482 - Similar Different Problems

Summary

Episode 482: Similar Different Problems

Released on May 29, 2025, "My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark" dives deep into the harrowing story of the Alamo Christian Foundation—a Christian cult that operated for four decades, perpetrating severe abuses against its members.

---

Introduction

In this episode, Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark unravel the disturbing history of the Alamo Christian Foundation, exploring its rise, the manipulative tactics employed by its leaders, and its eventual downfall. Drawing from the comprehensive documentary series "Ministry of the Twisted Cult of Tony Alamo," the hosts provide a nuanced examination of how a seemingly charismatic couple can exploit faith and community for nefarious purposes.

---

Origins of the Alamo Christian Foundation

The story begins in the early 1960s when Susan Alamo (born Edith Opel Horn) and Mark Hoffman (later renamed Tony Alamo) established the Alamo Christian Foundation in Los Angeles. Susan, with her magnetic presence and oratory skills, attracted young followers amidst the countercultural upheaval of the 1960s.

Georgia Hardstark [24:33]: "This is the story of the Alamo Christian Foundation. Have you heard of them? It's spelled Alamo."

Expansion and Manipulation

By the early 1970s, the foundation's operations extended beyond California as they relocated to Saugus, Arkansas. Here, they acquired a desert compound, transforming it into a secluded community where they could exert greater control over their members. The couple diversified their influence by running businesses such as a grocery store, gas station, and restaurant—all staffed by cult members who forfeited their wages to Susan and Tony.

Karen Kilgariff [29:18]: "So, they change their name. So he changes his name to Tony and they change their last name to Alamo."

---

Exploitation and Abuse

Under Tony's sole leadership after Susan's death in 1982, the foundation descended into darker territories. Tony introduced draconian measures to maintain control, including:

• Financial Exploitation: Members were required to hand over their paychecks, funneling funds directly to the cult leaders.

• Child Abuse: The foundation tolerated and even facilitated severe physical and sexual abuse of children, including child marriages and sexual exploitation under the guise of religious doctrine.

• Psychological Manipulation: Susan propagated the belief that failure to adhere strictly to the cult’s rules would condemn members' children to hell, justifying extreme punitive measures.

Georgia Hardstark [53:25]: "He convinced himself that he's helping their children not go to hell. And that's the whole premise."

Business Ventures as Fronts

One of the foundation's most lucrative operations was the Alamo Clothing Brand, launched in 1984. These high-end, bedazzled denim jackets became a hit, adorned by celebrities like Dolly Parton and Michael Jackson. However, the production was shrouded in unethical practices, relying heavily on unpaid labor from young cult members.

Karen Kilgariff [50:31]: "They make customized jackets for, like, Dolly Parton, Mr. T, Brooke Shields. Michael Jackson wears it on the cover of Bad."

Legal Troubles and Downfall

By the late 1980s, increasing scrutiny from authorities led to significant legal challenges. The IRS revoked the foundation's tax-exempt status due to financial irregularities, and federal investigations into child abuse intensified. Despite Tony's attempts to maintain control remotely while evading capture, mounting evidence and testimonies from former members culminated in his conviction in 2009 on multiple counts, including interstate transportation of a minor for sex and federal tax evasion. Tony was sentenced to life in federal prison, where he remained until his death in 2017.

Georgia Hardstark [67:14]: "By the time the case goes to trial, at least 30 people are willing to testify against him."

Aftermath and Legacy

Even after Tony Alamo's imprisonment and subsequent death, remnants of the Alamo Christian Foundation lingered, with sporadic attempts to revive the cult's influence as recently as 2018. The resurgence of Alamo-branded clothing among celebrities, often unaware of the brand's dark history, underscores the lingering impact of the cult's facade of legitimacy.

Georgia Hardstark [69:33]: "As recently as 2018, those now vintage Alamo jean jackets have a resurgence among celebrities."

---

Key Discussions and Insights

• Psychological Control in Cults: The Alamo Foundation exemplifies how religious authority and charismatic leadership can manipulate followers, enforcing obedience through fear and indoctrination.

• Exploitation Under Religious Veil: The use of religious doctrine to justify unethical practices, including child abuse and financial exploitation, highlights the dangers of blind faith and lack of accountability within closed communities.

• Economic Manipulation: By controlling the financial aspects of members’ lives, the cult leaders ensured dependence, making it arduous for members to leave and seek assistance.

• Legal Challenges: The reliance on federal charges like tax evasion illustrates the complexities in prosecuting abuse within religious or closed organizations, where direct evidence of abuse may be hard to obtain.

---

Notable Quotes

1. On Leadership and Control:

   Karen Kilgariff [40:00]: "Come on, dude, I can't even answer emails. I'm talking to God on the daily to tell you what to do."

2. On Abuse and Justification:

   Georgia Hardstark [55:02]: "Don't hit children. You don't use violence to try to fucking parent children."

3. On Survivor Testimonies:

   Georgia Hardstark [65:04]: "These women who are in the documentary and end up testifying against him are so freaking strong and incredible."

---

Conclusion

Episode 482 of "My Favorite Murder" provides a chilling exploration of the Alamo Christian Foundation, revealing the depths of manipulation and abuse that can thrive under the guise of religious fervor. Karen and Georgia underscore the importance of vigilance and awareness to prevent such atrocities from recurring, reminding listeners of the profound impact of cults on individuals and communities alike.

---

Note: This summary intentionally omits promotional segments and unrelated content to maintain focus on the episode's core narrative.

Transcript

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is exactly right.

[Gemma Spag]

Our 20s are often seen as this golden decade. Our time to be carefree, make mistakes, and figure out our lives. But what can psychology teach us about this time? I'm Gemma Spag, the host of the Psychology of your twenties. Each week we take a deep dive into a unique aspect of our 20s, from career anxiety, mental health, heartbreak, money, and much more to explore the science behind our experiences. The psychology of your 20s, hosted by me, Jemma Speg. Listen now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's April 2020. A woman announces on Facebook that she has Covid and won't be seeking medical attention.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I didn't want to be talked out of this plan.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Then she disappears. Anyone else think this is strange?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I just had to know, how did this happen?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Listen to what happened to Talina czar on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kristen Davis]

Hi, I'm Kristen Davis, host of the podcast Are youe a Charlotte? Sarah Jessica Parker is here and she is sharing stories from the very beginning. Like the time she forgot we filmed the pilot episode.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I remember some things about shooting the pilot. Right.

[Kristen Davis]

I have some memories I can fill in and that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're going to fill me in.

[Kristen Davis]

Yes, but then you forgot about it. I completely, in the very long time they took, you forgot about it. Listen to Are you a Charlotte? On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

My sav.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hello and welcome to my favorite murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's Georgia Hardstart.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's Karen Kilgera.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Someone's got a new haircut.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is the place where we trim our bangs an hour before we go on video.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, did you hand. You personally hand trimmed your own bangs?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, and I have a sink at home full of hair to prove it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, I like it. You went down the center.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I did like it because I've been growing it out. So, like, what am I gonna do? And then I'm like, well, I hate it. And so I just went.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You did cotton bangs? Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Did it work?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, it did.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I used the razor scissors from when I was in Beauty School in 1999.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you remember your razor scissor lesson? What was the trick of razor scissors?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Get them, like, make sure you have a new razor in there and not one from 1998, which is what you had.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nice dull razor.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. You could hear the hair.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You can hear the hair cutting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You can hear each hair individually being sliced.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you know how Much. I. I can't have people use razors on my hair. It goes insane.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like the. Cause. Oh, your hair goes crazy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The hair goes so crazy. And it's not. You know, there's like. I follow a bunch of hairdressers on TikTok.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Stylists. Is there a word?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And a lot of them use those razors. And I'm like, I don't. My hair would do that. Do the weirdest shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know what you mean. Because it can't be thinner. It'll just. Vince very, like, carefully said, don't you have someone who does that for you?

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then ran down the hall in his socks at top speed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I laughed so hard. It was just, like, such a careful thing. And it's like, yeah, but obviously you've never been a fucking teenage girl. Cause.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. Cause it's not that hard. And it doesn't. It looks good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know how much better they would do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And also, you're getting into a real curtain. It's got, like, a curtain bangs center part. Are you gonna go into a Farrah Fawcett era this summer?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I could. And then I have, like, the 80s shirt to go with it. Blouse.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Span those decades.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My goal and beauty is to look like Janet from Freeze Company at all times.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I was gonna say Janet from Freeze Company, and then I thought you would think it was insulting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Why? She's gorgeous.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's gorgeous. I don't know. I. Maybe I thought it was too old, so I was just like, file it. File it away.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's my fucking style. That and then a little bit of Mrs. Roper thrown in. You know what I mean? Just like a smooch.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A chunky necklace. Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A moomoo.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We were just talking about the Ropers on Do youo Need a Ride?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, how funny not to cr.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cross promote.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's weird, but it's the truth, man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're, like, psychically connected.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's true.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Psycholy connected.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Psycholy connected.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Speaking of, I have a birthday present for you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's see it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you want it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

To close your eyes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. Close your eyes. Hold on. Gotta tell you when.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wait. Okay. Ready?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Mm.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Open your eyes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The Italian hand.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's an. Explain it. It's an Italian hand on a, like, swing thing. So it does the Italian hand gesture.

[Karen Kilgariff]

With the Italian flag.

[Georgia Hardstark]

With the Italian flag.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So it's like. It's a constant Italian hand gesture of Mamma mia. Abundanza pizza for one. What is that? I bet There's a name for this Italian.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Absolutely.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry. Liana Scilacci. Do you want to tell us what the name of this is? No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

On the spot. Sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You claim to be Italian.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You can't expose me like this. Got you. That was just a big gotcha for.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, exactly. This is incredible. Hopefully we're clear on cameras. Cause that is. I wish it was the kind of thing where you rocked it once and it does it for infinitely.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, like the clacky things.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's an incredible gift. Thank you so much. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Happy birthday. Do you also wanna. I have another one that's. That might be insulting. Like Janet from Three's Company might be insulting, but I bought a self help book and I accidentally got two of them. So I was gonna say that maybe we should read them together and we could have like a self help book club.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, I think that people have been waiting for that for 10 years.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I saw this one and I was.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, is it gonna be confrontational?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, it was like I. It was. I got it. Cause I don't cry and I need to like. I wanna feel feelings and stuff. And so it's not. It's called emotional agility. Ooh. Get unstuck, Embrace Change and thrive in work, in life By Susan David, PhD.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We all need to of those things. That's great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So there we go.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So let's not read it. No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So we're gonna do. We're gonna not read it and we're gonna shut our emotions down and we're not gonna change. I think we should read it and I think we should do like a. That could be a fan cult video of like we read a self help book. And this is what Karen thinks you should take away from it. This is what Georgia thinks you should.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Take away from it. Highlight important things in it for us and then we can like see if we got anything. The same. And I just looked at it and realized that maybe I bought it because there's a cookie with sprinkles on the COVID of it. But I still need em.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So what if we picked cookies to. To eat with every book club?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I was kind of strong. I was thinking about other stuff while I was pitching that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I kind of got distracted.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, you'll pick the next one so it can be whatever you want it to be.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I like this though. We should really do a self help book club. Yeah, I think it's great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And like find one that you think will work for you and like. Because obviously we both have different problems. Similar, different problems.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But I like this. And if I get emotionally agile enough, I can land an Italian man. Could you imagine?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mangia. Is that it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Pizza for one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mangia.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's the thing where like in Inglourious Basterds, the guys that he pretend, he gets to pretend are Italian, but they don't speak. So the one guy, he has somebody asks him a question in Italian and.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He just goes, do you see the baby who does it too? No, there's a baby who does it on TikTok. It's fucking cute.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like a brand new that. It's just a weird thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You sound just do like toddler. So it is weird still, but it's like who were you in your last life? Kind of a thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So the toddler means it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And it's not. He's not Italian. It's very weird.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What does this mean? I guess Italians from everywhere, including our Italian couple's friend that used to come and see us live. Remember the Italians? Maybe they could write in and tell us what. What does the pinched finger hand gesture mean?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Giveaway. Giveaway.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Which means what? It means like what do you want? What do you date?

[Georgia Hardstark]

What do you want? What are you doing?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, it's bad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, it's like this piece of shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it's like, come on, what do you want? Okay, but don't people do it like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like delicious or they kiss, but they kiss it when it's touched.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that's a different thing. Chef's kiss.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Chef's kiss.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The fingers are not like a beautiful.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's like a come on you. Yeah, okay. It's like. How dare you. Okay, well that's perfect for you. Well, now just put on your desk and just whenever someone comes into your office, you could just.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If only that would work.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did you watch the Vince Vaughn show where he like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nevermind say it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, it's stupid.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You don't want to talk about Italy anymore? I don't want to. Did you watch that Vince Vaughn show where he became Italian?

[Georgia Hardstark]

What do you got?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, personally I don't think anything except for to say that it is now pool season again. It's hot enough consistently in la where the swimming has begun again. And I have been waiting and waiting for this. And it was so weirdly mild to not warm for so long. And we're in now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's very exciting. I've started gardening because it's like nice till like 8 o' clock.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know, in the evening.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Warm at night.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Nice glass of wine and get my hands all dirty. It's been fun.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Good. Yeah, that's a nice one. All right, fine, look.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I have an Instagram comment to read that I really liked that I think you'll like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's hear it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So last week you did the story of the shooting in Arizona and how a lot of unhoused people got shot. And we discussed that and you know, like, let's have some fucking empathy everyone. So someone on the my favorite runner Instagram, whose name is feralforestwitch, Feral Forest Witch said this. Thank you for what you said today about humanizing unhoused people. I was once an unhoused pregnant 19 year old living in my truck and working as a merchandiser at Macy's and a receptionist at a day spa. I would sleep in my truck, do a quick Coors bath at a gas station, and change into my work clothes every morning. Occasionally I could couch surf for the trade of cleaning an apartment. No one at work knew I wasn't housed. A miscarriage scare brought me to the hospital and I called my mom. Thankfully, the baby was okay and I decided to keep him and moved back in with my parents. That baby is now 24 and an astrobiologist at 24. Or ever an astrobiologist. You did something right. You did something like what a contribution to the world.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like basically saying that baby is now a rocket scientist.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Essentially.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right, exactly. And, and a loving partner to my wonderful son in law. But I'll never forget that we began life together in a Chevy S10. Like that's how like. Yeah, your co workers, you just don't know anyone's situation.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And these days, these days everyone has two and three jobs because the minimum wage hasn't been raised in a hundred years and the billionaires are keeping all of the money. It's like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And the cost of living is just insane. It's not matching up with what people are being paid. It's fucking, it's, it's abhorrent. We should be so humiliated and like horrified by ourselves in the US that we are treating.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Rise up. Rise up. Rise up. Rise up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Rise up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's over.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck billionaires.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, and also just. It cannot sustain this way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're pushing it to the tipping point.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Absolutely.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In that idea, that bill that just got passed, it's like cutting Medicaid. Cutting like, it's just stripping out any. Anything that's left to give people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And who's getting it, I wonder?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Where's that money going to I mean, it's just.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's crazy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Should we do a donation? Sure, yeah. Let's give a $10,000 donation.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So no kid hungry who we love giving to. Go to nokidhungry.org if you want to help out as well.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, we just do the basics. You could give $5. We're gonna give 10,000. Move some money toward children who are waking up in a Ford F10 with their mom trying to get by.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Their mom's working two jobs and raising kids like it's not right. Y' all, please do what you can. And this is all for the Murderinos when we donate, so thank you guys so much.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. We donated in your names. There's a lot of good in this world, and there's a lot of good we can do. If you don't have money to do good with, what else can you do? Just ask yourself that every day. You'll probably be pretty surprised with the answers you get all around you. Cause the need is there. And also people need to be good to each other. The need within you to give is just as important.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Absolutely.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So absolutely.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's great. If you don't have that, then blood is fine, too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Then give your blood and get a cookie and try not to faint.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I have that blood that's like. You know. Oh, can you. That crazy blood that's just like super rare, super powerful blood.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Does your blood cure cancers in others?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It does.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think I've heard of your blood just like that. Congratulations.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Have, like a. You know, in. In Antarctica, there's a place that has just my blood in case the apocalypse comes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You should sell it on Etsy. You made it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Pull it on Etsy. Well, we have an exciting announcement for you guys, so I guess, yeah, let's just fucking get into it. Right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's get into it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If you're a fast forwarder, don't do it yet, because we got a really fun announcement. Fast forwarder? No, skipper.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. We never called them fast forwarders before. This is exciting news for the real ones. The Fan Cult, which is our fan club, we just named it the Fan Cult. We just gave it a major upgrade.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, we've been working on this. This is so exciting. You guys are gonna love it. It's got so much stuff in it. And now we have added so much more. So to begin with, there's currently an archive of almost 200 mini mini episodes and five years of bonus video just waiting. So if you're not a member yet that's like the first thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's already sitting there. But now we have broken the fan cult into two tiers. So there's tier one, which is called yearna cult. That's $5 a month, and that you get weekly bonus audio and video, early access to live show tickets, access to our discord, which is a new thing. I was told it's something like the Internet version of a fresh salon.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's very fun. And then tier two is call your dad. And you guys have been wanting this. This is the thing that everyone's been waiting for. It's just $10 a month, and you get everything from tier one, plus a $20 merch credit. And here's the very exciting thing. You get ad free episodes of the podcast and videos.

[Karen Kilgariff]

People have been asking for ad free podcasts since we left stitcher back in 1974. And you wanted it. Now we have it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's been very hard. We've been trying to figure out a way. And this is it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're doing it for ourselves. So if you sign up for Tier 2 now, you will get ad free episodes of this podcast. And they upload to Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcast. So they just go there automatically.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's a lot of, like, little details that have been hard and we've done it. And if you sign up before Friday, June 13, Friday the 13th, you'll get the fan cult relaunch discount. So that's tier one for $3.33 a month or tier two for $8 a month. We're not trying to fucking gouge anyone here. We're just trying to put up some exclusive content and stuff.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. And for. And to prove that we're not trying to gouge anybody. You can either pay monthly at those prices or you go yearly. You'll save even more.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If you are a current member of the fan cult, you are automatically moved tier at your original $3.33 price. So don't worry, we're not.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, nobody freak out here. This is a good thing. I know people like to, you know, people don't like change and they get scared, but this is actually really fucking cool and I'm excited about it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So go to fancult.supercast.com to join the cult or just go to my favorite murder dot com. There's links there. And yay, welcome to the fan cult. It's a fucking really fun place to be, I think.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And on top of that, we want to tell you about all of the highlights from our network, it's called the. Exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So this week on Bananas, Kurt and Scotty cover hot topics like attractive psychopaths and a woman falling into a crevasse to get her phone over.

[Karen Kilgariff]

On Ghosted, Roz welcomes the luminous actor and kindred spirit James Scully.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then on I said no gifts. Bridger does his best to stay composed when Tim Kalpakis barges in with a fricking gift.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And this week on this podcast will kill you. The errands tackle toxic shock syndrome.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Whoa. Okay. And then, most importantly, obviously, Hot dog summer has arrived. Straight from the runways of Milan, pulled from the elite couture shops of Paris, we bring you the hot dog collection of our merch again.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. We're re releasing Hot Dog Ladies Muscle Tee. The hot dog unisex tee and a hot dog sticker. So chic, it's so sexy. It's been banned on six continents.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I wear that Hot Dog Ladies Muscle tee to work out in and it boosts me. I mean, I don't want to make any promises, but it's like you can.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Draw power from it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, exactly. So also, this design is by Sammy Rich, so go to exactlyrightstore.com to gr grab yours today or tomorrow. No, no rush. That's not true.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Don't. Please don't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Unless they sell out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, those hot dogs will sell out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Hey, Karen, I want you to picture yourself going for a drive. What comes to mind?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not ever being able to merge on any freeway in Los Angeles. And potholes and crying.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah. Well, the truth is the road can feel like it's out to get you at every turn. But, Karen, it doesn't have to be this way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because Hyundai's available advanced safety technology is designed to help keep protected from all of life's twists and turns.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Their vehicles offer available features designed to help safeguard you and your loved ones.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You can change lanes with confidence thanks to the available Blind spot view monitor, which actually shows you a live video feed of your blind spots.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The standard forward collision avoidance assist can help prevent or mitigate accidents by alerting you of imminent collision. Oh, my God. This happens to me all the time. And automatically applying the brakes if you don't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is needed. Hyundai vehicles are equipped with a standard driver attention warning system, which constantly monitors your attention levels. I. Oh, my God. Once detected, it sounds alerts and visual cues to help bring your focus back to the road.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, get this for me right now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

With available class, exclusive safety features. Hyundai helps to keep you safe so you can enjoy the drive.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Learn more about [e-mail] or call 562-314-4603 for complete details.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's H Y U N d a I usa.com or call 562-314-4603 Goodbye not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Everyone who handles your personal information is going to be as careful as you are, and it only takes one mistake to expose it to hackers and identity theft. Maybe that's why there's a nude victim of identity theft every five seconds in the United States. Fortunately, there's LifeLock. LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats to your identity. If your identity is stolen, a LifeLock US based restoration specialist will help solve identity theft issues on your behalf, guaranteed or your money back. Plus, all LifeLock plans are backed by the million dollar protection package, meaning LifeLock will reimburse you up to the limits of your plan if you lose money due to identity theft. You can't control how diligent others are with your personal information, but with Lifelock you can help protect it. Act now and save up to 40% your first year. Call 1-800-LIFELOCK and use promo code MURDER or go to lifelock.com murder for 40% off.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Terms apply a sleek professional website makes you look very put together even when you're wearing sweatpants and eating cereal out of a mug.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that's where Squarespace comes in.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Squarespace gives you everything you need to offer your services and get paid all.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In one place, from consultations to experiences. Showcase your services with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your business.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And managing those payments is a breeze. In just a few clicks, you'll be able to accept payments with options like like Klarna, Apple Pay, Afterpay, and more.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You'll get paid on time with professional on brand invoices and online payments. Plus streamline your workflow with built in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools and.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Get discovered faster with Squarespace's built in SEO tools with meta descriptions and auto generated site maps, you'll rank higher in search results globally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Go to squarespace.com murder for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use Offer Code murder to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's squarespace.com murder code murder goodbye Goodbye. Now this is the story of a cult that I had never heard of. Ooh yeah, I know you love a cult.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Really do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So maybe you know this One. But I watched the documentary about it and I was like, how have I never heard of this? It should be just as big as all the others because it's horrible. Okay. And you know, off it feels like with cults. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It can only go in one direction.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. Well, you don't hear about the good one. Are there good cults where it's like. And everything was the Catholic Church.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You heard about that a lot lately.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I wonder if there are any like positive ones. What would a positive cult be?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I just don't think it can be because it's the. Any positivity then turns in on itself because of the creeps at the top.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. If it's a positive one, it doesn't get called a cult. So we don't hear about it. Probably.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Then it's just an mlm.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. Then it's just a. A religion. Okay. So today's story is about a nefarious couple who teamed up to start a Christian cult that managed to operate for 40 years and inflict horrific abuses on its members. This is the story of the Alamo Christian Foundation. Have you heard of them? It's spelled Alamo.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I'm thinking of the rental car company. They were horrible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's not them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But they abused people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nope. They actually do have a really crazy connection to like a piece of merchandise or to like a public facing thing like the rental car thing. Okay, that's bananas.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The main source I use for this story is a docu series that Vince and I watch called Ministry of the Twisted Cult of Tony Alamo. And the rest of the sources can be found in the show notes. This is a great documentary. It has all the information. So consider this your friend telling you about the documentary and then you should go watch it. Cause I'm not gonna be able to like relay all the information and it's really fucking interesting.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I am gonna. I promise I'll listen. But I'm gonna be thinking that I've already seen this documentary because. But I feel like this story is so dense and it goes on for so long.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it does.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But is that the one I'm thinking of? Or is like. I'm like. But then there's Children of God. Like I feel like I have documentary poisoning. Essentially. Yes. Where I've seen so many where it' of closed captioning yellow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, let me tell you what they look like. Cause then maybe that'll help. It looks like Tammy Faye and then it looks like fat Elvis. Yes, but I was gonna say it's more of A Roy Orbison kind of thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you see that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Bright blonde hair. She's got the most amazing dresses, like, 70s style, but he has a very.

[Karen Kilgariff]

70S, like, man, paunchy man vibe.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Exactly. Okay. Yes, that's them. Roy Orbison, old Elvis kind of a thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Gotcha.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Exactly. This is the one. All right, so. So I'm not gonna, like, really get into the beginnings. It's the same thing you hear for, like, Manson and all of the other ones. It's like the 1960s. There's a lot of hippies going to Los Angeles trying to figure out their way, and there's a lot of people preying on them, including this cult. They pass out flyers about Jesus. They invite people to come to the church. And it turns out for these guys, they're doing the bidding for a couple, this couple, a man named Tony Alamo and a woman named Susan, who have started the Alamo Christian Foundation. So it's the same thing you've heard a million times.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, it's the same thing you dream of doing one day with your.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Money, with starting a cult or running a pension foundation. That's my dream. I have my mood board. It's like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's just so weird where it's like, you're all that work. And maybe it's just my perspective that I can't get, but it's like, you're gonna do all that work and not, like, do a show at the end. You're gonna do all that work and not. It's just purely to force people to go to church.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, well, so she is actually an incred orator, as they say. Okay, so the story is, like, almost in two parts, where she's in charge and then he's in charge. And when she's in charge, it kind of makes sense because she can stand up on the pulpit and give these incredible sermons, and she's really a show, a showman. And her daughter is in the documentary, and she's fucking the most amazing person. And you want to hang out with her so bad. And she talks about what a con woman her mother was and how good she was at it. And I think she actually was. It's very similar to, like, Jim Jones. Like, she's just really good at it. And like, the same time period where people are lost, they're looking for something new, their parents are, like, old school, and so they don't fit in there anymore, but there's nothing else for them. You know what I mean? It's like, I could totally. It's so easy, it seems.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. When you run out of the house, like at the beginning of the Pat Benatar video, Love is a battlefield, and you're like, fuck you, I'll never come back. And then you go out and then the world is horrifying and you think you can't go back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Exactly. So that's this time. It's the like. It makes sense that these people in the 60s and 70s fell for this, but the people in the 90s have no fucking excuse.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Listen, it was a very sarcastic time and there was a lot to run from.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You think they were kidding? The 90s were like, we were just being sarcastic. No, I mean a cult.

[Karen Kilgariff]

People needed to take shelter from all how toxic the culture was where they were just like, I don't know. Jesus, will you help me?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because these idols can't Anymore. Okay, so let me tell you about Susan. First of all, she looks like. Yeah, like Dolly Parton and Janice the Muppet from the Muppet Band became a person. Her name was Edith Opel Horn. She's born in Arkansas in 1925. She wants to be an actress, moves to Los angeles in the 1940s, and she gets a job as a bar girl, which I really loved this. They pay pretty young women. Bar people pay pretty young women to sit at the bar, have a drink, and then the man buys them a drink, but it's not alcohol, but they're charged for alcohol. So they just keep drinking and like making the men keep buying drinks.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that's great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So like. Yeah, they're just to keep the patrons coming and buying more drinks.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep. Makes sense, you know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So then Susan, who at this point is married, she has a daughter, as I said, her name, the daughter's name, I'm just gonna call her Chris because it's some kind of Chris Theon that I can't pronounce. And she goes by Chris. Susan meets this man named Mark Hoffman. He had been born Bernie lazer Hoff in 1934 in Missouri.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Laser.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Laser, okay. With a Z. That's kind of cool.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And he changed his name. Like, you fucking changed. You changed your name to Laser.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Your name's Bernie Lazer. You could do anything with your life.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mark was raised at Father Flanagan's Boys Town, which I'm sure was a very peaceful, calm. Yeah, Supportive.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No problems there. Nope, no sarcasm there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Everything's fine. And after growing up and moving out to California, he becomes a low level grifter and had several convictions for petty theft as well as for statutory Rape. And so this guy Mark meets Susan in the early 60s. She's 10 years older than him and kind of just a presence. Right. So he falls for her. They fall for each other. Even though Mark has no interest or knowledge of Christianity, he's like, I see what this does to people. I'm fucking all in. Like, wants to be part of the mind control thing, you know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And he sees it as a business opportunity, really. Because Susan does have this magnetism that draws people to her. She's very. It's like motherly. I don't know, there's something about it that people love. Susan and Mark divorce their spouses and they get married in Vegas in 1966. At this point, Susan's 41 and Mark is 32.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So those are kind of crucial ages to be making.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Interesting. Susan really landed a young guy. That's exciting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it's kind of like. It does seem like her little fuckboy a little bit. Cause like, he's in the background of the photos of her, like, giving these amazing sermons with all her crazy nails. And he does seem like a supportive little fuck boy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A supportive groupie.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And I'm sure she just, like, wanted it. Good for her. To a point. Good for her. To a point. So.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Good for her to appoint a good title.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So they change their name. So he changes his name to Tony and they change their last name to Alamo. So from here on out, it's Susan and Tony Alamo. The Alamos begin preaching on the streets to young people in la. They gain a ton of followers. And you're like, how did that happen? They start operating out of a house in West Hollywood on Crescent and Sunset, which.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like, that's where I get my hair done. I mean, like, I wonder which corner had a house. Cause there's green Blatts, there's Sunset 5. Mini shopping center.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Then a dining.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So I think probably behind one of.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Those places up in the hills a little bit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Kara Klink and Jared used to live right there. Yeah. There's like. There's some apartments. Buildings there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So we're. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that's right. They had that great mid century apartment. Damn, that's nice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. I bet it's like right around there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is not. This is not relevant at all.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's not. But like you. It's like relevant for five people and you're one of them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And we're in a. This is your. Our podcast.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'll text care after this. Guess what?

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, so I just Love, shit like that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, that's the fun of like, it's like hometown true crime. Because it's like this actually happened here. We're not talking about some faraway place in the place where you can't convince someone to give you one doll if you were short on gas. Somehow these people came in and started changing hearts and minds on Sunset.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it's a happening time. I mean, Sunset was crawling and they're just like, come a couple blocks away and we have this apartment where you can. Or a house, whatever, you can hang out with us. And because of that, very quickly the city of West Hollywood takes issue with the over occupancy of the house. Because guess by 1970 it's a three bedroom house. Guess how many people in 1970 at this point are living there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

10.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But it's over. They're bad. Because it's over occupancy. You're going with 10?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, three to a bedroom, five to a bedroom. 15.

[Georgia Hardstark]

200. No, it's probably like people going in and out. You know, it's like not everyone living up at the same time. But 200, how?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's so gross.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so gross.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's like two old spinster sisters that live next door with like, another one's coming in. They don't have shoes on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They've got their pet lizard. I'm thinking of the Simpsons, the sisters from the Sisters.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Another one's coming in.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So like, that alone would make me be like, no, thank you to this cult. You know what I mean? You don't have a clean bathroom? No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Come on, where's the spaghetti dinner? I don't want to just hang out in a hot apartment.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. So they are like, shit, we need to move. So by the early 70s, they wind up buying a compound out in the desert. Yes, very much like the Manson family. In fact, it's not far from there. It's in a cult hotspot called Saugus, California. You know Saugus, Saugus, just down the road from the Manson family. So they could like high five on their way to being terrible.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, what a weird time. We think we live in a weird time. But like, truly, like all of culture just ripped in half. And then it was like, take these drugs and walk over there and see what happens.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No one had ever lived that way. Like by the 90s, it was like people had experimented and lived that way and been through shit. But that, like 1960s on. No, you. You couldn't go on an airplane without Being in a suit. You know what I mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's no alternative. There's no counterculture. So it had to be mind blowing to see that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So counter. And so, like, the way my mom used to be about, like, you're not wearing those jeans to the dentist and it's even your mom you're talking about. And it's like, can you imagine what those poor people who, like, grew up in the Great Depression, they finally make money, they give the money to their kids and their kids are like, hey, man, yeah, bye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally. Or like, you don't understand me. Goodbye. Yeah, yeah. And I wanna do drugs, too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I wanna do drugs and I wanna join whatever religion anyone offers me on Sunset Boulevard.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally. And I believe it. I believe these people who like the trust then was much more trusting.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And you know the thing we've learned about the effervescence of being at a. At a, say, a music show with a bunch of people and you're like an experience. They were having that like, with religion where it's like a change.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And the way you talk, you've talked about sociopaths being, like, commanding and you just want to follow them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You've got to be a sociopath to be a fucking cult leader. We know that. Right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. If not full psychopath.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You have to say that like, I'm talking to God directly. And then God wanted me to tell you what to say.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, come on, dude, I can't even answer emails. I'm talking to God on the daily to tell you what to do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's a lot of pressure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Come on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's a lot of. Okay, so. But they're into it. And so it's all the normal cult stuff that I won't get into. But you can watch in the documentary where they give them the hippies, give them the money, but they're also like, it's hippies. They don't have a lot of money. But secretly there are a lot of hippies probably who have trust funds and shit. So it works.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There was some famous actresses who was its daughter that, like, she pulled out of the Manson. It.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Murder, she Wrote. I think her daughter, Angela Lance's daughter was like almost a Manson near. And then she got yanked like a.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Musketeer or a mouse. What's the mouse?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Mouseketeer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mouseketeer. Yeah. She got yoinked. Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then her mom was like, absolutely. That's how you use that credit card. You will not be buying things for Charles Manson.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So. So they give them all their Paychecks. At this point, the religion has achieved tax exempt status because they're a religious institution.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's the dream.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yep. But conditions at this desert compound, guess how they are. They're horrific.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Disgusting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They're disgusting. There's many members that have babies and small children because they do this really smart thing where they open. They are open to single mothers. And they're like, we accept you. We won't judge you. Come and like, this is a community that can take care of your children. Because that was so taboo at the time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

However, they have no access to disposable diapers, but they also have no access to water to wash the cloth diapers. And people are sleeping about 125 in a room, you know, and I'm sure the rooms weren't very insulated or nice to begin with. There's no access pretty much to shower facilities. But meanwhile, Susan and Toni, guess what? They live in a nice house and they're like going to Saks Fifth Avenue buying expensive clothes. Just they're living their good life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. She comes by and she's like, look, I bought a silk scarf if anybody wants to borrow it for your baby, please. In a pit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, God. But it's not just financial abuse taking place. And this is where we. It starts to get dark. Susan starts preaching to parents that their children will go to hell if they do not punish them for real or imagined offenses. And the beatings begin. And this becomes a key component of the church that will endure for decades before they're finally stopped. So at this point in the mid-1970s, Susan's daughter Chris, who has children of her own, she even, she is like, this is fucked up, and leaves, like has to run and leave. So that's how bad it is. Like if your daughter who's been with you for your entire life is just suddenly like, oops, this is too much for me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, she's been born into the cult.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And she leaves and she does that amazing where you don't try to sugarcoat or make your parents sins seem reasonable. This woman is incredible. She's very much just like these fucking nuts. Yeah, Very good. So they also though, like Susan and Tony are these larger than life, you know, Elvis and Dolly Parton looking characters. And she again, is really good. So they have a weekly syndicated religious TV show. They even, they even perform or like they even do a sermon at the Grand Ole Opry. Like you and I did that one time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Remember?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I bet our sermons were very similar.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They were very similar. So they're like mainstream. And it gives them credit. And it kind of has like a musical variety show vibe and a lot of sequence, a lot of, you know, emphasis on the Bible. Just like that crazy 70s. Tammy Faye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Then this attracts new members because people think it's respectable. They have TV time, they have a real show. By 1975, the California authorities are like, hey, something's not right here. I don't think the workers are being paid. So Susan and Tony do the smart thing and get the fuck out of California and go to a place that's a little more chill about it. Arkansas. That's another thing for me. When they're like, let's get out of California. I'd be like, I'm staying my cult. Yeah, my cult status really depends on location for sure. You know, beach access.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, well, yeah, because I feel like it's the old 30 rock. Don't move to a second location idea where it's like, once you're going to a second location, what are you gonna do? Bunker.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're gonna start talking about the end of the world. You're gonna start talking about, like, doubling and tripling down on your dedication.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And you're isolated, so there's no. Like, if you leave the compound. Compound, you can. You're in Los Angeles. You can go wherever. Yeah, there's. There's like, services. Suddenly you're in Arkansas and they don't give a. And you don't know anyone there. Yeah. So it's kind of perfect. They choose a location near the Texas, Oklahoma border and they buy a compound. Of course, they love compound. And they also run several businesses in town, including a grocery store, a gas station, a restaurant. They kind of take over this small town. They infiltrate them, as you would say. And the location is right off the highway. So they actually get a lot of business and they actually do really well. But it's more of a front because, like, this business gives this business the money to open the. You know, it's to hide the money.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And because of the TV show and Tony has some connections in the music industry, they also start getting big name performers to play at the restaurant bar, including Dolly Parton, Tammy Wynette and Roy Orbison. So all of those people come and perform there. And Bill Clinton even stops by. He's the Attorney general at the time. And he and Hillary go on a date to this place. And Bill Clinton says something about how Tony Alamo is Roy Orbison on speed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So, you know, he's not hiding it. Well, I don't think. But of course, all the businesses are staffed by members of the church who sign their paycheck over to Susan and Tony. So. So at this point, Susan had been using cancer as a tactic. And the fact that she had been cured of cancer by God to get people to believe that she was blessed or something, that wasn't true at all.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She never had cancer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She never had cancer. And then she got cancer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In 1975, she's diagnosed with breast cancer. And she dies at the age of 56 in 1982. Dies from breast cancer. So suddenly it's over. And it's also a thing of, like. But people thought she was blessed. And so her dying of cancer actually makes the whole religion look really bad.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know what I mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because she had been claiming that, like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The Lord had saved her, and then it didn't work. But then Tony just does this thing where he yells at the members and is like, it's cause you didn't pray hard enough. Right. Ooh. Like, that's just.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's when I'd be out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's the one for you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm saying I liked all this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I prayed hard.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You started blaming me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. So, Tony, now this is the, like, second chapter of this cult. And it gets really fucking dark. Warning. The content going on here is child sexual abuse, child rape, child abuse. So it gets culty and dark. Tony's now 48, and he. Everyone's like, it's gonna fall apart now. Because the person who was good at getting people to join and keeping them is dead. But he takes over as the sole leader of the Alamo Christian Foundation.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So Tony, like, kind of doesn't know what to do at first. And so he stalls for time by not burying Susan's body. Instead, he has her embalmed and brought to the compound's main house. And the members of the church are to pray over her open casket 24 hours a day, asking God to raise her from the dead. Like, they think that's what's gonna happen. This goes on for six months.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Her body sits there for six months.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's just such a tall order. Why would you not come back? Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's like, can I get a nap?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's your first move after the woman who was making it all happen dies. You're the dark horse that no one actually believes in. And you're going to walk right up and be like, like, we're going to win the World Series. Like, what are you doing?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right, Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did he do it? Is that what you're about to tell me?

[Georgia Hardstark]

And so he did.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And so he did.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hey, Karen, I want you to picture yourself going for a drive. What comes to mind?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not ever being able to merge on any freeway in Los Angeles. And potholes and crying.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah. Well, the truth is the road can feel like it's out to get you at every turn. But Karen, it doesn't have to be this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because Hyundai's available advanced safety technology is designed to help keep you protected from all of life's twists and turns.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Their vehicles offer available features designed to help safeguard you and your loved ones.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You can change lanes with confidence thanks to the available Blind Spot View monitor, which actually shows you a live video feed of your blind spots.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The standard forward collision avoidance assist can help prevent or mitigate accidents by alerting you of imminent collision. Oh my God. This happens to me all the time. And automatically applying the brakes if you don't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is needed. Hyundai vehicles are equipped with the standard drive driver attention warning system, which constantly monitors your attention levels. Oh my God. Once detected, it sounds alerts and visual cues to help bring your focus back to the road.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, get this for me right now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

With available class exclusive safety features, Hyundai helps to keep you safe so you can enjoy the drive.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Learn more about Hyundai@Hyundai USA.com or call 562-314-4603 for complete details.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sales that's H Y U N D A I u s a.com or call 562-314-4603. Goodbye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's something about spring that makes you want to refresh your whole life.

[Georgia Hardstark]

New routines, new goals. And definitely a new closet full of clothes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Luckily, Quince makes your spring refresh easy. With their elevated basics, Quince has the.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Clothes you'll want to wear all season long.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You can grab 100 European linen shorts and dresses. Start starting at $30 plus luxe swimwear and Italian leather platform sandals.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Everything is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. Because Quince works directly with top factories, they cut out the middleman and pass the savings on to you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Quint only partners with factories that uphold safe, ethical manufacturing practices and use premium fabrics and finishes. I'm going to have to put away all my beautiful Quint sweaters. And as I put those sweaters away, now I'm looking at beautiful sandals on their website, the Italian Leather Premium Sandal. It's so beautiful.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Perfect for spring hot weather.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cloth clothes, come on. Some short sleeve shirts. Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Treat your closet to a little summer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Glow up with quints go to quinte.com mfm for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com mfm to get free shipping and 365 day returns.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Quince.com mfm Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Spring is in the air. And that means open windows, outdoor plans, and more time away from home. All the things that burglars love.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, bad news, burglars. Now you can protect your home with Simplisafe.

[Georgia Hardstark]

With Simplisafe, millions of Americans enjoy greater security and peace of mind every time they arm their system.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Traditional security systems only take action after somebody has already broken in. That's too late.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But with active guard outdoor protection, Simplisafe's monitoring agents closely watch your property and stop crimes before they happen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The cameras use advanced AI to distinguish between friendly faces like family and neighbors and potential threats. Threats alerting agents to suspicious individuals before they get close to your home.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So I get that ping on my phone, on my app that tells me when there's someone like, on my lawn, I'm such an old lady or like, you know, walking up my driveway because I live up off the street and you shouldn't be there if you're not meant to be there. So, like, if I get the ping that someone's on my lawn and I'm like, I know something's up and I can check it before they even get to the door or break in, in the window, it's great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Visit simplisafe.com fave to claim 50% off a new system with a professional monitor monitoring plan and get your first month free.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's simplisafe.com fav.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's no safe like SimpliSafe. Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

After six months, her body is breaking down and the numbers are like, hey, Tony, we hate to, like, we hate to like, question you, but.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But her nose just fell off, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

So.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, God, it's a dead body.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know, I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's horrible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And people are praying over it 24 hours a day. And it's their fault that it didn't happen. Not that God doesn't exist or that she's not blessed or whatever. So he builds her a heart shaped mausoleum on the compound property.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. A little more responsible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And then at the same time, things are dicey on the business end. Three weeks after Susan's death, a lawsuit against the foundation by the Department of Labor goes to trial. Basically, you know, they're like, you're not paying your employees and they deter. The district court determines that the foundation OWES Its worker $19 million in back wages and overtime. In 1970s money. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do we know how much it would be in today's money?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, Ali didn't. Let me know. But wait, wait. I do. Yes, I do. Yes, I do. Yes, I do. Allie, let me know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What a turn.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ali Elkin, I just threw you under the bus. Even though there was no bus. 19 million in back wages and overtime. And then in 80s money is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, you said 19 million.

[Georgia Hardstark]

19 million. And it's like. It's like, you know, late 70s, early 80s, more mid 80s, I think at this point.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I never get these right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, no. Early 80s, early 80s. 82. Like, that's gonna fucking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know. Early 80s, early 80 s. 19 million. Is it? 50 million.

[Georgia Hardstark]

63. That's not. But you're in the ballpark.

[Karen Kilgariff]

At least. I'm in the ballpark.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know what mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I. I mean, but remember the other day when you got it right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I got it right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

8 million.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Tony appeals the case, blah, blah, blah. The IRS comes around, and they're like, what? This isn't right. And so.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So much money.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If the IRS is like, this looks excessive.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Then you're something. You're not doing it right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Something terrible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This looks excessive. Yeah. So after burying Susan, Tony is in and out of town. He goes back to LA a lot. He basically marries a woman named Brigitte who owns a, like, clothing shop in Los Angeles. He kind of does a number on her. It seems she's, like, from Sweden, and she falls in love with, you know, the rich, Christian, televangelist type of guy. Whatever, Whatever. But she is brought back to the compound. Everyone's like, she looks exactly like Susan. They think that he maybe was using her to, like, pretend that Susan came back. But she's a fucking Swedish accent. It's not her. Oh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So they. I mean, that makes a lot of sense. Cause it's like in the middle of all this, the psychopath falls in love, and it's like, oh, no. It's just one more tool in his tool belt.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She looks like her, and she does. She is an atheist, but that doesn't stop her from moving to the compound with him. And, yeah, she's not good at being a preacher like Susan was, but she is a good businesswoman, and she's into clothing. And so. So she. So she winds up setting Tony on the course for the foundation's most famous business venture in 1984. Okay, do you remember, like, picture Mike Tyson in the jean jacket? With, like, rhinestones and like a spray painted, like, Tasmanian Devil. That had been fucking bedazzled.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And those were like the big Jack. The big Jean jackets. Those were a hit back then, right? Yes, they were like. They were a big part of it. Or they have the Hollywood, like, spray painted Hollywood sign. Sign. Or the Las Vegas. And then they were all bedazzled and shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's this fucking cult. They fucking made these and they got fucking famous.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What was the name of that brand?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was called Tony Alamo of Nashville is the name of the business venture.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Classic psychopath move. Put your whole name there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, totally. Like, Alamo sounds better, but. No, you won't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Never. Tony Alamo. It's like Giorgio Armani, Beverly Hills or whatever.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Exactly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And like 1990.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is the 80s. No. In 84. 84, they start selling these denim jackets, airbrushed. That's what it is. Hand bedazzled with rhinestones. And they become wildly popular. They're sold in high end department stores and boutiques. And the brand is Alamo Clothing Brand. They have a flagship store in Nashville.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They make customized jackets for, like, Dolly Parton, Mr. T, Brooke Shields. Michael Jackson gets a leather version and wears it on the COVID of Bad. That's. Next time you see the COVID of Bad. That's a cult jacket.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So it gets.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is the last thing this cult needed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Going viral.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, exactly. Just a huge influx of cash.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right, right. And legitimacy again. So here's the thing about the jackets, though. Like every other Alama venture, they're being made with unpaid labor of the members. And in this case, it's almost all being done by the children of the foundation. Because they've got those little fingers that can pick up those little fucking rhinestones.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And glue them on. Yes. The kids living on the Arkansas compound, they're bused to a facility each night where they hand bedazzle and hand airbrush.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Every jacket each night.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In secret.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And hand. It's like they can say they're handmade, 100% handmade. But they don't tell you how little those hands are. So there's little fingers going around. The jackets sell for around $600 each, which in today's money, 2,500. 1500. More than 1,500 in today's money. So 1500 for a fucking jean jacket?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Insane.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Of course, those child workers are never paid. And the Department of Labor is very suspicious. But they can't prove anything. The IRS ultimately revokes the foundation's tax exempt status. And Tony, who'd been spending lavishly this whole time, doesn't have the resources to pay those back taxes. Cause you have to pay them. And so Tony, it almost seems like at this point people are after him, but he's got this like things are feeding his ego still. He becomes this like megalomaniac and he spirals deeper and deeper. And with that comes more violence against his followers. And then also he divorces. Is the lookalike Ragita. Ragita goes hopefully home to LA and lives a great life. Who knows?

[Karen Kilgariff]

But she's the reason those jackets worked.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hopefully she got a. She's in the documentary and she looks like she's in a lavish spot. So hopefully she got a cut in the divorce.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All green screen.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, she's actually where.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's wearing just a green cloth from here down.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So beatings and abuse are actually kind of normal already in the foundation. It's happened since the beginning. But in this period, the late 80s after Susan's death, things get way worse. And this, it's just awful. Children are subjected to intense beating at Tony's direction. Tony threatens that if parents or other adults in the cult don't beat their children as punishment for real or imagined misbehavior, he'll beat the parents instead. But you know, over and over these ex members say, we really believe that he was the Messiah. Like we 100% believed that he was basically God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because, you know, the Messiah, when he comes back to the earth, is immediately gonna start making jean jackets with bedazzle or bedazzled decorations on the back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And definitely when Jesus comes back, he's going to make a paddle that has holes in it for you and your followers to beat children with.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's a thing, there's a trend on TikTok right now, and it's people with their little kids, like 4 and 5 years old, and they go finish this phrase. We're gonna play a game.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I brought you into this world because I love you. And you're just like, oh, it's just.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like girls should be fun loved. Like, it's like we just had it hard.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's bad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When I read that my mom used to spank us. And when it was bad, it was the wooden spoon. Which I just like, I'm traumatized from that. I can't use a wooden spoon. And when you were really bad. So my brother got it a lot, but I got it a few times too. The wooden spoon with the cutouts in it, holes in It. Oh, yeah, because the wind. There was something about the, like, force of it that was different and it hurt worse. Yeah. The wooden spoon with the holes was. You did something really fucking bad. The regular wooden spoon. Yeah. It was not. It's not good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's awful. I'm sorry. The only reason I didn't ever get that and I was prime candidate is because both my parents had such bad. I mean, my dad had great parents, but I think they got smacked around. My mom definitely did. So that was their rule to each other.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Stop with me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We don't hit little kids.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't hit children. You don't use violence to try to fucking parent children.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so obvious. It's so obvious. But it really wasn't back then until. And then there was one day when I was 17 and I was so awful obnoxious. And my mom tried to spank me. Cause she had just bought me all these clothes. And I, like, tried them on and left them on. And she was like, pick those clothes up. And I was like, I'm leaving. And then she grabbed my arm and was walking around to smack my butt. And I just was going, what are you doing? Stop it. And just like, oh, my God, what are you doing? And I was like, later on. Only later on did I realize, like, you just didn't realize how good you had it. You didn't realize what those people were fucking doing for you every day.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You can't start at 17, though, so you can't start smacking your child. At 17, I was already smoking clothes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I was headed for juvie.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's too late. They are who they are at that point. And it's kind of your fault.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's fully your fault, Baron.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And the parents also say that they believe that beatings were gonna save their children from going to hell. Cause remember, hell was a big part of this. Hell's a big part of Christianity, it turns out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. On Earth.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So they actually think, you know, who knows how much? But they convince themselves that they're helping their children to not go to hell. And that paddle that he uses with the holes drilled into it, he nicknamed Tony. Nicknames the Board of education.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Boo. Not funny.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Real clever.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Go to hell.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Beatings are so severe that children lose consciousness. So in the late 80s, a man named Cary Miller leaves the cult with his brother. But the wives are like, we're not leaving and keep the children. And this guy's. In the documentary prominently. They wind up going, basically, they get a court order to get the kids out. And so the kids are freed. But the whole story gets a fair amount of media attention because Carrie Miller's son gets beaten severely. And that gets out in the media. And so it becomes a big public story. And I think at the time, too, there's like, the satanic panic. There's some, you know, like, there's some backlash from Manson and Jonestown. And so people are like, scrutinizing cults a little more maybe.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And probably. I think child abuse as a concept was really coming to the fore. There was that episode of different strokes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

100%.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was like this thing of, like, we all have to really reckon with this problem.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's up to us. It's not a secret if you don't let it be. That's how it survives. Yeah. So at this point, Tony in 1988, he's just like, fuck it, and goes on the run. But he's able to control the cult still remotely over the phone. He sends orders back to the compound in Arkansas. He doesn't show up for a civil case in Arkansas. And the court decides against him. And at this point, the FBI raids the Arkansas property.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

To use assets. No, not. Thank God. Not yet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And so basically everyone abandons the compound before they can get there. And also. So no one's there and no one gets caught. But it turns out that he also has someone break into the mausoleum where Susan is buried and steal the cow. Cause they think, like, they're gonna. I don't know. I don't know. They take the casket with them. Cause they're like, we need to keep her body safe.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is this gross of me to say? That's kind of romantic. At least he meant it that he really was into her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It almost is. Like they. From the way they talk about it, it sounds like he did believe that she was, you know, Holy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And so if they left her holy body there, you know, the government would get it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And this is a time, too. And I don't think people understand this when, like, the government and religion weren't best friends and in line, they were actually against each other.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They were very far apart.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. Remember that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So extremist religions weren't. Didn't have the ear of the president and the government at the time. They were actually against each other. Yes. So I know it sounds like nowadays we know that they're. Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So they were scared of them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And they were scared of taking this holy woman's body in their mind.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There had to be some white powder Going on for Tony.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You can't make all that money off of Tony Alamo of Beverly Hills or whatever bullshit jacket in the 80s and not be like, I'm sure he was living large in every way possible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Line him up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Literally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So the paranoia of we need to get her body out of there actually makes total sense.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And also that's always part of the decline of cult is like the psychopath that's in charge is like. And you said megalomania. Yeah, it's just like ingest all of it. Keep on. Keep the believing going.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Right. So now they. Everyone's scattered. They're still members, though. They still believe in him. And they're still.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's hard to change.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. It. It's hard to, like, give up on a thing that you've devoted so much of your life to and believed in.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You went all in on it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All in. And to say no now is. Yeah. To admit you're a fucking idiot. Tony gives orders to the church over the phone. No one knows where he is. The IRS winds up seizing all of Tony's assets, including that store in Nashville where the jackets are made. And then while he's on the run, he's quoted in a newspaper. Cuz of course he always calls the press to tell them how misaligned and how fucked up everyone's against him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And during one of those calls, he basically threatens an Arkansas jail judge, which you can't do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, that's not allowed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You cannot do that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Don't do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This prompts the U.S. marshal to issue a major manhunt to track him down. So you with the wrong, I don't know department.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So in 1991, federal agents examine the phone records. Basically, they track him down with phone calls from cell phone towers all the way back in 91.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which is, like, surprising. They find him in Tampa, Florida, and long story short, they eventually hit on a particular address. Stake out the house, see Tony come out to pick up his morning newspaper, and they raid the house. They find Tony sitting at the table in sunglasses and a tie dye shirt. And there's a photo of him, like, being. Or the video of him being let out in his, like, tie dye. Looks very like. Yeah, it's like it's. It's old Elvis for sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. But in a tie dye. So it's confusing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's a good cover.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. Yeah. Stacks of cash all over the table. But no Susan's body. Oh, it's not there. They don't know where it is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Tony's charged with child abuse in California for the beatings. Also charged with federal tax evasion. Essentially the tax evasion. This is, like, so horrible and wrong, but, like, that is easier to try and actually get a conviction for than child abuse. So they're like, let's get him in, like, locked up now on that, and we can worry about the child abuse stuff later.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right, that's the. Well, it's not comparatively directly, but that's the old, I think. Right. Al Capone, how they got exactly that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Things you can actually prove.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right, Right. So he goes to prison. He gets six years, I think, in prison. And the cult doesn't disband. They take orders from him, from prison. He's somehow allowed to use the phone. And they record sermons and they play them for all the members, and people come to see him and they move into the town. They move into the town near the prison so they can be ready when he gets out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Whoa.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Off the compound and to the prison.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. And so through the early 90s, new members continue to join, new members continue to join. And during this time, when he's in prison in the early 90s, he starts to drop little hints that it's okay for a man to have multiple wives. Oh, there we go.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Where to get that idea?

[Georgia Hardstark]

The Bible.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't you know, it's a baby. And little by little, his members start to accept this. He decrees that he's entitled to have multiple wives.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If you say child brides, I'm going to get up and walk out of this podcast studio.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Kid brides. So I don't want. I don't want you to walk up and leave. Get up and leave.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I have to say.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But you have to say child brides. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Does he really say that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. Right before I did see this documentary. Yeah. He starts to introduce teenage girls from the cult as his wives and then goes on to say, like, you know, once they hit puberty, the Bible says they can be wives, that kind of thing. So, yeah, so puberty.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Don't go younger than that, please.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So, yeah, so he recruits teenage girls to work at his house while he's in prison, which basically means marrying Tony. You know, they do the, like, fake ceremony. You're married, it's sexual assault. And then. But the parents, those kids have been raised in the cult, and their parents consider it an honor and they're excited about them marrying their daughters or young daughters marrying Tony. The victims at this point, most of them who were born in the 90s were born into this Cult. So that's all they know. And so they think it's okay, or they think they have to think they're going to hell if they don't. They visit him in prison and bring photos of the children that are still in the church so he can select other victims. Like, he just becomes this monster. Monster. And a groomer and a fucking child abuser. In 1998, now in his 60s, Tony's released from prison. As a requirement of his release, he has to return Susan's body. It has to happen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And so he denies ever having it. But right when he is released, the casket is anonymously delivered to an Arkansas funeral home. Where was it? We don't know where it was.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, doesn't it only mean something to him? Are they saying, like, you just can't have this dead body?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, desecration of a corpse. And then meanwhile, her daughter and her family are like, we want to be able to bury. You know, it's like, you can't. You can't fucking do that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That makes sense.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So once Tony's out of prison, he continues to, quote, marry girls from the church and of course, rape and sexually abuse them. Also physically and verbally abuses them. He does this with 24 girls that become his wife. This is just like. And it's part of the documentary, and she's in it, and she's so strong and so admirable. The youngest one is eight years old.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, man.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I mean, these women who are in the documentary and end up testifying against him are so freaking strong and incredible. They were raised with this mindset. They didn't join the cult themselves when they were lost teenagers, it was the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Only world they knew.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And their parents were telling them that they were go to house if you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Know, or that it was this honor, this. We've been picked. And it's so special.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally. Exactly. So nine of the 24 girls are under 18 years old. He continues to use the Bible to justify this. And they're all kept isolated in Tony's home. It's the thing you always hear about. But concerned ex members start to make complaints to the FBI about the abuse. But in order to prove the case, the FBI needs at least one of the current victims to come forward, which is, of course, terrifying to them. A lot of their families are still in the cult.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In 2006, a woman named Amy Eddy, who's in the documentary, who's 22 and was first married to Tony. At 14, she escapes and flees to Oklahoma. The whole time she believes that God is gonna strike her down for leaving him and send her to hell. And then a 15 year old named Desiree Colbeck escapes as well. She gets help from her aunt to leave cause her mom also was still in the cult. So she being 15 years old and being like, I need to escape this abuse. Like, what pushes you to that level?

[Karen Kilgariff]

What horrors have you seen?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Exactly. And like, it's better for me, for God to like smite me than for me to keep saying like, how to care anymore. Right. And Desiree had been the 8 year old victim who was now 15. Both women are approached by the FBI. Initially, Amy is too scared. But Desiree, she is terrified too. But she agrees to testify against Tony because her sister, her little sister is still in the cult. And she's like, I need to save her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She testifies that Tony took photos of his victims, of course, many whom were underage, and also took the girls across state lines. So like, that's enough. Because those are federal crimes. So they're able to create a strong federal case against Tony. Finally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. So finally, in 2008, federal agents raid Tony's house in. It's called Falk, Arkansas.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fawk.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, exactly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's pronounced Faw Falk.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Tony's not there. He knew the rape was gonna happen, blah, blah, blah. They don't find the photos Desiree had been talking about, but they find other incriminating things, like a lot of wedding rings and like boxes of ovulation tests. Just like creepy as shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Gross. And also just a sign that like we're now at the end of the line with this cult leader. It's like this is the usual wind out where it always goes to child brides. It always goes to, yeah, he did it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He did what?

[Karen Kilgariff]

He did the whole thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He did the whole dead body. Yeah, exactly. So he's 74 at this point and gross. Honestly, lifelong. Yeah. And so he has a secret cell phone. Now again, FBI, Basically, they find him at a hotel in Flagstaff, Arizona. He's indicted on 10 counts of interstate transportation of a mile for sex. And in addition to Desiree, Amy does get over her fear and ultimately testifies against him, as do three other so called wives. By the time the case goes to trial, at least 30 people are willing to testify against him. So finally, like, let's end this. And many of the witnesses still have family in the cult, but they're just. They now know what's actually going on or, you know, so. Yeah, so Tony is found guilty on all counts in 2009, and sentenced to the rest of his life in federal prison. He also loses a civil case against his victims and is ordered to pay more than $1.1 billion to them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Tony dies in prison in 2017. But the church isn't completely defunct. Despite all of that, it still has some locations, and they continue to recruit new members. As recently as 2018, there was a chapter in New York City.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, wow. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What do you need?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's crazy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Therapy. And unfortunately, as recently as 2018, when everything had come out about the foundation, those now vintage Alamo jean jackets have a resurgence among celebrities. So I'm not gonna say who they are, because maybe they don't know about the abuse.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. It might not be because it's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. It's just like, an 80s thing, and they don't know the background, so I won't say, but one recently sold for $950 on Etsy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, to me, that makes me think of, like, the John Wayne Gacy painting selling.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Exactly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There are those people that are like, can you believe I'm doing this? It's so taboo.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally. Totally. And that is the story of the Alamo Christian Foundation. Oh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The documentary, again, is called Ministry of the Twisted Cult of Tony Alamo. We binged it. I mean, Jesus fucking Christ.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Unbelievable. It just wouldn't end.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. Like, pick a. Pick a. Pick a. Like, this is as far as I. Go and write it in your diary.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Me playing a psychopath. No, I will not. I will. Not only that, I'll succeed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, the members, though. I don't mean the head.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. But once you're in. I mean, like, that's that thing where, like, people have to be deprogrammed to get out of culture.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And the deprogramming. Like, there's actually a guy who becomes a deprogrammer in that time period. And the tactics they use are, like, fucking horrible. Like, oh, they kidnap people. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's bad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's not any better.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Everything is so bad. Everything been so bad for. So bad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Everyone's like, this is the worst time in history. And it's like, no, history is the worst time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's been pretty bad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's been bad for a lot of people for a long time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Speaking of which, should I just save my story for the next episode?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because that was a lot, and that was plenty and great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know. I'm sorry that was so long. But, yeah. Do you want to do a solo next week?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I liked it. Absolutely.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hell, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Our homework's done.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We love that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you for joining our cult. It's funny that we. We did a. Oh, my God. I didn't even realize. We did a pitch to join our cult. Yes, the fan cult. And then I did a cult story. And we've just talked shit on cults the whole time. But I mean, come on, this is a fun cult.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did the Alamo Cult have ad free podcast episodes? I don't think so, ladies and gentlemen.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, they didn't. Did you get a discount on merch? Did you get first access to live show tickets from the Alamos? No. No Italian hand gesture?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No good or bad Italian hand gesture. Well, we'll meet you next time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Thank you guys for listening to that long ass story of horrible things. We appreciate you so much.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We love you dearly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Stay sexy and don't get murdered. Goodbye, Elvis. Do you want a cookie?

[Karen Kilgariff]

This has been an exactly right production.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Our senior producers are Alejandra Keck and Molly Smith.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This episode was mixed by Liana Squillace.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our Researchers are Maren McGlashan and Ali Elkin.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Email your hometowns to my favorite murdermail.com.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Follow the show on Instagram at my favorite murder.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Listen to my favorite murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And now you can watch us on exactly right's YouTube page while you're there, please like and subscribe. Goodbye.

[Gemma Spag]

Our 20s are often seen as this golden decade. Our time to be carefree, make mistakes and figure out our lives. But what can psychology teach us about this time? I'm Gemma Spag, the host of the psychology of your twenties. Each week we take a deep dive into a unique aspect of our 20s, from career anxiety, mental health, heartbreak, money, and much more. To explore the science behind our experiences. The psychology of your twenties, hosted by me, Gemma Speg. Listen now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Something unexpected happened after Jeremy Scott confessed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

To killing Michelle Scoffer in Bone Valley season one. Every time I hear about my dad is, oh, he's a killer. He's just straight evil.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I was becoming the bridge between Jeremy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Scott and the son he'd never known. At the end of the day, I'm literally a son of a killer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Listen to new episodes of bone Valley Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Kristen Davis]

Hi, I'm Kristen Davis, host of the podcast are you a shark? Sarah Jessica Parker is here and she is sharing stories from the very beginning. Like the time she forgot we filmed the pilot episode.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I remember some things about shooting the pilot. Right.

[Kristen Davis]

I have some memories I can fill in.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then you're going to fill me in.

[Kristen Davis]

Yes, but then you forgot about it in the very long time they took about it. Listen to Are you a Charlotte on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.