489 - We Are Your Baby

Summary

Podcast Summary: My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Episode 489 - "We Are Your Baby"
Release Date: July 17, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 489 of My Favorite Murder, hosts Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark delve into the harrowing true crime story of John Paul Getty III's kidnapping in the early 1970s. Known for their unique blend of true crime and comedy, Karen and Georgia provide an in-depth exploration of this high-profile case, weaving in historical context, personal anecdotes, and poignant reflections.

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Background of the Getty Family

The episode begins with Karen and Georgia setting the stage by introducing the Getty family’s immense wealth and notoriety. John Paul Getty III, the grandson of the wealthy oil tycoon J. Paul Getty, was born into a life of privilege but faced significant personal challenges.

Notable Quote:

Karen Kilgariff [22:03]: "My dad loves to talk about how cheap Getty was. He can't believe someone so rich would be that stingy."

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The Kidnapping Incident

In July 1973, 16-year-old John Paul Getty III was kidnapped in Rome by a mafia syndicate known as the Andranghetti from Calabria. The kidnappers demanded a ransom of 10 billion lire (approximately $17 million at the time), a figure that highlighted both their audacity and the complexities of dealing with ultra-wealthy families.

Notable Quote:

Georgia Hardstark [39:11]: "Dear grandpa, you've always been so generous to me. I know that this won't be a big deal to you because I know how much you don't care about money."

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Getty Family's Response

J. Paul Getty, the patriarch, publicly refused to pay the ransom, citing his belief in not negotiating with kidnappers. His stance was both harsh and controversial, leading to public outcry and immense media scrutiny. The refusal was rooted in his frugality and distrust of criminals, traits that were well-documented among the Gettys.

Notable Quote:

Karen Kilgariff [41:51]: "He says, 'I have 14 other grandchildren, and if I pay one penny now, then I'll have 14 kidnapped grandchildren.'"

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Impact on John Paul Getty III

The kidnapping had a devastating effect on John Paul Getty III's life. During his captivity, the kidnappers mutilated his ear as a form of intimidation, a move that not only was a physical trauma but also a public relations nightmare for the Getty family.

Notable Quote:

Georgia Hardstark [44:22]: "So he's like, honey, don't look in that shed. That's my man cave."

After his release, Getty struggled with substance abuse and mental health issues, exacerbated by the trauma of his ordeal and his grandfather's refusal to provide financial assistance during his captivity.

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Legal Proceedings and Aftermath

In the years following his release, Getty III faced numerous personal challenges, including an overdose in 1981 that left him paralyzed and unable to speak. He passed away in 2011 at the age of 54. The legal repercussions for the kidnappers were minimal, with only a fraction being convicted and the majority of the ransom money never recovered.

Notable Quote:

Karen Kilgariff [83:55]: "He will later say, 'There's an old saying, the devil deceived me, showed me something I wanted. It felt good, it looked good. But guess what, sooner or later, that bill comes due.'"

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Cultural and Historical Context

Karen and Georgia contextualize the kidnapping within the larger framework of the Getty family's legacy and the societal attitudes towards wealth, power, and responsibility during the 1970s. They explore how Getty's actions influenced public perceptions of billionaires and their obligations to family members.

Notable Quote:

Georgia Hardstark [25:45]: "Just to give you an idea of how much has changed in terms of wealth disparity over the past 50 years. And they're like, I love you."

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Concluding Reflections

The episode concludes with Karen and Georgia reflecting on the tragic outcomes of the Getty kidnapping, emphasizing themes of familial duty, the corrosive effects of extreme wealth, and the profound personal costs of such crimes. They underscore the importance of empathy and understanding in the face of complex family dynamics and societal pressures.

Notable Quote:

Karen Kilgariff [87:30]: "And it's just. You try to see the man he could have been."

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Key Insights and Themes

• Wealth and Responsibility: The episode highlights the moral and ethical responsibilities that come with immense wealth, questioning how far one should go to uphold family ties.

• Impact of Trauma: It underscores the long-term psychological and emotional scars that traumatic events, like kidnapping, can leave on individuals.

• Media Influence: The role of media in shaping public perception and influencing the dynamics of high-profile cases is examined.

• Legal and Social Justice: The limited legal repercussions for the kidnappers raise questions about justice and accountability in cases involving the ultra-wealthy.

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Conclusion

Episode 489 of My Favorite Murder offers a poignant and comprehensive examination of the kidnapping of John Paul Getty III, weaving together historical facts, personal narratives, and thoughtful commentary. Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark effectively balance the gravity of the true crime story with their characteristic humor, providing listeners with a nuanced understanding of the incident and its broader implications.

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Listen to the full episode on iHeartRadio or your preferred podcast platform to immerse yourself in this compelling true crime narrative.

Transcript

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

See ahs.com contracts for coverage details including limit amounts, fees, limitations and exclusions. Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

It's a show called Trust Me. It explores cults, manipulation and extreme belief systems and it's hosted by Lola Blanc and Megan Elizabeth.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They're smart, funny, insightful women who also happen to be cult survivors themselves. They'll be talking to other survivors, experts, believers to unpack how cults work, how people get pulled in and how to get out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So stick around after this episode and listen to the trailer for Trust Me, our brand new cult podcast.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And after you listen, head over to Trust Me's feed and please hit follow so you can be there for their Exactly Right premiere on Wednesday, July 30th.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And look for Trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're gonna love this one. Trust me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye, goodbye, my savior. Hello, and welcome to my favorite murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's Georgia Hardstark, that's Karen Kilgariff, and this is the podcast you're looking for.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Here we are. Come and get us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Uh huh. Yep. New slogans. More professionalism at the top of this podcast.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Is that the attitude you're looking for?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hey, girly pop.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hey, are you a girly that likes to slay? Well, slay. We must stand on business.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right in front of us with your ears.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We stan you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I have to have my hand on my hips.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Your hands on your hips.

[Karen Kilgariff]

To do my character.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's a very like modern.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I'm trying to be modern.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's sus. At all. Oh, God, I hate it. I hate. Everybody must hate it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They must love it. Here's the thing. Is this similar to when. Well, you won't be able to answer this. I always forget. You're 10 years younger than me. When the Valley Girl song came out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And everybody all of a sudden, overnight, started talking like a Valley Girl. It drove my parents insane. And I wonder if it's just like that same kind of thing where to us we're like, oh, oh my God, we have to talk like this. It was that thing where we didn't understand there was an option to remove yourself from the trend.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because you kind of weren't. The trend was for you. You were in the trend.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Shit, man. Are we gonna get into fucking sociology now? Because I have no clue.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's light up this bong and get into our version of sociology.

[Georgia Hardstark]

See, they don't even have. It would be a vape. They don't even have bongs anymore. That's how fucking bad we are.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're like, we don't know what that is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We don't do vongs sexually. Bad for the environment.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's a fossil fuel.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, Bongs. That's right. Speaking of. And can I bring it down completely?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are you watching One Night in Idaho?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The new documentary about the Kohlberger murder. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I have not seen it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So heart wrenching. And it's by our friend Liz Garbus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's one of the directors.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Incredible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So of course it's incredible and heartbreaking. Heartbreaking. Heartbreaking. But like just really well done and not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, I gotta watch it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know. Gross, right? You gotta watch it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That story, I mean, still.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, well, you know, he just fucking pled guilty. Yeah. Thank God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, thank God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank God. Those Families don't have to sit through the trial and the appeals and the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, and hearing all of those. And the kids that lived that, like, people are trying to somehow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's the whole first episode is the kids getting interviewed. They interview everyone. Oh, my God. And that's the whole first episode. And it's just like, you know, you couldn't have found a more innocent place to have this happen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

So it's really heartbreaking. But, you know, as a true crime doc, it's good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Speaking of, we were gonna talk about Murderland. That's right. The book.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So the book just came out. It's called Crime and Bloodlust in the Time of Serial Killers by Caroline Fraser. And it's basically about the thing we've talked about, which is that between 1920 and the 90s, when leaded gasoline was legal and abundant, the rise in violent crime follows the same track of how much lead is in the air. And so it talks about all these serial killers, mainly in the Pacific Northwest because there was, like, smelt. There were all these, like, smelting just completely immoral manufacturers of arsenic and lead and just dumping everything into the sky and into the fucking water. And all these serial killers came out of it. Wow. It's so fascinating and heartbreaking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like, I'm just thinking of just like, why aren't there more? Or are there more we don't know about? Or did they go, was it like the serial killing switch flipped in some people, but then other things flipped in other people?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Probably. I mean. Well, in general, it just made everyone's IQ lower. It just kind of made, like, three generations of people less. You know, I can't think of the word. Cause I'm part of that generation.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's us, baby. That's us.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cause I was born in 1980, and so I'm fucked. I mean, and my parents. My parents grew up in la, so, like, that's just. There's just. That's a lot city.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's lead in the air. And also then the smog situation where it keeps it in the, like, breathing environment.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So if you're into history at all, I think that Murderland is a really great book. You're gonna love it. It's fascinating. It's fascinating.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I want it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. You can have it when I'm done. I'm almost done.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, good. Yeah, I can't wait. Well, speaking of the Pacific Northwest and other regions of this nation. Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We announced that we are going on tour now. We are recording this Episode, obviously Monday, four days before it actually airs. So we don't know what the status of the tickets will be when you are hearing this. So we can't really tell you what's going on. But if you might still want a ticket, give it a try. Go over to myfavoritemurder.com live all the cities. There's pages for every city there and you can go on and see if they're sold out or not.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, get those last tickets. Come to the Late Show. They're always weird. Oh, and we should tell people that the Late show and the early show are not going to be the same stories. I think we didn't tell people that. And so they don't know to get both tickets. Stay out all night.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. We haven't done Same Story two shows since our first tour where we found out by people asking us and then being overtly disappointed in our faces. Are you doing the same story for the second show?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Remember that? I think it was Seattle.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, because we said it on the stage and they. And I, like, there was a groan.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, we didn't. We're like, oh. So we double work.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Double work.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, sounds good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Double work for that night. Same dress, though. Same. I'm not fucking changing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's no. Fuck. We're changing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sorry. If you wanted to see a different dress, don't get a ticket. But if you want to hear a different story, get a ticket for the Late show and the Early Show.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're immediately making this a negative thing when in fact, people were very excited when we made this announcement. We actually asked Shannon, our social media manager, hey, do you mind co finding us some funny comments about stuff that people said? So my first one that made me laugh so hard is Courtney on Instagram said, I'm skipping my son's toddler swim class tomorrow just for the fan cult precinct.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my gosh. Son with someone else, though. Don't send him alone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Too bad. No, that baby will not learn to swim because of us.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I can hear him in his therapist's office in 20 years. My mom.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I love true crime.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This one says, I'm canceling my honeymoon. From Katie them on Instagram.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you, Katie. This one, Wild Lou from Instagram. This is must be in reference to the video that went out. It says, do you stare into each other dead in the eyes when you talk? It looks like it in these recordings. So I need to know. We just talked about that. We had to like record something that was supposed to be a promo and we're like, it's weird if we're saying this to each other, but we do stare at each other.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sell it. Sell it. Say it, Sarah. It. Say it, Sarah. It.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Have to. What if I was just slightly turned out like this?

[Georgia Hardstark]

So anyway, George, I agree. I mean, maybe you're looking at my forehead and I just don't know it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it could be.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This maybe is one of the best ones off Instagram by the wild pine. Not me wondering if I can hold my baby in so I can make the Boston date on my due date. Been waiting for this longer than her arrival.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Aw.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Here's my pitch. Have a baby at our live show. I mean, that would be a bit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It would be quite something.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You can't get. You can't pay for press like that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're the real baby.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We are your baby.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're the baby. That baby's new.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There has been a baby at our live shows before, so just, you know, make sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Little baby in headphones.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So cute.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We also had a lot of people from small towns being angry that we're not coming to their small town, which we love. Bring that passionate rage to us.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You like that energy?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I love it. Okay, well, it wasn't really. Paula McCambridge on Instagram said, I sure hope you're coming to a tiny little town in Michigan's remote Upper Peninsula, namely the historic Calumet Theater. So Paula lives in Calumet, Michigan, and that has. It's a town of 676 people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And they'll all be there. Hey, guys, it's the early Show.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They all. They have to come to every show four times.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, yeah, we got Savannah. We know you want us to come. Australia, lots of Canada. Apologies. This is, you know, this is us dipping our toe and just kind of.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Giving it a. Canada's like, we can't come to your country anymore.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our government warned against it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, Anna Rose with two A's at the bottom and two E's at the end says, want to make a quick trip to Okinawa, Japan. Kay, thanks.

[Georgia Hardstark]

By. Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, we do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. But I can't imagine that's gonna sell out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then Kay Taylor Gore said, please come remotely near Mississippi. You can even come to my house if you want.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's nice.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's a tiny little next door.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just people's houses.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's. Maria Bamford did that. Did you ever see that special?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, it's the best comedy special. It's literally like 12 people sitting around a living room, and it's kind of dark. And she's up there, and she just.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Does, like, a tour of people's houses. That's so brilliant.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's so brilliant.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's so funny. I see her at the dog park a lot, and I'm always like, hey, she's the best.

[Karen Kilgariff]

God, she's such a good comic.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, that was fun. Yeah. So thanks, you guys, for caring and being excited. We are too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, but tell me. Look me in the eye when you say that. Oh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, thanks, guys. Guys, it means so much to us.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We appreciate it. Wide eyes telling each other only.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, I saw a TikTok about someone who was like, if there's a man that you feel is somehow trying to intimidate you, don't turn away. Don't try to get away. It's like the biggest. The best thing you could do is make eye contact and widen your eyes a little bit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I just look super terrifying. That's good. I like that. I could do that in my sleep, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let the predator know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, my favorite one, though, is that is when she is being followed by this dude, and he says something to her, and she turns to him and goes, you can see me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You can see me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And starts chasing him. You can see me. How can you see me? Like, she's a ghost or something. And I'm just like, wow, that's fucking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's creative. It's effective. It's not.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it's hilarious.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Going for it. Oh, speaking of which, this is a complete left turn.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Where are you going?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Over here. Bye. Bye, Georgia.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Karen's turning. She's got. Getting something.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is a belated birthday gift for you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

For me?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. I just wanna. We have to point out that the ribbons are ketchup and mustard color. Oh, is that on purpose? Is that a hint? Well. Oh, my God. Thank you. Mm. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You said something a couple episodes ago when you're like, in my birthday, and I was like, oh, shit. Cause the. The Italian hand was huge.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I held onto that for, like, three months, though. It wasn't specifically for your birthday, but I was like, it's coming up soon enough.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. It's a hot dog phone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's a hot dog phone.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. Where did you find. Find this. Is it vintage?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our writer, Allison Augusti, found that online and was like, I don't know. It feels like you never gave Georgia anything for her birthday.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Holy fucking shit. It's like a. Like a nineteen eight.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you. And do you know this was used. This is Newman's phone on Seinfeld. Newman, the irritating neighbor. Yeah, of course he gets in trouble. One time there's an episode, and he answers his phone. And that's the phone he answers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Honestly, this might be the most amazing thing I've ever seen in my life. And it's got its original box, which is, like, so big, you know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. I'm acting like I had anything to do with it, but Alexa was like, don't you want to give this to Jordan? I'm like, yes, I do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And when was the last time you held a fucking phone in your hand? Like, hang up. Like, people, you know, it's like, slam this thing down. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hello, Oscar. Maya.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Dude, it's so weird. I love it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And you can make it either tone or pulse when you dial.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I remember the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God, there's a redial R button.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Shit. Dude, this is great. This is amazing. Thank you. Can we put it here for you?

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're welcome. Oh, my God, Yes. Hot dog phone. And we should get this made into a real landline. And eventually, people can call in on the hot dog phone. Like, one call an episode.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you. That is, like, fucking amazing. Like, I'm speechless.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yay. Okay, good. I'm glad. Cause the Italian hand.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So much better than the hamburger. Fuck the hamburger phone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fuck the hamburger phone. It's a hot dog phone. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So much better.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I really. When I unwrapped that Italian, I was like, oh, God, I don't even know. I don't even know how I'm gonna match this thing. It's so epic and perfect.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you. You did it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you, Alison.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my gosh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She had her eye. She had her eye out. She was like, how do we make this all work?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's vintage. It's in its original box. Like, that is, like. That's a chef kiss, not an Italian hand gesture.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's a yes. It's a positive. Yeah, but also, who was the person that bought that and never fucking touched it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Someone bought it as a joke for their grandma or something. Oh, yeah, right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

God, thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Grandma always ate hot dogs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did your grandma have a hot dog phone, or did someone, you know, have a hot dog phone growing up? Tell us about it at my favorite murdermail. We want to know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Call us at 1-800-hot dog.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, no comment. And tell us if you had a hot dog phone on this post. Okay. By the way, we have an exactly Right network. It's a podcast network. It's called Exactly Right Media, where the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly right shows go right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. Here's some information about them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like for example, we have a podcast called Ghosted by Roz Hernandez. And this week Roz is gagged and goosebumped for the arrival of Canadian ghost hunting duo Luke Hutchie and Matthew Finlan. They share spooky origin stories and behind the scenes moments with their celebrity ghost hunting web series Ghosting with Lou Cuchy and Matthew Finley.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So fun getting the professionals in. I love it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean Roz must have been freaking out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. On do you need a ride? Karen over there and Chris welcome comedian and musician Paul Danke. Love him. Good to see him at a party and they talk about disappointed bathtub wine and more.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I will. I love Paul Dinke. He truly is one of the funniest standup comedians. He's the guy that can play all over this great country of ours and do amazing because he's just the guy that like you want to talk to at a party. He's very likable and he is one of the first friends I made when I went back to stand up after I yeah, like my big return to stand up which was so humiliating and I made like he and I met at a show and it was like we were just immediately best friends. Love him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's the best. And over on the Knife off record, Hannah and Pasha sit down with Anna Sinfield, who is the producer and writer of the podcast the Girlfriends. And they're talking about telling stories where women win. Anna previews the new season of the show the Girlfriends Jailhouse Lawyer and Hannah shares a legal update on the Brenda Andrew case.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That is such a great podcast.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So good. It's so compelling. Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[C]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

It's hot out, which means you're probably looking at your wardrobe right now and thinking, nope. But before you start panic buying stuff on a shady website, you've got to check out Quint's Quince has the clothes that you're going to want to wear all season long. Think 100% European linen tops starting at $30, washable silk dresses and skirts. Versatile warm weather pieces you'll reach for again. And. And the best part, everything with quints is half the cost of similar brands. I mean, we have talked a lot about this brand on this podcast. I personally genuinely love quints. They have the basics that you need. But then when you're going into like a new season and thinking, hey, I'm gonna switch it up for summer and wear a nice linen skirt, you can just go on the website and find many choices for new directions you wanna take yourself. It's hot dog summer. What does that mean to you? Go onto the Quint's website and find out. Give your summer closet an upgrade with quince. Go to quince.com mfm for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com mfm to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com mfm Goodbye. What does feeling safe at home really mean to you? Maybe you think it's a strong lock and a loud alarm, but real security means stopping the break in before it happens. And with Simplisafe, you can give proactive protection for the people and the space that you love most. Security systems only take action after someone breaks in that's too late. Simplisafe's new Active Guard Outdoor protection helps stop break ins before they happen. SimpliSafe's 247 monitoring costs less than a dollar a day. And over 4 million Americans trust SimpliSafe.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So I get that ping on my phone on my app that tells me when there's someone like, on my lawn, I'm such an old lady or like, you know, walking up my driveway because I live up off the street and you shouldn't be there if you're not meant to be there. So, like, if I get the ping that someone's on my lawn and I'm like, I know something's up and I can check it before they even get to the Door or break in. In the window. It's great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So visit simplisafe.com fave to claim 50% off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and get your first month free. That's SimpliSafe.com fav. There's no safe like SimpliSafe. Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right. Is that it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think that's it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Da da, da, da, da. I think I'm first. So for my story, we're gonna go to the summer of 1973. We're gonna go to Rome. Mm. Have you been?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I have.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Of course you have.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I was recently.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I actually, for my last vacation last fall, I went to Italy. And then we've been joking about me doing a video for the Fan call where I show everybody my pictures in a real boring slideshow style and narrate them. Cause they're just. They're the pictures everyone has when they go to Italy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's called Instagram. I don't know if you've met it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I have. Not at all. I don't know her. I don't know that man.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, so we're in summer 1973, we're in Rome, and a 16 year old boy vanishes off the streets. It's not just any boy, though. It's not just any normal kid. He was born John Paul Getty iii, heir to the vast Getty oil fortune. Of course, what follows is a bizarre tale of ransom, severed ears, and a billionaire grandfather who refuses to pay up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can I just. First of all, I really love this story. I'm very excited you're about to tell it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

My dad loves to talk about how cheap Getty was.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because he can't believe that someone would be that rich and that he goes, do you know. He goes, do you know that there was no phone to use in that house? You had to use a payphone.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I have that in my story.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm so sorry.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, it's true. That's like. Everyone knows that. Apparently.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So, Hilar.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, you're that rich and you put a payphone in your castle. Like it's a castle.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What. What are you keeping it for?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, I'll tell you even worse shit about this guy, okay? But we can argue it because there is, like, an excuse for it that he gives that. I'm like, I hear you, but you're still a dick. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And so the main sources for the story are a 1974 article from Rolling Stone by Joe Eszterhouse, who is the screenwriter of such famous films as Flashdance, Basic Instinct, and your favorite movie of all time, Showgirls. Showgirls, that's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, see this? He's the screenwriter of all those. Okay. I thought he was a director.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, let's talk about J. Paul Getty. He amassed his fortune through the Getty Oil Company, which he founded in the 1950s, which kind of has a through line to that Murderland book. You know, just people using Earth's resources to get wealthy and make other people work hard and then die early for them. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And when they get the science back, that, hey, maybe your invention isn't that great for people, they're, like, too late now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They literally hide it. They literally hide it. This book is a little infuriating, I must say. Like, I bet. Anyway, that's not this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is all this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is not this. This is something else. So. But his father had been involved in the oil industry in the early 20th century. You know, the rich get richer. People in LA, of course, know the Getty family name, thanks to the sprawling Getty Museum campus. We all have been to the Getty. It's an art museum housed in several palatial buildings that are owned by the family. And we also know Balthazar Getty, the actor.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, such a beautiful young man.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The kidnapped. Yes, right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The kidnapped son's son. The grandson, some call them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But the kidnapped kid is his son. His actual son, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no. Balthazar Getty is his son.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right, yeah, yeah. How do you say. Okay, take that out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No. That was fascinating.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know where we are. Okay, so the J in this is confusing. The J in J, Paul Getty stands for Jean, like the French version of John. He names his own son John Paul Getty ii. And then John Paul Getty II names his own son John Paul Getty iii. But most people refer to the third, the kid, as Paul. So we're gonna call him that through the rest of this, just for simplicity's sake. If it gets confusing, just let me know. So Grandpa J. Paul Getty gets married five different times and has five children by the 1970s when our story takes place. He is quite literally the richest man in the world.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

With an estimated fortune of about. You're gonna laugh at this, and we could talk about it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

$1 billion.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which is adorable in today's money.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's why everything is so fucked.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So how much would that be in today's money?

[Karen Kilgariff]

70S. Billion.

[Georgia Hardstark]

70S. One billion.

[Karen Kilgariff]

One billion. Is it. 70s isn't that long ago. Is it? Yes, it is. It's 50 years. 50 billion.

[Georgia Hardstark]

7. I knew you're gonna get it wrong because it's, like, too small. It should be bigger, but it's not. But, however, this is really interesting that Ali let me know. She said, as an aside, the current wealthiest man in the world, Elon Musk, is worth about $381 billion. In fact, a fortune of that $7 billion today wouldn't even crack the list of the top 300 richest people. And then Ali wrote, just to give you an idea of how much has changed in terms of wealth disparity over the past 50 years. And they're like, I love you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. So, like, that is ab and insane and unnecessary and gross.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's what happens when you deregulate and you buy up all the representatives and everything goes crooked.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. And. And. Okay, back to our story. She wrote back to our story. Because she probably knew we'd go off on a tangent.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. I'm so sorry, but why did I put a sweater on at the beginning of this? I don't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I'm hot. Always more AC. We're over 40.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So sorry. So sorry.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you. Okay, so in addition to being enormously wealthy, Jay Paul is known for being extremely cheap, I guess, which was news back then that everyone knew about.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Well, I'm sure it's. What a fun thing to talk about, right? You have it all, and you're penny pinching.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally. Everyone loves that. And the most extreme example is that he had a castle outside of London called Sutton Place, literally a former residence of Henry viii. And he put in a payphone so his guests would charge him for long distance phone calls, which were expensive at the time. Yeah. A dime. No, no, no. Remember calling long distance when you were a kid? You got in trouble because you called your best friend from camp and.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, oh, long distance. I get you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. But I know I'm. I know, I know. I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're like. It was expensive. I'm like, a dime isn't expensive.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A dime in today's money Wouldn't be. But here's a. Here's a darker illustration of how he was so cheap. He had a son with his fifth wife, a woman named Louise Getty, who was known by the name Teddy. Their son Timmy is diagnosed with a brain tumor when he's six years old. Causes him to go blind. Jay Paul scolds Teddy for her spending on his medical treatments. Says she spent too much on them. Yep. Teddy dies from his illness, sadly, when he's 12 years old. And Jay Paul does not attend the funeral, saying he's too busy with work. So it's basically. It's basically. What's his name in the Simpsons? Monty.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah, Burns.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mr. Burns. Yeah. Think of him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. I mean, either he's a complete sociopath or he's making those decisions, and then when the, like effects of those decisions come up, he's like, I can't look at that or deal with that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, you're being kind, trying to figure it out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How the fuck do you have all that money? And that's the way you're living your life?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally. Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're miserable, then you're electing to be miserable.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Your life isn't happy. And so what's the fucking point? Yeah, Those are the people that, like, on their deathbed, they're like. Like, I wish I had. And it's always something they could have done, you know. Spend more time with my family. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. We all knew that. Spend less time with dickheads. Did you see that? Have you seen that meme? It's a guy with a strong Australian accent who says, spend less time with their kids.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And he's saying, spend less time with dickheads that the guy thinks he's saying. Okay, stop it. Okay, focus, focus. So Paul, the son, the teenager that we're talking about at the center of this story, is born in 1956 to Eugene Getty, the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know, the second. And a woman named Gail Harris. She's a San Francisco socialite. Hey, I wonder if she knew your family.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She is really good friends with my mom.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Maybe your grandma cleaned her house. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

For real? I was gonna say there's no socialites crossing over with the Kilgaris or the Pat Knights.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's like she was called in as a caterer one night for the party.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Literally.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I'm not. That sounds insulting. Maybe she cleaned her. Maybe your grandma cleaned her house. Your grandma was a.

[Karen Kilgariff]

My grandma was a maid.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A maid, Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Absolutely.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So I'm not being an asshole?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep. Not in the least.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you. Then the family moves to Rome when Paul is 2 years old. And, of course, Paul is born into a life of enormous privilege, but it's not a particularly happy one, as none of us are surprised to hear. He's a sensitive child. He just immediately is aware of the disconnect between his family and everyone else around him, spends a lot of time alone, and says he has absolutely no fond childhood memories.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, I was abused and I have fond childhood memories. You know what I mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, it's so.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No Usually it's a mix, you know? Yeah, it's a. But that's absolutely awful. Also, it makes sense if you already are disconnected, if you are like the uber wealthy anyway, because the only kids.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You meet are like, yeah, the people who work for you, their children, and they have to be nice to you or they have to come to your party and they just don't really like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That creepy sadness, sad thing. Also, he didn't have any dimes to make phone calls with.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. And like, yeah, woe is the little rich boy. We know. Like, just bear with us for this story.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, well, but I think, like, if you're gonna come in hard for that argument, it's like. But quality of life is not, as we've all learned. It's like those people. Elon Musk spends a lot of his time on Twitter fighting with people. He could literally buy himself a whale and ride it around in the ocean if he wanted to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, but I'd rather be lonely than starving, you know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

True.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, I don't know. Sometimes you're like, prior to you're starving, but you're like, how many parties did you go to in your 20s where you're just kind of like, maybe I'll steal some.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're saying that. Cause you were starving throughout your 20s, literally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And in deep, deep going to a lot of parties. And I basically was like, this is better than having any money in my bank account.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We had. We had a really good time in our 20s, respectively.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, we did.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What are we talking about?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know. This is problematic. The kids these days. No, but he loves reading. He loves hiding away with a book. He reads about oceanographers. He just loves hiding away with a book. That's his childhood. In 1966, when he's 10, Paul's parents separate and his father moves out of the country. The two never spent much time together, but at this point, their contact becomes extremely limited. It seems like the dad and the families are not in it to win it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So as a teenager, Paul, not surprisingly, has behavioral issues. He bounces from school to school. He has issues with any authority figure. And his signature move was to make himself throw up on the desk in class. I mean, that's aggressive.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's wild.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

My cousin Stevie used to hold his breath until he passed out when he didn't get what he wanted.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Holy shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And he would do it all the time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my. Why haven't I been using that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know, right? It's pretty. It's a wild One. But that's, like, intentionally throwing up. Yeah, that's pretty.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's like a. That's a sign.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Stevie's thing was more internal. It's like he did it to himself. Yeah, but that's. You're doing it to everyone else.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So gross.

[Georgia Hardstark]

However, he's still actually popular, surprisingly, with other students. Cause they, like, agree with him that this sucks enough to make yourself throw up on. Who knows what the story is there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Maybe they just thought it was cool.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Despite these major issues, Paul is actually his grandfather. His dick of a grandfather's favorite grandchild. And J. Paul tells him that repeatedly. And then around this time, Paul's dad, Eugene, who left. Mary's a. Another woman. Her name is Talitha Pole. And she dies tragically young at the age of 31 in 1971. Maybe from a heroin overdose, maybe cardiac arrest due to the mixture of alcohol and barbiturates. It's like, a little suspicious, a little sus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And so all this is to say that in 1973, Paul is now 16 years old. He's incredibly privileged, and his life has also been incredibly chaotic. He's a cutie pie. He's got the, like, long 70s curly hair. What was that, like, Name some heartthrobs from the 70s.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Andy Gibb, Leaf Garrett.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's got Leif Garrett vibes. Slash. What was the other one? Who was the sibling?

[Karen Kilgariff]

All the siblings on Eight Is Enough.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, in the, like, their band. They all had a band.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Osmonds.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Osmonds. Oh, Donnie, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Donny Osmond.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is that right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's the one that had the big teeth. And he's Mormon.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, here. Look at his face. He's got Donny Osmond vibes. Kind of. Leaf Gate. He's got that, like. Cute.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, he's cute. And he's kind of like. He actually looks like Danny Bonaduce from the Partridge Family. Is that who you were thinking of?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Probably all of the above.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's kind of a mix of all of them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. He's like a little cutie pie. He looks like his sweet little face.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. He looks like the kind of boy that you would pick because you would think he might, like. It's not like he's. He's dashing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And he looks like he's gonna be so hot when he's older, too. Like, he has. Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Because he has almost like a poetic, winsome kind of face.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, totally. Don't get sad.

[Karen Kilgariff]

His mother looks like Julie Christie.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Anyway.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no, I know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

His Grandpa looks like Monty Burns.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Give me a dime.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know who, you know who played him in the movie that came out recently?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Donald Sutherland. Yes, I saw it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But who did Christopher Plummer play?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Christopher Plummer. Oh, did Christopher Plummer play it? Not Donald Sutherland, I think.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, but he looks like Donald Sutherland. But you know, Kevin Spacey was cast originally and that's the movie that they had to stop and redo because of the allegations against Kevin Spacey. And so Christopher Plummer took his place.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that's amazing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And got nominated for an Oscar. The movie's called all the Money in the World.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did you see that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I'm thinking of the one they made on fx.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I think that was Donald Sutherland. Cause I just remember the fucking phone. The phone with the. Like he made a normal phone into a payphone.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it looks like he looks like Donald Sutherland.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And Christopher Plummer, he's living at this point in an apartment with friends at 16 in Rome. Not really going to school, partying with celebrities and fucking Rome. Like Jack Nicholson and Faye Dunaway. There's a huge disco scene in Rome. Like, take me there. Can you imagine?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In the 80s, in the 70s, early 70s. So like every. Oh, shit. Everything is a go.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, the people there are so good looking.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are they? I bet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, just like, they just are. It's like they're like chic and good looking in the day to day.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. When he's not out partying, he's mostly. He mostly hangs out in the Piazza Navona. Mm. Did you go there?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Probably.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's a popular tourist destination in the center of Rome with this famous fountain.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Dude, did I tell you my Trevi Fountain story really quick?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's not Trevi Fountain, but it's. Yes, it's a different one. It's a different fountain, but yes. No, you didn't tell me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just that it was blocked off when we were there because they were redoing everything for the jubilee. But people, of course, still went and stood in front of the fence that was in front of it while they were cleaning it. And somebody. Somebody near the front tried to throw a coin over the fence so they could still. Even though it was like drained and stuff, but they ended up throwing it backwards accidentally and just hitting somebody else. And it was the.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's good luck.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so funny. It was so hilarious. And the person in the back got so mad where they're like these fucking tourists. Like there's so many tourists.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. I know, it was wild. How was the Bezehouse wedding though?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh my God, I loved it. I loved Kim's outfit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Kim?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Kim Kardashian. She was all over that thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, we're back.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So I did not go to Jeffrey Bezos.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She wasn't even invited.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He is not talking to me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She gotta save the date and then no invite. Like how rude is that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

They change their mind.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So Paul has some walking around money from his mother, but since he's not yet an adult, he doesn't have access to the family's fortune. I'm sure he does. Fine. Yeah, he sometimes sells paintings for money. But that said, everyone in Rome knows that Paul is a getty. You know, his name, gets him into clubs and parties and unfortunately it also winds up getting him kidnapped. In the very early morning hours of July 10th in 1973, 16 year old Paul has been out partying and now he's wandering the streets of Rome as you did when you were young.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What a place to wander around drunk and high.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And like the lights coming up, it's so beautiful.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's an unbelievable city.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You've had a couple aperol spritzes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Get out there and get some coke. Get some coke. And just a general like totally unrealistic life up until that point.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm 16 and everything's ahead of me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And everyone kind of likes me because even if they can't get something from me in that moment, maybe later.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Doot, doot, doot. And then he gets hit over the back of the head.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wait, so is he walking by himself?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It sounds like he's by himself. He stops at a newsstand to get a magazine and a Mickey Mouse comic book, which is like, oh, he's a baby. He is at least drunk, if not more. And so a white car pulls up with four guys in it. They jump out and they hit him on the back of the head with their pistol butts and then put a cloth over his face and he thinks it has chloroform on it. Cause he passes out. He wakes up sometime later in the moving car. He's blindfolded and the back of his head is bleeding and his wrists and ankles are tied together. The kidnappers drive Paul for about six hours. And there was no air conditioning, I bet either.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When they stop, they carry Paul out of the car. He gets the sense, he later says, that he's in the mountain area cause of the wind. And he worries the kidnappers are gonna throw him off a cliff. But instead they lie him down on a blanket on the ground. So he doesn't know it's for ransom yet. He's just like, I've just been kidnapped. Every few days, the kidnappers move Paul to a new location. They feel mostly outdoors to Paul, who remains blindfolded. But sometimes he could tell. He's like in a little hut or something. After what feels like a few days, the kidnappers bring him a pen and paper and ask for his grandfather's address because they want to send him a ransom letter.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And Paul has to write it. And he like, considers, like, trying to write in code, trying to get, like just somehow a message across. And he's probably starving and hurt, and he's like, I can't even think of how I would do that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So he just writes the letter.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Here's how I would do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Dear grandpa, you've always been so generous to me. I know that this won't be a big deal to you because I know how much you don't care about money.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's not him. It's not him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is not him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Then they wouldn't know it's him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, he'd be like, something's terribly wrong.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Something's wrong. That's a good point. So he does that. And now Paul knows that it's definitely a ransom kidnapping. And he knows that his grandpa is tight fisted. So he is like, I'm screaming. Yeah. He's not like, oh, good, maybe I'll survive this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's like, shit, I'm living in this hut from now on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, right. Paul has been kidnapped by a group called the Andranghetti, a mafia syndicate that operates out of Calabria, which is all the way in the south of Italy. It's the toe of the boot. And in the 1970s, it's still a very poor area and very much run by the mafia. At first people think that there's evidence that he, like, helped with the kidnapping to get some money himself.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cause he's 16 years old that lives by himself on Rome. He doesn't have a ton of money to his name. But it's quickly shown that he has nothing to do with the plot.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He knows that's not the way to do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's like, they're not getting ransom money and I wouldn't get any of the ransom money that you guys got. So he has nothing to do with it. Okay. So then on July 18, the ransom letter arrives. One to Gail, the mother, and one to J. Paul Getty the grandpa. Gail's letter says, quote, dear Mummy, I have fallen into the hands of kidnappers. Don't let me be killed. Arrange things so that the police don't intervene. You must absolutely not take this thing as a joke. Try and get in contact with the kidnappers in the manner and the way they tell you. Don't let the public know about the negotiations if you don't want me killed. He's like, please don't take this as a joke. And, no, this isn't just me running away. Like, I know I've done shitty things and, like, weird stuff in the past and I party all night, but this is not that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You have to get all of that said in one letter of, like, okay, we don't hang up, but in a letter.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, exactly. It's horrible. I wanna live and to be free again. Don't publicize my kidnapping. Pay. I beg you. Pay as soon as possible. If you wish me well. This is all you have to know. If you delay, it is very dangerous for me. I love you, Paul. End quote. And to his grandpa, he simply says, quote, I know we haven't been very close, but I hope you know that I love you. Please do whatever you can to get me out of here. This is serious. Love, Paul. That's kind of like all he can.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, he doesn't. He knows the other way won't work.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally. Despite Paul's warnings not to publicize the kidnapping, the news gets out and J. Paul Getty releases a statement to the press saying he doesn't plan to pay any ransom. And now let's play devil's advocate. He says, quote, although I see my grandson infrequently and I'm not particularly close to him, didn't need to say that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That didn't need to be no connection.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, no, don't care. I love him nonetheless. Like, just say you love him. You don't have to. Okay. However, I don't believe in paying kidnappers. I have 14 other grandchildren, and if I pay one penny now, then I'll have 14 kidnapped grandchildren, end quote. Which is, yeah, don't negotiate with terrorists. Like that makes sense.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, it does. It completely does.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But you're still in a hard place.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But also, the way he's lived the rest of his life makes no sense. So it's like, suddenly he's making all kinds of sense where it's like, cough up the fucking brain cancer money, would you, please?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, what are you doing? Brain cancer was holding your kid ransom before and you didn't care.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ouch. Yeah, so I suggested that, but then you put it into the perfect statement. Oh, yeah, so now it's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You were being subtle.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're being mean, not me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just kidding.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Don't be mean.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You'll never be allowed in the Getty again.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And, like, on the banned list. Fine. I don't like museums anymore.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Your picture's right there in the ticket booth.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My painting is right there in the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did you say I don't like museums anyway?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just kidding, Gail. The mom instructs the kidnappers to speak with the family lawyer, and they have the rest of the correspondence with him. They tell the lawyer that they want 10 billion lira, which is about 7, $17 million. You want to guess what that is in today's money?

[Karen Kilgariff]

$17 million. 10 billion lira would in today's money be 30 billion lira, which would be roughly around. Well, you said no already.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, no. I thought you were saying 30.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, 25.

[Georgia Hardstark]

122 million.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So they went. They went high.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, they did.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The kidnappers go back and forth, negotiating with the lawyer for weeks. Negotiating for this person's life turns into months. And meanwhile, the Italian police have basically dismissed the whole thing, saying it's either a hoax or that Paul himself orchestrated the kidnapping. So no one's taking it seriously.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Again, that thing the police do where they're like, no work for us here. Cause we've theorized that there is no work for us here.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know what? I bet that's what they said. I bet it's this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I bet it's not real.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. While this is going on, Paul's kidnappers continue to move him around. He's gotta be so fucking bummed at this point. Eventually, they march him for eight hours up a high mountain to a cave. And he thinks later that it's an abandoned Nazi bunker. So he's not anywhere comfortable in October of 1973. Okay, this is when it gets serious for him. They say that they're going to give him a haircut. And he is like, oh, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thinking they're about to slice off one of his fingers. But they do give him a haircut. And then they pour alcohol all over one side of his head, and they cut off his ear. And you can see it in the photos later. Like, ear is gone. Not a tip of the ear. He cut off his entire ear, which is so. Just sad. He's in excruciating pain. He fades in and out over the next couple days.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, can you imagine? Can you? Like, I cut my finger so often when I feed my damn Dogs. Because I do that, like dog roll or whatever that I'm always cutting up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm like, you walk around with that for a couple days, it's like, uh huh. This is so awful. It's your whole ear.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Your whole ear. And you're in the mountains. And so the only painkiller he really has is alcohol. It seems like they give him a lot of alcohol.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, that's. At least he has that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean. But then the hangovers. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, he can never sleep on that side.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ah. Just like the pain. The captors seal the ear in a plastic envelope with the lock of his hair. So they did cut his hair for a reason. And a letter threatening to further mutilate Paul if the negotiations keep dragging on. They mail it to an Italian newspaper. Cause they're like, maybe they're the only ones who will give a shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which is smart. But here's the problem. This is. So there's a postal strike going on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So the ear takes three weeks to arrive at its destination. Like what bad luck? That's horrible for him. Horrible. Right. It's just like, just like a shitty thing also.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just like, why can't they just place him somewhere? I mean out in the countryside or whatever. Just like moving him around and always keeping him like in a cave or somewhere exposed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Go drop that letter off at the. Yeah, yeah. There's no CCTV at the time. Like just throw that letter, letter somewhere and.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't mail it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Put him in a basement.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Once it does get there in mid November, the reporters contact the Getty family and the police. Though the police still think the kidnapping.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is a hoax, they're holding on Paul's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mom, Gail doesn't have access to that kind of money herself, you know, of course. But at this point, Paul's father, Eugene J. Paul Getty ii, finally gets in touch. He's not in Italy and he doesn't want to come back to Italy because he's wanted for questioning in his second wife's death. Remember, she died of a possible drug overdose. There's not really evidence he has anything to do with the death, but it does seem fair to say that he doesn't want to deal with the Italian police. So Eugene says he's willing to pay a reduced ransom for his son of 1 million, which is about 10 million in today's money, but tries to simultaneously negotiate with his ex wife Gail for custody of their children if he pays it. So he turns this into thing about. About himself. Right, of course.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like he has to get something out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Of, yeah, I'll do it, but I'll save your son. But the kidnappers reject the offer, saying they want 2.9 million, which is more than 20 million in today's money. They're like, you're negotiating for your child. His ear's gone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I feel like my family would, like, get us some sort of a chili cook off together and raise money. You know what I mean? Like, this idea that he has to keep passing it from relative to relative. You'd like to think.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you wonder, though, like, if they saw the ear, if they'd know it was his ear, like, would you be able to, like, pick your own ear out of a lineup? I don't know if I could.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I could. I just have. I have big ears.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So I think I'd be able to be like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you think they think it was, like, a big Lebowski little toe situation where, like, this could be anyone's little toe?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's very true.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You should have done something more recognizable.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. An ear is tough. Although they say they can use them to identify people, like. Like in aging and stuff like that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, that's true. Yeah. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But not separate from the head.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, I don't know what people can do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let us know. Forensic people who are in, please write in. Please let us know. So they want 2.9 million. It's only at this point that the family patriarch, J. Paul Getty, the OG the world's richest man, says he'll pay, but he actually only pays 2.2 million. Just as this is like, a final fuck you, I'll pay it, but I'm only paying 2.2 million because that's the maximum amount that's taxed. Deductible. What in the actual.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

These people, like, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

And he's. He's also like. And I minused every time I had to make a phone call about this. And that's. That's over a hundred dimes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He pays 2.2, but to get to that 2.9, which they still want, he then gives the rest of the amount to his son to pay that part of it, so he doesn't have to pay taxes on it, but he gives it to him as a loan with interest. Good Lord.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, that's like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Diabolical. And also, like, it's mental illness at that point. You just can't not track money.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. All while the Italian media is running photos of his teenage grandson's severed ear. So I think people were probably, like, felt Pretty bad for Paul.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, it was actually the kidnapper's best move was to just send that ear to the press or just like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. The Getty family hires an ex CIA officer to handle the exchange. And in December, he leaps packages of money along the side of the road in Calabria. The captors tell Paul that they've received the money, but they have to wait until the next day, Monday, to release him because there's a gas shortage in Italy and no one is allowed to drive anywhere on Sundays. Like, dude, what is happening? I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was a bad time in Italy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thankfully. The next day, the captors blindfold Paul, bring him to a car, drive him to a remote location, and leave him on the side of the road to be picked up eventually, and I don't know how long that is, the local police find him cordless. Dude. Paul arrives in Rome to a huge amount of attention from the press and from bystanders. He's mobbed at the police station. Eventually, his mother takes him to a private clinic to recover. And then he goes to the Alps to rest and rebuild his muscles by skiing, which is like. That sounds nice, you know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. You can also do. Do that in physical therapy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right? Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like, that's. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The Italian police ultimately arrest nine people for the kidnapping, but only two are ever convicted. Most of the ransom money is never recovered. Oh, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So they kind of got away with it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Some people got away with it. Gale, the mom, suggests that Paul calls his grandfather to thank him for paying the ransom. But J. Paul Getty doesn't come to the phone. Yeah. To say, you're welcome for the ransom. My grandson, the Getty patriarch, dies about a year after his grandson's kidnapping. And everyone said good riddance with a.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Roll of dimes clutched to his chest. I mean, that's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A roll of dimension.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I can't let it go because phone calls used to be really cheap.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Listen to me. Like, harboring the local. Only thing. Like, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was really expensive long distance.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I wish I had, like, a really happy ending to this. We all want him to, like, go on to a happy life of charity and giving and everything, but unfortunately, he doesn't. He grows up, gets married, moves to New York, has a son, the actor Balthazar Gettysburg. He's not surprisingly, forever traumatized by his kidnapping, of course, and will always struggle. He struggles with substance abuse and alcohol abuse. He's just not. There's no therapy for him. I'm sure it's just he's like, not just the kidnapping, but that your family wouldn't pay it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. It's this idea of, like, your value.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's nobody for you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're valuable. Yeah. No one's on your side. No one's gonna fight. Like, hell. No one's gonna do anything.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That sucks.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And in 1981, when he's only 25, he suffers an overdose. And this causes him to have a. Which leaves him paralyzed and unable to speak for the rest of his life. And he's in a wheelchair. It's so heartbreaking. There's photos of him, and it's just like. You try to see the man he could have been.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it's just. He never had a chance. Wow. Paul's mother, Gail, cares for him full time after that. And in 2011, he dies at the age of 54. Wow. And that is the sad story of the kidnapping of John Paul Getty iii.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That sucks.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, dang.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's just tragedy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cause I'll be honest. When I was watching the FX series Trust.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Trust. Yeah. I wanna watch it now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's great. And of course, like, it's really well done. But I stopped watching. Cause I think it was a miniseries, if I'm not mistaken. So, like, if that is the case, then after three episodes, I was like, I just don't. The people that played the Italian kidnappers were hot, hot, hot.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And wearing, like, 70s, like. Like a leather jacket with like a big V. Very disco hot.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So that was fun.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ooh, I wanna watch it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But then after a while, you're just like, oh, yeah, this sucks. And this is kind of this human condition where we get this idea of, like, if I have X, it'll make me happy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, we know that because, like, many people have been broke and that there's nothing worse than when you're stressing about.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, it's the worst time off of your life. The stress of. It's horrible being broke and it makes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You desperate and all those things. But it's like. But there's a desperation to being on that other side, which is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's hard to empathize with. But, you know, this is what we do as people.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But I just think it's really important that we care for the billionaires at a time like this in America.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Try to understand the billionaire's point of view.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're sad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They have so much art. That's all they have.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're joking, clearly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Please don't add us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Please don't take anything we say too hard.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God. Do you have something happier?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, I do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Are you ready to turn it around?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Please. Sofa.

[C]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

Your dog has never paid rent, helped with the taxes or remembered your birthday and yet you will do anything for them. So let's start with dinner. Just Food for Dogs is the original fresh dog food brand and has been cooking up vet nutritionist formulated recipes since 2010. Their complete and balanced recipes are made with human grade real fresh ingredients that you can actually see. No more dried up mystery pebbles. The brand is the number one vet recommended fresh food brand. They're committed to research and education so you can feel confident that you're selecting the best nutrition for your dog. You know, having dogs for as long as I've had, you can really tell in the dog's eyes and coat and basically general attitude if they like their food and if their food is good for them. And when you feed your dog just food for dogs, you can tell that this is real food. It's healthy for them, it's the best choice you can be making and that feels feels really good as an owner that you know that you're giving your dog the thing that you refuse to give yourself. So go to justfoodfordogs.com and get 50% off your first order. Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Your cat's too mysterious to tell you what's going on, so let their litter do the talking. Pretty litter is the high performance cat litter that controls odors, absorbs moisture and changes color to help detect potential health issues in your cat. And Pretty litter is ultra absorbent, lightweight, low dust and one six pound bag lasts up to a Month. It's the cat litter that gives you peace of mind. Their crystals will change color to indicate early signs of illness in your cat, such as urinary tract infections and kidney issues. And the best part, Pretty Litter ships free right to your door so you'll never run out. I recently had to move my cat box upstairs near my bedroom because we were doing some work downstairs in the house, and I was so nervous about all the dust and the smells. And then I remember we used Pretty Litter, and none of those things are problems anymore, so it was totally fine having the cat box up there. Thank you. Pretty Litter Litter. Right now, save 20 on your first order and get a free cat [e-mail] mfm that's prettylitter.com mfm to save 20% on your first order and get a free cat toy. Pretty Litter.com MFM Pretty Litter cannot detect every feline health issue or prevent or diagnose diseases. A diagnosis can only come from a licensed veterinarian. Terms and conditions apply. See site for details. Goodbye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This one's light and fun.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I have to put my sweater back on. I'm 55.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so hot in here right now. I don't know why.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I got colds.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm sweating.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is all I do all night long.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Back and forth, back and forth.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm just like, get away from me. Hold on a second. I'm dying. Okay, Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I also found out that when you're on SSRIs, as I am, it makes you intolerant to temperature changes, especially if heat.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, so now you're, like, extra sensitive.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So when I'm at a party, I'm like, it's hot, right? It's hot, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like boiling.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's not just me, okay?

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're not alone. It's hot to other people, too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's hot to other people with depression, too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Other people, Menopause, depression, a lot of us. Random heat syndrome, where you're just hot. Hot for no reason. People who run hot. Okay, so my story today takes place in Franklin County, Kentucky, which is home to the state capitol. And what's the Kentucky?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Louisville.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. Frankfurt.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Damn it. Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I wrote that's right. Frankfurt. No matter what you were gonna say, I was gonna pretend you said Frankfurt.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You really believed you had it right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I was so excited. Oh, that's embarrassing. Now Franklin is gonna be mad at me, and Louisville is gonna be mad at me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It doesn't matter. Everyone's always Mad at us. It doesn't matter.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Now we have to go there on tour. Now we have to add a date.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Here we come. Frankfurt, here we come. Franklin county, here we come.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's what I meant. I said Frankfurt.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Frankfurt is the city and Franklin county is the area.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All of it. Sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And we're probably pronouncing it wrong also because it's Frank Fort, which I'm sure, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's actually Fort. The fort Is silent. Isn't silent.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It sounds like Appalachia. Okay, give us an. What is it called? Mnemonic aid. And we will remember always. So this part of Kentucky, this Carter's Kentucky, tends to be pretty quiet. The population of Franklin county is around 50,000. For everybody. That means.

[Georgia Hardstark]

For everybody.

[Karen Kilgariff]

For everybody. That means every resident of Franklin county can fit in Dodger Stadium.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow. Shut up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So it's small.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's crazy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

People wise. So when Franklin county made headlines In October of 2013, the people who lived there could not believe it. Because it wasn't just the local paper or the local news station that was reporting. The case that was being talked about was on the national news. And then it went international.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Uh. Oh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But it wasn't the kind of case that normally gets that level of press. You could say it's actually a very Kentucky crime. Dozens of cases of bourbon had gone missing from one of the state's most well known distilleries, a distillery called Buffalo Trace, which is based right there in Franklin County.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's good shit, right? That's what's in this cup right here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's just all bourbon, Just like a.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Glass of warm bourbon.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's seven fingers of bourbon in Georgia's travel mud. So, you know, bourbon going missing normally would not ignite a media frenzy, but it was no ordinary bourbon. It was a very rare whiskey with a cult following. A single bottle could sell for thousands of dollars on the black market. What it was called Pappy Van Winkle. Oh, you heard of this?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't think I've heard of this, but I know Pappy Van Winkle.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, you do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't think I know this. Oh, for sure. I like bourbon.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So this is the story of the Pappy Gate heist and the man who'd find himself at the center of it all. And his name is Toby Kurtzinger.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow. I don't know this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, so the sources that Marin used for the story today are reporting by the Lexington Herald Ledger. There's a magazine called Garden and Gun, and that's real. There was an article in it by a journalist named Guy Martin entitled what Netflix Gets right and wrong about Pappy. So it's like the definitive, like locals knowing the story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We are so the coastal elite. It's crazy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. For gardening gun.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, hey, we have gardens and guns out here in California.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We got both.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We got both. But I don't think we have a lot of magazines about it. And then of course, two episodes of the Netflix series Heist that feature this story. And the rest of the sources are in our show notes. So this all begins in 1988, because that's the year that a young man in his late teens named Toby Kurtzinger is hired by the Buffalo Trace distillery. So Toby starts out working in the warehouse, and then over the next two decades, he basically moves around to different departments at the distillery. He works in shipping, then he works on the loading docks. So he has a very good understanding of how this distillery works. And on that Netflix show Heist, Toby explains firsthand that when he first starts working at Buffalo Trace, he isn't a big whiskey guy himself, but it is part of the workplace culture. Could imagine everybody drinks. He picks up the habit quickly. And according to Toby, everybody who works there also dips into the distillery's bourbon supply. It's not unusual for employees to head home with a bottle or two or three.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it's mostly tolerated and probably actually even expected. It's probably great business. Yeah. It's like you put that up in your cabinet and you pour it to your friends when they come over and then that's just more business. Totally. So basically a little missing inventory here and there does not draw much attention. And again, everyone is drunk, so who's to say? Just kidding. I put that in. So outside of work, Toby's world revolves around the local adult softball league. He and his teammates are a tight knit group and they take the game very, very seriously, as men love to do with casual sports outings. They actually go start lifting weights at the local gym together. They're always trying to get bigger and stronger and more intriguing. Intimidating on the field.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hit that ball harder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know what Toby even starts taking steroids first.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fucking softball. Yes, friend.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean. Cause winning is everything.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And softball is everything. I told you about the year I played entertainment intramural softball. When I was on speed? No, in the 90s.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Anyone cool on the team?

[Karen Kilgariff]

On our team.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. That you can brag about?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Mr. Show's Jon Ennis. Oh, Mr. Show's David Cross. There you go. There was a lot of good People. I had one game where I was so high and I was so good at this game that people applauded for me at the end of the game.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Holy shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I was just like, oh, no, I'm just going faster than everybody else. I'm just like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My brain works. Yeah. Just trajectories and shit. Make total sense to Karen Calgara.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I am into doping for sports. I think it works.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It works.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It works. It works. It makes you work it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So he's now beefed up and great at softball. And of course, he meets a woman at the gym named Julie Sparks fly. They get married in 2001 when Toby is around 30 years old. And they quickly have two children together. And Toby loves his family, but he does have trouble adjusting to marriage, like the responsibilities of marriage and fatherhood. He still is spending all his time playing softball, his passion, and of course, working out. So that means his wife Julie, who is a very, very busy real estate agent, has to pick up all the slack.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So she is forced to give Toby the ultimatum. His family or softball.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, that's just not something you picture in your like 10 year plan of life as like fighting with your husband about softball.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No. You know, but I, it makes sense that, like, I think if you, you didn't play sports in high school.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I, I didn't, I did drugs in high school, so I. But I played sports. I played soccer before. Pretty, like aggressively.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And you were very good at kickball afterwards. Words. In the, in the 2000s when. Kickball.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah. Good. Play kickball in rehab. No, I got really good at table tennis because.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But I mean, I think that's that thing where, like, I remember I wasn't even that good at softball, but when I left high school, I would have dreams about playing it all the time because it was just this kind of ritualistic. This is how I spend my time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. I'm not making fun. Like, everyone should have their hobby. But when it gets in the way of your family, then it's like, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You gotta, you gotta come on. And also, women don't get the choice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Which is the thing I think people are starting to realize now of like, yeah, you just get to go play softball after work.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There is slack and you're not picking it up, bro.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Pick it up. So he picks family over softball. Sure, he's a decent human being, but there is genuine grief over having to quit the team.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I have to quit. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cause she's like, you gotta come home at night. Yeah. So now we fast Forward to a night in 2000. Toby invites one of his old softball friends over. He never names this person, but in their hang in his man cave. Just kidding. I added that in. He decides to pull out his special bottle of 20 year old Pappy Van Winkle for them to drink.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Pappy van winkle by 2008 is worth around $1,000 a bottle.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I had no idea.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, and it's worth more on the black market.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So this is the stuff. It's. Cause it's aged for 20 years and all that. Whatever. It's very specialty. And so of course, course he wants to treat his friend and it's their special night and fun times. And Also here's why 20 year Pappy is so expensive. Because since its debut in 1994, this bourbon has been recommended, heralded and celebrated by everyone from casual drinkers and bartenders to whiskey experts and celebrities. The most important one being Anthony Bourdain.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So that's like his favorite connoisseur, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah. He talked about it a lot. I fucking can hear Anthony Bourdain saying.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Writer Paul Wachter reports for New york magazine. Quote, 20 year old Pappy Van Winkle has become the most covetable whiskey on the planet. Its defining characteristics are an unusual sweetness and an uncannily long, complex finish that's described as having the flavors of everything from cigar boxes to coconut to dried tangerine.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We gotta ask Paul Holz about that. He's a connoisseur too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, I wonder if he's tried it. Yeah, call him on the hot dog phone. Wouldn't that be amazing? Yeah, if you pick up that phone. Any host.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's go straight to Paul Holes. Oh, any host.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, you're right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Straight to follow. Ask him a question. Hey, is it illegal to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And he has to pick it up there by his fish tank in his office where he records all his tank tops. Okay, so over the last three decades, the hype around Pappy Van Winkle has snowballed so much that Buffalo Trace, which has a very long, very specific distilling process for this particular bourbon, just can't keep up with demand. They're only able to produce about 7,012 bottle cases a year. Okay, so for example, Jack Daniels produces more than 10 million cases of Black Label whiskey every year.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, seven. How'd you say? 700?

[Karen Kilgariff]

7,000.

[Georgia Hardstark]

7,000. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So a thrillist article describes 20 Year Pappy as, quote, the sort of thing that millionaires will fight each other for.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Guys, Guys, guys, guys. You're softball and Thousand Dollar Whiskey. Come on and listen. My husband's into professional wrestling, like a lot, so I shouldn't be judging other people's hobbies.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I love any British film that involves Jane Austin in any way, shape or form.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's what yours is. Yeah, that's mine. Cats. Just cats.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cats. Cats.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cats. I would have all the cats.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hardcore cats and vintage.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I also like to swim and read. Okay. So it's obviously a big treat when Toby pulls this bottle out to share it with his softball friend. It seems possible that his friend has never even seen a bottle of 20 or Pappy before because you cannot find it on liquor store shelves. And the lucky shops that do get it in only have a few bottles like a year. Then they have to decide. The liquor store has to decide how to sell it. So some stores have years long wait.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Holy shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Other ones raffle them off, like have a random drawing to see if they get their Pappy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I had no idea.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, you might be able to find a restaurant or a bar that has it on the menu. But a single shot of 20 year Pappy will likely cost you at least $250. $100.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Damn it. That's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I just realized as you were guessing, I was like, this is probably anticlimactic.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's what I was thinking. With the other one, I was like, don't guess. You shouldn't guess. It's not that fun. Fun? Yeah. Okay. $100 for a shot, though. That's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

For a shot.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's ridiculous.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So when Toby brings out the Pappy to impress his guest, it works. His friend is so excited to be getting to drink it. He even asked Toby if he can buy the rest of the bottle they're drinking. Right then and there. Toby does his friend one better. He pulls out two more bottles of 20 Year Pappy and he offers them up like, you can buy these from me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And the friend happily takes the bourbon and returns the next day with a bunch of cash for Toby and a request from More. And in Toby's mind, it's easy money. He has easy access to this very expensive bourbon. He's never got in trouble for taking anything before from work. And he genuinely doesn't think anyone will even notice if a couple more bottles go missing. So Toby figures he's just gonna steal one or two more 20 year pappies to sell to this friend.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They weren't locking them up or anything?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No. In fact, they talk about it. They had a very Antiquated, like security system in general. It was all very lax and casual. It didn't have video cameras. The. I'll talk about it later. But the, the place where they did hold it, the hinge was broken, so you could just like open the door. Anyway.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's reminding me of the great maple syrup heist story where it's just like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's just like that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So Toby's taken it very casually. He's like, oh, well, this will be fine. But of course, when that cash starts rolling in because it is so valuable, things quickly get out of hand. Toby starts showing up at local poker with a stolen bottle of 20 Year Pappy, knowing that there will be doctors, lawyers, judges and politicians there, the kind of people who want and can afford the price of the Pappy. It sort of becomes a promotional ploy, him showing up with that bottle and basically alerting the wealthy around town that he can be their Pappy hookup. And it works. Everyone wants Toby to get them a bottle, a 20 year pappy. And he promised, promises that he can. He says, quote, you got people going, hey, I'll give you this for a bottle. And what they're offering is twice what you make in two weeks and it's tax free.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And you know, I feel like it's like that broken window syndrome or whatever it's called, where it's like it's not locked up. So he is assuming it's not as valuable to them as it would be. He's not breaking any. He's not breaking into anything. He's just walking in. So they must not care about it that much.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know what I mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. It's just, it's very easy to rationalize. I think that's like why religion was started, because if people are left to their own devices, they're just like, it's not that bad. You know, like, that's a. We've told the story many times. Like one of my first jobs, I worked at a cafe and I was like, I deserve to take $20 out of the till at night so I can buy beer. And it's like, I did it twice. And then the manager's like, I think the janitor's stealing. And I was like, yeah, that's when, when the rationalization meets the road.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thankfully, you had that insight at least.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. And I had Home Jim on the phone who was like, there's some people. He said it like almost out of the blue one day and he's like, you know, there's some people, they just can't keep their hands out of the till. And then I was like, I know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They know that's me. That's good that he knew.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He could tell. So Toby's starting price for one bottle, $750.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it's normally like a thousand.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And he's basically like friends and family, I guess, smart. But if you go. And Maren keeps using the term black market, but I think it's like any. It's so hard to get that you would probably end up having to pay this much.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right, right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So he's kind of like, I'm your guy that can get it for you for this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But he's fulfilling these orders by simply stealing bottles from work as needed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Jesus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And as I said, the cage where Buffalo Trace keeps the Pappy has a broken hinge. So Toby walks in and out and takes it anytime he wants to. No one's looking. He can take as much as he wants. So this sales plan obviously is not sustainable. And basically, very quickly, he can't meet his own demand. He's kind of like worked it around and been like the big man at the party with the 20 year pappy, but he can't actually get it done. So he enlists some help. One of his first recruits is a friend at work who's a new father. And Toby figures he can use some kids cash. This coworker comes up with a very straightforward plan. They can steal the 20 year Pappy. That's currently staged in one of the distillery's display cases. So basically there's a bunch of bottles of it just sitting somewhere, like for show for people that are gonna be at the distillery.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's like five layers deep and you just take the fifth layer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just like the maple syrup heist.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So the men simply walk up, open the glass case, take the Pappy out, rearrange the rest of the bottles to hide the gap. That time the they take four bottles of 20 year papy, which Toby sells to a local doctor for $4,000.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Holy. No discount there, I guess.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no. It's a doctor charge him an arm and a leg. He and his coworker split that money. And then word spreads around the distillery that Toby is the go to guy for moving stolen bourbon. So a few more co workers take note. One Buffalo Trace employee from the warehouse pilfers around 80 cases of anything he can get his hands on. What, not even Pappy Van Winkle? Just a bunch of other Buffalo Trace products and dumps them on Toby's doorstep.

[Georgia Hardstark]

80 cases?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's Too many.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's not for Toby, though. He is able to sell the stolen liquor to two different buyers while no one at Buffalo Trace notices that anything is gone.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Shit, dude.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's also good faith. It's like, you know, like a small time distillery that's like, we've always treated our employees like family, and it's like, that's your mistake. So Toby says this in the Netflix series Heist. He says, quote, I was the kind of guy that you knew could get stuff. I was kind of like a mini Amazon. And if you got to talking to me and we became friends and you said, hey, man, can you help me get this? I'd help you get it. Boom. Helping you get something released. A small endorphin. That made me feel good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sure. So does stealing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And so does softball. So Toby eventually pulls a few old softball buddies into this scheme. Some as accomplices and others as buyers. One guy works as a truck driver for another Kentucky based distillery, a bigger one called Wild Turkey.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This friend mentioned having access to entire barrels of Wild Turkey bourbon. And those barrels hold around 50 gallons of liquor each. So Toby winds up moving several barrels himself. Basically, his friend from Wild Turkey pulls his delivery truck over on the road, and Toby pulls up behind him. And they just put the barrels into the back of Toby's truck, and Toby drives it home and hides it in his shed on his property.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What are you gonna do with a barrel? Sell it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The whole thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sell it to all these people that want this bottle.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But how do you bottle it even?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know. They're like, come and you have to put your head under the barrel.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You got three turns.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. We'll hold your legs up over your head.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's a great way to get people to party with you in your shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Definitely. Definitely.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So depending on the product, Toby will sell these for between 1000 and 1500 dollars, a fraction of what they're worth at the distilleries. So each barrel is valued at between 3 and $6,000, depending on the content.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So he's moving, like a bunch of liquor.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Again, no one at Wild Turkey realizes their barrels have gone missing. That's because it's such a massive, you know, business. At one point, Toby and his accomplices make off with a barrel of Buffalo Trace's high end bourbon called Eagle Rare. And Toby sells it to a woman who tells him that she's looking for a special Christmas gift for her husband. We don't know how much Toby got for the Eagle Rare. But we do know that a barrel of it has a retail value of more than $10,000.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Holy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And that also, I have the same question, which is, is he selling? Selling? Does this lady roll in a barrel of bourbon for her husband and it's like, I think so.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, like, tap that, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's kind of fun. And then you can wear it afterwards.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can go down a waterfall in it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, so by the 2010s, Toby is now in his 40s. He's been reselling stolen bourbon in a pretty messy ring made up of his friends and colleagues for years. But the side hustle does help him support his family. It's also given him a way to reconnect to his old softball buddies that he missed so much. Then, in the fall of 2013, someone working at Buffalo Trace Distillery notices something shocking. They're missing 65 cases of 20 year old Pappy Van Winkle, which is around 200 bottles of it, which would be worth $25,000 on the black market. It could be worth as much as a hundred thousand dollars.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Holy shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So for the record, Toby insists he is not responsible for all of those missing cases of Pappy. There's no security. A lot of people at the distillery know that he's doing it, so why wouldn't they do it? Yeah, I mean, you know, kind of a free for all. Either way, the discovery drums up a ton of press. Probably because some reporters refer to this as a heist, suggesting an organized, well planned, Ocean's eleven style situation. And that plus the Kentucky setting, the stolen loot being bourbon, and the name Pappy at the itself. All of this is like catnip to the media. Reporters dubbed the case Pappy Gate, and they call the thief the Pappy Bandit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Amazing. And they were bored that week.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, that's right. How fun, though, to finally. Of all the stories that come across your desk.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. Seriously?

[Karen Kilgariff]

So as the story goes international, Franklin County Sheriff Pat Melton launches an investigation. His gut's telling him it's an inside job, so his Officers interview around 100 Buffalo Trace employees, hoping for a lease. Meanwhile, Toby keeps doing it, presumably because he knows he has friends in high places. His buyers include some of Franklin County's most respected lawyers, cops and politicians. That so he must have felt untouchable. He's like, this is what the people want.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He even starts selling smuggled steroids alongside.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What? It's a different thing now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like, he's like, wait a second, I think I'm good at this. I think I can do black market shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Does his wife know anything?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, does.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It doesn't seem like if he's. Yeah, yeah. She doesn't have to testify against him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's out in the shed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, he had the barrels in the shed, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's like, honey, don't look in that shed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't go in the. In the she shed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Don't go in the. That's my she shed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's my. My. My man cave.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So here's the good news. No one at the distillery says a thing to the sheriff, so that investigation goes cold. There were no snitches at that place. They must have been proud.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So that's pretty amazing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know, right? Probably cause they're all. Maybe all a little bit involved. So a couple years pass. Then In March of 2015, a tip finally does come in. The tipster tells officers that a local man has barrels of bourbon suspiciously sitting in his backyard. And this is how Toby Kurt Singer first lands on Sheriff Milton's radar. Again, I say, do not fight with your neighbors. Do not over anything for any reason. Everything's great all the time. Because you get to that kind of shit, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's where you live.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. You can't get away from them. So before long, investigators head out towards Toby's property and they park on adjacent land, hoping to get a good look at the backyard without having to enter it, which would of course, require a search warrant. Then they decide to walk through the woods a little bit, and as they approach the property line, they're hit with a familiar smell.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

One of the officers will later say, quote, if you grow up in Kentucky, you know what it smells like. Like it's kind of a sweet smell. And when it's in a barrel like that, there's no doubt in your mind you can smell bourbon.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I can smell it in every dive bar I've ever been in. Like, you know that smell?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, you really do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow, that's. That shouldn't be. Something's leaking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, and also I wonder if it's like. That's hilarious because it's like in Petaluma at certain times a year when they turn. Like the chicken shit for fertilizer. Yeah, that's what the whole town smells like. And I wonder if it's that thing that's, like, from childhood. Yeah, you'll just get a waft of bourbon.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's the biz. Okay, so from here, I had to explain to you how smells work. From here, they easily get a search warrant. They easily get A search warrant for the shed. They find all sorts of contraband, including five barrels of Wild Turkey bourbon and a bulk quantity of steroids.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, that's. See, that's federal prison.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's his little store back there. I got everything from bourbon to steroids and more. Police also seized Toby's personal cell phone, which is bad because that's what he'd been using the entire time to move all of these stolen goods. So now the police have the names of Toby's accomplices, his buyers, even the details of the specific deals he's made. Because he's not a criminal. He's just like casual guy trying to like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Burner phone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Who needs it? I just work in shipping.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm going to get a little money.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I miss softball. I work in shipping.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, why can't I have some fun? As investigators piece together this haphazard network, they ultimately recover around 20 barrels of bourbon and two dozen bottles of Pappy Van Winkle. It's estimated that Toby and his accomplices stole and resold about $100,000 worth of bourbon in this entire scheme.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Toby's immediately branded the ringleader and he has handed felony theft charges and a misdemeanor for selling those steroids.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I guess it's not theft in sales are not. I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't either. But I guess maybe steroids aren't a full on big deal narcotic.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Maybe not as big deal. Maybe he didn't have a large enough supply intent. Maybe the intent. I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Maybe there was a mistake on the paperwork when they were filling it out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Maybe it was actually just cotton candy and they thought it was steroids.

[Karen Kilgariff]

People were so drunk on bourbon that they're like, these steroids are a mess. Amazing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're in trouble for that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's not the accent. Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't add us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Don't. Don't attack me for my generalized Southern accent. So Toby pleads guilty and he's sentenced to 15 years in prison.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We could have just called Paul Holes about the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

God damn it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Damn it. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Class A felony, yes OR no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. 15 years.

[Karen Kilgariff]

15 years. Sheriff Milton sees this as a win. He stands up in front of cameras. He declares, Pappy Gates solved. Which must have felt amazing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Anticlimactic, maybe, too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know it's no Ocean's Eleven, that's for sure. And while what Toby and his accomplices did is of course criminal, at the end of the day, police only recover a handful of stolen papi. Much of the bourbon Toby is caught with is from Wild Turkey.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Reporters from around the world are present at that sheriff's presser. And the word of Toby's arrest is covered in papers as far away as Pakistan.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

People love Pappy Gate.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did you kind of tell me that town didn't have a cold case murder to solve?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, for real.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not to be a bummer, but still.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, can't we get involved in some stuff? 10 people are ultimately indicted in Toby's bourbon ring. Several of them take plea deals. Only one person has ever tried, convicted, and sentenced, and that is Toby Kurtzinger. He will later say, quote, there's an old saying, the devil deceived me, showed me something I wanted. It felt good, it looked good. But guess what, Guess what? Sooner or later, that bill comes due.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Damn.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Very true, Toby. I mean, it's kind of. He probably kind of knew it the.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Whole time, just waiting for it to happen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How do you stop doing a thing that's so easy and seems like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And if you know you're gonna get caught anyways, like, why stop now?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just keep going until you get caught.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's like every heist movie, every kind of criminal. That's Scarface. 100%.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Amen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Toby does not end up serving the full 15 years.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Of course not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Instead, he's granted something called shock probation, which is a Kentucky program that basically gives nonviolent first offenders some leniency. Sounds like a good idea.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Great idea.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's paroled after just 30 days, and then he serves on probation until 2023. So for years.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So essentially it's just like probation. Yeah, long, long, long probation.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So those weekends of picking up trash and.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then he can't travel certain places. I don't know all the restrictions, but can't play softball. Oh, my God. What if it's softball only probation. You can't talk about softball. You can't go to the gym to work out for softball. So Toby Kurtzinger now lives a quiet life and seems basically to just be working on trying to mend his relationship with his family because there was fallout from the scandal. And of course, that's the. You know, that's the other thing that probably he never even thought of of. Like, when this actually happens, how will it affect everybody else? So to this day, the vast majority of those 200 or so missing bottles of 20 Year Pappy from 2013 have never been found.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And in an unexpected twist, this story has only fueled the bourbon craze. And prices of Pappy have skyrocketed since the news of the theft left first broke.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I had no idea.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. So bottles of 20 year Pappy that once went for a thousand dollars on the secondary market are now worth $5,000 or more.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Holy shit. Inflation. I guess.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right? And also, just like, it's even harder to get.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Legendary. Yes. Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because now they put a lock on the.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Imagine that where you keep that. Jesus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They took it all out of the display case.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Those are just plastic. So, in a weird way, this entire ordeal, while still being a bit of an embarrassment, has been great for Buffalo Trace's bourbon business. And that is the story behind the Pappygate bourbon heist.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow. Did he have to give any of the money back? Do we know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I wonder if he got fined. Probably.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Probably.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But who knows? Honestly, I'm thinking about his wife. I don't think I'd leave Vince over that. No way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No. I'd be trying to get a little cash going.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'd be disappointed, you know, but I don't think I'd divorce him over that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because it isn't really. It's liquor.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's just liquor he doesn't have the right to sell.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. And you could, like, argue about sticking it to the Man. Although I don't know if. I don't know if Buffalo Choice is the man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Are they.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Bullet, let's call the labor board.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Excuse me. Are they the man?.com needs to be called get the hot dog phone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do they deserve to be stolen from dot com? Mom, it's a family business. Then.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, no. Wow. Good one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Such a good one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Up note.

[Georgia Hardstark]

True crime, but up note.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is what we try to do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fun and flirty, but also like, serious summertime.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, It's a very hot dog phone coded episode.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It is. And that's all we try to give you people.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is that it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think that's it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. Thank you guys so much for doing this with us again.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, you know, I have to say, after six years of not going on the road, George and I were very scared to find out whether or not anybody would care if we were going on the road again. And your response? You know, hopefully we've said this already, but it really means the world to us that you still give a shit and want to come see us and are doing what you can to do that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, we can't wait to be in.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Front of you guys screaming and pointing at you and cute dresses and talking about the Pockets.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Stay sexy and don't get murdered. Elvis, do you want a cookie?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hey, it's Lola Blanc and Megan Elizabeth. We're so excited to announce the return of our podcast Trust me on Wednesday, July 30. Trust Me is a podcast about cults, extreme belief manipulation and high control groups. And we know all about it because we're survivors are still. Each week we talk to former believers, experts, and sometimes even the people still inside to analyze how these systems work and how smart, everyday people get pulled in. Because it's not just robes and compounds. Sometimes it's your friend group, your yoga studio, your unlicensed therapist. We know what this experience feels like, and we're here to make sense of it. And now you can find us on the Exactly Right Podcast network. That's right. We're so excited to announce that Trust Me has officially joined the ranks, along with Exactly Right's captivating true crime hits like My Favorite Murder and Buried Bones. Same show, same us, new charismatic leader. So if you're into cults, coercion, or just wild human behavior, you're in the right place. Trust me returns on July 30th and drops new episodes every Wednesday. Now on exactly you can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You're going to want to hear this. Trust Me. This has been an Exactly Right production.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Our senior producers are Alejandra Keck and Molly Smith.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This episode was mixed by Liana Squalacci.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our researchers are Maren McGlashan and Ali Elkin.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Email your hometowns to my favorite murdermail.com.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Follow the show on Instagram at My.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Favorite Murder Listen to My Favorite murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And now you can watch us on exactly right's YouTube page. While you're there, please like and subscribe. Goodbye. Foreign.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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