501 - Live at Bass Concert Hall (Austin Night 1)

Summary

Podcast Summary: My Favorite Murder – Episode 501: Live at Bass Concert Hall (Austin Night 1)

Date: October 9, 2025
Hosts: Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Location: Austin, Texas, Bass Concert Hall
Podcast Network: Exactly Right and iHeartPodcasts

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Overview

Episode 501 of My Favorite Murder takes place live in Austin, Texas, with Karen and Georgia bringing their signature true-crime comedy to the Bass Concert Hall. The duo offers hilarious banter, audience interaction, and two deeply absorbing true crime stories connected to Texas. The episode closes with a riveting hometown story from an audience member, tying local color and personal history to infamous Texas crime lore.

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Main Segments

1. Opening Banter & Texas Vibes (02:00–08:30)

• Karen and Georgia react to Austin’s lively and hot atmosphere, joke about matching outfits, and riff on the chaos and joy of live shows.
• Georgia recounts an amusing encounter with a “city raccoon” during a walk downtown with Vince.
  • Quote: “A fucking raccoon jumps out of a trash can holding food and climbs into a gutter. Boom. I fucking lost my mind.” (04:47 – Georgia)
• The duo lovingly teases the quirks of road life, returning to live touring, and introduces themselves for newcomers and the “drag along” crowd.
• They explain the show’s unique blend of true crime and comedy, emphasizing that their humor is a coping device not meant to trivialize crime.
  • Quote: “We don’t think murder is funny. We just think we’re funny. So that said, if you don’t like it, you can get the fuck out.” (08:11 – Karen)

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2. Story 1: The Kiss and Kill Murder of Betty Williams (08:30–35:05)

Summary

Georgia presents the infamous "Kiss and Kill" case from Odessa, Texas—a chilling and tragic 1961 murder. She draws from Pamela Colloff’s Texas Monthly article A Kiss Before Dying and the memoir Washed in the Blood by the victim’s cousin, Shelton Williams.

Highlights

• Setting: Odessa, a town overshadowed by its rowdy reputation and oil wealth—“Odessa is where you raise hell.” (13:15 – Georgia).
• Victim: Betty Williams, a sharp, rebellious 17-year-old “who pretended to be above it all,” was increasingly alienated yet longed for acceptance.
• Events Leading Up: After being shunned for her nonconformity and sexual openness, and suffering at home, Betty openly asks classmates (and her ex, Mac Herring) to help end her life—cries for help that tragically go unheeded.
  • “She spends the next several months telling multiple classmates that she wants to end her life and asks them to help her to do so, which is such a cry for help.” (20:49 – Georgia)
• The Murder: On March 20, 1961, Mac Herring, her football-player ex-boyfriend, shoots and kills Betty at her request, then calmly retrieves her body for police.
  • Quote: “He brings police to the land his father uses for hunting ... leads them to a pond ... takes off his leather jacket and all his clothes, goes into the water and pulls her body to shore.” (28:01 – Georgia)
• Aftermath: Mac, shockingly, is acquitted by a jury after pleading temporary insanity, lives an unremarkable life, and dies in 2019.
  • “The jury finds Mack not guilty. The prosecutor tries to appeal ... verdict is upheld, and Mack goes on to live a very normal life.” (32:10 – Georgia)
• Legacy: Betty becomes a ghostly legend at Odessa High—students tell stories, seek blessings before plays, and recount supernatural happenings connected to her.
  • “If you say the name Betty, sometimes you hear unaccounted for footsteps crossing the stage. And her presence is always talked about fondly.” (34:37 – Georgia)

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3. Story 2: The Great Texas Declaration of Independence Forgeries (38:00–81:11)

Summary

Karen details an audacious saga from Texas rare-books history: the forgery scandals surrounding the Texas Declaration of Independence (TDI) in the late 20th century. She uses sources including Texas Monthly, The New York Times, and Antiques Roadshow.

Highlights

• Protagonist: Tom Taylor, an honest rare bookseller, unwittingly resells expertly forged copies of the TDI, then dedicates himself to unmasking the fakes.
• Forgers & Eccentric Collectors: The caper involves three vibrant personalities—
  • John Jenkins: The flamboyant, gambling-loving dealer.
  • William Simpson: A shrewd, low-key Houston auctioneer.
  • C. Dorman David: Eccentric, wealthy, and ultimately the criminal mastermind with a passion for calligraphy, wives (seven!), and forgeries.
  • “He's incredibly, you know, charismatic and charming because he marries and divorces seven women.” (58:41 – Karen)
• Forging Methods: David uses antique papers, candle smoke and linseed oil ink, and photographic negatives as the basis for his “dupes.”
  • “He perfects his calligraphy ... even hires a trusted lithographer to enlarge negatives ... uses ink he makes out of candle smoke and linseed oil.” (63:27 – Karen)
• Impact: Many leading institutions—universities, libraries, even a governor’s private collection—are duped by the fakes.
• Downfall: David’s addiction, reckless behavior, and antagonism of fellow dealers draw law enforcement attention; ultimately, he confesses forgery to The New York Times.
  • Quote: “In an interview ... David admits he's directly responsible for the two fake declarations that Tom Taylor sold. And he even explains how Tom's one genuine copy served as the template for his later dupes.” (70:48 – Karen)
• Aftermath: The forgeries become so notorious, they acquire value in their own right. No one is prosecuted—there’s too much plausible deniability.
  • “According to PBS’s Antiques Roadshow, David’s fake Texas Declarations ... can be worth up to $1,000 today from buyers.” (80:29 – Karen)

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4. Audience Hometown Story: Taking Down a Texas Cult (87:10–93:20)

Summary

Laura, an audience member, shares her harrowing connection to helping expose the polygamous YFZ Ranch cult near El Dorado, Texas.

Highlights

• Laura was born profoundly Mormon; relatives were polygamists involved in infamous cults.
  • “My great-great-great grandfather was one of the first converts and was called polygamy when he came to Salt Lake City. ... A lot of my family is still polygamists, so I know these people.” (87:55)
• After leaving a marriage to a man tied to cult leader Warren Jeffs, she used online forums and LiveJournal to collect and report cult activity data.
• Her sleuthing eventually provided crucial evidence to the Texas Rangers, including details about hidden rooms designed to destroy DNA evidence.
  • Quote: “Somebody had asked on a chat board, does anybody have a blueprint for a potato burning shed that gets hot enough to destroy DNA evidence?” (90:19 – Laura)
• Laura’s tips contributed to the investigation and conviction of cult leaders—and she finally received back child support with interest from her ex-husband thanks to investigative coordination with the Rangers!
  • Quote: “A month after all of this happened, I got an email ... with a list of all known aliases ... I got my child support with interest.” (92:34 – Laura)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Texas energy:
  “This is insane. Our second city of our 2025 tour. … It would have been our first, but we were waiting for it to kind of get a little cooler here. And then we couldn't wait anymore, so we decided to come.” (02:51–03:08 – Karen)
• About true crime + comedy:
  “We don't think murder is funny. We just think we're funny. So that said, if you don't like it, you can get the fuck out.” (08:13 – Karen)
• Kiss and Kill Case:
  “He brings police to the land ... leads them to a pond ... pulls her body to shore.” (28:01 – Georgia)
• Forgeries:
  “He perfects his calligraphy. ... He even hires a trusted lithographer ... and prints versions ... using ink he makes out of candle smoke and linseed oil.” (63:34 – Karen)
• Audience story punchline:
  “I helped the Texas Rangers take down the polygamous sex cult at the YFZ Ranch in El Dorado, Texas.” (87:17 – Laura)
• Georgia on stagecraft:
  “People over 40 should not be on stage. Why is this happening?” (25:44 – Georgia, in a self-deprecating live-show riff)

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Segment Timestamps

| Segment | Start | End | Notes | |--------------------------------------------|---------|---------|--------------------------------------------------------------| | Opening Banter & Texas Vibes | 02:00 | 08:30 | Outfits, live energy, “drag alongs” explanation | | Kiss and Kill Murder Story (Georgia) | 08:30 | 35:05 | Detailed true crime story, Odessa, TX | | Texas Declaration Forgeries (Karen) | 38:00 | 81:11 | Rare books, forgers, Texana, “Real Housewives” parallels | | Audience Hometown Story (Laura) | 87:10 | 93:20 | Texas Rangers, cult, early Internet sleuthing | | Closing Banter/Audience Praise | 93:20 | 93:46 | Thanks and farewells (content ends, followed by outro/ads) |

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Tone & Style

The episode blends sharp, irreverent humor with deep empathy for victims and a genuine curiosity about human behavior. Karen and Georgia’s conversational tone is quick, self-aware, and peppered with witty asides, audience banter, and affectionate ribbing.

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Conclusion

Why listen?
This live Austin episode showcases everything My Favorite Murder fans love: darkly compelling Texas crime, jaw-dropping twists, infectious chemistry, cultural context, and the warmth of community—both among the hosts and with the audience.

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Stay Sexy, and Don’t Get Murdered!

Transcript

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Ad Read Voice]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

Then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mintmobile do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sa. Oh my gosh, you're loud in here. Yay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so exciting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are you running in place? Where are you going? What's that? You running in place?

[Karen Kilgariff]

A little bit. It's just so loud and exciting and hot. Jesus, it's hot here.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is insane. Our second city of our 2025 tour.

[Ad Read Voice]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It would have been our first, but we were waiting for it to kind of get a little cooler here. And then we couldn't wait anymore, so we decided to come.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We came and we match somehow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This was a mistake. Like this was. This was unplanned. This is what starts happening to your brain after 10 years of podcasting together.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right, your purple sink aesthetic.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sinking is what they call it in science.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, tell them about your outfit since we're talking about it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, I got this outfit. It's by a designer named Kevin hall and it has pockets. Thank You. Gorgeous.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So pretty.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you. And how about your outfit, Georgie?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you. I have a velvet insane, drunk aunt at the Christmas party outfit that has. Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It has questionable vintage stains on it and cowboy boots.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because we're in Texas.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. Obviously, we're playing the part here. I love that aunt that is drunk. She just fed some cows and came in. She's like, God damn this Christmas party.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Where's my eggnog and my cigarette?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Give it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I need to stain this dress.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is the true crime comedy podcast. My favorite murder.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If you didn't. Thank you. That's Karen Kilgarra.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's Georgia Hardstark.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I met a Texas raccoon last night. What's this? I met a raccoon. Vince and I were just going for a walk after dinner downtown. I don't know if it's downtown, but it felt like it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There were buildings these days.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, there were lots of buildings.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And just like out of nowhere, a fucking raccoon jumps out of a trash can holding food and climbs into a gutter. Boom. When I fucking lost my mind like a city raccoon is the most exciting thing to me. And I was like, wait, wait, wait. Come back, come back. I have questions. I want to interview you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you have an accent?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was so cute. So I'm clearly starved for animal love at this very moment.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I mean, I guess the raccoons in Austin are very well fed because every bite of food I've had since I've gotten here is the best thing I've ever eaten. It's ridiculous.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ridiculous. Have you had queso yet?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No. Sadly, that'll be my goal before I leave here.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Bucket of queso.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Race to Quueso the next 48 hours. I got a hamburger at a place called Eureka, and they said, these are the best burgers ever. And we were like, we're from Los Angeles. And then we ate, and it was the best burger ever.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nice. Yeah, nice.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Had some fajitas.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fajitas.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And these, I think, homemade flour tortillas. Like, the tortillas were like, someone cared about me as I ate it, which is how you should make food, I think.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Audience Member Laura]

Anyway.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Should we sit down?

[Karen Kilgariff]

You want to sit down? Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, guys. Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're very new to this. It's been six years and six fucking years. It's a little crazy. We didn't think anyone was going to come this time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And you guys haven't heard. The first night of Denver, we didn't remember our lines. We don't know what we're doing. We don't know where we are most of the time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So if there's, like, podcast authorities here tonight, we're going to get a bad report card for sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Absolutely. But do you want to tell them about the podcast?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. This is the speech I have to remember. Literally, I had it printed out because I was like, this is the kind of thing that you just. When you do it all the time, it's no big deal. And then that first night in Denver, I was like, literally, like, line. I don't get what. But we like to explain ourselves because sometimes it shows. There are people. We call them drag alongs, lovingly. They're people who don't want to listen to this podcast but are forced to constantly. And we say hi to you. We thank you for your patience and your love of your partner that you would listen to these two assholes blab around all through your road trip or whatever it is you're doing. Some drag alongs come, and they don't listen to the podcast, and they don't like it, and they think to themselves, true crime and comedy, those two things don't go together. So we just want you to know, you know, we're two people who grew up. Our childhoods were the type where there was a lot of coping with comedy types of things. So when we approach difficult. The difficult parts of life, we often do that with humor. We don't think murder is funny. We just think we're funny. So that said, if you don't like it, you can get the fuck out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right? You got it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not only did I remember it, I added to it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know. Yeah. That's how comfortable you are.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. We're right back on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like riding a bike. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

An audio bike.

[Georgia Hardstark]

An audio bike. Well, yeah. So we're gonna tell you some stories tonight. Should I. Should we do this?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, you go first. Right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm first, I think. Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, let's do it. So we have done almost 500 episodes, and I feel like a quarter of them have taken place in Texas. I know many, many, many, many do not fuck around. So it has been hard to find new stories in cities we go to, except for Texas. So great job.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And we'd like to say. We'd like to thank the Texas Monthly publication.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Incredible, incredible publication. Skip Hollingsworth, particularly. We would like to thank an incredible writer who. He lets us regurgitate his stuff and then go, hey, did you hear? Skip Hollingsworth really research this story. It's great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, it's funny that you say that because this story that I'm going to tell tonight, it was kind of forgotten. It was a very high profile case here in Texas. It was kind of forgotten except for in the small town it took place in. But then a journalist named Pamela Koloff wrote a Texas monthly story about it. Hey, you're not going to fucking believe that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's the. Yeah, our psychic purple link tonight.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And that revived the case, but it's still not as well known. Maybe you guys know it. This. This is the Kiss and Kill murder from Odessa. Anyone from Odessa? Yes. So she wrote an article called A Kiss Before Dying. I remember the story from Late nights. Scrolling. And it's just wild and unexpected. So here we go. Do you know it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I do not.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, so the main source is the Texas Monthly article that I just said and a memoir by the cousin of the victim, Shelton Williams called Washed in Blood. Nope, called Washed in the Blood. And so those are very different.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Those are two very different things. As a person raised as a Catholic, those are two different ideas.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is that a thing?

[Karen Kilgariff]

What's that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Blood. Washing and blood.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We love blood over in the Christian area. We talk about it a lot. It's very holy. Gross sometimes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. And the rest of the sources can be found in our show notes, but not right now because this is live in the future. In the future of show notes. All right, so in 1961, Betty Williams is a 17 year old high school senior at Odessa High school. It's about 300 miles away from here. It's the real place of the fictional place where Saturday Night Lights took place.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, Friday Night Lights.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's what I meant.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, just a combination. This combination.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know, the sketch, the sketch football show, Saturday Night Lights. You can tell how well I grew up in sports. I didn't. We don't. Jewish people don't do sports. So we didn't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm at the 50 yard line. It's a really, really good show though.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, it is incredible. Do you know, I once saw her. What's her name? She's so cute. No, not Connie Britton. Minka Kelly. Minka Kelly. Vince and I were in Germany on vacation and we were waiting at an elevator at her hotel and up comes Minka Kelly, looking so gorgeous I couldn't believe it. And I was like, oh, she was with a boyfriend. And I was like, look at that. Like, you know meathead she's with. I was like, he must be her trainer. Like how. Good for her for getting a hot piece or whatever. And we look it up later, and he's the singer of Imagine Dragons. No, no, no. Yeah. Singer, Imagine Dragons. I was like, good for her for getting this honk.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Whatever.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He worships at her feet. And he's, like, the singer of the biggest band that's ever. So what do I know? Not sports, not music, no podcasting. Not podcasting.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We just know this exact thing we're doing right now. Luckily, it's working out right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank God. Okay, so it's about 300 miles west of here, and it's a pretty big town at this point. A booming population. There's local oil fields, so that falls the population. And there's money in the area because of that oil. But the stereotype is that most of the people with money live in nearby Midland. They don't stick in. Mitchy Rich over here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Are you really from Midland?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Congratulations.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you think, for the rest of this show, you would be our audience ambassador? Whenever we pronounce something wrong or do it wrong, everyone's gonna yell all at the same time. But we don't know what anyone's saying.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Minka Kelly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So you can be the one that we're gonna look at you and be like, hey, Midland, what's going on? And you can be like, they're saying, minka Kelly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's agreeing to it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, great, great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So the quote is that Midlands is where you raise your kids. Odessa is where you raise hell.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hey.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And actually a Murderino named Rachel. I checked our emails, and she wrote in and said Odessa is consistently voted as one of the most violent cities in Texas and the US As a whole because of the rampant street races. I don't know why I pointed at you.

[Audience Member Laura]

Oh, shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I wasn't supposed to tell anyone about you and your street racing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I've been arrested for street racing and drag. What's the thing? Fading and dragging. Midland. What is it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Furious. Fast and Furious.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Donuts.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Donuts, yeah. Street racing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry, what's your actual name?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Christy Drifting. Her name is not Drifting. Drifting.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Christy Drifter. That's insane. What a coincidence. It is. Drifting. That was what I was thinking of.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's true. She passed the test. She's good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She is good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That was a test.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Midland.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. Rampant street races, drunk driving. And then she wrote, and, you know, drugs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In the 60s, it was similar. So that's where we are. Thank you to Rachel, the Murderino, for giving us a.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is that you?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think this was in, like, 2018 that she wrote this, so she might not be a listener anymore.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, we're still kind of churning through that Gmail. There's a lot of stuff in there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Please be patient.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That said, all things relative. And for Betty, Odessa is very square. She kind of sounds like me growing up in the suburbs, where it's like, oh, no, I'm stuck in this place that I don't fit in at. I want to get out. But it's the 60s, so you kind of can't leave. Right. They couldn't leave in the 60s.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. Everyone is locked in.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Betty probably would have done really well in, like, a, you know, in Austin or a bigger hipper town, but unfortunately, she's struggling in Odessa. She's a big fan of the writing of Jack Kerouac and Allen Ginsberg. She loves Lenny Bruce's standup, and she frequently rails against segregation and calls out the racism she sees all around her, even though she's raised by a Baptist preacher. So she's just, like, rebellious in a.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Small town and also a good person.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. She likes to go against the grain. When she's bored, she goes to the local diner wearing all black and white lipstick and not putting on a bra, which I think even today is like, oh, my right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Doing it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So Pamela Cauliff describes Betty's appearance by saying she had, quote, sandy blonde hair that brushed her shoulders and big, expressive blue eyes that could feign sincerity when talking to authority figures, but were alive with irreverence. So she was, you know, sharp. Odessa is ruled, though, by football, shockingly, football team about 30 years later, as I said in the book Friday Night Lights.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Capital F. Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And, you know, it is that culture there even then. And so in the 60s, the popular girls are known around. Are known around town as the Cashmere Girls. That's their nickname. I don't know why, because that sounds really fucking hot in Texas to be wearing cashmere. I mean, maybe like a light silk. Yeah, the Light Silk Gang.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The Cashmere Girls, AKA the Sweaty Bitches.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. And they even belong to little mini sororities within their high school. And they're rich and, of course, you know, obedient when their parents are paying attention. They're conformists, unlike Betty. And her family does struggle financially. And her father is deeply religious, and he's constantly reminding Betty of all the ways that she, in his eyes, fails to measure up to his very rigid set of standards. So Betty does have friends, and she writes notes to them in classes and. But she's just kind of over it in her city.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I. Yeah, it sounds like she's very Alone or you know, kind of alienated.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. And so she's cool, but she's still a teenager and people know her, say that well, she pretends to be above it all. She also deeply wants to be accepted. And she sees the world in that classic teenage way where they think that things have to happen immediately. You know, all this is to say it's difficult for her. It sounds like nowadays she maybe would have gotten some mental health help, as we all need, but back then and with religious parents, it's not going to happen. So she does start having sex around with the boys at school because she's bored. Did you just.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Woohoo. I love you. You can't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's fun.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so fun. She's not wrong, she's not incorrect. And so because of that, of course she gets talked about a lot by the popular girls. She dreams of getting out of Odessa and becoming an actress, but she also can't imagine that and picture a realistic path forward. She's the oldest of four, her family's poor, so she doesn't know where she'd get the money to leave or go to college. And so during the summer between Betty's junior and senior year, she winds up in a relationship with a boy named Mac Herring. And it's more like. Not really a real relationship. It's more real than she's had in the past, so. But it sounds like he just kind of isn't willing to like make it public that he's dating her. They won't go to. He won't take her to parties and he won't acknowledge that, you know, that she's his girlfriend. Give her. Give him his letter jacket as a thing, I guess.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That happens with sports.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It does, yeah, it does. So you're basically saying he's an asshole, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. It's not ideal.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And so Betty, at the end of the summer, maybe cause she's feeling hurt, she hooks up with someone else and Mac finds out and ends the relationship. And so this is a huge blow for Betty and only gets worse when school starts. It's her senior year and for one reason or another, she doesn't get cast in the school play. And like I said, she wanted to be an actress. It's like part of her personality. It's a really big deal to her also.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's where the kids who don't belong other places go. Theater department is like, that's where it's at if you're not a jock and you're not a cheerleader, right? Yeah. I can't. I have rehearsal. That's how we cope.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I wish I had known that. I'm also not a good actress. But I could still have been there, Right. They would have accepted me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You would have done great in there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I could have built sets. I don't know. Is that a thing?

[Karen Kilgariff]

You love a black turtleneck. You would have been great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So it sounds like this kind of, like, just kind of brings her down in a way that it sounds like as someone with depression, she gets really depressed. Things get worse at home, and her friends all say that things have gotten pretty bad. Her father, very religious, devote Baptists. But he takes it to the next level. He goes into her room and reads her diary and finds out about all the traits she's had. And it sounds like her father is at least verbally abusive and her mother is passive about it. That's the most we kind of know about it. But by the winter, Betty is telling classmates that she wants to die today. Of course, as I said, this would be taken seriously, you would hope, and she'd get some mental health help. But in 1961, everyone in the community just kind of chalks it up to Betty being dramatic.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Dramatic, of course.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right, yeah. She spends the next several months telling multiple classmates that she wants to end her life and asks them to help her to do so, which is such a cry for help. It's like, not even.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. It's like people need. You need to be. You need the skills and the communication. So you're a teenager, and there's another teenager telling you a really scary thing that, like, what do you do? You laugh it off, you freak out. You don't know what to do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. And so it sounds like no one actually believes that she's gonna go through with her plan. And then on March 20, 1961, Betty's at school and she runs into that summer ex. And she says to him, quote, it's been nice knowing you. And when he asked her what she's talking about, she says she's going to talk Mac into killing her. What? She says. Two days later, Betty gets a ride home from rehearsals for the school play, but she's not in. But it sounds like maybe she was a stage manager or doing sets or something from a classmate named Ike. And she suggests he comes back a half an hour later, and she'll sneak back out to meet him. And she tells him. She tells this guy Ike that Mac has agreed to kill her. And Ike is like, there's no way she's serious, doesn't take it seriously. I think we have a photo of Mac and Betty. Actually. That's them. I know. Isn't she lovely?

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's gorgeous.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, like, it's always that thing where it's like when people tell you and it feels like everyone that ever went to high school, it's just like, oh, it was miserable. It sucked. In this way, here's why I think I did. I wasn't good. People didn't like me. And then it's like. It's like, why wouldn't anyone not like you? Like that. That kind of thing where you're just like, yes, that's a teenage dream couple right there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right? Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Meanwhile, I had the most fucked up bangs and I plucked this eyebrow back to here. I had a lot going against me, but I did have the theater.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You had the theater?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I did.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So she. At 10:30 that night, she sneaks out of her house, meets Ike, and then Mac drives up to where they are. And Ike is so sure that Betty had been joking about Mac killing her that he doesn't even stop her from getting out of the car and going with him. He says that Betty turns over her, Turns over her shoulder as she's leaving and says, quote, I've got to call his bluff even if he kills me. So from Ike's perspective, it sounds like the scenario Betty is imagining is from one of one which Mac doesn't actually go through with it. Who knows what everyone. What was going through everyone's mind. But unfortunately for the rest of the story, the only perspective we have and the only version we have is Max and Betty's parents report. So Betty's parents report her missing the next morning. Burping. Excuse me. Wow. It's really terrible on stage to do that. Look embarrassing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You'll work it out. By the end of this tour, you'll never do it again.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I wasn't in theater class. I don't know how to silently burp.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You just push it down and silently fart.

[Audience Member Laura]

It's not true.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know how to do that either.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's not true.

[Audience Member Laura]

I know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can you tell?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Why is this so hard? It's so weird. We do it all the time and we like doing it. This is hard. It's really intense.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Especially when you're going through perimenopause.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's the difference. That's the difference. Six years later this time, menopause is upon us. Ladies and gentlemen, six years ago, I.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Was in my 30s still.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Who is she?

[Georgia Hardstark]

This feels so good. Who was she?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you want me to do that while you talk?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Please. I want some. Thank you. Oh, my. I'm wearing, like, velvet gown.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, you're wearing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What the fuck?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Polyester. Like, the hottest thing you could be wearing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Spanx.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What is happening?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're welcome.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Appreciate you. Okay, and we're back. So Betty's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All of that would have been edited out of the regular podcast. So just like, now we just have to do it in front of.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That doesn't not. Oh, she's a fan.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, do you want that fan? Oh, my God. Yeah, we'll take the fan. Thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So, Naim, you're an angel.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's the fan from Moulin Rouge.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you so much. But now you're gonna be so sweating.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You don't have a fan.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, you're okay. She has a sweater on, so I think she's okay. Thank you. Oh, my God. That was just.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Awesome.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What a look too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do I. I mean, is it working?

[Karen Kilgariff]

This look is coming together. Snap it out. Slay, slay, girl. Slay, slay. You good?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. All right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And death drop right in the front of this. Come on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. The drag alongs are angry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're like, what is this thing happening? We don't get it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

People over 40 should not be on stage. Why is this happening?

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're here to fight for the sweaty.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, Texas Austin gets it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So. Okay, back into the shit. They report her missing, and the police quickly pull out her classmates for questioning, including the some that tell them that the last time they saw her, she was getting into Mac's car and that, you know, things were not going well with her. And police question Mac. He claims that he picked Betty up like Ike said, but that he dropped her back off at her house at midnight without waiting to see if she got in, which we know you guys don't fucking do in Texas. Right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, very rude.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. This obviously is suspicious to investigators for that very reason. And she was wearing. She had snuck out of her house, so she was wearing, like, pajamas and, like, a duster robe, and so. And they're skeptical that he would leave a girl standing on her porch in her pajamas. And they're also skeptical that she would have gone back through the front door, because when you sneak out, you have to sneak back in, usually hopefully through a window. Hopefully there's a window that's not too high. Yeah, the thought the window I used to have to sneak in and out of, I think like back to now. I could have broken my fucking neck. Like, it's insane.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Was it second story?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Second story. And then you had to leap to a landing that was like over the shed. So probably wasn't very sturdy to begin with. I could have fallen right through it. And then you had to leap back into the door, into the window.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All that on drugs.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We all do a lot of things and we all have. And it's fine.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's really fun. And then you get a podcast.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's right. If you do enough of those things, you get a podcast.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So she had to sneak back in. So probably didn't go to the front door. And after a 45 minute interrogation, the whole story comes out. He says that Betty had been begging him, like others at school, to kill her. And he said he finally agreed to it and that she. This is his story, selected a 12 gauge shotgun and that he did it. He admits it in 1961. Like, what the fuck?

[Karen Kilgariff]

What I mean.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He brings police to the land that his father uses for hunting about 25 miles out. And there he leads them to a pond and they. Police see that there's blood on the ground and they ask him to retrieve her body. He takes off his leather jacket and all his clothes, goes into the water and pulls her body to shore. Oh my God. I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cause the idea, we have to entertain this idea too. The Maccas been pulled into this idea. So we don't want to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But there is a horrible consideration that this is a person who is trying to just give a person what they want because they are begging for it. Like, that's. Yeah, it's a crazy consideration, but what a horrible situation.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. And like you'd hope the first thing they do is like, go get help.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do something. Tell one other person.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He said that. It's just awful. She chose the spot. She was like into it. She gave him a kiss and then he shot her. One of Betty's close friends said that it was always abundantly clear that Betty truly didn't want to die. And that Betty was bluffing, trying to get Mac to tell her that she was loved and wanted by him. This friend says, quote, I always believed Mac's script was, I'll teach her a lesson. And she'll be so scared at how close we came to doing this. She will grow up and stop the dramatic. The dramatics. And that Betty's thought was. She thinks. Betty's thought was, when Max sees how miserable I am and how much I love him, he'll Realize that we should be together. So just teenage decisions horrifying every direction. Yeah. So something terribly flawed led him to step over the line and. And shoot. And so at that point, a highway patrolman who was present at the scene says, quote, it didn't move him when he pulled her body out of the water or when he said that he put a shotgun. He had put a shotgun to her head. It was as cold blooded and premeditated as it could be. So this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So the authorities think that he did do it, like wanted to do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It sounds like they didn't see any remorse and didn't show any fear or regret is what they think. Mac is charged with Betty's murder, but it sounds like he gets out on parole in the beginning because he goes back to school and around town and he doesn't experience any negative impacts to his social standing. He still goes to parties. Remember, he was like, you know, football player, popular. He goes to parties, he goes to. He still dates girls still date him. And the attitude around town by everyone except for Betty's close friends is that she tricked Mac into killing her. So they have sympathy for him. And, you know, her friends don't believe it at all. And, you know, maybe, who knows? But in 1961, you know, the mentality was so different, of course. And just as Betty was never offered any kind of resources when she was asking classmates to kill her, no mental health resources were offered to the students at Odessa High School in the aftermath of her murder. Mack is charged and his case goes to trial a year later, in February of his senior year of high school. At the time, this is without a doubt the biggest crime story in Texas in decades. The press gives it the name kiss and kill murder, and it's a huge pool of jury selection. So there's like hundreds of teenagers showing up to the trial to watch it. And just people are obsessed with it. Most people expect Mack to be convicted because he admitted to shooting Betty. And what winds up happening is that his lawyers mount a temporary insanity defense and he takes the stand, saying he deeply regrets his actions. But in the moment, he was convinced he was doing the right thing. And in the end, after 11 hours of deliberation, the jury finds Mack not guilty. The prosecutor tries to appeal a decision, but the verdict is upheld, and Mack goes on to live a very normal life, remaining in Odessa and dies at the age of 75 in 2019. I know, like, what I mean, yeah, this is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is an insane story. I've never heard this. And I. I mean, just like Imagine.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Being on that jury. Like, how do you. How do you make any decision if.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You read this story in the news?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, if I did, I would absolutely go to that courthouse because I'd be like, what is going on? Like, how are they even arguing?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What are the details of this and how are they arguing it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right, right. Yeah. So as I said, Betty's cousin Shelton wrote this, wrote the memoir while he was writing. In 2001, he visits Odessa High School, and by that point, a lot of Betty's story had been lost to time, and the students don't really know the details. But Betty's ghost is, like, a big deal at Odessa High School. Like, there's tales of it everywhere. So some believe that if you drive up to the site of the school auditorium and blink your lights, she'll appear. And they talk about her being in the auditorium where the theater was. That's, like, where she remained because she wanted to be. So you can see her ghost there. Others think you can see her in the sports field. And a teacher says, quote, there's even a propriety dispute between athletics and theater about whose ghost she is. He says, I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, that's okay. That shouldn't be going on. Let's settle that dispute and just say, it's everybody's fucking ghost. What are you doing?

[Georgia Hardstark]

And, I mean, there could be more than one ghost, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, she belongs to everyone.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, well, this person said that. I can settle that one. She belongs to the theater.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's kind of sweet that they, like, claimed her, you know? Yeah, maybe. And Rachel, the murderino who doesn't listen anymore, said, quote, I graduated from Odessa High School. Betty is a fixture in the culture of the school, where kids go on Betty hunts late at night in or around campus, where they hope to see her in the windows of the auditorium, peering out over the school. Theater productions tend to ask for Betty's blessing, so everything goes smoothly as well before their new play. So she's remembered. And theater students say sometimes doors close mysteriously or furniture moves mysteriously. Stage lights, like, blink on and off. If you say the name Betty, sometimes you hear unaccounted for footsteps crossing the stage. And her presence is always talked about fondly. At Odessa High School, Betty is now beloved. And that is the story of the Kiss and kill murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So heavy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you. Incredible.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Incredible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wild.

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[Karen Kilgariff]

You know what? I can see you as Mr. Darcy. You got a little Colin Firth.

[Ad Read Voice]

Okay, that's really sweet. I appreciate that, but are you sure I'm not the dad? I'm not Mr. Bennett here. Listen to Earsay the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm gonna take a left turn now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Please, I just talked into the fan and not the microphone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You gotta take those theater classes, I swear to God. Okay, well, I'm gonna tell you a story that's very different. And it kind of is about. I think the simplest way to boil it down is like nerds for Texas. Texas nerds. Right. Okay. So it starts in 1979, when a 27 year old rare books dealer in Austin named Tom Taylor gets what he thinks is this golden opportunity. A chance to buy a valuable document at a very low price. A copy of the text. Declaration of Independence.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Huh. You guys have your own.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. These are a very independent group of people. Oh, yeah. And they like things big. Okay. So for anyone who isn't from the state or who might need a refresher as to why Texas has its own Declaration of Independence. That's me. Oh, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Karen the scholar. You're gonna tell us. Tell us everything.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep. Guess what.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's because Texas used to be a part of Mexico until it declared independence in 1836.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You got it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Which was the same year that the Declaration of Independence was published. And it was an independent. The state was an independent Republic for nearly 10 years after breaking away from Mexico before joining the United States in. Good job. Yes. Texas.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's been waiting for life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She knew. She knew we were going to ask. That was incredible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did it. Oh, wait. It really is Moulin Rouge.

[Audience Member Laura]

It is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She was making it up like, oh, it's so. It's red. It's Moulin Rouge.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just reading. Just reading like I always do. Then the next thing I wrote was history lesson over. So the seller who approaches Tom to sell this is asking for $11,000 for his copy of the Texas Declaration of Independence, which would be around. Give it a whirl.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What year were we? 70.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's 79.

[Georgia Hardstark]

79. 11,000 is going to be 68,050. Shit. Oh, by the way, we're retiring this tour. We decided because we just.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Georgia keeps saying that. I refus.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I just hate it. It's never.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're never right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's disappointing every time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's kind of why I love it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, that's fine. That sounds like the podcast.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah, that's us.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which is disappointing, but we love it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Disappointing. We're never really right, but we love it. So while Tom's specialty is actually English literature, he knows enough about the rare items business that he's willing to bet that he can resell this copy for a way higher price. And so he buys it, and then he gets wind that there's a group of men who have raised enough money to buy a cop of the United States Declaration of Independence. You've heard of that, the Nicholas Cage one, because they want to display it in Dallas. So Tom talks these men into buying his copy of the Texas Declaration of Independence to, like, you know, get the same frame and go right next to it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, Twins. Twinsies. He.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They agree on the price of $20,000. All right, that's a profit, which in today's money might be $68,000. Now this, you don't do the same one because it was.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, $82,000.

[Karen Kilgariff]

90.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Damn it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Very close. Okay, but first, obviously, these men want to check the Texas Declaration of Independence's authenticity. Sure. So they compare Tom's version of it. I say Texas Declaration of Independence in this story about 100 times.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's call it the TD.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The TDI.

[Georgia Hardstark]

TDI. There you go.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That sounds like one of those technical colleges you go to. There's commercials for them. I went to tdi, and now I have a job. So they compare Tom's TDI against the copies that are held right here in Austin at the University of Texas.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, so, like, there's legit. Hey. Oh, my God. So there's a legit one. Then they could be like. Like, hold them up next to each other.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, exactly. There was the original, and then they made copies.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Got it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'll go into that later. But if I guess the amount of copies and the details, I'll be wrong. She'll be right. But I'll be wrong. Okay, so the only difference that they can find when they compare it is that the text on Tom's copy looks a little bit blurry compared to the rest. But when the original documents were printed back in. No, 1836. It's when they were printed. It's when they were printed. They printed 1000 total, the printers. Is she arguing? She's like, that's actually incorrect. And I wish she wouldn't continue with the story until you get it right. The printers that made them had to issue a public apology for inconsistencies in quality because the original printers, they had to print those amid actual battles with Mexican troops. So sometimes they were in the dark. They were, like, setting up and breaking down the printing presses.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You can't take a break?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like a couple months off or something? No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

From war?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They don't let you. They just won't let you. So they had to move them from place to place. And so actually, the blurry text kind of makes it seem like they're legit. And so these men pay Tom $20,000.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And not long after, Tom gets a chance to buy yet another copy of the Texas Declaration of Independence, this time for $15,000. And now, this feels extremely lucky because that first sale went so well. So Tom jumps on this sale, too, and he winds up reselling this copy for $30,000.

[Georgia Hardstark]

99,135. See, it's never satisfied.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's not satisfying. It's kind of just irritating. Then, lo and behold, Tom finds out about a third opportunity.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, no. I think we're all onto him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So this one, it's for 30. He resells it for 33. We don't have to worry about what happens in today's money. But this is when Tom starts to question his luck. There were only 1,000 copies of the original printed, and before 1970, there were only five known original copies left.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay?

[Karen Kilgariff]

And so he's like, I run across three of the five. That's insane. So he starts to worry if what he has bought and sold are fake, and if so, who is making them? And this is the story of Tom Taylor's investigation into the Texana artifacts.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Whoa.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes or no? He should have just walked away and, you know, wiped his hands of it and enjoyed the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They bought it. Not my problem. He just never thinks about it again. But that's the thing. He's a good guy. Okay, so the sources for this story that we used are an article from the Great Texas Monthly entitled Forgery Texas Style by a writer named Gregory Curtis, and then an article from the New York Times called Lone Star Fakes by Lisa Belkin, and an article from the Antiques Roadshow subpage on their website called who Faked the Texas Independent Documents by Sarah K. Elliott. You know, when Antiques Roadshow's getting in on this shit, it is serious.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The rest are in our future show notes that don't exist right now. So we're gonna talk now about what I said there. Which is Texana. The Texana artifacts. So Texana is. I've never heard of it. It's basically anything reminiscent of the culture of Texas. So, like the delicious Tex Mex cuisine I've been eating? Or honky tonks? Or your cowboy boots?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or chicken chip bingo.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Chicken shit bingo in the afternoon.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You don't know how sad we were when he found out it's Sundays only. I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was one of the best days of our life, being at chicken chick bingo. Yeah, it was epic.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't think anyone knows what we're talking about. You do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, they do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You guys have chicken shit bingo in Austin.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So awesome.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Jealous.

[Karen Kilgariff]

One of the other One of these other things that I wanted to name is Willie Nelson getting stoned, but it's too late now because.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's okay. We needed to have a chicken chip bingo moment. Either way, this is basically a catch all for historic artifacts or collectibles like old maps, personal items owned by Texas's forefathers. So for decades following the formation of modern Texas, there isn't much interest in these kinds of items from collectors or rare items dealers as a whole. So even very important artifacts like the Texas Declaration of Independence are not considered particularly valuable. The first notable Texana collector is a New Jersey oil businessman and a history buff named Thomas Streeter. So he takes a lot of business trips out to Texas in the 20s and 30s and he buys a bunch of books and artifacts, and he is actually credited with gathering the first significant collection of Texana in the world. But in 1957, when Streeter offers to sell his entire collection to the University of Texas, interest in Texana is so low, they don't want it. No, thanks. We're not interested in our own history or anything that's been going on here. Oh, man. So he winds up selling everything to Yale. Boo. Even the Texas state government doesn't care much about the historical documents in their possession. Land grants, meeting minutes, even the original manuscript of the famous Texas Revolutionary era victory or death letter that William B. Travis wrote, which is the namesake of the county that we're in right now. Those are all put on display without any security measures. And in the 60s, countless historical artifacts are stolen from public institutions.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's like going into a diner and like taking the salt and pepper shaker, like, eoink, I'll take that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But it's the Texas Declaration of motherfucking Independence. No one cares. They're just gone. People are like, I thought we had that thing up here. And actually, could we take a look? Because we can see what it would have looked like. Yep. It's just like, who stole my big thing?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I could have sworn this wasn't an empty frame yesterday, but I guess you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just replace it with any old other newspaper front page or something. You're just like. Unless you've got your readers on, you have no idea. But then Texas economic boom and the growth of urban sprawl. I don't know if you heard about this, but Texas got super rich on oil a little after this. So these old traditional rural ways of life start disappearing across the state, right? And as they do, the older generations start to pass away and there's this new sense of. Of Nostalgia for the old way of Texas living. And people get more interested in finding and collecting Texana. And the value of these items start going up and up. And as they do, rare items dealers in the state start prioritizing Texana. It becomes more and more profitable heading into the 70s. Now, there's a security guard standing in front of that framed piece of paper. So in 1986, a few years after Tom Taylor's first declaration score, his suspicions are confirmed. And so let's take a. Can we take a look at Tom Taylor? This is him in 2021.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There he is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, he likes books.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So honest history.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He loves the past.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And he's honest. He doesn't take the money and run.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But he also, based on that shirt, parties hardy. Totally. He's like, make no mistake, I will be at chicken chip bingo this Sunday. Meet me there. Okay? But this is 1986.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So this is the year that Tom learns. A friend and fellow printer was asked to authenticate yet another original copy of the tdi. And it had recently come up on the rare items market. And so his friend started comparing the copy against one housed at the University of Texas. And at first glance, they seemed identical. But then he spotted a crucial difference. The text on his copy seemed much narrower than the original. So Tom's friend, like any good printer, knows that ink doesn't shrink over time, especially when it has lead in it, which is what they used in the back then in the 1830s. So the only explanation was that this document he was authenticating was printed way after, and it was a fake. So now Tom decides he's going to devote his time to becoming the go to guy when it comes to authenticating the Texas Declaration of Independence, which is quite a pastime.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, you're at a party and you ask someone what they do, and they say that. How do you respond?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like, have you watched Real Housewives? It's also good. So he hunts down the 20ish known copies, the ones that are on display and also in private collections, and he forensically analyzes them, and he discovers there are actually 10, not five, as previously thought, that are genuine copies of the TDI, which means about half of them are fakes. So including two copies that Tom bought and sold himself. So he's a part of it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But he doesn't like that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, not a big white job. Don't make me a criminal.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no, no, no, for sure. But they're really good fakes. So the people in the institutions that have been duped by these fakes include several universities here in Texas and beyond, the Dallas Public Library, and even the private collection of former governor Bill Clements. But got some Clemence Heads in the house tonight.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So Tom starts finding very subtle tells in these fakes, like inaccuracies and text dimensions. Stay with me. Use of inks and fonts that don't exist. Back then.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Someone did copy paste and, like, shrunk the font. Come on, guys.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Come on. It just says Yahoo at the bottom. And there's even small typos in the face.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So by looking through sales records, Tom's able to trace these fakes back to these three dealers who were very active in the 70s. I'm going to introduce you now to these three rare, like, antiquities Texana dealers, starting with a man named John Jenkins. So we take a look at John Jenkins.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh. Oh, he got a lot of chips in front of him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's amazing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's a fucking time and place. That's like that cigarette and those nails.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Over that lady over there. Oh, yeah, yeah. She's like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's. Raise, raise. You got it. You got a good hand.

[Ad Read Voice 2]

Raise.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You gotta raise.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You should raise.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, stay, stay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Who's winning this chips?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. John Jenkins grew up in Beaumont, Texas. And it's great, right? So awesome. All the chips and cats. He takes an early interest in rare objects. He, like, as a kid, makes money selling rare coins. And then when he graduates from ut, he starts his own business selling rare coins and books and historical documents. But he's also a big Texas personality. He is fond of Stetsons, as we saw. Alligator skin cowboy boots like you like, and even mink coats. Like I like what? He wears mink coats?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, shit. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I didn't put that together. Put that whole look together of the alligator boots and a mink coat. Nice Stetson. Oh, my God. Probably a nice one of those brown cigarettes. It's real long.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And some barbecue. He sits behind a massive desk in an equally massive mahogany chair decorated with snake and dragon carvings. And he spends his off hours, as we saw in the photo, gambling in Vegas under the fake name Austin Squatty.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Does that mean something we don't know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Perhaps.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no, no. They say no Squatty. Austin Squatty. I'm gonna check into hotels with that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Name from now on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You'll never find me. He's a high roller, regularly winning and losing enormous amounts of money at the tables. So another dealer is named William Simpson. He's far less eccentric, but equally successful at Selling his collectibles. He opens his shop in Houston in 1964, and he sells things. Houston? He sells.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What? That's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Am I wrong, or did that sound like a boo and a yay at the same time? So whose side are we on, Houston?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nobody. We're neutral. We're neutral.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, we love everybody equally. He sells things like crystals, linens, and furniture. But as Texana becomes more popular, he jumps on that bandwagon and he starts holding auctions that are packed and profitable. Half the time, people are buying from rarities dealers like Jenkins and Simpson, but they aren't collectors or enthusiasts. They're usually other rarities dealers who want to get something for less and then turn it around and sell it for a bigger profit. That's how popular it has become. And that's what Tom Taylor was doing. And this makes for a highly competitive industry full of gossip and clickiness and enemies and frenemies just like the Real Housewives. Having a good eye and good taste is one thing, but without the right people skills, a dealer could be dismissed as kind of a joke. And that's exactly how both Jenkins and Simpson come to view the man linked to all the dupes Tom Taylor keeps finding. And that man's name is C. Dorman. David. And I think we have a picture of him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

God, he looks like your new stepdad. You know what I mean? Kids, I met a man, and I want you to meet your new stepdad.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. There's a bit of. He's like, I'm gonna stop dyeing my hair, but I'm not gonna stop dying my eyebrows. That vibe.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It'S a look.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's an amazing picture of him that I think Molly didn't clear for, like, we couldn't clear it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But it's black and white, and he's kind of like this. It looks like he wrote a book about Carl Jung or something. So he's kind of like this, and he's got a turtleneck and a blazer on, and he's like, over to the side. And that's the last picture I saw, so I forgot. This is the picture. This has a true AI quality, where it's like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But anyway, hilarious. So he was born in 1937 in Houston to very, very wealthy parents. He grows up. He's a tall, imposing man. He has a reputation as both a womanizer. He ends up having. Yes. Applaud for the womanizer. Absolutely. Because you know why? He has seven wives over the span of his life.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wait, seriously?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I Wasn't wrong. Stepdad. Stepdad. Stepdad.

[Ad Read Voice]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They just keep having to go, here's your new stepdad. Roll it through.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He keeps taking me to the tracks. When he tells Bomb we're actually going to the mall, he takes me to the tracks to bet on horses. That's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, he keeps asking me to pluck his eyebrows for him. It's cheap and wrong, obviously. He's incredibly, you know, charismatic and charming man because he marries and divorces seven women. So.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, you gotta do it for at least a minute. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

High five. Okay. But he also has a reputation of being a real wild card. There's a story that everyone tells about David wanting to go buy cigarettes. And he drives his car through the front of the store.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What the fuck?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. He's just like, I can't bother to park. I gotta get in there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just go all the way, I guess.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you want those cigarettes?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Make those people clean it up. So he's also known for his rich knowledge of Texas history and his great eye for artifacts. When he's in his 20s, he starts traveling through Texas, through the south, then into Mexico, aggressively collecting Texana and other rare items. And by the mid-60s, he opens a shop in Houston called the Bookman.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Liar. You're lying. It's a beautiful store, filled with an impressive collection, but it actually looks so ostentatious that it intimidates customers. And people don't go there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's, like, too fancy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So the store doesn't make much money, but David's rich. He's a rich nepo baby, so he doesn't care. And he just keeps running that business.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And marrying those women.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep. He's like, well, if no one comes in and buys something today, I'm going to have to get a divorce and remarry someone else.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep. I have to. It does bother him, though, that his fellow dealers, John Jenkins and William Simpson, keep besting him in the deals that they're making, especially Jenkins. They trade with each other often, and because David has the better eye, he actually finds and gets the most valuable items first in his collection. But then Jenkins is such a masterful negotiator, he always seems to successfully lowball David, who is a little bit gullible. So David's all about the, like, this is the real deal and the legit thing, and I paid this much money for it. And then Jenkins is like, waits until no one else makes an offer. And he's like, fine, I'll give you Half. And that keeps happening. So what starts out as a strong working friendship sours and these men become enemies. But even beyond Jenkins, it's really the dealing community at large that David has a problem with. He has a well known habit of overspending. This is what I just said. So it's like he basically out prices himself.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, you can't do that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because he's like, I'll pay any price for that old pair of Willie Nelson boots or whatever. People are like, no, sir. So all the while, David's wild card reputation remains and rumors begin to swirl that he's hawking stolen goods at auction. People suspect he's behind the bulk of the Texana artifacts that are going missing from Texas libraries and museums.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, he's just. He's the one guy just swooping in.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And yoink, he's like, I got a library card, but you know what I'm going to do with it? Not looking at microfiche, motherfuckers. I'm doing something else. Of course, David denies this, but in a kind of wink, wink way to people, he titles one of his. So they guess the sellers make catalogs of the stuff that they have that people can buy. And he titles one of his catalogs. Quote the bookman offers for sale Texas books from a recent robbery. Bro, he's just like, he's funny, he's charming, he's divorced, he's married, he's divorced, he's doing it all.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's got to play it cool though.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, no. Because on the next catalog he puts a mocked up wanted poster with his own face on it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's like, don't do the hard work for the authorities, you know what I mean? Like, make them find you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think he's like so rich, he's just bored where he's just like, come on, everybody. So around the same time he's honing his forgery skills. There's really no one more suited to create fakes than him because he deals with old artifacts for a living. He has all this raw material and the money to buy it and to like cut it up. So he like cuts end papers out of his own antique books to use as the base for his dupes. He perfects his calligraphy. He's so rich, he can perfect his calligraphy. He even hires a trusted lithographer to. Lithographer? Lithographer. To enlarge negatives of genuine documents so he can study every detail. And then he prints versions of him of them himself using ink he makes out of Candle smoke and linseed oil.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's fucking impressive as shit. But do something good, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, take those skills, Richie Rich, and do something good with them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, he says no. But in May, in 1971, on his way to a show around 3000. Oh no, sorry. On his way to show around 3000 documents to a potential buyer in Waco, David gets stopped by a Texas Ranger and a Texas state archivist.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What? Yeah, they have a. They can. Woo woo.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They can pull you over down here. There's a. They've set up a program where archivists drive around with Texas Rangers. Uh huh. Yeah. They've been doing it for years.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm baffled.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Uh huh. So these guys go after him. They accuse him of stealing the documents he has from the state archives. So that's. The archivist is like, hey, I saw you leave my. We saw.

[Ad Read Voice]

Leave the back room.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And he went and got himself a Ranger. And then they pulled him over. When they look through the documents that he's carrying, they find a few that are. That they believe are stolen. And without any proof, they confiscate the documents. So word gets around about this and David's already kind of rocky reputation. Driving into the cigarette store takes him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Notice everybody fucking Jesus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's like, my wife made me do it. As does David's mental health. So he falls into a deep depression and he's already. What Marin quoted. Quoted as. He's already a lover of drugs.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is that what they call it? Yeah, lover. I have a different name for that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A lover of drugs. Is that what you called yourself when you were doing the drugs?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I'm not an addict. I'm a lover of drugs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's more of a passion of mine, you know. So when he's in this very low state, he decides the thing that I've told all of you time and again not to do. He decides to try heroin. What the fuck?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's true.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Never heroin. Whatever else you want, I don't care. Fall into a K hole over and over again. We don't do heroin. We never do heroin. Okay? That's the rule. Thank you. Thanks for the support. Thanks for the heroin support. There's one angry heroin dealer in the back. Like, thanks a lot. What about my business? I'll find my place and then you'll be sorry. So in the summer of 1971, two men are arrested in connection with the library and museum thefts that have been targeting Texana goods. And they waste no time in implicating David as the mastermind. He really does look like a mastermind.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He totally looks like a mastermind.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He has mastermind eyebrows. This pretty much confirms those rumors that he was selling stolen items at auctions. But more than a year passes, he isn't charged with anything. It's weird. That happens to rich people all the time. Anyways, meanwhile, his life is unraveling. He is entirely caught up in this horrible addiction. He is doubling down on his forgeries on the few occasions where he manages to show up for business meetings. He is basically very overt about the fact that he makes fakes. He loses all credibility. His customers abandon him, and he ultimately sells the entirety of his rare Texana goods. Goods to none other than his enemy, John Jenkins. Sorry, enemies John Jenkins and William Simpson. And then he unceremoniously retires. And then the year after, In June of 1972, he gets arrested on drug charges.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's not in custody for long, though, because he is rich, so. Oh, but no, that actually isn't true. It's because he jumps bond and he lives on the lamp for seven fucking years.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Seven years.

[Karen Kilgariff]

For seven years.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Damn.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, Maybe that was a on the lamb picture. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I feel like you could do that back then a lot easier than these days than today. Let's try it. Let's go.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Here we go. Goodbye. Eventually, exhausted by life on the run, he turns himself into police. He just. He hadn't been married in so long that he was like, come on. Gotta get that hit in Texas in 1980. He serves a year in prison. He gets out, and then he cleans his life up. Okay, so that's nice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And, you know, let's hear it for cleaning your fucking life up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, it's a good thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's tough to do in 1980, the same year he turns himself in on those drug charges, that's when Tom Taylor sells his first Texas Declaration of Independence. So that's kind of how that these storylines kind of meld together. We now back to that. So Tom begins. So a few years later, Tom begins his deep investigation into the Texana dupes. And amid his ongoing investigative work, the two men, he and David finally cross paths. Tom sets up a meeting at David's house. And by this point, Tom's unearthed 13 different fake historical Texas documents that have been forged over 50 times since 1970. And they're all traceable to Jenkins, Williams and David. And poor Tom in his Hawaiian shirt's just like, I've got to fight for the justice of documents. Good documents, not these goddamn dirty documents. This is beyond The Texas Declaration of Independence, for example. Tom digs up a document that David had sold as the authentic announcement of the founding of Houston, ostensibly from 1836, but it uses a typeface that did not exist at that time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Come on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sans serif. I don't fucking think so. But according to Tom, when he confronts David about these fakes, David just seems kind of confused. My biggest pet peeve, when you're like, hey, you lied. And the person's like, I'm not sure what you're talking about.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like when you have to. Yeah. They just pretend that they don't even understand the accusation.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's weird. I don't. What do you mean? These words mean you want someone to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Be like, yeah, motherfucker. Like, it's better.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I fucking win it. And then he pulls out the catalog with his wanted face.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I told you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. So he doesn't admit to any wrongdoing. But at this point, Tom doesn't need an admission from him. He can prove these items are fake with irrefutable evidence. And so he goes public with those findings. And then that story gets picked up by a New York Times reporter named Lisa Belkin in 1989. So she writes an article entitled Lone Star Fakes, and it dives into Tom's crusade to weed out forged documents. And it's especially significant because it's the first time C. Dorman David publicly admits to forgery. So in an interview with belkin, the now 51 year old David admits he's directly responsible for. For the two fake declarations that Tom Taylor sold. And he even explains how Tom's one genuine copy served as the template for his later dupes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you think that makes that one copy even more valuable?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Eventually it does.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I'm sorry. Did I just.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no, no. I mean it. But in that way. Well, I'll just read it off this fucking page that I'm on forever. This is the kind of thing where, you know, you really do wish you had your lines memorized. You're like. And then Tom went down to the library. That's never gonna happen. So what he would do is he explains. He photographed the one genuine. He made a negative. He repaired any visible damage on the magnified copy, created a zinc plate from the negative. He printed fakes. And then the way he made that ink that I was saying before, he collected smoke in a paper bag and mix the carbon that attached to the bag with various oils, like the linseed oil. And then the blank paper came from his edges from his old books.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, that's already 10 times smarter than I am. Like, use that for something good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He says, no, no. He says, sorry, I have to go get some cigarettes. I'll be right back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And another wife.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What's your point? Yes. That's how he met his fifth wife. Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I couldn't do one of those steps. Ask me to do one of those steps and then I go take a nap.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'd literally be like, sorry, I was looking at my phone. What do you want me to do again? But in this interview, David keeps going. He also fesses up to Belkin about forging dozens of other documents. But he claims he meant to sell them as known fakes, not pass them off as genuine.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Uh huh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sure, Jan.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I forgot to stamp it with fake.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, the problem with that is that of course David didn't let the buyers know that they were counterfeit. So it wasn't like, oops, get that? Real money. But you have counterfeit in your heart. So two of the biggest customers were Jenkins and Simpsons. At Simpsons. Sorry, not the TV show. And of course, because he did not like them, it's easy to believe that he targeted them for revenge. That's why he kind of pulled them in and made them believe that he had something on his hands.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Revenge. Because like, if he were that smart, I bet he could just forge money.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Why not get that point?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, get your little tin type plate or whatever the thing I was that just like, get something going in your basement.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nope. Wants to fuck people over. Yeah, got it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because I think it's like he loves the antiques and then he wanted to be like the big fish in this world.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And the other two are like, sit down, dummy. And then he was like, I'll get you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Then he's duping them when they think they're duping him and they act confused.

[Georgia Hardstark]

About it and pisses Karen off.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Real housewives. I mean, just keep saying it. We're done with that paragraph. In all the years since Tom Taylor's investigation first exposed these Texana forgeries, not one person has been prosecuted for them. Because there's just enough plausible deniability and not enough proof of criminal intent to bring charges. So the same year that that New York Times article comes out, which is 1989, 49 year old John Jenkins is found shot in the head near Bastrop.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What? Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Someone tried to cheer for Bastrop while others were upset about a terrible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's very confusing to drag alongs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is. This whole thing is confusing. And we Apologize. It always has been. It was officially ruled a suicide, but at the time, Jenkins was being investigated for arson related to an insurance fraud scheme. And he'd also reportedly racked up around a million dollars in gambling debt.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm not even gonna make you ask. But it was a million in 1989.

[Georgia Hardstark]

1.1.72.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't have it. Oh, fuck.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Then yes, then by default.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Then you're right. You finally win.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck yeah. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She did it. She did it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love that our researchers just give up halfway through. Like, I can't keep putting this in the calculator.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If you're not gonna say it, I'm not gonna put it in.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So to this day, some people do believe that John Jenkins was murdered either because of those deaths that he had or because his big personality earned him some enemies. William Simpson, on the other hand, dies in 2001. The details are very fuzzy on his cause of death. He remained very low profile compared to everybody else in this story. And then in 2013, C. Dorman David dies in Houston at the age of 75 after spend. This is kind of an incredible, like, later life story. He spends the latter part of his life running a business that makes. Makes benches shaped like alligators. Wow. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You don't have a picture?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Couldn't clear it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know, I don't even want it. I want to know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I want to see what's here, because, you know what? What's. I'll describe mine, okay? My bench looks like Lyle the crocodile. It's not the same animal. Do not lecture me on that. What's yours look like?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. I don't know. It's not comfortable at all. Whatever. Like, you can't take a nap on it, so it's useless to me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Kind of low to the ground. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Spiky, spiky.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's real spiky. Do, do, do. Why did I take my finger off this fucking page? Meanwhile, Tom Taylor, who is now in his 70s, remains a devoted bookseller and a master printer in Texas. And after his investigation into these fakes, he goes back and he finds the two clients who bought the dupes from him and he reimburses them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are you crying?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not really.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was acting. That was acting, ladies and gentlemen. Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's very honorable.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, he's the good guy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What if the guy. They're like, I didn't want you to tell me it was fake. I was fine living the rest of my life telling all my guests that this is what's real. And I don't want my $11,000 in 1980s money back.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. You know that happened to me, right? When I got my house, when I moved into my house.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

My cousin is my real estate agent, Pete Castro in Los Angeles, if you ever need any help. I did it again. You're doing it. Fuck. I have a new weird, nervous tic where I pinch the end of my nose like that. Very weird. Georgia pointed it out to me the other day and I was like. Like, wow. Talk about not not wanting to know something I'm doing what?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hey, you're just gonna, like. Because also, you're gonna wipe all your makeup off the end of your nose. Only, like, that's really what I wanted to warn you about is it's gonna look fucking weird when you just go, red nose.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm gonna look like that Lady Elaine from Mr. Rogers neighborhood. Yeah, that's my goal in life. I was just going to tell you guys the story. And I may have said this on the podcast, but we do that all the time, so go with it. When I moved in my house, my cousin Pete, they went down, they had to get some official records, and they pulled some records and saw that one of the previous owners of the house was Charles Chaplin. And so when I had my housewarming party, he gave me a framed, like, this certificate that said that was the previous owner. So that was on my wall where I'm like, fucking take a look at this Hollywood legend. Like, you kind of can understand why people get into this shit where it's just like, here's the certificate of authentication. And then this was right before COVID Then we go into Covid. And then somewhere near the end of COVID I finally meet my next door neighbor, and I'm talking to him about, hi, how are you? In the neighborhood? And stuff. And then I go, oh, by the way, did you ever meet, like, the family, the Chaplin family that lived here? And he goes, who? Chuck? No, no, they're not related. They're not related.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Chuck Chaplin.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Chuck Chaplin. I just had to go into my house and just, like, take this little frame thing down and just put it under the thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I think you should leave it still. It's an even better story.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I fucking brought every person that walked through my front door over to that certificate. It was. What is it about that? We were just like, I don't know, me and Charlie Chaplin living in the same house. When will I learn?

[Georgia Hardstark]

So you get it. So you get this story and, like, how it can just be with you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This. I will marry and divorce this story seven times. I love it so much.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I will drive my car through this fucking window. Of this story.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I will smoke a cigarette out of the debris of this story. I love it so much. Tom also publishes a book called Tex Fake. We should all buy it. Which is said to be the most thorough account of this entire forgery saga.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You'd hope so.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This version is not, so please read it if you're interested. It is unclear how many of C. Dorman David's fakes are still out there today. But when they were exposed back in the 90s, it was reported that many institutions didn't take them off their walls and instead put a little label underneath that said something like, this is a facsimile.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which I bet at least one person's grandma in this audience had a fake on accident, didn't know it, right? At least one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Honey, look at the Texas Declaration of Independence. And please don't touch it, honey. Maybe that's what I should have done. I leave Charlie Chaplin up. This is a facsimile.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right, of Charlie Chaplin.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just a little tiny sign that says, karen's a big liar. She can't stop. According to PBS's Antiques Roadshow, David's fake Texas Declarations of Independence are so notorious that they can be worth up to $1,000 today from buyers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Look at that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So that's what I meant before, where it's like they got their own little renown, kind of. What's up with my nose?

[Ad Read Voice]

I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But if you can find yourself a genuine copy of the Texas Declaration of Independence, it could net you as much as $1 million. And that is the story of Tom Taylor's investigation into Texana Fates.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We dig it. Good job.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Way to go.

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[Karen Kilgariff]

You know what? I can see you as Mr. Darcy. You got a little Colin Firth.

[Ad Read Voice]

Okay, that's really sweet. I appreciate that, but are you sure I'm not the dad? I'm not Mr. Bennett here. Listen to Irsay, the Audible and iHeart Audio Book Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do we have home hometown time?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think it's time to do a hometown.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's Vince Averill, everyone. Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We gotta give it up for this crowd tonight. Yeah, because there was in fact, a my favorite murder themed cocktail.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh. And it was tequila based.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I didn't get any reports of any vomit in the house today. Good job, you guys. That's classy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You didn't.

[Ad Read Voice]

Sort of. Not the case.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, it does lead to vomit, but Austin can drink. This is our. This is our route. So I'm gonna be right here affirming the lucidity of whoever you choose. Thanks, Vince.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, and we have a present.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

These were pitched to us by Merch and we love them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nicole and Merch. Did you see her at the merch table?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, it's her first time in Texas. Did you know that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Are you serious? Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Give her a big old Texas Hello. When you see her, we have stress hot dogs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Stress hot dogs. They really work.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, yeah. Let's say my favorite murder on them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Okay, so we talk really quickly, and we know you know this, but we actually forgot the first couple shows we did. So we'll just run it down where right now, George is going to randomly pick someone from the audience to tell their hometown story. And a hometown story, drag along is basically either a crime that happened in your town that got you into true crime, or that you just would like to tell everybody that everybody might like to know. There's a couple rules. One of them is it should be a Texas story, hopefully an Austin story. Whatever you can do. But please don't do what poor, poor Katie did the other night and say, I'm from Broward, Florida. And yet the entire fucking place booed her. And she walked off stage.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was very painful first night back.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Very hilarious.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She was a great sport. We got to talk to her about it later because I thought she thought she was just supposed to come up and proclaim her hometown and leave, which I loved. But she was like, no, I had a story. I just got nervous and left. And we're like, oh, no, poor baby. At least now we talk about you. Okay, so try to make it. You should be local. That's what people like. Don't be so drunk that you can't tell your own story. Don't read off paper. Nobody wants that. It just should be casual and fun.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Beginning, middle, end.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell it like a good story. You know how to tell a good story. Texas.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You guys are theater people.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So does anybody have a hometown?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Does anyone have a hometown we think would be good? Do you know her? Are you just pointing at her? You know her. Okay, come on up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you know her?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because a lot of times people will point at something. Like, the person next to them raises their hand. What's wrong there? Right in the middle of the well.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I just was like, oh, this is very unsafe in terms of fire. You have to go all the way down like that. I don't like that. I'll talk to the theater later. She had to slide all the way down. Thanks, Vince.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hi, Laura.

[Audience Member Laura]

My name is Laura.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Laura.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hi. This is Laura.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hi. Where are you from?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Laura?

[Audience Member Laura]

I have waited nine years to tell you that I helped the Texas Rangers take down the polygamous sex cult at the YFZ Ranch in El Dorado, Texas.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Holy shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Holy shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then she walks off stage. The end.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What do you do For a living?

[Audience Member Laura]

Oh, I'm in publishing. Yeah, just random.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Audience Member Laura]

Okay. So I, like, actually practice just in case I'm a little nervous about it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, okay, good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We won't interrupt you anymore. Well, maybe a couple times, but.

[Audience Member Laura]

So I grew up profoundly Mormon, but I got better. Thank you. My great, great, great grandfather was one of the first converts and was called polygamy when he came to Salt Lake City. And a lot of my family is still polygamists, so I know these people. You did a story, episode 340. You did Irva LeBaron.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, yeah.

[Audience Member Laura]

I used to work with his daughter. She escaped, and she grew up chained around the neck in a goat. They're not good people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Audience Member Laura]

So when I was in my 20s, I was living in Utah. I come back to Texas. I promise I'm here. But I was married, and my husband got a job working with Meryl Jessup, who is Warren Jeff's right hand man. And we got divorced shortly after. I divorced for very good reasons.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Good job, Good job.

[Audience Member Laura]

Thank you, thank you, thank you. And he skedaddled. And I couldn't get child support, so I came back to Texas. I'm doing it. I learned how to. This is in the 90s, so there's no, like, real proper Internet, But I find a chat room that all of those guys were talking about stuff, and I was hoping to find my ex. And I just started collecting all of the data, but I didn't know what to do with it. So I'm just. Just hanging onto it. Then in the early 2000s, a show called Big Love starts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah.

[Audience Member Laura]

And I started to write reviews of it on LiveJournal.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'll take that one.

[Audience Member Laura]

I'll take some more on LiveJournal, where I'm saying, this is who this is really about.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Audience Member Laura]

And these are the real people, and this is the real story. And I had this person that was constantly, like, asking me questions. It turns out that that was a person who worked for the Del Rio Texas Rangers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I said, hey, what's their username? Like xx?

[Audience Member Laura]

Well, I'll tell you at the vip, but long story short, I said, hey, do you want this information? They said, absolutely, we do. Meanwhile, one of the things that I had tracked and kept contact of, somebody had asked on a chat board, does anybody have a blueprint for a potato burning shed that gets hot enough to destroy DNA evidence?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, on a chat room.

[Audience Member Laura]

This is the 90s. People were. They didn't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then it said, LOL. Yeah, right.

[Audience Member Laura]

So that Was code potato. Was code. So they found. They ended up finding things, but that's the next story. Then they messaged and how many stories.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You'Re telling, it's the same thing.

[Audience Member Laura]

It's the same thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Got it.

[Audience Member Laura]

So they. I got another message from the person at the Texas Rangers when they were going in. They had tanks that were lined up outside of this place in El Dorado, which is just by Midland. It's south of new story. And asked me if I'd ever been inside the temple and do I know the floor plan? And I said, no, I didn't. But I do know that Mormon temples always have a special room at the very top on the eastmost side called the celestial room. But most importantly, there's gonna be an altar. So you know that that's the room. And there is a hidden panel on a wall because there's somebody that sits in it and records everything. Because Mormons tracking record all of the data.

[Ad Read Voice]

Whoa.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can I ask a question?

[Audience Member Laura]

Yes, you can.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Was this a phone call or like this was still typing. We're like live DMing live, live journaling. And is your heart racing? Are you just like, dry mouth and going, yeah.

[Audience Member Laura]

I'm like, finally, all of this geekery of recording shit is working.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm so excited.

[Audience Member Laura]

So they ended up. They didn't find the altar. There was a bed. Because they're really bad people. And they did find the panel. And there was a guy in there trying to destroy the evidence off the computers. The particular ranger, his nickname was Marathon Man. Yes. And he was also the canine guy. So he was just like, go for it and drop the leash. So they got that guy. So multiple people are life sentence. Multiple life sentences. These guys. I will say, a month after all of this happened, I got an email from that dispatch with a list of all known aliases. Every time a license had been run, the license plate had gone through. Anything for my ex, I got my child support.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Audience Member Laura]

With interest.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I. Chills. Incredible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And for all that work, you get a hot dog.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. Amazing. Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Laura, you. Let's say, give.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Me. Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sure. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or whatever.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Be careful.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can we get together as a group and make sure she does save Laura? Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Perfection. Amazing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That was it. That was so good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was it. They shut it down. There's nothing else to do after this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Except eat barbecue.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And marry seven women. Oh, wait, no. She says, no, don't do that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no, don't do that. The lesson we learned is don't do that. Thank you. We love you. Thank you so much. Austin. This has been unbelievable.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We can't believe we're back on the road and you guys have been so supportive and incredible and fun and we really appreciate it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you so much for being with us for all these crazy fucking years with this stupid podcast. We love you so much. Much. Stay sexy and thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Elvis. Do you want a cookie?

[Karen Kilgariff]

This has been an Exactly Right production.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Our senior producers are Alejandra Keck and Molly Smith.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This episode was mixed with by Liana Squillace.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our researchers are Maren McGlashan and Ali Elkin.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Email your hometowns to my favorite murdermail.com.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Follow the show on Instagram at My.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Favorite murder Listen to my favorite murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And now you can watch us on exactly right's YouTube page while you're there. Please like and subscribe. Goodbye.

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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