534 - Think About the Simulation

Summary

My Favorite Murder: Episode 534 – "Think About the Simulation"

Released: May 28, 2026 | Hosts: Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

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Episode Overview

In this tenth-anniversary episode, Karen and Georgia celebrate their enduring chemistry and hallmark blend of true crime, history, and comedy. They share stories ranging from the inspirational and harrowing life of Dr. Haing S. Ngor—an Oscar-winning Cambodian genocide survivor and activist—to the quirky, little-known tale of Henderson Luelling, “the Johnny Appleseed of the West” whose utopian commune dreams ended in spectacular failure. Reflecting on gratitude, resilience, and the unpredictability of life, the hosts maintain their characteristically candid, humorous tone while weaving in broader reflections on survival, trauma, legacy, and the course of human events.

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Key Discussion Points & Episode Highlights

Introduction, Gratitude & Podcast Reflections

• Start: 02:25 – 07:57
• Karen and Georgia kick off with humorous banter about podcasting as a job, reflecting on appreciating the present, referencing the "hot dog phone," and keeping perspective in challenging times:
  • “How do we celebrate what we have now that's right for me? …If I took a time machine back to today, because the apocalypse has happened, I'm gonna look at everything and be like, wow, I was so lucky to have these things…” – Karen (03:02)
  • “So just pretend you're from the future… which is a dark, terrible place. Or not.” – Karen and Georgia (03:33)
• Discuss their friendship and podcast dynamic, noting the show’s origin as two near-strangers discovering each other—and their audience—together (07:06).
• They explain the show's tradition of naming episodes after silly in-episode remarks—an “Easter egg” listeners can hunt for (08:34).

Simulation Theory & Easter Eggs

• 07:57 – 10:00
• Georgia shares an anecdote from researching a time-travel show, referencing scientists’ responses to simulation theory:
  • “If it's a simulation, it's so good we don't know… then go to the beach and then think about the simulation. Okay, go now. Okay.” – Georgia (09:32)

Animated Short Watch-Along

• 10:01 – 14:10
• The hosts watch a new "MFM Animated" short by Nick Terry, based on a listener-submitted story about a Dramamine-overdosed boat trip to Alcatraz:
  • Animated story sparks nostalgia about childhood ways of being carried to bed (“fireman's carry,” “sack of potatoes,” “horse”).
  • “That’s her way. She woke up at the end of all that and was like, hey, that is the cutest thing I’ve ever seen.” – Karen (12:54)

Network & Merch Highlights

• 14:10 – 16:10
• Quick run through of other Exactly Right podcasts and latest MFM merch (“Fuck You, I’m Married” joggers).

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Main Story #1: The Life and Death of Dr. Haing S. Ngor

• Karen’s Story | 20:20 – 47:52

Background & Context

• Karen shares her drive to tell this story, rooted in personal interest and the Dead Kennedys song “Holiday in Cambodia,” which led her to study Cambodia’s history and the horrors of the Khmer Rouge.
• Dr. Haing S. Ngor was a well-to-do Cambodian doctor and later an Oscar-winning actor (“The Killing Fields”), who survived the genocide and became a prominent human rights activist in the US.

Cambodian History Primer

• Brief overview of French colonialism, the Vietnam War’s impact, the American bombing campaign, and the rise of Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge.
• Notable Quote:
  • “Once you've been to Cambodia, you'll never stop wanting to beat Henry Kissinger to death with your bare hands…” – Anthony Bourdain, quoted by Karen (25:54)
• Khmer Rouge’s Year Zero: elimination of intellectuals, forced labor, starvation; horrors including mass torture and executions.

Dr. Ngor’s Survival & Loss

• Haing escaped execution after lying about his identity as a doctor—“He can't tell anyone he's a doctor…”
• Endured torture, starvation, and the death of his pregnant wife and unborn child, forced to conceal his skills to survive.
  • “Hoy dies in his arms, and the baby dies, too. After Hoy dies, Hang actively tries to get killed. He just doesn't give a f—k…” (33:23)
• Eventually escapes to Thailand with his niece, Sophia; volunteers as a doctor in a refugee camp before immigrating to LA.

Acting and "The Killing Fields"

• Discovered by a casting director for “The Killing Fields” and cast as Dith Pran, channeling real trauma into a groundbreaking performance.
• Wins the Oscar for Best Supporting Actor as the first person of Asian heritage to do so—arrives barely on time, gives memorable speech:
  • “This is unbelievable, but so is my entire life…Let the world know what happen in my country. And I thank God, Buddha, that tonight I'm even here.” – Haing S. Ngor Oscar speech, paraphrased by Karen (41:18)

Activism, Murder, & Aftermath

• Becomes an outspoken critic of the Cambodian government, testifies before Congress, and works to raise international awareness.
• Tragic Death: Ngor is murdered in 1996 outside his LA apartment—circumstances and motive remain controversial; initial robbers are convicted, but speculation persists about a political hit.
• Final quote from Dith Pran:
  • “He's like a twin with me. He's my co messenger and right now I'm alone.” (46:00)
• Legacy: Ngor’s bravery, activism, and the complicated search for justice.

Memorable Moment

• Karen and Georgia’s reflective exchange on generational trauma and survival:
  • “The fact that we're alive means there was also generational, like, chutzpah…so we have generational trauma for sure. But we also have whatever the f—k it was, the chutzpah that kept them alive, too.” – Karen (35:09)

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Main Story #2: Henderson Luelling & the Harmonial Brotherhood

• Georgia’s Story | 52:01 – 83:41

Introduction to Henderson Luelling

• Georgia’s pivot from genocide to a lighter but still wild story:
  • “I don't want to surprise you, but this is also based on the dead Kennedy song. [It’s actually] the complete other end of the spectrum.” (52:01)
• Luelling is a Quaker-born pioneer/horticulturalist—the “Johnny Appleseed of the West.”
• Origin story: successful fruit nurseries, stops on the Underground Railroad.

Early Success, Pioneering, and Moral Conviction

• Moves from North Carolina to Indiana (anti-slavery Quaker migration), then to Iowa, then to Oregon by covered wagon—famously hauls 700 fruit saplings west against all advice ("It was an insane plan with little chance of success. Everyone mocked him for it. He did it anyway." – Georgia quoting Heather Arndt Anderson, 59:23).
• Luelling’s orchards help shape the Pacific fruit industry; his house becomes a recognized stop on the Underground Railroad.

The Quest for Utopia

• After the death of his wife, Luelling drifts toward the era's fringe utopian and spiritualist movements—vegetarianism, free love, and spiritual experiments flourish.
• He joins or establishes the “Harmonial Brotherhood”: a group aiming for a communal, free-love vegetarian utopia.
• Buys a schooner and a Honduran island (“Tiger Island”) in a bid for societal rebirth.

The Voyage/Fiasco

• The ocean journey devolves quickly: food shortages (“Egg War”), sexual jealousy, infighting, and squalor.
  • “God wants me to have the eggs…At this same meeting, Dr. T vows to get revenge over eggs.” (74:09)
• Deaths from fever and failed amateur “hydropathy” medicine; Dr. T dies after splitting to form a rival clique.
• The experiment collapses; the remaining commune members slink back to the US in humiliation—Luelling lives out his days under a pseudonym.

Legacy & Reflections

• Despite his commune fiasco, Luelling’s family—especially his brother Seth, who develops the Bing cherry—continue to impact American agriculture.
• Georgia and Karen reflect:
  • “Bring the bacon and you won’t fight so much about the eggs.” (80:02)
• The story ends with a nod to the unpredictability of life, resilience, and the enduring results of ambition and failure.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The killing fields isn’t bad enough, suffering enough, bloody enough.” – Hang S. Ngor, quoted by Karen (45:19)
• “The world knows what happened in my country.” – Ngor, Oscar speech (41:18)
• On community and trauma:
  • “Generational trauma…means there was also generational, like, chutzpah…for every day.” – Karen (35:09)
• On utopia and failure:
  • “It was an insane plan with little chance of success. Everyone mocked him for it. He did it anyway.” – Georgia (59:23)
  • “God wants me to have the eggs.” (74:09)

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | |------------|-----------------------------------------------------| | 02:25 | Episode introduction, podcast and friendship talk | | 09:22 | "Think About the Simulation" discussion | | 10:01 | Animated Dramamine story watch-along | | 14:10 | Network and merch highlights | | 20:20 | Main Story #1 (Haing S. Ngor) begins | | 46:58 | Main Story #1 concludes, reflections | | 52:01 | Main Story #2 (Henderson Luelling) begins | | 79:28 | Luelling’s utopian experiment ends | | 83:41 | Episode wrap-up and closing thoughts |

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Key Takeaways

• Survival and activism: Dr. Haing S. Ngor’s story is a testament to the depths and endurance of the human spirit, the horrors of authoritarianism, and the vital importance of testimony and activism.
• Historical oddity meets comedy: The tale of Henderson Luelling showcases how ambitious, idealistic dreams can end in absurd disaster—yet still leave an unlikely positive legacy.
• Legacy and perspective: Both hosts urge listeners to appreciate the unpredictability and variety of life, emphasizing gratitude, the power of remembrance, and the value found even in failed experiments.
• Signature MFM blend: The episode encapsulates the true crime/comedy/historical blend that’s defined the podcast for a decade.

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Stay Sexy and Don’t Get Murdered!

Transcript

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye, Goodbye,

[Georgia Hardstark]

My favorite love. Hello and welcome to my favorite murder. That's Georgia Hardstark.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's Karen Kilgarra.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No pointing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah, sorry.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's against the rhymes. I was the only one doing. Pointing is rude pointing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Don't ever stop it. How are you?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm good. I'm grateful to have the job of podcasting today.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Same?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yep.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Why specifically today?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know. It's just a really nice life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It is. Vince and I were talking about how it's democracy's gonna be over soon. So, like, how do we celebrate what we have now that's right for me? I tell my therapist that when I'm really bummed, I think about if I took a time machine back to today. Cause the apocalypse has happened. I'm gonna look at everything and be like, wow, I was so lucky to have these things and to be able to talk to these people and to do these.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We have a hot dog phone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

To have freedom to have a hot dog phone. So just pretend you're from the future.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Which is a dark, terrible place.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or not.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or Rule of six, what's that? Dark, terrible place. And five other options.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Gotta do five other options every time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My therapist does it like this though. She puts her hand up and then goes, this is dark. This is dark. Terrible times. It also could be neutral times.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It could be very bright and shiny times.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly the same.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It could be like we're all working at Macy's all the time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Weird but doable.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I could have a desk job. CV Richard Ellis investors.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You could come back.

[Karen Kilgariff]

One moment, please.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So quickly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

CV Richard Ellis investors. I can't pay my rent. One moment, please.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Now there's your podcast. I mean, you've always worked in the voice area. Clearly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That was your early training.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And mine was reading aloud in sixth grade, which was my favorite thing to do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, you love to be called on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cause they would just go up and down the road. There's no way. We haven't talked about this, but I would just. I would go pick out the paragraph that would be mine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Practice it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Practice. Not too much, not too little.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So you didn't know. You didn't know. Listened to what?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not a word.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You knew what was.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That was none of my business. I was on that. My paragraphs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

See, that's why that's. Yeah. And you killed it every time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I was very proud of my reading skills.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah. Nice and smooth. No trips.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Janet. For every. Every bad thing she did, she fucking.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She taught you to read.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She taught me to read. Real, real good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The basics. She covered those basics. Three hots and a cot and a book that you could actually read for yourself. Belated birthday.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Happy birthday. I just plopped a fucking little gift wrapped gift in front of Karen for her birthday.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I will tell you listener. It's heavy. It's wrapped in gorgeous.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so you wrapping. I saw it. It's from Etsy. Right. Tell them what it is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It is a Diet Coke ashtray, ladies and gentlemen. It is so beautiful. Looks like hand painted. But then underneath some clear.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It is read the the maker on the back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, the maker is ware w a r e your snacks.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And so she has. You can get that in like mine would obviously be. It's a potato chip with creme fraiche and caviar on it. Oh, you can get Hot dog. You can get.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mine would obviously be. Who are you? Who are you? Orange County?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That is my caviar is like my like favorite.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mine would obviously be a gold bar, cottage cheese or cav.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know why it's just like so.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But it's basically looking at something that makes your mouth immediately water or makes your thing go, that's my jam.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's your identity. So Diet Coke. A can of Diet Coke. I saw that and I was like, I have to get that for Karen. It could be a catch all. You don't have to ash and you don't have to take up smoking.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, but I have to. Now that you've given me this, you've required it. And I'm gonna go right back to the capris. They're thin. Oh, sure. They're easy to smoke.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ladies and gentlemen, look up 1988's Capri cigarettes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you so much. That's a perfect gift.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Now I have a gift for you that I realized the last time we talked about birthday gift giving. You were like, it's not my birthday yet. But I was like, oh, just we're gonna give each other a gift at the same time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I like an in between thing. Cause our birthdays are like almost a month apart. Yes. So yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A month and a decade.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A month and a decade.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow. Almost exactly 10 years apart.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're a generation apart.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think that's the hook of this podcast. No one's caught on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's true.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's like old and young.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know what I was thinking about too is like the fact that we started this podcast when we barely knew each other. So we were getting to know each other at the same time the audience was getting got to know us. That way. If we had already known everything about

[Georgia Hardstark]

each other, it would all be facade.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So I think that's the secret sauce. Oh, I hate that term.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, should we call it the thousand island dressing of our souls? I agree. And I also think that we kind of knew it, but we also didn't know it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think we both had that. Like, we're grabbing hands and jumping off this cliff, which other people wouldn't have done. Totally And I think so. There was a feeling of that. Just discovering this now, but the feeling of that. Of like, she's up for this. Whatever this thing is, she's up for it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. I'm game.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Thank God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank God. And that's. And that's this podcast. Well, thanks for listening.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye. This is our way of saying we quit. We both walk out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's it. Fade to black.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Also, just point out that it has been 10 years, but the last time we recorded our episode was almost two hours long.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So the idea when people are like, aren't you gonna run out of stuff? It's like, you would think we would.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Today I'm doing this story that, like, 10 years in and I'm finally doing this story that means so much to me. It's not like I found the story and like, another one. It's like, they can still be so important and meaningful and shit. Unfortunately, there's just a never ending.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. There's bad parade of this parade of humans.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. That's the name of the episode. Oh, that's right. I wanted to ask everyone if they know that we name every episode after some ridiculous thing we say in the episode. And that's like, obvious to everyone. But I was like, what if they don't know that? So, like, you gotta find the moment we say the dumbass thing that we name the episode. It's like a little Easter egg.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then everyone knows.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then if you figure it out, we'll send you an Easter egg in the mail. Just one jelly bean from this last Easter. They smell really bad. But that's your gift.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know, when we planned this show, there was all kinds of futuristic technical Easter egg type thinking that we put into it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Totally. We love Easter eggs.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're like a. But so real.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, this is a simulation. How could it not be?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'll tell you the thing that the physicist said when I worked on the time travel show and somebody asked. That was the first question we asked. And he said, it doesn't matter.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Come on. That's not what I was expecting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because if it's a simulation, it's so good. We don't know you're right. Or we're just catching on. But if it's a good enough simulation that we don't know, then that idea that, like, I'm stuck in the back rooms or whatever people get online about and weird in their head, it's like, it's better than that. Go to the beach and then think about the Simulation. Okay, go now. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, oh. Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh. Oh, shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wait a second.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, first fucking new MFM animated.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God. That's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I haven't watched it yet. Have you?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Neither of us have seen this and so we thought it'd be fun to show you at the same time as we are seeing it for the first time ourselves.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our friend Nick Terry, by his own free will.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Makes these incredible animations based on some dumb fucking thing that we've said. This is mini sub 478. It's called Dramamine. Let's if you're not watching it on Netflix, please do or go look it up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And now we're going to watch it for the first time right here. It was summer of 2005 and I was 8 years old when we took a family vacation to Yosemite and San Francisco. While in San Fran, we got a boat tour that took us past Alcatraz and to some other island close by.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What is that? Marin?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't remember there being a two island stop for the Alcatraz tour, but

[Karen Kilgariff]

I haven't been there since Alcatraz 2.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's smaller and hipper and there's a disco. There's an amazing nightlife on Alcatraz too. Okay. My dad was really nervous that I was gonna get seasick, so he gave me three Dramamine and we boarded the boat. Turns out that the serving size of Dramamine for an eight year old is half a pill. So I was knocked the fuck out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hell yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My dad happens to be a fireman.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it says he's retired now. This is so classic. So he walked around the island, Alcatraz, with my sleeping 8 year old body thrown over his shoulder in a fireman's carry. So can I just stop here to tell you, this is the dad life thing I will ever tell you, which is that at night when we were little, my dad, you could do the fireman's carrying, you could do sack of potatoes, or you could ride a horse to bed. Those are the three ways we got carried to bed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And you gotta pick which one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's so cute.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So fireman's ear just bent over his shoulder. Sack of potatoes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's holding you by your ankles and you're behind. Oh my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But then the horse, you got on back and you put your hand over his mouth to feed the horse and he ran down the hallway and threw you on the bed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can he do it now? Can I have that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, that might be the greatest.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Privilege.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Having a Firefighter dad. Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So that's. I think this one gets me, especially because he just basically, like every fireman's like, we're just gonna solve this problem just fucking okay. So he would occasionally stop and wake me up to eat ice cream and drink water with my eyes closed. My mom and brother took normal pictures and occasionally included me. Weekend at Bernie's stuff.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I can see you have a picture. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's the best picture, too. The only thing that I actually remember about that day is waking up on a park bench next to a do wearing sunglasses.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, she's awakening. Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's her way. She woke up at the end of all that was like, hey, that is

[Karen Kilgariff]

the cutest thing I've ever seen.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, what a joyful thing to have.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I completely forgot that we knew what that little girl looked like. That's why the headband was so funny to me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It looked exciting. We have an actual photo of her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, that was from Lizzie originally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Lizzie, I hope this is bringing you so much joy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You now have a character in the Nick Terry MFM animated universe based off

[Karen Kilgariff]

of you as a child. Like the real photo of you. God, that's so special. I love it so much.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So good. That was so funny.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I was wondering if your dad was gonna throw me over his shoulder. That would've been rad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, that's right. To give you what you wanted. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cause I was like, can I do it? And Jim was like, no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I only have this one thing, which is the funny interpretation. As I saw it, you rode the horse kind of like a monkey on his back, so he had your legs in his arms.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ok.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It wasn't because if you ran down a hallway on your dad's shoulders, I think slammed into the door jam. But not to criticize after the fact.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That was a joy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sure. Can we edit? Can we get that edited?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Stan, our first round of notes have this to say. No. Nick, Terry, we love you so much. Thank you so much.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What a joy. So good. Okay. Should we do network highlights?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Podcast network. It's the fucking best. Only cool people like you wouldn't even believe it. So it's called Exactly Right Media.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Here are some highlights, and one of the that is on this network is called the Knife. We love it. Hannah and Pasha continue their unbelievable story of Paul Fronczak, who was kidnapped from a Chicago hospital as a newborn in 1964. In this episode, as he digs deeper into his identity, he uncovers secrets that completely rewrite the story of his life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So wild.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then over on this podcast, we'll kill you, Aaron. And Aaron just keep bringing it. How do they even think of these things this time? They tackle motion sickness just to go along with that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

MFM animated, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Tell me everything from boats to planes to the world's grossest historical cures. Yes, they break down why our brains and bodies completely betray us. And me while traveling.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because you take three pills instead of half. And on this week's that's Messed Up, Kara and Liza recap episode 18 from season seven of Law and SVU entitled Venom. And their special guest this week is Joe Grifisi.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Plus, over on Ghosted, Raz is joined by drag queen and comedian Juno Burch.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then just really quick, over in the merch corner, the fan favorite married joggers. Fuck you, I'm married. Are officially back just in time for wedding season.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right, grab a pair for yourself, your partner or your favorite legally bound [e-mail] and don't forget, you can watch brand new episodes of My Favorite Murder and Buried Bones every week on fricking Netflix.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Here we are.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Have you seen yourself? Have you like been scrolling and just suddenly there's your face or there's laughs.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Podcast on the left's I came home to my own face because while I was away, my dog sitter put on the podcast video for the dogs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right? To see if it would help dog

[Karen Kilgariff]

sit, we put on reggae. Cause we heard that dogs like chill out reggae. Yeah, but I should put my own fucking voice on. Although Cookie loves Vince more than me, so we should put on his podcast.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, that's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's gonna be like, this bitch is still here. Where's my reggae?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Telling me what to do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Tell Bob Marley.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

And the Palisade Hybrid comes with an available class exclusive dash camera feature and available class exclusive blind spot view monitor

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

Need more? You've got standard 100 watt USB C ports to keep every device powered and

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

Learn more about the Hyundai [e-mail] Call

[Georgia Hardstark]

562-314-4603 for complete details.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye.

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[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye. Okay, you're first, I'm first.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And wow. Okay, so I've been studying up until like, while I put my makeup on till the minute that I left the house.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Love it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

When we were in high school, we spent a day or two in history class learning about Vietnam. Right? Like, yes, the basics sure breezed over. It moved on with our lives. This is it sounds like a brag, but it's not. So I was really into the band Dead Kennedys, and because of that, they sing about a lot of historical stuff. So I was really into that band. And then I would go look up the things they were singing about. And one of those things.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Pol Pot.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly. I literally was like, mom, what's Pol Pot? Yep. Turns out. And the song is called Holiday in Cambodia. So I learned a bunch about it. I was really into Vietnam. I read the book the Killing Fields. Watch the movie.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And through the Dead Kennedys music, Basically they kind of like made you go, what is this about? Why would they be singing exactly that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, they also have a song about who was shot in San Francisco.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Harvey Milk.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Harvey Milk. Like, they just. You learn about shit you wouldn't know. So, Pol Pot, Cambodia. Let's start here. Okay. It's a Sunday in late February 1996, and we're in Los Angeles Chinatown. It's about 8:45pm and residents hear something that sounds like firecrackers, then make a horrifying discovery in the garage of a small apartment building. Neighbors find the body of a beloved fixture in Los Angeles's Cambodian community and in the Cambodian community worldwide. He had been shot getting out of his car and what police will ultimately decide was a robbery gone wrong. But this will remain up for debate. The reason for this is that the man who had been killed had been a vocal critic of Cambodia's government and a survivor of the genocidal Pol Pot regime. And just to give you some numbers, that led to the deaths of an estimated 1.5 to 3 million people, which was a quarter of the country's population.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This man had been a doctor, a forced laborer, a refugee, a community advocate, and in a surprise turn, an Oscar winning actor. In fact, he was the first person of Asian heritage to win the award.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

May is Aapi Heritage Month, and this is the story of the amazing life, brave actions and tragic death of Hang Noir. Wow. The main source for the story is a documentary called the killing fields of Dr. Hang s Noir. Fucking can't recommend it enough. It tells you so much information. Also, you should watch the Killing Fields. It's incredible. He plays a Cambodian journalist, you know who I'm talking about, like the main character, basically. So the rest of the sources can be found in the show notes. I've been wanting to do this story for so long, but I just wanted to make sure I did it right. And I really want to thank Ali Elkin, my researcher, for doing such an incredible job of putting this together for me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nice.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hang Noor is born into a reasonably well to do family in Cambodia. His father has several agricultural businesses, owning both rice fields and lumberyards. He's born in 1940 and his family lives in the countryside. So they are just living this tradition that their families have for generations in the agricultural business. They're not really far out from Phnom Penh, the capital city, but their life is just kind of a peaceful everyday life. For all of Hang's life, there is some degree of political unrest in Cambodia, and all of it is stirred up to varying extents by Western colonialism. So he's born under French colonial rule in a land that is still called at the time, French Indochina, which also includes modern day Laos and Vietnam. And throughout his childhood, there's a guerrilla effort to overthrow the French colonizers. Hang's family at times is caught up in the middle of this. His parents had been kidnapped for ransom by corrupt members of both sides of this conflict. On multiple occasions. So that's what everyday life is like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Multiple kidnappings, horrifying.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Part of the reason for this is that Hang's father is ethnically Chinese and his mother is part of the Cambodian ethnic majority, which is the Khmer. So they are each victimized in turn for different reasons. But this is ultimately a low level inconvenience in comparison to what happens later in Cambodia's history. As a teenager, Hang moves to Phnom Penh to try to shelter from all this unrest in the countryside. He's very, very smart, like, top of his class. He eventually goes to medical school, and while he's there, he meets a fellow student named Hoy and she's training to become a teacher and they fall in love. This is so truncated. Yeah, the documentary is incredible. Hang becomes a gynecologist. And in this time period, Cambodia becomes independent and under the leadership of a monarch who then becomes an elected leader. And at the same time, in the late 60s and early 70s, the Vietnam War begins. And eventually the United States conducts a brutal bombing campaign on parts of Cambodia along the border with Vietnam. And so Ali added this famous quote in the research from Anthony Bourdain that says, quote, once you've been to Cambodia, you'll never stop wanting to beat Henry Kissinger to death with your bare hands. You will never again be able to open a newspaper and read about that treacherous, prevaricating, murderous scumbag sitting down for a nice chat with Charlie Rose or attending some black tie affair for a new glossy magazine without choking. Witness what Henry did to Cambodia, the fruits of his genius for statesmanship, and you'll never understand why he's not sitting in the dock at the Hague next to Milosevic, end quote. As in fucking war crimes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Everybody knows this already, but I just wanna say it again. The loss of a mind and a spirit like Anthony Bourdain, where he is a speaker of truth to power in that way, there's not enough guys like that anymore where they're like, no, fuck you and the truth times 20.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, like, this might hurt my career.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, but, but I'm actually. This is actually. Yes, exactly. This is what we are supposed to be doing here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Totally.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Why are we pretending that this isn't disgusting?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly. So thank you to Allie for including that. So with this in the background, in 1970, when Hang is 30 years old and a practicing physician and he just has this like kind of normal life, he's got friends, he's got family, he's got this girlfriend he loves, he's a Doctor he has this mentality that everything is fine and the warring is going to come to a truce. And like, so many people just pretends like it's not going to affect him and doesn't pay attention to it at all at this place. This is when Cambodia's government is overthrown in a coup. So Cambodia's prime minister is a man named Norodom Sihanok. And he had originally been appointed king by the French and then led Cambodia to independence and abdicated his position, then was elected by an overwhelming majority. So people seem pretty happy with this. But then he goes out of town and there is a coup that is orchestrated by two government officials who are his opponents. And they only had support from a small minority of Cambodian elites. But some believe they were aided by the Americans. Probably true. So these officials take over. They allow the Americans to invade the southern border with Vietnam to force out North Vietnamese fighters. And the influx of American money into Cambodia ushers in a time of prosperity for some, including Hang's father, who buys a second lumber mill. But in the countryside, poorer and more rural Cambodians are coalescing their support around Sihanouk, now in exile in China, who has always been, he'd always been beloved. People believed that he was appointed by God or that he was a God. And behind this unlikely ally to the countryside and poorer Cambodians is the leader of Cambodia's Communist Party, Pol Pot.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Here we are.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Here we are.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This group becomes the Khmer Rouge. They are actually ethnically Khmer, and then Rouge, I think, means red, right? So red is communist. Hey. So in 1975, the Khmer Rouge, under the leadership of Pol Pot, but with the encouragement of Sihanouk, marches into Phnom Penh and deposes the new government. They take over. The regular Cambodians who are there are kind of rejoicing, thinking that finally the Khmer Rouge are going to bring some kind of peace and normality and quickly learn that's not true. It's a part of the movie the Killing Fields, right? So the Khmer Rouge launch a new ultra authoritarian communist regime that they nickname Year Zero. Like shit is over. Everything you thought you knew, done, gone. The idea is that the country is starting from scratch and educated people and professionals are specifically targeted to be killed or imprisoned. So it basically becomes this ultra, ultra communist country and lifestyle. All private property is outlawed. Every aspect of life is dictated by the Pull Pot regime. There's no such thing as private property. There's no money. You can't even have your own cooking utensils and make yourself food you have to eat in the big groups because everyone is equal. You can't wear glasses. Husbands and wives are separated, children are separated. It just becomes this prison. Yeah. There's no money. There are no clocks or calendars. Citizens are just assigned to labor details. And non Khmers especially become forced laborers. So they're all sent out of the big cities back into the countryside to work. Then Allie wrote note to Georgia. It feels important to mention that this vision of communism is often used as a reason why we shouldn't have any kind of socialized systems like healthcare. But this is authoritarianism. And whenever its ideology is communist or fascist, it can result in similar violence and wiping out of civil liberties. Yeah. So thank you, Ali, for noting that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. You put authoritarianism on really anything.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It turns into that exact same thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So when all of this had begun, as I said, Hang is a doctor. And at that moment that everything gets changed, he is operating on a patient when the Khmer Rouge storm the clinic that he's in. One operative holds a gun to his head and asks him if he is the attending physician, which he is. But as I said, any educated professionals are wiped out. So he lies and says the attending had just stepped out of the room, essentially posing as a lower level clinic staffer, which saves his life. He can't tell anyone he's a doctor. He's then caught up in a forced evacuation from Phnom Penh and is separated from his girlfriend, Hoy, and his family, separated from everyone. So Hang lies about being a doctor, since educated people are automatically just being killed. Hang, like most other people, is assigned to an agricultural labor detail in which he is required to push a plow through fields. That is a job that livestock would have primarily done. And they just put people on the, like, oxen cart to push through the fields.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They turned the whole country into slave labor. Slave labor, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

During this period, between 1.5 and 3 million people are killed in Cambodia through execution, starvation, and disease. Hang is tortured on multiple occasions, usually for stealing food because he's starving. On one occasion, he's tied to a tree overnight and he's bitten all over his body by red ants. And on another occasion, he and multiple other forced laborers are put on crucifixes with their bare feet over smoldering fires. And he watches as a pregnant woman who is being punished the same way die. While this is happening. And in the documentary, he is interviewed in the States about what happened, what that was like, and he gets into some really gory details in front of this audience. And it's just. Just horrible. But it's so incredible that he is brave enough to tell the awful things that they did to people when they

[Georgia Hardstark]

were being punished like this. What was the justification? Do you know? Like, what was the point of putting those people up on crucifixes like that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, they stole food. This is your punishment. But this is also a.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A lesson to everybody else, everyone, that

[Karen Kilgariff]

this is what happens. Because everyone is equal. They get the same amount of food. If you're stealing food, you think you're better than the government. You think you know more, you're punished.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A crucifixion, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hang eventually does reunite with Hoy, who becomes pregnant. There's already not enough food to sustain someone who isn't pregnant. And Hoy begins to starve. When she's seven months along, she goes into early labor. And obviously there's no way to get her any kind of medical attention. There's no medicine, there's no equipment. And here's the thing. Hing is a trained gynecologist, and he could have operated, attempted to save her, though he has no safe tools or medicine, but the operation would likely kill her. He knew that she was going to die either way. If he attempted to save her, he would out himself as a doctor. So he couldn't do anything. And Hoy dies in his arms, and the baby dies, too. After Hoy dies, Hang actively tries to get killed. He just doesn't give a fucking way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, the guilt, the horror of that, like, when you're in a survival situation like that and you're just having to make these calls that are beyond.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I feel like there's so many people, like, when we learn about Vietnam and Cambodia, it's like that's what their lives were like always. They were used to it. And I think people need to remember that that's not the case. Like that. It's the exact same thing as if that started happening to us right now. Like the horror that if you saw a pregnant woman being tortured is this. It's not like you've been seeing that since you were a child. You're used to it. Which I think is sometimes the justification in people's minds that it's, like, not as bad somehow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I feel like anytime that is what's coming out of your mouth, right? That's what.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, yeah, you gotta check yourself.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What are you talking about? What are you talking about? And also just the oppression. That level of extreme and just like, oppression as far as the eye can see is such a Hopeless, horrible situation to be in.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I really don't think I would try to survive. I really don't think I would. I mean, I've thought about it so many times with like, you know, the Holocaust, too. It's like, I don't think I'd be walking. I think I'd be laying down. Well, you say that, right? That's true.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You say that. But then, remember the guy that basically ran away from the Nazis and had to keep running for like four months or something? Like, that's a human survival instinct. That's what you do. And if you can get away, you do get away. And then you keep going. Then you build from there. And then you get used to being scared, and then you help other people that are scared. And, I mean, that's what every immigrant story really is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Seriously, you don't let them win.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. You go through the real shit, and then you come back and help other people go through shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's very, very dismissive of an experience I am two generations away from and have no idea in terms of what you are talking about. It is like. It's unbelievable. Well, you notice.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is gonna sound so corny, but like generational trauma, right? We all know that's a thing that's passed down, but the fact that we're alive means there was also generational, like, chutzpah, meaning as they were traumatized, they stayed alive and kept living and lived long enough to fall in love and have children. And that's why we're alive. So we have generational trauma for sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But we also have whatever the fuck it was, the chutzpah that kept them alive, too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And a perfect source of real gratitude.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. For every day. So Hoy dies and Hang is over life. He steals food at every opportunity, just trying to get killed, essentially. But somehow he makes it. Until 1978, when the Vietnamese invade Cambodia. This sets off a decade of warfare between the Khmer Rouge and the Vietnamese. Now that there's the chaos of fighting to distract the Khmer Rouge, Hang has an opportunity to escape with a large group. He travels to the Thailand border. Out of the 200 people that escape with his group, only 17 people make it alive across the Thai border. The only living relative or person he knows at that point is he, his young niece named Sophia. And they escape together. Once in Bangkok, Hang works as a volunteer doctor at a refugee camp. So despite all of these fucking horrors that he's gone through, all this ptsd, he still becomes. He could just doesn't have to do anything but survive. But instead he volunteers to be a doctor at this refugee camp.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I bet you there's part of him that was just like, I finally get to be a doctor. And that's made for my skills and like, actually do something about this horror that I'm surrounded by.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Totally. Hang takes. The only thing he has is a photo of Hoy. And when he escapes, he has it professionally colorized and puts it into a custom gold locket, wears that around his neck so she can be close to his heart at all times. And then he and his young niece Sophia move to the United States.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So Hang and Sophia, who's a teenager now, settle in Los Angeles. In 1980, almost their entire family, in addition to Hoy, had been killed by the Khmer Rouge. He trains to take his board so that he can practice medicine and works as a volunteer with refugees. So right around this time, and this is just. He could have lived the rest of his life out like that, but for some reason, fate intervened and this bananas thing happens to him right around the same time. Director Ronald Joffe is preparing to make the film the Killing Fields. It's based on the true accounts of two journalists, one a Cambodian named Dirt and one an American named Sidney Schanberg. And they had written the book the Killing Fields. And so the casting director, Pat golden, is working really hard to find the perfect person to play Dith and hasn't had any luck. So she somehow finagles her way into a Cambodian wedding in order to scout for her actor.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Brilliant.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Uh huh. And this is where she discovers Hang. And he is just seems like a really charming, happy person. He's smiling and laughing a lot. Despite everything that happened to him, he's very out there and gregarious. He says when he was a kid he was hyperactive and he's just really likable. And so something about him catches her eye. It had never crossed Hang's mind to be an actor in Cambodia at the time. Actors are not particularly well paid or respected. But he decides to go on an audition and just have a good time with it. He's like, here's a weird opportunity to have in my life. Let's do it. And there's a video of his audition.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And the man is a survivor of concentration camps. He's just sure, yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And he blows everyone away with his raw emotion. And when you watch the documentary and you watch this audition, you completely get it. And you see that what he did is just took himself back to his actual pain and the actual things he experienced of the story. That he is telling in this movie. It wasn't a hard stretch for him, and he's able to do it. And so he's cast in the movie along with Sam Waterston, our Law and

[Georgia Hardstark]

Order, you know, the greatest man. The greatest actor ever to live. The greatest man ever to live.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Here's a photo of them from the Killing Fields.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Look at a young Sam Watts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know, I know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Damn.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's such an incredible movie. Like, I get Full Metal Jacket, but this is the movie that you should watch also.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just looking at his face, he had to go to a reenactment of a thing he actually lived through.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Totally. And he just said he channeled it the whole time. And also he was telling them what it was really like the whole time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

On set, Hang has that same access to all his very real emotions and experiences. And he's able to consult with the actors who hadn't had direct experiences with the Khmer Rouge. When the movie comes out in 1984, it bears the brutal truth of the Khmer Rouge regime to the world. And Hang is considered a frontrunner for the Best Supporting Actor Oscar. And you know who he beat for Best Supporting Actor?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Somebody like Robert Duvall.

[Karen Kilgariff]

John Malkovich. Oh, yeah, he's also in this movie, but John Malkovich, like, one of the greatest trained actors of all time, and he wins. And so that year's Oscars are held at the Dorothy Chandler Pavilion, which is downtown. And Hang and Sofia live in Chinatown. So they're, like, able to see where they're.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They could walk home, change their clothes, come back.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly. They're not in Beverly fucking Hills or Brentwood. Yes. So they vastly underestimate how long it's gonna take them to get there in Oscar traffic. Cause they're like, it's five minutes away. It won't take as long. They just barely make it on time. And they didn't realize that the Supporting Actor Award is the first presented award that night. So when they're announcing the nominees, they have to put a photo of him up because he's not even in his seat yet. Like, they can't pan to his seat.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's literally that late.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And as he's walking in, his name gets called. And he walks straight in and up to the fucking podium and gives, like, the speech will make you cry. It's so beautiful. Here's a photo of him winning. It's just such a beautiful moment. You can tell he's so humbled by this opportunity to show what happened to his people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And it's such a Representative of, like, the Oscars is the world kind of right. And so then it's, like, understood, too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And he brought his niece along. I think she was 15 at the time, and she was a tomboy. And he said to her, you need to get a dress. And she's like, I don't want to do this. She goes, anyways, she's in the documentary. So in his acceptance speech, he says, quote, this is unbelievable, but so is my entire life. I wish to thank all members of the Motion Picture Academy for this great honor. I thank David Putnam, Roland Joffe for giving me this chance to act for the first time in the Killing Fields. And I share this award to my friend Sam Waterson, Dith Pran, Sydney Schamberg, and also Pat golden, the casting lady who found me for this role. And I thank Warner Brothers for helping me tell the story to the world. Let the world know what happen in my country. And I thank God, Buddha, that tonight I'm even here. End quote. I'm not giving it what it deserves. You should watch it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, you're not supposed to do it. That's okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's supposed to feel that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, no. But I mean, just everything about that is such a. Especially back then when it was like the time of auteurs. And, I mean, I remember seeing the Killing Fields on Siskel and Ebert on the weekend, because, of course, my parents always watch that, where it's like, oh, that's heavy. I don't think I could watch that. Whatever. Why I'm always. And that took over the Zeitgeist, essentially, that year, and everyone paid attention. Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, there were so many incredible movies coming out at the time. So the fact that it broke through is. Really says a lot about all of it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Go to hell, John Malkovich.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that's our message for this podcast,

[Georgia Hardstark]

if there's any message.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God, John Malkovich, we love you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's not here. He's not here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So mad. Yeah, but our friend is gonna tell him. I'm sure they're friends.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, Paul Giamatti.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Paul Giamatti's gotta be friends with fucking

[Georgia Hardstark]

all those powerful character actors that know each other.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, they must. Come on. Okay, so hang gets more roles. But he also really dedicates himself to telling the world what happened in his country. He uses his fame to get the message and goes on a lot of, like, talk shows at this point in the late 80s and through the 90s, no one from the Khmer Rouge has been punished, and their predecessors continue to hold power in the Cambodian government, though the extreme and genocidal policies have been walked back a bit. Pol Pot goes into hiding. Hang testifies before Congress about his experiences and is an extremely outspoken critic of the Cambodian government. At one speaking engagement, he notes the brutality portrayed in the killing fields, then saying, quote, the killing fields isn't bad enough, suffering enough, bloody enough, end quote. He does this work prolifically. Through the first half of the 90s, he's actively speaking out against the current Cambodian government, which again, has vestiges of the old Khmer Rouge. In the wake of the fall of Western Communism, Cambodia is in a period of transition with some unrest, though nothing like what he had seen. And Sihanouk is still influential and somehow evades blame for the Khmer Rouge, even though he had lent his support to it. So this brings us back to the night that Hang is killed outside his Los Angeles apartment building in 1996. And this is like, I remember hearing about this in a church. The things he survived that we'll never understand. And he comes to. It's just like, I remember feeling shame that we did this to him after what he survived. Like our country, my city did this to him, you know? So Hang had been shot, and he's found lying next to his car with his Rolex watch missing. But there's $2,900 in cash, undisturbed, in his car. And the immediate impression in the news and among Hang's neighbors is that he had been targeted, targeted by allies of the Cambodian government because of his outspoken criticism. They immediately knew he was trying to be silenced. Other people raised the possibility that organized crime could be involved since Hang had several business interests in Cambodia, including his family lumberyard, which he still had. So it's a surprise to everyone when three young men, all Asian American and all affiliated with a gang, are charged with Hang's murder. All three men maintained that they had been about a mile away at the time of Hang's death. At trial, prosecutors say that the men had demanded Hang's locket with the picture of Hoy in it that he still wore and that he had refused to give it up. And this is why they killed him. That was the prosecution's story. People take issue with this argument because Hang's pockets were thought to have been undisturbed, and there's $2,900 left in his car. All three men are found guilty on April 18, 1998, the same day Pol Pot dies in exile in the jungle on the Thai Cambodian border.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. After Hang's death, Dith Pran, the journalist upon whose story the Killing Fields is based. Says, quote, he's like a twin with me. He's my co messenger and right now I'm alone. End quote. There are no trials for members of the Khmer Rouge until the early 2010s when the UN holds them alongside the Cambodian government. Three high ranking officials are sentenced to life in prison. During one of these trials, the official says that Hang Noor's murder had been ordered by the Khmer Rouge as retribution for his speaking out against the regime. An organization called the Innocence center has taken up the case of one of the three men who had been convicted of his murder. After the release of the Killing Fields, Hang had said, quote, if I die from now on, okay, this film will go on for 100 years. And that is the story of the life and legend of Cambodian American truth teller and hero Hang Noor.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know. I almost did it at our LA live show, but I was like it's too heavy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so heavy. I mean, but it's incredible. It's like that's what makes it like all of that. And then you walk straight into the Oscars and win what a life beyond.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean what an incredible life and what a strong person and what a.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A great example for Asian American Pacific Islander Heritage Month.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean it is though.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's the worst of our month.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It is. That's a great example of someone who's like been through an absolute governmental nightmare. Basically the fabric of reality falling apart around him trying to adjust and losing everything. Not dying, getting murdered, being murdered and then being an immigrant where he just builds and builds and builds and builds and then comes back to do something about it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Totally doesn't just move on with his life.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Incredible.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So Hang Noor, it's easy to make

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[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye.

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[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, I wore a Quint's shirt into the office at the beginning of the week and people went nuts. It was super cute. It was like a linen button down with short sleeves in a nice fuchsia color. And it's that like, get ready for warm weather kind of feeling that you can have right now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, we are going to take a left turn.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Please.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't want to surprise you, but this is also based on the dead Kennedy song. That's not true at all. And it's actually maybe the complete other end of the spectrum. This story is the main story. If you were a kid in the 90s and in elementary school, a teacher read you a book about a family of pioneers, Berenstein bears close. It's called Apples to Oregon by a writer named Deborah Hopkinson, and It follows an 1800s Midwestern family and their westward journey. And it is loosely based on on the life of a successful horticulturalist who's also known as the Johnny Appleseed of the West. Oh, yeah, there's the story of his life. After all. His pioneering days were over and his fruit trees were planted. He went into a different branch of life. He attempted to start what's been described as a doomed Quaker sex cult.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, dear.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is the story of horticulturalist Henderson Llewelling.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are you ready?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm so ready.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. Main sources used for today's story are reporting by Finn JD John from the offbeat Oregon website, writing by Heather Arndt Anderson from Portland Monthly and archival editions of the Iowa Journal of History and the Sacramento Bee. Your favorite newspaper favorite. And the rest of the sources are in our show notes. So Henderson Llewelling's story begins in 1809 when he is born to a Quaker family in North Carolina. So this is one of those 1800s that there's spotty reporting on some stuff. It's back far enough that it's like we're pretty sure that he. Blank, blank, blank. There's a lot of that kind of storytelling.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Prehistoric.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's very prehistoric in that it is like pioneer era life. Not a lot of when you're out on the prairie fighting for your life, Not a lot of diary keeping, not a lot of daily. There's not a lot of journaling, not

[Karen Kilgariff]

a lot of sources to find the truth.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We needed more scrapbooking back then.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Definitely more vlogging or.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God, just a vlogging on a nice stone outside of town down by the river. Okay. So when Henderson is in his teens, he and his family and many other southern Quakers move to Indiana, Likely influenced by the Quaker community's growing opposition to slavery. So they wanted to get out of the South. And when they moved to Indiana, Henderson's father opens a nursery and he and his brother help run. It's the family business. He helps run it. He will later marry another Carolina born Quaker. Her name is Elizabeth Presnell. And when he's in his 20s, Henderson opens his own nursery. So this is a story for Janet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh my God. My mom would love this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She loves horticulture.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's such a horticulturist.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In the 1830s, when Henderson is in his 30s, cause he was born around 1800, he moves west again to eastern Iowa. So this is after the Black Hawk War and the federal government had forcibly removed both the Sauk and the Fox tribes from their land. And now they were actively encouraging white settlers to come and basically settle that land by selling it to them for next to nothing. So the Llewellings benefit from that and they settle in Salem, Iowa. Again, Henderson opens a nursery. He offers high quality seedlings and grafted trees. So I know you know this cause you're Janet's daughter. But grafting is when you take the roots from a strong tree and you attach them to the shoot or a bud from another tree so that the produce is really good fruit. You're frankensteining fruit trees, essentially. Got it. It's what you did all summer, every summer. So as more settlers arrive in Salem, virtually all of them become Henderson's customers. Cause this is basically like they're settling this land and planting it. And he's brilliantly or you know, whether or not it was intentional, he's in this business that is always needed. Like no matter what, there's a demand for basically being able to grow your own food.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So Henderson's grafted trees reliably generate so many cherries, apples, pears, plums and peaches that, per one source quote, the local market could not absorb the yield.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So he's making it possible for everybody to live large. So his business is a massive success and he and Elizabeth take this prosperity and they invest it into their home. But not in the way that you would think. Not the usual pioneer luxuries, red velvet curtains and soap. Instead, they build trapdoors and hiding places and then offer it as a stop on the Underground Railroad.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cause they are Quakers, Right? Today that house is on the National Register of Historical Places. Wow. Problem is that when Llewellyn's church learns that they are doing this for the people searching for freedom, that way, they do not approve of it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Very Joel Osteen of them. So Henderson decides that he's going to leave that church and start his own church that is more full throated in its condemnation of slavery. So at some point in the 1840s, he opens the doors to his new place called Anti Slavery, for that's what he names his church.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Straightforward.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just like put the banner right over the front door, people will come. And they did. So now he has a successful business, he has a happy family, and he has the glowing respect of his community. But he wants more, as they always do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Guys. Literally, guys, stop it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They can't help it, especially if they read pamphlets, which was the vlogging of the pioneer days. So Henderson reads some pamphlets about the Lewis and Clark expedition that went from 1804 to 1806. I say as if I knew that. And he finds it all very romantic. The adventure and the discovery. More importantly, he learns that despite the fact that the Pacific Northwest has very fertile land, it doesn't have a variety of high quality fruit trees growing there. So instead of settling into the life that he's built in Iowa, he starts thinking about starting it all over again in the Pacific Northwest. No one can understand why he would want to give up everything and start over in an unfamiliar place for a third. But to me, there's his trauma right there. He now needs to keep on doing it. That's how he's in control.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But Henderson will tell a friend, quote, it makes no difference how much a man has around him. If he is not satisfied, he will go off and leave it. So In April of 1847, 39 year old Henderson and his wife and their eight children, along with several Other pioneering Iowans set out in a wagon train for the 2,000 mile journey to Oregon.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Many someone's pregnant and like just having the worst time of her life.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Keep going. And it's hot or it's cold or it's middle. You've always got a bonnet on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You've always got a bonnet.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So the Llewellyn party consists of four wagons total. But Henderson has filled one of those wagons with 700 saplings and grafted trees so he can start his new nursery in Oregon. Author Heather Arndt Anderson writes, quote, it was an insane plan with little chance of success. Everyone mocked him for it. He did it anyway.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Those mockers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So the Blue Willing family makes the brutal westward journey across the Missouri river over the Rocky Mountains. So they've got their pioneer wagon. Some of these trees are stretching out of the pioneer wagon like four feet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so clunky and so bad for that kind of travel. It requires constant up. It's also filled with soil. Like the trees are planted in back of the wagon.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So it's incredibly heavy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Dude.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's genuine concern that Henderson's oxen are gonna give out under this wagon's weight. Members of the wagon train repeatedly suggest that he ditch his nursery wagon.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no. It's the whole point.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's the whole point. But also they're just like, come on, come on. There's trees everywhere. Which you have to admit, it'd be like bringing a big wagon of dirt and just being like, we have to bring this good dirt.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is the dirt.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is the Iowa. Henderson is committed. And seven months, very long months after leaving Iowa In November of 1847, the Llewellings finally arrive in Oregon's Willamette Valley. Against all odds, the trees and saplings make it to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I've been there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so gorgeous, so beautiful. Yeah. That's where all the good stuff is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So they settle just south of Portland. Henderson immediately gets to work clearing his property of the large fir trees that are on it so that he can lay out his nursery, which will end up being another huge success. And it will be the first grafted tree nursery on the Pacific coast. It seems like I'm really end up being an arborist or something. And it's just part of this story because I'm going to pretend like I am just super into trees. Just pretend like that's always been my personality all the way up until this point.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Definitely you're a tree influencer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Everyone knows that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's when you find out that I've been dating a guy that's really into trees and then suddenly I am too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's nice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's just a big tree guy, a lumberjack, just some sort of, I don't know, landscaper of some kind. But point of all of this is this man had a career. He also had a very strong spiritual life. He was living in his very settled ways, in many ways. But then in 1851, his 35 year old wife, Elizabeth, the mother of his now 10 children, Jesus, dies of complications during her 11th pregnancy. So some speculate that this loss changes him. With one Llewellyn family historian writing, quote, his life sort of fell apart and he was adrift without an anchor, seeking for something to fill that void and never finding it. End quote. So Henderson Llewelling is grieving, but he is also in the most prosperous area of his life, producing and selling sought after trees that help build up Portland's settler economy. But, but of course he wants more. And that's when he learns that down in California's mining towns there's such a huge demand for reliable, high quality fruit trees that people will pay one 1850s dollar for an apple tree seedling. But essentially today's seedlings in today's 2026 money cost $10.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So that's how blown, you know, it's just basically the seller's market in the California mining town. So Henderson is now in his mid-40s. He sells his Oregon business to a family member and he heads south. In 1854, he winds up in the Bay Area and establishes a major nursery that he names Fruitvale in property that has since been absorbed into the city of Oakland. You know, Fruitvale Station, which is the infamous train station where the shooting took place. So Fruitvale was a big part of the city of Oakland's kind of establishment and Henderson is in the center of it, cultivating hundreds of thousands of fruit trees. Eight apricots, grapes, apples, cherries, all to be planted throughout California. One write up notes, quote, again, Henderson was in no small measure responsible for the beginning of the great fruit industry of another Pacific coast state, an industry which has brought more wealth to California than all the gold the state has produced.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I grew up in Orange County. I was aware of it as a

[Georgia Hardstark]

young child, I mean, everywhere. And it's kind of funny because then when you fly up to the Pacific Northwest, like one of the first things you hear about are like the marionberries or the, you know, like all of that produce and farmland that's in the Willamette Valley, totally. So once he gets to California though, Henderson kind of starts going through a reinvention. He's perfectly middle aged, he's a widower, he's been working his ass off all his life and he's been a Quaker, but now he's crossing paths with radical thinkers, including people who are in his own Quaker community, but that are now experimenting with new belief systems. Like the utopian movement, which was the idea that a perfect society could exist. Or the Free Love movement, which posits that marriage is oppressive and sexist and that sexual norms should be looser. Or the alternative health movements like vegetarianism, where people followed it for both health reasons and moral reasons, or they moralized it. And of course it's the 1850s, so you gotta have spiritualism.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I was wondering.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, yeah, it's right in the. There the belief that the living can contact the dead. So there's a ton of overlap in all these ideas. They're all zeitgeisty, particularly in the Bay Area, which even then had a reputation for being open minded. So it's easy to see why Luwing finds all of this to be appealing. As a fierce abolitionist, the idea of liberating people from unjust institutions is important to him. And then the idea of personal liberation is a central tenant in the free Love movement. He's also kind of a single guy out there, like, hey, what if this was cool? To the average pioneer, vegetarianism might seem weird, but it's a long held Quaker tradition, so it's not weird to him. And of course, Henderson would embrace spiritualism while coping with the death of his wife. And that is kind of the gateway to the broader idea of utopia, where society and the self are things that can be harmonized, brought into harmony. But at that point, this is where things go very far away from the Johnny Appleseed kind of folk hero stuff and into stranger terrain. Because now it's the late 1850s. Henderson's in his late 40s, he either starts this group or he links up with this San Francisco based group called the Harmonial Brotherhood. And there are sources that say he started it, but it isn't totally clear. But basically there's no intricate day in, day out details of the Harmonial Brotherhood. But what we do know is it's made up of about 20 people, men, women and children. And many of them come from Quaker backgrounds. And now they subscribe to a blend of spiritualist, utopian and free love beliefs, just like him. Fun, right? And plums. So in the pursuit of personal, quote, Harmony. They follow strict vegetarian diet, they swear off caffeine, and they favor spiritualism adjacent treatments of the day like hydropathy, which is basically baths, cold plunges.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Honestly, it sounds way better than some of the movements and religious fucking evangelicals from back then.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hell yes, it sounds like goop. I mean, am I wrong or you're not wrong. They're definitely right about a lot of it and kind of right headed about a lot of it. But what usually happens, we know Jim Jones comes along, there's always someone with transition lenses is gonna fucking ruin you. So the Brotherhood's hydropathy practitioner is a man who is either a spiritualist preacher or a blacksmith, depending on who you're reading.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You can do both.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And he also was once a circus performer, so he can do it all.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Definitely.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The one thing he's not trained as is a formal medical physician. And yet he is referred to as Dr. Tyler or Dr. T. And he's the one that the water treatments are all coming from Dr. T. So there's an idea that Dr. T kind of started this group because he's got all the treatments and the things that he's as. They're spiritual together. He's the one that's like. But I can actually lay some hands on and make some changes. So the Brotherhood shares a dream of men and women living as equals in a state of excellent physical and spiritual health in a free love utopia, entering and exiting relationships at will. Or as Heather Arndt Anderson, the writer puts it, quote, an individual rights to bang anyone they fancied.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She wrote that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, because essentially that's what they're doing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And doesn't sound like the worst life

[Karen Kilgariff]

I've ever heard on this podcast.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. And also at this time, there were other US based religious groups doing exactly the same thing. It's possible that they heard about the Oneida community in upstate New York, which was established in the 1840s and remained as a utopian free love Christian sect for decades, famously manufacturing the kitchenware you might have in your home right now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's fucking right. You covered that, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, actually I didn't. Because Maren then writes, note to Karen Oneida could be fun to someday cover.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God, yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Doing it. Dibs. Okay. But as progressive as a place like San Francisco can be, it's not remote or rural upstate New York. And so the Brotherhood's values are far too radical for the average Joe down on Market Street. They realize that to live out their utopian vision, they're gonna have to go somewhere more isolated. No where they can build their new society in peace. It's weird. It is like a footprint, like a blueprint for Jim Jones.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It follows the trajectory of a cult.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And so this is where Henderson steps up and steps in. He's the richest member of this brotherhood, and of course he's willing to sink all of his fruit tree money into this. Cause if you think about all the risks he's taken, he's completed multiple cross country trips and reinvented like three times. So. And it's always worked. Why would he not think he could do this? So he sells the bulk of his California business and pours his money into a big schooner. He buys the boat himself, and then he buys a 50,000 acre, sparsely populated volcanic island off of Honduras.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Called Tiger Island.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is so Jim. This is so people's temple.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, exactly. A lot of people are caught off guard by Henderson's deep entanglement with the Harmonial Brotherhood. None more than his new wife, Mary, who's been kept out of the loop on this whole Honduras utopia plan from the beginning. She is not invited. Oh, so she's not in it and she's not invited. Yeah. Really. So when she learns that her husband is about to abandon her, knowing that she will be left destitute, she tries to have him. And that actually is phrased very like it's one to the other. But there's also the chance she has been living with this man who's increasingly wearing transition lenses inside the house. And so she knows maybe something needs to be done.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. It might not just be because it might be legit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, exactly. She might not just be covering your ass, but we'll never know. And the thing is, the courts agree with her and the police are dispatched to go find him. But Henderson is two steps ahead of everybody. He's gone into hiding. Until October 8th, 18th, when the harmonial Brotherhood schooner sets sail out of San Francisco with nine male members, five female ones, and six or seven children on board.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Bye, guys. But Henderson's not on board. He's actually watching the schooner from shore. And once it sails into the bay and then passes the place that the Golden Gate Bridge once will be, he waits to see if any boats come up and try to arrest anybody on it. Once he sees that that doesn't happen, he gets onto a smaller boat and under the COVID of midnight and moonlight, boards the schooner undetected out in the open ocean.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Smart move.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's pretty cool. Or incredibly paranoid. So now they're sailing for Honduras. The boat's Crewed by hired sailors, not members of the Harmonial Brotherhood. And those sailors quickly realize this is going to be a weird ride. And they will later get. They're the reasons that we know what was happening on this trip.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And so their statements to reporters shape what we know essentially. For example, living conditions on board are physically miserable, with passengers eventually being, quote, more or less covered with vermin. Maybe they didn't know how to stock the ship or pack vegetables. They had so many vegetables.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Also, tensions over food escalate very quickly because they're vegetarian. It's a tough reaction at sea. Their onboard diet consists mostly of, quote, coarse flour, apparently ground up with chaff, straw and all, and very much resembling cattle feed. Chaff is that outer husk that you sometimes get stuck in your teeth if you eat cornmeal.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, oatmeal. Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like the ody part.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Basically, they are starving on this ship. So then when they stop at ports along the way, some members get caught, quote, dietary cheating.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, shit, give me that bacon.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Exactly. Buying salted pork and game meat.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cause that's exactly what I'd go for immediately.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Exactly. You get a big hunk of beef

[Karen Kilgariff]

jerky and you just chew on it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

For nils a night, you're just chewing on it. The people who do this are caught red handed. And then heated arguments break out among the brethren. Cause not only are you hoarding food, but it's against your beliefs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it's not hot. So the biggest rift on the ship about food is known as the Egg War. And it starts in Oaxac when a merchant swindles both Dr. T and Henderson. His con involves eight chicken eggs. Basically, Henderson sees him with the eggs. He runs up and says, I'll take all of them. The seller sells him the eight eggs and takes his money. And then Henderson runs away to go get a container to put the eggs in. And While he's away, Dr. T walks up and says, I want all eight of those eggs. And the guy's like, sounds good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Bad, communica. No communication.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No communication. He sells them a second time and then disappears. When Henderson comes back with his handful of straw or whatever it is that he found to carry the eggs in, he sees Dr. T holding them and they start fighting over which one of them actually owns these eggs. We've all been there. Sure. The Great Egg War. But with these guys, they can't just work it out. They can't go like, ah, we both were swindled. This is what it's like, you know, out on the open seas. Instead, they resent each other for days, culminating in an all hands meeting on the ship.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Aw, they're little bitches, both of them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And it's like everybody's fighting and it's ruining the cruise for the rest of us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's ruining the vibe. The vibes are off.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The vibes are so off. So they have a staff meeting, an all hands meeting on the lido deck, and Henderson tells the group God wants him to have the eggs. Oh, settled.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Who knew?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did they ever say that on Real Housewives?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Settled out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

God wants me to have the eggs. So this fight is over. But apparently this is. Henderson winds up with the eggs. And the only reason we believe it is because at this same meeting, Dr. T vows to get revenge over eggs. Over eggs. They haven't even landed on the island yet. And things are that bad. So clearly, the two vegetarian free love alpha males are vying for control over the schooner and the spirit of the group itself, as they do as they seem to always want. Dr. T is a blacksmith. Henderson is a rich pioneer. Who will win. Lay your bets.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Uh huh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Good luck, players. It takes him several months to finally arrive at Tiger Island. So several more months of that life and that strife. I have Boris. So when the schooner's crew is finally cut loose, they run to the reporters, describing the journey as a free love.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hell no such thing. You'd think those words wouldn't go together,

[Georgia Hardstark]

but hey, on a boat, and these are sailors.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's the first swingers cruise.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And the sailors are just like the waitstaff that's forced to stand by in the rented community.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They know all the gossip because they're just in the background of everything.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just not into it. They keep walking into the supply galley. Everyone's fucking back there. Sorry. Don't let your kids listen to this episode. And they also document the hypocrisy among the supposedly sexually liberated group members, mentioning a specific incident at another port in Mexico where a male member of the brotherhood happens to end up at the same stream where the female members are skinny dipping or bathing. I mean, they have been on a boat for months and months. Sure. Dr. T shows up and becomes so irate that this other man has just seen his wife naked that he threatened to break every bone in his body. Unquote.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So chill.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So the blacksmith turned water doctor seems like maybe not always. Okay. Or he's like me, where when his blood sugar gets low, he threatens to

[Karen Kilgariff]

kill everyone, which is the whole time. Because they're starving.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They can't have any sugar.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. So now California papers are running sneering articles on this Harmonious Brotherhood utopian journey. They're clocking all of it. Meanwhile, on Tiger island, the gang is in rough shape. They're exhausted and they're depleted. They just arrived. Now they have to build the infrastructure needed to start, like, their little society. But immediately and very sadly, something like malaria or yellow fever sweeps through the camp, and the terrible reality sets in for the group that Dr. T's hydropathy treatments are no match for real. One of the articles covering this will document the death of a Brotherhood member identified only as Mrs. C. Which is so sad if you think of Richie Cunningham's mother dying this way. And they write, quote, they took Mrs. C while raging with the fever, wrapped her in a wet blanket till she perspired profusely, and then threw cold water over her. The speedy result was her death. End quote.

[Karen Kilgariff]

1. What a fuck shitty way to go.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Horrible. After months eating the worst oatmeal of all time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Dude, what was it all for?

[Georgia Hardstark]

For real? Just to die far away from home. Two members of the Harmonial Brotherhood die shortly after arriving at Tiger Island. This is a sea. And another, as many as eight get sick, including Henderson himself. But they recover. But there's only 20 people on this ship, so morale is extraordinarily. And to make matters worse, the egg related rift between Henderson and Dr. T has not ended.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Guys, let it go.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It can't. Eggs. Eggs. Precious eggs. Dr. T actually breaks away from the main group with a few loyalists on his side and starts a rival utopian society. Me and my two friends are out of here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We'll be on the other side of the island with our eggs.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Literally. They go. They move to another side of the. They don't get any eggs, though. Soon after, Dr. T gets sick and dies himself. Oh, so you can't. There's no room to just be busting off and being mad about eggs. No, the point is not the eggs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

God has other plans for you when you're chafing about eggs.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Amen. Okay, so from here, the information is spotty because as I told you, no one's keeping diaries. There are no scrapbooks from Tiger Island.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No one's like, I want to write down stuff. Well, this is actually dying.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. I got weird and high over eating too many vegetables and, like, having sex whenever I wanted, which seemed impossible. And now I'm in Honduras and I don't know what's going on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Maybe my wife was right to put me in a Mental institution.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oops.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Maybe my water treatments don't actually work. This is a musical. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ooh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It only took eight for the Harmonial Brotherhood's free love experiment on Tiger island to implode.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's a long freaking time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Jesus.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What we know for sure is that In July of 1860, Henderson Llewellyn commissions a crew to sail his schooner back to California. After this, when the group gets back, they disband for good. They seem to. The entire saga is extremely humiliating for all parties involved because they went out, you know, of course. Of course. Guns a blazing of like, we're out of here. We are gonna. We're gonna.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We figured it out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. Things are gonna be so much better at our new life. And this is always what I bring up in my argument against vegetarianism. Bring the bacon.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Bring the bacon.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's the old saying. Bring the bacon and you won't fight so much about the eggs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, the. Yeah, because what's the difference between the fucking eggs and the bacon, really?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's the focus. It's the lens through.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so humiliating that Henderson Llewelling lives the rest of his life under a pseudonym.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Members of his family, meanwhile, carry on his horticultural mantle and continue producing popular crops on the Pacific coast. His brother Seth is particularly successful, becoming famous for cultivating the Bing cherry in the 1870s. Hey. Y.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Love that guy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Seth actually changes the spelling of his last name to Lewelling. L E W E L L. Just

[Karen Kilgariff]

to get away from. From the. Like. Damn.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So in 1878, while clearing land with a control burn for a new nursery in San Jose, California, Henderson Llewelling dies of a heart attack at the age of 69. So he was starting it all over yet again. Jesus in San Jose. This is a hard part to hear. He's reportedly found, quote, partially roasted with his clothes, beard, and the land around him still smoke.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So he got caught on fire and had a heart attack and died.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He was control burning. Had a heart attack, dropped to the ground.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh. And was still alive.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Control burn.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Couldn't get away from the burn.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hopefully he died, but let's say he

[Karen Kilgariff]

died before the control burn. Oh, God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In 1929, while musing on a sprout from one of Henderson's Oregon cherry trees, A writer named O.A. garrettson notes, quote, that this little cherry sprout, originating at Salem, Iowa, should withstand the risks of transportation across the continent and the hazards of frequent transplanting and still live a towering monument to commemorate the energy and enterprise of a Salem pioneer is to the writer a fact stranger than fiction. And that's the story of the so called father of the Pacific fruit industry and dirty bird Henderson Llewellyn. Oh, I didn't show you any fucking pictures.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cause it was so that you had the images and the words. I didn't need it. I have it all in my mind.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I want to see some of them, though. Here's the book we were talking about.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't think I read that as a kid.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It seems so innocent. Right, well, just get ready. Okay. There he is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, there he is. There's the neckbeard.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We got the feather.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Neckbeard.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is crazy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is the season of neckbeards on my favorite murder.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I guess this was like the Benson Boone mustache is today. This neckbeard was in 1850.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cause he'd look fine without it. What are you doing? She's like, you put some sheep in wool.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's kind of Quakery.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's Quakery.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, this seems to be the trend of the time. Okay, what else have we got? Is that the schooner?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I was picturing like a yacht.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's Tiger Island.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, so there's the schooner.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, that's more what I thought.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Still, it's not big. And you can only have like, really crunchy oatmeal.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Rough. Okay, so not even big enough for people to. If the sailors from this boat are complaining about a free love situation that we're doing them out, it's everywhere. They were witnessing it. Front, back, and center. Whoops. Okay, anything else?

[Karen Kilgariff]

All holes filled.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, that's Willamette Valley.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Willamette Valley.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know the Willamette Valley when I'm looking at it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right, well, that was great. Wow. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Those are all these experiences you can have in life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. It could go so many different ways.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's all we want people to remember on this show. Please stop forgetting getting the variety of

[Karen Kilgariff]

life and enjoy yours.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because life is like a Bing cherry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's expensive. Stay sexy and don't get murdered.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye, Elvis. Do you want a cookie?

[Georgia Hardstark]

This has been an exactly right production.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our senior producer is Molly Smith and our associate producer is Tessa Hughes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This episode was mixed by Liana Squillacci.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Our researchers are Maren McGlashan and Ali Elkin.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Email your hometowns to my favorite murdermail.com

[Georgia Hardstark]

and follow the show on Instagram at my favorite murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Listen to my favorite murder on the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And now you can watch my favorite Murder on Netflix.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And when you're there, hit the double thumbs up and the Remind me buttons. That's the best way you can support our show. Goodbye.

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

Dr. Teals. Yep, you needed that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye. Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This season always means lighter clothes, fewer layers, and kind of a different shoe.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So if you're looking for new summer footwear, from classic flip flops to easy slides, check out Reef.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Reef has been making sandals for 40 years, so they really know what they're doing. I went on their website and they have the cutest summer sandals and they're

[Karen Kilgariff]

so lightweight and comfortable. And like, don't eat my heels up like regular sandals do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Explore the full collection on reef.com and get 15% off your first purchase. Goodbye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Summer is all about freedom, and your jewelry should reflect that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You can capture that sunshine feeling with Pandora Jewelry's new summer collection.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

Pandora's summer collection works whether your style is beachy, polished, minimal, or playful.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Shop in store or [e-mail] and let your summer unfold.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye.