490 - Trust Me

Summary

Podcast Summary: My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark – Episode 490: "Trust Me"

Release Date: July 24, 2025

Introduction

In episode 490 of "My Favorite Murder," hosts Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark welcome Lola Blanc and Megan Elizabeth, the dynamic duo behind the newly launched podcast "Trust Me." This special episode delves deep into the intricate world of cults, extreme beliefs, and manipulation, offering listeners a profound understanding of how individuals become ensnared in such environments and the psychological mechanisms at play.

---

Introducing "Trust Me": Navigating the Psychology of Cults [02:20 - 03:50]

Karen and Georgia begin by introducing their guests, Lola Blanc and Megan Elizabeth, who have recently joined the Exactly Right Podcast network. "Trust Me" focuses on dissecting the psychology behind cults, featuring firsthand accounts from individuals who've escaped notorious groups like Heaven's Gate, the Manson Family, and NXIVM.

Notable Quote:

[03:33] Georgia Hardstark: "It's such an impressive podcast. There's a lot out there, but yours really raises the bar for the genre with the empathy and depth you bring."

---

Exploring the "Cultiest Thing" of the Week: TikTok’s Algorithmic Cult [03:50 - 12:00]

The conversation shifts to discussing the "cultiest thing" of the week, a segment where each host shares their most intriguing cult-related topic. Megan introduces "Children of the Waning Star," a purported TikTok-based cult. However, upon closer inspection, it's revealed that the real culprits are the platform's algorithm, which inadvertently promotes extreme and sensational content, fostering a pseudo-cult-like environment.

Notable Quote:

[04:19] Zach Krager: "The TikTok algorithm in itself is a cult. It pushes out the most extreme things, whether real or fake, making people believe in a fabricated cult."

Megan elaborates on how the internet, especially platforms like TikTok, create spaces where cult-like behaviors can flourish, making individuals more susceptible to manipulation through constant exposure to extreme content.

---

Red Flags and Manipulative Tactics in Cults [15:00 - 20:00]

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to identifying and understanding the red flags associated with cults. Lola and Megan discuss tactics such as love bombing, where new members are inundated with excessive attention and affection to secure their loyalty. They highlight how such manipulative strategies create emotional dependencies that are hard to break.

Notable Quotes:

[15:42] Zach Krager: "Love bombing will probably be the first thing you'll notice. Lots of personal attention; it's very addicting."

[16:23] Megan Elizabeth: "Cults limit evidence-based information, attacking science to make individuals stop believing in reality and accept the cult's narrative."

The discussion underscores that these red flags aren't confined to overtly sinister groups but can also be present in seemingly benign or even appealing communities.

---

Personal Journeys: Escaping from the Clutches of Cults [20:00 - 35:04]

Lola and Megan courageously share their personal experiences with cults, providing listeners with intimate insights into the process of indoctrination and eventual escape. Megan recounts her mother's harrowing encounter with a manipulative cult leader who exploited her Mormon beliefs, leading to a prolonged period of isolation and control.

Notable Quotes:

[21:10] Megan Elizabeth: "My mom was convinced by a man who looked like Brendan Fraser in her dream to be the new prophet of God. It was a slow, psychological manipulation that left us all deeply scarred."

Zach adds his family's story with the "two by twos" cult, highlighting the generational impact and the challenges faced in breaking free from long-standing doctrines and family ties.

Notable Quote:

[25:04] Zach Krager: "Growing up in a four-generation cult, the teachings were so deeply ingrained that leaving was a years-long, emotionally taxing process."

---

The Role of Empathy and Support Systems in Recovery [35:04 - 44:20]

The episode emphasizes the importance of empathy and non-judgmental support for individuals emerging from cults. Megan shares her mother's transformative journey from isolation to becoming an advocate for cult survivors, illustrating how maintaining connections without judgment can empower former members to rebuild their lives.

Notable Quotes:

[35:04] Megan Elizabeth: "After leaving the cult, my mom moved to Colorado City, building relationships with outsiders that ultimately helped expose and dismantle harmful practices within the group."

[39:41] Lola Blanc: "If she was just judgmental, she wouldn’t have been able to help them come out and tell their stories."

The conversation highlights that supportive relationships and safe connections outside the cult are crucial for recovery, providing former members with the strength to overcome indoctrination.

---

Modern Influences and Cult-like Behaviors [44:20 - 70:00]

Transitioning to contemporary times, Karen and Georgia explore how modern influencers and brands can exhibit cult-like characteristics. They discuss figures like Teal Swan and Benton Home Massaro, who, despite being exposed for manipulative behaviors, still draw significant followings due to their charismatic authority and certainty.

Notable Quotes:

[58:29] Megan Elizabeth: "Many influencers today operate like cult leaders, offering strong emotional connections and unwavering certainty that can be dangerously persuasive."

[60:11] Zach Krager: "Influencers often give nuggets of truth that hook people, making it difficult to discern fact from manipulation."

The hosts debate the thin line between motivational content and coercive control, emphasizing the need for critical thinking and diversity of information sources to avoid falling into modern-day cult traps.

---

Conclusion: The Ongoing Battle Against Cults [70:00 - End]

As the episode draws to a close, Karen and Georgia reflect on the crucial role of podcasts like "Trust Me" in raising awareness and providing platforms for sharing survivor stories. They underline the importance of community support and continued education in preventing individuals from falling prey to manipulative groups.

Notable Quotes:

[70:40] Georgia Hardstark: "The time has never been better for us to have a cult podcast. We're so excited to support 'Trust Me' and amplify these important conversations."

[71:56] Zach Krager: "The truth is, smart, grounded, everyday people like us can fall into cults. Awareness and understanding are our best defenses."

Karen wraps up by promoting "Trust Me," encouraging listeners to subscribe and support the new podcast as it joins the Exactly Right network, alongside beloved shows like "My Favorite Murder" and "Buried Bones."

---

Key Takeaways:

1. Cults Thrive on Manipulation: Understanding the psychological tactics used by cults, such as love bombing and information control, is essential in recognizing and preventing involvement.

2. Modern-Day Cults are Evolutionary: From online algorithms to charismatic influencers, the essence of cult-like manipulation persists in new forms, adapting to contemporary technologies and social structures.

3. Personal Stories Illuminate the Path to Recovery: Sharing firsthand experiences of escaping cults fosters empathy and provides valuable insights into the recovery process.

4. Empathy and Support are Crucial: Non-judgmental support systems empower former cult members to rebuild their lives and resist the stigmatization often imposed by society.

5. Critical Thinking as a Defense: Encouraging critical analysis and diversifying information sources can protect individuals from falling into modern cult traps disguised as motivational or wellness movements.

---

Final Thoughts

Episode 490 serves as a compelling addition to "My Favorite Murder," expanding the conversation beyond true crime into the nuanced and often hidden world of cults and manipulation. By featuring experts like Lola Blanc and Megan Elizabeth, the podcast not only entertains but also educates its audience, empowering listeners to recognize and resist the subtle and overt forces of control that can infiltrate their lives.

Transcript

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is exactly right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Life's messy. We're talking spills, stains, pets and kids. But with anibe, you never have to stress about messes again. At washablesofas.com, discover annabe sofas, the only fully machine washable sofas inside and out, starting at just $699. Made with liquid and stain resistant fabrics, that means fewer stains and more peace of mind. Designed for real life, our sofas feature changeable fabric covers allowing you to refresh your style anytime. Need flexibility? Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa effortlessly. Perfect for cozy apartments or spacious homes. Plus, they're earth friendly and built to last. That's why over 200,000 happy customers have made the switch. Upgrade your space today. Visit washablesofas.com now and bring home a sofa made for life that's washable. Sofa offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Lola Blanc]

Did you know? An American Home Shield warranty helps protect items in your home that you use every day.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If covered parts of your H vac, electrical, plumbing or appliances break, American Home Shield will fix or replace them, no matter their age.

[Lola Blanc]

You can save on a new plan.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Today our listeners get 20% off any plan.

[Lola Blanc]

Visit ahs.commfm to sign up and see promo details.

[Georgia Hardstark]

See ahs.comcontracts for coverage details, including limit amounts, fees, limitations and exclusions. Goodbye have you heard the story of the 17 children that unexpectedly disappeared at exactly 2:17am they all got out of.

[Lola Blanc]

Bed at the exact same time, walked outside into the darkness and never came back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

From Zach Krager, director of Barbarian and the studio that brought you the Conjuring, comes the movie Weapons, a new horror thriller so twisted you have to experience it to believe it.

[Lola Blanc]

Weapons only in theaters and in IMAX Aug 8.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Rated R under 17 not admitted without parent Goodbye Foreign hello, hello and welcome.

[Lola Blanc]

To my favorite Murder. That's Georgia Hardstar, that's Karen Kilgariff, and.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We have a very special show for you today because for the last five years, our guests have hosted the podcast Trust Me, Cults, Extreme Belief in Manipulation, where they dig into the psychology of cults and how they operate.

[Lola Blanc]

Each week they speak with guests who've escaped cults like Heaven's Gate, the Manson Family, QAnon, and of course, NXIVM.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Please welcome to the show the hosts of Exactly Right's newest podcast, Trust Me, Lola Blanc and Megan Elizabeth.

[Lola Blanc]

Hi.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yay.

[Zach Krager]

Yay.

[Lola Blanc]

Welcome.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Thank you.

[Lola Blanc]

Welcome. Like here and here.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're so exciting. It's very exciting. It's very exciting to see you. It's very exciting to see your outfits today.

[Zach Krager]

Thank you so much.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We worked really hard on that.

[Zach Krager]

Really nice you guys showed up with the outfits.

[Lola Blanc]

I love it. It's so funny. I probably shouldn't say this, because then I'm gonna get a bunch of DMs, but you dropped into my DMs on Instagram, and I knew your podcast and loved it. And you're like, we're leading this network. What's up? And I'm like, hell, yeah. Immediately.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I mean, it's such a good fit. I don't know. I feel like we're so at home, everyone here. So great.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, we're happy to have you guys here.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it's such a good podcast, you guys. I mean, like, it's so impressive. There's a lot of them out there, but I think it really does. It raises the bar for the genre, the way you guys talk about it and the empathy you can talk about it from. I mean, we'll get into all of it, but congratulations, and we're so happy to have you.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Thank you.

[Zach Krager]

Oh, my gosh.

[Lola Blanc]

Let's start off with the way you guys. Should we start with the way you guys start your podcast by discussing the cultiest thing you've got going on this week? Yeah, I was so excited to think of one.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay, Megan, do you want to share?

[Zach Krager]

My cultiest thing of the week is there is this new TikTok cult that's going around. It's called Children of the Waning Star.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Waning Star, Yes.

[Zach Krager]

Thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm just obsessed with TikTok.

[Zach Krager]

Okay, great. So you've seen that people are putting in the, like, star and the fingerprint emoji, and then immediately rumors are starting of, like, people are sacrificing their pets and all of these horrible things. And at the end of the day, none of that is actually happening. But the TikTok algorithm in itself is a cult. And all of the most extreme things that it can get its hand on it. Just its hands. The algorithm has hands.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Maybe multiple hands and myriad hands, Sticky hands, too.

[Zach Krager]

It just pushes it out. And the more extreme a belief, the more extreme a piece of news, whether it be real or fake, Boom, it's out there. The end. And now people think that this is a real cult. So, you know, we try to keep it topical. And that's what's happening this week.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's interesting.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's so interesting. Cause we talk about cults a lot, but then there's a whole part of the Internet that's so obsessed with cults that they'll get fixated on deciding that something is a cult.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And then they kind of become their own cult because they're obsessed with taking down this cult. And a lot of the time it's completely exaggerated or just like taken up of content, you know, that kind of thing.

[Zach Krager]

And yeah, yeah, it'll be like a small comment and then that'll be the news story.

[Lola Blanc]

It's just like the problem is the, like, solution, not the problem.

[Zach Krager]

Yes, exactly, exactly. In this particular case, although we do see a lot of real online cults popping up left and right, which are so many.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it's so wild to start to understand that people live so much online these days that to someone like me, who the Internet started when I was in my mid-20s, so I was just like, take it or leave it. But there's people who live on it constantly. So that idea of somehow suddenly following someone, being with them every day like that, getting kind of inundated by that is very common these days.

[Zach Krager]

Totally. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We're like at the peak loneliness in America, like, ever in history. So of course we're gonna look online for community and for some source of identity. And there are so many hucksters out there ready and willing to sell you on something to provide that answer to you.

[Lola Blanc]

Absolutely. Like podcasts.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. For example. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The time is now.

[Lola Blanc]

Lola, what's your cultiest thing?

[Megan Elizabeth]

I'm kind of stealing it from Megan, actually.

[Zach Krager]

Okay.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So I'm always fascinated by the way that cults and authoritarian regimes love to limit evidence based information. They like to attack science and make you basically stop believing in reality so that they can fit their own truth in there. We know that that's happening in the current Trump administration with 402 attacks on science. And there are a number of reasons for that, but actually connecting to that is a poem that somebody from Meghan's cult that she grew up in, which we will talk about, wrote, who has been accused of a lot of.

[Zach Krager]

I'm not sure if he wrote it. He shared it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

He shared it.

[Lola Blanc]

He shared it.

[Zach Krager]

Yes. But he's just been accused of acting inappropriately with minors.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, dear.

[Zach Krager]

And the two by twos, which is my call, love. A good poem. And by good poem, I mean bad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Poem, creepy ass poem.

[Zach Krager]

So go ahead, Laura.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay, I'm only gonna read the first half because this will take too long, but. Okay. If you know of a thing that will darken the joy of a man, a woman, a girl or a boy, that will wipe out a smile or the least way annoy or be the thing they hope to destroy. The best thing to do is forget it.

[Zach Krager]

All caps.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, if you know of a thing that will sadden the heart or hinder any from doing their part or cause an old wound to sting or to smart don't be the one to give it a start Be the one who can forget it.

[Zach Krager]

All caps.

[Megan Elizabeth]

All caps. It goes on this whole time.

[Lola Blanc]

I haven't needed to be on pharmaceutical so easy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You just forget your problem.

[Lola Blanc]

Why is this the first time hearing about this? Damn it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Doi. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To me, it just like, it's so fascinating because of course, somebody who's been accused of something is like, well, don't think those negative thoughts. Just forget it. Don't worry about the things that maybe make you uncomfortable or are very alarming or a crime. Just forget it.

[Lola Blanc]

Just cause something rhymes doesn't mean it's right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And that is the rhyme as reason.

[Zach Krager]

Effect that really is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Really?

[Zach Krager]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Shut up. Tell me more.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, that's a cognitive bias.

[Zach Krager]

We're more Foxy Noxy. Amanda Knox.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. She talked about that on our show at one point.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God.

[Megan Elizabeth]

If something. The easier information is to process, the more likely we are to believe it's true. So rhyming can actually make things feel more true.

[Lola Blanc]

It's like the headline. If that's salacious, it doesn't matter what's in the article.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Exactly.

[Lola Blanc]

The thing that you see first is.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Like, the rhyme or the love don't fit. You must acquit.

[Zach Krager]

Oh, I love that we're full of things like that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Actual information.

[Lola Blanc]

Right, Right.

[Zach Krager]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

What's that like?

[Georgia Hardstark]

What's your cult thinking?

[Lola Blanc]

Okay, my cult. And you could also call it as it probably is. It's weird how obsessed I've become with it as, like, what it means to my day. I'm not trying to drink it all the time, but when I do, I feel like I'm having a better day and it's become. I don't even want any other alcohol. If there's no alcohol in the house, I won't drink it. But if there's. Does that sound like I drink too much?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, how much do you drink once you finally make the decision?

[Lola Blanc]

Like a can.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay.

[Lola Blanc]

And that's the other thing, too. Like a can of wine is.

[Zach Krager]

Listen, I use Diet Coke as my cultiest thing one week, and I already shared with y'.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All.

[Zach Krager]

You guys have a plethora of Diet Coke in the refrigerator here at this Beautiful studio.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because we all belong to the cult of Diet Coke.

[Zach Krager]

And. Yeah. I think that brands or things can become culty. And they give us comfort. They give us.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, we can't. We have to get this loyalty to it. Yeah. Someone offers me a Diet Pepsi, I'm like, excuse me.

[Zach Krager]

Yeah, exactly.

[Lola Blanc]

It says something about the user or the person who. You know, it says something about me that I'm not. If I'm drinking a beer, that's one thing. If I'm drinking a. To me, it's a totally different thing.

[Megan Elizabeth]

As someone who has never had alcohol in her life, due to my Mormon upbringing, I cannot relate to this. But I like how it sounds.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, it looks good.

[Zach Krager]

And as someone who's no longer allowed to have alcohol because I've had too much of it, I also like how it sounds.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's all very, very familiar.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, I mean. Cause I was kind of. I couldn't decide because I think there's a lot of things I do in my life that are very culty or like, to fall into a little rhythm and habit. That's like something I really can do and rely on. So then it's like, great. It'll be mindless. I'll just. Every morning I'll have a vanilla latte or every. Blah. I'll do this, and it'll get me through. But lately, and it. Going back to TikTok, shopping for clothes on TikTok, where there's no way the size is gonna be right. There's no way the material is gonna be what I want it to be or what the picture looks like. It's truly rolling the dice, Las Vegas style and knowing you're going to lose. And I ordered a shirt that I tried on this morning that I couldn't stop laughing. Cause it felt like it was made of wax. It was the weirdest texture. It was the. Where I was like, well, it was only $9, so what was I thinking? That I was just gonna get a gorgeous blouse for my next dinner party? Like. And I keep going back. I won't be convinced that it's gonna not work the next time.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay. But that's because sometimes it does work. And that's intermittent reinforcement.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Which is how cold works.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. When you get a job, a $9 shirt that is actually 100% cotton. And you're like, wait, you can't find these for $80 in America. Like, there is a treasure hunt aspect to it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You get addicted to. Like, is this gonna be the good one?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Usually not, right? Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Almost Never.

[Lola Blanc]

And that dopamine hit too. Like I have the shopping dopamine hit of like, like with vintage shopping. Like finding a treasure. Yeah, but there's been so much trash and I, you know, and that doesn't matter.

[Zach Krager]

I'll still never. Yeah, same.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's hard to adjust.

[Zach Krager]

I'm obsessed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, amazing. I mean like if you liked what we just did right there, guys, you're going to, you're going to love Lola and Megan's show.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Time for a sofa upgrade. Visit washablesofas.com and discover Annabe where designer style meets budget friendly prices. With sofas starting at $699, Annabe brings you the ultimate in furniture innovation with a modular design that allows you to rearrange your spaces effortlessly. Perfect for both small and large spaces. Anibe is the only machine washable sofa inside and out. Say goodbye to stains and messes with liquid and stain resistant fabrics that make cleaning easy. Liquid simply slides right off. Designed for custom comfort, our high resilience foam lets you choose between a sink in feel or a supportive memory foam blend. Plus our pet friendly stain resistant fabrics ensure your sofa stays beautiful for years. Don't compromise quality for price. Visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your living space today with no risk returns and a 30 day money back guarantee. Get up to 60% off plus free shipping and free returns. Shop [e-mail] Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Frank Lyford]

What does feeling safe at home really mean to you? Maybe you think it's a strong lock and a loud alarm, but real security means stopping the break in before it happens. And with Simplisafe, you can give proactive protection for the people and the space that you live love. Most security systems only take action after someone breaks in that's too late. SimpliSafe's new Active Guard Outdoor protection helps stop break ins before they happen. SimpliSafe's 247 monitoring costs less than a dollar a day. And over 4 million Americans trust SimpliSafe.

[Lola Blanc]

So I get that ping on my phone, on my app that tells me when there's someone like on my lawn, I'm such an old lady or like you know, walking up my driveway because I live up off the street and you shouldn't be there if you're not meant to be there. So like, if I get the ping that someone's on my lawn and I'm like, I know something's up and I can check it before they even get to the door or Break in in the window. It's great.

[Frank Lyford]

So visit simplisafe.com fave to claim 50% off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and get your first month free. That's SimpliSafe.com fav. There's no safe like SimpliSafe. Goodbye.

[Lola Blanc]

A sleek professional website makes you look very put together, even when you're wearing sweatpants and eating cereal out of a mug.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And that's where Squarespace comes in.

[Lola Blanc]

Squarespace gives you everything you need to offer your services and get paid all in one place.

[Georgia Hardstark]

From consultations to experiences.

[Frank Lyford]

Showcase your services with a customizable website.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Designed to attract clients and grow your business.

[Lola Blanc]

And managing those payments is a breeze. In just a few clicks, you'll be able to accept payments with options like Klarna, Apple Payments, afterpay and more.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You'll get paid on time with professional on brand invoices and online payments. Plus streamline your workflow with built in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools and.

[Lola Blanc]

Get discovered faster with Squarespace's built in SEO tools. With meta descriptions and auto generated sitemaps, you'll rank higher in search results globally.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Go to squarespace.com murder for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use Offer Code murder to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

[Lola Blanc]

That's squarespace.com murder code murder.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Goodbye.

[Zach Krager]

Goodbye.

[Lola Blanc]

So let's talk about everyone's favorite thing. Red flags.

[Zach Krager]

Ooh, yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

What are some red flags? You can tell us about, like the thing. Intermittent reinforcement.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you.

[Lola Blanc]

And then the rhyming thing was called.

[Megan Elizabeth]

The rhyme as reason effect.

[Lola Blanc]

Thank you. So red flags, right?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yes, yes.

[Zach Krager]

Love bombing. Huge. That'll probably be the first thing you'll notice.

[Lola Blanc]

How does that look when it's not in a relationship? Because I know Love bomb when it's in a relationship.

[Zach Krager]

Personal, romantic, it'll just look like, oh my gosh, you're exactly a right fit for this. Lots of personal attention. Lots of everything you've been wanting and needing. Who doesn't love personal attention? It can come from a group, it can come from a person, and it's very addicting.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. I mean, the term, I believe comes from cults. Originally it was a tactic used to recruit people where the girls would go out and be like, oh my gosh.

[Zach Krager]

Do you want to come?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, agree with that one. I think also when like, okay, so I did the. Can we talk about Scientology?

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I did the like Scientology stress test one time. And what the result? First of all, the IQ test was nonsense. It was completely like, it didn't make sense. It wasn't based on IQ translating. No. But the end of it, they basically like told me how in danger I am and how they could provide the solution. They were like, you are so anxious. And I was like, yes, true. However, I'm not going to pay all of the money you are telling me to pay to go to your courses. There's like a breaking down of like, oh, no, there's something wrong with you. And then providing the solution.

[Zach Krager]

And that's, I think, why these online cults are really powerful too, because they offer easy solutions. So a lot of them start off with diets. This is our little shake regimen that I made up. And you're gonna love it. And you're like, I wanna lose some weight. Let's say, okay, I'm on my shake regimen and I'm losing my weight. Yay. Suddenly weirder and weirder things start to be introduced. But you've already been primed that it's a working, normal thing to do. And now you're in a group of other people who are doing it who are also like, no, it seems normal.

[Lola Blanc]

I've never thought of that being like a gateway to something that has nothing to do with nutrition and diet and stuff.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Zach Krager]

And we wonder sometimes if they're. If it's conscious that they went that way or. Because like once you're hungry.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Zach Krager]

You're more susceptible to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Low blood sugar going. Then when people do accept you, you're more excited. Right. It's like the lows and the highs are lower and higher.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Exactly.

[Zach Krager]

But food is just a really easy way to grab people because it's a need that we all, you know, like, it's. It's an easy one. So we can see that a lot playing out.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. And whenever there is a strong inclinations to make you feel afraid of like a different group, that's like a huge one. Because that fear is something that can then be capitalized on to again offer you a solution to all of that fear you're feeling.

[Lola Blanc]

Right. And to like, to prove you right. Because other people around you feel the same way. So. Yeah.

[Zach Krager]

Yeah. And to just simplify that and even further, it's like, even if you're in a narcissistic or abusive, which we know that gets narcissistic, gets thrown around a.

[Lola Blanc]

Lot, but I love to do that.

[Zach Krager]

But if you're narcissistic or abusive, really very soon after the love bombing phase, it's gonna be like your Friends are awful.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Isolating you.

[Zach Krager]

Isolating you. So you can kind of see it play out on a stage that might be more normal or grounded for people. Because who hasn't gotten involved with somebody like that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

And my friends are crazy. So if someone else points out like that fact, it's true. That's what I love about them.

[Zach Krager]

Yeah, exactly.

[Lola Blanc]

It's so interesting. It sounds so similar to a romantic relationship with the love bombing and the abusive, controlling stuff. Are certain people more susceptible to that, do you think, than others? I'm such a cynic. I can't imagine. But that's part of it, right? That's what could be used against me.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I mean. Exactly. What could be used against you is a cult of cynical people who are like, I would never join a cult.

[Lola Blanc]

Right. The goths.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Let's talk about it together for hours on end. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I mean, that's something we talk about a lot. But what we find over and over and over again is there are all kinds of people that join. Women seem to be more open to talking about it, but men also join and it's really more about where they are in their life. That makes them maybe a little bit more vulnerable to manipulation in that moment. But it's not necessarily a personality trait that recurs.

[Zach Krager]

Yeah. If you're going through a breakup, if you're going through financial hardship, if you've lost somebody, just be really careful. Cause people prey upon you. Yeah. Because you're looking for an answer. You're not grounded like you usually would be.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Or you're just young and open minded because people get targeted just because they're young a lot. You know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. So this show has been going on for five years.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's so crazy to hear you say, I cannot believe it's been five years.

[Lola Blanc]

Five years.

[Megan Elizabeth]

What the hell?

[Georgia Hardstark]

And you guys kicked it off by talking Lola about your background. And so do you want to tell us a little bit about that?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. So I was raised just a regular Mormon, just a mainstream Mormon, which is not the polygamous kind for those who get confused about that. And after my parents got divorced, my mom was a single lady who had been excommunicated from the church and had gone through this whole process of rebuilding her repenting, basically. And a man targeted her at a Mormon singles dance and spent several months basically convincing her. She didn't believe him at first, of course, but spent several months preying upon her Mormon beliefs to convince her that he was the new prophet of God.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And the Context for this, which I think is really important, is that one, the founder of Mormonism, Joseph Smith, was a guy in the 1800s who just was like, I had a vision. I got the new church. I'm gonna do it. And so the whole foundation of the religion is basically like a guy being like, I had a vision. So it leaves room for other guys to come along. And also, there's a part of the belief system where there's, like, part of the scripture was hidden away until the end times. So there have been numerous men at this point who've been like, I found the hidden scripture called the sealed portion. And to make matters significantly worse, maybe the most important detail here is that my mom had had a dream prior to meeting this man about a man that she would meet. And it felt really significant. And he had this very specific look. She said he looked like Brendan Fraser. And she meets this guy at the dance, and he looks just like the guy from her dream. And she's been in this Mormon culture where dreams are really important and signs from God are really important. So he was able to prey upon that. He recognized that. And over time, he did indoctrinate her. And we were eventually separated at his command. And she had a very harrowing experience on her own, which we don't necessarily need to get into today, but we did get out, and we are much better now, and we talk about it very openly. And now my mom is an advocate for people who are in cults and leaving cults.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Incredible.

[Lola Blanc]

That's amazing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow, that's really something. As kind of like you, through the eyes of a child, kind of like, had that experience, which I think. I wonder the difference there, because in adults, going in with the ego of, I would never be convinced or, you can't. I'm not gonna do something I wouldn't believe. As opposed to kind of the open mind of a child of like, I'm seeing all of this. And what, like, do you think that you had an insight that maybe your mother didn't have? Cause you were young and less experienced?

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, but I will say I had witnessed my mom. My mom is, like, just sees the best in everyone. And there are like, certain just, like, antisocial personality types are really drawn to people like her. So I had seen a couple of people already kind of target her in the past. So I was skeptical of him at first, but I think it was just because of that experience. And then the minute I, like, found their letter, their emails to each other about how he was a prophet, I was like, oh, sick. He's a prophet. This is so cool. The prophet. Yeah. And then I was chosen by God too to help bring about the end of days.

[Zach Krager]

So that was cool.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Zach Krager]

And that's on our first episode that we ever did we go fully into that with.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

What was the process of extracting yourself and becoming your own person outside of that?

[Megan Elizabeth]

You know, big question.

[Lola Blanc]

Tell us step by step.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, she actually. So she was. What is the best way to phrase this? So there had been men that had come to where she was staying, where she'd been told to stay. And there was a man who had come there basically because the prophet was like, hey, you can go. There's this woman you can go take advantage of. He saw what she was living through and broke down crying and got her out.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh my God.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Which is not usually how things go. But he just felt so bad. He's actually still in our lives. But after that, I mean, honestly, it was a years long process. I mean, we didn't really talk about it for years. Like it was just kind of something we pretended didn't happen. And then my mom started talking about it openly and then she got her PhD in media psychology. And now we, like, you know, we've processed the fuck out of you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's amazing.

[Lola Blanc]

That's incredible.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But it took a long time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, that's great. And Megan, do you wanna talk about your.

[Zach Krager]

Yeah, sure. I wish it had been processed. It is not. But I'm fourth generation on both sides of my family. Two by two. So some people call it. It doesn't technically have a name which is baked into the cultiness of it. Some people call it the truth. The way the two by twos. Basically, if you were super into Archie comic books when you were younger, you might have been a part of it. That's like one of the big. Is that we were all given a bunch of Archies.

[Lola Blanc]

Really?

[Zach Krager]

Yeah. I don't know why, but sometimes people are like, that's not the one I was in. And then I'm like, is it the Archie one? And they're like, yeah, that's the tell.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did they change the contents to make it like Archie supporting? No.

[Zach Krager]

Oh, okay.

[Lola Blanc]

What is it about Archie?

[Zach Krager]

We weren't allowed to have television. We weren't allowed to watch movies. We weren't supposed to do anything entertaining. So for some reason people were like, let them read Archie's.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Wow.

[Zach Krager]

At least they can do that. And we did.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We took a ghost from 1952 came in.

[Zach Krager]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

That's such an interesting fact, like a little tidbit. If you ever see someone with an Archie tattoo, you're like, what's up?

[Zach Krager]

What's up?

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, I know, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What was, like, the basic tenet of that?

[Zach Krager]

That's a great question. So since they haven't written anything down, really, nobody knows. Essentially, this man named William Irvine had a, what I would call a manic episode in, like, 1897, where he got really depressed on New Year's Eve and was like, I found a verse, I think it's in Matthew that was like, I'll send them out two by two and they'll have no home and they'll go out and la, la, la, la. And he was like that. And so he was very. He was like the Scotsman, very charismatic. And he started this homeless ministry. We go out two by two and we have no possessions. And people loved it. And Ireland, you know. Well, actually, I'll back up a second. People hated it, but some people loved it. The people who loved it loved it. The people who loved it loved it. The people who he was telling, they were. And like, this church is evil. That church is evil. Any church that's not our church is evil. They were like, shut up. And there's so many newspaper clippings that now I've seen at the time where people are like, William's on it again. Like, he's up and preaching, but he ends up losing his mind completely and he's excommunicated. And he ends up dying in Israel in like 1914 and is just kind of maybe later, maybe 1920 something, but he's written out of the history of it. They're embarrassed of him going off the deep end. They don't want to talk about it. Have a pretty big following at this point. And they're like, let's just write them out. It came from Jesus.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay?

[Zach Krager]

So there's no founder.

[Lola Blanc]

We're going back.

[Zach Krager]

We're going way back. And so they just decided to erase him. So when I've growing up, fourth generation, when did your church start? I don't know about William. I've never heard about William. I go, it started from Jesus. And that's what we all thought. And so the basic tenants are that strange people lived in our homes because they don't have a house, that we went to a lot of church. It's pretty much like being Amish, but also living in the normal world. There's a verse in the Bible that says, you should be in the world, not of the world. So Amish people are wrong because they've taken themselves out of the world. So who cares if you're righteous and, like, sweet out where no one can see you? You need to be among the sinners. But you need to be so weird that people go, there's something different about you.

[Lola Blanc]

I have that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We have that.

[Zach Krager]

And they go, what? And then you go, it's Jesus.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's Jesus. That's my big secret.

[Zach Krager]

Yeah, that's my big secret. And the amount of secrecy and level. I mean, we really lived a lot like Amish people while going to normal schools, having normal jobs. But I didn't know, like, people would be like, did you see Saturday Night Live? And I was like, what the heck is that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Zach Krager]

No clue.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And you had to wear long dresses.

[Zach Krager]

Oh, yeah. I got to wear really long jean skirts. Buns. And, you know, I.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You couldn't cut your hair.

[Zach Krager]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Zach Krager]

This bob is an act of rebellion.

[Lola Blanc]

Hell yeah. Ditto.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I love that.

[Zach Krager]

Great decision.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We all have bobs.

[Lola Blanc]

We're all about to cult. You said rebel.

[Zach Krager]

I said cult.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Same thing, same thing. A rebel. Cult.

[Lola Blanc]

Rebel.

[Zach Krager]

Cult. Exactly. Now we're susceptible. And, yeah, we had to wear in buns. I luckily did rebel. My friends would bring me clothes to school when I got a little bit older, you know, like, so I could wear some jeans. But. Yeah, and you really weren't supposed to, and my mom didn't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yep.

[Lola Blanc]

So when did you get out? And, like, when did you.

[Zach Krager]

Oh, well, the day my parents dropped me off at college. I was like, bye, thank you. But, you know, I was supposed to go every Sunday and Wednesday and Sunday afternoon, and I was too busy studying for that.

[Lola Blanc]

Yes. Yeah. Oh, sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did you get incredible grades?

[Zach Krager]

I was getting incredible deeds. And so, you know, I never really went back. Oh, another. Another little tenet of this is that the children in the church profess and then you start speaking in the meeting. So you don't go to a church building where somebody speaks at you. You meet in homes. And everybody who's professed shares. So I would have to pick a verse every week. And I'm supposed to be teaching people about the Bible. My least favorite book of all time, All I like is the babysitter's club and doing everything the opposite of it. So I just stopped going. I stopped speaking when I went. But the fear was so, so heavy. Because this is a religion that doesn't celebrate Christmas. It doesn't celebrate Easter. It's like, those are making light of Jesus. He's not like a little Chiclet, furry Easter Bunny kind of dude. He's like, he's bringing the wrath of God and we're all going to hell. Even the people in it, most of them believe that they're going to hell. So I was very scared. And it really wasn't until this podcast that I even had some hope of, like, unwinding it. Because even though my big brain was like, this is ridiculous. My other brain was like, no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. Yeah, that's the way. I mean, at the beginning when you were describing that, I'm like, this is the Catholic Church essentially, without the skirts. But I do think maybe it's not even the Catholic Church. It's just that mindset, which is they're bad and we're good and trying to, like, live through. So basically anything we do is justified because they're bad. And having those thoughts as a kid is a very weird feeling because you're like, I never questioned it, but I would have that. Like, I think I've told Georgia this a bunch of times. Driving to church, I would see little kids playing in the front yard at their house and be like, oh, that's too bad. They're gonna burn in hell. And, like, truly just kind of very lightly feel that pity for people. Whereas, like, of course, when I got into college, same thing where I met a bunch of people outside of my town and Faith and everything, where I was just like, all these people are not burning in hell. They just. This is illogical. And that kind of thing of like, it's just weird when it's inside you like that it's just like built in.

[Zach Krager]

Built in completely.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. In Mormonism too, we are the chosen ones. We didn't necessarily believe in hell in the traditional sense, but a lower tier of heaven, everyone else is going to a lower tier.

[Lola Blanc]

Like the waiting room of heaven.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Condos versus mansions, or bottle service and.

[Lola Blanc]

VIP versus just like the regular club.

[Zach Krager]

It's supposed to be just like.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Like earth, like, have. If you're a bad person, heaven is just like the normal world. But if you're. If you do the right. Yeah way, that's a good ass heaven.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Zach Krager]

But, like, just teaching kids in general that they can, like. Like being burnt is so painful. And teaching somebody that they can be like that for eternity. That's so mean.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's so mean.

[Zach Krager]

Like, really, stop it.

[Lola Blanc]

If that's what you have to do to get children to believe in, or adults even to believe in what you're preaching, that just seems a little bit like, I don't know if you can Back that up then.

[Zach Krager]

You can't back that up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You don't have to back it up because it's a matter of faith there.

[Zach Krager]

No questioning. Yes, exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So basically, do you both know? Well, you just described it. The moments you had, your doubt was essentially like, you're saying, being out in.

[Zach Krager]

The real world, when I was really little, I was like, no, she was a questioner. I was like, I don't like it. But my problem was I was like super dyslexic. I had add and I was from a family with very educated adults who had, quote unquote, high powered jobs. And so I was like, they're smarter than me, so I must be missing something. So that was kind of my experience.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, I've never heard you say that before.

[Zach Krager]

Yeah, cognitive dish where I was like, doubting yourself.

[Lola Blanc]

Your own.

[Zach Krager]

If I can't read and this person's a surgeon, then they're probably right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

So is your family still involved? Four generations. That just is a hard thing to break.

[Zach Krager]

Probably. They are, yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow.

[Zach Krager]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

And are you accepted?

[Zach Krager]

And I just got back from family vacation with them. I couldn't love them more. You know, a lot of people are pretty over it, but there was just a very big exposure in the two by two system where if you have people staying in people's homes, that's like a vision board for pedophiles to get involved in the group. And they've been covering it up.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And another Catholic church similarity.

[Zach Krager]

Yes. Except that they're sleeping in your house for a week, you know, so you don't. You don't get that break. So a lot of people are just writing their two by two family members off. We're over it. I'm kind of. Of going a different route. It's for each to decide.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, definitely. It's a very personal thing. Wow, that's incredible.

[Zach Krager]

Yeah, it's a wild time. It's really crazy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, but I think it's like, that's what Georgia and I were so excited when we knew that your podcast was looking for a home. Because being able to come from a point of view when you are talking to people who just got out, like, that level of empathy from the framework from which you are speaking is very rare. I mean, like, if at all. So I think it just. It's such an advantage that you guys have because you have the experience and you have the empathy and you have the interest, but you also aren't. It's not like you're like, we are right now where we're like, wait, how did it happen and why would it happen? Or whatever. You guys absolutely know how the how and why usually. So you're right there with people when they're telling their story.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Thank you. Yeah, that's the goal. Like, before I found Megan, when I first had the idea for this podcast, I just was listening to cult podcasts and felt they all felt so gawky, like, look how crazy this was.

[Lola Blanc]

You know, I would never. Well, I feel like that's kind of me a little. And I feel guilty. Like, I wasn't raised in any religion that was very, like, was mandatory in any way. So it's so hard for me to understand that. And therefore, I feel like I lack a little bit of the empathy that you guys.

[Zach Krager]

A lot of people do.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, one of my original things that originally made me think of it was I was watching a video about Jonestown and reading some of the comments, and all the comments were like, these idiots. You know, And I was like, no, no, no. Especially. Cause, you know, my doing so much advocacy in the cult world, I've met so many people who have advanced degrees who are, like, wildly intelligent, you know, very successful, talented. Like, it's just everybody is susceptible. And that was one of the. Yeah, that's the perspective we want to come from, is that, like, these are just human people. We're having conversations, everybody's smart. Like, this isn't. There's nothing wrong with you if this happened to you.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, that's so important.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

So speaking of, in your premiere episode for exactly right here, you guys interviewed Akina Cox, who was really in the Unification Church, which some people call the Moonies, which we've discussed many times on the podcast. Was there anything in that conversation that stood out to you or that was surprising to you? You guys have 500 episodes. Do you still get surprised ever?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, we hadn't interviewed someone who'd actually participated in a mass wedding before. Right. Cause I don't think Steve did. No, he didn't get married that way. It's not that it was surprising to learn that it happened. It's just, like, so interesting to get the firsthand perspective of somebody who had been through that and her parents as well.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Because in San Francisco Bay area, we used to. That would be on, like, the 7 o' clock news all the time. Because the Unification Church really kind of posted up in San Francisco. There were so many people kind of left over from the, you know, 1969 kind of drug addict thing. And so they were picking People in the. I'd say mid to late 70s. It happened constantly. And I think it was part of the local news of saying, look out, or this is a group that you should be aware of or something. But they would show the footage of 10,000 people getting married at one time. And I remember just like sitting there and turning to my mom, like, wait, what is this? And she was just like, the Moonies, like, you know, we know about them or whatever. But it was that kind of like, it's weird to me how much they put it in front of us at the time. Seemed to me to message that kind of like, look out. These people are around.

[Zach Krager]

I really needed somebody to do that for the two by truth. Hopefully I'm doing that.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Even if they did, four generations, like, what could you have done?

[Zach Krager]

Exactly.

[Lola Blanc]

And you did it.

[Zach Krager]

Yeah, yeah. But to your point. Exactly. Like, we need people to say, hey, look at what they're doing. It's weird. Otherwise you're like, is that normal?

[Lola Blanc]

I don't know.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But when you're in it, it feels so normal.

[Zach Krager]

I know, I know. And the physical abuse, she really shocked me with what they.

[Megan Elizabeth]

In the Unification Church. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Like, from childhood. She was in there and it was.

[Megan Elizabeth]

It's like a part. It's like a ritual. It's part of the practice, I guess you guys have probably talked about it before.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, Yeah, a little bit.

[Zach Krager]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Zach Krager]

So she. She really shook us up a bit also.

[Megan Elizabeth]

She's so cool.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

She's so funny.

[Zach Krager]

Yeah. I floated us being friends in real life on the interview, and she was like, maybe.

[Lola Blanc]

She'S like, I'll put you on the list, but it's a lot.

[Zach Krager]

Let me know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let me know when I'm in your group. Thank you so much. That's so funny.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I think one of the things about, you know, publicizing the mass weddings and, like, while it's important to draw attention to stuff like that, it also can create a huge stigma around people who are still in the group.

[Lola Blanc]

Like an us versus them.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Kind of like, they're weirdos, they're evil, they're bad. And we see that a lot where the people who are actually victims of the group. Exactly. Are treated as though they are perpetrators.

[Lola Blanc]

Like they're coming out with shit.

[Zach Krager]

Yeah. And just, you know, having family members who are still in or knowing people who are still in the two by twos who are wonderful people, it makes me feel really protective of them. And I absolutely, like we said earlier, understand being like, well, they just need to do their research. But you're just taught like don't look into this kind of stuff. Don't question if it's generations deep. It's deep.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's some serious indoctrination.

[Zach Krager]

It's really deep. So yeah, I just try to hold space for people who are in it and it's generous.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And I just wanna shout out something that's been going on with my mom. Cause we talk about this idea a lot of staying connected to people who are still in the group instead of shunning them because there will be some media on this part of my mom's journey. But after her experience, she ended up moving to the FLDS town of Colorado City, which is where all the polygamists live for those who don't know and just was nice to people and was like an outsider who was one of the first outsiders. Be nice to them. And through these relationships that she created, she ended up actually getting to know the new self proclaimed prophet. After Warren Jeffs went to prison and ended up going undercover for the FBI.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I didn't expect that.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I didn't expect that turn because now she had earned their trust and she had earned the trust of some of the victims of him who finally came out to her and she was able to get them to tell their stories to the FBI. So it can be also just really powerful for actually helping people, staying connected to them.

[Lola Blanc]

If she was just like judgey, judge, you're wrong. Let me help you out of this. It would not have happened.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yes. People who are in a group like that and are isolated from any outsiders do need some connection, some safe connection outside of the group in order for anything to ever.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Zach Krager]

And I'm glad you brought that up because do you know who else is being investigated by the FBI? Tell us the two by twos. Did the FBI come to my house? They did.

[Lola Blanc]

Shut up.

[Zach Krager]

Yeah. So that's good. It is, you know, it's bringing attention and putting the authority figures who are actually the ones moving these perps around, secretly harboring money that, you know, the spotlight on to them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So it could actually change something.

[Zach Krager]

Gosh, I hope so.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And you're right. I mean I think that piece of it of like, and we talk about that a lot in this day and age in this political climate or whatever, where it's like when people feel so identified with a. That's so far over into one area, if they don't think they have anywhere to come back to, then there's no point in ever even trying to. Because it's hard enough. I'M you know, I assume it's hard enough to leave, much less to leave and believe that everyone's judging you once you get out the door.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yes. There's gotta be some support system or something.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Zach Krager]

Bridging that gap and just, you know, if it's not for you, that's fine. But we talked to. What was his name, Frank, who was going to dinner parties.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You mean the white supremacists?

[Zach Krager]

Yeah. Who was that?

[Megan Elizabeth]

So Frank was the one whose boss was Jewish. He was the neo Nazi. But then our Derek Black, now known as Adrienne Black, she was the one who was David Duke's poster child.

[Lola Blanc]

Shut up.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Has denounced white supremacy and racism and has now come out as trans. But she was invited to dinner parties by some Jewish friends. And over time, because she forged these new connections with people, it was like what broke through her ideology.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow. Did they know who she was when they were invited?

[Megan Elizabeth]

She was like on the radio, like she had a radio program for white.

[Lola Blanc]

Supremacy and they were just being generous.

[Zach Krager]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And one of my best friends, Avital, who. It was her brother who was one of these people who. Tiny world.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Zach Krager]

Really small world. But it's all to say you don't have to have the dinner parties. Like some people are like, oh, I don't.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Definitely not.

[Zach Krager]

I don't want to have that dinner party and I don't have the capacity. And that's fine. But if you can have a dinner party or if you can have a conversation and it doesn't send you into a spiral, then that's great. It helps.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. Everyone's unique and everyone's role is different. And not everyone is destined to pull people out of cults.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I would say maybe leave it to the people who are really good at dinner parties, really good at small talk.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Welcome.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Being welcoming without judgment. Very few of us in this world.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. I think it's a good thing to strive for because I do. There is a part of me that feels really guilty about, you know, the way I have considered. I would never, you know, but I've been a 20 year old girl. I've been in my 30s, depressed, like there. We've all been at certain places in our lives where we're susceptible to whatever level of influence someone else, you know, wants to put on you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Also, I think it does make us feel better if. When you go through the world kind of having a cynical eye toward things, you know, you're missing out on stuff, but you're like not gonna fall for it. Ye. And so then there Is that little. It's like the cold comfort of telling yourself like, I was smarter than everybody. Where it was like, and you didn't get invited to any dinner parties because of it. So there is, you know, I think it's that it's like probably less guilt and more of like, you're an automatic cynic because of how you were raised. Same with me, where I'm just like, I'll see you coming from a mile away. But it doesn't make me smarter. Because every human being has the kind of needs that if you're not getting those needs, any old group can come along and be like, come be in our band. And then you know.

[Zach Krager]

Exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah. And like Megan, we have very different sensibilities in our lives.

[Zach Krager]

I'm a scientist of the metaphysical.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Megan loves magic. Yay. I love science.

[Zach Krager]

And so when she said it.

[Lola Blanc]

I'm.

[Zach Krager]

Trolling her, she's trolling me.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I believe in nothing. But we talk about how anytime we have a cult on the podcast that's a more spiritual, metaphysical, new age one like Megan would join. And that's what we traditionally think of cults as either religious or that. But then you got these self help programs and you got these ones that are more for making you achieve or making you smarterxiom.

[Zach Krager]

Yeah, I would join Axiom.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's the one that I would bring.

[Lola Blanc]

I'm just thinking about like Jonestown with some religious leaders.

[Zach Krager]

You're such a nexium. You would totally 25 year old Georgia.

[Lola Blanc]

Would have signed up immediately.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Burned it in. Should we play the game since we're talking about this segue? Right?

[Lola Blanc]

Let's do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's do it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's be real. Life happens. Kids spill, pets shed and accidents are inevitable. Find a sofa that can keep [e-mail] Starting at just $699, our sofas are fully machine washable inside and out. So you can say goodbye to stains and hello to worry free living. Made with liquid and stain resistant fabrics, they're kid proof, pet friendly and built for everyday life. Plus, changeable fabric covers let you refresh your sofa whenever you want. Want neat flexibility? Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa anytime to fit your space, whether it's a growing family room or a cozy apartment. Plus they're earth friendly and trusted by over 200,000 happy customers. It's time to upgrade to a stress free, mess proof sofa. Visit washablesofas.com today and save. That's washablesofas.com offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

[Frank Lyford]

It's hot out, which means you're probably looking at your wardrobe right now and thinking, nope. But before you start panic buying stuff on a shady website, you've got to check out Quint. Quint has the clothes that you're going to want to wear all season long. Think 100% European linen tops starting at $30. Washable silk dresses and skirts. Versatile warm weather pieces you'll reach for again and again. And the best part, everything with Quint is half the cost of similar brands. I mean, we have talked a lot about this brand on this podc. I personally genuinely love quints.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They have the basics that you need.

[Frank Lyford]

But then when you're going into like a new season and thinking, hey, I'm gonna switch it up for summer and wear a nice linen skirt, you can just go on the website and find many choices for new directions you wanna take yourself. It's hot dog summer. What does that mean to you? Go onto the Quint's website and find out. Give your summer closet an upgrade with quince. Go to quince.com mfm for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I-N-C-E.com mfm to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com mfm Goodbye.

[Lola Blanc]

Your cat's too mysterious to tell you what's going on, so let their litter do the talking. Pretty litter is the high performance cat litter that controls odors, absorbs moisture and changes color to help detect potential health issues. And your cat. And Pretty litter is ultra absorbent, lightweight, low dust and one six pound bag lasts up to a month. It's the cat litter that gives you peace of mind. Their crystals will change color to indicate early signs of illness in your cat such as urinary tract infections and kidney issues. And the best part, Pretty litter ships free right to your door so you'll never run out. I recently had to move my cat box upstairs near my bedroom because we were doing some work downstairs in the house and I was so nervous about all the dust and the stuff smells. And then I remember we use pretty litter and none of those things are problems anymore. So it was totally fine having the cat box up there. Thank you Pretty Litter right now save 20 on your first order and get a free cat toy at prettylitter.com mfm that's prettylittleitter.com fm to save 20% on your first order and get a FREE cat toy. Pretty Litter.com mfm Pretty Litter cannot detect every feline health issue or prevent or diagnose diseases. A diagnosis can only come from a licensed veterinary. Terms and conditions apply. C site for details. Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So it's time for. Would you join this cult with the gals from Trust Me. Well, this one, I covered this one. It was the Sarah Lawrence dorm dad who moved into the dorms and basically started a very tiny cult with his daughter's friends.

[Zach Krager]

Yeah, we interviewed them. That was a great episode.

[Lola Blanc]

That's so sad because they seem so normal.

[Megan Elizabeth]

They are. They're cool and normal like all of our guests are.

[Lola Blanc]

Yes, of course. And so manipulated.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Just so manipulated.

[Zach Krager]

I would've joined.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That guy is endlessly fascinating to me. You don't get video of, like, the actual abuse that often.

[Zach Krager]

Right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And the fact that it's all, like, on. They were just all filming it on their cell phones. You can just see him talking to that.

[Zach Krager]

It's just like he's so compelling. I can't remember if he was saying he was in the CIA. Yeah. And just had this big story I'm very drawn to. Kind of not narcissistic liars.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Same.

[Lola Blanc]

And you don't expect your friend's dad to do that.

[Zach Krager]

No, no, no. So if your friend's dad is like, I wasn't. I'd be like, okay, yeah, I totally see how that happened.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I would see him as an authority figure for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd join that shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's a double. Yes. The dorm dad cult is going to be fully occupied.

[Lola Blanc]

So would you join the Manson family? Okay, let's go early on. Yeah, I would go early on. I see you early on.

[Zach Krager]

Totally. Totally. A good commune, hot people. If you look back at some pictures, some nice drugs. Drugs.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You would. I know, yeah.

[Zach Krager]

Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

I feel like for me, the, like, once they move out into, like, the desert with no plumbing and. No, I would have been.

[Zach Krager]

And once we start getting into murdering people.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, that too. Like, I'm talking about that.

[Zach Krager]

Absolutely.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But it's always before we know about the bad stuff. Would you join in the beginning? Yes.

[Zach Krager]

150 billion percent.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I would say know only because I think the early days would have been all those, like, kind of like hangout drug parties with the Beach Boys and stuff. And I know Charles Manson sat around playing the acoustic guitar at those parties. So if people were like, we're going to his farm. I'd be like, absolutely not.

[Lola Blanc]

So heartbreakingly like, I love this guy. And then you hear his band and.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You'Re like, oh, no, cannot do this.

[Zach Krager]

Yeah, that's true, that's true.

[Megan Elizabeth]

That's a good point. I don't think. I think it depends on who I'm exposed to initially because I think I would have been drawn to. To like Tex the mu.

[Zach Krager]

Sorry, Tex.

[Lola Blanc]

Tex Watson.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Tex Watson. The hot guy.

[Zach Krager]

The hot guy.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, I don't remember what Tex looks like. Is he hot?

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, just a tall cowboy, but somehow more dangerous.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay, okay then.

[Zach Krager]

Well then probably, yeah, she's like, is he available now?

[Megan Elizabeth]

I think I would have been drawn in general to like the counterculture groups that were happening at that time. Cause I'm like anti capitalist and shit, you know, I don't know if it would have been that specific, but I would want to hang out with a beach boy though. For sure.

[Zach Krager]

Absolutely.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They were on scene. What about the Alamo Christian Foundation? They were the ones that did the airbrush jean jackets in the 80s as a way.

[Zach Krager]

Jean jackets?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Jean jackets, yeah.

[Zach Krager]

Men.

[Georgia Hardstark]

As a way to do. As a way to make money. Christian based. It was all about the woman, all about the wife in the beginning.

[Lola Blanc]

And then she died and like the boyfriend. Husband took over. There's this really great documentary that just came out about it. I just covered it. That was just. I had never heard of it before. Before, but yeah, I've never heard of it before.

[Zach Krager]

This is embarrassing.

[Lola Blanc]

No, it's Ministry of Evil. Oh yeah. Min.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Ministry of Evil.

[Lola Blanc]

Ministry of Evil documentary.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, but it's kind of similar to Children of God, I think, in that way where they were like the LA people who were left over from the 60s, still hanging around, you know, partying.

[Lola Blanc]

Purpose.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And they're just kind of like, well, how about this purpose? I think they also used flirty fishing style to get men in, like hot women. And at one point they all lived in an apartment off Crescent Heights and.

[Lola Blanc]

There was like a 1300 people in the house or apartment.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It can't be 1300.

[Lola Blanc]

I think it was something like that. This is what I think though. It's a good point. Like, yeah, maybe it was 300. I'm not good at that. But that's a good point though. Like, I wonder about the people who back then were hippies and they were doing all these things that were against what they were raised in. And they were still, still looking for God, but being themselves. I bet that was more susceptible than just the people who were just trying to look for a commune. Had nothing to do with God.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, we were talking. We've talked a lot about how surprising it is. How many hippies who were like counterculture people joined Christian cults that became, like, hyper conservative? Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

It's like they still wanted. They left their home and their hometown and everything, but they still believed and wanted.

[Zach Krager]

And they still wanted a community. And I think that there was something baked into the. The end of the world and not having saved money, that probably appealed to them.

[Lola Blanc]

That makes sense.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That makes sense.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah.

[Zach Krager]

I think that's my guess.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Zach Krager]

So I would probably join it because I have saved no money and I love jean jackets.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay, here's a big one. Ohm Shinrikyo. That's the 1980s and 90s Japanese doomsday cult responsible for the 1995 Tokyo SAT subway sarin gas attack.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We have not done an episode on.

[Zach Krager]

That yet, although we have somebody who survived it who agreed to. Come on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Megan Elizabeth]

We do.

[Zach Krager]

Yeah, we do.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Ooh.

[Lola Blanc]

My uncle lived in an apartment with a roommate who was involved in that. But that's not interview worthy, I don't think.

[Zach Krager]

I mean, maybe. Maybe.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah. Okay. This one, the documentary was incredible. Love has won the 2010 Spiritual Influence Influencer Culture with Mother God, Amy Carlson. It was a New age cult. I don't know if that's more special to you guys in any way.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Megan would join that one.

[Zach Krager]

We interviewed her daughter. I think that off the top of one's head, you might say that I would join, but I would not because it was. I'm trying to think of how to word this a little bit, like, too yoga based.

[Megan Elizabeth]

No, no, she's into that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Zach Krager]

What I'm trying to say is that it was like a little bit more meth rather than, like. You know what I mean? Like, there was a high meth vibe there. Very cluttered, dirty.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, that's true.

[Lola Blanc]

Stay up all night.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, wasn't it just the one guy?

[Zach Krager]

Yeah, but like. Yeah, there was too many posters. There was like, too many. It was just.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You needed to be like, pristine.

[Zach Krager]

Yeah, more like of a. Like if Goop. If Gwyneth had one, you know, like I needed.

[Megan Elizabeth]

She kind of does.

[Zach Krager]

Aesthetically pleasing.

[Lola Blanc]

You don't wanna watch the sunrise.

[Zach Krager]

No, this was just too many.

[Lola Blanc]

I totally hear you.

[Zach Krager]

Trinkets.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You don't wanna have to be telling people to clean the kitchen. No, not adults.

[Zach Krager]

No, no, no, no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If we're all gonna live in this farmhouse together.

[Zach Krager]

Cause I'm assuming I would join this one more as an adult. Whereas I'm thinking myself as a teenage 60s girly when I'm joining the Mansons. Just so people have like, what part.

[Lola Blanc]

Of your life is the person who would. Yeah, I hear you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yep, I hear you.

[Zach Krager]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

These are the. These are the days of your life.

[Megan Elizabeth]

So think if you didn't know how they were living. And you saw Amy Carlson.

[Zach Krager]

Yes, yes. She's great.

[Lola Blanc]

She was dynamic.

[Zach Krager]

No, she wasn't great, Megan. No, she's. No, she's.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You would, like, watch her YouTube videos.

[Zach Krager]

I totally would. I totally would be susceptible to her. I did have friends who liked her. I thought maybe she was a little crazy. But the interesting thing about Amy is that she did say, I think I'm crazy. And her follower said, no, you're not.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah.

[Zach Krager]

No, you're not. You're God.

[Lola Blanc]

How do you get that many followers if you're crazy? You know what I mean?

[Zach Krager]

And so she kind of tried to back off from it. She was like, you know what? Never mind. And they're like, no, we're gonna watch you die in. Wrap your body in Christmas lights.

[Lola Blanc]

So sad.

[Zach Krager]

So that's what's happening.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which also is very methy. That whole thing of, like, an art project, a dead body.

[Lola Blanc]

As some. Someone who has been on meth before as a younger person.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Excuse me.

[Lola Blanc]

That is very methy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, you haven't heard? That's Georgia. Georgia's cult.

[Lola Blanc]

Meth.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, I did not know cults of meth.

[Zach Krager]

So you would join this?

[Lola Blanc]

I would. At 14. I would have a. 14 for sure.

[Megan Elizabeth]

14. Wow.

[Lola Blanc]

Not now. No more. No more meth. Now that's good. I want to ask a question. Do you guys think. And this might be inflammatory, but is there any, like, influencers today day? Because I have a lot of friends who are like, you've got to watch this person's videos or you've got to listen to this person's podcast. It changed my life. And I'm immediately like, all of them are. Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

A good amount.

[Lola Blanc]

You don't have to name names, but.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Is there like, honestly, Teal Swan and Benton Home Massaro. But they've both been already sort of exposed for their behaviors.

[Zach Krager]

Yeah, Like I said, I love a good person speaking to aliens, but they're all full of shit, most likely. What were you about to say?

[Lola Blanc]

What if one isn't exactly just the.

[Zach Krager]

One you just.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did you see, you know the brother and sisters that were the original on Dancing with the Stars? Julianne Hough. Have you seen those? Like, she now has some sort of.

[Lola Blanc]

The actress.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The beautiful, beautiful actress. She was the dancer on Dancing with the Stars that it was. She's a blonde she's really perfect. And she has started what started out as like a wellness company, but she went to do, like, the live speaking for it, and people post the video and they're like, this is absolutely a cult. Like, the way she isn't really saying anything, but everyone's like, cheering like crazy. And she's kind of like doing a little bit of a dance, but also is like, we all are gonna get to. And people say it's like maybe like a little bit of a born again Christian fundamentalist going in that direction.

[Lola Blanc]

Megan's ready to defend. I can see it on her.

[Zach Krager]

Where do we draw the line with just, like, being motivated?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, get bolero hats. If we just cut it there, where it's like, sorry, you've gone over the. The line. We can't trust you over here.

[Zach Krager]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I mean, yeah, I just have an allergy to the level of certainty that a lot of these people use in how they speak.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And, like, certainty about things that, like, nobody has certainty on. You know what I mean? I love that. And like, a lot of the people who are selling supplements, for example, like, are there any real scientists on the board of their company?

[Lola Blanc]

And even if you're not, the FDA is not checking it out.

[Zach Krager]

Right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And what's tricky is that so many of these people will have videos that have really good advice. Like, there. It's not black and white. There's. I hate Jordan Peterson. He's got a couple good videos on relationships. You know what I mean? Teal Swan has a couple good videos on relationships. So it doesn't mean that there isn't some value in, like, some things that they'll say, but, like, how certain are they talking and what do they actually know about that subject? And are you going to other sources as well, for your information?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's almost like it has to have some solid information at base. Right. Because it has to grow from somewhere. So you're like, this is a person that is giving. Giving me this. This kind of insight. If there was no real insight, you wouldn't stay.

[Zach Krager]

Exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So you're getting a little more of that. Like, how can I be on the grind that Julianne Huff is on and, you know, get my eyes real wide.

[Zach Krager]

Yeah. And. And that's why arguing with them is so annoying for both of you, because they have the nugget of truth that they're trying to get you to see, and you see the mirror of lies and that you're trying to get them to see and you both can't.

[Lola Blanc]

And yours is probably harder to explain than theirs is. Theirs is just like, I just do believe it. And you're like, but how about this.

[Zach Krager]

And this and this and this?

[Megan Elizabeth]

But I remember making those same arguments when I was still very much a Mormon. I was like, no, but I know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Zach Krager]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And random people in high school would be like, yeah, but how do you know? And I'd be like, I just know.

[Lola Blanc]

Wow.

[Zach Krager]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

And you feel bad for them or you just, like, didn't?

[Megan Elizabeth]

I felt bad for them. And I also felt attacked by them.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, of course. Well, you were. I was attacked. We were both.

[Zach Krager]

Seriously, bull.

[Lola Blanc]

Fair enough. Hence podcasting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is how we all got here.

[Lola Blanc]

Should we pick each. Pick one of these?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Do we have different cards or the same cards?

[Lola Blanc]

I don't know. What do you have? What's your last one?

[Megan Elizabeth]

I haven't seen more.

[Zach Krager]

Are we asking them if they would join us? Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Wait, should we?

[Zach Krager]

Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, this one's good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Haven't we butted in on all of these? Okay, weren't we already doing that?

[Lola Blanc]

Pick a favorite. Let's pick a favorite.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You or us?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Both of us. You guys go ahead.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, that one.

[Zach Krager]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Hoyt Richards is a friend of mine who. We did an episode on him. He was a supermodel, a male supermodel in the 90s who was modeling with all of the iconic supermodel women. He got drawn into a cult in the 90s and early 2000s, and it was like, it was all these successful people. Would you join a cult full of supermodels?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Of course. People's cult. Who everyone is trying to do every day of their life. It's like, when will I get my phone call?

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Megan Elizabeth]

He did end up getting so supremely isolated, and they made him give up his career, and he escaped, like, in the night from. This compounded story is absolutely crazy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But, like, Hoyt's hot and Hoyt's hot.

[Lola Blanc]

Beautiful. People know more than we do, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sometimes maybe they must.

[Zach Krager]

What about. Would either of you guys join Heaven's Gate?

[Lola Blanc]

I think early on, I would have, yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Why?

[Lola Blanc]

The alien thing, I think it's just fascinating and, like, it never got so big that it felt like you were, like, anonymous. You were just part of this spaceship. Maybe in my 20s, you know?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Are you into aliens? Is that your thing?

[Lola Blanc]

I want to be proven wrong. I want to be, like, proven that aliens exist. Cause I don't believe in anything.

[Megan Elizabeth]

But, you know, I also find aliens very exciting. Yeah.

[Lola Blanc]

Or what about a ghost? A ghost one? A ghost cult. Is there A ghost cult?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Is there a ghost cult?

[Georgia Hardstark]

You can't just make up cults.

[Zach Krager]

Not with a trust me gazer on.

[Lola Blanc]

Okay, I'm officially starting my cult today.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I don't feel like I know of a ghost.

[Zach Krager]

There's a cult where somebody channeled somebody dead.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Okay, well yeah but like I want to be haunted. Like it is a goal of mine to be haunted since I don't believe anything.

[Lola Blanc]

It's exactly how I feel about aliens.

[Zach Krager]

Great.

[Lola Blanc]

Like I want to be proven.

[Zach Krager]

This is the beginning of a horror movie that I want. No pardon come back in a year.

[Lola Blanc]

And I'm going to be an alien and you're going to be a ghost. No wait, that means I'm dead.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I honestly remember seeing somebody who from Heaven's gate on the news that that lived. One of those people that like stayed behind maybe.

[Zach Krager]

Who are.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Was it Frank?

[Lola Blanc]

Who was he? The website guy they left behind? Someone who knew how to work your website.

[Zach Krager]

A lot of news. P.S.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes this is. I am older than everybody. I'm a child of the 70s. My parents watch 6 and 7 o' clock news and then Jeopardy. So we. I just had had to sit there powering through because I wasn't going to stop watching tv.

[Zach Krager]

Whether it was news or any tv.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I didn't care. So then I just had a lot of question that one I just remember when that happened it was so shocking and it was like early 90s, right? Like 90 or 91. And there was just an interview with one of the guys that was left behind and they asked him why did you join? It was like this is so crazy. Why would you join this? And he was just like I don't know nothing else to do. It was like he had kind of like low grade depression and just was like I just don't see what else there is to do. And when I saw him say that on the news I was like oh you better be careful with these feelings that you have. Because it was like yeah, I know that feeling. Or I'm just like I just want to sit on the couch and like yeah. Not do anything. And it's like that. That is an opening of like thinking that that mindset is the way it's always going to be I guess and.

[Zach Krager]

You know people who are really fired up about something trigger something and others who are maybe a little more depressive leaning or something and you can go into it with the savviness of like this person's kind of crazy. I just need a little bit of like things stimulation still get sucked in. Even with the prior knowledge.

[Lola Blanc]

I completely understand that. Like, when you see someone who's excited about something, you're like, God, I wish I could feel that. So maybe I'm gonna fake it until I do. Or, like, maybe I'm gonna force myself to.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Well, and also, one of the things that they do is create strong emotional experiences. And you. So you keep coming back. So if you're someone who's, like, not getting a lot of those, like, that's gonna be pretty appealing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Zach Krager]

Also with relationships, I'll be like, this guy's a little insane. Like, but I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna fall in love with them. I'm just gonna have some good, you know, hookup situations. Like, no big deal. And then three months later, I'm like, crying.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You're like, I am trapped.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Zach Krager]

How did I forget? Like, what is wrong with you?

[Megan Elizabeth]

Literally same.

[Zach Krager]

And I'm like, all of it. Everything. And I knew. Or like, it doesn't matter if you.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Know sometimes, because the emotional highs and lows work on you, even if you logically know that they're happening.

[Zach Krager]

Yes. If you've ever gotten in a bad relationship, you are susceptible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hey.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Everyone on the planet.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah, not everyone. Some people have secure attachment styles.

[Lola Blanc]

No. One of them, too. Not anyone listening to this podcast.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Never seen it.

[Lola Blanc]

Thank God.

[Zach Krager]

Never seen it. Those are not our people. That's a ghost.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Also, shout out. Cause Frank Lyford was the Heavens Gate survivor that we had on our podcast, and his story is incredible. Very, very heartbreaking.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm actually happy to hear if it is the same guy. It makes me happy to hear because he clearly was into something. He stuck around with us.

[Zach Krager]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, it didn't, you know, what he went into. And that's also a thing of, like, being young and making that decision. Such a final and final decision. Traumatic for a survivor. All of those things where it's like, yeah, can you picture? Maybe in 20 years you will not feel like this? Nope.

[Zach Krager]

And that's one of the things that the apocalyptic thinking is so powerful and staving off. And like, the two by twos in particular, when we're all groomed to wanna be workers. That's what it's called. When we grow up. That means that we don't have any possessions, we don't get married, we're celibate, and we go live in people's houses forever. And a very good kind of person is drawn to that life who maybe has a little bit of ocd. A million different things. But then a very bad type of person is also drawn to that. So you have this dichotomy of personality types that get drawn into circumstances.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All kinds of agendas. All kinds of agendas.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I can see myself joining an apocalypse cult just because it seems extreme. Exciting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Megan Elizabeth]

You know, like, sometimes I'm like, I was living in LA for 20 years. It's the same every day. Like, if the. If I knew the end of the world was coming and, like, something was going to happen to all of us and the Lord would make, like, decision, I, Like, I could see that being.

[Zach Krager]

The happiest people I know are planning for doomsday. They have a very strong purpose. It's like packing for a trip.

[Lola Blanc]

Nothing else matters. Right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're like, everyone loves a deadline.

[Lola Blanc]

I feel like that's the crossover for my alien doomsday thing. Like, that's the. The alien doomsday. Doomsday. They're kind of a paraphrase.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The pie chart of Independence Day in the center.

[Megan Elizabeth]

The movie Independence Day.

[Zach Krager]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Georgia watching Independence Day is the center of that documentary.

[Lola Blanc]

Documentary. But it's a doc. No, it's a documentary.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Mars Attacks.

[Lola Blanc]

Mars attacks.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yes.

[Lola Blanc]

Oh, my God.

[Zach Krager]

Now, that's a good point. That's a good point. And to that good point, as I joked about earlier, I don't have a savings. I was not taught to think that tomorrow would come.

[Lola Blanc]

Right.

[Zach Krager]

And every time I left the house, it was like, is that what you want to be wearing when Jesus comes back to the. Is that what you want to be thinking? Do you want to. Do you want to be in the movie theater when Jesus comes back? And you'd be like, no, I guess not. But, like, I really wanted to see Clueless. I don't. Fuck. I don't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just a human being.

[Zach Krager]

Yeah, I'm just a human being trying to figure it out. And a lot of people who were in that group do have say things accounts and were able to think rationally about things and hold both things at once. I think some people aren't and are like, well, the world will end tomorrow, so I'm not gonna worry about it.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And they didn't give you a specific timeline, right, though? Because in Mormonism, it was like, it could be tomorrow, could be in 50 years. We don't know.

[Zach Krager]

It was probably tomorrow. And the two by two.

[Lola Blanc]

Yeah, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

More pressing.

[Lola Blanc]

I need a time. I'm so punctual, it's annoying. Like, I need.

[Zach Krager]

I need a time. And that's why this, like, time in the world is so perfect for these conversations because the world actually kind of is ending. So it's like just a pressure cooker of so many belief systems and, yeah. Trying to dig yourself well.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And we're all looking for answers and we're all looking for reasons to think maybe why the world actually isn't ending.

[Zach Krager]

And why it matters if it doesn't, and what the meaning of life is. It's a really important.

[Lola Blanc]

And the belief system is so dichotomous that it's like, how can those people think that? But you know, they're thinking the same thing about us.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, the time has never been better for us to have a cult podcast. And we are so excited. It's your guys. We really are. Thank you so much for joining us because we are so glad to have you on this network.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Oh, we're so glad to be here.

[Lola Blanc]

That's right, you guys. Trust me. Cults Extreme Belief and Manipulation debuts on exactly right on July 30th with new episodes every Wednesday.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And go listen, subscribe and give it a five star review. You know, those reviews are very important.

[Lola Blanc]

Yes. Subscription is important. So thanks for being here. Thank you for listening.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you guys so much. Thank you.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Thank you.

[Lola Blanc]

Elvis, do you want a cookie?

[Frank Lyford]

This has been an exact Exactly Right production.

[Lola Blanc]

Our senior producers are Alejandra Keck and Molly Smith.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

[Lola Blanc]

This episode was mixed by Liana Squillace.

[Frank Lyford]

Our researchers are Marin McGlashan and Ali Elkin.

[Lola Blanc]

Email your hometowns to my favorite murdermail.com.

[Frank Lyford]

Follow the show on Instagram at my favorite murder.

[Lola Blanc]

Listen to my favorite murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Frank Lyford]

And now you can watch us on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Exactly Right's YouTube page.

[Frank Lyford]

While you're there, please like and and subscribe.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye.

[Megan Elizabeth]

Everyone thinks they'd never join a cult.

[Zach Krager]

But the truth is, it happens to smart, grounded, everyday people like us.

[Megan Elizabeth]

I'm Lola Blanc.

[Zach Krager]

And I'm Megan Elizabeth. We host Trust Me, a podcast about cults, extreme belief and manipulation.

[Megan Elizabeth]

And now Trust Me has a new home on the Exactly Right Podcast network alongside shows like My Favorite Murder and Buried Bones.

[Zach Krager]

New episodes of Trust Me premiere July 30th on exactly right. Listen, wherever you get your podcasts.