478 - Briefcase Challenge

Summary

Episode 478: Briefcase Challenge

Release Date: May 1, 2025
Podcast: My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Hosts: Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Network: Exactly Right and iHeartPodcasts

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Introduction: Celebrating 9+ Years of MFM

The episode kicks off with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark reflecting on the longevity of their podcast, celebrating over nine years of delivering true crime tales infused with their signature humor. They nostalgically discuss the evolution of their podcasting journey, highlighting how "most people only last seven years," to which Georgia quips, “[...], we have to do it in a businesslike manner” (00:45).

The Briefcase Challenge: A New Initiative

Georgia introduces the "Briefcase Challenge," proposing that both hosts bring in briefcases they've started using at work for the next episode. Karen humorously entertains the idea, reminiscing about her childhood memories of her father's briefcase at Century 21, which contained paperwork and candy bars (01:15). The challenge serves as a metaphor for adulthood and professionalism, with Georgia affirming, “For some reason, that is what adulthood means” (02:58).

Highlighting Recent True Crime Stories

The discussion swiftly transitions to recent true crime updates:

• Valerie the Dachshund: Karen reminisces about Valerie, a dachshund lost on Kangaroo Island, Australia, highlighting her adventurous spirit and survival instincts after being found thriving and cared for by island animals (04:44).
• Corrections Corner: The hosts engage in a humorous yet informative segment addressing pronunciation and factual corrections, such as the proper pronunciation of "emu" for Australian listeners (05:59).

Deep Dive: The Teacup Poisoner

One of the episode's focal points is the chilling case of Graham Frederick Young, dubbed the “Teacup Killer.” The story unfolds with Graham's early life challenges, including a tumultuous relationship with his stepmother Molly and a disturbing fascination with chemistry and poisoning.

• Early Signs and Suspicious Behavior: From a young age, Graham exhibits troubling behavior—conducting poison experiments on animals and classmates. At 13, he acquires toxic chemicals like arsenic by deceiving local chemists about his age and intentions (19:33).

• Murders and Mental Health: Graham's systematic poisoning leads to the deaths of his supervisor Bob Eagle, his sister, and ultimately his stepmother Molly. Despite clear signs, his father fails to report the suspicious illnesses, allowing Graham to continue his deadly experiments (24:00).

• Capture and Incarceration: Graham is eventually apprehended after multiple deaths and is sentenced to Broadmoor Hospital. However, his release after nine years leads to further poisonings at the John Hadlan company, cementing his legacy as a cunning and manipulative serial poisoner (29:03).

• Notable Quote: Georgia muses, “How could you not at least have some kind of messaging there?” reflecting on the failures that allowed Graham to evade capture initially (16:39).

Inspiring Justice: Maria Altman's Quest for Art Reclamation

Transitioning from murder to resilience, Karen narrates the poignant story of Maria Altman, a Jewish woman who fought to reclaim her family's stolen Klimt paintings from Nazi plunder.

• Historical Background: The Bloch Bauer family, prominent Jewish patrons of the arts in Austria, had their prized Klimt portraits seized by Nazis during World War II. Maria's aunt Adele was the subject of Gustav Klimt's famous "Portrait of Adele Bloch-Bauer I."

• Immigration and Loss: Maria and her family escaped Austria, leaving behind their art collection. Post-war efforts to recover these artworks were stymied by Austrian laws and bureaucratic hurdles.

• Legal Battle: With the help of attorney Randall Schoenberg, Maria waged a decade-long legal battle, culminating in a landmark U.S. Supreme Court decision favoring her claim. In 2006, she successfully reclaimed six Klimt paintings, including Adele’s portrait, which was subsequently displayed at the Neue Galerie in New York City (62:35).

• Notable Quote: Maria states, “They will delay, delay, delay, hoping I will die, but I will do them the pleasure of staying alive” (60:05), underscoring her unwavering determination for justice.

• Cinematic Adaptation: The story was immortalized in the film Woman in Gold (2015), starring Helen Mirren as Maria and Ryan Reynolds as Randall, highlighting their relentless pursuit of rightful ownership and the emotional closure it brought to Maria (67:02).

Closing Segments: Hoorays and Community Engagement

In wrapping up, the hosts share personal "hoorays" celebrating moments of joy and resilience. Georgia expresses pride in her niece Ashley for taking control of her mental health and embarking on a solo trip to London, reflecting on the importance of family support and self-care (72:11). Karen shares a humorous anecdote about using the word "tantamount" in a work email, inspired by a previous podcast episode (72:53).

Final Thoughts and Announcements

Karen and Georgia conclude the episode by encouraging listeners to participate in the "Briefcase Challenge," engage with the podcast community through social media, and support their network’s various shows. They also highlight the return of their popular SSDGM necklace merchandise, designed by listener Nina Palacio (75:44).

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Notable Quotes

• Georgia Hardstark (00:45): “What has changed? It's a real business. It's a business that we have to do in a businesslike manner.”
• Karen Kilgariff (01:15): “When I get to that level, lock it down.”
• Georgia Hardstark (02:58): “For some reason, that is what adulthood means.”
• Maria Altman (60:05): “They will delay, delay, delay, hoping I will die, but I will do them the pleasure of staying alive.”
• Carly Princell (72:53): “Stay badass, my ladies.”
• Georgia Hardstark (72:11): “Fucking hooray for finding a small glimmer of fun in the shitty world.”

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Conclusion

Episode 478 of My Favorite Murder seamlessly intertwines dark true crime narratives with inspiring stories of justice and resilience. Through the harrowing case of the Teacup Killer and the triumphant legal victory of Maria Altman, Karen and Georgia demonstrate the multifaceted nature of their podcast—balancing macabre tales with uplifting victories. The introduction of the "Briefcase Challenge" adds an engaging interactive element, encouraging listeners to participate and connect with the hosts on a personal level. This episode exemplifies the show's commitment to delivering thought-provoking and emotionally resonant content, making it a compelling listen for both longtime fans and newcomers alike.

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Stay Sexy and Don't Get Murdered
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Follow the show on Instagram at @mymfavmurder
Listen on iHeartRadio or your favorite podcast platform.

Transcript

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is exactly right. My savior.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hello, and welcome to my favorite murder.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's Georgia Hardstar.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's Karen Kilgariff.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is the podcast we've been doing for 9.3 years.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's so true.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Most people do seven years.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or podcasts.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Seven podcasts. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Do you think anything's changed? How have you. Have you changed at all in the past nine years?

[Georgia Hardstark]

What has changed? It's a real business. It's a business that we have to do in a businesslike manner.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It is a business setting. I'm wearing a business dress from the 70s. Yes, it is. To do business.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or 80s, probably.

[Georgia Hardstark]

How did it feel to do business in a dress like that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That powerful.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. There's like, a power play to this dress and to dressing like a business lady.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And having, like, a. Not a suitcase.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Briefcase.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Briefcase. I don't have one, but that would be great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When you get. When you get one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

When I get to that level, Lock it down. Once I get to the level of briefcase. I remember my dad coming home from work when I was a kid and, like, go in his briefcase and smell it, and there'd be all these, like, paperwork. It was just exciting. Dad's briefcase.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Dad's briefcase. What was Marty doing when he had a briefcase?

[Karen Kilgariff]

He worked at century 21. He was, like, a real estate salesman guy. He was a salesman. So we'd come home from these business trips, and we'd open the briefcase and there'd be candy bars for us in it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it was like, fuck, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's kind of funny, because that just made me realize that there was a part of me that was disappointed that my dad did not have a nine to, like. You know when you're a kid and you just think your life is supposed to be exactly like the kids at school?

[Karen Kilgariff]

You were disappointed that your father was a hero firefighter, and it was boring to you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was like, why doesn't he come home with a tie on? Yeah, why doesn't he? So at some point, he was gonna get a business degree. He was gonna finish, like, his unfinished college.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So he was gonna get a business degree. And so I would go in and look at his homework. And the example from his homework was something about opening a shoe store. And I was like, you're gonna open a shoe store downtown? And he was like, it's not a real shoe. And I was like, what kind of shoes can we get? And I. To be like, that's what normal people do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. But then they don't work. My dad opened a hot dog franchise in Lake arrowhead in the 80s, and guess what? It's not there anymore.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, it's just one of the many things you can do, like restaurant business. You can be a realtor, sure. You can be all these things. You can also be a civil servant and just leave the house for 48 to 72 hours a couple times a week and roll back in.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But the point is, you have a briefcase, and that's the most important part.

[Georgia Hardstark]

For some reason, that is what adulthood means.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's a sign. It signals something.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. How about I make a challenge to you?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

On the next episode of My Favorite Murder. And people that watch the video of this will be able to see it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Uh oh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You and I bring in our briefcases that we're going to start using at work.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. Find a briefcase challenge.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Briefcase challenge.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

See you out of the closet in Atwater Village. Literally the first thing I thought of.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, they'll have a briefcase. You can't buy it online.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nope.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can it be a purse that looks like a briefcase?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's whatever you would like to go along with your empowerment. You know, this is my work empowerment clothing, which means you can't make me dress up. I am so powerful at work that I literally wear the same ugg boots. Cause I can every single disgusting day.

[Karen Kilgariff]

See my power move with that in that vein is just don't come in. I just feel so powerful that I just don't come in when I don't want to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it's a choice.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right. Briefcase, briefcase. Next episode.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think it would be fun.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, let's do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because I also have now an exact briefcase in my mind that I'm going to try to find.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Of course you do. I can see it. Is it oxblood leather? Yes. I knew it. How did I know that that's what it's supposed to be? Someone else's initials on it. Great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. A little worn and kind of bent up at the bottom. Yes. Are we both now trying to find an oxblood briefcase, or was yours different?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's what comes to mind when one thinks of 80s women's. We've gotten so far off the deep end on briefcases here.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is the deep end we should have named. If we had named this podcast the Deep End, we would have never gotten in as much trouble as we used to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or as much money.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, guys, take the good, you take the bad, you take them both. And there you have the facts of podcasting.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. Speaking of, what a weird coincidence that last week I mentioned to you Valerie, the dachshund who had gotten lost on Kangaroo island in Australia. Not even Kangaroo Island. I don't think she was lost. She was thriving. Thriving and living her best life. She escaped.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The clutches of capitalism. You know what I mean?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, I do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, the clutches of, like, conformity. And she was like, absolutely.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not just running.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Running free.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Running free and being taken care of by animals on that island.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Totally. It's going to be a movie. So she was on her own for 529 days, and then I mentioned her, and then, like, two days later, she got found.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She was on her own for two years. Yeah, basically.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You'll see a picture of her. She looks really happy. She looks really proud of herself. She's a little fucking bitch.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, she should be.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Very bad girl. Very bad girl. But try telling her that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So much footage of her just running.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know. And then, like, nightcam footage of her, like, eating the food that's left for her being like, fuck you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But they say animals were grooming her because she looks so good. She's not all fucked up looking. So they were, like, animals on that island were definitely taking care of Valerie.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Valerie. What a sweetheart. Well, I'm happy for that. So good job, everyone. Good job, everyone.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Good job, everyone. Including. And mostly Valerie. Yeah. But now we have to go into one of the most dramatic corrections corner ever.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Another Australian issue. Everyone in Australia listeners, I want you to know, and maybe I'm wrong about this too, but here in the US we say emu, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Emu sounds like a meme.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Australians, we understand it's the way you say it. We're not arguing that anybody should say it. Say it the way you grew up hearing it in your region.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because to us. To me, I'll say me, too. Saying emu sounds like you went to London for a semester and now you're back with your beret and your different pronunciations.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm sorry. We kiss on both cheeks. I forgot that we're not. Oh, my God. I spent the two weeks in Paris. Yeah. So I say emu.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We say emu here, but also completely understand. But you can't expect us to say it. Cause that would be like, if we were like, oh, the aluminium foil.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. Or, oh, you know what my mom, Janet said? She told me, like, blah, blah, blah. No, I'm not gonna do that. We can't, because then you'll yell at us for that. No, you won't you don't yell at us, but you know, well.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And also the yelling is the show. This really. It is the show. We do the yelling, we fuck up so that you have something to engage.

[Karen Kilgariff]

With, something real to yell about that doesn't make you feel horrible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Also, how many podcasts have you listened to where someone is doing something weird and it drives you insane the entire episode? Yeah, that's podcasts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's true. There's so many of them to choose from.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Now, let's go on to the next correction, which is that I referred to Eben Moss Bacharach's role in the bear as him being the brother in the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Bear, and I knew that he was called cousin, and yet I just let it go right past my head. Who cares?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because it's personal conversation. Also, I watched the first season, have not yet watched the second season. Definitely plan to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Stressful.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So fucking stressful.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so stressful.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The first season episode where they forgot to turn the thing off and the orders just started coming through.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I've watched all three seasons. Think I can handle the cortisol levels that it brings for season four.

[Georgia Hardstark]

For real?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I just don't think I can do that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Some of us already have that cortisol coursing through our veins. Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I have that still from when I worked in restaurants. I don't need it again. You have the same thing with writers rooms. It's like, why would I watch a TV show about the most stressful time in my life?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Right. So no, it's a no. Thanks. But not to say we don't love that show.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Conversational details. You'll get me on that every time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And. And that's okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's why we're here. That's why we have briefcase.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And also that's. That'll be. That'll go on our notes in our briefcases, and we'll fix it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's exactly what will go in our briefcase.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because, listen, there are certain parts of Ireland that I'm scared to even discuss or talk about.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We all are.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When I hear people talking about dairy and remember that I called it legendary because I intentionally was like, I better look at a map to get this right. And how that even maps are wrong.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Even maps are wrong.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Maps do not reflect.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm sorry. Cultural requirements, significance and requirements. Speaking of cultural significance and requirements, we have a podcast network. It's called Exactly Right Media. Here are some highlights.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And this week on the Knife Off Record, Hannah shares the wild truth story of Osama El Atari, a flashy con man turned jailhouse informant who helped take down a serial killer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So fascinating.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cannot wait to listen to that. Also, she and Pesha discussed the book There Is no Ethan by Anna Akbari, which is part memoir, part explosive window into the mind of a catfisher.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They are doing the most fascinating stuff over there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Great show. Great podcasters. Yep.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And speaking of our newer shows on Dear Movies I Love youe, Millie and Casey are talking about the magic of mockumentaries and the iconic film Waiting for Guffman. Ugh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The best.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're also joined by the hilarious Arden Mirren to talk Dirty Dancing. And Millie almost kicks Casey off the podcast this week. Things get so heated. So make sure you tune in to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Dear Movies, I Love youe on the most dramatic Dear Movies I Love youe Yet. This podcast will kill you. We'll be doing a two part series on raw Milk starting this week, because what is the deal with Raw Milk? The Aarons kick off the series with a look at how dangerous milk was before pasteurization, how Louis Pasteur changed the game, the rise of anti pasteurizers, and how today's raw milk movement ties into a bigger anti science agenda. So definitely listen to that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You'd be like, hey, are you interested in milk? And I'd be like, no. And then you read that paragraph and you're like, yeah, I want to know everything. That's what they do. They make milk interesting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Also, with all of the deregulation that's happening under this administration, we are going to need to know this stuff because it's about to start getting seriously dangerous.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Absolutely. Speaking of dangerous, on Ghosted by Roz Hernandez, Roz smashes a ghostly mirror and unleashes Monet X Change. They talk past lives, Bigfoot and Joan Crawford's extremely haunted house. Hell yeah. If you love Monet x Change, which we all do, you have to go listen to this episode of Ghosted.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nick Terry has brought us a brand new episode of MFM animated. It's called Bumper Boats. It's based on MFM Minisode 426 and it is now available on our YouTube channel. So please go over to our YouTube channel. You will find full episodes of this podcast. It's called My Favorite Murder, full episodes of Buried Bones and much, much more over on YouTube.com exactlyrightmedia.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Please give it a follow. It helps us and closing out with some beautiful and huge news from the merch world. Our SSDGM necklace has been restock so we put up this gorgeous gold necklace. It's designed by a listener, which is so exciting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So cool.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Nina Palacio and her company is called Civil Collective C I V A L. It's a gorgeous gold necklace with a beautiful shiny chain. And it says, stay sexy and don't get murdered on the little pendant.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It has MFM on the back. It's MFM on the back. So cute.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This necklace sold out in hours when we first put it up. So go ahead to exactlyrightstore.com and get yours before it's gone. Ooh, it's, like, heavy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it's very high quality. And I really love Nina's actual, like, font and design on that pendant is so pretty.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can I wear this? Oh, I did it over my headphones.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, perfect.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Does that work?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Did you give a little turn to the. Da na na na na na na na da na na na na na na na. Yeah. Just hold your shirt up in this hole.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. Like that? Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Now there's your power right there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We got the sex appeal for this episode. Boom, boom.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're first.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm first. Okay. So I got the idea for this story from a post on the really awesome Instagram account, ealhistoryuncovered.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nice.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And they're always just putting out fascinating stories I had never heard before.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It breaks my heart. I follow a lot of TikTok accounts like that, too, where I'm like, can someone please teach me what has happened in the past that's of interest and, like, in a way that will engage me? And there's so many.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's what we do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Kind of. I mean, the people that are, like, historians. Oh, yeah. They're like, this is why you will love learning about this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

About milk. Totally. I agree. Okay, so today's story, Karen's gonna sound like it comes out of, like, Victorian England.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But it doesn't. It's actually more recent.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, that's bad, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, it's so. Yeah. I mean, it's just, like, so dated. If I didn't tell you what year this happened in, you'd think it was from, like, the 1800s or 1700s, but it's not. It's 1970s. It's about a serial poisoner who is responsible for at least three deaths, but possibly, allegedly, several more. It's a really frustrating case because many people looked the other way or even enabled this person ultimately costing several innocent lives. This is the story of the teacup poisoner. Sounds like an episode of Dr. Perrault. No. Mr. Perrot.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Perot, Poirot.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Pro.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There we go.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Dr. Poirot.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Dr. Poirot. Oh, that's my OB GYN. Okay. The main source for this story are a documentary called Murder in a Teacup. Clever. And reporting from the Daily Telegraph and the rest of the sources can be found in the show notes. So it is May of 1971.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Picture it, guess how old I am. 01.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My first birthday.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah, right, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thanks so much.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Happy first birthday.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thanks so much. It was great. I had a really good time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're in the village of Bovingdon. Bovingdon.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Bovington, yeah. Please say it the way that right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Outside of London, Bovingdon, this small village is home to a business called John Hadlan. That's the name of the business which manufactures highly technical camera equipment. It's a smallish firm with about 80 employees. That's a big company, Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

John Hagland, I bet, had a really nice briefcase.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I bet he did, yeah. Many of those employees have worked there for decades. It's just like a small town with a nice little business in it. It's a very close knit environment is what I'm trying to say. I get you an employee named Bob Eagle comes down with a mysterious illness. Now, Bob oversees the company storeroom and he's 60 years old. Up until now, Bob had been completely healthy, but now he's having stomach cramps, diarrhea and vomiting. The trifecta of you've been poisoned. That's what we know now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Something terrible has happened.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. And it goes on for weeks. Bob gets much better when he takes a week off for vacation, which should have been a red flag for everyone. But then the mysterious illness comes right back again when he gets back. Yeah, I think that's what's great about being a murderee now is like, even if you're wrong, at least you're looking into like a suspicious thing that. Like the red flag, you know what I mean?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, yeah, you're accusing someone of being a poisoner. But what if they are?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, just standing by for the people who are just like, well, I guess it's nothing. Go back to the place where you start to get sick every time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like it's just a thing. There's some of us from trauma who have severe pattern recognition abilities. And so when other people kind of don't or intentionally turn away, it's both frustrating and then also ultimately very satisfying.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Totally. Well, it seems that other people around the company are also getting sick. They initially dismissed it as a virus that's been going around, nicknamed the Bovington bug. The Bovington bug. But in Bob's case, this illness becomes deadly. By July of 1971, Bob is admitted to the hospital not just with stomach cramps, but with paralysis as well. He dies in the hospital, and the cause of death is ruled to be pneumonia. At Bob's funeral, one of his newest and youngest coworkers represents the firm in giving his condolences to Bob's grieving widow. This young man is named Graham young. He's only 23 years old, and he started work at the company right before Bob started getting sick. His co workers know that Graham had spent time in treatment after a, like, vague family tragedy and that he's gotten his job through a special training program after having undergone treatment. But what they don't know is that Graham has already been convicted of three separate poisoning deaths.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Nobody told anyone.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. That is very Victorian of the 70s, right? I mean, how could you. How could you not at least have some kind of messaging there?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Like, do you have a record the way you would have to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or just like, yeah, go get that job. Good faith and everything. And then the senior staff needs to know, if anybody starts getting bad stomach aches, please call us immediately.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly. Something, something, something. Okay. And that's kind of what this story is all about. So let me tell you about Graham Frederick Young. He's born on September 7, 1947, in north London. His mother dies only 12 weeks after he's born, and he's initially raised by his aunt and uncle, and eventually his father remarries and he reunites the family, which isn't great for Graham because his st. Stepmother, Molly, it says they don't get along, but I feel like if you're an adult and you don't get along with a little kid, it's kind of like there's more to it than that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, for sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, you just, like, don't have differing opinions and political views. You're just like, you're not that cool.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're stepping into a family to become, like, a mother figure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're not allowed. Allowed to not get along with anyone under 15.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly. Like, you don't ask questions to little kids in public, and you don't not get along with little kids. You're the asshole in this situation.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Am I the asshole? Yes, you're the asshole.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. You should have marked little box on the dating application and said no kids.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, exactly. As he gets older, Molly starts destroying his belongings and withholds food from him. So Graham goes on to become a Very isolated child, not surprisingly, who makes no effort to make relationships with other children. This being the 1950s, no one really addresses these issues. He's just considered an odd kid. And as soon as Graham is able to read, he becomes obsessed with nonfict accounts of murder. This doesn't mean much on its own, but then Graham becomes interested in the occult and he tries to recruit other kids in the neighborhood to join him to ritually sacrifice a cat. I don't. You know, this is just the line I saw. But during this time, several neighborhood cats go missing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Dark triad. You might as well just say it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly. As Graham gets older, he discovers another fascination. And this one, I feel like, is like part of the dark triad, like outer bubbles. He's obsessed with Hitler and the Nazis. Oh, you know what I mean.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yep.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He takes to walking around in a black leather duster and carrying a copy of Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler. This is always bad news. But this is also England, only 14 years after World War II. But Graham's biggest fascination appears to be chemistry. Graham's father buys him a chemistry set, and Graham is obsessed with it. He spends so much time reading about chemistry that at the age of 13, he's able to walk into a chemist's and convinced the chemists working there that he is 17. Because he knows so much about chemistry that they assume he can't be that young.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So he's really smart.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Yes. And 17 just happens to be the age that you're allowed to buy large quantities of arsenic, antimony and thallium.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's an age limit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

17? Yeah. 17. What?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I mean, I'm sure there's some. Like, if you were a rat catcher or something like that, there's reasons you would need to do that. But why wouldn't we bump that up to 21? Just like kind of in an adult, if you have a job and it's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cause it's the 70s and they don't care.

[Georgia Hardstark]

God, it truly was like, we're gonna try to kill you in every way possible.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can you get away with it then? You got away with it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I did.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Congratulations.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thanks so much. I was really young and I made it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So all three of these chemical elements are usually considered heavy metals and they're all highly toxic at the time. Arsenic and antimony, which, by the way, I think is pronounced differently in England. So just antimony and timony and timony. They are well known poisons, but thallium poisoning is generally unheard of. If you're interested in this, don't Forget to read the Poisoner's Handbook by Deborah Blum that has so much information of old school poisoning. Yeah. It's so good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's so good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The people in the chemist shop believe that Graham must be a high level chemistry student because they were like, why would a child be interested in this?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it's an easy assumption to make.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, definitely. And Graham tells him he's using these chemicals for studying purposes. So they're like, oh, here, you know, must be in school. And it's true that he's gonna use these for studying purposes, but it would quickly become apparent to anyone paying attention that Graham is studying the effects of these poisons on live subjects.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So not great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Again, he's about 13 years old. He's the best student in his secondary school's chemistry class. But it's known around school that he has a little laboratory in an outbuilding on the school grounds where he conducts experiments on caterpillars, mice and frogs. And he does this while other chemist are playing at recess.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So that's his fascination, which is like, doesn't mean anything yet. He could go in a completely different direction and become like a brilliant scientist.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Very true. There are a lot of kids that went into an area like this and then, you know, it's like abusive household. You can assume you're looking to escape. Super smart and pretty pissed off.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And then maybe some, like, some communication skills are lacking for various reasons or. Yeah, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It'd be cool if this story turned like. Then he's 16 and he joins a band, Right. Something like that. You know what I mean? He's a. Becomes a really good guitar player, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Totally. No, no, that's not what happens.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In 1961, when Graham is 13 or 14, one of his classmates named Christopher Williams becomes very sick while he's at school. He's vomiting uncontrollably. And Graham tells his family about Christopher's illness, saying, quote, they brought out a bucket for him. I sat and watched. It's like observing the effects of your scientific experiment on another child and telling.

[Georgia Hardstark]

People about it, knowing that they're not gonna be paying attention enough to ask the right questions.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So basically it looks like, you know, Christopher fell ill because of something Graham had given him, maybe a cookie. But Christopher recovers and survives, and it seems like it's not likely the only time that Graham poisoned someone at this period. Good. But no matter what.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Junior high.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, junior high. Secondary school, as they call it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm so sorry. Secondary school. Secondary school.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right around Graham's whole family actually also becomes sick. At first, it's intermittent. And Graham's father actually suspects that his son is just being careless with his chemistry set. Like, you left the arsenic laying around near the T, you know, or something.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just like, you silly boy, you crazy nut. Boys will be boys with their arsenic.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And Graham denies this, and his father, Fred, doesn't really press the issue. Then In November of 1961, Graham's older sister, who is in her early 20s, also becomes ill. And she's actually diagnosed by a doctor as having been poisoned with belladonna. So he's. This doctor, at least, is like, maybe the only one in Britain in the past 200 years who guessed that someone was getting poisoned. Because, like, they were like, you have pneumonia. Bye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. Just over and over. Yeah, they just had one blood test in the 70s. That was it. So you gotta really figure stuff out from.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, and it didn't show up. They didn't take it unless you were dead.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But even though the doctor is like, this girl has been poisoned, Graham's father still doesn't report on his son. Like, isn't like. You know what's funny about that is I have someone living in my house is fascinated with poison.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No. Doesn't either want to connect dirt or doesn't want to get him in trouble or doesn't believe it, whatever it is. But then a few months later, In April of 1962, Graham's father comes home to discover the stepmom, his wife Molly, on the ground in the backyard, writhing in pain. Graham is back there, too, just standing above her, watching her. Molly's taken to the hospital, but is not able to recover. And she dies.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The stepmother.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He kills the fucking stepmother.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Doctors believe that her cause of death is a prolapse of one of her spinal bones because she had been in a bus accident a few weeks earlier. So that's what the cause of death is. But Graham's father still doesn't involve the police. I think he probably just wants to believe otherwise. Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

For sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Like, you know well.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it just sounds like the household was not doing well.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In general.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And they gave him a reason why she died and has nothing to do with poison. So why would he be like, you know, who you should look at is my son. They're not related at all.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Except for the part where he was standing over her while she rides in pain.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not a great look. Just not a great look.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just a mark against, in my opinion.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, Just keep that in the mind. You're not going to tell the cops, but just. You're going to keep it right here.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Your father is absolutely going to keep that right there. And then you'd hope. Hold on to that being like, I guess I am saying it. I'm not saying it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Shit. What do I do? And Graham's father has Molly quickly cremated. And some people say this was at Graham's suggestion. Or maybe he was like, yeah, you know, why would he do that? I don't know. Very shortly after this, Fred, the father becomes ill, having frequent bouts of vomiting. And he's hospitalized and diagnosed with antimony poisoning. So that's probably the same doctor that saw the belladonna. He's like, I'm the only one here.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, maybe. I mean, also because it is like it's a village. I've never heard of it. Not that I know all of them are.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sure. There can't be a bunch of hospitals in the 1960s.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If it is a smaller place, maybe you have like a handful of doctors too. If it's somebody that's seen stuff already.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They'Re like, maybe he's a witch.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No one's going, no, no one's gonna sit there and be like, well, let's see, the son is the only one left. So he's doing something.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. No. It's only then that the police get involved once this happens because one of Graham's teachers hears about Molly's death and Fred's hospitalization. And they finally go to the police explaining about the other kid's illness, school. And saying that Graham had openly brought samples of various poisons to school with him to analyze them. So he's not keeping any of this secret. He's almost like daring people to catch him. And they're like, no, thank you. Yeah, we find our own business here. Finally, this teacher shows them the inside of Graham's school desk, which I just had like chewed up pencils and hello Kitty crap.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I had a nice little packet of spree. You know the candy spree that comes in that long roll.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it fit perfectly in the pencil holder. So I just had them right there. And then I so satisfying slowly put them in my mouth.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, not Graham. His desk is stocked with books about poisoning and various vials.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow. You know, it's just all sitting right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There, not even trying to hide it. When they go through his bedroom, they find quantities of both antimony and thallium. And it's believed that Graham had primarily been using antimony to poison the whole family, but that his stepmother Molly had Developed a tolerance. Well. Cause he had given it to her over months, like slowly poisoning them. And the antimony likely weakened her bones so much that the prolapse of the backbone after the bus accident did actually happen. But it was because the poison was breaking down her bones.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. So that's crazy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So she wasn't like misdiagnosed. Like, how do they not see she was poisoned? Maybe that's true too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But the chain of connection, whatever that I'm trying to say is what is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The little red string on the corkboard.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In the TV show Homeland? It's all coming back around to like. Oh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, Jesus. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Later, it's believed that he had administered a large dose of thallium to her the night before she died. She's such an excruciating fucking death.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Also, it's just that idea of like sitting there and unknowingly building up a tolerance to something that is kind of lightly killing you the entire time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it's so the Princess Bride.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It is. It's also very. It's very symbolic of all of our lives, truly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So Graham is arrested in May of 1962 and confesses to poisoning Christopher, as well as his father and sister. He's not charged with Molly's murder, his stepmom's murder, because there's no physical evidence to charge him with because they cremated her. A judge recommends that he be sent to Broadmoor Hospital for at least 15 years. So at age 14, he becomes the youngest person sent there since 1885. Wow. That's a special place.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just out of junior high. He gets sent to Broadmoor for the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Little more than the amount of time he's been on this earth. He gets sent there. And Broadmoor, as we know, is like not messing around. It's not a pleasant place to be.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So he goes to Broadmoor and shortly after he arrives, a fellow inmate dies of cyanide poisoning. Oh, what a coincidence.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just right when he gets there, he's able to. As a 14 year old, it's treated.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like a huge mystery. Even though Graham boasts about having committed the poisoning immediately after it happened. Like, no one takes this kid seriously, it seems like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, he's there for God's sake.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's not a visitor.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No. He says that John had annoyed him and that he had made the cyanide by distilling laurel leaves which grew on the Broadmoor grounds. So he just made his own.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Poison.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's very smart.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, he's very smart. I mean, that's an industrious. But he's a murderer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, he is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And the staff at Broadmoor totally believe that he did this. But for some reason, no higher ups take any action and the patient's death is ruled a suicide. Moving on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And people keep getting sick abroad more while Graham is there. On one occasion, patients and staff start feeling ill while they're drinking tea, which, you know, they do so much.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They really love it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And then a patient discovers an empty box of sugar soap near the communal tea urn in the dining hall. Sugar soap is an abrasive compound used for cleaning walls. I think it's like that powder soap that you get, maybe.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. The incident's never directly linked to Graham. It's dismissed as a prank, but it could have resulted in mass poisoning if more people had drank large quantities of the tea. And it's so interesting that he left the box behind, almost like he's so smart. That couldn't have been an accident. He did that on purpose.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Absolutely. Because, I mean, and I feel like we've seen this a little bit before where it's like the longer they don't get caught, the more outrageous everything get, the more they are. I mean, it feels similar to that sociopathic kind of I'm the smart, or psychopathic, whatever the correct term would be that I'm the smartest person. Everybody is just a fool and I can manipulate all these things totally. It's like now he is daring.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He wants to know if he really is the smartest person in the world.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Definitely. But it doesn't matter because Graham is released from Broadmoor in February of 1971, when he's 23 years old after only serving nine years of his 15 year sentence. Graham had openly told hospital staff that he plans on killing one person for every year of his time at Broadmoor. It's noted in his file. But I guess, like towards the end of his sentence, he starts acting well. And they're like, guess he was joking. Everything's fine now. Let him go. That's all it took. Good behavior.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's like he's telling them to hear it and see it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And they say, no, thanks.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's still just a kid. Like, you gotta teach your children well or something.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Also, there's a piece of it that is like he was not seen or heard. He was abused.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then it just is continuing, like no matter what he does.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's kind of invisible.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. After his release, Graham is put into a job training program where he's Trained to work as a storekeeper, managing inventory. And under this program, some of the administrators in the training center are made aware he had been recently released from Broadmoor. So they are letting those people know, but it seems like no one knows why he was there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Kind of the most important. Definitely part of that information.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Definitely. Hey, it's not flu season and everyone's getting sick.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Here's what you gotta do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Check your sugar.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. During this time, a fellow student at the training center becomes sick. According to some articles, he had been a sailor and had never been seriously ill in his 21 years of life.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Graham's roommate, was that connected to him being a sailor?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, she said he got sick, which has never happened.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. You know what I mean?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Got it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that's why he was the same.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're like, he's a sailor, so he never got sick. I'm like, what is it? Is it the wind? Big sails?

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're not intertwined.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They just happen to both be true.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I see.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then also Graham's roommate in the hostel he lives in also falls ill. Both men ultimately recover and Graham finishes the program, moves away. Nobody gets sick again there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

At least no one died there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, this brings us to April of 1971, when Graham gets a job through this training program at the John Hadlan company where we started the story. His immediate supervisor, as I said, Bob Eagle, dies within two months of Graham starting at the company. Nobody gave anyone a heads up there. And since no one at John Hadlan had any idea about Graham's past, and no one seems to be keeping any kind of tabs on him after his release, nothing is done. Graham is promoted to Bob's position as head of the storeroom. After Bob dies.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Huh?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He wasn't trying to get that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't think so.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I don't think he cared. I don't think storeroom was his, like, passion.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, it's killing through poison was his passion.

[Karen Kilgariff]

By September of 1971, John Hadlan is having major issues with staffing because so many people are getting sick with various ailments, most of them stomach related. But there are also complaints of hair loss and headaches. Remember that one office, like many years back when they had to evacuate the building. Cause they opened the fridge and food had been in there so long that it was like a toxic mold.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That got in the air and everyone started getting sick and they had to like hazmat the place.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No way. I don't remember that. That's Incredible.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Office bridges are so disgusting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There are definitely half burritos in our refrigerator that I am responsible for that probably could kill. But Brian, our office manager, goes in.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And throws shit away because we don't need that liability.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I actually caught Brian sniffing the milk when I ran out of the meeting really quick to go get a spoon. And he was just standing there like this. And I'm like, thank you very.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you so much.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh no. You guys believe pass by dates. They're there for a reason.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And also have somebody with their eyes on. It matters.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank God for Brian.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So other people complain of hallucinations which probably weren't fun like Andra. Yeah. When you don't have a reason for hallucinations, they suck.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You don't know what's coming and suddenly you're just kind of like, the carpet is snakes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Why does your face look like an orange peel?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Come on. Yeah. You're not out on a hill somewhere enjoying yourself. You're in an office.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Sucks when you're sober, let alone fucked.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Up, let alone hallucinating against your will.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So people wonder if there could be an issue with water contamination or radiation. But no one has pinpointed the cause. But at this point, another employee, a 60 year old man named Fred Biggs, is admitted to the hospital with similar symptoms to Bob Eagle, who had passed away. So stomach issues that devolve into paralysis. And Fred passes away two months later in November.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's two dead at the company and many sick. So after Fred's death, a company doctor meets with all the employees to reassure them that like, everything's fine, even though we don't know what it is. Are you okay? Okay. Sign here.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Having a job sucks so much anyway, right? Just thinking of any like, office job I've ever had or. Or it's always the gap. But that idea where you're just kind of like, this isn't my dream. I'm trying to make a buck. I just wanna get home, die over it, and I'm just gonna drink the wrong cup of tea because no one can communicate.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's how I felt after 9 11, when it was like, I'm gonna go to my high rise building that I hate and I might die in it. Like for fucking minimum wage. That doesn't. I should just stay home for zero wage for several years. I thought you were gonna say okay, so fre. Okay. So the doctor comes to me with everyone and tell them that everything's fine, even though clearly everything is not fine. And at the meeting, Graham can't help himself. He stands up and starts asking lots of questions, which everyone hates. The guy who asks questions in the meetings like, shut up. Can we get this over with? Graham asks if the doctors have considered the possibility that both Fred and Bob were poisoned by thallium. So he's just like, he wants to get caught or he wants credit?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Almost, yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not like he wants to stop. He wants credit. Yes, the company did keep thallium on hand since it's used in photography, but Graham was actually getting his thallium from outside sources. So when pathologists examined Fred, they realized that he has indeed been poisoned with thallium. And the doctor and the company president called the police.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're like, hey, this guy who kept raising his hand in this meeting is super suspicious. The police search Graham's room and find not only large quantities of poisons, but also a detailed diary. In it, Graham writes about poisoning Fred and Bob's cups of tea and documents the men's responses to the poison. Like he's doing a science experiment.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He writes about Fred saying, quote, November 10th, Eph must have a phenomenal tolerance to the compound, for he is still obstinately alive. If he survives the third week, he will live. This would be inconvenient. End quote. So just sociopath. Can we agree?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sociopath or psychopath?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. This is our unprofessional opinion.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Unprofessional opinion. Up to the Broadmoor doctors to actually diagnose.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And they didn't. It seems like investigators believe that Graham would poison cups of tea from the company tea trolley, and then he'd bring them to Bob and Fred.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So personally deliver them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Gotta keep an eye on your drink, you guys.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What a time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. I mean, tea trolleys.

[Georgia Hardstark]

God. Can you imagine just someone bringing you a nice hot drink every 30 minutes?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can we get that here?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think we could.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. So Graham is arrested and is tried a year later in June of 1972, is found guilty on two counts of murder, two counts of attempted murder, and two counts of administering poison. Over the year, between the arrest and the trial, the details of every single glaring red flag in Graham's life is reported on. And it's a big sensation. He's nicknamed the Teacup Killer, which he actually hates the nickname because he thinks it lasts gravitas, which is like, you don't get to pick your nickname. You are a murderer. You don't get to like it or not like it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Whether you're a murderer or whether you're in seventh grade, you don't get to pick your own acne in this world. Facts of life doesn't work that way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In the wake of the trial, the UK's home secretary calls for a complete review for the process of releasing patients with violent histories. So thank fucking God for that. Yeah. And the end result of this is an establishment called the Advisory Board for Restricted Patients. So something, something does come out of it. Which isn't really much comfort to the people whose family members were killed, but something does. Graham is found guilty and sentenced to life at Parkhurst Prison on Isle of Wight. There, Graham's only friend is another prisoner named Ian Brady of the Moore's murderers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. So that's who your friend is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's the kind of common. And, and they probably both zapped each other when they saw each other with that same psychopathic. Hey, what's up?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Definitely. I actually covered that. The Morris murders in 2017 in episode 62. Trust issues and skate issues. Who knows what that meant?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Trust issues and skate issues.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Uh huh. So Graham dies of heart failure in 1990 at the age of 42. Although some people believe that he was actually poisoned or poisoned himself in the end. Cause 42 is pretty young.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that's the story of the Teacup Murderer. And that's all there is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That is all you're going to say about it. That was amazing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. I mean it's so old timey feeling.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But it's not just this kind of like somebody that's just berserking with poisoning and nothing happening.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No repercussions at all. He killed his stepmom.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Well, great job.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Frustrating.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But amazing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is similar but a totally different area.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The story I'm gonna tell you, I think when I thought of it it was over the holidays because you know my dad, he basically watches football and golf and the news and the weather.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then like just if you had to make me pick one of those. I couldn't pick one right now. If I had to watch one of those four things.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Football, golf, news, weather.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Weather.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it's pretty great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cause then you can like talk about their outfits and I mean I'm into weather.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If it's extreme weather, especially nothing I.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Love more than a person that's going like this to a big map. But actually in their real world, it's just a big green piece of paper. They just have to pretend and look in the monitor. Professionals, they know exactly which direction to move their hand even though it's the opposite of fascinating.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, sorry. Anyway, that was off topic.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Go props to other people. And also then anything on pbs, which we've already talked about. So he'll just watch any old documentary. But when he calls me to say, hey, did you ever see this movie, the Woman in Gold? And I was just like, no, tell me all about what we're talking about. And then he talks about it like, is it the greatest film that was ever made? Because he will not, like pay for any extra apps or anything. So he is truly trying to catch real time movies on regular tv.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I forgot what that was like, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

So it really is actually like when you do stumble upon a good movie.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You'Re like, it's about to start. And you're like, I'm in.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Here we go. And it's historical nonfiction, like, Bring It On.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I've never heard of it, so I'm pretty sure that's how we got to this point of me telling you the story right now. Cause it is a really good movie. So it's late 1990s in Vienna, Austria, and the Austrian Gallery in the Belvedere palace is where countless works from the country's most celebrated artists are put on display. And one of the visitors at that museum today is a woman named Maria Altman. She's a 80s and she lives in Los Angeles, but she is originally from Austria, but because she's Jewish, she and her family had to flee Austria and Europe during World War II. So today's a bit of a homecoming for her, but a complicated one. I bet she's not here for a leisurely stroll through this museum. She moves through the building, the very determined and focused gait until she comes to a very specific painting, and then she stops. And this painting is the Portrait of Adele Blochbauer 1. And one of the most famous paintings by the painter Gustav Klimt. You might know Klimt from his painting the Kiss, which is really gold, and then the guy over the girl. But this portrait, the Adele one, is also very famous.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Looks like it's made out of mosaic tiles. It's just gold and beautiful.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So gorgeous.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And a woman in a beautiful gown.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. An amazing piece of art.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Klimt truly is one of my favorite artists. Like the Kiss, the Adele one has an ornate and dreamy look, portraying a woman in a textured and vibrant sea of gold. Her face calm, her dark hair pinned up, and her hands gently clasped at her chest. This is considered to be an art Nouveau masterpiece. But for Maria Altman, it is much, much more valuable. The beautiful woman in the painting Adele is Maria's aunt. And this painting was commissioned by her Uncle Ferdinand. For years it was proudly display in their family home in Vienna until it was stolen by the Nazis in the 30s.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Whoa.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So when World War II ended, the painting somehow wound up in this museum. And not only did it become the Austrian government's property, but it was one of their most prized pieces of art.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And that's why Maria's here today. This is the story of Maria Altman and the hard fought battle to reclaim her aunt's portrait.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mm. So the Main sources are 2006 episode of PBS's Life and Times, which there's no way my dad did not see. It aired on KCET, which is the LA PBS station. A 2016 BBC article by Kimberly Bradley called the Mysterious Muse of Gustav Klimt and archival articles from the New York Times and the Los Angeles Times. And the rest of the sources are in our show notes. So first we'll talk about Maria Altman's family. So in the early 1900s, the Bloch Bauer family is one of the wealthiest and most culturally connected Jewish families in Austria. Maria's uncle, Ferdinand Bloch is a sugar baron. And his wife, Adele Bauer is the daughter of a banker and a railway executive. So as a sign of how influential both families are, when Ferdinand and Adele marry, they hyphenate their last names, which is very uncommon for the time. Yeah. Okay, so the block bowers are like. It's the block bowers, motherfuckers. I'll say that was on there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Selling invitation. Their thank you notes just said it's not the black bowers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What's that called?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Their family crest.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When you write a letter and it's your. They're stationary. Yeah, yeah. Their letterhead is what I was looking for. So the couple are enthusiastic patrons of the arts. They're known for hosting salon nights in their gorgeous Vienna mansion. Just, just once, can I see it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just the electric lighting, you know, making the place glow, that it was so beautiful.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And they have art pieces like that just sitting around. Gigantic, Gorgeous, beautiful, modern and canopies alone. So at these salon nights, artists, musicians, intellectuals all come together for basically a big dinner party and amazing conversation and like to perform for each other to. There's, you know, it's like artiste intellectual night. The artist, Gustav Klimt is one of the people in this group. So in 1907, he, he is commissioned by Ferdinand to paint two portraits of 22 year old Adele. Both pieces are beautiful, of course, but Adele 1 becomes the crown Jewel of this family's vast art collection, which is said to be one of the most extensive in all of Europe. So about nine years later, in 1916, Maria Altman is born. When she and her family visit her Aunt Adele and Uncle Ferdinand, which is often the Adele One painting is essentially like the backdrop of all of her family gathering memories.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In 1925, Adele passes away at the age of 43 from meningitis.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, of course. Ferdinand's devastated and he moves her two portraits into his bedroom, basically creating a shrine to her. Very sad. And the other portrait, which I love just as much, it's just a totally different vibe. Is that one so gorgeous, rich tapestry, but it's like the turn, little after the turn of the century, so. So, like advanced, gorgeous and cool. Anyway, so 13 years later, in 1938, Hitler moves into and takes over Austria. And at this time, Maria's in her early 20s. She is newly married to a young opera singer named Fritz Altman. So Fritz Altman is taken hostage by the Gestapo and he's held until the family assets are transferred to the Nazi party. When he's released, the couple is placed under house arrest. Luckily, Maria and her family are able to get out of Austria at this time, including Maria's Uncle Ferdinand. So that was the thing is like, of course, if you had money and you had any kind of connections and that started. Started up and you could see the signs, you got out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. For a short period, there was a way to get out if you had the means.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, yeah. But having the means also means they have to leave everything behind.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So all that art, that entire mansion, everything that was in the mansion, jewelry, I mean, they just had to leave with what they could carry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So all of it is plundered by the Nazis, including invaluable sentimental items like a cello belonging to Maria's father, Gustav, that had been played by countless musician friends at those salons. Maria says, quote, when the Nazis came and picked up the cello, it was like the thread of life was cut. My father died two weeks after that. It was absolutely a broken heart. He died of a broken heart.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow. Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So also, Adele is actually wearing. In the painting Adele Won, she is wearing a diamond necklace and earring set that they actually had at the house, and that's also stolen along with everything else. Ferdinand gifted that set to Maria as a wedding present. But during the war, it winds up in the hands of Hitler's second in command, Hermann Goring, who gives it to his wife. Ferdinand's sugar Refinery and his home, the mansion, are also seized. And all the artwork inside it. And the Nazi? None. As the principal architect of the Final Solution, Reinhard Heydrich, moves into their home.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did you see Zone of Interest? I watched that with my dad. It was just that when she gets the bag full of fur coats.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And there's just stuff in the pockets. It's just like so quietly haunting, that movie.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What about the scene where the mother in law is up in her room cause the fires from the concentration camp ovens are lighting up her room. And she's just standing at the window. That was one of the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's gone the next day.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. It was like one of the scariest. And it's so like just. There's no sound.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Except for like the distant.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think that movie also won for sound design because of all of that. That was such a huge part of that movie.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A Zone of Interest. You guys make sure you watch it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Have to see it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You gotta be up on this shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, yes, today especially. And these days especially. But also. Cause that thing of like there's a wall and we can pretend over here, nothing's happening over there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. Good point.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So essentially everyone knows that this is what the Nazis did during World War II. Then they lost. Important to remember that. And then, of course, what happens after the war? The chronology is very unclear, so it's hard to track what happened to the bloc Bauer family's art collection. The BBC describes it as a quote, ownership limbo. What we know is that a handful of their paintings, including Klimtz two portraits of a dead, are shuffled between different Austrian institutions. They ultimately land at the Austrian gallery in Vienna. So meanwhile, the Blocbauer family has split up, of course, because they all had to emigrate. So Ferdinand winds up in Switzerland. He passes away just a few years later in near poverty because of course, they took everything away from him. Maria and Fritz arrive in the United States in 1940. They actually had to like escape and come kind of bounced around Europe a little bit. Finally got to America in 1940. They settle in Los Angeles and basically rebuild their lives from scratch. In Los Angeles, Fritz gets a manufacturing job with Lockheed, while Maria starts selling luxury cashmere goods made by her brother in law, Bernard Altman. So Bernard Altman fled Austria and relaunched his small business selling cashmere goods in New York City. After of course, the one that he had in Austria was taken over by the Nazis. So at this time, cashmere is like a novelty in the United States. Really. The average person doesn't know anything about it, basically. But as Maria shops the clothing around the department stores and boutiques in Southern California, the cashmere business takes off.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Before long, Fritz gets to leave Lockheed and they're able to open their own shop in Beverly Hills.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So Maren makes a personal note to me, which I love, because her personal notes are always as interesting as anything else in the story. She said you can still buy Bernard Altman's vintage cashmere pieces on places like Etsy and ebay, so you can. Something to look up and just see. But so interesting to me because cashmere sweater. Like, my mom was obsessed with cashmere sweaters. And, like, she would. That was a big gift she would give you on your certain birthdays. I love them. But it was because cashmere in the 50s meant you were like, you had money. And it was very like. Your cashmere sweater is a beautiful look. You know, it's weird to me that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That time period in like a maybe 1 mile radius is where my family is living their lives at that very moment.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Absolutely.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So weird.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In la.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. They probably went to my grandfather's butcher shop and bought their meat from him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right? Absolutely.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know what I mean?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So crazy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And the children of the future will be able to, like, hear this conversation and be like. You, like, press your. A button in your head and be like, now you can play the movie of that happening.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Go back to that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wouldn't that be amazing?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, if it's okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It is not gonna be okay. Whatever. Whatever. It's all bad.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Trying to put a nice spin on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Future of AI And I'm like, no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because then you have to live in that movie because you're actually in prison. Oh, sorry. Too negative. Take it out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, too negative. In the middle of a Nazi story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Leave.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We've lost all perspective. So for a couple that's been through living hell and lost nearly everything in the war, Maria and Fritz are now living the American dream and earning the American dream. They become US Citizens. They are successful business owners, and over the next several years, they welcome four children together. Their lives are safe, they're stable and even joyful, which a beautiful thing after them having to go through something that horrible.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So over the years, the Altmans as a family, try to get the Block Bowers art collection back. They actually succeed with some pieces, but they don't have much recourse when it comes to the higher profile works, including five Klimt paintings, Adele's two portraits, and then three landscapes and then also Some of Klimt drawings.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And that's because the Austrian government is adamant that Adele wanted those portraits and pieces to stay in Vienna. They seem to have the documents that back this up, including a note Adele wrote before the Nazis plundered everything in her home that essentially said, I asked my husband to leave my two portraits and the four landscapes of Gustav Klimt to the Austrian gallery in Vienna. So, believing that they have no leverage, Maria and her family basically give up on recovering those Klimt paintings. And that's that. Maria says, quote, I'd never even thought of taking the paintings away. I was under the impression that they were theirs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Geez.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So decades later, in 1994, Maria's husband, Fritz, passes away at the age of 86. Of course, devastating for her and her family. And then in 1998, her world is upended again. But this time, it's thanks to the work of a prominent Austrian investigative journalist, Hubertiss Schmidt. So Charnine is an internationally acclaimed reporter, and some of his renown is because he revealed former Secretary General of the UN and President of Austria, Kurt Waldheim, was in fact involved in Nazi affiliated groups during World War II.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow. That's so cool.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So now Czernin is making headlines because he's investigating how the Austrian government is handling artwork that was looted by the Nazis. So up until this point, Austria has been quietly returning some of the stolen artwork to its rightful owners. But Czernine exposes it as a coercive process that leaves the government with the exact art they want to keep.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So Austria might, for example, give back certain artwork on the condition that a family signs away the rights to a more high profile piece.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Charnine's reporting helps lead to the passage of an Austrian law called the 1998 Art Restitution act, which tosses out any coercive agreement the government previously used to hold onto looted art. This law also mandates that the government opens its archives to the public for the first time. And who's the first person in them archives once they open them? It's Czernine. And he digs through and finds that Austrian officials withheld the fact that Maria's Uncle Ferdinand, who outlived his wife Adele, who wrote that note saying, I would like my husband to keep these things in Vienna. He outlived her and he left his own will.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which explicitly stipulated that his entire estate should be divided amongst his nieces and nephews.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Maria, at 82 years old, is the only one of those nieces and nephews still alive.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Holy Shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When that discovery is made. So, for her and her family, Ferdinand's will makes the issue crystal clear. His entire estate is legally hers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Damn. My God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But Maria's willing to let the Austrian government keep several pieces of art on one condition. And that's that she wants them to admit that they were stolen from her family.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hell, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They refuse?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hell no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So Maria Altman lawyers up. Hell, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hell, yeah. No, of course. Hell, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I just want you to do one more.

[Karen Kilgariff]

One more time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

One more time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I can do the full time if you want.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just keep doing it. She hires a young attorney named Randall Schoenberg. He's a family friend with deep ties to Austria's pre war art world. He's also the grandson of two prominent Austrian composers. So from the start, Maria's case feels very personal for Randall. He tells reporters, quote, I remember the first time I went to Vienna when I was 11 years old and saw Klimt's gold portrait in the Austrian gallery. My mom pointed it out and said, you know Maria Altman, your grandmother's friend? That's her aunt Adele.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Holy shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can you imagine being able to do that in a museum?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, that's just beyond. Hey, that Mona Lisa. That's your aunt's best friend.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's Marty's cousin Dan's son's Boys. In 1999, Randall files a claim on behalf of Maria, who is now 83 years old, in an Austrian court. That same year, they successfully recover more than a dozen Klimt drawings and nearly 20 sets of porcelain from the estate. But they do not get the six klimps, the big paintings. But they don't give up. The next year, they file a new claim, this time in California, which is a strategic move because in Austria, legal fees are tied to the value of the property that's being litigated. And these paintings are. Are valued at hundreds of millions of dollars.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So taking the case to US Courts avoids this huge financial roadblock, and it also forces Austria to defend itself on foreign ground.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Where they're, like, not as lenient to themselves.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Expectedly, the Austrian government fights back. They try to get the lawsuit tossed. They argue that American courts have no jurisdiction here and that these Klimt paintings, which are now considered to be Austrian national treasure treasures, should stay in Vienna. But Randall counters that under international law, US Citizens like Maria have the right to sue a foreign government for property stolen during war. A US Court agrees, and the case is allowed to proceed in California, even as Austria continues filing appeals.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Damn.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I love that too. Because it's like the reason she is now a citizen of America is because why? Because what happened in because country couldn't stay there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She would have been murdered along with.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All of the other Jews that had to escape this area.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It doesn't compute.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The numbers aren't numbering.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You don't get to say, sorry, that doesn't count over here. Where it's like it has to count.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So in 2001, 85 year old Maria tells the Los Angeles Times, quote, they will delay, delay, delay, hoping I will die, but I will do them the pleasure of staying alive.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because my grandma, who's like the same, they're like the same, lived to be 105. And that means. Or 104. That means that she had 20 more years to enjoy this painting of her aunt if she, if she fucking survived. Which these Jewish women live for ever.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, they do. So you know why?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because they have a period of starvation when they're young. Although she didn't though. But hereditarily, it could be her great grandmother that had a period of starvation and she'll still live longer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's from a culture of people who have been hunted. They have to live, they have to be strong. There's no crime trying in that kind of baseball. You don't get to be soft. You're just forced to be strong, work hard, make do, make do. That's the story of American immigrants.

[Karen Kilgariff]

My grandma used to say, make do so much.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, I was talking about my grandmother also. I mean, like, that's what we can all do. That's what everybody can talk about in their grandparents and great grandparents. So some people, some people, I will do them the pleasure of staying alive. The ultimate threat.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So the case drags on until it finds its way to the U.S. supreme Court in 2004. Its justices rule in Maria's favor and they state that she has the right to pursue her claim in American courts. So by now, Maria and Randall have spent five years fighting the Austrian government. Randall has left a comfy law firm job to. To focus everything on this case, which since the get go, many have considered to be a long shot at best.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's a legacy case, though.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's like personal.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Yep.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So because of that, the two stay focused. Adele and Randall. And Randall ultimately builds his argument around Adele's own words. Because remember, in her will she said, quote, I ask my husband leave my two portraits and the landscapes of Gustav Klimt to the Austrian gallery in Vienna. Randall zeroes in on the word ask he argues that this is simply a request. And since Adele didn't actually own the paintings, Ferdinand did, because he's the man who commissioned and paid for them, her statement has no legal binding power.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God, Words. They're important.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Well, and also, it just. Ferdinand's own will is very clear. Everything goes to the nieces and nephews.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So this argument is successful. In 2006, seven years into the battle, a three judge panel rules in Maria's favor. And just like that, she's granted legal ownership of those six Klimt paintings, including Adele 1.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So for the first time since the 30s, this artwork is reunited with a member of the Bloch Bauer family.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When these Klimt paintings finally make their way back to Maria, she is so overjoyed that she wants to share them with the city of Los Angeles. So they are put on display at lacma.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you think that when the Austrian people sent it over, they, like, kicked it a little and made, like, a little hole in it with. Just to. With you?

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know, I think that I bet you that they sat around, like, crying as they wrapped it up in. In that paper and then in a crate and then in a bunch of other stuff, because it's a masterpiece. It's a masterpiece.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God. So LACMA. Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's at LACMA and it's in 2006. So probably went. I think that they said she immediately shared it with the city.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did you go? I didn't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Of course not.

[Georgia Hardstark]

God damn it. I could have seen it in person.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I was 26. I was fucking busy going to bars and dude. And trying to live my fucking life and not work in a high rise.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I was working in daily television, and I forgot what actual art looked and felt like. Here's her quote from when she talked to reporters about that taking them to lacma. She says, now my hometown is Los Angeles. And these paintings, thanks to the. Followed me to my present hometown. It's just wonderful.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God. I have chills.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think I'm gonna look up what that maybe was like in 2006. Like, people, what that opening was like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God. I'm sure it was epic.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So owning these paintings is a huge job. Maria simply can't afford the exorbitant costs of storing them and insuring them. So in 2006, the same year she gets them, she sells them at auction. The three Klimt landscapes sell for tens of millions of dollars each.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Holy shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then the second Adele commissioned portraits. This one that has less Gold in it. It's just as beautiful, though. It sells for $87.9 million, which in today's money.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So, 2006.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You said that was 2006?

[Karen Kilgariff]

87 million 1. 133.

[Georgia Hardstark]

177.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And guess who bought it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Her grandkids were stoked that day.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Absolutely.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Who bought it? Lacma.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oprah Winfrey.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No way. Oh. Ow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's got Klimt money.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's the only person who has kl. At the time, she was the only Klimt money person.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, that's right. In 2016, Oprah sold it to an undisclosed buyer for a reported $150 million, which is nearly $200 million in today's money. So we're still talking about the other one. So the same year Adele won, which is the most coveted artwork of the collection and the masterpiece considered to be a masterpiece, it's sold to Ronald Lauder, one of the heirs to the Estee Lauder cosmetics fortune.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He also happens to run the Neue Gallery in New York City, which houses Austrian fine art. He buys the painting for a whopping $135 million, which sets a record at the time and is worth about how much today?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Two. $250.

[Georgia Hardstark]

$215.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ah, man.

[Georgia Hardstark]

God. I thought you were gonna. I think that would have been our first on the noser.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Totally. I wasn't. That wasn't. I wasn't gonna.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It happens. Listen, I understand. It's all guessing someday. Mine are never even close.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, it's impossible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So he and Maria make an agreement that this painting will permanently be on display at the Neue to this day. You can go New York City to the Neue Gallery and see it there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's go.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, right. I want to. Maria has said, quote, I am just happy it has a home at the Neue Gallery. It is very deserved. I couldn't have wished for a better place. So before Robert Lauder purchased the Adele one, the highest amount ever paid for a piece of art was a Picasso painting called Boy With. And that was in 2004, and someone bought that for $104.1 million.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So very kind of telling and amazing that it's like. And then this painting comes along and just kind of blows Picasso's doors off totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cause it's got this interesting and rich history, too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it's also just so gorgeous and golden. Yeah, it's gold. So in 2011, Maria passes away after a long illness at the age of 94.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow. Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. But her story Continues to Inspire. And in 2015, it's memorialized in the film Woman in Gold, starring Helen Mirren as Maria and Ryan Reynolds as Randall.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It is a great movie. Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I've never even heard of it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I watched it on a plane one time, and I was like. It was as if I wasn't traveling. Perfect. Like, you're learning, you're loving.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like they go from past to present, and all the things are happening. Oh, my God, I love that kind of movie.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And also, Helen Mirren playing Maria. You get this sense of Maria as this kind of no nonsense. Like, I just want what's right to happen for once.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it's great. It's like proving a point.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So in total, for all five of the Klimt paintings that she was able to recover, she and her family net $327 million at auction.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Jesus.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's worth more than $518 million today.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That family was obviously. Obviously bankrupt.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

During World War II.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ferdinand died with nothing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

These were his. Just, like, stolen out of his hands by Nazis. And this is the value where. It's like, you wouldn't let something of value like that just sit somewhere or.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, especially not by the people who persecuted me. Yes, especially.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Especially.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You can't bully someone and then not expect them to come for you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. To come. Right. But it really wasn't about the money for Maria. As she told npr, because they had money, they set themselves right back up and were like, we made a life for ourselves. As she told npr, quote, it was strictly a matter of justice. And that's the story of Maria Altman's fight to reclaim the painting of her aunt, the Adele Blockbauer one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow, that was so good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Good one, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Such a good one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Go watch the movie.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Love Helen Mirren and all of her insane talent.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Amazing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did you say Ryan Reynolds?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ryan Reynolds. He's great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He is. He's very, like. It's very real. And he's obviously like, he wants to get this done.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no, he's the lawyer. Okay. Okay. That makes more sense. Okay, Got it. He doesn't play a Jew or a Nazi. Right? Because that doesn't. Because I can't and I won't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think he's supposed to be Jewish. He might be supposed to be Jewish.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Good job.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Should we do a couple fucking hoorays so we don't end on Nazis?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's do it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you have one that you want to. Of your Own. Is there a fucking hooray in your life right now?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, there is. Well, there's plenty. But I think the nicest one is I got to hang out with my niece this past weekend. It's just such a delight, the idea that she turned out to be the kind of person that I love hanging out with.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Totally.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which I know not everybody gets to have that or say that. Like, it's just a joy. I'm so proud of her. She's such a good person, and she's so goddamn hilarious. Like, it's just great. It's such a nice feeling. I guess everybody feels that way about their. No, she's very special.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nora is very special.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She really is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. There's no, like, oh, it's cause she's your niece. No, she's a gem.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's the kind of thing where we go to Sephora, and I'm like, you can have anything. I have to whisper it to her. Like, you can get anything you want. Because my sister's like, stop it. Or whatever. And then she literally will come with, like, three things where I'm like, are you kidding me?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, I would have been like, every time. And she's just. Yeah, she values.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, she's a good person. She's like, good job, Laura.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Good job, Laura.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I guess mine has something to do with my sister, too. We got some tiling done in the backyard, and I just noticed, like, a couple weeks ago that one tile is upside down, and it's driving me fucking crazy since then. And I pointed out to my sister when she was over, and she goes, what if it's a portal to another universe? And it made me so happy. I was like, that's so true. And that's how we think. And I love that you pointed it out to me. I will never change it. Like, just that way of thinking made me so happy, and it's just. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I appreciate that she did that for me, because now I love it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's nothing like, sister perspective, because they really. Older sisters kind of set your world for you in an irritating way when you're growing up, but they really do have the power to kind of come in and just be like, actually, that's not a problem, and you're fine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. And it's something that, like, is weird and definitely, like, comes from reading a lot of books and something I would say myself. And so the fact that my sister said it, I was like, oh, yeah, we're. We're the same.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. She knew how to solve the problem.

[Karen Kilgariff]

For you? Yeah, for me specifically. Because a lot of people would be like, what are you fucking talking about? But I'm like, yeah, that actually could be a portal to another universe.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Or just like a different way to look at things that's more fun for you. Instead of, everything has to be a certain way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. Something's wrong and bad. Okay, let's. You wanna read one?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sure. The subject line of this is, it's an email. It says, fucking hooray for our own happiness. And then it says, aunties, I've taken control of my mental health and decided to take a solo trip to London this summer. I'll be starting the trip off strong with a Jack the Ripper walking tour and ending it with a visit to the Tower of London, which is where Anne Boleyn was beheaded. I'll be thinking about Karen the entire time because I know she loves those good European Victorian times. That's very true. Thank you. Shout out to my therapist, Robin, who has taught me to value myself and quote, just fucking go for it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So fucking hooray for finding a small glimmer of fun in the shitty world. Ssdgm. Ashley.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yay. Ashley Glimmers. Love it. Okay, this one's from a YouTube comment. My fucking hooray. I had to write a strongly worded work email about a conflict. I used the word terrible tantamount to sound extra smart. My bestie coworker clocked it and asked me where I heard that word. And I proudly announced that my murder. Aunties taught it to me because it was in a murderer's note to police. See Freeway Phantom Rewind, episode 19. Thanks for keeping me sounding intelligent when telling someone off professionally. Stay badass, my ladies. And that's from Carly Princell, 1801.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thanks, Carly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, good job. Tantamount.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Your report was tantamount to a pile of shit. What if that's what the email was?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's all try to use this week in a sentence that where it fits. Just throw it on in there. Tantamount.

[Georgia Hardstark]

These mozzarella sticks are tantamount to a.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Block of a brick.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did I use that right? I was going to say like an early Christmas. You were doing it in the neg. In the neg, yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is tantamount to it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You don't like mozzarella sticks?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no, no. I'm just saying the ones you ordered.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are bad because I have to quit this podcast now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm talking about a bad order of mozzarella sticks. And I see usually that that's impossible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, because it was, like, a complaint. I see.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Tantamounted. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think. I think you used the wrong. So, okay. You want to do one more?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah. This one is also an email, and it says, my fucking hooray is that after 12 years of living in the US last week I became a US citizen. Can't wait for my first jury duty.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thanks for.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thanks for being awesome. Love, E. E, welcome. E. Yeah. Good job. I bet you right now E knows more about the government than both of us combined.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Absolutely.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Entirely.

[Karen Kilgariff]

My last one is from Instagram. It's from Fire Sign Sammy. Fucking hooray. I just accepted a job fundraising for the library. As a lifelong bookworm, an English major turned English teacher turned nonprofit person, this could not be a more perfect space for me. Huzzah. And then that emoji. Stay sexy and save library, y'all. Sam, P.S. thank you to Georgia for many years of book recommendations. Keep them coming.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I love that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Awesome.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You haven't done one in a little while. Yeah, I mean, just we've talked about other books.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm always reading multiple. I don't know why I don't talk about them. Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thanks, Sammy. Appreciate you, Sammy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Amazing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Tell us your fucking hoorays in any way you think would might work.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Also, I was just gonna say real quick, if you are worried about the library, then it's a good idea to contact your library, where you live, and ask them what they need in terms of donations, in terms of support, in terms of anything. Because our libraries are under attack, and it is completely insane. And that idea that people are being cut off from what is a community service that everybody should have and that many people rely on is insane.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Absolutely.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So activism around libraries is big and important. And thank you. If you're already doing it, good job. Yeah. I think the only thing left left is briefcase challenge.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God. I forgot already. What's that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Two weeks ago. All I've been thinking about this entire time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right. You guys are tantamount to the awesomest people in the world. Thank you guys for listening.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Stay sexy and don't get murdered.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye, Elvis. Do you want a cookie?

[Georgia Hardstark]

This has been an exactly right production.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our senior producers are Alejandra Keck and Molly Smith.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This episode was mixed by Liana Squillacci.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Our researchers are Maren McGlashan and Ali Elkin.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Email your hometowns to my favorite murdermail.com.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Follow the show on Instagram at my favorite murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Listen to my favorite murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And now you can watch us on exactly right's YouTube page while while you're there, please like and subscribe. Goodbye.