522 - Live at the Paramount Theatre (Denver Night 2)

Summary

My Favorite Murder – Episode 522: Live at the Paramount Theatre (Denver Night 2)

Date: March 5, 2026
Hosts: Karen Kilgariff & Georgia Hardstark
Location: Paramount Theatre, Denver
Episode Theme:
A lively, laughter-filled return to Denver after six years, this episode blends darkly fascinating true crime, the weirdness of Colorado, and the hosts’ signature blend of camaraderie and wild storytelling. The show covers local legends, haunted hotels, and iconic investigative women, topped off with a memorable audience "hometown" story from a real-life homicide prosecutor.

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Main Themes & Episode Overview

• Return to Denver: Celebration of their long-awaited comeback tour after a six-year hiatus.
• Signature Banter: Karen and Georgia’s classic, improvisational storytelling, self-deprecating humor, and audience engagement.
• Feature True Crime Story: The trailblazing life and work of Denver journalist Nell “Polly Pry” Campbell, whose reporting helped free the infamous “Colorado Cannibal,” Alfred Packer.
• Local Ghost Lore: The hauntings and history of The Stanley Hotel, inspiration for Stephen King’s The Shining.
• Audience Participation: Hometown story from a Colorado homicide prosecutor.
• Emphasis on Humor as a Coping Mechanism: Reflections on true crime, trauma, and laughter as catharsis.

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Episode Structure & Key Segments with Timestamps

1. Opening & Audience Welcome (03:17–10:00)

• High-energy greeting to Denver; crowd excitement at the long-awaited return.
• Recap of last night’s (Night 1) chaos, forgotten basics, and moth antics.
  • "A moth, like, flew out of my dress and just hung out on stage all night" (Georgia, 05:49).
• Air guitar fulfillment for an audience member (04:08–04:39).
• Karen’s Rocky Stadium anecdote and Georgia’s vintage shopping adventure—classic local flavor.

2. Catching Up and MFM’s True Crime Philosophy (10:00–16:30)

• Reflecting on live show mishaps, hot dog cosplay, and participatory bits.
• The hosts explain their unique blend of true crime and comedy:
  • "The reason that we do this podcast is because we have loved true crime since we were young, because we were incredibly traumatized by our childhoods. And one of the ways that we deal with trauma is through humor and comedy.” (Karen, 14:24)
  • "Cathartic, even, you'd say." (Georgia, 14:54)
• Listeners urged to embrace or leave if the mix of comedy and murder isn't for them.

3. Main Story 1 – The Legend of Nell “Polly Pry” Campbell (20:32–59:53)

Told by: Karen
Timestamps: 20:32–59:53

• Recap of Alfred Packer’s Infamy: (21:25)
  • Brief retelling of Packer, the “Colorado Cannibal,” setting up the stake for Nell's involvement in his story.
• Nell’s Early Life & Journalism Career:
  • Born 1859, Illinois; refuses societal norms, stands out for alien-like beauty and maverick attitude. "She also has a tendency to literally do whatever she wants at all times. She does not care about societal conventions." (Karen, 26:26)
  • Divorce, reinvention in New York gossip circles, transitions to serious investigative journalism.
  • Origins of her nickname “Polly Pry”—“she just gets them shit-faced, I bet.” (Georgia, 31:32)
• Breaking into Denver Journalism:
  • “No stranger to putting her foot in her mouth,” Nell accidentally insults Denver Evening Post co-owner and lands a job (33:12–33:57).
  • Becomes Denver Post’s first female reporter, shakes up Denver media with her uncompromising style.
    • “If tones could freeze, the marrow in my bones would have congealed then and there. The voice of the would-be senator was so icily on, unfriendly.” (Karen quoting Nell, 35:35)
• Trailblazing & Controversial Reporting:
  • Goes after powerful men, socialites, even the famous Molly Brown.
  • Sent to interview Alfred Packer in prison—and becomes convinced of his wrongful conviction, publicly campaigns for his release.
  • Legendary Showdown: During a newsroom confrontation, Nell shields her boss from gunfire—“She placed herself in front of his pistol and moved with it as he tried to reach me. Badass.” (Karen, 46:22)
• Lasting Impact:
  • Her advocacy helps Packer get paroled; further exposes horrific abuses in prisons, asylums, and Native boarding schools.
  • “The power of journalism.” (Georgia, 50:53)
  • Not immune to her era’s prejudices; both progressive (Native rights, women’s suffrage) and reactionary (anti-immigrant labor tirades).
  • Multiple attempts on her life—allegedly for her writing.
  • Founds Denver's only female-led publication; covers everything from theatre to politics.
  • “Just believe. Believe that if you insult men enough, they'll give you a job.” (Georgia, 34:09)
  • Marries (secretly), divorces, continues reporting into her seventies.
  • Dies at 79, remembered as having “paved the way for women journalists who came after her.” (Karen, 59:53)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• “Do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today day.” (Karen, end credits)
• “I must be up. And...” – Nell Campbell’s last words before her death (Karen, 59:23)
• “What would matter to her the most is that she paved the way for women journalists who came after her...” (Karen, 59:53)

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4. Main Story 2 – The Hauntings of The Stanley Hotel (62:47–86:58)

Told by: Georgia
Timestamps: 62:47–86:58

• Setting the Scene: Estes Park, inspiration for Stephen King’s Overlook Hotel.
• Stephen King’s Experience:
  • “It was like God had put me there to hear that and see those things.” (Stephen King, as quoted, 65:51)
  • His stay alone with wife Tabitha, the eerie emptiness, and the dream that led to The Shining’s creation.
  • "If I walked into a restaurant and all the chairs were on the table. I'd be like, they don't want us here." (Karen, 65:56)
  • Anecdote: Tabitha threatened to divorce Stephen over his endless playing of “Mambo No. 5” while writing another book (68:06).
• History & Ghost Stories:
  • Built by Freeland Oscar Stanley for TB recovery, 1909.
  • Nearly every room “haunted”—including infamous Room 217, where Stephen King stayed.
    • Story of chambermaid Elizabeth Wilson, explosively injured but survived, now said to haunt Room 217 by tidying or untidying guests’ belongings.
  • Reports of spectral rocking chairs, children’s laughter, bouncing balls, unexplained scents (rose perfume), and piano playing.
    • “Explain that scent. That's my new game show.” (Karen, 74:06)
  • Actual ghost photos shared, audience reactions to their authenticity.
  • Connection to The Shining (film and miniseries), as well as “Dumb and Dumber” (hotel filming location).
  • Annual themed ball and stories of looting, pranks, and ongoing paranormal tourism.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• “If guests are messy and have left their clothes lying around and they come back to the room, they find all their clothes flung around in different places. She's, like, pissed and makes it worse. Which sounds like you got shit faced last night and don't remember doing that.” (Georgia, 79:03)
• “Any child. Ghost child. So scary.” (Karen, 74:56)
• “Does anyone know whether or not they decorated from home goods there is all we're saying. It's like you. You have to ask the hard questions.” (Georgia, 83:31)

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5. Hometown Story – Christina, the Homicide Prosecutor (89:36–92:36)

Timestamps: 89:36–92:36

• Audience member Christina (hot dog shirt) picked for “hometown” segment.
• Reveals she’s a homicide prosecutor from Colorado Springs.
• Describes first homicide trial: Elizabeth Kramer murdered, body found in tote on Gold Camp Road, discovered by teens on Snapchat. Suspect (her child's father) Googled "how to get away with murder" and was convicted.
• Forensic witness was Sherry Holes—wife of famed MFM regular Paul Holes.
• “She told her husband. And then I met Paul later, and he was the one—oh, you're the one that embarrassed yourself in front of my wife.” (Christina, 92:17)
• Case affirmed on appeal; applause for justice and her storytelling.

---

Memorable Moments & Humor

• Air guitar fulfillment and vintage fashion show—“No pockets, because vintage doesn't really do that. Women don't need pockets. They need a handbag, you know. Fuck you.” (Georgia, 08:08)
• Hot dog cosplay and "Christian true crime" jokes.
• Ongoing battle with moths in the theatre—“The moth was the third lead of the show” (Karen, 05:58).
• Playful ribbing about remembering what to do on stage and self-deprecating asides about their professionalism.

---

Quotes to Remember

On Comedy and Trauma:

"We do this podcast...because we have loved true crime since we were young, because we were incredibly traumatized by our childhoods. And...deal with trauma is through humor and comedy."
—Karen (14:24)

On Breaking Barriers:

“What would matter to her the most is that she paved the way for women journalists who came after her to sit proudly in their newsrooms.”
—Karen on Nell Campbell (59:53)

On Audience Participation:

"If you really want to do a hometown, stop drinking now."
—Georgia (13:06)

On Stephen King:

"If I walked into a restaurant and all the chairs were on the table. I’d be like, they don’t want us here."
—Karen (65:56)

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Useful Timestamps

• 03:17 – Crowd greeting & show intro
• 20:32 – Karen starts story on Nell “Polly Pry” Campbell
• 62:47 – Georgia starts story on The Stanley Hotel
• 89:36 – Hometown story (Christina, homicide prosecutor)

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Final Thoughts

This Denver live show exemplifies what MFM fans love: irreverent humor, sharp storytelling, honest looks at trauma and injustice, surprising history, and a warm, rowdy connection to their audience. Both major stories celebrate Denver’s wild side—one through the lens of a legendary journalist who risked it all, and one through the city’s famously haunted hotel. The hometown segment delivers a gripping, real-life criminal case, bringing it all home.

Stay Sexy, Don’t Get Murdered, Denver!

Transcript

[Karen Kilgarin]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgarin]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgarin]

America's Best Warranty claim based on total package of warranty programs. See dealer for limited warranty details. See your Hyundai dealer for further details and limitations. It's a new year and that means New Year's resolutions. So why not resolve to get more comfy?

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgarin]

I gotta tell you Georgia, here's my secret. I'm wearing Bombas socks right now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgarin]

And they're tall and beautiful and purple and they're so cozy. These BOMBA socks are like you wash them a million times, they look great. They're super comfortable. I don't know, it's like they're a perfect sock.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What more could you want? Head over to bombas.com mfm and use code mfm for 20% off your first purchase.

[Karen Kilgarin]

That's B O M B A S.com mfm code mfm at checkout. Goodbye. Sometimes you still want the familiar routine of a drink, just not everything that comes with it. Like lifelong regrets.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgarin]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgarin]

Whether you're hosting, toasting or just winding down, RK lets you celebrate without compromise. All the cheers, none of the hangovers. I really love the idea of RK because it really is sometimes about ritual. You want to belong. You want to have a drink with people. You want that feeling. But the next day you want to be able to go to work and be a hundred percent. So this is like a nice little bridge to you still get to be at the party and then you get to live your Best life.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Try the Zero Proof Revolution at rk0proof.com.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What's up, denver?

[Karen Kilgarin]

Oh, my God. We're gonna need hearing aids after this city. I swear to go.

[Georgia Hardstark]

God, I. I always forget that's going to happen until I start walking on stage and then it, like, surprises me. Wow.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Wow. Hi.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you guys for being here. Oh, my God, Denver. This is. This has been real.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yeah. Thanks for being so patient these six years and waiting for us to come back. Come back. We really appreciate that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We do. I'm really mad, though, because she has a sign and she's not wrong.

[Karen Kilgarin]

What's it say?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It says, georgia, you promised air guitar. Do you remember?

[Karen Kilgarin]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I said, if we ever go back on tour, I'll do air guitar. Okay, But I need music. But I need.

[Karen Kilgarin]

But I use music here. Wait, I'll do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Vince.

[Karen Kilgarin]

No, no, no, no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you. Not the worst.

[Karen Kilgarin]

She clearly didn't think we were ever gonna come back onto stage. I think that's what we can interpret from that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I'm gonna barf. That was just an air guitar to nothing on stage. And that's what we do here.

[Karen Kilgarin]

And that's what we do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So last night. Was anyone here last night? Thank you. Front row. The rest of you? I don't know. The rest of them were at Lincoln Park.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yeah, you assholes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We know.

[Karen Kilgarin]

We know what you're like back there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Last night was fun because we forgot how to do this. It was our first night back in six years.

[Karen Kilgarin]

We just kept calling line, line over and over. No one had the script in hand.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Terrible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We forgot the basics. But tonight is going to be fucking, like.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yeah, Ridiculous. Oh, like, this is the podcast My Favorite Murder. Oh, yeah, there's one of them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's Karen Kilgarin.

[Karen Kilgarin]

That's Georgia Hardstark.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We literally forgot to do that last night.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Didn't do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, we literally forgot to introduce ourselves.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Simply didn't introduce ourselves or the show like true show business professionals. It was.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But you know what did happen is a moth, like, flew out of my dress and just hung out on stage all night. Yeah, it was pretty special.

[Karen Kilgarin]

The moth was the third lead of the show last night. And then we found out that you guys love moths here. Apparently. Crazy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They're good luck, right?

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Why doesn't anyone ever, like, I'm the only person who knows that I made it up.

[Karen Kilgarin]

She made it up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgarin]

That's that thing with when you're the only person that knows something because you're just lying. Moths Are good luck. Like in Silence of the Lambs.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know that fairy tale movie, Silence

[Karen Kilgarin]

of the Lamb Lions. Someone made a bracelet for us last night that said, may I use your phone, please?

[Georgia Hardstark]

If you know, you know, right?

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And you went to a baseball game, right?

[Karen Kilgarin]

Oh, the first day I was here, my sister, who's very bossy, told me that I had to go to the Rocky Stadium and see what was going on over there. Just so happened they were playing the young San Francisco. I know it's probably called something else, but this isn't about correct details. I hope you know that. So they were playing the young San Francisco Giants where I'm from. So it was just like, you know, all good and then.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Except there was a fight in the crowd, right?

[Karen Kilgarin]

Even better.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't think it was so good.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Come on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And you did you.

[Karen Kilgarin]

That's me. I went down there. I was like, why don't you guys act more like hockey players? And they were like, fun. And then they did. No, it was gorgeous. It was beautiful. The sunset. I was like, yeah, I get it. I get Denver, you get sports.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, Denver. Yes, for sure.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Sports. We were like. We stood there for half an hour, kind of looked around. They were like, gorgeous. Okay, here we go. We'll find out the score later. And what have you been doing?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I went to a vintage store yesterday, because you have to, and I found this literal fucking dress there. Thank you. It's called.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Do you want to take a pass? Just go ahead and show everybody. Look at her go.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No pockets. Because vintage doesn't really do that.

[Karen Kilgarin]

They won't do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They're so like. Women don't need pockets. They need a handbag, you know, Fuck you. It's called. It was called. I got. I just said the name.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Bombshell.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Bombshell.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Bombshell. Vintage. Very fucking awesome store promo code. Murder. Oh, I forgot my ring. Shit. Oh, show's over.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Wait.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Gold mine. Gold mine. It was called gold mine.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Oh, shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you, Vince.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Should Vince come out and just say hi for one second?

[Georgia Hardstark]

There he is right there.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yeah, there he is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My husband.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you.

[Karen Kilgarin]

We decided that's our new thing for this tour, is we're going to do a lot of this at each other.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Everybody loves that kind of phony because we're so humble. You guys know that about us.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Bless and blessed be and bless you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is a Christian true crime comedy. No, it's not.

[Karen Kilgarin]

That's the reveal. In these six years, we have married Christ and dedicated our lives.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You came to the wrong show. What else also?

[Karen Kilgarin]

Oh, I'll show my dress.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. Show your dress. I'm sorry.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Pockets, pockies. What'd you have in there?

[Karen Kilgarin]

A little lip gloss in case my mouth gets so dry that my lips stick to my teeth.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Showbiz, baby.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Showbiz.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cool. Well, I forgot to put the Kleenex in my Spanx tonight, so my nose is just gonna free run for the whole show.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Let it go. It's your show.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, yeah. Oh, I found out that nervous nose running is a thing, so that's what I have.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Nnr.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Everything fucking else that I have.

[Karen Kilgarin]

You're suffering from nnr. That's terrible. So sorry.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You don't have to suffer alone if

[Karen Kilgarin]

you suffer from NNR or someone in your family does.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I might need a tissue. Vince. I'm sorry. Thank you.

[Karen Kilgarin]

We just keep making them come out over and over. That's the new bit. That's the new act.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. Never mind. She has.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Oh, we're good. Thank you so much. Classy. Very classy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you, angel. Thank you.

[Karen Kilgarin]

See? See how it is?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. I almost stuck that sticker the open here on my chest because that's what I do when I, like, eat an apple. I put the sticker on myself.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Oh, thanks, Vince. He's clearly not watching the show backstage.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Just kidding. Just kidding.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I thought you guys were really upset about my apple eating. No. Okay.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Oh, wait a second. I think we do have to talk about the hometowns from last night. Look, some of you were there, and, you know, we just want to talk about how it was for us. First of all, a woman named Katie sat front and center dressed as a hot dog. And we were like, this is the best. And then we're like, great, you can be the audience ambassador and teach us how to pronounce everything that we're going to mispronounce in this town. And she's like, I'm not from here. We're like, fuck you, Katie.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then when we met her later, she was like, I really thought a lot more people would dress like hot dogs.

[Karen Kilgarin]

She thought it was her heart. Like, we're a hot dog cosplay live podcast comedy show.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hell yeah, Christian cosplay hot dogs.

[Karen Kilgarin]

So many corners to touch, negotiate. But this was my favorite. This truly is. It's a misunderstanding. We didn't truly. We didn't know our line. So when it came to the part, we were supposed to tell people, like, hey, here's the rules for hometowns. People want you to do it local, you know, don't take too long, blah, blah, blah. And we didn't say any of that. We're just like, get up here and tell your hometown. And so the first person, her name was Katie. Also, I think if I'm.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I have no fucking clue.

[Karen Kilgarin]

But okay, I could just be like, look, everyone's name. Katie. But she came up and we were like, hi, what's your name? She's like, katie. And we're like, where are you from? And she's like, broward, Florida. And the entire audience starts booing, don't do it again. Don't do it again.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We didn't say it was totally on us. Like, we didn't say what's on them too.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Don't. This is not Linkin Park. For fuck's sake. Be nice. I don't have to be nice. You have to be nice. But she basically said, broward, Florida. And then stood there smiling. And we're just like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We go, what's your hometown?

[Karen Kilgarin]

And she was like, broward, Florida. And we're like, thanks so much. And she walked off the stage.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgarin]

But then later we met her in the vip and she was like, oh, no, I had a story. I just got scared and left the stage. See what I mean about what you did?

[Georgia Hardstark]

So here's actually. Here's a good tip. If you really want to do a hometown, stop drinking now.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cause it's scary up here, and being shit faced does not help with it. Or a little. I guess it does a little bit. I don't know.

[Karen Kilgarin]

And if you really want to do a hometown and you can't stop drinking now, you're an alcoholic. So there's a lot to get from this show tonight. A lot to glean from the show.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hey, shall we sit down?

[Karen Kilgarin]

I guess so.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thanks.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Georgia did remember that line last night. That was a huge relief.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I sure did.

[Karen Kilgarin]

We knew to sit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow. Okay.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yeah. Let's cheer for the logo designed by Georgia Heartstark. Does everybody know that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, with, like, the Notes app or something. Say it in 2016.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow. Something like this. Okay.

[Karen Kilgarin]

George is like, do you want this to be the logo? Yes. And I'm like, do you want this to be the theme song? And she's like, yes. And I'm like, all right, let's do this thing. We'll quit in three weeks.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And we did.

[Karen Kilgarin]

And we.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you want to tell them about this podcast? Okay.

[Karen Kilgarin]

This is a true crime comedy podcast.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Thank you. Some people don't like that combination. They don't like the idea they get very sensitive about it. So we do want to tell you that the reason that we do this podcast is because we have loved True Crime since we were young, because we were incredibly traumatized by our childhoods. And one of the ways that we deal with our trauma is through humor and comedy. And the other way is by reading a lot of True Crime. And we found that combination to be very satisfying when we met each other.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cathartic, even, you'd say.

[Karen Kilgarin]

I would say, yeah. And so we know that there are people who would argue or maybe have other things to say. And what we would like to say is get the fuck out right now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgarin]

It'd be so fun if like the entire first three rows were like, we're gone.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Someday. Someday. It's like that the bus from the senior center accidentally stopped here. And it's just like a whole fucking row of grandmas.

[Karen Kilgarin]

You're just like that. But that happened in Florida. Remember the live show? Yes, we had a live show in Florida. Stop booing. Broward, Florida. We had this live show in Florida and there were these two women who were older and they were all dressed up and very fancy looking, but total someone's fancy grandmas. And I couldn't stop looking at them the whole time where I'm like, whose fancy grandmas are these? That are here at our live show in Florida. And we met them after words and they were season ticket holders that were like, what's this? And they came to this swear fest murder show where we were like, oh my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But did. Did we win them over? We sure did. They have the listeners now.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yeah, we did.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So if you don't like it, there are grandmas better than you out there in Florida.

[Karen Kilgarin]

For sake Florida.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So, like, you have no excuse.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Can you imagine mean tonight? I'm not sure. We are working through a lot of emotions. It's so exciting to be here tonight. It is so exciting. It really is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It is. I think you're first tonight.

[Karen Kilgarin]

I am.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I double checked.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then I said to Molly, we should really have that in the header of our, like when they print the stories. And she goes, it's.

[Karen Kilgarin]

It's there. It's there. Yeah. Just read the fucking paper.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm like, you are fucking smart, but you should probably tell us anyways.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Love working with you. Love working with you. Oh, and Molly also sent us all of our lines.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That was a little. That's a little passive aggressive of her.

[Karen Kilgarin]

What are you wearing tonight, Karen?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It says, what's up city?

[Karen Kilgarin]

What's up city.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Think we've got that one. At least I'm not having a hot flash tonight. I literally had a hot flash on Saturday stage last year.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yeah, you better. You got to represent the Perry and the Menopausals.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, right. When I was at lunch today, Vince and I were at this bar and because of course we were, and two seats down, I just hear out of the corner of my ear.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Corner of your ear? Absolutely.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I. I think I hear, oh, a hot flash. And I turn and look and she's taking a little portable fan out of her purse. And I just like, we bonded. I was like, did you just say hot flash? I did. And she. Brilliant. Anyway, Karen, you're first tonight.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Anytime you have a story like that, please jump in.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right,

[Karen Kilgarin]

this podcast is brought to you by Squarespace.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgarin]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgarin]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgarin]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgarin]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgarin]

Goodbye. In the new HBO Original Series DTF St. Louis, everyone looks normal from across the street.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But who wouldn't kill to spice things up?

[Karen Kilgarin]

Jason Bateman, David Harbour and Linda Cardellini star as three suburbanites experiencing midlife malaise.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When two of them attempt to spice up their love lives on a dating app called DTF St. Louis, an unexpected love triangle ends with one of them dead.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Don't miss the new HBO original series, DTF St. Louis, premiering March 1 on HBO. Max. Goodbye. So maybe some of you were here when we played the belko Theater in 2019. Thank you. Thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That was an awesome show.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Those are all my cousins. So that night when we played the Bellco, and sorry to keep on mentioning the rival theater, Paramount, but I told the story of the Colorado cannibal, Alfred Packer. Thank you so much. I agree. So, really quick, before I get into my story, which is not that story, but I'm gonna just refresh you about that story because it is a part of this current news story. You understand what I'm saying? Do you?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm there, I'm here.

[Karen Kilgarin]

I'm gonna focus more on you. I think it'll help more.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Tell me the story.

[Karen Kilgarin]

It's your thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

More than. Okay. They're all drag alongs.

[Karen Kilgarin]

We didn't talk about the drag alongs.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We didn't.

[Karen Kilgarin]

It's supposed to go at the top of the speech about get the fuck out, but it's fine.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Molly was right about the notes, okay?

[Karen Kilgarin]

She's like, if you could just read them quickly before you walk on stage. And we're like, no, no, we'll read them on stage after we forget them. It's the new show business, okay? So back In February of 1874, Alfred Packer was one of six gold miner or prospectors, I think is more accurate. And they got lost in the San Juan Mountains during one of the worst winter storms Colorado had ever seen. When the storm lets up, Alfred is the only survivor. He walks into the Indian agency claiming that the rest of the group left him behind when his feet became frozen. Mean. So he says he doesn't know where they are, but Authorities start to get suspicious about him when Alfred, who was known to be penniless, buys a horse and a saddle and starts drinking and playing a lot of cards in the saloon.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He doesn't just eat them, he steals from them. Like, that's not.

[Karen Kilgarin]

It's so gorilla. So they start questioning him further. And that's when he admits that he did eat the other five people in that party. But he's basically. The whole story was. I was lost for a month. It was pure desperation. He tells the whole story. Unfortunately, a little while later, an illustrator from Harper's Bazaar magazine is out here figuring out what the Wild west is about. And he comes upon five dead bodies that are lined up on a riverbank. And they've all been smashed in the head with a hatchet. And one of them is decapitated. And those are the rest of the party Alfred Packer was traveling with. So his story suddenly comes into question.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Listen to me gasping. Even though I was definitely there for the story.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't remember it.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yeah, it's all new.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yeah. That's the fun of this. So he's arrested, tried, found guilty on five counts of voluntary mail manslaughter. Sentenced to 40 years in prison, which is a huge sentence back then. He files appeal after appeal with the help of a friend, but they're all denied. In. In 1901, he gets paroled. It's less than halfway through his sentence. So today I'm going to tell you about that friend that helped Alfred Packer take two. That helped Alfred Packer, the Colorado Cannibal. Yep. Go free from jail. This person was not a lawyer, not a politician. She was a gossip writer turned investigative journalist who made her name writing stories that earned her both respect and infamy. And she was the first female reporter that the Denver Post ever hired. You might know her by her. You might know her by her pen name, Polly Pry. This is the life story of Nell Campbell.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Bye. Hell, yeah.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Great. Great job.

[Karen Kilgarin]

The sources that were used in this story today are a book by Julia Bricklin called the Woman who Wrote the West. And there's around Polly Pry and Nell Campbell. There's a lot of mythologizing, of course, when it's like old history like that. And she herself was kind of a sensational journalist for some part of her career. And Julia Brooklyn gets in there and basically sets up, separates all the fact from fiction and is amazing. That's all from Maren. I have not read this book. I don't. Stolen Valor. I didn't read the Book. There's also an article from Colorado Life magazine by Matt Masich. And the rest of the sources are in our show notes. You can go check those.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I guess you guys love show notes. Show notes. It's your favorite thing.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Okay, so here we go. Leah. Nell Campbell, nicknamed nell, is born November 27, 1859 in Clinton, Illinois. Have lied about her birthday to everyone for her whole life, but Julia Britlin verifies that this is actually her real birthday. Okay, thank you, Julia. Nell's parents are relatively wealthy. Wealthy enough that she is educated at a private boarding school. That's rich.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgarin]

But it's back in a time where women are expected to blend in and Nell very much stands out. She's very striking. Now this, this was a funny experience for me today when I was going over all this. She's very striking. Her looks are described as kind of an alien ish beauty that supermodels have. She has a symmetrical face with a mix of classically feminine and masculine features with a prominent jaw and oversized piercing cat like eyes. Can we take a look at Nell?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I can't imagine.

[Karen Kilgarin]

All right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Look at her gazing off.

[Karen Kilgarin]

That literally looks like my grandma in a nightgown who was alien supermodel like her whole life.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love the outfit. I almost wore that.

[Karen Kilgarin]

I mean, that is. She is Christmas tree coated right now, isn't she? So she also has a tendency to literally do whatever she wants at all times. She does not care about societal conventions. One of us, One of us, One of us. For example, she poses for this incredibly controversial photograph. If you are under 18, please cover your eyes and pray to your chosen God. Let's take a look.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Oh my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That is gorgeous.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Slut.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God. That's the. Right. From tonight.

[Karen Kilgarin]

So. Okay, thank you. So in her relationship with her first husband, George Henry Anthony Jr. You know there's a problem when he has three first names.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Absolutely.

[Karen Kilgarin]

It happened every single time. We don't know how the first two, we don't know how they met. Nell's flair for drama and exaggeration makes it very hard to pin down. For example, she claims that she was just a teenager when she met him and that he was in his 50s. But actually in reality, she was in her mid-20s and he was almost 30.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What a weird brag, right?

[Karen Kilgarin]

She's like, well, that old man snapped me right up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I was a child. Just.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Just a child. The thing about it though is he was a married father of two. No. That's a big no. When. When his wife finds out of course she gives him the boot. She files for divorce, which is very scandalous at the time. It's 1883. George and Nell then marry a few months afterwards in St. Louis. And so this story is not someone cheered for St. Louis. This story, yeah, you can. This story is not about George Anthony, Henry Anthony Jr. But it's worth it to digress, to talk about him because he is kind of the worst. He's also, he's a bum husband, he's a bum father. He's also a Nepo baby. He's the son of the seventh senator of. Sorry, the seventh governor of Kansas. And his success in life is fully just brought to him by his rich father who helps him get one prestigious job after another. So when he's in his late 20s, he's given a job at Leavenworth prison, replacing an experienced employee already holding the post. It's so baffling that the local newspaper actually reports, quote, to take away a man of experience and judgment and put in a white headed boy seems like a folly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, don't fuck around in a prison with employees. Right? Like that's the wrong. Go to a bank and fuck around.

[Karen Kilgarin]

It's not very Nepo baby to get, go to live Leavenworth and be like, I'd love to spend a lot of time here. Then in the mid-1880s, he's handed yet another high paying gig which he has no business doing, which is working on the Mexican Central Railroad. He leaves that job then to start a lumber company with his father and go cut down Mexican forests. Just bad after bad. He and Nell move from Mexico to Texas to Kansas City. And the whole time, sure, the whole time. Nell plays the role of a rich housewife. She throws parties and entertains guests and she keeps up appearances. But after four years, she gets bored and she's done. So the marriage is on the rocks and she files for divorce scandal. George goes crawling back to his ex wife after this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Come on. Four years.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Four years. While Nell ditches high society and heads to New York City with all of her cash, jewelry and expensive furs. But as we all know, New York's a very expensive town. So she burns through that cash right quick. And this is before alimony or spousal support. So obviously her role at this time in America would be to find another rich guy to marry. But she's done with that life. She wants to earn a living as a songwriter and actress.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, that sounds pretty sweet.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Honey, honey, honey. So she finds and befriends a very creative group of New York writers and editors and publishers. And they recognize that Nell actually does have something very special about her. She's fiery, she's smart, and she is not easily intimidated by other people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh dear.

[Karen Kilgarin]

So she's offered assignments with their newspapers like the New York Herald and the New York Journal, but it's mostly gossip columnists and society reporting. But it turns out Nell's made for that job. She has this amazing ability to get people talking and telling stories and that gets her the nickname Polly Pry.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What is it? Polly Pry?

[Karen Kilgarin]

Oh, that's like your prying historian.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She just gets them shit based, I bet. Yeah, right. That's the way to do it.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Like two compliments, three shots. Now you're telling me everything about your life.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right.

[Karen Kilgarin]

And you might remember I covered the story of Nellie Bly, who was the female reporter. Her real name was Elizabeth Cochran and she's the one that went into the insane asylum and basically exposed how horrible that New York City insane asylum was. So basically people think that Polly Pry is like a little play on Nellie Bly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Because that was 10 years before. Got it this time. Just trying to put it in a timeline based on all the stories I've done on this podcast and nothing else. So now it's the 1890s and Nell is in her mid-30s, so two. She has a big family. Two of her younger brothers have tuberculosis and so her family moves to Colorado because the heirs are apparently very dry here.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Good job, you guys.

[Karen Kilgarin]

And filled with moths. So after one of these younger brothers dies from the disease, Nell decides she's going to leave New York City and come to Denver to be with her family. So after about a year, she is on a train and she sits across from this man that she doesn't know who is old fashioned style, holding up a newspaper that he's reading.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, he isn't.

[Karen Kilgarin]

It just doesn't happen anymore. Unless you're trying to hide from the cops. So she sees that this newspaper had done their headlines in red and she goes, how awful. And the owner of the newspaper is the guy holding the newspaper. Yes, that's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You just insult people by opening your mouth. It's a fun thing to do. Yeah, I do it all the time.

[Karen Kilgarin]

The story of my life. Yes, I didn't mean it like that. So this man is Frederick Gilmer Balfi and he is the co owner of the Denver Evening Post, which is now the Denver Post and it is Colorado's newspaper of record. So Nell, who of course, Nell's very embarrassed, but she's no stranger to putting her foot in her mouth. And she's very good at charming people. And basically, she recovers. She charms Frederick. He invites her to dinner. They go eat in the dining car. They have this wonderful meal, and essentially it goes so well that by the end, he offers her a job.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hell, yeah.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yeah. And so bad things happen, and then you can get a job after. Just believe. Believe that if you insult men enough, they'll give you a job.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, we love it.

[Karen Kilgarin]

So it works. So at this point in Denver history, the city's population is booming, and there is a serious competition between the local newspapers for readers. So Frederick and his business partner, Harry Tamman, they really want to win the Colorado newspaper wars. Can we take a look at Harry and Frederick? Supermodels, Alien, like in their beauty.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, they look rich.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Doesn't it look like he just pulled that mustache out of his pocket?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was just a bunch of moths landed on his face.

[Karen Kilgarin]

This moth problem is really a problem. Then they all fly away. Oh, it's one big one. Anyway, so fortunately for them, they have a real edge in the newspaper wars because they've just hired good old Nell Campbell. Paulie Pry, who pulls no punches. So the Denver Post is primed for victory. And right off the bat, Nell's first interview makes waves. It's with a political candidate who's running for senator. And Nell does. Makes no bones about how she feels about this man. She writes, quote, if tones could freeze, the marrow in my bones would have congealed then and there. The voice of the would be senator was so icily on, unfriendly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow. How would you say that? What a dick.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Fucking dick. She also describes him as, quote, tall, thin, nervous, and irritable with a harsh voice and cold gray eyes. And she also goes on to warn the public that if he wins a Senate race, political cartoonists will have a field day with him. Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right.

[Karen Kilgarin]

And you're just like this skinny, nervous guy that's like, God damn it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just trying to make a living.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Why did I talk to that goddamn woman? Author Julia Bricklin writes, quote, no, sorry, it's not a quote. Yet that Nell now begins to gravitate toward exposing, quote, those she considered particularly out of touch with progressive politics. Hypocritical. Right? Or entitled or perhaps all of these things. So she's after it. She's doing it. She is holding their feet to the fire. In a time where women. And don't hold me to this, because I'm not sure, but I don't think they could vote yet. Pretty fucking sure that we couldn't. Here come the emails, explaining to me how dumb I am. But Nell is. Is fearless in her reporting. She publishes hit pieces on reverends, on city officials, even Colorado socialites like the famous philanthropist and Titanic survivor, the unsinkable Molly Brown.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She goes after Molly.

[Karen Kilgarin]

She goes fucking after an unkillable socialite.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgarin]

But despite that, she actually calls her in one of her columns, quote, the worst kind of social climber.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Damn.

[Karen Kilgarin]

This was probably before she almost froze to death in the icy waters of the North Sea. Despite this, Nell and Molly eventually become friends. Girl power. Nell's work is pretty polarizing. Many readers wonder who the hell this woman thinks she is and why that she's not making them flaky fresh biscuits instead of writing. But her bluntness and her brashness make her a standout. She's not afraid to ask the hard questions, to show up uninvited or to name names. And because of that, her readers devour her articles. So now we're in 1899. And since Nell's bosses at the Post are always looking for ways to sell more newspapers, they figure what better way to do that than to send their firecracker lady reporter out to check on the Colorado cannibal himself? And Nell says, hell, yes, I'll go talk to that fucking cannibal. Sounds good to me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Shut up. So, like, that all happens, and they're like, hey, you piss everyone off. Why don't you go talk to this murdering cannibal?

[Karen Kilgarin]

Here's another guy that pissed a bunch of people off.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right? Yikes.

[Karen Kilgarin]

All right, so Nell travels 100 miles south of Denver to a prison in Canyon City.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know,

[Karen Kilgarin]

doesn't seem like it's a great place. I don't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, the prison or the.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Okay, so she has to follow the warden around. She, like, shadows him to get the tour. And she finds this prison extremely disturbing. She can't stop thinking about the difficult life circumstances that led each inmate to this awful place and how dark their futures are. And she's disgusted to learn that members of the public can pay 25 cents to come and gawk at the prisoners.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, no.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Did you know that that was a thing they used to do?

[Georgia Hardstark]

What, do they just stand and stare at them?

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yeah, after church. And how much do you think 25 cents was back then?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. And we're in 18.

[Karen Kilgarin]

It's like 1890. I can't find that fucking piece of paper.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So. Well, I guess I'm going to go $12, $10.

[Karen Kilgarin]

That was good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, if you're a drag along. That was amazing. Like, that was so close. I know it doesn't sound close, but it was really close.

[Karen Kilgarin]

I guessed, like, eight different monies from a different time with Georgia last night, and I was never within $100,000.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We also decided we're not doing that anymore.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Oh, that's right. That's right. That was the last one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank God.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Goodbye, dumb thing. Okay, so ironically, kind of, Nell is introduced to Alfred Packer in the prison kitchen.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I hear.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Okay, yeah, Just absorb it for a second.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's weird.

[Karen Kilgarin]

He is now around 58 years old, and Nell, not surprisingly, gets a very bad vibe from him. You think she will describe him in an article? And this is Maren. What Maren wrote, she goes like, he's describing a cartoon devil. It says, quote, dead black hair, glittering eyes, sooty mustache and goatee and sarcastic smile. End quote.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That does. Yeah. There's a tiny moth right now.

[Karen Kilgarin]

For real?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. Like a teeny tiny one. Have you guys noticed it, or am I having seizures now?

[Karen Kilgarin]

Do you think it's the same one from last night? Do you think that one's dead?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I don't know where that one went. Maybe in my petticoat. But there's a teeny tiny one.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Come on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, you're trying to get it to land on your finger.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Come on. We've all seen Snow White. God damn it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That would be so cute.

[Karen Kilgarin]

We would have a whole different show if moth started landing on our fingers. See? You see?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm not going crazy.

[Karen Kilgarin]

What's the rule of the theater? No smoking, no children, no live animals. And yet here we are, contending with this moth all night long. Try to focus, everybody. Okay? The kitchen meeting is quick, and she is very. She wants to spend more time with him. She wants to talk to him more. So she sets up a formal interview for the next day. But it doesn't start out well, because Alfred Packer, of course, is like, you're just here to sensationalize me and to, you know, make his life worse. And.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it's judgy of him. It's judgy of the cannibal.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Especially from his background. You know, it's like, okay, dude, give a little grace. You ate five people. But when Nell gets Packer talking, he starts telling her his version of this infamous story, explaining to his account that they crossed the San Juan Mountains, they got lost, supplies ran out. He claims one man lost his mind and started shooting at the others. And he, he. And so Alfred was forced to shoot the shooter. Okay. And kill him dead. So it was just self defense. Oh, so sorry. He's basically saying the shooter killed the other four men, then Alfred had to kill him. And then he's like. And then I just had to eat

[Georgia Hardstark]

everybody because that it's the age old wasn't me.

[Karen Kilgarin]

He claims cannibalizing the dead men was just another act of survival. So Nell is. This is a convincing story to Nell. She's there with him face to face, and she thinks this is compelling. And whether he was a murderous cannibal or a man caught in an impossible position, she sees this as a great way to start the larger discussion of the difficulties that the accused face in this country, in the US justice system, which. Fuck, yeah, 100 years ago. Not even close. She focuses on whether or not Packer was actually fairly tried. Not so much about the cannibalism. She's able to brush cannibalism aside for just a little while. And the more she investigates, the more she's convinced that he was not. There was no hard evidence or eyewitnesses presented at his trial that definitely proved that his story was false. And there was a ton of hysteria and of course, a ton of sensational reporting that Nell believes led to his conviction. So she becomes hell bent on getting Alfred Packard justice. She convinces her boss, Frederick Balfil, with the moth mustache to let her write sympathetic coverage of him in the Post because she wants her readers to envision a scenario where they might somehow wind up in an impossible situation, convicted of a crime based solely on circumstantial evidence, with no way to advocate for yourself. Minus the cannibalism. Minus the cannibalism. So now it's a big job for Nell as Polly Pry. Everyone in America knows Alfred Packer as the guy who ate five other guys. So what? This is one of the. The Post's most incendiary reporters. Basically vigorously defending Alfred Packer. There's backlash. But when an opportunist lawyer named William Anderson gets involved, it like, ratchets things up a notch. So this part of the story is a little fuzzy, but essentially this guy, William Anderson tries to swindle money from both the owners of the Post and from Alford Packer, saying that, like, he'll represent both of them and he takes retainer money from both. And then when the guys from the Post find out he did it to reporters, it's like they'll find out. They're really good at finding stuff out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's Kind of their thing.

[Karen Kilgarin]

So they confront Anderson at the newspaper office. So we don't know which one if it was Frederick or Harry. But one of them directly accuses Anderson of having no ethics. He threatens to get him disbarred unless he returns that money. And then Frederick thinks he sees Anderson reaching for a weapon. So he lunges at him and holds him down. Paulie goes over it and tries to beg them to stop fighting. As it turns out, Anderson does have a gun on him. And so he wrestles himself free. He grabs that gun, he fires it twice. He hits both Frederick and Harry. And then when he steps forward to finish Harry off with a third shot, Nell steps in front of the gun and shields her boss. So Harry Tannen will later say about this quote, Just as Anderson was about to fire the third shot, Polly Pry rushed between us. Had it not been for her, doubtless I would have been killed. She placed herself in front of his pistol and moved with it as he tried to reach me. Badass.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Would you do that for your boss?

[Karen Kilgarin]

No fucking way. Well, I think there's that thing with, like, guns. Maybe it's because it was like wild Westy era where it's like they were probably super used to guns, where people are always like, at church, where it, like, falls out of your pocket.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sorry.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yeah, but stepping in front of a gun.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yeah, it's big. The good news is both of the owners of the Post survive. Anderson is taken into custody for attempted murder, and Nell becomes an outright legend. Stories start to circulate that she's the one that wrestled the gun out of Anderson's hand and that her big skirts caught the bullets that would have killed her bosses.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She wrote that herself?

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yes, she did.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I bet she fucking made it up.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Good for her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She deserves it. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Was. Were there typewriters back then? In the end, Nel's reporting on Alfred Packer creates enough discourse that popular opinion about his crimes and conviction actually does change. People seem to agree that it is impossible to tell whether his story of self defense and survival are true or if he maliciously killed those five men. And that's what we call reasonable doubt in this country. Heard of that, right? So Alfred Packer winds up being paroled, not pardoned, and in early. Oh, he's paroled in early January of 1901. So she, Nell, delivers his release papers herself to him. Packer spends the next six years as a free man. He dies of a stroke in 1907 at the age of. Of 65, a devout vegetarian. Just kidding.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, that Was not very tasteful.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Oh, she loves a pun. She loves a pun.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank God I didn't do the five guys joke. I was. Oh my God. Wait, do it. No, that was it. You guys were all thinking it. The original five guys,

[Karen Kilgarin]

their bodies were laid out on the riverbed. And a shit ton of french fries over here. Like why so many french fries? That's french fries for four. Okay. So her experience in interviewing Alfred Packer gets Nell really fired up about the injustices of the American prison system. So she starts reporting on it extensively. She works to get other incarcerated people released from prison. She also investigates the abuse and neglect inside the state run asylums here.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yeah. And just like Nellie Bly, she also investigates the treatment of patients in military hospitals. And she even starts writing about the very at the time secretive practice of polygamy within the Mormon church. Damn girl, she doesn't give a shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I like her.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yeah, I do too. You'll like her more when you hear this. In 1903 she gets a tip about the horrific conditions at the Fort Lewis Indian school in Durango. So if you don't know about Indian schools, Horrifying. I think people are hearing about them more and more now. But this was one of the many U. S run boarding schools that were built to assimilate native children to European American culture. They were horribly abusive and at the time most white Americans did not know or they did not care about those abuses against Native American children. But Nell cared very much. So she starts doing some digging and she books a 10 day trip to Durango and just starts interviewing anyone that will talk to her about these schools. She hears one horrible story after another about children being denied medical care, being forced to perform brutal labor and being sexually abused by the school superintendent, Dr. Thomas Breen. Uh huh. Who he was also sexually assaulting teachers. Like it was fucking horrifying mayhem. There was some bad stuff back then and now Nell's reporting on this school will later be described as some of her most heartfelt, detailed and deeply researched reporting of her career. And like her Alfred Packer reporting, it actually creates change in a small way. And that is that she gets Dr. Breen fired from his post. Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We like that.

[Karen Kilgarin]

The power of journalism.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Back in D.C. the Bureau of Indian affairs is not happy with her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Of course not.

[Karen Kilgarin]

The commissioner puts out a statement minimizing her reporting as, quote, sensational newspaper attacks. Okay, okay. Except for they were so specific though. Yeah, so specific. So the thing about Nellie is, or Nell, Sorry, is that around the same time she's also writing scathing attacks on Colorado labor unions. She goes so far as to accuse the leaders of exploiting the working class and intentionally creating chaos. So this is not unusual for a reporter of her time. And there may have been corruption taken in place. We all know it's everywhere. But her writing on this issue veers into the highly problematic, as many things were back then and unfortunately not uncommon. She talks about things like class and immigration. Immigration. Writing derogatory columns about the Irish immigrants moving to Colorado to work in the mines. It's always just the different new people that they want to attack. Goddamn. So on one hand, she tackles these amazing progressive issues like prison conditions and the Native American boarding schools. And she also does some articles about the treatment of black soldiers in the U.S. army. She does a ton of stuff about women's suffrage. But then she digs her heels in on this labor issue and she's. It's not good. She's blinded by her biases. She doesn't seem to realize how contradictory her stances are. And she doesn't care how much anger she's basically creating, because that's kind of what she's like. Then, in the early 1900s, she hears a knock at her door. And when she opens it, a man is standing there. He fires twice. He's holding a gun. He fires twice. But now fucking starts to slam the door nice and early, so the bullets get stuck in her nice big wooden door.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Shit.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Wow. Yeah. And the man runs away. He's never caught. Nell assumes this man is somehow from the labor unions and he's been sent to assassinate her. The labor unions themselves suggest that maybe Nell staged the attack to drum up publicity and sympathy, which is something that she had done, and of course, to sell papers. It's also possible that this man hated Nell for any of the other incendiary reporting that she had done over the last decade or for the fact that she was just a woman. There are so many reasons to hate her. But either way, when she gets into this part of her career, her stance on unions, and then the controversial reporting that the government gets mad about the Indian school atrocities, the Denver Post fires her. So here's the good news. It doesn't stop her, because at heart, she really is this investigative reporter. So at 44 years old, and this is like in the early 1900s, she basically starts a sub stack and she names it Polly Pry. It's a publication, the only female led publication of the time. And it's great. It's split into four sections. The first one is Gossip, of course, first and foremost. Second is Denver and Colorado politics. The third. Oh, sorry. The gossip section is called Tell the Truth and Shame the Devil, which is hilarious.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's a good one.

[Karen Kilgarin]

That's like saying Jesus wants you to gossip. Like, shut up, Nell. You are crazy, girl. Another section on local theater, and of course, the last on automobiles.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sure, it's like Bridgerton, essentially.

[Karen Kilgarin]

There's something for everyone. By September of 1903, Nell has 3,500

[Georgia Hardstark]

subscribers to this, which in today's people. That's a fucking lot of people, right?

[Karen Kilgarin]

To so many people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, like back in the.

[Karen Kilgarin]

For a woman writer. But then not long after she creates it, she gets bored and sells it, because that's our girl.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Good for you.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgarin]

And then she goes. She moves back to New York City. And we don't know the kind of chronology of this, but there she very quietly marries a man named Harry o'. Brien. And she's keeping it quiet because once again, Married With Children Girl, your favorite TV show. She basically does it all in secret because she's deathly afraid that some other gossip columnist is gonna come and report on the gossip columnist and her gossip.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Look who's calling the kettle out.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yeah, that's our new T shirt. Get ready, everybody. God, I'm almost done. I swear to God. This marriage is short lived, okay? Nell divorces Harry a few years later because she learns that he had another wife in a different state. Man, you gotta love them. Now in her 60s, Nell heads back out west. And in 1908. Oh, in 1908. Who wrote this? Because she really misses Colorado. A few years later, she takes a job at the Denver Times and she starts reporting on the Mexican Revolution. She goes to Mexico and spends six weeks trying to get an interview with the revolutionary Pancho Villa.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Holy shit.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yes. And remember she used to live in Mexico with her first three named husband. And so she speaks the language, she works her magic. And she does get a meeting with Pancho Villa.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgarin]

And in that interview, she does the same shit she always does.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's call him. Okay?

[Karen Kilgarin]

She pulls no punches. And she claims later that at one point she gets him so mad he turns red. But then she turns the charm on, she wins him back. And basically he invites her to interview him again sometime. All right, so it all works out. That's according to her. Others say she ate five men. I'm so tired of reading this. The first of Nell's articles from Mexico is published in April of 1914. They're some of the most popular pieces the Denver Time has ever produced. It reinvigorates her reporting career, and she starts covering everything from Colorado theater to the battles of World War I range. She's also working hard to develop a local theater scene in Denver. She. She produces plays and musicals to varying degrees of success. Die to watch one of those on this very stage. She's also an active member, of course, of the Denver Women's Press Club. And she. We got some members in the house tonight. You are fucking lying. The Denver Women's Lying Club is more like it. Nell continues her very vocal advocacy for women's suffrage and, of course, the fight to get women in more newsrooms.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Laugh Page.

[Karen Kilgarin]

It's not until she's in her late 70s that Nell starts to dial back her workload a bit. Oh, can we take a look at that last picture of Nell in her later life? Oh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What the. What happened? Why is she so crosshatched?

[Karen Kilgarin]

I think it's. I think it's satisfied Harper's Bazaar illustrator that was so fucked up from finding those five bodies on the riverbank that he was just like, I guess that's what she looks like out of her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, that's kind of insulting. That's what Botox is for.

[Karen Kilgarin]

I mean, for real Daxify. It's not until she's in her late 70s that Nell starts to dial back her workload. But then, on July 15, 1938, when she is 79 years old, she suffers a heart attack and dies the next day. The Denver Post writes about her final moments, saying, quote, a moment before passing, with characteristic energy, she raises herself from the bed and said to the attending nurse, I must be up. And. And then she dies.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Shut the fuck up.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Those are her last words.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mid fucking sentence. That sucks.

[Karen Kilgarin]

I must be up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What does that mean?

[Karen Kilgarin]

In 2011, Nell was inducted to the Denver Press Club hall of Fame. And biographer Julia Bricklin says that the honor was something, quote, she might or might not have coveted, depending on how she felt about whomever was president of the organization at the time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sounds right.

[Karen Kilgarin]

What would matter to her the most is that she paved the way for women journalists who came after her to sit proudly in their newsrooms. Right. Or at the helm. Or at the helm of their own business, knowing that they had just as much to contribute to the field as any male colleague. And that's the story of trailblazing Denver journalist Nell Campbell.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Good job.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Good job.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Amazing. Yeah, that's really something to be proud of, Denver. That's very cool. In the new HBO Original Series, DTF St. Louis Everyone looks normal from across

[Georgia Hardstark]

the street, but who wouldn't kill to spice things up?

[Karen Kilgarin]

Jason Bateman, David Harbour and Linda Cardellini star as three suburbanites experiencing midlife malaise.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When two of them attempt to spice up their love lives on a dating app called DTF St. Louis, an unexpected love triangle ends with one of them dead.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Don't miss the new HBO Original Series, DTF St. Louis, premiering March 1 on HBO Max. Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We can't time travel back to stop ourselves from every bad purchase, but we can start making better financial decisions for our future right now. Plan ahead with Acorns Acorns is a smart way to give your money a chance to grow. You can sign up in minutes and start automatically investing, even if it's your spare change. Whether you're just starting out or thinking about settling down, Acorns supports your big and small goals across every life stage. Sign up now and Acorns will boost your new account with a $5 bonus. Investment join the over 14 million all time customers who have already saved and invested over $27 billion with Acorns. Head to acorns.com mfm or download the Acorns app to get started. Paid non client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns tier 2 compensation provided potential subject to various factors such as customers accounts, age and investment settings. Does not include Acorns fees. Results do not predict or represent the performance of any Acorns portfolio. Investment results will vary. Investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC Registered Investment Advisor. View important [e-mail] MFM Goodbye. As the year gets going, everyone starts settling back into routines and at the

[Karen Kilgarin]

end of a long day you can still unwind without unraveling. Thanks to rk. Non Alcoholic Beverages When I'm off alcohol

[Georgia Hardstark]

and someone passes me a soda water at a party, I am not not excited about it. I want to still feel like I'm treating myself, like I'm getting some kind of flavor profile that's not just bubbly. And I love that RK actually knows that we care about that.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Ready to join the Zero Proof Revolution?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Shop now at rk0proof.com and make every moment count.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know what else is something to be proud of?

[Karen Kilgarin]

What?

[Georgia Hardstark]

The Stanley Hotel. Yes. I'm gonna tell you about the ghosts and the hauntings of the Stanley Hotel.

[Karen Kilgarin]

There are people going loose with their arms that they're at a revival like the Stanley Hotel.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I want to see a picture of it. Let's look at a picture of the Stanley Hotel. Hi. Have you guys stayed there? She has glasses on, sunglasses. We should.

[Karen Kilgarin]

We should look up their Yelp reviews right now and just see it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's like rugs were.

[Karen Kilgarin]

No, it's nice, but the ghost touch my toe.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, so tell me if this story makes you believe in ghosts more.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or not. So I'm going to tell you. So the year is. Here's where we're going to start. The year is 1974, and we're in Estes Park. Why not just one of you? Estes. Estes Park. Thank you.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Did you do it or not?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Estes Park.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Okay. Great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you. You guys don't sound sure.

[Karen Kilgarin]

We should have.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's not say it again.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Let's stop talking about it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's about an hour and a half northwest of here and a popular gateway to the Rocky Mountain National Park. You guys. Okay. And so here we are in a married couple. They're both authors based in Boulder. They are desperate this day to get away from their little kids for just one freaking night. You guys all know. So they find a sitter and they check into a hotel. It's the fall, and the hotel's about to shut down for the winter. And it turns out this couple were the only two guests in the whole place.

[Karen Kilgarin]

I know this story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Of course you do. As some of you may have already figured out. Thank you, Allie, for writing that. Like Karen. The authors are Stephen King and his wife, Tabitha King.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And tonight's story is about the historic Stanley Hotel, one of the most high haunted places in America, and the inspiration for the Overlook Hotel in the novel the Shining.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Amy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hell, yeah.

[Karen Kilgarin]

You get to do a story that involves Stephen King.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know.

[Karen Kilgarin]

That's the best.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Congratulations.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I have a funny. I have an anecdote about their marriage that makes me fucking love them. The main source is used for the story is a book called the History and Haunting of the Stanley Hotel by Rebecca F. Pittman. And the rest of our sources can be found in our show notes. So Stephen and Tabitha King check into room 217 at the Stanley Hotel in the fall of 1974. As I said, they're the only guests in the whole place. And that night they eat at the hotel's restaurant. And Stephen King says later, quote, except for our table, all the chairs were up on the tables. So the music is echoing down the hall. And I mean, it was like God had put me there to hear that and see those things.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Men.

[Georgia Hardstark]

End quote.

[Karen Kilgarin]

It's all for me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If I walked into a restaurant and all the chairs were on the table. I'd be like, they don't want us here.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yeah, bye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, go away.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Like, just give the closing crew their last 15 minutes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Seriously, they don't want to make your fucking penny.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, wait, let's see.

[Karen Kilgarin]

You know what's weird? I did not know that he wrote that based on his own experience. I've never heard that before.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, you're going to hear it now.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And as the night wears on, he can't shake that unsettling feeling. He says, quote, wandering through the its corridors. I thought that it seemed the perfect, maybe the architect, archetypal setting for a ghost story. That night I dreamed of my three year old son running down the corridors, looking back over his shoulder, eyes wide, screaming, that's fucking creepy. I woke up with a tremendous jerk, sweating all over, within an inch of falling out of bed. I got up, lit a cigarette.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sat in the chair looking out the window at the Rockies. And by the time the cigarette was done, I had the bones of the book firmly set in my mind. That guy, that sounds great to write a book. And here's a photo of them.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I would wear her dress so hard.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Oh my God, look at that. She's like, can we please leave this gala?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Steven, you've got Steven.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Steven.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Steven. He's not here, but he did tell me. I'm sure he texts you too.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Break a leg tonight, Steven. He's here. He's not here physically, but he's here in spirit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, as a moth. As a tiny.

[Karen Kilgarin]

He's. He's the moth. That moth has a big mustache.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The moth has a moth. Here's an anecdote about their relationship. When Stephen King was writing the novel 1122 63, for some fucking reason, a big part of his process was literally listening to the extended. Listen to this and imagine being married to this person. The extended dance mix of Lou Vega's 1999 hit Mambo number five.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yes. A little bit of Monica in my Life.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Extended dance version over and over again. He listened to the song so much that this fucking badass threatened to divorce him if you played it one more time.

[Karen Kilgarin]

That's a tough one to have on repeat. I don't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, it's the absolute that's very

[Karen Kilgarin]

positive and upbeat, but you just don't want to hear. You don't want to hear it that

[Georgia Hardstark]

much now you have to read that book, listening and hear it the whole time.

[Karen Kilgarin]

And now I'm going to be thinking about it for the rest of your story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She said, one more time and I'm going to fucking leave you. Which, holy shit. We love her. Okay, so if Stephen King knew about the Stanley Hotel's very long history of strange occurrences, some which happened in the very room he slept in before his stay. He doesn't ever mention it, so we don't know. But you gotta imagine like Stephen King goes into an old hotel and is like, I bet this is haunted. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgarin]

He's like, I'll go ahead and take room three seven two. Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Close. And today's night. Got it. So let's get into this hotel and the long and spooky history leading up to Stephen King's fitful, fateful night. The Stanley hotel opens on July 4th. Your favorite.

[Karen Kilgarin]

I love America.

[Georgia Hardstark]

1909. It's this, you know, big grand hotel built in the colonial revival style, just like my house. Your house with a white exterior. It's just. It's the Majestic is the word that they would use.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Was it festooned?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's festooned. I'm sure there were bells. I don't know. Let's see. And so it had been built by a man named Freeland, Oscar. Stanley. Uh, oh, three first names.

[Karen Kilgarin]

What's that first name?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Freeland, I guess.

[Karen Kilgarin]

You Freelan. No, it doesn't qualify.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. He made his fortune manufacturing steam powered cars which were known as Stanley Steamers. Oh. But it's not the same thing.

[Karen Kilgarin]

That can't be.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know. There's two different fucking Stanley Steamers. One of them is a carpet cleaning company and one. You know what I mean? Like, that's weird, right?

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's like, do.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Do you think that the carpet cleaning company was like, here's a great reference from the past that we'll make.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And they're also like, it kind of works with us better. So fuck you. A little, I don't know, steam powered car.

[Karen Kilgarin]

So you had to fill it with water and then drive it around cars.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I guess so.

[Karen Kilgarin]

And then it would burn your face if you got too close to certain parts of it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Freeland's wife Flora had overseen the design of the interior. It's just beautiful. Burgundies and golds. Wood paneled. You know, you've seen the fucking shining. You know what it looks like?

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yeah, yeah. Looks exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Even though the Shining wasn't filmed and you know, it says, Ally wrote, picture the interiors of the Titanic, but on

[Karen Kilgarin]

land it and right side up, not

[Georgia Hardstark]

at the bottom of the.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Every picture I see is upside down with moss. Sick of it. Clean it up. I'm going to start an online campaign to clean the Titanic before it's raised. I don't want it raised. I just want someone to go wipe that moss off.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like. Brought to you by Stanley.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Stanley Stern. Yes. We've got a new sponsor for this tour,

[Georgia Hardstark]

funnily enough. Stephen and Tabitha the King. The Stanleys had also been from Maine, though they'd lived a long time outside of Boston. They moved to Colorado in 1903 after Freeland comes down with tuberculosis. It's the place to be.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yes. When you have tuberculosis, it's the place to be. If you have tv.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Good job. Hey, that's a great jingle. Freeland makes a recovery. He's so excited about it that he builds his luxury hotel for his equally rich and sick friends to come and heal and hang out. Which sounds great. So there is a tunnel carved into the hotel's foundation, which is carved into bedrock, which at some point was intended for hotel employees, because, of course it was.

[Karen Kilgarin]

And you guys go down there, no one wants to look at you have

[Georgia Hardstark]

a job to pretend there's nobody working here. And hotel workers now say that when they are in the basement and they pass the tunnel, they sometimes hear now people saying they're whispering their names. Fuck, no, no. Don't whisper my name. It's so creepy.

[Karen Kilgarin]

I like it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The hotel has140.40 guest rooms, in case you're planning a wedding there. And then, of course, there are lots of other spaces and several other buildings on the grounds. Hotel staff will tell you that every last room in the hotel is haunted, which is, like, great. Yeah, so they put that on Travelocity. I don't know.

[Karen Kilgarin]

I mean, you. But then you could have, like, a haunted wedding if you wanted to. Everybody that's into it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That sounds cool. Hotel staff will tell. I don't know.

[Karen Kilgarin]

That sounded not sincere.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hotel staff will tell you about strange occurrences that have been reported on every last square of the place, which. Let's fucking go. People have reported rocking chairs rocking with no one in them.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Just get rid of the fucking rocking chair. Right. Just four on the floor.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What if both chairs start rocking, though? Like, I'd rather have a rocking chair rock than. People also reported weird lights where there shouldn't be shadows, sudden chills and shocks, sudden headaches, which to me sounds like a gas leak. They should get that checked out. Unexplained music, right?

[Karen Kilgarin]

Stanley Steamer. Like, what was that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. Unexplained scents, which sounds awful.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Explain that scent. That's my new game show.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And in 1970, before Stephen King stayed there, one maid reported going to a ballroom that should have been empty to clean it and saw it full of ghostly figures in ball gowns and tuxedos dancing.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sounds like the haunted mansion.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Room 418 is said to be the hotel's most haunted room. And guests who have stayed there often report rattling windows. And that which is like, Like. Yeah, it's wind.

[Karen Kilgarin]

I mean, that's happening in my hotel room right now. I literally was like, is someone behind that curtain? Just like. No, just the wind.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wind. However, it also. They also report the sound of unexplained children running through the hallway outside. Ooh, children or ghost children. So scary.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Any child.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And the sound. And the sound of a bouncing ball, you know? You know what a bucket. Why did I.

[Karen Kilgarin]

You mean the sound doin.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I just hear, like a handball.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yeah, the big red one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, exactly. So I'm not gonna go into all the stories, obviously, but let's start with room 217. So here's a photo of it in 1911.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Oh, rattan everywhere.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Isn't it cool? What do you think it smells like?

[Karen Kilgarin]

Explain that smell.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cigarettes and mothballs. Like my dress.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Now, is that twin beds or one like queen with two separate headboards?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think it's two twins pushed together. And, like, don't touch each other, though.

[Karen Kilgarin]

That's the cause of all this haunting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Some prude is like, how dare you? Also, they haven't figured out yet that the key to a happy marriage is a king size bed, for fuck's sake.

[Karen Kilgarin]

I thought the key to a happy marriage was multiple headboards.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, so. So it's the most famous. It had once been part of a larger presidential suite. And many famous people have stayed there before and after the Kings, including Theodore Roosevelt, your best friend, the unsinkable Molly Brown.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yeah, she's in every story. She's truly in every story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. So about 60 years before the Kings stayed there. In June of 1911, a big storm. Remember those rattling windows knocked out the electricity at the Stanley. And the hotel at this point had only been open for two years, but everything ran on electricity, which was like really highfalutin back then.

[Karen Kilgarin]

However, what's the look of highfalutin?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's the jazz age.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Turn the light on. See,

[Georgia Hardstark]

flip a switch. But also, the lamps were designed to work with electricity or gas for when storms came. So during a storm, a chambermaid in her 50s named Elizabeth Wilson enters room 217 to light the gas lamp because the electricity went out unfortunately, for some reason, the gas had been on for a while. So she goes to fucking light a match. You guys know what happens next?

[Karen Kilgarin]

Fireball.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Huge explosion. Taking off a chunk of the building's facade and blowing Elizabeth backwards and down through a hole that's been blasted in the floor of that fucking room. She fucking survives. No,

[Karen Kilgarin]

Liz. Badass.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which is like, if it's gonna be a ghost story, that's not how it usually goes, but okay, She's.

[Karen Kilgarin]

She's haunted by that experience. She's like, I can't fucking believe it happened to me, kind of.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She breaks both ankles, poor thing. But she survives. And in fact, there are a few other injuries, but nobody dies in the accident. And Freeland Stanley, the hotel's owner, feels so bad for it. And of course, there's no, like, workers comp at the time, so he pays for all her medical bills, which is like, at the time required. Yeah. No. And has her recover in one of the guest rooms until she's fully healed. And she ends up having a long career at the Stanley Hotel and lives into her 90s, passing away in 1951. So now she can finally haunt that room.

[Karen Kilgarin]

And interesting fun fact, she is the old lady in the bathtub from the movie the Shining.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My God,

[Karen Kilgarin]

that was my worst part of that movie.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That was good. Now she good naturedly honored the room because she only broke two ankles. So she's not mad, I guess. Here's what she does. She. If guests are messy and have left their clothes lying around and they come back to the room, they find all their clothes flung around in different places. She's, like, pissed and makes it worse. Which sounds like you got shit faced last night and don't remember doing that. I do that.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Who threw my bra over there?

[Georgia Hardstark]

My undergarments? And then they say, sheets move around while they're in bed, as if she's making the bed with them in it. Mom. Your mom made your bed get up.

[Karen Kilgarin]

You know, that's how they get you up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, right. Just ripped the covers off you. Oh, my God. Okay. People also say that when you try to take a picture of the room with a digital camera, an unexplained purple bar appears in the viewfinder, which is really creepy. And it happens near the love seat in the room.

[Karen Kilgarin]

It's not as creepy as having a digital camera, though. So let's be honest. Get with it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's vintage Karen. Guests who are like, Neat and tidy report they returned to their room and found their clothes unpacked from their suitcases and Put away.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, but like, that sounds like a turndown service. But no, they don't have that at this hotel. So.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Now, I didn't know that you were supposed to use the drawers in hotel rooms. Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's never open. Do they even open?

[Karen Kilgarin]

I mean, they do. And the only reason I know is because Adrienne Col Singham uses them. She unpacks and like, moves in. I'm like, we're here for 48 hours.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, that is like. That is a thing to know. Like, who are the people who live out of their suitcase and who are the people who like, move in and unpack?

[Karen Kilgarin]

It's two different types of people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow. And those two people meet and get married and hate each other. I don't know. Where was I unpacking? Okay. Okay. So there's rumors that this actually happened, you know, cleaning up the room to Steve, Stephen and Tabitha King. But they've never talked about it anywhere. People say that in the bathroom the faucets turn on and off by themselves. And you'll remember that in the bathroom. The bathroom in the Shining is a big deal. And the Kubrick. But the Kubrick movie. What happened? I don't know. There's just a lot.

[Karen Kilgarin]

No, I like it. Keep going.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So they think it's all Elizabeth, like turning on and off the fucking shower and the thing. And she's like, ooh, running water maybe. I don't know.

[Karen Kilgarin]

She sounds. It sounds to me like Elizabeth has ocd. And she's just like, can we just clean this up, please? Can we just clean this room up?

[Georgia Hardstark]

My ankles. Fuck. So then the staircase and the landing at the landings are of course haunted because. Because those things get haunted a lot. Several people report the sightings of a ghost of a 14 year old girl named Sarah who apparently worked there as a nanny at some point in history. Author of the book the History and Haunting of the Stanley Hotel, Rebecca Pittman has written books about different haunted places and she's even had her own hauntings occurred there. She says that when she was looking over the stairs railing, she felt the distinct sensation of something very cold pressing into her forearm, like someone was holding an ice cube there. Which is actually a trick when you have anxiety is to hold an ice cube. So maybe the ghost had anxiety.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Ghost therapist, yeah. Oh, my God, that was so nice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Starring Jennifer Love Hewitt. Coming this fall. I love it. I'd watch that slow motion, holding a

[Karen Kilgarin]

piece of ice on someone's arm.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And also, Rebecca says she was taken on two guided ghost tours of the hotel by a woman who goes by the name Scary Mary. I bet she's fucking fun.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And claims she personally witnessed the appearance of two ghost children while on this tour. On two occasions, the children pressed their hands into Scary Mary's skirt, leaving little tiny child hand imprints. No. Get the fuck out and you can

[Karen Kilgarin]

buy that skirt in the gift shop.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mary Barry like did checked it and made sure there was no. I don't know. Oh, that sounds fun. And other people report seeing a Victorian era clothed woman on the stairs and then feeling light headed while walking up or down the stairs. Which again, gas leak sounds like. Yeah. Oh, here's a picture of a ghost at the Stanley Hotel. Oh, on the stairs.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yes, I see it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's fucking scary. I mean, I don't love that. And that's our rug from tonight. I mean I see what they see, but I don't.

[Karen Kilgarin]

And I want to believe I do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's fucking scary.

[Karen Kilgarin]

It kind of looks like, you know, they have those like those statues you can get at like home goods where it's a dog butler. It could be. I'm just saying it could be a dog butler.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Does anyone know whether or not they decorated from home goods there is all we're saying. It's like you. You have to ask the hard questions.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. And like the pianos will play and then Rose, Flora's favorite perfume. The. The wife of the guy who built it. They can smell it in the air.

[Karen Kilgarin]

That's an explained smell.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Unexplained smells. Thank God it's Rose at least and

[Karen Kilgarin]

not they know the source of that one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Most people believe that Flora Stanley is also haunting the hotel and plays on the piano a lot of times. And during the 1970s prior to the King's stay, the hotel had actually been looted several times because it had been abandoned. People drove up with moving trucks and just fucking took things stuff into the fucking. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Jesus Christ. So they just. They abandoned it. One owner just was like, bye, I can't handle this place anymore.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. But the owner at the time had actually gone through the effort of hiding the grand piano that was Flores to protect it. And so they think she plays it as an appreciation for.

[Karen Kilgarin]

It's a great way to say thank you having a ghost play the piano for you all night.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nothing says thank you and haunting the fucking shit out of a.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Thanks for making me scream again. Flora. Don't make the blood come out of the elevator, please.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When the novel the Shining comes out in 1977 and when the film out adaptation comes out in 1980, the Stanley enjoys a renaissance, having been obviously made extremely famous. And it turns out Stephen King wasn't a huge fan of Stanley Kubrick's adaptation of his book. So in 1997, he wrote his own script for a miniseries that was much more faithful to the novel. And that series was shot in the actual hotel because it was like, hey, you have a set. It's here. Let's do it.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Did people like that series?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I didn't. Did anyone see it? I don't know. There's a couple.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yay. I thought it was okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And while shooting the crew of the crew of the movie in the Stanley Hotel, they stained the carpet in the lobby. And witnesses claim that a portrait of Flora Stanley flew off the wall and landed right on the stain, as if she was admonishing the crew. Like, people make up reasons why the things happen.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, maybe she was just like, I want to lay on this. Like, it doesn't mean, like, you know what I mean?

[Karen Kilgarin]

I'm tired of being on the wall. What's going on down here?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, guess what else was shot at the Stanley Hotel.

[Karen Kilgarin]

What?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Guess.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Oh. $200,000. No, that was me guessing money.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh. I'll tell you, I shouldn't put you on the spot like that.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Was it the World According to Garp?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. But a good guess. It was Dumb and Dumber. Oh.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Aw.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yep. To this day, fans of the Shining in all its forms, as well as amateur and professional ghost hunters like yourself, flock to the hotel to try to witness something paranormal. Which lets afterparty guys at the Stanley Hotel, and a lot of people do still, I guess, put on travelocity that they see hauntings. Yes. And also the. The hotel throws an annual ball where. Where many people dress up as characters from the Shining.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Ooh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which happened at one of our live shows once. They dressed up as the twins.

[Karen Kilgarin]

That's right. We had twins at a live show.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. And that's the story of the haunting of the Stanley Hotel.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Amazing that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Does that mean it's hometown time?

[Karen Kilgarin]

It's hometown time. Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right.

[Karen Kilgarin]

This time, we're gonna tell the rules. First, unlike we did last night, we basically set up Katie and Cassandra to sail. Oh, there's. Man, it's just me. For the third time,

[Georgia Hardstark]

I come with news that baby Moth was not the only baby in the audience tonight.

[Karen Kilgarin]

What?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I saw a baby buying merch. What?

[Karen Kilgarin]

Either that or the adult the baby was with.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But one of them was buying a T shirt. Oh, my God. He brought a true crime podcast. That's right.

[Karen Kilgarin]

A little baby with a credit card.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, I'm gonna be right over there. Okay. Vince is gonna be there. Yeah. Thank you. And they have presents, too. Okay.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Okay, so we're gonna do the rules really quick. We are now asking if anybody here has a hometown. We recommend that you have a hometown from Denver or Colorado. We do not recommend that you do what Katie did and get slayed by the audience. It's really unpleasant for you. Also, try to make it short. Don't bring notes. Do your thing. We believe in you. What's the last one?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't be drunk.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Oh, don't. You can't be so drunk that you can't tell your own story, but you can be drunk.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And we have a present for you. Vince and I went to a pizza place last night, and they had one of those cool vending machines for adults. The clothing and. Yeah. And this one is called Nostalgia Kids Meal Toy. So I don't know what's in it. And then there's some cookies from the. Okay.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right. Who has a.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Who's got a hometown?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hometown. Okay, you with the light on, you get up here. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Smart. That was a good idea.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, yeah. If you're. Yep. If your friend is bold enough. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That way. To Vince, right over there.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Oh, we forgot. One of the other rules was don't point at strangers. We've had that happen a bunch of times where people are like, ask her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sure. So the chick who lit her, if this is bad, this is on you. No, I'm kidding. You're fine.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Anything can happen at this show. Isn't that the magic of it? It's too late. She picked someone already. It's so sad. So maybe people just keep going, like. But maybe if I do. If I wave five more times. I'm sorry.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I hate doing that. It feels awful. If I could pick all of you, I would. Okay, here she comes. This is. I'm not going to listen to screaming.

[Karen Kilgarin]

We've got one other person that thinks they got paw in case there was time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, okay, great. Hi. What's your name?

[Karen Kilgarin]

Christina. Christina, come here. Come here.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's a hot dog. Shirt on.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Come over.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love it.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Everybody, this is Christina. Be nice to her, please.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Where are you from, Christina? I'm from Colorado Springs. Great, Great. We're off to a good start. What is your hometown?

[Karen Kilgarin]

All right, so to start off, I'm a homicide Prosecutor at the DA's office.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgarin]

You did that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You did that. Yeah, Fuck that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Amazing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You were right. Good.

[Karen Kilgarin]

She lit it up. Christina, can I ask you a question?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Are you a fucking liar right now?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Okay, great, great. I just wanted to ask.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. Okay, so the story I want to

[Karen Kilgarin]

tell is my first homicide trial. Fuck. Yes. Sit down. So the story is a woman named Elizabeth Kramer, Lizzie Kramer, was found murdered. She was in a plastic tote box and she had been thrown off the side of Gold Camp Road. If anyone's from Colorado Springs, she was laughing at the local reference and not the murder. Yes. Because there are a lot of bodies that are found off Gold Camp Road.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, what?

[Karen Kilgarin]

Really?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgarin]

And so Gold Camp Road. I'm covering that on the next show.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And so she was actually found by

[Karen Kilgarin]

three teenagers who were hiking and it was all caught on a Snapchat video. Oh, no. So she was found and the suspect was obviously baby daddy, but close enough. And so then during the investigation, we did computer searches, and he had been really smart and googled how to get away with murder. Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, who among us?

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yeah. And so he was taken to trial in 2021 and convicted of first degree murder. And that was. That's what you did, right? Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Thank you. One of my witnesses was one of the DNA and serology experts, and her name was Sherry Holes. Oh, we know her. And during a break, I was like, oh. She was talking about how she was from California. I was like, do you know Paul Holes? And she goes, that's my husband and I.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So that.

[Karen Kilgarin]

That's what I did in the middle of court. And it was a little embarrassing because then she. She told her husband. And then I met Paul later, and he was the one. Oh, you're the one that embarrassed yourself in front of my wife.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So.

[Karen Kilgarin]

And anyway, he is in prison for the rest of his life and the

[Georgia Hardstark]

court of appeals affirmed that conviction.

[Karen Kilgarin]

So. Amazing. Amazing. That was a perfect hometown in every way. Oh, there's Cookies.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Christina, everybody. Amazing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What's his name?

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yeah, we're not beating him. Amazing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow. You guys.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think Denver night two. You fucking did it, Denver.

[Karen Kilgarin]

It was such an honor to start this tour after six years in this city with you guys. Thank you so much.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you. You really showed up. We fucking love it here. We appreciate you guys so much for coming and being here.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Oh, are you cuing me? Stay sexy. Thanks, Denver. Thank you all.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Elvis, do you want a cookie?

[Karen Kilgarin]

This has been an exactly right production.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Our senior producer is Molly Smith and our associate producer is Tessa Hughes.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Our editor is Aristotle Lacvedo.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This episode was mixed by Liana Squillace.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Our researchers are Maren McGlashan and Ali Elkin.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Email your hometowns to my favorite murdermail.com

[Karen Kilgarin]

and follow the show on Instagram at. My Favorite Murder Listen to My favorite

[Georgia Hardstark]

murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Karen Kilgarin]

And now you can watch My Favorite Murder on Netflix.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And when you're there, hit the double thumbs up and the remind me button. That's the best way you can support our show. Goodbye this episode is brought to you in part by Vital Farms.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Have you noticed that the egg section at the grocery store has gotten very complicated lately?

[Georgia Hardstark]

But Vital Farms makes it simple. Pasture raised eggs traceable to the farm.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Their hens have outdoor access year round with fresh air and sunshine and forage on rotated pastures with local grasses.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Every carton can be traced back to the farm it came from, so you can see the pasture where the hens live by visiting vitalfarms.com farm.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Look for the black martin in the egg aisle and visit vitalfarms.com to learn more.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Vital Farms Good eggs no shortcuts Goodbye

[Karen Kilgarin]

at Britbox Character is everything Stream the iconic characters defining British TV on BritBox, including Ludwig.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think I might just have solved her murder.

[Karen Kilgarin]

Vera now we're getting somewhere. Agatha Christie's Poirot, Bonjour and more beloved favorites I'm a policeman, I'm professional, I'm a Time Lord named the Dark Just for York. Once you know them, you never quite forget them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I ain't being vain, I just am

[Karen Kilgarin]

special Stream the best of British TV on BritBox. Watch with a free trial today at

[Georgia Hardstark]

BritBox.com Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this,

[Karen Kilgarin]

but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's not just for celebrities.

[Karen Kilgarin]

So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today day. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail] Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees, extra fee full [e-mail].