529 - How About Logical?

Summary

My Favorite Murder – Episode 529: "How About Logical?"

Date: April 23, 2026
Hosts: Karen Kilgariff & Georgia Hardstark
Podcast: My Favorite Murder (Exactly Right & iHeartPodcasts)

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Overview

In this episode, Karen and Georgia explore two riveting stories: first, the notorious Gilgo Beach/Long Island Serial Killer case, freshly updated after killer Rex Heuermann's 2026 guilty plea; second, the wild "Great Diamond Hoax" of 1871 in Gold Rush-era America. With their signature blend of true crime storytelling and dark humor, the hosts unpack how bias, procedural failure, and audacious fraud shape history, victims, and outcomes.

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Key Episode Segments & Discussion Points

Opening Banter & Network Highlights

Timestamps: 02:31–13:46

• Lotion & Wedding Ring Rituals: Funny exchange about pre-show nerves, missing wedding ring, and fan speculation about relationships.
  Quote: “I almost got a divorce. Just there, out of nowhere…” (Karen, 03:57)
• Cameo Scams: Karen and Georgia debunk rumors of their participation in Cameo, share an anecdote about a fan being scammed, and joke about being mistaken for younger, trendier podcasters.
  Quote: “We are not on Cameo. ...So she gave her money to some fucking people pretending to be us.” (Georgia, 04:47)
• Media Catch-up: Discussion on documentaries ("Trust Me, the Lost Prophet"), movies, and indie films (shout-out to Johnny Pemberton in "Mermaid").
• Exactly Right Network Highlights: Shout-outs to sister podcasts and updates, including “The Knife,” “Brief Recess,” and “Disgraceland.”

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Main Story #1: The Gilgo Beach Murders

Presented by: Karen
Timestamps: 14:54–43:41

Case Background & Victims

• The Disappearance of Shannon Gilbert:

  • May 1, 2010, 23-year-old Shannon Gilbert, an aspiring singer and sex worker, disappears after an appointment in Oak Beach, Long Island.
  • Her 911 call: terrified, disoriented, saying, “someone’s trying to kill her.”
    Quote: “What we do know is that at one point around 5am, Shannon calls 911 and she sounds terrified and disoriented.” (Karen, 19:07–19:24)
  • Police searching for Shannon uncover not her, but a mass burial site with four other victims: the Gilgo Four. Quote: “They basically stumble upon a graveyard that they are there just to get additional evidence for the first remains, and then it’s another, and another…” (Karen, 23:08)

• The Gilgo Four:

  • Melissa Barthelemy (24), Maureen Brainard-Barnes (25), Megan Waterman (22), Amber Costello (27)
  • All sex workers, found wrapped in burlap.
  • Families: Loss profoundly affected children, siblings; authorities' disregard fueled by stigma around sex work. Quote (on the pain for victims' families): “There were countless times I needed her and she was not there… I can no longer remember the sound of her voice.” (Karen, quoting Nicolette, 25:03)

Police Response, Institutional Failure & Bias

• Suffolk County PD initially refuses FBI help, plagued by “ethical freefall” (corruption).

  • Explicit victim blaming by police; dismissive of sex workers' deaths. Quote: “He publicly victim blames the Gilgo Four, pointing out that they were, ‘willing to get in a car with a stranger.’” (Karen, 29:53) Quote (Georgia): “That’s called Uber. You fucking do it every goddamn day.” (30:08)
  • Pattern goes unchecked for years, allowing killer to continue.

• Other victims linked: Years of unidentified or disregarded victims, some dating back to the 1990s, reveal serial nature and scale.

Breakthrough & Rex Heuermann

• In 2022, with new leadership, a dedicated task force reviews old evidence and interviews.

• Key lead: A tip about an "ogre-like" man with a green Chevy Avalanche, the use of burner phones, and distinct links to Massapequa and Manhattan. Quote: “It doesn’t take long for them to land on a name. And that name is Rex Heuermann.” (Karen, 37:15)

• 2023: DNA from pizza box trash links Heuermann to the crime scenes.

• July 2023: Heuermann is arrested; his house search reveals sadistic searches and a "serial killer checklist."

• April 2026: Heuermann pleads guilty to seven murders (the Gilgo Four plus Valerie Mack, Jessica Taylor, and Sandra Castilla), sparing the need for trial and agreeing to help FBI profilers.

  Quote (on Heuermann’s planning): “Among other things, it notes problems a killer might face. DNA, hair and fiber… and how to solve them. Booties, hairnet… The planning. The dedication going into destroying human life.” (Karen, 39:41)

Lingering Mysteries

• Shannon Gilbert’s case: Still officially “accidental,” but with plenty of suspicious gaps and family skepticism.
  • Police suggest “hysteria” and hypothermia; hosts call out coded victim-blaming language. Quote: “How about logical?... If you use the word logical, none of that other stuff tracks at all.” (Karen, 43:02)
  • Her disappearance led to the entire Gilgo Beach investigation.

Themes & Memorable Moments

• Systemic misogyny/stigma: Disregard for sex worker victims.
• Relief & sadness: Closure with Heuermann’s plea feels incomplete with many Long Island cases unsolved.
• Notable Quote: “Please let us run out [of stories].” (Karen, 33:03)
• Emotional Impact: Karen and Georgia wish for a world where their podcast—telling stories of preventable harm—is no longer needed.

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Main Story #2: The Great Diamond Hoax

Presented by: Georgia
Timestamps: 48:22–75:36

The Grift in Gold Rush San Francisco

• 1871: Prospector Philip Arnold and his cousin John Slack approach investor George Roberts with a leather sack, supposedly full of unclaimed diamonds and rubies from a secret Western location.

• They borrow George’s office safe for “security,” making him promise not to peek—but they expect him to, igniting his greed. Quote: “When someone has let slip some information about a money-making scam and they seem reluctant to tell you more about it at first…and now you’re in the position of wanting to be involved—that should be a red flag.” (Georgia, 52:20)

• Scam Mechanism:

  • They leverage the investor’s curiosity and plant industrial diamonds (from Philip’s day job) and a few gem-quality stones in a bag.
  • They parade the stones before titans of finance (Bank of California, Tiffany & Co.) who, lacking expertise, overvalue them.

The “Diamond Field” — Layered Fraud

• Investors demand a site visit; the scammers blindfold the scout, plant more stones on a Wyoming mesa, and “guide” him to serendipitous discovery.
• Investors crowd in—then come New York backers, each getting their own staged demonstration.
  • Everyone, from bankers to jewelers, is hoodwinked by unfamiliarity with uncut stones.

The Telltale Unraveling

• Scam collapses when real geologists inspect the “mine” at Diamond Peak and discover a “mix of gems impossible of occurrence in nature.” Quote: “An association of minerals impossible of occurrence in nature.” (Georgia, 68:20)
• News explodes in the San Francisco Bulletin. Investors are humiliated into silence; only one pursues the scammers for partial recompense.
• Arnold’s Fate: Lives handsomely off his cut, opens a bank, gets killed in a duel. Slack vanishes into obscurity. Quote: “In the end, his net profits from the hoax are $520,000—about $10 million today…Just—worth it. Worth it. Absolutely. He would do it again.” (Georgia & Karen, 74:11–74:15)

Themes & Tone

• Comedic flair: Joking about scam red-flags, historic greed, and ancient family scammers.
• Satirical moral: “Follow your diamond cheating dreams. Just get a scam, make it good. Leave immediately, get out right before the peak.” (Georgia, 75:36)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Spontaneous divorce. Is that a thing? ...Called Utah.” (Karen & Georgia, 04:02)
• “Thank God there’s alcohol in theaters now. I don’t know how other people do it, two & a half fucking hours…” (Georgia, 07:54)
• “How do we break down the institutional system that is based in racism, sexism, and abuse and build a new one that helps a girl who thinks she’s being killed and then gets killed and calls them on the phone to ask for that help…” (Karen, 43:53)
• “Go find your diamonds. ...But if someone shows you a bag of diamonds and says don’t look in here, and then you do? Those aren’t real diamonds.” (Georgia, 75:53)

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Timestamps of Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |----------------------------------|-----------------| | Funny wedding ring scandal | 02:56–04:09 | | Cameo scam story | 04:09–06:15 | | Network highlights/recs | 08:52–11:33 | | Gilgo Beach intro | 14:54 | | Shannon Gilbert’s 911 call | 19:07 | | Discovery of Gilgo Four | 22:28 | | Police failures/quotes | 28:46–30:24 | | DNA links to Rex Heuermann | 37:15–39:02 | | Heuermann’s guilty plea | 40:25–41:30 | | “How about logical?” comment | 43:02 | | Diamond Hoax story starts | 48:22 | | The “blindfolded scout” goat rodeo | 59:57 | | Scam collapses ("impossible in nature") | 68:20 | | Philip Arnold’s fate | 74:15 | | Wrap-up and closing advice | 75:34 |

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Conclusion

Karen and Georgia seamlessly blend hard-hitting true crime with historical hilarity, examining institutional bias, survivor impact, and the power of (mis)trust—from the beaches of Long Island to the mesas of 19th-century Wyoming. Their comedic candor and genuine empathy keep harrowing stories human, underscoring the need for vigilance, justice—and the occasional scam caution.

Final Words:
“Stay sexy and don’t get murdered.” — My Favorite Murder

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This summary covers all major content while preserving the conversational tone and authentic moments from the episode, omitting advertisements and non-content sections for clarity and narrative flow.

Transcript

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My savior. Hello and welcome to my favorite Murder. That's Georgia Hartstark, that's Karen Kilgaris, and we're here to present some things to you. Real quick.

[B]

Real quick. Just wanted to tell you a couple things.

[A]

It's gonna be fast. Like an hour and 52 minutes.

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We'll get you out of here. In and out.

[A]

Yep.

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Boom.

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Don't worry about it.

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Okay, I have to point this out immediately because we put lotion on before every show. It's like our ritual.

[A]

It's our ritual.

[B]

And I was putting mine on, and I meant to tell you that I got my nails done by a murderino today. This Murderinian named Jess. She was awesome. Old school Murderino. And then I just realized as I was putting lotion on that I forgot to put my fucking wedding ring back on.

[A]

Does that mean it's at the.

[B]

No, no, no, no. It's at my house. I took it off at my house. Thank God. But I just was like, if I don't have a wedding ring on and this goes up, people are gonna be like, are they. Okay?

[A]

The DMs are gonna start.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And people are gonna be, what's up, girl?

[B]

Plus, it looks like Vince Left for fucking WrestleMania this morning. It looks like I'm like, husband's gone, take off my ring for the weekend.

[A]

Yeah, that's too many coincidences.

[B]

It is.

[A]

I'm calling him now. I don't know. I didn't see her anywhere specifically, but I know. I can feel it.

[B]

Hashtag, what's even happening.

[A]

Is that ring on?

[B]

That ring? This one? Well, he did give me this one, too. Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I did wear this one on purpose. It has to do with my story.

[A]

So you do.

[B]

There we go.

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There. It's all day. It's all day.

[B]

True. Oh, my God. I almost got a divorce.

[A]

Just there, out of nowhere, really quick, before the show started.

[B]

Spontaneous divorce. Is that a thing?

[A]

It could be. I mean, I think it has been. It must be in the past.

[B]

Called Utah.

[A]

You know, it's funny. I was thinking about when we were in Austin for the iHeartRadio awards, and a girl came up to us afterwards and was just saying hi, and then said, I'm the one that you called a bitch on Cameo.

[B]

What?

[A]

Remember that?

[B]

No.

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I could have sworn you were standing next to me. A girl came up and was like, ha, ha, ha. I spent $250 on cameo for you to tell my friend Happy Birthday or something like that.

[B]

And.

[A]

And she goes. And you called me a stupid bitch. And then I never got my Cameo. And I was like, we are not on cameo. We're not on cameo.

[B]

We're not on cameo? No, we've never been.

[A]

Don't ever.

[B]

So she gave her money to some fucking people pretending to be us.

[A]

Not only pretending to be us, but insulting people after they give them their money.

[B]

I hate that. Let's look it up right now. Oh, my God. I think I have cameo.

[A]

See if you can look it up.

[B]

Who did I get to do a cameo once?

[A]

Well, you got all my. Kevin. Is it Kevin Hart? No, no, no, no. That's a comedian.

[B]

The wrestler.

[A]

The wrestler guy.

[B]

Kevin Von Erich.

[A]

No, no, it's the guy that was on Detroiters that plays Tim Robbins. Dad.

[B]

Oh, he was the stripper in the

[A]

strip club one in Magic Mike.

[B]

Magic Mike. That's it.

[A]

Big fan. I've gotten two cameos from him from Georgia and Vince.

[B]

Kevin Nash.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Kevin Nash. Kevin Nash. Okay, here's. People are also asking, why is my favorite murder being canceled? Are Karen and George still friends? Who is. Okay, wait a second.

[A]

No, That's a fan cult video right there. We can answer. We will answer those questions, but it's gonna be behind a. I don't know.

[B]

Nothing's coming up. But we are not on cameo. That's so horrible.

[A]

I know. There's also a chance that girl mistook me for somebody else, and she was like, oh, I meant the Giggly Squad girls or something. Like, you know what I mean?

[B]

Oh, bless the day we get fucking mixed up for the Giggly Squad girls. Like, please, can I get.

[A]

We're 40 years younger.

[B]

We're the Giggly Squad.

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We know what's going on.

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We're aunties. Oh, my God.

[A]

Nora actually told me that's her favorite podcast. I just stared into her face, not you. What am I supposed to do here?

[B]

No, that's. No.

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Yeah, everybody gets to like what they want, but please don't.

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Oh, that's.

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Don't pay money for.

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Also, we would never charge $250 to hear us. This is free. This is free.

[A]

Yeah. Here, hold on. Happy birthday, Ashley. Happy birthday, Ashley.

[B]

What?

[A]

They're all Ashley, too.

[B]

I get what we're doing. Okay. Ashley with an ee E E E E Y. Do you have anything. Did you see the Baby Jessica thing?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So Baby Jessica, who you covered, say that show title in episode 221. Symbolic violins, who was down a well when she was a baby, was arrested on assault charges.

[A]

No fun.

[B]

No fun.

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Did you already watch Trust me, the Lost Prophet.

[B]

We're in the middle of it.

[A]

Right now.

[B]

Okay.

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I have to start it. But everyone keeps talking to me about it where I'm just like, I know, I know. I have to watch it.

[B]

Did you watch the movie with. It's called the Drama Zendaya and Rock. Robert Patterson. Is that his name?

[A]

Pattinson.

[B]

Whatever. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. No, you haven't seen that.

[B]

I'm surprised.

[A]

No. I haven't gone to the movies in so long.

[B]

Okay. It's like the first time I want to go to the movie in ages because there's a spoiler and I know by the time it goes on streaming I'm going to have heard it.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I'm trying to avoid it, but I just need to go see it.

[A]

That's a big part of movies. You just want to know first. Yeah.

[B]

And I want to know like authentically, not like reading a fucking New York Post or something.

[A]

Yes. Cinema has been ruined in many ways for all of us. But that way where I watch people or read people fighting about it and all these opinions and then I'm like, well, I don't wanna have any of these opinions. I'll have a brand new opinion. And then it's like, what? Then you go to the movies and you're doing a whole different thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's such an irritating way to have pre processed entertainment.

[B]

Well, thank God there's alcohol in theaters now because it's true. I don't know how other people do it. Two and a half fucking hours just sitting there without a vodka soda. Please.

[A]

You know what I did see recently? Johnny Pemberton is the star of a movie. I think it's called Mermaid.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And it's indie. And we went to see it. It was like its first showing in la.

[B]

Is that great?

[A]

It was. So I adored Johnny as a comedian.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To see him as a kind of serious kind of comedic. Cause it's a creepy movie. There's a lot going on. Definitely worth a watch. But to watch Johnny be like the leading man is amazing.

[B]

The leading man who looks 20. It's like the best I know.

[A]

And so many people love him from Fallout. People love him from all kinds of stuff that he's already done everything he's been in so many things.

[B]

That's really exciting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Mermaid. Why am I playing footsie with you? Should we.

[A]

Do you need more room over there?

[B]

That means we should get started. Probably.

[A]

That's you signaling to me under the table.

[B]

Oh, hey, we have a podcast network. It's called Exactly Right Media.

[A]

That's correct. Slip your mind?

[B]

Yep. Here's Some highlights from it.

[A]

Over on our podcast, the Knife, Hannah and Pasha Revisit the 1995 murder. 21 year old Jennifer Evans in Virginia Beach. And then advocate Aaron Lotman joins them to walk through Dusty Turner's case and all the questions surrounding his conviction.

[B]

And then this week on Brief Recess, it's a Hope Core episode, Michael and Melissa reveal they share a birthday week. And they didn't know that.

[A]

No. It's like, I just love it.

[B]

It's a big reveal.

[A]

He's an immigration lawyer, literally fighting ice in the courts every day. And then they're like, you know what? We have the same birthday week. It's like, yep, get it where you can.

[B]

Absolutely. And Seth Porges, director of Class Action Park. Oh, my goodness. Such a good documentary. And the upcoming SantaCon documentary returns to discuss news that the founder of SantaCon was charged with federal wire fraud for stealing over $1 million from the organization. Where did they get $1 million from?

[A]

What organization? Isn't the whole thing disorganization?

[B]

I think they get money to give to presents to children in need.

[A]

I hope so.

[B]

But no, because he took all that money and got super drunk, allegedly.

[A]

And then harassed the citizens of New York City.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Okay, then, of course, Disgraceland, our newest hit podcast. So exciting to have Jake Brennan here with us. They're back this week covering Depeche Mode. Jake tells the story of excess addiction and the West Hollywood overdose that left frontman David Kahan clinically dead before the band's unlikely resurrection.

[B]

I love this, like, just. He does these, like, snippets of time about the band. It's not the history from start to finish. It's just like, here's what life was like during this time when whatever happened, happened with them. Yep. It's so fucking fascinating.

[A]

It's such good writing.

[B]

Yeah. Such good writing. And then we have a little treat for you. The Disgraceland feed Drop hits the MFM feed. So if you haven't listened to Disgraceland yet, we're making it easy for you.

[A]

Disgraceland, Disgraceland, Disgraceland.

[B]

Yet we're making it easy for you. But also get your shit together and please go. Follow and rate. Review. Subscribe to Disgraceland and its celebrity spinoff, Hollywoodland. What are you doing?

[A]

Hollywood Lynd? I'm trying. I'm trying to upstage you as you

[B]

just break your shit over there.

[A]

I literally tried to move this very subtly and yanked this off. Over on Hollywoodland, Jake looks at Sigourney Weaver through a very strange and unsettling lens. He's telling the story of how one death row inmate came to see her as a goddess sent to battle evil.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Not a hard thing to like assumption to jump to.

[B]

I don't know if that's not true, but it's scary.

[A]

It's very scary.

[B]

Yeah. All right, well, you go first.

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I go first.

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The story I'm doing is one of the most notorious cold cases in recent history.

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Oh, my God.

[A]

It begins with the 2010 disappearance of a young woman named Shannon Gilbert. Police begin to search for her on the beachside roadway where she's last seen. And that's when they begin to find one horrific discovery after another. The remains of 10 women are found between December 2010 and April 2011, setting off a chain of events that now, more than 15 years later, has finally been solved. This is the story of the Gilgo beach murderer.

[B]

Holy shit. Yeah. Neither of us have ever done it.

[A]

We've never done it. And when I was talking to Molly about it, our producer, and we're like, do you think Maren could turn this around where we could do it and try to be timely? Because all of this is happening right now. Maren's like, hold my bear.

[B]

Were you planning on covering this before it got solved? Like it wasn't on your list at all?

[A]

No.

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Yeah, no, same.

[A]

Not on my list. Because to me, it felt like. And especially all the things I've seen of it over the years, it's just like, well, we know, this is where all these bodies have been found. And that's about it.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

And, like, we have some suspects and we have some ideas. And then, of course, there was like, well, let's get into it.

[B]

Let's do it.

[A]

I was literally just gonna start talking it out and then repeat it later. But thanks, Maren, our researcher, for turning it around and always doing such an amazing job. And that idea, it's like, wait, can we. This is breaking news. Can we actually start talking about this?

[B]

Hey, what are you doing this week? Can you just do this? Yeah, sure. Marin and Allie. My God.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The best.

[A]

Our researchers on the show are the best in the best.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

So the main source used in this story today is the writing of journalist Robert Kolker, who has reported extensively on this case. He actually published a book about it called Lost Girls. And also he did a deep dive in the New York Times Magazine called the Botched Hunt for the Gilgo Beach Killer. And then the rest of the sources are in our show notes. We start on the early morning of May 1, 2010, and Shannon Gilbert is in a car headed for Long island. She is just 23 years old, but she's been through a lot. She's endured some very difficult things in her childhood, including having to go to foster care at one point. But Shannon's friends remember her as a radiant, popular girl with undeniable talent, because going through hard stuff in life also really galvanizes you totally and who you are. And the thing I'd never heard about Shannon before is that Shannon can really sing. Reporter Robert Kolker describes her as having a, quote, soulful voice that gave some of her friends chills and made others cry.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So she's a good singer. In eighth grade, she was cast as Ms. Hannigan in her school's production of Annie, and that was a life changing experience for her. She realizes she wants to be a star after she graduates from high school. She does try to make that dream come true, but as many of us know, it's very hard to make a living when that is what your goal is. So Shannon sometimes earns money through sex work, and she advertises as an escort on Craigslist and in Backpage. So when she gets a booking, typically she'll use a male driver to take her to the appointments, both for transportation and for her personal safety. And so that's what she does on May 1, 2010. Her driver is a man who she's not only worked with before, but she considers a friend. His name's Michael Pack. He picks her up. They head down Ocean Parkway, which is that long road that runs right next to the ocean and spans a very long swath of southern Long Island. Parts of Ocean Parkway are very dark at night, except for, like, the cars coming in the other direction. Shannon's driver, Michael, pulls off the road into a gated community in Oak Beach. As Shannon disappears into her client's home, the driver waits outside in the car. And everything is basically routine until around 5am Also, I'd just say the client is a man named Joseph Brewer. I think it's important to start talking about the men that are involved in these cases. It's weird cause I just caught myself doing that where it's like, oh, well, we don't have to get into that, but we're getting into Shannon's whole life. So Joseph Brewer's in this too. And that should be, I think, standard.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

So there's a lot we don't and may never know about what happened that night. But what we do know is that at one point around 5am, Shannon calls 911 and she sounds terrified and disoriented. She can't explain where she is or what's happening to her. She just says, someone's trying to kill her.

[B]

Oh, my God. This is the most chilling, most chilling part. But also, none of this story, I feel like would have gotten out there if this weird, chilling thing hadn't happened. Almost exactly. It made people pay attention to what was already going on for years.

[A]

Yes, a horrible like rock being moved. And this victim, who heard death, while entirely senseless, actually brings the authorities to all of these other cold cases that are just there, like just right there. So the 911 recording of the call has been released since you can listen to it, and on it you can hear both Joseph Brewer and Michael Pack talking to Shannon in the background. But it's hard to make out or make sense of what's going on. What we know from here is based on witness statements, Shannon's client says that she suddenly started to panic when she was in his house. He went outside to ask the driver for help getting her out of the house, getting her to leave. And then the driver and the client both TR while still inside the house with the goal of basically trying to get her into the car. But because Shannon is so terrified, it doesn't work. And after a few minutes, her driver states that he goes back to the car, unsure of what to do, presumably. And that's when he watches Shannon bolt out of this house and sprint into the darkness. What we do know now is that she went and knocked on some neighbors doors and actually at least one of those neighbors brought her inside, but then she was still so freaked out. And the thing I keep thinking of this is all theory and opinion, but what I keep thinking of is that she got drugged.

[B]

Ketamine. Ketamine will fucking do that to you immediately.

[A]

Right? Or just like any drug. Worse that you think you're here and you're handling things this way and all of a sudden you know it's not good and you're not in control.

[B]

We've all been there with drugs that we knew we took. We freaked the fuck out. And then not knowing that you took them, that's like 10 times worse.

[A]

Being drugged?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Being drugged.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Also known as being drugged.

[A]

Yeah, Being drugged. So Michael Pack says he tries to find her. He drives around for a while looking for her. He never finds her. So he goes home. Assuming she just find a way to get back to New Jersey herself. Not the job of a driver in that scenario.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The problem is Shannon never finds her way back to New Jersey. And her worried boyfriend there quickly reaches out to the driver. He admits that he left Long island without her. The two reportedly call around to different precincts. No one's seen her. So her boyfriend files a missing persons report and that's it. Basically. Shannon's case gets almost no media attention. As author Robert Kolker writes, quote, a missing sex worker rarely does. So now we're back on Long island and investigators begin searching for Shannon, where she was last seen, including the coastal stretch off Ocean Parkway along Oak beach and nearby Gilgo Beach. The terrain is marshy and uneven. And because it's spring, spring turning to summer, it's also crawling with poison ivy and very thick brambles. Very hard to search.

[B]

Looks very swampy, like Florida Y almost.

[A]

And it's a part of beach where it truly is. Like there's houses, there's Ocean Parkway, there's these brambles, sand, and the ocean right there. So the police continue the search throughout the year. I don't know how often, but it does continue. And then as fall turns to winter, that overgrowth is finally less thick. And on December 11 7, after Shannon was last seen, police dogs hit on human remains. They found these remains hidden deep in the brambles, bound with strips of burlap. Two days later, they find three more burlap bound sets of remains.

[B]

Jesus.

[A]

So they basically stumble upon, stumble upon a graveyard that they are there just to get additional evidence for the first Remains, and then it's another and another, and they're bound the same way with the same material, same size of assuming woman. I mean, like horrifying chaos. None of the remains belonged to Shannon Gilbert. When the DNA tests come back, investigators identify 24 year old Melissa Barthelemy, who had been missing for over a year. She'd gone missing in 2009, last seen at her apartment in the Bronx. And like Shannon, she was ambitious. She dreamed of opening her own hair salon. She's a really talented hairdresser. She did sex work to pay the bills. Melissa was very close with her family, who clearly loved her very much. In fact, in July of 2009, right before she went missing, her little sister Amanda was planning to come and visit her in New York. In a July 11 phone call, they talked through Amanda's upcoming trip. And the next day, July 12, Melissa set out to meet a client on Long island. And she was never seen again. Melissa's disappearance devastated her family and her sister. Amanda once said, quote, she was not only my blood sister, she was my soul sister. So they were very close, obviously.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Another body identified is 25 year old Maureen Brainard Barnes of Norwich, Connecticut. She was reported missing in July of 2007 and she'd last been seen in New York City. Her loved ones remember her as being creative, courageous and gifted with words. At times, she did sex work to pay family bills, but what she really loved was writing poetry and she loved to write rap lyrics. She had two children and her daughter Nicolette, who's now an adult, has said that losing her mom, quote, drastically changed the trajectory of my life. There were countless times I needed her and she was not there. I remember she read to me every night and now I can no longer remember the sound of her voice.

[B]

Oh, God, that's heartbreaking. Yeah.

[A]

The next remains to be identified belong to 22 year old Megan Waterman of Scarborough, Maine. Her family has said that they believe she was forced into sex work. Author Robert Kolker reports. Megan's boyfriend, the man she considered the love of her life, was seen by others as, quote, her pimp and abuser. Sad. She sometimes saw clients in New York. She was last seen leaving a Long island hotel in June of 2010, presumably to meet a client back home in Maine. Megan has a young daughter named Lily who she loved very much. Megan's been called a, quote, fun, caring and loving mom. Lily's in her teens now and has talked about the pain of losing her mother, saying, quote, I still wonder what her voice sounded like or her laugh. I do remember missing her and always wondering when she was coming back. I don't wish this on anyone. The pain I went through or go through on top of that. Cause what is getting me, when your mom dies, especially when you're young, it's devastating. And for young girls it's like, yes, it's foundationally devastating, definitely. And then the idea that anybody would treat your mom's death like it was

[B]

less important than anybody else's deserved it to. People would like that's what people say.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And to feel that and not care as much about your own mother, that's devastating.

[A]

It's just the authority. Moralizing, cops, moralizing. This doesn't matter. This does. And that's what this story is all about at the end of the day, is people thinking that they can classify human beings that way. The final set of remains are identified as those of 27 year old Amber Costello, who lived in West Babylon, New York at the time of her disappearance in September 2010. So it was just months after Megan Waterman went missing. And Amber struggled with addiction, so she sometimes picked up sex work. She was last seen leaving her apartment to get picked up by a client. And on her way out the door, she tells her roommate, quote, if my sister calls, tell her I love her. So these four women, Melissa, Maureen, Megan and Amber, become known as the Gilgo 4. And because of the similarities, their remains being found in the same area, wrapped in burlap, the use of online escort ads, and the fact that they were all young, very petite white women, many people assume that a single person is responsible for their murders. Right. The serial killer theories start immediately. Yeah, and with good reason. Right, but the Suffolk County Police, who have the jurisdiction over this case, don't publicly confirm this at first. The commissioner at the time tells the press, quote, I don't want anyone to think we have a Jack the Ripper running around Suffolk county with blood dripping from a knife. God forbid.

[B]

Yeah, because then we won't have tourists coming.

[A]

I mean, it's. Yeah, we're stuck in Jaws for the rest of our lives. And it's. Instead it's like, no, get on this right now and solve it right now. Statements like this, of course, don't sit well with the victims families and they, along with the public, start connecting the dots that maybe there is a Long island serial killer and that is what's being discovered. But if you know anything about this case, you've already read about the widely reported procedural missteps at the Suffolk County Police Department. Despite having Access to cell phone and Internet data because the victims used their phones to contact their clients. Statements from the people who knew these women, among many other leads. To chase the police just somehow don't initially identify any suspects or persons of interest at all.

[B]

Like, talk to all the sex offenders in the area, you know what I mean? Like, that's the basics.

[A]

Or how about just the sex clients in the area. Go to those rich people neighborhoods and say, who among you are hiring and we need to talk to you in a serious way. But God forbid, it's a professional man that gets questions, right? In fact, they turned down the FBI's help.

[B]

Don't ever do that.

[A]

Reporting suggests that the Suffolk police had serious internal corruption and misconduct issues at the time. Author Robert Kolker describes the department as being in a, quote, ethical freefall. This may have hampered, if not totally frozen any real investigating into these deaths as implicit biases around sex workers and what they do and do not deserve go completely unchecked. And that's not to say that there weren't people that were there. Like, if they were still looking for her from the beginning of 2010 until the winter, then someone cared enough to keep on going back out there. That definitely was happening. But when the system is set up

[B]

like that, yeah, not a chance.

[A]

So per Kolker's reporting, at one point. This is going to make you very mad. Like it made me the then chief of detectives publicly. Victim blames the Gilgo for pointing out that they were, quote, willing to get into a car with a stranger.

[B]

Fuck you.

[A]

That's called Uber. You fucking do it every goddamn day.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

He also called it a, quote, consolation that the killer was targeting a specific group of people, sex workers and not the general public.

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

Yeah. It's an infuriating attitude for local law enforcement to display, especially when these homicides fit into an even larger pattern of violence and murder on Long Island. Several sets of human remains have been discovered in this area going back to the mid-90s.

[B]

Holy.

[A]

It's not new. Yeah. And they include 20 year old Jessica Taylor of New York City, whose remains were discovered in Manorville in July of 2003. She had gone missing from the Port Authority Bus terminal in Manhattan days before the discovery of her body. And 24 year old Valerie Mack of Philadelphia, who disappeared in the year 2000. Her remains were discovered 11 years later, also in Manorville. 34 year old New Yorker Karen Vergada's remains are first discovered on nearby fire island in 1996, which is the same year she went missing. And the remains of 28 year old Sandra Castilla, who's a native of Trinidad and Tobago, living in New York city, are also ID'd. And she was found in Southampton in 1993. She had vanished only days earlier. So Sandra Castilla was one of the first of these bodies and then it just kept happening, right?

[B]

I mean, everyone after that could have been saved if there had been enough of a. One would think so.

[A]

We don't know much about those women. Authorities have alleged that Jessica, Valerie and Karen worked as escorts, with police stopping short of describing Sandra as doing the same and instead calling her lifestyle, quote, substantially similar to that of a sex worker's, whatever that means. Obviously, there's much more to these people than the jobs that they paid the bills with, right? They all had people in their lives who cared about them and wondered what happened to them. Fortunately, the Suffolk County Police Department does experience some serious overhauling in the coming years. And as investigators continue working the Gilgo 4 case, they begin to find even more remains off of Ocean Parkway. I mean, that's. It's fucking crazy the amount of, of bodies and the idea that anyone would let anybody say, no thanks, FBI, when that's what's happening.

[B]

You wanna be like, oh, you're so. What's it called, sure of yourself, that you don't think you need them. But no, it's actually, you're corrupt and you don't want them to figure that out. That's the real fucking thing. That's why corruption is so fucked up. I mean, obviously it is, but also

[A]

it keeps out any possibility of justice.

[B]

Guys, you guys, why do we have to keep doing this podcast? Can't we run out of fucking stories?

[A]

Please let us run out, okay? This includes more remains belonging to Jessica Taylor, Valerie Mack, and Karen Vergada, all found in the spring of 2011, suggesting that those remains had been scattered. And then in December 2011, more than a year after she went missing, investigators finally find Shannon Gilbert's phone, clothing and ID on Oak beach, not far from where she was last seen. And a few days later, her remains are finally located in a marsh off Ocean Parkway, about a quarter of a mile from those belongings. So it won't be until 2015, after sustained pressure from the victim's loved ones. And I believe it's Shannon's mother that just goes to town and is like, yep, I'm not going away. Unrelenting, just, yeah, it won't be until 2015, after sustained pressure from the victim's loved ones and under A new Suffolk County Police commissioner that the FBI is invited back into the investigation. Welcome. And the real breakthrough comes years after that in 2022, when a dedicated task force is put together to investigate these murders. Specifically. 2022.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

11 years later.

[B]

Like the shame you should feel that it's taken that long to even put together a task force, let alone solve it.

[A]

Task force first.

[B]

Yeah, please.

[A]

With fresh eyes, the task force pours over case files, evidence and statements collected by earlier detectives. And they quickly hit on a statement provide Amber Costello's roommate at the time of her disappearance. He had told police about a, quote, ogre, like client of Amber's who drove a green Chevy Avalanche pickup truck.

[B]

Could he be more specific? Like just. He's telling you. Yeah. Have you seen the documentary that he is in that the roommate is in?

[A]

The roommate?

[B]

No, he's just the best. He's like a character out of euphoria. Like, gotta watch him, love him. Yes.

[A]

Also just these people who are like just trying to get by in their day to day and suddenly they have to take like, I need to get my roommate justice.

[B]

I told you who did it and you won't even fucking listen to me.

[A]

Yeah. Maren writes. File that information away for a second.

[B]

Yeah, okay.

[A]

So long established by this point is that Melissa, Maureen, Megan and Amber, the Gil Go 4, they'd all been contacted by someone using a burner phone shortly before they disappeared.

[B]

I don't even know where you get a burner phone. In the mall at one of the kiosks.

[A]

Oh, the black market Internet. Isn't that what they call it? The smartphone?

[B]

I know, but then that's traceable, isn't it?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

I don't either. I hope I never have to. You hope you do have to.

[A]

Suddenly I'm like, eh, look, wouldn't it be kind of fun at huncher prank calling people? Someone had also used a burner phone and Melissa's own phone to repeatedly contact Melissa's little sister Amanda.

[B]

So fucking disgusting.

[A]

It's Craven. That's the one who is planning a trip to meet her sister in New York while Melissa was actively missing. Amanda is 15 years old and she says a man would be on the other line taunting, at one point telling her he'd raped and murdered her sister.

[B]

Oh my God, the depravity. It's the same with a fucking Golden State killer. Like, you are so sick in a way that we will never understand.

[A]

And thank God it is rare. But at the same time it's like. And that's why women choose the bear. The bear doesn't call you for years afterwards. Exactly. Okay. Burner phones are tricky to trace. The whole point of having a burner phone. But calls made from these phones still ping nearby towers. I didn't know that police had already figured out. These calls typically hit towers in midtown Manhattan and on Long island, particularly in the town of Massapequa. By 2022, when the task force is at work, Melissa's family had long been begging police to investigate those locations more fully. Now the task force does, hoping they can find a man who may matches the description of an ogre who owns a Chevy Avalanche, who has connections to midtown Manhattan and Massapequa. And it doesn't take long for them to land on a name. And that name is Rex Heuermann.

[B]

Doesn't take long except a decade to land.

[A]

Doesn't take long for the task force who is assigned fucking over a decade later.

[B]

Basic fucking research and. Fine.

[A]

And these families having to beg. 59 year old Rex Heuermann, described by some acquaintances as, quote, a big goofy guy and others as, quote, cold and distant, kind of creepy. Men, women. Is that what you were gonna say?

[B]

No, I was gonna point to the hometown that we just recently did.

[A]

Yes, that's right.

[B]

Well, had come out before this episode. I don't think so.

[A]

I think later. No, I think. Breaking news to this thing. Yeah, we've got a minisode coming up where you can hear from someone who wrote in.

[B]

Got a personal relationship with this guy, Right?

[A]

Worked near and around.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so Rex Hurman lives in Massapequa. He works in midtown Manhattan, where he has an architecture firm. His personal cell phone records show that he's used his cell phone in those same areas as the burner phone has been used. Many of our victims went missing at times when Heuerman's wife and kids were away on trips without him. This is all compelling circumstantial evidence. But there's also physical evidence and new ways to test DNA versus what was available earlier in the. I mean, you think about 2011 versus 2026. It's crazy.

[B]

It's huge.

[A]

Yeah, big difference. Now detectives take a few hairs found at crime scenes and compare them against a DNA sample pulled from a pizza box that Heuerman had thrown away.

[B]

Have you seen the footage of it? They have it on, like, security of

[A]

them getting that pizza box.

[B]

I think they have them getting the pizza box. They definitely have. Arresting him.

[A]

Yes. That day that started happening. I know it was again, this, like, it's finally happening.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The DNA is consistent with Heuermann and or a member of his household. And then In July of 2023, Heuermann's arrested and search warrants are filed for his home and electronic devices. What investigators find is truly heinous. It's deeply disturbing. Like searches for porn involving the mutilation of women. They also find Google searches for family members of the Gilgo 4 victims.

[B]

Jesus.

[A]

Members of the police task force, and a document of Heuerman's that's been characterized as a, quote, serial killer checklist. Among other things, it notes problems a killer might face. DNA, hair and fiber.

[B]

My God.

[A]

And how to solve them. Booty's hairnet.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

The planning.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The dedication going into destroying human life.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Despite everything that I've just told you, Heuermann will maintain that he's innocent until this month, April 8, 2026, when he shocks the world by pleading guilty to the murders of the Gilgo 4, as well as the murder of Valerie Mack, Jessica Taylor and Sandra Castilla. He also admits to killing Karen Vergada, but he will not be prosecuted for her murder. As part of his plea deal, which also entails cooperating with agents from the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit who hope to gain more insight into his crime.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In the wake of his guilty plea, Rex Heuerman's trial, which was scheduled for later this year, will not happen. And while it closes several cases commonly associated with the so called Long island serial killer case, this story is not entirely over. Unsolved murders and disappearances on Long island remain under investigation. There is real reason to believe Rex Heuerman is not behind all of them. Among the lingering cases is Shannon Gilbert. If you remember, in May 2010, she ran into the darkness of Oak Beach. Her body was found more than a year later, separate from her clothing and her belongings. Reports note that after fleeing her client's home, Shannon knocked on a couple doors, asking residents inside for help. By the time someone actually calls the police, though, and gives them Shannon's location, she's gone. Shannon's client and her driver were questioned by police. They are never considered persons of interest in this. And her client insists that he doesn't know why she suddenly started panicking. That night. Things get very fuzzy. I know. It's so weird, it's so crazy, but it's like it could have been a million things, right? Things do get fuzzy. After Shannon leaves her client's house. Reporter Robert Kolker makes space for the possibility that somebody who encountered her that night might know more than they are disclosing. Investigators, meanwhile, think Shannon's death may have been accidental. She could have been intoxicated. That was. She could also been drugged, if we're just gonna say theories, and then wandered into the chilly marsh, which many have pointed out would have required a ton of strength and energy to wade through, especially for a woman as petite as Shannon. And that. That's where she ultimately either drowned or died of hypothermia. But as for her clothing and belongings being found far away from her remains, a former Suffolk county police commissioner once theorized, quote, that's explainable because she's, you know, hysterical, and she's discarding her possessions as she moves. Her genes might have come off from running in that environment. And that is a possibility.

[B]

Okay, bro.

[A]

I mean, also, it's like, then let's start naming any aliens.

[B]

Yes. Any possibility in possibility. Yeah, let's not do that.

[A]

And also, it's kind of going back to. She's hysterical.

[B]

Right? Hysterical.

[A]

Why would you use that word?

[B]

Don't use that fucking word.

[A]

Hysterical. Because she thinks someone's trying to kill her.

[B]

Yeah, we're not doing that anymore.

[A]

And she ends up dead along with all the other people who are dead.

[B]

She's hysterical because she thinks she's gonna die, and then she dies. That kind of makes the hysterical part.

[A]

You don't get to use that word null and void. How about logical?

[B]

Right?

[A]

And if you use the word logical, none of that other stuff tracks at all.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

Shannon's family has long suspected foul play, and the lack of knowing exactly what happened to her is something they've had to wrestle with for more than a decade. Robert Kolker has spoken extensively with Shannon's family, including her mom, Mary, who managed to find a silver lining in this unimaginably horrible situation. Kolker writes, quote, mary understood that one way of finding at least a shred of meaning in the loss of her daughter was that her disappearance led to the discovery of those four women several months later. And that without Shannon, there would be no case. There would be no search for the killer.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And that is the story of the Gilgo beach murders.

[B]

My God. Great job.

[A]

So now we're all up to date.

[B]

Great.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow. Yeah. That story just makes you feel real bad.

[A]

How do we break down the institutional system that is based in racism, sexism, and abuse and build a new one that helps a girl who thinks she's being killed and then gets killed and calls them on the phone to ask

[B]

for that help or, like, needs money? Because she's trying to live her life and can't afford to do that and so turns to something that men pay for and want and then gets ostracized

[A]

for it puts her at risk.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And then she's blamed exactly for their violence.

[B]

Right? Because she couldn't make a living the way she wanted to or not enough or whatever it is. And so she's yeah, I don't know how we do that. Next Go to the next timeline. Next timeline? You want a timeline Hop we'll timeline

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Acorns Advisors, LLC, an SEC registered investment advisor. View important [e-mail] Goodbye. Okay, well as we do, we're gonna make a fucking sharp right turn.

[A]

Great.

[B]

Different direction completely.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And we're going to the spring of 1871. We love that era. I love the past in San Francisco. Hey, your fave. So the California gold rush is long over by this point, but this is still very much a town of prospectors and bankers who fuel their treasure hunts. So the prospectors and bankers pay the fucking regular people to go find the diamonds and shit, right?

[A]

Prospectors do it. Bankers pay them to do it.

[B]

Yes, that's right. Yeah. Okay, so recently a vein of silver has been discovered in Nevada and much of that mining is being spearheaded from San Francisco. And people are moving To San Francisco every day to get a piece of that accident. So one evening, a mining investor named George Roberts gets a knock on the door of his office in San Francisco. Outside on his doorstep are two men, One he recognizes and one he doesn't. The one he knows is a handsome 41 year old named Philip Arnold. And Philip had worked with George on some gold and silver mining endeavors. So he already knew him and trusted him. But he currently works at a company that makes drill bits out of industrial grade diamonds. Did you know they did that?

[A]

I mean.

[B]

No. No, because it turns out some diamonds aren't really worth a lot of money.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they turn them into stuff like drill bits, which is where this guy Philip works. Well, with this detail, we begin the story of the great Diamond Hoax. Ooh, a hoax. We got a scam.

[A]

Hell yeah.

[B]

Here we go.

[A]

Love it.

[B]

The main source for the story is a 1940 New Yorker article called The American Golconda by A.J. liebling. And the rest of the sources can be found in our show notes. So that's. I still need this paper. Okay. Okay. So the other man with Philip. Let me show you Philip real quick. He's fucking hot. I guess for that time. Here's his photo.

[A]

Let's see. I'll be the judge of that. Oh, my. Hi. That looks like Paul. What's his name? From Ireland.

[B]

Totally Paul Mescal. Paul Mescal. He does. With really flat hair and a severe part down the middle.

[A]

I love his layering. It's a great coat.

[B]

What do you think his mustache smells like?

[A]

It smells like gold. He's got a Kirk Douglas dot in his chin.

[B]

Yeah, He's a handsome fella.

[A]

He combs that hair pretty. Seriously. Yeah.

[B]

And he looks like he knows it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, so the other man with our friend Philip here is a guy named John Slack. He is Philip's cousin. He's a bit surly, he doesn't talk much. Both look really dirty, like they've been traveling a long time. They are the prospectors. Essentially, Philip is clutching a leather sack, the kind someone might use to hold gemstones. Fucking, it's like just straight out of a cartoon, you know, like a leather. Like Goonies.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah. They tell George, the investor, that the bag contains diamonds and rubies which they discovered on an exploratory trip through a region. And they refuse to name what the region is, but they're like, excited about it. They say that because they've arrived back into town after banking hours, they want to use George's office safe to store the stones overnight. Like, hey, you know me. Can you just hold onto these? George is like, absolutely. And I. And they make him promise he won't look in the bag.

[A]

Hmm.

[B]

And then.

[A]

But you'd look in the bag, right?

[B]

Yeah. And he does.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, how could you not?

[B]

Of course he like. Yeah.

[A]

Is that part of the setup?

[B]

Yeah. See, when someone comes around, they're like, I don't want you in on this thing. And you're like, I gotta get in on this thing.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Cause it's your idea now that you're in on it. So George says. Okay. He says he won't look in the bag. And then he doesn't press them for details about where they were, even though he really wants to or. No. Philip and John, they say that the region they were in is controlled by Native Americans, who, if this story had been true, are rightfully hostile towards white outsiders. Yes, but the story's a lie. And they say that because of the Native Americans, because of the hostile area. That means any future larger expeditions will require significant upfront investment in order to have adequate defenses. So it costs a lot of money to go find a diamond mine and to have everything you need.

[A]

You're not just gonna go out there and be like panning for gold type of thing?

[B]

No.

[A]

Well, and also. Cause it's very well dealt with in the TV show Deadwood, which I highly recommend everyone watch. But like, you think you want it, you're out there trying to get it with all everybody else, then you get it. Now you're in like 10 times the danger.

[B]

Totally. Now everyone wants what you've got, and they're not afraid to try to get it. And so if there's one thing we've learned when we do stories about scams, it's when someone has let slip some information about a money making scam and they seem reluctant to tell you more about it at first. And now you're in the position of wanting to be involved. That should be a red flag.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. Mm. And you should stay away. Unfortunately, George does not do this. Instead, exactly according to Philip's plan, the two men leave. George takes the fucking jewel bag and looks inside it. And what he sees to his semi trained eye is a pile of gemstones. All uncut, but very precious looking nonetheless. He sees garlic, garnets, sapphires, diamonds. And I wore this ring so we could look at all the.

[A]

Are those garnets and sapphires and diamonds?

[B]

Yeah. And they're vintage. I don't think they are real anything, but. Yes, I Wanted to do a.

[A]

But look at what those look like.

[B]

This is called a Sputnik ring. And I'm definitely married. So all these are commonly found in Arizona. And so it makes George feel pretty sure that that's the region that Philip and John have returned from. But the fact that there are diamonds in the bag is actually a huge detail. No one has diamonds in North America yet. And George brings the bag to a man named William Chapman Ralston's house. He's the chairman of the board of the bank of California.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

And the two of them are like, holy shit. And they bring the stones to an appraiser. But the thing is, Philip, the scammer, who is hot, knows that no appraiser in San Francisco has the equipment or expertise to gauge the quality of uncut diamonds. He's just betting on everyone being a little uninformed. Based on.

[A]

I'm very impressed by a bag of gems.

[B]

Exactly. And it happens over and over again. They can tell that there are real diamonds in there, but they have no idea that they are industrial grade diamonds. The ones they turn into those drill bits where he works, they're not gem grade. Plus they're mixed in with a few stones that are actually of good quality. So the appraiser tells George and William, the Richie guys, that the stones are probably worth around $100,000. We have a few opportunities to do in Today's money story. 1871. $100,000.

[A]

$2 million.

[B]

2.8 million.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

That means you win it.

[A]

I do it.

[B]

That means you win the. Yep. You put this on your head.

[A]

A paperclip crown, finally.

[B]

So that's what they think it's worth. In fact, they're actually worth about $12,000, not $100,000, which is. Is still $300,000 in today's money.

[A]

You always got for the big scams. You gotta invest that money.

[B]

Exactly, exactly. So at this point in time, let's talk a little about diamonds.

[A]

Diamonds.

[B]

Diamonds. At this point in time, the majority of the world's diamond deposits have not yet been discovered. For the first 2,000 years of the recorded history of diamond mining, diamonds have come from only one place, a place called golconda, India. And these are now considered some of the rarest and highest quality diamonds in the world. They're the fucking OG The Hope diamond is from golconda, just to give you a fucking idea. And I looked at some photos and they're just so beautiful. By 1830, the Golconda diamonds had been completely mined. Oh, they're Gone. They're done.

[A]

We took em all.

[B]

We took em all. And by that point, the center of the diamond mining industry has moved to Brazil. Where diamonds had been discovered in the 1700s by Portuguese colonizers. I mean, hence colonization fucking everywhere.

[A]

Right?

[B]

You know.

[A]

Cause I wanted to say, did the colonizers find it or did the natives find it and they murdered the shit out of the natives to steal them?

[B]

Probably that one. I mean, they're not worth anything unless you can sell them and you put worth on them. So if the natives did find them and they were just like here, here. Yeah. But then in 1867, five years before Philip walks into George's office with his bag of jewels, a 21.25 carat diamond is discovered in South Africa. And so this kicks off the frenzy of prospecting in South Africa. And also it generates a lot of interest in where the next big deposit of diamonds is gonna be found. And there are rumors that Arizona for some reason might be a fruitful place to look. Because the prospectors believe that there's some geological similarities to South Africa. So that's just like an educated guess from the 1800s.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So people in the mining world are already focused on Arizona at this point. And George and William are now. The rich guys are now under the impression that Philip and John have found that sought after vein of diamonds there and that they need to invest in order to find more.

[A]

I'm not a geologist. I meant to tell you that 10 years ago, but is it. And you're not either, but is it possible that you'd find a diamond mine and a ruby mine and a garnet mine, like all those things together?

[B]

You're being too sensible.

[A]

Okay, you asked. My mistake.

[B]

So let's talk a little bit about hot Philip here. He had been born in Kentucky. He has a wife and family there. Though it sounds like he left them to try to the gold rush in the west, which seems like a lot of them did. He does send back money periodically, but who the fuck knows what that means. He had settled in San Francisco. And in the late 1860s, after the gold rush had died down, he took a job as a bookkeeper at that company that makes rock drills out of industrial diamonds. So that's how he got ahold of them. These drills are used for mining other stones. And there he learned a bit about different grades of diamonds and where they come from. So knowing everything, he goes first to London where he buys all of those uncut stones that George will later see in the bag. Those stones are mostly Industrial grade diamonds with a few nice gemstones mixed in. And after returning to the US he meets up with his cousin John in St Louis and together the two travel through Arizona where they buy the telltale garnets from a Native American. So they mix all the stones up, shake it up like a shake and bake, and then they bring that to where we were in the beginning of the story, to George's doorstep with the intention of enticing him to invest. The plan works. George and William, the banker and George tell Philip and John that they insist on being allowed to invest in their new diamond venture.

[A]

Yes, they.

[B]

You have to include us. I looked in the bag.

[A]

Yeah, listen, I did all the things you told me not to do.

[B]

You must. They say they can help raise the capital that the men need to establish a new mine and can help provide the security they need to defend against the made up Native Americans and then made up mine. Philip says he's unwilling to part with controlling interest in his mining venture, but he'll allow George and William to invest. Very generous of him.

[A]

Very kind.

[B]

Yeah. Before proceeding though, William the banker insists on sending a scout to the area to make sure the diamonds are real. He at least has some forethought into, you know, the legitimacy of this whole fucking plan. So Philip and John say that's fine, but they make the scout wear a blindfold for the journey so he can't tell where it is. Cause he doesn't want to reveal the exact location yet until he has some money. So William chooses a gold miner named David D. Colton to accompany the men. And like everyone pretty much in the US he has never seen a diamond field in his life. So he doesn't really have a point of reference for it. So maybe he's not the best guy

[A]

to go and they're gonna build a little diamond field for him.

[B]

Uh huh. Yeah. I mean essentially, yeah. They take him on a train, they don't go to Arizona, they go to Wyoming instead. And then they put him, I think on a horse and they like blindfold him essentially just like walk him around for a long time on a blindfold on a horse. You could not pay me to go blindfold on a horse. It's for three days.

[A]

Oh no, you could not fucking pay

[B]

me for an hour back then.

[A]

It was the only option.

[B]

Not the blindfold part though.

[A]

Oh, the blindfold.

[B]

I'll do the horse.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, okay. You know what I mean? I don't want to. I'm not like begging to, but like. Got it.

[A]

You're Basically just having to feel how to ride that horse correctly.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yeah. That's scary.

[B]

No, that's. I'd get car sick.

[A]

A lot of trust issues there.

[B]

So when they take the blindfold off, this gold miner finds himself on a 7000 foot high mesa in the middle of a vast wilderness. They walk for a bit and come to what looks like an ant hill shimmering with diamond dust. They dig for a few hours with pocket knives and they each find several diamonds and a few other precious stones. So once they're back in California, the gold miner's like, it's fucking lucky. Legit. He takes the stones to a jeweler who again says they're worth a lot of money and if you found this there, then there's gotta be a lot more. So just like nobody fucking knows what they're talking about.

[A]

Everyone's bullshitting, everyone's bullshitting. And then it's that thing of like, if I did that and got the confirmation, I would go, okay, now somebody, no blindfolds. Yeah, because now we know.

[B]

Yeah, right. But then they'd know where it is and they wouldn't have to pay him, you know, I don't know. I 100% agree.

[A]

I'm trying to scam solve here. It's not gonna work cuz this already happened 100 years ago.

[B]

More than that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is that Philip or John, One of them had simply scattered some more of those London diamonds in that spot while he was still blindfolded. So they walked him up they went, and then they were like, come on down.

[A]

And he's like, plink, plink, plink. Is it starting to rain?

[B]

Diamond.

[A]

Diamond.

[B]

So once David the mining scout tells William George the diamond field is legit, the two rich dudes get really excited and they know they're gonna have to raise some serious cat capital. And as we know, another classic hallmark of a scam is urgency. So William and George think that at any moment some other prospector or trapper or just any dude on the street could come across this unclaimed diamond field and take it for themselves. Because nobody owns it except the Native Americans, of course. So they think they have to raise enough money to open a brand new diamond mine and fund an army to protect it. And they have to do it fast when this. And you get stupid when you're doing stuff. Oh, you know.

[A]

And also it's so much money, right? Yeah.

[B]

So it requires a trip to New York to get investors on board. And in New York the diamonds are again appraised by fucking the founder of Tiffany and Company. Oh, Mr. Tiffany. And he values them at at least $150,000. And in today's money, he gets it wrong too.

[A]

Oh, does he?

[B]

Yeah, like I think. I think everyone gets it wrong and keeps getting it wrong. And no one wants to be the one who's like, I don't think this is real, cuz what if you're wrong? Like three guys ahead of you.

[A]

And like Tiffany. J. Tiffany, who got in there and was like, no, these are great. They're like, oh, no, I guess I'll go up against that guy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

After a while. It's not worth it.

[B]

Right. So he says that what they found so far is worth at least $150,000. Which in today's money would that put it over?

[A]

Is that $3.1 million. I'm learning.

[B]

Yeah. So now the New York investors believe that this tiny sample from this vast diamond field is worth million. But again, they're wanting to do their due diligence and send their own mining expert, just to be sure. So Philip, the main hot guy, agrees that he'll do this if they give him an upfront investment of $650,000, which is worth almost 18 million today. Oh, shit. Which he says, we'll buy him and the cousins out of any. Like, I'll show you where it is with the money.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it seems like everyone forgot that at the beginning of the scam, Philip claimed he would never let go of a controlling stake in the mine. It's like, oh, you're now will to do it, even though now you know it's worth so much more.

[A]

Everyone forgot, including Philip.

[B]

Yeah, red flag.

[A]

He didn't track that.

[B]

So they basically agree to it. Before Philip can take the group on the trip, he says he and his cousin need $200,000 up front of that $650,000. The investors agree to these terms. And so with that $200,000, because they're already knowing they're gonna get 650,000 total, the cousins go back to Europe and buy $50,000 worth of the worst diamonds in Amsterdam. What? That trip? And then they seem to blow a decent chunk of the rest on nice hotels, meals, and entertainment. Like, take me there.

[A]

Can we bring that picture back up again? What it would be like? He's like, let me take you to Amsterdam. Do you like sirloin? Stay.

[B]

You know who he looks like? Rory Scoville.

[A]

He looks like Rory Scoville. No, he doesn't.

[B]

He does look.

[A]

He looks just like Royce. It's cause Rory crosses his Arms.

[B]

He does love to cross his arms like that.

[A]

Okay, that's so funny.

[B]

All right. Okay. So they go, they party in Amsterdam. They bring back a bunch of fucking cheap ass diamonds. So Philip now takes the investors and the mining expert they have selected back to the high mesa, which turns out to be a mountain that is now called Diamond Peak. And I can show you a photo. So it's like that. So you just throw diamonds at that and everyone finds them.

[A]

I mean, so it's amazing.

[B]

Probably really hot.

[A]

It's very cool.

[B]

So Diamond Peak is actually only about 15 miles from the railroad stop. But as I said, he made them walk around blindfolded for days and days. And at this point, one of the cousins has clearly had time to go plant more stones. And once they're there, everybody digs around with pickaxes. Everyone finds diamonds and other precious stones. And so at this point, the investors are like, okay, we believe you and we're ready to give you the rest of the. The money. And at this point, John, the surly, quiet cousin, bows out of the whole scheme and makes himself scarce with his remaining money. He's kind of smart. He's like, don't be greedy. Get it and go.

[A]

Yeah, this can't last.

[B]

So he has about $30,000 left after his romp through Europe. So he skedaddles on $30,000, which in today's money, 1.8 836,000. So that's enough to live off of for the rest of your life. Back then, yeah. Yeah, shit was like a fucking penny.

[A]

A cup of coffee was 3 cents.

[B]

Exactly. And Philip takes his remaining $450,000, which is about 12 million today. His cousin got. He should have got more. And he pretends that he's really upset that he got such a small amount of money. Like, well, I guess you guys bested

[A]

me my field of diamonds.

[B]

So. Well, $12 million. These investors are so stoked, they start, you know, setting up shop. They open an office in San Francisco. They display some of the gems that have been found at this new and mysterious D, thinking it's like the first one in the fucking US but they don't sell any additional interest in the property because they want to keep all the profits for themselves. So they're greedy about it, and you just can't do that. Then a geologist named Clarence King, who would go on to form the U.S. geological Survey, which you're in, my favorite, and who had just finished a geological expedition in the exact same area where this mine was supposed to be, or Supposedly was went into the investors mining expert on a train. Just a coincidence. It's bad fucking news for everybody.

[A]

The odds.

[B]

I know. I mean, well, everyone's a fucking miner back then, right?

[A]

Yeah, I guess that's true. There's a lot of experts because there's a lot of this kind of shit that people are trying to do.

[B]

Exactly. The mining expert had been promised a small share in the land, but he had already sold off his portions. So he actually doesn't give a shit about keeping it a secret, you know, like everyone else does. He tells this guy Clarence all about the diamonds and other precious gems in this one particular area of color. And Clarence, our expert is like, you've gotta be fucking kidding me. Bullshit. He calls bullshit on the whole thing. He had just studied this area. He knows it's impossible that was found. But he has to go see for himself. So he takes the train to the general area he's heard about and asks some local shepherds to tell him where a bunch of random San Franciscans and New Yorkers had been digging lately. Have you seen a lot of dudes lately? Where are they? Where were they?

[A]

A lot of pinstripes.

[B]

Yeah, probably, you know, slip some of 20.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The shepherds point him to the exact spot near Diamond Peak. And once there, Clarence discovers multiple kinds of diamonds that are clearly from different locations. Rubies, garnets, sapphires, emeralds and amethyst. Which as Clarence puts it in a letter to the so called mining expert who really only ever knew about gold. Calls it quote an association of minerals impossible of occurrence in nature. Meaning they don't fucking grow together. Yeah, duh.

[A]

Oh, it's a treasure field.

[B]

They were almost like too greedy our hot guy, because it's like just put the diamonds in there, that's enough, right?

[A]

That kind of like mixing it up and I mean getting people excited. It makes sense for the bag. But then to source them all in one place, it's like I flunked out of college and I know that ain't you knew?

[B]

I mean they're lucky they didn't get caught earlier. He says he finds diamonds in places where it would be impossible for them to be like a tree stump. He had just thrown them around and his assistant even finds a little polished like diamond ready for jewelry use. Like the ones we see in ring which must have been accidentally mixed in with the other stones where they bought them for cheap and then threw them. And it's like, here's a fucking cut diamond. Like this is impossible.

[A]

But also why would they Leave it all behind. Like this is our special thing. Just in case somebody went and checked. It's so weird to me. Cause there is value in those. Yeah. They are mining for stuff. Like, it's not like.

[B]

I think they like left them there. So when those investors come back, they don't realize they've been had. But someone else could have found them at the same time. No, it's very weird.

[A]

I'm a mine that gem field, Right.

[B]

Clarence sends a telegram to the investors at their brand new San Francisco office. He's like, I can't let these guys, you know. He says, quote, I have hastened to San Francisco to lay before you the startling fact that the new diamond fields upon which are based such large investments and such brilliant hope are utterly valueless. That's way to say that. You got fucking face.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And yourselves and your engineer. The victims of an unparalleled fraud. End quote.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So by this point, the new mining company has been huge news. Like this shop they set up, especially in San Francisco. So it's even bigger news when the whole thing turns out to be an elaborate scam. I'm sure so many people were like stoked to read like, it's just gossip mags about miners or about investors.

[A]

Because you know that one of them went down there with this pocket watch in his vest pocket. And it's like, boys, I gotta open this office or whatever.

[B]

He's got those like sock garters on and shit. Diamonds in his sock garters.

[A]

Yeah. Rich guy and all over the place.

[B]

That's right, rich guy. So the story runs in the San Francisco Bulletin and the whole thing just comes crashing down. But by this point, John and Philip are later days, they're gone.

[A]

He shaved that mustache, filled in the hole, it's over.

[B]

They got some filler. Yeah. Ultimately only one of the investors, a man named William, William Lent, he's the only person that's not too embarrassed to try to track Philip down and get some of his money back. Everyone else is so shamed that they don't wanna even make it a bigger deal. They just wanna quietly go away. Yeah, like, I got had, that's the end of it.

[A]

Cuz I think maybe in that business, right, if they get had, then they're just the idiots forever. They can't go back and be like, oh, let's make another deal.

[B]

Totally. No one believes in them anymore. So this guy, William Lent is probably the most motivated since he had bought out several investors and was on the hook at that, that point in Philip's scheme for $300,000, which in today's money,

[A]

I'm gonna say $710,000. 8 million.

[B]

Karen, look how. Oh, wait, What? Oh, what did you say 700? Nope, I said it wrong.

[A]

I said it wrong.

[B]

I heard it wrong. So I don't know.

[A]

You were. So you heard the seven. You're like, we're there.

[B]

I heard what I wanted to hear.

[A]

We got there. I mean, listener, if you've just joined us, first of all, we've been playing this stupid game for 10 years, and I am not a winner of this game. Usually.

[B]

No, you got closer, I think this time than ever than ever before.

[A]

Because usually my brain goes like crazy, and then it's like, say, 52 million.

[B]

I think I've gotten close or correct one time, and then every other time was so far off, it's embarrassing. And I would. I'd be like, these investors and not go after my money.

[A]

Let's put down the hubris around not only in today's money, but all the jewels in our lives.

[B]

Truly. Like my fucking diamond ring that I forgot to put on. Okay. Ultimately, this investor tracks Philip down. He had skedaddled to Elizabethtown, Kentucky, your favorite place to summer. It's so nice where he's back with his family. So he didn't ditch his family. And he's bought 500 acres of land and has opened the first store in town that has plate glass windows. Like, he's got the money to spend on plate glass windows at this point.

[A]

And back then in that era of America, it was all swindlers that opened a store with plate glass windows totally. And built their empires. And it's all on the foundation of lying.

[B]

Your great, great great grandfather that you're so proud of, that set you up for life with a fucking trust fund. He was a scammer.

[A]

He was an absolute human rights exploiter.

[B]

Sorry. Enjoy your money.

[A]

My own grandfather, who was a cop in San Francisco, totally crooked, got rich. Then his wife, the widow, donated all of it to the spca.

[B]

Girlfriend. How much?

[A]

Like, enough crooked cop level amount to be like, oh, we could have lived in. And my mom and I used to talk about it all the time.

[B]

The Kilgarra fortune.

[A]

We could have been a contender.

[B]

Is it the Kilgarra fortune or your mom's side Knight? The Knight fortune.

[A]

The Knight fortune.

[B]

I didn't know that was her last name. That's amazing. K or N? K. That's good. Okay, so plate glass windows. Philip has plenty of cash left when this guy comes after him to Hire a lawyer. And ultimately he settles with lent for $150,000. So half of what he had taken him for.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

And so he still has money left over. And in the end, his net profits from the hoax are $520,000. So essentially, with the lawyer playing with the lawyer paying this guy back, he's got away with about, in today's money, $10 million. Whoa. Done.

[A]

Just worth it. Worth it. Absolutely. He would do it again.

[B]

100%.

[A]

God damn.

[B]

Yeah. After the settlement, Philip decides to open a bank. And this is where ultimately karma comes back to bite him in the ass. Okay, so there are two competing banks in town. And the owners of one of those banks challenges Philip to a duel. They were still doing duels then.

[A]

Great.

[B]

Like say no such a fucking dude thing to do.

[A]

They gotta do.

[B]

Hey, I wanna shoot at you. You wanna shoot at me?

[A]

Yes, I do.

[B]

I think I'm gonna survive it and I think I will. So let's just do this.

[A]

Both dead.

[B]

Philip shoots his competitor in the arm, but the competitor's dueling partner sneaks up behind and shoots him in the back, killing him.

[A]

That's cheating.

[B]

Such cheating. So at the age of 48, in 1878, Philip dies. Philip's cousin and co conspirator John Slack is never heard from again.

[A]

So smart.

[B]

This is why we have to do the ancestry DNA test. I wanna know whose fucking great great grandpa this is in Europe.

[A]

You wanna do other people's ancestry DNA tests?

[B]

I want them to do it, yes.

[A]

Everyone's gotta do it.

[B]

There's some reports that he moved to New Mexico and became a coffin. So if that sounds familiar, your great great grandpa let us know. And that is the story of the Great Diamond Hoax.

[A]

Incredible. I've never heard of that.

[B]

I had neither. And it worked, you guys. Follow your dreams, it pays.

[A]

Follow your diamond cheating dreams.

[B]

Just get a scam, make it good. Leave immediately, get out right before the peak. Wait a second. Should we be listening to our own advice?

[A]

Oh, shit. All right. Well, guys, this has been 10 years. Thanks so much.

[B]

Oh, thanks for letting us get away with this for 10. We appreciate it.

[A]

You know, go find your diamonds. Yeah, but if someone shows you a bag of diamonds and says don't look in here, and then you do. Those aren't real diamonds.

[B]

That's right. But you are. You're the real diamond of this story. Stay sexy and don't get murdered. Goodbye, Elvis. Do you want a cookie?

[A]

This has been an exactly right production.

[B]

Our senior producer is Matt Molly Smith and our associate producer is Tessa Hughes.

[A]

Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

[B]

This episode was mixed by Liana Squillace.

[A]

Our researchers are Marin McGlashan and Ali Elkin.

[B]

Email your hometowns to my favorite murdermail.com

[A]

and follow the show on Instagram at My favorite Murder.

[B]

Listen to My favorite murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[A]

And now you can watch My favorite Murder on Netflix.

[B]

And when you're there, hit the double thumbs up and the remind me button Buttons. That's the best way you can support our show. Goodbye Spring cleaning is all about getting your house in order.

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[A]

You know that moment in the afternoon when your brain stops working and then you start looking for a little treat?

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Yeah, I guess it's less of a moment for me and more of an all day thing, honestly.

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Goodbye.