509 - Let Me Corrupt You

Summary

Podcast Summary: My Favorite Murder – Episode 509: "Let Me Corrupt You"

Podcast: My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Episode Title: 509 - Let Me Corrupt You
Date: December 4, 2025
Hosts: Karen Kilgariff & Georgia Hardstark
Producer: Exactly Right and iHeartPodcasts

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Episode Overview

In this lively and poignant episode, Karen and Georgia return after Thanksgiving for a catch-up full of tour reflections, holiday recovery, and humorous banter about self-care, vices, and family traditions. The hosts read touching listener emails and discuss how My Favorite Murder fosters connection across generations. The heart of the episode features deep dives into two compelling stories: Karen presents the mysterious death of Phoebe Hansijk in Melbourne—a case riddled with investigative failures and lingering questions. Georgia shares the maritime tragedy of the SS Edmund Fitzgerald, its stormy sinking on Lake Superior, the haunting legacy it left, and the music that keeps the memory alive.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Post-Holiday Vibes & Tour Recovery

• Karen and Georgia catch up after tour and Thanksgiving, humorously comparing the anti-climactic return to normal life with "soldiers going to Hawaii mid-war" (01:55).
• Georgia describes her nightmarish 12-hour holiday drive from San Francisco to LA (normally 6 hours), reflecting on travel woes (03:03).
• Karen confesses she stayed home, enjoyed restorative downtime, and even participated in a therapeutic ketamine session--leading to jokes about "doing drugs before the show" (03:44).
• Lighthearted back-and-forth about nicotine pouches leads to the episode's titular line:
  Karen: "Let me corrupt you." (04:48)
• The hosts riff on the shared rebellion of small vices, the need for "a little oblivion," and the ritual of games and agreed-upon fun during the holidays (05:32).

2. Community & Listener Connections

• Reading heartwarming listener emails, the hosts are moved by messages from diverse fans, including a 47-year-old father who uses "MFM protocols" to communicate with his daughters.
  Listener Email: "You both have become the west coast sisters I never knew I needed." (09:17)
• Another listener cleverly likens MFM to “MAS*H—‘a comedy about war’,” offering a way to explain true crime comedy to skeptics (09:50).
• Karen and Georgia thank their engaged community and call for more fan strategies on “how do you tell your friends to listen to this podcast?” (10:21).

3. True Crime Story One — The Mysterious Death of Phoebe Hansijk

Presented by Karen Kilgariff (19:44–52:40)

Case Overview

• The case of Phoebe Hansijk: a 24-year-old woman found dead in her Melbourne apartment building’s trash compactor room in 2010.
• Police quickly ruled it a suicide—Phoebe allegedly entered a narrow garbage chute feet-first from the 12th floor. But Karen details why this ruling is deeply suspect.

Key Points & Evidence

• Suspicious Investigation:

  • Police made early assumptions of suicide, failing to check for signs of life, collect key evidence, or secure the scene(s).
  • CCTV footage was not immediately secured and was eventually lost; blood samples and broken glass were ignored; the boyfriend’s influential judge parents may have complicated the case (42:21).
  • The boyfriend gave inconsistent statements about Phoebe's phone and discarded her SIM card.
  • Family and friends raise doubts: Phoebe was creative, physically fit but claustrophobic, and her BAC was high but not conclusive for suicide.
  • No fingerprints found around the chute, jeans found pulled down, broken glass and blood in the apartment suggest a struggle.

• Notable Quotes:

  • Karen: "Let me corrupt you." (04:48)
  • Karen (on investigation): "There are many, many missed opportunities at the beginning... no one checks her body for signs of life." (41:07)
  • Georgia: "Trying to assemble some sort of idea of what was going on that night... two judges are in the apartment basically dictating what is and isn't going to happen." (43:52)

• Legal Aftermath:

  • A coroner’s inquest (delayed 4 years) ultimately ruled "death by misadventure" despite family objections and expert testimony.
  • The case led to changes in Victoria’s coronial court system, making legal appeals more accessible for families (51:08).

• Emotional Impact:

  • Both hosts express deep empathy for Phoebe, her struggles, and the lack of resolution.
  • Karen: "She deserved better than that, than what she got." (52:39)
  • Urge to listen to the podcast “Phoebe’s Fall” for more details.

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4. True Crime Story Two — The Sinking of the SS Edmund Fitzgerald

Presented by Georgia Hardstark (56:54–85:36)

Case Overview

• The 1975 disaster of the SS Edmund Fitzgerald, a massive Great Lakes ore freighter lost during a ferocious November storm on Lake Superior.
• The ship vanished with 29 men aboard near the end of its run, inspiring Gordon Lightfoot’s famous ballad.

Key Points & Evidence

• Ship & Storm Details:

  • The Fitzgerald, helmed by Captain Ernest McSorley (on his last pre-retirement run), faced hurricane-force winds, 35-foot rogue waves, and blinding snow.
  • Despite radar/safety backup from the Anderson (another freighter), the Fitzgerald’s last message at 7:10 pm:
    McSorley: “We are holding our own.” (72:20)
  • Five minutes later, vanished from radar without a mayday.

• Aftermath & Legacy:

  • Rapid and total sinking—no survivors, no recovered bodies, only wreckage and a split hull discovered 530 feet down.
  • Debate about the cause: unsecured hatch covers (implying crew error) vs. hull damage from shoal or rogue wave. Both remain unresolved.
  • The tragedy was immortalized in Gordon Lightfoot’s "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald," a song that topped charts again on the 50th anniversary in November 2025 (85:36).

• Notable Quotes & Moments:

  • Georgia: "If you want to absolutely destroy a karaoke night, you sign up for that song [Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald]." (85:42)
  • Reading of a memorial speech:
    “As the bell is in their hearts, so they are in the bell. And in the bell’s tone are the voices of the men. And we shall listen.” (83:48)

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• Georgia: “I have shit all over my hands.” (01:50) — setting their signature irreverent tone.
• Karen (reflecting on coping mechanisms): “I win by losing, where I get back at something I’m mad at by drinking. And it’s not hurting the thing I’m mad at—it’s fucking up the thing I am.” (05:43)
• On Community: "You've helped us so much." (86:34) — expressing gratitude to their supportive listeners.

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Bantery Catch-Up & Vices: 01:44–07:41
• Listener Emails & Community Segment: 08:13–12:40
• Story 1: The Death of Phoebe Hansijk (Karen): 19:44–52:40
• Story 2: Sinking of SS Edmund Fitzgerald (Georgia): 56:54–85:36
• Notable Quotes on Both Cases:
  • Karen: "It doesn't happen twice. No, it doesn't happen twice. But it does." (51:56) (referencing possible patterns in suspicious deaths)

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Tone & Style

As always, Karen and Georgia mix genuine horror and deep empathy with relatable humor, sharp asides, and a spirit of inquiry. The episode blends personal vulnerability (about mental health, addiction, loss) with sharp true-crime investigation. The hosts maintain their conversational, supportive, sometimes irreverent style while bringing thoughtful attention—and sometimes righteous anger—to overlooked victims and flawed systems.

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Closing

The episode wraps with the hosts encouraging listeners to care for themselves, lean on community, and, in classic MFM style:
"Stay sexy and don’t get murdered." (86:50)

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Listen/Read Further

• Phoebe’s Fall (recommended for deeper dive into Phoebe Hansijk’s case)
• Discovery Channel’s "Shipwreck: The Mystery of the Edmund Fitzgerald" (Georgia’s main source)
• Gordon Lightfoot’s "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" (especially for the anniversary and cultural context)

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For true crime fans, this episode offers a blend of tragedy, unresolved questions, and communal support, all told with the wit and candor that make MFM beloved.

Transcript

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

The big man up north.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

See mintmobile.com.

My.

Hello and welcome to my favorite murder. That's Georgia Hardstart.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's Karen Kilgariff.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I have shit all over my hands.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's having a night. She's having a day, a night, a year.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This feels and it's very stolen valor for me to make this comparison. But coming back from a Thanksgiving break to wait to go to on Christmas break very much feels like when I first heard that they used to make soldiers in Vietnam go for two weeks to like meet their wives in Hawaii and then go back to war where I'm like, wait, that's a horrible thing to do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I hear you. We have two more weeks until we are on Christmas break.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And this is hard to go back. It's like we went on tour. That was insane. I still can't get over the fact that it's over. Like I still can't believe that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then it's also like, hard to go away from, like, people cheering from you for you forever. And then also now it's like, welcome back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

For two weeks, no one was excited to see me when I went home for Thanksgiving.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No one cheered in the.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Kept looking at people going, you do realize that I just spent three months experiencing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm sorry, do you know who I think I am?

[Georgia Hardstark]

You better get on board with this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How are you?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm good. Cause we've been on tour. I wanted to bring the dogs home for Thanksgiving, so I drove up north. As if I don't count in the big Thanksgiving travel nightmare.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's different for you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's like different me. I've been doing this for so long, I know how to do it or something. The way home, it took me 12 hours to get from San Francisco to Los Angeles.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Everyone needs to know it's a six hour drive usually.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So it's as if I drove home to Los Angeles and then back to San Francisco.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Essentially that feeling when you get to the grapevine and you're like, I'm almost there. But you're fucking not almost there. Because that's when the worst of the traffic starts.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because the 99 and then this thing with the trucks comes and it is like a big nightmare, big Y of traffic. And then you sit there for three more hours.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Jesus. I'm sorry to deal with that. Listen, I stayed home. It was.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You were fine. Excellent. Were you fully rested right now?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't want to tell you, I don't want to say. I don't want to make you feel bad, but yes, I'm pretty fucking rest. I did a nice ketamine session over the weekend.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hey, what does that mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Therapeutic ketamine.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You and some horses?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I went to the stables and did ketamine. And yeah, I'm rested. I'm very rested and like clear minded. And I gave you drugs just now though, too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, George and I are doing drugs before the show. It's a. It's a thing we're going to try out. See, it worked for Fleetwood Mac and we think it's going to work for us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's just nicotine pouches. That is my, like, new thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I discovered it that Georgia was doing nicotine pouches, not patches, while we were on tour.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm doing both, but pouches.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, you're doing it all careful.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But then right before we started, I was like, I drove for 12 hours. Then Georgia was like, do you want to try one in nicotine pouch?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I felt like Such a. I have definitely been. When I was younger, the girl who gave someone their first cigarette.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I was the. Don't hang out with her. She's a bad influence person entirely. So I totally had flashbacks to that with you just now, and it felt kind of good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. It's a great feeling.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's the full rebel. It's like day drinking. We're, like, not supposed to do it. Do it, do it, do it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let me corrupt you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's fun for everyone.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Come over to our side.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. We shouldn't get. We shouldn't drink, right? It's. Stay tight. We shouldn't have a drink, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you want to have a. We should get a bottle.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are you. And also, it's like. Are you super tired? This might work. I mean, I don't know, but it's something. Ye. I think I do. There's like a. I feel like things got a little more in focus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Does that make sense?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It does. Yeah. I did it so hard the other day that I was such. In such a good mood that I called my mom and had a great conversation with her, which only happens when I have at least one drink and we have a great conversation about cats and about, you know, nice things.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Flowers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. But this time you were just like, oh, what's up, Mom?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I love you. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, look, as my therapist said and I've said a million times on the show, everybody needs a little oblivion.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And even if it's nicotine, oblivion in a pouch, like you're an old cowboy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. I love the. I do too much oblivion. I do what my therapist calls. I win by losing, where I was like, I get back at something I'm mad at by drinking.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it's not hurting the thing I'm mad at.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's fucking up the thing I am.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which is you, which is me. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Always.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know, but it's like, then they shouldn't have invented it, and they shouldn't have made it so effective.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Truly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, I have to say, on par with drinking, though, what we did a lot this holiday, I guess week, weekend was we played a lot of games, so it was like Thanksgiving night.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You guys love that shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We love games. The one that I really love is the three. It's basically three rounds of charades where you get to say full sentences. The first round, one word. The second round, charades. The last round.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But you have to remember the clues people gave on the other teams because it goes back in the same bowl. It's called fishbowl.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So you can just point at that person and be like, what they did.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Exactly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that's fun.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like that. And then like bowling or whatever. And then people know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it's very fun. And it's fun because people think they're not gonna be good at it. And they're great at it. Cause they just wanna win. And it's hilarious.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We just played Jenga. That's what my parents did.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, that's good. Were you on a cruise?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is that a cruise game?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm thinking of those. Have you seen those giant Jenga Jenga things? Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hilarious.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, that's. You know what it is. Whether it's drinking nicotine pouches or just, like, agreed upon fun.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I want that cruise in the afternoon feel.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I've never been on a cruise and I want that too. I don't even know really what you mean, but I bet, I guess. Post nap.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yep.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Pre dinner.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yep.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, cocktail hour.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Everyone's agreed that no one's gonna talk about work. No one's gonna be worried. We're all just gonna be weird versions of ourselves and have fun.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No wifi.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No WI fi. You don't need it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Everyone's in their, like, socks and stuff. No one's in their shoes. Like, I get really, like, uptight and like. Are you about to leave? Where are you going? Why do you have your shoes on?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Take those shoes. Yes, you have to take your shoes off. And somebody has to spill red wine on the carpet so that you can salt up a red wine stain.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I've got it. A mommy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's what Sophie did it to Anna. And it was this big, huge thing. And we couldn't stop laughing. Cause my Aunt Jean, who was there, and my mom, every single time we got together, someone would spill red wine on the carpet. So it was like just the perfect.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's good luck.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Speaking of good luck, this is my favorite part. No, we don't do that anymore. That's a live show thing. Aww.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Isn't that sad?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's over.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We have some responses from you guys. We sent out our newsletter asking you what you're thankful for.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thanksgiving in general. If you have anything to tell us about stuff that went down or. Yes, what you're thankful for. Anything.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, sweet one. Okay, here's mine. This one is called thank you for more than just the tough times. Dear Karen, Georgia and the MFM team. I wanted to take a moment to thank you for getting me through not only the tough Times, but also for teaching me how to embrace the good ones. I may not be your typical fan or listener. I'm a 47 year old Mexican father of two daughters, 21 and 24, living up here in Edmonds, Washington. But I've been with you since day one. What a brother from another mother, as they say. Yes, your insight and humor gave me the tools to better communicate with my daughter.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I passed along the MFM protocols. Encourage them to stand up for what they believe in and remind them that caring for their four legged friends is just as beneficial to their own well being. Yes, those lessons have meant more to me than you know. Although I have two sisters of my own, you both have become the west coast sisters I never knew I needed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This guy's trying to make me cry and I'm not gonna do it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It says a bunch of really sweet things and then it says, thank you for being exactly who you are and for letting me be part of this community with warmth and love. Ssdgm.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Angel, this is such a delight to know that you are here with us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sweet baby Angel's here with us.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sweet baby Angel. We should send him a shirt.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, this goes very much along with that email and it just says, hello, ladies and felicitous compliments of the holiday season to you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's the Monopoly Man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's an English major. Oh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So I thought of something that might help you with folks who frown upon the idea of a true crime comedy podcast. Tell them it's just like how the TV show MASH is a comedy about war. Ugh. How genius is that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Brilliant. Like a dark comedy, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

This ought to help soothe people's feelings. Well, at least people over 40 years old.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Seriously.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then it says, saw you in Chicago. You were great, Jenny. Aww. Isn't that nice?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's so nice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love that. It's like, if you're listening to this podcast and you think of things like that, if you have tips or tricks for us, hopefully, you know, what do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You tell your friends when you're like, you should listen to this podcast? It's. I know it sounds, but it's like, what is that? Right? We wanna know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And angel, if you have some suggestions, you've been here since day one. Get in here, get back in here, back in here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Angel reporting from Angel.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm so grateful for that tip from Jenny and for angel writing in.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thanks, guys.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's exciting.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hey, we have a podcast network. It's called Exactly Right Media Here are some highlights.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, this week over on the Knife, Hannah and Patia talked to Ashley and Crystal, who are the daughters of Donna Nelson who was arrested in Tokyo of 2023 on international drug smuggling charges. They immediately suspected the man Donna had been dating online to be responsible for this. And so they share their family's heartbreaking story and their fight for justice and the warning signs behind elder drug mule scams. Wow, I'd never even heard of that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That is something else. Okay. And then over on that's Messed Up, Kara and Lisa break down the SVU episode they'd already disappeared with actor Blake DeLong. Then they dive into the shocking real life case of Anat Moskvin and his 29 mummified human dolls.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Then on Ghosted, Roz reunites with comedian. Oh, just truly one of my very favorites these days, Vinnie Thomas. He's the one. I'm sure I told you. He has an amazing TikTok. And he does that bit where he goes, it's his impression of a pigeon at pride parade and he's throw out some bread. It's the funniest. I love him. So keys on Ghosted with Roz for a freaky deaky cosmic kiki, they call it. And they get into psychic swindlers, aliens is silicon based life, and SN Snooki's soon to debut paranormal ghost hunting show.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I kind of love like fits for her somehow, like perfectly. Even though it makes no sense. It's not connected at all. But it's like, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, please. I also think that Snooki's personality, I think she was wronged in the time where they got popular.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it was so easy to dump on Snooki.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I think she deserves to do whatever the fuck she wants. Cause people want to watch and listen to her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's a star.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She is a star.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. And then tomorrow we'll be feature set about Snooki. Justice for Snooki.

[Georgia Hardstark]

God damn it, why are you oppressing Snooki?

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then tomorrow we'll be featuring episode one of Brief Recess, our newest podcast here on the MFM channel. This episode features Congressman Robert Garcia, the ranking member and top Democrat on the House Oversight committee. Then be sure to go over to the Brief Recess feed and check out their first four episodes. Please, please, please binge the newest podcast on the iHeart app or wherever you get your podcast and rate review, subscribe.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Also, Brief recess is on YouTube. They're just as much a video podcast as they are an audio one. So go watch them at YouTube.comief. recess. Also, attention, holiday shoppers. The Exactly Right store has been fully stocked with gorgeous trinkets and treasures for you and your loved ones. We have added. Do you want to go through this list together?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sure. Ooh, I own this one already. We have the SSDGM necklace, the Stay sexy and Don't Get Murdered pendant necklace. And it's so beautiful.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Beautiful.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I have the gold one and I wear it all the time. It's fucking beautiful. It's, like, not shitty.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's not shitty. And also, what a cute little bag. It says my favorite murder established 2016 on the front.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Keep your nicotine pouches in it. It's worth it just for that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let me see if I can pouch this up right now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then what else do we have?

[Georgia Hardstark]

We have a Mothman plushie keychain to hang your keys up here, but then you got a mothman down here. Cute, cute. Details on this little catnip.

[Karen Kilgariff]

One of these. These, Nicole.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, that's a great idea.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. And then our Red Flag beanie. You have that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The cutest.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That Red flag.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then our cozy MFM script Zip up hoodie. So it's just my favorite murder in script. It's pretty simple and, like, straightforward. I love that. And then it says Murderino on the sleeve.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, do you want to come out as a Murderino?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's pretty fucking cool.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If you're ready.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like, also, like, really good material. Vince is always, like, really obsessed with good material on merch, and he was. This would pass his test.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know. Nicole really does not slouch. She gets good ones.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She does.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's. She cares.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So go to the exactlyrightstore.com to shop now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And there's more good news. We have extended this sale, so now it's going to December 7th. So you can get it all.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You gotta use code ERM2025 at checkout for 20% off sitewide. That's exactlyrightstore.com support your local podcast.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right, so before we get started real quick, we want to do our December donation announcement. You guys know every December, every week, every episode, we'd like to donate to a great cause. This month is no different.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, that's right. And this is actually one of my personal favorites. I talked about this book. Yeah, Father Greg's book. So we're going to kick off December donation drive with $10,000 being donated to Homeboy Industries. And that's this nonprofit here in LA dedicated to providing hope training and support to formerly gang involved in previously incarcerated people, allowing them to redirect their lives and become contributing members of our community.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They offer a wide variety of ranging from tattoo removal to anger management and parenting classes. So if you'd like to join us in giving to this very important cause, go to their [e-mail] they actually have.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A really great cafe and they are making tiktoks where it's like a bunch of guys that look like tough guys that go up and they order black coffee. But it's like the little. We talked about that, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And they're actually like getting their like soy latte with vanilla pumpkin spice lattes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then they're all like going over and sipping them all cute. It's the funniest. Yeah, so cute. Also, if you're not in a place to give money right now, they're looking for volunteers. So there's volunteer opportunities around tutoring. They need experienced teachers and they would also like some volunteers that are mental health professionals.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ooh, I love that. So let's find ways to look out for each other in the coming year. Yay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yay. The way Homeboy Industries does.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so perfect that it makes you think, do they really need this or should this stay with me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

Exactly. It's like it's cashmere without the fuss. It's like a really well made sweater, but then it's like the coziness of cashmere.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

All right, I'm first. Whoo hoo hoo hoo. I have been, I guess the word isn't looking forward to telling you this story. Right. Because it's mash. It's a comedy about Vietnam.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's. Yeah, there's real war in these.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. So it's not looking forward to, but the story is fascinating and we're going to Australia for this one. So this is a story of the mysterious death of a young woman in Australia about 15 years ago. It's a troubling case that doesn't have a clear answer. It's not a cold case necessarily, but the most troubling part is probably how the initial investigation was handled. This is the story of the mysterious death of Phoebe Hanshik. And I actually heard about this from a 2016 six part podcast series called Phoebe's Fall. And it was an investigation by Michael Bachelard and Richard Baker, who are both reporters for the Melbourne newspaper the Age. It's one of those classic deep dive. They interview the whole family and friends and just really get into this case and ask great questions that never were asked by the police. So it's a really good podcast. Highly recommend it. And it's always stuck with me because the girl Phoebe reminds me of me or us or murderinos or people we would know. She just seems very. Oh, let's just get into it. Okay. On Thursday, December 2, 2010 at about 7pm, the concierge at a luxury high rise apartment complex in Melbourne called the Balencia goes to the refuse room on the ground floor where all the trash from the high rise's trash chute goes. So each floor has a trash chute, trash goes to this room. She is looking for a broom to sweep something up, but when she tries to get into the referee. Refuse.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Refuse.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, the door is stuck. When she gets the door open, she sees blood and a body and she panics. She first calls her boss, then the police, and it's quickly determined that this is a young building resident named Phoebe Hanschuk. Police very quickly come up with an explanation that Phoebe had taken her own life. And because of this, they make many mistakes over the course of their very short investigation and it will leave many questions unanswered. The first thing they do is they don't check for a pulse, they don't check for signs of life. And it's homicide detectives. So like, like you'd Think that they know to establish that immediately. Right. Like that's the first thing you do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is it assumed that if they're there, it's because it already has been established.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't think it's supposed to be okay. Cause the whole thing is like, signs of life is like important and so they don't even check their polls. I mean. Yeah. So that's what's going on. But let's talk about Phoebe. Phoebe had been 24 and she had lived with her boyfriend, who's 45. They live in that luxury apartment on the 12th floor of this building. The apartment belongs to Phoebe's boyfriend and they've been together for about a year and a half. And Phoebe had moved in fairly shortly after meeting him. We do know that their relationship was somewhat rocky and Phoebe had talked about ending it on multiple occasions and maybe even tried to end it and just kept going back to him. This man is. I'm just gonna call him Anthony. That's his name. But he had been cleared of any involvement in or knowledge of her death by the coroner. So I'm not gonna say his last name, but you can find it anywhere. The journalists from the age take pains to say that they are with that finding that he's not involved. But because his name comes up a lot in connection with this case and at the same time, he's not been charged with any crime. I'm not gonna use his last name, but in any case, his name's Anthony and he's kind of a mover and shaker in Melbourne as he's a very successful producer of major events. So he kind of is like in the know, he goes to like all the cool parties. He throws all the cool parties. You know, he's got money, that kind of thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

His parents are both judges. His father is a retired Victoria Supreme Court and his mother is a district judge. So, you know, well off and like, also well respected in the community.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

His sister is sort of a socialite and is known to be a minor cocaine dealer. Although she won't be convicted of this for several more years. And when that does happen, when she does get convicted of it and found as selling cocaine, she gets a very light sentence because of her parents connections.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, so to have two parents as judges.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Wow. Like, good luck going through the system.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. You are the system.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So meanwhile, Phoebe.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Come on. Still got it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Meanwhile, let's talk about Phoebe. She's born on May 9, 1986, and grew up in a lovely part of Melbourne with Her parents and two brothers. Seems like she had a really lovely childhood. And she's known for being creative and beautiful and, like, stops people in their tracks. But she also seems like she's kind of. She seems like she'd be a murderee now. She has. She seems very artistic. She seems like the cool girl in high school who, like, always took photos and was in, like, art classes and photography classes. And, you know, she had a pierced lip and, like, short, spiky hair. She was just cool.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She was a cool girl.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, like someone you'd want to be friends with.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Just really quick on that. I just saw a TikTok that was all about. Having hobbies is not just, like, a pastime or a distraction. Like, hobbies, especially in women. Women teaches you how to care about the things, like, care about yourself and invest in yourself and then develop. So it's like you start it a hobby, and you're like, say, playing the guitar. And if you just keep doing it, eventually you'll get good and then you can actually do something with it. And that idea where it's just like that. I love the idea of, like, girls in high school that are like, I want to be a photographer. I'm into photography. And it's like, you don't have to do that forever.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just, like, chase that kind of instinct.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And know all about those, like, temporary hobbies and just, like, what's new? What's next?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love it. Try it out. See how you feel.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And so she has a rebellious streak. Totally reminds me of me in the 90s as a precocious teenager. She starts going out to clubs with fake IDs when she's 13, starts drinking and doing drugs. It's exactly what I did. At 16. Phoebe gets her first job at McDonald's. And this is just kind of like a way to show you how she was and what she was like. I love the story. She hates the dog. She quits after her second day. But when you quit your job at McDonald's, you have to return your uniform. And Phoebe had come to work wearing it, so she decided she's had enough. She quits. She goes into the back room, strips off the uniform, and then runs home in her underwear so she doesn't have to pay them for the uniform. Like, that's the kind of, like, I want that girl to be my friend.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. That's a cool girl for sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. She seems like someone you'd be, like, following on Instagram now, who's, like, an influencer, who does really fun, cool Stuff. And Phoebe's close with her family, but her parents get divorced when she's in her teens and she is estranged from her father for a while. But they ultimately repair their relationship. And she's really close with her grandmother, a woman named Phyllis. And Phoebe trusts her completely. She really tells her grandma anything, including about her teenage exploits and experimentation with drugs. Which my grandma would have had a fucking heart attack if I had told her what I was doing. But this grandma's cool and totally nonjudgmental. But she's also honest when she's worried about what Phoebe is telling her. Cause the grandma had done her fair amount of experimenting herself. Phyllis is upfront with Phoebe about her own experiences with drugs, including lsd, saying how she didn't tolerate psychedelics well. So be very careful. It's like, not for everyone. And Phoebe respects her grandmother, but ultimately pays a normal amount of teenage attention to this advice, which is none.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thanks so much. Thanks for your input.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And so she definitely struggles to some extent with mental health and with drug and alcohol use, as a lot of us do. It sort of blurrily fits into what is considered the expectations for young people. Her family isn't too fazed by her relationship with much older men, which she's always had, including a relationship with a teacher when she was in high school. He was 30 and she was 16. But it seems like the mother and the grandmother had both always had relationships with older men and didn't see it as problematic. And he, like, lived with them for a while. And it's so hard to say nowadays, like, you can't date your students. There's a fucking power to your children.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're not supposed to. Yes, no, that's wrong.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But they don't see it as problematic. And. Yeah. So all this is to say there's a lot going on in Phoebe's life, much of it typical for someone who's 24. But people can't seem to agree if Phoebe's alcohol and drug use and relationships have crossed over into a territory that's more worrying. In the week leading up to her death, Phoebe was in close contact with her psychologist and did seem to be in some amount of distress about her relationship with her boyfriend. And as well as her drinking, which she thought was getting out of control. And there might have been some drug use as well, because, you know, know, he was in the nightlife scene.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And his sister, as we now know, was selling cocaine.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Which all is to say, if you already have mental health issues, adding those things are very detrimental.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And Proximity with stuff like that, it's like, if you can get away from it, that's why people are like, then I moved to the country, or whatever. Exactly. Because if you're right in it and that's where all your friends are and that's what they're doing, and you're trying.

[Karen Kilgariff]

To keep up with this older crowd, like. And she wasn't the type of person who was like, she didn't have a ton of money, but this crowd that he ran in and, you know, they threw parties for, like, famous people and they had all this money and, you know, designer things. And so she was kind of 24 and trying to keep up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. That's a world we've all been told we're supposed to want to be in, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So her therapist says that during that week, Phoebe was talking about taking her own life, but it hadn't risen to the level that she thought she should send a crisis assessment team to the apartment. Like, she had mentioned it before, but not with any concrete plans, which I think is the thing that they always look for. And she later says that she regrets not sending someone to help her. All that said, while people close to Phoebe agree that she was experiencing mental health struggles, perhaps even more severe ones, no one can understand how she could have possibly taken her own life. And this is how she died, by stepping feet first into the garbage chute of the 12th floor. So problematic. And that's why she was found down in the trash room.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I get it. Yeah. So many things are weird. There's no fingerprints or handprints left behind in the garbage chute. You can imagine. Like, remember when I had at my old apartment? It's tiny. It's like, you open it, it's the size of a laptop. So if someone were to put her in or she were to go in herself, there would be handprints. Clear handprints, yes. But there weren't any. And it's unclear totally if it was like, they just weren't any usable prints or no prints at all.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, fully wiped down.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly. Both of which are, you know, don't make a lot of sense. The other thing, too, is that her family and friends say that, you know, she did struggle with mental health. She did have a hard time taking her medications all the time. So her being suicidal wasn't totally out of the realm of possibility. But they point out that she had a balcony, or they point out that she was just this free spirit who loved nature. She would have taken her own life in a different way. You know, she was an artistic, creative person. You don't put yourself in a fucking trash chute. Like that's not, you don't do that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it sounds unrealistic, but it's also just like it feels like if you're in a moment like that you're not also trying to, to torture yourself in that way. Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's very, very suspicious. Like you'd think that the police, the first thing they would do when they got there would be to assume immediately that that is suicide is so far fetched. Yeah, right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like to conclude it eventually maybe. But to assume and immediately and treat the investigation that way is super suspicious.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So on Tuesday, November 30, two days before her, Phoebe goes out partying and gets so drunk that she spends pretty much the entire Day Wednesday, December 1, in bed with a hangover. Phoebe's family says this happens sometimes. And on the morning of December 1st, at about 10:30am, Phoebe sends out a group text to her mom, brothers, grandma, her boss and her boyfriend, the one she lives with. And it's concerning. And so I'm gonna read it to you. It's very odd. It says, quote, hi family, I am in bed and about to sleep, and when I wake, I will turn into the most incredible human being you've ever seen. Not I will go to the hospital. It's safer there. And I hear the special tonight is tomato soup. This is known as a tomato soup litter. Delicious, nutritious. I love you all very much, but not enough to send an individual text. Sorry about that, but time is sleep and I must be on my way. Merrily, merrily, merrily. Life is but a dream. Xo. So that is the text she sends to everyone. I try to wrap my head around it having been hungover really bad myself. And the shamies that you get and the guilt and you're awful. And I need to fix this. And I want to tell my friends and family that I swear I'm going to fix this and I'm going to get better. But it doesn't make sense. It's just a weird text.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

When she receives this text, Phoebe's mom is about to get on a plane home from Western Australia. And she's so concerned that she asks her mom, Phoebe's grandma, to contact Phoebe's boyfriend. So he picks up the call. He says he's at work, but he'll check on Phoebe after work. And this story gets even more muddy and strange because by some accounts, and it's so convoluted, Phoebe's Boyfriend had her cell phone at the time that message was sent. He said he had taken it to work that day because it was broken, so he was gonna drop it off at the store. But why would that text then come from it? It seems like someone else wrote the text. Right? And it's also like perfect punctuation, perfect.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Casing, like if she was drunk or high or there was something like that going on. Yeah, but also it's like he receives the text, he's on that thread, but then he also has the phone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He says, yeah, and there's a huge amount of confusion about the timeline and whereabouts of this iPhone. It sounds like Phoebe maybe had two phones and still had the second one on Wednesday, but it's just hard to tell. That evening, Phoebe does talk on the phone with her father for about 10 minutes, but the call happens on her boyfriend's phone, not hers, and they make a plan to have dinner together the next night.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So the next day, Thursday, the day Phoebe dies, Phoebe's boyfriend leaves for work. And by some of his later accounts, Phoebe had her iPhone up until this point. And this is the day he takes it to be fixed. He kind of changes his story a couple times, which is suspicious. Does this all making sense? Do you have any questions?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, no, I'm right with you. It's just weird knowing that you already kind of gave the caveat that he's not involved and has been cleared where it's like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But all these things like, yeah, we don't believe. We think that the reason he's cleared is because it was not properly investigated, not because he actually had nothing to do with it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So regardless, he leaves in the morning while Phoebe's still sleeping. Later that morning, there's a fire alarm in the building and Phoebe's seen on the CCTV footage with her dog filing out of the apartment. Some people point out that she seems to stumble in the footage at one point saying like, maybe she had been drinking. But she seems sure footed walking back into the building, so it's hard to say. Around noon, Phoebe's boyfriend's house cleaner comes to the apartment and she's the last person we know of to see Phoebe alive and speak to her. She says Phoebe seems sick and hungover, but not depressed, otherwise normal. So at 6pm, Phoebe's boyfriend returns to the apartment. He says it was empty when he got there, but he saw broken glass on the floor as well as a small amount of blood in some places, including on the computer keyboard. He says Phoebe's purse with her Wallet in it is on the counter, which is weird. She always takes her purse with her, so he doesn't know where she is. He has a cigarette, has a beer, and then orders Thai food, which is a weird thing because he and Phoebe were supposed to meet with her dad that night for Thai food at the same restaurant, but he doesn't know where she is. They have plans, and then he orders Thai food. They have plans for dinner.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like it doesn't when the Thai food comes just after 7pm the delivery guy mentions that there are police in the building's foyer. Something's going on. And that's when Anthony, the boyfriend, goes downstairs to discover that Phoebe's body had been found.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mm.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. I'm just thinking, like, you have these plans, and then your girlfriend is like, you can't get ahold of her. The idea that you're just gonna have some dinner.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Feels odd.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Yeah. Like, I wonder what Vince would think if he came home and I wasn't there and my purse was there. Like, he'd be. He'd know something was wrong.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He'd just be working on that. Probably.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. I don't think he'd order dinner.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I better eat.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. So this is all pretty awful. Trigger warning. Phoebe had fallen 12 stories through that shoot, more than 100ft feet first.

So the blade of the compactor machine at the bottom of the chute had badly injured her ankle on the way down. Once it gets to the bottom, there's a blade for the trash nearly severing her foot. Sorry. But it's clear from the blood on the floor of the refuse room that Phoebe had survived, that she had climbed out of the bin and crawled across the room trying to get out before ultimately dying of bloodline is what she died from.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, that's horrible.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, that's worst case scenario.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's really awful. She's found with her jeans down around her ankles, which is a weird mystery too. Did they come down when she fell or. A lot of people are. Like, a way to get her legs together to fit her in the shoot, if someone else had put her there, would be to pull her jeans down around her ankle. You know what I mean? So that's really suspicious. There's no signs of sexual assault, but she does have some bruises on various parts of her body, like her wrist and her arm. Places where someone would have had to grab her to have those bruises, but that's inconclusive. And then. So Phoebe's blood alcohol content is 0.16, which is twice the legal driving limit in the US and triple the legal limit in Australia.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So this part is like what people point to when they're like, she did it herself. And she's found to have what is essentially Ambien in her system, which is an amount consistent with a normal dose. But she also had a lot of alcohol. The coroner writes in his report that he believes Phoebe climbed into the chute in a sleepwalking state induced by the alcohol and sleeping pills. But Phoebe's family points out that they had seen her drunk on numerous occasions because she didn't have a particularly high tolerance. And they did say she was very quick to lose her sea legs, but they are extremely skeptical that she could have climbed into the chute with that amount of alcohol in her system. So it's almost like they're saying that the alcohol in Ambien made her do it. Everyone else who doesn't think so are saying, how could she have done that if she were on that much alcohol in Ambien? And why? You have to ask why she would do that. I just don't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It doesn't make sense, especially knowing that she lived through it, right, where it's like, why would you do a thing that wouldn't? If you're going to go through something like that and make a decision, and it's the aversion.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If she put herself in there, I don't think she would have known she was going to die. So she actually was wanting to take her own life. There's so many other ways to do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But if she was like totally impaired alcohol and Ambien, maybe it wasn't a decision making process that was like, normal or linear.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But if she was totally impaired on alcohol and Ambien, how could she have climbed up into the chute, fit her entire body, you know, like. And without leaving Prince behind?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's just weird. Yeah, it's weird completely either way. So the chute is about 3ft off the ground, and it's one of those ones that doesn't stay open unless you hold it open. And there's really nothing to hold onto if you were going to climb in. It's just in a wall. And it would be easy enough to get one leg in, but you'd have to be very small and very strong and very agile to get in. And that said, Phoebe is actually incredibly fit. She is learning karate and kickboxing. She spends hours at the gym. She's also a great climber. And so it might be physically possible for her to climb into the garbage chute. But at the same time, the fact that there's no usable fingerprints or handprints, Phoebe's or anyone else's, is very suspicious. So this is the botched investigation. There are many, many missed opportunities at the beginning of this investigation where the Melbourne homicide squad does not gather crucial evidence. For starters, as I said, no one checks her body for signs of life. She clearly was alive for some amount of time after her fall because of the crawling. So there might have been a chance that she was hanging on still when help first came. So the investigating officers are part of Melbourne's homicide squad, as I said. So it's not like the idea of this case involving foul play would have immediately been dismissed out of hand. Like, that is not the first thing I would think if I saw the scene is she took her own life.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not at all.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I mean, I wouldn't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

When they investigate Phoebe and her boyfriend's apartment, they do find the small blood stains on the wood floor, shattered dishes nearby, but they don't take the shattered dishes to see where it came from. There's two glasses that have been used, like cups on a bench, like, to me, that says two people had been there. They also don't take samples of her blood and they don't take her cell phone that she has and her computer as evidence to just see what's in there. There could be a, you know, a suicide note maybe. They don't even check that and they don't take the laptop for that reason. There's also blood on the laptop and they still don't take it. Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's crazy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Police also don't take the building's CCTV footage on the day of Phoebe's death. They look at it. The building manager who is in this podcast says that, like, he offered it to them, he told them that it's on a two day loop and so it erases itself every two days. He lets them know that he offers it to them and they don't take it. And they don't even look to see.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, just to, like, who's in the building at entrances and exits.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, even just to, like, rule it out that no one was there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, that's very strange.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right? It's only after more than two days have elapsed that the police contact the company that services the building CCTV footage to try to recover it. And unsurprisingly, most of it's gone. And this includes all the footage of the garage under the building, which would have shown who came and went around the time of Phoebe's death.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It just. That doesn't track at all.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, it's just basic police work, no matter what kind of crime you're looking at. There also appears to be no footage from Phoebe's hallway or the room where the garbage chute was. The police also don't lock down any particular crime scene. So there's actually three crime scenes. If you really look at it here. There's the apartment, there's the room where the chute is, and then there's the refuse room. Those are three crime scenes that should have been cordoned off. Not one of them are. And Phoebe's boyfriend and his family judges are in the apartment the whole time this is going on. They're allowed back in the apartment.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Allegedly. Allegedly. Allegedly. They don't take any of Phoebe's electronics for months. And by this time, the SIM card from her iPhone is gone. And her boyfriend admits to getting rid of it, thinking it wouldn't be useful for anything. I have never gotten rid of a SIM card. I don't even know how to do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know who does? Like, weird spies and stuff.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or anyone that's like, oh, pop this out and throw it into the river.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, that's the Karen Reed case. Remember the one cop who, like, fucking threw away a SIM card? That's so sketchy. Jesus.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Very. Yeah. Very, very.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No one gets rid of SIM cards.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I have my phones from, like, 2006 still.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I wonder if you could find out what's on there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I've tried. It's really boring.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like just photos of. It's from. So dumb. It's so, like, bad photos of dumb.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't look back, don't look back. Don't do it. But also, I didn't really put the. I mean, sitting with this. And then it's like you suddenly can see, like. And allegedly, allegedly, I'm making this up. But it's just like trying to assemble some sort of idea of what was going on that night. Where it's like two judges are in the apartment, basically dictating what is and is not going to happen. Maybe, maybe not. Who knows? But that idea, as one theory suddenly is like, oh, right, don't look at that. Shut that down. Don't go over there. Like, this is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You'd also think that they would want that to happen if they didn't think that he had anything to do with it. They would be like, what are you doing? This isn't protocol. Right. Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then get everybody in here and have everybody talking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The people who think it's suicide and who think she took her own life is him and his family.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That is fucking.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's not great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's not great. They immediately are telling, like, their friends and people, they know that it's suicide. Like putting it on Facebook instead of.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Figure out what happened.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. They're the only ones who think that it's not suspicious. That's, to me, is like, the biggest red flag.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's not great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No. Also, her sunglasses were found with her. Why would she have her sunglasses on? I mean, you know what else they didn't do is check the trash bins where she was found. They didn't check inside.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, inside something that was in the room where her body was.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. So, like, maybe. Okay, maybe she went to take trash out legitimately, ran into some awful monster, and that happened.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mm.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But then also, like, why was there glass broken in the apartment? Why was there blood? Why did she have her sunglasses with her? It's just baffling. Police also didn't take samples. I guess there were mysterious large shoe prints leading away from the apartment, and they didn't check that out at all. And then the other phone she had had been lost, so it's just her laptop. And it's months, months later that they finally take it. So Phoebe's grandfather Len, is a retired police detective, so he's like, fuck this shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And while he's devastated to lose his granddaughter, people who have spoken to him tend to agree that he's approached the question around her death logically and rationally. He gets in contact with a company that makes the garbage chute, and the company allows him. Basically, they make him a reproduction of the shoot. He's like, there's no way she would have put herself in there. Gets a reproduction of the shoot, and then asks her friend. A couple of her friends were the same size, to reenact, like, how she would have gotten into the shoot.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Whoa.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And films the whole thing. And with tremendous effort. And there's video of it, they're able to get themselves into the shoot, but not without bracing themselves on the shoot and the wall around it, which would have left, like, I think, clear finger and palm. And they can't fit into the shoot without lifting their arms above their heads. Like, it's just. It's very hard to do. It's not impossible, but it's very hard to do. And this is not something the cops would have tried to reenact, you know, yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it's just such a horribly unpleasant thing to do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I guess, like, maybe I'm just identifying with her way too much, but, like, I would never do that. I would. That's. It's gross. It's gross. It's awful. It's scary. Her friend said she was claustrophobic too. So, like, doing that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It doesn't make sense.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It doesn't make sense.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But that on top of no prints, is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Something is wrong there on top of so many things.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So meanwhile, in Victoria, Australia, at this point, they still use the antiquated coroner system, which you used to see in the UK and United States as well. And so when we talk about old murder cases, you hear us talking about the coroner convening a jury to determine whether or not a murder has taken place. It's like the coroner's inquiry, and then criminal charges stem from there. So the coroner initially rules it an open finding. That's what he rules the death as. Meaning there's not enough information to determine Phoebe's manner of death. So it's an open case. It takes years of pressure from Phoebe's family to open an official and full inquest into this. Like, you have to petition the government. And I listen to other podcasts and read other stories where it's just so hard for the family to do it. In fact, fact, they have to pay for it themselves, the family of the victim that they're trying to get an inquest for. Part of the reason it's so hard is that Phoebe's boyfriend's parents are such prominent judges, which means that they know every lawyer in town. So no lawyer can actually take the case. Right. Because it's a conflict of interest. They finally get a lawyer, and the inquest finally happens in 2014, four years after Phoebe's, and not until her mother, Natalie, is able to raise $50,000 from donations and her own savings to cover the family's legal cost to have them properly look into her daughter's death.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. The other reason it takes this long is that Phoebe's boyfriend tries to petition against there being an inquest at all. But ultimately it goes through, and it's determined at the inquest that it is very difficult to make any kind of ruling because the amount of evidence that was lost or not gathered. How convenient. At the time of her. Ultimately, the coroner rules that Phoebe died, quote, by misadventure, meaning an accident. This is against the advice of his counsel, the lawyer, who is tasked with working with the coroner to parse through the evidence.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She had written that she believed the case should be left open. The coroner writes that he believes Phoebe had gotten into the shoot herself in an altered state brought on by alcohol and Ambien, despite several medical experts testifying. While alcohol and Ambien can make people deliriously do things they believe, it's highly unlikely Phoebe would have been able to climb into the chute on her own. So, like, everyone's telling you not to rule it that way, and you just do it anyways.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Inside job, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

In 2008, so four years before Phoebe's death, a new law had made it harder for people to appeal the coroner's findings based on their own interpretations of police evidence. And so this was part of an effort to modernize the coroner system. So if the coroner had left the case open, Phoebe's family wouldn't have had to appeal because he ruled death by misadventure. They would need to appeal in order to change that. So under the 2008 law, if the appeal didn't go in their favor, they would be responsible for all of the legal fees incurred by that appeal. So pay for pay for justice. This is speculation. And allegedly, Phoebe's boyfriend has another girlfriend die by suicide in 2018, which people do or don't think is suspicious, depending on the case, whether or not you know. And it's possibly had nothing to do with either woman's death. But this is always brought up when people talk about the case. The widespread attention to Phoebe's case has led to calls for change to the coronial court system, which makes it extremely difficult for families to appeal the coroner's decision. And so, in 2018, partly because of this case, the Victoria Attorney General announces that there will be some reform to the 2008 Coroner's Act. And it's tied directly to the issues raised in the podcast that was used as my main source that I listened to called Phoebe's Fall. So they actually were able to enact changes just with this podcast, which I think is so incredible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Families are now able to challenge coroner's decisions based on more factors than they had been originally able to do so, and they're at less financial risk to do so. So we're recording the show right at the 15th anniversary of Phoebe's death, and she'd be 39 if she were alive today. And it's still one of those stories that people are just always talking about because it just doesn't make sense.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And there's so much to discuss. I mean, like, there's Layers and levels of like, even if there was no boyfriend. Right. But then it's like. But then you lay that on there, all that additional information where it's. It kind of reminds me of the staircase in that way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It totally reminds me of that they.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Discovered the other wife. And then of course, at that point. Yeah, me. The way I ingest things where it's just like, well, there we go.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It doesn't happen twice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, it doesn't happen twice. But it does.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It does.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It can and it does. But it makes something that is already suspicious seem like, well, come on. It's at least worth a second. Serious looking into.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Totally. You'd think they'd want to do that to show that they weren't being, you know, evasive. Yeah. But no. And it's just really sad. I just, I think about her and how she was 24 and struggling and then so were we and we got the chance to straighten things out and she didn't. And it's just so tragic. And I just don't. I just don't. It just doesn't make any sense. She deserved better than that, than what she got. And that's the story of the mysterious death of Phoebe Hanschook.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's. That's a lot. That's a heavy. Yeah, that needs to get solved.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's Phoebe's vault. Definitely listen to it. It's from 2016 and they've done other stories since then. And it's just a really great investigative podcast and interviewed a lot of people. A lot more details than I was able to put out there. But.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it's making change. Like it's actually affecting people who are wanting to look at it. Wow. Unbelievable.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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So can you change direction now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Please? I would love to, and I'm going.

[Karen Kilgariff]

To.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Great. Although it's not, you know, it's still over in the dark place where we like to spend our time. Because today my story is about a legendary maritime disaster. It's about a massive ship that gets caught in a horrible storm and then vanishes into thin air.

But it's not on the open ocean. It takes place on one of the vast, volatile Great Lakes. 50 years ago. Many loved ones of those who were lost in this maritime disaster are still alive and still grieving. It inspired a legendary Gordon Lightfoot song. This is the story of the sinking of the SS Edmund.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fitzgerald. Holy shit. Vince has been watching. Cause he's from Michigan, right? So, like, he knows all about it. So he's been watching, like, the documentaries and TV.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Shows. It's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Crazy. Yeah. I don't know anything about it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Though. I didn't really either. And I didn't think I knew the song. And then I listened to the song, I was like, oh, this has just been kind of playing in the background because, like, I grew up in the. The. What do they call the AM gold era of the 70s, where you just turned on the radio and there was like, amazing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Music. Music.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And Gordon Lightfoot was one of Those voices, a famous Canadian kind of traditional singer, but then he had like some amazing hits and he just very recently died. Okay, okay. So the main source used in the story today is Christopher Rowley's excellent 1996 Discovery Channel documentary called Shipwreck. The Mystery of the Edmund Fitzgerald. And the rest of the sources are in our short. So it all begins on a beautiful sunny Autumn Morning on November 9, 1975, in Superior, Wisconsin, on the shores of Lake Superior. This part of the lake is lined with enormous docks. I don't know if you've ever seen those really gigantic docks on the Great Lakes. They look like several sets of train tracks that extend half a mile out over the lake and 80ft above the water. And then basically big freighters come up and they wait to be loaded with their cargo there. And in the mid-70s, that cargo would typically be pellets of processed iron ore, which is an important industrial mineral that gets converted into steel. So the ore arrives by rail from mines in places like Minnesota. And then once it's loaded onto the ships, several tons at a time, it gets hauled through the Great Lakes and out to steel mills in rust belt cities like Cleveland and Detroit. And this is why the SS Edmund Fitzgerald is docked today, is named for the president of the insurance company that owns the ship, Edmund.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fitzgerald. Okay, you need a legacy. You gotta have a legacy, gotta do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It. But you're risking that this could be your legacy. Right. So the ship has a 29 person crew that's currently tasked with freighting iron ore eastward towards Sault Ste. Marie, Michigan, and then down to the lower Great Lakes and then ultimately landing in Detroit. So it's a massive freighter. It's 729ft long. It's the length of two football fields. Fields as a. As a.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ship.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Jesus. It towers nearly 40ft off the water. The height is a. Basically about a four story.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Building. Oh, my.

[Georgia Hardstark]

God. It weighs more than 13,000 tons when it's empty. And it can carry around 26,000 tons of cargo. And it is lovingly nicknamed Big Fitz. So the Fitzgerald is so gigantic that when it was first unveiled in the late 50s, around 10,000 people showed up to the christening ceremony just to see like what it looked like. And. But that ceremony devolved into chaos when the Fitzgerald gets launched and it basically slides sideways into the harbor and creates this huge wave that breaks onto nearby docks and drenches the thousands of spectators. And then as it kind of bobbles to right itself, it crashes into a nearby pier. And in that documentary for the Discovery Channel, they say, quote, one man is so shaken by this sight that he suffers a heart attack and dies. And another swears that the Edmund Fitzgerald trying to climb right out of the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Water.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Creepy. So just to be there and see all of that happening, the idea that a guy had a heart attack, I'm like, wait, is that my weird, like fear of gigantic ships? Am I the reincarnated soul of that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Man? Must.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Be. It's all about us at the end of the day. So this takes place 25 years after that. And since that time, the Big Fits has proven itself to be a reliable workhorse of a freighter. Its next trip is Old House Hat. It's a two day run. They've done it a lot of times over the 17 years on the Great Lakes. The captain of the Edmund Fitzgerald is 63 year old Ernest M. McSorley, who over his 44 year career has climbed the ranks. He starts as a deckhand and gets all the way up to the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Captain. I mean, with a name like McSorley, what else are you going to do with your.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Life? Come on. And you better drink whiskey and you better tell a good story and you better belly up to that bar. So there are very few people who know gigantic ships like the Edmund Fitzgerald or the quirks of the Great Lakes better than Captain Murley. And of course, like any great tragic story, he's about to retire. His wife Nellie's recovering from a stroke and so he has promised her that after this shipping season is over, he will finally come home for.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Good. Come.

[Georgia Hardstark]

On. This hall will be the Last one for Captain.

[Karen Kilgariff]

McSorley. Son of a fucking.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Bitch. But he thinks it's the last one for a different reason than it will. It takes dozens of deckhands about 6 hours to load all the iron ore pellets into the Fitzgerald cargo holds just below deck. Then it takes another half hour to close those holds and they have to manually seal the hatches. And those hatches are above deck. And once the hatch cover clamps are shut and I'm going like this, but I don't know why. I know nothing about what I'm talking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

About. It could go that way, it could go a different.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Way. I'm picturing it like those hermit hermetic jars with the like ball jars with a little bit of rubber. It's probably nothing like that, but anyway, that's a very important part of it where they have to seal that and then they'll be weathertight. Once those clamps are sealed around 2 o', clock, the Edmund Fitzgerald is Ready to set out. It's a warm, beautiful autumn day in Superior, Wisconsin. It makes it seem like everything's going to be smooth sailing. But the Great Lakes are known to throw a few curveballs weather wise, especially at this time of year because it's autumn. So the water's still a little bit warm from the summer, but the cold fronts come in and that's how you get all the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Action. Okay, again, good to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Know. I don't really know this. I am reading. So if you grow up in this part of the United States or Canada, you know kind of how all this works. But if you didn't like us. The Great Lakes are very large. Collectively, they span 95,000 square miles, and they hold about 20% of the entire planet's fresh water. What? Yeah, they're a big deal. And one of them, the one that the Edmund Fitzgerald will be crossing in this run, is Lake Superior, and it's by far the largest. Superior contains about half of the Great Lake's total water. So of the 20% on the planet, 10% is Lake Superior. Not sure if that math is right. Sounds right, but basically that would be somewhere around 3, quadrillion gallons of water.

So we're up above Trillian into an area I don't like to go.

[Karen Kilgariff]

To. I'm not.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There. Please, let's not. That's enough to flood the entirety of both north and South America. One foot deep in.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Water. Holy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Shit. It's roughly the size of Maine. Lake Superior is. And at its deepest point, you could submerge the Empire State Building, and only its antenna would be sticking out of the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Lake.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow. So just what's down there? The fish with the light? Yeah, there's some freshwater version of that guy and merman. So what? Captain Mick Sorley is now sailing across. I don't think sailing is the right word. Traversing has the ability to generate and amplify its own weather systems, just like the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ocean.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Whoa. In autumn, I just explained to you this part. Cold fronts move in and it clashes with the warmer lake water. Still, not warm water, but warmer than the cold fronts. And that causes these violent storms that are called the Witches of November. So Captain McSorley isn't fooled by the beautiful afternoon weather. He knows conditions on the lakes turn quickly. He's been doing it for 40 years. He's also been following the weather reports, but it is the mid-70s, so they're slower and, of course, more rudimentary than we're used to. Still, when they start this journey, there's no weather Warnings in effect. But what Captain McSorley doesn't know is there is a powerful weather system moving out of the Great Plains and doing what's called a panhandle hook. You know this one, It's a storm that originates in the Texas and Oklahoma panhandles. It moves east before making a hook shape motion northeast and straight toward the Great Lakes. And this type of weather pattern is rare and it comes as a surprise even to the forecasters. So several hours after the Edmund Fitzgerald leaves Superior, Wisconsin, the lake suddenly becomes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Rough. That scares me so much because it's like you can plan all you want. Like that recent Tahoe storm that came out of.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nowhere. Yes. And just killed people that were out, like on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Kayaks. Because it was a beautiful day. And no one expected.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That. No. And suddenly hailing. I saw video of people on the shore where it was just like huge balls of.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hail. It's just not fair.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Weather. It's a little crazy. Okay, so 9 o' clock that night. It's seven hours into the Fitzgerald's trip. And the National Weather Service issues a gale warning for Lake Superior, meaning that they're anticipating sustained winds between 39 and 55 miles an.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hour. An.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hour. And just for perspective, a Category 1 hurricane falls between 75 and 95 miles an hour. So it's approaching hurricane levels. Not there yet. It's not an ideal situation. But Captain McSorley, he's seen it all. And also, he's not alone out there. There's another big iron ore freighter called the SS Arthur M. Anderson. These fucking men in their.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Boats. Name a boat after.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Me. Name a boat after I demand it. So that ship is also completing the same trip across Lake Superior. And that ship is helmed by Captain Bernie Cooper, a 30 year veteran of the field. And they're only about 10 miles behind the Fitzgerald. So those two captains see each other on each other's ship's radar and they radio to each other. They check in. Captain Cooper is charting the weather himself and based on the latest forecasts, so he warns Captain McSorley the situation is gonna get much, much worse. And Captain McSorley heeds that warning. He wants to ensure everything on the Fitzgerald is weather tight and secured, so the ship won't take on any water as the weather deteriorates. So the crew is dispatched to double check all the clamped hatch covers. Okay. Around midnight, the National Weather Service upgrades its existing gale warning to a storm warning. Now it's predicting the northeast winds of up to 57 miles per hour or more. It's Getting close. But even before that issue is posted, the Fitzgerald is already clocking winds out of the north northeast at 60 miles an hour and waves that are 10ft.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Tall. Ooh, in a.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Lake. In a.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Lake. So.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Weird.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Lakes, how do they.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Work? Lakes? And suddenly it's just like a bank is sitting next to you on your boat. So of course there's rainfall, so there's very low visibility. But the Fitzgerald and the Anderson can see each other on their radars. They remain in radio contact, so they're not that worried about that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Part. The buddy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

System. Yes, exactly. These big boats have friends. Not long after the upgraded warning is posted, the captains decide they're gonna reroute north and chart a new path that runs along the Canadian shoreline. So even though it makes the trips longer, being closer to land will give them cover from these northeasterly winds. Okay. And of course it's not an ideal situation, but because these captains have 80 years of experience between them, they feel like they have it under control. But by 5am the next morning on November 10, the situation becomes more volatile. The skies above the two ships on Lake Superior darken. The clouds swell and the captains find themselves in the thick of a brutal storm. The freighters are hit with wind gusts at nearly 100 miles an hour. So we've gone double hurricane to 100. Yeah, that's actually what you'd see in a Category 2 hurricane. Huge waves dump water onto the decks. As these ships rise and fall on the Superior like little bath toys, they have no other option than to keep moving. So around noon that day, the two captains decide it's time to turn back south towards Sault Ste. Marie. But this is a little tricky because it requires passing an area called the Six Fathom Shoal, which is a shallow mile long underwater reef. But it's not a coral reef. It's made up of huge jagged.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Rocks.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cool. Uh huh. And those are rocks that could absolutely of course, rip up the belly of a ship like this. Normally captains have to avoid the shoal. In this storm, they can't maintain the control to avoid the shoal. Large waves are knocking the freighters around while making it hard to get a visual on the shoals themselves. So they can't see and they know they're going toward them. And then it starts to snow and it snows really hard. And before long they're in white out conditions on the lake and they can only track each other by radar. Then around 3pm, which is a full 24 hours into this trip, Captain Cooper looks at his radar and he sees that the Fitzgerald is dangerously close to Six Fathom Shoal. So around 3:10 he radios Captain McSorley. But McSorley brings up an entirely different problem, which is, he says the seas are so high they're interfering with the Fitzgerald's radar system. And so he's now blindly navigating on Lake Superior in whiteout conditions with waves the size of three story buildings. They've gone to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Three. No, thank.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You. McSorley tells Cooper that Fitzgerald is taking, quote, heavy seas over the deck and listing to one side, which means the ship is taking on water. But McSorley doesn't know if that's purely because of the waves or because of their structural damage below deck. He tells Cooper his crew is working to pump out all the water to right the ship. So then the captains come up with a plan. Mixorley is going to slow the Fitzgerald and give Cooper a chance to catch up to him because they were about 10 miles apart. And then McSorley is going to follow the Anderson to the nearest safe harbor because they have radar. And that will be several miles away in Whitefish Bay, which is on the eastern end of Lake Superior between Ontario and Michigan. But by 4pm, hurricane force winds are still blowing. More snow is dumping down and in these violent waves, Captain Cooper struggles to keep a visual on the Fitzgerald. So the Fitzgerald couldn't see them. And now he can barely see the Fitzgerald. The navigation issues that McSorley mentioned also mean that Anderson can only intermittently see the ship on his race radar and it keeps basically dropping on and off the map. So now it's 5pm Anderson's still trying to catch up to the Edmund Fitzgerald. And of course Captain McSorley is on edge. He's radioing to any and all reachable ships to check his position. Since his radar's down, he actually connects with a Swedish vessel in Whitefish Bay. McSorley tells that ship's crew that waves are still washing over his cargo deck and that in his 40 years he's never seen a storm this powerful. At 6:40pm Captain Cooper reports a succession of two 35 foot rogue waves that knock into the Anderson. The Discovery documentary describes these waves as, quote, as powerful as those found in a mid ocean cyclone. So it just goes, you seen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That video of the fucking wave in the ocean when that tank tanker, oh my God, it's the scariest thing I've ever.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Seen. When they, they used to do the North Sea things, you're like, oh, whatever, yeah, how do they do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That? I Don't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Know. And then they kind of just get used to it. It's like that's what regular life is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like. No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Please. No, please don't make us do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That. Stop making us become.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sailors.

At 7:10pm, Captain McSorley radios over to the Anderson again, and this time he talks to First Mate Morgan Clark, who can see the Fitzgerald on the radar. He gives Murley his position, and when Clark asks the captain how he's faring, McSorley simply replies, quote, we are holding our own. Those are his last words. Minutes later, at 7:15, the Edmund Fitzgerald drops off the radar and it never reappears. By 7:30, the storm is still raging on Lake Superior, but the snowfall lightens up a little bit, so visibility improves. Based on the Fitzgerald's last position, Captain Cooper thinks he could be getting closer to them. But when he looks out to catch a glimpse of them, he can't see anything. Like he can't see them at all. And at the same time, the Anderson's first mate, Morgan Clark, is trying to reach Captain Murley again by radio, but there's no answer. So a rattled Captain Cooper calls the US Coast Guard, tells them he's worried that something terrible has happened. So the Coast Guard launches an immediate search for the Edmund Fitzgerald. But there's a problem. All their big rescue ships are too far away, and the smaller boats can't go through that storm. They can't weather it. The Coast Guard starts with an air search, but they don't see any sign of the Fitzgerald at all from the air. A ship that's the size of two football fields seems to have vanished. The immediate presumption, of course, would be that the Fitzgerald sand, because basically, what else could it be? But the idea that it could go under that quickly without Captain Cooper or one of the Coast Guard planes seeing it at all is pretty unbelievable. And just for a very rough comparison, the Titanic, which is much, much larger, but still it's, you know, comparable. It took two and a half hours to sink, right? So the idea that suddenly it's just gone crazy. With a few other options available, the Coast Guard Guard asks the captains of eight large ships sheltering in Whitefish Bay to join this search. Basically, they're asking all these captains who have just come in from a storm to go back.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So nearly all of them decline, but two do agree. One is Captain Don Erickson of the William Clay Ford, which is another big ore freighter, and the other is none other than Captain Bernie Cooper of the Arthur Anderson. So those two ships spend all night searching for the Edmund Fitzgerald. They find.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nothing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow. That is until 11am the next morning when they see a battered lifeboat, which Captain Cooper says, quote, looked like a giant hand had just taken and torn it in.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Two. There's nobody in the.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Lifeboat. It's just the boat torn in half. Shit. Yeah. They see an oil slick and more debris, like an inflatable raft and some life jackets. But by this point, any hope for survivors is gone. The lake water is less than 50 degrees, which is only survivable for a short window of time, even when the water calm. But this water is not calm, which makes it even more lethal. A Coast Guardsman named James Hobart will say, quote, we searched for three days in probably the roughest seas I've been in in my life, including the North Atlantic and hurricanes in the Gulf. Yikes. On November 14th, four days after the Edmund Fitzgerald disappears, a US Navy plane using magnetic detecting gear hits on a large object at the bottom of Lake Superior, right around where the Fitzgerald was last seen on radar. And using the military's equipment, searchers are soon able to determine that this is, in fact the Edmund Fitzgerald split in two on the bottom of the lake, 17 miles away from Whitefish Bay, where they were trying to get to. That means Captain McSorley almost got his crew to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Safety. Yeah, 17 miles is not a.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Lot. It's so close when it's two football fields on its way. But even after the ship's located, no one can agree on what actually caused it to go down. Two federal investigations are conducted in the late 70s. Both concede we'll never know exactly what happened. But they both suggest the likeliest culprit were those hatch covers on the cargo.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Holds. Oh, those bell jar things you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Were talking about the bell jars. A report suggests that they might not have been clamped tightly enough. And in the storm, huge waves pouring onto the deck, there's so much lake water spilled into the cargo holds, and basically the ship became so waterlogged that it went down. It made it go down fast. But that's a very controversial theory for a couple reasons. One, it puts a blame on the crew, on the Fitzgerald's crew. Many people object to that because these people knew what they were doing. They did it all the time. But many Great Lakes captains and engineers reject that theory. Because even if the covers weren't perfectly sealed, we know that they were as close to that as possible because the captain called for them to be rechecked. It's hard to imagine enough water would have been able to down a 729 foot ore freighter in seconds. It just doesn't make.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sense. You gotta imagine that it's able to take on some amount of water without fucking falling.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Apart. Yes. Right. So that brings us to the second theory, which is people thinking that the Edmund Fitzgerald actually was physically damaged, either by a stress fracture incurred while it was just being slammed around in the water or. Or because it scraped six fathom shoal. And that's what Captain Cooper thinks happened. He theorizes that the fatal blow actually happened hours before the sinking. When Captain McSorley first reported the Fitzgerald was listing. Captain Cooper has said, quote, I don't care what anybody says. At 3:10 in the afternoon, she, meaning the Fitzgerald, had either bottomed out or had a stress fracture in the hull. That's the only two possibilities. She was sinking from that time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

On. Yeah, that makes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sense. That makes much more sense. Cooper also points out it's totally possible Captain McSorley didn't even feel the fatal blow or scrape because the lake was so turbulent that it was like one of many things going.

[Karen Kilgariff]

On.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. But that still doesn't explain why Captain Murley, who was using his radio, didn't call anyone as the ship was actually.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sinking.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. It adds to the suspicion that it went down within seconds. So whether you ascribe to the theory about the hatches or the damage, many people also think that there was a catastrophic rogue wave that took the already compromised ship and buried her before any of its crew could escape or call for.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Help. Yeah, you'd think if it sunk, like, at least some people would have.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Gotten off of it, gotten away somehow or. Yeah. And also the fact that it's just cracked in two, so we'll never truly know what happened. And that, of course, has been a source of pain for the crew's loved ones over the years, Many, many of whom first learned about the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald by watching the nightly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

News. Oh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Man. Horrible. So very soon after that wreck, Canadian traditional singer Gordon Lightfoot, who's beloved. Anyway, some great hits if you. I think Sundown might be one of my favorite songs of all time. He has that really good low voice in the beard and he was like. He was, you know, he's a hot.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Guy. Drink smeller. Genuine Draft or.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Something. Yeah, he was like the vibe of the mid to late 70s. So he reads about the Edmund Fitzgerald sinking in Newsweek weeks after the tragedy, and he is really upset that it wasn't more widely reported and more people don't know about that tragedy. So he goes into the studio and he records what would end up being his legendary ballad, the Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald, which he will later say is his proudest.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Achievement.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow. What I think is really interesting, and I did see this on TikTok so grain, but somebody said what you hear. It was a guy that knew so much. He was like one of those music guys. And sorry I didn't write down his name that you knew. He probably read like four books on the Wreck and on Gordon Lightfoot and on Canada and the 70s. He had a little pork pie hat. And he said that basically Gordon Lightfoot got like an Irish traditional ballad. Like those are the chords he was using. And they just wrote the actual words. And they went into the studio to record it. And he just told everybody, just like, play what you feel. Cause it's a really simple tune. And they got the first take, and then when they tried to go do it again, like the real version, it just didn't feel right. So what you hear when you hear it is their very first take ever of the song. It's wild, very cool. And, like, people were asking questions. He's like, I don't know. Just do what you think sounds good. And like, that's what it ended up being. Which then ended up being number one on the Canadian charts and went to number two on the American. So it was a huge hit. Again, not as good as sundown. Okay. Shouldn't be arguing that in this story. Truly, it's like all of Canada knocks on our door. So to this day, the bodies of the crew of the Edmund Fitzgerald remain buried in Lake Superior, 530ft underwater. And over the years, the crew's friends and families have come to see the wreck site as a burial place that should be respected as such. They've made it clear they don't want dives to the wreckage. They don't want any.

They want everything to remain on board as it was and just for it to be like that sacred place. But for most families, there's been one exception to that rule. In the mid-90s, they agreed that the Edmund Fitzgerald's bell, which is the heart of any ship, should be excavated and brought up and used as a monument. It's a huge endeavor involving careful planning and a team of expert diversity. But ultimately, it's a success. And in 1995, the bell is removed and replaced with a replica that lists the names of Captain McSorley and his 28.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Crewmen.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow. And the same year, during a dedication ceremony for the bell, each man's name is read aloud one by one. And as they are, their respective family members ring the bell to honor their lost loved one. Don Dynarsky Jr. Of the Great Great Lakes Shipwreck Historical Society is among the speakers at this event. And he says in his speech that, quote, as we remember the men and hear the tolling of the bell, we should grieve, but we should also celebrate their lives as well. As the bell is in their hearts, so they are in the bell. And in the bell's tone are the voices of the men. And we shall.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Listen.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow. So Captain Bernie Cooper has already. He passed in 1993, when he was in his mid-70s, before that ceremony to took place. But his heroism is reflected in the US Coast Guard Distinguished Public Service Award that he's given for his participation in the search effort. And today, Big Fitz's bell is on display at the Great Lakes Shipwreck Historical Society Museum, which is fittingly located in Whitefish Point in Michigan, which is the entry point for Whitefish Bay. Just a few weeks ago In November of 2025, events commemorating the 50th anniversary of the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald took place there. And as many as 3,000 people showed up to pay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Tribute.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow. So those in attendance would have heard the ship's bell ring 31 times. So since that very first ceremony back in the 90s, two additional bell ringings have been added. It rings 29 times for the Edmund Fitzgerald's lost crew. It rings a 30th time for all sailors lost on the Great Lakes. And since 2023, there's an additional ring commemorating Gordon Lightfoot, history himself, who passed away that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Year. No way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And what's interesting is that Gordon Lightfoot actually wrote the song and then talked to surviving loved ones and tweaked the original lyrics if there was anything that, like, he got wrong or that he changed. And basically this song has undeniably preserved the history and kept the story of this horrible disaster alive. And the week of November 13, 2025, when it was the anniversary, the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald topped the US Billboard's rock digital song sales for the very first time. Cause 4 million Americans streamed it that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Week.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What? Yep. And that's the story of the sinking of the SS Edmund Fitzgerald.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow. Vince is gonna be so pleased that I now know what the fuck.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Happened, what all that's about. Yeah, I mean, it's such a. It's so funny. Cause it's like there's so many people that really love that song. And it's like it's important to them. But also, if you want to absolutely destroy a karaoke night, you sign.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Up for that song in a good way or bad, destroy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It. Like the worst way, where everyone's like, cause it's a bummer. And there's probably 95 verses. Like, you're just like, and it's the same. It's the same thing the whole.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Time. Okay, that's good to know. Cause destroy can mean.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Anything. If you're out to ruin someone's karaoke birthday.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Party. There you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Go. That's my recommendation. Write in if you disagree with me and you're super upset right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Now. Speaking of being super upset, this has been my favorite.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Murder. That's right. We hope we've helped you process some big feelings.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Today. You've helped us so.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Much. Yeah. And is it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

2026? Not.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yet.

We're going to make it to the end real soon. So, so.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Soon. Real.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Soon. Until we do, stay sexy and don't get.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Murdered. Goodbye, Elvis. Do you want a.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cookie?

This has been an exactly right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Production. Our senior producer is Molly Smith and our associate producer is Tessa.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hughes. Our editor is Aristotle.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Acevedo. This episode was mixed by Liana.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Squillace. Our researchers are Mary McGlashan and Ali.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Elkin. Email your hometowns to my favorite.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Murdermail.Com and follow the the show on Instagram at My favorite.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Murder. Listen to my favorite murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Podcasts. Or you can watch us on YouTube, search for my favorite murder, then like and.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Subscribe.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye.

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