Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 55: Let's Hear Your Podcast

Summary

Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 55: "Let's Hear Your Podcast"

Introduction

In this episode of Rewind with Karen & Georgia, hosts Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark revisit and dissect their own past podcast episode number 55, originally aired on February 9, 2017. The duo delves into their early days of podcasting, reflecting on their growth, the challenges they faced, and the intriguing true crime stories they covered.

Reflecting on Episode 55's Intro

Karen and Georgia begin by listening to the original intro of episode 55, reminiscing about the awkward beginnings of their podcast. They humorously discuss their struggle to start the show, mentioning, “[02:06] Karen Kilgariff: Let’s hear your podcast after the colon of that would be Shut the fuck up Facebook. Or something along those lines.”

Critical Discussion on the Slender Man Documentary

A significant portion of their discussion centers around the Slender Man documentary directed by Julie Klausner. Both hosts express their disappointment and critique the documentary's approach to blending folklore with real-life tragedy. Georgia shares her thoughts, stating, “[05:18] I didn’t love it. The folklore of the Slender Man just wasn’t compelling to me; it was too focused on the real people's psychological issues.”

Karen adds her perspective on the fictional nature of Slender Man, contrasting it with traditional folklore, “[06:40] Slender man is the fakest of all of those… Because I never heard one hint or hair of Slender Man when I was growing up.”

Deep Dive into the Christine and Leah Papin Murder Case

Karen recounts the harrowing story of Christine and Leah Papin, two maids who brutally murdered their employers in France in 1933. She narrates the gruesome details of the crime scene, the ensuing police investigation, and the eventual trial. At [23:22], Karen vividly describes the scene: “[23:22] Georgie Hardstark: She just cracked her fingers. [23:23] Karen Kilgariff: Oh, yeah, that's me cracking my knuckles.”

The hosts explore the psychological dynamics between the sisters, introducing the concept of folie à deux—a shared psychosis influencing both individuals. Karen muses, “[47:03] They believe they also. One of the... that the defense psychologist suggests that they were going through something called hystero epilepsy.”

Examination of the Sam Shepard Case

Transitioning to another infamous case, Georgia presents the story of Dr. Sam Shepard, whose wife Marilyn was brutally murdered in 1954. The narrative covers the initial investigation, the trial, and the controversies surrounding Shepard's conviction. At [62:48], Karen points out inconsistencies in Shepard's account: “[62:48] Georgia Hardstark: So there's blood spatters on the watch, but not stains.”

They discuss the compelling but dubious evidence that led to Shepard's conviction, citing expert opinions that label the case as a potential wrongful imprisonment. Karen reflects, “[66:02] Georgia: So he loses that case…”

Analysis of Trial Proceedings and Psychological Assessments

The conversation delves into the trial dynamics, highlighting the media frenzy and the psychological evaluations of the accused. Georgia remarks on the flawed due process, “[75:47] Georgia Hardstark: He called the trial a mockery of justice and that Shepard shredding the 14th Amendment right to due process.”

They analyze the defense strategies and the improbabilities surrounding the evidence presented, questioning the reliability of the conviction.

The Complexity of Cold Cases and Unsolved Mysteries

Karen and Georgia grapple with the complexities of cold cases, emphasizing the perpetual uncertainty surrounding such mysteries. Karen states, “[54:26] Georgia Hardstark: I wish there was an update to this case because would we ever know the real reason…”

They express a desire for closure and the difficulties inherent in resolving historical cases with limited evidence.

Concluding Thoughts and Episode Retitling Discussion

As the episode wraps up, the hosts reflect on their personal and professional growth since the original airing of episode 55. They brainstorm potential new titles for the retrospective episode, considering options like "The Furniture Hour" and "Reel up in Arms." Karen humorously concludes, “[93:56] Karen Kilgariff: Ladies and gentlemen, stay sexy and don't get murdered.”

Notable Quotes

• Karen Kilgariff [02:06]: "Let’s hear your podcast after the colon of that would be Shut the fuck up Facebook. Or something along those lines."

• Georgia Hardstark [05:18]: "I didn’t love it. The folklore of the Slender Man just wasn’t compelling to me; it was too focused on the real people's psychological issues."

• Karen Kilgariff [06:40]: "Slender man is the fakest of all of those… Because I never heard one hint or hair of Slender Man when I was growing up."

• Georgia Hardstark [62:48]: "So there's blood spatters on the watch, but not stains."

• Karen Kilgariff [75:47]: "He called the trial a mockery of justice and that Shepard shredding the 14th Amendment right to due process."

• Karen Kilgariff [54:26]: "I wish there was an update to this case because would we ever know the real reason…"

• Karen Kilgariff [93:56]: "Ladies and gentlemen, stay sexy and don't get murdered."

Conclusion

This episode of Rewind with Karen & Georgia offers a compelling look back at their early podcasting days, intertwined with deep explorations of two notorious true crime cases. Through their candid discussions and humorous banter, Karen and Georgia provide both entertainment and insightful analysis, making this a must-listen for fans of the show and true crime enthusiasts alike.

Transcript

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is exactly right. Have you heard the story of the 17 children that unexpectedly disappeared at exactly 2:17am they all got out of bed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

At the exact same time, walked outside into the darkness and never came back.

[Karen Kilgariff]

From Zach Kreger, director of Barbarian and the studio that brought you the conjuring comes the movie Weapons, a new horror thriller so twisted you have to experience it to believe it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Weapons only in theaters and in IMAX Aug 8.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Rated R. Under 17 not admitted without parent Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

Today our listeners get 20% off any plan.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

See ahs.comcontracts for coverage details, including limit amounts, features, fees, limitations and exclusions. Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

Every Wednesday we recap our old shows with all new commentary and updates and insights.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Today we're recapping episode 55.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's hear your podcast after the colon of that would be Shut the fuck up Facebook. Or something along those lines.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's hear your podcast. Oh yeah, all this feedback for sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, so this episode came out February 9, 2017.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Aw, little baby.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So long ago.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's listen to the intro of episode 55.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hi, how are you?

[Georgia Hardstark]

How are you?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hi. Is that supposed to sound conversational or just in tune? Like simultaneous?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can I be honest? I don't know what we're doing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't either, but I like the arm raise part. I think it's kind of like a.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And we're off like a conduct, but like we're conductors I'm an extra. Yeah. A murder orchestra.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Now, I think this is, like, episode 55, and we still haven't figured out how to start this stupid podcast, but really, it's space.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's like episode three, though, because this is the third episode in my new apartment. That's right. Like, third or second?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I. Three. Third.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ish.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Third. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So we're getting used to it, you know? Like, we don't know. It's just different.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Feel it out. It's definitely different.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's different. I can see the kitchen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm staring at. There's totally new blinds.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Weird.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's big. It's definitely a bigger space.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It feels like we have to fill more.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It doesn't feel like mine yet. So, like, we're podcasting at a stranger's house.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, I don't want to spill anything on the couch.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I love this couch, by the way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's really good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I want it. I got a deal on it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, you're. It's very smart of you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ikea, guys.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hey. Hi.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hi. Oh, hi.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is the Furniture Hour.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is Introspection Evening.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is Apartment Introspection.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I would like to say, just as a kicker offer, I got in a lot of trouble that I haven't yet watched the Slender man documentary from one Ms. Julie Klausner.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Really?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Who I saw last week because she did Guy's show when I was working on it, and it was the first thing she said to me is, oh, my God, can you believe this?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't you love that about people now? Is that the first thing they talk to you about is murder, and they're.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So mad when you don't know what they're talking about or that you haven't watched it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, can I just say, love, Julie Klausner. Her book, I Don't Care about yout Man. Amazing. She's fucking. That was the stupidest fucking documentary.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ooh, Girl, dude. Yes. It just was, like, shots fired. Shots Fired.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was a really cool documentary about psychological issues that the two girls who stabbed the shit out of their friend had.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But as far as, like, the folklore of the Slender man, it just, like, wasn't compelling. It was cool. Like, there were two different documentaries. One was about, like, creepypasta and, like, cool stories that people online write about, like, creepy things.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And one was about two girls who have some serious mental issues.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So I just didn't love it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Were you looking for more of that Slenderman folklore story and you and it just was too much of real people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I knew I already. I went in knowing it wouldn't be. That I wouldn't be happy with it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cause I'd read about it a lot. And like, I love the old like black and white photos that like purportedly show Slender man in the background and it's fucking cool as shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Slender man is the fakest of all of those. Like first of all, creepypasta. I want to get into it and anytime, you know, like last podcast on the left has episodes where they read listeners creepypastas. And I can practically see the 14 year old boy writing it at his desk like it is so. Because you get kind of hooked in. There was one, I remember one not on that podcast, but one time reading by myself at home. And it was about these guys that had found this hole. And on the website, I think I may have found it on Reddit. I can't remember where it was like guys who found a hole that they kept going into. They were like basically caving and then it's like they basically climbed in at one point really far and kind of got stuck. And then something came at them in the end.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, they're like, they're made up horror stories or like creepy stories. And that's cool. But yeah, it's like a little.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, the problem is that with all storytelling, the hardest part is the ending. The hardest part is why are you telling this whole thing? What is it going to lead up to?

[Georgia Hardstark]

And commas, which are.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're lacking endings and commas and maybe accurate spelling.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Accurate spelling and punctuation.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The whole thing is basically a visit to a junior high class I never had to be in because I'm too old.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If I were 20 and I could read this shit and the Internet existed in its form now, I would be so obsessed. But I'm not and I can't and I won't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And for this Slender man, it's like, well, I never heard one hint or hair of Slender man when I was growing up. Which means this isn't even based in reality. It's not like an old witch that. It's like, did you hear about that? Did you hear about the Blair witch?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Bloody Mary, Bloody Mary.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did you hear tell this is Slenderman is as. It's almost like they did some test focused groups at the mall of like, what would scare you? A really tall skinny man in the back of the playground.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hot Topic.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which like, I work there. I'm not trying to talk. I am talking shit. But I work there. Too. So fuck you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's kind of like Jack Skellington's head got stretched.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Instead of Jack Skellington being sweet with a big round punk and head, his head got stretched and he turned strangely evil and he just decided to lurk.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What? The best part of this documentary to me was the girl who ends up having, like, serious mental issues that stab their friend. Which I think is an interesting story if you're into true crime. The mother, her mother that they interview, like, there's something mentally wrong with her. Like, she's kind of like, crazy in a really subtle way. And like, that study to me, like, watch it if you're into that. Like, and tell me what's going on there. Because she's trying to be so empathetic, but it's so creepy and not right. It's like if Ted Bundy were trying to be empathetic. Like when he has that weird interview and you're like, something is off here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wait, hold on. Knock, knock, knock. Yes? Who is it? Oh, we are being sued by the mother of the Slender man child murderer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I didn't say her fucking name, man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, I didn't say her name.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Slenderman.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, but also, isn't that what everybody's watching any of those things for is like, basically, you're the armchair psychologist and you're watching because it's like, yeah, you're right. Two kids, two 12 year old girls. As intense as being in junior high for girls is. And I will literally and truly, we've talked about it a million times, would not go back for $5 million. I would never go back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, 5 million, a lot of money. No, you would spend it by the time you got to our age.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's stupid.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fucking idiot. When you're older.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But it doesn't happen out of nowhere. And so there are those weird combinations of things that happen if, like, if you don't have. I'm like, thank God I had an older sister that told me to shut up all the time. Because then I actually did shut up some of the time. And so I didn't suffer 99% of the time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Thank God I had a mom and a sister who made me feel so bad about myself that I was scared to say anything.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And so I didn't say most of the shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, it's true.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean. Yeah. Also turns out Worcester is not. It's Worcester. Did you know that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I wouldn't have known it from spelling.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's Worchester.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's spelled Worchester.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it's pronounced Worcester.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wooster. I think you have to do the like. Wooster.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. You have to talk like Marky Mark Wahlberg.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I didn't know. How am I supposed to know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

We are from California.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

People who live in Boston or from Boston get real up in arms about Worcester.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Worcester. That's corrections corner.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you have any?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not offhand. I think we totally nailed it last week. There's not one thing that we said incorrect.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Except Worcester.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Except Worcester. Also, I haven't, admittedly. I've been working so much that I haven't been able to be online or make any mistakes. Or make mistakes. I've just been. I nail it, you know, I feel like when I work, I just nail it constantly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, you don't have time to think and so your brain isn't like second guessing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't get in my own way. I just like naturally good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're the best when you're just being you. You guys always be you. Unless you're a murderer. Isn't that a meme?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Is it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That you just made up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Always be your. No, it's like. It's not mine. Always be yourself. Unless you're a murderer. Then don't be yourself. I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's hilarious and catchy. It should be one. If it's not, I'll tell if you're.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Making fun of me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I am. Absolutely.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Good. Good. That was a lot.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do we have to talk about this tour? We are now basically like the Eagles where we're on tour every weekend. We had a meeting where we found out how many more tour dates are coming. If you live in some part of the United. Where we are not like on record as to be visiting yet, then you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can stop tweeting at us. Come to South Carolina. We'll probably.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Don't be mad at us just because we're in this part of. We're not. It's not about that. Texas, we hear you. Texas, we hear you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This isn't the one. This isn't the only one. Hopefully. Fingers crossed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There seems to be so much more that as we were having that meeting and we were making these plans, I was like, I have to get my teeth fixed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I have to get my teeth fixed so that I'm not on a plane. And somehow some too. I have that. That's my anxiety of we're gonna be traveling and I'm gonna be in some weird place and then all of a.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sudden it's like mine is that I'm Gonna die in a weird place just.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, oh, suddenly you're just dead.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. That I'm gonna die or that Vince is gonna die and we're like. The thought of someone dying when you're not close to them or you dying and you're far away is so much worse to me than like, Than dying in the same city.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Somehow that's worse than someone dying directly next to you with their eyes open, staring at you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Like, at least they can be next to you the whole time instead of, like, having to go through the airport security and you being. And I can't do anything to help and like, ugh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, there's no. Yeah, there's nothing good about it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Traveling is going to be fun with me, Karen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, I feel like we should start stockpiling filing pills now. Yeah, just like, whatever pills we can get our hands on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, don't send us your Etsy merch.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We want pills.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Unless you're adding.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is this illegal?

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're not fucking sending it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, or, or, or, or because we have these feelings and we know about them, that we're gonna have, like, very peak experiences. Because it's like, whoa, we lived and that was fun. And we. And we saw that one river and everything was fine. And everything was fine. And then we got back home.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, that's my. Like, I mean, I work on this lawn therapy where it's like, what, like, what if you get home and everything was fine? Aren't you going to be bummed that you were worrying the whole time? Like, what a waste of this fucking incredible experience.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Also, I'm going to leave a note in every hotel Bible. I don't know. Why?

[Karen Kilgariff]

What, what's it going to say?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know. I just, like, that's my, like, plan to get excited about something. I'm going to leave a note in every hotel Bible, hotel room that I stay in in their Bible.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can I make a suggestion?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What if you just draw a middle finger? Like just a drawing of just a hand flipping off your middle finger.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or my correct middle finger. Wait, remember, we got.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A huge fight.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's right. One of our big fights.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The nervous fights. I mean, I'm not. I wonder. I'm not going to draw in a Bible. I'm going to put a post it note in a Bible.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A post it note of a middle finger.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fair. I don't know why that's the first thing that popped in my head. I went to Catholic school, so maybe it was Just like, worst case scenario.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Or a big Jewish star. We got it first.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Make it put a Jewish star right where the New Testament starts.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. As if to say it just start doesn't exist.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like a stop sign.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But it's a Jewish star. What if in the beginning where it says the bi. You know, do they have an opening like the Bible written by. I'll just put a. I'll just change it to the Torah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

People are like, what the hell?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, the Torah, actually. I'll write that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it actually.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sorry. What if I just put I'm sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is a Torah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's a couple people that have tweeted us and they figured out how to write I'm sorry. And the I'm is tiny. I don't know how they did that. Do you how the text of I'm is really small, like, legitimately?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. I don't know how they did that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't either. It was pretty cool. Someone actually tweeted us and it said, I'm sure someone's already done this, but look. And then it said, I'm sorry.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I bet it says, fucking young creepypasta. Fucking Slenderman kids who know how to work the Internet. Like, we don't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's some 14 year old boy who we had been shitting on who was like, but I made the I'm sorry text for you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He stopped listening five minutes. Was it five minutes ago? Because he was like, oh, I'm not wanted here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

One hot tear burning down his cheek. Oh, honey, come back underneath his transition lenses.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Listen, we're your mothers. We're trying to make you get out and fucking play in the street.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. Please play in the street.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Go talk to strangers. Get to know people. Don't sitting home and, like, write Slenderman fucking cosplay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're like, but this whole time you've been telling me to stay at home and not talk to strangers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not cosplay anybody. What's the one where they were like, Kermit and, like, Gonzo bone each other?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, like erotic fan fiction. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My God, I'm aging myself so much.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Dude, we might die before this tour even starts. Let's get honest.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right. Should we start this thing? All right, we're back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're back. We're in the pod loft now. Permanently.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Your pod loft dream has come true. You're in there. You put all that stuff up on the wall.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I've got the cats, which just. That's the thing that makes it home. Right. Like that moment when you're moving and you bring your pets over.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And you're like, this is where you live now. And you watch them smell stuff. And that's how you know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, right. That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, did you ever watch the Slender man documentary? Me?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, I mean, I know we talked about it, but like that story and those girls that going that far because they're in this exactly that age where you're so weird and you get the craziest ideas and you are trying to find who you are and it's just like. And no one stepped in to go, enough of this already.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And you're so susceptible to suggestion, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like you're like primed to be in a cult.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Prime to be like, there's a 16 foot, very thin man always behind the slide on the playground. Like, no, there isn't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And you just figured out Santa doesn't exist. Of course you're gonna believe it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm dealing with that psychological fucking shit. Yeah. No, I never watched it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You watched it though. Yeah. Well, I can give you an update on that case. It took place in 2014, and Anissa Weiher was released from a state psychiatric facility in 2021 at age 19. She's the one who committed the crime. She's living under strict supervision with GPS monitoring and no Internet access, and she's required to continue psychiatric treatment. And then Morgan Geyser, who actually carried out the stabbing, is still in a State Hospital. In January 2025, a Wisconsin judge granted her conditional release from the Winnebago Mental Health Institute, saying she no longer posed a danger. But her actual move has been delayed several times. In 2025. In April, her planned group home placement was halted after it was revealed to be just eight miles from her victim's home.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Horrible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And the judge instructed the Department of Health Services to create a new placement plan. And Geyser was returned to the mental hospital while they complete that plan. So that's the update as of now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And also that is just kind of like this sad true underbelly of this case, which is it's a mental illness gone unchecked.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Issue in children.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Together.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, just horrible. Folie a deux.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Speaking of, let's get into Karen's story about Christine and Leah Pepin. If your idea of spring cleaning means getting rid of every single piece of furniture that you swore was temporary four years ago, article is here to help. Article makes it easy to create a stylish, long lasting home at an unbeatable price and thanks to their online only model, they have some unbeatable prices too. Article offers a curated range of mid century, modern, coastal and Scandi inspired pieces that not only shine on their own, but also pair seamlessly with other Article products. This thoughtful approach to design makes it incredibly easy to mix and match, helping you create a space that feels cohesive and stylish. Article takes great care in curating its collection, focusing solely on high quality, meaningful pieces that will stand the test of time. There's no filler, every item is chosen for its craftsmanship, design and lasting value and Article provides fast and affordable shipping across the US and Canada. You get a choose your delivery time and they'll keep you in the loop with updates along the way. Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. To claim, visit article.commur and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout. That's A R T I c l e.com murder to get $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. Goodbye. A sleek professional website makes you look very put together even when you're wearing sweatpants and eating cereal out of a mug.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

Get discovered faster with Squarespace's built in SEO tools with meta descriptions and auto generated sitemaps, you'll rank higher in search results globally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Go to squarespace.com murder for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use Offer Code murder to save 10% off your first purchase and of a website or domain.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's squarespace.com murder code murder goodbye Goodbye. Your cat's too mysterious to tell you what's going on, so let their litter do the talking. Pretty Litter is the high performance cat litter that controls odors, absorbs moisture and changes color to help detect potential health issues in your cat. And Pretty Litter is ultra absorbent, lightweight, low dust and one six pound bag lasts up to a month. It's the cat litter that gives you peace of mind Their crystals will change color to indicate early signs of illness in your cat, such as urinary tract infections and kidney issues. And the best part, Pretty Litter ships free right to your door so you'll never run out. I recently had to move my cat box upstairs near my bedroom because we were doing some work downstairs in the house, and I was so nervous about all the dust and the smells. And then I remember we used Pretty Litter, and none of those things are problems anymore, so it was totally fine having the cat box up there. Thank you. Pretty Litter right now, save 20 on your first order and get a free cat toy at prettylitter.com that's prettylitter.com MFM to save 20 on your first order and get a free cat toy. Pretty Litter.com MFM Pretty Litter cannot detect every feline health issue or prevent or diagnose diseases. A diagnosis can only come from a licensed veterinarian. Terms and conditions apply. C site for details. Goodbye. Who's first this week?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Karen K. Stephen. Thank God. Okay, this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Now that I don't have a job, it was super fun to sit down in front of my computer and have nothing else fucking standing over me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Isn't that fun?

[Karen Kilgariff]

And get into something.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And here's how I found this murder. Specifically. I had one packet left of the murder cards. Those serial killer or murderer card.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like true crime playing cards or not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The cold case playing cards. But they were just the baseball cards, remember that we got Steven. Did you get us those for Christmas?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. He's like, yeah, you motherfuckers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Yes, I did. So I had one pack left. I looked over. I was sitting in. I was like, crick, Cri. Crick. Ready to find some story. And then I looked over.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She just cracked her fingers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah, that's me cracking my knuckles. And I looked over and I had one packet unopened of those cards.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's a sign.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I opened it up. There's, of course, three mafia guys where it's like, enough already with you people. Aileen Wuornos is in there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hi.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How are you? Exciting, but, you know, well, trod territory, sure. Then I come upon this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God, oh, my God, oh, my God, oh, my God. And this is the best idea to get murderous. Cause I'm like, what am I gonna fucking do? I should just shuffle a deck and pick one that's not mobbed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cause there's tons of good ones. And they start you off like, you know every detail. And then you can be like, oh, yeah, There is enough there. This is the kind I want to talk about.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm sorry. Do that again with your pa. And so.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also I just really enjoyed, like I was typing. It was all for myself. I didn't have to turn it in. Nobody was waiting for me to turn it in.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, girl.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Honey, I like it. Okay. Come with me. Back to France. February 2, 1933. That's right. So a man named Monsieur Lancelin is supposed to have dinner with his wife and daughter at their friend's house. He gets there first. They're supposed to meet him there at 6:30. They don't show up. So he goes home to see what's taking them so long. He arrives to find the front door is bolted from the inside. And the only light on in the entire house is the glow of a single candle. So he knows that something is terribly wrong. So he goes to the police station. Cause he thinks a prowler has broken in. He brings the police back to the house and two officers climb the back wall and break in the back door. Inside, all the lights in the house are out and it's totally silent. They look around the ground floor with their flashlights. They're quietly looking around. Cause they're all thinking there's a prowler inside the house. And they start to climb the back stairs and quietly. And when they're almost to the first floor landing. So basically the ground floor, they're calling the first floor the ground floor and the second floor. The first floor in this story. I don't know if it's a French thing, I found it very confusing, but it's basically ground floor, first floor, second floor.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I did that with my hands visually only for Georgia. Sorry, everybody at home. Okay, so as they're almost to the first floor, it's really the second floor landing. The first officer on the stairs sees a white marble on the stair in front of him. So he leans down to pick it up. It's an eyeball. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yes. We're off to the races.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. Ew.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's a human eyeball.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, no, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And looking up at him. So they climb the last few steps to the first floor, which is actually the second floor. And they find the bodies of Mrs. Lancelin and her daughter. Her adult daughter brutally murdered.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Their faces, quote, reduced to a pulp. Oh my.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That. Oh, I've read a couple of those and that blows my mind over time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I was super bummed because after I read this card, read the Wikipedia page, then I found on YouTube, which I highly recommend a British crime series. And now there's all these ones I wanna watch. I of course forgot to write down what the name of it is, but this one was about them. And they had all these French like experts and all these people. Whatever. And the British narrator also spoke French, so he pronounced all these names really well. But there is a.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Good for him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Good for him. You know what? That's how it is over there in Europe. Great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're happy for him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There is a picture of this crime scene that I accidentally saw. I don't. I'm 33 from 1933 and it is so fucking awful.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I want to see it. Is that gross?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I mean, that's what some people are all about. I'm not normally about it because it sticks. My brain takes a picture of it and I can look back at it anytime I want to, which then I'll do that all the time. So I normally don't. But there was a part where they talk about how the adult daughter, Genevieve, that her calves and butt were stabbed and slashed. And as they're explaining that part, the picture just pans across.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, they don't even tell you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, they didn't prep you in any way. And it was really horrifying. Like it was really, really gruesome. And not just like thin knife marks, like these big gashes, open gashes. And like as many as you could fit on the back of both legs.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck. Are you serious?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, it was horrible. Then it pans out and shows both. And these women, you can't see their faces. They're so. It's such a gruesome attack.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Bashing the head to pulp. I saw a crime scene photo once on Cold Case Files where you couldn't see the guy's head because there was like he had a hoodie on and there was just nothing there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I did not want to see that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's how this is. It's really upsetting because it's like the front of them looks. They look like old fashioned 30s women.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then. Yeah, horrifying, dude. So it really is that. Okay, so the officers there. So they come upon the scene. They said there's teeth and bone on the floor. Jesus. It's like. It's just. It's brutal carnage. So they're thinking, okay, this, this murderer is still in the house because the front door is bolted from the inside. So they go up to the second story, third story. Third. Third for us, second for France. And they're checking everything. They check every single room. And they check the laundry room, and they see that there is an iron sitting there with a wrinkled shirt on the ironing board. And they realize that the maids in the house were surprised while they were working and. And interrupted during their work. And so they're like, okay, so there's two maids that are probably also the victims of this guy in this house. So they're like, holy shit, where are they? So room by room, they're looking for this guy, you know, the intruder. And these bodies.

[Georgia Hardstark]

How scary. Like, with a fucking flashlight doing that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Horrifying, right? Once they see that, once they see the actual first murder scene, and then they find in the laundry room that the maids were there and that their work was interrupted. They go back downstairs, they let the sergeant into the house, and then the other policemen send for the superintendent, the examining magistrate, and the coroner. And then the police go back up and continue to search the rest of the house. And it finally ends at the maid's chambers. They find that that room is bolted from the inside. So they're like, okay, this guy's in this room. They worry that the dead bodies of the maids are in there with him. So they call a locksmith. And so then they wait around for the locksmith to come. And they're listening at the door while they wait for the locksmith, and it's dead silent.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Locksmiths take time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know, right? In like, a little French village. So I said, this is back when doors were actually made of something. You couldn't just break it down by, like, throwing your shoulder into it twice like every cop show. Which then made me think of the time that my sister. I really wanted to borrow this pink and black pinstripe jumpsuit of my sister's in high school.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Horrible.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so 80s. It looked like it was like black.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And pink pinstripe, black and pink jumpsuit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So it was like black lapel, black buttons.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A black patent leather belt.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. It sounds. You know what? It sounds snazzy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's snazzy. Jazz hands. Jumpsuit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What's your name? Snazzy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Jazzy. Snazzy Jazz hands. My sister, who was a lot thinner than me in high school, was like, no, you can't borrow. It'll look bad on you. Which it did. But she was like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Had no problem being you wanted to show her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Don't do it. So then I made my mom make her lend it to me, and she's like, fine, and gave it to me, but she didn't give me the belt. So the middle Part was just elastic without the belt with two loops that the belt was supposed to go through. And it made me so angry that I kicked a hole in the bottom of my sister's bedroom door.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Holy shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because we were home alone, so my sister's like, fine, you can borrow it. And threw it at me. But then there's no belt, so it was like the whole thing fell apart. So I got. It was just, like, the culmination of everything. Kicked a hole in the bottom of her door. She opened the door, like, holy shit. And then we were both like, oh, no. Like, now we're dead.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because it was both. It doesn't matter that you did it. No, you did it because she was pissing you off. We're both in trouble, so you're both in fucking trouble.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And big trouble. Because my dad did not play with stuff like that. Like, yeah, he would get really mad. So we took one of those. Remember Those really big Mrs. Grossman stickers? There was, like, really big hearts, really kind of basic teddy bears.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was, like, the first sticker wave of the early 80s. So I had a really huge Mrs. Grossmith sticker, and we just stuck it at the bottom of my sister's door.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think it's sweet that she, like, helped you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, well, she had to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know, but it's also, like, sweet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. She knew she was being an asshole. Then my mom came home from work and was like, you think I'm stupid? I know you didn't put a sticker at the bottom of Laura's door for no reason.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it's, like, concave, too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly. And we were super scared. And then my mom goes, no, you do realize that your dad. Cause my dad had eight brothers and sisters. When they would fight, they fought one time so bad that they were chasing one brother, that one brother locked himself in the room, and the other brothers took the. The door off the hinges to get to it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Holy shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And she's like, no, he has. He'll have nothing to say about this. Don't worry about it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's not annoying about parents. It's like, you never know. It's gonna fucking piss them off.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's exactly right. Like, if you act scared, then they'll be on your side.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And if you're like, yeah, fuck it, I kicked a thing. And then you're like, you're grounded for eight days. Anyhow, listen. The locksmith shows up because they had to literally break in that way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. I forgot where we were.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know. Now we're back in France.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And a horrible, horrible murder has cut from Sacramento to France.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Petaluma.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Petaluma.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They push. He pushes a thing. He makes the key fall out of the other side. They open the door and the two maids are in bed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sleeping.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, with puppies. Just with each other. Sisters just in their robes. And one of the maids says, we were expecting you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wait, they're not dead? No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Next to the bed, there's a candle on a stool. And next to the candle there's a hammer covered in blood. That's right, girl.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. I was not. I thought it was the dad. Oh, my God. I was not expecting that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I really made it. So I twisted and turned you on this one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're a good storyteller.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you. It's because I hated my sister so much.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thanks, Laura. Thanks a lot.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's all to her doing. So the police ask them, what did you do to your masters? And the older maid replies, they wanted to hit me. I would rather do my masters in than let them do us in.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But, like, with a thousand blows.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Holy shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The police ask their names, and the maid tells them that she is Christine Papin. And the other maid is her younger sister, Leah. Or Leah, I'm sure. When the police sergeant accuses them of murdering the mother and the daughter, Leah cries out, they shouldn't have threatened us. And the police start to focus their questioning on Leah because she seems to be the more fragile of the two. But then with just one look from her sister, she falls silent. And Christine tells the police that Leah is deaf and dumb. And then Leah doesn't say another word. And the police take them away. Okay, so the mother and daughter have mortal stab wounds to the head and face. As I already said, the daughter has stab wounds to the butt and calves. The maid slashed the women's faces open and then smashed their heads with a heavy pewter pot. There was blood going up all the walls. And both women had their eyes pulled out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What have we said? Leave the eyes alone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Leave them alone. But not these two. They're dressed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Were they alive when their eyes got.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ah, yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you think they were alive when their eyes got.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They were plucked. Yeah, we'll hear about that later.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, no, I don't want details.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're gonna get em.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The dresses were. Both of their dresses were pulled up and their underwear were pulled down.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's weird.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So that they were. But the experts in this documentary talk about how this was like one of those crime scenes that was, from the beginning, was compromised because the Cops were walking through it. They didn't even know they were walking through it. The locksmith walked through it, the crime scene photographer walked through it. And because of the time they pulled up the dresses, they pulled up the underwear and pulled down the dresses so that they could take the crime scene photo, they didn't leave it as it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Was to be decent.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, exactly. So Christine, the older sister, the older maid, was questioned, and she said that the iron had broken the day before. They had to have it fixed. So the iron broke again that day, and they knew their mistress would be angry.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm sorry. Irons fucking break, dude.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, what's interesting, and I wish there was more to be found out about what this family was actually like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, because.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because it's one of those things where now they're dead and you can't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was this really intense, like, hideous job anyway.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, if you get mad at someone for something that they have absolutely no control over, like, what else do you get pissed about?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. Are you some kind of crazed monster, like, mommy dearest type boss?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Christine says that when Mrs. Launcelot. When she told Mrs. Launcelot the iron was broken again, that her mistress set upon her. So as she saw her coming at her, Christine decided to leap at her face and tear her eyes out with her fingers. Yeah. And then the daughter came in because she heard that going on. And as she heard that, Christine yelled to Leah, tear her eyes out. Holy fuck. And then. So Leah does it to the daughter.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Then both women are on their knees, like, holding their eyes, holding their faces.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And that. Like. Dude.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that's when they started. That's when they pick up the. They started hitting in the head with this pewter pot that was nearby. And then one of them went downstairs and got the other instrument. So they went to the kitchen and got a knife and a hammer and brought it back upstairs.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, the moment your eyes have been plucked out, you know, you have no hope. Like, there's no. No, it's getting at it. There's no. Like, they're not gonna. Like, it's not gonna be a fight. And then they're gonna walk away.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. No, no. I mean, then they're helpless also. It's just so goddamn horrifying.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're starting. You're starting with the fucking. The death blow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, also. Who can do that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Who can do that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I can't imagine. It's easy. Like, it's an easy thing to do. Like, not even just. Not even just The. I don't even mean, like, either. I don't even like, pulling someone's. I think the actual strength and, like, exactly. What's it called? Agility. No, fortitude. Fortitude. And with your hands.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, agility. I think you're actually able to know how to do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, no, it's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it's just the grossest. Like, you know, like a haunted house where, like, it's like, ooh, cow eyeballs in a bowl or whatever. And, like, you don't even want to put your hand in what are basically grapes covered in, you know, whatever. Like, they do stuff like that where it's just, like, blew even. Just the feeling of it, much less yanking them out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And the fact that they could both do it. Like, the sister was like, you do that, too? And she wasn't like, no, yeah. She was gonna hit her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm on this. Okay. At the end of her testimony, Christine said, I have no regrets.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You don't have one or two.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, it's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, you can think about it for a little while. Go over what you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, no, no. Nothing comes to mind.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I feel good about all of it. And the thing that freaked the cops out were Leah's answers were exactly the same as Christine's. So they knew they weren't getting the full story because it was so. Such a rehearsed story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So, however.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, go ahead.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nothing. I mean, the fact that they're admitting to such horrifying things is like, well, what else is there that they're keeping from them? Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This isn't, like, the worst thing they could ever say.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. And it wasn't like they're trying to blame them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. They're like. They're blaming them for being a bitch about the iron. That's as bad as I got. Yeah. They weren't saying, will they beat us every single day? Or anything.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We just snapped because they were so awful to it. You know, it's like, oh, we fucking went after the balls of their eyes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We went for it. Okay. So they find out that the upbringing is basically. They had an unhappy parents who were unhappily married. The mother was thought to be very disturbed. They had an older sister who was sent to live at a Catholic orphanage, who eventually became a nun and, like, moved. Christine was sent to live with her aunt for the first seven years of her life and was supposed to be happy. Then Leah was born, and both girls were sent to a Catholic orphanage by this mother. So the mother was just, like, not handling anything when she's 15, though, the mother takes Christine out of the orphanage and places her to work as a maid. So that's when she started working as a maid when she was 15 years old. And in 1926, in April of 1926, Christine starts working at the Lancelins house. And then when Leah's old enough, she comes and joins her sister, you know. So basically Mrs. Lancelin is said to be a demanding mistress. She liked her house very clean. The girls were up at 7 o' clock every morning, cooking, cleaning, going to the market. They worked 14 hour days.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Jesus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They had like an hour off here and there. They were free to leave the house or just go up to their room. But a lot of. There's a lot of theories that this was basically that at this period of time, these were like, it was the bourgeoisie who were exploiting the working class.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, for sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So it was like, I'll pay you a pittance. You're gonna come and you're just basically gonna work for as long as I want you to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, you're available 24 hours a day. There's no. I mean, yeah, it wasn't like there were workers rights back then.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly. It's kind of like how we are with Steven, do our bidding, maybe I'll buy you Del Taco.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah, Steven. You owe her two bucks for that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

For the number four combo. Okay. So both of those, both of the past sisters are found to be sane. And they say their relationship was not found to be suspect, but they were found in bed together, kind of nude in a way. And they said eventually it comes out that they were very close, quote, unquote.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Huh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

One of the theories of why they pulled the women's eyes out was because Mrs. Lancelot caught the sisters having sex.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And speculation, Officer. Speculation, Officer, for sure. But they were saying, because of how homosexuality was viewed at the time, that it would be such incredibly, in and of itself would be taboo. And then it's incestual.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Maybe it wasn't her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Incestuous.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Maybe it wasn't her sister.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You have to see these pictures. They're sisters. They look almost exactly alike. They have the same awesome French eyebrows. But they look, they're so frightening. They look like a picture out of. They look like the thing of, like, you know, no one's lived in this house for 50 years. What do you mean?

[Georgia Hardstark]

You met the mistresses of the house?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And then it's like she used to live here. And then you're like, oh, that's the woman that shows up at Night in the hallway.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, so. So. So. Christine finally admits. After being held in prison for five months, Christine finally admits it was her idea to murder the women. Leah was just doing her bidding. So the trial was held in September of 1933.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Huge.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This was like the trial of the century. This is in Le Mans, which is a small village. I don't know how big it is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's pronounced Wooster.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's pronounced Woosta.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But like, all the biggest newspapers in France go to it. It's packed. It's crazy. The sisters come in. They both look very sheepish, and they whisper. You can barely hear them talking the whole time. And Christine admits to everything. There's no. They don't put up any kind of argument. The prosecution psychologist attests there's nothing wrong with the sisters. There's nothing in their background to suggest there's anything abnormal about them psychologically. And they say Christine is of average intelligence and Leah is of low intelligence. But the defense psychologist has a different opinion. He brings up that there is almost no motive, yet the brutality is beyond extreme. And he suggests there's a third person present at the murders. The combination of the personalities between Christine and Leah that they had because they were so close and they were the only person the other person had. They had this kind of weird connection. They call it a folly. Adieu. Which is when you hear about, you know that story of those other two weird twins that ran into the freeway. Yeah, yeah. And then there's those ones. And then there's another set of twins. They're black sisters.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Who also had a similar.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Who went to a mental institution and was like, whoever dies first has to live a normal. The other has to live a normal life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly. So they call that a folly, a doom. Which means that you're both. You're having a shared hallucination. And they also associate that with. With couple killers that basically you're living in this weird fantasy together outside of the realm of normal thinking.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow. Ooh, that's interesting.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So they believe they also. One of the. That defense psychologist suggests that they were going through something called hystero epilepsy, which I didn't look up, and it could directly impact my life. But it's basically like they were in it a state that Christine was in a state and that Leah was just so under her sway that she had no choice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

How do you have, like. Is sustained epilepsy a thing?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no. Hystero epilepsy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So that's Just like they went hysterical, that their, their brain like went crazy. I'm not sure I should have looked it up to find out exactly what he meant.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I want to guess. It's fun.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's all we do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But it's basically like they're in. They're in some kind of a hysterical state.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, I dig it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, but the weird thing is, it's like clearly something special is happening in this situation because it's not like they didn't jump at the women. Beat him up, beat him up. Hit him in the head once. Yeah, it wasn't like that. This is sustained, extreme, insane violence.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, this is like. Yeah, dude, crazy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So basically the jury, the judge and jury find them both guilty. Christine is sentenced to death because she basically comes forward and says, it was my idea. She's ordered to be beheaded in the town square. Lee in the city of Lal, Leah is sentenced to 20 years hard labor and 10 years exile, which is kind of old fashioned fun.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's like, I don't want to be around you fuckers anyway.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, fine, then go live on an island. Which sounds great. Christine's sentence has changed to a life sentence of hard labor. At some point someone comes in and says there was something else going on here and that these psychologists didn't. They basically oversimplified the situation. Obviously something else was happening. And can we at least get her sentence commuted to a life of hard labor or whatever? 20 years of hard labor. So they do, they go find Christine. At this point, Christine has been brought to a mental institution. She's not talking, she's not eating, and she says that she deserves to die the way the jury found her to be guilty of that. She deserves the charge. So she just stopped eating. And she's basically wasting away. When they give her the paperwork to sign to say that instead of being sentenced to death that she, she gets 20 years hard labor or whatever, she won't sign it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And she just basically sits in silence, staring into space. They bring her sister to her. She doesn't acknowledge her, even act like she knows who she is, and she eventually dies. Sorry I said that. Like Lizzie Cooperman dies, but her sister Leah adapts well to prison life and is released when she's 31.

[Georgia Hardstark]

31.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So she was, she's an old maid at that point, basically. And she died July 24, 2001.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, she just lived. She went back to wherever the mother lived and like started her life over and then just kind of like lived. There is a documentary. I don't have the name of it, but if you look up, all this stuff obviously is just a click away. If I can find it, you can find it. But there was a documentary. Someone went and was like, there is a pom pom sister left. And they're like, we're going to go find her. And they find her in like an old folks home right before she died in her 90s.

[Georgia Hardstark]

How was your life? Yeah, in her undies.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In her 90s.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So it's kind of. And also there's a movie called Sister. My Sister is one movie. And there's also a bunch of plays. Jean Paul Sartre and Jean Genet and all these writers of the time wrote a ton about it because it became this thing about like the working class and the exploitation of the workers and how unfair, you know, people with money were to the working class and that it was kind of a natural reaction.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. They said like, oh, dude, like, this is what's gonna happen if we keep fucking treating him like this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That is crazy. And so violent and gruesome.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so violent. And also so like they wanted to. They smashed their faces and they left their bodies like exposed. Like it was so beyond.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And they didn't try to hide it. Right. That to me is like, you know when like someone tries to argue that they were mentally ill, but they like tried to hide the murder, it's like, no, you weren't, because you knew it was wrong and so you hid it. And like, they didn't do that. Which says to me something about them not being mentally competent.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They hid like children.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Like they waited though.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. They didn't run out of the house, which is just. They were on the stairs. Like, they were right there. They should have and could have run out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Instead they went to their room and locked the door and got in bed and just like hung out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, man. What happened to them in the orphanage?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Something fucked. Well, fuck, dude. What are their names again?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Christine and Leah. Pan. Pan.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck, dude. Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank us all. Okay, we're back. Karen, any updates?

[Karen Kilgariff]

There are no updates on this case. I was actually just looking it up because we were talking about how disturbing, how bizarre and the little details in it. And Alison was like, this actually would make an amazing horror movie. Like a. A 24 horror movie for today where it's like. It absolutely would. I know they've done the. More like a sociological kind of study, you know, filmic version, but it's like, this should be a straight up horror movie.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You want, like, supernatural?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, because they say that when it is a folie a deux, there's like a third personality that is between the two. That's there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Got it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Which. Which just. I think you could take that theme and really run with it with those two sisters. You know what I mean? Getting abused by these. You know, you could make it seem, like, insanely monstrous. Much worse than average. You know what I mean? Like, really set it up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And then there's a question to ask of, like, is mental illness, like, almost a different person inside of you or a different part of you? You know, if you're into parts. Therapy, I mean.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, if you are, your brain and your brain is doing something different in one area.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. I mean, something I know the logical part of you wouldn't want to do then.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But also, it's a thing of, like, so many parts of this story because it's like, it isn't just revenge. They mutilated those people. So there's more. And we just. Will we ever know? I wish there was an update to this case because would we ever know the real reason or the. I would just love to be able to, like, track it in a real way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally. Well, you should write it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I will. I will make up the truth if I can't have it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I wish you would. A comedy horror movie. Is that a thing that shouldn't be?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't think this one. I think this one has to be real serious. So that moment where they're like, we were expecting you, and the cop opens the door.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, well, that's your new genre.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So scary. Poor man's copyright. You cannot make this movie. People are like, 18 people have made it already.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, now we're gonna get into Georgia's story. This one, she covers the case of Sam Shepard.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Have you heard the story of the 17 kids that unexpectedly disappeared at exactly 2:17am they all got out of bed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

At the exact same time, walked outside, and were never seen again.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What happened that night?

[Karen Kilgariff]

This August 8th, uncover the truth From.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Zack Kraeger, the director of Barbarian and the studio that brought you it. And the conjuring comes. A new horror thriller so twisted you'll have to see it to believe it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Starring Josh Brolin, Julia Garner, Austin Abrams and Benedict Wong.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Step into the darkness and experience weapons.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Weapons Only in theaters and in IMAX Aug 8.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Rated R. Under 17 not admitted without parent. Goodbye. Do you love a good sale?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you also hate walking?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Then head over to the Hyundai getaway sales event going on now, because now's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The perfect time to finally get that car or SUV you've been thinking about.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So head down to your local Hyundai dealer and get away with some some seriously huge savings.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You can score a great deal on Hyundai's award winning lineup of SUVs including the Kona, Tucson, Santa Fe and Palisade.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or check out their sedans, the technology packed Elantra and their most advanced Sonata yet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And if you've been thinking about moving into a post gasoline lifestyle, the all electric Ioniq 5 and Ioniq 6 are part of the event too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But those savings are just the beginning because Hyundai also takes care of you after you drive off the lot.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Every new Hyundai comes with America's best warranty. That's a 10 year 100,000 mile Powertrain Limited Limited Warranty.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You also get 3 years or 36, 000 miles of complimentary maintenance on all 2025 models.

[Karen Kilgariff]

These are just a few of the many ways Hyundai has your back, so.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Peace of mind comes standard along with your new car.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Visit hyundaiusa.com or call 562-314-4603 for more details.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's hyundaiusa.com or Call 562-314-4603.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Offers end September 2, 2025 Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The weather is nice and you've got plans. Road trips, cookouts, and somehow you still have 47 other things on your calendar.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Talkspace makes it easy to fit therapy into your life so you can get back to pretending you love outdoor activities.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Therapy is a great way to process your feelings and Talkspace is the leading virtual therapy provider.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Talkspace brings therapy to you so you can get support from the comfort and privacy of your own home.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They bring personalized treatments for individuals, couples and the LGBTQIA community, veterans and teens.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, we talk about the importance of keeping your mental health in a great place, not just making it through day to day. The white knuckling that I have definitely done in the past when I thought I don't need anyone's help. I'm just gonna figure this out by myself. I wasted decades of my life when I could have just been talking to somebody and being vulnerable and working on it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't be a mental health hero.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so true.

[Georgia Hardstark]

As a listener of this podcast, you'll get $80 off your first month with Talkspace when you go to talkspace.com and enter promo code SPACE80.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's S P A C E 80.

[Georgia Hardstark]

To match with a licensed therapist today, go to talkspace.com mfm and enter promo code SPACE80 to get 80 off your first month and show your support for the show. Goodbye. All right, mine's up. But you probably have heard of it. But I. But it's a good one and I really wanted to do it, so. Karen?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

On the night of July 3, 1954, Dr. Sam Shepard.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, girl.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hey. Hey.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A neurosurgeon and his wife Marilyn, who was four months pregnant with their second kid. They lived on a lakefront home in Bay Village, Ohio, which is a suburb of Cleveland. Have you been to Cleveland? I've never been to Cleveland.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't think I have. We should do a show.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So they're watching a movie together. Sam Shepard falls asleep on the daybed in the living room. And Marilyn tucks their seven year old son into bed. And then she goes to sleep in their bedroom. And purportedly in the early morning hours, Sam says he woke up on the daybed to the cries of his wife screaming. He runs upstairs and he sees an intruder in the bedroom and he gets knocked unconscious. Then he wakes up, he takes his wife's pulse and then he sees the intruder downstairs and chases him out. And they head down to the beach and there's a tussle and Sam Shepard's knocked unconscious again. Jesus. And he wakes up, he's like half in the lake. His shirt's gone, his watch is gone. He freaks out. He runs home, finds his wife in their bedroom bludgeoned to death. And she's on the bed. She'd been hit 35 times, 27 in her head. She had a broken nose, a shattered skull. There's gashes on her forehead and scalp. A fingernail gets torn off, which always creeps me out. And two incisors are broken or ripped out where she either bit her attacker or was hit so hard that her tooth came out. There was evidence of a sexual assault, only in that her pajama top had been pushed up around her neck and one of her pajama legs had been taken off. And she was posed with her legs spread open. But there was no sign of sex or rape. And her body was angled in this crazy way at the end of the bed where there was basically like a banister, where it was like impossible to have raped her. So she was pulled down there to make it look like sexual assault, but it wasn't. And the bedroom's covered in blood and there's blood throughout the house. So Sam Shepard, when he gets back from being unconscious on the beach, he doesn't call the cops. He tested Marilyn's pulse. And then at 5:40am he calls his neighbors, basically saying, I think they've killed Marilyn. So he calls his neighbors, the neighbors come over. I think one of them was the mayor of the town. And they were over earlier that night for dinner. They find Sam shirtless and his pants were wet with a blood stain on the knee. And he leaves them to go find Marilyn's body. And then they call the cops.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know what that makes me think of? JonBenet.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Exactly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So he's taken to the hospital, he's examined by his brother, who's also a doctor.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That shouldn't be allowed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nope. And then a green duffel bag with some of the trinkets that are stolen from their house is found close by the house. House outside in the woods. And like, weird stuff, you know, it looks like everyone knows what a staged robbery looks like. It's, you know, drawers are pulled out, but neatly. Nothing of value is taken, even though things of value are spread out, that sort of thing. And so the police find inconsistencies with his story and they also think it's outlandish. So he's taken a trial on October 18th. It's my sister's birthday, 1954. And prosecutors find out that Shepard had a three year long extramarital affair with a nurse at the hospital where he worked at. It was ongoing and they argued that the affair was his motive for killing his wife. So if she's pregnant like he want, he doesn't want this life anymore. That's their argument. And there were a lot of inconsistencies, one of which was that the family dog, and I think this is such a normal thing, was never heard barking and it always barked at intruders. I feel like neighbors say that all the time. Also their 7 year old son Sam was asleep in the other room during the whole thing and never woke up. And I was like, well, if she's screaming and he can hear her in the living room, then the kid woke up. Unless he doesn't remember it or unless they were fighting all the time. And so he never got out of.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Bed for it or unless he was a heavy sleeper. I am a heavy sleeper and you can scream and I won't hear it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Unless my dog starts barking.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's so sharp.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And like jolting or whatever. But I think like as children, I don't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Anyway. Yeah, they're hard sleepers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Other issues brought up at the trial was the fact that there was no sand in Sam Shepard's hair, even though he Claimed to be sprawled out on the beach. There was no sign on the beach of a life or death struggle where he claimed to tackle Marilyn's killer. He's missing his T shirts, which the prosecutors speculated would have had some of his. Sam Sheppard's should contain some blood from the alleged attack or struggle with the perpetrator. Also, the blood evidence was fucked up. So Sam Sheppard had a watch on, and when the intruder first hit him, he still had the watch on. And he said that he went and took his wife's pulse, but the watch was found in the green duffel bag. So after the scuffle at the beach, the intruder supposedly took the watch. Why did he take it? After the second struggle, he had gone through Sam Shepard's wallet, supposedly. So why didn't he take it after the first knockout if he's there for, you know, valuables also. So he took his wife's pulse and touched her face, what he said had happened. And he had no blood on his body at all. And he said he didn't clean himself, so he should have had a transfer of blood to his fingers. He picked up the phone after, and there's no blood on the phone, which is weird. So, like, why is it so cleaned up? Let's see. Someone said that they got sick of me saying, da, da, da, da, da the other day.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Was it me?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are you?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No. So it doesn't matter.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, good call. Okay. He says he didn't wash or clean up, but there was no, like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, you know what? Let's listen to your podcast and see what you say all the time. And don't say. You'd be amazed at the things that you say and don't say when you talk for an extended period of time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fair enough. Then all I did is lose my place.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Listen, so now I'm yelling at you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You. You're yelling at them, but you're making eye contact with me, so I'm really mad at you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Why don't I turn it towards Steven?

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're really triggered. First, I'm really mad at. I'm triggered. Okay, so da, da, da, da. Okay, so there also should have been sand from the beach in his wristwatch if they had actually fought at the beach where he took his fucking watch. And their fucking what?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sand in the wristwatch?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, like if they were fighting on the beach, he knocks him unconscious and then steals his watch. There should be traces of sand in the watch. Yes or no?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, here's the thing, though. Every time I think of this, it's like, yes, except Is this a proven thing where it happens every time?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, you're right. Except when you add all the other evidence in. It just kind of, you know, is like a. In there. That was.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It looked filthy. What year?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I did poke, I poked.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, I thought it was two fingers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, it's just one. That's not creepy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But also, and this is just from. I think I saw, like, two minutes of this story. Because I keep avoiding watching a thing on this story. Cause I wanna watch the whole thing. And I wanna read the Errol Morris book. Errol Morris is totally on Sam Shepard's side.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is such a crazy. And I'm leaving out a lot of the evidence that people use to say he didn't do it. Because I don't believe that this is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Such a Jack the Ripper scenario where there's so much evidence. But isn't there a thing where. This was not a sandy beach. This isn't the beach. This is a small, pebble, rocky beach. Because this is Ohio. So it's like a lakefront beach. It's not tiny sand.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, what I love about this case and what I love about unsolved crimes is that that's a great argument. And let's talk about that. And then I want to be like, okay, but what about this?

[Karen Kilgariff]

This.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And, like, yeah, there's so many. And it's because it's so old, too. There's no way for us to definitely, like, we can't definitively say, like, this is wrong and this is wrong and this is wrong, so he must not have done it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or if they saw it. Once they smelled a rat, they didn't care what size the sand was, because they were like, here's what adds up, and here's what we need to add up so we can get this guy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, that's a lot of people say, is that they come to the conclusion, and then they find evidence to support their conclusion. And that's totally there. And there was also a guy working as, like, a carpenter at their house. I didn't write about him. He was obsessed with Marilyn. Supposedly he ended up being a murderer and, like, was taking advantage of women and was a rapist. And, like, there's all this shit that people are like, well, it was him, clearly. But I feel like there's so much evidence that does. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, seriously, it's like 1000 paths. Also, I never knew he was having an affair with a nurse.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I didn't remember that she was pregnant.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So the person he was having the affair with was pregnant.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, his wife was pregnant. Oh, yeah, the wife was pregnant. I mean, who knows? But it's just such a. Like, that is such an obvious motive.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. I never knew there was another woman. That's insane.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's more of a. That makes more sense to me than a guy who. They are familiar with breaking in when he knows that Sam is home. That doesn't mean. Make any fucking sense. If the person's. Well, I'm going to get to that. But if the person's motive was robbery or rape, they wouldn't. They would know that Sam was home and they wouldn't have done it then.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, and also if his motive was rape, then wouldn't he have gotten. Wouldn't he have gotten away with a rape? Because if he's going to do all this other stuff and brutally murder her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I think the thing about that, to me, I'm not even sure what.

[Karen Kilgariff]

My point was there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I guess what was most telling to me is that around her ankles was blood, like drag marks that showed that the person dragged her to the end of the bed to spread her legs apart. And there was no way he could have raped her because what's it called, the banister, the bed frame, like headboard, foot board. Footboard bar banister was there. Like he couldn't have gotten on top of her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And there were drag marks showing that he purposely put her in that position. And like, why would he not have sexually assaulted her if that was. Why would he break in to be. To rob and then put her in that position without the intent of sexually assaulting her or why?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because he was a she. Because it was the other woman that broke in and went berserker and went crazy and was, like, filled with rage. And he had tried to break up with the other woman. He was like, covered it up. My wife is pregnant. I can't do this with you anymore. Even though I promised you the moon and the stars were not doing this. And she went home one night and was just like, guess what? It's fatal attraction time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I would agree with that. If the injuries weren't as brutal as they were. And she who seemed like a badass couldn't fight back enough to have enough. Like, I don't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The woman who was pregnant.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, she. She wasn't a. Yeah. The brutality of the murder was overkill. And I don't. It didn't seem like something that, you know, someone her equal would have been able to do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, like. Cause they would have had to really overpower her. She's overpowered now exhibit A. The picture of the family I was just talking about when the sisters who fucking decimated these two women.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, if we're gonna get sued, let's get fucking sued. Maybe it was a seven year old son. Like, let's get sued. My favorite murder. Trying to get sued since 2017.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Trying to get sued since jump.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're in a new apartment and we're trying to get sued. Jesus Christ.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's the seven year old son. He's not a heavy sleeper. He went down to the beach.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's a heavy hitter.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He took all the sand out of father's watch.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, no. Okay, this is the episode.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry.

[Georgia Hardstark]

People just hate us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right. You should be.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I am genuinely sorry.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, you shouldn't be. Ever. Not on this podcast. This podcast is not a place for sorrys. Except for sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Except for the best. I'm sorry. Which is not sorry. Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. Okay. Would have been. I'm gonna fucking do it constantly now. You. Okay. There's no cut.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cut to the tweet. And it's from George's mother.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I didn't even know you knew how to treat mom. Tweet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Mom.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You tweeted the criticism. It won't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did she See, a bunch of people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Looked at my dad's Twitter because he like tweeted something at me and I retweeted it. And it's all just the whole. Every single tweet is a tweet at me. Like being like, go Georgia. Like that sounds fun. He does not tweet anything unless it's like supportive at me. And people lost their minds, which is sweet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's cute.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, so he had no blood on him to say despite the fact that they supposedly got into altercations twice. And there should have been blood on his hands and fingers if they had actually fought. And wristwatch in the green bag, no sand. Blood stains should have. Okay, so there were blood spatters on the watch, but not stains.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. So there's this article, article on crime library by Greg O. McCrary, who was a former FBI profile who's like the dude who like, knows some shit who like didn't come to a conclusion until he read everything. He wasn't biased. So he says that also important importance in analyzing this crime and crime scene is to consider the amount of time it took for the offender to stage the scene. And I think this stuff is really interesting in a mat. In like a matter of. Of reading any crime in general. Like any kind of these crimes. He says crime scenes Are high risk environments and none more so than a homicide scene. Offenders typically spend no more time than necessary at a crime scene for fear of being interrupted or caught. Consequently, there's a high degree of correlation between the amount of time an offender spends at a crime scene and the offender's familiarity and comfortability with that scene. The more time an offender spends at a crime scene, the higher the probability that the offender is comfortable with and familiar with that scene. Offenders who spend a great deal of time at the crime scene often have a legitimate reason for being at the scene and therefore are not worried about being interrupted or found at the scene. Your face is pissed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no, no. I just. Now I'm back to that. The handyman.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But he's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He looks through a basic window and sees Sam Shepard sleeping on a couch in the house. Why risk that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, because then it's even more of a victory. It makes me think of like the east area rapist or whatever, where it's like part of his attack was knowing that the husband was gonna be humiliated and in total psychic emotional pain over what was going on. And maybe that was part of the risk and part of the high for him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Especially cause he was. Had already been a rapist, which is fucking crazy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know if he already was yet. Yet. Because I didn't look it up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because I am sold on this guy being. On Sam Shepard being the murderer. But I.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A lot of people are.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can be unsold very quickly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He says the offender will often manipulate the victim's disco. Oh, here's another. Okay. This is the JonBenet thing. The offender will often manipulate the victim's discovery by a neighbor or family member. So, yeah, JonBenet calling the Ramses, calling their friend to come over and find the body as they did with their friend. What was his name? Scout.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The next door neighbor.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Before the police.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So finding. Letting someone else find the body to like, almost be a witness as well is a fucking thing that they do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right. So after deliberating for four days, the jury finds Shepard guilty of second degree murder. He's sentenced to life in prison. Then on July 30th in 1961, good old F. Lee Bailey.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah, that guy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Who was he played by in OJ in the Simpsons?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nathan Lane.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Amazing. So he takes over, which is like, oh, everyone's fucked. He's chief counsel. So Bailey petitions for a writ of habeas corpus. And I wrote something. We should ask Guy Branham about isn't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That Produce the body?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I don't know. I was wrong recently, so I'm not gonna. It is habeas corpus. I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Stephen.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Stephen, it is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We talked about it on that episode.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Produce the body.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. By the United States district.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's see. It could be a version of that. I'm wrong.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're probably right. Who called the trial a mockery of justice and that shepherds. It shredded the 14th Amendments of right to due process, which is kind of fair. The fucking media was like all over the place. It was a carnival atmosphere. The judge refused. Fucking Steven's pointing at Karen and shaking his head. Correct.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He gave me the old winky wink.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Winky wonk and then.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know what I'm saying?

[Karen Kilgariff]

The old two fingers underneath.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The old. So Dr. Shocker said that the carnival atmosphere. No, no, don't look that up. He didn't. He refused to sequester the jury and told and did not order them to ignore and disregard media reports of the case. And this was fucking next. Like this is. This is basically the Simpsons of the 60s and 50s. Like, this was a huge trial because this like upstanding doctor in this nice fucking area whose parents were also like, well to do and well known.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And his wife gets brutally murdered.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry, did you say this was 68.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In 61 is when F. Lee Bailey took over the case.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, so this is late 50s, early 60s.

[Georgia Hardstark]

54 is when the crime happened.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Holy shit. I thought it was for some reason. I thought it was like. I thought it was Manson. Yeah, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It somehow seems that way. Yeah, it does. But I think it's when they were. It was still the like post war, like, gee golly, we're gonna fucking have a normal family and something. As you know, in the 70s you kind of. This happened a lot, but not here. Okay, so he. Okay, so Shepard served a 10 years of his sentence and he gets released because F. Lee Bailey gets him out. And when he gets released, he marries a woman named Adrienne Tebanjonas. She's a German woman. They had been corresponding during his imprisonment. You know, she was like, I saw this guy in the newspaper and he's hot. This is just like out of nowhere and doesn't matter, but I thought it was so interesting. So her half sister is the wife of Joseph. Joseph Goebbels, the Nazi propaganda. Yep.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Her half sister married like the like number four Nazi.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yep. Was married to him. What the fuck? I mean, I think he was killed in Nuremberg by then, but Fuck. Fuck. You know, like, you're not like a chill person if your sister.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nope.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Gets married to that half sister. Whatever.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's, let's just, let's just guess that you're not. Not like super open minded.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. You can't. There's no way she was like a conscientious objector during the fucking world.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There is a percentage, but it is a 7% chance.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not when their sister marries Joseph Goebbels. Goebbels.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Goebbels. Goebbels. That's heavy duty and not a good association.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, that has nothing to do with the case. I just found it very interesting. All right, so this guy who's the former FBI profile, Greg McCrary, he was involved as an expert witness for the third trial, which was a civil suit brought on by Sam Shepard Jr. In 1999.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Saying that his father had been wrongfully imprisoned. Like he was suing them to be.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like his dad was still in prison.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, he was just trying to clear his dad's name. His dad died in 1970. I was gonna.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Got it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sorry. End with. But in 99, the son who like, clearly had some fucking Stockholm syndrome. Am I wrong? Well, I mean, I mean, we're getting sued by him anyways.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's fucking, let's just really go for it. Well, seriously, if that happened and your father was like, believe me, I didn't do it as the child. It's like those girls in the staircase. As the child of that person, you're like, he absolutely didn't do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I need to believe him. Yes, this is my life. Something so horrifying happened to my mom.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It can't be the worst thing, which is what everyone is saying it is. It can't be that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Especially when, you know, since the 60s, you've been insisting it wasn't. And you can't be like, I was wrong. Dad admitted it to me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And all of like, popular culture is insisting that he was.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, there's just as much evidence that he did it than as there is that he didn't do it. Like, this is a definitely one of those. This is like a JonBenet opinion case. There's no answer. So he loses that case. And so Greg McCrary says, When you look at the case closely and distill it to its essence, you can see that it's nothing more than a staged domestic homicide. And as for the murder weapon.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry, that's that expert guy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He examined all the evidence and it's a really interesting crime. Library article about it. As for the murder weapon, it's just one small sentence note at the end of a police report saying that a small lampshade was found on a bookcase in a room on the second floor. That no lamp was found in the murder room. But Sam's notebook lay on the nightstand ready for late night calls. So how would he have taken notes without any light? And also a local lamp fixer dude said that days before he had fixed and returned a lamp to their residence. And I'm guessing it wasn't found, but there's not a lot of information on that. But this dude said that. All right, so here's the other weird fucking not not have anything to do with this. But. So Shepard's third wife, Colleen Strickland shepherd, is the daughter of a professional wrestler. Bring it. Full circle in my relationship with Vince of the We Watch Wrestling podcast. So George Strickland introduced Shepherd to professional wrestling and trained him to be a wrestler. He made his debut in August 1969 at the age of 45. That quote killer Sam Shepard.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What? Yeah, I'm sorry, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What?

[Karen Kilgariff]

After he's out of jail.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Uh huh. And he drew a huge crowd. I'm looking for Vince's. I said, hey, do you know anything about this dude? And he was like, here's this. Like he just didn't care.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Was he just broke and needed money or like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's a really great episode of the Memory palace, which is one of my favorite that has like this just quick, beautiful the way he does. I think it's episode 86. About what his life might have been like at that point, which was he was broke, he was trying to have a private practice. No one wanted to go to him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He married this woman whose dad was a professional wrestler and he drew huge crowds.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know. So, and his like, I think his dad committed suicide. His mom died, like all this crazy shit. So he was a wrestler for a short time. He wrestled over 40 matches. And Vince says, I believe he came up with the Mandible claw, which was eventually made popular by Mankind. Mick Foley, my favorite wrestlers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I love Mankind.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you? He's such a sweet angel.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I saw that documentary about him knowing nothing about wrestling at all. And I was like, every time after that I would just be like, what about mankind? I love him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mick Foley. Angel baby.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Love him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's so sweet. So he has this crazy fucked up and in the Memory palace, he's like everyone who's watching him Fight. Wonders if he's thinking about the night he fought his wife. It's crazy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I didn't even think about that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's why he got a big fucking crowd. Oh, that's awful.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's so dark.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So he wrestled over 40 matches before his death in April 1970 from liver failure. And we don't fucking know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Georgia, that was so awesome. Wasn't it insane?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There were so many things.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Now we have to read that book by Errol Morris, because Errol Morris is convinced that it was. That he didn't do it, that the whole thing was like a setup, and that the guy that wrote Fatal Vision, whose name I can't remember, basically exploited every tiny thing so that he could make money because he knew. And see, I don't know the timeline, but basically that he was copying the guy that wrote Helter Skelter and he wanted that Helter Skelter money. And so he basically went in and made it seem like he was guilty.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I guess that's the fucking owl versus staircase argument. You know what I mean? It's just this thing of, like, you can be adamant about something and then there are these little pieces of evidence that you just can't explain away. So I don't. And same with JonBenet. Like, I love the. I prefer the theory that it was in the family, in the same way I prefer that Sam Shepard did it. But I would love to hear why he didn't, and I'd love to hear the evidence that they didn't. But then I will always come back with you. But with. To you. With, like, okay, but how do you explain that? You know, it's just. That's why I love cold cases. It's so much more. There's no period on it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's true. Well, also, just the idea, like, it seems like he has this perfect storm of people in his life where everybody could be guilty. Like, what I would love to now know is the nurse that he was having the affair with. I would just love. Oh, yes, she did have a short stint after coming at somebody with a knife.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She did kill her second and third husband.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, just something like that, where you're just like, now it's her. Now it's her. Now it's her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I never even thought of her. That's fun. I mean, it's not fun.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It makes me think of that Harrison Ford movie. Spoiler. Spoiler. Spoiler.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Alert.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Alert.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, the Fugitive, that was a TV show, right, that was made based on Sam Shepard.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it was a Harrison Ford movie. It's one of the best movies. Really? You've never seen the Fugitive? You better fucking see it when I leave tonight.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. They say that that clouded so many people's images because they don't remember what's from the Fugitive and what's not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's right. Cause it's so similar where that's a guy running because his wife is murdered and he looks so guilty that he knows he can only run and he's a doctor.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, yeah, it's based on him. So the other thing about it is that Evening, it was July 3rd, they had their neighbors over who ended up finding, you know, he called to come over and look at the body. They had them over for dinner that night and they said that they were loving and sweet and wonderful. And then Sam Shepard falls asleep on like they see him fall asleep on the couch and it's like, okay, is that legitimate? You can argue that they were in love still or you could argue that they were. He was trying to get evidence that they were happy and normal and he was sleeping. And what makes me think it's that is that he was also fucking another woman.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So they're not happy and loving and everything's fine and he falls asleep on the couch. He's fucking someone else at work and he needs them to see. Have his fucking alibi.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep. And maybe, maybe the wife is happy and loving because she doesn't know about the other woman. So she's having a totally different relationship and a different experience. And he's this crazy mastermind. I remember also seeing something in the, whatever that like very short amount that I saw in the. Some documentary about it and then turned off. But one of the things was when he, they brought him into the hospital like after, you know, he was brought in and his brother examined him and all that kind of stuff, that he was completely stone faced, emotionless. No matter who talked to him, he was not crying, he wasn't shaking. It was as if he was just kind of like there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, he could have been in shock. Now I'm arguing for him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He could have just been in shock.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He could have been in shock.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, the other thing is too that they named all his injuries and shit, but they were all on the left side of his body. Which could either mean that the fucking killer was left handed or he just took his right hand and beat the shit out of himself with his right hand.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What are the odds that you'd only have bruises on one side yeah, unless.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Unless his arm, fucking. He bashes in his arm and he can only hit with his. I mean, so fun. It's not fun. It's horrible. Marilyn fucking bless her soul sucks.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, I mean, the fact is horrifying, the theorizing and the possibility. Because these are people's real lives. Like, aside from the victims, there's the possibility of another victim, which is this doctor who people are. You can see it either way. Like the victim of circumstance, which is the most romantic. I mean, there was a TV show on for what, 10 years or however long that show was on. And that movie. Still can't believe you haven't seen it. It's truly one of the best movies. I'm gonna watch it as soon as it's so great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The Tommy Lee Jones I'm in. There has to be a couple of these people who are found guilty or who we all think are guilty that were fucking not. And. And there's still a hundred pieces of evidence that I could argue that makes them look guilty. And that sucks. And we just never know who those people are unless DNA comes along and exonerates them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Some kind of weird, like, we grab the heir in the room and that somehow in the future proves this or that some future heir. My air DNA theory, dude, I love it. But it's exactly like the beginning of Shawshank Redemption where it's like. Like, yes, he was drunk, yes, he was angry at his wife. Yes, she was having an affair. Da da da. He still didn't kill her, but he's gonna. He goes to jail for it. And he couldn't look guiltier, and there's nothing he can do. And it's just that kind of like, it. It does happen.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I've thought about that. Like, with Vince of, like, I almost. I don't know what happened. I almost dropped something on my head the other day, and I was like, Vince is sitting here with me. Like, I wonder who wouldn't believe him that he said that I fucking dropped something on my stupid head.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, on your own head.

[Georgia Hardstark]

On my own stupid head.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right? And like, except for he can't because you've talked so much about thinking he might kill you, you've actually made your own, like, insurance that he.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That he will be arrested and I.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Will be the first one to ring the doorbell. I'll be like, dude, I'm so sorry, but I simply must.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're under arrest.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're under citizens arrest.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Citizen's arrest.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're under potty.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Vince has. I just want to clarify. Vince has never done anything to me or at me or near me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That is one of. Vince is the guy who. This is basic. This is basic. Anytime we're anywhere. You guys came to my wrap party the other night. You were my guest at my wrap party. And Vince is like, as you and I are hot gossing. Vince is like, what can I get you? We just walked in. I mean, you guys had just walked.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You need another. Do you need another Diet Coke? Like, he's just. He.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's the greatest. So it would be such a turn if he killed you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It would be funny.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's the perfect. He's building the perfect.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, I would be surprised. I would be like, whoa.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But in that last moment, you're like, you know what? I gotta give this up to you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Go ahead. And he's like, she didn't fight.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You earned this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She laughed. Cause she's a monster. Oh, my God. This is such a horrible conversation.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is one of the greatest. Okay, we are back. Georgia, any updates on this case?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my gosh. What a famous case. No updates. Still haven't seen the Fugitive. I will remedy that this weekend, I swear. I swear.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, truly. I would put the Fugitive up there with Pride and Prejudice in terms of a watchability, repeat watchability movie. Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's just taut. It is. It snaps along.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, I'm in. I'm in love. A Harrison Ford.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I love Harrison Ford. Like, who doesn't get in there with him?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I'll watch it. Okay? I promise I'll watch it this weekend. Which doesn't for today's episode, but.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, it does. This is actually a private conversation we should be having off mic.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But at least I got my promise out of Georgia. Okay, so now we're gonna do the retitle this episode, which was a great episode, by the way. I love. We both compliment each other. We both are very impressed by the other person's storytelling ability in this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Finally, at episode 55, we're both figuring it out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It only took us about a year or so, and we start to hit our stride. So this episode originally was titled let's hear your podcast. The Argument Starter.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. So maybe let's do it a little nicer. If we were naming it today, maybe we would call it the Furniture Hour.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's nice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because of my new IKEA furniture.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. We really spent some time talking about it. We could also title it Reel up in Arms. About Woosta.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That was the beginning, I think. About. Yeah. About Corrections Corners. About Pronouncing sin cities.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like spell it like you say it. That was the beginning at the dawning of that. Where also it's like, that's one of those cities that's nothing like it. And people are real aggressive about when you get it wrong.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They're tough there. I don't want. Those are people I don't want to piss off too. So, like, can you just change the spelling or the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't want to piss you off. At the same time, I don't know you. I don't know you're safe. Sorry. I don't know you. Just like you would. You would mispronounce Sebastopol if you came around where I live.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's true.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Good luck with that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My goodness. And then we could also call it, of course da da da da da, which is. I still use that to this day.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, you're trying to read and talk and podcast all at the same time. Sometimes you need a little like, hold music.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Da da da da da da da da. Yeah. That's what I do. Well, thank you guys for listening.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, this was a great one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We hope you liked it too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And we'll let Elvis say goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Good boy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ladies and gentlemen, stay sexy and don't get murdered.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Bye, Elvis. You want a cookie? Oh, yeah, you do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He does my cookie.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Bye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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