530 - The Great Guy Law-Time Spectacular Part II

Summary

My Favorite Murder Episode 530: "The Great Guy Law-Time Spectacular Part II"

Hosts: Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark
Guest: Guy Branum
Original Air Date: April 30, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this much-anticipated sequel to 2016’s "The Great Guy Law-Time New Year Spectacular," hosts Karen and Georgia welcome back comedian, writer, and lawyer Guy Branum. This episode celebrates fan-favorite moments from Guy’s previous appearance and dives into listener feedback, legal perspectives, and a deeply-researched true crime story from Guy’s hometown. The show blends humor, heart, cultural commentary, and legal insight, spotlighting the intersection of gender, immigration, community, and the law.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Revisiting a Fan-Favorite Guest (02:09–04:30)

• Karen and Georgia reminisce with Guy about his earlier 2016 appearance, and how significant his episode was for fans. Guy notes how many people have come to his shows after hearing him on MFM, expressing gratitude for the Murderino support.
• Quote (Guy Branum, 02:51): "I wanna thank all the Murderinos who came to my shows."

Evolving True Crime Podcasting & Audience (03:32–04:14)

• The hosts reflect on podcast evolution, deep dives in storytelling, and their smart, engaged audience who love legal intricacies.
• Quote (Karen Kilgariff, 03:34): "I think it says so much about Murderinos that an episode where we talked about the law for like an hour and a half is one of the top episodes we've ever done. And it just says how smart they are."

Guy’s Television Writing & Behind-the-Scenes of "Hacks" (04:25–06:20)

• Guy shares his experience writing for the show "Hacks," including anecdotes about working with Jean Smart and Hannah Einbinder, and the collaborative, craft-driven nature of the show.
• Quote (Guy Branum, 05:10): "She’s so kind and wonderful... we all love those shows where you have female friendship and female contention. That is all of the beauty and complexity of so many relationships that we have."

Guy’s "Jeopardy!" Experience & Reflections (06:22–11:33)

• Guy recounts his game show exploits, his initial loss and eventual win on "Jeopardy!" (Second Chances Tournament), sharing behind-the-scenes stories of buzzer woes, category triumphs, and Ken Jennings’ hosting.
• Quote (Guy Branum, 09:38): "[Ken Jennings is] so clearly disappointed when people don’t know things that they really should know... Just the look on Ken’s face of like, what the fuck, Deuce."
• Georgia and Karen share their own family’s devotion to "Jeopardy!" and their appreciation of Jennings as a host.

Listener Feedback: MFM & Law Influence (15:09–19:16)

• The hosts read moving listener emails, including a woman who credits MFM and Guy for inspiring her to apply to and graduate from law school.
• Quote (Excerpt, 17:59): "[Guy] spoke candidly about the differences between first and second-degree murder, the burden of proof... He challenged their assumptions as a pair and mediated a disagreement about why statutes of limitations exist and are fair."
• Guy reflects on the impact of the show’s influence, particularly the realities and dynamics of legal careers.

Television Cameos & Representation (19:38–22:01)

• Listeners write in about recognizing Guy’s unique voice on TV (“Platonic”), and he discusses small but key roles, including correcting legal language on set due to his law background.

Hometown True Crime: The Yuba City "Gendercide" Case (22:22–57:07)

Setting the Scene (23:04–25:15)

• Guy describes his rural Northern California hometown of Yuba City, marked by a unique demographic blend: white families (often with roots in Arkansas/Oklahoma), Mexican immigrant families, and a robust Punjabi Sikh population involved in agriculture and trucking.

The Crime Story: Baljinder Kaur and the Death of Baljit Kaur (25:16–54:08)

Background and Family Dynamics (25:16–31:58)

• Guy provides cultural context—Punjabi arranged marriage customs, pressures over dowry, and deep-seated son preference. Baljinder, an Indian nurse, enters the US through an arranged marriage and faces escalating mistreatment, abuse, and psychological torment from her mother-in-law, Baljit Kaur, particularly relating to not producing a male heir.
• Quote (Guy Branum, 27:52): "Baljit immediately sent back her dowry. She was like, this is not enough. Baljinder is not enough of a catch to make that dowry worthwhile. She demanded more clothing and jewelry and stuff from Baljinder's parents, who complied. Baljit made her daughter in law do all the housework. She made Baljinder eat meals separately from the rest of the family. And she was not allowed in the living room."
• The abuse escalates after a series of pregnancies, miscarriages, and the birth of daughters. Baljit actively humiliates and endangers Baljinder, including attempts to harm her or induce miscarriage.
• The crisis erupts when Baljit attacks and threatens to kill Baljinder and her unborn child. In a violent confrontation, Baljinder kills her mother-in-law with a hatchet.

Legal Struggles and Self-Defense (31:58–47:47)

• Baljinder, isolated and with limited English, is arrested for murder while seven months pregnant. Initially, she gives a coached confession, omitting details of abuse at her husband’s urging.
• Guy discusses California law on self-defense: it requires both subjective and objective reasonableness for using deadly force. The notion of “battered person syndrome” is touched on but not the focal point in this defense.
• Defense attorney Mani Sidhu, a Punjabi American, innovatively frames the cultural context of "gendercide"—systemic violence and son preference in South Asian culture—as integral to Baljinder’s reasonable fear for her unborn daughter. He calls expert witnesses in Indian culture and language, and ensures a jury composition that can understand cultural nuances.
• Quote (Guy Branum, 41:00): "He could only see this situation through the phenomenon of gendercide... It was something that he wanted to stop. So he put together a defense like no one had ever seen before."
• The episode discusses the backlash from the local Sikh community fearing negative stereotypes, as well as broader anti-immigrant and post-9/11 pressures.
• Quote (Guy Branum, 45:10): "After 9/11, there was a huge increase in anti-Sikh violence...And this case got them so worried about how they were being perceived."

Outcome and Broader Social Themes (47:47–54:08)

• The culturally-embedded self-defense argument is successful: the jury (10 women, 2 men, including a Punjabi woman) returns a verdict of not guilty.
• Quote (Juror Michelle Stru, via Guy, 48:55): "We believe she acted in self defense of her child. We didn't feel her decision was perfect. We felt she was not guilty rather than in."
• Guy compares the prosecutor’s approach (strict legal argument) with the defense’s cultural framing, emphasizing the importance of cultural competence in legal work.
• The story resonates internationally, including coverage in Indian and American Catholic press, the latter focusing on the issue of fetal life.
• Guy contextualizes the case within a pattern of similar incidents and reflects on the constant presence of power imbalances and generational struggles in murder stories.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Law & Murderinos (Karen, 03:34): "I think it says so much about Murderinos that an episode where we talked about the law for like an hour and a half is one of the top episodes we've ever done. And it just like says how smart they are."
• On Immigrant Isolation (Guy, 44:44): "This place is alien. You don’t have resources. You assume even people who speak your language might be inclined to agree with your mother-in-law instead of you… it’s a terrifying situation."
• On Cultural Competence in Law (Guy, 41:00): "He could only see this situation through the phenomenon of gendercide… it was something that he wanted to stop."
• On Legal Defense & Social Change (Guy, 50:50): "That was why I was so fascinated and dazzled by it—he just out-thought this guy in a way that connected with the jury. And that’s both being a good legal mind and a good lawyer."

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Timestamps for Major Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |------------|-------------------------------------------------------| | 02:05 | Episode intro, Guy Branum returns | | 03:32 | Podcast evolution & "Hacks" writing | | 06:22 | Guy's Jeopardy! stories | | 15:05 | Listener highlights: law school inspiration | | 19:38 | Listener: recognizing Guy’s TV cameos | | 22:22 | Hometown murder begins—Yuba City and Punjabi context | | 25:16 | Setting up the murder case—Baljinder & Baljit | | 31:58 | The crime: confrontation and aftermath | | 37:27 | Legal defense discussion—cultural context, self-defense| | 47:47 | Verdict, social/cultural reflection | | 54:08 | Broader themes, similar cases, legal/cultural analysis| | 57:07 | Episode wrap-up, Guy’s current projects/plugs |

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Final Thoughts, Wrap-Up, and Plugs (57:07–end)

• Guy plugs his role in "Stop That Train" (RuPaul’s Drag Race movie), shares fun behind-the-scenes with Charo, and announces his upcoming show "Be Fruitful" at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival.
• The hosts warmly thank Guy for the richness and thoughtfulness of his story, reflecting on how murder cases highlight social issues, generational change, and the gripping human stories at the heart of true crime.

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Summary

This "Spectacular" episode is a masterclass in true crime storytelling with an added legal and cultural depth brought by Guy Branum. A uniquely detailed dive into a culturally complicated murder case, it explores gender, immigration, isolation, and the limits and possibilities of the American legal system. With wit, compassion, and intellectual rigor, Guy—and the hosts—illuminate why My Favorite Murder continues to captivate and educate its audience.

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Stay sexy, and don’t get murdered.

Transcript

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[Karen Kilgariff]

Hello and welcome to my favorite murder.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's Georgia Hardstark.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's Karen Kilgarra. And we have a very exciting extra special guest for you today.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That is right. He's back from one of our listener favorite episodes, episode 49 the Great Guy. Lost Time New Year's Spectacular only nine years.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Welcome Guy.

[Guy Branum]

It's good to be here. I mean so much has happened from my favorite murder since, you know, recording in Karen's living room nine years ago.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Was it my living room? No, it was my living room.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I just hiding. Don't. Karen hadn't much had a house at the time. I had a shitty ass apartment but

[Georgia Hardstark]

that's how long ago it was and we don't remember places. Yes, it was a while and so Much has happened for you since that time.

[Guy Branum]

Yes. But also along the way, like so frequently at shows, I've had people show up and be like, I heard you on my favorite murder. And that's why they showed up. And so I wanna thank you guys. I wanna thank all the Murderinos who came to my shows.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Aw, that's so nice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They definitely love you. We've heard about it. It's such a funny. I mean, we just had a rewind episode where we like go back over an old episode and that episode came up. It came up. Cause you and I were working on talk show, the game show, which must be syndicated somewhere. They must be playing it somewhere.

[Guy Branum]

It's on Apple tv. It was for a brief and glorious on HBO Max.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Was it really?

[Guy Branum]

Yes, but then it went away.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, people should watch it. Cause we did a great job.

[Guy Branum]

We did a great job.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We really gave it our all.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think it says so much about Murderinos that an episode where we talked about the law for like an hour and a half is one of the top episodes we've ever done. And it just like says how smart they are.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And they're like, can we be on topic, please? And George and I are like, no, no.

[Guy Branum]

Well, it is like, it's interesting to like, as the show has evolved, just sort of like the deep dive energy of it and like what it is that is so satisfying about it. And created, let's be honest, the true crime revolution of the last decade. It was on hacks. There was a joke that Madison Square Garden had only been sold out by a live Dungeons and Dragons and a true crime podcast.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Guy Branum]

And I was like, will they think this is an attack? To be clear, it was not my pitch.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's true.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That was.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's not a negative. I don't mind hearing that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We like it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Speaking of hacks, that's what you've been writing on this couple years and a couple seasons now, right?

[Guy Branum]

Yes, it's very fun. It's the last season of the show. And so it was get. It's very rare that you get to land the plane on a scripted show. And that's really satisfying, but also a lot of, you know, responsibility and also just like when you have a show and it's great performers and all of the craftspeople are amazing and everything. Like this year, in the episode that comes out tonight, we just told them, we described a dress to them and then they got to create a dress. Like Rory, one of our costume designers who worked for Bob Goddamn Mackey got to make a playing card dress. And it's like, hello.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Now, can you tell us what Jean Smart is actually like?

[Guy Branum]

I mean, the sweetest and the nicest. Like, I had a very small part in the first season, and it was the first episode that they shot because it was during the pandemic and they couldn't do a pilot. So I was just there in cast holding with Jean all day long, and she was just like, you know, my mask. And she was adoring it, and she just. She's so kind and wonderful. And then Hannah Einmender is somebody who I knew from being a scrappy little comic. And then she has this job and responsibility, and she's so beautifully, like, risen to the occasion and matched her. And, you know, I think we all love those shows where you have a female friendship and female contention. That is all of the beauty and the complexity of so many of the relationships that we have. And to watch them fill that up has been really awesome.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's such a special show. It is so realistic with that relationship that they have that you're, like, rooting for at the same time being like, why are they talking to each other? But also, I want them to be best friends. Yeah.

[Guy Branum]

Well, and it's like, you know, like, you have to have these intergenerational relationships for people to be able to grow and change. And it really is a show about somebody who had the option of not growing and changing and then gets shoved out of her comfort zone. And those are the kinds of stories I like best.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Now, you've also. Because you're a Renaissance man.

[Guy Branum]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You've done other things like, oh, I don't know, gone on to Jeopardy. And won.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What the. You won?

[Guy Branum]

I didn't win the first time, to be fair. Well, but I. I went on and I lost to two people who were, like, multi day champions. And then they were kind enough to have me back for the Second Chances tournament.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Guy Branum]

And then I got to win a game, and it was thrilling and delightful. And, like, the first time, I was, like, emotionally wrecked. I was just like, I had spent the majority of my life waiting to get on Jeopardy. And then I did, and I failed. And then the second time, you know, as everyone does, I ended up losing. But it's like, I got to play so much Jeopardy. I was just happy that I had gotten to play so much Jeopardy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And you knew how to use that button. You know, when you watch people and they're like. And they're trying to complain or whatever, it's like you, I feel like you had it.

[Guy Branum]

But also, I am a middle aged man and it is like I do not have the responses. And I've always been bad at arcade skills, so I was not as on top of it as I want it to be, though. There is like a beautiful world of like, at home. Zoom, Fight Club, Jeopardy. And I'm much better at that buzzer. Like, I'm very. I'm deadly on that buzzer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What was your like category that you were like, I've got this.

[Guy Branum]

Okay. So for me, anytime I see a Jeopardy. Category, I'm like, what is going to be there? And it was fictitious resonances. And I was just like, howards End is gonna be in there. And then I fucking got the daily double. And the daily double was, goddamn Howards End.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Holy shit.

[Guy Branum]

And it was just like, ah, yes,

[Karen Kilgariff]

yeah, yes, that's a moment.

[Guy Branum]

And they were okay. But also, I had a real failure. The daily double that wrecked me was it's alphabetically first of the birthstones. And my mind was immediately in the 1980 World Book Encyclopedia that had listed, like, multiple alternates for every month. I immediately was like, amethyst. But is there anything that could go before Amethyst? And then I stayed in my brain too long and then it went. And then I said, agate. Like an idio. Yeah. I mean, it was like, it was. I had the answer and I should have just run.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Was it Amethyst?

[Guy Branum]

It was Amethyst.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was Amethyst.

[Guy Branum]

I should have just run on adrenaline, and I didn't. And that thing between, like, should you second guess or should you just. Adrenaline is always, you know, it's the roughest. And like, standup is supposed to teach us. You go on the adrenaline.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know, but it's a different. If only it was standup. There's so many other. When I watch it and I watch people who are surprised that other people are as smart as them, there is that vibe of like, how do you know Amethyst? When I'm the one that knows Amethyst, right?

[Guy Branum]

And like, because I was from la, they had me come in as an alternate and I had to watch a full day. And I watched several days where girl categories just went unspent. Like, three boys were like, fashion, I have nothing. And I was just like, give it to me. The day before I was there, the final Jeopardy was about Wicked and no one got it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Guy Branum]

And it was just like, it's a waste. It was gone. The thing is, as I had assumed, I am a Human being who is no longer scared of live television.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Guy Branum]

You know, and I assume that that would help me in some way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Definitely.

[Guy Branum]

And the answer is no. Jeopardy. Is ancient magic. Like, that is not television. It is something else there on the Sony lot. You know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did Ken Jennings affect your performance at all? I feel like him being the end all champion is like a big part of it.

[Guy Branum]

He's so good at the job. Like, he's so good at the job. He knows how to be funny and charming and present and effortless. And he did just in that he is so clearly disappointed when people don't know things that they really should know. And there were a couple, like, there was one time. Goddamn Jeopardy. Guy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Guy Branum]

All they were asking for is for you to say the Moors. And I said the Abbasids. I was trying to figure out, like, I was like, assuming that they wanted the, like, Muslim caliphates from the era that went into Spain.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're going complicated always.

[Guy Branum]

And I did the wrong one. It's the Umayyads.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sure. So shaming.

[Guy Branum]

Just the look on Ken's face of like, what the fuck, Deuce.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Love that guy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Disappointed Jeopardy. Host has to be like, something that you'll carry with you for the rest of your life. I've never seen it. Thank God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Jeopardy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God, no. Cause you have to watch it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A Jeopardy. Host being disappointed in me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh. Oh, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I never will.

[Guy Branum]

But I just want to say we collectively as a community have been cold shouldering Ken Jennings on the best game show host Emmy for like four or five years now. And I think it's time for us to calm down and just show him proper respect.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think so, too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was one of the biggest fights me and my sister got into because my family is a Jeopardy. Family. Seven o', clock, like, for 30 years, whatever. And my sister and I got into the fight when they were running through the different hosts. And I'm like, it's Ken Jennings hands goddamn down. He earned it on the back end. He's now earning it on the front end. What other past champions could come and do that job like that, where he is doing it in the spirit of Alex Trebek, but not. It's a totally different thing. And I can't remember she bought into some other guy where I'm like, now I'm mad at you. And we're like, every night it was a fight.

[Guy Branum]

Well, I feel like Hollywood would respect him more if he went off and did like a light travel show or something like that and showed us. I'm a host. That's not who he is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Now he's on Jeopardy and then he's

[Guy Branum]

what he cares to Seattle raising those kids.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, that's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

have a podcast to do.

[Guy Branum]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh yeah. Okay. So yeah, this was one of the all time favorite podcast episodes when you were on The Great Guy Lawtime New Year Spectacular.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Aired December 28, 2016.

[Guy Branum]

Were we ever singing out?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, almost a decade ago.

[Guy Branum]

I mean a pandemic, like the number of things that have happened, you know,

[Georgia Hardstark]

for real, so many it's hard to

[Karen Kilgariff]

wrap your head around.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But what we thought it'd be fun to do, we have some emails from listeners from the year you were on that we just never answered. And also currently, because we just did the rewind episode and talked about you again. So we just wanted to, I don't know, give you some feedback on your performance. Yeah, well, there's just a lot of he's a national treasure bring him demands to bring him back. And then Chronicles of Kathy writes in, and I think that's Instagram writes in, chiming in with everyone saying bring Ibranim back on. Like it's a demand. And then they're talking about that was because of the rewind. So basically people heard it and were like, why haven't you done this already? Which is great if you know, we love the outside producing. That's always fun.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Bureaucracy runs slow at exactly right media. So it's taken 10 years.

[Guy Branum]

Also, to be fair, at that point in time I was 15 years out of law school and it was a reasonable thing for me to talk about. Now it's an additional 10 years. It's really.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's even fuzzier.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You can fake the whole thing. We don't know we're not Ken Jennings. We don't know the correct answer. Say anything to us, we will shake our heads.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hell yeah. Well, this one is very it was emailed in 2018. It says hi Georgia, Karen and Steven wanted to reach out because you three plus Guy Branham helped me get into law school.

[Guy Branum]

Oh, that's so cool.

[Georgia Hardstark]

During the admissions process, each applicant is required to submit a personal statement, a double spaced two page essay about why you want to be an attorney. My first iteration got a unanimous thumbs down from my friends because the mention of your podcast made me sound creepy. Below is the excerpt I continued my forays into true crime spurred on by the weekly release of the podcast I came to love called my favorite Murder Two with In Their Own Right get together and talk about Interesting Murders with an audience that feels like it was filled with our closest friends, I felt pulled to join the police force or look into going to school for psychology until episode 49 when the ladies invited a guest on the show, Guy Branham, a law school graduate of the University of Minnesota. His responsibility was to correct any of the past liberties taken with the law and how it operated. In the stories discussed, he spoke candidly about the differences between first and second degree murder, the burden of proof falling to the prosecution, and what was necessary for a murder to occur in the first place. He challenged their assumptions as a pair and mediated a disagreement about why statutes of limitations exist and are fair. He just that was a big disagreement. He discussed the law in relation to gruesome crimes in a matter of fact manner, and it piqued my interest. Much like the ladies of the podcast, I had strong feelings about how the law should operate, but no base of knowledge of why or how.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sounds right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In my admissions essay's final iteration, the podcast has a much smaller presence. In the two short pages, application are given to describe their life, their hardships, and their motivations. I felt strongly that MFM could not be left out. Thank you all for inspiring your listeners. Every week your podcast has altered the course of my life. Much love from an Oklahoma girl chasing her dream in Boston. SSDGM Zoe Kent that is so lovely.

[Guy Branum]

Oh my God, that is so touching. Also beautiful to know that Zoe, by this point in time, has a much more like jaded and cold understanding of facts than I could ever hope to have.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Email Update from this week no Kate Schallenbach reached out to say hey, remember when you sent this Email. So she wrote an email back to Kate that said, I am currently a divorce lawyer in Edmond, Oklahoma. I found after two years of misery that practice in the courtroom is not what I'm cut out for. It turns out I'm quite non confrontational for a law school graduate. So my boss, a 76 year old man, war tested in the courtroom, runs the front facing side and I'm his right hand man doing prep work behind the scenes. All. All my best to you and the MFM team. Stay sexy. Zoe.

[Guy Branum]

That's so cool.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She did it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're a law influencer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes,

[Guy Branum]

but also just that thing of like all the real decisions get made outside of the courtroom. You know, the real work is done especially with something like family law where you are having to solve real problems and there is no best. Like it's the best answer, not the right answer. You know, like that's so cool.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Isn't it good?

[Guy Branum]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yay. There's a couple. Yeah, I have a couple of those too. Georgia and Karen. No time for pleasantries. I'm too excited to tell you my celebrity story. It's deeply known among my family and friends that I cannot and will not remember celebrity names, faces or roles. Same. My attempts are considered comedic entertainment when really I tried my best. Tonight, as I start dinner in the kitchen, my husband put on a TV show for us that we recently started watching called Platonic. As the show plays, a realization dawns on me. I yell, I know who that is. And proceed to ask my husband to look up the entire episode cast. Mind you, I wasn't watching the show, only listening. Husband says, you wouldn't know the actor. And I proudly prove him wrong. That's right. It was Guy Branham and his unmistaken voice. I finally guessed a celebrity thanks to your amazing podcast. P.S. episode 47 Live at the Bell House is legendary, partly because Guy is laughing in the audience and it's just the greatest.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, that's right. I forgot about that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Stay sexy and learn your celebrities through MFM collabs. Jenna, she her.

[Guy Branum]

One of my favorite moments is somebody once said to me, wait, were you at Sandra Bernhardt's album taping? And I was like, no, I wasn't. And then I was.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You forgot.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Guy Branum]

Yeah, I didn't realize that she was taping an album when I had been the opening act.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh my God.

[Guy Branum]

But like it is very fun on Platonic. I get to play a lawyer. And the first season, everyone was constantly telling Rose Byrne, you know, Guy went to law school, but also our Second AD had gone to law school and also been a Marine. And she was like, why is no one ever mentioning it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Guy Branum]

Rose is very. And very, very lovely, but she's amazing. I got to do very important work on that show because lawyer shows are constantly saying that people were interns. And you're not an intern when you're a lawyer. You're a summer associate. And I was like, nick, it's summer associate. And he was like, thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I dated. I wouldn't know that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, right.

[Guy Branum]

Oh, and there was also. In the second season. In the second season, one of the characters writes a dumb legal thriller. And they. Afterwards, Nick was like, oh, if you can come up with something better than that. Cause I'm not a writer on that show. Like, this is just what we had as a placeholder. And it was. They had chosen the funniest thing for it to be about. It was about tortious interference with contract. And it was. No one else thought it was hilarious, but I thought it was the funniest thing on the book.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So sexy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can't beat that. Can't beat that.

[Guy Branum]

Can't beat that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, here's what we can't beat, is that we basically tricked you into doing the homework for the show today. Cause we know that you love the show, and we've already done the kind of going over legal stuff.

[Guy Branum]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

At this point, we don't wanna hear

[Karen Kilgariff]

it anymore unless there's any updates you think we should know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah.

[Guy Branum]

Oh, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Guy Branum]

Also, I don't know. The world has changed. Look, our laws have changed in many horrible ways over the course of the last 10 years.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Truly, really have.

[Guy Branum]

They're primarily, to my knowledge, not about criminal things.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. Yeah, that's very true.

[Guy Branum]

But ever since the origin of this podcast, like when you guys were doing hometown murder, I, of course, went with. There was a serial killer from my town. And I did that as a hometown murderer. But I did end up becoming aware of, like, other murders from my hometown. And it is like, the amount of murder that happens in this country is really kind of impressive.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Insane people are always like, when are you gonna run out? And it's like, unfortunately, never.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Never.

[Guy Branum]

Yeah. Cause mine is like a little town, but. Oh, should I go into it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, what's the town? Tell us?

[Guy Branum]

Oh, okay. So I am from a little farm town in rural Northern California called Ubisoft. We grow almonds and peaches and prunes

[Georgia Hardstark]

and walnuts and serial killers.

[Guy Branum]

And serial killers. You know, some meth labs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is that a sister city to Petaluma.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. We share their meth is the same as our eggs, and we ship them to each other.

[Guy Branum]

I'm from about two hours northeast of where Karen is from.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Guy Branum]

There are mountains in between. You know, she is poultry and dairy, and I am nuts and fruits and meth.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And with that we. We have the full environment.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. Yay.

[Guy Branum]

And one of the other interesting things about Yuba City, my little town, is that there's a really old Indian community who emigrated like 100 years ago, like back when India and Pakistan were still a British colony, mostly from a rural farming area in the northern India and Pakistan called Punjab. And there like were a couple of Hindu and Muslim kids in class, but it was mostly Sikhs. It was mostly like people who practice the religion of Sikhism, which is that religion where all the dudes have beards and turbans and all the ladies have braids. And it's a beautiful faith that really teaches that everyone is equal before God. And that's what, you know, regardless of race or gender or anything like that. And that's what it aspires to. But as with any religion, that doesn't always turn out. And that's sort of what the story is about. So over the hundred years that they've been in this country, they've built up really prosperous farms and they truck those fruits and nuts all over the West. And So now like 40% of the truckers in California are Punjabi, about 20% in the Western United States.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I have to stop you really quick because is this why you know so much? Oftentimes when guys on stage doing comedy, you'll do crowd work where people will say, like if people say they're from India or that's their background, then you'll go into that thing where you know the like city states or the counties.

[Guy Branum]

Yes. You see me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Guy Branum]

What language they grew up speaking based on what state they're from? Yes. Like it's, it's. But yeah, I grew up in a town where it was like one third white people who are from Arkansas or Oklahoma, 1/3 Mexicans and one third Punjabis.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So interesting.

[Guy Branum]

And so it's just something I took for granted. And our story begins with a trucker named Jatinder Singh Grewal. He was a long haul trucker in Yuba city. Now before 1965, very racist immigration laws meant that it was very hard for women to emigrate. So pretty much everyone's grandma in that town who is Indian is a Mexican. Mostly they ended up marrying Mexican ladies. But since 1965, it's been pretty standard to arrange marriages with ladies who were from. So in the early 2000s, when Jatinder Singh Graywal was around 30, he went back to his family's village in Punjab because his parents had arranged a marriage for him with a registered nurse in Baljinder Kaur who was in her late 20s. They got married and they did not have a direct conversation with each other until the day after they got married.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Really?

[Guy Branum]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wait, do you know anything about why that wouldn't happen on the day of?

[Guy Branum]

I think because you're doing so much stuff. There's like, you know, like celebration.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're just busy.

[Guy Branum]

Yeah, you're busy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You talk to everybody but the gu.

[Guy Branum]

Yeah. Like a tradition. Have you seen Bend It Like Beckham? Yes, yes. They get mad at her sister and Bend It Like Beckham because she's happy cause she's getting married. And you're supposed to be like sad cause you're leaving your family's home and you're supposed to be sweet and scared by this whole thing. And so all of that business was taking place. And then afterwards they were like, hey, who are you as a person?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Guy Branum]

All right. And then one more piece of background. Cause this gets a little confusing. But six have these very complex naming rules. And so all men have the name Sing, which is frequently used as a middle name, sometimes as a last name, and that means lion. And every woman has the middle or last name Kore, which means princess. And so both of the major players in this story have bee names and their last name is Kore. So focus up. I'll try to keep it from being confusing. The important thing to know is that Baljinder Kaur, the young nurse bride from India, moved to Yuba City into a house with her husband Jatinder, her mother in law Balinda, who was then 63, and her sister in law, Kyunjit. Man. And that's when the shit started going down. When Baljinder arrived in America, her mother in law, Baljit, immediately sent back her dowry. She was like, this is not enough. Baljinder is not enough of a catch to make that dowry worthwhile. She demanded more clothing and jewelry and stuff from Baljinder's parents, who complied. Baljit made her daughter in law do all the housework. She made Baljinder eat meals separately from the rest of the family. And she was not allowed in the living room. Oh, it was a very Cinderella. Baljinder wanted to study nursing so she could get licensed in the United States. But her mother in Law said her job was to take care of the house and have babies. Then in 2007, Baljinder got pregnant. She was excited. She was doing her job. She was providing her family with heirs. Then they found out she was having twins. Even better. And then they found out that the twins were girls and Baljit, the mother in law was livid. So Jaitinder was an oldest son. He was supposed to have an oldest son. Balcinder's sister in law told her that the mom was probably going to strangle her for being pregnant with two girls. I mean, yeah, impossible. And then midway through the pregnancy, Baljinder lost one of the babies and her mother in law rejoiced. She called the dead fetus a pest from hell.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh my gosh.

[Guy Branum]

And said they were lucky the baby had gone back where it came from.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh my God.

[Guy Branum]

Two weeks after having a C section for the surviving baby, Baljinder was expected to resume doing chores for the time. First, Balcinder's daughter was considered an embarrassment so she wasn't allowed to socialize with her cousins. And once Balcinder's daughter was in preschool, she asked if she could spend some time while her daughter was at preschool studying to get her nursing license. And Baljeet said that Balcinder's job was to stay at home and cook and clean. In 2011, Baljinder got pregnant again and her obgyn meningerjeet at wall said that she was always quiet and fearful during her obstetrics visits. And when she maninderjita the doctor told Baljinder that she was pregnant with a girl again, all hell broke loose. Baljit ordered her daughter in law to get an abortion. They were not wasting any more time or money on girls. Baljinder needed to have a boy or nothing at all. According to Baljinder, Baljit would put flour or other slippery things on the floor in the kitchen in hopes that she would slip and miscarry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh my God.

[Guy Branum]

Baljit regularly mentioned that it was no big deal for men to get rid of their wives if they couldn't produce a male heir. And then on October 24, 2012, when Baljit was 68 years old and Baljinder was 38 years old and seven months pregnant, the women were in the kitchen of their home and Baljinder was feeding her daughter breakfast. And both Baljit, this baby's grandma, got mad. She said it was a waste of groceries to be feeding a daughter and yelled, all you do is eat at the little girl. Baljinder tried ignoring her and after the daughter went off to school. Baljinder was studying for her nursing credentials. Baljit came into the room and accused Baljinder of having an affair. The second daughter could not possibly be Jatinder's son. Baljeet started pulling Baljindr's. Baljinder testified that her mother in law said, today is the day we're going to end this. You die or the baby dies. Baljinder snapped. She went into the garage and she found a small hatchet and she walked back into the house with it. By that time, Baljit had calmed down. So Baljinder put the hatchet down. But when Baljinder tried to leave the house to go study, Baljit started yelling at her and jabbing Baljinder's stomach with her glass. Baljinder said she was convinced that she had to do something to save her baby. She later testified, I was blinded at the moment. I was out of my mind. Baljinder picked up the hatchet and hit Baljit in the head with the hatchet seven times.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Holy shit.

[Guy Branum]

Causing four skull fractures. Baljit fell to the ground and Baljinder took Baljit's scarf and strangled her with it. Once Baljinder realized what she was doing, she said she tried to loosen the scarf. There were no witnesses. Baljeet's daughter later found the body around noon. But Baljinder just left. She went and she hid the hatchet in a dumpster at a park. And then she went to her study session with her study partner and basically tried to get her study partner to give her an alibi to say that she had been there when it happened.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So this is a woman who's basically emigrated here, has no family here.

[Guy Branum]

Yes. So she specifically tried to get her family to start the immigration process for her family. And Jatindra was like, no, that's not okay. So this is somebody who doesn't have super confident English, who doesn't have an income of any sort, who's entirely alone in this house and is having to deal with this constantly, every day. And then she just snapped.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Guy Branum]

Yeah. So that night, Baljinder told her husband about the killing. She told him what had happened. And Jatinder said that he was too tired to think about it and that they would deal with it in the morning.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So they had found her already. And they didn't call the police?

[Guy Branum]

They called the police. They called the police, but they were like, we don't know what happened. We don't know anything about this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Then when she admits it to her husband, he's like we'll deal with it later.

[Guy Branum]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So do you think that was just complete denial? Was he like just.

[Guy Branum]

I'm sure it was overwhelming. Like it is just sort of like my mom's dead and like this is what happens. But also it is kind of bonkers to just like it's hard after all of the dismissal that she deals with in this story to not just see it as another dismissal, you know, but

[Georgia Hardstark]

I wonder if that husband, since he's so not present for the other abuse from the mother in law or doesn't isn't doing anything or is basically co signing it.

[Guy Branum]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's almost like does he know that that was wrong and that essentially that's a part of it?

[Guy Branum]

Right. So two days later, Jatinder took Baljinder to the sheriff's department to explain what had happened. But he warned her to not drag his mother or his family through the mud. So clearly he was aware enough of what was going on that he understood that this could be embarrassing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. But also there's a motive that's like don't tell them the motive.

[Guy Branum]

Baljinder confessed to a Punjabi speaking sheriff's deputy, but at her husband's coaching she made no mention of her mother in law's threats or attacks. Baljinder was charged with first degree murder and an enhancement for using a deadly weapon weapon. She was arrested and let's remember she was seven months pregnant.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

Learn more about the Hyundai palisade@hyundai USA.com

[Georgia Hardstark]

Call 562-314-4603 for complete details.

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[Guy Branum]

After this point in time, Baljinder's husband Jatinder drops her. He does not attend any of the trial. He's given her nothing. He and his family are horrified by this murder. So Baljinder is alone in this country, has no close family and court records indicate that she needed translators most of the time. So not a super strong English speaker. She did not have an ally. She was initially appointed a non Punjabi speaking public defender, but her parents from India found a Punjabi speaking defense attorney in Yuba City named Mani Sidhu, a Punjabi American criminal defense attorney, but somebody who had grown up in the United States and lived in Yuba City his entire well, except for law school, there are no law schools in Yupacific.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's shocking.

[Guy Branum]

Now the question of how to defend this case is really really interesting. In California, self defense allows you to resist an unlawful act targeted you or someone else and it says you're allowed to use the level of force required to prevent the offense. But for self defense, in California, as in most states, it is required that a person have an honest and reasonable. That it is necessary to use deadly force to prevent peril to life or grievous bodily injury. So they themselves need to actually have the fear a reasonable person in their place would need. It needs to have the same fear and it needs to be necessary. Baljinder is in a bad situation on multiple counts. She believed that her unborn child was in danger. But it is unclear whether another reasonable person would have had the same fear.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Guy Branum]

It's probably not true that use of deadly force was necessary to avoid it. You know, it's very easy to say she could have just left, she could have just this, she could have just that. And the threat wasn't really imminent. You know, like the question of imminence, what is, what was she gonna do? Is uncertain.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can I ask the fact that she went and got the hatchet and put it there and then walked away, is that like premeditation? Kind of. Yes. Cause if she had gotten the hatchet and done it immediately, it wouldn't have been premeditated.

[Guy Branum]

Like so one of the things about this is it's really interesting that it wasn't defended in that way with an attempt to lower it to voluntary. To some sort of voluntary manslaughter or something like that to say, because like, for a like heightened state, when you have imperfect self defense or like crime of passion, you need that person to be in that state. And you're very right that like it would have been very easy to point to that cooldown. But one could also argue that like the fight's still going on, you know, but like going and getting a hatchet is definitely premeditation and also just the

[Georgia Hardstark]

weapon of a hatchet. Like anytime that's the story. It's just so extreme.

[Guy Branum]

Well, and also that it was fractures and that there's no mention of blood is very fascinating to me because I'm like, was she hitting with the blunt end or the edgy end? But also, is it like if she were a smaller woman? In my head, it makes me think about that hitting in a different way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know, you grab something heavy to defend and your baby is the. Maybe the mentality.

[Guy Branum]

Yeah, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Interesting.

[Guy Branum]

The obvious way to defend this case would have been a thing called Battered Person Syndrome. I think you guys talked about it when you talked about the Francine Hughes case in episode 465. And that's exactly what Georgia is talking about saying That a person was so freaked out they thought the only way out was an act of violence like this. A person is so psychologically distressed by a pattern of spousal abuse usually that it makes the person believe deadly force is the only way to escape. It usually doesn't completely exonerate you, but you get downgraded to some level of manslaughter. But that's not what Mani Sidhu did. His defense was really innovative and I actually called him and spoke to him to understand more about it. Yes, well, the thing is Stanford professors were like, oh, this is really cool, this is really interesting. And I wanted to understand better how he formulated this idea. And it was really cool because as somebody who was a member of that community, when I talked to him he was just like, oh, I didn't formulate it. It was just my immediate reaction.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I love guy doing our job better than we do a just making rolling calls. You're an investigative journalist now, but it's

[Guy Branum]

only like this is a man from my hometown who is the same age as me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not hard to find.

[Guy Branum]

I have 100% been to his cousin's birthdays.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, that's amazing.

[Guy Branum]

He said that when Baljinder's family called him and explained the situation to him, he had two year old twin daughters and his wife was pregnant with another. And he could only see this situation through the phenomenon of gendercide, that is killing children and aborting fetuses to avoid having girl children. He knew that this was a cultural idea that existed in South Asia and that it was an idea that could have affected his own daughters. And it was something that he wanted to stop. So he took the case and he put together a defense like no one had ever seen before. So gendercide is a very significant issue in India and China. In India, because male children stay in the home, they contribute to the income of the family, girls go off to their husband's house, you have to pay for a dowry. Frequently girl children can be seen as an economic burden. In 1984, a UN study showed that of 8,000 abortions from six Mumbai hospitals, 7,999 of them were female fetuses.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's insane.

[Guy Branum]

In 1990, Nobel Prize winning economist Amartya Sen estimated that there are 100 million women who are demographically not present in the world. That is based on birth rates and life expectancy rates. Things are off by 100 million people because of the huge number of girls who should have been foreign or I also believe to some extent were the victims of violence. Mani Told me that he believes gendercide in India is huge and it has trickled out here.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Guy Branum]

Mani wanted to stop it, and his first choice was getting a jury who would understand the problem. So he got a jury that was 10 women and two men, including one Punjabi woman. And Mani says that that woman cried repeatedly during the trial. Mani's defense centered on the idea that Baljinder defending a fetus inside of her was self defense and that a reasonable person who understood the culture of gendercide would understand that threat as imminent. The way he proved it was really kind of strange, though. He called two expert witnesses, Sally Sutherland Goldman and Robert Goldman, who are Sanskrit professors at Berkeley. That's like an ancient Indian language that is used in religious stuff, but nobody speaks. It's like calling a Latin profess to testify about Italian American families in New Jersey. That's very interesting. It's like you come from a town full of like, Punjabi Americans. Why did you think that they were the people who were best able to testify about this? But when I talked to Mani, he insisted that the Goldmans were the right experts because they live in India six months out of the year. In his words, because most of the Yuba City Punjabis have lived in America for generations. The Goldmans are more Indian than we are. He, a South Asian man, not me, was saying that. The Goldmans testified that Baljinder's testimony about her treatment by Baljit was entirely consistent with what we know of similar situations in India and the Indo American community. The Goldmans quoted a 2007 UN study that estimated that 7,000 girl fetuses are aborted in India each day. A therapist who evaluated Baljinder said that she had severe depression and PTSD and quote, the abuse was escalating and she had no way out. She felt trapped and afraid for her life.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's afraid for her life, she's afraid for her children's life, and she has literally no way to get out. Like that thing of when you were talking about the actual exchange, then I was like, people will go like, well, why didn't you just get out? And it's like, what, Run into the street and go where and hope somebody will help you even though you can't speak English.

[Guy Branum]

Like, this place is alien. You don't have resources. Like, you assume that even the people who speak your language and are within your community might be inclined to agree with your mother in law instead of you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Guy Branum]

Like, it's a terrifying situation.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, that is interesting. Why he had the Goldbergs come on. Cause it's almost like they're outsiders and can see the issue in a way that someone who's grown up in that culture, like, wouldn't necessarily see.

[Guy Branum]

The PR of this is a huge thing. Because the other thing to know about the Sikh community in America is that after 9 11, there was a huge increase in anti Sikh violence. White Americans blamed Muslims for 911 and attacked Muslims and people they perceived to be Muslims. And since observant Sikhs wear visible turbans, the men, they'd been subject to a bunch of attacks and murders, including a murder in Arizona, like, not long after 911 and a shooting at a Sikh temple in 2012 that took six lives. Like, when I was. When I was growing up, it was a relatively insular community. You know, all of the communities in my area were. But after 9 11, the way that things changed, the way it became, come to Vaisaki, have some samosas. Like, you know, these fireworks are for you as much as us. And it was about an understanding that communicating what Sikhism was about and positivity was really important. And this case got them so worried about how they were being perceived. Also, to be clear, violence against anyone for their religion is horrible. These six were killed by people who hated a different religion and couldn't tell the difference. So they got this huge PR push. And members of the community, freaked out by what this defense might say about public perception of their community, flooded Mani Sidhu's phone, saying that he was dragging the community through the mud by highlighting gendercide and making it look like abuse by mother in laws was common. Members of the Sikh community stepped forwards with statements about how they had never witnessed such aggression towards anyone who had a daughter and saying their mother in laws dote on their daughters as much as their sons. A prominent Sikh leader from Sacramento, Darshan Singh Mundi, said, I've never heard of a single confrontation over the gender of an unborn child.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But he's talking as a several generation in Sikh American. Right. As opposed to culturally Sikh from India.

[Guy Branum]

Right. And also somebody who is, like, invested in trying to. To show the best side of this community. You know, it's like whether you have great sympathy with Balcinder or great sympathy with Baljit, like, there's the possibility of this looking very, very bad to outsiders.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Guy Branum]

In Yiddish, we call it a shanda firdigojev. You're embarrassing us in front of the gentiles. And this was like such a Punjabi shanda ferdigoyem moment. And you had this, you know, Punjabi American attorney who was Leading it. Who was doing the thing that was embarrassing, but he was doing it because he thought it was the most just and reasonable way of defending somebody who had been in a horrible situation.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Also, can I ask. Cause I. I'm assuming, you know, I went to college in Sacramento, being from Northern California, but Yuba City also being like an agricultural area, that those kind of 9, 11 vibes more intense, or do you think because there was such a large Indian population that there was more balance in Yuba City?

[Guy Branum]

I don't think there was more balance in Yuba City. I think that, you know, it is a rural community with a lot of conservatism and a lot of guns. And I think that there is the awareness in Yuba City of just like you went to high school with these guys, you know, what's going on. But not everybody is directly from our community. You have, you know, you go 10 miles in another direction and people don't understand. And so, you know, hostility and racism that has always been there was even more intense. And it was very sweet to watch these rural community temples, like, taking on this PR problem of like, how do we make people understand who we are?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Guy Branum]

So the trial for Baljinder lasted eight days. And the jury, the 10 women and two men, took a day and a half to come to a verdict of not guilty.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Guy Branum]

One of the jurors, Michelle Stru, said, we believe she acted in self defense of her child. We didn't feel her decision was perfect. We felt she was not guilty rather than in. We could not find guilt based on the law.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that was for first degree. Right. They never lowered it to manslaughter.

[Guy Branum]

No. And that's the thing, is that it would have made the most sense. Like the most straightforward way of doing this is trying to get her eight years for voluntary manslaughter because she had been in a very difficult state. His strategy was basically saying, if you understood this culture the way that this woman does, if you had the same outcome, you would have reasonably thought that this person was going to imminently kill you or the other potential life that was in your body. And that was a big swing, but it was a big swing that worked all the way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is that on the prosecutor for not lowering the charges?

[Guy Branum]

That's interesting.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or is it the prosecutor who would have lowered those charges?

[Guy Branum]

Well, I don't know whether you could concurrently charge with both of them. Potentially you could have offered a plea bargain for that to just agree to it. But it may have been on. That's a really Good point. That it may have been a situation where if. But also that prosecutor did not understand what was going on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Guy Branum]

Like when he was interviewed afterwards, he was like, there was a lot of uncertainty about these details. And I think they thought that she was battered. Something along the lines of saying, I think that the jury thought that she had been the victim of domestic violence. And I think that that prosecutor was seeing it with his law school brain through battered person center and didn't quite understand or counter what Mani Seydoux was doing. And I think he probably would have needed to like bring in some cultural experts to say this was not reasonable for her to be thinking this way. And he didn't even go at that. He was just saying she hit her in the head with an ax. That's murder, ladies and gentlemen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like they were trying two totally different trials.

[Guy Branum]

Yes. And that was why I was so fascinated and dazzled by it. Was he just sort of like out thought this guy and in a way that connected with the jury and like that's both being a good legal mind and being a good lawyer and tough.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, it's like. Cause you're saying only one Punjabi woman was on that.

[Guy Branum]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can you swallow this whole narrative?

[Guy Branum]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can you learn this whole new cultural norm, accept it and then be thinking about this trial?

[Guy Branum]

Yeah. And there is. There is the worry from the Punjabi community that this is. Is a bad cliche of what that community is like. And I understand that uncertainty and that fear, but I also. My sympathy is with Baljinder. You know, my sympathy is with this person who had somebody threatening the life of the fetus inside of them every day. And that's gonna wear on you. You know, Stanford professor Robert Weisberg said this is a fascinating case. The defense accounting for cultural standards and gender sides is plausible and obviously worked. The threats weren't direct. Given what the daughter in law knew about the mother in law's attitude towards female children, it's reasonable to believe that if she was such a horrible, hellish person posed an unusual threat to Baljinder and her unborn baby. In addition to local press, the story was heavily covered by the Indian press for obvious reasons. But it was also heavily covered by the American Catholic press.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, dear.

[Guy Branum]

Because they like the angle that Baljinder was acquitted for murder for defending the life of a fetus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How can we make this about.

[Guy Branum]

Yes. And if it says anything about the truth of Baljinter's accusations, this Baljit Kaur is not the only Baljit Kaur who was killed by her daughter in law after years of abuse. In 2011 in England, a woman named Rajvinder Kaur beat her mother in law named Baljit Kaur shit to death with a rolling pin. I found a bunch of cases between parents in law and daughter going both ways. There was one case where they were like, sure, we'll give you the divorce if you go to these two weddings in India. She showed up to the two weddings in India and they took her out. Um, seeing that stuff for me substantiated Baljinder's fears. Oh. Including a case in Bakersfield, California where a pissed off daughter in law threatened to pull out her father in law's beard and shove it up his ass. And he picked up a revolver and shot her three times and said it was reasonable, she had dishonored him. So that is the story of the murder of Baljit Kaur.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We wouldn't have invited you on if we thought you'd do it better than us. God damn you.

[Guy Branum]

It was so much fun. Like, it really was fun. And it was something that I had found back in the day when I was just sort of like searching around for stuff about Juan Corona, right? And I was just like, this is so juicy. And when you first mentioned it, I was like, oh, yeah, I wanna do that. That woman with the ax, like. Cause in my head, all I remembered was just a lady on a staircase with an ax, which I made up entirely in my head other than the ax.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A staircase. I love that you're doing a case that you're passionate about because of the legal parts of it. So fascinating.

[Guy Branum]

Well, like, the legal parts are so fascinating and the social parts are something that. First of all, everything I'm saying is not what the opinions of Karen or Georgia are my favorite murder. And also we understand very much that, that these are delicate and sensitive issues about perceptions of a community. And I have so much respect for that. But it's also a world that influenced so many people that I loved and grew up with who saw various other flavors and signs of this, like, perception of women that is at odds with the very fundamentals of Sikhism. You know, like Sikhism, there's a cool holiday about one time when all the ladies had to get together and fight a battle. Like, it is very much a religion about everybody is directly equal before God. But in practice, as we know from Judaism or Catholicism or any religion, sometimes that doesn't happen in the culture. And it was really rough and it's horrible that she went through it. And the other Lovely thing is, when I was talking to Mani, we just talked for like 10 minutes and he was like, you know, I gotta call Ball Jinder. And he was just like. And to him, you know, this guy is a criminal defense attorney in Yuba City. He's doing stuff every day. And to him, this was just a thing from 10, 15 years ago that he hadn't really thought about. But I was really impressed by what. What a smart and capable and conscientious attorney he was.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I love that the implications were so obvious to you. And he probably. It didn't even occur to him at

[Guy Branum]

the time he was doing the job.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know, I also love that you buried the lead that there is the exact same murder or like the same name. That's wild.

[Guy Branum]

Well, no, it was really funny because look, there were a couple, like there were some baljinders and it made googling hard because these other things were popping up in their pockets. But it made clear that there was this real, you know, power problem in that relationship that, you know, and I think that's the really cool and interesting thing about looking at the world through murder is like so much of the time it is about a power imbalance that like comes to a head.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It also like that idea that it's generations of immigrants and it's like the first generation is holding the. The old caste systems or the old ways or the old beliefs. And then every generation it changes and it gets. You know, the kids have Adidas tennis shoes and they're using slang and whatever. And it's like that distance is part of what makes America great.

[Guy Branum]

And then it's so funny. I was working on a rom com with a guy who was one of my niece Olivia's community college professors, who is a Punjabi Sikh. And I was describing a situation that occurred with some of the women from like my age and know you. He was just like, it doesn't work like that anymore. You know, it's like times have changed what people. And it was very much about like, gender balance and, you know, perception of women's value. And he was just like, that's not the world anymore guy. And I had to feel old. And then, you know, we had to

[Georgia Hardstark]

adjust the rom com rewrite.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, amazing job.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was incredible.

[Guy Branum]

Thank you so much. It was really fun.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You've done it again.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love it. It was so. Well, you have to come back and do it again. Please.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Guy Branum]

Thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Maybe in six years.

[Guy Branum]

Yes. Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Does that sound good?

[Guy Branum]

Not so long next time. But I just want to say to you guys and to everyone listening how much I have appreciated, in a tiny way, being a part of the My favorite Murder family and have always really felt it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That means so much. Thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We love you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We love you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And that was incredible, by the way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was so great. Let's plug in. Oh, yeah, that sounds terrible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You have some plugs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So your new comedy, Stop that Train.

[Guy Branum]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Tell us everything.

[Guy Branum]

I got a small part in the RuPaul's Drag Race movie. It's very exciting. I play train traffic conductor number one, train traffic conductor number two, of course, played by Charo.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are you serious?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I was.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did you spend time with Charo?

[Guy Branum]

I spent two days with Charo. There's no off position on Charo. Like, she's just. She's never. Periodically. Adam Shenkman would have to be like, hey, quiet down. Because Chara was telling me her origin with the Roma people of Spain. Learning to play the guitar. Like, she's just unstoppable and amazing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And she looks the same. We watched her on, like, television in 1979, and she looks exactly the same.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She dances the same. Like, she's incredible.

[Guy Branum]

Yeah, she was unstoppable, and it was so much fun. But the movie comes out on June 12, and it's very much like Airplane or a Mel Brooks movie. It is very spoofy and fun.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm so excited for that. That's awesome. And then you're also gonna do the Edinburgh Fringe Festival.

[Guy Branum]

Georgia. Thank you for bringing that up. It turns out that tickets are now available for my show, Be Fruitful at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. So if people go to my Instagram and click on the link there if you're gonna be in Edinburgh or the uk, it's a very funny show about fruit and religion and evolution and all sorts of things before it becomes terribly, terribly personal. But I'm very proud of the show. And if you're a Murderino in Britain, please come see me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, congratulations. Getting into the Fringe Festival is a big deal.

[Guy Branum]

It's truly terrifying. It's, like, so enormous, and I'm like, this will destroy me as a person. I'm no longer young, but what a way to go. What a way to go.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I was there last year, and the energy in the city is unbelievable. It's gonna be such an incredible.

[Guy Branum]

What did you see that was good?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I saw a wrestling show that was about a medieval romance. Oh, yeah. It was incredible. Yeah.

[Guy Branum]

I mean, the thing I'm most excited for is just to get to be there and, like, deal with the personalities and see the stuff that isn't the same time as me and be in it all.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You have to go to the Frankenstein bar. Oh, right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is that the one where, like, they

[Karen Kilgariff]

do the whole Frankenstein.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's alive. It's alive.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The bar that's, like, Frankenstein themed.

[Guy Branum]

I had no idea. That sounds very fun. Well, I am like, well, if I'm there for a month, I kind of have to be an irresponsible child who's pretty much just drinking and having a good time and making friends.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This can.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's called a can. You have to also. We got platonic. We got hacks. We covered the fun things.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, I'm clearly. We have a professional writer coming in to play our game with us. Thank you so much for saying yes to this. We love you so much.

[Guy Branum]

Thank you. And also thank you for going on a ride to my hometown and the weird specificities of that. Cause that part was really, really fun.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think we all learned something, everyone.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A lot.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, amazing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Thanks, guy. And thanks, everyone for listening and hanging out and.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And we're gonna wrap it up by saying, stay sexy and don't get murdered.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye. Goodbye, Elvis, do you want a cookie?

[Georgia Hardstark]

This has been an exactly right production.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our senior producer is Molly Smith and our associate producer is Tessa Hughes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This episode was mixed by Liana Squillacci.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Our researchers are Maren McGlashan and Ali Elkin.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Email your hometowns to my favorite murdermail.com

[Georgia Hardstark]

and follow the show on Instagram at. My favorite murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Listen to my favorite murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And now you can watch my favorite murder on Netflix.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And when you're there, hit the double thumbs up and the remind me buttons. That's the best way you can support our show. Goodbye.

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