511 - They'll All Pay

Summary

My Favorite Murder – Episode 511: "They'll All Pay"

Date: December 18, 2025
Hosts: Karen Kilgariff & Georgia Hardstark
Podcast Network: Exactly Right/iHeartPodcasts

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Karen and Georgia dive into the notorious true crime story of the 1994 attack on figure skater Nancy Kerrigan, famously involving her rival Tonya Harding. The episode is rich in cultural reflection, dark humor, and empathy, as the hosts break down not only the events themselves but also the media frenzy, social pressures, and systemic sexism that surrounded the saga. The conversation is threaded with signature MFM banter, personal asides, and cultural context—making the Kerrigan-Harding tale both a history lesson and a critical look at 90s America.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Holiday Season Banter and Groundwork

• [02:31] Georgia arrives energetic—“I just had caffeine, so I'm ready to fucking go.”
• Cozy, quirky, and relatable holiday complaints—cuddling dog pillows, unwashed family quilts, visiting childhood homes.
• The importance of small acts of kindness, especially for family, highlighted by a heartfelt listener story about supporting her mother and sister through their first holiday without their dad.
• Notable Quote:

  “Your question about how we're all getting back allows me to make the case. I may actually be more like a luminous angel or Tinkerbell in all of this.” - Georgia reading listener letter (05:13)

2. Podcast & Network Recommendations

• [07:01] Georgia recommends "Beth's Dead," a podcast about the dangers of parasocial podcast-listener relationships in the era of catfishing.

• [09:28] Karen shares an uplifting update about the Parley Overpass—a wildlife bridge in Utah leading to a 77% reduction in animal/vehicle collisions and a “100% moose crossing success rate.”

  • Notable Quote:

    “You never missed a moose.” - Karen (10:22)

• [11:11] Discussion about their Exactly Right podcast network and recent shows.

3. Charity & Giving Back

• [13:41] December’s featured donation: $10,000 to World Central Kitchen, led by Chef José Andrés, helping communities in crisis with meals during disasters and conflicts.
  • Notable Quote:

    "Their mission is to use the power of food to heal, support, and rebuild communities when they need it the most.” - Karen (14:02)

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The Main Story: The Kerrigan-Harding Figure Skating Scandal

4. Setting the Scene – Media Sensation in the 90s

• [19:12] Georgia introduces the iconic 1994 skating scandal:
  • “If you were alive and at least semi-conscious during the 90s, you vividly remember this story… the country’s most infamous January 6th until 2011.”
  • Karen and Georgia reminisce about the pervasive coverage—tabloids, late-night jokes, endless TV news cycles.

5. Background on Nancy Kerrigan and Tonya Harding

• [21:52] Nancy Kerrigan: America’s Ice Princess

  • Working-class family in Massachusetts, supportive parents, especially after her dad’s sacrifices (driving Zamboni for ice time).
  • “She was rich in…having a stable family. And that's a privilege in itself.” - Georgia (28:04)

• [29:10] Tonya Harding: The Outsider Rebel

  • Tough upbringing in rural Oregon, poverty, abusive mother, early exposure to adversity.

  • Early, fierce skating talent, driven by athleticism over elegance; known for power, persistence, and refusing to conform to skating’s elite image.

  • Discussion of how childhood poverty and chaos can alter brain development and self-esteem.

  • Tonya’s challenging relationship with her mother, including public abuse—a reflection of “how much chaos and poverty in childhood can lead to subsequent cognitive and social development issues.” - Georgia (29:39)

  • Notable Quote:

    “If you have the kind of mom that'll beat you with a brush in a bathroom in front of people, then there isn’t a lot of protection going on.” - Karen (34:12)

6. The Rivalry and Media Stereotypes

• Contrasts between the “graceful, humble” Nancy and “tough, athletic” Tonya.
• Judges’ subjectivity and class prejudice—how Tonya’s homemade costumes and daring music choices led to harsher scoring.
• Media fueled the “ice princess vs. rebel” narrative even though little real animosity occurred between Nancy and Tonya.

7. The Plot: The Attack on Nancy Kerrigan

• [23:39] Description of the attack: Nancy is struck in the knee by a man with a metal baton after a practice—her wailing “Why? Why?” becomes instantly iconic and widely replayed.
• The attack was clumsily planned, with the assailant smashing out through a locked glass door—“not subtle, dude.”

8. Investigation and Unraveling

• [60:31] (1:00:31) Portland TV station receives anonymous letter fingering Tonya’s husband, Jeff Gillooly, and “bodyguard” Shawn Eckhardt.
• Interview footage suggests Tonya may have been intimidated by Jeff, raising doubts about her role.
• Shawn Eckhardt, bragging about involvement, quickly confesses and exposes the whole plan:
  • Four men involved, with Jeff as architect; two men travel to Detroit to physically attack Nancy; careless planning—with all expenses charged to their own credit cards.
• Incriminating evidence against Tonya: her handwritten note with Kerrigan’s rink details (64:20)

9. The 1994 Olympic Fallout

• Nancy recovers and, due to public sympathy and intervention, takes Michelle Kwan’s spot on the Olympic team.

  • [58:44] Kwan, just 13, graciously accepts being bumped—“How graceful is that of her? ... Like, fucking cool.” (59:16)

• Tonya, embroiled in the investigation, is allowed to compete as there’s no formal charge.

• Both women skate at Lillehammer:

  • Nancy delivers strong performances, ultimately winning silver.
  • Tonya chokes under pressure—her skate lace breaks, she is visibly distraught, finishes 8th.

• Notable Commentary:

  • Karen, on Tonya’s breakdown:

    “The second her lace was broken… the pressure was building, building, building. … it wasn’t the shoelace. You wanted out.” (69:32)

• Oksana Baiul wins gold. US sports media is unsatisfied. Hosts reflect on how public sympathy for Nancy transmogrifies into media fatigue—“double punished for something she had no control over.” (72:01)

10. Aftermath & Legacy

• March 1994: Tonya pleads guilty to “conspiracy to hinder prosecution.” She is stripped of her titles and banned from skating professionally or coaching for life (72:52).
  • “That’s some vengeful skating authorities. … Let her coach. How does that hurt you?” – Karen (73:14)
• Tonya’s later life—reality TV, comes third in Dancing with the Stars in 2018 (74:00).
• Nancy becomes a commentator, has a family, continues involvement in skating.
• The 1994 saga is credited with catapulting US figure skating—and its athletes—into massive popularity and lucrative opportunity.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the attack video:

  “I’ll never forget the sound of her voice. … she’s yelling over and over again, desperately asking, Why? Why? Why?” – Georgia (23:43)

• On media bias and sexism:

  "We’ve all been raised to hate women so much that we can figure out a way to hate any woman." – Karen (24:35)

• On perseverance:

  “That's the best motivation is when someone's like, oh, you don't think I can do that?... let me go ahead.” – Georgia (35:53)

• On competing in a judgmental sport:

  “You have to look different to do something different.” – Karen (49:24)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:31 – Holiday banter, giving back anecdotes
• 07:01 – Podcast recommendations ("Beth’s Dead")
• 09:28 – Parley Overpass wildlife bridge update
• 13:41 – December donation: World Central Kitchen
• 19:12 – Introduction to the Kerrigan/Harding saga
• 21:52 – Nancy Kerrigan’s background
• 29:10 – Tonya Harding’s background
• 34:35 – Tonya’s challenges and media stereotypes
• 39:03 – Nancy’s endorsements, cultural connotations
• 40:36 – Tonya’s relationship with Jeff Gillooly
• 48:06 – Tonya’s triple axel achievement
• 54:45 – The 1994 “Leggs” US Championships
• 58:44 – Michelle Kwan gives up her Olympic spot for Nancy
• 60:31 – The FBI investigation and media circus
• 64:20 – Tonya’s incriminating note surfaces
• 67:15 – 1994 Olympics, Nancy and Tonya compete
• 69:32 – Tonya's skate lace drama
• 72:01 – Oksana Baiul wins gold; reflections on fallout
• 72:52 – Tonya's banishment from skating
• 74:00 – Both women on “Dancing With the Stars”
• 75:29 – Kerrigan/Harding saga’s long cultural impact
• 76:07 – Wrap up, reflections, and comedic closing

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Tone, Style, and Listener Value

The episode brings the classic MFM blend—irreverent, empathetic, personal, and reflective. Karen and Georgia use gallows humor and candid self-reflection to offer both substance and comfort for their listeners. The discussion illuminates how class, sexism, ambition, and spectacle shaped the Kerrigan/Harding narrative—and how these forces remain relevant today.

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Summary Takeaways

• The Kerrigan-Harding episode is emblematic of 90s media sensationalism, gendered expectations, and collective schadenfreude.
• Tonya Harding's story, as retold, is one of immense adversity, misunderstood ambition, and tragic consequences, while Nancy Kerrigan emerges as a study in grace, perseverance, and public scapegoating.
• The legacy of the scandal is complex: it changed figure skating forever, exposed societal double standards, and remains a touchstone for how we process public “scandal” and women's ambition.

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Closing Advice (MFM style): Not only stay sexy and don't get murdered—also, don't let the media pit women against each other, and question the stories we’re fed about blame, ambition, and success.

Transcript

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is exactly right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

On December 19th. Based on the best selling novel the Housemaid, Amanda Seyfried and Sydney Sweeney star in a wildly entertaining thriller about a live in housemaid and the wealthy Winchester family.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The Housemaid is a twisted world where perfection is an illusion and nothing is as it seems.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The shocking twist will leave you guessing until the very end.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can you keep a secret?

[Georgia Hardstark]

The Housemaid Rated R. Only in theaters December 19th.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Get tickets now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Now streaming on Paramount, it's the new limited series Little Disasters.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Based on the book by the author of Anatomy of a Scandal and starring Diane Krueger and Joe Joyner, Little Disasters is a gripping story of unraveling secrets and fractured relationships that will leave you on the edge of your seat.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Bella magazine declares, if you loved Big Little Lies, then this psychological drama is for you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Little Disasters Binge all episodes on Paramount. Goodbye. The holiday season can be overwhelming.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's chaos out there. But Bombas has socks, slippers and gifts for literally everyone on your list.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Really is something for everyone on this. And I know it's like cliche, you're getting people slippers, but can I just tell you how excited I get when I get a new pair of slippers?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Especially those Bombas slippers that are that cool multicolor knit. I really love those slippers. I got a pair for doing these ads and then wore them and loved them so much I just went and bought three more pairs because I knew they would be perfect gifts. So head over to bombas.com mfm and use code mfm for 20% off your first purchase.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's B O M B A S.com mfm code mfm at checkout.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So let me get this straight. Your company has data here, there and everywhere, but your AI can't use the data because it's here, there and everywhere? Seems like something's missing. Every business has unique data. IBM helps your AI access your data wherever it lives. To change how you do business, let's create smarter business IBM. Hello and welcome to my favorite murderer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's Georgia Hardstar, that's Karen Kilgariff, and this is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I just had caffeine, so I'm ready to fucking go.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We are about to start our senior honor choir and you are going to be the subject of it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Happy holidays, everyone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Are you having fun?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are you stuck at the house you grew up in with the people you grew up with?

[Karen Kilgariff]

What kind of quilt is on you right now? Is it. Did your great aunt make it for you?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Has it ever been washed?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is it the cat's favorite quilt.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Does it smell like cat pee?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, it does.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That means it's Christmas.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you ever have that when someone comes over and they like cuddle up with a pillow and you don't want to say to them like, that's the dog's pillow. Does that rabbit. Oh my God, that has all the time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know what's funny is I just hope no one ever goes and sits down on my couch, like, independently. Because I'm like, you're not gonna.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're just gonna, essentially, is what you're saying.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hair all over yourself. I mean, you can.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, that's exactly where she puts her butthole. But I can't tell you that now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because you're putting your butthole there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So stop putting your butthole on my dog's. Jesus Christ.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's the theme for this holiday season.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Amen. Stop it. Okay, we do have. Speaking of holiday season, we asked people how they were giving back.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, and you've got some anecdotes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I do, because we're doing our December donation thing and I have a funny one if you want to hear it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, please.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm giving back this season. A whole lot of Catholic daughter shit. I usually try to do my holiday giving to strangers, folks with deep needs I've never faced. But this year I find those closest to me need a hand in ways only someone close is really equipped for. I'm the never married, childless adult daughter in my family and we're all entering the holiday season for the first time without my dad, who died just after New Year's 2025. Sorry. My mom's 80, frail and alone for the first time since a one year period in the early 70s between her leaving the covenant and being conventional, between leaving the convent and meeting my dad on a beach in New Jersey. Can we leave and covet? Because I want her to have actually been a Satan worshiper.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She covets that story. Okay, so the nun left the convent, went to the beach and picked up a man. I love it. And never left his side. No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My sister has a years long immune condition that can make chasing after her grammar school aged little boys a real uphill climb. So my spring, summer and holiday giving isn't shifts at a food bank or checks to charities. It's lugging in the cat litter for mom's pets, sorting her recyclables every week and joining her for an occasional menthol light on kitchen stools by the window while we watch Wheel of Fortune.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that sounds amazing. That is the dream.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Or figure skating competitions.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's listening to my nephews bitch about the nature walks. I march them on, let my sister nap in the afternoon. And my stumbling through impenetrably complex Pokemon battles so she can go out and get a massage. Yeah, I can mope a little like I'm the Cinderella in all this. But your question about how we're all getting back allows me to make the case. I may actually be more like a luminous angel or Tinkerbell in all of this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

At least that's how I'll think about it next time I'm kneeled down scooping a cat box for someone I love. E in Oregon.

[Karen Kilgariff]

E. What a beautiful. Thank you for sending that in. And what a beautiful sentiment. Cause that is everything to the people you love the most. So. What a donation to give.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, there's always something you could do, even if you don't think you have the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. For example, when I'm home with my father over the holidays and I get myself coffee from usually Pete's Coffee downtown, have it delivered to the house. Cause it's seven in the morning. I'll get him a lemon loaf.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, Karen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I get him a lemon loaf. I won't make him get his own.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just for Christmas or the whole year.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just for Christmas.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, God. Yeah. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Don't worry because you don't want to spoil them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like. Calm down, Calm down, Jim.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Dad, that's your lemon loaf. So I don't know what else you want from me. Did I tell you that? Did I tell you on this podcast, really the only time that counts?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That when I came home from Thanksgiving, when I drove home, it was 12 hours in the car.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You did. We talked about it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

God damn.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I talked about it with Vince. It was so hard to hear. So we discussed it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I drove back down and then back up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I just still can't get over it. But also, nothing else has happened to me since that time. I've really shaken easy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's a good segue. I have a podcast in case you're driving 12 hours.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Perfect.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or you wanna leave your life for a minute in your head. I binged this podcast in 26 hours. It's 10 episodes. And I binged it within a little over a day. Cause it was so fucking good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's called Beth's Dead. So my friend Elizabeth Lane, she's been a podcaster since 2010. So she's like, oh, gee. Has always done it with her husband, Andy Rosen. She's the sweetest person. And they stopped podcasting suddenly, out of nowhere, because they had a really awful experience with a listener.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And so they told their friend Monica Padman from Armchair Expert about it, and Monica, as podcasters do, said, let's make a podcast about it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So it's 10 episodes called Beth's Dead. About. They had to quit podcasting because they were so afraid for their lives. But the whole podcast, it's almost like they're opening it back up and looking into it, and Monica's kind of leading them along the way to, like, find out what happened. It does. Not the way you think it's gonna end. It's actually kind of heartwarming. Well.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Really?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. I mean, I don't wanna spoil it, but I'll use the term catfishing, and I'll just throw it out there because I know you love a good catfishing story.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, I think it's from being too old to be on, like, the apps and really a part of the real social part of the Internet.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you have FOMO of being catfished?

[Karen Kilgariff]

A little bit. I just never. I wasn't picked even to be catfished. They didn't know how to get a hold of me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Girl, when it comes to catfishing, I really am.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I really am. Wait, I'm trying to. Okay, I'm following that now. Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Betstead, I love it. You just can't put it down. Put it down.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, put it down of your ears. That's a really cool one, too, because it's like, it deserves to be explained or, like, gone into. But, you know, they say, like, well, and I don't know anything about it, but it's like, usually you're not supposed to give those things air.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And they made a whole fucking series about it. But it also explores parasocial relationships. So she was, like, telling me that I should listen just as, like, a cautionary tale. Really? I do all of it wrong?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. I mean, it's so hard.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And also, it isn't the same as. I don't know. It's just such a weird, different time. It's like, there need to be updated rules for this time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Absolutely. And that was 2015, so she kind of. And she's such a sweetheart. She didn't really know that the relationship isn't what you think it's gonna be. And it's fucking gnarly. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We all have to listen to Beth's dead and really process some stuff.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right. Well, I got reminded by our writer, Allison, and our producer, Molly, as A fun news update for the Parley overpass, which was featured, and I talked about it in episode 250, look who's Passing, which later became an MFM animated Claire, the bossy deer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it was all about that. They built this overpass so that animals could basically not be in the road anymore. And Utah State University, because it happened in Utah, the Division of Wildlife Resources and Transportation, I guess, got.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Love them, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Love their work.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Love their work.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, those bitches are so real.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I caught it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But basically, the overpass is going so good. 77% reduction in wildlife vehicle collisions.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A $15 million cost benefit over the bridge's lifetime. And. And their favorite finding is moose. Successfully crossed 100% of the time. You never missed a moose.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cause a moose will kill you if you fucking hit it with your car, too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, that's deadly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's not like, yeah. No. Running over a squirrel. Not that I'm condoning that, but, like, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Although they. They can be pretty aggressive.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's be honest.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What if I wanted that acorn? You didn't even ask me. It's my front yard.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. There's a dead squirrel rotting in our backyard, and we're not doing anything about it. Oh, I have a lot of, like, animal stories from my backyard.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it sounds like a palatial, gorgeous, tropical jungle. It's not, but a lot happens in there. Should we do our network highlights?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So we have a podcast network, and this holiday season, we'd love for you to listen to some podcasts on it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. So while we have you here, just a quick reminder. Our newest podcast, Brief Recess, a legal podcast with Michael Foot and Melissa Malbranche, which, by the way, such a delightful. You want to talk about parasocial relationship. I just want to hang out and talk to those guys or listen to them talking all day long. Seriously, if you haven't listened to it, it kind of has a little bit of everything. They're addressing these horrifying things that are happening in our world right now, but.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In a lighthearted way, but also. But also with call to action.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But a call to action. But then slay boots down all the things you want, but just to remind you, they are on YouTube because it is a podcast, but it's a podcast as well. So every single episode comes out on video. You can watch Michael and Melissa as well as listen to them. So please go over to their YouTube page, YouTube.comief recess, and, like, subscribe, interact, do all the things that let people know that you like something but also enjoy a video podcast. Yeah, it's the future.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're so young and with it. And if you're craving more content over the holidays, now is the time to join the fan [e-mail] you'll get every episode of my favorite Murder ad free, plus exclusive audio and video. So much video content and more.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And if that doesn't satisfy you, then follow my favorite murder on instagram and on TikTok. We're on TikTok too. And make sure you don't miss any of our clips or our polls or our special announcements and all the other things that we have over there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We've been blowing up social media lately because Shannon, our social media manager, has been just fucking working her butt off and killing it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Shanna McAnally.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. Please, please follow us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's a legend.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And for our last minute holiday shoppers, don't worry, we've got you. The Exactly Right store has easy gift options that don't require express shipping. Head to exactlyrightstore.com to shop gift cards or sign up for the fan cult for someone you [e-mail] what? Great gift.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's a really good gift and you can get subscriptions for three, six or 12 months, depending on how much you like the person you're buying it for.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And like, how long are you gonna be in my life? I don't know. So let's just try three months.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, let' and see how you do. How I decide. You do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, also, it's time for another December donation.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I like this part.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is very fun. Every December, we like to spend the month giving to groups, doing life changing work here in the United States and of course around the world.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So Today we're donating $10,000 to World Central Kitchen. Led by Chef Jose Andres, they provide meals to communities in crisis, getting food to people quickly after natural disasters, conflicts and humanitarian emergencies.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Their mission is to the power of food to heal, support and rebuild communities when they need it the most.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In 2024, World Central Kitchen supported families impacted by conflict and disasters in 20 countries, providing over 109 million meals. So if you'd like to join us in supporting their work, head to WCK.org.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And if donating isn't your thing right now, you can also explore volunteer [e-mail] volunteer so yay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

December donations. Gifts come and go, but our favorite memories stay forever.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This holiday season, you can give your loved ones the gift of their best moments with Aura Frames.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Aura Frames turns your photos into a meaningful gift perfect for family or friends.

[Karen Kilgariff]

With the Aura app, it's easy to add as many photos or short videos as you want. Just connect to Wi Fi and they'll appear instantly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love my Aura frame. I've given so many away, but the one I have every year comes out at a big family holiday party. And it's years and years of holiday memories that you've already uploaded to the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, like chronologically from like when I'm two to when I'm seven to then.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When you were a goth in high school and like brat. But like there it is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're all just waiting for your mother or father or whoever just to croon over.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So it's not just a frame, it's actually like memories. That's like, come on, that's the best gift.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's beautiful. Don't wait. Win the holidays now with Aura Frames.

[Georgia Hardstark]

For a limited time, save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off ORA's best selling Carver Matte frames named number one by Wirecutter by using promo COD MFM at checkout.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's a U R A frames.com, promo code MFM.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This deal is exclusive to listeners and frames sell out fast, so order yours now to get in time for the holidays.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Family stories don't always get passed down. Even the ones that matter most.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's why Storyworth Memoirs is an important gift for loved ones this holiday season.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What's great about Storyworth is that even though they've been around for years, they're still innovating. This year they added a bunch of new features to make storytelling even easier with personalized questions and magic editor. What's not changing? Customers love for Story Worth. They've printed over a million books and preserved 35 million family stories since their founding 13 years ago.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They have over 48,000 five star reviews on Trust Pilot, Wirecutter, the Strategist, CNN, Fox News, and more. Agree Story Worth is the perfect gift for people you love most.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It really is such a good gift because we all want to know our family stories, the important ones, the loved ones for years to come. And you can't just just ask them the question. You're gonna get it wrong. You're gonna forget. You have to like get it down. And Storyworth does it, but in a really beautiful layout and a really beautiful way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, they give you these prompts that make it really easy for you to interview your family. Yeah, they like ask the questions so that the story comes out really easily.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

We're a multi cat household and I am always so worried about the house smelling like multiple cats live there. So every time I walk in the door I take a deep breath and I don't smell cat litter because Pretty Litter actually works.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

Science does more. Find the right [e-mail] iheart Goodbye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right, well, now it is a solo show. Time for you to do your Christmas thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. And this story is just so into the holiday spirit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, it's not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But it's good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it's fun and I'm excited to tell you about it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But you're gonna know about it because this is a story that if you were alive and at least semi conscious during the 90s, you vividly remember this story. It was a huge media sensation, the way only 90s media could do. Tactless and vulgar and in your fucking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Face constantly when they banned smoking.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. Now we know what was important to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You back to tell a whole story about. I just remember being like, it's never gonna work, right? No one's ever gonna do this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Smoking or non in Cocos, you have to Coco's at 2am we used to smoke in Denny's. That's the new question of how old are you? No. Have you ever had a cigarette in Denny's?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So it's January 6th, 1994, and it will be the country's most infamous January 6th for the next 17 years.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hmm. Then there will be one that you can't beat.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. We're at the Cobo arena in Detroit, Michigan, a day before the U.S. figure Skating Championships. And we all know what's about to happen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, we do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is the story of Nancy Kerrigan and Tonya Harding.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, God, this is crazy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was such a wild, like, story. It was huge. And it was on the COVID of, like, every magazine. People wouldn't shut up about it. Yeah, it was one of the biggest fucking stories of the 90s.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So, so good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If you don't know about it yet, you should. The main sources for the story are an essay in the Believer by Sarah Marshall. And she actually hosts a podcast yout're Wrong about, which is super good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah, that's a good podcast.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And the ESPN 30 for 30 docum called the Price of Gold.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Remember when I called it 30 by 30 and everyone got mad?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No one got mad.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I just love how often I've done that. We're just like, you know, on 30 by 30, people are like, it's 30 for 30. Just like, we're like. We did a whole thank you of when we were in People magazine and, like, we shared a page with some band and I said the name wrong. Oh, yeah. People are like, it's actually Bandit Foot. Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My favorite murder. We're gonna get it wrong.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Essentially that's right. All right, so we all know this part. I think there's some people that weren't born for like, 10 years when this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also just, like lately, with the way things are going, remind us of the good times. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I was thinking about it, and it's like, there's a possibility, a lot of listeners who hadn't been born yet. But is it possible that some listeners. Parents hadn't been born yet?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ugh. Let's not talk about that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. Babies having babies. All right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

These babies.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So Nancy Kerrigan is practicing her routine for the U.S. championships. Nancy, along with several other American skaters, most notably Tonya Harding, is vying for a spot on the Olympic team. She'll need to place first at this championship or maybe second in order to go. So it's a big deal now. Nancy's America's sweetheart in the only way Olympic hopefuls can be like. It's just such a thing that we put on them of like, we need you to be perfect and represent our country exactly how we want you to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Seems like a lot of pressure. It's a lot of pressure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And also, especially in ice skating, I think there's not a lot of people that can do it unless they have money.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. So Nancy is pretty and elegant, and she's talented but humble and is the quintessential ice princess that the public and ice skating judges root for. So she is that quintessential beautiful ice skater. A camera crew is in the rink filming her practice. When she finishes, Nancy walks off the ice and disappears through a black curtain to walk through a hallway to the locker rooms. Her coaches, Evie and Mary Scott Vold, who are married, are nearby, finishing up a conversation with some friends. And then they're gonna follow Nancy out to the locker rooms. But before they can do that, they hear a blood curdling shriek coming from the hallway. They run through the curtain to see Nancy crumpled in a heap on the ground. I mean, I'll never forget at this video, I'll never forget the sound of her voice. Yeah. She's gripping her knee and sobbing. And the camera crew runs out, too. They start rolling. And the video of Nancy on the floor in her pretty white costume bawling will become infamous. Particularly that she's yelling over and over again, desperately asking, why? Why? Why? I'll never forget it. Yeah, it was just why?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Why would anything bad happen to me?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is that how you take it? Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, here's the thing. As you were saying that, and I've Never thought about this before. I'm like, well, of course. Cause it's the Olympics and there's camera crews everywhere. But it is so, like, weirdly perfect, the idea that they did this there, where everything, even back then, would be recorded and found out. It's such a crazy plan.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's really stupid. It's a stupid plan and it falls apart quickly. But it's funny that. So we all have preconceived notion of this story. Nancy is the victim, but we don't like her for whatever reason. Tanya, you know, you're on her side for some reason, even though she's very unlikable in a lot of ways. And it's really hard to root for her, especially, like, in her own interviews.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But, you know, it's been shaped by the media, our view.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And also, we've all been raised to hate women so much that we can figure out a way to hate any woman. You don't have to cheat. You can be the victim. You could be the perpetrator. You could be whatever. And that's how we do it to women. Whereas, like, there'll be some dude standing there and you're just like, I don't know, he's fine. You're like, I hate her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't like the way she was crying, being hit in the fucking knee.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I didn't like the way she was wailing in pain. That bothers me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It stuck up the way she was wailing in pain. So, yeah. So it's fucked up. And she's just purely an innocent victim. She won't give a lot of interviews about this. She just tries to move on with her life. So we kind of.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can you imagine how many times they've.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Asked her of it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just like, for 50 years.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it wasn't 50 years, though. No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It feels like it, though. 30.

[Georgia Hardstark]

30. So it comes out that a large unknown man in a leather jacket has just snuck up out of nowhere and whacked her one time in the leg with a long metal object. And Evie Scotfold, the husband in the Husband and Wife Coach Team that coaches Nancy, looks up to see this man crashing through a locked glass door of the arena. Oh, like, it's locked. So have you seen the movie? I. Tonya, I have, but I don't remember this part. He. I don't know if this actually happens, but in the movie, he smashes his forehead through the glass because the door is, like, bolted shut or locked shut. I don't know if that happened, but somehow he smashes the window and bolts out the. So, first of all, not subtle, dude, you planned this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sir?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Plan an exit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You plan an exit that's not chained and locked, right? And also, it's the Olympics, so you're not gonna have the easiest ins and outs around the practice area, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

So everyone looks for him, but no one can find him. And they try to chase him, but they lose him. But still, Evie will wind up saying to his wife Mary that night. And it surprises her that he suspects Nancy's main competitor, Tonya Harding, has something to do with the attack. Oh, immediately. Immediately. Tanya and Nancy are both 24 years old, and they both come from working class backgrounds on opposite sides of the country. So Nancy is born in 1969 and grows up in Stoneham, Massachusetts. Her dad, Daniel, is a welder, and her mom, Brenda, is a stay at home mom. And Brenda is legally blind, having lost most of her vision from a virus she got when Nancy was a baby.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So Nancy has two brothers who play hockey. And while the family's not at all wealthy, once Nancy shows an aptitude for figure skating around the time she's 8 years old. They put everything into it. And as you said, professional ice skating is not fucking cheap. It's almost like horseback riding to me, where it's just like, there's so many things you have to buy. You have to buy ice time, like spend money to be on the ice, coaching, costumes, all of that shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Those skates we bought me and Laura bought Nora. Cause Nora got into ice skating. It was really cute. She was pretty good at it. But we bought her for Christmas the most beautiful pair of ice skates. And she grew out of them within like nine months. Like she needed another pair where I was like, how much were they? I can't remember. I mean, but it was like that kind of thing where you're just like, oh, yeah, they're kids, right? And you have to do that over and over their whole career.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My kid would sit at home.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nancy's dad, at times works three jobs to afford Nancy's coaching costumes and ice time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Why didn't they tell this story when it happened? Now I feel so guilty. No, I thought she was rich.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She was not rich.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I just assumed she just.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know what she was rich in. Which I think a lot of people don't give enough credit for is having a stable family. And that's a privilege in itself. And, you know, she had that, and that's great and good for her. And it doesn't even seem like there was an Actual rivalry between Tonya and Nancy. It was just that Nancy was her biggest competition. So Nancy had nothing to fucking do with this, really. Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's a very meaningful thing about the family thing. That's very true. Cause it was almost like, we're all gonna pitch in and make this happen.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. Like, they all traveled together to her competitions, even her brothers. She stayed in the same hotel room with her par. You know, it's just like that. I don't want to stay in a hotel room with my parents.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I never have.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's not fun at all.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. And at one point, her dad takes a job driving the Zamboni at the rink in exchange for Nancy's ice time. So they're dedicated. They don't have tremendous means, but it's clearly a very loving and very stable household.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I feel so guilty.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Good. That's what I'm trying to do. On the other side of the country, in Portland, Oregon, which. It's like rural Portland, Oregon. This is not like Portland now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's not. Keep Portland weird Portland.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. It's like you own a gun and you go hunting Portland. You know? And so there. Tonya Harding is born into tougher circumstances. Tonya's dad, Albert, works odd jobs and suffers from various health problems which stop him from being able to work at times. Her mother, Levana, played by Allison Janney, epically. I mean, unbelievable. So incredibly good in I. Tonya, that is. It's uncomfortable.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She works as a waitress, and the family's home and financial situation is chaotic.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then, can I just say, like, some 30 years later, we're just now starting to learn about how chaos and poverty in childhood can lead to subsequent cognitive and social development issues, impair the development of executive function in children. It changes the child's brain structure, even, which can lead to anxiety and difficulties with social skills, mental health issues, et cetera. Look it up and go to therapy, everyone. But. And it's not an excuse. It's just kind of to say where her head was, you know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So when Tanya's three years old, a new mall opens up nearby. And I want to say the name of it. Cause I love it. It's the Clackamas Town Center. I don't know why. Fucking love that word.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I've been there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Clackamas.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They have an ice skating rink right in it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's what I was gonna say.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry I keep jumping you. I'm not trying to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know this story probably better than I do. It has a skating rink right in the Very center of it. And somehow Levana finds the money to get Tonya skating lessons. And it's clear from the very beginning that she is a supremely talented skater and athlete from 3 years old.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, I mean, that's the thing. Cause Nora was good at it, too. She was at a friend's birthday party at the Charles Schulz Snoopy ice rink.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And someone was like, santa Rosa. Hey.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And they're just like, she's very good at this and likes it a lot. So my sister's like, I mean, it's really fun, but the dedication. You have to sit in the most freezing room and just watch your kids spin in circles.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I didn't even think about it for the parents where it's just like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Especially California parents who are just like, I don't know, isn't it hot outside? Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're not in, like, a lawn chair with a beer. It's like the worst possible. Fuck that. Like Nancy's parents, Levana does as much as she can to fund Tonya's skating, but it's harder for her. And she also puts a lot of pressure on Tonya. As we see in the movie, most people seem to come to the conclusion that ice skating will be Tanya only shot at a more comfortable life than the one she was born into. It's like this or nothing. And it seems like they share that with her. This growing child. Yes, that. That's. This is it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You better get this done for us.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right? And look how fucking hard your mom is working to make it happen. Just a lot of fucking pressure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Win, win.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You have to win. Or what am I spending my money on?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right? We're all sacrificing for you. Exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Exactly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Get out there now. Have fun with it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're not smiling enough.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do your dance. To wanna be starting something. I mean, Jesus Christ, what we do to children. This country is so crazy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not me. Well, we did it to Nora a little bit. She got second place one time, so. I know it was really exciting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I mean the pressure part. I don't think we're.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thankfully, that's the one benefit, usually, of not being. Not being the people that have all those things.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because you get to sidestep a lot of that stuff.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think my parents were like, just get passing grades. And if you don't, that's okay, too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, just go. Just go.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And if you don't, just graduate high school. And they did.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And you did. You gave them everything they asked for and more.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. No pressure. Okay, so Even in real time. It's understood by Tanya's coaches and skating companions that her circumstances are extremely difficult and very different from the typical figure skating. When she's 11, her friend witnesses Levana hitting Tonya repeatedly in the rinks bathroom with a hairbrush, just being abusive. The friend is shocked and horrified by this and tells the coach that she wants to report Tanya's mom to CPS. It's a badass little 11 year old. And the coach says that it would end Tonya's skating career forever if they reported her. Which is so sad. Cause it's like maybe it would have made you have a better life even though skating isn't involved in it anymore. You know what I mean? It's not that that helps.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And also, how much of the skating was her choice at that point?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. Yeah. A few years later, this friend actually winds up making like a little documentary about Tonya. By then, Tonya's 15 and she very frankly talks about her difficult home life. Tanya's mother participates in the documentary and she's wearing a fur coat with a green parrot perched on her shoulder, just like in the movie. Later, Tonya will also say that she as a teenager by several people in her life. And it does seem like there could have been a lack of protection in the environment she grew up in. It doesn't. It's so hard because you can't believe everything this woman says. But there are definitely parts of it that are true and you have to believe.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So you know she's an unreliable narrator.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, of course.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But she's not lying about everything.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No. And also, if you have the kind of mom that'll beat you with a brush in a bathroom in front of people, then there isn't a lot of protection going on. It's easy to say this is definitely not happening. Could it be worse at home?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Of course. Yeah. So the part of ice skating that most appeals to Tanya is the athleticism. And we should talk about what she looked like for people who don't know. Like, she was just so quintessentially 90s.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She looked like she burned her eyeliner with a match to get it moving on her eye. She had a very strong. But she was like a red. But she had a very strong eye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But she'd also bleach her hair like 90s blonde.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And like the 90s was kind of still the 80s when it came to style. So think of that, like big poofy bangs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Poofy, frizzy big hair.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. A little crimped and, you know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, but then she had kind. She looked like an Irish girl to me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, she definitely looked like the photo that you posted of yourself in high school. Like, you would have been friends with her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, absolutely.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She would have been one of Karen's, like, smoking in the girl's bathroom. Friends.

[Karen Kilgariff]

My mama. Beautiful. I don't know if you should go to Tanya's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Exactly, exactly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She definitely looks like she smelled like those menthol cigarettes we were talking about.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally like a Kelly Bundy type. So she loves the athleticism of it. She can do the grace and the artistry, blah, blah, blah. But that's not what comes naturally to her. What comes naturally. What she wants to do is land the most difficult tricks possible. She kind of is a badass. Not kind of. She's a badass in the sway of like, I, if I'm gonna do this, I to want. I wanna be the fucking best at it. And I wanna do it, you know, in a way that no one else can.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I know everyone out there doesn't think I can do it, so I'm gonna fucking show them. And then some. So no one can deny it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Such good revenge.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, it's the best. Like, that's the best motivation is when someone's like, oh, you don't think I can do that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, let me go ahead.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I'm already brave enough to be able to ice skate, which I like. I was watching hockey the other day and I'm just like, how are they doing this?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I have ice skated maybe once or twice in my life. And I. And I.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's truly witchcraft. And then she's like, I'm not scared. Not only not to ice skate, but, like, of anything. So here, I'll just do the thing that makes people cheer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right? And so the trick she wants to land to prove herself to everyone takes a huge amount of strength and power. And so as Tonya progresses on the ice skating circuit, this athleticism and power becomes her calling card. So remember back then, they used to always make fun of how big her thighs were. Like, that was a big, big fucking joke. Late night joke back then is how because ice skaters are so slim and long and lank, but they also have to be so fucking strong to lift their bodies off of the fucking ice and twirl. Like, that takes so much strength, but also don't look like it. It's just this, like, horrible thing that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We do to women of, here's the rules now. You also have to go backwards and in high heels. Type of stuff.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And so while she's known for these athletic moves and she's willing to try things that other ice skaters won't, Nancy becomes known for her grace and her spins and her elegant lines. So they're very different, but they are competitors directly. And it also seems like the judges are harder on Tanya because she doesn't quite fit that elegant mold of what a figure skater's supposed to be. There's a lot of it's so fun. Like the amount of the stuff I've been doing researching this makes me like, angry. There's a lot of wiggle room and subjectivity in scoring ice skating. And it's fair to say that some of that subjectivity comes into play when the judges look at Tonya, for instance. She's criticized by a judge for her costume that she made herself because she can't afford the $5,000 one time, you know, competition outfit. It's that sort of thing. But she also does seem like a kind of rebel where she'll pick music. She's like, she ice skated's a wild thing. And just like rock and roll, she'll do. And like, they don't fucking like that. And so the scores are not technical completely. They're also just completely subjective.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I think there was a time where we all believed it was objective and so fair and all about scoring or whatever. And then it's like. And then if you tracked in any way the Williams sisters coming into tennis and the way there was always a problem and it was always a thing and just like, yeah, there's a lot of people in place there that are making. That are in charge of decision making and in charge of like the culture.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The agreed upon culture.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like the deck is stacked against you. Yeah. I mean, it's fucked up. And so while Tanya has to scrap. So while Tanya has to scrap, scray up, scray up. And so while Tanya has to scrap for everything she gets. People just seem to want to give Nancy things. Vera Wang starts designing her costumes. Cause she's such a fan. She gets lucrative endorsement deals. I totally remember the Campbell's Soup commercial. Do you?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, when she was like, she's actually on the ice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, she's like sipping, closing her eyes and sipping some chicken noodle soup off the ice. Cause she's cold, you know, it's cold on the ice and she just closes her eyes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, she really did look like any girl that would be in Seventeen magazine.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So it was like she had it all kind of there anyway. And I Just remember her high pony.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. The curly hair, the high pony. She was really pretty. And I think that they also liked that she wasn't. It's such a contradiction. They liked that she wasn't this wealthy, you know, Wasp who was like a princess. They liked that she was from lower. But not Tanya's. You know what I mean? Like you can do that, but you can't do it this way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You can be from the lower classes, but you have to be pretty while you do it right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And humble.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You have to be thin.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thin. And you have to be humble about it. That's true. And think that you are owed anything. Yeah. It's just such a contradiction. She gets endorsements from Reebok. So when people tell this story, there's always this focus on Nancy being the beautiful ice princess and Tanya being the more ugly duckling with bad costumes and bad hair. It does seem like they're compared a lot. They're kind of each other's biggest competitors. But it doesn't seem like they have any animosity towards each other. And Nancy's doing nothing to antagonize Tonya. There's that story's overblown that they have like a feud. Cause it's not even. So. So when Tanya's 15 years old, she meets a 17 year old mustachioed dude named Jeff Gillooly. He's played by Sebastian Stan.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. A classic.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Classic. And they fall in love. It's her first ever boyfriend. Cause she's. All she does is skate.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. You know, and get yelled at by her mother.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. And she had dropped out of high school so she could skate. Like there's just nothing else in her. So she meets this older guy and he has a car and he's a job. And she's like smitten completely by him immediately.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also when you're 15. Sorry to interrupt. But when you're 15, doesn't it feel like that's when you fall in love the hardest of your whole life?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like you kind of truly lose your mind.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The hormones, the like everything that is. Oh God, no. It's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's bad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so bad. It's like soul crushing. Cause you think it's the most important thing and it is the most important thing in the world at that moment.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But it's the most important thing that you're doing with Jeff Gillooly. So. And not. No one can convince you otherwise. Right? Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so hard to be a teenager.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It is. It's the Worst.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, it's so bad. You could not pay me to be a fucking teenager again.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God. No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The two move in together when Tonya's just 17 years old. And the way she tells the story, she was pretty much just desperate to get out of her mom's house, and this kind of seemed like the only way. Yeah. They get married in 1990, when Tanya's 20 years old, and for a while, Jeff makes enough money to support them while Tanya keeps skating and they're hoping she'll get those endorsement deals.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Jeff is abusive, though, allegedly, which Tonya will later discuss. The relationship will always be rocky and on and off and, like, basically everything in Tonya's life, pretty unstable. The way Tonya describes it, Jeff was, quote, always saying the right things to get me back, and I'd be stupid enough to go back and get beat up again. And they show this in I, Tonya. And it's just.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's just.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it's so dark.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But also, she's not stupid. This is her life. Like, this is the way. If that's been the pattern in your life, you continue that pattern. Yeah, that's not a choice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She would say, my mom loved me and she hit me. He said he loved me and he hit me. That's what you learned. It's really sad, and there's not really any. She doesn't see any other options in her life. It's really fucking sad. Okay. So, yeah, it does seem like she kind of internalizes this abuse and is kind of a victim, blaming herself for. So it's not an excuse for her behavior, everything that happens to her, but it is context, which I think is important. And so while all this is going on, Nancy's living the way she always has, closely supported by her family, stayed in the same hotel room as her parents at competitions. She lives with them. And she often describes her mother as her best friend, which, like, what a fucking privilege to have that in your life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you want to know one of my earliest jokes?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was based on something some famous person had said and were like, my mother's my best friend. And I said, mom, you're my best friend. And my mom went, well, you're not my best friend. Which literally, she did.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I couldn't see that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just like, God damn it. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's meant it in, like, a tough love way, like, I'm your mother, not your friend.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She meant it like, no one's best friend should be their mother. That's weird. Don't act like that. You don't get another best friend.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally. Family stories don't always get passed down, even the ones that matter most.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

They have over 48,000 five star reviews on Trustpilot, Wirecutter, the Strategist, CNN, Fox News, and more. Agree Storyworth is the perfect gift for people you love most.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It really is such a good gift because we all to know our family stories, the important ones, the loved ones for years to come. And you can't just ask them the question. You're going to get it wrong. You're going to forget. You have to like get it down. And Storyworth does it, but in a really beautiful layout in a really beautiful way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, they give you these prompts that make it really easy for you to interview your family. Yeah, they like ask the questions so that the story comes out really easily.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Give your loved ones a unique keepsake you'll all cherish for years.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Story Worth Memoir Memoirs right now save $10 or more during their holiday sale when you go to storyworth.com mfm that's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Storyworth.Com mfm to save $10 or more on your order.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

Science does more. Find the right [e-mail] iheart goodbye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our holiday to do lists can be insane. Cooking, shopping and then meeting up with people you haven't seen since sophomore year.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No matter what your plans are, you can keep your face looking fresh all day with Jones Road this holiday season.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

You probably already know Jones Road for their miracle bomb and now they've launched their exclusive Holiday collection. It's their most giftable and exclusive set.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yet and all five limited edition kits are trios that include new shades, products and holiday packaging.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Whether you're gifting or getting ready for holiday parties, these curated sets take the guesswork out of your makeup routine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Every formula is packed with skin loving ingredients that nourish your skin and leave you looking naturally fresh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

These kits won't be here for long though, and once they're gone, they're gone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And as a treat for our listeners, you'll get a free cool gloss on your first purchase. When you use code MFM at checkout.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just head to Jonesroadbeauty.com and use code MFM at checkout. Goodbye A sleek professional website makes you look very put together even when you're wearing sweatpants and eating cereal out of a mug.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that's where Squarespace comes in.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Squarespace gives you everything you need to offer your services and get paid all in one place.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

You'll get paid on time with professional on brand invoices and online payments. Plus streamline your workflow with built in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools and.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Get discovered faster with Squarespace's built in SEO tools. With meta descriptions and auto generated sitemaps, you'll rank higher in search results globally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Go to squarespace.com murder for a free trial and when you're ready to use offer code MURDER to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's squarespace.com murder codemurder. Goodbye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So during the year after her marriage to Jeff, Tonya's doing her best skating of her life. It's 1991 and Tonya becomes the first American woman to land a triple axel in competition at the United States Championship. Which is fucking huge. The triple axel has been this white whale for female skaters, figure skaters, because it involves launching yourself while facing forward, rotating three and a half times and then landing facing backwards. And it takes a huge amount of strength to get the necessary height to stay up there that long. I mean it is like not for the faint of heart. People don't even try it because you will be hurt from doing it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You'll eat ice as they say.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Exactly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just kidding.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know they don't say sounds right up until Now, a Japanese skater named Midori Ito has been the only woman in the world to execute it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Until Tanya, as you said that, I knew. I've heard of Midori Ito. And I'm like, how much ice skating did I. Yeah, I guess it was just the Olympics.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They were big.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it was really big. And it was like in People magazine and stuff.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Exactly. Like, we were obsessed with the. I guess our children. Still obsessed with the Olympics. I don't know. I don't either, but we fucking were.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's call the child hotline and see.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are there any children?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Guys, what's it like? Roblox.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is also where her athleticism and her thighs and her muscle came into play. Like, you can't be a waif and pull off something that no one else can do in this sport.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know what I mean? But they don't. They won't. Like, people don't think that it's an athletic sport. They forget that ice skating is athletic. And they want a pretty waify.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Everything's supposed to be a goddamn beauty contest when women are participating that all of that comes in and you have to suddenly talk about that all the time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right? Yeah. It's just a whole thing. It's because of her strength. So fuck you to everyone back then. Stand by that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Compared to 1994, it's just so telling. It's like she was clearly groundbreaking. You have to look different to do something different. Like, obviously, you need the muscles to get up there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And it's like she could try to beat Nancy at her own game, but that wasn't her style. And the reason she was one of the best in the world is because she had her own style and she was, you know, doing new, exciting things. It's kind of almost like they shouldn't have been in competition with each other. Cause they were both doing something completely different.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, but they were.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So Tonya's triple axel wins her the United States Championship and sends her to the 1992 Elizabeth in Albertville, France. You love it there. And Nancy also competes there. But between 1991 and 1992, Tanya seems to lose the ability to land that triple axel. She falters in some competitions, and it seems like her life is just so chaotic. I can't imagine she's getting a lot of sleep, you know, and that takes practice all day. If you want, like, for the Olympics, you don't have another life outside of that. I can't imagine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. And also, I mean, I bet you the way people do it now, where it's like you're eating certain things, training certain times.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All you're doing. She's smoking cigarettes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, she's like. She finds a Camaro somewhere to lean on and just smokes that cig.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Drinking beer, smoking cigarettes. Hanging out with your fucking husband, who, like, you have this tumultuous relationship with. It's just not conducive to winning an Olympic fucking medal.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Probably not, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, I'm just podcasting and I'm fucking exhausted from, like, sleeping eight hours last night.

[Karen Kilgariff]

My muscles. I rotted all weekend, and my muscles are killing me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Same. It hurts to be this good at something.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I have big thighs, and still I can't nail the triple axle.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But your lines are amazing. Your grace and lines and cheekbones are giving. It's the hand. There you go. This is why I did tap dance, not ballet. I wanted to clop all over the place and make as much fucking noise as possible.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's. That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's why.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, I'll pay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My mom had to make me stop tap dancing down the grocery store aisles. Stop tap dancing. That's what you did too, right? Or your mom would grab you and.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Say, yeah, she would just grab me by the neck and be like, what do we need to do?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't wander off.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Which meant stop having temper tantrums everywhere you go.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I would just. You'd always know where I was. Cause I was clopping down a fucking. I didn't get that. After Lawful change. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're creating so much work for the editors in this episode.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're showing them what it's like to be Tonya Harding and how chaotic life can be.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's really hard, and we understand it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. But you know what? Leave it all in. We stand by our words. We're leaving it all in.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nothing's getting edited. Yay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yay, everyone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Go on vacation.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, stop it. At the Olympics, Tanya tries and fails to land the jump, which gotta suck. And it's just. You can see. That's the other thing, too, about her skating. You can see when she wins and loses in a way I don't think you're supposed to, like, show.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But in a really, like, cool, powerful, prideful way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's awesome. Like, she's cheering along with everyone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's leaving it all on the field.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Exactly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is that the one when she couldn't land it where she had the black velvet outfit on?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think so.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I feel like I watched one of these real time, and it was hard to watch. Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Midori Ito lands her. And in the end, Christy Yamaguchi still takes home the gold for America. Northern California girl Midori Ito takes silver for Japan, and Nancy gets the bronze. And Tanya's in fourth place. This would potentially be where Tonya and Nancy's Olympic stories are over. They're 22 years old, and the next time the Olympics roll around, they'd basically. They'd be 26. They'd basically aged out for Olympic figure skaters. So that would, like, fourth place. You're done. But I mean, this is so fateful. Fortuitous. They get a once in a lifetime break because prior to 1994, the summer and Winter Olympics happened in the same year. After the 1992 Games, the decision is made to stagger them. And it's decided that there will be another Winter Olympics in 1994, and then the Summer Olympics in 90. So it can be every four years. So they just, like, double up on winter and they get to go back to the fucking Olympics.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That is so weird.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I feel like I didn't know that as a detail of this story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I didn't know that either, but I'm not as into ice skating as you are. I think Jewish people don't really. We don't ice skate. Why would we?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't think I. I'm into it as much as, like, I'm more of a. It was such a pulp culture situation.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We had Dorothy Hamill, Peggy Fleming. Like, we knew their names, you know, always. So this gives all the winter athletes the rare opportunity to compete in another set of Olympic Games just two years later.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Lucky.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So you thought you were done. You practiced for four years to get. Or you'd practice so hard to get there. And now it's like, okay, guess what you're doing for the next two years?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Starting all over again. Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So cut to two years later. Let's just.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, let's just get there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's just go. 1994. Tanya and Nancy are back again, vying for spots on the next Olympic team. So they still have to compete again to even be on the team. In order to qualify for the Olympics, the skaters will need to first compete at the U.S. championships. Do you want to know what it's called?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Officially. Legs. U.S. figure Skating Championships.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But, Elle, apostrophe. Legs. Legs. For those of you who are very young, that's the pantyhose brand.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Pantyhose that used to come in plastic eggs.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like Easter eggs, but pantyhose.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was Spelled legs, but like, legs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Legs, apostrophe E ggs. And it had its own display where all of the eggs sat on individual little holders.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Before there was, like, you know, anime toys in little Bubble, there was fucking pantyhose. And we made our moms give us the fucking container when they were done with them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Every time legs. Like, all our Barbie shoes were in there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's such a brilliant way to be like, do you want these pantyhose that all look like. Like this, or do you want some in eggs?

[Georgia Hardstark]

You want them in eggs?

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're legs.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Why don't we put more stuff in eggs?

[Karen Kilgariff]

We got to start.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Why is it stopped? Kinder eggs. There's another one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Kinder eggs. Exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Good job. Okay, so in this. During this time two years, Nancy has gotten additional endorsements, and Tonya has pretty much gotten nothing. In 1993, she divorces Jeff. But the way Tonya tells it, and this is fucked up, and it seems true, US figure skating authorities urge her to get back together with him so that she can portray of stability and traditionalism. Yeah, they're like, you can't be a divorced ice skater. Go back to your abusive husband, Otherwise you're not gonna win. The thing that you've been devoting your entire fucking life to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That makes me think, do you think they flipped out when she married him in the first place? Cause she was only 20.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I'm sure you've seen the videos. He just, like, came with her to all the shows. He kind of had looked a little sketch with the mustache.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it's certainly within the realm of possibility that they said that for such an image focused sport, because only in 2004 were women allowed to compete in pants like the leggings. They couldn't wear leggings. They had to wear fucking legs, legs, legs. A lot of them still won't wear them for fear of getting dinged by the judges because costume's part of your score. And so they just don't fucking like the color or the cut. It's a personal preference, not a fucking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's very dance moms coded. Like, we're just always gonna be haunted by these people that are behind a table, you know, waiting to put up a number. And it's like, those are the they in your mind, where it's like, they say you shouldn't do it that way. It's like, who fucking cares?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's dance bombs. And it's pageants, child pageants, which is gross. So gross. Yeah, okay. We're just insulting the entire. Or ice skating.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You don't like anything. Yeah, also ice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck ice.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I meant for the drink, but can we leave?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck ice.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, yeah, for sure, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

You like crushed or do you like cubes? Okay, stop it. That brings us back to Your favorite day. January 6th. Always. 1994. In the wake of the attack, Nancy had suffered. So they were aiming for her knee, but they missed and she suffered a severe bone bruise and the lower right thigh was what ended up. But they did purposely go for her standing leg. So when she did twirls, she did it on the leg that they hit. Cause she could have kept going maybe if she didn't have to, like, favor that leg, but. So they purposely used her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Her weight bearing leg.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it was hit with a telescopic baton. So like a police baton?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Jeez.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Crap. Like whapping. I mean.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

At the same time. So traumatized.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Why?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Why? And then her dad picks her up and carries her into the locker room.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He had to take a fourth job. Jesus Christ. This is so much worse than I even understood it to be.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know. But her knee is not broken, which is a miracle. So she can't skate in the U.S. championships, which will determine who's gonna go to the Olympics. So without Nancy competing, Tanya places first. Oh, and a baby. Michelle Kwan. 13 at the time. And I mean, she looks like a little baby.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She places second. So the 13. I know. Jesus. So the two of them are technically who are supposed to go represent the US at the Olympics. The committee decides to bump Michelle Kwan. They say to her, look, you're 13, you have other chances. Nancy does. How do you feel about us, like, switching you guys out? Nancy couldn't compete, and Michelle fucking Kwan said, okay, like, how graceful is that of her? And like, fucking cool.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Holy shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

As a 13 year old, you're like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, fuck it. Fuck you, Judge, get the judges over here. Do you know how hard this was? Fuck you. Fuck you. I am in seventh grade. You're cool. Fuck you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God, What a generous thing she did.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally. I mean, even if she didn't want to, it's like amazing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And like, that had just happened to Nancy. And we cannot tell you how big of a story this was at the time. This was the biggest story in the US and maybe in the world for a while.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm angry about how big it was. So they decided to send Nancy anyway, even though she didn't compete. And so this competition has come to an end. Tanya And Nancy are going to the. But the frenzy to figure out who attacked Nancy heats up. And, I mean, I can't remember if we all knew it was.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We knew.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We knew. Like, who didn't know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think that. Well, they just had to get the proof.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But I feel like what's unfair and really would have been unfair if she wasn't guilty. Tonya just had that look of a girl that, like, you don't want to cross her, and then she finds you in the movie theater parking lot, you know, so then it was clearly all those adults were just acting like, we know what happened. We can't prove it. We're going to continue as if that's what's going on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So shortly after the attack, the COIN TV K O I N in Portland. We know them well. The Portland station receives an anonymous letter claiming that Jeff, Tonya's husband, Tonya, and a team of Tonya's bodyguards were responsible for Nancy's injury. One of the producers at the station knows Tanya personally and calls her up about. And she says, you can look at the letter, but you have to do an interview with me. Like, she fucking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did she write that letter?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. Oh. Oh, no. She's like, you can see it. You can come to the station and see it, but only if you do an interview with me. It's like, kind of like, Got it. All right, girl. So Tanya goes on air on that station to refute the letter, and it's so fucking creepy. Jeff is sitting directly behind the interviewer. And in the interview, you can see him staring at her. And you can. She looks afraid.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And you can kind of see her, you know, look at him a couple times to get the right answer. And she claims that it's only after this interview that she begins to get the inkling that Jeff was really behind the plot. And so this is the big question, is, what did Tonya know and when? And it's debated. There's no total proof either way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hmm.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think we generally assume she had something to do with it from the beginning. Allegedly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. I mean, that's kind of the logical.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But then the idea of that your abusive husband would do this and you didn't know he was gonna do it is so awful.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You can see how that would happen, too. Like, that's what's so hard about the argument is like, you could see him doing it without wanting to burden you, and, like, he's just gonna do this thing that he thinks she might want.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or he's like. He's the man and the provider. And he's like, yeah, I took care of it for you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Tanya got a death threat before the Nancy Kerrigan thing happened. And so that's what they were gonna do initially is just give Nancy a death threat and hope that maybe she doesn't compete. But then it became this thing. So she might have nothing to do with it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hmm.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know, allegedly. Allegedly. Okay. So the station hands over the letter to the FBI, and it's quickly traced back to a friend of the father of one of Jeff's friends, a man named Shawn Eckhart. And so this guy is played by the incredible Paul Walter Hauser.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Mm.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you know who that is?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I think so.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He was the one in Blackbird who played the ser. He's just such an incredible actor, and he's so perfect in Night Tanya. So he had actually worked as Tanya's bodyguard and had given interviews in the wake of the attack. He's just a complete idiot. He also privately tells lots of acquaintances that he was involved in it. He's like. He was bragging about it. He thinks he's like this, you know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like a superhero kind of, or like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A badass guy, and he's just not. Once the FBI gets to Sean, the whole plot is revealed fairly quickly. The FBI agents who interview him said, quote, when Shaun realized he was facing some fairly serious penalties, he folded like a cheap accordion. Shawn signs a statement claiming that four men were involved in the plot and that the idea seemed to come from Jeff, the husband. Jeff asked Shawn to hire a hit team of two other men to carry out the attack. And those two men are named Derek Smith and Shane Stant. And so basically, they travel to Detroit, where Nancy is competing to be in the Olympics and where they hit her. And all of this travel is charged to credit cards under their own name. I mean, when confronted with all the evidence, both men confess to the attack and plead guilty fairly quickly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But over time, the men involved in the plot start changing their stories, saying that Tanya was involved and that she was in charge of the plot. So she kind of turns on Jeff, her now ex husband, and when he finds out, he turns on her too. And they all do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The only real evidence they find against Tonya is some. They find a scrap of paper with information in her handwriting, allegedly about the rink and phone numbers for the rink where Nancy was practicing. Oh, so it just looked really bad.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. That isn't good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And so while all this is going on, Tanya's still preparing for the Olympics. In the meantime, no stress.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Push on through.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Which are scheduled to begin in. What's it called?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Lillehammer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you. Lillehammer. Lillehammer, Norway. And Tanya still practices at the. So Tanya's practicing at this radio in an open mall, and now she's the biggest villain in the US and so as she's practicing and stressing out of the Olympics, she's being watched by every news station in the fucking galaxy and just, like, waiting for her to fall and fail and something wrong to happen so they can report about it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's just crazy. It's open to spectators and to the press. It's a madhouse. Even Diane Sawyer shows up ringside and just hangs out at the edge of the rink asking her questions.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Diane Sawyer went to the Clackamas, Mom. That's hilarious.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's like, one of the most respected journalists of our time, and she had.

[Karen Kilgariff]

To get out there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So this media frenzy follows her fucking everywhere over the course of six weeks leading up to the Olympics. Under questioning, Tonya confesses to learning about the plot after the fact. That's the only thing she ever admits to. And not alerting authorities as soon as she knew, and that's the only thing she's guilty of. She says she was afraid of what Jeff would do if she came forward, which is reasonable given Jeff's track record of admitted. But people to this day doubt whether or not she knew about the plot in advance and whether she helped advance it. But while all this investigation is going on, Tanya hasn't been charged with anything. And the Olympics are approaching. And with Tonya being a US Champion, the Olympic Committee has no solid reason to remove her from the team. Like, they can't. They're hoping she resigns because at this point, she admitted she knew something about the plot. After Tanya then threatens to sue the Olympic Committee. I'll fucking sue you for $10 million.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sue all you motherfuckers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All you motherfuckers. I'm competing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Meanwhile, Nancy's healing up, and she'll be able to compete in the six weeks between the attack and the Games. She has to spend four weeks in physical therapy and then only has two weeks to practice her routine. Actually, in January 1990, this story was so big, it was on the covers of Sports Illustrated, Newsweek, and Time magazine. It's huge. The Winter Olympics in Lillehammer, Norway, begin in February of 1994. And at the Olympics, the whole US team has to practice at the same time. They all get the same ice time, which means Tanya and Nancy will be on the ice together. It's like, are they gonna have a cat fight and scratch it out? It's just so dumb. A massive media frenzy happens, and everyone wants to see what will and happen. In the end, it's all anticlimactic. They don't get into a fight. They don't even talk to each other. Then Nancy has a pretty good outlook on the whole thing. And she kind of just ignores any of the questions. She just won't talk about it. She doesn't want that to be the focus. She's pretty graceful about the whole thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You love her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love her, don't I? Oh, no. I love Nancy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm teen Tanya all the way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hey, Tanya's a fucking badass. I was like, but I'm scared.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, but I don't know. There's something about that thing of, like, she's just a little engine that nobody thought could. And so she's like, I will beat you all into submission 100%. And then it's like, oh, but you're not pretty enough. And it's like, it doesn't matter. I'm gonna do it anyway.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She was like, if I do it exactly the way you want me to, I'm still gonna fail. And so I'm doing it my fucking way and failing on my own terms. And then still fucking winning and still showing you how good I am. I mean, she's so impressive.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also being fourth in, like, an Olympic sport. You might as. I mean, no one can get close to that. No, that's the. It's. There's. People really love to watch tv, myself included, and then just be like, I could do that. That's easy. It's not that big of a deal. It's like, most people can't just go once a round.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. And part of ice skating is making it look eas. They don't want you to have, like, strain on your face or big thighs. Big muscular thighs. They want you to make it look like you're just flying.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cause you're just a little lady.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And Tanya's like, well, fuck you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Tanya's like, I'm gonna do things other people can't do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I wear a lot of black eyeliner while I do. The thing is that she didn't know she was an autumn. And if we had just gotten some brown eyeliner in there, they would have loved her to death.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Absolutely.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She could have been a little redhead.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I think I love them. Okay, so once the competition gets underway, Nancy skates a great short program, while Tanya's performance is rocky I mean, no stress or anything.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When it comes for the long program, when Tanya's name is called, it takes her a long time to get on the ice because her shoelace broke.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah, I remember that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And she has very specific shoes because of the jumps, and so they couldn't find the laces that were long enough for her. She's freaking out. She gets on the ice very last. So stressed. Like, can you imagine? I mean, she says, like, it's not gonna hold me. Like, she knows her shoes are not gonna hold her for her jumps. And she also has, like, a misaligned skate. It's just a mess. And so she fails her first jump, and she begins crying and takes her. Remember, this is the one where she.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I watched all of it. Yeah, I saw it. And also, it's that thing where, when I was watching it, and I think there's no way the judges weren't saying this or, like, the commentators weren't kind of alluding to it, but it's like, how do you. With that right behind you? Oh, yeah, go. And so what. The second her lace was broken, it was like, to me, I could feel. I felt like it was. The pressure was building, building, building like crazy. And the, like, people staring at her, and then it was like, it wasn't the shoelace. You just couldn't. You wanted out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's no coming back from that. And. Yeah, and then that. Everyone just loved the photo of her face looking all like. They ate it up, how devastated she looked. And it's like, you. You know, everyone was like, you got what you deserve. Like, it's just this whole storyline.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Everyone loves that kind of, like, teach her a lesson. Totally. You know what I mean? God forbid she lay in the bed that you made type of thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally. So that's kind of what happened. No one had any sympathy for her. She restarts the program with the new lace, and the routine goes well, but there's no triple axel. Nothing. Nothing great. And Nancy skates after Tanya and again skates a great pro. And it's looking like Nancy might be poised for the goal that everyone is rooting for her because she's America's princess, and she got back on the ice, and it's all that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's so brave. Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's a Disney princess.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's braver that Tonya got on the ice because aside from physical, I think psychologically, if we're gonna do a brave measurement, Tanya wins that one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She refused to apologize to anyone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Mm.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She had chutzpah Maybe a little too much chutzpah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But then comes 16 year old Oksana Bayul from Ukraine. And sensing that she's probably neck and neck with Nancy, she adds in an unplanned triple toe loop, whatever the fuck that is at the end of her program. And it ultimately lands her the gold. And Nancy gets the silver. Tanya comes in 8th place after all of that. So I think they were hoping that they'd be like, neck and neck. No. And it's a really disappointing outcome, of course, for the American sports casting perspective and an unsatisfying end of the biggest sports story of the year. But Oksana did skate really well. But a lot of people say that the skating community was actually just sick of America's antics. So even though Nancy should have gotten gold, and a lot of people argue that they were just, like, done with America's bullshit. So gay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So Nancy's double punished.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nancy's double punished.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because something she had no control over.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, well. But also, it just like. And also, wrap it up. That is so like life where it's just like, you can't hang out in the public eye that long, right? Without.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They're gonna get fucking sick of you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Knowing they're.

[Georgia Hardstark]

How much they like you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're gonna come at you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What are we doing? It's ten fucking years of this show.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We've had that time and again.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We have, haven't we?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, Jesus Christ.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're the Tonya Hardings and Nancy Kerrigan podcast. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think for the double Tonya Hardings of podcast.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Tonya Hardings of podcasting. Fine. So in March of 1994, right after the games end, Tonya makes a plea deal pleading guilty to conspiracy to hinder prosecution. She's stripped of her 1994 Olympic eighth place title. She's like, take it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You can have it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And she's banned from participating in figure skating in any official capacity for the rest of her life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Jesus.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which kind? It's. It's a devastating blow. That's like what her whole life has been leading up to. But also, it means she won't be able to coach or make any money in the skating circuit, you know, in Disney on Ice or whatever. She cannot even fucking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that blows.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So that's. Her entire life has been dedicated to this thing, and she can't make a penny off of it. It's all she knows. She didn't even graduate high school.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's some vengeful skating. The skating authority is tough.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Like, let her get on the B level circuit, you know, like, let her coach. How does that hurt you?

[Karen Kilgariff]

They gotta, like, make a point. No attacking other people's knees from now on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fair enough. In the 2010s, after renewed attention to the case, and then also after the Tanya movie comes out, which was so fucking good. I watched it over the weekend. Like, I didn't think I'd like it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so fucking good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so funny. She finds more work on reality TV and does better. And in 2018, she comes in third on Dancing with the Stars.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did she really?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Third is amazing. Amazing for someone who's. Well, she's a dancer, I guess, but not in that sense.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And probably not for a while.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But also, Dancing with the Stars is hard.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Jesus.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Guess what? You're gonna be on it next. Would you do it if I asked you?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Never.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You wouldn't?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fuck no. Why? Because they're just in your business all the time. It's like a reality show of, like, this is also your life. And so then it's like you practicing. It's just.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No behind the scenes. No behind the scenes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's too much of, like, any person's, like, you know, that's real training.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, I gotta call our agent and tell him you said no. Nancy has remained deeply involved in the skating community and has commentated for the Olympics. She lives in Massachusetts Variant, and she has a husband and kids. She's very involved in the Skating Club of Boston, the group that lost many young figure skaters in last year's plane crash in Washington, D.C. no. And there's video of her getting a press conference, like, weeping. It's so sad. So now do you feel fucking bad?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Even worse.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Here's something better. She's actually also appearing on Dancing with the Stars several seasons before Tonya, and she came in sixth.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh. So I think we know who the better athlete is. After all these years, they really. In the form that it needs to be figured out. Dancing with the Stars, not the Olympics.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Look at us, sitting on our butts critiquing. I can't talk.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Armchair quarterbacking.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

As we love to do throughout the.

[Georgia Hardstark]

90S, American figure skating becomes a huge deal with TV specials and national tours. This is when it really, like, blows up into mainstream. And figure skaters are catapulted to a much higher status of fame and recognition and those lucrative deals than they were previously. And a lot of people think that Nancy, the whole Nancy versus Tonya spectacle is part of the reason for this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So it launches a generation of figure skating fans who to this day, continue to debate what Tanya knew and when she knew it. And that is the story of the 1994 assault of Nancy Kerrigan.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What an incredible Christmas tale. So good for the holidays.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's that thing. Like, is that a Christmas movie? Is this a Christmas story? Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, it is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It is ice. It's ice.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's everywhere. But also, it's like hopes and dreams and then dreams deferred and what that does to you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Christmas miracle.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's almost like they did it. The Olympic committee did that on purpose of, like, nobody likes the way that ended up with Kerrigan and Harding. So let's get him back in. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because that's wild.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Amazing story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What a great thing for everyone's vacation.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. I didn't even think of doing it because it's just, like, such a story from our youth. Like, I just am. Like, that's not true crime. Or, like, that's just what happened. And it's like, oh, this is fucking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's when someone. They pulled crime into their perfect little world of athleticism and, you know, coaching and, like, that's not allowed there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. Yeah. When Allie and Molly pitched it, I was like, oh, I could do that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So thanks, you guys.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that was great. That was really good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you. Good job to you, too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You were a great spectator and commentator.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, I was there for a lot of it. Don't remember it accurately, but love chatting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's my favorite, especially at Christmas. Especially. Sorry I keep saying Christmas to you, especially at the holiday times. Thank you. Your holiday is also important to who? To me. Well, listeners, have a lovely holiday. Whatever you're celebrating or even not celebrating.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. Treat yourself to something nice. You deserve it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Treat yourself to a telescoping weapon of your choice this holiday season.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Stay sexy and don't get murdered. Goodbye, Elvis. Do you want a cookie?

[Karen Kilgariff]

This has been an exactly right production.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Our senior producer is Molly Smith and our associate producer is Tessa Hughes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our editor is Aristotle Lacvedo.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This episode was mixed by Liana Squillace.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our researchers are Mary McGlashan and Ali Elkin.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Email your hometowns to my favorite murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Gmail.Com and follow the show on Instagram at My favorite murder.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Listen to My favorite murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or you can Watch us on YouTube. Search for my favorite murder, then like, and subscribe Goodbye. At cvs, it matters that we're not just in your community, but that we're part of it. It matters that we're here for you when you need us, day or night.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And we want everyone to feel welcomed and rewarded.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It matters that CVS is here to fill your your prescriptions and here to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fill your craving for a tasty and, yeah, healthy snack.

[Karen Kilgariff]

At cvs, we're proud to serve your.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Community because we believe where you get your medicine matters.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So Visit [e-mail] or just come by our store.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We can't wait to meet you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Store hours vary by location.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Janice Torres here and I'm Austin Hankwitz. We host the podcast Mind the Business Small Business Success Stories, produced by Ruby Studio in partnership with Intuit Quote quickbooks.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're back for season four to talk to some incredible small business owners.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The big thing about working at tech is that it's ever evolving, ever changing. Everyone's a rookie. That's how fast the industry is changing. So what I'm really excited about is to be part of that change. So listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hear that? It's holiday cheer arriving at Ulta Beauty with gifts for everyone on on your list. Treat them to fan favorite gift sets from Charlotte, Tilbury and Peach and Lily. Go all out with timeless fragrances from ysl, Ariana Grande and Carolina Herrera. And you can never go wrong with an Ulta Beauty gift card. Head to Ulta Beauty for gifts that make the holidays brighter and even more beautiful. Ulta Beauty gifting happens here.