. We had a cancerversary party in her honor, and it was a great way to remind everyone to celebrate their wins and throw a party, even if it's not a bachelorette or baby shower. I'm so proud to be her big sister, Molly. She her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did you say a remotersary? What was it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cancerversary.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh. Oh, that's so brilliant.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Any party, anytime. Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Celebrate things literally.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Be like, this is the last block of cheese in my cheese drawer. It's cheese party night.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's cheese party. Put a candle in it. Put sprinkles on. People need to be putting sprinkles on way more things than they do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, Sprinkles. Sprinkles and googly eyes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And candles.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, okay. Here's my second one. This is hilarious. It says Karen and Georgia. Oh, this is from email. Karen in Georgia today I spied a bumper sticker that said, honk if you'd rather be watching the 1999 cinematic masterpiece, the Mummy, starring Academy Award winners Brendan Fraser and Rachel Wise. Oh, my God. It made my day. I have been mentally honking all week. Fucking hooray. It's from Michelle. And then it's says PS Multiple email here. Snacks from beyond the grave. Sister befriended a murderer. Mom babysat a murder victim.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, we gotta look those up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, for sure. But I almost feel like. Could she have been driving behind Brandy Posey? Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did you see the tote someone made? It went viral. That's. You know those totes you get from like L.L. bean? And you can put your.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, that's a big trend. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Someone write Piper.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. Hi.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Instead of a monogram.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is that amazing?

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's so good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, this one's from an email. Hi, MFM team. It took 15 years of blood, burns, sweat, and tears to pay off my culinary school loans. But this week, I did it. No help. Just pure hustle. After years of navigating depression, anxiety, and therapy, I feel an immense sense of pride in this accomplishment. Fuck government loans and the stranglehold they have on so many hard working people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yep.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you for everything you do. Exo. Chef K. Ooh, Chef K. Where do you work?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Invite us to the place you make food.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We'll come to get the tasting course.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We'll get whatever you want.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just put it in front of us and we'll eat it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And if it's at Denny's, we'll fucking eat those mozzarella sticks.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hell yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We don't care.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, we're not discerning people. Thank you guys so much for listening.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, thanks for being here with us again and stay sexy and don't get murdered. Goodbye, Elvis.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you want a cookie?

[Georgia Hardstark]

This has been an exactly Right production.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our senior producers are Alejandra Keck and Molly Smith.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This episode was mixed by Liana Squillace.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Our Researchers are Maren McGlashan and Ali Elkin.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Email your hometowns to my favorite murdermail.com.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Follow the show on Instagram at. My favorite murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Listen to my favorite murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And now you can watch us on exactly right's YouTube page while you're there. Please like and subscribe. Goodbye.

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