519 - Giants of Any Kind

Summary

Podcast Summary: My Favorite Murder Ep. 519 – “Giants of Any Kind”

Hosts: Karen Kilgariff & Georgia Hardstark
Date: February 12, 2026
Network: Exactly Right / iHeartPodcasts

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Overview

In this episode, Karen and Georgia return with their signature true crime-comedy blend, covering two stories:

1. The extraordinary childhood courage of Ruby Bridges, the first Black child to integrate an all-white elementary school in New Orleans—a story honoring Black History Month.
2. The jaw-dropping saga of George Remus, “The King of Bootleggers,” who built a Prohibition-era whiskey empire before descending into murder and wild courtroom drama.

Their conversation spans personal quirks, cultural recommendations, insights about race and history, and the absurd opulence and violence of 1920s organized crime.

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Table of Contents

• Opening Banter: Cats, Rotting, and Popcorn (02:23–09:42)
• Exactly Right Podcast Network Updates (09:44–12:31)
• Karen’s Story: Ruby Bridges Integrates New Orleans Schools (14:34–43:36)
• Georgia’s Story: George Remus – The King of Bootleggers (47:00–70:52)
• Memorable Quotes & Moments

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<a name="opening"></a>

Opening Banter: Cats, Rotting, and Popcorn

(02:23–09:42)

• Karen and Georgia joke about feeling “fresh and new” despite being long-time podcasters.
• They riff on gleeking (spit-shooting), whistling, and Karen’s OnlyFans “talents” (“I can whistle and be negative”—Karen, 03:42).
• Discussion of comfort hobbies: “rotting” with cats, reading (Georgia recommends The Husbands—a sci-fi about infinite husbands), and watching TV or movies.
• Karen laments the underwhelming Game of Thrones prequel but praises her abiding fascination with “giants of any kind”—“A big man is... I’m always piqued.” (06:01)
• Movie talk: Georgia presses Karen to watch “Begonia” and “If I Had Legs, I’d Kick You.” Karen admits to being “popcorn-oriented” rather than movie-oriented: “Please be honest about how you're using the movie theater for popcorn only.” (09:16)
• Casual, comedic setup transitions into the show’s main stories.

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<a name="exactlyright"></a>

Exactly Right Podcast Network Updates

(09:44–12:31)

• Announcement of “Two Faced: John of God”—a limited series about a Brazilian spiritual healer available in English and Spanish (“Dos Caras: Juan de Dios”).
• My Favorite Murder and Buried Bones are available weekly on Netflix: “Your old comfort listen is now your new comfort watch.” (10:34)
• Fan Cult members get access to episodes worldwide, ad-free audio/video, and exclusive merch.
• Shout-outs to the Exactly Right store for last-chance merch.

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<a name="ruby"></a>

Karen’s Story: Ruby Bridges – Integration and Courage

(14:34–43:36)

Segment Breakdown:

Intro & Context (14:36)

• Karen selects Ruby Bridges’ story for Black History Month, emphasizing the incredible burden placed on a six-year-old.
• Quote: “This child was a baby when she had to do this.” (16:10)

Ruby’s Early Life and the Dawn of Integration (16:54–19:24)

• Ruby Bridges, born in 1954 in Mississippi. Parents, Lucille and Abon, move to New Orleans for a better life and education.
• Brown v. Board of Education had just ruled segregation unconstitutional, but schools remained separate.

The New Orleans Integration Struggle (19:24–22:26)

• 1960: Federal judge Skelly Wright orders New Orleans schools to integrate or shut down.
• Out of 150 Black children who take an unfair entrance exam designed to keep them out, only six pass; Ruby is one.

Ruby’s First Day: November 14, 1960 (22:26–28:33)

• Ruby is escorted by federal marshals, unknowing of the mob outside. She thinks it might be Mardi Gras.
• Only four Black girls integrate two schools; Ruby attends William Frantz Elementary alone.
• Heart-wrenching: “Did I feel special? Yes, I did feel very special. As a matter of fact... I really thought I was going straight to college.” (24:19)

The Harrowing Days That Follow (28:33–33:33)

• All teachers (except one, Barbara Henry) and almost all parents remove their children; Ruby’s mom stays by her side; federal marshals guard them.
• Mob violence: “...they're throwing tomatoes and eggs at Ruby, Lucille, and the marshals.” (29:29)
• Her teacher, Barbara Henry, becomes a lifelong friend, creating a safe haven inside the classroom: “She made me feel safe. She made school fun for me.” (32:05)
• The cruelty outside: “She does remember seeing people carrying a child’s coffin with a black doll inside...” (33:26)

Isolation, Fallout, and the Ripples of History (33:33–43:36)

• Mrs. Henry is the only teacher to teach Ruby; Ruby’s parents lose their jobs, grandparents are evicted.
• Ruby’s second grade is harsher—her teacher, a year prior protestor, mocks her, and Dr. Robert Coles (Harvard psychologist) offers counseling.
• Recognition delayed: Only as a teen does Ruby realize her national significance, after Norman Rockwell’s The Problem We All Live With is published. (39:52)
• Ruby grows up, meets President Obama, receives the Presidential Citizens Medal, and starts the Ruby Bridges Foundation.
• Tribute to her mother Lucille on her passing in 2020.

Memorable Quote:

“Up until that moment, I didn’t think anyone remembered or cared or that it even mattered... I did not realize that my walk, my story, was a part of the civil rights movement.”
— Ruby Bridges (39:52)

Emotional Reflection

Karen and Georgia repeatedly emphasize the emotional resonance and historical proximity:

• “Ruby Bridges is still alive... This is not the distant past...” (35:51)
• “That woman is so brave. She knew the threats, and you know Ruby didn’t, but she and her husband did. And they said we’re still moving forward.” (30:30)

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<a name="remus"></a>

Georgia’s Story: George Remus – The King of Bootleggers

(47:00–70:52)

Segment Breakdown:

Introduction and Pop Culture Reference (47:00–49:40)

• Georgia introduces George Remus, "The King of Bootleggers," noting his role in the second season of Boardwalk Empire (portrayed by Glenn Fleschler).

Remus’s Legal Hustle and Family Life (51:17–56:15)

• German-born Remus immigrates to Chicago, becomes a pharmacist, then a defense lawyer.
• Famous for inventing the “temporary insanity” legal defense.
• Known for courtroom theatrics, earning the nickname “Crying Remus.”

Affairs, Scandals, and the Dawn of Prohibition (54:28–56:45)

• Affair with Imogene Holmes exposed in newspapers, divorce from first wife Lillian (“I told her I didn’t want him. You may keep the rubbish.” — Lillian, 56:15).
• Marries Imogene; starts bootlegging as Prohibition takes effect.

Bootlegging Empire: Wealth and Wild Parties (56:45–64:24)

• Moves to Cincinnati for proximity to US whiskey supplies.
• Exploits legal loopholes allowing whiskey for “medicinal use.”
• Controls 1/7th of Prohibition-era whiskey market, amasses (in today’s money) over $600 million.
• Throws Gatsby-esque parties: “Each woman leaves with a pair of diamond earrings and every man leaves with a diamond pin...some rumors say each party guest left with a car.” (63:07)

Downfall: Betrayal, Murder, and Infamy (64:27–70:52)

• Remus is imprisoned for Volstead Act violations. An undercover agent, Franklin Dodge, befriends him, seduces Imogene, and together they liquidate Remus’s empire.
• Imogene tries to have Remus killed, but the hitman reveals the plan.
• When Imogene files for divorce, Remus confronts and kills her in public: “With onlookers watching in shock, George shoots Imogene in the stomach, and she dies at the hospital.” (68:09)
• At trial, Remus self-defends, claims temporary insanity, and is acquitted after the jury deliberates only 19 minutes.
• Lives a quiet post-murder life as a “contractor” in Kentucky until his death.

Notable Banter:

• Karen jokes: “He had like six different jobs and ends as a contractor. I think he’s just good at bossing people around!” (71:09)
• On courtroom strategy: “He delivers his own defense with his trademark histrionics. Men are so emotional, you know what I mean?” (68:52)

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<a name="quotes"></a>

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote/Context | |-----------|-------------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 06:00 | Karen | “Because, you know, I'm a fan of giants of any kind, really. A big man is... I'm always piqued.” | | 24:19 | Ruby (via Karen) | “Did I feel special? Yes, I did feel very special. As a matter of fact...I really thought I was going straight to college.” | | 29:29 | Karen | “They're throwing tomatoes and eggs at Ruby, Lucille, and the marshals, but mostly at a little tiny girl...” | | 32:05 | Ruby (via Karen) | “She made me feel safe. She made school fun for me. I knew once I passed the crowd and got inside the building, I was gonna have a great day because of her.” | | 39:52 | Ruby Bridges | “Up until that moment, I didn’t think anyone remembered or cared or that it even mattered. I did not realize that my walk, my story, was a part of the civil rights movement.” | | 56:15 | Lillian Clough | “I told her I didn’t want him. You mean they keep the rubbish?” | | 63:07 | Georgia | “Each woman leaves with a pair of diamond earrings and every man leaves with a diamond pin. There are rumors…each party guest leaves with a car.” | | 68:09 | Georgia | “With onlookers watching in shock, George shoots Imogene in the stomach, and she dies at the hospital.” | | 68:52 | Georgia | “He delivers his own defense with his trademark histrionics. Men are so emotional, you know what I mean?” |

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Tone & Style

The episode embodies MFM’s signature mix of empathy, wit, and irreverence:

• Deep emotional resonance during Karen’s story of Ruby Bridges, marked by outrage and awe at the courage of a child facing racist mobs.
• Playful, sarcastic commentary on the egos and crimes of Prohibition-era men in Georgia’s segment.
• Frequent comedic asides, relatable pop culture references, and spontaneous banter reflecting the duo's chemistry and the podcast’s accessible style.

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Final Thoughts

Karen and Georgia continue to excel at blending history, true crime, and comedy—bringing perspective to civil rights and social injustice in Ruby Bridges’ story, and exploring the outlandish excess and violence of the bootlegging era with George Remus. The episode is a testament to both the endurance of the human spirit and the absurdity (and horror) of crime throughout American history.

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[End of summary]

Transcript

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

Hello and welcome to my favorite murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's Georgia Hartstart.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's Karen Kilkeriff.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is all new. It's as if it's day one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It feels new every time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Doesn't it feel fresh and new?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I just spit at you. I'm sorry, did you. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did you land all the way over here in my weird spot? I think it's going away, actually.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It is going away. Let's pretend that spot is not because you've spilled something on yourself, but because I spit towards you as you spit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All the way across the podcast at me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Gleek. Remember Gleeking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There were boys in my high school that were so frighteningly accurate at gleeking. If you don't know, gleeking is what we used to call in the 80s. Very specifically directed, but it was like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

From under your tongue. It happens to me all the time in the fucking dentist chair. And it's so embarrassing. I can. I Gleek more than most people. Never on purpose. It's so embarrassing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There were boys in my high school that of course, were like, seniors when I was a freshman or whatever, that could do it across a classroom at you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If I had that power, it's incredible. Where would I be today if I had that kind of.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You'd be Kenny Scalmanini, living your dream.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I would have it. Of onlyfans. Gleeking. Onlyfans.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God. People would pay top dollar.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Gleeking and feet. That's what I got.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Those are your two big pluses.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's my onlyfans.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I can whistle and be negative. Those are mine. That's my only fans.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I can't whistle. So that's actually pretty impressive. Stop it. Show off. You're showing off now. You're mocking me. Queet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Woo. Oh, remember the wheat Woo. That's where that came from.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think Nicole's talking about re releasing some wheat Woo. Whistles.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, that's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We don't wanna look gross. We're gonna re release some whistles and have people buy them. And we donate the money.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, guys, get with it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

God damn it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Stop gleeking all over our fucking parade. Oh, all right. How's it going?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Good. I didn't. This was a weekend where, because I didn't have to go anywhere, travel, I literally did not do one thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just rotted. But not in a negative way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I love rotting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I do too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. Like, if I have a cat on me, like, everything is fine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know, cat.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I had a dog in a cone for a little while. Blossom had an eye infection.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A dog. A cat. A book would be great. I'm reading a book about called the Husbands, where this woman has this attic that just creates new husbands every time she sends the other one back up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So she has an infinite amount of husbands and she's just trying to, like, finally fucking pick one, but they all suck in some kind of way. And she's all like, maybe the next one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So she's had hundreds of husbands.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's funny.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so good. It's like, perfect sci fi. Because it's just this. I love when, like, just. Oh, this little hole opened up in the world. Nothing big.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. This is just how it's affecting my day to day.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. Husbands.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Called the husbands.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's funny.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I can't put it down. What are you watching? Anything interesting? Mm.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Listen, I don't want to be negative. I try to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't you? Yes, you do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, it's my skill. I don't wanna be negative for free.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Whistle.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, you have to go onto my onlyfans for that. But I will just keep it general and say that I tried to get into, like, the things that are popular and being, like, marketed right now. And I skimmed through many of them. What could it be over the weekend? And I was just like, what am I doing?

[Georgia Hardstark]

What could it be? Say it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fine. It's the new Game of Thrones prequel spinoff.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Seriously.

[Karen Kilgariff]

With the Very Large Man. Because, you know, I'm a fan of giants of any kind, really. A big man is. I'm always pierced.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My size, though. Or just like, regular big. Like, oversized.

[Karen Kilgariff]

As big as possible. Robert Wadlow, the world's tallest man.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, whether it's mass, whether it's, you know, just pure height, whether it's personality.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You almost, like, want it to be, like, on the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like on that circus tip.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. I didn't wanna say it, but shockingly so.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It just holds my attention. It's fun.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I didn't know that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I love that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm always like, what's happening over here?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I can't look away.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So that guy's, you know, cute and great or whatever. But you don't wanna be a sequel or a prequel to a show like Game of Thrones.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm not gonna watch it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How does. That's like having, like, a crazy hot older sister. And then you're like. And there's me. Like, there's. It's that vibe, I feel like, where you're very critical of a show that, like, meant the world to everybody.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. Remember when I was in my Game of Thrones phase when I was binging it, like, years later?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. And you were just like, what's up with this family? I'm like, I'm not having this conversation with you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can we talk about. It's like, been 10 fucking years. Did you watch Begonia?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, what's that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

The new movie that's like, with Jesse Plemons and. Love that guy and what's her name?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Emma Stone.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Emma Stone. Thank you. You haven't watched that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nor heard of it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's like, nominated for all these things, except Jesse Plemons fucking got completely. What's it called when they don't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ignored.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, but what's a. What are they?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Snubbed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Snubbed. Thank you. Molly. Coming in hot.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's like, God damn it, this is easy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Snubbed so hard. It's such a good fucking movie. I can't believe you have watched it. It's like, so you. You'd love it. You'll love it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Begonia.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, I'll watch it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I like the flower, but like, this other thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, that was great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did you go to the movie theater?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Absolutely not. It's on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I was gonna say.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, it's on tv.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then also, if I had legs, I'd kick you. Did you watch that one?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I feel like you mentioned that to me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

With Rose Byrne. Yeah, maybe. Okay, excellent.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Will you text those to me?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I'll forget.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Come on. Cause I'll forget.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, I'll do it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The phase I'm in right now, whatever it is, and maybe I just need to get on. Move. Current movie TikTok. And that'll help me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because I haven't heard of anything except for apparently there was a guy that made his own horror movie that he released on YouTube and it got hugely popular and now it has, like, theater distribution.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's not the one from the dog's point of view, is it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't think so.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I want to watch that one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is it new?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think newish, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, I could be wrong. It's a horror movie.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. It's a scary movie, but I don't think it's from YouTube.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. This one is a guy, and dogs weren't mentioned in the one TikTok I saw about it, but it was like, this guy's changing this system or whatever.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. You're so movie oriented. Although I guess you're movie theater oriented more than.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know what? I am popcorn oriented. That's what it is. Any excuse.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Good that you can admit that, though.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. I'm real honest about it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The first step, popcorn.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Please be honest about how you're using the movie theater for popcorn only.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I watch anything with popcorn. Big old tub like, you know, you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can get it delivered to your house.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think I did get it delivered to my house in Covid.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That sounds right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think. But it's not. It's certainly not the same.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You need a really angry teenager to serve it to you. I do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Speaking of angry teenagers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There we go.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We have a podcast network.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's true.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's called Exactly Right Media.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And so here are some quick highlights.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, for example, we just launched Two Faced John of God, which is our newest limited series podcast. And it's out right now in both English and Spanish. Very exciting. It's about a Brazilian spiritual healer, his fall from grace. We made it with a company called Adande Media. Martina Castro is the host. We love her. If you are looking for the Spanish speaking version, the title is Dos Caras Juan de Dios.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Great job.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you. Working on it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Please follow and subscribe or whatever the hell. It really helps the network and the podcast appreciate you. That's right. And did you know that you can now watch podcasts on Netflix?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's true.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's a thing. It's the future.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's real.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hi. New episodes of My Favorite Murder and Buried Bones are now released weekly on Netflix. So your old comfort listen is now your new comfort watch. Flip that on in the background. Have a listen. Fold your clothes, do your nails, whatever you wanna do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then now take right into the camera. We're podcasters. That would be amazing if you could cry on cue like that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I can't even cry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not on cue, I mean. But what if that was the way you cry?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, cool. That's a good idea.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, if you're not on Netflix for some reason or you're outside the United States, you can watch full episode video when you join the fan cult.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

That'S that. That's the business.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. You're first.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm going to go first. Okay. And I am going to present my story in honor of Black History Month.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Love it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Which goes with listener a gesture of look at me. Oh, look at me. I'm doing this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Love it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We begin in New Orleans, Louisiana, the morning of Monday, November 14, 1960, as a six year old girl gets ready for her first day at her new school, the William France Elementary School, right down the street from her house. She wears a white shirt and a blue dress and she's got a big white bow in her hair. But when she walks out the door that morning with her mother beside her, she has no idea how difficult or transformative her first day of school will be. She'll later say, quote, there were barricades and people shouting and policemen everywhere. I thought maybe it was Mardi Gras. First grade, six. Six years old. Except the atmosphere is not festive or light like Mardi Gras. It's host, it's violent and it's all directed right at her. As this crowd screams, threats and slurs and throws things, she keeps walking. Four men in suits escort her, two in the front and two in the rear, into the building. And as she passes through those front doors of William France elementary, she not only becomes the first black student ever to attendant, but she becomes a symbol for progress and bravery in the face of racist hate. This is the true story of Ruby Bridges.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Amazing. Amazing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I just shake my head like that. This child was a baby when she had to do this. A baby.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So much to put on a little kid and pressure and then imagine being such a horrible person that you hate a child.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, like, and feel justified just in this sneering group of white assholes that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are just like, chill, like, what is wrong with you?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Grab ahold of yourself. So sources used in today's research are Ruby Bridges autobiography, Through My eyes, and a 2022 episode of the Slight Change of Plans podcast entitled A six Year Old Changes History, which is actually from Pushkin, our friends over at Pushkin and Iheart, and a PBS American Experience article entitled Ruby Bridges and the Integration of New Orleans Schools. And the rest of the sources are in our show notes. So Ruby Bridges is born in Tylertown, Mississippi on September 8, 1954. That's a small town in the central part of the State. It's not far from the border with Louisiana, and Ruby's parents and grandparents were both sharecroppers there. Ruby's mother is named Lucille and her father's name is Abon, and he's also a Korean war vet. And Ruby is their first child. So when she's 4 years old, her family leaves Tyler town and moves to New Orleans. And they land in the Upper ninth Ward, which is a historically black working class neighborhood where Aban starts working as a mechanic. And Lucille takes care of Ruby and her siblings during the but she also does domestic work at night to keep the household afloat. One of the bridge's main motivators for moving to New Orleans was for, of course, better paying work for Abonne and Lucille, but also better educations for their children. Lucille had to drop out in the eighth grade to work in the fields alongside her parents. And Ruby will later describe her mom as, quote, very determined, and she took education very seriously. I think it was because it was something that neither her nor my father were allowed to have. And ultimately that's what she wanted for her kids, a better life for them, end quote. So here's some important context. The year that Ruby Bridges is born, 1954, is when the historic Brown vs Board of Education decision is handed down by the Supreme Court. And in it, the court's nine justices unanimously determined that racial segregation in American public schools is unconstitutional. But that does not result in the quick integration of public schools. Of course, especially in the southern United States, white people do do everything they can to maintain the segregated status quo, either by ignoring the court's decision or by intimidation tactics, or just by making it impossible for black students to enroll at their white only schools. So despite the court's decision, many schools remain racially segregated for years after that law is passed. This is the case in Ruby's new hometown of New Orleans, where in 1960, six years after the Brown v. Board decision, public schools have yet to integrate. So a federal judge named Skelly Wright finally orders them to do so. And if they refuse, he threatens to shut down every public school in the city.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So the New Orleans school board agrees to integrate two schools, starting with children entering the first grade classes there. But they set out to make it very tough for black children to enroll by requiring them to take an entrance exam that the white children do not have to take. A scholar named Joseph Dewey writes, quote, the test was difficult designed, critics said, to legally maintain the state's long standing segregated education system, end quote. So it's essentially similar to the Jim Crow era literacy tests that were explicitly designed to prevent black Americans from registering to vote. But this time it's aimed at five and six year olds. The numbers vary across sources, but around 150 black children in New Orleans take this test. Only six of them pass. And because you haven't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because you haven't let them. Okay, sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, well, because it's a scam. Yeah, it's a setup.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like so many things, like sharecropping, like so many things, it's a setup. So only six children pass. Ruby Bridges is one of those children.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She has now cleared the first hurdle that's meant to prevent her from enrolling in this white school. But she's too young to really understand any of that. What she knows is that her parents are so proud of her for passing this test. Of course, her parents disagree about what to do next. Ruby's dad is hesitant about sending his little girl to a white school. He knows she will not be welcomed at all, much less with open arms, and that she could likely experience physical harm at the hands of racists. Ruby later writes in her autobiography, quote, my father didn't want any part of school integration. He was a gentle man, and he feared the angry segregationists that might hurt his family. Having fought in the Korean War, he experienced segregation on the battlefield where he risked his life for his country. He didn't think things would ever change. He didn't think I would ever be treated as an equal. End quote. But Ruby's mom, Lucille, is armed with her conviction about the power of education. She is dedicated to this idea. She also knows that a historically white school will have more resources and better facilities than Ruby's current school. So she eventually is able to convince her husband enrolling Ruby is the right choice. So of the six black children who pass their entrance exams, only four total, including Ruby, actually enroll in these all white schools. The other three children are also little girls, just like Ruby. Their names are Leona Tate, Gail Etienne and Tessie Prevost. And they're assigned to the McDonough 19 elementary School, which is in the Lower Ninth Ward. So they're sometimes referred to now as the McDonough Three. Basically, these four little brave girls are responsible for a historical moment in the fight to integrate Southern schools. Four little six year old girls.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Amazing. Wild.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. But while the McDonough three will be attending school in the Lower Ninth Ward together, Ruby Bridges is all alone in the upper ninth as the first and only black child in a student body made up of 500 white kids. So Ruby's given a start date in August of 1960, which is the beginning of the school year. But there's so much resistance to her going to this school and the integration of schools in general. Her start date keeps getting pushed until it finally lands on November 14, 1960.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Jesus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So the good news about all of this, and I never knew this, is that she at the time, kind of didn't know what was going on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I feel like six is still young enough to kind of not be aware. But like the Mardi Gras. Maybe it was Mardi Gras.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is like so heartbreaking, but also like a blessing in disguise maybe.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, right, yes, exactly. So essentially, Aban and Lucille have deliberately sheltered their daughter from the racism and the violence and the hostility around this school integration. And Ruby now talks about this in interviews, that it was a well intended decision by her parents, but also maybe a misguided one, because as this is happening, Ruby just truly is in the dark about the situation as a whole. All she knows is that her loved ones all seem very excited about her new school. And that Monday, November 14, is her first day of first grade. And that morning feels like a holiday at her at the Bridges house. It's noticeably different from Ruby's first day of kindergarten a year earlier. And years later, she'll say, quote, it was totally different. Neighbors were coming over. My mother's friends were coming to dress me for school. I had all these beautiful new things to wear.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, everyone's so happy for her. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And they're also just like, you're gonna, we're all gonna put in on this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Together and we're all freaked out, but we're gonna make this a celebration. Yeah, I'm sure they were terrified.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then she says, did I feel special? Yes, I did feel very special. As a matter of fact, in my tiny six year old mind remembering the test I had taken and how excited everyone was about that, I really thought I was going straight to college. Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so cute.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's exactly the kind of getting it wrong that we need to do more of. I just thought I was so good. I'm going straight to college.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, sorry, we're still on the quote. I thought everybody was so excited because they had never seen a six year old go to college.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's so cute.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so cute. End quote. So Ruby then hears a knock at the door. And when her parents open it, there are four tall white men standing outside. They all have matching yellow bands on their arms. Ruby's so young. She doesn't question why they're here. Her parents choose not to tell her, but she'll eventually learn that they're federal marshals who have been sent to escort Ruby to her new school.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So even though William Franz elementary is only a couple blocks from the Bridges house, Ruby and Lucille climb into a car with these four officers and make the short drive together. Ruby remembers looking out the rear window and seeing her neighbors walking behind the car in a show of support.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Community. That little face.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She assumes it's because they're excited about her going to college. Damn it.

[Jacob Goldstein]

I love it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

God damn it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's so sweet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So the car comes to a stop. They've arrived at school. And for a split second, it really does feel like Marty Groovy. There are barricades set up, police on horseback, countless people shouting and doing what Ruby thinks is waving their hands in excitement. What she doesn't realize is they're actually throwing things and waving angry fists in.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The air at a child because a family wants their child to be educated. Like, fucking check yourself. Like, ask your motivations what they are.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But they did.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But how do you get away with that in your brain?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because you're raised in it, because it's taught to you, it's normalized to you, and it feels. It makes the bad part of what's going on inside you feel better by putting. Pushing it towards somebody else.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, Absolutely. Not an excuse, but, yeah, you don't question anyone.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You just accept things the way they come.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't do that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So Lucille is with Ruby the entire time. So the girl and her mother are quickly ushered into the school. Those marshals lead them straight to the principal's office where Ruby is sat down. And they wait to see which classroom she's going to join. And she watches through the office glass window looking out onto the school's hallway as white adults constantly come and go. And as they leave, they're often dragging a child with them. Again, Ruby will eventually learn these are the white parents yanking their kids out of class after watching her enter the school because they cannot have or fathom the idea of a black child being taught alongside their kids. Also, all of the teachers at this grammar school leave in protest, which is a heartbreaking sentence to read. It's just like, wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And the fucking teachers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Hours pass. Ruby and Lucille are sitting in the principal's office because all the teachers have left. No one's there to instruct Ruby. With no teacher, there's also no classroom. The principal is left trying to figure out what to do. So essentially, it's like, they passed this law. The government threatened them. They had to do it. And then they were just like, but we don't actually have to do it. There's nothing here.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So the four marshals continue guarding the door. Ruby and Lucille sit there until the end of the day. Bell rings at 3pm wow. And she is dismissed. Ruby remembers thinking, quote, wow, college is easy. Later that evening, when Ruby's dad asks her how it all went, she tells him she had a good first day. When the national news comes on that night, the protective wall her parents have built around her begins to crack because there is a story about her and her first day of school on that broadcast.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's unclear how much of the story Ruby actually watches, but she remembers her mom looking at the TV and saying out loud, oh, my God, what have I. Because of course you're in it, right? You don't understand the scope and the bigness and the symbolism of all of it. So the next morning, Ruby gets up and gets ready for her second day of first grade, and those same four marshals meet her and her mother at the front door, and they all ride to school together, and the marshals escort them back into the elementary school. What's different today is that there are noticeably more angry women set up outside that school. They're even more aggressive. They're throwing tomatoes and eggs at Ruby, Lucille, and the marshals, but mostly at a little tiny girl. They also are yelling racial slurs and death threats, saying they'll hang Ruby or they'll poison her food.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ruby will say that later. She blocked out a lot of what was happening in that moment. She did not realize that mob was threatening her until years later when she watches news footage. Essentially, it all allowed Ruby to maintain this lovely little innocent idea that she's going to college. And everybody's excited for her. Her mother and the marshals, of course, take those threats very seriously. Ruby will not be allowed to eat anything from the school for the entire year. Lucille packs her daughter's lunch every single day.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Of course, I mean, that's a detail I've never heard before. And that is just so horrific and.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Heartbreaking to feel surrounded by this majority of people who are like, we only. Like, we're going to threaten you in.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Every way possible, but I'm gonna ignore it, and I'm gonna fucking still. And I'm still going to make sure my daughter gets the education she deserves. Like, that woman is so brave. Yeah, she knew the threats, and, you know, Ruby didn't, but she and her husband did. And they said, we're still moving forward. Like, it's so brave.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so brave in the face of absolute insanity. Just insanity. So after pushing past this angry mob again, Ruby and her mother and the marshals enter the school. But unlike day one, Ruby won't spend the entirety of the day in the principal's office. She now has a classroom assignment. So as they move through the mostly empty school, there's an eerie silence. And Ruby will later say, quote, you could hear a pin drop when I walked up the stairs. Our footsteps echoed in the hallways. End quote. So they get to a classroom, but there's no students in it. But there is a white woman standing there. It's Ruby's new teacher, Barbara Henry. And she has immediate warmth and kindness about her. And as a New England native and a recent transplant to Louisiana, she also has a charming Boston accent. Again, no one explains anything to Ruby like why she's the only student in this class, or why her mother is sticking around for the entire school day, or why the US Marshals are still out outside the classroom. And of course, no one tells Ruby that the reason Mrs. Henry is here today is because she's the one white teacher in all of New Orleans willing to instruct a black student. I mean, shame, shame, shame.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So much shame on us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Instead, Ruby simply assumes this is how college works.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's like, when? When do I get to go to the dorms?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's the best.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is. This is college. You get a one on one. And she instantly takes to Mrs. Henry. Ruby remembers thinking, quote, she made me feel safe. She made school fun for me. I knew once I passed the crowd and got inside the building, I was gonna have a great day because of her. She showed me her heart, and I knew that she was different. Even though she looked like the people outside, she was different. Jesus Christ. End quote. Okay, so over the school year, Mrs. Henry creates a magical classroom experience for Ruby. An incredibly. Ruby absolutely loves going to school because of her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's amazing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So beautiful. So basically, when they can hear the racist chants and threats inside the classroom from outside. So those people stayed outside. They didn't have their kids in there. They pulled their kids out and then stood outside screaming at a school.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Every day, at a school, showing up to scream at a school. Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

To scream against progress. So when that happens and they can hear the mob outside, Mrs. Henry simply tells Ruby, quote, we're going to have music today. And then puts on music to drown out the noise. So it's not that Ruby is kept safe from the horrors of this situation. And in fact, she does remember seeing people carrying a child's coffin with a black doll inside of it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

At one point.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I've never heard that either.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep. As a six year old. And it gives her recurring nightmares, of course.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But her mother, Lucille, who never leaves her side, tells Ruby, quote, don't worry about those people. They're crazy. They need praying for, end quote. Which is very true. As time passes, a small handful of white students trickle back into William France Elementary. Some families support integrating William France, but others re enroll their children begrudgingly, just they had nowhere else to go. So at first, Ruby never sees these children. By design, the school's administrators try to keep her away from them, prompting Mrs. Henry to step in and confront the principal. Mrs. Henry even threatens to report the school to the federal government for continuing to disobey integration orders, which results in Ruby finally being allowed to share certain spaces, like play areas. So she could basically go outside at the same time. It's other kids. But then Ruby has an interaction with one of these children. When they're outside together. She sees a little boy. She asks him if he'd like to play with her. Cause she can sense that he wants to. But he tells her his mom won't let him play with a black child. But he doesn't say black child. He uses a racial slur. And this is the moment where it all clicks into place. Ruby will later say, quote, for months, I'd been trying to piece it together to figure out why the school was empty, why there are no kids that show up, why I can't just have lunch in the cafeteria. And this little boy looked at me and told me. I then realized it's not Mardi Gras. This is not college. It's about me. This is obviously devastating for Ruby, but she does have a support system around her, like her devoted and courageous mom, Lucille. But also a Harvard educated child psychologist named Dr. Robert Coles, who is so disgusted by reports of Ruby being harassed as she walks into school that he reaches out and offers counseling for her and her family.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He provides weekly sessions with them for that entire year.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So he just steps in and is like, okay, let's get through this. And of course, There's Ruby's teacher, Mrs. Barbara Henry. In fact, to this day, Ruby and Mrs. Henry, 20 years her senior, are still very close. Ruby has said, quote, the beauty of it all is that I made a friend at 6 years old that I am still friends with today. She's still my best friend.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And just think about that part. Ruby Bridges is still alive, and she's in, I believe, her early 70s.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Very young woman who went through this. This is not the past, the distant past that, oh, we've come so far. It's like this just happened to this woman. So when Ruby returns to William France elementary for second grade, things are different because now there are eight other black students in the first grade. But Ruby, who's now 7, arrives expecting the same setup as the year before. A one on one classroom led by Mrs. Henry. Instead, she's in an all white class, and her new teacher is one of the teachers who quit in protest the year before. And this teacher constantly belittles and embarrasses Ruby, particularly when she pronounces certain words with a tinge of Mrs. Henry's Boston accent.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ruby described her second grade experience as being, quote, almost like somebody clapped their hands and the carriage was gone and it turned into a pumpkin, dude. And she's there all by herself again. Everything Ruby has experienced is isolating and traumatizing, but she doesn't feel like she has many people she can talk to about it. Dr. Coles has since moved away from Louisiana, and Ruby's parents are experiencing a version of the fallout themselves. Aban and Lucille lose their job. Amidst all the coverage and the uproar around, Ruby's going to William France school. And even her sharecropper grandparents are evicted off their land in Mississippi.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because of it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The NAACP steps in to support the Bridges family, but it all puts such a huge strain on Bon and Lucille's marriage that they eventually separate. And on top of everything else, Ruby feels further isolated by the total lack of recognition by the city about what's happened to her and her family. She would later say, quote, the city didn't want to talk about it or deal with it. The whole country had watched how adults behaved in front of a six year old. Nobody wanted to relive that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

End quote. So life just goes on. The days pass, Ruby gets older. And without any outside acknowledgement or validation of her own experience, this becomes very difficult for Ruby to fully process everything that's happened. She's one of the first children to integrate New Orleans schools. But she starts to see this as a very personal thing, not something that has real significance in the world beyond her neighborhood. In New Orleans. Fast forward to the early 70s. Ruby's about 17 years old, and around this time, a journalist approaches her and asks for an interview because of a recently published painting by the famous artist Norman Rockwell. It's just run as a centerfold in look magazine. It's titled, quote, the Problem We All Live With. And here is that painting. If you've never seen it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, it's. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And there she is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She gives you chills. The tomato thrown against the wall. I mean, it's just.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. I'll read this for the listeners who aren't watching. Rockwell's painting depicts a young black girl in pigtails, clutching her school books, surrounded by four U.S. marshals that tower over her. A tomato has been hurled at the wall behind them. Its blood red juices drip down to the sidewalk and a slur is written on the wall. But the little girl continues marching forward, her head held high. When the reporter insists that this is Norman Rockwell's depiction of her, Ruby Bridges. Ruby can't believe it. Here's what she said about that whole situation. Up until that moment, I didn't think anyone remembered or cared or that it even mattered. I wasn't aware that it was important enough for this very famous artist to paint an amazing painting about it. I did not realize that my walk, my story, was a part of the civil rights family, the civil rights movement. I didn't realize it until that moment.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That idea that it's basically. She has her whole education arc. Basically, she's about to graduate from high school when this painting comes out and this all happens. And that's when she realizes it's so, like, life. We're like. Like, you go through this really hard, horrible thing, and like, yeah, life just goes on. Cause that's kind of how it works.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And sometimes people are there to kind of help you through the hard thing, but ultimately you are on your own, and you kind of march on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. And you don't realize the gravity of the important things that happen to you until you're past them. And maybe that's for the best because.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It'S so hard to, you know, to be processing that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. In real time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But then someone is like, hey, this is an unbelievable thing that actually happened. Do you want it? Let's all look at it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Incredible. So Ruby graduates from high school. She takes a job as a travel agent, and then she goes and sees the world.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She then gets married. She has four children. And then in the 1990s, when she's in her 40s, her old child psychiatrist, Dr. Robert Coles, publishes a children's book about her entitled the Story of Ruby Bridges.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It introduces countless more people to her historic tenure at William France Elementary. And what follows is a Disney biopic in 1998 for which Ruby is a consultant. And then President Clinton awards her the Presidential citizens medal in 2001.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow. I didn't know that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I didn't either. And then when President Barack Obama was in office, he invites her to come to the Oval Office so that they can meet. Ruby has talked about how nervous she was when she met him, saying, quote, he walked over to me and I extended my hand and said, it's such an honor to meet you. And when I did this, he put both hands on his hips and looked at me and said, are you kidding me? I'm getting a hug.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Aw.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And he threw his arms around me and said, I cannot begin to tell you what an honor it is to welcome you into this White House.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Bring it back.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Come on. I mean, did it ever happen? Over the years, Ruby has written several books and even established her own organization, the Ruby Bridges foundation, which sets out to, quote, offer programs and resources to guide and support younger generations on their pathway toward a more peaceful and harmonious future. End quote. Every year, they help organize commemorative walk to school days across the United States which honor her historic first steps into William France elementary and keep the history of hard fought school integration alive. Ruby's mom, Lucille, dies of cancer in 2020. She lived a good, long life. She was 86 years old. She was a fierce advocate for education throughout her telling children to, quote, study, listen to what their teachers tell them and their mothers and their fathers. After they get their education, they can be any person they want to be. Doctors, lawyers, or anything. But you have to have that education. And I would love for them to just listen to my story so they can know how hard it was for my kids to go to school.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Wow. I just don't take it for granted.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Have some sort of appreciation.

[Public Podcast Sponsor]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ruby, meanwhile, is now in her early 70s. After Lucille's death, she wrote a statement saying, quote, today our country lost a hero. Brave, progressive, a champion for change. She helped alter the course of so many lives by setting me out on my path as a six year old little girl. Our nation lost a mother of the civil rights movement today, and I lost my mom. I love you and I'm grateful for you. May you rest in peace. And that's the story of Ruby Bridges, whose bravery and intelligence changed history in America.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Holy shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can we see the picture of her?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God, she's so tiny.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's a tiny, tiny little girl.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Look at those little shoes and socks and her little face.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, I would love to know what those men are fucked in thinking.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm totally wondering the same thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like how do you stand around a little girl that's having that kind of hatred aimed and then go, these are the reasonable people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right? Or like not have some compassion if you hadn't had any before for what she's going through.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I mean they would have to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, you'd hope. Amazing. Oh my God. Great job.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Isn't that insane?

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's insane. I'm so glad you did that for Black History Month.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

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[Jacob Goldstein]

Is Jacob Goldstein from what's yous Problem? When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out Odoo at O D O o dot com. That's O D O o dot com.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let'S go on a completely different trajectory.

[Karen Kilgariff]

As we do this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Isn't that at all.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No. Nor should it be.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it won't be. It can't be.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's two different stories every time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's. That's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What we do is we're like lemon lime. We come in, we're like, do you like this flavor? We're changing the flavor.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Keep it fresh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're for everybody. We try to make sure we're for everybody.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. And by doing so, alienate most of those people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's our specialty. That's not true. If you don't like us, it's okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You don't know. Cause you're not here.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Good point.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Unless you're my mom who started fucking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, Janet.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Listen. Being on Netflix has made her finally able to listen to the podcast. Like, that's the only way she's been able to understand podcasts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's the only way she can access it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Now she has notes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Probably. Yeah. She said something. I love the way you. I don't remember. Can I read you the text?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Is it backhanded?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know. You tell me. I don't think so.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She said, I finished watching your first episode. It was great. You and Karen have a gift of making the audience feel a personal part of the conversation. Relaxed, fun, open and honest. Oh, and then. So you put Mimi down. My condolences. Not put Mimi down.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was a great parental text about.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. She's fine.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, she can get in there sometimes with the hardcore mothering.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She can say the words correctly. For sure. She knows those lines.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

For sure. That was really nice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was fun, casual.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, sorry, your cat's dead.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wait, that isn't true, though.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, she got. Mimi's still alive. Jesus. I don't know how much longer, but with pure spite and anger at the dog and cats. She's fucking living.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right. Today's story I actually found out about from some listeners named Gavin and Anna who wrote in a really great email, but it gives the whole story away, so I'm not gonna read it. Okay. But one of them, I can't tell which is a jazz historian and who studies the music of the 1920s. And so that's how they know about the story. I had never heard about it. Even though this person that I'm gonna tell you about today in a lot of ways had a bigger racket. And even Al Capone, but I haven't heard of him before. He was a character in the second season of Boardwalk Empire. And I wonder if you know who it is. Cause this is a very large human being played by Glenn Fleschler, who was. I don't wanna spoil. I don't wanna spoil. True detective from fucking eight seasons ago. Oh, yes, but he was the main guy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And he plays like that perfect bad guy. He just looks like a fucking old school gangster.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He does. And I think he was doing the kind of dead eye thing where he was very scary.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Everything he's been in, like he's been in Joker, he's been in all. Everything he's been in is like dark.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know what I mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

God forbid I say the name Kevin Spacey, but it's like he's that new, kind of like I'm the character actor that you think a real guy walked on set and started asking questions.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And the moment you see me on screen, you know, I'm. I'm here for trouble.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Some shit's going down.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, so that is who I'm telling you about today. This is a story about a 1920s bootlegger named George Remus. The so called king of bootleggers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hell yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And an eventual murder that he committed. Okay, so the main sources I used for this story are reporting from the Chicago Tribune and an article from American Heritage magazine by Bob Batchelor. The rest of the sources can be found in the. Okay, so most of these stories start with a guy being born into tough circumstances and embracing crime early on. But that's not exactly how it seems to go for our George. Though his family doesn't have much money, he does start out mostly on the straight and narrow. He's born in 1876 in Germany, the family immigrates to the United States when George is still pretty young. And they move around for a few years, and then they settle in Chicago. And so when George is a teenager, his first father gets sick. So George starts to support the family by working at his uncle's pharmacy. Eventually, he becomes a pharmacist himself. But in his early 20s, he decides to become a lawyer. So, like, I feel like these things were probably easier to become back then. You know, I want to be a pharmacist. I want to be a lawyer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It sounds a little bit like people. Kids playing at a birthday party or something where it's like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or like one of those, like, like, mail in of front for your certificate of authenticity of being a pharmacist. You know what I mean? To, like, one of those, like, schools.

[Karen Kilgariff]

For the lawyer, one you just have to keep on mailing in over and over.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it's like where Saul Goodman went.

[Karen Kilgariff]

To law school, essentially.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's harder now, I think.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Draw this, Turtle. You're a lawyer. Exactly, yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He graduates from law school around the time he's 24, and he becomes a criminal defense attorney. In a lot of contemporary discussions about George, he's presented as a respected defense attorney. But if you delve into some of the news stories from when he was practicing, it seems like he used tactics that other lawyers considered unethical, if not straight up illegal. So he wasn't the good guy that all lawyers usually are.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If you're a lawyer that's like, I'm not that into the law, then, yeah, there's some problems.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. So in 1914, when George is in his mid-30s, he gains nationwide fame by becoming the first lawyer ever to use a defense of, quote, transitory insanity, which in today's money, temporary insanity. That's right. So he's the first fucking dude to do that. Who knew? That case involves the murder of a woman by her husband, allegedly over an affair. George claims his client, named W.C. ellis, did kill his wife, but has no memory of the event. And the defense actually works. Ellis is acquitted. So that same case involves some level of unethical conduct. Before a verdict is reached, George claims that his client had been offered a bribe from his wife's family to, like, just a bunch of bullshit that he uses in court. And we don't really know what's true and what's not true. If he's stretching the truth or not, he probably is. Regardless, George is known around the Chicago courthouse as Crying Remus because He's known for his impassioned speeches, wild stories, and his flair for the dramatic. That's all you need to be a lawyer, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I think it's mostly acting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And theater, mate. Then go to. What's it called? Law school.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Go to law school. I mean, you could do it. You cried on cue. Thank you. Yeah, you could do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Since that's my thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Crying on cue, that's all you need.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I love school so much.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, you love school and homework and crying on cue.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So the other lawyers don't like it, but juries eat it up. So in 1899, back when he was about 23, he had married a woman named Lillian Clough. They have two daughters and actually one of the daughters named Romella, she becomes a child actress in silent films and plays Dorothy in the silent version of the wizard of Oz.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Total aside, that was Romella Clough.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love her role. That was George Ramis's daughter. Who knew?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Romella is one of the worst young names I've ever heard.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Rumella. It sounds like a fucking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like something you get inoculated from. That's wild.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Romella. Romella, Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

R O M R U R O.

[Georgia Hardstark]

M O L A Romala.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, still sucks.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. Okay, by early 1919, George is in his early.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Here come the emails.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know, right now they're from Netflix, too. Like, not just.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're like, I'm over here in. Wherever that name would be from.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is Romella Smith. How dare you? It's a family name.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Everyone likes this name.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I won best name three years in a row. Where? Okay, by early 1919, George is in his early 40s and he's extremely well known in Chicago. One night, in Evanston, the suburb just north of Chicago, a plumber. Okay, this is weird. A plumber named Herbert Young goes to the house of a divorced woman named Augusta Imogene Holmes. Great names. Who mostly she goes by Imogene. Imogene's teenage daughter Ruth, has lost her watch, and Imogene has said she'll give a reward to whoever finds it. And so Herbert, the plan plumber, finds it. But once he's there, he and Imogene get into an argument about how much the reward should be, and this turns into a physical altercation with the man who was there with Imogene, and this man turns out to be George Remus. Basically, this whole episode makes the papers and reveals that George, who, again, is pretty famous, is having an affair with Imogene and has been for the past five Years.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wait, so she gets into a fight so bad with this guy, guy not giving him the reward cuz he found.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Her daughter's watch, that it makes the papers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It makes the fucking papers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And his wife sees in the papers like, what are you doing at this woman's house?

[Karen Kilgariff]

And he's a lawyer, but he is not able to get her to stop that fight or handle it. Yeah, okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

His wife Lillian goes to visit Imogene and gets her to admit to the affair. So Lillian's like, fuck this shit. And says to the Chicago Tribune, quote, I told her I didn't want him. You mean they keep the rubbish? End quote.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Snap, snap, snap, snap, snap.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Have my fucking leftovers, bitch.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Bye. Enjoy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So they get divorced and George remarries Imogene. So this brings us to 1920, when the 18th Amendment and the Volstead act prohibit the production, importation, transportation and sale of alcohol in the U.S. yeah. Cheers. Pretty much as soon as Prohibition goes into effect, George starts representing clients who are being charged with the illegal production, transportation and sale of alcohol.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's just like, he gets right into that business.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. He's like, let's do this. He immediately notices how much money these people he is defending are making. And has to be a very impressive sum because as a lawyer, George had been making about 500,000 a year in 1920s money.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Half a million a year in 1920 money is how much and today.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So it's like over a hundred years. Half a million dollars.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So would he be now making $30 million a year?

[Georgia Hardstark]

8 million.

[Karen Kilgariff]

God damn it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know, I'm sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I always go way over.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's impossible.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's a personality flaw is what it is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I bet the jazz historians would know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just like, haha, we knew and you didn't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And so George realizes that he's uniquely suited to a career in bootlegging for two reasons. The first is that he's a lawyer, is very comfortable finding loopholes. Right. Even ones that are a little bit in the gray area. And the second is that his first career was as a pharmacist. And he's already found one such loophole allowing the sale of liquor for medicinal purposes. Did you know that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. During Prohibition, you could buy alcohol from your pharmacist if your doctor had prescribed it for you. Yeah, but like good alcohol too, because it had to be pure strength. It couldn't be bathtub gin. They got it from actual distilleries. So like, wow. Do you remember the first time you went to a weed doctor? To get your weed card. I was so terrified that the SWAT team was gonna come in.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I actually didn't go inside. I stood on the outside and I made somebody else go in.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You didn't get your own?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I was scared to death. No, I can't prove it. I didn't do anything.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I was terrified.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. It was horrifying.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So funny.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was very. Like when you grow up under that thing of like, this is the thing. This is how bad it is, or this is how. Whatever. And then you're just like, oh, ye. Drugs. And then it's like, nowadays it's like weed. It's like basically smoking. No one cares.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nobody cares. But it was so scary. And I didn't even, like, smoke weed. I just kind of wanted some gummies. I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just wanted to be a part of things.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I really did want to go into a weed store too. Cause you can't go in one or you couldn't go in one without the card. And I was so curious about what it looked like inside.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know everyone I knew was like, how do you get a card? And then I remember when I had my seizures, my neurologist was like, oh, that's like. That's actually good for that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like you. I can recommend it. Where I'm just like, my name will be on the list. I'm so afraid to be in trouble with the government.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And look at us now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Look at it now. Can you imagine? No Being worried about that list.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's not the list we need to be worried about.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Jesus Christ.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Blah, blah, blah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Gamergate was absolutely fabricated by Steve Job Bannon, who just fucking made the whole thing up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Pizzagate, too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Pizza gate. QAnon. I mean, obviously.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But they ate humans.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It didn't. It isn't real.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So George and Imogene moved to Cincinnati, Ohio, for the practical reason that the vast majority of the whiskey produced in the US is produced within 300 miles of Cincinnati. Did you know that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cincinnati. I hardly knew you. So he starts buying distilleries and legally provides what's called bonded whiskey, meaning that it has government stamp of approval that it's not going to make you go blind. It's not. That's not smart.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's not diluted or adulterated in any way. So that's what should be sold for medicinal purposes. Needless to say, because of that, George's product is very popular, but there is an issue of him only being able to sell it for medicinal use. So George is supposed to be wholesaling this liquor to other pharmacists, but that's a much smaller market than leisure drinkers. So he's like. Like, fuck all y'. All.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He gets around that by basically, like getting his whiskey stolen by his employees and then like confiscated by the police, Both of which he pays off. I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So like, he basically launders the liquor.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, exactly. In just a year or two, he's running a massive operation with 3,000 employees. And he's the source of one seventh of the whiskey sold in the United States under prohibition.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Within the first three years of being in business, George makes about $40 million.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Dang. Oh, wait.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In today's money.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fucking A.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So we were at half a million in back then and that was 8 million. So 40 million.

[Karen Kilgariff]

31 million.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It sucks. Ma'. Am. Like, I just don't know how to tell you, but. 648 million.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wait, I said less than what you said.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know. Go again. I did that. I did that on stage, remember? And everyone laughed and laughed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What it is is you start getting obsessed with the number.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like I have to pick a good number.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But you can't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You don't. Doesn't listen.

[Georgia Hardstark]

$648 million is what he's making off of this enterprise.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's basically the 20s, kind of Elon Musk type of guy, where he's like going into the you don't need that much money area.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally. And actually they use that money. George and Imogen, who's like younger and pretty than you know. She's like actually have a photo of her. Oh, she's very glamorous. She looks like the woman from the show with the weed. She sold the weed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah. Mary Louise Parker.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you, Mary Louise Parker. Doesn't she like a young Mary Louise Parker?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I can't see that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So she's young and glamorous and beautiful.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Here's a funny thing is. So this is from like the 1920s. Mm. They basically have her in a three quarter turn away from the camera.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. What's up with the other side of her face?

[Karen Kilgariff]

What's happening or the outfit or anything? It's just like. Is this back before photographers understood that, like you could see everything in the picture?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Maybe they're like, she had the most beautiful profile west of the Missis. I don't know what's west of the Mississippi, but. But you know, so he kind of got himself some arm candy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cause you know, she's younger and they move into a beautiful mansion.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I have to say stop. You do you know that thing where it's like, is this an old woman or a young woman? That's literally exactly what she looks like. Especially because I don't have my glasses.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or is it a young beauty cuz.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She has something on her chin? And then there's that feather.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally. It's very distracting. Like, is this the blank space or is this the blank space?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly. Is it a rabbit or a duck? I can't tell.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Send in drawing of it to get your law degree. Okay. So they throw these like, lavish parties at their beautiful mansion in Cincinnati. Cincinnati. They throw this huge party New Year's Eve when it's about to be 1922. They dedicate their brand new indoor swimming pool in the basement of their mansion. So they're fucking totally Elon Musking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They have money to burn.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And Imogene wears a scandalous bathing suit, which is like crazy for back then.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was to the knee. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Covered only half her face. Waitresses dressed in all white pass around champagne and whiskey. And at the end of the night, as a party favor. So it's said that each woman leaves with a pair of diamond earrings and every man leaves with a diamond pin. There's also rumors that it was actually a diamond necklace or a watch. And then there are some rumors that each party guest leaves with a car in the, like, early 20s.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. That's amazing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. But they are very generous with their friends, who probably don't need the fucking money anyways. And it's said that George is one of the bootleggers who inspired F. Scott Fitzgerald's Jay Gat.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That makes sense.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's obvious as to why, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But the good times don't last. Between 1922 and 1925, George is arrested multiple times and is convicted of tax evasion. He doesn't get any long prison sentences, probably because he bribes the authorities. But that comes to an end in 1925 when he's convicted of thousands of violations of the Volstead act and he's sentenced to two years in prison. Wants a picture of him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah. He has his back to the camera, just fully turned around. Oh, there he is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There is the profile, though, actually.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That actor looks so much like him. He has like, light eyes like that. Yeah. And he's very scary in that show.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He plays him in on Boardwalk Empire. You can see why.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Isn't that crazy?

[Karen Kilgariff]

This guy takes no shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. Don't come near him with your shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no, he's none for him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You Think he's sharing custody with his wife? His first wife, with the kids. Taking them to, like, you know, the carnival on the weekends. No, no, I guarantee you he's not taking his kids miniature golfing like my dad did.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He. No, he would hire, like, two. Two goons would take the kids miniature golfing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. That guy's serious.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Don't get on his bad side.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I kind of can't stop staring at him, though.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know. Don't get on his bad side. Except someone does. While he's serving his sentence of two years in prison, another inmate befriends him. And George eventually tells this man that his wife Im of his still very vast fortune. And it turns out that that inmate is actually an undercover agent from the Attorney General's office named Franklin Dodge.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You must like when people talk to you in prison. It must be such a. Just a whirlwind of emotions.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because you're like, it'd be great to have someone to talk to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I trust this dude. He's been around here. He told me what he did. I'll tell him what I did.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're at sharesies, sharesies. And now it's like, you used me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Keep your mouth shut.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Zip it. Nothing's real. There's no real friendship in prison.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Except for those. When they bring in those dogs or.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The cats too, there's don't get the cats. When they have the prisoners rehabilitate the dogs and cats, and then they get adopted.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It is so beautiful.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If you have an ex prison rehabilitated dog or cat, please write us in and tell us everything.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's such a good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My favorite Murder at Gmail. We need to know about that. That's weird. Fucking request. Okay, it is. So Franklin Dodge, instead of going to his boss with the information he gets from George, he resigns from his position and fucking woos and begins having an affair with Imogene. Oh. So I don't have a photo of him, but he must have been sexy as fuck.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And bold. And bold brave.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's like, instead of my job, I'm gonna go fuck your wife. Fuck your wife. While George is in prison, Imogene sells off almost his entire empire, including the house, and gives George $100 of the proceeds.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ooh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Once he's released from prison, Imogene attempts to have him murdered by a hitman. But the hitman worries about going against George, who of course, has a lot of connections in the underworld. So he instead tells George about the plot.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Good well. Oh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In the fall of 1927, Imogene files for divorce from George. And on his way to the courthouse to finalize the divorce, George has his driver chase Imogene's car, which she's in with. Riding in with her daughter Ruth, the watch chick from before. Right. And eventually George jumps out of the car and Imogene takes off running. And in the street, with onlookers watching in shock, George shoots Imogene in the stomach, and she. And she dies at the hospital.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. George immediately goes to the police station. He gets in another car, and he goes straight to the police station and turns himself in, and he's charged with Imogene's murder. And the case goes to trial in December of that same year. George represents himself with the assistance of another lawyer. The trial is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think he is a lawyer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So I forgot.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The trial is, as you would guess, a massive sensation, and the courthouse is packed. George's first wife and daughter testify on his behalf, while his stepdaughter Ruth, who had been at the scene, testifies against him. George's defense, temporary insanity. It's like he was setting it up that whole time so he could use it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He delivers his own defense with his trademark histrionics. Men are so emotional. You know what I mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

They can't handle anything he tells.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like his dramatic retelling of the story. It's basically the same kind of song and dance he did to get his clients off. And it works for George, too. After only 19 minutes of deliberation, the jury finds him not guilty for reasons of insanity.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This means that George will have to go to a psychiatric hospital where prosecutors try to make him stay. Like, they try to get him to stay there a long time because they're like, this guy tried to kill his wife. Let's get him stuck here. But here's what's so crazy. They had gone to such great lengths to prove that he wasn't insane that they couldn't then prove he was and make him stay. Yeah. Isn't that like. That seems like a double entendre. What's the thing?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Double indemnity or whatever. No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That seems ironic.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But also, it seems like that should be. If you get off on that, like, technicality or whatever, there should be a sentence. Yeah. Because it's the prosecution's job to try to make it prove that he wasn't crazy. So then what? It's like, then you're like, you should have Never brought that up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like, this isn't a family fight at Christmas.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally. And then, like, also, that doesn't mean that he's, like, cured and you can just let him go and he won't do it again.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And so George is released from the psychiatric hospital after only seven months.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry. We also have to remind everybody he has all the money in the world.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So that probably has a lot to do with it, too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Where he's like, I'm not going to be staying here. I have money.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Once he's released, George marries his longtime secretary, a woman named Blanche Watson. Great name. They move across the Ohio river to Covington, Kentucky, and George lives a quiet life there, running a small contracting business, which he runs until 1950, when he suffers a stroke and he dies two years later at the age of 66.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And that is the story of the king of bootleggers, George Remus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

God damn.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Have you ever heard of this guy?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Never heard of him. And he had, like, six different jobs and ends as a contractor.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What does that mean? What was he really?

[Karen Kilgariff]

A builder. But, like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know, but, like, do you think that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, I think he's just a boss. I think he's good at bossing people around. So it was probably just like, get five guys and we'll figure out a way to build this house. Wow. That's me fully guessing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm shedding something and I'm. It's worrying me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Where do you think it's coming off of you? That's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's. I mean, therein lies the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What color is it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's white.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that could be.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just do a little dandruff test and see what comes off of there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't see anything.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think this is just how it is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. All right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, it's my arm.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's why you have to spill your Diet Coke. Do you have arm makeup on?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're just, like, big, long, white streaks.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's really gross.

[Karen Kilgariff]

My full body makeup's coming off. I don't know why.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's Netflix, baby. I gotta wear full body makeup now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We've gone absolutely insane. We truly have. For Netflix.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, thanks for listening, everyone. Thanks for watching.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thanks for watching our podcast and listening to our video. Yeah, we're with you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We. We. We are. We appreciate you. Thank you guys for tuning in here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, thanks for tuning in and stay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sexy and don't get murdered. Goodbye, Elvis. Do you want a.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This has been an exactly right production.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Our senior producer is Molly Smith and our associate producer is Tessa Hughes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This episode was mixed by Liana Squillacci.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our researchers are Marin McGlashan and Ali Elkin.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Email your hometowns to my favorite murdermail.com.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And follow the show on Instagram at.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My Favorite Murder Listen to My favorite murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And now you can watch My Favorite Murder on Netflix.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And when you're there, hit the double thumbs up and the remind me buttons. That's the best way you can support our show. Goodbye this episode is brought to you in part by Vital Farms.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Have you noticed that the egg section at the grocery store has gotten very complicated lately?

[Georgia Hardstark]

But Vital Farms makes it simple. Pasture raised eggs traceable to the farm.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Their hens have outdoor access year round with fresh air and sunshine, and forage on rotated pastures with local grasses.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Every carton can be traced back to the farm it came from, so you can see the pasture where the hens visiting vitalfarms.com farm look for the black.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Carton in the egg aisle and visit vitalfarms.com to learn more.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Vital Farms Good eggs, no shortcuts.

[Public Podcast Sponsor]

Goodbye this February, Aldous Hodge returns as Alex Cross, your favorite detective on television for season two of the hit show Cross, now streaming exclusively on Prime Video. Fresh off his capture of the infamous serial killer, the fanboy Cross teams up with the FBI to hunt down a vigilante so serial killer targeting corrupt billionaires. As the case unfolds, Kross navigates a moral crossroads where the lines between justice and vengeance are blurred. Catch Season two of Cross, with a new episode dropping weekly, now streaming only on Prime Video.

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