Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 60: Jazz It

Summary

My Favorite Murder – Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 60: Jazz It

Release Date: September 3, 2025
Hosts: Karen Kilgariff & Georgia Hardstark
Network: Exactly Right / iHeartPodcasts

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Episode Overview

This "Rewind" episode revisits My Favorite Murder #60 ("Jazz It," originally aired March 2017), featuring Karen and Georgia reflecting on the original stories, sharing updates, and weaving in their signature banter. The main stories discussed are the notorious "Axeman of New Orleans" serial killer case and the chilling William Bradford Bishop "family annihilator" mystery. The episode is a blend of murder lore, podcast nostalgia, personal anecdotes, and listener updates—with equal parts horror and humor.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

I. Revisiting Episode #60 ("Jazz It")

[02:18]

• Karen and Georgia kick off with new commentary and corrections on earlier stories, notably about the confusion between Dr. Sam Shepard (the inspiration for The Fugitive) and Dr. Jeffrey MacDonald (Fatal Vision case).

Quote:
"That's why at one point in that episode, I was like, 'what year was it?'... There’s no way there could be two doctors who killed their whole families!" – Karen [04:33]

II. On Live Shows, Audience Etiquette, and Corrections

[03:08]

• The hosts chat about the peculiar energy at live shows, listeners shouting things, and how they handle on-air mistakes.
• Karen admits to frequently "confidently" misspeaking, leading to a segment on self-correction and the importance of nuance (like not treating survivor responses or self-defense as universal advice).

Quote:
"It's those little lies... just as I talk, it's just all like, blah, blah, blah.” – Karen [06:25]

III. The Kelly Herron Update: Survival, Self-Defense & Advocacy

[07:00–08:43, 15:54–17:51]

• A memorable survivor moment from the original episode: Kelly Herron, a Seattle jogger, who famously fought off an attacker in a park bathroom with the phrase “not today, motherfucker.”
• Update: Kelly now co-teaches self-defense in Seattle and founded the Run Buddy safety app for joggers.

Quote:
"At one point she thought, 'this doesn't have to be a fair fight.'... That, to me, kind of hit me... this doesn't have to be civil. This can be fucking out of control.” – Georgia [08:29]

• Karen and Georgia discuss the importance—and reluctance—of taking self-defense classes, and the broader question of how women (especially) balance empowerment, safety advice, and societal expectations.

IV. Anecdotes on Religion, Upbringing, and Bat Mitzvahs

[11:50–14:00]

• Lighthearted comparison of Catholic confession with Jewish traditions, including Georgia’s bat mitzvah with a “lesbian rabbi” (“Nice, mom.") and feeling like an outsider in Orange County.

V. Tour News & Nostalgia

[15:14–15:50]

• The episode drops on the first day of the 2025 MFM live tour—“Who’d have thunk it?”—and the hosts reflect on their journey.

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Featured Murder Stories

1. The Axeman of New Orleans

[18:29–68:35] | Main story begins [25:39]

Summary

Karen revisits the infamous Axeman case—a series of grisly, unsolved murders in New Orleans (1918–1919), where an unknown killer broke into homes (typically those of Italian grocers), often killing entire families with their own axes or occasionally straight razors. The details are "chilling":

• Entry by chiseling out back doors
• No robbery; valuables untouched
• Eating food in victims' homes
• Survivors universally remember nothing (due to head trauma)

Most chilling detail:
A taunting letter from the Axeman (published March 1919) claims he’ll spare anyone who "jazzes it" (plays jazz music) on a certain night.

Quote:
"I am very fond of jazz music. And I swear by all the devils... that every person shall be spared in whom a jazz band is in full swing at the time I have just mentioned. If everyone has a jazz band going... well then so much the better..." – The Axeman’s letter [41:58]

• On the appointed night, reportedly, "everyone jazzed it"—no one was killed.
• Theories abound: a supernatural killer, a drifter hopping railroads, even (via local historian Bond Ruggles) a woman who outsmarted everyone.
• Documentary evidence and possible links connect the Axeman to a much wider, decades-spanning American (and even German) axe murder spree—often crossing state lines near railroads, always marked by extreme violence and lack of theft.

Quote:
"They start listing all of the other unrelated unsolved but full family axe murders... all near railroad tracks. So this guy could have just been hopping on a train and just going... You do it. Jump on a train. You were never there." – Karen [64:03]

Notable Moments

• The “not today, motherfucker” survivor story and its new update [15:54–16:57; see above]
• Listener gifts: the handmade “Papin sisters” charm necklace with a clay eyeball [24:08–24:56]
• “Jazz it” as the nickname and cultural legacy of the case [41:58–43:52]
• Bizarre ghost photo on a navy ship—alleged to be the Axeman’s spirit [61:05–63:16]

Theories & Updates

• Possible German immigrant perpetrator (based on language, writing, and evidence left at crime scenes)
• Theory: “The man on the train”—murders follow railroad lines; one killer behind many infamous unsolved axe murders [68:03]
• Bond Ruggles’ alternative theory: “What if the Axeman was a woman?” [66:36]

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2. William Bradford Bishop: The Vanishing Family Annihilator

[68:50–94:39] | Main story begins [74:43]

Summary

Georgia covers William Bradford Bishop—a “family annihilator” who, after missing out on a promotion in 1976, bought supplies (gas can, sledgehammer, shovel, pitchfork), bludgeoned his wife, mother, and three sons in Maryland, and transported their bodies for burning in rural North Carolina. Bishop, a Yale graduate, U.S. State Department officer, multilingual and a skilled traveler, disappeared and was never conclusively found.

Details:

• The murders discovered only after a neighbor’s concern; a bloody crime scene, particularly the children’s bedrooms (“hammer marks on the ceiling above the top bunk” [78:29])
• The case rankled investigators and Bishop’s psychiatrist (who quit practice, wracked with guilt)
• The hunt: Bishop’s trail goes cold after his dog is seen alive and his last known credit card purchase is logged.
• Three strong overseas sightings by acquaintances—suggesting he may have survived in Europe.

Quote:
"There's also, of course, been talk of Bishop being a victim of the MK Ultra mind control experiment by the CIA that went awry, causing him to kill his family..." – Georgia [86:38]

Notable Moments

• Hot-button comparison to John List, another family annihilator [90:09–90:23]
• The viral FBI "age progression" bust—“It’s Hugh Hefner’s creepy brother!” [83:38]
• Recurring motif: unbreakable patterns from childhood, “latchkey” loneliness, and the attempts to retroactively soothe your “inner child” with adult rituals [71:41–73:43, 82:02]

Updates

• [93:25] In 2021, DNA testing via 23andMe reveals that a woman, Kathy Gilchrist, is Bishop's biological daughter—born before the slain sons. This twist reopens public interest and FBI hope for closure.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

“Not Today, Motherfucker” Survivor Story

"I started clawing at his face. And I think that to me kind of hit me because it was like, this doesn't have to be civil. This can be fucking out of control." – Georgia [08:29]

Axeman on the Supernatural

"They have never caught me and they never will. They have never seen me, for I am invisible even as the ether that surrounds your earth. I am not a human being, but a spirit and a demon from the hottest hell..." – Axeman's letter [41:58]

Wittiest Food Comparison

_"You go... animal style. Like they serve it In-N-Out. You fucking go it." – Karen [09:12]
"Put that thousand island beat down." – Georgia [09:12]

On Cleaning Walls (Classic Banter)

"There are many walls in my house that look like the end of the Blair Witch, where there's just a bunch of child hands, like dirty fingerprints that look like people are trying to climb in or out of the house." – Karen [22:10]

Childhood & Rituals

"It seems like everything in adult life is just ways of kind of trying to... Give the child at that time a little bit of a bottle and like... somebody should have come and rubbed your back a little bit and made you actual food." – Karen [73:29]

On the Physical Toll of Laying Out in the Sun

"What am I, 37-year-old Georgia, tell her to get the fuck out of the sun. What is she doing? Why? Georgia, no, I'm just going to lay out for four hours... I don’t put any lotion on because you want to get the rays and the b. Georgia, stop it." – Georgia [98:17]

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Important Timestamps

• [07:00–08:53] – Self-defense, the “not today motherfucker” runner, and safety discourse
• [15:54–17:51] – Update on Kelly Herron and Run Buddy
• [25:39] – Beginning of the Axeman of New Orleans story
• [41:58–43:52] – Reading of Axeman’s letter, “jazz it or get the axe”
• [61:05] – Ghost photo/Navy ship Axeman theory
• [66:36–68:35] – Alternative theories about the Axeman’s identity
• [74:43–94:39] – William Bradford Bishop case
• [93:25] – DNA/daughter update

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Episode Ending: Light & Uplifting Moments

[94:50–99:37]

• Karen and Georgia revive the "good thing of the week" tradition—highlighting Georgia's poolside vitamin D quests and Karen's magical jasmine-scented neighborhood walks.
• Signature product endorsement detour: “magic erasers” for cleaning walls and the comedic speculation about their composition (“asbestos!”).

Quote:
"You are disgusting. And so, so are we. Magic eraser. That’s our promo." – Georgia [99:31]

• Final discussion: Renaming the episode, “Jazz It” holds up (“You're gonna pick Jazz it anyway because it’s the best title.”) [100:44]
• The episode closes with the beloved “stay sexy and don’t get murdered” sign-off... plus attempted pet meows.

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Additional Notable Sections

• Listener Gifts:
  Papin sisters–inspired handmade necklace and locket – [24:08–24:56]

• Religion and Confession ([11:50–14:00]):
  Anecdotes about Catholic third-grade confession stress and amusing cultural contrasts.

• Meta Moments:
  Contemplation of how many “to-do’s” and plans the hosts have made over the years—steeped in self-aware humor about procrastination and ambition [17:53–18:24]

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In Summary

This "rewind" balances true crime analysis with the hosts' trademark humor, skepticism, and empathy for victims, survivors, and listeners. The “Jazz It” episode remains a classic: celebrated for the macabre weirdness of the Axeman case, a memorable survivor’s grit, the unsettling Bradford Bishop mystery, and the hosts’ endearing tangents—ranging from childhood neuroses to the joys of a clean house. Whether you’re a diehard murderino or a new arrival, this episode is a perfect gateway to the offbeat brilliance of My Favorite Murder.

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Stay sexy, and don’t get murdered.

Transcript

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is exactly right. Candace, mother of two, nurse, CEO and founder of multi million dollar companies.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Candace went from being a stay at home mom to making millions, traveling the world and saving lives.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There was just one problem. Was it all a lie or was it all true?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It turns out the truth might be even harder to believe. From the creator of Scamanda. This is Unicorn Girl, an Apple original podcast produced by Seven Hills.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Apple TV plus subscribers get special early access to the entire season. Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

I've seen you in meetings taking them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You'Ve seen me do it. But I swear to God, it's like I can tell the difference. It is like, hey, here's a little support for your brain. Here's a little support for your heart. Here's a little support for your nervous system. It's amazing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

That's C-Y-M-B-I-O-T-I-K-A.com my favorite murder for 20% off plus free shipping.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

My favorite hello and welcome to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

[Karen Kilgariff]

As you well know, every Wednesday we recap our old podcast episodes with all new commentary, updates and insights.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And today we're recapping episode six 60, which we named Jazz It.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Perfect name.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Find out why.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So good. This episode came out on March 16, 2017, so let's get into it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The intro of episode 60, Jazz It. Hi.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hi.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hi.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How's it going?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Good. How are you?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Real good. Yourself?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Good, thank you. Good, good, good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is my favorite murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're a podcast that talks about true crime stories and really breaks them down.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yep. And that's all we talk about.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's. That's not true. There is a lot of lying on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This podcast, and we don't. Yeah, this is pretty. This is pretty exactly how it goes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. If you don't like it, go away.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't. Herin gets real mad at you guys. Sometimes. I feel like people kind of like at live shows, they like when you yell at them so they'll purposely, like, scream something.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, I mean, some of those live shows, it's like those people have never been in a theater or been to a live show before. Yeah. It's just like drunk girls who are repeat yelling the same thing over and over. That's not how you act. Then you hear other people shushing those people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's just intense. It's just like. It feels like there's a fight's gonna break out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it might be with you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, that's fine with me. I'm thoroughly trained.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You love a bar fight. God, I'm sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I do have some corrections. When you were talking about Sam Shepard and you told that story, I began to confuse Sam Shepard with Dr. Jeffrey McDonald, who also killed his whole family or is suspected of.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's the one with the. There was saying. There's three crazy people. They like to say these things.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Your guy Sam Shepard was in the early 60s. My guy that I was thinking you were talking about was in 69. And so the whole time. That's why at one point in that episode, I was like, what year was it? Because I was like, in my mind, there's no way there could be two doctors who killed their whole families and were, like, guilty or suspected and also equally not suspicious and got away.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, this is sham. Shepard's the one. Sham. He's a sham. Sam Shepard's the one who got kind of famous afterwards. Yeah. And like, was it kind of a douche? Right? They were both. But.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And they both. They both didn't kill their children who were sleeping in the bedroom next to where they killed their wives.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, I don't want to agree because.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I allegedly killed their wives. All right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But Dr. Jeffrey McDonald is the one who Fatal Vision is about and who is also the one who the Errol Morris new novel that's basically a refuting Fatal Vision is about.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wait, so refuting saying that he did or didn't do it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fatal Vision was basically Joe McGinnis making friends with Jeffrey McDonald and then being like, here's how he did it. And then when, like, in Errol Morris book, which I just got a book on tape of, they basically break down how it was just super mishandled. And like, it was just. They were trying to make money Helter Skelter style.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Got it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it was, you know, the whole thing was kind of unfairly presented, I guess. Okay, but I have to listen to the whole thing before I. I sure do love to talk about things. I don't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I feel like you shouldn't listen. Let's hear it now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's just theorize. Much like when I talked about scuba diving and I said that you have to have a partner because there's no way you can check your things.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, of course, then everyone on Twitter's like, yes, you can check your things.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's not like someone's going to be like, under the water.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What if they did, though?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Karen said, like, that's. You didn't need to correct that. You know what I mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, here's the thing, though. It's those little lies. Yeah, it's the same one as I said that my dad got chemotherapy three times a week. And then I thought about it this morning. I'm like, he got it once a week, then he got it for like, you know, eight, I don't know, three weeks, three months or something like that. But just as I talk, it's just all like, blah, blah, blah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But she sounds so confident about it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know, Like, I.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Very confident. No. Did you hear about the chick in Seattle? And I'm sure you did, because every single person in the world tweeted at us. But the girl who was running in the park in Seattle, in Ballard, which is like a nice little community, who got attacked in the bathroom in the public bathroom in the park, which I'm terrified of those. And she fucking fought him and said, not today, motherfucker. And here's the gray area is like, you don't want to say how badass she is, because there's. That's sending the message that you should always fight once. You know, that's. It's just such a situational thing. And like reading the situation. So you don't want to be like, beat the shit out of the person attacking you, because that could be the absolute wrong thing to do in that situation.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I say, in all of these scenarios, anything in life is a case by case situation. And just because we're saying it out loud doesn't mean it's a rule. Of any kind. Nobody needs to hear that in particular. But yeah, also if you, if you. I think in a situation like that, those bathrooms, it's like a secluded. She knows she's secluded in a park. And then even more so in that bathroom, it's a man inside the woman's bathroom. That's. There's nothing about this that can be turned around. So go for it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, that's true.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Go for it. You know, you know, as a human being, when you are in real danger.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's. Then just allow those instincts to take.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Over, I would say. Yeah, I think it's all instinctual. I don't think it's any thinking at that point.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck, man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I like the idea that like, I think. Didn't she say she had taken a self defense class? And so that's what. Where that came from is just like. Because that's the thing they teach you is you just start fucking yelling.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, the thing I really did like about it and I think what I took away from it is that at one point, you know, she was fighting him and at one point she thought in her mind, this doesn't have to be a fair fight. And so, you know, wasn't like wrestling. It was then she said, I started clawing at his face.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I think that that, that to me kind of hit me because it was like, this doesn't have to be civil. This can be fucking out of control.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. If there is someone in the bathroom that came into the bathroom to harm you or touch you in any way that you don't want to happen, you go. The knee goes to the nuts, the fingers go to the eyes and you fucking go for it. Animal style. Like they serve it in and out. You fucking go it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Put some thousand island on that. On that. Put that thousand island beat down.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You melt that cheese on top of that beat down girl.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And you put some sauteed onions and some Thousand island beat down do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's the. It's called the not today special and you give it. You serve it up for free, animal style. Yeah. 100%.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Bon appetit, mother.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We. We have to take a class so we can talk about actual. I want to do it really bad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's do it. Yeah, let's do it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think the reason that I hesitate if I'm going to be totally honest is because, you know, the suits that they make the people put on so that you can attack them or the.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ones that the dog attacks. Like to have the dog attack you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. But I'M really talking about the ones where the guy has to stand there, but there's like a grate in front of his face, but everything else is pads. I'm scared of that, of that character.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or putting that on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It looks like a. It looks like an off brand Michelin Man. That in and of itself is like, horrifying. I think it would, like, stop me in my tracks. Maybe it would make you feel.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fight him more. Maybe your instincts will kick in and you'll be like, well, I can do this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Maybe I'm afraid that my animal. Animal instincts will kick in. I'll pull that great out of the face and then in. In with the fingers and the eyes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Then I get sued. Maybe you should.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hey, you know what? Why is this creepy guy teaching this class anyways? Like, what's really his motive? Now he has your address because you had to fill out a thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Now he has my credit card number.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And your address and he's going to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Taco Del Taco every night on my dime.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know that's bullshit. Literal dime.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Who is this?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Tuesday nights.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You can get so much stuff.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. Oh, man. I fucking hit that place so hard. And Vince is out of town. I went to. Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you drive there?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. You mean. Mean because it's down the street from me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's not. It's. It's not super close. I wouldn't say it's super close.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I drove home and went there. But I did go out of my way to go to Carl's Jr. Like the day before.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's that fucking. When the dog's away, the. You know, the animals.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep. I bet you're farting all over this apartment too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I was.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's the fun of it. When you clean all up and you put on one of your nicer house dresses.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're like, welcome home.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, look how normal I am.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Look, I made you a casserole.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He married a normal wife. Way to go.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Totally normal. Wiping like weird beans out of the corner of your mouth.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thousand Island. Anything else?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Those were all my mistakes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Bless me, Father Fry. Sinned.

[Georgia Hardstark]

How long has it been since your last episode of My favorite murder?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's been. I mean, it's probably been 10. A good 10 years since my last.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Since you've been in a position? Yeah, I was always. I've always been creeped out by confession. As a Jewish person, I'm like, fuck it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, it's super weird. And the fact that they introduced it to you when you're in third grade is the creepiest part because they explain it to you. And for me, the type of person I was, which is hating to do anything I've never done before. I couldn't get anybody to explain it enough to me. Plus, you have to memorize. You have to have our Father, the Hail Mary and the act of contrition all memorized perfectly. So if you're in there and it's your line, like, you can't drop a line.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're like, I just learned my ABCs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. I'm like, fresh out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Calm down.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, adding and subtracting. And now I'm like, you have to recite an incantation to, like, just the shadow of a man's face behind it is the oldest looking inside those.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And who the fuck is he? Does he have your address?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Your home address?

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know what I mean? Like, what.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Why did he want my child's credit card?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Why did he fucking. Who is he to say.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Who is he to take my hard earned credit in third grade? Yeah, it's really crazily creepy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What's cool about Hebrew when you're, like, doing the prayers and stuff, is that a. They write it, like, phonetically, so you can, like, just follow that. And also they. You can just kind of make noise.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because the whole congregation singing it at once. It just kind of, you know, it's pretty great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That is good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So I don't know, do you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

When's the last time you went to temple?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my. Years and years and years. Oh, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you ever have the holiday thing where you're like, oh, it's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah, we go. We have holiday dinners. We get together for holidays and we'll say a couple of the prayers. But we don't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But you don't take it into that temple. Make it official.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. Very chill.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right, right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But I did have a bat mitzvah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did you stack that paper?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ah, kind of. I just want mitzvahed by a lesbian.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nice, mom.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thanks, Mom.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's really, really orange. Like, opposite Orange county of you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I like that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They don't really do stuff like that down there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. Yeah, it's pretty sweet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Anyways, it's surprising that you were a Jew in Orange County.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There weren't a lot of us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I bet.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We had temple in a church. We had Sunday school. I mean, we had Hebrew school and a Sunday school. There was like, Jesus posters all over the wall.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're like, you have an hour and no more.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Baruch Hatta, get it out of the way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye, we don't support what you're doing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Shalom. Get the fuck out of here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hey, how about take a look at this New Testament. That's where all the action is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So this is a podcast about true crime. Let's see who went first at the last show, the live show? Stephen, you did. I went first. Oh, you're right. Okay. Yeah. Molly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So it's me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. What? I'm just.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Everything's becoming a blur.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Why? In the what way?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I just. If you had made me guess just now, it wouldn't be like a cute for the show thing. I had absolutely not only no idea who went first or last. I couldn't remember if it was a live show or a pre recorded in this room show.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I get it. Like I'm not there. I'm not there either. I'm far away.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. And we are back from that intro. What's interesting, this episode will be coming out the first day of the My Favorite Murder Live tour.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. So it's September 3rd. We will be as we're speaking in Denver, Colorado at the Paramount Theater.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ooh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Beginning our tour. I mean, who'd have thunk it? But like back then, episode 60 to be like, guess what? Yeah, still happening.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And you'll be talking about it on an episode of a show you're not even doing yet that doesn't exist yet.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't even worry about it. Just do the show.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just keep going.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just keep going.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So that's it. There's actually a very exciting update for this episode. Do you want to talk about it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, we want to talk about the women that we had mentioned in the beginning of the episode. The woman who fought off her attacker. Her name is Kelly herron. She's a 36 year old runner. And as I said, she was attacked in a public restroom in Seattle on March 5, 2017 by a registered sex offender hiding in a stall. And she fought back. And now she co teaches self defense workshops, especially for runners and workplace groups, in participation with Fighting Chance Seattle, the same instructors who taught the class that empowered her to fight back in her 2017 attack. And she also co founded Run Buddy, a safety app for joggers. Like, what an incredible woman.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's so cool. If you're a jogger, please go download Run Buddy and support Kelly and all of her great work taking, you know, something horrible that happened in her life and from the second it started. I mean, to this day, I love her being like, not today, motherfucker. And it's like, feels to me like she's just continued that advocacy like out into the world.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so, so cool. I'm embarrassed to say I still have not taken a self defense class with you or without you. And it pops into my fucking head every couple months, you know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know, I know. We gotta do it. I mean, look, there's been some other stuff going on, but this, it would be a really cool, fun thing because I think it's like a great opportunity. Women like hanging out, learning something. It's constructive, it's empowering. But then also you're just like. It doesn't have to be like a sip and paint or a. You know what I mean? There's things people are doing or just going to a bar or whatever. It's like do something that's like as kind of that fun of a group activity. But then also learn how to break someone's trachea if you need to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. I mean, I follow a lot of those Instagram accounts now, but that's not gonna. Watching it's not gonna help me as much as doing it on a Michelin. A fake Michelin man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, yeah. Statue still scary.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I feel like we should count up all the things we've said we are gonna do on this show.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, no, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because there truly are probably 5,000.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. We just seem so flaky once we count the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think we already do. We're just, we have really good intentions and we're like, we really. We love our future selves and we wanna do so much for her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But our present selves love the couch.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, the couch is a beautiful place to be. We're. Yeah, I agree. We're ambitious and lazy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And those a great combination.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It is. All right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're doing fine.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, we're doing our best. So let's get into Karen's story about. Oh, this is a classic. The Axeman of New Orleans. A sleek professional website makes you look very put together even when you're wearing sweatpants and eating cereal out of a mug.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that's where Squarespace comes in.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Squarespace gives you everything you need to offer your services and get paid all in one place.

[Karen Kilgariff]

From consultations to experiences. Showcase your services with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your business.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And managing those payments is a breeze. In just a few clicks, you'll be able to accept payments with options like Klarna, Apple Pay, afterpay and more.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You'll get paid on time with professional on brand invoices and online payments, plus streamline your workflow with built in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools and get.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Discovered faster with Squarespace's built in SEO tools. With meta descriptions and auto generated sitemaps, you'll rank higher in search results globally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Go to squarespace.com murder for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use Offer Code murder to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's squarespace.com murder codemurder goodbye this is.

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[Karen Kilgariff]

So this Interestingly enough, I got this murder from one of my last packs of True Crime baseball cards that Stephen gave us for Christmas.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I keep forgetting to look at those.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Here's what I'm doing. So my new thing because it's spring is I just keep cleaning out drawers in my house or like containers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's awesome.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you. It feels good. I've also been wiping down walls, which is a really weird hypnotic thing to do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like with the magic eraser.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God, I'm obsessed with those.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly that. Because I didn't realize I had done look around in my house that much. Yeah, but there are walls.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She quoted look around. Like, open my eyeballs. You're like, don't put your glasses on when you go in your house.

[Karen Kilgariff]

My own home, in any real present way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I get it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because I have two dogs and one is a short to the ground dog. I didn't see that. There are many walls in my house that look like the end of the Blair Witch, where there's just a bunch of child hands, like dirty fingerprints that look like people are trying to climb in or out of the house.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cause he jumps up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, like they jump. And also the paint on the wall is old and it's really powdery and porous instead of the opposite.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I have that too. And it feels like chalk.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I need something semi gloss or I will lose my mind.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because with this other shit, you walk by and say the word dirt and there's a smudge on your wall. It is maddening. So anyway, I. But I looked. I realized how much I got used to it because I was like, that looks like a crime scene. Like, it looks weird. Like somebody tiny tried to pull their way along the wall. But it's just frank, like running out of one room and curbing. And like his. The little feet go up on the wall to get clunking into the wall. Why am I talking about. Oh, because so. So I clean. So on top of those.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just me and my free time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also cleaning out some drawers, found two more packets of the true crime, which I thought I was done with all of them. So I got super excited, opened one up, found this murder. Had never heard of. I think I'd heard of it, but just like, didn't really know any details or any specifics.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can we really quickly. And I just thought of this for you. Is that where you got the Pan Sisters from, like two episodes ago? Because I want to talk about the gift we got that the girl gave us at one of the live shows.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that's a good idea. Should we just do it now?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Okay. You guys remember the Pan sisters? They clawed the eyeballs out of their mistresses. And this girl brought us a little packet, and there was a. A little necklace in it that said, they're not marble. They're not marbles.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And there was a little locket that had the Papin sisters photograph in. And then there was like a handmade, like, clay eyeball.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it was just like the most well thought out gift, I think.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like these Three little almost charms in.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A box that no one would get if you didn't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then we, like opening it up and looking at them. Did we each get one or is that. We had one and it's going up into the box.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We each got one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. I can't believe that. So she made two eyes to charm to, Locketts to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I don't think I knew how to express to her, like, how in awe I was of it. And she acted like, oh, you know, stupid. And it's like, no, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We were like, this is amazing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We can't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We never get to do that because we kind of feel that way. I think I see us saying it a lot, but it really is true. When somebody is like, here's this thing I know you really like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And that's like, I didn't make it. Yeah. It's unbelievable.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's amazing. And it was. It's just a really good little eyeball, too, that's sitting there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Crazy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, so no problem. It's weird that you asked that, though, because the Pepin sisters were in this deck. Oh, my God, yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What are the chances?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I almost. I should have done it. I almost sent you a picture when I opened it, and they were like, the third people in. I should have taken the picture and sent it on our constant text thread that me, Stephen, and Georgia are just never not on now. That's our life.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's photos. It's fucking quotes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's Stephen going, they've asked you seven times. You have to answer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's our life. Anyhow, so I found this here. And then in my research, it exploded and flowered out into something else, which I just am kind of amazed by.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, so here's how we start. It's the Axeman of New Orleans. You know that one?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, so he was a serial killer who struck in the city of New Orleans from May 1918 through October of 1919. He attacked, obviously, using an ax that he found in the home. He didn't bring anything.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Each time he starts trying. Okay, tell me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. So it's. It's the turn of the century, so a lot of people have axes laying around the outside of their house. And a lot of the places where he attacked, well, in here, he sometimes did it with a straight razor, but mostly with an axe.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which one is worse? Straight razor.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Straight razor's fast. Yeah. I don't think you'd even feel it. I think you'd be like, why is my neck cold in this one, tiny.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's what I. I don't want. I want. No, I want to be clunked over the head and out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, then you want an ax?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I guess, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Which you in? An ax?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Jesus Christ. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think that's what it is, because straight razor, you would. But I. You'd bleed out so fast because it's just across the neck.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know if you would.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, you definitely have time to look around, panic.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't want that. So the. What's worse to me is straight razor. And what's worse to you?

[Karen Kilgariff]

You just. You want to be out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Makes sense. Yeah. Okay, so here's what happened. This guy would use the tools that he found in the home. He would kill the whole family, and he would hang out either before or after. They can't. They couldn't figure out before or after, oftentimes eating.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So they could have invited him in.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Could have. Usually the home is found locked when the police get there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it's never robbed, even though most of the time the people have valuables out very openly. Whatever. Never, ever any sign of robbery. And oftentimes mirrors and faces are covered with fabric.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Creepy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Okay, so it starts on May 22, 1918. So a grocer named Joseph Maggio was sleeping alongside his wife Catherine at their home on the corner of Upper Line and Magnolia streets for people that live in New Orleans. So a guy breaks into their house, he cuts their throats with a straight razor, and upon leaving, he bashes their heads in with an axe.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So he found both.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So you don't even need to choose.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. Here's where to take that off your plate.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't even need to ask you that. Don't even worry about it anymore. Cut that out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because you are going to feel both quickly and then. But it's over anyway.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Catherine's throat was cut so deep that her head was nearly severed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I hate that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's bad. And see, that's the thing is like in those Mafia movies and stuff, when the guys lean back and get at the barber to get shaved and the barber has the straight razor. And oft times, if it's a movie, they'll cut their throat for a total reason. But that bond of trust that you would have to have with that man because they're doing that to you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But I feel like a lot of times in movies I've seen, the guy would lean back to get shaved, close his eyes, and then the Mafia guy Would trade the places with the barber. So the barber didn't do it. He was just a neighborhood dude.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, but he stepped out of his place. He didn't retain his duty as the barber. Have fight and defend your life.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He has a family to worry about.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He. He took the oath. Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So for a moment, I was like, what?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that's right. The barber's oath.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Barber's oath. I mean, there's probably.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. In the apartment, the police found bloody. The bloody clothes of the murderer. So he changed into a clean set of clothes before he left, which is the. In, like, also reflects back to him, just chilling out, like, committing these terrible murders and just hanging out. So they didn't. Investigators didn't do a complete search of the premises after the bodies were removed. So later on, that bloody razor was found on a neighbor's lawn. And that razor that was used to kill the couple belonged to Andrew Maggio, who's the brother of Joseph, the grocer who was murdered in his bed. And Andrew owned a barbershop.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They were brother. Weird.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They were brothers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And those brothers are the people that found Joseph and his wife Catherine, because they were, like, staying at home and not answering the phone or whatever, not doing what they were supposed to be doing. And the three brothers went over there and found their bodies. So do his employee. Andrew's employee, Esteban Torres, told the police that Maggio had removed the razor from his shop two days prior to the murder, explaining that he wanted to have a nick honed from the blade. So the razor was out of the barbershop and had gotten to get fixed somewhere. So it's just out of the. It's in the mix now, I guess, is. What is the point of that. Maggio, who lived in the adjoining apartment to his brother's residence, discovered the gruesome scene two hours after the attacks occurred. And he blamed his failure to hear any noise related to the attacks in the early morning hours on his being drunk, because he had returned home the night before from a celebration due to his departure to join the Navy. Police, however, were surprised that he failed to hear the intruder, as he did make a forced entry into the home. So then Andrew Maggio, the brother of Joseph, became the police chief's prime suspect. But then he was released when investigators were convinced that his alibi held up. He also told police that there was an unknown man seen lurking near the residence prior to the murders.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So then. So that was May 22. About a month later, on June 27, in the early morning hours, Louise Bezumer and his. Oh, Louis, sorry, Louis Besumer. Let's say that because they're all French back there. In New Orleans, Louis Bessumer and his mistress Harriet Lowe were attacked in the quarters at the back of his grocery store. This is grocery store number two. Bessume was struck in the with a hatchet above his right temple which resulted in a possible skull fracture. And Harriet was hacked over the left ear and found unconscious. When the police arrived, they were discovered shortly after 7am in the morning by John Zanka who was the bakery truck driver. And he came to the grocery to make a delivery. And then he found both Louis Bessame and his mistress Harriet Lowe in a puddle of their own blood. And the ax which had belonged to Besame was found in the bathroom of the apartment. So Besame. So they lived. And he explained to the police that he'd been sleeping, he was bashed with a hatchet. And then police arrest Louis Obicon who was a 41 year old African American man who had been employed in Besame's store weeks before the attacks. But there was no evidence that proved that the man was guilty or even related to this. But the police arrested him nonetheless, stating that he had offered conflicting accounts of where he was the night of the murder or the morning of the murder. So then shortly after that, Harriet Lowe stated that she remembered having been attacked by a light skinned black man. But her statement was discounted by the police because of her head injury and because she was the mistress. She was an upstanding wife and robbery was said to be the explanation and what Obakan's motive was, except for nothing was removed from the Besame's home.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

So essentially what ends up happening is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Who knows? Can that be heard?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did you hear it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think it'll be like the ghost train, just kind of faintly there's a child screeching.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was like a bone chilling scream though.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Should I throw something off the balcony at them? Those little fuckers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Mrs. Harriet Lowe then starts to become like sensationalized in the newspaper. She can't stop talking to the press, she's criticizing the police. And then at one point, and this is the mistress. This is the mistress.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They got clowned in the head and.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They keep making a story about it because he basically got caught with his mistress and was still married.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And this is the story.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And this is the story, not the murder. Like a murderer. Well, it was all just again constantly in the paper, right? The Times Picayune sensationalized Low in her outspoken nature. Upon discovering that she was not the wife of Besame, but a mistress. A charity hospital source discovered the scandal when Besame asked to be directed to the room of Mrs. Harriet Lowe and was inevitably denied access as no woman by that name was a patient. So it's like he's not a relative, he can't visit her. Then his legal wife arrived from Cincinnati. Cincinnati in a couple days after the discovery, which further inflamed the ongoing drama.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And she was pissed as fuck.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Besame was released and the two lead investigators get demoted for unacceptable police work. Yes, but then Besame is arrested in August 1918 as Harriet Lowe, who is dying in a charity hospital after failed heart surgery, states that it was was Louis who attacked her with the hatchet.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Louis being the brother.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no, no. Louis Besame is. Is the grocer, is the guy that also got attacked.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay?

[Karen Kilgariff]

She basically is like, he did it, whatever. All right? But he was acquitted after 10 minutes. There was no proof. And it was. They knew she was just kind of this lunatic. Yeah, whatever. At least that's the story that I got. Okay, so then, August 5, 1918. A 28 year old woman named Mrs. Schneider, who was eight months pregnant, was attacked in the early evening of her hours on her house in Elmira Street. She woke to find a dark figure standing over here her. And was bashed in the face repeatedly. Her scalp was cut open, her face was completely covered in blood. She was discovered after midnight by her husband who had been returning from work. And she was still alive. And she claimed that she remembered nothing of the attack. She gave birth to a healthy baby girl two days after the incident, which is crazy. Nothing had been stolen from the home, even though there was cash left out. The windows and doors were not forced open. And they put together that she was attacked with a lamp on a bedside table.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't fucking attack pregnant people. I mean, don't attack anyone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But this guy really wants to attack everyone, as you will come to find out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right. So then five days later, on August 10, Joseph Romano, who's an elderly man living with his two nieces, the two nieces hear him make a noise in his room in their house that they live in together. And they go in and discover that their uncle had taken a serious blow to the head. He has sewed two huge cuts in his head. And they see the guy fleeing the scene as they walk, but they can't tell if he is thin or fat. They can't really say anything for sure. They both have conflicting views. And even though this old man was seriously injured, he could walk to the ambulance, but he still died two days later because of the severe head trauma. Nothing was stolen. They found a bloody ax in the backyard. And they discovered that a panel had been chiseled out of the back door. And that's how he was getting into these houses. He was just going up to the back door and like basically just making a little like prying it open, essentially like chiseling a spot open and then going in and unlocking it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think someone would hear that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, but it's there all asleep.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Luckily you whispered that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Tip, tip, tap, tip, tap, tap.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I still think you would have heard that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, you would hope, you would hope that these guys didn't. So then at this point, a man named John Dantonio, who was a retired Italian detective, started making public statements in which he hypothesized about this man who had committed these axeman murders. And he described the potential killer as an individual of dual personalities who killed without motive. And he said that it could very likely be a normal law abiding citizen who would be. Who was often overcome by an overwhelming desire to kill. And he later went on to describe the killer as a real doctor Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I just can't even.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, okay, so then on March 10, 1919. So about six months later, eight months later, Charles Cort Miglia, an immigrant who lived with his wife and baby on the corner of Jefferson and Second street in Gretna, Louisiana, which is a suburb of New Orleans. There's screams coming from their house. And so grocer Orlando Giordano rushes across the street to investigate, and he sees that Charles Cortimiglia, his wife Rosie, and their infant daughter had all been attacked by the unknown intruder. Rosie stood in the doorway with a head wound, clutching her deceased daughter. So this axe wielding motherfucker just goes in and kills everybody, no matter their age. I guess it sounds like you have to be a grocer of some kind that qualifies you. Or Italian, but just kills everybody in the apartment or in the room.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What the fuck?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's super crazy. Okay. And again, nothing. No, they weren't robbed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It ain't about that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, nothing stolen. The back door was chiseled. The bloody ax was found on the back porch. He like does it and then just would leave it and walk away.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I can't wait to find out who this motherfucker is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, so then the police are sent a letter, or a letter gets published in the newspaper. I don't know the order of how it got sent, but this is what it said. It said it was postmarked from hell. March 13, 1919. It reads, esteemed mortal. They have never caught me and they never will. They have never seen me, for I am invisible even as the ether that surrounds your earth. I am not a human being, but a spirit and a demon from the hottest hell. I am what you or Linians and your foolish policemen call the Axeman. When I see fit, I shall come and claim other victims. I alone know whom they shall be. I shall leave no clue except my bloody axe be smeared with blood and brains of he whom I have sent below to keep me company. If you wish, you may tell the police to be careful not to rile me. Of course. I am a reasonable spirit. I take no offense at the way they have conducted their investigations in the past. In fact, they have been so utterly stupid as to not only amuse me, but His Satanic Majesty, Francis Joseph. But tell them to beware. Let them not try to discover what I am. For it were better that they were never born than to incur the wrath of the Axeman. I don't think there's any need of such warning, for I feel the police will always dodge me as they have in the past. They are wise and know how to keep all away from harm. Undoubtedly, you Orleanians think of me as the most horrible murderer which I am. But I could be much worse if I wanted to. If I wished, I could pay a visit to your city every night at will. I could slay thousands of your best citizens. For I am in close relationship with the angel of Death. My now, to be exact, at 12:15 earthly time on next Tuesday night, I'm going to pass over New Orleans. In my infinite mercy, I'm going to make a little proposition to you people. Here it is. I am very fond of jazz music. And I swear by all the devils in the nether regions that every person shall be spared in whom a jazz band is in full swing at the time I have just mentioned. If everyone has a jazz band going, well, then so much the better for you people. One thing is certain, and that is that some of your people who do not not jazz it on Tuesday night, if there be any, we'll get the axe. Well, as I am cold and crave the warmth of my native Tartarus. And it is about time I leave your earthly home, I will cease my discourse hoping thou will publish this, that it may go well with the. I have Been, am and will be the worst spirit that ever existed, either in fact or realm of fancy. The Axeman.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Jesus, he's chatty. Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So it reminds me of Richard Romulus Ramirez's big speech in court where he's just like, I am the. Where it's that thing of like, you know, he is not just a man anymore. He's like become a God and all that kind of psychotic stuff. Yes, very psychotic, but also very biblical.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah, but also. Yeah. And the whole thing, the whole time I was like, well, the more you talk, the more. The more you write and the more information you give, you're just giving away and your more clues. So shut the fuck up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, yeah, but doesn't it seem like he has a bit of a. Like. Because isn't that essentially the story of Passover?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah. You'll pass over. You'll pass over the house if they have jazz music playing. That's exactly it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Isn't that why you guys have so much fun on Passover?

[Georgia Hardstark]

We have the best time. No, I was like, this is written by a fucking. A record label exec who's like, wants his jazz music to be playing people.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Who do not jazz it on Tuesday night.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's our new, like, Tuesday night club at whatever bar.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We gotta jazz it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Jazz it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And nobody likes jazz. So everyone's like, a little unhappy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. But it's like, well, we'll kill you if you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We just gotta do it. Just get through these next 15 minutes. Well, apparently so everyone jazzed it on that Tuesday night and no one was killed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Shut up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it actually worked. Excuse me. But then, of course, as it always.

[Georgia Hardstark]

As it always does it always but thens.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's so many but thens. August 10, Steve Boca, a grocer, is attacked in his bedroom as he sleeps.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wait, is he really purposely getting grocers?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, yes, because they all are.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What a bummer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, sell your business. It's so specific. But it's. They say grocer here, but I also think it means people who keep stores. So it's like sometimes it's a guy that has like a grocery store in.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A bar or type of place or some kind of thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it doesn't necessarily mean, like the big thing of lettuce that's on the sidewalk, per se.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A green grocer. They used to call them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. The green groceries, but there it is. People that own stores.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Weird.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Super fucking weird. Okay. So then he wakes in the night, finds a dark figure looming over him. When he regains consciousness. He runs into the street, finds that his head has been cracked open.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You found that? I found my head to be cracked open.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know what, I need help here. So he goes to his neighbor's house, collapses. Then the neighbor calls the police. Nothing's taken from the home. A panel on the back door had been chiseled away. Boker recovered from his injuries, but he had again, no memory. And that's every single person that survives. Knows nothing about what happened.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, head injuries.

[Karen Kilgariff]

September 13th, it happens again. Sarah Lahman was attacked on the night of September 13th. Her neighbors came to check on her because she lived alone and they hadn't seen her in a while. They broke into her house when she didn't answer and discovered the 19 year old lying unconscious on her bed, suffering from a severe head injury. Missing several teeth.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ooh, this guy goes straight for the fucking right to the face noggin.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, they say that all of the injuries were neck, head, and only a couple had on their defensive wounds on their arms. Most of them he would just get in there and chop. Very precisely.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Weird.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And sometimes he would obliterate the face of the man. Times he would rape.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The Bible. All right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, but here. So bloody axes discovered on the front lawn. She recovered from her injuries.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Could.

[Karen Kilgariff]

October 27, Mike Pepitone is attacked.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did you ask Eddie Pepitone?

[Karen Kilgariff]

If I get put in a call, he won't talk to me. That would be amazing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I've never heard that last name before anywhere.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know. So he sees his wife, is awakened by a noise and walks into the bedroom. Walks to the bedroom door just as a large axe wielding man is fleeing the scene. Oh my God. Mike had been struck in the head, was covered in his own blood. Blood spatter covered the majority of the room. But Mrs. Pepitone is unable to explain any of the killers, describe the killer in any way. I did read something that said Mrs. Pepitone. Mrs. Pepitone went on to shoot the man she believed was standing there. So this is a different story than the end of this one, which is basically she didn't know and she had nothing to explain say to the cops. There's another story that said Mrs. Pepitone knew who it was and after her husband, like a couple weeks after the murder, she shot the man in the street and then the murder stopped happening.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Who knows? And then she herself was convicted of murder and was in jail for 10 years.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What the shit?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Who knows about any of that? So, okay, so that's the. Those are. That's the full realm of the. Of the Axeman of New Orleans murders.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But then I watched a documentary on the YouTube that was actually very good, Although it seemed very like kind of homemade, self produced. The guy that was narrating it, I don't think his British accent was his original accent of life. It had a little bit of this feel to it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was. What's the word when you try too hard?

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're an actor.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yep.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It had a real actor feel.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Affect.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Affected.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Affected, yeah. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But it's really good. Good information. I could be totally wrong about the accent.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It also doesn't mean it's not real good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. But here's the thing. Every once in a while in this, it's like a 50 minute documentary. And every once in a while when he's talking about a different fact, there'll just be like a. A sound effect of screaming. So it's just like almost like haunted house style.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like our podcast with the children screaming outside.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I guess it is effective. So it's not, you know, it's affecting. It's affected. Okay. Okay. This documentary basically theorizes that the Axeman of New Orleans actually was killing for long before the New Orleans attacks and after. And he. So they just start saying. Because from 1879 to 1922 in America, there were lots and lots of ax murderers where a guy broke into the house by chiseling the back door. Chiseling that in the middle of the night, killing an entire family, not robbing them, using their own acts to do it with eating before or after hanging out in the house. Usually a farmer. Usually it's like a whole family. And it's kind of out in the middle of nowhere where it takes a couple days.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Rural.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Brutal as fuck.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, rural. Rural, Brutal. Rural.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The brutal, rural murders.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, so. And this is just. So the guy's just basically saying these aren't. This is so long ago. And this is like pre. Any of the police procedural knowledge that we have now. There also could be more and people just haven't connected the fact. But. Okay, so in 1879, an elderly couple. This is somewhere in Georgia. It's a rainy night. They're attacked, almost decapitated. And when the police investigate the crime scene, they find that someone had been hiding in upstairs room for minimum of two days because they. There were smoked cigarettes and human feces in there. So someone had snuck into their house, hung out, and then waited.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck, man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

For the nighttime.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's why I always want to live in a small House. I don't want there to be rooms that just don't get looked into.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, no attics. No. You could also, you could also like release, you know, I don't know, some kind of super dangerous animal every night just to take a run around the house.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cool.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I was gonna say cobra, but that'd be too scary.

[Georgia Hardstark]

How about a siamese? A cross eyed Siamese cat.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. He's very intimidating. So this is. It was their ax. The ax was left in the fireplace. There was no robbery, even though there was a stash of silver on like the kitchen counter. Five years later in 1884 in Austin, Texas, a woman named Molly Smith is attacked in her bed with an axe. And then the attacker pulls her outside into the backyard, rapes her and murders her outside.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Weird.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Several months later, Eliza Shelley is also murdered with an ax. Her head is split open. And on that one, the police noted that none of the dogs in the neighborhood barked. And there were dogs that were tied up right next door and they didn't bark or have a reaction of any kind the entire night. So it was a silent night on both of those nights.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Weird.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that freaked the police out really bad. Cause it's like usually you just get a little something.

[Georgia Hardstark]

People always. That note always freaks me out because it's clearly someone that the dogs know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. And that's been kind of doing their groundwork.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

To like make sure the dogs are like, he's gonna throw them food or something. Yeah, he's, he's. So four more people are killed in this same way. Slaughtered in their beds with their own axe. No robbery, the weapons left in the house until Christmas Eve of 1885. A couple is attacked and the bloodhound could, couldn't get a scent. Like they, they gave the, the bloodhound a thing to smell that was from the ax left behind and they couldn't get a scent. And they were like the best bloodhounds around or whatever. So again, it was that thing where the cops were like, maybe this is a demon. Like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or I guess this was before. So they would be like, huh, maybe some demon's going to write us a letter in 15 years.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, also here in like couple other places, they found bare footprints in the blood.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ooh, weird.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In 1897, this is 12 years later now, up in Paradise Ridge, Tennessee. The a family. A neighbor sees the aid family farmhouse on fire. And so he goes over to see what's happening. And not only is their house on fire fire, but their barn and a couple of Other buildings on their ranch. And when they put the fire out, they find the entire family has been murdered with an ax. The parents, the, their daughter who was in her 20s, the son who was 13, and a neighbor girl who was 10.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't think that's him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What's that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't think it's him. That one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The killer ate either before or after the killing. He hung out in the house and the neighbor girl, they think the way they traced it, she got away and he caught her, killed her and threw her back into the burning.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

14 years after that in I cannot see what that says something. Oregon, near Portland. It's near Portland. The Hill family is murdered in their house. The children are murdered in their beds. Everything is exactly the same, same. So it's all, it's just basically they've pulled all these crimes where like an entire family. No robbery, axe, head wounds, all of it. A month after that in Rainier, Washington, Archie Cobble and his wife are murdered in their bed with an Axe. In 1911, in Colorado Springs, a man walks into the home of Alex Bundchen, I think it says, and murdered her and her six year old daughter and her three year old son. And when her sister went to visit, she found the bodies. She ran outside and screamed for help. And everybody in the neighborhood came running except the family that lived next door, the Wayne family. And so they went to check on them and the wife, husband and one year old baby had all been slaughtered in their beds. And then the beds were made up after them like the killer had killed them and then tucked them back into bed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Horrifying.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So it looked like they were sleeping. Both of those cases, no robbery. Both houses were locked from the inside. Thirteen days after that, in Monmouth, Illinois, the First Presbyterian Church is not open for the service on Sunday. So everybody calls the caretaker who doesn't answer. They go to the caretaker's house and he, sorry, Mr. Danson is the caretaker. He, his wife and their teen daughter are murdered in their beds. There's no robbery. Two weeks later in Ellsworth, Kansas. Ellsworth, Kansas. The Sherman family hasn't been seen for a while. A neighbor that's worried about them because they weren't answering their phone goes to visit. All five of the Shermans have been murdered with an ax in their house. The police found the ax and the phone was ran with a piece of someone's clothing was wrapped around the phone. And the police later realized that it was probably because the neighbor was calling over and over and so he Wrapped that so he wouldn't have to hear.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The phone to silence it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Creepy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Two weeks later in Mount Pleasant, Iowa, Mr. J.B. jordan leaves for work. He doesn't lock the kitchen door. Their eldest son is upstairs. He hears his mother scream. He runs downstairs and finds that she's been attacked in her bed with an ax. She has an injury to her head, but she survives but remembers nothing. Nothing is they're not robbed and nobody sees anything. Eight months later in Paola, Kansas, a young couple in their early 20s. The Hudson's hadn't been seen. Neighbors check they're murdered in their bed. And that night, a family in the same town wakes to the sound of a lamp crashing to the floor. And the. The father goes downstairs to see what it is, and he sees a man leaving their house.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Less than a week later, and I think I'm pronouncing this right, in Valeska, Iowa, it's the Valeska axe murderers. Remember the. There was somebody that brought us a bag of stuff from the Valeska. I don't know if I'm pronouncing it right. Do you know Steven Valeska? Okay, so this is the most. This is one of the most famous axe murder cases. But I didn't realize that the theory is basically this is one guy, because the Valeska axe murder house. So it's the Moore family.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Was it like the murders from the Trim and Capote?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Similar.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Where they just killed that family for no reason. This is. It's their whole family. They'd gotten back from church and then nobody saw them for days. But they did see smoke coming out of the chimney, but they just didn't see them out on their farm doing their chores. So the neighbors were just like, what's. That's weird. So after three days, they go check. The entire family has been murdered with axes in their beds. Plus two little girls who were there for a sleepover that were neighbor girls. So eight people were murdered in this house with axes. And they found that the man had been hiding. Every mirror in the house was covered with a piece of clothing. Nothing had been stolen. The killer definitely spent at least two days there. Lots of like, had made food, left a bunch of stuff out. And he. They found proof again that he had waited in the attic for two days until nighttime so he could come out and surprise them and murder them. Them. And then in 1914, in Blue Island, Illinois, a family is found. This is two years later, a family is found murdered in their bed. And then that brings us up to then 1918 in New Orleans and then four years later in Germany. So then in the 1919 murder, Christmas Eve was the last one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. The Pepitones, where the chick shot at him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. Shot and killed somebody. And then the murders ended.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But in Germany, there was a farmer who saw a set of footprints, this story in the snow leading to his house but not away.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is the craziest story.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He searches his whole house top to bottom, doesn't find anything. Goes to bed that night, either that night or the next night. And then he's murdered. He and his family are murdered, and it's the exact same thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And that guy hides in their house, I think, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, he's hidden in their house, but they couldn't find where. All of the bodies in this were covered with sheets, or some of them are out in the barn, so they were covered in piles of hay. He stayed through the weekend, and there was no robbery. So it was exactly the same MO as all of these other ones. So basically. So it's just saying it could be this German immigrant, because on the Waleska Axe murder house, there was a note written in German under the table that was left behind. And there was another one of the women that survived in the earlier ones heard him speaking in German. So there was a theory that he was a German immigrant who kind of did this for what it seems like over 20, maybe 30 years, then takes a boat back to Germany. He's going to chill out, and then four years later, he can't wait anymore, and he does it again, or has.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Been doing it, and they just never got.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I just wonder if in town there was anyone who had, like, been away, if they had known to ask that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You mean in Germany?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's. It's super crazy. It's so extreme. So then this is the best part. But I don't. I don't get how it connects. It connects in this documentary perfectly because the guy is going like this, and it's like in 1994, but it's super awesome anyway, even if it's not real. But. So basically a guy. They have an old Navy ship that they're basically parting out because it's done for. It's retired or whatever they call that. And so this guy, it was his job to go through this Navy before they take it all apart and take pictures and record and basically do a report on what the status of the ship was and give inventory so they know what should be saved.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Creepy. To begin with. Can you imagine being alone On a fucking navy ship. Why alone?

[Karen Kilgariff]

And also there was. There was some extra things where I was like, we're gilding the lily here. Where it was like, red. Because he, you know, the whole ship was off. So he had a flashlight. Then he turned the flashlight off.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it was said that he was haunted.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean. Yeah, his camera.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But even still, when he turned all the pictures in and it was hundreds and hundreds of pictures, he got a frantic call back from, like, headquarters or whatever, and they're like, who's the old man with the ax in that picture?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So then they send him the picture.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. Are you gonna show me?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Shut the fuck up. It's real. Oh, my God. I'm gonna cry. I'm gonna cry. I'm gonna cry. Let me see here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Show Steve, Steven.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I dropped the phone. That is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I want to. Yeah, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's the creepiest, scariest thing I've ever seen in my life. Chills.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Chills, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

What can people. What do people, like, look up Axman Navy ship.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's exactly what I put in Old Man Axe. Oh, and look, there's a close up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't want it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Give it to me. For everybody else, we'll post it. But it's basically, you know, when you do you see like a ghost, a ghost investigator show, and they do a thing where they'll circle something in a picture and you're like, I have no idea what you're talking about. This is clearly a man on this ship with an ax in his hand.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The close up is less convincing to me, honestly. Like, it looks like the guy's wearing like a mask of, like, that commercial with the, like an old man mask, but the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The Six Flags guy that dances around but far away.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it's definitely an actual but far away. And like, yeah, that's. It looks like something you wouldn't notice until you saw the photo kind of a thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, also, I love the idea. Too close. I love the idea of this old guy is so good at, like, evading the police and getting away with stuff that he knows to like, oh, I'm just gonna go live on this old ship that they haven't parted out yet.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, that idea does link together well for me. And then they. At the end of this documentary, I highly recommend. And again, you just go put in the Axeman of New Orleans and it'll come up. It's the only one that's like 50 minutes long, but they start listing all of the other unrelated unsolved but full family axe murders where there was no robbery. And basically all of those qualifiers that I kept repeating. And there were probably eight of them additionally, that were just in random cities. And what I would love to do, and I'm sure somebody has, because they said somewhere, it said they were all near railroad tracks. So this guy could have just been hopping on a train and just going. Because he really does, clearly, is just a drifter that's going from place to place. And what a perfect way to be a murderer. You do it. Jump on a train. You were never there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm wondering if there's some German fairy tale that has to do with all the weird shit that was in that letter. Yeah, you know, like, he mentioned specific places that I'd never heard of, like, in regards to hell. So I wonder if, like, there's some connection there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. I wonder if they've done any kind of, like, studying Jack the Ripper style about it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I had no idea it was this, like, I found that to be so fascinating because it is one of those things like the Valeska Ax murder house and that whole. It's so crazy that it is a standalone murder story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But it could possibly be connected to this other, like, just a crazy serial killer that if. If it is this guy, he killed 61 people. Of the cases they know about as.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A standalone murder, it's like, well, it's someone they knew or that had a beef with someone or that, you know, they were partners with in business, and so they wanted it to himself. But if it's not, then that's. Even then, that makes almost more sense.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. It's just the house by the railroad tracks where he felt like jumping off, like the first place needed food.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Lows.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Kind of interesting. I'm sure there's plenty more. Other people know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That photo is horrifying.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Get ready to enjoy it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

People of New Orleans listening.

[Georgia Hardstark]

People of New Orleans. Okay, we're back. Karen, do you have any updates?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No updates, but there are some interesting theories about this case and the identity of the Axeman. A New Orleans historian named Bond Ruggles thinks that the Axeman was not a man, but believes it was a woman who outsmarted everyone. And her theory points to the survivors who were struck repeatedly but left alive. And Ruggles says if a man had done it, they'd be dead. And then she also cites the small entry points that were cut into the doors that the killer came through. And in another twist, she suggests that Mike Pepitone's widow One of the victims, widows and the man she shot were in on these murders together and that they were lovers and that she framed him basically to inherit everything.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I also have a theory which I bring up anytime I have the opportunity to, which is based on the book the man on the Train, my favorite true crime book. And what's crazy is there's already theories, and I mention it in the episode, that one of the theories is it might have been a drifter or an immigrant, which is a weird racist thing from the past where it's like it was a drifter, a fully American drifter traveling by train between towns and the man on the train. Please read the book if you haven't. But it fits perfectly into the timeline, the mo, all the different things of the man on the train.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know you love that one and it's so fascinating.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, just like that idea that there's one guy doing all these horrible things and that it can be traced together. I mean, it's just. It's so crazy. The idea also of just an axe murderer going unfound, the case going unsolved, like you would think. I mean, I don't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, how many. Yeah. How many serial murderers and how many people? Like, it's just so easy to disappear back then. Up until like, pretty recently.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, just. Yep.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know, it's a scary thought.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Jump on a train, dragging your bloody axe behind you. You'll be fine. It's insane. All right, so let's now get into Georgia's story from this episode. It's about William Bradford Bishop.

[Andrea Gunning]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

We'Re talking about lights being depressing randomly. We had a pause.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, we have to have a human.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Break and I made Stephen turn the kitchen lights on because it's dusk, which depresses the shit out of me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I was saying that. It's. You know what gets me is I have a friend who has that same thing where he has a whole system. If he has to go around that house and turn everything on like when the sun is beginning to go down.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Me too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's not even like when it's down. I have the opposite thing of when I get up in the morning if there's a lamp on, it's that thing of why are we even doing this feeling where it's like no one turned the lights off last night or like no one's minding the shop feeling that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Makes me really mad it never got shut down. Yes, I feel the same way about when I wake up and come out and the house is messy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What's funny about that I was talking about that is when therapy the other day, we kind of pieced it together that that might be why between like 3 o' clock and 7 o', clock, I always want to go have a drink and, like have a happy hour. Like pick Vince up from work and we go have a drink. And it's like, I want to make this part a celebration because. But then after that I'm fine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can I just put out a suggestion that you've probably already talked about, which is. But 3 o' clock now, 7 o' clock is the latchkey time where you're home by yourself after school before anybody gets home from work.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's exactly it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's a rough time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. It's total latchkey, latchkey shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. That to me, that time is like three to seven is all about watching tv. I'm not interested in watching. But we won't not watch tv, like if there's nothing on back in the time where there was times where there was nothing on, but we'd still just sit there and force ourselves to watch. Like Star Trek. Yes. It was always reruns of Star Trek, which my sister and I didn't like, but we were like, well, there's nothing else on what's on right now. And now I'm like an expert because of that. I've seen all of them 15 times.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I've seen a ton Next Generation. Oh, every episode I've seen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It seems like everything in adult life is just ways of kind of trying to get. Give the child at that time a little bit of a bottle and like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Shut the fuck up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, well, that's why I like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Drinking booze or anything.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like everybody has a thing, but you're just kind of. It's almost like you're trying to go back and be like, somebody should have been here and given you this. Oh, somebody should have like. You know what I mean? Somebody should have come and rubbed your back a little bit and made you actual food.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And that's my. That's a lot of my therapy is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Is that same's hers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. It's the shit that like your fucking patterns that you keep repeating until adulthood in some weird way that I'm now trying to. Like you're now doing your best to fucking break.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. But it feels fraudulent.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It doesn't. It feels like everything's gonna fall apart.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Apart all the time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hanging by a string all the Time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's why we like podcasts.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fucking murder. Cause that's truth.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That is true.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's fucking and preaching it truth. Okay, Speaking of. Hey Karen, are you ready for a family annihilator?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ready for William Bradford Bishop. Ooh, okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, Bill Bishop from down the street.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Billy Bish. Bill Bishad. Bish. Did I say that right? No. Bill Bradbish. Okay. Anyways, on the morning of March 1, 1976, in good old Bethesda, Maryland, Maryland, William Bradford Bishop, who's a 39 year old Yale graduate and oh my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Say that with more disdain in your voice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did I say it? Yale graduate. I didn't even do that on purpose. College. You think you're better than me?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fucking college. Oh, you're not better than me because you fucking went to school with Ivy on it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, you're a Yali graduate. Then United States foreign service officer learns that he is not getting the promotion that he expected. He tells his secretary he might be getting the flu and leaves work. He withdraws $400 from his bank, drives to Sears and buys a gas can and a sledgehammer. Uh oh, a sledgehammer or a ball peen hammer, which you've mentioned before and I had no idea what it was.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sledgehammers are big and ball peen hammers are normal hammers, right? I believe so.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think you're right. So I don't know how those could have been. Anyways, he also buys a shovel and a pitchfork. Work. Then he heads home to his wife, mother and three children.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Now if you're working at that Sears, you're like, I think this guy might be starting his own hardware store using our stuff.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, going home to garden.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How about, why don't you just mark his name down? Yeah, something, make a list.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, just, just follow him home and make sure that he doesn't someone do something, annihilate the next day. So the next. He does all that. The next day that a six hour drive from Bethesda and about five miles from Columbia, North Carolina, in a wooded swampy forest area. A forest ranger's dispatch to an area where smoke is rising from the trees. There he finds five burned bodies.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oof.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The burned bodies aren't identified for a week until a neighbor of the Bishop's calls the police worried that he hasn't seen the family in a week. When the police enter the Bradford home, they find a bloodbath with spattered blood on the floors and walls. And the children's room is covered ceiling to floor in blood and it's then that the shovel from the scene of the burning bodies is traced back to a hardware store in Bethesda. And the police make the connection.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You mean a Sears. No, sorry, just kidding.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A Sears, Roebucks & Co. At the time. We're gonna be specific.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It is actually technically a Sears Roeb 1976.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know what I'm saying? I mean. Yeah. All right, so police think that Bradford killed his wife, who was his high school sweetheart, Annette first. Followed by his mother, Lobella, who was returning home from walking the family's golden retriever, Leo. Spoiler alert. Leo's okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, good. Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mom and wife so far dead.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Very much dead. Bludgeon. Bad, bad, bad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Bludgeon as fuck. Then he kills his three boys. 15 year old Brad, 10 year old Brenton and 5 year old Jeffrey were killed while they slept in their beds in an upstairs bedroom. All of them bludgeoned. Here's a fucking horrifying part. The detective says that in his 12 years as an officer, he. It was one of the worst. It was the worst crime scene he had ever observed. And he notes that there were hammer marks on the ceiling above the top bunk bed in one of the boys bedrooms. Which told how many times and how viciously Bishop had struck his son. So in though like back and then blow. He hits the ceiling.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, dude.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So a massive manhunt ensues for Bishop. The family station wagon that was used to transport the bodies to be burned was found abandoned in a parking lot hundreds of miles west from where the bodies were found. And Bishop's also identified by the clerk of a sporting goods store in Jacksonville, North Carolina. Using his credit card to play purchase Converse shoes. The same day that the bodies were found.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Was he coming to Silver Lake?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know, I added that because I just thought it was so.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that detail. I thought you meant like we were making the same joke.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's super.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Some articles said tennis shoes and I'm like, no, Converse. That's like a specific thing because we all own them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's right. And also it sounds like because he was. Did you say he was in the Navy or something? Some kind of military guy. So he's trying to play a different character, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sure. He's blending in hippie.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's trying to bring his hippie to the west Coast.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Or be a skater, you know what I mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that man turned out to be.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, who's a skate? I can't think of anyone because I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Tony, I was Going say Peralta. Oh, Stacy Peralta.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There we go. Stephen, I'm.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm a poser. I'm a poser.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A poser. You're not posing to be a skating.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm trying to make people think I skate.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hey, bro. Okay. Da, da, da, da. Converse shoes. Same day the bodies are found. And it's also said that he had the dog on a leash with him. So he didn't. And when I first read this whole article, it was that the dog was killed, too. And I'm like, people are not gonna fucking like that. But the dog is on a leash, and he seems to be okay. After that sighting, the trail goes cold. And since Bishop spoke six languages fluently, knew how to fly a plane, and had lived throughout the world and possibly had fake IDs because of his work at the State Department, department finding him didn't look good. Law enforcement tried to get his psychotherapy records from his shrink, who Bishop had been seeing once or twice a week for five years. But the shrink refused, saying, you know, doctor patient privilege. But it's been said that the doctor was so shaken by Bishop's crime that he quit his practice, which is. Can you imagine not spotting that for five fucking years? Or having spotted it and not done anything about it? That's horrible. What's worse? I think. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Not having done anything about it, like thinking that you were wrong or doubting yourself.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or something.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or just being like, am I? But after five years, I feel like five years of. You just have to be. If you can manipulate a psychotherapist for five years, you're some fucking craziness.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Also, if he was a military man, I bet you he wasn't all that forthcoming. Isn't that kind of a personality trait of, you're not really supposed to be that way in the military.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, that's funny that you say that, because I read something that said that if. If you were in. Whatever rank he was in and you were going to psychotherapy, that was grounds for dismissal.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So on top of that, he probably wasn't. Didn't also want to be like, yeah, and I want to murder my family. So, like, it couldn't even get out that he was in there. Whoa.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So. That's so fucked up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so fucked up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh. So getting help from. For being in, like, a conflict based business.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. Where, like, you could have PTSD for whatever reason, you're not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You cannot be in therapy or you're.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Traveling the fucking world and your family's Home. And there's. It's rough at home. Or you have money issues, it can't be like that anymore.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or you got left at home between three and seven every goddamn day of the week. Like you were just some sort of.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And you had no idea what time your parents were coming home. And you were sick of peanut butter sandwiches.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You had eaten so much toast that you felt sick.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Toast.

[Karen Kilgariff]

God, we ate a lot of toast.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We ate so much toast.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So much cheese.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Toast at this day is one of my favorite things. But of course, my brother would eat all the fucking cheese in the house.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So it would be peanut butter toast we would do. My sister got really into making quesadillas, but she wouldn't make me one that was, you know, anything she could pull away, anything she could hold over me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Quesadilla at that point was a tortilla with a slice of American and cheese in the microwave for a minute.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then she crunched it closed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. She would get a Get Fancy and put it in a pan.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, she thinks she's fucking. Yeah, Julia Child.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She thought she was going for it. And I was like, clear the area. I'm trying to butter some crackers. Like, basically all we were trying to do is crackers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Stacking up buttered crackers and then drinking 7Up. And it's just basically put a whole.

[Georgia Hardstark]

One in your mouth at once. I have so many feelings.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right now, I. All right, so. On March 19, 1976, a grand jury indicts Bishop on five counts of first degree murder. But to this day, Karen Bishop has never been found. Whoa. Yep. So there's this photo of him from when he was young that they all show. And he looks a little bit like Lee Harvey Oswald meets John Belushi, if you can picture that. Oh, it's weird. Like, you're kind of like, he's kind of hot. But then he has this weird, smug, tight closed smile that looks creepy since you know what he did. And then they made one of those busts of him, of what he would look like if he were older. And it's super creepy as well. And I'm sure that he's Hugh Hefner. It's Hugh Hefner. It's so it's Hugh Bucking Hefner.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is the bus the future leads.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can you pull that up? It's William Bradford Bishop bust.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's just a cover of Playboy magazine, Steven. No, not Hugh Hefner's picture.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just pulls that up. All right, so There have been three credible sightings of Bishop. One was in July 1978. A Swedish woman who had worked with Bishop before the murders said she spotted him. Stephen's got it right. Am I right? I mean.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no, let me say it's so. It looks like. Is it Frank Langella? No, he's the guy that always plays like a.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's just like, hey, kid. Hilarious, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's missing the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly like Hugh Hefner.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's missing, like, the bathrobe. Yeah. And that's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, he's like, if Hugh Hefner had a trucker brother.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, that's what that guy looks like. Creepy. Okay. July 1978. Swedish woman who had worked with him prior to the murders, she said she spotted him twice in a public park in Stockholm, Sweden, in a span of a week. And she stated that she was absolutely certain that it was Bishop then. And this is interesting, because it's all people who knew him, you know? So. In July 1979, he was reported to have been seen by a former U.S. state Department colleague in a restroom in Sorrento, Italy. The colleague greeted him, and he said he was bearded. He had personally believed to be Bishop, eye to eye. And he asked the man impulsively, hey, you're Brad Bishop, aren't you? The man panicked, suddenly responding in a distinctly American accent, saying, oh, God, no. And then he ran swiftly out of the restroom and fled. But he started shaking and panicking when he asked him, mm. This is all, like, kind of confirmed that these could actually be sightings. It wasn't just, like, rando stuff, like, hokey bullshit. On September 19th.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was a little. It was kind of.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, yeah, it wasn't Unsolved Mysteries, but it was, you know, all right, on September 19th, I'm sure this was on Unsolved Mysteries, too. On September 19th, 1994, in Basel, Switzerland, a neighbor who had known a Bishop and his family in Bethesda reports that she. She had seen Bishop from a few feet away while on vacation. The neighbor described Bishop as, well groomed. So all people who knew him well enough to recognize him then. And I thought this was so exciting. A John Doe who was struck by a car while walking down a Highway in 1981, who was a person who appeared to be homeless, ended up getting exhumed after a local resident thought that the bust of Bishop looked like this doe. And I fucking lost my mind. I. It looks so much like him that you are sure it's him and it's fucking not. But I think they fucked up the DNA test because it's fucking him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's also, of course, been talk of Bishop being a victim of the MK Ultra mind control experience by the CIA that went awry, causing him to kill his family, which is like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, is that the right time frame?

[Georgia Hardstark]

The 60s, 70s?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I guess so. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That they. They. I feel like they dosed a lot of people on acid back then, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think so. But it's. That's so close to the 80s. I feel like it was shut down by then. But I mean, look, if people theorize that, it's because it's. It wasn't. And also, it was a secret, I.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mean, Karen government thing probably still going.

[Karen Kilgariff]

On to this day.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Steven. Steven is an MK Ultra. Something.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I knew it. That's what it is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's totally what it is. You're like. And his mustache is a fucking recording device. It's like a. No, because no matter how much we make fun of it, he won't shave.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So up in there, he fucking sets the two hugest microphones up every time. But his mustache is the recording device. These are all fake. You caught me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You should hear the shit we say when it's not recording and the shit we actually make him edit out. That's the. Like, we are Russian operative spies. It's true.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, well, I do love mklr is if. If, you know, somebody was asking if something could get solved, Right? Somebody was asking us that the other day, like, conversationally and I. It's always like. We always say, like, JonBenet or blah, blah, blah, whatever. But then just thinking about that, like, I would love the Real Deal report.

[Georgia Hardstark]

On mkl, the list of things that have happened because of it. Yeah, that's a good one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, the real. You know, there was like, the one guy that they. The family is like, there's no way he would have committed suicide. And it was like he jumped out of a window.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And there was just.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, there's a million of those.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And they're always like those. That would be good. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so fascinating.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's also like. It's an. It's easy. Easy, though. You know what I mean? Like, it's one of those things where it's like, oh, she was a runaway. It's like. No, it's much more comp. It's much more simple than that. Or something.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or that's simple. Okay. Anyways, blah, blah, blah. I think it's more likely that he was depressed. He was also having financial trouble and that he was a fucking dick. If he were still alive today, he would be 80 years old. So he could still be alive.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So everyone go. Go find Hugh Hefner's creepy brother.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So I. God, that's interesting. To be guilty of a crime and run to Stockholm, Sweden and still run into someone that you know because like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

How annoying is that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. And because he was in the military, he probably went to military ish places. Right. Like when he places he knew from having gone there before from. For his job.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You think he wouldn't though, because. Because then people would recognize him there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Of all the places you would have to list. Okay, this guy ran. Where'd he go? He'd went to la, he went to California.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Go.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Always go west. Instead he went east and then he went to a place where like Stockholm, Sweden is just like nobody really.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You would just blend.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's a lot of places you could. And you know, it was the time when like you. You could. You didn't need a passport or, you know, your name didn't even have to be on the ticket and. Yeah, and he had a weak start because they didn't. A weak head start. Yeah, because, you know, they didn't identify the bodies until then.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, he was all free and clear.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What a creepy. He fucking. He didn't just murder them and leave their bodies. He murdered them, drove six hours away, dug a fucking shallow hole and put the gasoline that he had bought that day on the bodies and lit them. His mom, his high school sweetheart and his three children.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's almost the same as John List.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so much like John List, except.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And not to say my guy was better than your guy, but John List shot everybody in the back of that. Nobody knew anything was happening. He just took him out from behind.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think he might have as well if you're gonna in. Well, no, I just think like yours has a good. I guess they both have good closures where it's like the money was in the ceiling the whole time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know. No, but this one, I'm saying it's. The murder is so much more personal and awful and like, you know, hammer marks, ceiling type of shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's not like trying to end it quick.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, what the fuck?

[Georgia Hardstark]

But he waited till they were sleeping. He didn't come home until they were asleep. And then mom was. His mom was. Was on a walk with the dog that he. That she'd do every night.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's just not.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You can't find a lot of details about what. How it happened either, which is like there's no, like, in this room, this happened while his wife was cooking or whatever the fuck.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, what was he like? Just like. If you were in the cafeteria at the same time, was. Do you think he was like, clearly one of those, like, a closed fist of a person? Or do you think it was all like. Like, still run deep and he was just, like, chill and nothing was going on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There was not a single thing that I saw that was like. And you always see this. Everyone said he was such a great guy. And everyone, like. So I don't think he was.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He could have been tightly wound.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. I don't think people weren't like, we were so surprised.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No one said that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

As far as I could tell. Fuck. Yeah. So that is Family Annihilator, William Bradford Bishop.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow. Bill Bishop.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's. That's like, I've never heard of that guy. And it's truly awful.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Isn't that creepy?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, once you kill them, you're gonna run anyway. Why do you have to burn the bodies?

[Georgia Hardstark]

You got that head start, but, like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That'S just one chore. You don't have to do like, you. You've killed your whole family.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They're probably not gonna get found for a week.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But I mean, like, either way, it's not like you killed one member of your family and everyone else doesn't know what's happening or something. It's like you've taken out an entire family unit. People are gonna catch on no matter. Matter what the state of their corpses is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so fucked up. I mean, it's too much.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's pretty amazing that they were able to actually identify the bodies, because if he hadn't left that shovel behind, they would have never gone. They would have never talked to Bethesda, Maryland, because they identified it as one of two hardware stores in Bethesda.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it was hundreds of miles away. Right. You said six.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Six hours away or something. So if he hadn't kind of fucked up and left a shovel behind, they would have never been traced to each other. Did he want to? Yeah, maybe. It was probably his. I don't think he wanted to get caught.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You don't burn bodies. You specifically don't want to get caught if you burn bodies.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's just he did everything the worst way possible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He really did. And he was never fucking found. And which is so disappointing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, but he got that military edge. He's like a Bourne esque. He's a Jason Bourne type. Bad Bourne.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, bad born.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And we're back. Are there any updates for this case?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I do have some updates. The authorities are still looking for William Bradford Bishop, which is wild. In 2021, a North Carolina woman named Kathy Gilchrist made headlines when her 23andMe test led her to believe that Bishop was her biological father. Can you even imagine?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Kathy was born before Bishop's murdered children were born. She was adopted as a baby and never knew her biological parents. The FBI later confirmed that their DNA matched. I mean, like, so. FBI agents have wondered if Bishop's hidden past could play into his motive for the murders, which remains elusive, and expressed hope that Kathy's discovery would renew interest in this case and drum up leads.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, that's the wildest, kind of, like, futuristic twist for this, where you're just trying to find out if you have cousins in the next town over, and it's like, guess what? Your father is a family annihilator.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, that's a oh, maybe I didn't want to know everything kind of moment, I would think.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But that kind of weird coincidence or whatever they're calling it in the press. If that's what it takes to renew interests and try to figure it out. If they can find this guy, then great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Definitely.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Now we're gonna let you guys listen to the recurring theme that we were doing back in 2017 of good things of the week.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hey, how about one positive thing that happened? Let's get of here, out of there. What about so we try to end this with something positive because we don't want to end on a family annihilator?

[Karen Kilgariff]

A thing that makes us happy. A thing that we like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A thing that we've noticed lately. That's fun.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. You just shook your head terrifyingly at me. Mine. Is that because 3 o' clock to 7 o' clock is so hard for. What the fuck? Hate neighbors.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was creepy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They just moved in, so they're, like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Putting things up and shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're podcasting also.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It just was so light. It was really creepy. Yeah, they're trying to be quiet.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, so. Oh, yeah. Okay. So from three to seven. So it's hard for me. So the thing I've been doing this past week to try to, like, make it positive. Did Mimi scare the shit out of you just now? Hi, little girl. The thing I've been laying out at the. The pool in the sun, and it's been fucking phenomenal.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that's good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Making me so happy and so, like. Like, I feel like I'm in paradise.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's really good. I wonder if you had maybe a little vitamin D deficiency and you need a little sunlight. Your little, what do they call it, weather, depression or whatever.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, definitely. And it's just this thing of like, okay, here's celebrating life in a different way than alcohol and charcuterie.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which. Which man still sounds so much better, but whatever.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, it's definitely faster, but it's so relaxing when you're outside. I've been actually sitting outside at my house too. It's just so relaxing. And it's been mine. Okay, I guess mine will be. I walked my dogs in my neighbor, the neighborhood kind of near me, which is nice, last night. And it was as if all the jasmine in the whole neighborhood bloomed at one time. No, it was crazy. It's walking around a neighborhood and it smelled like the inside of a florist shop was one of the weirdest things of all time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's this moment in LA and it's such a quick moment where all the jasmine blooms and it only happens for like a very short time during the year. And it's fucking fabulous.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's crazy. And when you walk like I was coming home from something and from my, from like the lift to the front door, the smell was so beautiful and strong. I was like, I have to walk my dogs right now. Like I need to be out in this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's very cool.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's a good one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And also because I've been in my house doing nothing but like binge watching TV and cleaning the walls and, and wiping down walls. The difference it makes when your walls are clean, I just highly recommend it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You don't think about it until someone else does it, that you pay them to do it and they're like, oh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But also when you get one of those magic erasers, they really do work.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know, I love it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What's it, a Mr. Clean thing?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Or you can get a Target brand.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like a little bleach sponge. It's a white sponge that when you touch it to things, it just makes marks and nicks and shitty looking things go away.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I bet it's made of asbestos.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I hold it in my hand for like hours at a time, let it dissolve. All of this is leaching into my system.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know what, maybe it'll clean it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Out a little bit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean the end days are going to come before you can die of asbestos poisoning probably, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

What if the magic eraser is the new green juice and that's the way to detox. It's just A magic erase. Both hands.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Every morning.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm just picturing that. Okay, we're back. I would love to go back to. What am I, 37 year old Georgia and tell her to get the. Out of the sun. What is she doing? Why? Georgia, no, I'm just going to lay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Out for four hours and see if it helps me in any way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't put any lotion on because you want to get the rays and the b. Georgia, stop it. You. You guys, listen to your future self. Do not lay out in the sun for long periods of time. At least.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, I mean, not every day. You gotta really. You gotta watch that for sure, honey. Also, it's too bad we couldn't have done some sort of integration with the Magic Eraser people, because I really. I think I sold a couple with that. The way I endorse that thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hey, man, it's not too late. I fucking love a magic erase. Afternoon of just slowly walking around the house with a book on my headphones. You just. You notice so many things. You never notice. Oh, it's so relaxing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Check your door jamb, your door jambs and near knobs of doors. It's wild how gross those areas get.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Check your light switches. It's. Oh, the baseboards. I mean.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, you're disgusting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You are disgusting. And so, so are we. Magic eraser. That's our. That's our promo.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's right. Okay, so now that we're here at the end, we're gonna rename this episode. Although I'm gonna make an argument. This is one of the rare ones where I'm like, this is the best name we could possibly come up with. I don't know if we get better than Jazzit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Jazzit's pretty good. Thousand island would work like animal style. Yeah, some Thousand island on it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, also saying, you can't drop a line in confession. You have to know all your pairs. You can't screw up your lines in conf. You have to know every single Hail Mary, every single our Father.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That seems too hard.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's really hard. It was very stressful in like third grade knowing you had to memorize that word for word.

[Georgia Hardstark]

At least in like Hebrew prayers you can fake it because you can just. You can fake Hebrew.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, you just like, turn the accent on a little stronger.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, if you're all singing it together, you can kind of just say gibberish and. Yeah, no one knows that. You don't know how to say the cosmic.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're just rhubarbing your Way through the cottage. That's wrong.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm telling I don't go to hell, so it's fine. Oh, that's right. We can also call it He Took an Oath. Yeah, that's a good one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Barber Oath. That's right, the Barber Oath. Yeah. Well, that's it. We've given you all the options that you're ever gonna get and you're gonna pick Jazz it anyway because it's the best title.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And we're gonna let Karen and Georgia from 2017 and Elvis and Mimi. Mimi. Say our.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Me say our goodbyes. I think I can get Mimi to meow again.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Thanks for listening.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, thank you so much for listening. You guys are the best.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We appreciate you, your support and having fun with us and we want you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

To stay sexy and don't get murdered.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Mimi. Mimi. Say it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Want a cookie? Not you. Look at Mimi. She won't do it. Come on. Yes, I talked over.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She'll do it again.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We could cut all this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There she is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, Elvis. You want a cookie? Yeah. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's how it's done.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Bye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Andrea Gunning]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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