487 - As Will Mine Be

Summary

Episode Summary: My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark – Episode 487: As Will Mine Be

Release Date: July 3, 2025
Network: Exactly Right and iHeartPodcasts
Hosts: Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Episode Title: As Will Mine Be

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Introduction

In episode 487 of My Favorite Murder, Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark delve into the riveting true crime story of Richard Worshi Jr., infamously known as "White Boy Rick." This episode intertwines historical crime narratives with personal anecdotes, showcasing the hosts' signature blend of humor and in-depth analysis.

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Main Story: The Rise and Fall of White Boy Rick

Background and Early Life

The episode begins with Karen and Georgia setting the scene in 1980s Detroit, a city grappling with the crack cocaine epidemic and political corruption. They introduce Richard Worshi Jr., a 17-year-old white teenager who becomes entangled in the city's drug trade.

Karen Kilgariff [21:20]: "So the question ultimately becomes who is this kid that the no Crack Crew want to find out about? And the answer's pretty easy to find. Rick is not exactly subtle about his involvement in the drug trade."

Engagement with Law Enforcement

Richard's father, Richard Sr., inadvertently pulls his son into the world of informants when local law enforcement seeks information on high-level drug dealers. Richard Jr. becomes an informant for the FBI, providing valuable intelligence that leads to significant drug busts.

Georgia Hardstark [27:03]: "So the question ultimately becomes who is this kid that the no Crack Crew want to find out about? And the answer's pretty easy to find."

However, the relationship between Richard Jr. and law enforcement is fraught with exploitation and questionable ethics. Despite his role as an informant, Richard Jr. finds himself increasingly involved in criminal activities, ultimately leading to his conviction for drug-related offenses.

Karen Kilgariff [28:09]: "And it's like, this was exactly the same information that Rick's been giving us all along. But instead of them taking people down the chain, they're making him a target."

Legal Battles and Incarceration

At 18, Richard Jr. is sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole—a harsh outcome influenced by the mandatory minimum sentencing laws of the time. The hosts discuss the broader implications of such policies, highlighting the systemic issues within the War on Drugs.

Georgia Hardstark [29:34]: "But Richard remains in prison, and this is where Evan Hughes finds him and is like, this is fucked up. Let's look into this and does this amazing investigative reporting on this."

Public Awareness and Release

Years of investigative journalism and media attention, including articles by Evan Hughes and the release of the documentary White Boy Rick, shed light on Richard Jr.'s plight. In 2017, after nearly three decades behind bars, he is finally paroled. Post-release, Richard Sr. continues to battle the legal system but ultimately finds some measure of freedom.

Karen Kilgariff [50:28]: "He uses proceeds from his business to help people who have been incarcerated or who have been saddled with excessive court fees and fines to get back on their feet."

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Additional Segments

Exactly Right Podcast Network Highlights [14:54]

Karen and Georgia take a moment to spotlight other podcasts within the Exactly Right network, including:

• Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes
• That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast
• This Podcast Will Kill You
• Bananas

They also mention their animated series, MFM Animated, highlighting the creative contributions of artists like Nick Terry.

Georgia Hardstark [07:10]: "There she is. Do you see these?"

Merchandise Promotion [16:36]

The hosts showcase new merchandise designs, including their SSDGM moth design by Sammy Rich, available in various apparel and tote bags.

Karen Kilgariff [16:15]: "Show them the arms so they know that it's not. Yeah, yeah, there we go."

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Historical Deep Dive: Titanic Survivor Violet Jessup

Transitioning from contemporary true crime, Karen and Georgia embark on a historical narrative recounting the life of Violet Jessup, a stewardess who survived multiple maritime disasters, including the Titanic.

Violet's Early Life and Career

Born in 1887 in Argentina, Violet Jessup faces early childhood hardships, including family tragedies and personal health battles. Her resilience leads her to a career as a stewardess, where she endures the sinking of the Titanic.

Georgia Hardstark [57:58]: "She had no love for, but I needed the work girl."

Survival and Later Life

Violet's survival stories, including her miraculous escape from the Britannic, are recounted with emotional depth and dramatic flair. The hosts highlight her unwavering spirit and the challenges she faced during and after these disasters.

Karen Kilgariff [73:38]: "Not a word, not a shout was heard. Just hundreds of men fleeing into the sea as if from an enemy in pursuit."

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Conclusion and Engagement

Karen and Georgia wrap up the episode by encouraging listeners to engage with their content through social media challenges like the #MyFavoriteHotDog hashtag. They reiterate their commitment to sharing compelling true crime stories while maintaining their unique comedic perspective.

Georgia Hardstark [91:05]: "Hashtag it up. Prove to us that you like hot dogs the most."

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Notable Quotes

• Karen Kilgariff [21:20]: "Rick is not exactly subtle about his involvement in the drug trade."
• Georgia Hardstark [29:34]: "But Richard remains in prison, and this is where Evan Hughes finds him and is like, this is fucked up."
• Karen Kilgariff [50:28]: "He uses proceeds from his business to help people who have been incarcerated."

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Key Takeaways

• Systemic Injustice: The story of White Boy Rick underscores the flaws in mandatory sentencing laws and the exploitation of informants by law enforcement.
• Resilience and Survival: Violet Jessup's historical accounts highlight human resilience in the face of multiple life-threatening disasters.
• Engagement with Audience: The hosts actively involve listeners through interactive segments and social media challenges, fostering a strong community connection.

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Further Listening

For those intrigued by the complex case of White Boy Rick, Karen and Georgia recommend additional resources:

• Books: Land of Opportunity by William Adler and Devil's Night and Other True Tales of Detroit by Zev Shoffitz.
• Documentaries: White Boy Rick (2018) starring Matthew McConaughey.

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Stay Connected:
Follow My Favorite Murder on Instagram @myfavoritemurder and join the conversation using #MyFavoriteHotDog. Listen to the podcast on iHeartRadio or your preferred podcast platform.

Merchandise:
Check out the latest designs at exactlyrightstore.com.

Support the Show:
Leave a review, subscribe, and share your favorite moments to help grow the My Favorite Murder community.

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Disclaimer: This summary is based on the transcript provided and aims to capture the essence of the episode while adhering to the guidelines of excluding advertisements and non-content sections.

Transcript

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is exactly right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

Hello and welcome to my favorite murder.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's Georgia Hart's chart.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's Karen Gilgarith.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're not gonna do those voices this whole time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We promise. Just half and that's it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is called a halvsies episode where.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We annoy the ever loving shit out of you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

To some people it's asmr.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's true.

[Georgia Hardstark]

To other people it's please shut the fuck up right now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How about I whisper and you scream.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm gonna be the super like smash that like button and then you're gonna.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Bring it in with what? Imagine you're chewing on glitter. I don't know what's ASMR like chewing on glitter?

[Georgia Hardstark]

That was it right there. Do you love the feeling of chewing on glitter? So do I. Here on my homepage.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What's going on?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I like when people on. I've noticed on TikTok a lot of people and maybe it's just because things are so stressful these days. Have pretty bad dry mouth. Where, like. You know what I mean? The extra.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I was listening to a podcast over the weekend. I will not say what it is. Don't, don't, obviously. And he took the wettest pauses that. Oh, my God. And I was like, this is the editor's fault. Like, this should have. Someone should have.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is the development person's fault.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't want to blame. The editors are the best people in the world. They're not trying to. Yeah. And they would have spent hours upon hours of editing out someone going, yeah, like that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You can't. And also, there are some people who would come back and say, hey, you've taken all the humanity out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. But I'm sure someone who is not on so many medications as I am and so fucking insane would has. No one's noticed it, but it is a wet pause.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My sister Laurel Kilgariff would notice it if she listened to podcasts. But I think that's one of the reasons she can't. Because she has misophonia or whatever version of that. I mean, literally just recently referenced talking to Adrian, my sister's friend Adrienne. And she goes, and her chewing doesn't bother you about me? And I was sitting right in fucking front of them. And I was like, wait a second.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Why is no one told. Yeah, someone like, I'm sure I do really annoying noises.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We all tell me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't want to. I am not. Oh, my God, I can't even imagine.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's the kind of thing. She has been complaining about it since I was young, so I know there's part of me that I do it on purpose. That's why I chew two pieces of gum at one time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, you just chew.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Pleasant. The least pleasant for this monster in my life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, no one sounds good. Chewing gum. But talking like a normal thing on an interview and on a podcast.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I used to always automatically eat it when I would be doing standup comedy. And if you would get nervous and your mouth went dry, if that's the way you get nervous, which was the way I was then. You're like lipstick to your teeth. People just know you're freaking out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, that happens. And that's totally. I totally understand that. I'll down some water while I'm doing any kind of thing like that. Like this. Like right now, I have two mugs.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But we could get more.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We could, but there could always be more.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There could always be more for that. Nervous. Like, your mouth is very connected to your Gut in that way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

People know. Oh, man, we're back on video. Oh, yeah. It's been so long.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. We took a little video hiatus, which was so lovely. I just looked like shit the entire time and enjoyed it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, this whole thing of having to wash my hair is a real pain in the ass now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Having to wash your hair is hard for me too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's a lot.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But we're back on video. We're on YouTube if you want to watch us here. We are.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We are. And because we're on YouTube, I had just a little fun thing for you because I realized, as you know, I went up to visit my dad. I was up in Petaluma for a little bit. And every time I go up there, I try to steal something from his house that I want at my house, that if I brought it up directly, he would just fight with me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't think I knew that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah. But nothing like a clock or something valuable, is it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fuck with him or just because you want it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, because it's like something meaningful that I want that's sitting in a corner with dust all over it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Got it. Okay. Like, yeah, okay. That makes sense.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's the healthiest version of shoplifting from your own parents.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I've done that. I did that to my grandma. I get it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're kind of like, you don't care about this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's my grandfather's old trash can in his office. And you haven't been in that office in fucking decades.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So, like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I still have that trash can.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I adore it and love it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You don't outwardly steal because you kind of point to it as you're walking out the door. It's like, you don't care about this. Right. See you later.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So it was one of those. But it is a thing that was hanging in my parents kitchen for literally 52 years.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So it's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is it a giant fork and spoon? Because that's so fucking 70s.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's very similar. It's a very 70s vibe. But it also my discovery and the reason I stole it is because we were talking, as we do endlessly, about hot dogs and hot dog summer and hot dog sisters and all those things. And I put my eyes upon this thing and saw anew for the first time. But because it's a. I think they used to call it like a memory box or something from the 70s that features my sister and I. And it cut out of an article that was on the front page of the local Newspaper. Laura and I at the local fair. What Being the original hot dog sisters. Are you ready?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my gosh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is there a way to move close?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I see it all. That is glorious.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There she is. Do you see these?

[Karen Kilgariff]

First of all, those are corn dogs, which makes me love it even fucking more. But look at Karen, little Karen in a knitted poncho, chomping on a corn dog the size of her head.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Poncho, diaper, full focus on that corn dog. Nice barrette, that. I still wear barrettes in that spot.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They better. The thing in general, like, the piece in general. I've never seen before anything like that. And it's like so homey.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think my mom's friend Priscilla made it for us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. It's so homemade. So you stole it? I love it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So I stole it back.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's corns of kernel for some reason. There's dried pasta for some reason. What are those? Hazelnuts? For some fucking reason.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think they're like old chickpeas.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Old chick chickpeas or.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And a piece of wheat.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wheat.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then I think that was a flower that's like some lavender wildflower, but it's so old that, like under the wildflower there's just little piles of dust.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So that's skin cells. Those are skin cells.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. It's just kitchen shit. That's. That's in there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's amazing. Let's put it. We're going to put it on the Instagram for sure so you can see it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I think the challenge might be. Yeah, you know, this was. I was jokingly bragging like, I'm the OG hot dog sister, but do you have hot dog sister pictures? Whether that means your actual sister, a friend, any kind of someone eating a.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hot dog you want? I don't know specifically.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's like, can you show your love of hot dogs the way we've been talking about our love of hot dogs?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, prove your love to hot dogs, maybe. I love it. Okay, let's do it. Let's do Hashtag, Hashtag my favorite hot dog.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then you can send us a picture of any hot dog. Did you fall asleep next to a hot dog? Did you? Were you harassed by a man in a hot dog suit? We want any and all stories.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We want hot dog content.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then we can post them. Yeah, we can post our favorites.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. And it can be as old as 1972 if you want.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If you can beat that. Actually.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If you were in the fucking newspaper.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If you were in the fucking World. Me and Laura and your mom was eating a fucking hot dog while you were in the womb.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Affair of your mother's womb. It's all the same thing, guys.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And we're at My Favorite Murder. So tag us then. I love that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Our podcast is called My Favorite Murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did you know that? And that's what we're on, on all the places. My favorite hot dog. I love it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Pretty fun, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

So fun. Because national hot dog is coming up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So, yeah, we have been discussing, like, what should we do? This is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We want a piece of this. We want to get in on this. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We want it to be about us.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then I'm like, standing in front of it where I'm like, I've been staring at this thing for literally my whole life. And it's right there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's a hot dog. Corn dogs are allowed as long as there's a hot dog involved. So it could also be like, do beans and franks count? I mean, chopped up hot dogs.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't be crazy. Let's not get crazy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hot dog bowl. Can we do hot dog bowl?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, what, some rice underneath it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, it's from Detroiters. Or I think you should leave where it's. Hot dog bowl is just chopped up hot dogs in a bowl. It says it like that. Hot dog chopped up hot dogs in a bowl with like, like a burrito bowl. But a hot dog bowl.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A hot dog bowl. Yes. Whatever. I mean, I think whatever. However people want it, interact with it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How do you interpret hot dogs? Show us your content.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, great. And then also we'll have a separate file for dick pics. It's something else completely. That's a different part of the show.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I thought you were gonna say, like, dogs in hot dog costumes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, sex sells. And we're trying to get a hashtag going.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We are. Oh, I have an email. It's not an email. It's a fucking letter. A real life letter.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, a hard copy letter.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hard copy letter. Because you know how I had. That crow was dead in my pool a couple weeks ago. And it was like, so heartbreaking. And I was like, I hope the crows don't blame me. I got like, the most beautiful package slash letter about that. Okay. So they sent me two beautiful bags of bird feed. Is that what it's called? And then this letter that I want to read.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Bird seed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, but they're not. It's not seeds. There's worms there, too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, amazing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's pretty exciting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. Hi, Georgia and Karen. We just finished episode 484 and felt we needed to formally acknowledge the fallen crow in Georgia's pool. Since crows hold funerals and mourn their dead, we thought it only proper to send a bereavement meal. And then it says, I had to send this because bird watching genuinely changed my life during a hard season when I was running a nonprofit that provided free birth control for women in the South. While managing my own anxiety and stress, I sat on my front porch doing a grounding exercise and noticed the birds. I downloaded an ID app just to see what was out there, and I was hooked. Welcome to your 40s.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That is the best. Also. Yeah. You're sitting on your porch trying to calm the down as the world melts down around you and this person who's like, I'll provide free birth control for women in the South.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Focus on the birds. God damn. Few years later, I left that job and became a entrepreneur. Now I run a nationally recognized bird seed company I created. From birth control to bird seed, who knew?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Living that American dream.

[Karen Kilgariff]

At Happy Birdwatcher, we customize blends based on your location. So they put your fucking zip code in and they're like, here's what birds in your area are interested in. Right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because like, Texas birds don't want to eat what California birds eat.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. Totally different worms.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. We use eco friendly packaging and give a dollar to mental health charities for every £10 we sell.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nice.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's still about helping people, but now I get to do it through something that brings joy and peace one backyard at a time. Just wanted to say thanks for being part of our workday. And it's an all woman team as well. Just wanted to say thank you for being part of our work days and the rhythm that keeps us going. We never imagined birdseed and now crow funerals would be part of our story, but here we are. And listening to you reminds us that meaningful work take all kinds of unexpected forms. That's so true crime. True crime. Who'd have thunk?

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Stay sexy and don't get murdered. And maybe go feed a crow with birdseed. And love Susan. She, her founder, Happy Bird Watcher.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Happy Bird Watcher.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And they sent the most beautiful two bags, the most beautiful birdseed I've ever seen before.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Incredible.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is that rap? It's really touching.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Also, there's so many people with their small businesses out there who. Yeah. When you hear the story behind the small business, you're like, I want to support those people totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Passion, passion projects.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's really Nice.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Isn't that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What else?

[Georgia Hardstark]

So are you going to take pictures of all the crows you feed? What's going to happen?

[Karen Kilgariff]

So over the weekend, I popped those bags open, and the crows were watching me as I put it down and walked away. Cookie gets really jealous when I. When that happens. But, like, I called her away, and I will tell you right now, the squirrels loved it. The crows still don't trust me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But I'm going to keep putting it out there and see how it goes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're going to have to win them over.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm going, and I'm going to. Like, they watched me put down two.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Trays of food, and they're like, careful. She might sprinkle something in it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. So I'm gonna just keep going and keep doing it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But crows are cynics. But you know what?

[Karen Kilgariff]

But I like squirrels, too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What?

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's like. I put out a bird feeder in my old house, and I was so excited, and it was like this very large bird feeder. I think I got it as a gift. And I was like, I'm gonna do it. And the next day, I went out to check what kind of birds were using it, and there was, like, 25 pigeons in my backyard. They were just all standing around like, when's this food coming? And they had gone it. Squirrel had gone in and spun it. So the seeds went everywhere, and everyone went and got it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, the least mindful bird that will help you ground yourself pigeon.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. They're from the Vons parking lot, and they're like, we heard there's seed over in this backyard.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no, that's not. That's actually worse than. I had a mouse on the video of the one I did once, and I was like, well, great. That's not.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They're, like, loitering.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They're like. It felt dangerous.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're opportunists.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Get them the out of here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's do Exactly Right Corner. We have a podcast network. It's called Exactly Right Media. Here are some highlights this week over.

[Georgia Hardstark]

On that's Messed Up. Kara and Liza cover the SVU episode Manhunt, and they dig into two truly horrifying cases. Some of the worst. Leonard Lake and Charles Ng. And then the murdering pastor, Gary Heidnik. We covered Gary heidnik in episode 77 live at the Keswick Theater. So you can go listen to an old live show and hear that story. If once you listen to that story Messed up, you're like, I need more of this horrible. Or you can Just wait six months and it'll be on a rewind.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's true. And then on this podcast, we'll kill you. I was so excited to see this. The Aarons are talking about all things food dye, which is like, there's so much to know. Am I dying of dye? Should I stop eating it? I don't know. From their accidental discovery to their overuse in snacks. And they do address the purple ketchup that Heinz released in 2001.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Must be discussed. And there's a brand new episode of mfm animated on YouTube. It's called Snails and Green Beans. Truly some of the best work of Nick Terry. There's times where we get into little patches where I go, this is made for Nick Terry. And this was one of those ones where as we were doing it, I was like, I think we were both like, and if he has animated it, this would be good. So go watch. They're all on our YouTube page at YouTube.com exactlyrightmedia and all of the other episodes of MFM Animated are on there too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And MFM too. And then over in the merch store. Oh, this is exciting. So we have a new design. It's our SSDGM moth design and it's a death's head moth that we absolutely love. Designed by our beloved Sammy Rich. It's available in a ladies tank top that I have right here that I'm absolutely gonna wear to sweat in. And then also a tote bag.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Look at that nice big tote bag.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Bring that to the farmer's market or to the library and wow everyone and.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fill it with birdsies.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And let them follow you around.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you, Sammy Rich, for designing yet another super cool piece of merch for us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Show them the arms so they know that it's not. Yeah, yeah, there we go.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I was, yeah, holding it up a little bit, but this is like a double tote bag size.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's a good tote bag. That's a good one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think it's a nice one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is classy. Go to exactlyrightstore.com please to check it out.

[C]

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[D]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

You know that moment when you're trying to pack the car for a road trip and suddenly it's like a game of emotional Tetris. The cooler won't fit, someone's already cranky and the dog has to sit on your lap. Or you can just skip the stress and get the car that has thought of everything. That's the Ioniq 9. It's Hyundai's first all electric SUV with three rows. Finally, space. Even in an EV, the Ioniq 9 gives you class leading interior space with really smart purposeful tech. It includes seven USB C ports. Excessive? How dare you. No batteries dying halfway through the drive and everyone gets their screen time, even the dog. And because it's Hyundai, it comes with standard safety features like highway driving assist too and blind spot collision avoidance assist. So even if your passengers are a little chaotic, your car isn't. The ultra powerful Ioniq 9 rear wheel drive S trim gets an EPA estimated 335 miles on a full charge. Actual range may vary, but that's plenty for your weekly errands, commutes, and maybe even an escape or two. And when you need to charge it fast, you can get up to 150 miles in just 15 minutes. When using a 350 kilowatt DC Ultra Fast Charger and CCS adapter, Actual charge time may vary. Plus it comes with a 10 year, 100,000 mile hybrid electric, limited battery warranty. That's real peace of mind. If you've been waiting to go electric but don't want to give up range, space or comfort, the Ioniq 9 is for you. Learn more about the Ioniq [e-mail] Call 562-314-4603 for complete details. Goodbye. Okay, I'm first. Okay, so this is a wild one that I knew about because Vince told me about it because it's from Detroit in the 80s and it is a wild story. It's an infamous case where the war on drugs, remember that came head to head with political corruption. And an unexpected drug kingpin, a white teenager, wound up caught in the crossfire. This is the story of Detroit legend Richard Worshi Jr. A.k.a. white Boy Rick. Oh, do you know, have you ever heard White Boy Rick?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I feel like I've heard the phrase White Boy Rick.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. I called to Vince today because we talked about it a long time ago and I said, hey, if I said White Boy Rick, would that mean anything to you? And he was like, hell yeah. And like, it's legendary.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And it was kind of when he was growing up, right, Vince?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Perfect timing. So the main sources for this story are a deep dive reporting from the Atavist and the New Yorker, both articles by Evan Hughes, who did like the deep dive on these and really, really interesting, awesome pieces about it that I am heavily using for this episode. And then Also there's a 2018 movie and a 2017 documentary called White Boy Rick, which I watched. And the rest of the sources can be found in the show notes who.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Played him in the movie.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, we're gonna get into that. I'll tell you right now. His father, who's a main character, was played by Matthew McCon monahay. Oh, yeah. Okay, so it's a good one. All right, so let's start In July of 1987, Detroit was the homicide capital of the United States for the third year running. And there's so much to be said about Detroit in the 80s. I mean, this Whole time period. Detroit, there's so much to talk about. And the crack cocaine epidemic had invaded Detroit. It's at this time that Detroit's local news station airs a stunning dispatch from the front lines of the War on Drugs, which is what the Reagan administration called their racist plight to put black people in prison because they were addicted to drugs.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Essentially this is the beginning of privatized prisons and prison as a money making venture in this country.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. So the war on Drugs. So in this story about what's going on in Detroit, a young Chris Hansen, of course, as we know him for hosting To Catch a Predator, he is like a young journalist. He rides along with Detroit's joint task force of the city's police department and the dea, who are trying to crack down. That group of cops, their nickname is the no Crack Crew. Cause they always had to have a fucking war on drugs. No Crack Crew dare. You know, like, they just.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was like civic branding, essentially, where it's like, don't think about it. You just know you're on our side. Because we have this dog with the trench coat, right? And then we have Nancy Reagan, so how can you not be on our side?

[Karen Kilgariff]

So just as a note, and I don't know if you know this, that crack and cocaine are essentially the same drug, just done differently, but much harsher. Enforcement of crack is one of the legacies of the War on Drugs that led to much longer sentences because crack itself was used by more poor people and black people. So you have people on Wall street using coke in the clubs. It's the same fucking drug that people are buying who are poor and people of color. That's why there's harsher sentences, essentially. Yeah, it's a trick and it goes all the way to the top. The mandatory minimum sentence for 5 grams of crack is the same as for 500 grams of cocaine powder, which is one of the reasons why no investment bankers went to prison for possession.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Also, they bought their way back out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Truly. In that televised report, Chris Hansen goes with members of the task force while they make one of the biggest drug busts in Detroit history. The crew enters an abandoned once grand apartment building called the Broadmoor. Not the asylum that we've talked about so many times in England. Yep. So clearly. So if you thought.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No. It's been turned into a sort of crack emporium where larger amounts are sold on ascending floors. So, like, it's been taken over. The bus leads to the arrests of the area's highest volume dealers of crack. Four brothers named Larry Billy Joe, Willie Lee and Otis Chambers. The Chambers brothers, okay. Being close to the top of a vast drug network, they themselves had hurt a lot of people and done a lot of bad things. But the work of getting to them had involved the no Crack crew using very discriminatory policing tactics and sweeping up much lower level offenders and users. Addicts who were interned, imprisoned with very punitive sentences. So they go after everybody to get to the top, but nobody gets off on the lower levels.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The no Crack Crew would sometimes arrest neighborhoods of houses where crack was supposedly sold. Just the neighborhood, just to get information. And then those people who had absolutely nothing to do with the drug use or the drug trade were still made to talk. And they got in trouble as well. Members and leadership of the no Crack crew were almost all white. And some of its leaders obviously were deeply and openly racist. So while the net around the Chambers brothers is closing in, the question becomes who is supplying them? Because that's who the no Crack Crew says they want to go after is the highest. But the answer, apparently is Ronald Reagan. You can't say that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, the answer's totally true. However, at the end of this, you know, series that Chris Hansen is at the helm of, they reveal that the answer to who was at the top is apparently a 17 year old white boy named Rick WorshiE Jr. History will know him as White Boy Rick, but it's not a nickname he has on the streets. It's a nickname that like the media gives him. But it becomes a legend, like a cowboy legend, you know?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So the question ultimately becomes who is this kid that the no Crack Crew want to find out about? And the answer's pretty easy to find. Rick is not exactly subtle about his involvement in the drug trade. He doesn't have a driver's license, but he drives around Detroit in a white Jeep with a decal on the back that says the Snowman. This is actually one of eight cars he owns. 17. He's known for wearing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's a junior.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's a junior.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's not even a senior.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not even a senior. He's known for wearing fur coats and gold watches. The whole like, I'm rich off drugs scene.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's 17 years old and he looks it. He's got a baby face, this like pencil thin, you know, 80s little boy mustache. In the movie he's played by Richie Merritt, who I wasn't familiar with, but Vince had thought that the actor was Emile Hirsch, which totally fits.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So picture Emile Hirsch from the I.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Will Go to Alaska and slowly die in a bus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's the one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Into the wild.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Into the wild.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you, Molly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's not called I will go to Alaska and slowly die in a bus. So close.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So close.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They really had an opportunity there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So this guy could have totally been played by him. Super 80s. So Rick had been in authority sites by the time the Chris Hansen piece airs and in fact had already been arrested for being found near eight kilos of cocaine. And what I mean by near is that they were found finger touching. Hey, who's that? Cocaine was side eyeing him. No, the cocaine was found hidden under the steps of his grandmother's house. Under the porch.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, brilliant.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So that's near enough.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Near enough, Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Rick's case about this goes to trial in 1988, just as he turns 18. And it's a huge case attracting national attention. He's found guilty. And again, because of those steep mandatory minimums for possessing large quantities of cocaine, he, who had been arrested at 17 and found guilty at 18, is sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. Holy shit. And at the time, murder got like 10 years, like across the country.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, also just at the time, I just remember that it played out in the media that, like, we are cracking down. We are getting tough on crime. It was the tough on crime thing across the board, whether it's this, that or the other. And there was a lot of that. Like, this sheriff is gonna make all the prisoners wear pink and they're humiliated. And it would be like in Time magazine, then you'd be like, that's great, because this is the way. And it was such a shot into the monoculture of. We like this. Yeah, don't worry about the people. Because it's the. We're gonna handle it in this way, like in the infrastructure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And we don't understand it. And so we're celebrating how it's being handled. Even though how it's being handled has nothing to do with justice, with any.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Of it or anybody getting. And all of those kinds of like, there's still people in jail now who got arrested for, like, having a joint on them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In 1979.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right? Yeah, it's very fucking. I'm not gonna be able to cover it all but well.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And also it's why when we first started, and we'd be like, yeah, put that serial killer away for life. There would be this counter of like, you guys are into privatized prison. You don't know what you're advocating for. Which was really True in the beginning, but we were basically saying, if somebody has raped and killed more than three people, how about we don't talk about their parole or whatever? But what people are saying is, like, we have to be analytical about the entire system because that's the cultural thing of. Yeah, throw them away.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Throw away the key. Yeah, exactly. Rehabilitation and all.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, It's a layered topic that we know nothing about, except for what we've done wrong and.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Except for. Yeah, what we're reading from journalists. So there we go. We're off the hook. If you want to listen to a podcast that's about that, listen to Wrongful Conviction. It's a great podcast. So life in prison, no parole, again as a minor. So during the jury deliberations, Rick's father, Rick Worshie senior, Matthew McConaughey, picture it. He confronted members of the no Crack crew. He's pissed off about how his son's getting in trouble, and he winds up being separately arrested and charged with threatening a police officer at the hearing. So after his son's guilty verdict, Rick Senior gives an interview from his jail cell, making a claim to all the media that no one has heard before and at the time, pretty much no one believes. And that is that Rick Sr. Claims that his son, white boy Ricky, had acted as an informant for the federal agents. The whole time he was, like, on the streets, he was an informant.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So he's basically kind of a plant drug dealer that was there to collect information.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And he's like a patsy now because they're sending him away. You know what I mean? He says, quote, they used me and they used my son, and now they turn around and. And fuck us over, end quote. Rick Senior names the specific FBI agent who they had been working with, saying his name was James Dixon. When reporters go to Dixon asking him if what Rick Senior is saying is true, he refuses to comment, and he resigns from the FBI not long after.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. I mean, this article in the Atavist is incredible. He interviews like everyone. But let's go back. I gave you a lot of information just now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it's a real influence.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that was quick. This is not the end of it. Okay, let's go back to the beginning. Richard Worshi Jr. Is born in Detroit in 1969 to Darlene and Richard Worshi Senior. The family lives on the east side of Detroit, which is still at the time, a functional working class neighborhood. But by Rick's teen years in the early 80s, it goes into sort of a free fall. Evan Hughes writes, quote, the auto manufacturers, which had lured so many to Detroit with union jobs that promised entry into the middle class, were now in rapid decline. From 1978 to 1988, the industry shed more than a third of its Detroit area workforce. This period, as you know, is often described as white flight, when nearly every white family abandons the area for the suburbs. But as Evan Hughes points out, it wasn't actually just all the white people. He writes, quote, almost everyone who had the means to leave was taking the opportunity. It was very swiftly becoming a dangerous place to live. But Rick's family stays then. There's various reasons. Their grandparents lived across the street. And Rick's father's businesses and schemes have always been either in a legal gray area or sometimes straight up illegal. So he was getting away with a lot of stuff in lawless Detroit. Primarily, he sells guns and very often sells them illegally when Rick is 13. So, like, picture the 80s. What's that movie over the Top, who we talk about all the time with Matt Damon. Like that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Matt Dillon.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Matt Dillon. Thank you. So Rick is 13. His parents divorce. His mom joins the exodus to the suburbs, and Rick lives with her for a while and says, it's paradise. He's shocked that a high school can have a swimming pool and a perfectly manicured baseball diamond. He says, quote, it was culture shock, dude, like moving from hell to heaven. But unfortunately, he and his stepfather don't get along, as is often the case in the 80s.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It feels like they did a lot of. It was like, no fault divorce. All of a sudden, everyone got divorced. And then everybody was like, oh, I can't do this. I have to get remarried. And then people remarried, the weirdest people that were just like, nearby and tried to do Brady Bunch family blending.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I met him at the church social and I knew him for two months. And now he's a monster. Totally.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I watched so many of my friends kind of go through that. I would come home and my parents had one negative thing to say to the other. I'd go, are you getting divorced? I was like, I just need to know. I need to get prepared.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. No. I met the men my mom dated. They were. They were divorced for a reason. I'll tell you right now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know, it was. They weren't just getting kicked out for crackers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, they were not.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I said that really weird. Not crackers, the white people.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, I thought you meant, like crackers in bed. Yeah, that's what I meant. That's what I meant.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's what I got just Keep it specific.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They don't get along. So Rick ultimately moves back with his father in the old neighborhood and like there is just a lot of fun trouble to get into as a teen in the fucking 80s.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Your dad sells guns, Your dad sells guns.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's no rules at all. His older sister dawn starts dating like a drug dealer. And so he becomes friends with him and sees how much fun, you know, essentially everyone's having, how much money people are making and how much cool stuff they're buying that he would never have been able to afford as just a regular kid. It seems like he just falls in love with what he sees.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, if this part of the movie there would be, you know, like a montage with Bad to the Bone playing underneath it. Oh my God, that's all exciting party sex. Everyone's in a good mood.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Lots of just like, you follow what you see and that's all there was in Detroit. Including his father, who later admits, like, I fucked up bad. I should have done better for him. I mean, it's just, it's sad. Yeah. So Rick falls in with those local petty criminals and with them he starts breaking into houses. That's what he first starts doing. He also starts learning about Detroit's bigger figures in crime, particularly the major players in the drug business, who are basically celebrities in Detroit where everyone is broke and the houses are falling down and no one has money, people are on crack. These sellers are kings that kids look up to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know, they have all the money. That's where the money's going.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And they fuck the system too, because they're like black and rich. Which was not a thing in the 80s that was like widely shown in the media. So at the same time, Rick Sr. Is tangentially related to the drug trade because he sells guns out of the house that they live in. So in the spring of 1984, when Rick is 14 years old, James Dixon, the FBI agent and a police officer from the Detroit Narcotics Division visit Rick Worshie Sr. They're trying to get the dad who's selling guns. They're like, to get information because he's tangentially involved with the drug scene by selling them guns. But Rick Sr. Doesn't really know a lot about it. But Rick Jr. Is in the room. 14 year old Rick Jr. And he's like looking at the photos, being like, oh, that's so and so. I know that guy, I know that guy. And suddenly they like hone in on this kid who kind of knows everything about what's going On.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So basically they get the kid to turn and become an informant.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, that's the story the dad and Rick tell.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, but when he's like, essentially a freshman.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, like so young, so young. Definitely worldly and like street wise in a way that doesn't happen today, which is not an excuse, and it doesn't forgive anything, but, you know, and very smart. So he gives the men a lot of helpful information. And the FBI winds up making Rick Senior, the dad, a registered informant. But Rick Jr. Stays off the book. That said, law enforcement quickly begins meeting with Rick on his own, without his father's presence, which is at least what they claim. Allegedly. Dixon says he never met with Rick Jr. Without his father also being there, but it seems hard to believe.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Also, it's like, what's he sitting outside 711 on his BMX bike?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's just like, hey, what's up?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it's not like, I'll meet you at your house every time I need to talk to you. No, it's like, hey, did you see blah, blah, blah. Yeah, see you later.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If he's a narc, he's narking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Totally.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They're not. Everything's not going to be, like, typed up and put into the report.

[Karen Kilgariff]

MX bike man. So Evan Hughes, the writer, first writes, quote, at first, where she just gave up. Isolated scraps of intelligence. The identities of the thieves who robbed a jewelry store. The name of a health clinic that was selling illegal prescriptions. The location of a cache of stolen guns. In time, he grew bolder, however, and began informing on leading crime figures.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's so dangerous.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know, I know. With that information, In February of 1985, the authorities raid a house that he had told them about with a search warrant based all on Worshi's information. And they find almost $200,000 in cash, which in today's money. Oh, it's 80, it's 85.

[Georgia Hardstark]

$200,000. Are we like a 1.5 million?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Half a million? I would think it'd be more than that. Over half a million.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's just slightly over double.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I want better numbers than that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I want more. I want more. So Rick Jr says, at the beginning of all this, it was just really exciting. He kinda, you know, it was like he was in his early teens. He had no grasp of consequences.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so crazy. It's like if we were gonna make the movie now, we could cast the kid from Young Sheldon to play this child at this point that's young with.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A little pencil mustache.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It would be a great like, turn of, like, no one's seen this from you in your career yet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's a good one. He says, quote, what kid doesn't wanna be an undercover cop when he's 14, 15 years old? End quot I didn't want to. I know, lots of fun. But I feel like. It almost feels like playing cowboys in a way, you know, fully. It's just not real to you. I would never want to be an informant for anyone, for anything, but especially Detroit. Drugs in the 80s. That just sounds dangerous.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So bad.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So dangerous.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, I wonder if it is a little bit of a. If it's compliment to Rick Senior where it's like, clearly the bad side of this business and what can happen was shielded from this child.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because you wouldn't be doing that knowing that people just get taken out to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The woods and Totally. And like, you know, Rick Senior is always like, I was just selling guns. I was not involved with drugs. Like drugs. I was against them. When I found out my son was, you know, making all this money off of them, I kicked him out of the house. So they were anti drugs. I know, I know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm morally superior cuz I'm only selling guns.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm only selling guns to the people who have drugs, not drugs to the people who have drugs. Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm not arguing for either.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, it's not good. And then Rick is also getting paid for his work as an informant. He says the FBI probably paid him a total of around $30,000 as a kid, which today. You want to try again?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I do. Well, a quarter of a million dollars.

[Karen Kilgariff]

30,000.

[Georgia Hardstark]

30,000 to 250,000.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, 90.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Damn.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like so much less than we think.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I refuse to learn math.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But you know why? It's because everyone was thriving in the.

[Georgia Hardstark]

80S, you know, like they didn't need as much money.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know. I think that inflation took a couple steps back after the 80s.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Maybe. I don't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Could be don't listen or just I'm a bad guesser and I refuse to notice the pattern.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know. I refuse. Okay, okay. So while this is happening, Rick Jr. Is having many escalating run ins with the law. But for some reason, which we now understand to be because he was an informant, most likely. Allegedly. Charges never seem to stick. Rick Jr. As a teenager, shoots a man who had stolen his grandmother's car. The arresting officer never appears at trial, so he never gets charged with anything. Rick is shot in the stomach in a different altercation. And law enforcement officers have him registered in the hospital as John Doe. Eventually, Rick Senior gets a new FBI handler, a man named Herman Grauman. But Rick Jr. Is showing up with his father at every official meeting because he knows more than his dad does. Every time the FBI agent asks the father a question, the son answers. So that 30,000 that Rick makes as an informant basically sets him up to be a drug dealer. Like that's what the money's for. So Rick starts dealing, though it's unclear if the FBI officially knows that he's doing that. But why give a child $30,000 in that situation unless they know he's going to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We thought he was going to start his own Long John Silver's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We wanted to go into franchise fast food.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so true. Fried fish fast food. Think about it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Get into it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's a great idea. So the FBI agent, Grauman, the handler, says that he believes Rick was making drug buys with the specific knowledge and at the behest of members of the Detroit Police Department. So like he's acknowledging that that was the money was for while this is happening. Rick quickly becomes part of that drug selling crew essentially, or that scene, the person that the FBI is trying to gather information about, this guy named Johnny Curry. And he's got this big crew. So basically Rick is a mole, but he's also legitimately a drug dealer. Again, he's only 15. So he kind of infiltrates this drug dealing Detroit gang. He's like the only white person and I'm 15 and let's do this. So one retired FBI agent named Greg Schwartz puts it, quote, we brought him into the drug world and what happened? He became a drug dealer. And we're surprised by that, you know. So in the spring of 18. No, that would be fun. Now let's go Victorian England. In the spring of 1985, only a year after the FBI has first approached Rick's father, Rick Jr. Goes to Las Vegas to watch a boxing match with Johnny Curry and other high ranking members of this gang. I cannot understate how powerful these men are that he has somehow been able to become friends with this 15 year old white boy. Yeah, these are kingpins.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He must have a great sense of humor.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I bet he's fun to be around.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, he must be.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's chill as fuck.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's seen a lot. He's seen a lot for a young teen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's not a snitch, they think probably.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Also he's going to places like Vegas, where You can't cover. It's not for children in any way. Or even young adults.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And yet there he is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, and no one's going to question it because of the crew he's with.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They're like, white boy, Rick, wait at the buffet for us. We're going to go play like 21.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, that's not happening. So basically what happens is, while they're there, Johnny Curry becomes enraged with an associate back in Detroit because he hadn't made the travel arrangements for the Vegas trip. You know how that is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, like your travel agent fucks up somehow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ah. Your friend who you made the travel agent, who you've probably given a lot of fucking money to. Like, didn't do what he was supposed to do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just had to make like four phone calls because this was pre.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, not that big of a deal. So Curry orders some of his foot soldiers to shoot up this man's house. Tragically, when they do that, they end up killing this man's 13 year old son. So this wasn't supposed to happen. And Curry tells his crew, including Rick, that if the police offer money in exchange for information, he'll pay them more to stay silent. Which scares Rick, who of course has already been feeding information to the cops. This is like a. Oh moment.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Rick does tell the FBI what he knows about the homicide though. And the FBI has already tapped Curry's phones with a. From the information that Rick gave them, when they look at the call logs, they realize that on the morning after the shooting of this poor kid, the first two calls that Curry made were two members of the Detroit Police Department called them that morning. One is a sergeant named Jimmy Harris, and the other is his supervisor, a man named Commander Gilbert Hill. And Hill will later become a Detroit City Council member and will run for mayor in 2001. 1. So this goes all the way to the top.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it always does.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Of course it does. You can't get away with that shit without, like cover inside.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, yeah, inside hookups.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So back in 1985, after the shooting, Rick basically confirms that Hill was collaborating with Curry, Hill, the sergeant, and says that Hill told Curry he'd take care of it, so not to worry about it. So this is like, oh, no, this is not good. So now we're back to Rick being convicted to life without parole at the age of 18 in 1980. And again, Rick's father immediately says that he and his son had been informants. He also says that Rick had been feeding the FBI information about the involvement of members of the Detroit Police department in the drug trade. The same one that they've been mercilessly cracking down on low level offenders. They're part of it. And Rick's been telling the FBI about that. @ the time, the feds only say that they can't comment either way and that they also can't really intervene on state charges or convictions. So they just leave everyone hanging. They back out for their part. One of the FBI agents who was involved at the time says that they did offer Rick the opportunity to come forward as an informant before his case went to trial.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But like, so that he could be killed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, exactly. He'd have to testify against major players in the Detroit drug world in open court, and then the federal government could help him. And it's like, that's not an offer, that's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And get his ged.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And really get his life back together.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Open that. That Silver. What's it called? Long John Silver.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, there's no future if that's what you choose to do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Absolutely not.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's no. There's nothing else happening for you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No. So Rick obviously knows that. Instead he tries his luck in court and he winds up with a life sentence. So in 1990, James Harris, the police sergeant who Rick implicated in being involved with the Currys, is caught in an FBI sting operation in which he agrees to help traffic a large volume of cocaine into Detroit. The FBI asks Harris to assist them in targeting his boss, that guy, the higher up. But he refuses. So he goes to prison until his sentence is commuted by then President George W. Bush at the end of his term in 2008. And there's other cops from that era and that squad who come under fire and get prison time as well. And actually one of them ends up spending time with Worshi in prison. In prison, he's like the guy who testified against him. The cop who testified against him at his trial, gets put in prison, is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In the same wood shop class as him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, that's intense. That's like by that point. Yeah, everyone's at risk going to jail. Everyone is like, it's a free for all.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Totally.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I need to read this article and stop talking about it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So in 1998, Michigan does roll back the mandatory life without parole sentence for people found guilty of possessing more than 650 grams of cocaine. They're like, oh no, this isn't great. In following decades, decades, most of the state's high level drug offenders from the 80s are freed, including John Curry, who was the drug kingpin over white boy Rick who was originally caught with the help from Rick, who was a teenager at the time. But Rick remains in prison and this is where Evan Hughes finds him and is like, this is fucked up. Let's look into this and does this amazing investigative reporting on this. And he remains in prison in a large part because of the Detroit law enforcement establishment and political establishment fighting tooth and nail against any opportunity for parole. Why would they do that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's as if they don't want him to be able to speak.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. This is of course, the very same establishment that included members who were found to be corrupt with information given by Rick. So this finally changes after Rick's case gets more publicity. Evan Hughes's first article comes out about him in 2014. Then a documentary called White Boy comes out in 2017, and the feature called White Boy Rick comes out in 2018 with McConaughey playing Rick Sr. Big hubbub. So Rick is finally paroled in 2017. I think that this publicity that Evan Hughes's articles helped a great deal. Wow. He's finally paroled in 2017 after almost 30 years, making him Michigan's longest serving non violent drug offender.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He then serves a sentence in Florida for involvement in a car theft ring while he was in prison. He's released in 2020 with time for good behavior. Rick sues the FBI, but the case is dismissed in 2023. Nowadays, Rick sells White Boy Rick branded cannabis and edibles, which are now fully legal. Fully legal, Absolutely. Like, get that. Get that money. He uses proceeds from his business to help people who have been incarcerated or who have been saddled with excessive court fees and fines to get back on their feet.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nice. That's how you do it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Truly, that's the fucking story. And there's so much more that everyone needs to read about FBI informant Richard Worshi Jr. A.k.a. white Boy Rick. There's a book called Land of Opportunity by William Adler that discusses the rise and fall of the Chamber brothers who I mentioned. That seems incredible. And also a book that I read that Vince had told me to read called Devil's Night and Other True Tales of Detroit by Zev Shoffitz, which talks about that time and that period in Detroit. And it is, it's just incredible. So I highly recommend that. Devil's Night. Check it out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Incredible. Oh my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm genuinely fascinated. I mean, first of all, how is this possible? Secondly, we got McConaughey in a 2017 venture that no one saw.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's all em, watch it. And like what if we all push it to number? If you guys can get that on the top 10 of the Netflix, we'll know that you're listening and that will just mean so much to us. You know what I mean?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Me?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, whatever.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The Netflix are simultaneously emotionally manipulative. It was desperate.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was so desperate for attention.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There was a kind of element of corruption. Just like the story you just told.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God. No, you're right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's use our influence.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But it's to affect Netflix. Oh, God, we're all white boy Rick now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Now I get it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Now I see how easy it is to fall into that lifestyle. Amazing. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Great job.

[C]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

We're all juggling a million things, work errands, hosting multiple podcasts. Sorry, that last one's just me, but you do a lot and your car should too. Hyundai's hybrid lineup offers great fuel efficiency, available wireless device charging and advanced safety tech. Hyundai has the most exciting hy hybrid lineups in America. Whether you're hauling kids commuting solo or you just hate stopping for gas, there's a Hyundai hybrid that fits your life. The capable Santa Fe Hybrid is a spacious three row SUV with seating for up to seven and advanced tech throughout. There's available dual wireless charging pads and an available WI fi hotspot capability. That's right, you can solve your children screaming with beautiful, beautiful WI fi. More the outdoorsy type. I mean, I don't get it, but the versatile Tucson Hybrid SUV is road trip ready with standard HTRAC all wheel drive and available wireless device charging. Hyundai's hybrid lineup offers the fuel efficiency you want without changing your routine. The uncompromising Sonata Hybrid Limited sedan gives you sleek performance and great handling with up to 191 horsepower. And the sporty Elantra Hybrid Limited sedan offers bold design and an EPA estimated 52 highway miles per gallon. With a Hyundai Hybrid, there will be fewer stops at the gas station and more time for everything else. America's best warranty claim based on total package of warranty programs. Visit HyundaiUSA.com or call 562-314-4603 for more details. Goodbye.

[D]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

Congratulations. Great work.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Tell me a story that was quite involved, as will mine be. Okay, we're gonna fly out of Detroit in the 80s, gonna go back in time a little bit. We're going to go to a place we've been to before that I've actually forced you to come to twice before. But I need to go back and you'll see why. Okay, so it's 2am on April 15, 1912.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Get a sense of what we're about to do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nope.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're in the middle of the North Atlantic where the Titanic is sinking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Motherfucker. The Titanic.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're going back to the Titanic.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I love that guy. You love that vessel.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A lot of stuff happened on that vessel that I want to tell you about.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's funny that you say 2012 and I'm in the middle of the night and I'm Like, I don't know, 1912. What did I say?

[Georgia Hardstark]

2012.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was a bad year too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So 2012 was rough. I fully agree.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I love your Titanic stories. It's just so funny.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Here's the thing about me and the Titanic. I love to talk about the people that made it off of the Titanic. Yeah, it's pretty an amazing topic. I have no interest to go down and look at the Titanic.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A lot of people want to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think photos are cool, but they never, they never give you what you want, you know, they don't put you there. They don't put you there. Maybe like a dish is so exciting, but like that's about it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And it's got all those weird algae on it, that dish. So much algae and a couple snails.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, okay, here we're going to 1912. Everything is snail free. The Titanic is sinking. And when it finally disappears under the water, it will take the lives of more than 1,500 people with it. There will be around 700 survivors. The survivors we've talked about on this show, episode 411, which was entitled Eight Years One Episode. That's when I talked about the Unsinkable Molly Brown. They actually called her Margaret Brown, but everyone knows her as the Unsinkable Molly Brown. She makes it onto Lifeboat 6 and she spends her time on that lifeboat rallying the terrified passengers and urging them to keep rowing. When the officer in charge starts to spiral in the midst of all the terror of what's going on around them, Molly threatens to throw him overboard. It's great for morale. Everybody keeps going. They survive.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Get it girl?

[Georgia Hardstark]

At the same moment that she's doing that, over on Lifeboat 6, the Titanic's baker, Charles Joughin, you might remember, he was the drunk one. Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh yes, we learned about he was the drunk one. Everyone was shit faced on that. That.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know, that band was barely able to like keep the bow to the strings.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh my God, so much good champagne.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If you want to hear me talk about Charles Joughin, it's episode 348. It's called Old Biscuit. And we learn on that one that basically the thing that saved Charles Joughin's life, they think is that he got super shit faced as the ship sank. He jumped up onto the railing and rode it down as the ship was going into the water. Then he, he tread water in 28 degree waves for several hours and lived. And it defies science. And they think it's because the liquor that was in his system just Kept his body warm. Almost like tricked him into being warm.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's why I drink, is just to stay warm.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Same. Don't tell anybody. We gotta stay warm, guys on this fucking Titanic that we're on. So. So when Charles Joughin is finally rescued, and we talked about this on that episode, but I still love this. He has two swollen feet. And that's it. That's the only thing wrong with that man who tread water in 28 degree ocean for hours until he got rescued.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, I wake up in my bed in worse shape.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Two swollen feet. I wish.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's funny.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, so what character is that? So some of our favorites. But today I'm gonna tell you about your new favorite, Titanic Survival.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's a third Titanic survivor whose story is more unbelievable than the first two put together. Throughout this woman's life, she'll be involved in not one, not two, but three historic maritime disasters. The sinking of the Titanic arguably is not even the worst one for her. Some people call her the queen of the sinking ships. This is the story of stewardess Violet Jessup. Yes. So main sources that Maren used for the story are Violet's memoir entitled Titanic, the Memoirs of Violet Jessup, comma, Stewardess. She fucking worked on the Titanic.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Incredible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And also a National Geographic article by journalist David Kindy entitled she Survived the Titanic, But It Wasn't the only time she faced death at sea. And the rest of the sources are in our show notes. Okay, we start the story 25 years before the Titanic sinks with an Irish Catholic couple from Dublin named William and Kelly Jessup. They have immigrated to South America, and now they have a sheep farm in Argentina. And in 1887, they welcome their first child, Violet. They will have eight more children in the coming years. Only six will survive childhood. So this was the horrible infant mortality situation of the turn of the 1920th century. So Violet herself nearly dies of tuberculosis when she's little. She is six for weeks, and later she'll describe this time as, quote, a dim awareness of being plunged into a very hot bath, then wrapped in cold wet sheets, followed by long periods of nothingness.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yikes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So scary and sad for a child. And speaking of her coughing fits are so intense at this time that, quote, blood seemed to be on everything. And her eventual recovery from this is said to be miraculous. So, normally, Violet's day to day involves helping her family. She's the oldest sister in a big family, which means she's doing cooking, cleaning, taking care of her younger siblings, the whole nine. Then in 1903, when Violet is 16 years old, her father William dies while undergoing some kind of a surgery. It's sudden, it's shocking. The loss hits Violet especially. She was her father's favorite child. And she will later write, quote, in my grief, I was tongue tied and stunned. Whenever I tried to speak, I discovered I had lost my voice completely. So sad. But of course, the family has no time to mourn because now Violet's mother, Kelly, is a widow with six kids who has to find a way to support the family. So she moves the family back to Europe, where they settle in England. And Kelly gets to work on ocean liners sailing between the UK and America. She's hired as a stewardess, and that means she's doing things like cleaning cabins, serving meals, and even some light nursing duties. And while she's at sea, Violet is left to raise her siblings by herself.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wait, her mom left to do that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yep.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And she's home with the five other kids. And the youngest is an infant.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No. No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So they were just making do?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

For the next several years, Violet's basically a stay at home mom, dreaming about the day her mother will come home for good. And when she does, Violet plans that she will join the convent. But that dream never pans out, because instead, in 1908, when Violet is around 21 years old, her mother gets very sick. And it's serious enough that she has to stop working. So to keep food on the family table, Violet again steps up for the family. And even though she does not like the ocean, she does not know how to swim. And she's kind by the vast openness of the sea, she starts looking for stewardess work. She knows it's a good job, she can get paid well, her mom can tell her how to do it. And she not only has years of caregiving experience raising her brothers and sisters, she's fluent in Spanish from having been raised in Argentina. But at the time, she struggles to get work as a stewardess, partly because she's so young, much younger than most of the stewardesses who are working at the time, but also. Also, Violet is very beautiful, which works against her because in a job like that, you're supposed to blend in and just be part of the wallpaper. Right? And whether she wants to or not, Violet does not blend in.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I get it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nice. J.K. j.K. I've been through it. I feel that I've never been a stewardess for that very reason on the Titanic. So after she gets interviewed a couple times and gets rejected, she starts dressing down for the Interviews. She stops wearing makeup altogether. And it works. She ends up landing one job after another. And by 1911, 24 year old Violet is hired by the White Star Line to work aboard the RMS Olympic. So at the time, the RMS Olympic is the largest passenger ship in the world. It's completely state of the art. It has electric elevators, Turkish baths, a swimming pool, and ornate features like crystal chandeliers and marble statues and plush velvet furniture.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Amazing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They really went all out. It was like the Empire State Building on the sea. Not that tall. But anyhow, Violet isn't all that impressed. She's just there for the money. And that's what keeps her going. When she has the experience that she really doesn't like, which is the passengers treating her like their servant, which happens often. And rich male passengers leer at her. They proposition her. Some even propose, like the second they meet her. While the women passengers can be extremely cutting, very condescending. Later on, Violet will write, quote, I often reflected that there must be some quality in a sea trip that affects character. Or maybe its enforced propinquity emphasizes how awful normal folk can become mean, paltry and selfish to a degree when they are in the position of indiscriminate power.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like what happens on the Titanic stays in the Titanic.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And also, it's like, just because we're stuck on this boat together doesn't mean I gotta do everything you say. Maren made a note to me. Propinquity means physical closeness or nearness.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then she was like, I've never heard this word before.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you again.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Propinquity.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Propinquity.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's your continual propinquity that causes the problem.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Say it in ASMR.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If you have a 10 tendency toward propinquity, toward tapping your nails on stuff, it's misused. Okay, so now it's September 1911. Violet's been working as a crew member on the Olympic for months. And then one night, the boat she's on, the Olympic, collides with a British warship called the Hawk off the coast of the Isle of Wight. So the Hawk is this little. It's like a sixth of the size of the Olympic. And it's actually specifically built to ram and sink enemy vessels. So it's very strong. The two boats collide and the Hawk nearly capsizes, but it still manages to leave a 40 foot gash along the side of the Olympic. Water rushes into the bottom of the ship and it actually downs a propeller. And of course, from her room, Violet hears and feels this horrible incident.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Impact.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Although no one's injured or killed from this crash and the ships aren't very far from land. And even with that propeller down, the Olympic is able to just hobble back to port. So no one has to evacuate on lifeboats. So comparatively, this is probably the tamest of all the horrible ship accidents that Violet is involved in. She gets reassigned to another White Star Line.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it is the company's brand new luxury ocean liner that's gearing up for its maiden voyage. It is the Titanic.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hey.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So we're back on the North Atlantic. Just before midnight on April 14, Violet is in her quarters. She is getting ready for bed after being a stewardess all day on the Titanic.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, the feet, the feet pain.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just the feet, the work. The. Over here. Can you get me a roll?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Snap, snap, snap, snap, roll. So Violet's back in her quarters. She's holding a piece of paper that has a handwritten prayer on it. And it's one that's supposed to protect her from fire and water, which is very Catholic. We have saints. They do very specific things for very specific people. I guess there's a fire and water saint. I'll look up who it is later. And as all of that is going on, Violet hears a huge crash followed by a, quote, low, rending, crunching, ripping sound. So of course it's a scary thing for her to experience. But like everyone else on board, they've been told time and again that the Titanic is unsinkable.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

So no one's panicking. She certainly is not. But eventually, a shell shocked Violet is called up to the deck. This will be her very last assignment on the Titanic. She's told to translate evacuation instructions for the Spanish speaking passengers and then to assist women and children getting on the lifeboats. So that's what she does until she herself is loaded onto Lifeboat 16.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Moments before her group is lowered into the ocean, an officer rushes over and says to Violet, quote, Here, Ms. Jessup, look after this. And then basically hands her a baby girl. The baby had been left alone on deck. And so the officer just basically made the hasty decision to grab this baby and throw it to Violet for safekeeping. So as their boat is lowered some 60ft in the dark to the freezing cold ocean below, with icy wind whipping at their faces like, quote, a knife. In its penetrating coldness, Violet is trying to soothe this baby girl. But the lifeboat hits the water hard. You don't think about that part of it where it's like, yes, you're being saved. In a way, but off of a sinking ship into in a hurry. The North Sea that we've all seen tiktoks about. Is it the North Sea? Yeah. Well, the North Atlantic, yeah. So the baby starts crying when the lifeboat hits the water again. Just quick reminder, Violet does not know to how, and she's, of course, terrified herself, but she focuses on the baby. She pulls the baby to her chest, hoping to keep her warm. And she just watches as the Titanic sinks into blackness.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Holy shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And here's how Violet will later describe this moment. She says, quote, I watched the Titanic give a lurch forward. One of the huge funnels toppled off like a cardboard model falling into the sea with a fearful roar. A few cries came to us across the water. Then silence as the ship seemed to right itself. Like a hurt animal with a broken back. She settled for a few minutes, but one more deck of lighted ports disappeared. Then she went down by the head. And a thundering roar of underwater explosions. Our proud ship, our beautiful Titanic, gone to her doom.

[Karen Kilgariff]

God, what a sight.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And you're like. Like however many feet away you could get away, totally looking at that. I don't like it. It's too big and it's too vast. I'm on Violet's side.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't like it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's why I need to keep talking about it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, I get it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So for the next several hours, as traumatized Titanic survivors wait to be rescued, Violet clings to this baby as you would. At one point, she worries that both she and the infant are going to freeze to death in Lifeboat 6. And then the rescue ship, the SS Carpathia, shows up around 4am so it's like, about two hours.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did we ever have the discussion about, like, the magnets?

[Georgia Hardstark]

How do they work?

[Karen Kilgariff]

How do they work? How do they maybe affect the Titanic's scouting system?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do we talk about that in any of these?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't think so.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you want to throw some theories out?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'll do it. Another thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Have you been listening to RFK's podcast? What's happening Happening? It's all magnets.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's all magnets.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You think something interfered and that's how it dove into the iceberg?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, but a natural phenomenon interfered and. Yeah, that's why.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Some, like, Bermuda Triangle stuff.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly. So if you know what I'm talking about, send me the article that I read about, at least.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cause I don't remember. If you know what we're talking about and you're in the North Atlantic right now, tell me. Tell Me? What I'm talking about.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Tell me. Was this just an episode of Below Deck? And I'm totally fucking wrong. It could be.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I slept with him because of the magnets. They drew me toward his cabin.

[Karen Kilgariff]

His dick is the Bermuda Triangle.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's not my fault that the draw is so strong. It's like two cartoon magnets pulling Wiley Coyote off a car.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Dick was the lifeboat. Okay, stop it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Stop it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Serious podcast.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I was just talking about a baby.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, you're playing this for your mom, and now she's horrified.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, we're going to do a quote from Violet about. About the moment that she and the baby are saved. Okay, Ready? Quote. I was still clutching the baby against my hard cork life belt when a woman leaped at me and grabbed the baby and rushed off with it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hey.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It appeared that she put it down on the deck of the Titanic while she went off to fetch something. And when she came back, the baby had gone. I was too frozen and numb to think it strange that this woman had not stopped. Stopped to say thank you, end quote.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh. So the mom came.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The mom was like, you have my baby. That's my baby.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, well, everyone's panicking, so.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And nobody would blame. She thought she lost the baby totally entirely. And there's a lady that has the baby.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But also, like, babies all look the same to me. Like, how do you know it's your baby?

[Georgia Hardstark]

The same.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like such babies, the attitudes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Years later, Violet will receive a very short phone call from a woman claiming to be that baby.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, the baby. The baby. Call. Hello?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's a baby.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Call.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Call.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Call her id. It's the baby.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The. That baby.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That baby.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Your favorite baby. The Titanic baby from the North Atlantic. Some people say that that call was either a hoax or it wasn't really. Violet seemed to believe she really was the caller.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sure, why not?

[Georgia Hardstark]

So the Carpathia spends four hours pulling Titanic survivors from their lifeboats. Ultimately, they deliver around 700 people to safety in the New York harbor.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I thought they went to Canada.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think they took the dead bodies to Canada. Oh, that's where the big morg was.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But sorry, that's just what it said here, so you could be right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, that's probably below deck.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, that's more below deck. Newfoundland. From there, Violet catches a ship back to England. And not two weeks later, later, she signs back up to go out to sea to work as a stewardess once again.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because, like, what are the chances, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm sure. And she's kind of like, this is a real skill. She probably can make good money, comparatively.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And she needs the money. It's not like she has to take time off.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, she can't go find herself and do a year abroad.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you think there was a Titanic survivor fund or something? No, they didn't do that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, you would think something, but anyway, she's kind of like all business, which. Sorry. I do love that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're just like, hey, look, it's Irish, man. It really is. It's Irish Catholic. Because it's like, I'll get my reward later. I'll go back onto the thing that tried to kill me last two times. Okay. She will say, quote, I knew that if I meant to continue my sea life, I would have to return at once. Otherwise I would lose my nerve. For I had no love for. But I needed the work girl. Yeah, intense. So Violet will later write about how the sinking of the Titanic changes her entire perspective on life and strengthens her already very deep faith. What it does not do is change how much she hates being at the beck and call of rich travelers. There's no faith strong enough to get you over rich people snapping their fingers at you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Absolutely not.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Violet writes on that topic. Quote, I wanted the quietness of happy contentment, not the hectic turmoil of riches, which. Which sapped simplicity and spontaneous kindness out of people. I wanted desperately to shut out the encroachment of sea life on my inner self, to retain something I feared I was losing, a kind of action that's performed for the love of pleasing and not for gain. I had gained one thing. I learned how to look very deeply into people and to value them for what I found. Famous names and possessions no longer moved me. I was more confident when confronted by some powerful ones whose cold eyes as I served her breakfast might once have shattered me. She's literally talking about my career. But each day it was more. But each day it was more difficult to be my simple self, to ignore the pettiness, artificiality, and frothy gaiety that encompassed a stewardess's life on board a ship.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I fucking totally hear that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

As an ex waitress, I fucking hear it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Come on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And like, it's not entitled motherfuckers on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Vacation being like, you make my vacation go totally. So it's the literal opposite of a vacation. You are.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You are here to serve me. To serve me, and that's your purpose.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Snap, snap, snap.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fuck you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So now it's 1914 and World War I begins.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Heard of it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Violet is 27, and as we all do at age 27, she decides to pivot. So what she does is become a war nurse, definitely.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's what.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, you got to. So she's in hospitals both on land and at sea. Oh, honey, she can't stop. In late 1916, she's assigned work on the Britannic, which is the third of the White Star Line's signature luxury vessels. This sister ship to the Olympic and to the Titanic.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Why don't they know when to quit? Or, like, change the name of the company?

[Georgia Hardstark]

With this assignment, Violet will have worked on all three of the White Star Line.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's gotta be. There can't be a lot. Lot of them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. I bet you they gave her a nice pocket watch for it. So during the war, the Britannic is repurposed into a hospital ship. And on November 21, 1916, it's moving through the Aan Sea on the way to the battlefields in Turkey to treat wounded soldiers there. So they go pick up all the wounded soldiers and take them back away from all the war. So at a little after 9am Violet has just left. Left Mass Church, and she's now quietly eating her breakfast.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You mean temple? Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, do I have to translate it for you?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you. She's eating breakfast post Mass.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Post Mass and not Massachusetts. And her breakfast is interrupted by a loud boom. We're doing it again. For years, the cause of the blast will be unclear, but today, in 2025, it's believed that the Britannic hit a mine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So the ship shakes violently, begins to sink. Violet yawns, checks her watch, looks around.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is there a baby? Does anyone wanna give me a baby?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Stop crying. It's not that big of a deal. I've seen worse. Does anybody have a baby? Amy. All babies.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'll take the baby.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hand the babies over here, please. She's finishing her English muffin. Okay. Officers immediately start moving people onto leg. But Violet runs back to her room to get a prayer book and a toothbrush.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Honey.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which is something she sorely missed after surviving the Titanic sinking. A friend had jokingly told Violet to, quote, never undertake another disaster without first making sure of your toothbrush. That's how much she complained about not being able to brush her teeth after surviving the sinking of the tank.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How much were toothbrushes back then? And then my.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What did the toothbrush cost?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think she was just like, it was no one's priority to get me a toothbrush after we got back to land. And so she's like, never again.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. All right, girl. Seems like you could use your finger like we all did when we crashed at the dude's house in our 20s.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So now Violet's loaded onto a crowded lifeboat. This is if you are the kind of person that doesn't understand why you listen to True Crime podcast. Because they're upsetting. This part might upset you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, okay, Got it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is a very upsetting part, especially if you have ocean issues.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. Or you're on a boat right now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or you're on a boat right now. So they're slowly being lowered into the water, which is not a smooth journey. The ship starts tilting. The lifeboat gets snagged on an open porthole. It almost flips upside down. But the people on the lifeboat manage to get it uncrewed. Now it's scraping down the side of the Britannic as it's lowered. At one point, the ship takes another hard tilt and the lifeboat goes out and swings into the ship's green hospital band, which is made of glass. So it's a hospital ship. The green band around it is actually made of glass. I didn't know that. So there's like a red cross up here, red cross back there. That's so, you know, hey, don't bomb this ship.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Canvas.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Was there a shortage of canvas right away?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know who planned that, but they smash into it and glass shatters. And Violet and the other people on the lifeboat are sprayed with shards of glass.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All the while, Violet is looking down at the water. She can see two lifeboats are already down there, and the people who are on those lifeboats are doing everything they can to row away from the ship itself. But the captain is still trying to move the Britannic towards shallower waters. And he has not turned off the ship's propeller.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The propeller is now sucking the evacuees in their lifeboats toward the ship. Violet watches as the worst case scenario plays out in front of her. One of the lifeboats gets sucked into the ship's blades, and the boat and all of the people on it are hacked to pieces. And the water then turns red with blood as she. As they're dangling over the same water they're supposed to go down into.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Violet will later say, quote, I gave that foolish, nervous laugh as people sometimes do when faced with an unpleasant discovery and a doubtful alternative.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's a beautiful way of putting. Oh, fuck. Oh, fuck. Oh, fuck.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Holy fuck. Fuck. Holy fuck. Just sitting there looking down.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Violet's lifeboat is finally dropped into the same Water. Almost on cue, everyone except for Violet and one other man jump out of the boat and into the sea. Violet will later write about this quote, not a word, not a shout was heard. Just hundreds of men fleeing into the sea as if from an enemy in pursuit. It was extraordinary to find myself in the space of a few, almost the only occupant of the boat. I turned around to see the reason for this exodus, and to my horror, saw the Britannic's huge propellers churning and mincing up everything near them. Men, boats and everything were just one ghastly whirl.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, man. Dude, shut it off.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So she turns around to see why everyone's jumping off the boat, and then when she turns back, the one guy that was left also jumps off the boat.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cool.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so horrible. She can't swim, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's not an option. And yet she knows if she stays on this boat, she's going into that propeller. So she flings herself into the water, kicking and paddling for her life. And it is the very first time her whole body and her head are underwater like that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, I'm sure she took baths before, but, like, never. She has never.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's immediately jerked around by the power of these propellers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, they just suck you right in.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. You're gonna go where that water takes you. Her head is hit onto the ship's keel, which is the bottom spine. Twice she's pulled down and her head is knocked into the keel. Twice. She will later write, quote, my brain shook like a solid body in a bottle of liquid.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

At the same time, the keel is also blocking Violet from being able to come back, back up and surface. So she is under there about to drown. She says, quote, suddenly, some twist of fancy made me see, even then, underwater, the humor of my situation.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my honey.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I chuckled. That was very nearly my undoing, for I swallowed what seemed like gallons of water and everything that was in it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I love her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, how much fun was she to have a drink with?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because she was like, you gotta be fucking someone. Hand me a baby down here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can you believe it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Miraculously, this is when the captain finally cuts the ship's engine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thanks, guy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The propellers stop, and now Violet's adrenaline kicks in. Yes, she's injured. It is a head injury, but somehow she forces her way to the surface and finds a life vest floating nearby. She holds onto that life vest, she keeps her head above water, and she's swims past dismembered corpses and dangerous debris from the chopped up lifeboats.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Dude, horror show. Yeah, this is the worst one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

While the Britannic continues sinking behind her, Violet is far enough away. She gets far enough away, and when she does, she turns around and she watches it go down. Quote, she says all the deck machinery fell into the sea like child's. Then she took a fearful plunge, her stern rearing hundreds of feet into the air until with a final roar, she disappeared into the depths. The noise of her going resounding through the water with an undreamt of violence.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You just don't want to be that close to these gigantic ships when they sink. True.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like really, you want to be at.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Home, far, far away, at home with your eight brothers and sisters. So Violet's out there bobbing in the water, clinging to the life vest until a motorboat approaches and pulls her up to Saf. She then realizes for the first time that her leg has been slashed and her head is, quote, battered almost to a pulp. Doctors are amazed by how mobile and alert Violet is when she sees a Britannic doctor that she'd sat beside at mass earlier that morning. He tells her, quote, I know what saved you today, young lady.

[Karen Kilgariff]

English muffin.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did you hear the way I choked on the finishing that sentence where I was and like, oh, wait, he means God. Hold on a second, hold on a second.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What did you think of it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

This? I don't know. I wasn't really thinking. I was like, this is a highly Catholic church sponsored episode.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It truly is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The Britannic will sink in just under 55 minutes. It took the Titanic 2 hours and 40 minutes to sink. This thing went down fast. 28 people are killed when the Britannic. It could have been much worse if the ship had picked up wounded soldiers, but it was on the way, thank God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Violet is patched up and she's sent home to England where she lives with her mom, Kelly. She ends up getting a job at a bank.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And for that sounds way better.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, but she's having problems with her basically with her cognition because of the head injury. Years after the, a doctor will be doing a routine exam on her when he tells Violet that she'd actually fractured her skull when her head hit the Britannic's keel. And she somehow not only survived, but was never treated for it and basically got through it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Good to know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So a few years after that, in 1920, when Violet is around 33 years old, she gets an itch to go back to sea. Violet will go back to the White Star Line on the restored Elite, which is the ocean liner she worked on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That collided with the Hawk Number one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Violet immediately notices how different the Olympics passengers are from the last time she was on it. Instead of the stuffy, ultra rich, bossy assholes that she had worked for before.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The war, the Victorian Richie Riches, Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Now, she's dealing with Americans, many middle class. They're just there to have fun.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because on land, it's Prohibition, Right? So that's a new responsibility as a steward. And stewardesses, on this ship, it's part of your job to basically help these VIPs to booze it up while they're on the ship.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sounds great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And basically, part of the job is you have to hide the booze from customs agents.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Got it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Violet will write about that quote. It was all so fantastic. There were pillars of Wall street, senators, lawyers, debutantes, all with their minds on the same problem as we approached the shores of the United States. How do we keep drinking? So from here, Violet bounces around to other ships. She even completes two cruises around the world on the Red Star Line. And that experience means a lot to Violet. She's surrounded by diverse people. She's exposed to different world cultures. And this is when she really begins embracing her life as a stewardess, which she then comes to appreciate for its excitement and its unpredictability and the ways it's tested her spirit and resolve.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fair enough.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, that's quite a line, Maren, having written that, of, like, testing her spirit and resolve.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like you almost died on a three.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The ocean wants to kill you so bad, Violet, definitely.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is fucking Final Destination. Victorian.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's like, guess what? I was at church this morning. It's not happening today. That's right. Mass will keep you from dying. Violet spends the next several years at sea. She marries and quickly divorces a fellow steward in 1950. She retires at the age of 63 and moves into a cottage in Suffolk, England, in a village called Great Ashfield, where she raises chickens, makes an adjacent field available for her neighbor's horses, who she loves like her own, and she even grows flowers that remind her of the ones that she loved as a little girl in Argentina. Violet Jessup dies of congestive heart failure in 1971 when she is 83 years old.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What a fucking life.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What a life. And despite her long career at sea, she ends her life very grounded. Close with her family, doting on her neighbor's horses, tending to her garden, and every so often, delighting and telling one of her unbelievable stories of survival. And that is the story and the legend of the so called queen of the sinking ships, Violet Jessup.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow. Yeah, I'd take that. I'll take that life, you know, chick check. Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'll take it all the way up until hovering over red water while people.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't want that one. I don't want that one. That's fucking wild.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It is not cool.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow. Great job.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You did it again.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Great job. My researcher, Maren McGlashan, who took that basically was like, I think I found one that's crazier than all of the Titanic stories combined. I'm like, how is that possible?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's a good one. Yeah, we believe in you guys.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We believe you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Good job. To everyone listening. Don't forget, hashtag my favorite hot dog.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hashtag it up. Prove to us that you like hot dogs the most.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We'll show you ours if you show us your right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. And also stay sexy and don't get murdered.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye, Elvis. Do you want a cookie?

[Georgia Hardstark]

This has been an exactly right production.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our senior producers are Alejandra Keck and Molly Smith.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This episode was mixed by Liana Squillace.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Our recent researchers are Maren McGlashan and Ally Elkin.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Email your hometowns to my favorite murdermail.com.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Follow the show on Instagram at my favorite murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Listen to my favorite murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And now you can watch us on Exactly Right's YouTube page. While you're there, please like and subscribe. Goodbye. Every business has an ambition. PayPal open is the platform designed to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Help you grow into your yours with.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

Can focus on scaling up when it's time to get growing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's one platform for all business PayPal.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Open grow today at paypalopen.com loans subject.

[Georgia Hardstark]

To approval in available locations. With depression, it feels like every day you're just going through the motions. I wanted something that could help me feel better fast and that also lasts. That's when my doctor told me about Ovality.

[E]

In a study, Ovelity started working for some as early as one week with significant improvements seen on average at six weeks compared to placebo.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ovelity is helping me to feel more like myself. I'm glad I talked to my doctor about Ovelity.

[E]

Ovelity is a prescription medicine for adults with major depressive disorder. Ovelity is not approved for children under 18. Ovelity ovality may increase suicidal thoughts and actions in young adults. Tell your doctor about sudden changes to mood, thoughts or behavior. Do not take Ovality if you have a history of seizure eating disorder or have abruptly stopped drinking alcohol or taking benzodiazepines, barbiturates or anti seizure medicine, serious allergic reactions can occur. Do not take if you are allergic to dextromethorphan, bupropion or any of the ingredients in Ovelity. Do not take with any maois. High blood pressure, manic episodes, serious eye problems and dizziness can occur. Report all medicines you take to avoid a life threatening condition. Do not take Ovelity if you are or may become pregnant. Side effects can include dizziness, headache, diarrhea, feeling sleepy, dry mouth, sexual function problems and excessive sweating.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ask your healthcare provider if Ovelity is right for you. Visit ovelity.com that's a U V E L L I T Y.com or call 866-496-2976 for more information.

[C]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

Good.

[C]

Go to sonesta.com to book your stay and unlock their best rates with Sonesta Travel Pass here today, Rome tomorrow. Join [e-mail] Terms and conditions apply.