Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 69: Never A Mannequin

Summary

My Favorite Murder: “Rewind with Karen & Georgia – 69: Never A Mannequin” (November 5, 2025)

Episode Theme and Purpose

In this “Rewind” episode, Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark revisit their legendary My Favorite Murder episode 69, “Never a Mannequin.” They recap memorable stories, reflect on their 2017 tour era, and provide new commentary, updates, and personal insights on the true crime cases discussed. The episode also explores how their approaches and perspectives have evolved over time, touching on everything from serial killers and institutional failures to the ongoing fight for justice in cold cases.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Nostalgic Tour Reflections and Listener Community

• Reminiscing First Tour: Karen and Georgia warmly recall their early tour experiences in Washington DC, Baltimore, and Philly, highlighting personal fan interactions, gifts, and the unexpected thrill of meeting real “crime fighters.”
  • Memorable moment: Meeting forensic analysts, criminal defense attorneys, and notably, two “hot FBI agents” at a live show in Baltimore, who flashed their badges in a way straight out of a TV drama.

    “They were two hot FBI agents with big smiles on their faces, doing a bit for us.” —Karen (05:02)

• Fan Engagement: The tour fostered connections with listeners who work in crime and law, and the duo jokes about professional envy and feeling starstruck.
• Audience Gratitude: Karen and Georgia express “so, so much” thanks for their enthusiastic audience support, swag, and shared stories.
• Inside Jokes Revisited: The “never a mannequin” trope (when a body is mistaken for a mannequin) resurfaces as a classic warning in their murder storytelling.

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Revisiting Updates: Podcast & Pop Culture

• Zac Efron as Ted Bundy (10:17):
  • Discussion of the 2017 casting news, initial skepticism, and eventual approval of Efron’s transformation:

    “If he can act it, man, it'll be legit.” —Georgia (11:17) “He doesn’t get enough credit for what a good actor he is … He just has to beef down because he’s too cut right now.” —Karen (12:33)

  • 2025 reflection: Both agree “Extremely Wicked, Shockingly Evil and Vile” proved Efron’s skill, and that true crime continues to intersect with pop culture.
• Podcast Recommendations:
  • Someone Knows Something: Praised for empathy, depth, and host David Ridgen’s evolving impact—from 2 to 9 seasons and spin-offs.
  • Mysteries Abound and Unexplained: Commended for soothing narration, wide-ranging mysteries, and podcasting “comfort food.”

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Case Rewinds and Notable True Crime Stories

1. Keith Warren (Silver Spring, Maryland, 1986)

• Summary (37:13–62:24):
  • 19-year-old Keith Warren was found hanged from a tree in a wooded area.
  • Shocking police missteps: Premature suicide ruling, no autopsy, immediate embalming (before family notification), crime scene contamination, and destruction of evidence (including the hanging tree).
  • Family suspicions escalate after anonymous photos of the scene highlight ripped clothing, shoe discrepancies, and lack of decomposition.
  • Theories: Accidental overdose staged as suicide, police cover-up, possible hate crime, or murder related to police informant activity.
  • Related deaths: Mark Finley (potential witness), killed in a suspicious “bicycle accident.”
  • Ongoing fight for justice by Keith’s mother, Mary, and later his sister, Sherry.
  • Systemic racial bias and the historical trauma of lynching are discussed.
  • The case remained closed but finally, in 2024, Maryland’s Death Reclassification Act offers hope of reopening.
• Notable Quote:

  “It's the fact that they saw a young Black man hanging from a tree and immediately [said] suicide … It reminded me of the old South and hangings—and not that old.” —Georgia (47:01)

• Update (60:32):
  • The death certificate was changed to “undetermined.”
  • HBO Max docuseries Uprooted covers Sherry’s ongoing quest.
  • 2025 parallel: Demartraveon “Trey” Reed found hanged at Delta State University, echoing Warren’s case; questions of police inaction and civil rights advocacy are front and center.

2. Riverside County Serial Killer (Bill Suff)

• Summary (66:22–110:43):
  • A terrifying series of murders (1986–1992) targeting women (mostly known sex workers) around Riverside and Lake Elsinore, CA.
  • Victims found mutilated, often posed, with escalating signs of degradation (e.g., a lightbulb, a toilet plunger as post-mortem signatures).
  • Investigators, including lead detective Bob Creed, are praised for treating victims as people first, not just “prostitutes.”
  • Tire tracks, red nylon fibers, and tan cat hairs eventually lead police to Bill Suff—a county employee who delivered furniture to the very task force hunting him.
  • Suff evaded capture for years by monitoring police methods and switching tires, but was ultimately convicted after critical witness testimony and forensic links.

  “He was a clerk at the supply company that supplies desks and chairs for the Riverside Police Department … He would come and deliver it straight into the room where they were investigating his serial murders.” —Karen (102:19)

  • Suff, a child killer paroled from Texas, is convicted on 12 counts and sentenced to death; more murders are suspected.
• Notable Quotes:

  “Never a mannequin, you guys, never a fucking mannequin.” —Karen (96:32) “All the good cops become detectives.” —Karen (105:36)

• Update (110:06):
  • Clarification: Suff’s first child victim was 2 months old, not 2 years.
  • In 2024, DNA linked Suff to an additional 1986 murder.
  • He remains on death row at age 75.

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Podcasting Style & Self-Reflection

• Classic Banter: The hosts poke fun at their own unpolished methods compared to “serious” investigative series, with exchanges on coin-flipping confusion, candy debates, and “slop in a charming wrapper.”

  “We, like, recommend these investigative, like, fucking, like, next level pieces of journalism podcasts. And then we’re like, flip a coin to flip a coin, Stephen, did we … who went first?” —Georgia (27:18)

• Personal Allusions: Georgia speaks candidly about risky situations from her youth, connecting these to common dangers women face and why “trust your gut” remains vital advice.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Hot FBI Agents:

  “Two hot FBI agents with big smiles on their faces, doing a bit for us.” —Karen (05:02) “He flips his ID open—his finger was over his own face. Which is like a trick people use when they’re trying to trick you.” —Karen (05:35)

• Podcast Empathy:

  “What I love about this episode … is it's not a fucking perfect blonde cheerleader ... But she still deserves…” —Georgia (22:25)

• Self-Deprecation:

  “It's so enjoyable. Slop in a charming wrapper.” —Georgia (27:33)

• Social Commentary:

  “There's a lot of Black creators on TikTok ... just getting on and saying Black men do not go to trees.” —Karen (62:24)

• Never A Mannequin:

  “Never a mannequin, you guys, never a fucking mannequin.” —Karen (96:32)

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Section Timestamps

• [01:50] – Introduction & Recap Purpose
• [02:21–17:07] – Tour Stories & Law Enforcement Fans
• [10:00–15:46] – Pop Culture: Bundy, Zac Efron, HBO documentaries
• [17:07–20:37] – Personal/family murder connections
• [22:55–24:46] – Podcast Recommendations
• [37:13–62:24] – Keith Warren's case (Primary discussion, modern update)
• [66:22–110:43] – Riverside Serial Killer (Primary discussion, modern update)
• [110:06–110:43] – Updates & Corrections
• [110:55–114:55] – Closing, “Good Thing of the Week” revisited, Farewell

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Summary Takeaways

• Progress & Frustration: Many cases from the 1980s–1990s are still struggling for resolution; procedural failings and societal biases have lasting consequences.
• Empathy & Advocacy: Humanizing victims (especially sex workers, POC, and marginalized groups) is vital in crime reporting and justice efforts.
• Societal Reflection: MFM’s blend of humor and honesty encourages awareness of personal safety, skepticism toward authority, and the need to question old narratives.
• Listener Community: The podcast continues to foster a community of “murderinos”—empowered, vigilant, and connected by a shared passion for true crime, justice, and dark humor.

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Further Listening/Viewing

• Uprooted (HBO Max) – Keith Warren docuseries
• Someone Knows Something – David Ridgen (seasons 1–9, The Next Call)
• Extremely Wicked, Shockingly Evil and Vile (2019) – Zac Efron as Ted Bundy
• Real Detective – “Riverside County Serial Killer” feature
• Casefile episode #43 (“Keith Warren”)

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Stay sexy, don’t get murdered.

Transcript

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is exactly right. This podcast is sponsored by PayPal.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

For orders over. You can save up to $25. Ends December 31st. See app for details. Goodbye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No one brings out your inner monster like a bad neighbor.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Claire Danes and Matthew Rhys find that out for themselves in the Beast in.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Me, a new eight episode drama from the team that brought you Homeland.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Danes plays Aggie Wiggs, a grieving writer. Rhys plays Nile Jarvis, her new neighbor and possible murderer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But who's the monster and who's the bad neighbor? That's another story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's a game of cat and mouse that sets them on a collision course with fatal consequences.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The Beast in me on Netflix, November 13th.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You will not want to miss this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye, my savior.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hello and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Every Wednesday we recap our old episodes with all new commentary, updates and insights. And you are welcome.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're recapping episode 69, you pervert, which we named never a mannequin Legendary classic.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just iconic.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Are you allowed to call your own titles iconic? This episode came out May 18, 2017.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's listen to the intro of episode 69.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hello and welcome to My Favorite Murder. That's Karen, that's Georgia.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hi. I'm in my element right now. I'm double fisting petting cats and it's my dream.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's how Georgia parties.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. We just got back from our the last weekend of our first tour.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. Thank you, Washington, dc. Thank you Baltimore. Thank you, Philly. Dude, Glenside, Pennsylvania. We had the best weekend. We met so many great people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So, so many incredible People, they sent.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Us home with so many lovely presents.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. My suitcase was crammed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And we just gave Stephen many and many of the presents that you gave us to give him after we picked.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What we wanted out of his gifts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's lots of stuff that we didn't tell him about that we're just keeping.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He'll never know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Little mustache things we get to have. But we did want to mention it was very exciting because this time it felt like. And maybe it was the area that we were in.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah, Washington. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We met. We met a forensic analyst. We met a criminal defense attorney who.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Listened to the show not just on the street.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. Yes. They came to the show. They bought VIP tickets. They had a high. Hi, how are you? Take a picture with us. And it was very exciting to be meeting actual people. What was that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know. My microphone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God. George's microphone's leaving. They were people who are in the business of stopping crime who listened to this podcast, which we were very, very honored by. And thank you all what you do and for listening. But the most exciting part, I'll talk slowly so that while Stephen fits Georgia's microphone, she can still participate.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You can tell all the story without me, Stephen, hurry. Thank you. He did it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow, that was fast. The most exciting for. Well, I'll say for me. I think for you too. Oh, I started crying when we were in Baltimore. The Rams Head. Thank you, everybody. At the Rams Head. That was a really cool rock and roll venue. It was so hilarious.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, you could smell the stunning sticky beer from decades past.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, the Pixies were playing the night out, which we were freaking out about. We kept saying we were trying to. We wanted to leave something for Kim Deal somewhere in the dressing room. But anyway, these two guys walk up in the meet and greet and flip out an id, Their federal id. And it turned out two FBI agents were at the show.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And he knew to flip his ID open cause we'd lose our shit. So he walks towards us, like in the copiest cop manner.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think he was like 6 foot 6. Listen, both of them were.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Both of them were incredibly handsome.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They were two hot FBI agents with big smiles on their faces, doing a bit for us.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And they looked like FBI agents, young ones that. But were cool.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not that. You know what I mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Well, no, they were great. And they were super funny because they immediately were doing a bit about the girl that did a hometown. And Georgia. This was my favorite part is I was immediately just like. I had no Idea what to say. And I was completely starstruck where I'm like, I looked at this guy's id.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But Georgia, this is fake.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yells across me and goes, move your finger. Your finger's covering your face. And it was. It was just the way he flipped open his like wallet looking id. FBI agent id. His finger was over his own face. Which is like a trick people use when they're trying to trick you into, like getting into your car.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally. I was always.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He started laughing because she moved his finger. And of course it was him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did not believe him. And I was like, that's a fucking age old. Everyone knows that trick.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then it turns out it was not a trick. They were two real deal FBI agents who worked for.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They worked for the anti terrorism squad. I don't know if that's a thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I doubt it's a squad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Gang. Right, the anti terrorism gang. And then the reason the other guy was with him was because the first guy who covered his face was supposed to go with his girlfriend or fiance. She got deployed to Afghanistan.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think she was the forensic pathologist, maybe.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, she definitely worked in the biz as well. But she was also in the military because she got deployed to. Was it Afghanistan?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally Afghanistan.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And we were just like, you're. The three of you are rock stars.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're living a life very different from ours.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And also we talk about what you do all the time as if we're experts. I mean, now you're here as. As like audience members. Yeah, but you're actually the experts. It was the coolest experience.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I asked so many of the experts who were like, I do this. I asked most of them, are you mad at us?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And it turns out none of them are mad at us.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, and then the cop. No, wait, is that Austin, the cop with the eyeball killer?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah, it was.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was at Moon Tower, right? It was Moon Tower.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I think it was D.C. with the pregnant chick.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, that was.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Are you sure?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think it was D.C. because the cop. They were having a cop convention, remember?

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're exactly right. And that's why he was there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So there was the guy with the eyeball killer that we did a couple. Few long time ago. Yeah, I don't know how many episodes we've recorded. And like, this is number 10, right. He wanted to meet us. He like tweeted that he was in town for a cop convention. And I was like, oh, God. Are you mad at us because I or mad at me because I have no Idea what I said about you in the episode. But his daughter in law came in pregnant and was like, no, he thinks you're great. Here's a signed copy of his book.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But I'm sorry, all of that is right, except it wasn't the pregnant girl that was separate. There were two pregnant girls. There were three girls. The Eyeball Killer's. Wasn't it his stepdaughter?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, something like that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And they were. It was her and her two friends.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. I mean, it doesn't matter. Whatever.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It doesn't matter at all. Except for that we have these great experiences with people for 45 seconds and then another experience happens right after. It's very hard to keep them all.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Track, but we like them all.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The bummer was he was there and he waiting outside, but we had no ability. Like it was the end and we didn't have the ability to get him inside.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I feel like someday soon we're gonna post the Philly episode. It was the last episode and it was sweet as fuck. I thought some girl that I should be able to name recorded the stay sexy, don't get murder part that the crowd yells with us. And I put it on Instagram and it's. It's just so sweet. It's like sweet as in like sweet. It's just like this great moment.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, cool.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love when we do that at the end. It's so much fun.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's very fun. And all three shows were great. And all three audiences were like, one was better than the next. They were just like. They were all so great and fun and excited and thank you all so, so much for being there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And yes, stop asking us on Twitter. We're going to come to your town. Yeah, we will. Yeah. There's a planned fall tour.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, we just want to keep doing it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Listen, so saying the word Australia and that's all I'm saying.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. And say the word New Zealand because that's also in there too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And New Zealand. And yes, we're coming to your California. No, your state.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're coming to your personal California. Anyways, it's what your California is. Like. This is my California. But maybe Texas is your California, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Like who? What's your California?

[Karen Kilgariff]

What's your California? We also thank you for sharing the news that Ian Brady is dead. That was your murder.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's the Moore's murder. Yeah. I thought he was dead. Who cares? He's never gonna get out. I mean, whatever. He died, okay?

[Karen Kilgariff]

He died.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, it's great because He's a murderer and he deserves to be dead.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But, okay, now he is. But the thing a lot of people were very excited about is the very recent casting of Zac Efron to play the part of Ted Bundy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They were excited, but there were some. Weren't some. You know, you guys seem to want to know what our opinion was because you had said. Who was the guy that you said should play him? Nevermind.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But no recollection. Even though I remember us talking about it. Okay, I'll be able to remember it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Steven.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Steven's like, I don't listen to this. What do you think of it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I fucking dig it. At first I was like, huh? But then I remembered, you know, he does these goofy movies, but he's also done some cool shit, and he's a good actor, seems like a cool dude. And then someone put a photo side by side of, like, a young Ted Bundy and, like, a photo that kind of matched of Zac Efron, and it was just exactly what it was supposed to be. Yeah. So if he can. If he can act it, man, it'll be legit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I tell you now, he can act it. Because I may have been keeping this to myself up until this point, although I can't imagine why. Because I. I love the movie 17 again. Yes. He was my lover. The movie 17 again, I believe it's called, with him and Tom Lennon, where he plays his own father. He is so brilliant in it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That must be the one I was thinking of.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. It's such good acting. It's a Disney movie and it's a body switch. You know, I'm young again. It's basically Zac Efron doing an impression of Matthew Perry.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it is. So my sister made me watch it for the first time. She's like, you have to watch it. You'll like it. And I have to trust her when she says that because she's always right. And it's just masterful acting by him. He doesn't get enough credit for what a good actor he is, and he tries to do interesting stuff. My only thing was April texted me, my friend April Richardson of Go Bayside podcast fame. She texted me and was like, I know I'm the one millionth person to tell you this, but did you know Zac Efron? And she's like, and what do you think? And I said, you're the millionth person that's asked. But I'm. You're the first person I'm answering. And I said, I'm. I believe in him 1000%. He just has to beef down because he's too cut right now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it's like. It's that, like, 70s cut, which is like, super skinny but also muscular. But there's no, like, sinewy. Sinewy. That's it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, he definitely has to do that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But he's like a bike rider as opposed to a weightlifter.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm just. Yeah, I'm just excited to see it. I mean, there's not really a good one at all.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's the Mark Harmon one, which is fine, but it's like a made for TV movie.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So it's not like, gruesome and realistic.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. It's not scholastic.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's not scholastic. It's not realistic. It's not bombastic. It's none of those things.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think it'll be good also, because I think people are just like, let's ride this fucking true crime wave as hard as we can. People are seeing that there's so much interest. They've just combined two great things, which is like, what do girls like? True crime and Zac Efron.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's do this thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Speaking of. Listen, next week we're gonna talk about the Dee Dee Blanchard and Gypsy Rose documentary that's on hbo. So go watch it. And then we're gonna watch it and talk about it. But it's definitely something we want to chat with you about.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. I can't wait to see it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's called Mommy Dearest and Dead.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So go to hbo. It's on hbo.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think so.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm pretty sure it is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Pretty sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Go watch that. Yeah, go watch yourself.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Bunch of people have watched it and asked us about it. Georgia did her homework. I did not.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So I didn't want to out you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did you hear me say that we're gonna watch it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, it was. That's called teamwork. And I appreciate it, but Karen didn't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do it, and I did it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can you imagine?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God, what a cunt I would be.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There was something. Was there something in there that really wanted to do that, though? Because.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. I was like, how do I get around saying this?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, that was masterful.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I appreciate it. Well, I. Yeah, I pretend that I hadn't either. Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You took that hit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Stephen, did you watch it? Not yet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, Steven.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, so get on it. It is on hbo, though.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Two against one. Mimi, Elvis.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's always two against one in this setup. On that particular story, no information is enough. So the Fact that someone has put together an actual documentary and has her gypsy today talking.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God, there's an inter. A prison interview. And the whole time I was just like, do I believe her? You cannot tell. And then you're like, is she crying tears or is she just sounding like she. And there's so much shit. And then I didn't know the background of the mom, so that was really fucking interesting. That's in there as well.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I can't wait. I know it's. I very much liked it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And the exciting part is, which a bunch of people told us and we discovered the director. I don't have her name handy, is a murderino who somebody posted a thing that said, look, when this famous documentary filmmaker just shows up on our Facebook.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Page, like, commenting on it, like, thanks, I'm glad you guys liked it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So cool.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So cool. So we'll tell you guys who it is next week. We'll write it down.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We'll have a whole prepared thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We'll talk.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Imagine.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We'll chat. Oh, I wanted to say so in the vein of. We love it when just suddenly people come out of the woodwork that you would never know. Have a mur. And then they tell you about it. Like, your uncle did that, right? Like, oh, I caught the fucking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah. My cousin Marty is the one that lifted the Richard Ramirez's fingerprints at the last breaking and entering in San Francisco where they figured out who the Night Stalker was.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then you were like, why didn't you tell me? And he's like, why would I tell you that ever? So I have a similar one, my cousin Nancy, who's like, pretty significantly older than me, you know, I think in. I don't know. And she's just like a normal, really lovely, normal person and married with kids. She teaches old people how to use the Internet. Like, she's just. She's just a really lovely woman.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So she then, you know, she's very patient.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It does, doesn't it? She emailed me and says, hi, Georgia, I listened to one of your. My favorite murder podcasts today. One of the questions was something about someone you knew knew a murderer. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, back in the late 80s, early 90s, I worked at the Peterson Publishing house in West Hollywood. One of the guys in the photo lab killed one of the models on a shoot. I knew him when I worked there, but the murder was years after I left the company. But I was an editorial assistant of one of the car magazines, and he'd come by and hand me the photos. He never smiled, but looked me directly in the eye. It was creepy. And then I knew anyway. And I had another relative who knows a murderer, loved Nancy. And then I was like, I think this is the one I know, which is such an interesting story. It's Charles Rathbun.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Who killed Linda Sobeck in the fucking desert. Right. And he said, oh, I hit her with my car on accident when I was showing her some cool moves. And I buried her body. Cause I got scared. And it's like, no, you fucking didn't. No. And then, like, they found another one of his bodies close by that as well.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Was it in the desert? Was it in Angeles National Forest?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, but I think it was like a open thing. I don't know, open plane type of thing. Right, right, right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was just far away. Like, he would basically get them to come and go on quote, unquote, shoots.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And maybe that was just in my imagin, pictured it as a desert. So. Yeah, that's what it looks like. It doesn't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was. What we know is it was far away because I don't know my. I'm pretty sure, though, that that was a city confidential for Los Angeles. About the death of Linda Sobeck.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. And I told her, oops, I messaged her back and was like, I've fucking gone into a rural. Rural area with a guy who wanted to take photos of me when I was younger and didn't get murdered. And so that murder is just. I know what it's like to suddenly be like, oh, fuck, this was a mistake, and nobody knows I'm here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Yeah. So scary.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I don't know this. I thought I kind of knew this person. I don't know him at all.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Well, when you're young, you think you're friends with everybody.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's just like, oh, yeah, my buddy that's a photographer or whatever, where it's like, where's he from? Does he have any siblings? How much do you know this person?

[Georgia Hardstark]

And you're easily charmed. You don't bring anyone with you. Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You do it by their dictate of, like, this is how we're gonna do it. This is where we're gonna go.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because you don't know to say, fuck no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, also, you're so complimented by the fact that someone's like, I think that you are a model.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. Which I totally. I admit to that completely.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Of course.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Why wouldn't you? Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's a big. That's a Big part of all of that. And then the shame of like, oh, how dare you think that. I mean, it's the perfect play.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They have you coming and going.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Listen, don't do it, you guys. Unless you're at a well populated place and you meet them there. Don't get in the car with them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right, Right. Yes. And there's also. There was a guy that was doing this, and he was actually going up to women at the Century City Mall with that one. And he was saying he was a casting director for the new James Bond movie. Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And they had it on. On surveillance. Right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

They have him on surveillance. He would go to houses that were being. He would get shown the house by a real estate agent. So he knew it was an emp. Then he would have the women meet them at that house and kill them there. And that's how he got caught. It's so crazy. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's amazing. Can I quickly do a podcast recommendation?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Of course.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I've said, I've talked about this podcast in its first season because it was excellent. And then I just listened to the second season in a fucking minute. Because it was so good. It's. Someone knows something, which I think they're calling SKS now because no one knew anything last season.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is that the Canadian one?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, with the guy with the Canadian.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Love him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So he. The second season is fucking great. It's really great storytelling. He has so much empathy, which is, you know, hard to find sometimes in these stories. His name's. His name is David Riggin. Riggin. And he's, like, helped solve murders in the past. He's a documentary film. Like, it's. It's fucking heartbreaking. It's really well done. I highly recommend it. He has the most charming Canadian accent.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's so charming. And that first season, even though there were no hard answers, it still is such a great season. It's so good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's also heartbreaking, but it's also. It never really was solved. So it's still so interesting because you don't know if someone knows something or not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. And it also shows what these detectives are up against when these homicides come in. It's like. Because, you know, I do have a lot of guilt about how much shit we talk about detective work or police work, where it's such armchair quarterbacking. And we talk about that a lot. But going through it that way, especially that one was from the 70s, that first season murder of that little boy. And it's just like they're going on nothing they have strands, they have basic bits of information.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And we don't think about the fact that they don't have time. It's not like they have the next three months to look into this case. They have, you know, a bunch of other cases going as well and more adding up, and they don't have the time to unfortunately give to it by no fault of their own.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know, the fact that they haven't hired enough detectives, they don't have the money to. At the department.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So it turns into all that red tape stuff.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's such a. It's such an interesting. Like the fact that politics affect so many of these murder cases and how much time and attention they get, which then folds in the whole thing of when sex workers are involved and they get dismissed. Or when.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or did she disappear and did she just run away? Maybe she just ran away.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that old kind of 70s. Like, I don't want to do the paperwork. She's a runaway. The sex working. And then also just the. Like, when it's a white, blonde teenage cheerleader that's in high school, all of the political power goes behind it, as opposed to anybody of color. A person that's a sex worker person that was a drug addict.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, what I love about this episode or this season of Someone Know Something is it's not a fucking perfect blonde cheerleader. She had been into drugs. She was an exotic dancer. You know, she was. Had a temper. She wasn't. But she still deserves to. She still deserves to. You know, her mother is like the most heartbreaking character you've ever heard. Odette, which. I love that name, but I gotta listen to that. Yeah. But yeah, it's not until. And then there's the thing too, of like, at the time of the murder, friends and family might not want to talk. You know, they know things. They're scared. But he's looking into it like 20 years later, and he's such a empathetic guy and he's just trying to solve it. He's not trying to, you know, fuck with anyone. And so they talk to him and I mean, he's fucking great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, he's so good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So watch Someone Know something. Second season and first.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Anyways, it's podcast, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Yeah. Hi. Hi. How are you? I'm great. How are you?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm really good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is there anything else we wanted to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I guess my only the one. And I can't remember if I've said this already, but I've gotten on your recommendation so into the now I Can't remember the name of it. Which one?

[Georgia Hardstark]

What's it about?

[Karen Kilgariff]

The guy, the Australian guy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, Crime, mysterious wonders. Oh, honey. Yes. Mysteries abound.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Mysteries abound.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It is just the most beautiful.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It is so beautifully presented.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He.

[Karen Kilgariff]

At the top of every story, he cites his sources. That's the first thing I notice where I'm like, ah, yes, that's what we're doing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But for someone who's just reading articles about mysteries throughout the Internet, it's so good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's not his stories. He's doing no research.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's. Well, he's reading articles. But it's performative. And it's also he gets why certain things are interesting. I don't know, it's just I've listened to now probably 20 of them. Cause we've been doing so much traveling and it's just the perfect podcast and.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It goes all over the place. Like, seven Interesting Facts about urine. Or like, you know, why the like, mysteries about the moon, which is my favorite fucking one. It's like these things I never knew about. But then also, he's the most droney, like a most comforting voice. So I fall asleep to it every fucking night.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I thought, yeah, I was falling asleep on the plane.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But then there's this one thing he does where, like, he'll tell the story and then have music in between the next ones. And for some reason, that music is super loud.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So I keep waking up when the story's done. It's scary, but I love it. Mysteries abound. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Mysteries abound. So good. Okay, so now we do ours.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do we go first based on our tour or do we go first? We did Sorry Q and A last time, but then we did the live show after. No, wait, we did the live show before Q and A. Steven.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is this like a reset or do we go from the tour?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Should we flip a coin?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, flip the coin. The FBI coin. Yeah, they gave us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So wait, what side do you want? The FBI guys gave us these commemorative coins that are so cool looking.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, they even brought us presents. Hot FBI agents brought us presents.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Tens. That was like the best time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I rarely get, like, dumbstruck where I'm like, can't figure out one good thing to say. And I just kept laughing and going, really? Really?

[Georgia Hardstark]

And like, yeah, I almost started crying, which I don't usually do. And then every, like the next 10 people who we met, I was like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Those guys were the agents? Yeah, we just were like, so what? All Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So are you pick. Pick gold or blue? That's blue. That's gold. This says Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Counter Counter Terror Terrorism Division and gang. It says. No, it doesn't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The counterterrorism gang.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, you do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The one in the middle is blue. You know what I'm saying?

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that one's gold.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So, Karen, you call it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'll be blue.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can we flip a coin to see who calls it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'll be blue, you be gold.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, Gold. Wait, you blue, I'm gold.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, wait, but we didn't say what we're flipping to go first or last.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, you get it? Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you. Oh, so you get.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you like going first or do you like going last?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I. I don't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I guess it depends on the story.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it does.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do we flip to. Whoever gets it gets to choose. What? Who gets to choose? Elvis is suddenly really interested in what's happening.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Georgia won that. So do you wanna just pick what you wanna do?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I like going first.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is yours a real big bummer?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean. Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So is mine. Oh, fuck it. I mean, it's a murder. It's like. No, mine's super light hearted.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, there's nothing. It's not like an old one or whatever, but it's a good one. Okay, so you just do what you want.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. Mine's pretty short.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And what?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I just love it. Like, we can't even do a coin flip correctly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, we're talking amazing. We, like, recommend these investigative, like, fucking, like, next level pieces of journalism podcasts. And then we're like, flip a coin to flip a coin, Stephen. Did we. Who went first?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's just slop.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so enjoyable. Slop in a charming rapper.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, for sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know what I mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, let's hope.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, what kind of candy is really gross? And then you're like, oh, it looks so good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Remember Rocky Road? Which was dark chocolate covered marshmallows and like, like some weird nut, Maybe a walnut chocolate and.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, fuck, those were good. Do they not have them anymore?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, I was. I was naming it as a bad one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I guess there's no candy that's bad. Really?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I guess you're right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's talk about candy for a half an hour.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I actually, when we were leaving the airport. I fucking will talk about candy. Skippers. When I was leaving the airport, it was in that place where we had traveled so much. I was so tired. I was so tired. When we got back on Monday. And I was supposed to do a show that night and fucking bailed on it because I was like, by the time the show was gonna start, it would have been two my time. And I had been traveling all week. I was like, what was that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

And you were going to do another podcast on the way home, weren't you?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I did. We did my other podcast. Do you need a ride? I recorded one on the way home, honey. Then I got home. When I laid down, all of my limbs turned to cement. But when I was leaving the airport, I walked by a See's candy cart, and I was like, I can have See's candy. I got this voice in my head that was like, it was my birthday. I don't even know what I was thinking. But I walked up and as I walked around the cart, I was just like, so what, you're going to take a pound of candy home and eat it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't they have the singles?

[Karen Kilgariff]

They have smaller boxes. But I got around. I walked around the whole thing, and then I met a lady on the other side and I said, there were little tiny boxes of things. And I go, do you have tiny boxes of nuts and chews? And she was like, oh, no, only one pound. And I was like, okay, bye. I walked away before anything else happened.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Why don't they give samples in there like they do at regular SEAS candies?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because it's like a weird kiosk and they don't, you know, next time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Their lollipops are super satisfying.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, those are good, except for there's too many flavors I don't like of the lollipops.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is there a butterscotch? I think I like that one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or coffee?

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's coffee, there's butterscotch.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, listen, when you guys come to California, that's our See's candy you just bring it to. Whenever I see one, I'm like, am I going anywhere soon that I need to bring a box of sea candy?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know. You know, that's our Christmas thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're like, that's our Hanukkah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's all we do is like, you're gonna go somewhere, you grab one of those two pound boxes of nuts and chews, and that's like the gift.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I like the soft centers, though.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you? Yeah, this is perfect with our, like, dark meat, white meat turkey thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We could share a chicken and a.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Box of chocolates and everybody's gonna be satisfied.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And what was I gonna say? Yeah, we do that too. Just like a table and there's Jewish cookies and sees boxes of seed candy and everyone just sits around, talks and eats too much. And it's the best. So good. Shout out to rugala. It's the best. Is it word that I just shouted out a cookie.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I love it. Fuck. Shout out to arugula. Just plain rugula.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Arugula.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Arugula's the lettuce.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah. I'm not randomly shouting out a lettuce. It wasn't that random. It was Jewish cookies. Rugula.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that's the one that you got at Michael's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The. The.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The diner we went to after the show, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, that was. That was baklava. Get it straight. I don't care. Where are we?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Shout out. I'm not sure. Do you want to start?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sure. All right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Shout out. Mary C. You really made some good candies, Mary.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I love her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, the little old lady with the glasses and the shawl.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is that made up? I just recently found out that. What's the cookie woman. No, wait, that's not right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Lorna Doone.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, one of those people are made up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, probably Betty Crocker.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My friend's reading a documentary on her. Is that a thing you can read? She told me that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Me ways just created by a company.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Which I think is not fair.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It is pretty fucked up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. And we're back.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can you imagine so innocently talking about our tour weekend where we drove. We flew into one city, drove to the next city, drove to the next city and then flew home.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nasty.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Who were we? Oh, we were young.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We were. We were young and naive and we're like, oh, this is what touring is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Three cities a weekend.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, not anymore. We can't do that anymore, you guys.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not with our old bones.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, it's a young ladies game and we're.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, and that's the live show where the FBI guys. We've talked about those FBI guys quite a bit over the years.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That was pretty epic. I think since then we've definitely met who are from that branch of government.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Secret government types.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. My niece in law. So Vince's sister's daughter works for the FBI, which I can't talk about, but she's told me a few things.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it sounds pretty epic. She's having a lot of fun.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What a cool thing to work to do as a young woman. Yeah, that's very cool.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, that's very cool. And so since then also, Zac Efron had his star turn as Ted Bundy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, everybody loved the job he did on that. I mean, maybe they didn't like the thing overall, but it was like. I feel like everybody was impressed by what he brought to the table.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And we're talking about the movie Extremely Wicked, Shockingly Evil and Vile, which came out in 2019. And, yeah, he did a great job.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, he's a great actor.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What, is he gonna not do a good job? He's Zac fucking Efron.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's Zac Efron. He's been nailing it since he was 11. Like, come on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, and then. It's so funny. So since then, I was talking about season two of Someone Knows Something, and they have now put out nine seasons.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

As of 2025. And the host, David Ridgen, who we adore, also launched a new related series called the Next Call, which continues the style of investigating cold cases and bringing in family eyewitnesses and suspects. He's so good at interviews.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, that sounds like exactly your kind of podcast.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It does. I'm gonna go download now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know what's really funny is that Mysteries Abound is a podcast you can still listen to. There's over 300 episodes. But also he hosts a podcast called Unexplained that when we went back on the road and, you know, the first time I, like, tuned out on an airplane, that's what was in my ears.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I forgot about that altogether.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It, like, makes you go to sleep, but it's also compelling. And it's like, then you learn a little something.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love it. I love it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And we love Richard McLean Smith.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We sure do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's a great podcaster. Love his work and a great friend. We met him when we were in Melbourne or Sydney.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. I forgot. And we were like, let me hear you talk. Talk, please.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was hilarious. And he was so bewildered. He was just like, what the fuck is this? Like, he. He was just this lovely man. Got into podcasting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, like, oh, I thought it would be interesting. And then he said, this some One of our shows with murder, you know, screaming at the top of their lungs.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, should we get into some stories?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's get in. So let's get into Georgia's story about Keith Warren. This podcast is sponsored by PayPal.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

I've seen it and I will vouch for it. It was freaking adorable. And it fits so well with your house. Yes. So if you're in the market for a beautiful new sofa, dining table or bed, head over to article.com.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye. Hey, speaking of fucked up. Yeah, this one's a bummer. Okay, so on July 30, 1986. We're in 1986.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I can see the outfit I'm wearing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're in an affluent community of Silver Spring, which is located in Maryland, and 19 year old Keith Waddell Warren was found hanging from a tree two days after he was reported missing by his mother. Keith, who's an African American, had been accepted into North Carolina Central University and was set to go in the fall. But he was currently home for the summer making money and saving it up to go away. Handsome, bright. Everyone said he was a good kid, you know, good in school. He did have some depression issues, but in his recent past, his parents had divorced, but he had a bright future. So on. So July 30, 1986, a woman walking her dog. Dog found Keith in a wooded area near his family's home. His body was hanging from a small tree by his neck and the tree was bent double with his weight. The cord was elaborately hung and anchored around the base of the tree. And it was 25ft then to a small sapling. So it was like this elaborate kind of hanging mechanism. And then I encircled the saplings, trunk arched through a fork. The first paramedic who arrived on the scene said that he immediately knew it was a staged hanging and so he didn't touch the body at all. He was waiting for the police to arrive.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But the officer and detective who arrived at the scene released that paramedic. The officer stated that this was interfering with his lunch break and they didn't cordon off the area. And the scene was trampled. And I of course looked up his name and warning immediately crime scene photos come up. Oh, but you can see in the background of one of them just some fucking shirtless dude hanging out, staring at the body. So they hadn't even taken it down yet. And there was a guy, you know, maybe not even 10ft, just hanging out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Whoa. Yeah, okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's like some hippie dude.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So this was before they understood how was it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't think so.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's just. It was just.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I think when we read about a lot of these fucked up crimes that happens, but I don't think that that was a normal procedure. I can't imagine. Yeah, let us Know cops from the 86? Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

When did they. When did they really know that you had to lock down a crime scene and no one got to come look, be near it? Like a whole. Like, what do they call that? Establish a perimeter.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, I want to know as well, when did they start wearing gloves and stop smoking at the crime scene? Cops. You know what I mean? Like, it had to be in. Somewhere in the 90s, because even O.J. simpson's crime scene was handled without gloves, which they definitely should have known by then.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. Anyways.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow. Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It gets worse.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Despite the obvious discrepancies, authorities didn't see anything wrong with the scene. And. And after a brief visual inspection, the county department medical examiner determined that Keith Warren had committed suicide. No autopsy was ordered. The body was sent directly to a funeral home. The detective chose it, and this was all that happened. Oh, and his body was embalmed. All before his mother was even aware of his death.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, that's simply not procedure. Nope, it can't be.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, well, back then, you didn't need to perform an autopsy on a suicide, but it was definitely suspicious. The embalming, that kind of thing is the parent's decision. Yes. And also, he wasn't taken to a morgue. He was taken to a funeral home. I think the funeral director didn't really get any information about what was going on, so he just thought he was supposed to embalm. The body.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is Silver Spring. Do you know a smaller place? Like, could they use that excuse that this was, like, small town? They're not used to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I. From what I can tell. I don't know if it was. If it was just the community or what, but it was like 70,000 people there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not huge.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. Okay. But it was like a. It was like 40 minutes from Philly. It was like, not far from D.C. so it's not rural. It's rural. How do you say that? I can never.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're saying it right. It's just a weird word.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just stupid. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So. So by the six hours after he had been found, his mother was finally told about it, and by then he had been embalmed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, that's unacceptable.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When the family asked for his clothing that he'd been wearing at the time, the funeral home informed them that most of it had been destroyed because of the decay of the body had ruined them. So they just got rid of the decayed body clothes. Okay. They were only given his jacket and a pair of brown boots. And from. I can say from those crime scene photos that I, of course, looked at all of them and almost started crying because I have to look at them because I'm a fucking weirdo. He wasn't decayed at all. He wasn't decaying. He was found two days after he went missing. Don't know how long he was up there, but he looks like he had gotten there recently. Like, there is nothing about him that looks like what you would expect from a hanging, which is a lot of. Of really grotesque things happen to you. Right. There was no indication that he was decayed. Anyways, later, when his mom attempted to visit the tree to pray there because she was so fucking heartbroken, she got there and realized the tree had been cut down.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Taken into evidence by the police, which his mother was like, if this is a suicide and the case was closed, which it was, why are you taking evidence?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's exactly right. Yeah. You're taking in evidence for a suicide.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And a closed case.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You don't do. You're not taking evidence from the body, but you are taking the tree.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Definitely. And the tree couldn't be found. Or maybe it was destroyed in a fire. I couldn't really. There's not. There's no Wikipedia about this. There's, like, not a lot of shit. A lot of the articles are just, you know, the same stuff regurgitated because there's just not a ton of information out there. I couldn't believe there was no Wikipedia about this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So I had to do a lot of work. So Mary had doubts, but it really wasn't until she heard from a friend of Keith's that she really got suspicious. Thank you. So Rodney Kendall was a friend of hers and said that he had seen a car full of black males looking for Keith shortly before his death. Rodney told them they hadn't seen Keith, and they immediately left. Then several days later, Rodney had another odd encounter with a high school acquaintance of both of theirs named Mark Finley. And he said he seemed pretty urgent. I thought it was strange because he acted like he needed to find Keith very quickly. And I told him I didn't know where he was, and he left. So all these people searching for him. Weird. The Maryland County PD refused to hand over the photos taken at the crime scene to his mother because he said they would be too difficult for her to see.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So she's asking to see him, and I say no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And they said that she should have a closed casket, too. So. April in 1992. So this happened in 86. It wasn't until 92, which would have been her son's 25th birthday. Exactly. Mary found a plain manila envelope on her doorstep, anonymous. And inside, there were five pictures, each showing a different view of Keith's hanging by his neck. So those are the photos that I saw.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Whoa.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And so it's from the back. It's. I mean, a close up of his face. It's just. It's so heartbreaking. His face is so sweet and, like, young. So she saw the photos and she found glaring discrepancies, including his clothes didn't fit him, that he was wearing, which made her think she was. He was wearing someone else's clothes. There was no decomposition, which the funeral told her funeral home told her there was. And also he was wearing in the photographs. Remember they had given him brown boots at the funeral home. He was wearing white sneakers in the photographs. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What the fuck?

[Georgia Hardstark]

There was a note attached to all these photos that said, don't worry, Mark Finley will be next. And Mark Finley was the kid who said that he had seen people asking for Keith. So the family hired private detective Joe Allercia, I think, who, in addition to these discrepancies, also saw that. And this is the fucking point of it. That always gives me chills. So Keith had on the back of his jacket leaves and debris, meaning. And he didn't land on his back, meaning they started to think that he had been brought there and hoisted up. So. Da, da, da, da, da. So the family also then hired a renowned forensic pathologist, Isadore Malakis, who exhumed Keith's body and did a toxicology report, which they never fucking did originally. Which is insane.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, even not an autopsy, a toxicology report just seems like a basic, you know. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If you're just looking for information of.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What happened, how did he kill himself? What state of mind was he in at the time?

[Karen Kilgariff]

And also just that the family would want the difference between somebody who has hung themselves and somebody who has died under suspicious circumstances. To give a family a story of your son killed himself is a totally different narrative and says something about your son that then you have to live with, whereas your son being a victim of a murder is a completely different story. It's just like no answers, you get no answers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, well, and someone, you know, there is something too, about the fact that they saw a young black man hanging from a tree. And immediately with suicide, where it's like someone said, it reminded me of the old south and hangings and not that old. I mean, it still happened by fucking racist at the time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So to see him hanging suspiciously and I saw his legs. His feet are on the ground and his legs are kind of bent forward, so he's almost in. Like if he were in a sitting position with his legs forward, then it got hoisted up a little. So he wasn't hanging.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it was definitely like, you know, indicative of lynching.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is indicative the right word?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. I mean, yeah, great. But. But also it's that thing of. Yeah, that's to rush all of that away.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not to immediately at the scene, say suicide.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No. Nope.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no, no, that's. I'm agreeing with you and going with what you're telling me. And it's very upsetting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. Your gallon to it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Skull, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, man. This is called Question Yourself Corner right by Georgia. So. Okay. Toxicology report. Analysis reveals abnormally elevated amounts of. Here we go. Trichloromethane. Methane. Trichloromethane.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A solvent found in paints and lacquers and powerful chemicals that are usually found in glue and solvent. So according to Dr. Isadore Mahalakis, the levels found in Keith's body were more than enough to kill him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And this is a body that has already been. What do you call it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Embalmed. Embalmed and buried. So that was the argument that maybe they came from the embalming, maybe they came from the soil where he was buried. But it was pretty. It was pretty.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The doctor felt sure that it was not that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because they weren't chemicals used in that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And they weren't, you know, they were high enough levels that it wouldn't have been absorbed if it was in the soil.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So, you know, it's the. It's the argument, is it or isn't it? You know, And.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But the doctor's saying I'm. I know what I'm looking at and I know what the situation was, and I'm finding these chemicals there anyway, and that's highly suspicious.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. But the. The other side probably were just as sure that it wasn't true.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, the thing is, once you embalm a body, you can't fucking say anything for sure, which is why you don't rush to embalm a body.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, that one is the biggest glaring thing of. That's the biggest fuck up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. What do you. Or cover up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

For sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. Based on the high levels of this chemical in the victim's body, the doctor concluded that severe mental confusion would have resulted in. And impaired decision making of routine actions. So he couldn't even decide to kill himself if he wanted to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Outside investigators claimed that the way he had apparently hung himself was practically impossible due to the small tree and the fact that two ropes were used in the suicide, which I don't totally understand, because you can still. If you want to kill yourself and you need two ropes, you can still do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I guess what they were saying is the way that's set up and what it sounded like is they were using one tree against the other like that. It was. Yeah. That basically, you can't do that by yourself.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So all he would have needed to hang himself was one rope and one tree. Not. And there was nowhere for him to jump off of either.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So I don't. I think it's probably, you know, they were like, well, you can. You can hang yourself any way you want. But I feel like in the same way that you. When people try to drown themselves, you. You just can't allow yourself to do that. There's some. Something deep in you that stands up or gets out of.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. There's the fight instinct inside of you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. So there's that. And then he said, I do not believe that he would have the ability to hang himself. And for that matter, he would not have the ability to make the decision about hanging himself. And so he ruled the death. That the death must be investigated as a homicide. The family appealed to the Maryland County PD and eventually the United States Attorney General, Janet Reno for a criminal investigation into the death as well as the subsequent actions of the police department. All requests have been denied.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So here's what I wrote. So how did Keith die? And these are kind of taken all over the Internet of ideas. Did he overdose on solvents that were found in his body? He was at a party with friends. Maybe they were huffing. Maybe they were doing drugs. And he overdosed. And his friends panicked and staged his death to look like a suicide to avoid police, which would make sense of his clothes being changed, because maybe he vomited all over his clothing. Maybe there was blood on that. And so that's why they changed his clothes, including his shoes, and they just wanted to make it look like a suicide. Or did someone, you know, come from behind with a rag, and that's why he had the solvents inside of him. So it wasn't his choice. Yeah. His backpack had some of his favorite tapes in it, which points to him maybe going to a party. That's just, in my opinion, like, you know, when you're going out with friends, you're like, I'll bring some music. We're gonna hang out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. Because back in the. I will say this. In the 80s, you didn't travel with tapes. Like, you would make one mixtape maybe, and bring it somewhere. But, like, you usually left that either at home or in your car because they were just such a pain.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So he had his backpack, his favorite tapes in it, which makes me think it's someone he was going to visit, someone he knew in that. What? Just that I was thinking about.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like, party plan.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If it was a party he wore about a mixtape, one or two tapes. If it was his friends, he'd be like, I want you to hear this tape. This new one. This one's great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Does that make any sense?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think so.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's off the top of my head and clearly just speculation.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're just speculating.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So, okay. Some people thought that he may have been. And this is on, like, you know, wiki. What's it called, Reddit and shit, that he may have been an informant to the police and he was found out by the local drug dealers, which might have been the guys in the car, and they were looking for him and killed him. Which makes sense that the cops would cover it up because they don't want everyone to know that they caused a murder. Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Which there's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Actually, I keep trying to find this murder that I found out about a long time ago. There was this girl, this kind of small town. The cops found all this LSD on her and said, you're going to jail forever or you need to be our informant. And the guys, the drug dealers, she went over there wired. They found out, shot her in the head.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But it took them a long time to find out about. I can't find that one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think I remember you telling me about that one. It sounds familiar.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's always stuck with me. It's like the sweet hippie, you know, in the 90s. Hippie girl. Yeah. Okay. So was it a hate crime? Very well could have been. Did he actually somehow commit suicide? I mean, that's always an option, too. It's not. It's not gone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So in a final disturbing twist, the one person who may have been able to answer those questions turned up dead under suspicious circumstances.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Mark Finley.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mark Finley.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When? He was one of the guys who came looking for Keith a few days before he died, and his mother had received the package that said Mark Finley's next, she told him, and he said to her that he would be by to see her soon. And she said. He said, I need to unload. So maybe he was one of the friends at the party. Maybe he knew something. So one month after she received those photos and talked to him, he was dead. According to police, he died accidentally when he struck a curb on his bike and was thrown off in what was described as a freak accident. However, according to paramedics who were on the scene, his wounds were not consistent with a bicycle accident. His wounds were more consistent with being hit by a car or being hit with a baseball bat.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, man.

[Georgia Hardstark]

His wounds were greater than then that could have been then that falling would have caused.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Especially in the location where it allegedly took place.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So his mother, Mary Cooey, died Suddenly in May. May 25th, in 2009. And she dedicated. Yeah, she dedicated, you know, her life after that. Finding justice. They spent a lot of money. They had. What's it called? Awards for finding information.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Reward.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not awards.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, monetary awards, or as we know them, rewards.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. Yes. Thank you. Yeah. Awards Too positive for this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, listen.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So she died. Never found any justice. But her. But Keith's sister, her little sister Sherry Warren, has taken up her mom's fight. She says that even if he died of an accidental overdose, she still wants the Maryland County PD to be held accountable for her actions. So she organizes marches. She is still looking for answers. There's still rewards out there, and she just wants answers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Also, just that idea. It's just that thing of, like, if something procedurally is so screwed up that they're taking pictures of a dead body and there's just kind of a dude loitering in the background, or there's no perimeter on the crime scene, or there's no. Or they're rushing a body to be taken to the funeral home. Like, all of those things, aside from the injustice to this family and to this victim, they can't do it that way ever again. So it's that idea, too, that, like this. It's just that thing. The crime procedure cannot be that screwed up. Like, you just have to learn from those mistakes. Say it's all a mistake.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Best case scenario, it's just a series of terrible mistakes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Especially because those people who were there at the time are probably not on the force anymore. They probably retired. So it's kind of admitting it's the thing of, like, when you hear on these. On, like, 48 hours and all these things of cops saying. Or detectives saying, yeah, we did that wrong, and we learned from It. It's so refreshing to hear because everyone makes mistakes, you know, and we're fucking big on the 80s and 90s and before that being fucked up in terms of, you know, procedures.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So it is. And it is tough because, you know, to be involved in crime, in stopping crime, you have to be a big, tough man who is brave and faces the worst of all SOC all day, every day. And so admitting. Get being flexible and being able to admit mistakes and all those kinds of things don't go along with that Persona. And I think that's changing too. It's that thing of like, it's the. No one's looking for you to be the, like, Texas Ranger.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Or do every single thing correctly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

People make mistakes and it's like, you know, one guy in the. On the force believes it's not what it is. He's not gonna fight with every other guy on there. He's a woman. He's not gonna fight with his fucking boss. You know, you get labeled snitch and you know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. Or troublemaker or whatever it is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

From what we know on Law and Order and all this shit, you get put on, you get desk job, desk duty after that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's exactly right. It's all political. I mean, it's political where it shouldn't be, but. Wow, that's amazing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I just can't believe there's not more on that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. More on that especially because. Well, it also kind of goes to show that. That the. I feel like in this day and age, because that is such a black man being hung and having that not fully and thoroughly looked into is such a. Is so problematic and such a. Like the kind of thing that I think people are working very hard to make sure doesn't get swept under the rug anymore, hopefully.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And to be fair, Case Files did an episode on this like in January. So it's not nobody's, you know, episode 43. He does, you know, his story as well, so I don't want to not give them a shout out him a shout out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But. Yeah, it's fucked up, man. Let's. Let's open that back up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I'd love to know the answer to that. That's crazy. Okay, we're back. Back. Do you have any updates on this case?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I do. So Keith's sister Sherry continues to fight for justice, recently taking Keith's case to a panel of medical examiners. The panel concluded that there's nothing medically to sustain a suicide ruling in his death. So Sherry asked the state to change his death certificate. The Maryland medical examiner has since reclassified Keith's manner of death to undetermined. So it's a step forward. Unfortunately, though, Keith's case remains closed for now. But in 2024, Maryland passed the Death Reclassification act, which requires police to reopen or reinvestigate cases where a death certificate has been changed. Sherry is hopeful that this new law will apply to Keith's case and has said that once the case is reopened, she will be able to rest. Sheri's journey to find the truth has been documented in Uprooted, a three part docu series available on HBO Max. And then also just to point out that when we covered Keith Warren's death in 2017, we couldn't have known that a nearly identical tragedy would be in the headlines again in 2025. Demartraveon Reed, also known as Trey, was a young black man with his whole future ahead of him. He was a student at Delta State University. And on September 15, 2025, just so recently, his body was found hanging from a tree on campus. And police ruled a suicide almost immediately. Just like Keith's case. Question started piling up right away because the scene didn't make sense. Evidence was mishandled, and the ruling just felt rushed. Decades apart, these cases share the same disturbing pattern. Both families have fought to have the deaths investigated as possible homicides, not suicides. And both families have had to push back against indifference from law enforcement. Civil rights lawyer Ben Crump is representing the family. Colin Kaepernick's Know youw Rights camp is funding an independent an autopsy, which is incredible.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, there's a lot of Black creators on TikTok that I've seen when this story broke, Just getting on and saying black men do not go to trees.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's absolutely insane to buy into that story even for one moment, knowing even a little bit about American history. That is an insane like excuse belief that it would be any kind of suicide situation.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's immediately suspicious just based on history.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it's also a dog whistle. And it's also where we are in this country where those kinds of things thinking that they can come back or that people are gonna stand by.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. All right, let's get into your story, Karen, about the Riverside county serial killer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

Provided potential subject to various factors such as customers accounts, age and investment settings. Does not include Acorns fees. Results do not predict or represent the performance of any Acorns portfolio. Investment results will vary.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisors advisor view important [e-mail] MFM Goodbye. Mine's up too. Congratulations. We managed. So rare that you find a murder story. That's awful. I got actually the first whiff of this that I ever heard is from the show Real Detective that we've talked about many times.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So good on Netflix. It is. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is it on Netflix? I'm not sure it's on regular TV now. I haven't just TiVo'd and so I have 10 episodes from regular TV.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Then I call me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Season one is on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry, what you like to call regular TV.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, at this day and age.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It'S just regular TV. But you can also. It's on demand on DirecTV. That's how I watched the one I watched today.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I fucking hate On Demand.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Why?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because you can't put it in a. You can't list it. You have to specifically look for something and then watch it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. You have to know exactly what you're looking for.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I fucking hate that. I want. There's a new show coming up called like New York Detect or like the FBI in New York or some shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And they went immediately to record it and you can't. It's just. I'm gonna forget it immediately.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, we'll make Steven remind you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Listen, Steven, can you change DirecTV, please? Listen, give DirecTV a call.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You need to start writing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. So Real Detective. Try to watch it any way you can. Find out. But the reason I loved this episode was not only because it was a Southern California serial killer that I'd never heard of, which is pretty fascinating. But on this episode, the Real Detective, if you haven't watched it, basically follows the one detective who solves this crime. And that detective is there talking about themselves in the 20 years ago or whenever the thing happened.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's like doing the storytelling. So it's not like a dramatic reenactment.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, there. It's firsthand experience of what it was like for this person to catch this case, go through be at all these crime scenes, and eventually, thankfully, solve the crime.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And there are reenactments, but they're good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly. Because they actually hire great actors. Because it's not just. They don't just do, like, reenactments that are silent. There are whole scenes that they do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, scenes talking and. Yeah. Yeah, it's a really great show.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, so this one is the Riverside County. The name of him was the Riverside County Prostitute Killer originally, but I called him the Riverside County Serial Killer. And the detective's named Bob Creed. And he. He is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Especially.

[Karen Kilgariff]

As a detective, he is so empathetic, and he is so lovely and kind. And the way he talks about all of these victims. The episode starts with him just kind of listing all the victims names. Like, he knows all of them now. So it's that kind of thing where you're just watching a person who. This was his life. And this. He took all of these deaths to heart. And the fact that it was taking place in his hometown and his home territory, and it's this incredible story, so.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, that's refreshing, because when you said the name of what it was before the prostitute killer, I immediately was like, oh, well, then they're not important. So him naming them immediately makes me think that they're important.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's not only that, but the way they present these murders on the show, real detectives, they really play down, if not, don't mention the prostitute aspect at all. So they really are just talking about, they found this victim here, they found this victim here. And when Bob Creed talks about them, he talks about, like, he starts out by saying, these were women with families who loved them. And he talks about the family. They were good families, and they loved their daughters. So it's because all of the. In the Murderpedia articles that I was reading, it's all just, prostitute, drug user.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because you never know the circumstance of their life. You don't in the killing fields do that really well when they talk to their families and sisters. But, you know, when I go missing, is it gonna be ex drug addicts, you know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Cause I'm a drug addict. I was a drug addict at one point.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But I haven't been in 20. You know, it's like. Like, we did. I did a murder when we were doing the live shows, and one of them called her a prostitute, but in other places I saw as a masseuse, and it's like, did she cross some lines at her job? And they called her a prostitute. It's just there's so many. There's so many nuances around it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, yeah, and when you boil, like, in journalism and this kind of journalism, when you boil people's lives down to the. To their criminal records or the, like, the basic facts of their lives, what are you choosing to leave in and what. And what are you choosing to bring out? Because there are lots of people who have been addicted to drugs, whether or not they go to jail for it. There's lots of people on drugs right now that if you died right now, and they took the toxicology report, not you, but, like, anybody in the street, any man in the street, that if they died and they took the toxicology report and they'd be like, well, you're filled with Wellbutrin and Adderall and this and that. You smoke marijuana, Tokamax and pot, and you just had four drinks. So are you a drug user? And so should your murder matter less because of that? And that's kind of like. I was really blown away because when I was reading these old articles, it was one story. But the way Real Detective presents this is so different and it's so modern. And then this detective on top of it, you love him and you love the work that he's doing because it's just very personal. So. All right, stop interrupting. This is like. No, that's okay. I need you to. And the presentation or this, like, what I've written up is a combination of me writing down things from this episode of Real Detective. But it's also. There's an article I found in Murderpedia that gave me a really good timeline and talked a lot about the. These victims. And it was written by a guy named David Lore. His article was called the Riverside Prostitute Killer. I didn't get a year on it, but it does seem old because it's definitely from, like, the early 90s. So anyway, October 30, 1986. So there's an area, I don't know how much you know. Riverside, like the Riverside city or the county?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Vaguely. Even though I'm from here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it's like, it's weird because. Because it's about an hour and a half directly south of where we are right now. And it's never go there. We never go there. It's halfway between here and San Diego. It's inland Lake Elsinore. Is the big. Like this guy? Yeah, that lake that's nearby. It is like, kind of the tourist nice area. And that's where this guy lived.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But most of the murder, the crime scenes are in and around Riverside, the city itself. So there's apparently an industrial area outside of Riverside called Rubedo. And it's like apparently smoggy and gross and it's all factories. So on October 30, 1986, there's a man who's collecting cans around that area and he comes upon the body of a woman who's stuffed into a drainage ditch. She's covered in blood, her clothes are ripped to shreds, and her genitals have been mutilated. So he runs. This man who discovers this horrible crime scene runs to the closest factory to get help. And the police identify her as 23 year old Michelle Yvette Gutierrez. And she's from Corpus Christi, Texas. And her autopsy reveals that she suffered severe trauma to anal and vaginal areas. Multiple stab wounds were discovered on her face, face, chest and buttocks. And she has ligature marks on her neck, suggesting that she'd been strangled while she was being mutilated. Oh, so bad news right away. So two weeks later, on December 11th, the body of 24 year old Charlotte Jean Palmer is discovered near Highway 74 in Romoland, which is 25 miles away from the Gutierrez murder. So seen. And her body was so badly decomposed that they couldn't figure out the cause of death. So they weren't even necessarily related.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In January of 1987. So about a month later, the naked and mutilated body of 37 year old Linda Ann Ortega is found along a dirt road in Lake Elsinore. She had been dead for at least three days. They found alcohol and cocaine in her bloodstream. Investigators later discover that she worked part time in a fast food restaurant, but she also had a rap sheet for drugs and sex working. Now the investigators are starting to see that they have three similar homicides where the young women are being brutally stabbed to death and strangled to death. So then four months later, on May 2, 1987, Martha Bess Young. 27 year old Martha Bess Young is discovered in a ravine not far from the Ortega murder site. She is fully naked in a spread eagle position. She also had a rap sheet for sex work and high levels of drugs were found in her body. And the coroner determines that she's been dead for about three weeks.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Weeks.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And she had died from a lethal dose of amphetamines while she was being strangled.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So like he injected her with amphetamines while he was strangled or like at some point?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know, just that they're both exist like she has a lethal dose in her system. But she, the asphyxiation is what she actually died from. But, but she also. Those things were happening like at the same time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Got it. I was picturing it like. Like at the exact same time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. And like he shot her up while he's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

With one hand on her neck and. Yeah, which probably didn't happen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No. But the first woman who was found, Michelle Gutierrez, also had stab wounds. But she. Lethal stab wounds. But she died from being strangled. So they do think that he kills them and attacks them at the same time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean it's like all one frenzy. It seems like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nice.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, so then no murders for almost two years. And then January 27, 1989, the body of 37 year old Linda Mae Ruiz, who was known as a sex worker, was discovered on the beach of Lake Elsinore. And her head was buried in the sand. And the autopsy reveals she has a high blood alcohol level and there was sand found in her throat. And the cause of death is asphyxiation.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Then about six months later, same year, the body of 28 year old Kimberly Little is discovered in Cottonwood Canyon. Also, she is also known as a sex worker and a drug user. And her autopsy reveals the presence of alcohol and drugs. The. The official cause of death is listed as asphyxiation. And they find on her, they finally find fibers and pubic hairs that are not hers. So they finally find some evidence that they can use that they don't know what to compare it against, but they're saving it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's crazy that many victims, they didn't have a touch of that even, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, not so far that's listed on this article.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or that they knew how to lift at.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, maybe because it was pretty early.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What year is it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is in the late 80s, so it started in 1987.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So they probably didn't know what could be compared, like what could be used as DNA. So even if there's some kind of saliva or the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They wouldn't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Maybe.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Maybe. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So, but also they're starting to, I think, compare. They're starting to keep track of these. So it's like they know they can see what's standing out on these victims as they go. And so they're like, okay, we have a pubic hair that's not hers. They're learning what to look for and what to keep as they go. Okay. So on November 11, same year, a local resident discovers the body bludgeoned and mutilated body of 36 year old Judy Lynn angel near Temescal Canyon Road. And this is just northwest of Lake Elsinore. And she also had a rap sheet for sex, working and drugs. But they discovered defensive wounds in her hands. When her autopsy is being given, she also had several blows to the face and ultimately she died of having her cranium crushed. So then the next month they find the body of 23 year old Christina in Quail Valley. Now she appears fully clothed and not having suffered any serious abuse or mutilation. She had a record for sex, work and drugs. And at that crime scene, investigators found tire tracks for the first time. So they made impressions of those tire.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Tracks, which I found so fascinating that they think to do that to me, that's like one in a million chance of finding that person. But I guess it can be used. Once they find somebody they think is a suspect, what kind of car did they drive at the time?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly. And when it's serial killing, they know, they start finding, taking imprints of tire tracks to compare to the other places because they know that eventually there's going to be some that becomes a consistent impression that they're like, okay, this is, this is the tire, maybe this is the car.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Interesting.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So then when she gets her autopsy, the coroner finds that she had one stab wound to the heart. And they didn't notice it at the beginning because she had been stripped and then redressed by the killer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, so there was no. Through the shirt. There wasn't anything.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It wasn't a stab through the shirt, it was underneath. So the cops didn't see it. What a weird thing right away. Yeah, super weird. Here's a weirder thing, and maybe the weirdest thing of this, of this whole case. When they inspected the victim's genital area, they found the killer had put a light bulb up into the woman's vag in the woman's womb. So he shut all the way up and it was unbroken. And it was also a very, it was a very kind of different. It was a elongated light bulb. It was a different. It wasn't just a standard. It was kind of old timey looking. It wasn't a common one for somewhere in something. Exactly. So they now know that he's escalating and he's becoming more, you know, deviant. He's starting to do weird shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That seems like such a big clue that they're almost lucky to have. Was she dead or alive when that happened? I feel like she must have been dead.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think she must have been dead because it took they said it must have taken a really long time for him to be able to put it up there unbroken.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, because she would have been fighting. She would have, right? Oh, for fuck's sake.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So he is then. Now the escalation is part of that. Them knowing he's escalating is because he's leaving things behind intentionally and he's degrading them more than average. Cause he was, you know, the degradation of being left, you know, often spread eagle, often half naked in ditches, in drainage, you know, in like on these places where he's just saying these people are garbage with how he's leaving them. But now he's adding to it even more in a very upsetting way. Okay, so then on the morning of January 18, 1990. So it's actually only a month later, but it's the next year. Investigators get called to a scene east of the I15 in Lake Elsinore. A jogger had found the half nude body of a woman who is identified as 24 year old sex worker Darla Jane Ferguson. She had been strangled so severely that she nearly bit off her own tongue.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, fuck. I didn't know that was a thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I didn't either. Investigators find tire tracks at this crime scene. Make impressions at this crime scene.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Amazing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A month later, February 8, 1990. Farmers working at an orchard in High Grove find that nude body of 35 year old Carolyn Miller, also known as a sex worker and drug addict. She had gone missing a month earlier. She. She had multiple stab wounds to the chest and she also had a wound near her right nipple. They found pubic hairs on this victim that they kept. And this murder is where that episode of Real Detective starts. Because they basically come in and they talk about how these murders had been going on, but they just. It was that kind of thing of like they would have a murder and it would be a sex worker and they would be like, oh, no. And they were like suspecting that they had a serial killer. But it wasn't until this. I think this may have been Bob Creed's like one of his early.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like when he got put on the case was that point.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, because I think he was on this task force early. But I guess that the, the point of interest was when he got there and he was looking at the crime scene, he realized that his grandfather used to own that orchard.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Whoa.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And so he's starting to go, is this guy fucking with us? Yeah, like is this guy doing this on purpose? Because they also. There was a half eaten grapefruit that had Been peeled, half eaten and thrown on the victim.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What the fuck?

[Karen Kilgariff]

So there is like a lot of kind of messaging in that. It's kind of like he was really freaked out about. So obviously the guy was taking his time. He was purposely.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What's the word? Antagonizing the police.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's what, that's, that's where he started to go like, could this guy know, could this guy have known that this was my grandfather's like, he's like, we used to play here when I.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Was a little kid. Yeah. Coincidental.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So I wish I knew exactly when they put this task force together. I don't have it. But basically it was like, I would say probably after the fifth or sixth body. They actually put a dedicated task force together to be like, what is going on? But they never find fingerprints at any scene. They know that the bodies have been taken to those scenes and dumped there. That they're. So they can rarely find any evidence. And they've only found tire prints twice up up until this point.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And no semen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not that. Not that I've ever heard.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I feel like they would say so.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. So yeah. So the guy's very careful. Okay. So on December 21, 1990, a janitor emptying a the garbage at a factory complex on Iowa Avenue discovers the nude and carefully posed body of a young woman who turns out to be 27 year old Susan Sternfeld. Also local sex worker, drug addict. There's no mutilation on her remains. She died of strangulation. The county coroner eventually finds out. Next, 42 year old Kathleen Leslie Milne is discovered on January 19th. A motorist is driving by and sees her body alongside a road northwest of Lake Elsinore. She had been rendered unconscious by several blows to the head and strangled. But she had been dead less than 24 hours.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God. I would hate to be the person who found her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, so. So horrifying. So then a couple months later, April 27, a transient stumbles upon the body of 24 year old Cherie Michelle Pazer, a part time maid and sex worker. She'd been left in a flower bed in a bowling alley parking lot. She'd been violated, strangled, posed. And this is awful. She had a toilet plunger protruding from her vagina. So this is a person that is. Is intent on degrading after murdering, degrading these victims. And there's a couple parts in this episode of Real Detective where he is, Bob Creed is talking and then he just stops talking and stares and then they just cut away to something Else, because he's just like, he's remembering these horrible scenes that he had to come upon. End process.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, what I noticed too is that it seems like he's getting more and more bold with where he leaves the bodies.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because he's not putting him in a drainage ditch where no one will see him put it there. He's putting in a flower bed in a parking lot of like probably busy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Business at a bowling alley.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A bowling alley. That's just so bold.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, exactly. Right. Because he's gotten away with it now. How many? 12 times or however many. Whatever number I'm on that's just fucking with them. Yeah. So now he's like, I'm smarter than the police. I can get away with the this. I'm doing whatever I want. I can't breathe. Okay, so now, July 4, 1991. Picnickers near Railroad Canyon Road discover the remains of 37 year old Sherri Ann Latham. Also has a rap sheet for sex work and drug use. Her hand was wrapped around nearby branches, suggesting she was still alive when the killer left.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, uh huh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

An autopsy later reveals that she'd been strangled and they find cat hairs on her corpse. According to her friends, she did not own a cat. So now the investigators are thinking the killer does.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So they take those hairs and they put them aside.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Kind of monster murders women, but also has a cat.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, it kind of goes to show how great cats are.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They love you no matter what, no matter what kind of monster you are.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Monsters love them no matter what. Okay, so they get their first major lead on August 15, 1991, because a man driving a gray van picks up a sex worker near the University of California, Riverside. And she told investigators that everything was fine at first. Then he becomes angry and starts assaulting her. And she manages to jump out of his van and run down.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Good girl.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So he leaves, but then he stops in a nearby corner and he picks up her friend, 23 year old Kelly Hammond. So this is what's interesting. This I'm reading from a part of that article, but in the episode of Real Detective, when they come upon this body, Bob Creed lifts up the, you know, the tarp that's over her, whatever that's covering her. And he goes, I know this girl. No, she lives in his neighborhood.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my. Oh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And he watched her and her mom walk by his house a couple times a day. So he knows her. And that's again where he's like, this guy's fucking with me. This guy knows that I'm working on this case, he knows these people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, I would think this is someone I know. This is someone who knows me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. Well, the other thing too, it's smart of you to think the other thing too is in this episode of Real Detective, they do not mention that either of these women are prostitutes at all.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sex workers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sex workers. Sorry. At all. Which I think is really interesting. Cause they basically, the story comes in as this girl, the girl that got away. Her name is Ali White Cloud. And she comes in and says, we were at a bar. This is how they. And I wonder if it's because that's how either she wanted it presented or that they were trying to erase the stigma of sex work.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Definitely.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But it's. Ally White Cloud comes in and says, my friend and I were at a bar and we met this guy and she wanted to go home with him. I didn't want to. He offered both of us a ride. I said, don't go with him. And she did. And so she goes to the police and gives a full description and description describes the van.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So I don't. Whatever version of this is the truth or whatever. I think it's interesting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Doesn't really matter though.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It doesn't matter. But I also think it's interesting and I like the fact that Real Detective just presented as. It's a girl that almost got pulled into a van and then came and spoke for her friend to the police.

[Georgia Hardstark]

With respect.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, yeah. So they do an APB with the description of this guy. And he's the creepiest. Look. It's the creepiest looking picture because he's wearing like sunglasses and a photograph or like a drawing. It's a drawing. It's a police sketch. And the van he's driving is 1989 Mitsubishi van, which is one of the weirdest looking vans.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's got that flat front. Is that the one?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Like it? Yes. Like when you're in the front seat, wherever you park, it's like you're right there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I totally know that one. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it has a weird. Almost like a nautical window in the back. Like a little round window. Like a creepy van window.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So, okay, so now they have way more information about this guy than they've had for since 1986. So it's a huge. It's a huge lead. They put out the apb and so now the cops are looking for. Oh. They also say, is there anything else you can remember? And she says that when he opened up the back, she remembers seeing a red sleeping bag. And at most of These crime scenes, they found animal hair which turned out to be a tan cat hair at every scene, and red nylon fibers which they linked to and matched to the kind of nylon fibers that they find on sleeping bags.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What a crazy thing. I feel like there's so many people. And this is what he talks about in someone knows something where it's like that is one detail that you wouldn't. Why would you bother mentioning that? But that is actually really important to the case. So that's really interesting. I thought you were going to say that she said she saw a cat in his van. No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, just. It's close. It's the other, the other thing. But that's when in, you know, they presented in the Real Detective show, like when she's giving all that information, when she says that thing about a red sleeping bag, he's just like, dang, this is the guy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Love it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So they put out all that information and.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So they the basically from all of the information and the victims that they've had so far, the task force knows this, that all the victims are found raped, stabbed, asphyxiated, nude, posed. They all have ligature marks on their wrists, ankles and neck. They have one set of shoe impressions. So they know that he carries them to the scene dead and leaves them there. And that he works alone. They say that if he's married, his wife would work nights because then he can just do, clearly he can do whatever he wants at night and he's not being questioned about it or, or no one's suspicious of him. They never find fingerprints at any of the scenes, but they consistently find cat hair and they consistently find those red nylon fibers. It'd be more exciting if I had said that before that the thing I just said. But anyhow, so on October 30, 1991, they see a man is driving along Summerhill Drive and he sees what he thinks is a mannequin. Never a mannequin, you guys, never a fucking mannequin. He goes up and finds that it's the dead body of 35 year old Delilah Zamora Wallace, mother of five, also known sex worker and drug addict. She's also. Her cause of death is asphyxiation. Then two days before Christmas, Eleanor Ojeda Casaris body is found near Victoria Avenue, which is just down the street from the Riverside police station. She's 39 years old, she's been strangled and her right breast is missing. She was also had a rap sheet for sex work and drugs. And the cops are positive that he placed her There too close to the police station to fuck with them. So the very Last victim is 31 year old Catherine McDonald. She's found raped and murdered in a field by a construction broker. There they find a set of tire tracks and they find footprints that match a pro wing tennis shoe. They know now he's rushing, he's escalating because this is the sloppiest he's ever been. So they process all of that. Then they go to make a next known next of kin. They go to tell notification for the Mexican. They go to her house, they find the front door open and the house is dark. They walk through the house, guns drawn, and they finally find Catherine's three year old daughter, who's been by herself since her mother disappeared the night before, hiding downstairs. So sad. And it's the saddest part of the whole episode. This little girl who is just hiding alone in a house cause her mom, mom didn't come back. Her mom went, took the garbage out and disappeared.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, so she didn't even see anything. She's just like, no, no, no, something is wrong.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Her mom walked outside and never came back inside at night.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Horrifying.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, so she was snatched.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, she was. And which he hadn't done that before.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was out in front of her own house. So. Oh my God. They have. Altogether, they had found five different types of tire prints at these crime scenes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hmm.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So Bob Creed decides, he asked the guy to check, is there one type of van that could use all five of those types of tires? And one type of van comes back and it's a 1989 Mitsubishi and it's this type of van. It's so weird looking. So on the night of January 9, 1992, Officer Frank Orta is patrolling University Avenue, which is where a lot of sex workers were known to walk. And he sees that exact type of van. Fuck. So he follows it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can you imagine seeing that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, there it is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What the fuck?

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it has expired tags. And so he pulls it over and he talks to the driver a little bit. He asks the driver to open up the back of the van. The driver says, sure, no problem. He opens it up, there's a red sleeping bag there. And the officer places him under arrest. Now they bring him into the station and somebody immediately starts questioning him. They don't wait for Bob Creed, who is the head of this task force for like five fucking years. They don't wait for him to come down to question him. Just whoever was there. I don't know exactly how it happened. So the guy they arrest immediately is like, I want a lawyer. I'm not saying anything.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Son of a cunt, man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So Bob Creed doesn't even get to question him. But here's what they end up finding out, that the guy, the driver of this van is a man named Bill Suff. He was born August 20, 1950 in Torrance, California. According to his high school classmates, he was friendly, a skillful musician, and he graduated 87th in a class of 144. So not a, you know, sounds like a C minus student. His brothers were very troubled. One of them was a drug addict, the other was a pedophile. Suff ended up living in Texas. And there in 1974, when he was 24 years old, he and his former wife were arrested and later convicted for the beating death of their two year old daughter.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are you fucking kidding me?

[Karen Kilgariff]

He was there sentenced to 70 years in prison, but he was paroled after serving 10 years.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Why? No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

His wife served 20 months, but her conviction was overturned when it was found that he was fully responsible for the beating death of a two year old child.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can you imagine not only having your child beat to death by her husband, but then getting sent to being held responsible and sent like she's mourning in the most painful way and then she goes to jail.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And in jail you hurt your own kid. If you're in jail for hurting your own kid, you're like a pedophile in man's jail.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Jesus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And they are tortured. And so, yeah, she spent over a year in prison as a baby killer. So when Bill Suff is paroled, he goes back to Southern California, he gets out of Texas, and he then gets a job. He's now 41 years old. He gets a job as a stock clerk. And he is known to be a writer of books. He likes to drive fancy cars. He does community service work. He also likes to impersonate police officers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Of course he does.

[Karen Kilgariff]

His neighbors described him as a friendly nerd who was always doing things to help people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What the fuck?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So basically now Bob Creed is scrambling to find evidence they can hold him on because they finally have him in custody. But you know, he's gonna get, get. He's going to get out and he's. And more women are going to die. So they look into his background. They find out that he works for Riverside County Supply. So he is a clerk at the supply company that supplies desks and chairs for the Riverside Police Department. So when they were putting together the task force and building the task force Every time they would order a desk or some chairs or a chalkboard. Well, Bill Suff was the guy that would come and deliver it straight into the room where they were investigating his serial murders.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What? I bet he enjoyed that so much.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He not only enjoyed it, he knew exactly what they were doing. So the first time they knew that they had touched imprints, he changed the tires on his van every time he would go in there because they were constantly. At one point, they said some officers working on the case asked him if they could use his phone and made a phone call on his phone trying to track something down for the murders he was committing. So he was just this neutral face in the background that they saw as like, oh, that's the delivery guy, that's the clerk guy. But meanwhile, he was all eyes and ears. Every time he was in that room, he was looking at everything. He was memorizing all of it. He knew exactly what they were doing and he knew who they were.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which is weird that he then didn't get rid of the red sleeping bag kind of.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. That must not have been a prominent thing like up on the board. But it's so amazing because they in real detective, they set it in really perfectly where he's in the bat when, like the first time they have the task force meet, Bob Creed clears the room and then starts telling everybody, blah, blah, blah. Well, Bill Suff is one of the people he asked to leave the room.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So he's in there like, he's working side by side with, like, near the police.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So Bob Creed gets a search warrant for Bill Suff's house. And when he arrives there, he's surprised to meet Bill Suff's 18 year old wife.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So this is where it all comes together. She tells the detective she works nights. He's standing in their kitchen. She offers to make coffee. She's like, I need coffee because I'm so tired because I was up all night. He's like, oh, you work nights? A tan cat runs through the room. He looks over and sees a pair of pro wing tennis shoes over in the corner where all the shoes are by the back door. So when he's looking out the window, he sees a truck bed that's filled with tires. And he's like, what's up with the tires? And she's like, oh, he's always out there changing the tires on that van. So he was changing the tires. Anytime he would see them get a tire imprint, he would change the tires on his van.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Then the kicker is he looks at the lamp that's hanging over the kitchen table, tips it up, and sees it's exactly the same kind of light bulb that was left inside his victim. And he's like this. This is. We're here. So he essentially. They arrest him. They get him. He is tried and convicted for 12 counts of first degree murder and one count of attempted murder. The jury deliberated for 10 minutes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And they came back. They gave him the death penalty. He's still on death row in San Quentin to this day, and the police believe he is responsible for 22 murders, if not more, in Riverside County.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I wonder what. You know, he was gone for those two years. I wonder where he went and what happened at that time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You mean where there was no bodies found?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or. Yeah, there was. Nobody's found for two years.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Because that's a long time. And he usually. It just goes faster and faster.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And Bob Creed, who I have to say is just like one of those. I feel like detectives are those. They're like. All the good cops become detectives. It's like the ones that are on the street that are good at it, and they're smart. Smart. Yeah. And they get promoted and they become detectives. And he so clearly was one of those people that, like, treated these women like his neighbors and his friends. And he. When he talks about going to talk to Kelly Hammond's mother, it's like a big part of that episode where he's like, we know these people. We have to tell them. We have to now change their life for the worse by us being there and being like, your daughter's dead.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He eventually. Detective Bob Rob Creed eventually became the head of Major Crimes, the Major Crimes unit in Riverside County. Yeah. And that's the Riverside serial killer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That was fucking crazy. And I had no idea. Good job, dude.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thanks. I know. I had no idea either. Like, Riverside is close by, and I've never heard of that guy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so funny. Like, the way you find these murders now. I just put in the weirdest searches. And you still don't know anything. What's going on?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, I do find it fascinating. They know almost nothing about this guy's childhood, which I would love to know, because obviously it was insanely fucked up. If his two brothers are insanely fucked up and he is the worst of all of them, I would love to know what kind of evil and insane parents they had and what that situation was. But I really love that show for how much it really shows it's like the side that you never get to hear, which is these detectives and, like, the experience that they go through and the years sometimes that they spend trying to find these killers, it's just. It's so insane. There's the one on the killer that you did. The guy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ben Mendelsohn. No, his last name is Ben something.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, child. Bar Jonah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Yes, yes, yes. That wasn't even what I was saying. And you knew what I was saying.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm so shocked that I knew that. What I like about that show, too, is that it gives you little glimpses into the PTSD that, you know, they fucking have. And so they're not trying to be like, this is what happened. It's like the one I did. He starts crying.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. No, they suffer terribly. I mean, Jesus. Like that guy having to. It was like a child killer that had multiple victims and every story was horrible. And that one is especially great. Cause the way he eventually finds him is he starts walking the path that those children were taking to school, and he finds Bar Jonah standing in a security guard outfit at the end of one of those alleys.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is why you make them move their finger from the photo.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is why you fucking do it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's exactly right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If someone knocks on your door, if you get pulled over and they're holding up a badge, you fucking call that number into the police department and make sure it's real before you. Yeah, I guess if you're on a rural area, if you're alone in the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

House now, you're finding reasons to say rural.

[Georgia Hardstark]

God damn it. I am. You're right. Rural.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You can say farmland.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're in farmland.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Out in the country.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Out in the country. Do not. You don't have to. You don't have to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, you get to check first. It's your rate. And, like, I'll tell you what, those FBI agents, agents flipped. The one guy flipped open his quiet friend behind him, I was like, what are you doing?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It kind of looked like they were coming for us a little bit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A little bit. But you don't look at the ID when someone flips a thing like that at you. You look at the badge, you look at the thing where you're like, oh, this is a real cop. And you get all caught up in the kind of like the gold badge part.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I wonder if you're allowed to say, hand me that, and I want to look at it. What's your name? What's your this, what's your that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, a Real cop would give it to you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What would they have to lose?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, they would want you to believe they were a cop. It's why they're showing it to you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Listen, hey, be cautious.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Instead of everyone listening is like, we are.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, you've already taught us that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We know. We did that before.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. That's all this podcast is, is warning you and scaring you and giving you anxiety and then telling you how to get rid of your anxiety. Okay, we're back. Karen, are there any updates?

[Karen Kilgariff]

There are. This is such. Obviously another horrible moment in time. So this correction is awful as well. When Suff murdered his daughter, I said that she was two years old. She was actually two months old.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Jesus Christ.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, in 2024, investigators LinkedIn to the 1986 cold case killing of a 19 year old Southern California woman named Kathy Small. They did that using DNA from Kathy's clothing and the rape kit that was collected after her murder. And when detectives interviewed Suff about the DNA match, he confessed. He remains on death row. He's 75 years old.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, well, this was such a dark episode.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's go back and hear what we had to say about our good things of the week way back in 2017. 17.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What's a positive thing from this week?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I totally knew it at some point and now I forgot it. What's yours?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I would just say that this, my. This past birthday was like one of the best birthdays I've ever had because I'm at the age now where, like, I honestly don't care about birthdays. So the last couple have been super low key, if not. Not totally doing nothing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You didn't even fucking. We were recording that day and you didn't tell me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, I didn't remember.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, but why would you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, but you should have told me, but you didn't care, so you don't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, but. But that was my. In my mind, I was like, it doesn't matter and I don't care. But it's actually not true because you. Well, first of all, so many people, because of your tweet, responded to the lovely tweet you sent to me about my birthday. But there were just so many nice things and not just people that listen to the podcast. But then my actual friends knew and said lovely things. And it's like when you actually give people a chance to do that if they want to, then they do, and.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It'S really nice and it makes them feel good too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Exactly. It was just lovely. And we had that fun dinner and watching in D.C. that was so nice. It's like, what if I just threw up for no reason? It was just like a really lovely kind of redefining birthday experience.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it was nice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Happy birthday.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thanks.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Congratulations.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thanks so much.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Way to go. Something I love or I'm happy about is when Steven babysits the cats when we go out of town. It just makes me so happy because I know they love him and they like hanging out with him. And I. And I know this because Steven. The first couple days of us being gone, Stephen babysat them and sent me photos constantly. And I could tell they were happy. And they don't run away when he comes in. And then my dad was gonna stay at our place for the rest of the weekend. And so Stephen left. And when my dad, who doesn't like cats, came in the door, he said, oh, Elvis came out at first and then ran away immediately. And I think he thought my dad was Steven and got excited. Cause the guy who gives him all the. The cookies was there and then realized it was my dad ran away. So. Thanks, Stephen. It means a lot to me that. To have someone there who I really. I know loves my cats.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, I just have the best time. And, like, I've always told you that, like, I'll come over here. You're always like, you and Vince are always like, come do some work, hang out for a while. And then I end up just hanging out with the cats. Don't get anything done. It's just pictures of Elvis. Good pets. Yeah. Love it. Have a good time. You have my Instagram password for the cats, too, so I'm like, go for it. It's great. Thank you. So thanks for doing that. And guess I pay him. Don't worry, I'm not. You get paid in loving. And Mike's being nice to you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, we're back. Stephen no longer watches my animals when I'm gone. I'm sorry to say that we couldn't let him anymore because he was so. My friend's been doing it since then. My friend Crystal. So Stephen just gets pictures of the animals.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sorry, Stephen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right, so this episode was originally called Never a Mannequin, which is a.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hard one to top. Yeah, we could call it what Do Girls Like? Combining true crime and Zac Efron is what you meant by that, and you are not wrong. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or flip a coin. To flip a coin. Which was Georgia talking about our lack of professionalism compared to, say, the other investigative podcasts that we are fans of and not them. Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And never have been.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Never tried to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or we could call it reasons to say rural. Oh, I hate that word so much. There's always a reason to say it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, get in there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, well, thank you guys for listening to Rewind. Let's go back in time and we'll let Elvis say goodbye to you from 2017. You guys, thanks for listening.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We really appreciate it. And you guys are. This is the best. I can't. This is the best.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's pretty nice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. I like it. All right, well, you guys stay sexy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And don't get murdered. Elvis, you want a cookie?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. Bye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Bye. Mint is still $15 a month for premium wireless. And if you haven't made the switch yet, yet, here are 15 reasons why you should. One, it's $15 a month. Two. Seriously, it's $15 a month. Three, no big contracts. Four. I use it. Five, my mom uses it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Are you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are you playing me off? That's what's happening, right? Okay, give it a try. @mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for three month plan.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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