Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 49: The Great Guy Law-Time New Years Spectacular

Summary

Podcast Summary: My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Episode: Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 49: The Great Guy Law-Time New Years Spectacular
Release Date: June 18, 2025

---

Introduction

In this special rewind episode, Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark revisit their 49th episode, originally titled "The Great Guy Law-Time New Years Spectacular." The hosts are joined by guest lawyer Guy Branham, who delves into various legal aspects related to murder and the criminal justice system. This episode marks a departure from the typical true crime storytelling, focusing instead on the intricacies of murder law.

---

Recap of Episode 49

The episode originally aired on December 28, 2016, coinciding with the end of the holiday season. Karen and Georgia reminisce about the unique dynamics of that episode, highlighting Guy Branham's contributions as a knowledgeable guest.

• Memorable Moments:
  • [02:10] Karen introduces the rewind concept, emphasizing the transition from holiday stories back to their favorite murder discussions.
  • [03:15] Guy shares a techno rendition of the podcast’s theme, adding a humorous touch to the episode.
  • [06:32] A touching story is shared about Chelsea Young, a dedicated listener who supports the hosts by sending them gifts, showcasing the podcast's impact on listeners.

---

Deep Dive into Murder Law

The core of this rewind episode revolves around an engaging discussion on murder law, led by guest lawyer Guy Branham. The conversation explores the definitions and distinctions between various degrees of murder, the insanity defense, and the complexities of the criminal justice system.

Degrees of Murder

• First-Degree Murder:

  • [11:16] Defined by premeditation and intent.
  • Quote: "First degree murder requires premeditation, but that isn't really planning. It's mostly just like being in a right enough mind to want to kill someone." – Speaker Unknown [11:19]

• Second-Degree Murder:

  • [12:38] Characterized by actions taken in the heat of the moment without premeditation.
  • Quote: "Second degree murder is used for the worst things, like that dude on Ellen or the guy who killed Harvey Milk." – Guy Branham [12:47]

Legal Defenses and Concepts

• Insanity Defense:

  • [16:47] Discussed the challenges of proving insanity in court.
  • Quote: "A lot of people try it and it's really easy to disprove. The reality is it's really hard to prove." – Guy Branham [66:05]

• Habeas Corpus:

  • [77:26] Explained as a legal action to challenge unlawful detention.
  • Quote: "Habeas corpus means 'present the body,' allowing an appeal to prove innocence based on new evidence, like DNA." – Speaker Unknown [91:24]

• Double Jeopardy:

  • [63:18] Explored the limitations it places on retrying individuals for the same crime.
  • Quote: "What's interesting is that if you promise to pay a prostitute and then decide not to, that's not rape under some old laws." – Speaker Unknown [11:05]

Inchoate Crimes

• Solicitation:

  • [36:44] Defined as intent to commit murder by urging another to carry it out.
  • Quote: "In solicitation, just tacking on the act of asking someone else to kill someone is enough to be guilty." – Speaker Unknown [36:44]

• Conspiracy:

  • [38:28] Involves planning to commit murder without the actual act.
  • Quote: "If you help someone plan a murder, you're guilty of conspiracy even if they don't follow through." – Speaker Unknown [38:52]

---

Case Studies and Historical Context

Throughout the episode, Karen, Georgia, and Guy Branham reference notable cases and historical legal developments to illustrate points.

• Jenny Jones Case:

  • Referenced at [12:38], discussed in Episode 40 (“Squad Gourds”).

• Tulsa Race Massacre of 1921:

  • Highlighted as an important historical event covered in earlier episodes.

• Ed Gein and Other Serial Killers:

  • Explored as examples where the insanity defense was attempted but largely unsuccessful due to sociopathic behaviors aligning with criminal actions.

---

Mental Health and the Criminal Justice System

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the intersection of mental health and law, particularly how mental illnesses influence legal defenses and incarcerations.

• Impact of Proposition 13:

  • [72:11] Discussed how budget cuts led to the closure of mental health facilities, contributing to homelessness and inadequate care for the mentally ill.

• Insanity vs. Responsibility:

  • [65:58] Debated the responsibility of individuals with mental illnesses when committing crimes, emphasizing the difficulty of proving insanity.

---

Personal Anecdotes and Reflections

The hosts and their guest share personal stories and reflections, adding depth to the legal discussions.

• Chelsea Young’s Support:

  • [06:32] Reveals the positive impact of listener support through gifts and personal stories, highlighting the community aspect of the podcast.

• Fear and Self-Defense:

  • [51:37] Karen and Guy discuss instinctual reactions during threatening situations, sharing experiences that underscore the importance of understanding self-defense laws.

---

Conclusion and Future Topics

As the episode wraps up, the hosts express gratitude towards their guest and listeners, and tease future discussions.

• Upcoming Episodes:

  • Karen and Georgia hint at covering additional legal concepts and sharing more true crime stories, ensuring listeners remain engaged with upcoming content.

• Guest Contributions:

  • The collaboration with Guy Branham enriches the podcast’s content, providing a unique legal perspective to the subjects typically explored.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• "First degree murder requires premeditation, but that isn't really planning. It's mostly just like being in a right enough mind to want to kill someone."
  – Speaker Unknown [11:19]

• "Second degree murder is used for the worst things, like that dude on Ellen or the guy who killed Harvey Milk."
  – Guy Branham [12:47]

• "A lot of people try it and it's really easy to disprove. The reality is it's really hard to prove."
  – Guy Branham [66:05]

• "Habeas corpus means 'present the body,' allowing an appeal to prove innocence based on new evidence, like DNA."
  – Speaker Unknown [91:24]

• "In solicitation, just tacking on the act of asking someone else to kill someone is enough to be guilty."
  – Speaker Unknown [36:44]

• "If you help someone plan a murder, you're guilty of conspiracy even if they don't follow through."
  – Speaker Unknown [38:52]

---

Final Thoughts

This rewind episode of My Favorite Murder offers listeners a comprehensive exploration of murder law, enriched by expert insights from guest lawyer Guy Branham. By dissecting legal definitions, defenses, and historical cases, Karen and Georgia provide a unique educational twist to their beloved true crime discussions. Whether you're a legal enthusiast or a true crime aficionado, this episode serves as an informative and engaging addition to the podcast’s repertoire.

Transcript

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is exactly right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Think an EV can't fit your family, your gear and your sanity? Think again. The Hyundai Ioniq 9 is Hyundai's first three row all electric SUV. So yes, you finally get space and an EV. It has class leading interior space, purposeful tech and the rear wheel drive S trim gets an EPA estimated 335 miles on a full charge. Actual range will vary. Learn more about the Ioniq [e-mail], call 562-314-4603 for complete details.

[Guy Branham]

Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If you've got a million tabs open in your brain at all times, you don't need a wireless service that slows you down.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Visible gives you unlimited data and a fast, reliable connection so you can keep scrolling until your fingers fall off.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Visible is the ultimate wireless hack. It's unlimited wireless that puts you in control. You get unlimited data and hotspots so you can stay connected on the go.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Ready for wireless that lets you live in the know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Make the [e-mail] plan starting at 25amonth.

[Steven Ray Morris]

For their best features. Get the new Visible Plus Pro plan for 45amonth. Terms apply.

[Georgia Hardstark]

See visible.com for plan features and network management details.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye.

[Steven Ray Morris]

You know, most of us don't treat our livers with any respect.

[Guy Branham]

Amen.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We just kind of assume they'll keep showing up for work even if we don't.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Fortunately, LiverMD is here to help.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Backed by clinical research and trusted health professionals, Physician Formulated Liver MD takes liver care to the next level.

[Steven Ray Morris]

The results? Over 3.5 million people have transformed their health with LiverMD.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When your liver struggles, you feel it. Fatigue, bloating, brain fog, and slower recovery from those weekend indulgences. Take control of your liver health today with LiverMD.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Visit1MD.org and use code MURDER to save 15% on your first order.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye, my fav.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hello and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

[Steven Ray Morris]

That's right, because it's Wednesday, it's rewind. And today we're recapping episode 49. At the time, we named it the Great Guy Law Time New Year Spectacular.

[Guy Branham]

I like it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It should be a little longer, but that's good.

[Steven Ray Morris]

So this episode came out December 28, 2016. That's the day your holiday trip to visit your parents should end.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But you always stay two extra days.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And let's listen to the intro. Episode 49.

[Guy Branham]

You're gonna do something. Don't half ass it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Speaking of which.

[Guy Branham]

This is my favorite murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did you get that, Steven? Are we recording the show?

[Guy Branham]

Oh my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God. Welcome to my favorite murder end of 2016 episode.

[Guy Branham]

This is the end of this fucking shit hole of a year.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Now, if you had a great year, Congratu. Fucking lations. How did you do it?

[Guy Branham]

Press stop and go have fun with.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Your and go fuck yourself. Our new musical.

[Guy Branham]

Yeah. Oh, my God. Speaking of, did you hear the song that A techno song that a dude made?

[Karen Kilgariff]

What?

[Guy Branham]

Of our podcast. You haven't heard this?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Guy Branham]

Oh, my God. Of our podcast. Okay, hold on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I feel so. Such guilt for the amount of things people do and make and whatever that. I'm always like, oh, I missed that three months ago.

[Guy Branham]

Well, you're gonna die because this is the best thing that's ever happened. Are you ready for this?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Y' all ready for this?

[Guy Branham]

Dun dun dun, dun. This is from Alex J. Squire on Twitter.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that name sounds familiar to me.

[Guy Branham]

And it's not working. Why isn't it working? There's just a photo of his cat and you press play. This isn't fucking and okay.

[Steven Ray Morris]

John Wayne gave John Wayne wood.

[Guy Branham]

This is the most Chicago live episode.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, John Wayne.

[Guy Branham]

God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

John. Oh. What? Oh my God. If you missed that one, I can't stop smiling. No, that's.

[Guy Branham]

That's. Are you saying who. That's announcing. You announcing the Chicago live show. Who you're doing. And I. And you go, John. And I go, yeah. And it's like it just goes and goes like that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That is. Thank you. Alex J. Squire. Oh, my God.

[Guy Branham]

Talented.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Are you friends with Diplo? Because that was incredible.

[Guy Branham]

It's the new hit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're hearing a very familiar laugh. We can't ignore it.

[Guy Branham]

A lot of you noticed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A lot of you know and love. That's right. We actually have in Our wrap down 2016 holiday spectacular anything Goes. And who the fuck knows? Our friend and our guest, Mr. Guy Branham. Hello.

[Unknown]

Good to be here. So excited. I want that track so bad.

[Guy Branham]

I have.

[Unknown]

I have a dance track from the 80s that is Margaret Thatcher speeches turned into an acid dance song.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Unknown]

Oh, my God, I love this so much. You guys are also astoundingly lucky with your fandom.

[Guy Branham]

Oh, for fuck's sake.

[Unknown]

Like your like you're.

[Karen Kilgariff]

People say it and you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but like, it's crazy. It's weird.

[Guy Branham]

It's crazy.

[Unknown]

The extent to which their response to all of this is. She just described a brutal murder. I need to make this a project.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Guy Branham]

Well, actually, I have something to surprise you with, Karen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What more?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because you know me hearing my Voice with techno music behind it is like, that made 2017 for me.

[Guy Branham]

Totally. So, I mean, this year's a fucking bust, but you can carry it on to next year.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Guy Branham]

Okay. So I got a package in my PO box, and it just said it was to me. So I opened it and I'm sorry. And I got a letter that made me cry. Like, literally almost made me cry. I was really depressed today. And then I read it, and it made me feel better. It's basically this girl who's like, thank you guys so much. I went to Chicago show. I also told my mom now secretly listens to the podcast. And she's a. She lives in Alabama, and she's a, quote, rich, white, Republican, Southern Baptist mother and is a closet fan. And she can't tell anyone about it. Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What's her name?

[Guy Branham]

When the girl found out that we were doing Chicago again, she said, I immediately bought my mom plane ticket to Chicago to go. Her name is Chelsea. Why? And look what she gave us. Open this. Well, here. Oh, shit. She works at a company. She works at, like, a beauty product company. And she sent us a whole line of Sweet Honesty.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[Guy Branham]

I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is this the original or is this how they market it now? I think it's still around.

[Guy Branham]

There's Sweet Honesty from the live show.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But it looks so 70s.

[Guy Branham]

I know, but Avon.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sweet Honesty.

[Guy Branham]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

No, was that a real thing? Was it a real thing?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it was real.

[Guy Branham]

That's why that girl had. It was this thing she had.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Basically. It was like, you know, Love's Baby Soft perfume from the 70s. Like, if you had a T shirt of that. This was Avon's version, which was Sweet Honesty.

[Guy Branham]

Let me see if I can find her.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And one of these looks like. Oh, my God. Wait, this. This is what they sell now. Cause this looks like the remembered deodorant.

[Guy Branham]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, old deodorant.

[Unknown]

It looks like deodorant from the 70s.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's. This is.

[Unknown]

I mean, this is the podcast that made me try to figure out how my mom could listen to podcasts because she loves true crime so much.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We gotta get Debbie on board.

[Unknown]

Get Debbie on board.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know how we're gonna do it.

[Guy Branham]

Remember when you'd have to buy your parents an ipod to get them, like, and download a bunch of fucking shit for them?

[Unknown]

Listen. She put it in a drawer. She put it in a drawer. I honestly feel like I need to go Greatest hits and burn some CDs for her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think you should.

[Guy Branham]

That's the way to go.

[Karen Kilgariff]

CDs is easier. It's not a lot of having to touc things and plug things in.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Guy Branham]

At the same time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Please burn some CDs for Debbie.

[Guy Branham]

Do it at the same time, though. My dad figured out how to listen to podcasts and that was a mistake. I'm trying to find Chelsea's Twitter because I want to give her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hi, Marty. My dad figured out how to listen to podcasts and then decided this one wasn't for him. Oh, my son. Listen, it's okay.

[Unknown]

He's more of a nerdist guy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is like, I just want to listen to men talk.

[Guy Branham]

I love it. Yeah. Women are so, so boring.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can I spray some sweet honesty?

[Unknown]

God, yes.

[Guy Branham]

You gotta huff it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Actually, I gotta.

[Unknown]

My grandma's Avon lady showing up was one of the most exciting things that could happen.

[Guy Branham]

Avon ladies were the. It just makes me think of Edward Scissorhands.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was a real thing I remember doing. What was. It wasn't. It wasn't Avon, but there was another one that was like that. Or maybe it was Avon. We went to a party of it at my Aunt Jean's house one time. And the way this lady was explaining how you had to buy all of this product because if you used a bunch of different brands on your face together, it was like chemical warfare on your face.

[Guy Branham]

That's the biggest bullshit I've ever heard.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I was 12 years old sitting at the table going, bullshit. Or everyone would have their face burned by now.

[Guy Branham]

12 year old Karen was like, she'll just call you out on your shit. It's amazing salesmanship.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's smart wording. It was very effective. It wasn't Jafra, but it was like one of those brands where it was kind of like it's a freestanding beau, you know, kind of slightly pyramid scheme.

[Unknown]

A number of women from my high school who've ended up in multi level marketing project.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Guy Branham]

Okay. Her name is Chelsea Young and she's on Twitter as Chelsea. And then L, E, E, A, U. And she's a. She's from Naperville.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Naperville, Illinois.

[Guy Branham]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's a. That's where Odenkirk's from.

[Guy Branham]

Oh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Guy Branham]

Is it terrible?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no, it's good.

[Guy Branham]

Let me smell it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But I just. Just literally inhaled it.

[Guy Branham]

She said at the. Oh, that's like baby powdery powder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It smells like baby powder.

[Guy Branham]

It smells like a diaper.

[Steven Ray Morris]

It smells Beyond.

[Unknown]

It's adorable 15 year olds.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It smells like a teenage Baby. Which is what everybody wants.

[Guy Branham]

Which is what mean men are attracted to. Normal heterosexual men are attracted to. And she also said that during the. During the live show, her friend that they were with had to go outside. She was sick of the flu. Had to go outside and barf in the parking lot, but came back in and stuck it out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Guy Branham]

Like, she was. Like, we were fucking. And she sent me a photo of her of them. And was she sick with the flu.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Of Budweiser tall boys? Because I've had that same sickness several times in my life.

[Guy Branham]

Okay. Guy is gonna law. Is gonna law us up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah, that's.

[Guy Branham]

So that's what we brought you here on those pretenses.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Unknown]

So, like, you guys talk about law things a lot. Like, you talk about murder. You talk about murder.

[Guy Branham]

We talk about them with a lot of confidence, even though we fucking don't know anything.

[Unknown]

It's true.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's a lot of theorizing.

[Unknown]

Do you guys have any idea what the difference between first and second degree murder is?

[Guy Branham]

Intent one.

[Unknown]

Oh, okay.

[Guy Branham]

I don't do Roman numerals. Sorry.

[Unknown]

You're right. That it is intent level. It is basically so like, first degree murder requires premeditation, but that isn't really planning. That's mostly just like being in a right enough mind to be like, even for a moment, I want to kill this person.

[Guy Branham]

And then doing it immediately after.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I mean, you do need to both have the mens rea and the act happen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sir.

[Unknown]

What's that at the same time?

[Guy Branham]

I don't know that word again.

[Unknown]

State of mind. Intense state of mind.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, I thought mens rea was your period.

[Guy Branham]

It does sound like real nasty period.

[Unknown]

So second degree murder is horrible. Second degree murder is either a. Like your passions were raised by. The paradigm is you see your wife fucking somebody else and you either kill him or her or into the moment. In the moment. In the moment. Or somebody starts a fight with you and they don't use deadly force, but you are trying to defend yourself and it escalates and you kill them. Those are second degree murder things. But second degree murder is used for the worst things. Like that dude on Ellen or not on Ellen. What was the Jenny Jones. Jenny Jones.

[Guy Branham]

We did that one.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Yes. Or the guy who killed Harvey Milk.

[Guy Branham]

I almost.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Dan Brown.

[Guy Branham]

Don't talk about it. I almost did that one.

[Unknown]

Oh, okay.

[Guy Branham]

No, I'm gonna talk about it. Talk about it.

[Unknown]

It was really good. But he basically said, I was so freaked out by being around gay people and I Had eaten so many twinkles that I wasn't in a right state of mind. And so.

[Guy Branham]

And like, oh. So like, okay, he got fired and he got pissed off and came back. So isn't that premedit?

[Unknown]

I mean, it all depends on what the jury believes. And the thing is, the jury is so willing when it comes to a gay guy hit on me and then I killed him. Means you're doing six years instead of I decided to kill some gay guy which is like 15 to life.

[Guy Branham]

Wow. If they can empathize with you, you're better off.

[Unknown]

And so second degree murder is this terrible situation where it's completely screwed over from women because in the like 70s they tried to sell this idea of battered wife syndrome.

[Steven Ray Morris]

The thing is that like burning bed, right?

[Unknown]

Burning bed, yeah.

[Guy Branham]

What's that? I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That the Farrah Fawcett made for TV movie called Burning Bed, based on a real story. This woman was so terribly abused. I remember watching it with my mom and at one point, I mean they. It was incredibly graphic of basically showing what domestic violence really looks like. And it's incredibly intense. But it was on at like 8 o' clock at night on ABC or whatever. And I remember at one point my mom goes, I think you should go to bed. But you didn't. No, of course not. I was just like, out of my way, lady. Like standing closer to the tv. But it was basically to try to show people this whole thing of like, yeah, knock your wife around and shut.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Her up because you.

[Guy Branham]

It's like in my mind, when I was a kid, it was like, it's romantic. It's because he loves you so much and it's so passionate and you guys just have this intense relationship and then you see the reality of it and you're like, this is just brutal fucking bullying and awfulness.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cracking someone across the mouth because she's lippy. Isn't that a fun thing to say to your friends in the bar? When actually it's a horrible pattern because you were abused. And once it starts, it can't stop because you're in this like in a rage fit and you beat a person up like they're a man.

[Guy Branham]

And then if you're older and you're in a good relationship and the thought of like Vince, when we get in a fight, which happens, him just fucking smacking me because he got like, that would be. That would change my world. And the fact that this is a normal thing for people bothers me so much.

[Unknown]

But the thing is, what's so fascinating.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is that, like, really quick. So at night she burnt his bed while he was in it. Then she got off right when she went to.

[Guy Branham]

That's a horrible idea.

[Unknown]

But the thing is, like, how we learned it in law school, basically is the terrible thing is for, like, second degree murder, it is generally a dude grabbing a gun right there. Or it has to be sort of like within the same window of time. That is second degree murder. Sort of like act of passion happens. But women who've been beaten don't do that. They stew. And then three weeks later, they.

[Guy Branham]

For three years.

[Unknown]

Yeah. And they just finally break and shoot him or burn the bed or whatever. And so uniformly, battered wife syndrome was rejected by the courts as a thing. It's.

[Guy Branham]

It's almost like I feel like it's even worse because they're going through years and years of constant torture and having their minds fucked with. Cause they never know how someone's gonna react. And so they're not even in their right mind when they're planning it beforehand.

[Unknown]

The thing that's so creepy about all of this is that so many of these ideas were built in the 1600s in England, when things that were very immediate we understood, but the notion of sort of like a long simmering psychological tort nobody understood because they all died when they were 34.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, and also that men so had the mic that it was like, well, they would have to understand how a woman would interpret abuse and approach it as opposed to how it would feel or how they would react to it, which they would be like, well, that's not how it's done. As opposed to. That's not how maybe men do it or how to the individual.

[Unknown]

Beating your wife is legal? Like beating your wife is legal?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it's in the Bible. Can I say this really quick? Just so everyone knows Guy Branham is a lawyer. The reason that we're having a. We know all this is that you are legally a lawyer.

[Unknown]

I graduated from the University of Minnesota law school in 2001.

[Guy Branham]

That is amazing.

[Unknown]

Which means I am an expert on the law of murder and other things. In the same way that Karen and Georgia are experts.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, no.

[Guy Branham]

In a much better way. No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What, though? Wait, finish that.

[Unknown]

I haven't done this. I haven't done this in 15 years. So this is basically just what I remember.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, good, good, good.

[Unknown]

But, like, from that, let's hop on over to murder's best and understand that, like, in common law, in sort of like the origin of our entire legal system, it's a Horrible construction of this situation where it has to be a violent act, it has to be against someone other than your wife. Like that old school laws. And there have been many laws that try to sort of like update things.

[Guy Branham]

I hate that. Intimidation. And a woman going along with things to not get and murdered shows that she didn't fight. So it wasn't really that kind of thing where her pants would have been hard to take off, so she must have been consenting basically.

[Unknown]

One interesting thing that you guys comes up on the show a lot is in some states you still have rape laws that have been updated. But in other states there was this thing in the 50s called the model penal code where they tried to make the law reflect the world that we live in now a little bit more. And so that's what the difference between like first degree, second degree and third degree sexual assault are. And these are very serious issues. And it's weird to hear a man talk about them. And I'm sorry, I had the creepiest crim law professor who was like a man in his 60s and he was constantly saying things that you were like, don't say it like that. Don't stop.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like he was from before.

[Unknown]

Can I tell you. Can I tell you the two worst of them?

[Guy Branham]

Yes. Always pleased. Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's our number one fan. They were always.

[Unknown]

There's no rape by swindle, which is essentially saying if you promise to pay a prostitute and then at the end you're like, nope, that's not rape. Which is like classic common law in many states. Have sort of figured stuff like that out. And then the other one was, don't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do the voice again.

[Unknown]

I'm sorry.

[Guy Branham]

Do it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I have to.

[Guy Branham]

No, I love it.

[Unknown]

When it comes to sexual violence and age, there comes a point where mental state doesn't matter if you did it. So like basically you can say, but she looked 18, but you cannot say, but she looked 13. Which was the most chilling thing to hear.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't understand.

[Guy Branham]

So wait, so you couldn't say that she looked of age and so you didn't know and so it's not statutory rape.

[Unknown]

One thing I should be saying is this man was a leading rape expert. Like he was this old, like in more ways than one 65 year old.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Slander, slander.

[Unknown]

White guy who went to Harvard was like, had written like several books about it, but was talking about it this way and it was just like, no, that's what's wrong with the law is all of these laws were written by that guy.

[Guy Branham]

Yeah, you Talk about fucking statute. I mean, this comes up and Karen's always like, stop it. But statute of limitations. It's just like my biggest. And like anything but murder has statute of limitations. Seems like, yes.

[Unknown]

And like, that comes to an idea of, like, after a certain period of time you. Like you. It's after you find out that the injury occurred, does the statute of limitations fall?

[Guy Branham]

So 20 years later you can be like, I got raped. And it wouldn't have passed the statute of limitations.

[Unknown]

Well, the thing is, you knew for all of that time, but if it was something that, like, you didn't know that something had been stolen from you, from you, or if there was a body and it was never reported and we found the body and it's related to nothing, then you have three or five or however many years, I guess it's murder. So that would.

[Guy Branham]

I feel like someday we're all going to be like, the fuck was that about kidnapping? I don't know all of it. I have a question for you that I've always wondered about myself. And what I would do is if you had to go to trial for something big, let's say, would you want a jury. Jury, or would you just want a judge?

[Unknown]

Okay, first of all, do you guys understand what the difference between those two things are?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not really the amount of people and robes. Yeah.

[Guy Branham]

One is a jury and one is a judge.

[Unknown]

So the thing is, the idea is that in all situations, you have a finder of law and a finder of fact. So, like a jury, the finder of law is always the judge because they're official and they know what the law is. In finder of fact, you can either have it be a judge or you can have it be a jury.

[Guy Branham]

And.

[Unknown]

And the horrible thing about having gone to law school is that I kind of would trust a judge as a finder of fact more. But the thing is, in a criminal case, you can't get a judge as a finder of fact.

[Guy Branham]

Really?

[Unknown]

Yeah. Well, I mean, you have a right to a jury trial. So, I mean, could you waive one? See, this is how much I don't remember this stuff. And the thing is.

[Guy Branham]

I mean, you personally am.

[Unknown]

Well, I mean, the thing is that I. No, I guess I would go with a jury because the thing is, if I had done it, a jury is easier to confuse about stuff like that. Yeah. And there's the wonderful thing that we have this presumption of innocence, and we have a thing against double jeopardy, which means if you just get them to even just mistrial three times, then you're off. One of the things that's so interesting about listening to your podcast is this strong presumption of innocence, which is a thing I love. Does lead to a lot of people getting off who we then later find out were horrible people.

[Guy Branham]

Yeah. I mean, it's so shitty because it's like, well, there's double jeopardy. But like, yeah, just because this person was terrible and molested children doesn't mean he killed this other kid. Yeah, but they. Ugh. But it's still. Shouldn't they.

[Unknown]

I mean, there's a great thing that circumstantial evidence is evidence. Like, have you guys ever talked about, like, I guess you do. You guys do with like, DNA and stuff like that?

[Guy Branham]

Yeah, there's a lot of cases where that. That we talk about that are just tried on circumstantial evidence, for sure.

[Unknown]

And you do have that thing of is it beyond a reasonable doubt? Which is kind of good because it means you need a lot of circumstantial evidence. But there's also the weird thing of it is just these 12 people kind of deciding it, which means that jury instructions are always the most important thing. Jury instructions are like a judge laying out what are the five clean questions that you need to ask to figure out whether this was the person who committed the murder?

[Karen Kilgariff]

And do they do that when everything is done before they go to start to decide or at the beginning before the case is presented?

[Unknown]

Okay, so basically, at the end of the trial, both sides will submit a set of jury instructions. These are the ones that we want them to be. And then the judge will basically, between the two of those sort of like synthesized jury instructions that he feel or she feels best, sort of like reflect the law as it exists and then submit those to the jury.

[Guy Branham]

But that would be great and wonderful if it wasn't for the fact that the prosecutors are doing anything in their means, including make up, you know, false stories, to get their client off. You know what I mean?

[Unknown]

You mean defense attorneys?

[Guy Branham]

No, the prosecution.

[Unknown]

I guess both you say get clients off.

[Guy Branham]

I mean, sorry, get there to. Okay, yeah, the defense gets a client, but also the prosecution to get this person charged.

[Unknown]

And the thing is, in my head, I'm always like, the prosecution has such a better position because before anything else a DA gets to say, is this person clearly not guilty? A DA can totally just say, I'm not going to prosecute him. And they kind of have the apparatus of the state behind them and defense attorneys, when it's not people versus O.J. simpson so much of the time are like. Like, they're worse paid, like, for everything except for white collar crimes. They are, like, worst paid, and they have, like, worse support and everything. And I do have more sympathy than I probably should for defense attorneys who are, like, trying to, like, get somebody off through technicalities. Like, let's never forget that in the late 1970s, Ruth Bader Ginsburg was going to the south to people who had been convicted by all male juries and had death sentences and stuff, and saying, let's reconsider his sentence because there were no women on this jury. And that's why you guys have to serve jury duty now.

[Guy Branham]

I do.

[Unknown]

Because Ruth Bader Ginsburg made you equal. But in the process kind of got some assholes, like, a second chance, even though they did what they were convinced in my mind.

[Guy Branham]

And this might fucking. I might be fucking putting my foot in my mouth, but I'm more dubious of the prosecution than I am at the defense.

[Unknown]

Yeah. I mean, but it is. But also, defense have so much. So much pushing them to, like, fight for technicalities.

[Guy Branham]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Where, like, I just feel like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because they're kind of there to just go. They cut down to the bare bones of, like, look, this guy's this. And he's going to look guilty. How do I. How do I cut down on how guilty he looks and just get the lowest number that we could possibly get?

[Unknown]

And the thing is, is, like, you do. I mean, it is like, defense attorneys, like, shouldn't they all be plea bargaining? Like, I just feel like good attorneys in any situation really should be coming to some sort of agreement beforehand, because going to a trial is just chaos. You don't know what those people on that jury are gonna say. It's crazy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's crazy.

[Guy Branham]

Crazy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Please, let's never be in that position, you guys.

[Guy Branham]

Let's do our very best.

[Unknown]

Do you want me to answer the question from last week? Week? The key, key question from last week.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Yes.

[Guy Branham]

What was. Repeat the question for everyone.

[Unknown]

What was your question?

[Guy Branham]

Okay, my question was. My qu. My. I said life imprisonment. A sentence of life imprisonment isn't life in prison, Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, it came up first. Not to be argumentative.

[Guy Branham]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The first thing you said was life in prison means 10 years.

[Guy Branham]

Well, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Which is when I said, you're full of shit.

[Guy Branham]

I meant. I didn't mean 10 years exactly. But yes, I meant, like, prison.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's how we started talking about it, where we're like. And then I was like, what the.

[Unknown]

Fuck is going on in the 1970, Georgia comes close to being true.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Really. I'm sorry.

[Guy Branham]

I love the clothing. 70s is my place.

[Unknown]

It's not remotely true anymore, but it is. So basically. So you have either giving somebody a number of years and sometimes you get the ridiculous number of years and you're like, why are they putting this person in prison for 572 years? And that is because they have committed a bunch of crimes. But of a sort that life imprisonment is not an option. And they're trying to put the person in prison. And then there's regular life in prison and life in prison without parole and regular life in prison in, like the 70s. It used to be that, like, after as little as like four or five years, you could be up for parole, which.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Why use the word life? That's like a time in prison. It's ridiculous.

[Guy Branham]

It's Baptist. It's like a statement that means nothing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It means nothing. That's so confusing.

[Unknown]

So what happened is because people kept getting off and going because no one knew it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Unknown]

Killing some more people. Yes. That you started getting these laws that were called truth and sentencing laws that basically said. And I think a majority of states have passed them, and a lot of states now and the federal government have the option of life imprisonment without parole. But the thing of saying you have to serve at least 85% of your sex and for life imprisonment, creating a certain. Like, you can't even be under consideration for parole until like, 15 years.

[Guy Branham]

Yeah, but that's still like, if you get life in prison and then you. And then with the possibility of parole in 20 years. And so then you get, you know, 15 years or whatever 85% of 20 is, then. Then that's. You get. You spend 16 years in prison for murder and getting. And getting life.

[Unknown]

Like, the story of this kind of is supposed to be that, like. But this guy was being a model prison being so great. And there's also this thing of, like, good behavior time where, like, the. The person in charge of the prison can, like, give, like, credit time to you because you've been like, behaving well. But that is that thing of like. Is prison reflective of how you're going to behave in real life?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, of course not. And this is. Now we're getting back into the Mary Vincent case. Case.

[Guy Branham]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Where that's what happened to the man who attacked her and viciously maimed her. Where he was so good in prison that for. I can't remember his first crime, whatever it was, I. It was probably murdering a woman or something. He spent four years in jail and then got out to almost kill her.

[Unknown]

But let's talk about the awesome and cool ways that you can punish people for being assholes. Not up.

[Guy Branham]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Unknown]

So Georgia and I are getting.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is right up your alley.

[Unknown]

Georgia and I are getting more champagne. And so this conversation.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's do it.

[Unknown]

Let's hope is getting smoother.

[Guy Branham]

Let's do it.

[Unknown]

Okay, so let's. First of all, let's just go back to what does it take to make a murder? What do you think it takes to make a murder? We already talked about the dark intent.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A knife.

[Unknown]

Oh, you make your fucking joke about the dark, but let me tell you, for burglary and arson at common law, they had to happen at night. What if you just broke into someone's house?

[Karen Kilgariff]

What does that mean? At common law?

[Unknown]

Yeah, at common law means the way that, like, the law originated in England way, way back when, but was still the valid law in the United States until, like, in places, the 20th century.

[Guy Branham]

We didn't change shit because we were stupid.

[Unknown]

They had to change shit because we were stupid. But, like, in, like, in the same kind of olden times where you could not legally be considered to have raped your wife, if you set somebody's house on fire in the daytime, you were fine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's the best. And what they said, it was a mistake or something, or like, they just.

[Unknown]

The thing is, is that all of this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You weren't being sne.

[Unknown]

All of it? Yes. It was just like, well, the dude who owned the house really should have been watching it better now, shouldn't he?

[Guy Branham]

Because neighbors are assholes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's right.

[Unknown]

And so that's all the law that just exists without us doing any work about it. And then eventually, like, state legislatures had to come along and be like, well, we should do something about this, because they keep stealing during the daytime.

[Guy Branham]

And everyone's like, but it's tradition. And this is how they did it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But there's lights at night now that it's 1984.

[Unknown]

Okay, what else do you need? Like, what else do you need for a murder?

[Guy Branham]

Murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, intent.

[Unknown]

So we said intent.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Shit.

[Guy Branham]

What else can steal my ants?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did you say intent? Yes, intent.

[Guy Branham]

Does it kill somebody? Okay, that's another thing. Okay, this is something we talk about a lot, is. I think it's fucking insane that attempted murder isn't tried as murder.

[Unknown]

Okay. That's what we're getting towards. I was just listening to an episode where you were ranting about that. And so I was.

[Guy Branham]

I don't rant.

[Unknown]

So I was talking about that.

[Guy Branham]

That's hilarious.

[Unknown]

So basically there are three kinds of.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Of.

[Unknown]

Crimes where you don't have to do the act. So the thing is, is that like the thing that makes murder murder is that you commit an act, a violent act that deprives someone of their life.

[Guy Branham]

Right.

[Unknown]

And the magic is the difference between depriving someone of their life and not is huge. I could punch the shit out of Steven right now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no.

[Unknown]

And if he. He like survived, then that would just be battery and assault. And I would go to jail for like six months.

[Guy Branham]

Is that because they can't prove your intent or even if you assume.

[Unknown]

No, like the thing is, it requires the same intent. Intent doesn't mean I want to kill Steven. If I the exact same punch that he's like, fuck that dude punch and he's still alive afterwards, it's bad.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or.

[Unknown]

And maybe go to jail for like three to six months or something. The exact same punch. If like, you know, they call it the. Was it glass victim or something?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Delicate Stevens syndrome.

[Unknown]

Delicate Stevens syndrome. Under Delicate Stevens syndrome. And he goes down and he's dead. I go to jail for 15 years to life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Like, it is just.

[Guy Branham]

Just cause Steven's face couldn't take it.

[Unknown]

Yes, it is just that much of a difference.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just cause he loves cats.

[Guy Branham]

Just cause his mustache didn't reflect the fucking punch.

[Unknown]

And it's a little bit creep. And attempted murder basically just comes down to attempted murder is something you just kind of tack on top of the fact that it was fundamentally just a battery.

[Guy Branham]

Okay, but what if you shoot someone in the head and they survive? Or what if you fucking stab someone and leave them for dead and they survive?

[Unknown]

Well, I mean, the thing is that it is the interesting. You have to suss into a person's head that it was actual attempted murder as opposed to just a battery. And they can probably sue you for a while.

[Guy Branham]

Can we have a point where if you put something killy in someone's body, it's fucking.

[Unknown]

It's a tactic you're murdering that is aggravated battery. Use of. I mean, putting something gilly is actually a legal concept. And it's like the difference between first degree sexual assault and second degree sexual assault in a lot of states is did you use a killy? Did you use a killy thing when you were raping her? Or like in some cases the difference is between intercourse and just sort of.

[Guy Branham]

Like, you know, forced sexual assault when the person.

[Unknown]

All of the other things that when consensual Are fun, but not sex.

[Guy Branham]

If we say that, we're going to get in trouble for. So let's not say it.

[Unknown]

Okay, yes, terrible.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You mean what you just said?

[Unknown]

What?

[Guy Branham]

No, I think I agree.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Guy Branham]

No, no, no. I just mean, like, explaining what the difference is. Is going to piss someone off because it's such a fucking. It's so. Okay.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Anyways, we're just talking about the facts of what it is. It's not a truth.

[Unknown]

So the point is, is that my entire, like, my specific intent to kill doesn't matter nearly as much as what happens to Steven. And so with attempted murder, it is just the fact that at the end of the day, Steven's alive, can go to law school one day maybe, you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Know, just like, really make something of himself.

[Guy Branham]

So there are finally no Steven. You're fucking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're doing really well.

[Unknown]

Two other inchoate crimes, that is. They're not complete. There's no. There's not. There is an act in them, but not. Not all of the act.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like the. All of the act would mean end up dead.

[Unknown]

Yes. They're called solicitation and conspiracy.

[Guy Branham]

Ooh, I like these.

[Unknown]

What do you think those things are selling?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is solicitation okay? Selling your body?

[Guy Branham]

Solicitation, I think, is trying to get someone to kill someone else.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Guy Branham]

Fuck yeah, dude.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're like. It's like 5 and 0 right now.

[Guy Branham]

It's almost like I just watch TV all day and read fucking murders all night, which I do.

[Unknown]

The thing about solicitation that's wonderful is so. So all you need is the intent to want that crime to occur and an act to get somebody else to do it. And you are, at that point, guilty. Like, the crime that comes or the sentence that comes with solicitation is the same as murder. It's completely the same as murder.

[Guy Branham]

So if you accidentally ask, like, an undercover cop to kill your husband, it's like you killed your husband.

[Unknown]

But what do you mean about accidentally?

[Guy Branham]

Like, you undercover cop.

[Unknown]

Okay, the undercover cop was the accident.

[Guy Branham]

You tripped upon a fucking cop in uniform.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, you fell down into a cop's ear kill.

[Unknown]

But the thing is, if you said, like, God, I love it. If Vince weren't around tomorrow, you didn't have intent at that time. But if you went to an undercover cop and was like, look, Vince has been the worst and you, like, wanted it and meant it, then, yes, you're going to jail for exactly as much as if you had attempted to murder Vince. Yes.

[Guy Branham]

Erin has her hand, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I have my hand up Shit. Oh. So does that mean that when you catch a person on tape, like if someone calls someone, that's it's over? Like it always seems like in forensic files in 2020. It's like the second you make that deal on a phone call.

[Unknown]

So the act. So in a murder, the act is putting the stabby thing in, but in solicitation, the act is just the call. And the thing is, at that moment, it's enough. And you are an attempted murderer. And if the other person did end up murdering the person, you're a murderer at that point in time, so you're.

[Guy Branham]

The murderer even if you didn't commit murder.

[Unknown]

The thing is, you' guilty of solicitation of murder, which carries the same punishment as murder.

[Guy Branham]

Interesting.

[Unknown]

Now, what do you think conspiracy is?

[Guy Branham]

Conspiracy to commit murder is planning it.

[Unknown]

But without a hitman, none of these like solicitations.

[Karen Kilgariff]

More of a DIY thing.

[Guy Branham]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

The thing is, if you knew that Karen was going to try to.

[Guy Branham]

Everyone is getting hurt in this podcast.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not in real life.

[Unknown]

If you knew that Karen was going to try to kill me and you helped her plan it and figure it out, basically, sort of like conversations that are like, in the direction of that happening. That conversation is enough that when Karen kills me, you are guilty of conspiracy of murder.

[Guy Branham]

And I can say that. Well, I thought she was kidding. I didn't think she was serious.

[Unknown]

And it's for a jury to decide. The thing is, it is for the judge to say if she thought she was kidding legitimately, that's not conspiracy for murder.

[Guy Branham]

Is it admissible?

[Unknown]

And it's not a question of admissibility. It is a question of just like, legally, that's a mistake that absolves you of your mens. Rea. Your mind. State your entire.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's my word again.

[Unknown]

But it's for the jury to be like, to look Georgia Hardstock in the eye and be like, is she bullshitting us? And if they think that you're not bullshitting, then you are guilty of the same punishment as murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, I have my hand. Because that. Okay, so that is this thing that's now coming up all the time where people are only now realizing that everybody doesn't react the same way. So if they look someone in the eye, in the courtroom, there's a lot of these. A crime to remembers where it's like, she was icy cold. And, you know, how dare a mother of two be this way? Therefore, she's guilty.

[Guy Branham]

Yeah, she didn't burst into tears.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, she did act like a woman. Quote, unquote. And so she's guilty or whatever. So it's that thing where there people are now realizing if a person. Person doesn't act the way you have imagined a person under stress would act, or a person that was sad or guilty or, you know, regretful or anything, that's like all that projection. But instead it's like every individual deals with that.

[Guy Branham]

And don't you like when I watch Confession or when I watch Interview or what's it called when you talk to a perpetrator? Investig.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You mean in court?

[Guy Branham]

No, in like the police room.

[Unknown]

Interrogation.

[Guy Branham]

Interrogation. Thank you. I'm like trying to study that person and every single thing they say, but you just can't fucking know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Steven Ray Morris]

And we're back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I had forgotten about this episode, and I love it so much. It was such a great little segment. And we always talked about doing it more and never did.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Should we talk about why we did it?

[Guy Branham]

Yeah.

[Steven Ray Morris]

So I was working on talk show, the Game show, which is Guy Branham, who is our guest for this entire hour. He was the host of that show. And I was the head writer at the time. And I was on it and I was trying to finish the story I was doing that week. I wish I could remember it. I won't be able to. But I just couldn't finish it because I did work. And so I called you and I was like, yeah, I don't know what to tell you, but I didn't finish my story. And I was like, I simply don't have a story to do, so I can't do that. And we went back and forth. I remember walking up and down the alleyway outside of the writer's room. And then I was like, okay, hold on. Give me one second. And then I went inside and I was like, hey, look, we're fucked. Can you please come and be on the show? And Guy's like, yeah, I'll do that. I'm like, really?

[Guy Branham]

Cause he listened too.

[Steven Ray Morris]

He was a big fan. He talked about it all the time. And if we talked about stuff that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Was like, why did they do it.

[Steven Ray Morris]

This way or that way?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Very clueless.

[Steven Ray Morris]

He would always tell me at work. So I was like, wait a second. I think I can make up for the fact that I didn't do my homework. Get something going. So we're still recording and it's not like a waste of time. And then it turned out to be like this band aid. That was like one of the best episodes we've ever done.

[Guy Branham]

Yeah, it was so Good. He really fucking killed it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it was very nice of him to come on. There are a couple stories that we mention in this episode that we end up covering. So guy brings up the Jenny Jones murder case of Scott Amedure, which I cover in episode 40, Squad Gourds. And then you mentioned the burning bed story that made for TV movie the story of Francine Hughes. And you covered that recently in episode 465. You're kidding yourself.

[Guy Branham]

Supped is what it's called.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So you can check those out. Just kind of like a nice little teaser that we didn't even know we would do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Because all of these stories are kind of hanging in the air around us. And it's like that I remember, remember when I was this many years old and saw this on TV inappropriately And it stayed with me forever.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He knew all the answers. It was very nice.

[Guy Branham]

All right, so should we get into.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Some more of it? Let's get into the second part of this law episode. We're all feeling chill, relaxed and effortlessly happy, right?

[Guy Branham]

Wrong.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's because mental health isn't seasonal. If you're feeling weighed down and need to talk to someone, that's not weakness. That is taken care of of yourself. Therapy is a great way to process your feelings. And Talkspace is the leading virtual therapy provider. Talkspace brings therapy to you so you can get support from the comfort and privacy of your home. Better mental health leads to better health overall. Just like your physical body needs exercise, your mental health needs maintenance and attention. Talkspace makes getting the help you need easy, accessible and affordable. Plus, most insured members have a zero dollar copay. So when I miss a therapy session cuz I'm too busy or my therapist is out of town, I can tell in my mood and in my life that I am not doing as well. So you guys who have never done it, I can't imagine how hard your life is right now. Stop making your life harder by not going to therapy. I swear it makes life better. And as a listener of this podcast, you'll get $80 off your first month with Talkspace when you go to talkspace.com mfm and enter promo code SPACE80. That's S, P A C E80. To match with a licensed therapist today, go to talkspace.com mFM and enter promo code SPACE80 to get $80 off your first month and show your support for for the show.

[Guy Branham]

Goodbye.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Summer's here. And if you're over the age of 11, guess what?

[Guy Branham]

You still have to wear shoes Might.

[Georgia Hardstark]

As well get comfortable with Bombas getting.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Serious about running Bombas athletic socks are designed to fight blisters, wick sweat and keep you comfortable whether you're on mile one or marathon training.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If you're planning your summer vacation, they even have socks that can make international flights bearable. Bomba's compression socks help curb aches and keep those legs energized for all the.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Sightseeing ahead headed to a wedding. Bombas has ultra soft dress socks that work with heels or hard sole shoes so you can stay comfy feet and keep dancing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And you know, it goes great with new summer socks, fresh white T shirts, waterproof slides and a few pairs of buttery soft underwear. Bombas makes all of that too.

[Steven Ray Morris]

That's really true. I actually got some T shirts and some underwear the last time we got sent some Bombas stuff because I have so many of their socks and love them and all of the other stuff.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is as high quality just like it's.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Your go to thing. Super soft, super comfortable, great to wear it is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love those undies. Sorry I said undies. Head over to bombas.com mfm and use code mfm for 24 off your first purchase.

[Steven Ray Morris]

That's B O M b-s.com mfm code.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mfm at checkout bombas.com mfm and Use code mfm Goodbye.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Look, we all fantasize about going off the grid, unplugging, maybe spending some time as a trad wife. But let's be honest, we all need.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Reliable wireless and that's where Visible comes in.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Visible is the ultimate wireless hack. It's unlimited wireless that puts you in control. You get unlimited data in hotspots so you can stay connected on the go.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Visible runs on Verizon's 5G network, so you get great, great coverage, fast speeds, seamless connection.

[Steven Ray Morris]

We're talking about access to 4K streaming.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The Visible Plus Pro plan is premium wireless without the premium cost.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Plus it's all digital. You manage your plan in the app and you can even switch your service from your phone. It only takes about 15 minutes. Ready for wireless that lets you live in the know. Make the [e-mail], plan starting at $25.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A month for their best features. Get the new Visible Plus Pro plan for $45 a month. Terms apply.

[Steven Ray Morris]

See visible.com for plan features and network management tools.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Details.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Goodbye.

[Unknown]

One of the things that's interesting is that the idea of how a person would behave is a legal an interesting legal standard of how would a reasonable person act so the thing is, let's say I was walking much larger than Georgia. I was walking towards her menacingly. She became terrified and thought I was going to try to kill her. And she bludgeoned me with the Amy Sedaris crafts book that we just had. The question for the jury is A, did she legitimately think I was gonna use deadly force against her? And B, would a reasonable person have thought I was going to use deadly force against her? And that question of how would a reasonable person react is always so problematic, as we saw with Trayvon Martin and so many situations where we can put our minds into the head of white dude, but we can't put our heads into the mind of black teenager.

[Guy Branham]

So my rule of pepper spray first and apologize later is probably illegal.

[Unknown]

No, that's kind of fine because it's non deadly force and non deadly force. The wonderful thing about pepper spray is the difference. The difference between deadly force and non deadly force is huge. And if somebody is using non deadly force against, like if somebody is not trying to kill you, right, they think they're threatening and you use, and you use any level of non deadly force, you're fine. That is self defense.

[Guy Branham]

Beautiful.

[Unknown]

That is perfectly good self defense. The thing is, you need the other guy, the bad guy to be attempting to kill you.

[Guy Branham]

Kill or like sexually, anything. You don't know what, you don't know how it's going.

[Unknown]

I mean, the terrible thing about the operation of the law as it exists right now is that it does kind of require that he or she be trying to kill you for you to kill them. And if it is, the thing is that presumably if somebody was coming at you to sexually assault you and was being very physically intimidating, you understanding that as being deadly forced and sort of understanding, if I resist him enough, this dude's going to kill me. That's understandable. The other situation where you're allowed to use deadly force even if they're not using deadly force is in your home, right?

[Guy Branham]

Some states don't.

[Unknown]

Yes, it does vary state by state. It does vary state by state. But generally there is a duty to retreat in a lot of situations.

[Karen Kilgariff]

By who?

[Unknown]

Like if somebody's coming at you and you have a way of getting away.

[Karen Kilgariff]

From there, you have the duty to retreat.

[Unknown]

I mean, the thing is that if they're using deadly force against you, self defense is fine. But like, if you have a clear way out, use your clear way out. But nobody's expecting you to retreat from your home. You get to maintain your home.

[Guy Branham]

Okay? That's so interesting.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's good to know.

[Guy Branham]

Yeah. Hide knives everywhere.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That just reminded me of just a quick anecdote.

[Guy Branham]

Do was getting heavy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, this is just an interesting thing of being in the home. And also we were talking earlier about growing up in the country. My older mate, Maleva, grew up in a town called Auburn, which is like 20 minutes north of Sacramento. Beautiful, and just a gorgeous, gorgeous area up in the. The old gold. The gold rush country and red woody kind of thing. Not redwoody, because that's close to the ocean. This is more. But it's very foresty and hilly and just a lot of houses. Every house is five miles away from the other house. No, there's no such thing as real neighbors.

[Guy Branham]

I don't think I've ever not shared a wall with neighbor. Yeah, that scares me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This might really you uncomfortable because. So one night, and they all grew up like that. And my friend Leva told me the story that she. One of her friends, was home alone as a teenager and got up to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night, and her parents were, like, away for the weekend, and she stepped into the dark hallway, and there was a man standing at the other end of the hallway. So she just started making the weirdest noise that she possibly could. Yes. Like. Cause she just was, like. It was just an instantaneous decision where she's, like, totally alone. Wherever the gun is, she's nowhere near it. Blah, blah, blah, whatever. So she just started, like, being crazy creepy, and it freaked this guy out, and he ran out of the house.

[Unknown]

That's so smart.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Isn't that amazing?

[Guy Branham]

That's so smart. Because I am so. I have this big fear that I'm gonna get attacked one day. And, you know, when you can't, you're so freaked out, you can't scream. Yes. Which I know happens a lot in dreams, but it actually happens when you just try to scream and your voice is gone because you're so scared.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Guy Branham]

Like, I'm so terrified that that's gonna happen. Whenever I read a murder story where the woman just starts screaming, I'm so impressed by that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Guy Branham]

Those instincts are just like. And to do that is so impressive.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's crazy. And I think it was her following her instinct. And it's also, like, when Mileva made the noise for me, I was like, stop making that noise. It's really weird, guttural. It was almost like it being an animal, but it was almost like she's like, I'm an animal. That. That might attack you. And chances are when you think about stuff like that, there was probably a drug addict, like a local drug addict that was just trying to get something he could sell for money for drugs. And so he's just like, I'll just break into this dark house and I'll get this thing and get out. So he's probably high anyway. And then seeing some weird thing at the end of the hallway making that noise, like he probably stopped burgling. I like to think having the peace.

[Unknown]

Of mind when you're in probably the most scared situation you're ever going to be in, to play on the other person's sense of fear is like, it's just so self possessed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's a very good idea.

[Guy Branham]

How can we. What are other ways we can do that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, like sometimes when I walk the dogs and I'm scared at night because I'm walking them in the dark and I'll like pass a house and then I'll look into the window and I can see people and then I'm like, oh, oh, maybe I'm the creep. Like I always think the creep's behind me, but I could be the creature.

[Guy Branham]

I'm sorry. If they're not closing their blinds, then they're, they're asking for it.

[Unknown]

Right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

But like all it takes is the difference of being a girl walking a dog is like, I just stepped behind this tree and now the weirdo or.

[Guy Branham]

The person across the street sees you standing behind a tree looking in a window. Oh my God.

[Unknown]

On a slightly related note.

[Guy Branham]

Yes, yes.

[Unknown]

When you're a gay guy walking down the street at night and a woman starts to walk faster or have any of the reactions that are the most normal reaction to a man walking behind you in that way. It's so funny because I've talked about this with friends. The inclination to. Sometimes people I know have started to have a. Pretend to have a phone call so that they can I see it, have gay voice.

[Guy Branham]

Oh my God, just yell I'm gay.

[Unknown]

I mean, I, I most frequently will.

[Guy Branham]

Start singing to myself, you're crazy, you guys.

[Unknown]

To just be like, don't worry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I thought you were gonna say take the time to critic, criticize her hair. And then she knows she is not in any danger.

[Guy Branham]

Do you guys think, okay, I have.

[Unknown]

I have literally been in the situation where I giggled at something and a woman's physical behavior on a street was just like, oh, I'm fine.

[Guy Branham]

Yeah. She's like, actually, sir, can you walk me in my car? Do you think? I always think like if I acknowledge someone and smile at them and say hello or whatever. That I'm letting them know that I am aware of my surroundings. And so I'll stop and get my phone out and let the person pass me and say hello to them. And like, not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Can I just say this? I just was. Did I tell you about that book that I got? And it's called like the Spy's Way of, like. Shoot. I need to remember the correct name.

[Guy Branham]

Shoot. That's so cute.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, shoot. It's called like, he was basically a CIA agent and it's a book. It's like a total plain read that I read where it's just a list of ways to stay safe.

[Guy Branham]

Oh my God, I need it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I'll give it to you. It's really, really good. But I basically skipped to. The whole thing was like, environment awareness. And he's like, I would throw everyone's phone away if I could. Because people go into this thing where they think because this thing has a priority and they're so interested in it that the world they're shutting out is shutting them out. When actually it makes you a target. When you are clearly like being mesmerized by this thing in your hand and you don't have environmental awareness. So like, when you have.

[Guy Branham]

Have to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You don't have to do anything. But when you're walking down the street, the best thing to do is be looking around, be making eye contact confidently. Making eye contact with people confidently. And just being. And also being able to look at a person being like, I see you there. Like, I have a phone in my hand that I can do something with. But also I see you there and like, are you going to come at me? Is. Is a way better approach.

[Guy Branham]

Approach.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because that's. You're basically. It's kind of like alpha dogging. And just being like, this is my area and this is. I'm not a victim. This is like.

[Guy Branham]

I mean, I literally carry my pepper spray in those situations.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like walking down the street in the dark, whatever.

[Guy Branham]

Yeah, yeah, that's like walking. I'm like, like when something just feels off, sometimes I'll just walk with it in my hand. Yeah, I don't know. I know I'm fucking paranoid as shit, but like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But that's what it's like, really?

[Guy Branham]

So.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it's what it's for.

[Unknown]

I can't recommend being a creepily gigantic man. Amazing.

[Guy Branham]

How tall are you?

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're like six, three.

[Guy Branham]

Oh, my God.

[Unknown]

Although last week I was in. I was in Bloomington, Indiana, and I went to I went to the gay bar in Bloomington, Indiana, and I went to the address.

[Guy Branham]

Gay bar. I love that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's like, yeah, really?

[Unknown]

And I looked in, and there were, like, men playing pool and, like, couples together. And I was like, oh, this is not a gay bar. What's going on? Because if there are men playing pool, you're in the wrong place. So I went in and I. And I was like, hey, where's the back door? And they were like, oh, you have to go around through an alley.

[Guy Branham]

The back.

[Unknown]

Wait to a windowless. Like, it's just like a gay speakeasy. It's a gay bar. From the time when gay bars couldn't have window. Like, gay bars were about having a good time while hiding.

[Guy Branham]

I like that he. I like that he knew what you meant.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Guy Branham]

I wouldn't.

[Unknown]

But the experience of, like, walking through that alley and being like, how many people have been beaten?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah.

[Guy Branham]

It's almost like. It's a shameful thing that you have to walk through this place and no one wants to go. That's awful.

[Unknown]

I mean, it's like the old school way of things. But it's the closest I can come to kind of understanding what it's like for you guys. Anytime it's dark and you're going to your car of like, here's this alley where somebody could wait. Wait to just, like, hit you with a baseball bat or something.

[Guy Branham]

It's not even at night. It's all day, too. Like, I'll. I won't walk down certain alleys during the day because it's just.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Don't walk down alleys. Yeah, no, they're dirty, and they're for garbage men.

[Guy Branham]

They're not for girls garbage men. Not sanitation workers is what you're saying.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Guy Branham]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Men of garbage. Level humanity.

[Guy Branham]

I want to clear that up, because sanitation workers are very respectful.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh. But they're just. I also meant their truck goes through that alley real fast. That's where the garbage cans are.

[Guy Branham]

We're also shitty dudes.

[Unknown]

There was one final topic I wanted to discuss with you guys.

[Guy Branham]

Please.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right.

[Unknown]

Okay. So one of the ways of sort of, like, saying something is not murder is just sort of saying that the right state of mind wasn't there. And what. Well, first of all, just what manslaughter is, is when you didn't intend to do something, but you made a mistake and you did it. You were negligent. So essentially, anything you do in a car, not murder. It is, like, in the state of California, I think There is a really strong presumption that anything you do in a car is not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You wouldn't want to kill someone with your car.

[Unknown]

Yeah. You wouldn't be trying to kill someone with your car. Like, if you shoot someone in a car. I'm not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Don't be crazy.

[Unknown]

Right, but just sort of like an accident is an accident. But. But again, I don't know why I'm targeting all of this towards Georgia. Because of your attempt obsession. The difference between I hit somebody with my car and I hit somebody with my car and then it killed them is I accidentally hit someone with my car and then I killed them is you're going to jail for eight years, dude.

[Guy Branham]

I knew a guy who fucking was.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wait, sorry, sorry. I accidentally hit someone with my car and then it killed them. You're going to jail.

[Unknown]

You're going to. That's manslaughter. You've committed manslaughter even though it was an accident.

[Guy Branham]

Which is why don't fucking drive, even if you're buzzed, because can you imagine two drinks and you drive and you accidentally kill someone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I didn't realize that's what you were saying.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's horrifying.

[Unknown]

And there's an extra level of that where there are things that you are doing that are accidents but are so dickishly stupid that they're called depraved heart. And so they're either called depraved heart, manslaughter, or in some states that's enough for murder.

[Guy Branham]

I think I know a dude that. That happen to you?

[Karen Kilgariff]

What's the example, though?

[Unknown]

I went out onto my balcony and I shot my machine gun just into space because I thought it was hilarious. I just drove my car into a farmer's market because I thought it would be funny.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, like, who doesn't?

[Guy Branham]

No idea. That's not the thing at all. Well, I know. Okay, so I know a dude, he was fucking high on meth. There was fucking traffic on the freeway and he decides to fucking gun it in the next to the fast lane, like the pull off lane. Some fucking people had broken down in that lane and he comes around a curve and hits them and they fucking. I cannot. It's been 15 years.

[Unknown]

That's completely depraved heart. And it's that thing that's horrifying.

[Guy Branham]

He went to prison for a long time.

[Unknown]

The very interesting thing that for a long time I got so drunk or I got so stoned. Just meant that you had been negligent and not that you had intent. Does that make sense?

[Guy Branham]

So does it now mean that, like.

[Unknown]

Basically it would now probably be construed as depraved heart. Like, you just. You got yourself into a situation where you knew it was possible that you were my driving to somebody like that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, that's that thing where, like I lived through. I think we all lived through the time where we watched drunk driving become a bad thing.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Which is hilariously insane now. But like, it was when I was 10 or 12 years old. I remember the. It was. I think it was a made for TV movie where like. And it's a true story of the drunk driver who had been arrested for drunk driving eight times. And then he does it. It's the ninth, but never went to jail. It was like, here's your ticket, ticket, ticket. He comes over the hill. It's the story of the woman who founded Mother Against Drunk Driving.

[Unknown]

I remember that TV movie.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Her kid's walking in the middle of the street over a hill. He's drunk. He plows down two girls, I think. And yeah, and that's when they were like, no more of this fucking businessman who had a great lunch and sorry, everybody, bullshit.

[Guy Branham]

You would think that they could. That the parents could sue the city for that. For never having punished him for all the eight fucking DUIs he already had.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think now do stuff like that. But like, back then it was like, oh, but we all drink and drive.

[Guy Branham]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

You interestingly can't sue a city for things like that because of a thing called sovereign immunity.

[Guy Branham]

Shut up.

[Unknown]

Where Unless the state. Unless the state, like when the state is acting like a business, like when they're, when they're running, like, oh, we take your garbage away or we're making power. That stuff you can sue them over. But we did the stuff that like, only a state can do. Like we criminally prosecute, like we fail and prosecuting them or whatever. It's like you treat them the same way you would the king of Just like, no, they're fine.

[Guy Branham]

Fucking police state, motherfucker. What's interesting for or against? I mean, I think we're fine right now.

[Unknown]

I mean, and we are cruising for.

[Guy Branham]

Police state in the near future in 2017. We're fucked.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's work against is what we're saying.

[Unknown]

Interesting is the first, like, as we get more texting while driving. The thing is like texting while driving. Probably negligent driving while watching Real Housewives of Beverly Hills on your phone. No.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Brave.

[Guy Branham]

Who does that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I feel like watching Real Housewives of Beverly Hills is Debra. Anyway, it took me Too long to say that.

[Guy Branham]

No. It's good though.

[Unknown]

Thank you.

[Guy Branham]

Thank you.

[Unknown]

Can you think of any other way of getting rid of somebody's state of mind?

[Karen Kilgariff]

First of all, you're the best teacher I've ever had.

[Unknown]

I know.

[Guy Branham]

This is fun. I hate being asked questions.

[Unknown]

I'm so sorry. Being so lost.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But you're the one. You know all the answers. This is the best brat.

[Guy Branham]

What? Can we think of another way.

[Unknown]

Way of. Of like obviating the. The.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You can't say words like that.

[Unknown]

Of sort of removing the state of mind as one of the elements.

[Guy Branham]

Drugs.

[Unknown]

Elements.

[Guy Branham]

Same thing as drugs.

[Unknown]

Is basically the sort of lowering it to negligence. The way that we talked.

[Guy Branham]

Oh, mentally capacitated.

[Unknown]

Mentally incapacitated.

[Guy Branham]

Except I said mentally capacitated.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What's mentally capacitated about?

[Guy Branham]

Not me.

[Unknown]

There aren't. Okay, so there are cool defenses. Like self defense is a great defense, but there are cool defenses like duress. Duress.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm always under duress.

[Unknown]

Yes. He has my child and he told me the only way he would let my child out is if, you know, I shot this person.

[Guy Branham]

Does that work for cats too? Because I fucking kill a bitch if they hurt my cat.

[Unknown]

Okay, based on the things that I have told you, what do you think the standard would pay?

[Karen Kilgariff]

What's the standard again?

[Guy Branham]

Based on the things you've told us? Based on the K and I are great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I flunked out of a state school.

[Guy Branham]

I went to community college. And just how do mid class.

[Unknown]

How do we determine whether is threatening a cat enough for it to be duress on Georgia Hardstark?

[Guy Branham]

Oh, because I. Because I'm in love and you can tell I have a fucking. If you have an Instagram and there's photos thing on it, then you can fucking kill someone if she cradles the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cat like a baby every day.

[Unknown]

Okay, so that is proof that Georgia actually felt like that would be terrible.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Unknown]

But you also have to ask if.

[Guy Branham]

I can do it.

[Unknown]

You also have to ask, would a reasonable person kill the secretary of the interior to save their cat?

[Guy Branham]

I would do it. Just someone go ahead and say, this is gonna be in my trial.

[Unknown]

But the other more interesting thing is mental state. And so I just wanted to talk about a little bit about not guilty by reason of insanity. How much does that actually come up in these horrible, horrible people that you guys discuss?

[Guy Branham]

The things I've been learning and reading about is that a lot of people try it and it's really easy to fucking. It's really easy to disprove.

[Unknown]

It.

[Guy Branham]

And the reality is it's really fucking hard to prove. And it's always an extreme case. Now you can't just. It's not as easy as people think it's going to be.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's the guy that, in Canada, I believe Winnipeg, took the machete to the other guy's head on the bus.

[Unknown]

The province of Winnipeg.

[Guy Branham]

Oh, Jesus. The cannibal episode.

[Unknown]

No, Winnipeg is a city. I was making sure.

[Guy Branham]

Don't do that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is Winnipeg a Manitoba?

[Unknown]

Yes, it is.

[Guy Branham]

Is this the cannibal episode?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, not cannibal. It's just the guy that went crazy on the Greyhound bus, remember? And he.

[Guy Branham]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Killed the guy sitting next to him and then just went crazy and. But didn't you.

[Guy Branham]

A little bit of him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, you're right.

[Guy Branham]

We had a cannibal episode in order. Pretending to do things.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. He ended up. It was by reason of insanity because he was technically, he was, I believe, schizophrenic, but not taking his medication because he, it was, it was like his family was basically judging him for being schizophrenic. Like, you can't be crazy.

[Guy Branham]

But based on that, though, like, if you're schizophrenic and you stop taking your meds, aren't you responsible for that? Like, you can't just stop taking your meds and kids kill someone.

[Unknown]

All right, this is.

[Guy Branham]

Tell us everything.

[Unknown]

Fascinating question.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is a 32 part question.

[Unknown]

It's been super hard. Also, have you guys done the Florida kid who ate the people in the garage yet?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Bath salts.

[Unknown]

I believe it was bath salts ate the face or was he on steroids? I don't know.

[Guy Branham]

He's ate the face on a highway.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Unknown]

He ate it in a garage. It may have been bath salts, but there's footage of him walking out of an Applebee's looking really weird.

[Guy Branham]

I mean, who doesn't look that weird when they walk out of an Applebee's?

[Unknown]

Save it for year 15. Anyway, so basically there have been like a couple of big theories about how do we figure out is this person crazy enough. And the first one started when a guy tried to kill the Prime Minister of Britain. And it's called the McNaughton Rule, which was the rule for like a really long time. And that comes down to could they not tell the difference between right and wrong? Which is like, that's sort of like the classic question. And it's also so weirdly subjective. And like in the 60s, we started moving towards this new thing called the Durham Test which was trying to be cool and scientific and more understanding of things. And the question was, was this a result of your mental illness? Was the act a result of your mental illness? And then the president got shot.

[Guy Branham]

Oh, right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Remember that for Jodie Foster.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And what's his name said not reasoned by guilty of insanity. And under the Durham test, he was judged not guilty by reason of insanity. And then every fucking state came back and passed laws that were like, fuck you, Durham test. And so some of them went back to the McDonald rule. Some of them went in the direction of this thing called the irresistible impulse test.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That sounds like a new Avon program, which is irresistible. It's kind of fruity with a. Stinks, a punch of blood.

[Unknown]

Irresistible impulse. He's kind of that guy. Like, the question is just. The classic question is, if there was a police officer standing by your elbow, would you still do it? And like Manitoba bus guy just feels.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, yeah, no, no, he absolutely was convinced that that guy was. Had a demon inside of him and he had to kill him.

[Guy Branham]

That's really great question.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And it's like you're in this other world and it doesn't matter who's at your elbow.

[Guy Branham]

They're on your side, you know, the cops on your side. And your fucking mind.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. You're trying to protect that cop is essentially the mentality.

[Unknown]

And that also goes towards that Magnotton idea of like, can you just not tell the difference between right and wrong?

[Guy Branham]

But it's like, like, you know, you got molested as a kid and so you think that's okay and you molest another your kid. It's like, that's right. That's what you're supposed to be doing. You know, in a fucking pedophile's mind.

[Unknown]

The thing is, is like a. It's at this point in time, it's super, super hard to get a not guilty by reason of insanity. And then there's also the thing of like, even if you do not guilty by reason of insanity, you're going to a mental hospital for what should be forever. Like what should be until you your cured. Cured. Though you guys recently had a horrifying story. Was it recent or. I just listened to it recently. I don't remember any of who went. Somebody who got a not guilty by reason of insanity and then got out like within a year, all of them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, I feel like it was. I think it was a little bit longer than a year. But our Greyhound bus guy is free now.

[Guy Branham]

Oh, right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is free now in Canada it's so charming. Yeah.

[Guy Branham]

And also, like, I always think of, like, mental facilities. Like, can I fucking go there for a week, please? But it's not like a yoga retreat. This is a fucking, like, shitty well.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, they don't exist anymore, Right? That's true. They don't.

[Unknown]

A friend of mine went to a women's jail in Japan.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Guy Branham]

Oh, my God.

[Unknown]

I always just imagine that as the most amazing spa. I just imagine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Was it all hello Kitty stuff?

[Unknown]

Fish and rice three times a day.

[Guy Branham]

Oh, my God.

[Unknown]

Light exercise size.

[Guy Branham]

Like.

[Unknown]

Like quiet taupe linen clothing.

[Guy Branham]

Very quiet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Shiseido facial bar.

[Guy Branham]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're just. There's a lot of exfoliating and gorgeous skin.

[Guy Branham]

Oh, the hair is just luscious.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But it's. It's so small. It's like a small cube. Yeah. I mean, like, my mom was a psychiatric nurse, a head nurse at a mental hospital. And when Proposition 13 passed and they closed most of the mental health facilities in Californ and I think across the nation. I can't remember, what if it was.

[Unknown]

State 13 was just California.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it was California.

[Unknown]

But I mean, that's something that has declined. Like, I think the Reagan administration cut funding for mental health and released a bunch of people.

[Guy Branham]

That's why there's a homeless fucking epidemic. Because these are all people who should be in mental health facilities. They should be taken care of and medicated and instead.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So that kind of thing. Where these days, if it's not guilty by reason of insanity, where do they send people?

[Unknown]

I mean, there are just like deeply overbooked state mental hospitals and some that are, I believe, specifically structured for people who have committed crimes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, okay.

[Guy Branham]

So it's like a wing at a prison almost.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, oh, oh, yeah.

[Unknown]

I think California has that. Oh, Folsom, I think, is where the sort of, like, mentally ill people who have committed crimes.

[Guy Branham]

Let's go there right now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's do a fulsome trip. You know what's funny? My mom used.

[Unknown]

So I may be totally wrong about that. And let's just remember I went to law school 16 years ago.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is my favorite murder where being wrong is so right. I was just gonna say really quick. There's a. There's a maximum security. It's a supermax prison called Pelican Bay that's up in way Northern California. And my mom used to go with her friend, Mrs. Manwiller. I can't remember her first name because Mrs. Manwiller was the kind of nurse. I think she was also a Psychiatric nurse. And she would go there and give, like, tests to the residents. For some reason, I can't remember what she was doing.

[Guy Branham]

Oh, my God, I want to talk to her so bad.

[Karen Kilgariff]

My mom would just go along and stay at the hotel, like, read a book and then they would, like, go to a fun dinner or I'm like, you're intentionally going to Pelican Bay, where, like, it's basically all about this super max prison. It's where they put.

[Guy Branham]

It's her vacay. It was her vacay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. And she was like, oh, of course I'll go. I'll just go up there with her.

[Guy Branham]

They have this great Italian place.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And meanwhile, inside the prison are, like, all. It's all the Hannibal Lectors of, like, California.

[Guy Branham]

Oh, my God.

[Unknown]

I want to know she didn't have to deal with you and your sister for the time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So true.

[Guy Branham]

So true.

[Unknown]

When I was in law school in Minnesota, they, like, took us to go see the prisons. And it's the weird thing of, like, I'm from California, where we have so, like, we just have so many of these things. Minnesota was big, basically. Just like there are two maximum security prisons. And one of them was, like 1800s. Clink. Kind of like that thing. And one of them was like, Oz.

[Guy Branham]

Like, state of the art.

[Unknown]

State of the art. There's like a bubble where you can run the whole place from there. And they were making, like, kindergarten mats. That was the thing that they did was they made little mats for kindergarteners.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, nice.

[Unknown]

And it was, you know, terrifying. It was legit terrifying to see what life there would be like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, we talked about this when we were both watching the Night of. We talk about it all the time, how it's like, we want them, people that do horrible things, to be locked away forever and no sentence seems long enough and all that stuff. Then you watch the Night of, and you're like, four minutes as a prisoner inside of any of those places is an absolute horror show nightmare. Like, then you start getting. It makes me think about it. The complexity of. Of when you get, you know, when you actually get found guilty for a crime like that, and you go away for 11 years because you did this thing, and you literally are delivered into the bowels of hell, and hopefully, hopefully, you stay alive. Like, that does count for something. We always want it to be 50 years or whatever, but, like, is 11 years enough when it's that level of suffering and fear and constant horror?

[Guy Branham]

Yeah, but what did you do to your victims that they Had a similar experience.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What I did to my victims. No, I know. No, absolutely.

[Guy Branham]

And it's also like. That's why I'm also so interested in, like, cases where it's like, did they get the right guy? Because the thought of walking in there and being like, I have 11 years and I didn't fucking do this.

[Unknown]

Nothing more horrifying than those stories of, yeah, I was in there for seven years and then, like, DNA, they got the DNA. Like, technology to figure out I couldn't have remotely done this.

[Guy Branham]

That's 100 years more, you know, it's not seven years as fucking dog ears.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's. I hate those stories so much. Wrongly accused is like.

[Guy Branham]

It's just, how do you convince people?

[Unknown]

So in that situation, you can sue for deprivation of your civil rights? I think if you can show sort of like. Like misconduct on the part of the. Or just sort of like, failure to do their jobs properly.

[Guy Branham]

On the part of diligence.

[Unknown]

Yes, on the part of prosecution.

[Guy Branham]

So, like, if someone else gets caught and convicted, then you can. You can. Like, if they find someone else's DNA and they let you go, it's one thing. But if they find someone else's DNA and they find that person and convict them, that you probably have more leeway.

[Unknown]

Well, what you would do is if they find DNA that relates to your case, then you would. There's a thing called, like, a habeas corpus act.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Where is it like, menses.

[Guy Branham]

Oh, my God, I got my menses on my habeas corpus day.

[Unknown]

Habeas corpus is just. It means, like, present the body. And the thing is, that's a proof.

[Guy Branham]

Sexy.

[Unknown]

A direct. Like a direct thing where you get to go to an appeals court and say, like, look, this means there's no possible way he did it. And like, those are the things that, like, people in jail are constantly trying to, like, perseverance pursue themselves. And you get occasional TV movies about the one guy who managed to, like, get himself out.

[Guy Branham]

The Innocence Project tries to do, too.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And don't you think that Beyonce should record a song called Present the Body.

[Guy Branham]

Where the chorus and then, like, in parentheses as habeas corpus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right, exactly. Or the chorus.

[Guy Branham]

Yeah, habeas chorus.

[Unknown]

So you should be. I mean, if there is DNA evidence of that sort, you should be. Be doing a better job of getting yourself out there than the state is doing of prosecuting somebody else.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, it's on you.

[Unknown]

It's on you. But also it should be able to happen quicker, I would think, than the State going and trying to get that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Other person from jail.

[Unknown]

We're saying there's an innocent person in jail, and then there is a person out there who actually committed the crime that like, the minute they find the DNA that couldn't possibly be yours, then your lawyer can file habeas corpus and the police will be. Or whoever it is, and the DNA experts will all be like, nope, nope, nope. And you can get that done. And it seems like finding the person and all of that, who actually did it, would be a longer process than the habeas corpus.

[Guy Branham]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't understand.

[Guy Branham]

That's a lot.

[Unknown]

I don't know that I understand.

[Guy Branham]

You sounded real smart just now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry, Are you just saying, as opposed to finding the guilty man, it's just proving it's not you.

[Unknown]

It's just proving it's not you. And like, it was just that. Yeah. George's question was like, basically, can there be two people in jail for the same murder at the same time and kind of no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, got it.

[Unknown]

Unless they were like, collaborated on it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, what about the. The guy who eventually got prosecuted by the Army?

[Guy Branham]

Oh, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did you hear that one?

[Guy Branham]

No, that Summer Lane.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's crazy. When we started talking about double jeopardy, but I mean, anytime. I'll just say a thing where I'm like, I'm pretty sure this is the word I should be saying, but I can't have like a debate about it. Cause I don't really know what I'm talking about. But it was, you know, you know, it.

[Guy Branham]

He got tried and convicted of a triple homicide that got overturned and he was declared innocent. Then they found years later, it's the Summerland Road murders. And then years later, they found DNA once DNA technology was around tying him to the murders. And so because they couldn't try him for double jeopardy because of double jeopardy, because he'd already been convicted and then deemed innocent. He had been in the army at the time, and so they reinstated him and then he was tried by one of the army people.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know what's it called in cis, Mark Harmon.

[Unknown]

Yeah, that's because those are different laws and different jurisdiction. No, because they're different laws because they're different jurisdictions.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right, but isn't that. So that doesn't count as double jeopardy if the army steps in and is like, we're going to try it over here.

[Unknown]

Yes, because he violated a different law for committing murder while a member of the army.

[Guy Branham]

Or if he had cross state law lines with a kidnap victim, he then the FBI and, or the, or the US could. Could try him. Right?

[Unknown]

Yeah. So it's an interesting thing that like you can't, I don't think you can be convicted of like, can you be convicted of both federal and state murder if they are, if it is both a federal and state murder? I would think so because there is a different requirement. But there is this thing where if all of the elements are of your crime are also all of the elements of a different crime, you can't be convicted for both of them. So like going back to me punching Steven.

[Guy Branham]

Uh oh, going back to that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What if Steven sues you? Just for this example.

[Guy Branham]

Threatened.

[Unknown]

All of the things that I did to punch Steven were battery, but they were in the situation where I killed him. It was also murder. Which means if you prosecute me for murder and I am convicted of murder, I cannot be convicted of the battery. That was, you know, that was part of it. So with that, I assume the thing is that like the failure was on the part of like the state law. Like because there was clearly some sort of technical failure in prosecuting it under the state law, you. He cannot be retried under the state. But all of the facts still occurred.

[Guy Branham]

I just wonder, as science and technology advances, should double jeopardy depend on compelling evidence when we someday can use DNA in the fucking 90s wasn't what it is today in the early 2000s. And so there's so many cases that they're going to find something bigger in 20, 20, 25 when we know more.

[Unknown]

And it is so hard. It is very, very hard when we constantly have new technology that gives us more information. And when you tried somebody under what criminal research was in 1984, you want to have another stab at it in 2016. But I believe in the idea of stabilizing, of limitations. Let's deal with it now. And you kind of have to deal with it under the terms of now and you can't go back. And it's hard with things like cold cases and stuff like that.

[Guy Branham]

And it's also up to the prosecution to decide if they actually have a case that they can win. So if you've done one, then you should fucking wait until you do. Which is why they don't try a.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Lot of weight though.

[Guy Branham]

Non body.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's one of your rights, right?

[Guy Branham]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Except for the fact that you've got the. Yes. Speedy trial. But the thing is a speedy trial only starts once they arrest you.

[Guy Branham]

It's like don't arrest someone until you.

[Unknown]

Yeah. And the thing that's interesting Is like, we knew she was dead in 1967, but if we get information that says, oh, so and so did it in 19 or in 2016, then you can go and get that guy. It's not like statute of limitations has told. Because. Wait, has it?

[Guy Branham]

I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I get it because it's murder.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not if it's right. Never for murder.

[Unknown]

Never for murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

But. Yeah, so like, you just kind of have to wait until you have enough stuff. That is a case.

[Guy Branham]

Yeah. Fuck, man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Fuck. Wow.

[Guy Branham]

I'm funny.

[Unknown]

This is horrifying. I've forgotten so much about this stuff.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Hi, you're welcome.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Welcome to our world.

[Unknown]

I'm sorry for all of your listeners who are like, wait, What?

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's only 500 lawyers out there that listen to this.

[Unknown]

Yeah, this is terrible. Also, all of it's the best.

[Guy Branham]

No, it's not.

[Unknown]

Well, no. But also the worst part about this is that I love giggling to myself about Karen calling Winnipeg a province or Manitoba a city. But now you're going to get all of the lawyers writing from millions of listeners.

[Guy Branham]

Have you seen our fucking lifters? They send us sweet honesty shit.

[Unknown]

They're going to make a quilt about how I got the law wrong.

[Guy Branham]

No, what's gonna happen is someone's gonna make a meme of a quilt. And it's adorable and charming and everyone loves you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I think this is so satisfying because basically, for a year straight, we've been throwing out what we think and kind of with the intention of, like, we'll probably get back around to this and have an answer eventually or whatever.

[Guy Branham]

But. And arguing like, well, this. Not arguing with each other, but like, saying, like, this should be this way. And it's like, well, here's why it's not that way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Guy Branham]

I like that.

[Unknown]

And the thing is, because I do, after law school, I was just so terrified every time I got behind the wheel of a car. Please let me not kill someone this time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, now I will be that way, too.

[Unknown]

But the paranoia of once you're in the criminal justice system is so horrifying and they have the right to take your life away from you. That I do. However annoying it may seem, I do really believe in all of those little constitutional things that are like, if you don't do it all right, then this person has to go. This person gets off. And watching the Supreme Court kind of like, scrape away at some of those things. Like, it used to be if anything remotely unkosher had happened in searching for something, that evidence was the Fruit of the poisonous tree and could never be used. And they've started to be a little bit more. Yeah. Even though you didn't have a warrant for him, it's fine that you got that. That terrifies me. Even though it's finding people who actually are guilty mostly of drug crime, stuff like that. I'm just like, I want all of the protections I can have so that the state can't throw me away forever.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. I think ultimately that's the thing. It's like once when we start talking about. Because we are talking about cases, most of the time, we're talking about cases where we know the person did it. So then when we opine, it's with a passion of, God damn it, these people have their lives taken away by this person who we know is bad because it's been proven somebody else did all the work. And we just get to say, yes, get rid of this person because they got rid of other people. And that sucks. But when we get into those cases where it's a question mark, you still have the same feelings of bad people should pay for ruining other people's lives.

[Guy Branham]

Well, it's interesting, guy, that you think of it from your side of being the person who's prosecuted where I think of it as being the victim and all the little things that I'll need to do. I have all of my day planners from the past five years. So if I ever need to say where I am or what I was doing or testify for somebody else or if I use my credit card. Every time I use my credit card at a fucking parking meter, I think, okay, well, this is going to be a trail of where I was that day in case something happens.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, it goes both ways, though, because it also could be a trail of something that proves you were at a parking meter instead of it.

[Guy Branham]

Like, I don't think. But I'm a white fucking female. Like, I'm not. I don't need to worry as much. Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown]

And I mean, it is that situation of like, I'm just not scared of incidental crime in the same way, like, somebody might rob me, you know? Or like there is random sort of. I'm also just not. I'm not the most bashable gay guy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So I feel like you're almost unbashable.

[Unknown]

Pah, pah, puh, Karen, let's not say that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's true.

[Unknown]

But it is like the. I think there's maybe, like, more randomness to the kind of crime and, like, why somebody might murder me than for women.

[Guy Branham]

You know, like, we're always vulnerable no matter what.

[Unknown]

But also the thing of. The weird thing about reading those cases and listening to your stuff is realizing that somebody can just, like, bounce into your world and for no reason, cause such horror and pain for just. For something that doesn't even make sense to me.

[Guy Branham]

And it's a shockwave of your family and friends and fucking peripheral people in your. It just pisses me off so much that these fucking assholes can take away so much by just having a fucking random feeling to kill someone or drug addiction.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or drug addiction often is just the dumbest. Like, they were on meth and they didn't know what they were doing, or they were on meth and it made them this crazy violent or whatever where it's just like. But there's all these people that don't do meth and live, you know, live legal lives.

[Unknown]

Well, I mean, the things where I do get into the mindset of the victim are more sort of like the evidentiary things of, like, if this person's not around, we don't get to rely on the. That fact. Fact that they can't. You know, that you're allowed to admit hearsay evidence for a dead person because they can't testify on their behalf.

[Guy Branham]

And you think that's not fair?

[Unknown]

No, I think it's wonderful. The best thing. There are parts of the law that feel like magic that really are just like such old, ancient magic. And my favorite one is you're dying of. Utterance is always admissible.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What?

[Unknown]

So your dying utterance.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What?

[Unknown]

Because the thing is.

[Guy Branham]

That's the name of this episode. Your dying utterance.

[Unknown]

It's hearsay. So hearsay is something. You can't testify about stuff that somebody told you. You can only testify about stuff that you experienced yourself.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fuck.

[Guy Branham]

Though.

[Unknown]

But when it is, you're dying utterance because there's no you around anymore. That is always admissible, at least just to be considered. Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It doesn't mean, like. It's just like, throw that in there with everything else.

[Guy Branham]

Why is that? Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Why?

[Guy Branham]

Okay, so my sister says to me, I'm really scared that my husband's gonna kill me. And I say that, and she gets killed. And I say that. That's hearsay.

[Unknown]

Um, yes, it's hearsay. But hearsay is admissible some of the time.

[Guy Branham]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But if you were, as she was dying, leaned over and she said it in your ear. He's the one that did it.

[Guy Branham]

That seems like, okay, that's fair. But that seems like the opposite of how it should be. Like she's been telling me this shit for years.

[Unknown]

Okay, well, the thing is, is like after your brother in law testifies about stuff, about how things were fine.

[Guy Branham]

Andy, I love you. I know you're not a murderer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I know we have to say that. I just. I just realized that the example sounds like not.

[Unknown]

I don't mean that you're allowed. I mean, there is something about how hearsay from dead people. There's a separate rule about hearsay from dead people being more admissible. But also you can admit hearsay to impeach his testimony. So if he says things were fine, Beth and I had the best of relationships, then we can bring Georgia to the stand. And Georgia says she told me 19 times and I wrote them down on the little pad in my kitchen. And the little pad from your kitchen is also admissible.

[Guy Branham]

Okay. Yeah, makes sense. I like that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And also emails these days which last forever.

[Unknown]

So wonderful.

[Guy Branham]

I'm keeping a fucking pad in my kitchen from now on and I'm writing down every time anything happens.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Good idea, right? Yeah. And then you can write a book, just intense detail of every single thing that happens to you.

[Unknown]

My mom has a situation that Karen kind of knows about that just like where she. There might come a situation where she needs to testify about something. And she's always just like, well, I put it on my pad.

[Guy Branham]

She's just got this.

[Unknown]

I wrote it down, guys.

[Guy Branham]

That's all you need.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She really does that?

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God. That's hilarious.

[Guy Branham]

That's why I keep my daily calendars. Is like, I'll remember something if I see that I went to this fucking doctor or whatever that year or that day.

[Unknown]

Having documents for stuff is just so exciting from a legal perspective perspective. You do discovery, that means the other side gets a copy of your calendar. So. So, so many copies.

[Guy Branham]

Oh, I went to court reporting school for a year. I fucking pretend to know this shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I would actually say too, that in almost like the inverted version of this that I think of is like, in my family, there was a ton of death when I was young. And it was all a lot of it, like surprising in one after the other. And that's when I just decided, I'm gonna do what I fucking want. Because when we talk about the random st. When we talk about being a woman and walking with fear at night or whatever it is, it's this thing where that is the deal of life. That is what being born into this life. That's the situation. It's the same. You know, it's different for different people for different reasons. But in general, we are all constantly at risk. We all have the specter of death hanging over us all the time. It's why some people love true crime. It's why some people love to paint. It's why some people can't stop jogging, whatever the fuck it is. But ultimately, I feel like I had this kind of weird realization as a young child who was like, this fucking sucks. And it could end at any second.

[Unknown]

Well, the thing of, like, it could be somebody with a machete on a bus or the amount of potassium in your system.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, exactly. So, like, so then why not be like, oh, sorry, I meant to tell you, I'm totally in love with you, or why not go do standup comedy that you're scared to death of doing? But why not do it? Because it's the thing in your heart that you want to do. Like, you might as well. This is your one fucking shot. And you can sit there lining up all the things that are the reasons why you should be scared, or you can go, well, I should be really scared, because this whole situation is really scary. So why be scared about the one thing I really want to do? Why not just fucking do it then? 2016.

[Guy Branham]

That's 2017.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's 2017, baby.

[Guy Branham]

2017 is how Karen is doing it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And everybody else, if you would like to join me. How long have we been talking? Eight hours.

[Guy Branham]

So long. Should we each do one murder from our cards? Our true crime cards?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Draw. Draw a murder. Like. Like, it's tarot cards.

[Guy Branham]

All right. I have a. I have a stack of these. These true crime playing cards that Steven Stephen Ray Morris gave us last week. We're each gonna draw one, okay. And we're gonna read about it. And it's just. It's just like playing cards. And it's murderer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, you guys.

[Guy Branham]

All right, so I'm gonna do one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Guy Branham]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[Steven Ray Morris]

And we're back. Well, it's kind of more of the same. It's just like all the things that we don't know are asking him about.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And what I love is Guy is.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Very humble in this, where he's just like, yes, I'm technically a lawyer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I passed the bar. You know what I mean? But it's like.

[Steven Ray Morris]

But I haven't talked about any of these things in 13 years. So you're kind of like pop quizzing me on a thing that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Steven Ray Morris]

As a very, very smart person, I Feel like I should know forever. But we're like, now, let's talk habeas corpus.

[Guy Branham]

And how come we're, like, mad at.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Him for the law somehow he knew all the answers, though. It was so impressive.

[Steven Ray Morris]

It was really impressive.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I was very much like, oh, this is why some people can graduate law school. And I would never. I don't have a memory like that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, it's like a.

[Steven Ray Morris]

It's a way your brain is set up.

[Guy Branham]

Totally.

[Steven Ray Morris]

I would imagine that he would tell us there's other things going on, but he definitely doesn't have, like, ADHD and any of those. Kind of like, I'm a mosquito and I. I think he's like a hyper focuser.

[Guy Branham]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which is. Which can be ADHD too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is that true?

[Guy Branham]

Yeah.

[Steven Ray Morris]

I mean, everybody's got it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Everyone has it.

[Guy Branham]

It can go that way for sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which, like, that's not mine. But okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But okay.

[Steven Ray Morris]

I think if there's anybody that should come back to the show, it's Guy Brandon.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Absolutely. We should have him back.

[Steven Ray Morris]

He should be like a guest host. When one of us is, like, sick.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or just can't do it.

[Guy Branham]

Oh, my God, he's.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Bring him in.

[Guy Branham]

Definitely. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Great.

[Guy Branham]

We've decided.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Boom.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, let's get into part three and let's hear what else he has to say. Smart person Guy Brenham. We're all feeling chill, relaxed, and effortlessly happy, right?

[Guy Branham]

Wrong.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's because mental health isn't seasonal. If you're feeling weighed down and need to talk to someone, that's not weakness. That is taking care of yourself. Therapy is a great way to process your feelings. And Talk Space is the leading virtual virtual therapy provider. Talkspace brings therapy to you so you can get support from the comfort and privacy of your home. Better mental health leads to better health overall. Just like your physical body needs exercise, your mental health needs maintenance and attention. Talkspace makes getting the help you need easy, accessible, and affordable. Plus, most insured members have a zero dollar copay. So when I miss a therapy session because I'm too busy or my therapist is out of town, I can tell in my mood and in my life that I am not doing as well. So you guys who have never done it, I can't imagine how hard your life is right now. Making your life harder by not going to therapy, I swear it makes life better. And as a listener of this podcast, you'll get $80 off your first month with Talkspace when you go to talkspace.com mfm and enter promo code space80. That's S, P A C E 80 to match with a licensed therapist today, go to talkspace.com mFM and enter promo code space80 to get $80 off your first month and show your support for the show.

[Guy Branham]

Goodbye.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Look, we all fantasize about going off the grid, unplugging, maybe spending some time as a trad. But let's be honest, we all need.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Reliable wireless, and that's where Visible comes in.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Visible is the ultimate wireless hack. It's unlimited wireless that puts you in control. You get unlimited data and hotspots so you can stay connected on the go.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Visible runs on Verizon's 5G network, so you get great coverage, fast speeds, seamless connection.

[Steven Ray Morris]

We're talking about access to 4K streaming.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The Visible Plus Pro plan is premium wireless without the premium cost.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Plus, it's all digital. You manage your plan in the app and you can even switch your service from your phone. It only takes about 15 minutes. Ready for wireless that lets you live in the know. Make the switch at visible.com plans starting at $25 a month for their best features.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Get the new Visible Plus Pro plan for $45 a month. Terms apply.

[Steven Ray Morris]

See visible.com for plan features and network management details.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye.

[Steven Ray Morris]

You know when your timer goes off in your dryer, so you go to pull your clothes out, but they're still wet.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's the kind of everyday chaos a home warranty from American Home Shield can help you with.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If covered parts of your H vac.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Electrical, plumbing, or appliances break, American Home Shield will fix or replace them, no matter their age.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So if your washing machine stops spinning or your dishwasher suddenly decides to retire, American Home Shield can send a qualified pro to diagnose and fix the covered issue.

[Steven Ray Morris]

And if the covered item can't be fixed, they'll help replace it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They even offer video chat as a benefit to some plans so you can connect with a repair expert and troubleshoot the issue in real time. You can't control when things break down, but you can be prepared.

[Steven Ray Morris]

American Home Shield has over 5050 years of experience. So yeah, they've seen it all.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And you can save money on a plan.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Today, our listeners get 20% off any plan.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Visit ahs.commfm to sign up and see promo details.

[Steven Ray Morris]

See ahs.comcontracts for coverage details, including limit amounts, fees, limitations and exclusions.

[Guy Branham]

Goodbye. Okay, who wants to go first? Karen, you sound excited. Should you go last? Guy seems disheartened. Guy, do you want to read reaches?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wait, hold on. I think this this Might be what now hold on.

[Guy Branham]

I said last.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, it's the McNaughton rules. Oh, I fucking just pulled the card. That's crazy. Okay, let me read this rules.

[Unknown]

We'll just.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We'll double check your work. In 1843, Daniel McNaughton, the Glasgow woodworker, shot the secretary to the British Prime Minister.

[Guy Branham]

That's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, guys, I have tingly tingles right now.

[Guy Branham]

Five packages of these and this is the one we open. And that's the one you fucking shut.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I wasn't looking. They were. They were upside down.

[Guy Branham]

This is not what is happening in life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He had intended to kill the Prime Minister, but was unclear as to his appearance at his trial. McNaughton, suffering from delusions of persecution, proclaimed the Tories route to get him. The jury found him to be insane and not responsible for the magnitude of his crime. He was to be sent to an institution. Concerned parliament members convened a panel of judges to. To explain this. Their answer forms the m' Naughton rules. Which colon. Which are this. Jurors are to be informed that the accused is presumed to be to be sane, as he or she is presumed to be innocent. To establish a defense on the basis of insanity, the accused must be disturbed enough to not know the nature and quality of what he or she did, or if knowing it to know it was wrong. Further, if the accused labors under partial delusion, only he or she must be considered in the sane situation as to responsibility, as if the facts with respect to the delusion were real. These British rules, commonly called the insanity defense, have been adopted in America and Canada and have been tested hundreds of times since their inception. In the cases of serial killers such as Ted Bundy. Edward Gein. I like when they call him Edward. Kenneth Bianchi and Jeffrey Dahmer. The atrocities committed have led defense lawyers to attempt to prove insanity. While this strategy was successful in the case of the obviously dysfunctional Gein, most such defenses prove futile because the sociopathic personality, while deviant in its desires, is often not out of touch with reality. And jurors usually decide that that a killer functional enough to hide his or her crimes can be presumed to be aware of wrongdoing. And I would just like to say that these are true crime series. This is from True Crime Series 4, Serial Killers and Mass Murderers by Valerie Jones and Peggy Collier Laney. And the art is by Paul Lee. Eclipse Enterprises, just in case anybody wants to. Oh, it's in Forestville, which is right by Petaluma.

[Unknown]

Who is Ed Gein again?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ed Gein is the one. One that basically killed several people. Women in his town killed his mother. Psycho was based on him as well as Silence of the Lambs. He's the one that made furniture. He wore his father's face.

[Guy Branham]

Is there a nipple belt? Yes. Nipple necklace.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A nipple belt, you're right. And he danced with his, like different parts of his mother under the moonlight. He was out of his gut mind.

[Unknown]

Do you guys hate the movie Copycat?

[Karen Kilgariff]

You mean with Sandra Bullock?

[Unknown]

No. What was the one with Harry Connick Jr. And Sigourney Weaver?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, I like that movie.

[Unknown]

Oh, really?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Unknown]

I always just thought that his serial killer ness was so dorky compared to actual serial killer ness.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He hadn't refined his acting style as he had eventually done in Hope Floats. But I enjoy everything that's happening also because it's in San Francisco, right?

[Unknown]

Yes, it is. And it's amazing. And Sigourney Weaver wears a lot of suits. And Holly. Sigourney Weaver and Holly Hunter. But I just. Anytime Karen, like, is just on board for an actor. Her love of Sandy Bullock.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm just like, when Sandy cries, I cry.

[Unknown]

How can Karen love this?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's in me.

[Steven Ray Morris]

I want to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Should do it.

[Guy Branham]

Yeah. She. I think you want someone to dig that out. And I think Sandra Bullock does it for you. Every.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She does it. But. But I have to say, like, not the proposal Sandy, where she's kind of so good. It's good. But that's. That's my. Sandy is more eight Weeks Notice.

[Guy Branham]

That's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I will watch eight Weeks notice. Yeah, anytime. Wherever it is. Beginning, middle or end.

[Guy Branham]

Okay. I feel the same way. I'm the same way with Steel Magnolias. Oh, and Sleeping with the Enemy. I will turn that on no matter what.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That movie is so good.

[Unknown]

Steel Magnolias just goes down so smooth. Like it just. It's so smooth.

[Guy Branham]

It's real tonic on a hot day.

[Unknown]

It's wonderful.

[Guy Branham]

Do you want to go last? Because you're the guest.

[Unknown]

Okay. When it's terrible, I feel like it will be an anti climax.

[Guy Branham]

Okay, here we go.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Guy Branham]

Richard Tingler Jr.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Guy Branham]

And it's like a really creepy drawing of like an alien. Alien trying to look like a man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He looks like he has plucked his eyebrows without using a mirror.

[Guy Branham]

Totally does. Richard Tingler Jr. Was an illegitimate child born in 1940. Not his fault. I just want to go ahead and point that out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Guy Branham]

His mother often taunted him for his, quote, sinful birth and beat him. What a fucking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, she started it I'm sorry.

[Guy Branham]

She totally started. He escaped home by enlisting in the air Force. In 1959, while stationed in Alaska. He went AWOL with a friend. With arrested for burglary in February 1961. He was released in Chillicothe, Ohio. Six months later, he was arrested on 13 counts of breaking and entering. Sentenced to one to 15 years in state prison and was paroled in August 64. He broke parole with more burglaries and returned to prison. On September 16th of that year. Four bodies, three male, were found shot to death in a Cleveland park. One month later, he robbed a dairy bar in. In Columbus. What's a dairy bar?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just like, people go there to drink milk.

[Guy Branham]

Just take shots of milk.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just drink milk.

[Guy Branham]

And I mean, cool. He strangled the manager into unconsciousness. And shot two teenage workers identified by the manager. He was indicted on six counts of murder. And became one of the FBI's most wanted. In November 68, using the alias Don Williams. Tingler secured work at an Oklahoma farm. 3-30-69. His photograph was broadcast in an episode of the FBI. Oh, my, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can we get fucking with some.

[Guy Branham]

There was a show called the FBI in 1969. Which we fucking need.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We need it.

[Guy Branham]

What? How has no one put it on the list?

[Unknown]

Video historians.

[Guy Branham]

Come on, let us have it. Put it on Amazon.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Television.

[Unknown]

Radio.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I was just gonna say we can go to the Museum of Television and Radio and watch it.

[Guy Branham]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Guy Branham]

Is this like. I don't know what that is. Is it like it's in Beverly Hills microfiche.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly. But with video.

[Guy Branham]

He vanishes in April. He's shot and he shoots and robs a middle aged man. Then goes home to erratic behavior. Attracted the attention, baby. FBI agents arrested Tingler in May. Extradited to face charges in Ohio. Is convicted of murder and sentenced to die. His sentence was commuted to life imprisonment when the death penalty was overturned.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Tingler.

[Guy Branham]

Kind of boring.

[Unknown]

I just wanted more insight. Like, I just. Oh, like his parents were unmarried. Is the only thing we got for why he did all of this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

When also just. You shoot four people. Like, what was that situation?

[Guy Branham]

I feel like they make him seem diabolical. And really he's just a like drifter who just like doesn't give. Who has no emotional attachment to people. It's not that like, but do we.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Know that, like, what was that four person murder?

[Guy Branham]

Yeah. It's just. It doesn't sound like he's got. He's got a soul. He's missing a chip. Yeah.

[Unknown]

Were there more drifters in the 60s.

[Guy Branham]

Do you think I feel like road car riders? Is that a thing?

[Karen Kilgariff]

You mean hippies?

[Guy Branham]

I feel like half the hippies were.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, I mean hippie.

[Guy Branham]

I feel like half the hippies were just. People are like fucking great. I get to do this and fuck hot hippie girls. Awesome. Hot runaways.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's very true. I think so called Charles Manson.

[Unknown]

Poor 70s runaways like it is, you stupid idiot. This show is such a beautiful tribute to runaways because I forget that they exist. And then it feels like every other episode there's a 14 year old girl who decides to strike out on her own.

[Guy Branham]

That's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, she either decides to strike on her own or the cops go, oh no, she ran away, but she'll come back.

[Guy Branham]

They make, they make hippies seem like such free spirits. And it's really just like kids from small towns who are like, I want to go do a thing. And they're like, oh shit. And then have to do terrible things to get money and survive. And they're like, I made a fucking huge mistake. And those videos of them dancing and having fun, it's like, no, you're having a terrible trip around a bunch of sober people.

[Unknown]

I feel like the core difference between hippies and hipsters was a graphic design degree from a decent school that allows you to have that studio apartment San Francisco or you know, Oakland or extended Brooklyn where you can be fine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The difference is whether or not you choose to be in the park.

[Guy Branham]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Are you sleeping in the park or did you just walk down to the park to get high?

[Guy Branham]

Right.

[Unknown]

Karen, let me tell you the most beautiful San Francisco story I have.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is it me too guy?

[Unknown]

I was in the. Yes, Steven, close your eyes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Include Georgia.

[Unknown]

Okay, So I was at. I went to the bathroom at the McDonald's that like abuts Golden Gate Park.

[Guy Branham]

Oh, Ben, that's where the amoeba is.

[Unknown]

Yes, exactly, exactly. Do you have Bay Area origins?

[Guy Branham]

Yes, I lived there for a while.

[Unknown]

Oh, okay. So I walked into the bathroom and there was the most adorable twink covered in. What's it going to be covered in? IV drug use tracks. He was shaving like barely there beard that he had. Cause he was an adorable twink.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What year?

[Unknown]

With 90.

[Guy Branham]

Oh, you said enough.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Really?

[Unknown]

Eight or like 2002.

[Guy Branham]

Oh, honey.

[Unknown]

And with a disposable razor. And then as he finished, he offered it to her. He was like, do you want to shave?

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I was like, oh, honey baby.

[Unknown]

No, I'm good. It was like, like, that's San Francisco. Like that Is San Francisco so especially.

[Guy Branham]

In the late 90s?

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You can't share razors. I told you.

[Guy Branham]

Not a thing I want to keep talking about in San Francisco in the 90s. But that's another episode.

[Unknown]

Should I read Lou Gong?

[Guy Branham]

That's for the end of night of 2017.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's right. Were we doing all San Francisco episode of just terrible stories of what a bummer it was. Me stealing toilet paper from bars. Just a dark time.

[Unknown]

Me going to Berkeley and being scared to go into the city. The core question of my first years of stand up were do I have 375 to get to the city?

[Guy Branham]

Oh, my gosh.

[Unknown]

Lou Gong was born in 1963 in Beijing, China, one of three children. His father was a clerk and his mother was a doctor. Good for them. Feminism.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Unknown]

Timid child. His math skills blossomed in junior high and he won academic awards and eventual admission to Beijing University. Upon graduation in 1985, he entered the University of Iowa to study physics. Oh, this is a terrible. We're taking a Chinese guy to America's heartland, to where all of our serial killers are.

[Guy Branham]

But nothing happened, right? Everything was fine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's the guy on the card, though.

[Unknown]

We'll see. Upon graduation in 1985 at the University of Iowa, 1987, he took two mates at his tiny apartment. But both found him slovenly and superior. He was a loner, bad tempered and not well liked. He became a graduate assistant and qualified for a PhD program.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can I guess? Jesus, this guy's going to be a shooter. That was my guess.

[Guy Branham]

Kill his teacher for giving him a bad grade.

[Unknown]

In the summer of 1987, an IU professor took lugong to an international conference in Europe. Upon his return, he became disenchanted with physics. That happens to all of us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Me too. Yeah.

[Unknown]

And his scores began to fail. He also began to pay prostitutes for companionship. Nothing wrong with that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just hand.

[Unknown]

In 1991, a large cash award he had hoped for was granted instead to a rival. He was incensed and began to file complaints. He also bought a gun.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Bought a gun. Here we go. Here we go. Bought a gun.

[Unknown]

He received his doctorate, but still complained of a conspiracy against him.

[Guy Branham]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nope.

[Guy Branham]

None.

[Unknown]

No. Just go get tanger somewhere. In September 1991, Lou Gong closed out his savings account, packed up his belongings and sent them home. On November 1, he walked into a graduate seminar and he shot his professor.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God. It's like everybody wins on this one.

[Unknown]

And the professor's protege.

[Guy Branham]

I win.

[Unknown]

He calmly reloaded walked into the department chairman's office and killed him. As students called 911, Lugong killed the university associate vice president and the woman who had been handling the crime. Have we never heard about this poor administrative official?

[Guy Branham]

Oh, my God.

[Unknown]

Wounded her secretary.

[Guy Branham]

No, I've been a secretary. That sucks.

[Unknown]

Then he went to an empty.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She doesn't even get like, any of the glory of, like, I'm a professor of this.

[Guy Branham]

She wanted to go home and watch fucking Nash Bridges and have a fucking white line.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All she did was file.

[Unknown]

Then he went to an empty room and killed himself. The six victim murder spree and suicide took 20 minutes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wait, what year was it like in the 80s? Was he one of the first.

[Unknown]

91.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Was he like one of the first college shooters? I wonder. Oh, no. I mean, aside from.

[Guy Branham]

Though, I wonder, do they. It's not at a college. Do they call it a college shooting?

[Unknown]

Yeah, no, it was at a college. It was at the University of Iowa.

[Guy Branham]

Oh, my God. That was crazy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was crazy.

[Guy Branham]

Oh, God. Everything's the worst.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It always ends this way.

[Guy Branham]

Can we have a good thing? Because I'm really, like, this week has been shitty because I'm looking at Facebook too much and like reading all these horrible fucking headlines and like, fucking Aleppo and all this crazy awful shit's happening.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, let's talk about a good thing this week.

[Guy Branham]

I don't have all of that. Do you guys have.

[Unknown]

I have a fake good thing that is just me taking. Attempting to leverage your ridiculous success and make it beneficial for me. But Georgia Hardstark is probably going to be guesting on my podcast, Pop Rocket in January.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Oh, nice.

[Unknown]

I'm sorry. And also, let me be clear. When I said to Karen, hey, maybe I could come on and explain some legal things, it was not just me trying to get on your astoundingly successful city. There was me. Yeah. What? Like, look, when we all listen to podcasts, we all want to yell back at the podcast, which is essentially the only reason I listen to podcasts who are just my friends.

[Guy Branham]

You're making me look important and I'm gonna Instagram it. That's great. We both win.

[Unknown]

You'll get to talk about non. You'll get to talk about murder things, but you'll also get to talk about some fun non murder things.

[Guy Branham]

I don't know anything about non murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, we have a little information now. So going forward, whenever these things come up, at least. Least going to be like, I think this was that thing guy was talking.

[Guy Branham]

About, however, and we can, like, know what we're.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's exactly right. And we'll start wearing office outfits. I would say my good thing for the week is that I am lucky enough, and I mentioned this on our last episode, to be working on Guy Branham's new show for TruTV called Talk show the Game Show. And we sit in a room. It's actually very much like the My Favorite Murder Family because we sit in a room with Jamie Lee from our Bell House episode.

[Guy Branham]

Oh, God, I love that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's the greatest. And Louis Katz, who is so hilarious. And Chase Bernstein, who is a hilarious standup comic, who is our writer's assistant. And we sit in that room, and we spend, you know, 45 minutes working on the script we're supposed to get done relatively soon. And then we spend the rest of the day laughing our asses off and very actively talking about, like, it'll start. The discussion starts about what we need to figure out for the thing, and it'll always end up in, like, some kind of inner standup theorizing. That is so hilarious. And I just feel grateful that I have a job that instead of draining me of my lifeblood, it actually. The time goes by so fast, and it is so enjoyable and the opposite of stressful for fucking once.

[Unknown]

It is the most fun. And I find so fascinating that headspace where you're trying to find something to be depressed or scared or sad about. Like, a friend of mine was recently just, like, obsessing about the possibility that he might die. And I'm like, you will die. But the thing is, he's happy. He's happy. And he's trying to figure out a reason that he doesn't deserve to be happy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, it's scary to be happy.

[Unknown]

So he's, like, imagining that we'll be taken away from him. And I think there is something so fascinating about that dynamic.

[Guy Branham]

Yeah. Or that mindset of, like, that's where you're going right now, and you don't. Really. Don't have to. I beat myself up about that a lot.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, it's hard.

[Guy Branham]

It's hard.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, and the funny.

[Unknown]

I think the good thing that we have is that we're all full of sparkling wine, which is the most fun.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not me. I'm the opposite of full of sparkling wine. But also, the thing is, Guy keeps talking about where, like, he'll talk about in preparation for when it all goes bad. Like, you keep bringing that up to me, and it's so hilarious to me where it's like, we almost don't even have time for this all to go bad. It's gonna be done so quickly.

[Unknown]

Yeah. But I think a big basic degree of paranoia is something. The lovely thing about LA is you've seen so many untalented people get amazing.

[Guy Branham]

Opportunities over and over and over.

[Unknown]

It's so weird. I don't know if I've ever told you this, but I just think the most hilarious thing is that the most negative person on the planet, Karen Kilgera, who will scoff at anyone's sort of little project, that her second podcast is a rousing success.

[Guy Branham]

It goes against her personality is what you're saying?

[Unknown]

Yes, it completely goes against her personality. Like Karen Kilgariff is a person whose deepest soul is going a second podcast.

[Guy Branham]

I love it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I tried not to start it, but.

[Guy Branham]

But I was so persistent.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We really just had. We had to make it happen. This was delightful. Thank you so much.

[Unknown]

Thanks so much for letting me cross over into the world of my fans favorite murder. Because at 50 episodes or how many episodes is it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

This will be 49, I think.

[Unknown]

Yeah. It's been beautiful being taken through those hundred stories and it's very fun to get to crossover and get to play with you guys.

[Guy Branham]

We always say how nice it is when people. We like the podcast.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's so.

[Guy Branham]

That's really cool.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And if you guys haven't already, please listen to the podcast Pop Rocket. It is so awesome. They talk about pop culture stuff, but it's a, it's a.

[Unknown]

It's a discussion as ill informed as this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I. It feels like it's very. It felt very produced to me when I was on it where I was almost a little bit like, I don't know if I have the right answer. And you're just like, I'm asking you your opinion. It's like everybody felt very. They had big opinions about things. I was like, I don't know if I have opinions.

[Guy Branham]

You just gotta get loud and get sparkly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. I can't.

[Guy Branham]

I know. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks to Steven Ray Morris of the Purrrcast for being our amazing audio engineer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, thank you.

[Guy Branham]

He's who I'm thankful for this week because when I go out of town, which is a fucking anxiety ridden thing for me because I hate leaving the cats. The fact that he now takes care of them like fills my heart with joy because they love him and that. It makes it less anxious for me to go away.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's awesome. You got one.

[Guy Branham]

Yeah, yeah. Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Very good.

[Guy Branham]

You got. I don't know Go to my favorite murder and do stuff.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, go on. Oh, my God. There's games and puzzles, and you can join the raffle. It's gonna be so awesome. Thanks, you guys, for listening.

[Guy Branham]

Happy New Year.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Happy New Year. Thank you for being here with us all through 2016. We've had a great time.

[Guy Branham]

2017, we're gonna pepper spray.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, it's a good thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Guy Branham]

I mean, in a good way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's not a positive.

[Guy Branham]

Like, we're gonna kick it. We're gonna kick it. You know what I mean? Like, we're gonna pepper spray it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, let's 17.

[Guy Branham]

We're gonna make it our bitch.

[Unknown]

We're gonna take keys between the knuckles. Two 2017's bowl.

[Guy Branham]

Thank you, guys. Stay sexy and don't get murdered.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Bye, Elvis.

[Guy Branham]

You want a cookie? Want a cookie? There we go.

[Unknown]

You guys actually do that? I always assumed there was just, like, one track of it.

[Guy Branham]

Why do you think he sits out here? Because he fucking knows what's gonna happen. He comes over here and he. He knows.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, that's fun. And we also got into some playing cards, some true crime cards that Steven got us.

[Guy Branham]

I still have those.

[Steven Ray Morris]

I mean, we were really working. We were really producing this show in a whole new way where we're like, I guess we'll bullshit, ask you questions, and then we better end with something else. We had those cards.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's like a variety show all of a sudden.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, we did it.

[Steven Ray Morris]

We can produce whatever.

[Guy Branham]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thanks, Steven.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Thanks, Steven, for giving us those cards.

[Guy Branham]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So this episode, as we told you.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Was originally titled the Great Guy Law Time New Year Spectacular.

[Guy Branham]

I like that, though, a lot.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I think it's good. But we could also call it don't half ass it, which I don't. I don't think we did. I think we whole asked it on this episode.

[Steven Ray Morris]

I mean, we asked all around. He, you know, Guy delivered it at one point. I reassure Guy, this is my favorite murder where being wrong is so right. So we could name it Being wrong is so right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cause it's fucking true.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Than Dying Utterance, which I say that. I say it should be the name of the episode. Because I'm like, I love that phrase.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Yeah. I do love that it's admissible in court like that. That idea, as it should be very compelling. I mean, how many more legal concepts are there out there that we don't know about?

[Guy Branham]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That were made up in, like, the 1950s and make no fucking sense, but, like, some random person used it to.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Get off and then lawyers since that time are like, may I quote?

[Guy Branham]

Yeah.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Dying Utterance v. The people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hey, you know, you know what we're going to find out next time Guy is a guest on this show.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Steven Ray Morris]

We can get all those legal.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you have legal questions?

[Steven Ray Morris]

Are you up against it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Write in and let us know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let us know your legal questions in the comments. Name names.

[Guy Branham]

No names. Name names.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Give us phone numbers.

[Guy Branham]

We'll call and ask.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It'll be so much fun.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's gonna be so good.

[Steven Ray Morris]

All right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, that was the rewind for this episode.

[Steven Ray Morris]

It's like rewinding a weird episode is a weird experience.

[Guy Branham]

It is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't have. Yeah, we don't have much to say because we set it up it all.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In the episode because we invited someone else that would say it all so we wouldn't have to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Exactly.

[Guy Branham]

And we didn't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it worked. It was great. All right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Stay sexy and don't get murdered.

[Guy Branham]

Goodbye, Elvis.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you want a cookie?