477 - The Greatest Depression

Summary

My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Episode: 477 - The Greatest Depression
Release Date: April 24, 2025

---

Introduction

In Episode 477 of My Favorite Murder, hosts Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark delve into two compelling stories: the tragic and complex case of Linda Riss and Burt Pugach, and the lesser-known historical event known as the Great Emu War in Western Australia. Balancing their signature blend of humor and empathy, Karen and Georgia navigate through these narratives, offering insightful commentary and engaging discussions.

---

True Crime Segment: The Tragic Love Story of Linda Riss and Burt Pugach

Timestamps: 21:43 – 56:35

Karen Kilgariff introduces the harrowing true crime story of Linda Riss and Burt Pugach, a tale entwined with obsession, abuse, and media sensationalism.

Key Points:

• Initial Encounter and Obsession: In June 1957, 30-year-old attorney Burt Pugach becomes infatuated with 21-year-old Linda Riss after seeing her in a park. His immediate and intense attraction leads to a relentless pursuit characterized by lavish gifts and extravagant dates. Karen notes, “From the moment I saw her from 30 feet away, I fell hopelessly in love with her” (25:10).

• Escalation to Violence: As their relationship progresses, Burt’s behavior becomes increasingly volatile and controlling. Despite initially appearing charming, Burt's manipulative nature surfaces as he pressures Linda to marry him and accuses her of infidelity without cause. The situation deteriorates when Burt, unable to accept rejection, orchestrates a brutal attack by having a delivery man throw lye in Linda’s face (27:18).

• Aftermath and Legal Battle: Linda suffers severe injuries, including permanent scarring and the loss of an eye. Her attempts to seek help are initially dismissed due to Burt's influence as a lawyer. However, persistent investigation eventually leads to Burt’s arrest in October 1959, securing justice after extensive harassment and manipulation (35:58).

• Complicated Relationship Post-Trial: Surprisingly, after serving ten years in prison, Burt is paroled in 1974. Despite Linda’s wish for him to remain incarcerated, social and psychological pressures lead her to rekindle their relationship. They marry in 1974, a decision influenced by societal expectations and personal trauma (49:16).

• Enduring Bond and Legacy: Over the decades, Linda and Burt maintain their marriage, becoming media fixtures. Their relationship continues to be fraught with complexity, culminating in Linda’s death in 2013 and Burt’s controversial handling of her estate posthumously (54:55).

Notable Quotes:

• Linda Riss expresses her anguish, “I never trusted Burt. I never trusted men” (25:18).
• Upon accepting a marriage proposal, Linda reflects, “I am now damaged merchandise” (41:54).
• Linda’s final sentiments on aging and betrayal reveal deep emotional scars: “I didn’t think it was long enough. I wanted him to rot in there” (35:02).

Karen and Georgia critically examine the media’s role in romanticizing such toxic relationships, highlighting how societal pressures can trap individuals in cycles of abuse.

---

Historical Anecdote: The Great Emu War

Timestamps: 60:39 – 81:01

Switching gears, Georgia Hardstark presents the bizarre and almost surreal historical event known as the Great Emu War, which took place in Western Australia during the early 1930s.

Key Points:

• Background: Post-World War I, thousands of soldier settlers moved to Western Australia, encouraged by the government to cultivate farmland. However, the soil quality was often poor, leading many to turn to sheep farming and wheat cultivation (61:03).

• Triggering Factors: In 1929, the Great Depression struck, and by 1932, farmers were instructed to increase wheat production. This, combined with a severe drought and land development, created an ideal environment for emus, native Australian birds, to thrive and subsequently devastate crops (62:37).

• The War Begins: Frustrated by the emus' destruction of wheat fields, approximately 20,000 emus migrated into affected areas. Farmers, unable to fence their lands adequately due to high tariffs on barbed wire, sought military assistance. The government dispatched three soldiers with machine guns, led by Major Meredith Purvis, to combat the emu population (73:14).

• Military Failures: The emus proved to be elusive and resilient, often escaping after minimal casualties. Over two weeks, despite using 2,500 rounds of ammunition, the military managed to kill only around 300 emus. The birds' intelligence and speed rendered conventional military tactics ineffective (74:25).

• Outcome and Impact: The operation was deemed a failure, leading to public ridicule and questions within Parliament about the efficacy and ethics of the campaign. Eventually, cheaper fencing became the preferred method of managing emu populations, and in 1999, emus were granted protected species status in Australia (80:18).

Notable Quotes:

• A historical commentator notes, “The emus have proved that they are not so stupid as they are usually considered to be because they do run around like fucking idiots” (75:28).
• Major Meredith reflects on the futility of the campaign, highlighting the emus’ strategic evasion (75:14).

Georgia and Karen humorously juxtapose the militaristic approach to wildlife management with the inherent unpredictability of nature, emphasizing the lesson of coexisting with natural ecosystems.

---

Listener Hoorays

Timestamps: 81:01 – 89:43

Towards the end of the episode, Karen and Georgia share uplifting messages from listeners, celebrating personal achievements and spreading positivity despite the often grim nature of the podcast’s primary content.

Key Highlights:

• Personal Milestones: Listeners share successes such as finishing a marathon or securing a dream job, illustrating the community’s resilience and support.

• Positive Reinforcement: The hosts encourage listeners to continue finding joy in small victories and maintaining optimism in challenging times.

Notable Quotes:

• Listener Rachel shares her experience attending a Bernie Sanders event, stating, “It was surreal and it filled me with such hope in this very dark time” (85:25).

Karen and Georgia conclude the episode by reinforcing the importance of solidarity and personal growth, encouraging listeners to stay strong and cherish their accomplishments.

---

Conclusion

Episode 477 of My Favorite Murder skillfully intertwines a deep dive into a tragic true crime story with a quirky historical account, all while maintaining the hosts’ engaging and empathetic tone. Karen and Georgia not only recount these narratives but also provide thoughtful reflections on societal influences and human behavior, delivering a rich and multifaceted listening experience for both long-time fans and newcomers alike.

---

Note: All timestamps correspond to the points in the provided transcript where the respective content occurs.

Transcript

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is exactly right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Prohibition is synonymous with speakeasies, jazz flappers, and, of course, failure. I'm Ed Helms, and on season three of my podcast, Snafu, there's a story I couldn't wait to tell you. It's about an unlikely duo in the 1920s who tried to warn the public that prohibition was going to backfire so badly it just might leave thousands dead from poison. Listen and subscribe to snafu on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In 2020, a group of young women found themselves in an AI fueled nightmare. Someone was posting photos.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was just me naked. Well, not me, but me with someone else's body parts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is Levittown, a new podcast from iHeart podcasts Bloomberg and Kaleidoscope about the rise of deepfake pornography and the battle to stop it. Listen to Levittown on Bloomberg's Big Take podcast. Find it on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In Mississippi, Yazoo clay keeps secrets.

[Georgia Hardstark]

7,000 bodies out there. Or more.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A forgotten asylum, cemetery.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was my family's mystery.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Shame, guilt, propriety. Something keeps it all buried deep until it's not. I'm Larison Campbell, and this is under Yazoo Clay. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. My savior.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hello and welcome to my favorite murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's Georgia Hardstar.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's Karen Kilcara.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're dressed for Easter.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I keep accidentally doing that, like dressing for holidays. For Easter specifically. Oh, I just think I have a lot of pastels in my wardrobe.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know, I feel like Easter was.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A huge holiday in 1962.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. What did you guys do?

[Karen Kilgariff]

First of all, fuck you. I was born in 1970.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's not what I meant. Wow, that would have been so shitty. I was like, really?

[Karen Kilgariff]

What do you guys do back there when you were married to the astronaut? What you used to like to do for fun on Easter?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was a bigger deal. I think it still is, though. I went to the park near my house and there were like three different camps, like doing all the Easter cookout thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And hiding things.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, separate from it being a religious holiday, I do think it is the most fun. Second only to Halloween or Christmas, obviously. But like, it's like a mid spring fun thing for kids that I remember looking forward to it just because it had been like, what are we going to the next thing where we get to like, Have a kid time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally. Well, that must have been nice for you Christians.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, God. We Christ it around all and died eggs. But we did it made me laugh because. So the hospitals are the family we grew up next door to, who we spend every holiday with and did, like, I have pictures of my Uncle Steve with a cigarette in his hand pointing to where the eggs are hidden. Because I'm like, three years old and to the youngest. So we always did Easter together. And we would go and dye eggs like the night before in the barn, blah, blah, blah. And my cousin's TV did that with his daughters and Nora and whatever. But of course, everyone's like, nora's a senior. His daughters are out of the house. So my sister calls because they weren't gonna do Easter. Cause it was just a bunch of adults. And my cousin Stevie called my sister back and goes, we have to do Easter. And she was like, yeah, okay. He's like, we're not just gonna not do it. Just we have to keep doing it. And she's like, okay, can I wear my sweatpants?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's like, getting through it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like since 1972, 63, our families have gotten together and somehow been like, yes, today is the day. Here's some eggs, kids.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Whatever.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Chocolate.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Same with Passover, which involves hiding something for the kids to find. And an egg. Same thing. It's like, so clearly all these things. But the difference is. And the reason we're not as excited about Passover is the hours, it feels like, of storytelling and, like, prayers and shit. Before. You pray over the wine, you pray over the this, you pray over the that. It's like, can we fucking eat? Like, everyone hates it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But then the youngest gets some lines.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, the youngest gets some lines.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that's the day I was turned onto Judaism as a religion and a.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Lifestyle as the youngest. For a long time, it was pretty fucking. That's where I shine. That must be why I'm so good at this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It probably is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. I'm a performer. I'm a natural.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And did you know your lines, or did you have to read them out of a book?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I read them because it looked very, like, studious. Yes, that's right. Very special. And Jewish.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And you're like, these are all the things that I. Will.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Look at me. This was about me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Special studios. That is a really weird parallel, though. I never thought about that. The Passover is based on Jewish Easter, essentially. Or Easters.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, because Christian Passover came first.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. And full respect to you and yours. Thanks for the idea. Ours has a lot less bloodshed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You have more candy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was the one sun. As opposed to any son.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. All the suns. Well, I'm wearing this because I think I unconsciously put it on because I'm listening to Miranda July's new book. It's called All Fours.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So I just cosplayed as her today, completely on accident.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So here we are.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you like that book?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I love the book. She's an incredible writer. But it's one of those things where it's like, this is definitely going to get you depressed. It's like, are you ready to get in that headspace right now? And I don't know what the answer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is, but you're going to find out. I will find out midway.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So that's. That's what I'm doing. Have you heard? I can't believe we haven't talked about this, about Valerie the dachshund.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I thought you were going to talk about the corrections corner that we have. No, I have not heard about Valerie the Dachshund.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Before we get to the bad stuff, let's just talk about the good stuff, which is kind of. It's good and bad. Valerie the dachshund went with her family on a trip in South Australia to Kangaroo Island. They did some camping.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Valerie got loose, and it's been, like, 16 weeks. And she keeps getting spotted owning this fucking island somehow surviving. She won't come to anyone, but she's, like, taking over the island and thriving.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And surviving and basically doesn't want to be found.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know. It won't come to anyone, and her owners are devastated, but it's this kind of thing of, like, man, she's fucking. She's, like, living free, living the island life. I mean, it's, like, pretty impressive. She's just this, like, you know, sporty little lowrider who's just fucking tearing across.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is she, like, hanging out with kangaroos or is that just the name?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know. I don't know who she's hanging out with. I don't know what she's eating or how she's surviving. I don't know where she's sleeping, but she doesn't look emaciated. She looks like there's something going on or she's, like, made a pact with the other animals there, and they're like, they've taken her in.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're gonna help me. I'll be the personality hire. It's me. It's me. The Dachshund.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Valerie.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'll definitely make your party more fun. I can't help you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Valerie.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And hr Or Clean, that is. I immediately pictured her, for some reason, standing on the edge of a cliff, wind blowing. Yes. Like a lizard. Venice in Pride and Prejudice. Exactly. But she's just like, finally, it's the life I wanted.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My domain, my kingdom. I don't know if she's like, a hero for our ages. Like, get the fuck. Run away and fucking go live on an island.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do what you want, Valerie. And to all the Valerie. The dachshunds out there that are listening right now, girl, find your Kangaroo Island.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Get your Kangaroo island, whatever it is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And run around on it and live free. Don't come back for any call or text.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, no. It's so like Cookie. You'd go tweet, tweet, and she'd be at your fucking feet in two seconds. Yeah, maybe. Maybe.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That just reminded me. This morning, Blossom was barking like a lunatic. Which I'm like, is this your new thing in the morning, I looked over. There was a puppy coyote trying to come up onto the patio. And I ran over to make sure, and there were four other ones.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, grown ones or puppies.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Puppies. But, like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And you adopted them all bigger than Blossom. Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And there to make friends so they can eat her later.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Anyway, the coyote drama will not end in my backyard.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. That's terrifying.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was, like, a little pack. And it did look like cute stray dogs. And then I was like, these are the. These are the dogs that eat dogs that suck you. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It takes, like, four of them right now, but in the future, it'll just take one. You know, I've never seen Pride and Prejudice. I know, I know, I know. There's so many people right now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't wanna fight. I don't wanna fight.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's not. There was no, like, decision made, really, because I'm not that kind of girl. And so it never came up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A girl with a heart and a.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Brain and sense and sensibilities.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You truly will love it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know I will. Like, I don't know. It's taking me so long.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, and also Matthew McFadden, everyone's favorite part of succession.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is the romantic lead.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I just read a whole thing about his hand twitch. And I'm like, why? I have to see this. I have to see it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Here's what I'll say. First of all, I literally just watched it yesterday.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It is cinematically one of the more Satisfying movies that's ever been made. It's not just like. It's not just a Jane Austen flick type of thing. Truly not okay. There's so much incredible acting. So many of the best of the best British actors are in this movie. Brenda Blethlin as the irritating mother will free your soul. You will love her so much.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I guess it's just like. I know I'd be a peasant back then, so why do I want to watch fucking rich people traipsing around for real falling in love? I know I'd be a peasant or I'd be a scullery maid, or I'd be, you know, something. Something dirty, something shitty, something with like, my fingernails were always gross.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And like, you have a lot of like liver paste under your fingernails. Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And like so many children for some reason.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So like, why. I don't. I don't know. For some reason, like right now, today, I don't. But back then I absolutely would have.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, you would have been required to definitely give it. You know what, just put it 15 minutes on your timer and then start it and see where you end up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know I'll love it. I know that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. No one get mad at me, please.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no. But there's a bit of the warning of like, oh, this is somehow historical or it's gonna be dry in some way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. It's not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. I mean, the only reason I watched Bridgerton and I liked it was because you told me there was something really dirty in the first season. I was like, I gotta check this out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Should I.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So tell me. There's something in sense and sensitivity. There's like a. Like a Skinemax scene.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. But it's Pride and Prejudice first of all.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's what I meant.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Skins and Skins ability. It's. Yeah, there's an. The really intense fingering scene through it 3/4 the way. Is that what you want to hear? Yes, but it's really like locked eyes. It's insane.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Dr. Shocker comes around and just blows everything out of the water in this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Tiny town in Victorian England.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then it goes back to normal. It's so weird.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's very strange.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Stop it. Let's do this podcast.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's do a corrections corner. And then knowing full well that we're gonna have to do another corrections corner for what I just said about Jane Austen book. Okay, this one makes me laugh really hard because I think our audience now knows us so well that they're like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know what you meant.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Of course. Of Course you don't know this, but I will be nice and tell you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love that. Like, I think what you meant was, like, trying to. Like, we can't think a word, and they know what we're trying to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, truly. And I don't know how many times I have to say this when I just say stuff. That is what I'm doing. There's in no way did I think that as you were retelling me the Amistad trial, that when you were like, John Adams, blah, blah, blah, that I would. That my response was going to be historically accurate from an educated mind. Any of those things?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. No memory. Well, so in the story from last week, the Amistad trial, which is episode 476, I explained that President Van Buren appeals the decision for the Amistad party to return home. And then I say that the abolitionists ask former President and current Massachusetts congressman John Quincy Adams. You know him. I say, to represent the group in court.

[Karen Kilgariff]

My response is, of course, Paul Giamatti.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's your response to everything. They don't always. We always cut a lot of that out because otherwise this whole show would be just talking about Paul Giamatti.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But. But still.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But referring to his. You were referring to his TV miniseries, John Adams.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, Stephanie Listener emailed with a corrections corner. John Quincy Adams is the son of John Adams. It's actually a very common mistake. And then Elizabeth Gray on Instagram also caught it, commenting, I'm so sorry, but Paul Giamatti played John Adams. John Quincy was his son, played by the hottie. Hot. Hot Evan Moss Backrack, who has one of those, like, why he's so hot without being hot, looks like Walton Goggins.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Why am I so attracted to this person?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, I was gonna say because Eben Moss Bachrach, who is the brother from.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The Bear, of course, and from Girls, the fucking incredible. His character was incredible. Total piece of shit in Girls. It was so good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But also, he has a little bit of Vince in his face. To me, when I first watched the Bear, I was like, that guy looks like Vince.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And he has Vince's, like, coloring, too. The blonde. Yes. Oh, my God, you're totally right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And, like, the soft eyes of, like, the eyes of a person that's going, what are you doing, man? All the time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Who knows your actual. Like, he knows what's behind what you're doing, and you can't trick him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, yeah, no, that's real.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And he's gonna use it. This guy, though, he looks like he's gonna Use it against you in the future.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Vince won't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Vince is like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna help you book a hotel with this information that I have about you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is how I know. Like to do something really nice for you. But this guy's like, this guy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Mm. Mm.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm your drug dealer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Careful.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You should be careful. So that's Corrections Corner.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Anyway. Did that help? We drove that one right into the wall. Well, listen, here's what's important. We have a podcast network and there's a lot of stuff going on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There is. It's called exactly right. Media.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Here's some highlights.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. This week on Buried Bones, Kate and Paul head to 1924 England for part one of their two part series about a young couple faced with an unplanned pregnancy and a police force faced with an open and shut murder case. Until a new discovery changes everything.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ooh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then over on the Knife, our newest show that we're so proud of. Hannah and Pasha bring you the story of Jennifer Thompson, a college student who survived her brutal assault. She did everything she could to help identify her attacker, only to learn years later that the wrong man had been convicted. You should be listening to the Knife regularly. It's so freaking good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're so great. Also, they just got featured on itunes in the like the Knife as a podcast just got featured.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's new. And not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Go take a look at that. Hell yeah. And you will see also very new, very noteworthy podcast that we love so much is ghosted by Roz Hernandez this week. Roz is honestly stunned when iconic actor and comedian Mo Collins, who I love the most incredible, the funniest, she shows up with a real life haunted house story that has everything. A poltergeist, a ghost, a portal, and a very freaked out real estate agent.

[Georgia Hardstark]

McCollins is incredible.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So funny.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A natural. Finally on I said no gifts. Two time Survivor contestant Zeke Smith disobeys Bridger with a gift by bringing him a gift. Even though the podcast is called I said no gifts. They don't care and they just keep bringing him gifts. They chat about processed cheese, airport renovations, and the universal truth of dust.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What could it be?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's heavy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What's the universal truth?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's just everywhere and we're made of it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's like in our.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's our skin pores. It's also stars.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, here's a special announcement for anybody listening who lives in the Chicago area. Two of our podcasts are coming to the Den Theater in Chicago. So first the Banana Boys are performing there live on May 8th. And then I said no Gifts is taking the stage to record a live episode on May 23rd. So go to the Den theater, laugh. Then you can come home and listen to your own laughter. A few days later on I said no Gifts.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fun.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How fun.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Go to thedentheater.com those two shows are. I feel like all the shows on our network but those two specifically are so good live.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like you will have the best time. Go by yourself. Bring a first date. It'll like. It'll be fine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Both of those shows. You're completely right. Both of those shows as something to do one night will deliver in every way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Absolutely.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And an exciting march news. This week's episode of Rewind was originally released right after the 2016 election. And we said then our infamous quote, this is terrible. Keep going. And so we're re releasing some of that merch that Karen, if you. If you're watching this on our YouTube page. Exactly right. Media. You'll see all this fucking incredible. Oh, my God. That T shirt's great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is that right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I knew you would love that. We brought it back. We have made a gigantic tote bag that you can root around in forever.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You guys are tote people.

[Karen Kilgariff]

These sweatpants, which I told the story the other day, I wore my own merch out because these, they're the best. Pants are so comfortable. You don't want to take them off.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I have the Vicky I married ones and they're like the softest thing I've ever.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're real good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So soft.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So soft and very casual that it's. This is terrible. Keep going. It's just kind of right up on your hip.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I might take these home.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Pretty low key. And then of course, the mug. The mug. The best mug ever. And I love this color combination.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Blue and light blue are my. Dark blue and light blue are my favorite combination.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Real nice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Very good. So go to exactlyrightstore.com and you can see all of it and get whatever you feel like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. And you know, with all the protests that are basically happening every weekend now, just remember that this was a saying that you and I came up with. One of us said, this is terrible. The other one said, keep going. It's from our 2016 after the election episode. And so we're relaunching it now for these terrible times that we live in to just bring people some sort of comfort.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know what I said? I said, sally forth to Vince.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. He's like, what are we gonna do? And I'm like, sally forth.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Got to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it felt real and right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. You have to listen to Gold Gym.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's a home gym.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Good old home gym. Not everyone who handles your personal information is going to be as careful as you are. And it only takes one mistake to expose it to hackers and identity theft. Maybe that's why there's a nude victim of identity theft every five seconds in the United States. Fortunately, there's Lifelock. Lifelock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats to your identity if your identity is stolen. A LifeLock US based restoration specialist will help solve identity theft issues on your behalf, guaranteed or your money back. Plus, all LifeLock plans are backed by the million dollar protection package, meaning LifeLock will reimburse you up to the limits of your plan if you lose money due to identity theft. You can't control how diligent others are with your personal information. But with Lifelock, you can help protect it. Act now and save up to 40% your first year. Call 1-800-LIFELOCK and use promo code MURDER or go to lifelock.com murder for 40% off. Terms apply. You know, Georgia, they always tell you to touch grass to spend time in nature. But what if I told you that nature can be boxed up and delivered right to your door?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, now you can, thanks to Fast Growing Trees.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did you know Fast Growing Trees is the biggest online nursery in the US with thousands of different plants and over 2 million happy customers new to plants or gardening? No problem. The website has everything you need, plus each plant comes with clear care instructions.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Plus get support from their trained plant experts who are on call to help you plan your landscape, choose the right plants and learn how to care for them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

God, I need to learn how to care for plants. I would love to get this service and just have somebody like teaching me as I have like a beautiful tree or plant in my house, like actually do this today. This is how you don't kill it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When do I water it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What season do I trim it? I don't know and I don't want to ask my mom because then I get a lecture.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This spring they have the best deals for your yard, up to half off on select plants and other deals.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And listeners to our show get 15% off their first purchase when using the code MFM at checkout.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's an additional 15% off at fast growingtrees.com using the code MFM at checkout.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fast growingtrees.com code MFM. Now is the perfect time to plant.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Use MFM to save today. Offers valid for a limited time. Terms and conditions may apply.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Contrary to popular belief, since the birth of man, women have also existed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And yet it's so hard to find bras and shapewear that feel like a punishment.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Enter Honey Love.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Honey Love is an independent female founded brand specializing in bras, shapewear and intimates designed for real women's bodies.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because all Honey Love products are intelligently designed by women who actually wear them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They recently launched the Crossflex bra which is designed to support you all day from your workday to your workout.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Honeyloo bras are supportive and wire free thanks to bonding technology that lifts without underwire. You deserve a bra that's lightweight and comfortable without sacrificing support.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A great bra is the foundation of any great outfit. Start every outfit with Honey Love and elevate your style.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Treat yourself to the best bras and shapewear on the market.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Save 20% off Honey Love at honeylove.com.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Mfm Use our exclusive link to get 20% off honeylove.com mfm to find your perfect fit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

After you purchase, they ask you where you heard about them. Please show support for the show and tell them we sent you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Elevate your comfort. Elevate your style with Honey Love. Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, you're first.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. So my story this week, and I remember when Maren and I were talking about picking it as a story because this documentary about this story came out in 2007 and I saw it very soon after and it's the living proof of like it was a different time, even though it was only 2007. It seems recent, but the story I'm about to tell you and the way it was kind of presented at the time compared to how it probably would be presented now is pretty crazy. Yeah, there's a lot to be grateful for in terms of where we are right now, even though it's terrible and we have to keep going. Also, there's some good stuff. So let's start at the beginning. It's the morning of June 15, 1959. It's right before my first birthday. And 22 year old Linda Riss, who's a beautiful woman, a lot of people say she looks like Elizabeth Taylor. She actually just kind of has a little baby face and she's very kind of glamorous. But I'm sure Liz Taylor was like the height of beauty at the time. So they're just saying she was just an attractive Woman. So Linda's about to leave her Bronx apartment, where she lives with her mother, to head into work in Manhattan, where she works as a receptionist. But before she can do that, the doorbell rings. Linda's mother asks who's there? And from the other side of the door, a man calls out, package for Ms. Linda Riss. So that's not weird. Linda's used to getting gifts either from her doting fiance Larry, or from friends and family who are sending them gifts, because Larry and Linda just recently announced their engagement.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Got it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In fact, their engagement party had been the night before.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So the idea of, like, getting sent something to the apartment wasn't weird. But as Linda opens the front door to see what she's been sent, she only sees the delivery man for a flash. And then she feels what she thinks is boiling water having been thrown in her face.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Her mother screams in horror as Linda starts screaming in pain. Her eyes are burning. Her skin is burning. She's rushed to the hospital, where she'll learn that of course that liquid was not hot water. It was lye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right? So if you don't know, that's the chemical that used to be used in soap and cleaning products. It's very caustic in its raw form, and that means it can burn human skin. And the obsessive, delusional man behind this attack seems committed to making Linda's life a living hell. This is just the beginning of a long and twisted not love story, Kind of the opposite of a love story that's presented as a love story and was at the time. The details of which will feed the tabloid press for decades. And in the early 2000s becomes a documentary called Crazy Love. This is the story of Linda Riss and Burt Pugach.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think I've heard of this one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think you have, yeah. So the main sources used today are the 2007 documentary Crazy Love, directed by Dan Clores and Fisher Stevens, the actors.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But it's been so long.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Yeah, it was like a very early at that time, a documentary which is like, can you believe this story? And it was kind of reflective on. Can you believe what the tabloids used to be like or what these things, you know, what used to fill up our daily media?

[Georgia Hardstark]

How we were okay talking about certain things in ways that were just completely inappropriate.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, exactly. Having the media kind of present the stories. And this is what you will think of this now, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's like when they call it a crime of passion, where it's like, that's not a Fucking thing, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's not a thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, so the other sources are the book A Very different Love Story by Barry Steinbach and several articles from the New York Times archives. And the rest of our sources are in the show notes. So this story actually starts two years before this lie attack in 1957, when a very successful 30 year old negligence attorney named Burt Pugach sees 21 year old Linda Riss standing alone in a park. And Burt will later say, quote, I thought she was the most magnificent, gorgeous looking female I had ever seen.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She was so proud looking. The way she carried herself with her shoulders thrown back, her head held high. Her long dark brown hair just stirring in the breeze. Literally from the moment I saw her from 30ft away, I fell hopelessly in love with her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So he's at a zoo explaining an animal.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The female of this species, she's proud, right? She's proud with long hair.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Her fur is long.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. And luxurious. I also think it's kind of sad because you were not in love with her, right. You were attracted to her probably mostly sexually, Right. And you don't know her as a person at all.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

So he introduces himself to Linda. He wants to win her over, so he begins to send her flowers and gifts. It's a clear case of love bombing. And he's got the money to do it. He takes her out to the city's swankiest nightclubs. They rub elbows with celebrities. He takes her flying in his airplane.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's just a classic. Kind of like, I'm gonna invade your life. You're the thing I want. I'm gonna get it. Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're all in. Let's do this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. As charming as Burt seems at first, he's also emotionally volatile and manipulative. He's constantly pressuring Linda to sleep with him. She won't do it unless they're married. Then he goes on to accusing her of having sex with other men behind his back. And he is so nonstop and confrontational about this fact that Linda. This is such a, like, time and place horror show. Linda goes to her doctor to get him to confirm her virginity for Burt.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God. How old is she?

[Karen Kilgariff]

22.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's creepy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's super creepy. And it's like. So a guy in a park comes up to you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And just won't leave you alone.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And now he owns your fucking body and life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And now you're answering to him in this way because he has a plane.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or because he'll take you to cool places.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, it was the setup back then.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, that's true.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was. The whole idea is like, you get pretty enough and then you get these things.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And whatever comes along with that, you deal with it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally. Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, so Linda's still very young. This relationship is very confusing for her. Bert is dazzling her with attention and affection and all the things his wealth can afford. But he also treats her terribly at times. And then things begin to escalate to physical violence. So several months into their relationship, Linda then finds out Bert is married and has a young daughter.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. So that's when she decides she's had enough. This is not the romance that has been presented or that she wants it to be. Burt swears to her that he's in the process of ending his marriage. He even shows Linda his divorce papers as proof. She's skeptical and she will later say, quote, I never trusted Bert. I never trusted men. When Bert showed me a divorce decree, I wrote down the number and I had a lawyer check it. Not many girls would do that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Damn, girl. I feel like if you have to go that far, though, it doesn't matter if it's real or not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. And also, I'm sorry. So if you prove it is real, the love's back on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right? Like, he still lied to you about being married.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. That's the. Let's focus on the real problem.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. You don't have to have a huge excuse like the divorce papers are wrong to break up with someone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. He just like, not anymore. But back then, I think that's the vibe is like, this is your chance to get married or this is your chance to land a, you know, a lawyer. Something amazing. Yeah. So Linda does her due diligence and it pays off. She finds out Bert's divorce papers are fake.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And he himself is a lawyer. So he just asked his secretary to mock up convincing looking documents. So this is when Linda finally ends things. And not long after she does, she meets someone new. This guy named Larry. Larry is only a year older than Linda, and he doesn't have the money that Bert does. But Linda describes him as, quote, a nice, easygoing guy. He's also described as, quote, one of the most beautiful men she had ever seen.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Damn. So now she's at the fucking zoo. Yes, I'll have that koala.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's like, how about I get some of this? And then also, maybe money isn't the thing I'm really looking for here. The young couple genuinely seems happy together. But Bernd isn't ready to let Linda go. He bombards her with calls and impromptu visits, begging her to take him back. At first, she finds it sort of flattering because, I mean, like, and that is the play. We are always talking about what women did or didn't do and whether they handled it right or not or anything. And it's like you're getting the full court press by this con man, and it's your fault that you're falling for it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We've all been 22. It's like 22. Hard. It's fucking hard.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So at first, Linda finds all of it pretty flattering. But then she says, quote, it shortly becomes very stifling. Burt was relentless. He would not stop calling. He would not stop following me. It was a time of hell for me. So Linda is forced to continue to reject Burt. And then Burt begins to spiral. Soon he's threatening to take his own life. He's also saying things to people like, quote, if I can't have her, I'll see to it that nobody will. And Burt actually goes so far as to hire men to throw rocks at Linda's window, hoping that she will then turn to him for protection.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, Weird.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Of course she knows it's him. She's very freaked out by this escalating behavior. And so finally she goes to the cops. What's the chorus of this song? They don't help her, right? Linda says, quote, the police officer at the desk told me that they weren't going to do anything, quote, because he's a lawyer. So she decides to take matters into her own hands. She changes her phone number, which, telling you if it's 1960 something at this point, changing her phone number is. I bet you she had to, like, submit tons of paperwork to do that, right? Big pain in the ass. Then she finds a receptionist job one block from the nearest subway stop so she doesn't have to, like, expose herself or go all around. She even tries to file legal charges against Burt. But he retaliates by writing his own bogus claims aimed at making the Risses lives miserable. Oh, my God. He's, like, ready and willing and very able to weaponize the kind of legal system against her and in defense of himself. So now it's spring of 1959. Oh, it's 59. When she has to. They just got phones. Now she's trying to change her number.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They're like, ma'am, we don't have anymore.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's still Murray Hill 35709 or whatever.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's no other phone numbers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It only goes up to 5,000.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. So the spring of 1959, Linda and her boyfriend Larry get engaged. And as you can imagine, Burt freaks out. Linda will later say, quote, that was my undoing the minute I accepted a ring and got engaged. That's when Burt went ballistic completely. That's when he really lost it. So Bert shows up outside of Linda's house with a loaded gun, fully prepared to shoot Linda and Larry as they leave her home. But at the last minute, he changes his mind. He will later admit, quote, it's not an easy thing to kill, to shoot a person. I had to retreat. Kind of making himself sound like a victim in that situation, or this is too hard for me, where it's like, this was your idea.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So instead of doing the dirty work himself, Burt decides he's going to outsource the job. That brings us back to the morning, June 15, 1959, when the man Linda thinks is a delivery person throws lye in her face.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Who the fuck could you get to do something like that? I mean, like, this person is just a rando and is like, yep, I'll do that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'll disfigure a stranger.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And usually at the end of these stories, they disfigure a person for like, $300, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Exactly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So, of course, this horrible thing happens. Linda's rushed to the hospital. Her friend will later remember, quote, Linda just lay there unconscious with greasy medication smeared all over her eyes and face. There were massive scars all around her eyes. Her cheeks and forehead were burned terribly. So when Linda wakes up in the hospital the next morning, she can't see. She's so distraught that her friends and family are afraid that she might take her own life. And they actually install bars on the windows of the hospital room. So it was so long ago that there weren't already bars on the windows of hospital rooms. Those windows could open. Meanwhile, word of the violent attack on a young, beautiful bride to be draws the interest of tabloid reporters, which is kind of strange. It's like the lead up to, like, the national enquirer of the 80s. But, like, I feel like this. We've done versions of this, right? There's a lot of celebrity versions, whatever. But this kind of straight up a stranger. It's the Sherry Papini that I think that it died. There's a scoop.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's a scoop, and we need it. And this is, like, salacious.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. It just doesn't feel like they do this as much anymore.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it's complete.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, so Linda gives them a statement when they call, saying, quote, you read about these things, but you don't believe they could ever happen to you. Why did it happen to me? I only hope to die.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Amen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So she really gives them a quote. I mean, they're looking for salacious and they're looking for a horror show, and she gives it to them. So from there, the media interest around Linda's attack grows and grows, and her story makes headlines across New York. Meanwhile, everyone who knows Burt Pugach has the same thought. He has to be behind this attack.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Linda spends nearly three months recovering in the hospital, and she's placed under police protection after the fact. Although she regains about 80% of her vision in one eye, she's lost her other eye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

As well as all her hair. She has permanent scarring on her face. And the entire time that she's recovering in the hospital, Burt is continually sending her flowers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What the fuck?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Calling her constantly and repeatedly asking to see her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ew.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So just relentless monster. Based on the descriptions from Linda and her mother, the police know that Burt was not the one who threw the lie in her face, but they're certain he's behind it. Unlike before, when Linda asked for help and got ignored, detectives are now working very hard to see that she gets justice. And then I wrote in all caps, now that she's lost a nine. Right. Like, right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She needed it a minute before that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, also, it just is that thing of like, people not only didn't see the warning signs of like an obsessive stalker type like this. Yeah, it was romanticized. It was like kind of in the media of like, isn't this sad for this bride? We're not talking about the guy at all. Yeah, we're not saying here's a well known lawyer in. In this city. Yeah, it's just get the quote from her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So the cops just need solid evidence to secure Burt's conviction so that they can make an arrest. Right. Fortunately for the cops, Burt can't keep his mouth shut. Investigators secure a warrant to bug his law office and immediately catch him on tape, basically admitting that he orchestrated the attack on Linda. So he's finally arrested on October 30, 1959, along with the three men that he hired to help him carry out that attack. Yeah. So the Daily News reports this. Linda, brought to the station house by her policewoman guard, identified the lie thrower and then kissed every one of the detectives who had worked so hard. End quote. And then I Just wrote in all caps. I don't like that at all. No, no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Maybe I just said mwah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like a thank you, maybe, but also just gross.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's gross.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What are we doing? So as Burt's trial looms ahead of him, his wife leaves him. I might so wild. He's disparred. He's no longer a lawyer. It sounded like I said dispart, but I said disbarred is what I meant in my heart. Of course Linda hates him. So at this point, he has nothing to lose and he starts acting like it. He tries to mess with everyone involved in the trial. So he starts filing frivolous lawsuits against the judge in the case, against the DA as well as against the city of New York itself. Right before he's supposed to head into the courtroom one day, he takes the lens out of his eyeglasses and attempts to slit his wrists. But totally just superficial wounds. According to writer Barry Steinbeck, this was Burt's attempt at orchestrating a mistrial. Barry Steinbeck says, quote, he thought it would incapacitate him for several weeks, too long for the jury to be held. But it doesn't. The scheme doesn't work. His wounds are not going to hold any trial back. So In July of 1962, Burt Pugach is found guilty of soliciting the lie attack and is handed a maximum sentence of 30 years in prison. When Linda is asked for her thoughts on the sentencing, she says, quote, I didn't think it was long enough. I wanted him to rot in there. And the other men are sentenced as well. So Linda's discharged from the hospital. In the fall of 1959, she tries to start over. She moves into a brand new apartment. So she's not in the apartment where the attack happened anymore. She starts to go out in public. She wears stylish wigs. She always wears big dark sunglasses. She has an artificial eye. She basically is kind of trying to get back out there, but she has this future that she planned that's just fading away.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What happens to her fiance?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, she. This is very, very sad, but she can tell. She feels like Larry wants to get out of the engagement and that he's like. Basically feels like he has to go through with it. So she basically tells him she's like letting him out of it. So she says, I don't think it's safe for you to be in this because he's gonna do something.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And giving him an out, who knows?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Gives him an out. He takes the out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, ouch.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Terrible way to find out. That's not your true love. But how it is? And she's right. Who knows what he's gonna do once he gets outta jail? It's not gonna be for a while, but who knows? So Larry does argue at first. He promises to stay by her side, but he does eventually end the engagement. And Linda's in this spot now where it's just kind of like. So the person that I did wanna marry and then this guy that I kind of just dated and thought I was having a romance with is my nightmare. And this is just. These are my choices now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So she does start seeing a man who seems interested in her. They date for a while. He even proposes. But the man has never seen Linda without her sunglasses on. And so she's really anxious. She is objectively a gorgeous woman.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Obviously, she's been scarred and, you know, there's damage because of that attack. But this is a woman who's gorgeous enough and came up in this very sexist and very repressed time where a woman was raised to build her worth on how attracted men were to her. That was life back then. So this kind of anxiety and this kind of like, oh, I hope he still picks me, is pretty par for the course. Linda's friend suggests that she make arrangements to meet with her boyfriend purely for the reason of having him see her without the dark glasses on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So here's what Linda has to say about that plan. She says, quote, lo and behold, he came up to the office one day, and I was wearing my clear glasses. And apparently it kind of floored him. Let me put it that way. It was more than he expected. He couldn't handle it. You know, it devastated me. It hurt me, destroyed me. She also says, you have to understand, I'm now a different person. I'm walking around with shades. I'm never taking off these shades. I'm not thinking in terms of ever getting married. It's just not going to happen. I am now damaged merchandise.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Aw, honey.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So that brings us into the early 70s, and now Burt, in his mid-40s. He's doing time in Attica upstate. And he served about a decade of his sentence and, of course, has learned nothing. He continues to harass Linda.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Jesus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She says, quote, bert used to send me mail from prison. Pages and pages of letters. I used to change numbers like you would change underwear. Didn't work. It never helped. No matter what I did, there was no getting away from Bert.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. He, like, wouldn't give it up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No. And also no One's doing anything.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know. You think that he'd be like. Like he'd get a restraining order against himself.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know what I mean?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, he wouldn't be able to send those. They intercepted them at the prison.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She couldn't call her something.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was pre. All those things getting set up where it's like, so don't let the guy in jail for attacking this woman send.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Letters to this woman, continue harassing her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's put it on the blackout list.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So in 1971, as everyone knows, because Georgia covered this on this show, there's a huge prison riot at Attica. And. And during that time, somehow, Burt crosses paths with civil rights attorney William Kunstler. Kunstler is probably most famous for representing the anti Vietnam War protestors known as the Chicago 7. But he also has a deep roster of notable clients. And remember, Burt is a rich guy, an ex lawyer himself. He has been giving legal advice to his fellow inmates, and that's probably how he met Kunstler. Either way, the two develop some sort of a relationship. And so then Linda's phone rings, and she says, quote, one day, Bill Kunstler gets on the phone and tells me how much Burt loves me and he wants to get back with me and all this crap. And I said, if he's so freaking interested, then why the hell doesn't he send me some money? I'm living like a peasant. I have no money. Let him show his good faith. End quote. Okay, so Linda's in her mid-30s. She has been losing vision in her remaining eye, and because of that, she can't work anymore. So getting money from the man who violently assaulted her is appropriate and seems normal. Sure. So Kunstler reports this message back to Burt, who sees it as a win, of course, because at least Linda's actually communicating back with him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, he sees it as, like an opening.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. So in the documentary Crazy Love, Burt claims this is when he starts charging for the legal advice he's giving to his fellow inmates. And soon, he's able to send Linda around $100 a week. It's hard to tell exactly how much he sends Linda. He claims in the documentary he sends her $4,000, which is how much in today's money, and 72.

[Georgia Hardstark]

4,000, 19,000, 30,000. Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. So he's sending. He's sending her money, which to me is like kind of a good faith thing of like, yes, you took away her vision. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The court should have probably.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, yeah, okay. It should have been that. But this is prehistory. It's Caveman Times. So 14 years into his sentence in March of 1974, 47 year old Burt Pugesh has a scheduled parole hearing. And Linda knows it's coming, so she writes to the parole board, she tells them to deny his request. She says she'd like to see him die behind bars. She actually writes, quote, I want him to come out of prison in a box.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The judge grants him parole.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Bert is ordered to stay away from Linda as a condition of his release, which he follows.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Story is over, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep. In fact, though, he. It's such a big news story that he has been released from prison that although he's not allowed to contact Linda directly, he suddenly has a better way to reach her. Which is on the local news.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Through the media.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So literally a week after he's paroled, Linda is watching TV and she sees a clip of him in an interview where he turns and looks directly into the camera and says, linda, I know you're out there. Linda, I love you. Linda, I wanna marry you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And now he's free.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's awful.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And if you are the reporter for the New York Post or whatever it is, you're like, we're back on gold.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is gold.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's gold.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And we're not even gonna think about morally if we should do this or not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no, no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because we have to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it's been going on at this point for like 20 years.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. This story is giving so much.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So Linda's 35 years old at this point. It's 1974. Then in terms of single lady years, she's about 55.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In a statement in the documentary Crazy Love, a friend will simply describe Linda as having, quote, no one on the horizon. So big concern for everybody at the time. Some of Linda's own friends, including the policewoman who met Linda while protecting her from Burt before he was convicted, begin to encourage Linda to reach out to Burt.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. So it's like they're saying, but he loves you so much.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. What else have you got?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Kind of.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. I mean, the. He's better than being alone somehow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Get a dog.

[Karen Kilgariff]

God forbid you be an old maid. You could have this guy. Yeah, you could have this guy. So. And also she's. If she has friends and family saying that to her. And then she's also the one going through this deal with however she feels about her appearance and the change of it. So about three months after Bird is released from prison, that same policewoman arranges a meeting between Burt And Linda, honey, at first, it's awkward, but Linda also finds it at first disarming and then kind of comforting. Cause she says, quote, in jail, they made a new man out of Bert. He was muscular. He looked good. I wore my clear glasses. And this is the. This hurts me deeply. Sorry. I'm still in this quote. But I wore my clear glasses. I don't think I could have revealed myself with clear glasses to anyone else. He saw no difference. To him, I was still beautiful.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The psychological trauma alone is just so clear based on that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And the damage that would be done to feeling like you might be in love with a person. Then you're like, oh, but I have this thing. And take your sunglasses off. And that person's like, bye. Which is also just what everyone goes through in relationships. At some point, you have some sort of.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. Symbolic sunglasses that you end up taking off. And people are like, no way. Or.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or they're like, okay, but you're so damaged that you're like, but I don't believe you. And so I refuse to. I. I refuse to allow it, because I just won't believe it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And this guy who has harmed her irreparably has gotten her to that point where it's like, well, then it'll just be me. I'll be the only one broke her. Broke her in, like, worked this system to his advantage in the most horrifying way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So Linda's convinced to give Bert a chance. And eight months after he walks out of prison for attacking her with lie, Linda accepts Burt's proposal and they get married.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. The New York Daily News runs the front.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow. They lost their mind. Over at the media.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The New York Daily News runs the front page headline, quote, woman weds man who blinded her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Jesus. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Many years later, the New York Times reports on the many factors that lead to Linda's decision to marry her abuser, noting. This is the list of the factors. Quote, a Christian sense of forgiveness. The advice of a fortune teller, the fear that another woman would scoop up Mr. Pugach. But mostly, she cited her need to move forward. And then there's a quote from Linda saying, if you're gonna remain bitter and obsessed, it will destroy you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. But you still don't need to. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Tough.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Misguided.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That last line, of course, echoes Bert's own crazy obsession. But in his case, it seems to have gotten him exactly what he wanted.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it worked.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So the surprise is that Bert and Linda stay married for decades.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Jesus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They settle into a strange, sometimes combative but apparently functional partnership. But instead of retreating to their own private life, they become media darlings. The couple does the round on talk shows. They sit for newspaper profiles. They lean into the tabloid coverage that so often frames their relationship as a quirky, twisted love story instead of just a one long, strange cycle of abuse. Burt eventually starts working as a paralegal. And he even brags after their wedding, quote, my incub doubled the first week. Doubled, Maybe tripled.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Gross.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Super gross. So Burt knows how to stay in the headlines. More than two decades after marrying Linda in 1997, he's arrested again. This time for harassment. You heard that right. While Linda is recovering from heart surgery, Burt meets a woman and begins a five year affair with her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So this woman accuses Burt of threatening her life. Even telling her he'd, quote, blind her like Linda, oh my God, if she ever refuses to see him. So when this story comes out in response, Burt insists he was never going to actually hurt her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I was just threatening this woman. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Even though your record is one to know of actually threatening to hurting. Meanwhile, Linda is of course furious, but stands by him. She tells reporters, quote, for all intents and purposes, he's been a good husband. He sucks right now. Are you crying? No, I'm just so disturbed. I know. It's. It's horrible. Yeah, it's horrible and so sad. It's so like one hallway going one direction. You have to get to the end, which is marriage anyway.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Possible.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You have to. How do we. Do you think that women of today have fully incorporated this lesson? That alone is better than this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think a larger percentage of women now, Much larger. Double, triple. Probably understand that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, but it seems recent.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, that idea, it can't be. There can't be that many.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I guess. You and I will talk later. We'll talk after. Okay. So Bert gets arrested and has to go to trial for threatening this woman. Linda acts as a character witness at that trial.

[Georgia Hardstark]

How are you gonna do that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you know she's gonna walk in in her sunglasses?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, he hasn't done that much bad stuff since he threw fucking lie in my face.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, here's. It's a little. It's not as legit as it might sound because Burt is his own lawyer in this trial. So he's ultimately convicted of second degree harassment. None of their plan works. He beats the stronger charges. So I guess that he only serves 15 days in jail for threatening this woman. From here, life presses on for the two. In 2007, when Burt is around 80 years old. And Linda's around 70 years old. They become the subject of the documentary Crazy Love. And director Dan Cloris tells the New York Times that Burt's possessiveness was still on full display during the filming. For example, Burt could not follow the very simple orders to stay away from Linda during the shooting. Clores says, quote, she didn't want him there. She wanted to talk. I told Bert not to come back for seven hours every hour. His key would be in the lock and I would tell him to go away. Just like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Won't drop.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Won't yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's no controlling. Yes. The film's release prompts another wave of coverage on the couple, which results in a very telling line from the Guardian reporter Marianne McDonald, who writes, quote, having spoken to Burt on the phone, I have taken an intense dislike to him already. Creepy man. So in 2013, when Linda Riss is 75 years old, she dies of heart failure. Through sobs, Burt tells the Associated Press. That's it for me right there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Associated Press.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Through sobs, Burt tells the Associated Press. So did you just write on the phone with the apartment, he tells them, quote, this was a very fairy tale romance.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I am sorry. I mean, I guess in like, fuck old school fairy tales. Yeah, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

For Grimm's 1600s German.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Where children get eaten. Eaten and cooked and everyone's parents dies. Yes, sir.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hardcore fairy tale.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So over the years, Burt Pugach has expressed remorse for what he put Linda through. Even establishing a foundation in her honor for the visually impaired.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He caused it. That's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, he caused.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You can't. It doesn't work that way. It doesn't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It certainly doesn't. Okay. He promised to leave that foundation 15. His $15 million estate. But instead, when Burt dies on Christmas Eve in 2020 at the age of 93, every penny goes to. Who would you. Who would you think?

[Georgia Hardstark]

The girlfriend who took him to court.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A brand new one. A caregiver claiming to have been romantically involved with him in his final years.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck. I mean, she got hers. Then how did he get $15 million?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, maybe it was his from before being a lawyer and he had some stashed away. He said his pay went up times three. I'm sure they sold stories. I'm sure they got paid to be in places. I don't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

As of a 2021 reporting, Burt's estate is the subject of a lawsuit alleging that he had been coerced into changing his will. Ahead of. Unclear where that investigation stands today, but it's just one more bizarre twist in a saga that, despite so much coverage framing it this way, hardly feels like it can be called a love story. In fact, back in the late 70s, when Linda Riss was asked by a reporter if she ever loved Burt, her answer seemed pointedly elusive. She said, quote, I don't even like the word. It's so hard to define. And that's the story of the crazy love of Linda Riss and Bert Pugach.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I want to see a picture.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. That's devastating.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Insane.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, man. Oh, she was so beautiful. Wow. That makes me sick.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God. Well, great job.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you. As the weather starts to get warmer and we can finally go places again, it's time to face a hard truth. Your travel wardrobe is not ready.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You can't bring bad fashion on your vacation. They won't let you out of the airport.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fortunately, we all have quints. They have high quality travel essentials at fair prices.

[Georgia Hardstark]

With Quince, you can get quality luxury essentials without a hefty price tag, like lightweight European linen styles from $30, washable silk tops and comfy lounge sets.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And quints also has premium luggage options and stylish tote bags to carry it all.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Everything is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Because Quince works directly with top factories, they cut out the middleman and pass the savings on to you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Georgia, I don't want to brag or anything, but I just got a box of three brand new quint sweaters because I wear my 50 Mongolian cashmere sweaters that I got years ago so much that I was finally like, I need to freshen this up a little bit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

For your next trip, treat yourself to the luxe upgrades you deserve from quints.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Go to Quince.com MFM for free shipping on your order and 365 day return.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com MFM to get free shipping and 365 day returns.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Quince.com MFM Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There are probably a billion furniture options out there. We didn't count, but that number feels right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So how do you find the perfect piece?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Easy. You go to article.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Article believes in delightful design for every home. And thanks to their online only model, they have some really delightful prices too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Article makes furniture shopping a breeze with its carefully selected styles from mid century modern to boho and everything in between.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Check out their Nira dresser. It's beautiful and practical, which is a deadly combination.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know we're hard stands of article on this podcast. Everyone knows that we're like BFFs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean we couldn't rave more.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it's because everything is so classy, so beautifully made, affordable and so user friendly. Like you don't have to have style to like get stylish stuff from article. They do it for you. So like there's no worry there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Look at that near a dresser on their website. Just go and take a look at that one piece and you will see what we are talking about. It is as mid century as you could get.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Seriously. Article is offering our listeners 50 off your first purchase of a hundred dollars or more.

[Karen Kilgariff]

To claim visit article.com murder and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's a R-T-I C L-E.com murder to get 50 off your first purchase of a hundred dollars or more.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye. Mother's Day is coming up and your mom deserves more than a card that says World's best Mom for the eighth year running.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Give her something personal this year, like an aura frame filled with all her favorite memories.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Aura frames allow users to curate and share their photos and memories with loved ones, making it a personal and meaningful gift.

[Georgia Hardstark]

These frames have been featured in 495 gift guides in 2024 alone and they're ranked the number one digital picture frame by wirecutter. And here is why. They're incredibly easy to set up, update and enjoy. So I got my sister an aura frame who's a mom. She loves it, it's on her mantel and I go over there and there's new photos. There's photos of me with my nephews in it and it's so touching because that means they see me every day even though I don't see them as much as I want to. I know I'm part of the family, but I'm like part of their daily life in that way. Just by my photo coming up every now and then which is like really sweet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's beautiful.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or has a great deal for Mother's Day.

[Georgia Hardstark]

For a limited time, listeners can save on the perfect perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get 35 off plus free shipping on their best selling Carver Matte frame.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's a U R A frames.com promo code MFM. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, now it's your turn.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Now it's my turn and we're gonna take a turn.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not right away. This is about a not well known war that took place in Western Australia in the 1930s.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, it's so not well known that. We got one email from a listener about it in the Gmail. That's it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But I think it's gonna be your new favorite war.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cause I know you have so many.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean. Yeah, it's gonna be tough. I'd say my first favorite war is Mashed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. So I'm gonna. I'm gonna start cold and I'll tell you what it's called.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In a moment.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. I'll wait.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Please wait.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Please hold. So we're in the aftermath of World War I. Thousands of veterans who are nicknamed soldier settlers moved to Western Australia. And it's a vast area with a huge array of climates. There's tropical coast up north, desert in the interior, a Mediterranean climate similar to parts of California on the southwestern coasts. It's a fucking beautiful place. We should all move to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We should.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't you think?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Remember we did, like a tour which was kind of southeastern?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. We didn't go to Perth.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We didn't go to Perth. Dang. Next time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So the Australian government has bought thousands of tracts of land to sell to the soldiers at discounted prices in an effort to reward the men for their service with farmland to develop and profit from. So they're trying to, you know, expand, give back. Yeah. There are more than 5,000 soldiers who buy land under the scheme. And the problem is that the amount of land with good soil for farming in Western Australia is kind of low. So many of these soldiers are stuck out on tracks with low quality soil and a host of other issues that haven't really been thought through. In the end, most of these soldiers wind up raising sheep and planting wheat, which is what's most suited to the climate. And in the 1920s, there's actually a string of really good years. The wheat grows well, the farmers are insulated a bit from bad years by selling wool from the sheep, and everyone is making money. Everything's fine. Then in 1929, your favorite great Depression happens. The Great Depression.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The greatest.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The greatest depression.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I was falling asleep last night. To the World According to Kunk by Philomena Kunk.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Of course. So funny.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's truly one of the best books ever written, period.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, I thought you were talking about the TV show. You're listening to the book.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, the audiobook I was listening to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, okay, Got it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

At first, when the Great Depression starts, the price of wheat stays pretty stable. Other prices for goods tank in Australia. So the government pushes a big initiative to get Farmers to produce more wheat because it's selling. Hey, great. Let's just do it. The slogan they come up with for the farmers to grow more wheat. Wheat is. You want to guess?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hey, it's wheat time, guys.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nope, It's. It's more complicated. It's just grow more wheat.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Damn it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Should have had you on their creative team.

[Karen Kilgariff]

God damn it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The Australian Prime Minister promises the farmers that the government will buy the wheat at a good price. Australian farmers enthusiastically take him up on this offer, vastly expanding their wheat production. Right. By the. But by the early 1930s, there's a new prime minister. That always fucking happens. You never plan for that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Every time. Right. Happens.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's Joseph Lyons. And the global price of wheat tanks. Tanks for nothing. The government.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You acted like you were reading off the page. Good one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The government, which already is facing a massive deficit, actually goes back on the previous prime minister's promise because they can do that. So the situation is already fairly bleak at this point. By October of 1932, that's where we are when that year's wheat harvest is supposed to start. Farmers in the town. I'm gonna get these wrong Australians. I'm real sorry. Farmers near the towns of Campion and Walgoolin. That sounds right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Report an issue. So this area is one of the drier parts of the state, and it wasn't as well suited to farming already. Right before the farmers are meant to start harvesting their wheat on this land, a plague overtakes the farms and wreaks havoc on the crops. They trample, they devour. They're more than a nuisance. They're a downright pestilence of epic proportions. This is the story of the Great Emu War.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, what emu? All of a sudden, these poor soldier farmers. Gentlemen farmers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's already not going great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're just trying to make the best of it and. And suddenly they talk their wife into coming.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's gonna be great. We're gonna be farmers. We're gonna own land.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's okay. You're afraid of birds. That's fine. There's hardly any birds out here.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, no, no, it's totally fine. It's Australia. What could go wrong? I mean, wild animal wise nuts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Snakes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Snakes. Crocs, allocates. And big. Shout out to my researcher, Ali Elkin for even coming up with this story because.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I saw it and responded in all caps. Cause I was so excited, you know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So let me tell you a little bit about emus, since I don't know how familiar you are with them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I could be thinking of kiwi, which is the small bird.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's not a kiwi. This is the large one that looks kind of like a ostrich. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Okay, so emus are actually native to Australia. And I wrote, like, Charlize Theron. Wait, that's not right. Is she.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I think she's South African. Shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know who I meant. I met Nicole Kidman.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Barbie. I met Barbie.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Margot Robbie.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Margot Robbie's. Fuck, man. I can't even get that. Don't believe a word I say.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You had so many choices.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I did. Just blonde, beautiful actresses. And I picked the wrong fucking one. They're the world's second or third largest bird. I couldn't tell based on searching. Right. They're right after ostriches. So ostriches are bigger than them. Then there's emus. Emus are considered one of the closest living relatives to dinosaurs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Particularly to raptors.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, man.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. They're the only species of bird that has calf muscles.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's so creepy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Isn't that creepy?

[Karen Kilgariff]

And little, like, Fighting Irish tattoos on those calf muscles. Even worse.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And they can jump 7ft high. They can sprint for short distances of 40 miles per hour. That's fast. That is fast. That's, like, on the freeway here. And that's actually about the speed of an average racehorse, too. So. They're fucking fast little sharks.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're fast, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Emus have a pouch in their throat that they use to make deep booming and grunting sounds for communications that are loud.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Me, too. You know, I was gonna say that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is you, too. Particularly during breeding season.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hey.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then here is where. Note to Georgia. Ali put a video of an emu running to see how fast it could go. And then I got into a fucking rabbit hole of emu videos.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How'd it go?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I wrote zoomies. Because emus get zoomies. Emus playing fetch with a little girl, dog and baby. There's a one with a dog and a baby emu playing. They're fucking adorable.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, so is this, like, people now have emu farms? Like they're raising them like ostriches?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. Okay, so, yeah, so I went down this rabbit hole. I saw them run. It totally looked like the beginning of Jurassic park with all these long necks. Just like. They're really fun. And I want one now. And you're.

[Karen Kilgariff]

As I was gonna say. And you're like, but, Vince, come on, just one more.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Come on, we gotta save the emus. And actually, some emus can be gentle and affectionate if they're raised that way from a young age. But others can be aggressive and moody, especially if they're not socialized property. Ditto. And they may react angrily to being touched or handled.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hey, say what's up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So they have tiny wings, so they're flightless. But they're known to migrate very long distances in search of food and water. In the past, emus typically moved through this area that we're in toward the coast without staying long before. But there's been a drought in 1932 and the creation of this new farmland has both cleared areas of vegetation and obstacles and has established new water sources for livestock and irrigation. And it's the perfect place for emus. So in this area in this time period, guess how many migratory emus visit this area at once?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm gonna go ahead and say you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don'T have to guess if you don't want to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, look, I don't want to guess, but I have to guess.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I really want to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

One emu standing here, how many do you think fucking showed up for the great emu war? 520,000.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What?

[Georgia Hardstark]

20 fucking thousand emus?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Onto this, like, smallish area of.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cause also they're eating that wheat.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They're eating the wheat? Yep. They're drinking all the irrigated water. They're like stomping. They're trampling. They're like wreaking havoc.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Partying.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They're fucking partying.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is their kind of. What do you call it? Burning man. It's a 1932 early Burning man, totally emu style.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hey, you, meet me on the playa.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hey, man, be yourself.

[Georgia Hardstark]

To put that number in perspective, Ally let me know. That 20,000 EMUs would fill your typical arena where an NBA team would play. It's the exact capacity of the crypto.com arena. So imagine playing basketball and then you look up into the crowd and it's fucking just wall to wall emus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And they're like doing weird shit like they're going to come down, right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They're like getting ready to. And they're dinosaurs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're dinosaurs. Same amount of feathers as ostriches?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think so. Yeah. Yeah, they're similar to ostriches.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You would think it was an ostrich.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, you would. Yeah. You'd get it wrong and you wouldn't be stupid for it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's what we keep telling ourselves, Right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

And to make matters worse, high tariffs imposed in the post war and depression era have made wire Netting prohibitively expensive. So they can't afford to fence out the emus. That's not a choice.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So it's literally a perfect story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It is. So the farmers who are all vets, remember they're all veterans to World War I, they do the level headed thing and they write to the Minister of defense asking to be supplied with machine guns to kill the emus as you do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, the problem is, and I think we've talked about this a lot of like, it's sheer numbers where it's like if it was 500 emus, they would be a little more reasonable, 20,000 of these birds.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then so maybe because the government has jerked these farmers around so many times with the price of wheat already, they kind of know they're in trouble with these farmers already. They want to appear like they're helping them. So the minister says yes to the gun request. But since the government of Australia has smart brains that think in a normal way, machine guns are tightly regulated there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can you imagine?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, what a world to live in the 30s just because the farmer soldiers asked for machine guns. Why can't they just have regular guns?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. They wanted machine guns. I know, it sounds more fun, probably. They're probably bored out of their fucking minds at this point.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And they're enraged.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Enraged. So instead, three specially trained soldiers are sent from Perth to the region to operate the machine guns.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Everyone doesn't get a machine gun.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

These three guys get a machine gun.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Will send machine guns to you with.

[Georgia Hardstark]

People who can operate them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Good plan.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it's not just like a little machine gun that you can hold and operate and move around with. It's a huge tube that needs to be propped up. It has a wheel of bullets. It's like, you know, a World War I type gun. Yeah. The rest of the farmers are allowed to help shoot at the emus, but they have to use boring old regular rifles.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So the farmers also agree to house the three military specialists and to pay for the ammunition for the gun.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So not the greatest deal, plan or deal for them. Yeah, but you do have to do that thing where like after a while you're like, sure, but you did agree to do this huge crazy thing. Yes, that's true.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But under what pretenses? Like were they lies?

[Karen Kilgariff]

True. Where it's like, oh, you can farm this beautiful area, but it's Australia. So it's like it's all snakes and spiders. Yeah, they can't. The expectation couldn't have been.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And no emus Easy breeze. Yeah. There was no. No emu clause.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No emu clause. We guarantee no large bird will come at you on mass.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Legit dinosaur.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Hordes of them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Okay. So the army specialists are overseen by a man named Major Gwynedd Purvis. Win Aubrey Meredith is his name.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Are his six first names.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cool.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And so he. They are overseeing it, and then a cinematographer also joins the group to film the anti emu offensive.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which is great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Presumably because people in the Australian government believed it would be successful. They're like, let's send a cameraman out there. And this will be great propaganda for, like, what we do for our farmers. The soldiers arrive on November 2, 1932, and the war begins. On the first day they arrive, a flock of 50 emus is spotted at one of the farms. So they set up their guns on some nearby high ground. The guns jam almost immediately and the emus scatter.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ooh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The next day, the soldiers have a bit more success when they set up ambushes around water sources, but immediately proves to be very slow going. Between the rifles and the machine guns, the soldiers are able to pick off about out of 20,000 EMUs in one day. They pick off about 12 EMUs max before the rest of the flock has scurried out of range.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So in a day's work, that's 12 EMUs out of 20,000. And that's a good day, it turns out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The farmers in the military have woefully underestimated their adversaries. I told you about how fast they are and I told you about how they have calf muscles. So they're like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So they're cool.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Kind of hot.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The soldiers that were sent to the farms, they start getting nervous. They've been instructed by one of their commanding officers to bring back at least 100 emu skins, because emu feathers are used to decorate the ceremonial helmets for a particular military unit in Australia. So this commanding officer was like, hey, this is a great way to get a bunch of fucking emus. But it's becoming increasingly apparent that killing any emus, let alone a hundred, to bring back is not going to be easy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because the emus have now started to appoint their own officers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Who act as scouts for the rest of the flock.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They're fucking smart.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They went back to headquarters and they said, sorry, those guys on the hill do not want what's best for us. No, something's going down.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. One emu war correspondent wrote at the time, Quote, the emus have proved that they are not so stupid as they are usually considered to be because they do run around like fucking idiots. Like, they do run around.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They look goofy like turkeys, but it doesn't mean they're dumb.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, he says. Each mob has its leader. Always an enormous black plumed bird standing fully six feet high who keeps watch while his fellows busy themselves with the wheat. At the first suspicious sign, he gives a signal and dozens of heads stretch up out of the crop. Dinosaurs. A few birds will take fright, starting a headlong stampede into the scrub. The leader always remaining until his followers have reached safety. Wow. End quote.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So fucking Papa bear is like, hey, guys, here they are also scatter.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We've survived for hundreds of millions of years, so we got this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, we're fucking dinosaurs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No one panic.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Remember those cavemen from back then? Remember?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like real recently, they barely made it. It's those guys. These are cousins of those guys and.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They think they're going to kill us. After the first week of the emu war, it is reported that the group have used 2500 rounds of ammunition to kill just 300 EMUs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And that's a generous estimate that comes from one of the military specialists. And you know, they raise those numbers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Absolutely.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So I'm gonna read you this quote. The one person who wrote to our Gmail about like, you guys should cover this story, it's really crazy, is someone named Zagreb. She, her and Zagridi included a quote from someone named John P. Rafferty that came from the Wikipedia. So here is that quote that Zagretti included.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Quote. The machine gunner's dream of point blank fire into serried masses of Emus were soon dissipated. The EMU command had evidently ordered guerrilla tactics and its unwieldy army soon split up into innumerable small units that made use of the military equipment uneconomic. Meaning, like you're wasting your fucking bullets.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Meanwhile in Parliament, prime minister Joseph Lyons, remember him, is now facing questions about the expense of the emu war. One of the members of Parliament from Sydney asked sarcastically if any of the parties involved in the emu war should be receiving a medal.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Harsh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And someone says if anyone should be getting a medal, it should be the emus. Sounds like a fun parliament.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's true.

[Georgia Hardstark]

After two weeks, the emus seem to have learned the range of the machine guns they fucking. You can't hit me this far. You can't get me. I'm out of your range.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like when you can't leave the Part of the couch that you have won.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And so then your sister just walked just out of range of like, well, then I'll go get myself, like, a cookie and you can't have one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Exactly. They set up shop in the wheat fields just out of that range and move every time. The soldiers reposition themselves, scatter when the farmers get close with the rifles. All this scattering and running is also causing the emus to trample more wheat than they would have if you had never started this emo war. After the most successful day of the war, where maybe two dozen EMUs are killed, RIP, one of the military specialists examines one of the dead emus and finds that it is. It has five bullets in its body, some of which are clearly old wounds from the beginning of the campaign.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which means that the emus are staying alive and running at close to full speed, even after being shot multiple times. Like they're fucking terminators.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. They're like, oh, no, we're going to win this. Yeah. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Isn't that creepy? Like sending a message. With his body, it's looking more and more like the EMAs will win the war. Until suddenly, on December 2, the war is called off. I think they're like, let's cut our fucking losses.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. This is insanity.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The soldiers claim to have killed between 1,000 and 2,000 EMUs out of roughly 20,000 that were in the combat zone. And the emus seem to become a part of life for the farmers at this point, having bested the soldiers. Still, in future years, the soldiers, settlers will continue to request machine guns to fight off the fucking emus. Cause I bet they're reproducing. But the Australian Ministry of Defense will turn them down every. Instead, the soldier settlers are supplied with additional rifles. And eventually they become more successful at fending off the emus on their own.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Picking them off one at a time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Between the 1940s and 1960s, the farmers kill more than 200,000 of them under a bounty system.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that's a lot.

[Georgia Hardstark]

PETA doesn't like that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, that's bad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, they're so cute. Little babies are. They're so cute.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, can't it be like, you just get rid of enough so that your stuff isn't at risk?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It always has to be this, like, now they've killed 200,000 and now they're in danger.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, exactly. Okay, so then later, eventually, the price of fencing comes down, and this becomes a much more practical way to deal with emus than fucking killing hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of them. Then, in 1999, EMUs become a protected species in Australia.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And there are about 600,000 of them living in Australia today, which is considered a strong population. So good. They're back, baby.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Good, good, good. All riddled with bullets and old wounds.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah. Grandpa's telling the stories about how he survived the emu war.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They thought they got me with this one. I just kept running.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Major Meredith, remember him with a really long name. He goes on to have a storied military career, having already served in World War I. He also serves in World War II and in the Korean War with distinction. But I bet that emu war stuck in his craw.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's the one that got.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You think that's the one he fucking couldn't win.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And that is the story of the great emu war.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's totally insane. I don't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Why is he victorious?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Here's a farmer with an emo. Dead emu. Oh, it's pretty sad.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's all mad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's a big bird, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. That is a big old bird.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know, he's. Crikey.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's saying, my calves, please. My calves.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow. All right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you. Thank you, Allie, for finding that in the depths of the Internet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nice one, Allie. I really didn't understand what we were doing at the beginning, but it was fun.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What do you think was gonna happen?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know. But I'm really happy to hear the idea that here's how we're gonna use sheer brute force to solve a problem. And then that problem solves. Like, you're not going to, though.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That doesn't work that way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's always, I think, a better. You know, it's good. It helps people evolve better ideas.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. You got to learn how to live in harmony with nature.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, you can get.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You get your ass kicked if not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or how about somebody figures out cheap barbed wire, you fools. You could have saved yourself so much time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, so let's do rays, and then we're also going to do our own fucking hoorays. Which I love because it makes me think throughout my week, like, what's going well and what's going on? You know what I mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. I think that was one of the ideas when we originally thought of this, was kind of like focusing on the positive and gratitude and stuff like that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Pay attention to the good things.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So mine is that I finally bought and put together my very self put together One of those bird feeders that have a camera and an app on it that you can see who's eating your bird feed. So far, it's a squirrel and an adorable mouse. And that's it. So it's not going great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, it's kind of your urban version where you need to get the. You need to get the birds there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But the squirrel's like. He's like, angry. It's been really fun watching him try to figure out how to get to it. And he did.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or she did and they finally made it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Like, it'd be like, hey, you have an animal and be like climbing the tree near it, clearly trying to like, jump somehow. It's like, it's charming, but there's a whole adventure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, we got my dad that for Christmas.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We used to have. No one's put it up. We're like, well, he's not gonna put it. And Laura not could put it up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's kind of hard.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I guess we have to task rabbit it somehow, but.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, I can do it now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, great. If you wouldn't mind driving up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not at all. What's yours?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I want to do a fucking hurry. That is as superficial as possible. The thing that's been really getting me through like the last month is just like a timed. Like a timed and planned morning latte.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Where it's like this little special kickoff treat.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That then. I don't know why. Just that thing where it's like, instead of like waking up and just being like, soldier through it. Like, get. Get these things done or start whatever. It's like. No, no, no. It's like it's latte time. It's a little like I'm still laying in bed and then I get it. I order it and I pick it up. And then it's just my little thing that gets me from like this block of time to that block of time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That is so hugely important in your day to day life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think I'm very inspired by the. The millennials and the gen zers who are always about like, get yourself a little treat.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're real big into that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Because they're like, hey, guess what? If I don't do this, I'm still not gonna be able to afford a house. So I'm gonna fucking do it and have a daily fucking moment of joy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Get aggro about finding your little things of joy so you can go from little piece of joy to a little piece of joy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's very important.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's Very natural. Nice approach.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, now we're gonna read yours. You guys can comment them anywhere you want on Instagram, on all the places.

[Karen Kilgariff]

LinkedIn.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, get over there.net. biz. YouTube. We have YouTubes up now. And you can comment your hoorays there. So here are yours. You want me to go first?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, this one. Fucking yay for fucking hooray.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's from our email. Hi, ladies and everyone at exactly right. Today I accepted my dream job as an elementary school librarian.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I remember mine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So important.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I have worked and I cannot wait to help kids see themselves in the books they read. Especially now when reading and books are under attack by our government. Ssdgm. And always remember to fight for libraries and for public education. Manny, he him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you, Manny.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Great job, Manny.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're so right. Now that libraries and books are under attack from our government is a true statement being made on this podcast in 2025.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Manny is sallying forth.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Manny is kicking ass. Thank you. And thank you to all librarians.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Definitely. Okay, you go.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, well, this one is. It says, my fucking hooray is fast food chili. Question mark, question mark. This was sent into the my favorite murder Gmail, it says. Yep, it sure is. After avoiding Wendy's chili my entire life due to the notion of errant floating thumbs in it, I was finally brave enough to order it. After listening Karen's recent deep dive. I'm happy to report that the chili is pretty damn decent.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And honestly, in this upside down world, having one more decent option for lunch is in fact a fucking hooray. I mean, right? And then it says, so thanks, Karen. I also told my boyfriend he should start eating walnuts before drinking his coffee because I heard on a podcast that it's good for your esophagus and heartburn. He looked at me quizzically and said, but you only listen to murder podcasts. Yeah, I replied. Yep, that's where I heard about it. So I guess TBD on whether or not he takes the advice. Thanks, crew, for all you do, Lindsay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Aw, Lindsay, thanks.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Lindsay's just turning it all around.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love it. Chilly. My last one's from Instagram. My hashtag fucking array is that on Sunday, I completed mfm. That's my first marathon.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hey.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was hashtag fucking hard, but I finished in 3 hours, 40 minutes and raise 1.5k for a local cat rescue at Pad Paws Animal Rescue, who specialize in senior sick and hard to adopt cats. I also volunteer and foster for them. They rock. I conquered a bout of flu and a dog attack during my training. Jesus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I'm pretty fucking pleased with myself. MFM kept me going through many long runs. Love the pod. Now to ice my old me's at. And it's Sophia with a ton of S's in the beginning and a ton of as at the end.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sophia.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Pad Paws, Animal Rescue, Everyone go follow them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's a great one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow. Sophia's getting it all done.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, same with this person. This is also from the email and the subject line of it is, wanna be on stage with Bernie Sanders. And then it says, last week I got this text from my friend and union president. And then in parentheses it says, I'm her vp asking me if I wanna be on stage at the Fighting Oligarchy tour stop in Folsom the next day.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The answer was obviously yes. And that's how I ended up in the VIP section directly behind AOC and Bernie, representing my local and state teachers union. The event was huge. We could see the constant stream of people coming in the whole time. It was surreal and it filled me with such hope in this very dark time. My face made it on national news today. And then in parentheses, it says, look for me in the pink sunglasses.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cute.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then it says, it blows my mind that my co workers and I were part of history that night. Good will prevail if we stand together. When we fight, we win. Rachel.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Amazing Rachel.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hell yes, Rachel. Great job, great work and thank you. Teachers and teachers unions fighting for education for their children.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not just for their children, for everyone's children. Even the people who are fighting against them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep, all of those children still get fought for because we gotta do this and stand up against straight up fucking fascism in America in 2025.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Amen and thank you guys for listening. We appreciate you being here, staying strong.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're locking arms together. Audio wise, spiritually, emotionally, stay sexy and don't get murdered.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye, Elvis. Do you want a cook?

[Karen Kilgariff]

This has been an Exactly Right production.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Our senior producers are Alejandra Keck and Molly Smith.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This episode was mixed by Liana Squillace.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our Researchers are Maren McGlashan and Ali Elkin.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Email your hometowns to my favorite murdermail.com.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Follow the show on Instagram at My favorite murder.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Listen to My favorite murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And now you can watch us on exactly right's YouTube page while you're there. Please like and subscribe. Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hi, I'm Sam Mullins and I've got a new podcast coming out called goboy, the gritty true story of how one man fought his way out of some of the darkest places imaginable. Roger Caron was 16 when first convicted.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Has spent 24 of those years in jail. But when Roger Karan picked up a pen and paper, he went from an.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ex con to a literary darling from Campside Media and iHeart Podcasts. Listen to GoBoy on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In 2020, a group of young women found themselves in an AI fueled nightmare. Someone was posting photos.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was just me naked.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, not me, but.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But me with someone else's body parts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is Levittown, a new podcast from iHeart podcasts Bloomberg and Kaleidoscope about the rise of deepfake pornography and the battle to stop it. Listen to Levittown on Bloomberg's Big Take podcast. Find it on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. In Mississippi, Yazoo clay keeps secrets.

[Georgia Hardstark]

7000B bodies out there or more.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A forgotten asylum cemetery.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was my family's mystery.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Shame, guilt, propriety. Something keeps it all buried deep until it's not. I'm Larison Campbell and this is under Yazoo Clay. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.