514 - Beef With Myself

Summary

My Favorite Murder – Episode 514: “Beef With Myself”

Release Date: January 8, 2026
Hosts: Karen Kilgariff & Georgia Hardstark
Network: Exactly Right & iHeartPodcasts

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Overview

Karen and Georgia kick off 2026 with a lively, banter-filled episode that mixes gratitude for their community with classic My Favorite Murder true crime storytelling. This installment is marked by anticipation of their upcoming 10-year anniversary, a showcase of creative fan gifts, discussions of their new year resolutions, and the retelling of two jaw-dropping true crime stories: the puzzling cold case of Rose Burkert and Roger Atkinson, and the bizarre, nearly slapstick saga of “the unkillable” Michael Malloy. Throughout, the hosts reflect on the reasons they’ve been doing this for a decade, the emotional toll of cold cases, and their enduring bond with their listeners.

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Episode Highlights

10 Years of My Favorite Murder: Anniversary & Listener Gifts

(Starts ~01:00)

• Karen and Georgia celebrate the imminent 10-year anniversary of MFM. They joke about needing to “wrap up” their ninth-anniversary ceramics celebration as the traditional tenth gift is “tin.”
  • “Nine year anniversary is ceramics, obviously. Ten years. Like tin foil. I don't. What is it?” – Georgia (02:09)
• They share and describe elaborate, handmade listener gifts, including:
  • A vintage ceramic Siamese cat with a unique necklace (by Jordan at JMax Ceramics)
  • Custom dog bowls also from JMax Ceramics
  • Stacking Mothman mugs with cheeky “Bye… bitches” etching (by Keiko Inoue @keikopots)
  • An intricately crafted ceramic butterfly from Boise (by Lisa at The Potter Center) with a poetic note about “metamorphosis”
    • “You've embraced metamorphosis in all its beautiful, awful, messy glory. In the public eye, no less. …Thank you for giving us community in the chaos.” – Listener note (06:17)
  • SSDGM and custom stained-glass “dead pets” art from Elora at Down the Line Design
• The hosts express appreciation for their community and invite listeners for more tinfoil-themed art for their next celebration.

Post-Holiday Reflections & New Year’s Resolutions

(Starts ~09:17)

• Karen and Georgia reconnect after a long break, sharing comical stories of time spent with family and their low-key holidays.
  • Karen: Watching football with her dad and TikTok scrolling.
  • Georgia: Staying home, focusing on comfort and self-care.
• Both discuss their New Year's resolutions:
  • Georgia: “I'm making decisions now and doing the hard things now. My point is to help future Georgia…”
  • Karen: “I just have to do more stuff so my life isn't just work. …It's like the expansion of just kind of lots of experiences.” (11:10)

Podcast & Network Recommendations

(Starts ~13:24 & 15:35)

• Karen recommends the podcast “Beth’s Dead” for its personal, non-sensationalized approach to true crime survival stories.
• Karen raves about "Undercover of Night": A journalist-led investigation into a mysterious death in Texas, raising the question, “If people found you dead and they just saw what was around you, what would they think about you?”
  • “It's so compelling. It's so well done.” – Karen (14:51)
• Exactly Right Network highlights:
  • New legal podcast “Brief Recess”
  • “Do You Need a Ride?” with Henry Phillips
  • Reminds listeners about Fan Cult and social media updates

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Story 1: The Cold Case of Rose Burkert & Roger Atkinson

Told by Georgia, Begins ~18:01

The Case

• Location: Williamsburg, Iowa (Amana Holiday Inn), September 13, 1980
• Victims: Rose Burkert (22, single mother) and Roger Atkinson (32, married; Sunday school teacher)
• The pair, conducting an affair, are gruesomely murdered in their hotel room, beaten with a hatchet. The investigation is clouded by:
  • The couple’s secrecy and last-minute booking (room acquired due to a random cancellation – 24:08).
  • No forced entry, but an accessible physical key system.
  • Cryptic and bizarre evidence:
    • Chair pulled up to the bed; a bar of soap whittled under it (for possible intimidation or psychological manipulation) (27:44).
      • “To me, it seems like knife play… it's threatening, intimidating…” – Karen (28:09)
    • A wiped-off message on the bathroom door, with only the word “this” visible.
    • Toothpaste squeezed all over (linked to a similar murder).
  • A partial fingerprint found, small amounts of money stolen.

Theories

• Wife (Marcy Atkinson):
  • Files wrongful death suit, secures double indemnity insurance, but has an alibi (31:36).
• Rose’s Ex-boyfriend:
  • She’d recently told friends if she were harmed, “it would have been her ex who did it” (32:32).
• Serial Killer/Stranger:
  • Linked to a similar murder in Illinois (William Kyle Jr.), sharing the detail of toothpaste at the scene (33:23).
  • Paul Holes’ theory: Heroin addicts with ED may squeeze toothpaste as a psychological substitute for ejaculation (34:42).
    • “I have never heard that. I looked it up online. …it wouldn't necessarily be online because that's more of like this is, you know, you're equating one to the other.” – Karen (34:56)
  • DNA tested in 2015—unknown sample found on a towel, but results inconclusive due to the nature of hotel towels.
  • No one ever charged; remains unsolved.
  • “Hopefully this doesn't stay a cold case for much longer.” – Georgia (38:45)

Hosts’ Analysis

• They joke about “having beef” with Paul Holes and each other over cold case theories, acknowledging how unresolved cases are agonizing but fascinating (36:14; 40:46).
• Karen: “I think the reason that I get upset is because I'm going to be thinking about this a lot now.”

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[Notable Quote]

Georgia (10:30):
“My plan, and I started last month, and I'm fucking. This is it. I'm making decisions now and doing the hard things now. My point is to help future Georgia.”

Karen (14:30, re: podcast “Undercover of Night”):
“If people found you dead and they just saw what was around you, what would they think about you?”

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Story 2: The Unkillable Michael Malloy (“Iron Mike”)

Told by Karen, Begins ~41:46

Summary

• Setting: 1930s Bronx, NYC – height of the Depression and Prohibition.
• Conspiracy:
  • Tony Marino, speakeasy owner, and patrons (the “Murder Trust”) devise a scheme to take out life insurance on a destitute alcoholic regular, Michael Malloy, and kill him for the money.
    • The plan is to get him to drink himself to death, then fake his identity.
  • Despite repeated, increasingly outlandish attempts—including unlimited rotgut, methanol poisoning, marinated oysters in methanol, “sardine sandwiches” packed with glass and tacks, exposure to freezing temperatures, and finally being run over by a car—Molloy survives each attempt.
    • “He downs several drinks without so much as a shudder. …Then Michael starts snoring. So he wakes up a few hours later and asks for another drink.” (55:42)
  • Final murder involves pumping gas into his room while unconscious, which ultimately kills him after several months of failed attempts.
  • The gang’s sloppiness leads to their exposure as they brag and quarrel.
  • Tony Marino and others are convicted and most are sentenced to death.

Cultural Impact

• Molloy becomes a folk hero—with nicknames like “Iron Mike” and “the man who wouldn’t die.”
  • “Despite the actions of the men who… saw no value in his life, the country at large comes to feel very differently about him.” – Karen (70:49)
• Listeners are encouraged to channel his resilience as inspiration for 2026.

Notable Quotes

• “What a great attitude. Truly, what a kind of like, try, try again. I'm gonna see my friends.” – Karen (61:48)
• “Despite the actions of the men who conspired… the country at large comes to feel very differently about him.” – Karen (70:49)
• “Over time, Michael Malloy’s name has stuck around in the zeitgeist, earning one colorful nickname after the other. Iron Mike, the Rasputin of the Bronx, and even the man who wouldn't die.” (71:01)

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Callbacks, Community & Light-Hearted Closing

(Throughout; Closing ~72:10)

• Hosts joke about tinfoil gifts and invite listeners to submit their “10-year arcs” for the anniversary episode and share MFM milestone stories, highlighting listener growth and the show’s evolving community.

• They tease a big guest for the next episode and call for more pet photos (though not in tinfoil!).

  • “Tell us what you were doing 10 years ago and what you're doing now.” – Karen (73:21)

• Emotional reflection:

  • “Why do we do this? Why have we been doing this for 10 years?” – Karen (41:16)
  • “Including ourselves.” – Georgia (41:28)

• They sign off:
  “Stay sexy and don’t get murdered.”

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• 01:00: Anniversary celebrations & ceramics gifts
• 09:17: Post-holiday catchup & personal resolutions
• 13:24: Podcast recommendations (“Beth’s Dead”, “Undercover of Night”)
• 15:35: Exactly Right Network highlights
• 18:01: Georgia’s cold case: Rose Burkert & Roger Atkinson
• 41:46: Karen’s case: The Unkillable Michael Malloy
• 72:10: Reflections, 10-year arc requests, preview of anniversary episode

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Tone & Takeaways

This episode showcases the signature MFM blend of dark humor, heartfelt appreciation, and chilling storytelling. Karen and Georgia’s easy rapport and willingness to share both laughter and existential dread about the cases they cover keeps veteran listeners and newcomers engrossed. Their gratitude for the Murderino community is front and center, as is the sense that—whether you’re whittling soap, dodging icy park benches, or facing tough truths—a little humor and a lot of resilience can get you through anything (well, almost anything).

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Stay sexy, and don’t get murdered.

Transcript

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is exactly right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Before we get started. Today's episode is brought to you by the Netflix series His and Hers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This new mystery series stars Tessa Thompson as Anna, a journalist in Atlanta, and Jon Bernthal as Detective Jack Harper.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When Anna catches wind of a murder in Dahlonega, the sleepy town where she grew up, Anna pounces on the case and searches for answers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Detective Jack Harper is strangely suspicious of her involvement, chasing her into the crosshairs of his own investigation.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The closer they get to each other, the closer they get to the truth. And we cannot wait to see how it unfolds.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Watch his and hers now only on Netflix.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye. Hello and welcome to my favorite murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's Georgia Hardstark, that's Karen Kilgariff, and this is 2026. I mean, I was gonna say, like, this is our ceramics display.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, we're just going, right? Yeah. It just feels weird to be back. But let's. And so let's do something weird.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We have to point out the elephant in the room because that's all anyone's looking at anyway.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If they're looking, though, some people might just be listening.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Listen, listeners, you need to start looking. We told you that years ago.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Look and listen. That's what we've been saying. It's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We built it into the beginning of the podcast before we even knew we were doing video.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Basically. Next week. I was gonna say tomorrow, but it's next week. What is time is our 10 year anniversary episode. 10 years, which is fucking crazy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wild as hell.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So crazy that we haven't even finished talking about the gifts we got from the nine year anniversary, which was a year ago.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A year ago. And we got so many beautiful, lovely, handmade ceramic gifts.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We thought it would be like a couple people who could throw some clay would be like. Sure. We were inundated with beautiful art.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it's funny because. So nine year anniversary is ceramics, obviously. Ten years. Like tin foil. I don't. What is it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's tin.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so boring. That's like. We have to, like, finish this up and not ask for tin foil.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Please send us as much Reynolds rap as you can. Reynolds wrap. If you're out there, if you're looking and listening, please.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, we're using the name brand.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. That's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because Reynolds rap. The time of our lives.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's get these out of the way really quickly. And then nine years is over.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then let's stop talking about it and just wrap it up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is a ceramic. This Is a ceramic Siamese, like, vintage cat with an incredible necklace on it that I'm obviously obsessed with.

[Karen Kilgariff]

When I first saw that, I was like, they made the whole thing. And it's like, no, Karen, they just made the necklace. Like it's a ceramics thing. No, obviously.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Here's what they did.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, you got the full story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's Jordan From JMax Ceramics, JMac Ceramics, who found mold from the 1970s of this cat from someone's garage. They found it. They found hundreds of molds. Cause they do ceramics. So it's. It's new, vintage. So the mold is vintage, the clay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is new, the cat is new.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I didn't know you could do that. You could make your own.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's when you really care about ceramics.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. And Jordan also looked at the markings to make sure that they were like, correct to Elvis. So this is like the only one that I have that's cross eyed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you want to process these feelings? Cause that's like a tribute almost. I know. That's beautiful.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know if I can process.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, you shouldn't do it on the show.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Feelings are hard for me. It'll take a while.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But feelings are great content.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is. Hey, listeners, this is why you gotta look, because you should see this. This cat is so beautifully made. Oh, my God. So cool looking.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's perfect. Can we put it right? Let's put it on that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What a lovely gift. What if I break it? What if I break it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then Jordan also made you dog bowls.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God, those dog bowls are gorgeous.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So that's really, really cool. So Jordan from J Max ceramic has been probably waiting a year and been like, look, I fucking did what you guys asked.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not only did I do what you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Asked, but I went above and beyond.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Walked into people's garages and got these molds that they don't use anymore. Oh, that really is art. That's incredible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, what do you. What do you have to share with the class?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, these are incredible. So this was sent in by Keiko Inoue from Keiko Pots on Instagram.

[Georgia Hardstark]

How do you spell that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

K E I K O P O T S. Got it. And these are stacking mothman mugs with this beautiful artwork. I guess we should really very heavily describe this to the listeners. Right, so these are beautiful beige ceramic stacking hippie coffee mugs with no handles. So it's like you're just supposed to take your dandelion tea and stand at the window.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Put your both hands around the mug. Like you just went through something. But the funny thing is, they stack and make a whole Mothman. But the top part is the face. So who do you give the crotch of the Mothman to? To someone you hate or someone you love?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think it depends on what you're into.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. Cause take it apart. It's a crotch. That one has a crotch on it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then the top just looks like a sneaky little Mothman peeking over like a fence.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sneaky, cute Mothman with two middle fingers up and then crotch, man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, and more. So this mug on the back, very lightly has etched into it. Bye. On the bottom, it says, bitches.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, perfect.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So, you know, there is a real high, low, above, below situation happening with this mu. That's what art's all about.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Truly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Who are you? Are you up here? Are you down here? Drink out of that mug that day. This is amazing. I really love this one. I was excited when I saw that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think that'll go up for sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But I really was confused when I saw this next one, which I thought someone just sent us in. A butterfly, where it's like, you got the assignment wrong.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It looks like a pinned moth. A beautiful pinned, real dead moth or butterfly in the middle of a frame. But it's fucking made of ceramics.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ceramics. So it's like. I honestly think it was like you guys didn't get it. Here's the. I'll just read this email fast. This is from Noelle and Lisa, and it says, here's to nine incredible years from two of your longtime listeners in Boise, Idaho. Like these ceramic butterflies made by Lisa, who owns the Potter Center. You've embraced metamorphosis in all its beautiful, awful, messy glory. In the public eye, no less. And then in parentheses, all caps, it says queens. And then it says, thank you for giving us community in the chaos. Permission to laugh despite the darkness. A nudge to prioritize mental. And for telling such important stories with empathy and nuance. You've inspired both of us in countless ways. Here's to transformation, community, and art.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ssdgm, Noelle and Lisa. And then just the most intricate, beautiful, small, symbolic butterfly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I thought it would be a moth. Cause you like moths. Like, that's all it meant. But that's actually, like, really beautiful.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's really poetic. And thank you, Noelisa. That's so thoughtful.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're looking forward to what you make out of tinfoil.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Good luck beating the moth.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, so this last one, you don't have the paper on because I wanted to surprise you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. This one is so you can see. It's like an SSDGM stained glass hot dog mustard thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A hot dog stained glass window piece. Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And this is from Elora at Down the Line Design. And it says, hello, everyone. I am a stained glass artist out of Colorado. I've been wanting to do these pieces for a long time now and finally made time for it. I hope they arrive safely and fill your heart with joy. So it's not ceramics, but I'm gonna let it happen anyways. Hell, yeah. Because I wanna show you what else they made. This cool SSCGM one, but Elora also made. Close your eyes. Okay. Okay, Look.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God. Dead pets. Dead pets. Stained glass.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Stained glass. Dead pets.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wait a second.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And that looks. They have the look of our pets.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly. Wait, then look at this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know. That's the creep. You turn it around, they just have dead eyes. Kind of.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's how it is. Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So Elvis in Georgia's stained glass pieces. And they're fucking beautiful.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So beautiful.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So I guess that's what Elora does. Elora says, I had a corn dog piece go viral, selling many of them. I don't have any interesting hometowns, but I live in Denver, so insert any story from there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So there's a lot. And. Oh, I see the eyes are hand painted. That's why they're. They're all white. And then painted. The eye color, so gorgeous. I mean, people, we have so many of these items. We should just go through them, you know, just keep on going through them. There's so many amazing things.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally. So thank you guys, for the last year, for our nine anniversary, nine year anniversary. We have a year to say thank you, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. And thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So thank you for those. We treasure all of them. The ones we haven't talked about, we've seen. And we fucking love them all.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Incredible. I mean, these are just. This is just a drop in the ocean of the great stuff we've got.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What a way to come back from a nice long break.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's been a long break. It's so weird to be back. How was your break? How was your.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was lovely. As I usually do on break when I go home, stay with my dad, he watches football with the football piped directly into his hearing aids. And I sit next to him looking at TikTok. And then when there's a good play, he stops, rewinds it and says, look at this run. And then I have to talk to him about football. Like, I understand what we're Talking about. And, like, I'm super into it. And every time, by the end of the trip, I am into it. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So do you go, stop. You need to see this TikTok ever.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I do. I actually. I just text him the TikTok.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, so he can watch it now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So if I start laughing really hard, he. Sometimes it'll pull him out. So he'll be like, what's going on? And then I'll be like, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Sorry. So it's a very weird. We've gotten our modern language down.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Love it a little bit. That's how it is now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's really relaxing, too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Boomers and Gen X. Like, this is how we connect with our parents.

[Karen Kilgariff]

TikTok can build a bridge.

[Georgia Hardstark]

TikTok can football.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, we can do this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's a language all to itself.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How was your trip? I mean, how was your break?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was good. We planned on going so many places and then just ended up staying home. And it was fucking amazing. I have a New Year's resolution, which I don't normally have.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's hear it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. This is my plan, and I started last month, and I'm fucking. This is it. I'm making decisions now and doing the hard things now. My point is to help future Georgia. Great. So I'm saying no to things now, even though it's hard in the moment, because me in two years isn't gonna go, why didn't I fucking do it then? If I had said no then? Instead, I'm gonna go back and say thank you to myself now for fucking dealing with it in the moment, even though it was uncomfortable and hard.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Amazing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So future fucking me. Life's gonna be easier for her and a little harder for me, but it's worth it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A little harder in the beginning, but then easier the second you start.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I did the same. Not the same resolution, but started my resolution because I was like, I just have to do more stuff so that my life isn't just work. And there's just, like, the expansion of just kind of lots of experiences. So I made my sister because everybody went out of town. So our usual hang people were all gone, and it was just me and Laura and Nora. And so on New Year's, of course, Nora had a party, and so I was like, you and I are going to do something. And she's like, I don't want to do anything. I'm like, I know, but we're going to do it anyway.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So there was basically a The Tom Petty cover band playing at the local theater. And so we're like, let's go see it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So we buy tickets and we go to the pub next door and eat dinner, and we're hanging out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Amazing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The show starts at 9. It's 9:08. The band starts. And I go, oh, my God, there's an opening band. And my sister goes, no, that's them. And I go, this is a New Year's Eve show. And I go, there's no way that's the actual band. And she goes, it is. And she's like, I've gone to shows there before. It's the real band. I'm like, but they have to fill time until midnight. And she's like, it's the band. But we were, like, fighting about it. Cause I was like, there's just no way that's how it would go. And we basically sat there, like, talking and laughing or whatever, and it was over at 10. And we never went.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, that's what adults want to do. Right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was like, wait, do we have to get up and run in there now? Because they started literally on time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, who does that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

People who want to be home by midnight and in bed by midnight.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. I was. I really had my weird L A goggles on, where I was like, did this thing starts at 11:15? And she's like, I'm telling you, nobody.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wants to be listening to music all the way through midnight.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, everyone wants to go home.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You have a podcast you want to?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I do. Okay. So I had to do the drive again.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because the dogs came. And I listened to Beth's Dead. What a cool thing to listen to those guys talk through the other side of an experience like that. Yeah. It's like everybody's heard about, like, that kind of stuff and then the after effect. But it's like, you always get it from the one perspective. And it's like the people who went through it and are like, this is what we went through, and we're gonna tell you all about it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was just so cool and so personal.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Isn't Elizabeth Lane wonderful? Just like, she and Monica are just, like such a lovely people.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, they were so smart. It's like they weren't out to get anybody. They wanted answers. So it wasn't about. It wasn't Witch hunty. And they handled everything really well.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is an interesting parallel because this is a podcast called Undercover of Night, and I literally just found it on, like, the iTunes homepage, and I was like, oh, I forgot to pick something. I'll just pick this. And it's about a woman who is found dead in a small town in Texas. And there's all these strange circumstances around her life and around her home. She lives in a tiny Texas town, but she has a British accent. People know her, but not well. They find stuff in her house that people suddenly start drawing conclusions. And essentially, I think one of the, like, log lines that they say is, if people found you dead and they just saw what was around you, what would they think about you? Or what they, like, come up with about you?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Jesus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And so it's these podcasters who are like journalists and researchers who are just trying to get answers and, like, compare.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because they're just like a mystery of who this person is, and they die.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like locals who had to deal with it who then told stories based on things that were found in the house.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And do they figure it out?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it's so compelling. It's so well done. And it's the same thing where it's like that idea of, like, having an idea and running with it, and then here comes the researcher, fact, journalist, person or whatever to be like. Well, that actually doesn't track with what we knew from before.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I love a mystery. Okay, what's it called again?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Undercover of Night.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Undercover of Night.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it's just basically how mysterious a woman alone who dies is, she gets murdered. Well, they're not sure. They're not sure. It's suspicious circumstances to the people who find her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And so that's the whole thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it's really good. Okay. And really well done.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm in. I love it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, should we do the first 2026 highlights of the Exactly Right Network?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think we should.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. We have a podcast network. It's called Exactly Right Media. Here are some highlights.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, we have a brand new podcast, a legal podcast called Brief Recess, and host Michael Melissa. This week, they break down the Getty Art Museum curator's alleged conspiracy to receive stolen goods, ongoing threats to trans rights through the Childs v. Salazar case that's going on right now. And an unfortunate update involving J.K. rowling. That's probably connected to that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And then on do youo Need a Ride? Hey, Chris and Karen, welcome back. Comedian and musician Henry Phillips, one of.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The funniest people, just one of the greatest.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They cover awkward celebrity encounters, alien invasions, and more.

[Karen Kilgariff]

His awkward celebrity encounter is so hilarious.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm sure, because he's so awkward to begin with.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And so funny. Also, if you don't know Henry Phillips, he had a viral video called you'd and your fucking mug of coffee. That was one of my favorite things. Cause it was like he would walk around with a giant mug of coffee. And, like, the first one is, he's at a voting booth and he's just spilling coffee everywhere. And I was absolutely that person with the mug of coffee. I couldn't control.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God, he's the greatest. He's so good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, on the podcast My Favorite Murder, if you're craving more of our content in the new year, then you need to go over to the Fan Cult because they've got you covered. You get all the episodes of this show ad, free merch store discounts, exclusive video content, and much, much more.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So go to fancult.supercast.com to join the Fan Cult.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And please do not forget to follow My Favorite Murder on Instagram and TikTok. So you never miss all the clips, polls, and important announcements we share. Like breaking pet news. Frank has arthritis.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, does everybody know that? I think they need to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's 2026. It's time to know important details so you can find all of our socials on linktr. Eem. My Favorite Murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's take a quick break. If you are loving today's story, you need to check out Netflix's his and Hers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's the show that takes you into a seemingly perfect small town until Murder shakes everything up and reminds you that small towns are often filled with the most secrets.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No one's who they seem, and every episode drops a new clue.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Seriously, with every twist, you're left wondering, can you trust anyone in this town?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can Anna and Jack trust each other? Or is one of them hiding something?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't miss the suspense in the drama. Watch his and hers now only on Netflix. Goodbye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye. All right, it's. You go first.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, well, I'm gonna start 2026 by irritating the shit out of you with a cold case.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Perfect.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know, I love a cold case. I feel like this one can be solved. Paul Holz has opinions about it too, so, you know, it's important.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did you call him on the phone?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, he has done. He's talked about it in the past. I. I don't know if I agree with him. I'll just say that right now, I don't want to start a fight with Paul Holes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, Beef with Paul Holes in 2026. Why not?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I just don't think. I don't think he's right. But.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, I mean, what does he know? He's just a 35 year investigator, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Look at me. Of a 10 year fucking podcaster, bitch. I don't mean bitch as in he's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, like you're playing a character.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, like as a figure of speech. Okay, so this is a cold case double homicide that rocked two Missouri families in 1980. It's one of those cases that are on the lists of like unsolved cases that can be solved or that have weird clues in them. So this is a story of the cold case murders of Rose Burkert and Roger Atkinson. And the main sources used for the story is a book by Atkisson's widow, whose name is Marcella Lynn Hatcher Atkinson called Axed. And the rest of the sources can be found in the show notes. So it's Saturday, September 13, 1980, and we're in Williamsburg, Iowa, right outside a place called the Amana Col. Ever heard of it? Me neither. The Amana colonies are seven villages that were originally founded by German immigrants in the 1950s, specifically as a religious group that had broken with the Lutheran Church. But.

[Karen Kilgariff]

1950S?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. What did I say? No, 1850s, it was like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Were they all like astronauts and stuff?

[Georgia Hardstark]

So recently.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Why would. That's a reason for a colony.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I know it is. That's neither here nor there because we are outside room 260 at the Amana Holiday Inn and the. The housekeeper isn't getting a response as she knocks at the room's door. The couple in the room should have been checked out at this point, but no one has seen them. The housekeeper can hear the TV on in the room, but after a minute goes by with no one answering, she goes inside. When she enters the room first, she's in this little hallway where you can see into like the end of the room, not. Not the bed. And you can also see the entrance to the bathroom on one side. And so she sees several belongings strewn all over the floor in front of the bed. And once she rounds that little corner and it's like this total 80s, 70s, 80s hotel room and can see the bed, she sees two lifeless bodies, a man and a woman and lots of blood. She calls her boss and the police. So the couple had registered at the front desk as Mr. And Mrs. Roger Burkert. But this is kind of just half true. When the police arrive, it's determined that the people are Rose Burkert, who is 22, and Roger Atkison, who, who is 32. They're not a married couple, but Roger is actually married to someone else, a woman named Marcella Atkinson, who goes by Marcy. That actual couple, Marcy and Roger live in St. Joseph, Missouri. So that's 200 to 220 miles away, like a four hour drive, let's say. And the two of them have been together since Marcy was 15 years old and since Roger was 18. So high school sweethearts, they've been married a very long time. They don't have any kids, which Marcy will later talk about being due to her having endometriosis. And it had been a very painful, you know, subject in their marriage. Roger works as a telephone installer, but he's also a beloved Sunday school teacher in the church. And then Rose, the 22 year old who's found in the bed, is also from St. Joseph, but she and Roger's wife Marcy have never met. So Marcy has no idea who this woman is. Rose has a two year old daughter named Rachel whose dad isn't in the picture, and she works as a nursing aide at a nursing home. But she's also about to go back to school full time to become a nurse. So it looks, of course, as if Roger and Rose had been having an affair at the time the murders first happen. Marcy is deeply in grief and asks that people not pass judgment on her husband and Rose, saying they could have been in a motel together for any number of reasons. But. But as time passes, it does seem to be clear, even to her, that they were having an affair. So much later, when Marcy writes a book about the case, she talks about how she and Roger had been struggling in their marriage and how he had had several affairs. But as of the moment that their bodies are found and the case is developing, the families of both victims remain more focused on their own grief and wanting the case solved than they do on this affair. I mean, what an awful feeling to be like your husband's dead and with another woman in a Hotel room 200 miles away.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's just, it's. Your whole life falls apart in probably every way it could.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Everything you believed in is not true.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And gone.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, and gone totally. So from what people can piece together, on Wednesday, two days before she was killed, Rose had left her daughter in the care of a friend and had traveled from St. Joseph to Cahoka, Missouri, where she had met Roger. They checked into a motel as a married couple. Roger had told his wife Marcy that he'd be on a two week work assignment in Cahoka without any time off and that just he was gonna be gone. It seems that Rose hadn't planned on being with him that entire two weeks. She'd only arranged for her daughter to be cared for through the weekend. So two days later, on Friday, the couple then drives about an hour and a half north to Williamsburg, Iowa, and they check into this Holiday Inn. The hotel had actually been booked solid because of morticians convention in town, which is so creepy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, well, they have to meet, too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They do. Somewhere. But there had been one cancellation in the hotel, and Rose and Roger are assigned to that. They get the room. It's room 260. So it's just weird because it doesn't seem like anyone knew they were going to be there because they didn't even plan the trip, really.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, it's hours away from where they had first met, hours away from their hometown. They hadn't made a reservation. They weren't even supposed to be able to get a room. Someone canceled to get the room.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Does that mean someone was following them?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, someone was following them or was just like a chance encounter? Yeah, just someone just found victims there. You know what I mean? And if they hadn't gone there, like, would the person in room 260 have been killed anyways or would they have been killed? You know, it's just kind of that thing. It seems like they'd been followed. Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, that was the first thing that popped into my head also. Do you think that room 260 was on the second floor?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. And it was also inside the hotel. Like, you couldn't get. It wasn't like it faced the street and the doors faced the street. It was like you had to go into the hotel to get to the door. Right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So the hotel staff say that the couple ordered room service. They moved their car at one point, and some calls were placed to and from the room. That's the information they have. There was a call from Rose to the babysitter when she first arrived at 7:40, and then this babysitter called back, and then a third call was placed to the room. But we don't really know any details about where this call came from. So we're back to the morning of the 13th after the police are summoned to the hotel, and this is what they find. There had been no forced entry into the hotel room. But, you know, someone could have had a key.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And the room could only be accessed from inside the hotel. As I said, the key thing is weird, too, because it was an actual key. So anyone who had stayed there before could just Make a copy of it. Right. It wasn't like it is now, where you swipe something to get in and they change it every time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But then that would be premeditated in a way where it'd be like. So they just wanted to do that in that room?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. I don't know. Or they knew who this person was and they let them in. Or they knocked and they let them in. Who knows? Rose and Roger are found on the bed with the covers pulled up all the way on Rose's side and halfway up on Roger's side. So the top half of his body is uncovered. The covers are saturated with blood. Rose is wearing all her clothes and Roger is only in his boxer shorts. And both are laying face down. It sounds similar to like a golden state killer when he would attack couples. It just sounds like that to me. Both have been hit multiple times in the back of the head by something like an ax or a hatchet. Investigators believe the weapon has a 3 inch blade. They don't find the weapon. Roger's missing several fingers, likely defensive wounds. I know, though most of the wounds are to the back of the head. Both Rose and Roger have multiple other wounds on the top halves of their bodies. There's blood sprayed on the headboard and on the floor next to the bed. It's just a really awful scene. Rose and Roger's belongings are scattered all over the floor. It's a big mess. Roger's wallet has been gone through and some money, maybe around $200 is missing. A partial fingerprint is recovered from the couple's belongings. And so here's the weird couple. Weird pieces of evidence. So a chair had been pulled up to the bed as if someone were sitting there talking to them while they were in bed or just watching them after they killed them. They pulled up a chair and sat down either before or after. And underneath this chair, aside from the person having gone through Roger's wallet and there's cards everywhere, the person took a bar of soap and had been like cutting at it. What's it called when you whittling it? Carving. Yeah, carving and whittling a bar of soap. So just sitting there doing that, which is so menacing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And this was 1980.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry. But there was a commercial for Irish Spring back then where they cut soap in the commercial. Do you remember that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do. Even though I shouldn't because I was a baby.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, it probably ran for a long time, but it was that the thing that's really, really weird and horrifying.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What a weird. Like what kind of Person has that as a, like, hobby. Whittling thing. Like whittling soap.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, what. I don't think whittling soap is a hobby.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You don't think? So, like, do they make. I think they made something out of it. Or is it just like you do it to do it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

To me, it seems like knife play, where it's like. It's threatening, intimidating. It's like. And you like having a knife, so there are different things you can do with it. You probably don't have, like, a block of wood there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. So it seems like it's something you would do. They were alive. To intimidate them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, maybe. Or, like, who knows? Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So then the person, most likely the perpetrator, uses this piece of soap that he'd whittled to write a message on the back of the bathroom door. So it's only visible when light hits the door. Unfortunately, the person wiped almost the whole message off. But you can see one word left behind. It just says this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, like a horror movie, like that kind of thing. Of like, there's a message that reminds me of. It's in seven. Right. Where it's like, you flip the picture over and there's a thing written there that you can only see in black light. Yes. Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So that's fucking menacing and creepy. There's a lot more evidence in the bathroom as well. The sink and one of the white bathroom towels are both visibly stained with blood. And a tube of toothpaste has been squirted into the bathtub and into the sink. So someone, the person, then picked up the toothpaste, squirted it, made a mess all over the bathroom. And this is part of what Paul Hol's theory is, which I'll get to shortly. Toothpaste. What does that mean to you? That they did that? They just wanted to make a mess.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, if they were kind of out of their minds and doing stuff and in there. Right. If they're, like, looking for stuff or.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Grabbing shit on the wall, like, making a mess. It's just hard to make mayhem.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Kind of mayhem. But then also. Or if they're a full psychopath and just everything's very calm and they're hooting, you know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Or purposely misleading the police. To be like this means nothing, but they're gonna think it's a clue.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. But that feels less likely the further back we go in time. Because I feel like people do stuff like that. Cause they've been informed over the years by TV shows and entertainment.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Who Knows. Okay. Okay. So here are some theories. Let's get to those. It sounds like the affair between Roger and Rose was possibly developing into more than just a fling. People around their hometown of St. Joseph knew about the affair. Marcy, the wife, would later learn from her pastor, no less, that Roger had become really attached to Rose's two year old daughter. So people, of course, looked at Marcy pretty quickly at the wife, as you do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Why? Did the pastor know? Did he, like, go talk to his pastor about it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, probably sounds like it. Right. So Marcy files a wrongful death suit against the Holiday Inn, saying that the hotel didn't provide adequate security and that this contributed to Roger's death. That lawsuit is ultimately settled out of court, and both parties agree to keep some of that settlement private. I wonder if there's also details about the evidence in the case that they didn't want getting out there. So she gets the settlement from that, and then she also is able to secure a double indemnity life insurance payout from various insurance companies that they had life insurance with totaling $140,000 in 1980, which in today's money. 350, 550. Wow. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Half a million dollars is a lot of money.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. However, like, that could just be what couples do sometimes. I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. It doesn't necessarily mean anything.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Like, people die and that happens all the time, so it doesn't really mean anything. And she does have an alibi. She'd been babysitting for a couple that was out of town when this happened. And again, this is hours away from their hometown, so she couldn't have gone up and back. But maybe she hired someone to. Maybe she was pissed off. And then I think they kind of stopped paying attention to her as a suspect because she has an alibi. It doesn't seem like they have any evidence, but also there are other theories that are compelling as well. So another possibility is that the killer could have been an ex boyfriend of Rose's who had apparently been stalking her in the weeks leading up to the murder. On September 9, right before she left to go on this trip with Roger, Rose had told a friend two things, that if anything ever happened to her, she wanted one of her brothers to raise her daughter. And then if anything happened to her, it would have been her ex who did it. So that's not something you say lightly. And then days later, you're murdered.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And possibly followed to that location.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And that seems like the most plausible explanation. Right. But then investigators see Some chilling similarities between this case and a murder that happened just three months earlier. And it seems like maybe they stopped pursuing that lead because of this really weird, confusing similarity of this murder. So on June 25, 1980, in Galesburg, Illinois, which is about 130 miles away from where we were, like a two hour drive, a man named William Kyle Jr. Had been killed in a hotel room and his wounds had been similar. Police believe that an axe or hatchet had been the murder weapon in that case as well. And in addition to this, a tube of toothpaste had been squeezed out at the foot of the bed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's weird.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's fucking weird.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's really specific. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're not talking about years and across the country difference.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like proximity and time. Close.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So the question is, is squirting a tube of toothpaste meaningful in some way that we don't understand? And that's where Paul Holes comes in.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because ultimately the murder of William Kyle Jr. Is circumstantially linked to a man named Raymundo Esparza, who can be placed in the area. At the time near the hotel, Esparza was a vagrant and was addicted to heroin. And that's a known fact, although, you know, that's just a circumstantial tie in to this murder. The detail is important of the heroin addiction because of the stolen money, but also because of the toothpaste which was present at both crimes. So in 2019, on the oxygen show, the DNA of murder, Paul Holz says that he learned that heroin addicts experiencing erectile dysfunction will sometimes squeeze out a tube of toothpaste to simulate ejaculation and experience sexual gratification, which they can't get because of the issues with erectile dysfunction around heroin addiction. I have never heard that. I looked it up online. I tried to find that as like any kind of information that, like, pointed in that direction.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. But I feel like that's more the psychological approach as opposed to. It wouldn't necessarily be online because that would be more of like this is, you know, you're equating one to the other. So it's like you're trying to do the thing that's similar to the feeling.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. So they're not saying heroin addicts do that all the time. They're saying that could be one reason why that was done.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Could be just trying looking for some sort of the why of it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Maybe. Don't have me. I disagree with Melville so much.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, but what's interesting about it is to me, this is. And we've talked about this a lot of the. What is interesting about true crime is the psychology of people where it's like the different circumstances in your life that bring you to take these actions and what they mean and you know, your shadow self and the things that you haven't processed and the problems you're having and how all of those actions really represent something that's going on inside you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally. And somehow this like that toothpaste thing equates to me with a hitman even more because it's this person who is so comfortable with murder, has done this so many times, it's so destructive and so not a big deal, that he then makes a mess in the room and doesn't give a fuck. It's not like I snuck out and hid all the evidence.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, now I have a beef with you because I would say hit men just leave.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. They wouldn't be messing around or trying to steal anyone.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Stealing money. I don't even think hitman steal money.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't think they touch stuff. I think it's like they get the job done and they go, yeah, and.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or use a hatchet to begin with.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Although I'll argue myself now, beef with myself where it's like, but if someone, whoever it might have been, you're not always hiring a CIA grade hitman.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're hiring the fucking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sometimes it's like, will you go take care of a thing I can't deal with?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Who knows?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And they're not like a professional at all.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I hate those unprofessional hit men.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Get it together. Okay, so Paul Holes does believe that Rose and Roger were killed by a serial killer. The same person who killed William Kyle Jr. And possibly another victim back in 1970. That man was named Jack McDonald and he was 23 years old. He had been bludgeoned to death in a motel room in Meridian, Mississippi, which is 10 hours or almost 11 hours away. So who knows? But they're all on the same kind of close to that connecting interstate. So that would make sense.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's harkening back to the old man on a train.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You love that one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

My favorite. Well, it's just the scariest idea is this untraceable stranger.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Where it's like there's no one to connect to it. And he is already on the train out of town.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, there is now. With DNA.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. So Esparza is never charged in any of these cases. And it's so circumstantial. He's just seen near the scene of the crime in one of the cases. And he's a heroin addict and he dies in 1983. But his name keeps coming up whenever people talk about this case. Now in 2015, one of the bathroom towels that had been preserved in evidence is retested and DNA is recovered from it. There are three samples. One from Rose, one from Roger, and one from an unknown person. But it's a hotel room bath towel. Like, who knows how clean that is? Especially 1980. They didn't have of bleach, actually. No, they had like, tox. The worst kind of. Maybe it's like even more believable.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Then there's like a vat of lie of lie down in the basement or something.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But, yeah, worst case scenario for trying to get it all down to just one person.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally. It's not like someone's house where it shouldn't be there at all. It's like. Yeah. So as far as we know at this point, there's never been a hit on that third sample. Maybe they're testing it. Maybe they're doing the genealogical DNA. We gotta hope. And on the DNA of murder, Paul Holes recommended that Esparza's body be exhumed and tested against that DNA sample.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But as far as we know, that hasn't happened yet. And that show is from 2019. So he probably couldn't talk yet about the fact that you could do genealogical DNA. So you don't even need to exhume him if there's other family members he can make trace to. Right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So hopefully this doesn't stay a cold case for much longer. That is the story of the unsolved murders of Rose Burkert and Roger Atkinson. And you are so angry right now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Really, really furious. Well, just. It's so compelling. Yeah, but. And also, we didn't even talk about, like, who was the staff at that motel or hotel. Like, did they run background checks on anybody back then?

[Georgia Hardstark]

So did someone, like, never come back to work then, you know, after that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Happened and get a job at the next hotel?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally. It's just. It's so sketchy and weird and creepy and 1980s and makes you think of just these deprived serial killers. Like, is that the right word?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Depraved?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Depraved. They're not deprived.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No. It's also like the thing of. It's plenty and bad enough an ax murder or that kind of violence where it's like. But then all of these additional things that add to it, but also add to the Confusion. Because we have heard of lots of stories where it's like the Golden State Killer himself, where there's so many red herrings.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. That's what I think about the toothpaste thing. It just seems like such a. Like, what's it called when you throw a wrench in the thing in the place?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Red herring.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yep. You throw a wrench into the red herring when you throw a red herring into the toolbox.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. You don't want that in there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. Cause then it just leads you in a completely different direction. Rather than like the obvious basic facts of, like, you know, the money being stolen and the fingerprint and the way they were murdered. No break in signs of break in. Like, instead of that, the obvious, like, basic ones. You have like the soap being whittled and the fucking toothpaste and the writing in the back of the. Like, it just doesn't. It makes it so much more difficult, it seems like, to like, get a clear answer. Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And to theorize and to kind of feel like, well, this is why this happened.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Or obviously, blah, blah, blah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Obviously it was, you know, it was revenge. Obviously it was blank. And it's just like. And no. And also that's a wife who then has lost her husband in multiple ways in one story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or a heroin addict that's being accused of murder and is completely innocent and he's just actually a victim of his own drug addiction.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Absolutely.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, all of it is just. I hope you see. I hope you see my point now and never do a cold case.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. But like in year 11, when I'm like, I have an answer to our.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cold case, you'll have the last laugh for sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. But I won't laugh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No one will be laughing at all. And it is not a victory.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Why do we do this? Why have we been doing this for 10 years?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Some people would argue against it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Many have.

[Georgia Hardstark]

10 years of it all.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Many have. Including ourselves.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow, that was great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think the reason that I get upset is because I'm going to be thinking about this a lot now. And that's the thing, that's why I.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Tell you, is I want you to take some of mine from me. Please.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Take it. Take this off of me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's very heavy now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, I'm going to put something on you that's heavy now. Oh, great. And insane. Okay, so it's a turn. It's not left, though.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. I like these.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's one of the Crazier stories. And I was gonna do it on tour, but we had so many good choices. On tour?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It takes place in 1930s New York City in the Bronx, where a guy in his late 20s named Tony Marino owns a speakeasy because it's the Depression e a terrible time for almost every American, but it's also the prohibition era. So alcohol is illegal, but you can find it if you know where to get it. That means speakeasies. So if you don't know, a speakeasy is a secret bar that got its name. I just learned this. Speakeasies got their name from illegal British and Irish bars of the 19th century. They called them speak softly shops.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, to like, not let anyone hear you fucking drunk as shit. Cause you're not supposed to be.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or zip it about this place. We're gonna go get drunk so we can keep.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Got it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But doesn't that sound like I'm joking that they used to call them speak softly shops in England as opposed to a speakeasy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It sounds like you're making fun of British people.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I think we're going to get emails about it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We do. Okay. So as you know, it's speakeasy special. Knock on a hidden door, maybe a little window slides open, you say the password.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We've seen whose friend Roger Rabbit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We've seen Boardwalk Empire. We've seen movies and TV show. But speakeasies ran the gamut from being swanky, having beautiful decor and very fine liquor to several notches below total dives. The worst of the worst, serving liquor that could make you go blind. Homemade ethanol gin. Yep. Oh, God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you read about the ones with people on tourists drinking? Oh, God. I read those stories all the time. I don't know why. I'm fascinated and horrified by them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, yeah. Just like basically being served it and poisoned.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They're all in, like a fucking hostel and dying. It's just so terrible.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's horrible. So Tony Marino's speakeasy is one of the worst of the worst. It's a room behind an abandoned storefront. They've got a handful of tables, a ratty sofa, and a toilet behind a beaded curtain.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, don't do that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, they will. In your face. They're like, you can't tell anybody about this. We're not putting a door on the toilet.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But in 1930s, like, is that actually, like luxury toilet? Cause it's not out back.

[Karen Kilgariff]

At least it's there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, kind of.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If it's here, we're gonna watch you do It. Well, let's talk about the positives. Tony Speakeasy has a snack bar that's free for his patrons that offers assorted lunch meats, bread and sardines.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love a dive bar, like buffet, like drawing room. Would have a fucking vat of hot dogs with hot dog water that had been sitting there for 10 hours.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There was a place in San Francisco called Specs. It's nice. It wasn't a dive bar. It was just kind of hidden. But they used to have little, little those plastic baskets that would have cheese and crackers that somebody cut up the cheese and then it would go, cheese cracker. Cheese cracker. And you would just get drunk and sit there and be like, amazing. Cheese crackers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My favorite dive bar snacks.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, come on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, it's in Little Italy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, it's the alley bar.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's one of the oldest bars.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, that's a fucking great bar.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And the sign is a pair of glasses. And you have to know it's a bar. It's a great place. Cheese and crackers. And also you're allowed to eat on the toilet. So. Just kidding. So sandwiches, of course, can't make up for the absolutely atrocious liquor that Tony serves his low down, dirty patrons. They're usually unruly drunks. They all get into bar fights. Like it is pretty bad there. And it's the kind of place where very, very bad ideas are born. Like this one in the winter of 1932, which is like, like right before the great sea prohibition was revealed. Oh, repealed. Oh yeah. So they're all kind of doing this in this terrible place and it's like, and ta da, it's over.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oops, sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So a group of patrons at Tony Marino Speakeasy come up with a plan to make some quick cash. Cuz of course everyone's broke. No one can pay their bills. Completely desperate. The richest of the rich are throwing themselves out of windows. You know, middle class people are now super poor. Everyone's in a breadline, like really rough. Everyone needs to make quick cash. And they decide they can do this with a plan about and at the expense of one of the speakeasy's regulars. This mark is a man named Michael Malloy, who's been since described as, quote, a biological wonder. This is the story of the unkillable Mike Malloy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God. Uh huh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So the sources maron used for this story are the book on the House by Simon Reed, a 2020 episode of Criminal, and a 2012 Smithsonian Magazine article by Alex Abbott. Kahler. The rest of the sources are in our show notes. Okay, let's start with the roughly estimated 60 year old Michael Molloy. Of course, he has a very murky personal history. It's believed that he's an immigrant from Ireland, immigrated to New York City. He doesn't seem to have family, he doesn't seem to have friends. In this book on the house, author Simon Reed quotes a district attorney from back then who says, quote, I cannot prove much to you about Michael Malloy, who he was or where he came. Malloy is to me, an unknown. He was a derelict hanging out in speakeasies, doing odd jobs for a bit of food or shelter, probably never on salary, and always working for drinks when he could get them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yikes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So the one thing we do know about Michael is he is a raging alcoholic and he's a staple at Tony's speakeasy. He's always there, typically getting so drunk on cheap whiskey and gin, he usually ends up up at the end of the night slumped on the bar, like passed out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There are other regulars at Tony Marino Speakeasy who see Michael do this night after night, like 24 year old undertaker Francis Pasqua and 29 year old grocer Daniel Kreisberg. So on one night late 1932, these two men, along with Tony Marino, the owner, they get talking about their money troubles and one of them pitches a diabolical idea. We should kill Michael Malloy and split the payout on his life insurance while he's there sleeping. Yeah. Full voice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

As they're leaning on his back because he's passed out. No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And the person who pitched this idea was Tony, and that's because he'd done it before. Oh, dear. So we're Talking about the 30s in like New York City. Tough stuff. People going through it. People like surviving by any means necessary. The year before, Tony started an affair with a woman named Mabel Carlson, who herself was down on her luck. We don't know how old she was. He convinced her to take out a life insurance policy and named him as the beneficiary.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And as author Abbott Kaler reports, he, quote, force fed her alcohol, stripped off her clothing, doused the sheets and mattress with ice water, and pushed the bed beneath an open window.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What?

[Karen Kilgariff]

So Mabel died ostensibly of exposure and alcohol overdose, but her official cause was listed as pneumonia, suggesting she died a natural death. And Toni collected that payout, no questions asked. Right. She just. This is. This is just. A lady can't take care of herself. She left the Window open because she's a drunk.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's awful.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And it's also awful because Tony's running the speakeasy with this shitty liquor and basically going, well, who of these people that I am serving this liquor to can we take advantage of because they're addicted to it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So this is the idea. Tony pitches to these two guys, and they decide to make a plan. The plan is, let's do the exact same thing to Michael Malloy. Anyone can see Michael's not a healthy man. He is always drunk. He's lived a very hard, clearly, and very lonely life. Doesn't have a job or a permanent home, and he basically lives on the sardine sandwiches he makes at the speakeasies bar cart, which actually is a real argument for tinned fish, because you've got those oils, you've got those vitamins. He also drinks an ungodly amount of very cheap alcohol. And so they probably just rationalize killing him. Like, oh, it's almost better for him. Look at his terrible life. So basically, Francis, Daniel, and Tony, they just ask Michael Malloy if they can take out a life insurance policy on him. It's unclear if Michael is suspicious in any way or if he's just blackout drunk, but he basically says, sure, sure, go ahead.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So Francis Pasqua, the undertaker, sets up meetings with different insurance agents, and he brings Michael with him. So it's like, I need to set up a thing for this guy. The insurers all smell a rat, and they all refuse to issue any policies.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, it's also like, why would we give a policy to someone who isn't? A life insurance policy is to get someone money when they're like, when a person who's making money dies.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, for the family to cover the bills.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. As much as someone died, I get money.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hey, can I get this guy? And they're just like, no, thanks. So Frances, Daniel, and Tony have to rework the plan. They decide they're gonna set up more meetings with new insurance agents. This time, they're gonna leave Michael Malloy at the bar, and they're going to get a friend, a friend of Frances, who they falsely claim is a florist named Nicholas Mellory, to go. So it takes about five months, but Frances finally finds a few insurance agents who are willing to work with him. He gets three policies taken out on this Nicholas Mellory, who, again, is not real. Two of them are with Prudential Life Insurance, one's with Metropolitan Life Insurance. And if all goes according to plan, the three men will have around $3,500 to split between them in 1932. 32, how much?

[Georgia Hardstark]

33. What'd you say?

[Karen Kilgariff]

$3,500.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm gonna go 11,000.

[Karen Kilgariff]

83,000.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Holy shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. So maybe it's because for them it's so much money. They then pull in another co conspirator. It's Tony's 28 year old bartender, Joseph Murphy, who is willing to falsely state that he himself is Nicholas Mellory's next of kin when they have to identify the body. So they just start pulling people in on the plan. All these men get together and they start having to discuss, how are we gonna kill Michael Malloy? They decide the cleanest option is to give him an open bar tab and let him drink himself to death. And then once he's dead, they slip the fake ID into his pocket that says he's Nicholas Mellory. And then Joseph Murphy goes, identifies him as next of kin and they get their life insurance money. When Tony Marino offers Malloy unlimited drinks at the speakeasy, he. He is over the moon, of course. Again, not at all suspicious. The first day of his open tab, he drinks an insane amount of liquor. Enough that should incapacitate him, if not outright kill him. He just goes for it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Jesus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And he doesn't die, he doesn't even pass out. He downs his drinks one after the other like it's nothing. And he just eventually says goodnight and walks out of the park. Oh my God, the four men. It's now four men. They are stunned. Michael comes back the next day. He's like, it's open bar, open tab for me. He does it again.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can you imagine the hangover of shitty liquor? Like a lot of it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can you imagine being in a place where the hangover doesn't matter anymore? Like it's just like drink through it. Yeah, probably never stop being drunk. Just keep going. Yeah, I've done that. The next day he does it again. He binges this insane amount of liquor, says, thanks everybody, good night, leaves, nothing happens. Then when he returns the next day, he only puts his glass down to walk over to the snack cart and make himself a sardine sandwich. Then the day after that, he walks into Tony's speakeasy and announces, quote, boy, ain't I got a thirst. So he's just stoked. He's all positive. And this really speaks to the power of positive thinking. If you're enjoying yourself, you know, anything is possible. Obviously, Francis, Daniel, Tony and Joseph need a new plan. And they decide they're just gonna swap out Michael's drinks with methanol, wood alcohol, which you were talking about before. It's the kind that's used as paint thinner.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, yeah, right, right, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So of course it's not fit for human consumption. And in large quantities, it could blind you or kill you. And that's what they used to make bathtub gin with. They would mix real gin with that to kind of be like, cut it with it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, like the baby aspirin and the cocaine kind of a thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So the bartender, Joseph, goes out and he buys a few cans of wood alcohol at the paint shop for 10 cents a pop. Michael comes back into the bar. Joseph starts by serving him real shots of liquor. But by shots, 2, 3, 4, and so on, it's just straight wood grain alcohol. Michael doesn't even seem to notice. He downs several drinks without so much as a shudder. And then he keeps ordering more and more and more. They do take a toll, though. He eventually passes out. He falls to the ground. Francis is sitting at a table watching all of this. He walks over when Michael's body hits the ground. He checks his pulse. He checks his breathing. They're both slow and labored. So the guys just wait. And they stand there staring at him, thinking he's dying. But then Michael starts snoring. So he wakes up a few hours later and asks for another drink.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, God. Poor guy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So the men realize we need a new plan. Francis, who's the undertaker, thinks back to a body that he handled once of a man who had died after eating bad oysters while drinking wood alcohol. And so the guys try to replicate this death by serving Michael a plate of oysters that had been marinating in straight methanol.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ew.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow. Gross.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Michael gobbles them up and asks for more.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He thinks they're great. At this point, Francis, Daniel, Tony, and Joseph are getting mad. They're like, this man is. They basically become kind of sadistic. One afternoon, they serve a very drunk Michael a sardine sandwich packed with carpet tacks and broken glass.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thinking if he's not noticing the wood grain alcohol, then maybe he'll just eat this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. That's like desperation at this point.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, they're. They are desperate.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What the fuck?

[Karen Kilgariff]

And they're like, okay, he'll eat this. It'll tear up his organs. Michael eats it without complaint. Joseph will later say that Michael, quote, ate it and liked it. By this point, the men are at a loss. And it seems like they're pretty vocal about this frustration because they start pulling more and more co conspirators into the plan. Most of these guys are shady neighborhood types. They're not particularly bright. They have petty criminal backgrounds. And it includes a guy named Johnny McNally, another's named Joseph Maglioni, who goes by the nickname Tin Ear because he has an artificial ear.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is that what we're gonna get for our 10 year anniversary? Oh, a tin ear.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I would love a tin ear.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cute. Georgia, don't ruin our surprise.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, you fit it right onto your old ear because he has an artificial ear. Another named tough Tony Bastoni because he's super nice to everybody. That's a joke. He's probably pretty tough. And altogether these guys, they'll eventually be dubbed the Murder Trust in the press, which for simplicity, we can call them now so I don't have to name every single guy every time. So one night In December of 1932, the Murder Trust gets together to figure out how to kill Michael Moy once and for all. They can't keep doing what they're doing. The drinking for free is costing Tony and his speakeasy a lot of money that he doesn't have to spare. On top of all the other costs like the wood alcohol, the oysters. And also a month has passed since they took out the life insurance policies. So now the first premium payment are due.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, they're spending money on this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're spending a lot of money that nobody has. It's like the problem starts that we don't have any money, right? So now it's like chasing good money after bad. Figuring out how to move forward isn't easy though, because now there's eight men pitching ideas and it's chaos. And it's chaos filled with very, very dumb ideas.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. Attacks in a fucking sardine sandwich.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Attacks in a sardine sandwich was like one of the good ones that made it all the way to production. So at one point, one of the men suggests they shoot Michael. But then he's reminded that it needs to look like a natural death. So they get the payout, right? So once again, a natural shooting. Just a very natural one. Look, it's natural here in New York. Once again, it's Francis Pasqua who decides what route they'll take. The men basically look back to how Tony killed Mabel Carlson. They get him drunk, he blacks out, throw him into the car. They get him out, they throw him into the park, strip him down, put him on a park bench, dump water all over him and leave.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Jesus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The next morning, none other than Michael Malloy shows up at Tony Marino speakeasy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's a little worse for wear. He is very cold and he can't remember how he wound outside the night before, but he's basically fine. The Murder Trust regroups again and they decide they're going to run Michael over with a car. This time they're gonna try to make it look like a hit and run. So they pull in yet another co conspirator, a 24 year old cab driver named Harry Green, who agrees to do the job for $150. Which is worth how much in today's money? 1,000, 3,700.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You say that as if I'm anywhere close. Appreciate you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm just trying to support you. I appreciate it because I love this game.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I hate it. I never even close.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So at the speakeasy, Joseph gets Michael blackout drunk again. Then some of the Murder Trust guys take Michael's body to a nearby road where there's not a lot of traffic. They put a Nicholas Mellory fake ID card in his pocket, lay him down on the road, and Harry Green hits Michael with the tires before reversing backwards over the body. Harry and the Murder Trust men flee the scene. The next morning, they pour over that day's newspaper. They're looking for the reports of a fatal hit and run. Nothing's there. Joseph Murphy, who is supposed to be the one that poses as Nicholas Mellory's next of kin, starts calling around to local hospitals and morgues, asking if anyone has seen his missing brother Nicholas. No one matches the name or description. So now the Murder Trust guys are losing it because they think they've finally done it. They have no proof of Nicholas Mellory's death to show their insurers, which means they can't claim the payout. So they're like stuck in this weird middle realm.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A limbo.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A limbo, some might say. And as they're freaking out about what they're gonna do, they start talking about, should they just get rid of this whole idea about Michael Malloy and just kill a random drunk who happens to walk into the speakeasy and just use that body as Nicholas Mellory? But five days after running Michael over, and before they can make good on the new plan, Michael waltzes into Tony's speakeasy, limping and bandaged, but ready for a drink.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's like, I know not everyone should procreate, you know, like me, but this guy, like, should pass those jeans on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Superhuman.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're Superhuman.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And also, what a great attitude. Truly, what a kind of like, try, try again. I'm gonna see my friend. Yeah. So sad. Incredibly, not long after being run over, Michael was discovered by a cop.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He was still clinging to life, lying in a nearby ditch. He was taken to a hospital, where he was diagnosed with a concussion, a fractured skull, and a fractured shoulder. After he stabilized and discharged, he came straight back to Tony's, still completely unaware that these were the people that did it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Poor guy. Like, go to a new bar.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, he's like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or stop drinking water.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's sandwiches.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's true.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sandwiches and free drinks. And he has absolutely no memory of being hit by a car.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The, I'm sorry to say, upside of being a drunk.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Those details don't. You know what it is, though? They come later in the night.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They come back.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. All of a sudden, you're, like, laying there like, wait, what? You've never had that? Where they come as, like, weird little fox.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My black cats are blacked out for life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's nice. Yeah, it is blacked out for life. I had one where, like, the next day, I was like, that was so fun at the bar last night. And then it was like. It looked like a Polaroid picture of this guy that I liked going like this. Oh. And I was like, oh, no. I tried to kiss him. I tried to kiss him, and he was like, no, no, no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, God. Like, slowly. Like a Polaroid slowly developing in front of your face.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wait, a face is. Why is that look on his face?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, mine are gone. Thank fucking God. Until Vince tells them to me, and I'm like, don't talk to me about this now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's his fault. It's his fault you talked to me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I did not. No, I didn't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I didn't. That's not true. Okay, so now the Murder Trust guys are in deep. They have insurance premiums due, and now they have a personal extra grind with Michael Malloy because they're that kind of guy. So they pivot again. They decide to rent out an apartment in Nicholas Mellory's name, where, basically, it's a few blocks from speakeasy. Of course, it has gas nozzles, gas hookups for the lighting fixtures. On February 23, 1933, which is three months into this whole ordeal, they give Michael Malloy wood alcohol at the speakeasy until he blacks out. They carry him to this apartment, lock him inside, open up those gas nozzles, and this is what kills Michael Malloy when they go Back to make sure he's dead. Francis Pasqua asks a specific Bronx doctor, who he knows through his business as an undertaker, to show up at the apartment and claim Michael, who is now Nicholas Mellory, has died of pneumonia. And in exchange for that, frances promises this doctor $100 of the increasingly spoken for insurance payout.

[Georgia Hardstark]

$3,000.

[Karen Kilgariff]

$2,400.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Damn it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was pretty close. But just one day after murdering Michael Malloy, the murder trust guys bury his body in a cheap box in a pauper's grave. A day after that, Francis shows up to the respective insurance office asking for the payout. Metropolitan Life gives him $800. Which is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which is 4, 5, 7. $20,000.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, $20,000. 4, 5, 20,000 in today's money. But the prudential agents are extremely suspicious.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, like they care more than the cops do about this, you know, they have literally more to lose.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it's all about money, baby. And they want to see the body. So Frances tells them that won't be possible. Nicholas Mellory has already been buried. So now the insurers are launching an investigation. So this is very bad news for the murder Trust, of course, but they internally are having problems. They only have 8, $800 from Metropolitan that they're divvying up among 10 people at this point, and that isn't going well. They're fighting. Some people are demanding more money than others. The whole thing is descending into serious chaos. And of course, it bubbles over into physical violence. Joseph Maglioni whips out a gun and shoots Tough Tony Bastoni in the speakeasy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In his speakeasy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In the speakeasy?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, it's not his speakeasy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I know, I know. I meant, like, he shoots him in the speakeasy. Wears that on your body, you know, like the breadbasket.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's the soft room or whatever the British call it. When the cops arrive, they arrest Maglione, but they also take Joseph Murphy into custody as a material witness to Tough Tony's murder.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, Tony dies.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Tough Tony dies.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So at the time, these cops are oblivious that these guys are wrapped up in the murder of Michael Malloy. They don't even know who Michael Malloy is yet. But they start chatting with regulars at the speakeasy while investigating the Tough Tony shooting. And those interviewees start to tell them everything, because this is just a room full of drunks eating sandwiches and going to the bathroom.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Going to the bathroom behind a curtain, a bead curtain. Definitely not washing their hands afterwards.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no, no. Where?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, the toilet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no. Yeah. It's a room full of drunks.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it's rough. So it turns out these witnesses know so much because they've either overheard these guys talking at the bar. Cuz when you're drunk, you're too loud.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Uhhuh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or they were approached about joining the conspiracy by the Murder Trust, but they weren't interested. Or maybe they were just a drunk that had some ethics. And we're like, no, I don't. I don't want to. I don't want to kill anybody. I just want a drink at a bar.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, thank you. I just want a sardine sandwich.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, do you want.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But then they kept going to that bar. Like, that's weird.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There weren't that many. It was like you had to find one to go to. You had to let you password.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, you're right. Okay, I hear you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You had to be into going to the bathroom in public. My grandma had a beaded curtain in between her kitchen and like the living room.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And there was. It was like the beginning of my days of loving. I was go through it. Be like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It just felt so like a fucking. Like you were on stage. Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like glamorous action. So just me picturing that when it was like, wait, what? Just. Hi, everybody. I went to the bathroom also. Could you imagine what it smelled like in this fucking place?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I was like, the hand washing thing was part of that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No door sardines.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The smell of old drunk person's piss was. And like, the aim had to be so bad. Oh, no, the aim.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean. Okay, let me read this paper.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Would you please? Talk about smells.

[Karen Kilgariff]

One witness knows the ins and outs of all these plans so well. Simply from hanging out there, he can point officers to the exact spot where Michael Malloy was buried.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just from overhearing it. So in May of literally. Seriously, if you do anything in this life, please keep your voice down.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Shut the fuck up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just truly, if you gotta talk, whisper. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Someone's always listening. That's what you. You need to assume at all times. Why not like here?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like here, right now? It's as if microphones are on you at all times.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay?

[Karen Kilgariff]

In May 1933, which is a month or so after Michael was killed, his body is exhumed and a pathologist determines that he has died of carbon monoxide poisoning, not pneumonia. At this point, investigators have also heard about Tony's scheme involving Mabel Carlson. Her body is exhumed and while it's unclear if her cause of death is ever formally reclassified, investigators do establish clear similarities between her and Michael's cases. It doesn't seem like anyone's ever charged in Mabel's death.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Poor woman.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's hard to suss out, though.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So by now, the police have enough information to arrest the Murder Trust gang. Tony Marino, Francis Pasqua, Daniel Kreisberg, bartender Joseph Murphy, cab driver Harry Green, all charged with first degree murder. Their trials begin in October of 1933. It's all wrapped up in two weeks. Most of the men are sentenced to death, with Harry Green avoiding the death penalty and instead going to Sing Sing for several years on a felonious assault conviction.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's the cab driver.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. He came in, like, very late in the game. So this is a horrible story that is just odd beating, but ultimately incredibly tragic and horrible. But if there is a silver lining, it's the enduring legacy of Michael Malloy himself. Cause despite the actions of the men who conspired to mur and saw no value in his life, the country at large comes to feel very differently about him. Because, of course, this story is so crazy. It gets national coverage across the United States. Readers learn of the so called durable barfly who just wouldn't die. And they find it weirdly inspiring. It's the Great Depression.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it's like everything's coming at you. They come at you with everything and you get back up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow. And that idea, it's like an inspirational fucking story.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So over time, Michael Molloy's name has stuck around in the zeitgeist, earning one colorful nickname after the other. Iron Mike, the Rasputin of the Bronx, and even the man who wouldn't die. These names might come as a surprise to the people who bumped into Michael Malloy during his life. But as writer Simon Reed has put it, quote, he arrived to the United States in obscurity and lived in anonymity. But through he would achieve cult immortality. That's the story of the ill fated battle to murder Michael Malloy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Isn't that fucking nuts?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Carpet tacks and broken glass.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And sardines aren't great either.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And sardines. And still the answer is no, I will not die.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Amazing. And kept a positive attitude about it, too. Like, it seems like kept a drunken attitude about it. Walked right back into that bar.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Open tab. I'm coming back tomorrow. Yeah, I still know the password.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I still want a sandwich. That's amazing. Great job, Wild. Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Kind of a nice inspirational way for us to start off 2026. It can be a little later in the year for other people, but.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, well, you know, you can start it whenever you want. Like dry January. You can start whenever you want.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's very true. And also Chinese New Year is coming up, so.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So do it then.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Should we think of a new way to end the episodes? Tenure or 2026 or like, what do you think? Yes. All right, well come back next week, you guys, because the 10 year anniversary is going to be full of surprises. I'm going to wear tinfoil.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, tinfoil dresses, briefcases.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you have one?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, I don't know if it qualifies because I can't remember. Did we say we had to get them at thrift stores?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, but they're vintage. I think we did, but who fucking cares at this point?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I got mine at Marshall's. That's all I'm saying.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, okay. So how are we doing this? We're just presenting each other with, hey, look, here's my.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I guess we have to figure out the whole idea. We talked about it so long ago. To me it feels like we literally talked about this in the summertime.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, we did before that. Probably before that. If I had a uterus. Last time we talked about this, that's how fucking long it's been. What do you. How should we end this? Like on a positive note somehow? Like, tell us. Hey, everyone, tell us what you were doing. Oh, we were doing that. Tell us what you're doing 10 years ago and what you're doing now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah, that's right. We were asking people. We know we have changed and what we have gone through and grown. There's a lot of people that when they write in, they kind of tell us at the end if they have like minisode stories where it's like, when I first started listening, I was in college, I did this. Now I'm a doctor, we've heard. Or anything in between.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We should read some of those next week for our 10 year anniversary. And we're gonna have a special guest too, that we won't let. I'll surprise you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yes, a very exciting special guest. So if you want to tell us your 10 year arc of being a Murderino, we would love to hear it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My favorite murder mail.com or just comment on our Instagram or just DM us on Instagram or email us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, there's lots of different ways to do it. Yeah, you can figure it out and.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, let's. How about you dress your pet up in tinfoil to send us photos of your aunt.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I stand against that. I will quit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know, Elvis was so afraid of tinfoil that we would put it around the Christmas tree so he wouldn't go climb it. Yes. Tin foil and bananas. He hated both. So we would circle the Christmas tree tree with tin foil and bananas.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's hilarious.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That was very cute.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, that's full circle.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think we just should end it. Stay sexy and don't get murdered. That's all we can do, really.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye, Elvis. Do you want a cookie?

[Karen Kilgariff]

This has been an exactly right production.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Our senior producer is Molly Smith and our associate the producer is Tessa Hughes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This episode was mixed by Liana Squillacci.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our researchers are Mary McGlashan and Ali Elkin.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Email your hometowns to my favorite murdermail.com.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And follow the show on Instagram at. My favorite murder.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Listen to my favorite murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or you can Watch us on YouTube. Search for my favorite murder, then like and subscribe.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thanks for listening. Murderinos.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If you're still craving more true crime with a twist, don't forget his and Hers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's the small town murder mystery show that'll keep you up at night wondering who you can really trust.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Secrets, lies and anyone could be the killer. What more could you want?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Watch his and hers now only on Netflix. Goodbye.