516 - End Quote

Summary

My Favorite Murder – Episode 516: "End Quote"

Air Date: January 22, 2026
Hosts: Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Network: Exactly Right and iHeartPodcasts

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Episode Overview

In this milestone episode, Karen and Georgia celebrate nearly a decade of My Favorite Murder by diving into both a classic true crime case—the murder of Dorothy Donovan—and a lighter, headline-grabbing legal drama, the Gwyneth Paltrow ski trial. The duo balances their trademark mix of dark humor and sincere commentary, tackling current events, pop culture, and gratitude for their listeners.

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Table of Contents

• Opening Banter: The State of the World & MFM’s Mood
• Current Events, Empathy, and Activism
• Pop Culture Break: “Heated Rivalry” & TV Escapism
• 10-Year Anniversary Gratitude & Behind-the-Scenes
• Exactly Right Network & Merch Updates
• True Crime Story: The Murder of Dorothy Donovan
• Notable Segment: Quotes & Format Changes
• Pop Culture True Crime: Gwyneth Paltrow Ski Trial
• Wrap-up: Giving Back & Final Thoughts
• Notable Quotes
• Timestamps

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Opening Banter: The State of the World & MFM’s Mood

03:09–04:41

• Karen and Georgia open with playful greetings and joke about using their “pro podcasting voices”.
• They quickly turn to the heaviness of current events and how it’s hard to ignore the grim news on TikTok and elsewhere.
• They express a sense of duty to keep talking about these issues, even if their weekly stories feel frivolous by comparison.
  • “How do we do this when the world is such a mess?” – Georgia (03:22)
  • “Everything I see on TikTok is horrifying, but I don’t want to look away.” – Karen (03:28)

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Current Events, Empathy, and Activism

04:41–07:55

• The hosts passionately discuss ICE raids, police overreach, and the treatment of immigrant communities in the U.S.
• Both express horror and disgust at the inhumanity they’re witnessing in the news.
  • “If you hate people who are trying to make their families lives better by coming to this country… Where’s your empathy?” – Georgia (05:13)
• They highlight grassroots activism and local resistance as a source of inspiration, referencing youth protest movements.

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Pop Culture Break: “Heated Rivalry” & TV Escapism

07:56–12:59

• In an effort to lighten the mood, Georgia raves about the new queer sports romance series “Heated Rivalry”—shouting out her friend Jacob Tierney as the creator.
• They discuss the joy and function of pop culture as “visual opiates” in dark times.
  • “As things get nightmarish, then there’s just… visual opiates to get away, definitely.” – Karen (09:51)
• Honest confession: Karen hasn’t watched it yet because it would be awkward with her dad.
• The segment veers into talk of media and self-image, referencing their recent Hollywood Reporter profile and the way women scrutinize their appearances.

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10-Year Anniversary Gratitude & Behind-the-Scenes

13:06–13:49

• Karen & Georgia acknowledge their “incredible” audience after a decade:
  • “Thank you for all the love and the beautiful comments… so nice. So much love!” – Georgia (13:06)
• They reflect on success, luck, and the challenge of accepting good things.

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Exactly Right Network & Merch Updates

13:51–17:40

• The hosts provide updates from Exactly Right Media:
  • “Two-Faced John of God,” a new dual-language true crime podcast, is launching in February (14:36).
  • My Favorite Murder is coming to Netflix—with back catalog and new episodes/minisodes premiering in late January.
  • Merch updates: tour hats, totes, pins (which are actually magnets), and the ongoing Karen-picks-black, Georgia-picks-pink merch tradition.

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True Crime Story: The Murder of Dorothy Donovan

19:02–43:41

Case Introduction

Karen covers the harrowing true crime story from Delaware, unraveling the murder of Dorothy Donovan (June 23, 1991):

• The case kicks off when factory worker Charles Holden discovers a lurker near his trailer late at night, then calls 911 (24:22).
• Charles’ elderly mother, Dorothy Donovan, is found brutally murdered in her nearby farmhouse.
• Investigators suspect Charles—thanks to a “far-fetched” account involving a hitchhiker, insurance motives, and family doubts.

Investigation Details

• Blood and fingerprints at the scene don’t belong to the family.
• Charles’ story about a hitchhiker is initially dismissed by police and his own family as implausible.
  • “Only an idiot would believe that story.” – Officer to Charles (33:08)
• Years pass with Charles under suspicion, as “hitchhiker” leads go cold.

Breakthrough & Resolution

• A breakthrough occurs more than a decade later with the advent of CODIS DNA matching (38:20).
• Gilbert Cannon, whose DNA matches the crime scene, confesses and corroborates Charles’ original version of events—the murder was a tragic, random act of violence.
• Charles, after 16 years, is exonerated to the relief (and regret) of his family.
  • “We were all in court and we all went to eat afterwards. We’re working on it, but it’s going to take time.” – Charles’ sister, Brenda (43:33)

Segment Tone

• Emphasizes the emotional and family fallout of wrongful suspicion.
• Classic forensic storytelling with empathy for all involved.

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Notable Segment: Quotes & Format Changes

27:27–27:50

• Joking about Netflix requirements, Karen and Georgia wonder if they now need to say “end quote” on air.
  • “We have to start saying end quote because we’re on Netflix.” – Karen (27:27)
  • Playful debate ensues about podcasting style versus journalism.

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Pop Culture True Crime: Gwyneth Paltrow Ski Trial

46:20–71:19

Case Introduction

Georgia recaps the viral legal battle between Gwyneth Paltrow and retired doctor Terry Sanderson:

• 2016 skiing collision on Deer Valley’s “Bandana” run results in Terry’s injury.
• Competing claims: Who hit whom—from uphill, from behind?
  • “Who was the uphill skier? Every ski resort has a posted code of rules… and among these rules is that downhill skiers have the right of way.” – Georgia (53:49)

Legal Circus & Cultural Moment

• Lawsuit filed for $3 million, later reduced to $300,000.
• Gwyneth countersues for a symbolic $1.
• CourtTV broadcasts the trial; testimony becomes meme fodder.
  • “Well, I lost half a day of skiing.” – Gwyneth (on stand, 61:55)
• Terry’s health and lifestyle questioned—did the accident truly ruin his life?

Verdict & Viral Aftermath

• Gwyneth wins. On exiting, she famously whispers to Terry:
  • “I wish you well.” (67:40)
• The hosts debate whether it’s petty or sincere (they lean sincere).
• Both reflect on celebrity, public perception, internet culture, and the nature of lawsuit-driven “true crime.”
  • “This must happen to her or that type of person non fucking style. Like you just can’t win. Anything you say is going to be torn apart.” – Georgia (63:01)

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Wrap-up: Giving Back & Final Thoughts

72:55–73:39

• The hosts announce a $25,000 donation to the ACLU, urging listeners to get involved however they can.
• Reflection on the “pivotal moment” of current events and the importance of compassion, activism, and being on the right side of history.

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Notable Quotes

• “How do we do this when the world is such a mess?”
  — Georgia (03:22)
• “Fuck ice. What are we doing? What is fucking happening?”
  — Georgia (04:19)
• “What’s wrong with you? I’m so disgusted.”
  — Karen (05:24)
• “As things get nightmarish, then there’s just… visual opiates to get away.”
  — Karen (09:51)
• “Only an idiot would believe that story.”
  — Officer to Charles (33:08)
• “It’s the end of the world. Here’s some cute thing. Here’s a cat meme.”
  — Georgia (11:45)
• “Who was the uphill skier?... Downhill skiers have the right of way.”
  — Georgia (53:49)
• “I wish you well.”
  — Gwyneth Paltrow to Terry Sanderson (67:40)
• "Thank you, dear."
  — Terry Sanderson’s response (68:49)
• “I don’t feel as bad as I thought I would at the end of this story.”
  — Georgia (72:20)
• “Stay sexy and don’t get murdered.”
  — Georgia (73:40)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Opening Banter & Heavy News: 03:09–07:55
• Heated Rivalry & Escapist TV: 07:56–12:59
• Exactly Right Network & Merch: 13:51–17:40
• Dorothy Donovan Case: 19:02–43:41
  • Case discovery: 24:22
  • Suspicion falls on Charles: 28:49
  • Break in case/DNA breakthrough: 38:20
  • Final exoneration: 43:33
• Gwyneth Paltrow Ski Trial: 46:20–71:19
  • Collision details: 51:06
  • Trial testimony & memes: 61:04
  • Verdict & “I wish you well”: 67:40
• ACLU Donation & Call to Action: 72:55–73:39

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Tone, Style & Listener Experience

• The episode is classic MFM: irreverent, emotionally honest, and community-oriented.
• Current events are discussed with urgency and empathy.
• The true crime story is handled with respect and clear storytelling.
• The pop culture segment (Gwyneth Paltrow trial) is dissected with both snark and sincerity.
• Behind-the-scenes gratitude and anniversary celebrations foreground the podcast’s longevity and fanbase.

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Conclusion

Episode 516, “End Quote,” showcases My Favorite Murder at its best—a blend of dark true crime, comedic rapport, pop culture savvy, and empathetic reflection. From serious social commentary to the absurdities of Goop celebrity lawsuits, Karen and Georgia keep listeners engaged, informed, and laughing, even as they urge everyone to “stay sexy and don’t get murdered.”

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“I wish you well, end quote.” — Georgia (68:16)

Transcript

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye Hello, It's Karen and Georgia here to tell you about our brand new limited series podcast today 2 face John of God. Produced by Exactly Right Media and Adande.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Media, the series tells the story of a Brazilian spiritual healer who claimed his so called miraculous surgeries could cure the incurable. Drawing desperate people from around the world.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hosted by award winning journalist Martina Castro, two Faced John of God investigates how belief, power and silence allowed this story to go on for decades and the brave survivors who fought to bring it to light.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And we're proud to announce that Two Faced John of God will be released in both English and Spanish language versions starting Wednesday, February 4th, with new episodes every Wednesday.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You can follow Two Faced John of God now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And for our Spanish speaking listeners, Dos Caras Juan de Dios is available on Espanol in your favorite podcast apps. Adios, My fav.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hello and welcome to my favorite murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's Georgia Heartstark.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's Karen Kilgariff.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We like podcasting. Do you?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can you hear how much we like it in our voices?

[Karen Kilgariff]

These are our pro podcasting voices.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, how do we do this when the world is such a mess? How do I.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, it is just the current also. It's like the world is a mess. Everything I see on TikTok is horrifying, but I don't want to look away.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know I can't look. It's driving me. I'm going crazy. I was laying in bed earlier just fucking being like, everything's a mess. Now go put on makeup and fucking contour your cheekbones. And podcasts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But here's the thing, because we got to play in Minnesota before, in Minneapolis, watching what those people are doing and watching how those people are taking aback and being like, these are just thugs and we're going to fucking treat them like thugs. It's so inspiring. And it's so like. Like they're just not. They're not letting up and they're not.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Letting fear hold them down.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, they're. It's just very empowering for everybody else to be seeing. I hope they know that. And it's just insanity.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck ice. What are we doing? What is fucking happening?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's clearly. Fuck ice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What is fucking happening? It's the fucking Gestapo.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it's the Gestapo. And they're attacking people who are intrinsic to this nation totally in every way. Totally. And not just like people always talk about the work. It's like, these are people who were here first. Yeah, fucking. How about that? Here first. And then basically built up like they were talking about there was some story out in Minneapolis. ICE agents eating dinner in a Mexican restaurant and then arresting the workers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Where it's like, well, then there is no line then.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, there is none.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's no line. These people are berserking and they have to be treated as such.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's fucking terrifying. I'm a white woman. I'm not saying that I'm terrified for my. It's terrifying that this is happening to everyone, to other people, and I'm fucking so horrified by it. Also, it's. If you hate people who are trying to make their families lives better by coming to this country, like, where. What's wrong with. Where's your empathy? That's. They're not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What's wrong with you?

[Georgia Hardstark]

What's wrong with you? I'm so. I'm so disgusted.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, I saw a thing where there's all this trickery in those ICE contracts. So they think they're getting paid all this money, but if they quit, they have to pay it back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And there's all like. There's all these stipulations in there where it's like, of course you're getting. This is a contract with Donald Trump. This man does not pay people. This is not a person who has ever historically kept his word.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is a fucking liar and a monster and a megalomaniac and a criminal dictator pedophile. Like, what?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Anyways, this is our first episode on Netflix.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Imagine.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are we allowed?

[Karen Kilgariff]

So are we allowed?

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is unprecedented fucking times.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, it's. No, I'm glad you said it. And I feel like we've been saying it all the way along, but we haven't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. I just want to say it before, because my fucking story is so trivial and like that I'm going to tell you today. And so fucking unimportant in the scheme of things that I feel.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did you see the Golden Globes? Like, no one said a word.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did you see Mark Ruffalo on the red carpet? He said thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And Wanda Sykes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, of course. Like, fuck. I know. We can't not say anything.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The fact that it's escalating.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Exactly, Exactly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, listen, here's what I am very inspired by, because as I am addicted to TikTok, I can see what the children are doing and saying. And high schools are walking out and joining those protests in Minneapolis or joining the people who are right on the front line, where those risking their lives. Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And also for other people, you know, and harassing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I saw a woman who was just harassing people in San Diego who went in to submit for the job, and she was just like. It was like a comedy roast. She was just saying awful shit to them as they were walking away. And it is like, the most satisfying because she's like, what are you doing?

[Georgia Hardstark]

What Kind of person is like, yeah, that's what I want to do. Someone who shouldn't have any authority. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What if we change the subject to something so insane and different from it that it'll just feel like we're going to break the bone here.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I've got it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And be topical.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Heated rivalry. I've got it. We have. We are on the pulse of the fucking TikTok generation.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're on the pulse of the distraction generation, where horrors rise up in front of us on a daily basis.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then you have to go on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And you go like, yes, yes. Where do we send our money? What do we do? How do we help? And then also, get this off me, please. Rinse my eyes. This is horrifying. Heated rivalry.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love it. It's so sexy. And, oh, my God, it's everything. And it took me a minute to get into the first episode. It took me, like, three times to watch it because I kept getting these funny memes about it that made me want to keep watching it, and I'm so glad I stuck with it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That sounds kind of like a boy's excuse of, like. I had to rewatch that sex scene over and over because I just. I don't know. I wasn't into it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, well, I didn't know I was into that, honestly. I know my friends are. My girlfriends are like, that's. They're fucking into that. And I didn't know I was until I watched this fucking show.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then I'm like, well, kind of undeniable.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Where's my porn?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm just so. To watch it kind of unfold on social media. And it's my friend Jacob Tierney, who I've talked about on this podcast all the time, and it's like, his baby. What a success. There was a guy that was filming, like, the final episode, and. Did I say this already? He was standing on Santa Monica and all four bars were playing it, and the bars were packed, and there was people, like, spilling outside. And he just was, like, going, like, in West Hollywood. Yep. I was just like, oh, my.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God, it's so beautiful.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Look at what he made.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's just so incredible.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And he's so deserving. He's so smart and talented and so hilarious, and it's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then. What's his name? Connor. Connor Story.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Connor Story. God damn it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's not even Russian.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I didn't know these things when I started watching. I didn't know who it was. And now I know everything about him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What a fucking Cutie pie, please come do a podcast at Exactly Right Media, so we can just have you in the office every day.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can you imagine what that guy's life is like right now? Where everyone, girls, boys, whoever, are just like, I want to sleep with you right now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ass is fucking mothman level. Mothman statue level. Cakes. Oh, my God, Cakes. I'm blushing and I'm objectifying someone, and I feel.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Jojo, you're a perv.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I feel bad about it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, it's really fun. I think it's the kind of, you know, as things get nightmarish, then there's just, like, a little bit of opiates. It's visual opiates to get away, definitely. But then emotional, like, actually really deep.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The, like, love scene, not them. But this other love scene is so fucking beautiful and lovely.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I. I have to be honest right now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know I haven't seen it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's why I was. Sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I feel like the biggest liar. Cause I'm, like, sitting here, like, and it's great. But I was at my dad's house.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah. Good luck brushing it with your dad.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you want to try this? Oh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can you imagine?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

My dad, who gets up and slams the newspaper down when, like, a sex scene starts. Like, that's the only way he's ever reacted my entire life. Where if you're watching a movie, he's like, good night. Oh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And he can't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I didn't fucking make this movie. But that. And then, you know, it's just like, I want to sit down and binge the entire thing, but I have to do it because I'm going to see him really soon.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, you got to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And my faking of like. Yep.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's great. Yeah. I mean, you know, it is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's the smartest person and the funniest person. But also, he started as a child actor when he was, like, 7 years old.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What was he. Did he write?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Letterkenny.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Letterkenny, okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And Shoresy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. Yeah. So that's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He wrote and directed Letterkenny and directed Shoresy. And I think co wrote it, but then I think he did. Rivalry is all his, so.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I remember his name is, like, on. And I'm like, I know that name.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Created by. He read the. He's like, I don't know. There's these smutty hockey books that I think I'm gonna try to option. And that was like, of course, two years ago or something like that. I know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Incredible.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's very, very exciting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, we contain multitudes here. The justification of the juxtaposition of my favorite murder on this podcast, I mean, is heated.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is the world everyone's in right now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just like, here's the TV I love. Here's the tears streaming down their face.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's the end of the world. Here's some cute thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Here's a cat meme.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can I just carve out one second to make a joke? Cause I know anytime I do this, people, like, yell at me and then compliment me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are you talking about our beautiful fucking article in the Hollywood Reporter written by journalist Mikey o'? Connell? He was so cool.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, it's amazing if a journalist that's talking to us also listens because then they're kind of like, I remember when a thing happened.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Insider baseball.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What's your version of it? We're like, yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We can't tell that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it was very nice. My joke that I want to say without anybody telling me anything is that in that first picture, it looks like I'm doing an impression of Peter Falk. I don't understand why I can't just take a picture and smile. It is. I've been traumatized. It's like, I'm not. And it's like, see you. I've been traumatized by show business.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All I saw. Can I tell you what I saw and was like, these beautiful photos with great lighting and great makeup. And I was like, my hands look old. Like, it's just. We just do that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, you're right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We just go to that immediately.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know. It's like, you have to, to. It's like, what is the next problem I'm gonna solve? But I don't know why. It's like. It's like I'm holding an invisible cigar in my mouth.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I didn't see it. Listen, listen, look and listen at how complicated life can be.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Look at how superficial we absolutely are in the face of everything else that we are also holding and how lucky we are.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And you guys have been so incredible in our 10 year anniversary week. Thank you for all the love and the beautiful comments and just so much, so nice. So much love.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So nice. I also didn't mean to be so sneaky. Sliding topic in. But it feels like when it rains, it pours. And for us, we have been so lucky and oh, my God, from like tour on, things have just been so lovely. And I feel like, humbled and grateful that they keep showing up for us.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, we know how fucking lucky we are. My new thing, maybe you should smoke a cigar. Maybe that's your new look.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think so.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I like it. And a hot.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, yeah. I'm getting that kind of Russian masseuse vibe going. So I think a cigar is really the only option.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, well, should we do some Exactly Right Media? Should we do some business? Because, listen, we still have to run this company.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We absolutely do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We have a podcast network called Exactly Right Media. And here's some business highlights over on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Dear Movies, I love you. Millie and Casey are feeling the heat as they revisit the 1998 classic How Stella Got Her Groove Back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Plus screenwriter Chris Thomas Devlin joins them to talk about his area of expertise.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then over on I said no Gifts, Bridger does his best not to make it a thing. When Corn Wells forces a gift on him. Anyway. Brings him a gift. He said no gifts. They brought him a gift. They insist they get into Toni Braxton's family using hinge dates as tour guides and whether rabbits are an underrated protein source.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, you've got to listen. And the trailer's out now for our newest podcast, Two Faced John of God. And it's our first dual language podcast. So it will be available, of course, in English and now in sp. The Spanish feed is called Dos Caras Juan de Dios. And it premieres February 4th. Follow everywhere you get your podcast.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're so proud of this. You've done so much work on this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so exciting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This has been in the works for so long. It's very exciting.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It has. And Adante Media, the company that we're doing it with, Martina Castro is the journalist. That's her company. She's the loveliest person she's gonna be on the podcast, so we can talk to her about it in person, obviously. But as a company, they've just been the coolest. They're so good at what they do and they're so fun and collaborative.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I can't wait for the world to hear it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it's great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then, as we said, my Favorite Murder is officially heading to Netflix. So on January 26, six back catalog episodes will be up on the My Favorite Murderer Netflix channel. Check it out. Followed by the first brand new full episode on January 28 and the first new minisode. I'm drawing a lot of dates at everyone. The first new minisode is on January 30th. They're all streaming exclusively on Netflix.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exclusively on Netflix, where they now show video podcasts. Here's what I love about this. Every other episode, it's Just gonna go like our normal thing. So it's a full episode and then minisodes. Full episode minisodes. I love the idea that people get to like a really broad group of people could get to try out the little taster of minisodes. I think people are gonna really like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Minisodes and I think that means we're gonna get a lot more great emails sent in of minisodes. Like, it's just gonna ramp up the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, you know what it means.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Stories after stories.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, we're gonna need a mail room. Okay. Over in merch Corner, Nicole is here to remind us that our 2025 tour merch is now available in the exactly right store. Go grab your tour hats and totes and all the apparel from our live shows.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. At Where?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Over on exactlyrightstore.com quantities are limited, so please rush and push other people out of the way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, and we have a quick merch show off thing. You have these fucking adorable pins everybody love.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, wait.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And they are.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know what they are?

[Georgia Hardstark]

What are they?

[Karen Kilgariff]

They are magnets.

[Georgia Hardstark]

How do they even work? And then you get a cute little case to put your joints in too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Magnets.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. Magnets.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wait, oh wait, what are we doing?

[Georgia Hardstark]

We've got magnets.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Magnets.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Magnets. Fuck. Politeness. Koozie here. That's so cute, my girly. Pink.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I always get like, it's either black or pink. And each of us get like. Cause Karen wants all black stuff, I want all pink stuff. Gray is the common denominator one, I think. Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Especially with a nice red flag.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. So the MFM flag. Red flag looks amazing. And I have this pink buck politeness. Definitely getting one for Vince. Say that cause he is comfortable in his masculinity and will wear pink.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's not a fucking toxic male.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's a real close horse. You know, he loves real style.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He does. Him and his wife penguin show. You want to get in on that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Anyway, okay. Merch business is over.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Capitalism will save us all.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's the other thing is like can I stop consuming in 2026? I'm just not. I don't need any more of it. I don't need any more organizational fucking things and fucking plastic bullshit and fucking things that are going to fix my life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I gotta tell you, I'm very much on that track with you. I was gonna buy this little two level shelf to put coffee mugs on, right. And I was like, what am I doing?

[Georgia Hardstark]

They can just go on the surface.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't need this. Stop it. I have to pair it all the way back to lip balms and lip liners. Cause it's like it's just a little something new every once in a while. But the mass consumption is not working for me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Things aren't gonna fix your life. Cats and dogs are.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that's really true.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Take them outside.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Foster them so you don't have to commit. Cause we know you are a commitment phobe. That's totally fine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cut to me with the 10 dogs in a room. Like what?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Adaption fail on all of them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Uh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, okay. Stop it. Okay, this is the. All right, here we are. I just. I'm thinking of people watching this on Netflix for the first time, not knowing what this podcast is and just being so.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Click away. Click away now while you can.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is like. This is pretty much what it's like, actually.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But here's also what it's like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

On episode 402 entitled Staunch Women, I covered the story of civil rights pioneer Claudette Colvin. She was basically the first Rosa Parks. She did it when she was 15 years old. She would not get up when some white person demanded her seat on an Alabama bus. And she died on January 13th of natural causes. She was 86 years old. And her namesake foundation released the statement saying, quote, it is with profound sadness that the Claudette Colvin foundation and family announced the passing of Claudette Colvin, a beloved mother, grandmother, and civil rights pioneer. She leaves behind a legacy of courage that helped change the course of American history.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Incredible. What a legacy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And someone to read about and study. Listen to this episode and learn how to resist.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's a new year and a new you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So to celebrate, why not get a new outfit from Quint's?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Quint's has all the staples covered. From soft Mongolian cashmere sweaters to 100% silk tops and skirts. Their wardrobe essentials are crafted to last season after season.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Check out their Italian wool coats. They look designer, feel luxurious, and are made with premium materials.

[Georgia Hardstark]

By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen, Quince gives you luxury without the markup.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And like everything from Quince, each piece is made with premium materials in ethical, trusted factories. Then priced far below what other luxury.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Brands charge, they really are premium. I got a cashmere throw blanket from Quince. It is so soft, so cozy. I have to, like, beg my cats to let me use it because they are so obsessed with it and so am I.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The cashmere sweaters, they're now piling up in my room. I have so many. I love them so much.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Refresh your wardrobe with cool quints. Don't wait.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Go to quince.com mfm to get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com mfm to get free Shipping and 365 day returns.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Quince.com mfm Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Everyone wants to feel safe in their home.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's why home security from Simplisafe is designed to prevent problems before they start.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Traditional security is basically there to say, hey, someone got in. Simplisafe home security is different because it's built to stop crimes before they start.

[Karen Kilgariff]

SimpliSafe offers a double layer of protection. Their AI powered cameras can detect when someone's outside your home and alert live monitoring agents right away.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They can speak directly to the person through the camera, let them know they're being recorded, alert police, and even activate a siren or a spotlight if needed. One of the reasons I love having security cameras around my house is because Cookie barks at like everything, which I'm so proud of her. She's supposed to do that. That's like my first line of defense. Then the next one is check all the cameras. If I couldn't do that step every time that she barked, I would be freaking out constantly. Like I can't imagine not being able to see what she's barking at. It's usually nothing, but what if it is something?

[Karen Kilgariff]

So protect your home with SimpleLife and get 50% off any new system. For a limited time, just go to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Simplisafe.Com fave again, that's simplisafe.com fav and lock in your discount.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's no safe like SimpliSafe.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Life. Goodbye. Bye. It's a new year and it's time to make your house a home.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Turn your living room into your favorite destination with Article.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They offer a curated range of mid century, modern, coastal and Scandi inspired pieces that not only shine on their own, but also pair seamlessly with other article products.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Article takes great care in curating its collection, focusing solely on high quality, meaningful pieces that will stand the test of time. There's no filler. Every item is chosen for its craftsmanship, design and lasting value.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm kind of trying to judge up my backyard a little bit and I want to go out there more often. But the thing is, replacing the article furniture I already have out there that I've had for Three years is pointless because it's still in perfect condition. Yeah, it's mind blowing how nice this stuff still looks. So I'm kind of just adding some things instead of having to take anything away, which is so great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I totally agree. And what I really love about article is I look around my home and I have these items that I've collected over the years that I keep. I buy other furniture, but the article pieces are the ones that stay. I really do think they're the ones that stand the test of time. So if you're in the market for a beautiful new set, dining table or bed, head over to article.com.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye. I'm very excited about this story because it is truly a classic true crime case. And it's also a classic Forensic Files. So you and I probably have seen it recently because when we were on the road there were some classic forensic files that I was watching.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's crazy to me that people bring their computers and watch movies in hotel rooms. Like you have forensic files on 24. 7.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What are you doing from 9pm on? Like it's a lot.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Order those chicken strips and a Caesar salad and fucking cookies. Cookies. Go.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. This story begins in Kent County, Delaware, which is in the Dover metro area. We rarely talk about Delaware.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, we don't really do that, do we?

[Karen Kilgariff]

And we've never gone.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I dated someone from there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And you're still mad about it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Scrapple. That's all I know about it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Scrapple. That was his name.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Delaware.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hey, Delaware. Okay, it's near the town of Harrington. Okay, so this is the night of June 23rd, 1991. Okay, you're 11.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God. I am.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Uh huh. It's around midnight. A 41 year old man named Charles Holden pulls up to his trailer after finishing his shift at a factory job and he sees a man lurking nearby. He drives to a payphone. So this is back in the time of payphones?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Before cell phones. So weird. Who I know. So he calls 911. He tells the dispatcher there's a guy just lurking, lurking outside my house.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Got it, got it. Yeah, exactly. And then he asks for a police escort home. So he's really freaked out. When the dispatcher asks Charles if he's aware of anyone else being on the property, he tells them his 70 year old mother, Dorothy Donovan, lives in the farmhouse that his trailer is next to. So it's like his family property. Charles is certain this person that he saw outside was not his mother. He specifically tells the dispatcher, quote, I want to get someone there as soon as. Because I don't want him breaking into my mother's. So he's scared.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The police are dispatched to the property, and what they find inside the farmhouse is an absolute nightmare. Dorothy Donovan has been murdered. And as Detective Captain Greg Nolte will later remember, quote, it was a very bloody and brutal crime scene. Blood everywhere, blood spatters throughout the bedroom.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Jesus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

From that night. When the investigation begins, this case will sprawl out over several years and take some unbelievable twists and turns as police try to piece together what happened to this woman on that night in early summer in Harrington, Delaware. This is the story of the hunt for Dorothy Donovan's killer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And the main source used for the story Today is the 2008 episode of Forensic Files entitled Stranger in the Night, along with several articles that ran in the Delaware based News Journal newspaper. And the rest of the sources are in our show notes. Okay. So when investigators inspect Dorothy's farmhouse that night, they find the backdoor window has been shattered. So the presumption is the murder by reaching through that broken glass and unlocking the door from the inside. And one of the reasons they think that is because there's blood smeared around the scene. And forensic analysts conclude that that blood does not belong to Dorothy. Investigators also find several fingerprints and a partial palm print that are not hers. Police run through potential motives. They don't think it's a botched robbery because nothing's missing from the house. Dorothy's purse is, like, right there. There's the possibility that it's a sexually mot since Dorothy's body was discovered in her bedroom. Positioned in a way that leads investigators to consider this possibility. But really, the sheer brutality of this crime with Dorothy having been stabbed more than two dozen times all about her face and chest is indicative of overkill, which suggests that this is a very personal and a very angry attack. An FBI profiler quoted by the News Journal newspaper goes so far as to say, quote, some stranger did not break into the house, murder her, and leave. This is someone who knows the victim, knows her well, and knows that they can come here and that she will be the only victim in the house.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

End quote. Okay, we have to start saying end quote because we're on Netflix.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, shit. Are we journalists now?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. At least we have to say end quote.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I don't like it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Really?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You want to keep it loose and open. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You can tell by the tone of voice.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's really true.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't like end quote.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Write in if you think this whole thing has been a long quote since 2016, because I never say end quote, I don't either.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't want to. Okay, the end.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The end. So hearing this by an FBI profiler is very confusing to Dorothy's family because they're adamant this woman has no enemies. She lived a quiet life in her farmhouse after losing her husband a few years before. And she's a beloved mom of three and a grandmother to seven. She does not have enemies. So the motive's unclear. But one person who is being looked at very closely is Dorothy's son Charles, who made the 911 call. It's said that when Charles first sees his mother's body, he says, quote, I can't believe he killed her. I can't believe he killed her. Yeah. So the investigators, it piques their interest cause it's very specific. When they ask Charles who he is, he tells them he actually recognized the man he saw lurking on the property that night. He says he doesn't actually know him by name, but he claims that they'd had a chance encounter earlier the same evening. So? So he explains that after he clocked out from his 4 to 11pm shift at the factory job that day, he decides to stop at Hardee's to pick up some dinner. Now let's just take a break for a second so I can explain that Hardee's is the Midwest, Carl's Jr. You.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Know how recently I ate the Midwest.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Carl's Jr. How recently?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Two nights ago.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What did you travel?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm depressed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I have depression.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I see. You know, I mean, I'm sorry. Fast food gets it done for me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Carl's Jr. Is on another level for me. Like, it's a different.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What do you get?

[Georgia Hardstark]

A fucking Western bacon cheeseburger. Since I was a child, the skinny little girl pounding a fucking Western bacon cheeseburger and onion rings like nobody's business.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So you get onion rings on the side even though there's onion rings on that burger?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Uh huh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What kind of rebel are you?

[Georgia Hardstark]

A depressed one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A depressed one with depression. It works though. Like, first of all, what a great idea. Onion rings and barbecue sauce. Amazing. Those milkshakes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Have you?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I can't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you dare?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Get in there. It could cure your depression.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm the one who's like, won't even have a soda. You know what I mean? I'm just here for the food. I don't want an unhealthy soda. Fuck him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did I tell you the story of the time I was in the Wendy's drive through on Vermont and the guy was. I ordered. Ordered my thing and I was like, whatever. Cheeseburger and large fries and a medium diet. And he was like, why don't you just get the regular? And I literally let it hang for like five seconds. I was like, are you fucking kidding me, dude? And he was like, oh, sorry. Yep, Your total is $9.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You didn't go for the sure. Look. Look at me right now, though. What am I fucking talking about? I'm literally drinking a full day.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Here's the thing. Whether it's this, this is filled with beet juice. Go fuck yourself. We all get to do whatever we want.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I have a fucking full fat Coca Cola right now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Got to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I'm enjoying it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Whatever you want. Whatever you want to get you through. Full permission to our listenership. Get yourself through. Fight, fight, fight.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Go, go, go.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And we're back. Okay, so he stops at Hardee's, the Midwest, Carl's junior To get his food, goes inside, but then when he comes back out, he's crossing the parking lot and he is intercepted by a hitchhiker. I said, that's so weird. Should I always pronounce it that way? Charles describes him as a black man in his 30s with oversized glasses, standing around 5 foot 9, wearing a plaid shirt and brown dress pants. He claims that this man asked him for a ride to Georgetown, Delaware, which is like 25 miles away. And Charles told him he wasn't gonna drive all that way, but that he would take him down the road a few miles in the direction he was going if that would help him. And according to Charles, the hitchhiker took him up on this offer. When Charles is about half a mile from his own home, he tells the hitchhiker it's time for him to get out of the truck. But instead of getting out, Charles says this man's mood abruptly changes. He becomes irate and starts attacking Charles, demanding that he drive him all the way to Georgetown. Charles tells investigators he jumped out of the truck. He starts running away from the hitchhiker, who's now chasing him with a screwdriver that he took off the floor of Charles truck. And now he's threatening to kill Charles if he doesn't keep driving him all the way to Georgetown. So Charles says he tells the guy, okay, fine, I will do it. I'll drive you there. He calms him down a little bit. They both start walking back to the truck. And then Charles does the classic move where he just Takes off running, jumps into the truck, and takes off.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Jesus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it works. So he basically leaves this, like, violent hitchhiker standing in the middle of the street with a screwdriver in his hand. So Charles says he's terrified that this man is gonna follow the direction of the truck on, since it's only like, a half a mile away from where he lives, and that if he sees Charles truck on the property, he's gonna be like, I'm gonna go there. That's where he is. So Charles drives around for 20 minutes before he loops back and heads to the property. But when he pulls into the driveway, he sees the hitchhiker lurking, and that's when he drives away, sees a payphone, and makes the call to 911.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So the detectives hear this story out from Charles, but once he's done, they waste no time telling him that they don't believe a single word of it. It's so many coincidences. It's very rambling and random. And one of the officers actually tells Charles, quote, only an idiot would believe that story, unquote.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it does sound unlikely, especially when you consider this hitchhiker would have walked half a mile to Charles house, passing several other homes along the way, breaking in and brutally murdering a defenseless woman sleeping inside. But he. The truck isn't there. He wouldn't know it was the man who. He got into this fight with his mother. And then it's like, what, is that all supposed to be a coincidence?

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then also, like, this fight he got into would explain why there's, like, scratches and stuff like that. How convenient.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep. And, of course, there've been tens of thousands of crimes reported in this country where white people blame black people, a black man, for the crime, and they're lying. So they basically say, we don't buy it. Charles holds firm. He's adamant he's telling the truth. When investigators remain suspicious, they tell Charles, take a polygraph test. And Charles says no. So that's not really surprising in this day and age, because at this point, as we've talked about a lot, we know that polygraphs aren't very reliable. But this is 1991, where it's kind.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Of suspicious if you don't. If you say no, it's suspicious.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Everybody's like, this is a lock. Just like blood spatter. What are you. What's the problem?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So from here, police have to continue building the case. They create a composite sketch of Charles, purported hitchhiker, based on his description. They put it out to the public and actually, if you look through old newspaper articles about Dorothy Donovan's murder, you can see this composite sketch. It doesn't seem to have generated many leads. Meanwhile, the medical examiner's report comes back with more details about Dorothy's murder. It's based on the physical evidence that's being processed at the crime scene. But these findings only bring more questions. For example, the medical examiner is unable to find any evidence confirming sexual assault. So the sexual angle is. Has gotten rid of as a motive. And actually they start to think that maybe her body was like, posed in that slightly suggestive way to throw police off and lead them down that path. Then, and it's still early in the investigation, police get bombshell information. They learn that not long before Dorothy's death, she's taken out an accidental death insurance policy, and the beneficiary is her son, Charles. So. So then the detectives find out Charles is in debt. Who isn't? Although we don't know how much. But it does point to financial motivation. The police continue circling Charles as a suspect, but the tests show that his blood is not a match for the blood that was left at the scene. And the palm prints are clearly not a match. The police consider the theory now that Charles could have hired somebody else to commit the murder and then just go in for a cut of that life insurance payout. But the police don't have enough to arrest him. So they try to find out if there's anything about his hitchhiker story that is real. If this person actually exists, he could either be the murderer or he could be Charles accomplice. So maybe the hitchhiker story is Charles way of covering for himself if anyone saw him and that man together that night.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So detectives take that composite sketch of the man. They track down several people who were at Hardee's the night of Dorothy's murder. And they are able to confirm a huge piece of the story, which is that there was in fact a man in the parking lot that night approaching people and asking for a ride.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And he looks like the guy in the composite sketch. Investigators compile photos of men with criminal records who resemble this hitchhiker down to the oversized glasses. And every person in this photo lineup is wearing glasses. So when Charles is shown the pictures, he picks out the one that he believes was the hitchhiker. Police also showed these photos to other witnesses, and three of them identify that same man that Charles does. He's a 33 year old black man living in Harrington, Miles from the murder scene. He has a Criminal record, but he has never committed a violent crime. He's been convicted of forgery and petty theft. But now, given the multiple positive identifications, police think they might have their man. But when the officers show up to this man's house to question him, they immediately know that he couldn't be Dorothy's killer. Because it's only a week after the murder, this man opens the door and he has a full beard. So not a single witness mentioned anything about this hitchhiker having a beard. It's improbable this man could have grown one in a matter of days. So he's off the list. And then when they run his prints, the man's palm prints are not a match. On top of all of that, he has an alibi that completely checks out. So few for that guy, not actually, you know, being wrongfully arrested and committed to jail.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They've done it for less.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. You know, for real. So that's now a dead end. And without modern day DNA technology or forensic tools, these leads dry up. The investigation peters out. Months pass, and then years. Investigators still believe that Charles has something to do with his mother's death.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can you imagine, like the rest of his family, just having to sit there?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not sure you're psychic, because that is what I'm about to tell you about. Charles maintains his, but the suspicion grows in his family. And his own sisters struggle to believe the story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Charles becomes more isolated as time passes. And then around 2006, investigators working the case get access to CODIS for the first time. We've talked about it on the show a lot. It's the national DNA database that they were developing since 1991, but a lot of people didn't have access to it in the beginning. So this was the first time investigators around the country had access. And it's helped solve countless crimes and cold cases over the years. So more than 10 years after Dorothy Donovan is murdered, the mystery blood sample from her farmhouse is inputted into codis and investigators finally get a match. It belongs to a man with a lengthy criminal record who served time in Maryland around the late 1990s for murder. In the years since Dorothy's death, this man has been convicted on drug and robbery charges, and he served a stint in prison for that. He'd since been released. And it takes police more than two months to track him down. And when they do, they track him down to a home 40 miles away from Dorothy Donovan's home.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The man's name is Gilbert Cannon. He's in his late 30s. He looks a lot like the man in the composite sketch. But when police bring him in for questioning, he denies any involvement. Investigators start to confront him with the piles of evidence against him, including DNA and print matches, and he buckles. He tells investigators exactly what happened that night in June of 1991. And what he tells them is basically exactly what Charles said. Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, how frustrating.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So horrible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I told you exactly what happened, like, beat by beat, and you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And you went and.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It sounds fucking made up. It does.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It sounds entirely made up. And luckily, Gilbert Cannon did corroborate it. Cause he could have just done that thing where he's like, deny, deny and go to jail, which a lot of them do. He was in the Hardee's parking lot that night. He was high on cocaine. He was looking to score more, presumably in Georgetown, and that's why he needed a ride there. He corroborates the entire rest of the story we've heard. Charles offers to drive him a few miles up the road. Gilbert attacks Charles with the screwdriver. They fight in the street. Charles offers him the full ride, and then he runs back to his truck and gets away. Then Gilbert fills in the rest of the gas. He says he kept walking down that road, and then finally he decided he needed to find somewhere to sleep. He tells investigators he passed several houses, but they all had their lights on, so he did not try them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't tell me it was just a fucking coincidence.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep. He arrived at Dorothy's house by sheer coincidence. The lights weren't on. It was just as Charles had feared. When he saw the man lurking and drove away. He killed Gilbert. Broke in through the back door. Between the sound of the window being smashed and the creaky farmhouse floors, Dorothy wakes up. Gilbert is in a drug frenzy, truly, and just attacks her and stabs her with the screwdriver and murders her brutally and horribly. Gilbert was fleeing the scene when Charles arrived home. It doesn't seem like Gilbert understands that the same man who'd given him a ride and that he'd gotten a fight with was now the one pulling in this driveway. He tells police he acted alone and that he picked the home at random. And when police tell him that it was that same man's mother that he murdered, he is shocked. Dorothy's daughter and one of Charles sisters. Diana tells Forensic Files that Gilbert being shocked was, quote, such a relief to us. That showed us that Charles was not connected to him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, because he could have lied and said, yep, he hired me. So he gets a lighter sentence yet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I was just A dupe, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then the guilt you would feel that you did not believe in your own brother, even though it would be very hard to believe. Like, all these things that are happening, it's evidence. And it's like the part about the death insurance was terrible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. The randomness of it is what's so unbelievable. Yes, but it's true.

[Karen Kilgariff]

After confessing, Gilbert's arrested. And the following year, 2007, he pleads guilty to Dorothy's murder. When he died, it will have been 16 years since Dorothy Donovan was murdered. Gilbert's sentenced to life in prison without parole, and Dorothy's surviving family members are left to pick up the pieces. After years of overwhelming grief, losing their mom, along with the family tension over the doubt around Charles involvement, finally, Charles Holden is exonerated. But nothing can undo the nightmare of being implicated in your own mother's death. For 16 years, years, little has been documented about how Charles felt during all of this. Understandably, he had no interest in talking to the press. But a 2007 News Journal piece briefly touches on his experience, quoting his sister, Brenda Alexander, who says, quote, at the time of Cannon's arrest, Charles sisters acknowledged that they were hard pressed to understand why their brother would give a ride to a stranger, in this case, one with an extensive Delaware criminal history dating to 1981. His generosity caused a rift among the siblings, but according to Alexander, an attempt at reconciliation began Tuesday. We're working on it, she said. We were all in court and we all went to eat afterwards. We're working on it, but it's going to take time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

End quote. That's the incredibly tragic story of the murder of Dorothy Donovan and the exoneration of her son, Charles Holden.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow. I haven't seen that. Forensic files. Yeah, that's. I didn't know that story. That's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like the thing people fear about being out in the country, that, like, as far as I know, growing up out in the country never happens. And then all of a sudden, this insane, unbelievable, horrible story. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Almost unbelievable. Yeah. That's. Wow. Yeah. Great job.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, great job.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Very classic true crime. This isn't that. This is completely different than that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is the origin of Hardee's. Oh, I'd love to hear that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, it's worse. This is the story of the Gwyneth Paltrowski collision trial.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh my God. What a joy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Come on. There you go.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What a great idea.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's not my idea. Molly and Ally get full of credit for you lunatics.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm so excited.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I was like, okay, I guess it's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Such a good idea. Because here's the thing. I think there was something else big happening in the news at the same time where I really. There has always been for 10 years. But I felt like I couldn't focus on that the way I wanted to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, you just heard little blips about it. Not like a whole thing about it. But you're about to hear a whole fucking thing about it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Bring it to me, please.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, so it's late January 2019, and we are in Park City, Utah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You love to summer there, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I summer all the time in the snow. Why would I summer in the snow? Who does that? Rich people?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A 72 year old retired optometrist named Terry Sanderson, or more likely one of his lawyers, files a lawsuit in Utah's civil court that immediately generates headlines around the world. His lawsuit is against Deer Valley, a nearby ski resort known for its wealthy guests and impeccably groomed runs. It's also against the person he collided with, a person we all know from Shakespeare in Love and sliding doors and.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Of course, goop, goop, goop.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is the story of the Gwyneth Paltrysky collision trial.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Amazing. Amazing. But also it has the feeling already. And I think it's like, this guy hasn't done well in the public eye for this. No, it's you saying that he sued Dear Valley and her. It's like, ah, sue everyone. You can see it like him breaking down in the parking lot almost.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, it's kind of the sad story that I feel like it is. But you tell me. The main source of the story is reporting from NBC and the rest of the sources can be found in the show notes. Okay, so we're back to the day it all happened. It's February 26, 2016, and we're at Deer Valley on a green run, which I think is, you know, easy for babies. Yeah. Called Bandana. And this is one of the easiest runs on the mountain. It's a gentle, wide slope that connects the summit to the Empire Canyon Lodge, where you would find me if I were forced to be there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, I'm telling you, here's our cancellation. I fucking hate skiing so much.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was a activity that my single dad took us to do because he didn't know what else to do with us when we were kids. Yeah. And that's the last time I did it. And I have no interest in it. He took us a few times.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's just so out of control, like. And I get that that's the appeal, it's very like surfer. And that energy of like, let's ride it and let's see what happens. I hate let's see what happens. Energy for things like that, for like physical things.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was fun. I enjoyed it as a kid. As an adult, I have no interest.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did I tell you the story of with my ex? We went skiing one time cause he had a big skiing family. And I was like, I don't want to do this. I was like, come on, let. My dad will teach you. He's a really good teacher. We literally spent seven minutes on the kids slope and then he took me up to a thing and I just like started going down and my legs locked up and I was like, I can't go anymore. I had to get taken down on the ski patrols. Like laying down like that, staring up at the sky. It was so embarrassing and so hilarious.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So Gwyneth is 44 at the time and is on the mountain with her two kids, Apple, who's 12, and Moses, who's 10. Aw, Moses, that's like my cat. And she's with her boyfriend, producer Brad Falchuk, who they're now married, and a ski instructor named Eric Christensen. The kids have been getting a lesson from Eric and Gwyneth and Brad had been skiing with them. So kind of a family lesson together.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What happens next is up for debate. According to Gwyneth, she's gently skiing down slope.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did she use the word gently immediately?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. Well, so it's like an easy run. So it's not like you have to. And you'd be going fast or anything like that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So she's skiing down the slope, and then she sees two skis appear between her skis. And then she feels someone press up behind her and kind of grunt. And then the two of them both crash to the ground. So almost like someone came up behind her and plowed into her. Gwyneth and the man both freeze for a minute and then she yells at the guy who crashed into her. She later says she yelled at him because she thought in the moment he had done it on purpose. She's a famous person and I'm sure she gets harangued in public all the time. So she kind of thought it was one of those experiences.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And what did she yell at him? Goop, goop, goop.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And that grunt. The grunting thing was weird, you know, that's very jarring. Yeah. But she says she realizes in the moment that it was an accident and apologizes for yelling. So her kid's instructor, this guy Eric, helps the guy to his feet and they have a brief exchange, the guy and him, and then everyone skis away. Kind of like this just thing happened. And everyone is a little like, what the fuck was that? You know? Eric the teacher, files an incident with Dear Valley, describing the events this way. Although it sounds like he didn't see the moment of impact himself and was just going mostly by what Gwyneth's description was. But he, he writes that the man had said that Gwyneth, quote, just appeared in front of him, end quote. So he's saying he didn't appear behind her, she just appeared in front of him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Unfortunately, I will just as a person who has gotten rear ended like three different cars in my life, it doesn't work that way. Right. If you're behind, that's your responsibility.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Because also, like I'm just picturing a slope. There's no out of the blue. No. Unless they're going really fast.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're going really fast. But yeah, you have full breadth of vision.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's not like she can't drop down in front of you. It's just a weird construct, right, that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, okay, maybe you didn't see her in front of you, but it doesn't. I don't think she could have appeared in front of you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Breathalyzer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's actually, I don't think that happened because everyone just left. So everyone goes on with their lives for three years or so it seems at some point. The man, the man is a 75 year old. His name is Terry Sanderson and he hires a lawyer. The lawyer goes back and forth with Gwyneth's lawyers, which, you know, have to be like the best in the fucking biz.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just the power, the most power radiating off those men, the secrets they know and women. And women, the secrets that they can never tell. Oh, God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Gwyneth's lawyers are like, fuck you. No way. I'm paraphrasing. And so Terry files in early 2019. The filing includes his version of the events, which are that he was skiing down the slope when Gwyneth, skiing out of control, slammed into him from behind, knocking him unconscious and breaking four of his ribs. So very different story. Now, the central question in this lawsuit will lie in one key difference between Terry and Gwyneth Store. Who was the uphill skier? Every ski resort has a posted code of rules that skiers are supposed to follow. And among these rules is that downhill skiers have the right of way and uphill skiers who fucking uphill Skis just.

[Karen Kilgariff]

For, like, the workout or maybe like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

To get to the top of the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think they mean it's, you know, like, downstage and upstage. In the theater, they mean, like, the skier behind uphill.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Got it. Great job.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thanks so much.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So uphill is mean, and then there's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A cross country ski is coming across, like, right, everybody.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's, like, clunking up this hill. Yes. Okay, now that makes total sense. So uphill skiers, downhill skiers, downhill people. The people in front of you have the right of way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cause you simply can't control what's happening behind you when you cannot see it truly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Gwyneth and Terry each claim to be the downhill skier. So we do know that after the collision, let's call it the Deer Valley Ski Patrol, does bring Terry down the mountain on a stretch of. We're not sure if he loses consciousness at any point, but being brought down on a stretcher is common for anyone who has any kind of injury on the mountain that can't get down on his own.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You do know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know firsthand. And it's very shaming.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I would know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it takes forever. It feels like four years. It's so slow, and people kind of ski by you and look down at you. You just have to, like, let go and let. God, it's horrible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And get a hot topic. So Terry goes to urgent care later that day, and it sounds like he really did fracture some ribs. This really probably was a very painful fall. And while he's there, a friend who he'd been skiing with, a man named Craig Ramone, first tells him that the person he collided with was Gwyneth Paltrow. So he didn't even know when it happened that it was Gwyneth Paltrow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Got all those ski equipment things, the weird yellow goggles. Right. Shortly after this, Terry sends out an email to his entire family with the subject line that says, I'm Faye. It details the crash.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Make that a phone call. Don't put it in writing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The exact contents in the email don't seem to be part of the public record, but Terry goes back and forth with one of his daughters about whether or not someone on the trail might have gotten GoPro footage of the crash. But no footage ever materializes. And then three years pass before he eventually files the suit. Initially, he sues for $3 million. Yeah. Naming both Gwyneth and Deer Valley in the lawsuit. And there's a flurry of reports about this lawsuit, at first only giving Terry's side of the story and claiming that eyewitness accounts from the slopes refute the incident report on file at Deer Valley. People love to hate on Gwyneth Paltrow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She has been the subject of so much hatred, basically since day one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. She's somehow an easy target. And so the idea that she ran into someone and. And was just a messy rich lady.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Who go and skied away and she.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Now hurt this old man and everything, it's like, people love that. They like that narrative.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, it's a story. It's like, we gotta feed this content machine.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. About a month later. So in February 2019, Gwyneth comes forward in statements through her representatives, gives her version of events. So between 2019 and when the case finally goes to trial in 2023, the amount Terry is suing for drops from 3 million to $300,000. That is because it's not arbitrary.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because they drop a couple zeros, please.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Something. Because in Utah civil court, there's thresholds of amounts a plaintiff is seeking that determine how many witnesses they can call. And 300,000 is the threshold for the maximum number. So, like, do they want to call more people? Do they not want to call more people?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Maybe it's like the more people you can call to prove it, the higher your number can be. But if you're fucking around and it's like there's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You don't want that to get people called. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Then.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, the less people called, the better your chances are of winning.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my thinking was the less people called, the harder it is to prove the truth. So they can't go to those crazy levels. But, like, if something happened that eight people were like, yes, that is exactly what happened. Then it's easier to be like, then this is provably your fault or your fault.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, we are lawyers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm just making everything up while I drink a big thing of beet juice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Juice.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's my new personality.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That should be suspicious enough already that you're drinking a big glass of beet juice. So their case doesn't go to trial until March of 2023. And the fact that it goes to trial is all a testament to the fact that Gwyneth and her legal team feel that fucking Terry has no case. And it's absolute bullshit by this point. They're suing each other. Terry is suing Gwyneth for the 300,000. And Gwyneth is counter suing Terry for $1.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Plus her legal fees, which have to be astronomical.

[Karen Kilgariff]

God damn it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. So she's like. That's, like, the $1 thing is. So I don't wanna call it petty because it's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think it's fair.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. It's just the go fuck yourself amount.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. It's like, this is weird that you're doing this, but I will actually go and argue this with you because I don't want your money. I want you to easily give you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

$300,000, and it wouldn't affect me for a fucking moment. But I'm not fucking doing it on principle because you're wrong or you're, like, lying or.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Or you're just like, this is a money grab. And so instead of getting a bunch of money, I'm just gonna prove that, like, sometimes this is what happens to people. I mean, here's the thing. Gwyneth Paltrow is like, a perfect blonde Nepo baby Hollywood superstar. And God damn it, touch for sure. But our culture loves to hate, hate those women.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's like, she's supposed to go into fucking accounting. Like, what do you want from her?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know she has a perfect face, and she's really good at acting. And she's like, chill. Brad Pitt really liked her. Like, come on, give it up. But they should have tons of video on ski slopes like that because it would be so hard to prove.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. Just for liability alone, it had to be.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Imagine the snowboarder that was, like, making his own video in the first front, ground and then uphill. Downhill skier didn't even know what he's got, and he's like, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na. And then.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ugh. The snowboarding influencer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ooh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, $1. Blah, blah, blah. And the trial is carried, of course, on Court TV Live and streamed on YouTube, and is a huge sensation for some people, particularly when Gwyneth testifies for over an hour.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hell, yes. This feels very quarantine material to me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But I guess it was a little after y. Yeah. But maybe we were still traumatized enough to be like, is she in court? What's going on now?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Where'd she get that turtleneck? She looks so classy in her beiges and her chignon.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So her testimony is a weird thing to watch. It does seem like one of Terry's lawyers is a little starstruck by Gwyneth.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Paltrow, so it's embarrassing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So the line of questioning is weird. She asks Gwyneth how tall she is, and. And then, like, goes back and forth of like, I'm so jealous you're so tall. It's just weird. It's awkward and uncomfortable and weird.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know. What are you doing?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I mean, honestly, it is just this, like, let's be buddies kind of a weird thing. And that's his lawyer, so he was probably just like, fucking great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It would have been hilarious if she came out fucking guns a blazing. It was like, shut up. Immediately just tries to get in her face.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean. Yeah, it's really weird. She asks Gwyneth if she knows Taylor Swift. Yeah, it's just weird.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no. Can I remember?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, exactly. Do you guys wanna go out sometime?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's really bad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And also that poor man who was like, oh, I kicked up all this dust, and now he's like, slowly watching it all fade away. Right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it's live, so you can't be like, nevermind. So there's lots of moments that become TikTok fodder in this testimony in the case. Gwyneth gives her version of events again. And when asked if the collision disrupted her vacation, she says, well, I lost half a day of skiing. End quote. Which, like, I don't know why I'm defending her in this thing. I'm like, she doesn't fucking need me to. But it is like. It almost sounds like she was being facetious. She's like, that's all that happened. I lost a fucking half a day of skiing and this guy's fucking suing me for $3 million. Like, you know, like, it wasn't a big deal, but people take it as like a. Out of touch. Oh, I lost half a. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But this woman, she's always on the grind for you people, you know, she's like, she never stops working. Can't she have a half a day of skiing? Yeah. Without everybody being like, fuck you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally. So fine, whatever.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'll defend her. I don't care. I mean, we will at this point. I'll defend her because.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because also after it happened, she hacked in for the day and went and got a massage instead. Because she's like, yeah, someone just fucking clobbered me. I'm made of money and I'm so fucking. And I'm Gwyneth Paltrow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Her choice is like, go pick a diamond necklace, eat fucking caviar or go get a massage.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, what would you do? Yeah, you do that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What, do you want her to go down and work at the buffet? It's Gwyneth fucking Paltrow. She's never lifted a finger, nor should she have had to. No, thank you, Blythe. Danner for bringing this perfect child into the world.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We are going to the Paltrow stands here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It turns out we're the phoniest assholes in all of show business.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know we're just like, just as bad as the lawyer kissing her ass.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But I think there is a piece of it where it's like, this must happen to, to her or that type of person, non fucking style.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like you just can't win. Like anything you say is going to be torn apart.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did you see Marty Supreme? Gwyneth is in it as this, like, actress who is, you know, slightly older. Fucking incredible. She is a movie star.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's the other thing. It's like just, I think when people get around movie stars, whether they sue them or like try to be friends with them, there's just a weird magic.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like blip in your head.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It makes you a little crazy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love Odessa, that chick who's in Marty supreme with the curly hair.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, she's so.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's in I Love la and it's. She's like, she's so good. One of the reasons to watch it, she's just incredible.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I gotta see that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Odessa a Zion. She's just like, magnetic.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I like that movie. But my sister had to go out and stand in the lobby for a while because she was over. All of her senses were overwhelmed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Why?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because you have to watch it. But the soundtrack is absolutely insane.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I can't watch. I have a sensory issue. I can't watch it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, she does too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You should text her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I don't want to, like, upset her senses. That's what we don't like is to be texted. Okay, so Terry's ski buddy, that guy Craig Ramone, takes the stand. He's considered to be the only eyewitness to the actual collision. He of course, backs up his friend Terry's story. He says that he heard a, quote, blood curdling scream, end quote.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you. Before seeing Gwyneth out of control, slam into tape.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The woman has been on ski slopes since she was like, probably 4 years old.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally right. He also is questioned about a Facebook post he made shortly after the collision, claiming Gwyneth, quote, took Terry out, end quote. You know, who knows what the fuck. They're just trying to make it seem like it's her fault, obviously.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, he has broken ribs. I mean, like, yeah, the broken ribs.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But also he was an. I'm sorry, but like, he's an older gentleman. Right. But she wasn't hurt at all. And he broke four Ribs. Not to say that. It just seems like disparate stories. Yeah. And it might be more about you and your body than the crash.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. I just need to know who the uphill and downhill skiers were. Because that's all of a sudden people being like, no, no, I was in front. Is crazy and infuriating. I'm sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And then of course, Eric, the ski instructor, who we must imagine is gorgeous and like, you know, fucking Fabio in the movie. Like, let's just picture that. Cause it's fun.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Please. And stoned.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And stoned. And had a fucking. And bird hit him in the face. Backs up Gwyneth version of what happened. He says she's a decent skier and that she had been making good turns and that she had been skiing calmly, you know, normally. He disputes the blood curdling scream, saying, quote, Ms. Paltrow doesn't go down the hill screaming. There would be no reason for her to be screaming. Just to scream, end quote.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, no, that, that's not the claim. The claim is like coming in like that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Can you picture Gwyneth Paltrow screaming in out of control fucking craziness on like a bunny slope?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It just doesn't. It's a bunny slope or it's a green slope.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is Bunny like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is that not bunny's the one that's like. There's almost no incline whatsoever. But then the other one's kind of like pretty serious.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So he and Terry's lawyers have a long back and forth about whether or not Eric yelled at Terry. There's all this like fucking. They're just questioning the teacher and he's like, hey, man. Hey man, look, dude, just trying to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do my fucking job with rad to snow, baby.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The case probably falls apart for good when Terry is questioned. In his suit, he lists many health problems that he suffered since the collision. But Gwyneth's legal team also determined that he had most of these conditions before the pre existing. Also, it's determined that his eyesight in one eye was already fairly impaired at the time of the collision. I feel sensitive towards him because he's my dad's age and I just feel sensitive.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. Like it sucks to get into a ski accident no matter what's happening.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. He claims he's suffered debilitating health issues in the years since. But Gwyneth's legal team points out that he had also traveled extensively after the accident, taking trips to Europe, Peru, Morocco, the Canary Islands, Thailand and Costa Rica, where he zip lined. In the end, Gwyneth winds up winning the case and is awarded the $1 in damage. Ultimately, Terry winds up not having to pay her legal fees because it would have been a huge amount of money. And I. You know, kudos to her for, like, not making him do that, being decent. After the verdict is read, when everyone is leaving the courtroom, this is just. I mean, it's. What do you think of this moment? It's so beautifully petty. Right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's hilarious. And I also don't know if she meant it in a petty way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think she was being sincere.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I do, too, because I totally do. It's like you and I would do it and absolutely be sarcastic.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, Here. Let's say it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's take a look at it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's a clap. She goes by him and leans down and whispers in his ear. It's on video. She whispers, I wish you well. So you could go, I wish you well. Or you can go, I wish you well.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, you could lock eyes and be like, dude, yeah, I wish you well.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think the way when you watch the video, it doesn't have a pettiness. I don't know. I don't see the pettiness.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But she's wearing a lot of cashmere, so really give her the benefit of cash out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But that smells amazing, too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She has this really good, good glowy primer. On, God, her skin is perfect.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Her hair is perfect. She smells great. I wish you well. I wish you well, end quote. And that, you know, that is my wishing them well is my talking shit that, like, I'm not gonna talk shit. I'm just gonna say I'm wishing them well, you know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then you talk shit after.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, like, I talk shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm just like, what are you. Who are you talking about? You don't talk shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Who's that, Georgia? I don't know. I wish you well, end quote. The reporters asked Harry if he whispered anything back to her. He answers that. He said, quote, thank you, dear. End quote.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So they kind of ended friends.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Like, ended on a. This is stupid. And we both can acknowledge that and, like, let's move on with our lives.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's kind of like, hey, look, is this an opportunity to make a cool, easy $2 million?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, this is what people do because the courts are unregulated in that way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Watch the McDonald's Hot Coffee documentary.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. To this day, he stands by his version of events. He has to. And that is the story of the Gwyneth Paltrow ski collision trial.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Now, do you Think she really was innocent or do you think that she was just a more appealing witness than him?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't think his version of events add up. Not maliciously.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know, if you were younger, I think I'd think it was malicious and like a money grab, but I just don't buy it. And then also, like, you weren't hurt that bad. You didn't. You're blaming her for that. But you're living your life. I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're in San Moritz also, I think if it was a big smashup.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There would be way more witnesses and way more people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And like an incident report. Because places like that are immediately, for insurance reasons, gonna be like, I know everyone's fine, but we need to react the report.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, didn't Eric the ski instructor after.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The fact, which is good. But like, yeah, they would have.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. It wasn't all hands on deck because there's this big terrible accident.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. So that to me is weird as well.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did they show pictures of her in her ski outfit?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I didn't see.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But she looks cute.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean. Yeah. Elite.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Why are we kissing her ass so much?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no, I'm not trying to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm not. I am.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, there's. What do we get out of it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Free goop.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Free go. I think it's an interesting thing when you are kind of at the hands of the public in that way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're like public property. You're not a real person anymore.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. And then it's like, even just we bumped into each other. Now you're going to pay me money.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally. And like the three years later thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Three years later, afterwards is when he started suing her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He had to go on vacation to eight places. But also, in fairness, if she did come through and smash into him and break his ribs and ski away like two bad chumps.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then he's just like, no one's ever gonna be on my side. Cause it's Gwyneth Paltrow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And I've had to go through all these things because of broken ribs, which is really fucking painful and makes zip lining really hard. Then like, I don't know, he reminds me of my dad a little. So I'm like, don't wanna.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's like this like, sweet old man looking guy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was such a good idea. And such a. Like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's almost like, hey, let's read the newspaper together.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally. But it's true crime. It is. And Anyone who says different here's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I do think that if this was different, she wouldn't have done the $1. She wouldn't have waived illegal fees. Like, all of those moves belie at least, like a good faith person.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's that thing of, like, my integrity is on the line here. And I refuse to back down because you're lying. Cause that's not true. So I don't think she would have done that if it were true. Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But I do think it was like, very close to the Johnny Depp Amber heard. Exactly. Thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It felt similar.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It felt like it was right there where you're just. What's happening. All of a sudden. Court TV is back and better than ever.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Why is this entertainment?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It shouldn't be. That's the downfall of. Wait a second. This is a true crime podcast.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hold on a second.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. All right, that's fucking it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, that was a great way to distract from our horrors.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We did that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, we did.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't feel as bad as I thought I would at the end of this story.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm sorry, Gwyneth, but I feel fucking great. After your nutso. Your nutso experience, and I'm sorry, broken ribs, man. Because if you are right and the world is against you, what a tragedy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Truly, in this day and age of all. That's the tragedy of all tragedies.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What if she leaned forward and said, my. What is it? Peace be with you. What did she say?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I wish you well.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I wish you well. But then she very quickly winked with one eye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Winked. Just like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just like. No, I don't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I don't. Okay. Amazing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Good distraction. Thank you. Great story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Thank you. So now that we're back in the real world, we want to throw some money at the problem by donating $10,000 to the ACLU.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, considering everything that's going on, what if we give $25,000?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Love it. Let's do it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In the name of Murderinos and all of you guys for just supporting us and listening.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you, and anything you can do, go on social media. The people of Minneapolis need your help. Need your support. Probably money or donations. There's all kinds of services. This is really an insane situation that everyone is in. And whether you can volunteer, give $5, or just give a shit and pay attention.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. This is a pivotal moment.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think it's gonna be historical, so let's be on the right side of history.

[Karen Kilgariff]

God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Anyway, stay sexy and don't get murdered. Goodbye, Elvis. Do you want A cookie.

[Martina Castro]

What gets you to believe in something? And I mean really believe, really believe, to the point that you'd be willing to travel thousands of miles and put your faith, even your own body, on the line for it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Desperate. That's what I was weighing. Freaking 80 pounds with a child to raise.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We went to multiple doctors. They couldn't figure out what was actually the problem.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nobody told me they were going to cure my father. No doctor, neurosurgeon. But he said, I'm going to cure your father. And I believed it.

[Martina Castro]

How long are you willing to hold that belief? Until you question the whole thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

As they would say, either I believed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In him or I believed in death.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I had to believe in him.

[Martina Castro]

Joel Tisheng, better known as John of God, is a Brazilian spiritual healer who over five decades grew into one of the most famous healers in the world.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He had healed the wives of ministers, presidents and owners of big companies. This is real. This guy's actually doing surgery and it's a miracle. I never believed that miracles were real until that point.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You had literally thousands of people in white milling around and everyone tells you how they've been saved by this person.

[Georgia Hardstark]

After a while I was like, well.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can all these people be wrong?

[Martina Castro]

But while he drew thousands of followers who claimed he cured their cancer or helped them walk again, over time, a darker side began to reveal itself.

[Karen Kilgariff]

One of the reasons why I never went to the police is because I saw at least five or six men with guns everywhere he went. That was clear to me, like, close your mouth, don't open your mouth. Don't say anything.

[Martina Castro]

From Exactly Right Media and Adonde Media, this is Two Faced John of God. I'm executive producer and host Martina Castro, and over the course of the next six episodes, I'll tell you how this man painted himself as a gifted healer. But as his power and influence grew, he used it to lead a double life, one driven by intimidation, greed and sexual assault.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's very difficult and it's very also lonely. One small person against God.

[Martina Castro]

Listen to Two Faced John of God on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts and Spanish speakers. Pueden e cuchar etcerie en espanol. Pujena dos caras Juan de Dios.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This has been an exactly Right production.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Our senior producer is Molly Smith and our associate producer is Tessa Hughes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This episode was mixed with by Liana Squillace.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our researchers are Mary McGlashan and Ali Elkin.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Email your hometowns to my favorite murdermail.com.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And follow the show on Instagram at.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My Favorite Murder Listen to My favorite murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or you can watch us on YouTube, search for my Favorite Murder, then like and subscribe.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This podcast is brought to you by Kleenex Lotion Tissues Life doesn't slow down if you get sick, but with Kleenex lotion tissues, you're prepared for cold and flu season.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

Whether you're diving into research rabbit holes, listening to your favorite podcast, or just dealing with a runny nose, Kleenex lotion tissues made with coconut oil and aloe are a little comfort that goes a long way during the cold and flu season.

[Karen Kilgariff]

For whatever happens next, grab Kleenex. Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of Angie. One thing I've learned is that you buy a house, but you make it a home.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And for decades, Angie's helped millions of.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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