Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 72: Steven It Out

Summary

My Favorite Murder: Rewind with Karen & Georgia – “72: Steven It Out”

Podcast: My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Episode: Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 72: Steven It Out
Original Air Date: Nov 26, 2025
Original 72nd Episode Air Date: June 8, 2017 (Georgia’s Birthday)

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Episode Overview

This “Rewind” episode features Karen and Georgia returning to their 72nd episode, “Steven It Out.” They layer new commentary and updates over the original, reflecting on favorite bits, sharing behind-the-scenes details, and providing recent true-crime updates. Key discussions include the story of Larry Eyler (the “Interstate Killer”), the notorious “Pillow Pyro” arsonist John Orr, nostalgia about early days of the podcast, and plenty of their classic witty banter.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Revisiting the 72nd Episode: Podcast Nostalgia

(02:09 – 06:00)

• Karen and Georgia reminisce about the original episode, which first aired on Georgia’s 37th birthday in 2017. They joke about being “bad at podcasting” (03:03) and recall their dynamic early on.
• Roles and Overwhelm: They discuss how they divided responsibilities based on what overwhelmed each of them—Karen handled the info email and podcast naming, Georgia managed merch and magazine subscriptions, joking about “Better Homes and Gardens” and “Popular Mechanics” (04:13).

Notable Quote:

“It’s funny how you and I both just get overwhelmed at different things, and so we do the thing that we’re not overwhelmed by…”
– Georgia (03:39)

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2. Reflections on Family, Social Media, and Comedy

(05:15 – 08:00)

• Georgia shares a story about her mother seeing a joking tweet (“the hardest job in the world is raising your mother”), and both hosts joke about their parents lurking online.
• Reminiscing about Chicago in 2016, meeting family and enduring cold, including a memorable run-in with a sarcastic local who suggested, “You could Google it.”

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3. Community Love & International Reach

(10:00 – 15:00)

• The hosts celebrate hearing that a “Murderino” (fan) named Natalie Krug appeared on the Australian game show “The Chase,” citing their motto “Stay Sexy and Don’t Get Murdered.” Karen and Georgia are thrilled by their show’s international impact, particularly in Australia.

Notable Quote:

“Our Australian listeners are the best. And we’re so lucky to have such a strong contingent down there… and the kind of people who would do that.”
– Karen (23:58)

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4. TV and True Crime Banter

(16:00 – 21:00)

• Karen and Georgia riff on recent binge watches—“Luther,” “Murder Book,” “Real Detectives,” “Occult Crimes,” “Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt,” and “Bob’s Burgers”—and discuss how pop culture intertwines with their comfort and moods.
• They humorously dissect recommendations fans send, like the perennial “have you seen Luther?” exchanges.

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5. Deep-Dive: The Interstate Killer – Larry Eyler

(27:40 – 65:00)
Georgia presents the primary case segment from the original ep, adding new research and updates.

Key Story Outline

• Larry Eyler, aka the Interstate Killer, murdered at least 21 (possibly more) young men between 1982 and 1984, mostly hitchhikers across Indiana, Illinois, Kentucky, and Wisconsin.
• Eyler had a traumatic upbringing; reports cite severe parental instability and child abuse.
• After failing to face consequences for an early, survived assault, bodies continued to be discovered across the Midwest, many showing signs of stabbing, mutilation, or ligature marks.
• A turning point came when police found evidence in Eyler’s truck after stopping him with a bound man (35:02). However, due to procedural errors, critical evidence was excluded, and Eyler was released on bail—allowing him to kill again.
• Eyler’s final arrest followed the discovery of victim Danny Bridges’ dismembered body (44:13). The involvement of police, speculated stings with teen sex workers, and possible accomplice (Dr. Robert David Little, a university library science chair) added layers of tragic complexity.
• Eyler confessed to numerous murders but was ultimately convicted of Danny Bridges’ murder. He died of AIDS in prison in 1994, but posthumously provided details on other victims.
• Updates: Recent identification of several John Doe victims through DNA and a National Geographic docuseries, Naming the Dead (“The Hitchhiker”).

Notable Quote:

“It’s just another one of those, like, a disenfranchised group of people are getting killed so nobody cares and it’s not a big deal to anyone except their families. So why prosecute hard?”
– Georgia (66:26)

Key Timestamps

• Introduction of Larry Eyler’s crime spree: (28:30)
• Procedural police error leading to more murders: (41:05)
• Discovery of Danny Bridges’ remains: (44:13)
• The Dr. Little accomplice theory: (50:55)
• Legal aftermath and prosecution politics: (60:22–66:26)
• Broader cultural context: Empathy, social change & dehumanization: (67:07–72:21)
• Updates: Recent victim identifications and docuseries: (72:38)

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6. Bonus Topic: The Pillow Pyro – John Orr

(77:01 – 114:26) Karen presents this case from the original episode, again with reflection and contemporary updates.

Key Story Outline

• Through the '80s and early '90s, arsonist John Orr set thousands of fires in Southern California, many fatal, including the devastating Ole’s hardware store fire in Pasadena (1984) that killed four.
• Orr’s pattern merged with his job; he was the chief arson investigator for Glendale Fire, often present at the very scenes he set.
• Meticulous investigation by fire captain Marvin Casey and ATF’s Mike Matassa caught Orr after discovering his fingerprint on a homemade incendiary device, eventually matching prints through a city employee database.
• Orr was found with detailed manuscripts describing crimes identical to his own, including sexual gratification from fire-setting and scenarios matching the real-life victims.
• He is considered America’s worst serial arsonist, responsible for an estimated 2,000–10,000 fires. Despite overwhelming evidence, he maintains his innocence to this day.

Notable Quote:

“Before his arrest, the average number of brush fires in the hills above Glendale and Burbank was 67 a year. After his arrest, that number dropped to three.”
– Karen (105:00)

Key Timestamps

• Description of the Ole’s hardware store fire: (81:00)
• Discovery of the slow-burning incendiary device: (83:12)
• The “arson investigator is the arsonist” reveal: (91:13)
• Discovery of Orr’s incriminating manuscript: (99:50 – 101:54)
• Discussion of psychopathy and mirror neurons: (105:20 – 109:01)
• TV/Podcast updates and pop culture connections: (113:37)

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7. Culture, Psychology, and Empathy

(67:07 – 72:21, 105:20 – 110:19)

• Karen and Georgia talk through how dehumanization and social oppression set the groundwork for violence against marginalized groups, and how improved social empathy has changed crime response and cultural attitudes.
• Karen offers a digestible breakdown of mirror neurons, anxiety as a survival mechanism, and the psychological research of psychopathy (“Psych2Go” videos).
• They reflect on the change in societal empathy for LGBTQ+ people, the impact of jokes and language, and how this all relates to understanding crime victims and perpetrators.

Notable Quote:

“When you repress and oppress people and tell them that they can’t be who they are, the kind of things, the kind of psychological damage that that causes… it’s such a fucking heavy concept.”
– Karen (68:18)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Joking with Steven (the editor):
  “Steven that out. Please.” (31:23)—the phrase “Steven it out” becomes their shorthand for cutting mistakes or tangents, inspiring the episode title and running jokes throughout.
• On being bad at podcasting:
  “We were bad at this podcast is because we couldn’t say the same things at the exact same time.”
  – Karen (03:10)
• Family therapy secrets:
  “We made up a secret handshake, and then we hated the therapist together and everything was fine.”
  – Georgia (14:30)
• Birthday Levitation
  “My birthday wish for myself. Learn to levitate.”
  – Georgia (117:00), referencing an in-joke and classic fan meme.

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True Crime & Pop Culture Crossovers

• Pride in being referenced on international game shows (“The Chase” in Australia).
• Reflection on how TV enhances mood (“Kimmy Schmidt,” “Bob’s Burgers”), and their tendency to communicate in “Simpsons” and “Pee Wee’s Big Adventure” references.
• Lively tangent about “Fargo," casting confusion, and the risks of being overconfident in one’s TV knowledge (52:50 – 56:33).
• Discussion of forensic TV (Forensic Files), documentaries, and the new series Smoke (Apple TV, 2025) and docuseries like National Geographic’s Naming the Dead (2025).

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Recent Updates & Listener Recommendations

• Genetic genealogy led to the identification of several of Eyler’s previously unidentified victims in 2021 and 2023, covered in detail with encouragement to watch National Geographic’s “Naming the Dead” (73:45).
• Podcast and TV recommendations:
  • “firebug” podcast (2021) covers John Orr in detail.
  • “Smoke” (Apple TV, 2025) dramatizes the Pillow Pyro story.

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Notable Timestamps for Reference

• Start of show/rewind premise: (02:02)
• Discussion of Australian Murderino on “The Chase”: (10:00 – 15:00; revisit at 23:44)
• Eyler case deep dive: (27:40 – 65:06)
• Legal and social context discussion: (65:16 – 72:21)
• Recent victim identifications: (72:38)
• John Orr “Pillow Pyro” arsonist story: (77:01 – 114:26)
• Reflections on podcast memories, memes, and levitation: (116:42 – 117:42)

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Final Thoughts & Tone

The episode is classic MFM: grim true-crime stories wrapped in humor, tangents, and sincere empathy. Karen and Georgia blend laughter, social commentary, trauma awareness, and real crime reporting. Their conversational, wry tone is balanced with moments of seriousness, especially when addressing the suffering of marginalized victims and the failures of the justice system.

Episode End:

“Stay sexy, and don’t get murdered.”
– Georgia and Karen (118:46)

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For Further Listening/Viewing

• My Favorite Murder episode 72: “Steven It Out”
• National Geographic’s “Naming the Dead: The Hitchhiker” (2025)
• Apple TV+ “Smoke” (2025)
• “Firebug” podcast (2021)
• “The Return of Larry Eiler” by John Conroy (Chicago Reader, 1992)
• “Fire Lover” by Joseph Wambaugh (book)

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Stay sexy. Don’t get murdered.

Transcript

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, let's talk holiday shopping.

[Karen Kilgariff]

From now through December 8th, you can get 20% cash back when you pay in four with PayPal. No fees, no interest.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This limited time offer is perfect for the Black Friday and Cyber Monday deals you've been eyeing. Save the offer in the app now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So whether you're buying tickets to an improv show or a whodunit board game, PayPal helps you make the most of your money this holiday.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Expires December 8th. See paypal.com promoterms Subject to approval.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Learn more at paypal.com payinfor PayPal Inc. NMLS 910457 Goodbye Goodbye Daniel Craig returns as Benoit Blanc with an all star ensemble cast for his most dangerous case yet.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When young priest Judd Duplentis is sent to assist charismatic firebrand Monsignor Jefferson Wicks, it's clear that not all is well in the pews.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Written and directed by Rian Johnson. Critics are calling it the sharp, sharpest Knives out movie yet. Watch Wake Up Dead Man, a Knives out mystery now in select theaters and on Netflix.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Rated PG13.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hello and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Every Wednesday we recap our old episodes with all new commentary, updates and insights. And you're welcome to listen.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Today we're recapping episode 72, which we named Steven It Out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This episode came out on June 8, 2017, which is also Georgia's birthday.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My birthday. I was turning 37. Let's listen to the intro of episode 72.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Welcome to My Favorite Murderer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's Karen Kilgariff.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's Georgia Hardstock.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And here we are looking at Steven.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ray Morris as if to say, hey, what's up with you?

[Georgia Hardstark]

With you. And that's what the podcast is all about.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Two people trying to Talk at the same time. Saying the same words. Thing. Yeah, I can't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I can't either.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Either. Shit, the finger does help.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Either. We're bad at this podcast.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm bad at improv. I'm bad at doing what other people want.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We were bad at this podcast is because we couldn't say the same things at the exact same time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's what makes you bad at podcasting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In every article, they're like. They're okay, but they can't say the same word of the same. So just. Time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, shit. Time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

See another. If you listen to episode what is the 70. What is this, Stephen? 72. 72.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Stephen. How do you know? How do you know that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because I'm in that. In the email. I'm the info email.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't check that. I know. I get overwhelmed. It's funny how you and I both just get overwhelmed at different things, and so we do the thing that we're not overwhelmed by, and the other person just, like, doesn't fucking pay attention to it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, you are. You're the description person and the naming of the podcast person and who gets back when people are like, hey, do you want this podcast to be posted?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I'm like, no, I can't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can't do it. I don't want to be in this. And then you're the merch person. You're the magazine person.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A magazine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You get us all the magazine subscriptions that we want.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Better Homes and Gardens, Sunset, Popular Mechanics.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If that were my job for this podcast. So I would be sad.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You would be sad to get magazines here.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I got you a copy of. From 4 months ago of Psychology Today. It's right here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Four months ago. I kind of have been sleeping on the job.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's so nice of you. Well, I guess I'll read it now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Would you? Okay, let's. Stephen, can you edit this out? Okay. And we're back.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And welcome.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Karen. How is Psychology Today?

[Karen Kilgariff]

To my very. Oh. Oh, I thought you meant we're back. Starting over.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, hell no. We never start over.

[Karen Kilgariff]

God, that's a good magazine. Just filled with advice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It is actually a really fucking good magazine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's good. You're like, don't be sarcastic about Psychology Today even for one moment.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Talk to me that way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Dare you talk to my magazine that way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I got my mom a subscription that one year, being like, listen, can you get your together?

[Karen Kilgariff]

How about you read this?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Subtlety.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did she do it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, she loved it. I Don't think she understood. I don't think she is self aware enough to understand the messaging that it was pointed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Although she did text me. We got in a fight, like, a week ago, and I was pissed off at her. And I tweeted something like, the hardest job in the world is raising your mother. Thinking that knowing that she doesn't read Twitter. She's not on Twitter. My dad wrote back, you're telling me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I was like, you know, Marty, Marty, Marty.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But then when we were making up, like a couple days later, she wrote, and I know how hard it is to raise your mother. And I was like, oh, who's the leak?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you think Marty threw it in her face?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I think she saw it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You think she checks now? Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Shit. Yeah. But I can't imagine she listens to this podcast.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, if she does. Hey, Janet. What's up, girl? Hi, best friend. Remember when we partied in Chicago together? We had a good time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Where were we? Chicago. No, where were we?

[Karen Kilgariff]

We were Chicago, 2016. It was Christmas. Oh, my God. I'm sure we've talked about this on this podcast, but one of my favorite things that's ever happened to me is the night before our show, we got in.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In Chicago.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In Chicago, 2016, December, Christmas time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Got in. I'm there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

My sister Adrienne and Audrey, the four of us went out to try to eat something, but it was kind of late at night, so nothing. And it was freezing. It was like 50 degrees.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was windy. So everyone shut up. From everywhere else, it was all so windy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, 50. That's nothing. I'm from Alaska. We don't care.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, there was wind everywhere.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Listen, I'm on the North Pole. That's nothing. It's a narwhal.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When the other guy's like, what a dick. The other narwhal. Can we get a cartoon of a narwhal saying that? And another one going like, what a dick.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Shut up, you dick. Bye, Mr. Narwhal. I'm completely ripping that off from elf. Okay, but.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, state your sources. We go into a Walgreens and we all buy hats. That's how cold it is. We're California girls. We had no idea our layers weren't gonna work. So we start walking, just trying to find anywhere to eat. And we walk and we walk and it's freezing and we're, like, basically fighting the elements. And finally we're on a corner, and I turn to this girl that's standing Next to us on the corner. And I was like, hey, do you know any, like, even a diner anywhere at a restaurant that's open around here? And this girl, she was like in her probably mid-20s, maybe even a little older.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ew, maybe I'm a little older.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I just wait for this to come out of her mouth. She goes, I don't know. But you know what you can do? You could google it. But she wasn't being sarcastic. That's something my sister would say to me with so dripping with sarcasm, where I'd be like, oh, you really got me. But this girl thought she was giving us great advice. She was like, oh, oh. But you know what you could do? You could google it. I was like, oh my God, you're so right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Have you ever, have you ever said that to someone in a sarcastic way where it's like, someone will be like, you're like, here's my address to get to my house. And like, what's the cross street? And then you're like, I don't know, let me google it. And then you google it and tell them no. Have you ever done that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That specific exchange?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's mean. No, never mind.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're saying reverse it and be sarcastic.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I get you, yes. I've never done it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm positive I've. Well, I mean, like that's just saying, have you been a bitch in this certain way? Absolutely.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's a way to be a bitch. Have you done it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Uh huh. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That was you saying aha to me just now. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, even that was bitchy anywhere on that bitch color wheel. I've been there times. 20.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, it's a beautiful rainbow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I like it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's subtleties, there's shades. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, oftentimes it's necessary. Like the way I answered the girl who sincerely told me to google a restaurant and I was like, thank you. In a way where she's like, you're welcome, and walked away thinking she'd made a new friend. Where I was like, I just tried to stab you with my words. But okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Her brain was frozen. It was really cold. Her brain was frozen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She was probably shit faced. Shit faced and just really good at covering it up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, any.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you have any actual business?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. I met a couple murderinos at the Ryan Adams show over the weekend that were really nice.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cool.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That weren't like. That were really cool.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cool.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Shook hands like business people. Yeah, they were like, nice. Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, did you meet the executive of gm?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, we shook hands. I had A nice, strong, firm handshake. Had a glass of really expensive whiskey.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know what it. I would say the name of it if I knew what an expensive glass of whiskey was called. I don't know. McClellan's, 108.

[Karen Kilgariff]

McMoney's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

McMoney's. Do you have any business?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There was a woman in Australia, a Murderino, who went on to a game show no American's ever heard of, which makes this difficult because this doesn't stick. If somebody had texted us and said a murderino was on Jeopardy, right, we'd all have shat our pants and freaked out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But everyone in Australia is, like, shouting their pants and freaking out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And they're like, a murderino is on the chase. That's my accent.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What's it called? The Chase.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The Chase.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. It's called the Chase and I have it right here if we want to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What's her name again?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Natalie Krug.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. This is Natalie Cr. She's a contestant on the Chase.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You Natalie Krug. Listen, Murderinos, if you want to get above someone, beat this. I don't know. I'm kidding. I don't care.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Your personal motto is stay sexy and don't get murdered. So where does the motto come from? It's from a podcast.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm obsessed with true crime podcast.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And this is from my favorite.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, Murder. My parents. Two very funny ladies in California get together, talk about their favourite murder. Really, they were true crime nuts, and now they just chat about it and it's. They do their research.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Different show. Funny, slightly calm and sexy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Correct. Yay, Stephanie.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, that is so fucking surreal.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I can't believe it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Don't get mated. Mitted. How'd she say it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't get matted. No, no. And then everyone else. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Stay sexy. Don't get mated.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's so cool.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's amazing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so wild.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you so much, Natalie. Crap.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck. I called her Stephanie.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did you?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. I'll edit it out. Thanks, Natalie. I'm like, it's so crazy. We love our fans. Stephanie. Stephanie.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You mean the world to me, Stephanie.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No one's gonna prevent more of me. Can you give me a clean Natalie and I can just punch it in? Natalie.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Natalie. Do you have Pee Wee herman from aging? Mr. Herman.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mr. Herman. Oh, do the thing. Do the. Do the thing. I. Oh, yeah. Whenever there's someone talks about corn, I always say, can you say maize? And then Karen fucking blows it up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

By saying, this is Paco and his wife Are Nairs. That one?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's no basement in the Alamo, either one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But the first one is better because it's like. It's really obscure. You know what I mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, the first time I said it, we are. Yes, we are quoting Pee Wee's Big Adventure. And the first time I did it, the delight in Georgia's face that I also knew a line from Pee Wee's Big Adventure to the. Like, to know where it went in the scene was. You were thrilled.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But everyone, like, everyone knows the line I was saying everyone knows a thing in the Alamo. But then you took this obscure line and said it perfectly to something I've been saying forever, which is. Can you see. Is it. Can you say maze? And then I was just like, wee. Like, it was like I was being pushed in a. Like a shopping cart all of a sudden, you know, just like, this is so cool.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, and also, I think I explained this to you, but my friend Jennifer Gehring and I. Who is my lifelong friend, I haven't seen her forever because she lives in D.C. i'm sure she doesn't listen to this, but. Hi, Jen. I love you if she does, but we grew up together. Our families were friends, so our parents would hang out together and, like, get together. And then Jennifer and I were just the two youngest, so we would pair off and go have fun. But she's the greatest. Like, we saw Raiders of the Lost Ark in the theater together. Like, all of my. All of those major moments of childhood I had with Jennifer Gearing. And of course, we saw Pee Wee's Big Adventure in the theater together. And so we just spoke in movie quotes constantly. So we would just. When we were bored or there was nothing else happening. Kids, this is before social media. What you did was just say movie quotes back and forth to each other like lunatics.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's how my brother and I have communicated. Like we hated each other. And then the Simpsons started happening and Married with Children. And then, like, since then, he and I have never had a conversation that isn't a quote from one of those two. Like, we just.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Monterey. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. We just can't do that. We have, like, a secret handshake. Yeah. That's from group family therapy, though. But we have this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that's real. I thought you meant the Simpsons quotes were the secret.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The secret handshake is from when we had a goat to family therapy. Wow. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It actually. Yeah. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was great because we made up a secret handshake, and then we hated the therapist together and everything was fine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then you had, like, comedy bonded you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sweet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What were we talking about?

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're talking about Natalie.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Murder. Stay sexy. Don't get murdered.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There it is. Hey. Technically, it's my birthday today, Georgia.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not till Thursday, but when people hear it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Happy birthday to you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You guys are good podcasters.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Happy birthday.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, thank you. Thank you. Oh, Elvis is leaving.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Elvis.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was my best version.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you, guys. So rude.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Elvis, happy birthday. What's your birthday resolution for the coming year for you as you're in this new.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Live it. Love it. Yes. Learn it right. Learn to levitate.

[Karen Kilgariff]

F. You're on fire.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There it is. What if I did all of those things?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That would be such a waste for a podcast. I'd be like, you guys, I swear to God, she's levitating right now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I promise. That's all our business. Right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then some.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then some actually. And it was none of your business.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And this was the none of your business corner. So should we talk about murder? Are there any shows we didn't watch?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, I'll tell you what.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Tell me what?

[Karen Kilgariff]

What's. I have done quite a bit of binge watching as my hair was getting greasy and I had to go to the store with my split P. Anderson's hat on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hell yeah, girl.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thanks.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love that little thanks.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's my little fake than. Do you want more pillows?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I have all of them. I have four pillows and you have one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, thanks. Thanks. Wait, what was I telling you? Oh, okay. So I was digging deep on Netflix because, I mean, God bless all of you for still making suggestions and tweeting suggestions at me, but there's people who are tweeting things like, have you seen Luther girl? The girl that tweeted at me, have you seen Luther girl? Yes. Like, yes, I've seen fucking Luther.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I haven't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You've never seen Luther? Oh, shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I haven't seen a lot of stuff.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I really. Do you care for Idris Elba at all?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, of course. I care for him deeply.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, then you need to get into that. It's an amazing, amazing thing. Well, so I was trying to go a little more obscure, and there is a show called Murder Book that I have.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I like that one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. It's the one guy, right, that's on it. Yeah. No, it's not. A murder book is what they call a thing about the case.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So it's almost kind of a cold case thing, but they just call it something different.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cause it ends up being about cold cases because they go back to the murder book.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love the opening sequence of that. Isn't it creepy?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. You know why I think it's creepy? Because I think it's models. It's all those files.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If you're listening, please watch the show. It's very well done and it tells real good stories of true crimes, cold cases, whatever. But it's just produced really well.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And they have a lot of the people who really worked the case.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It reminds me of the detective one that we were talking about on Netflix.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Real detectives.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Real detectives. Weren't you watching one about the occult that I tried to watch for three minutes and couldn't get into it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know why? Okay, that's occult crimes. And I think it's because it's produced. I think a French company produces it because they have a lot of French talking heads that then are dubbed over. So you see their mouths moving, but then there's just a voice coming from nowhere that's talking over them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think it's more that. I don't think occult crimes are stupid.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I really do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's the same thing with like ghost hunters. It's like, well, the occult isn't a thing. It's crazy people making it up. So I don't care.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know what I mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Although I love the occult. I really do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What part of it do you love?

[Karen Kilgariff]

The mystery outfits, Grown up goths.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like convincing crazy people to do insane things at their bidding. What is the bad part of what you just said? It's so good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

People do it. That's the thing, you know?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's just not for you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I guess it's almost like it's the same thing too, where it's like there's something. I really like that idea if you take the occult part out. So like Jonestown I think is cool because it's this bigger than life person who was able to convince all these people to do things for him or to do, you know. The same thing with. Manson's interesting too, because he was able to convince all these people to do things and it's like, but you're playing cults.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love Satan too, and Satan's real. And it's like, no, he's fucking not. And then I get struck by a bolt of lightning. How funny would that be?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Smoke just starts coming up from behind the Couch.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was so weird. Georgia in her apartment, just got struck.

[Karen Kilgariff]

By lightning, ranting and ranting about how Satan isn't real until he was forced to show up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mimi got on her hind legs, her eyes rolled back into her head, and she started.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She was like, I will take you to the dark place.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Now say a Mimi. Hear me roar. Mimi.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mimi. You were so cute.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so funny because you'd picture her with, like, a girly voice. She actually has a very deep satanic voice voice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then Elvis is like, I told you, she. This whole time, I was trying to warn you guys that she sucked.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It sounded like you wanted Elvis to have a New York accent. Like I told you. Fucking told you. Guys.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This has gotten way off track.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Skippers, come back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This was fun.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, because we were talking about. A lot of people actually recommended Occult Crimes. That's how I found out about it, is because people were recommending. I'm sorry that I shit on the girl that recommended Luther. I adore you for tweeting at me. I didn't mean to do that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She should have tweeted at me, because I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I just ended up putting IKEA furniture together last night and watching Kimmy Schmidt, which is pretty nice.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So good. I love that show.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I do, too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I really love it. It's so goddamn packed full of jokes. So good, brilliantly written. And also, it's akin to Bob's Burgers in that when you watch it, if you were in a bad, low place, it's up, up, up. It makes you feel happy. So hilarious. Titus Andronicus should be the president of the United States of America.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I would be so happy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It would be so much better.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, so, all right. Girlfriends who are playing this podcast for their boyfriends on a road trip, and we're like, no, you're gonna love this podcast. Come back to us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I agree. Okay. Boyfriends who are like, to their girlfriends. I was also sexist. What I just said. This is the best part. Get ready for the boring part.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, here comes the boring part. The point of all of it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Who's going first today?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's you, I think.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is it me? Yeah. Karen's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I was right about number 72. I am fucking on this shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, the problem is Mimi's entire body weight is on my story. Okay, Sorry, go ahead.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She looks so shocked. She's like, how dare you pull your story out from under my body?

[Georgia Hardstark]

And we're back.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did your mom like that Psychology Today subscription?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did she use it my passive aggressive Psychology Today subscription Just a little. I think she did. Yeah. Without understanding it. Have you seen that meme that's like they show this video of you being this beautiful girl and it's like you're the kind of girl they write books about. And then it flashes to the DSM.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's a bunch of those on TikTok that are like, I'm so excited for my sister today. And then it's like some horrible thing. It's like slut celebration or whatever it is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Some troll day.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, Troll garbage rat day. I highly recommend Psychology Today still though, it's like such a. It was such a good magazine to like crack the surface of those little things that you want to understand about yourself. Yeah, it's really great for that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. If you're too scared to go to therapy, that's also pick up one of those magazines. Wait, do you remember your birthday from 2017 when you turned 37?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I'm not specifically, but I'm guessing because we had just moved into the pod loft and I'm the kind of person who takes advantage of amenities that. It was in the pool. Like I had a pool party, remember?

[Karen Kilgariff]

You did. I was there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. There was a photo.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You had a cake with your picture on it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. I have photos.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There was hot dogs. It was boiling fucking hot. We were in that side air conditioned room.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I got to hang out with your sister a little bit. That's the first time I ever met her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. And my nephew was just like a baby.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He was a baby on her hip.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was a fun party. It was really good. That apartment pool was literally jam packed with people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. Always busy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was hilarious how many people were in that pool.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But it was very fun.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. I had a lot of good birthdays there. And it was fun. Like. Yeah. Going to a public pool is always fun. People watching. And the apartment, I mean, I still have a key to that apartment building. If we need to go to the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Pool, go in there and go through someone's mail. Pick up there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't remember the girl on the Australian game show the Chase.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I totally remember her because.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You do?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. It was like a Jeopardy type situation.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like that's what it looked like. I totally remember that. And it was like a. Yeah, like presented as like Jeopardy. Would be. And she said that we're just so lucky.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our Australian listeners are the best. And we're so lucky to have such a strong contingent down there and strong and mighty and vocal and the kind of people who would do that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it's so funny. Like, Australia has always been very supportive. What? Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's great. I love it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We gotta go back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's get into Georgia's story about the interstate killer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The holidays go by fast. Halls get decked. Gifts get open. But what stays are the memories.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Turn those moments into something that lasts with the gift of Aura Frames.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Aura Frames turns your photos into a meaningful gift, perfect for family or friends.

[Karen Kilgariff]

With the Aura app, it's easy to add as many photos or short videos as you want. Just connect to wifi and they'll appear instantly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And every Aura frame comes in a beautiful premium box with no price tag. So it's ready to go straight under the tree.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You can't wrap togetherness, but you can frame it with Aura Frames.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love my Aura frame. I've given so many away. But the one I have every year comes out at a big family holiday party. It's got pictures from like the 70s through now of holiday parties and the past two years of the holiday parties I've had at my house, it's just become a tradition. We put it out in the kitchen. Everyone oohs and ahs over it and like takes pictures to add for next year. The fucking perfect gift.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They really are the best. And for a limited time, visit or frames.com and get $45 off or as best selling Carver mat frames named number one by Wirecutter by using promo code MFM at checkout.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's a U R A frames.com promo code MFM.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This exclusive black Friday Cyber Monday deal is their best of the year, so order now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Before it ends, support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. Goodbye. Taking care of our mental health usually ends up at the bottom of the to do list.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's somewhere between cleaning out the junk drawer and going to the post office. So basically it isn't going to happen.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But Talkspace makes it easy to fit therapy into your life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Talkspace is the number one rated online therapy provider bringing you professional support from licensed therapists and psychiatrists that you can access anytime, anywhere.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Talkspace is also in network. It's covered by most insurers and most insured members pay a copay of $0.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Talkspace is affordable even if you pay out of pocket. Part of the mission of Talk is to provide quality care that's accessible and affordable. Whether or not you're insured.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You can switch providers at no extra cost. So you'll be sure to find a licensed provider that fits your needs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Here's why I love Talkspace. Because they're making it actually affordable for people in 2025. Very important these days.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We need it the most now and we can't afford it the most now. So let's fucking do it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, let's get it all covered by our insurance and then let's get some therapy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

As a listener of this podcast, you'll get $80 off your first month with Talkspace when you go to talkspace.com mfm and enter promo co code SPACE80.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's S, P, A, C, E80. To match with the licensed therapist today, go to talkspace.com mFM and enter promo code SPACE80.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Every holiday season, we find ourselves shopping for men who say they don't need anything. But have you seen his wallet lately?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ridge makes wallets that are sleek, strong and grown up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ridge wallets are slim and modern, holding up to 12 cards with extra room for cash.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They're made with premium materials like aluminum, titanium and carbon fiber.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And with the airtag attachment, he'll know exactly where his wallet is is Ridge.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Isn'T just about wallets. They create premium everyday carry essentials like key cases, suitcases and rings, all built with the same sleek, durable design.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No matter what you pick, Ridge has free shipping, a 99 day risk free trial, and a lifetime warranty on all their products.

[Georgia Hardstark]

For a limited time, our listeners get 10% off at Ridge by using Code Murder at checkout.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just head to ridge.com and use code Murder and you're all set.

[Georgia Hardstark]

After you purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them our show sent you. Goodbye. This is the Highway Killer or the Interstate Killer. Now this is a serial killer that I had never heard of. I've seen this photo before, but I've never heard of him. And I found the, like, pretty straightforward story of like, he killed this person, then he killed this person, then he killed this. You know, like the story. And it was so devoid of any details that when I started looking into it and suddenly it's like, no, this was way fucking bigger than you thought it was. So we're kind of learning this together.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can I guess which state it took place in?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Texas.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You were wrong because it took place in a lot of states. Oh, yes, I see.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You tell me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, I will. You don't want to make it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm not gonna guess the whole story. I thought I should, but Now I.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don'T want to just guess, guess, guess, guess. Okay. From 1982 until 1984, a serial killer was killing young men. He was dubbed the Interstate Killer because his victims were mostly random hitchhikers. 20 to 23 were dead before he was caught. The victims were stabbed and bodies were found in parts of Indiana, Illinois, Kentucky and Wisconsin.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So the first.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I really thought I knew this and I do not know it at all.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know his face. This is crazy. So Jay Reynolds was the first victim. He was found on March 22, 1982. He was found stabbed to death on the outskirts of Lexington, Kentucky. And all of these, okay. Nine months later on October 3rd, 14 year old Delvoid Baker was strangled. His body was dumped on the roadside of North. Roadside north of Indianapolis. Then Stephen Crockett, who was 19 on October 23rd was stabbed 32 times. Four of those wounds were to the head discarded outside Lowell, Indiana. So then the killer goes to Illinois and on November 6, he leaves the body of Robert Foley in a field northwest of Joliet. Joliet?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Mm.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Law enforcement is like, oh, there's a pattern, right? Assaults on young men, which back then we know wasn't something that looked very deep. Like if you look at any of these interstate killings of young men, not looked into very deeply. So stabbing and strangulation are present in every case. So then on Christmas of 1982, 25 year old John Johnson's body is found dumped in a field outside Belshaw, Indiana. Three days later, 21 year old John Roach is discovered near Belleville. And then the bound body of 23 year old car wash employee from Terre Haute. His name is Stephen again a G A N agan. Stephen Agen. He'd been stabbed to death and discarded north of Newport, Indiana. So then on June 6, 1983, an anonymous caller tells cops that he knows who the Interstate Killer is. He says that someone he knew had been picked up and attacked by the killer and had played dead after being assaulte. And so he knows who the person was. The man's name was Larry Eller. Sorry, Larry Eller. And he's arrested. Can I say his name correctly? When you step it that out? Stephen that out. His name is. Could you Steven that out? That's a new thing. So leave that all in just for that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So actually leave that in.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Holy shit. Stephen that out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Stephen that out. Please.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I just ruined this. The man's name is Larry Eller and he is arrested it. Okay, let's talk about Larry Eller. He's born in Crawfordsville, Indiana, on December 21, 1952. By the time he was a teen, his mother had married and divorced four times.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that's too many.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's too many. He. I mean, that's fine for, like, what.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So, like, every three years? Yeah, I was trying to do the math.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He attends Catholic schools, has some difficulty. At 10 years old, he sent to the Riley Child Guidance Clinic in Indiana. Indiana. Where psychologists or psychological tests reveal normal intelligence but extreme insecurity and great fear of separation and abandonment. The staff of the clinic said that his home environment was unstable and chaotic and recommend that he be sent to live elsewhere. So at the age of 12, he went to live in a Catholic boy's home.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know. Where he stayed for five months.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Little did they know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Little or did they know? It was later said by a forensic psychiatrist that his history was one of the worst cases of child abuse he had seen in 20 years in the field.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So there's not a lot of details about it, but they, like, hint at things, but they don't go too deep into it. Like, you can't find details. Except for one thing about one of his stepdads would pour hot water on his head when he was, like, mad at him. It's just like, that's, you know, and that's horrible. But there wasn't a lot of other information about it. So he dropped out of high school in his senior year, worked odd jobs for a couple years, and not long after leaving high school, he joined the monastery, and then he quit the monastery. So Larry Eller is struggling all his life to cope with what turns out to be his homosexuality. So he was simultaneously fascinated and repelled by it. He hated himself for it, but he couldn't help himself.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I bet the Catholic Boy's Home did a lot of good for that issue.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I bet you're right. That was all sarcasm.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was total sarcasm.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So he killed his first victim at around 30 years old. Larry was arrested for the assault that the anonymous caller had called in, but the case was dropped when Eiler gave the victim money. And the victim was like. Like, fine, I'm out of here. Which is totally understandable. You don't want to relieve this whole trauma for no reason.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The bodies of young men then continued to be found throughout the spring of 1993, with most of the action shifting to Illinois. By July 2, the body count stood at 12. Some of the victims had been mutilated after death, and a few had been disemboweled. Whoa. Yeah. The 13th victim was Ralph Khaleesi, and he was found on August 31st, dumped in a field near Lake Forest, Illinois. He had been dead less than 12 hours when he disappeared and was discovered he was bound with clothesline and a surgical tape, stabbed 17 times, and his pants were pulled down around his ankles. Then on October 30, 1983, in Indiana, a highway patrolman spotted a pickup truck parked along the interstate. Two men were walking towards a bunch of trees. He stops them. One was bound. And when the officer went to investigate, he identifies Larry Iler as the owner of the truck.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So the cop catches him as he's about to lead someone into the forest, already tied.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And the guy says, he told me he'd give me money, you know, for. For sex. He asked if he could tie me up, and we were walking out towards the field.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So the guy at that point was actually. It's voluntary because he thinks, oh, I'm just gonna get paid and I'm fine to do this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. So then when the officer searches the truck, he finds surgical tape, clothesline, and a hunting knife that's stained with blood. So Eyler is taken in for questioning, and when the forensic experts check the blood, they match it with that of Khaleesi, who had been found previously. They were also able to match the tire tracks left at the Khaleesi site with that of Eyler's truck. And police were like, this is enough to put him behind bars. But they let him go while they continued the investigation.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. They can't just hold him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So while the investigation continued in the Khaleesi murder, Iler is set free. Then on October 4, 1983, 14 year old Derek Hansen is found dismembered near Kenahosha, Wisconsin.

[Karen Kilgariff]

KENOSHA.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry. 14.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A lot of young, young kids. 11 days later, a young John Doe is discovered near Reynalcier, Indiana.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That one I don't know. I only know Kenosha because my friend grew up right near it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, that was a good one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So I've heard him say it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Rensselaer. Rensselaer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Spell it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

R, E, N, S, S E, L.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A, E, R. I got lost at the two S's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Rensselaar lair. Rensselaer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is it bear?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I got that one wrong. That was not my. What was it? Baxter?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It looks like it's spelled with an X in the middle, and everyone's like, it's pronounced bear. Well, you're just changing the rules of reading.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Then you're actually. You're wrong. It's not last week.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Why don't you call the mayor and tell them that he's wrong?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, guess what? I am the mayor. I just made myself the mayor.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's just off a mask and revealed that she is, in fact, the mayor.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's true. Okay, okay. Almost two weeks later, another John Doe is found near Effingham, Illinois. And two other victims, Richard Wayne and another unidentified male were found dead outside of Indianapolis. Then October 18, 1983, a couple is hunting for mushrooms at an abandoned Indiana farm. Hanging out. They're like, we found mushrooms here before. Let's get some more. Right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. For either for a salad or to trip out all day long. Whatever this couple is into is their business.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's their business. They've been there before. They're not there to hurt anyone. But they are there to find two skulls lying near a dilapidated barn.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No. So we can at least assume that they were stoned on pot. If they're out looking for mushrooms and.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They'Re freaking out, man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then they stumble upon, like, remains. That's awful.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Those poor hippies.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Then actually turns out that they're also businessmen.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, turns out they're the murderers. No, no, I'm kidding.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So many twists.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They're also businessmen. Murderers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God. Finally.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's the area I want to. I want to go into.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's all of it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I want the murders that happen inside of the Enron building.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They think. I mean.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, they could have.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There has to be at least one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There has to. There were so many people in that building.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Everyone was like. Like on a lot of pressure. Y. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They had to either sell or buy or depend their business that sell, buy or kill.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sell, buy, or kill. On lifetime. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, write it down.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What about a grocery one called Sell by Dead?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, like a Sell by date.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sell by date.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then it's like, sell by colon. Dead.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Dead.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I love it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, we can keep working on that one, but the other one about Enron is perfect.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It sold. They sold it already. Great. Okay. There's an abandoned Indiana farm. They find two skulls lying together north of the barn off U.S. highway 41, just across the Illinois state line in Newton County. Way to go, Newton County.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. How simple you are to pronounce and read.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you. I'm only doing murders from places that are just one syllable. Well, it's two syllables. Just town. Something. Town.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No X's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nothing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No double S's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mm. Mm. When police get to the scene. They then find two other bodies.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Whoa. Near that barn.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mm. Fuck. One of the victims had been decapitated and all had had their pants pulled down and they had been stabbed to death. Two of the victims were identified. Michael Bauer, which is my friend's ex boyfriend's name. He was a 23 year old pizza deliverer. Last seen taking out the trash at his parents Portage park home, which. What a fucking bummer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And John Bartlett, who's 19, who was staying with his sister in Chicago after being discharged from the army. By this time, police were like, this is clearly Larry Iler. They fucking knew it was him. Another victim who had survived his attack, identified photographs of Eyler and another survivor came in and was like, yep, happened to me too. But the investigators wanted him for homicide, so their circumstantial evidence was still incomplete. So they wouldn't arrest him. Yep. So Larry Iler at this point is under constant surveillance in Chicago. And because of this, he files a suit against the Lake County Sheriff's office accusing them of mounting a, quote, psychological welfare. Nope. Psychological warfare. Not welfare. That'd be a good thing. Campaign to unhinge his mind, Right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's what they do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's what all the police are trying to do to this one guy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Who happens to also be a child molesting murderer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

His claim for half a million dollars is denied.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. He's not the victim in this scenario. No. Turns out. And as he's leaving the courtroom, Iler is arrested for Ralph Khaleesi's murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow, that's sweet ass timing on those police police people's part. They were just like, oh, yeah, you want to go in and try to. You want to try to sue the city? Okay, go ahead. We'll meet you out here.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't get too stoked yet though, Karen. Yeah, he's held in lieu of a million dollars in bond. But in the pre trial hearing, February 5, 1984, all the evidence recovered from Eiler's truck the night they found him with the guy who was bound gets excluded.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Why?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because the night that they found him in the truck, they held him without arrest in the jail for over 12 hours, which you're not allowed to do. You have to have a reason to hold him there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like arresting him. So he's released on bail. I know. It's a real bummer, man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's crazy. It's crazy when it happens, when it's a serial killer. This isn't a shoplifter. It's not like someone rights were slightly stepped on, who was, you know, like a slumlord or something. Bad, very bad. But this is a person who is out a predator that's intentionally killing innocent people every day.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, here's what gets even worse is now he goes on to kill a bunch of people after this. Right. Because they couldn't hold him. Right. So on May 7, 1984, 22 year old David Block was found murdered near Zion, Illinois. His wounded also was the pattern of everyone else who had been killed already. Okay, so then August 21, 1984, a janitor of an apartment house in Chicago goes to take out the garbage and empty the garbage can. And they're overflowing with gray bags. Like nice gray trash bags. And this guy, his last name is Bala, he's like, those trash bags aren't what my tenants use. My tenants use cheaper bags. He knew they weren't his tenants because they were nice trash bags. And he was like, my tenants are pieces of shit. They don't buy this stuff. They don't buy hefty. They buy fucking 99 cent store shit. So it made him suspicious and he says, quote, I was very pissed off a little bit. So I opened one up, ripped it open. I was very curious, what the hell am I throwing out? He says, can you imagine what his accent sounded like?

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is Chicago, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is a Chicago janitor. Yeah, like building manager guy. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Who gets pissed about garbage.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. What am I throwing out? I just wanna know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I just wanna know. You putting your garbage in here. I wanna know the accent.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I can't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Stephen, what's the accent for?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sure do Chicago. Hey, I'm throwing at the garbage here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well done.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Get angry though. I'm throwing at the fucking garbage here. I don't know. I don't know. Steven.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That out that turned over into triple Chicago. That was amazing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's just like harder accent is angrier.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So of course he's opening the bags and guess what? A leg slips out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Falls to the ground. Yeah. So eight within eight bags are the remains of 15 or 16. I can't tell. You're old. Hustler Danny bridges. He's like 15 or 16. He's a child sex worker hustler. You know the streets of Chicago back then. Can you imagine seeing a 15 year old like working the streets and stuff in the 80s?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Probably the 90s too. Let's be honest.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I can't believe right up till today.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, so Danny Bridges is a known sex worker by Chicago Police special Investigations Unit. They had been established to combat child pornography and the sex abuse of children. And they actually had worked with Danny to get his story to people who were advocating for teen sex workers. So there's a couple channels doing news stories, I guess. There's video of him talking to them, like, doing news stories. I can't find them. And I would fucking love to see them. This kid looks so, like. He just looks like he's. He knows too much about life, so.

[Karen Kilgariff]

15 years old.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's a freshman in high school.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, he never, like. I don't think he goes to school at this point.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, but I mean, just the equation of, like, if he had rich parents, if he grew up in Evanston.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And was, you know, had a little Izod sweater on and was listening to fucking. The Specials.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There we go.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Topsiders. Mimi, be quiet.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So he was warned by the Chicago Special Police to stay away from this guy from Eller. Everyone is like, stay the fuck away from this guy. We're trying to get him. He's a murderer of people. You know, stay away from him. Okay. But later, one member of the Special Investigations Unit acknowledged in the book what Cops Know by Connie Fletcher, that the unit encouraged child prostitutes to have sex with adults in order to make arrest. As in, they would set them up like a sting operation.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which I know is super inflammatory, but it's in this book. I didn't say it. The quote.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, that was basically the practice was, they're using these children as bait so they can get these bad guys. It's the only way they can actually lure them out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They can't use legal people to do it, even though it was completely.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But ethically, they should be using evidence that's not putting a child at risk. You know what I mean? That's the, like. Yeah. I guess. Even if it was, like, someone who was of age and they were working with the police for some reason, but this is just, like, so dark and deep.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, these days, they would just use people who are looking. It would be a 21 Jump street sex worker Edition.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. So he said the. The quote from the SIU investigator says, our opinion is that you should go out and find the crime. What better way to prove. And have him. What better way to prove the crime than to get it in progress or to follow someone home and have him go to bed with a kid, is what this guy said in this book.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. 82, 84.

[Georgia Hardstark]

80. This was. This book was written in 91.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know. So it seems that they acknowledged that the unit encouraged child sex workers to have sex with adults in order to make arrests.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So. And also, Danny Bridges was needed to testify in pending child pornography trials. So this kid was, like, deep in it, and he gets killed. So in one of the NBC videos, a Reporter asks in 1984, asks Danny Bridges about Iler, and he says, yeah, I knew him. He was a real freak. He used to come around uptown and hang around. So this kid, Danny Bridges, knows about Eyler, and the question then is, why would he go home with him him if he already knew he was a creep? So Danny Bridges is going to get into a car with a guy that he knows is a creep? No. Unless maybe he was doing it for the police.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is kind of the question, right? Which is one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. It's like, literally live bait, like, worst case scenario.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it was never. I mean, this is just like, something I found in a bunch of little articles which I'll name at the end of this. So perhaps the whole thing was a sting that went wrong because Dani did get killed. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How the fuck does that happen? Like, you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So that's the craziest version of that story. Where does it happen? Like, if the cops were using him as bait, then what excuse in the world could they have to then somehow lose track of him? You know what I mean? Like, that would be the only. If you're letting a child get into the car with a known serial killer. You can't, like, oh, whoops, they took a wrong turn. I mean, like, that's insanity.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, here's the other part of this that gets in here somewhere is that they think that Larry Eiler might have had an accomplice.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because Danny's fingerprints were never found on Larry Eiler's car. So maybe someone else picked him up, brought him back there. Wow. I know. It's really complicated. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But also, usually isn't that rare that serial killers would have, like, have an accomplice or work with someone else?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I would think so, but who knows? I mean, I'll ask. What'd you ask?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'll ask my friend. I'll ask my friend at the FBI.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Would you ask your accomplice, your serial killer accomplice?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'll ask my boss.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's the guy you're working with to kill people? Okay, so witnesses, you know, after they find the body parts in the garbage bags, witnesses say they saw a man who lived next door put the bags in the trash, and he is Eylar, who's 31 years old at this time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So he just took the garbage to the place next door during the day. He wanted to get caught or he.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Was just really stupid. So Larry Eiler is convicted of murder of Danny Bridges. And my Lord, she's being real.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's all over the map.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. He's convicted of murder and aggravated kidnapping of Danny bridges. And on October 3, 1986, he's sentenced to die. Then in November of 1990, he's bargaining to save himself from execution. He agrees to help Indiana authorities solve a number of his crimes. If they are would get him off death row. So he confesses to the killing of the agan, torture, slaying and surprised investigators by naming an alleged accomplice. Accomplish. I keep saying words wrong today. I don't know what's going on with me today. I'm having a stroke.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's all right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Accomplice. So 53 year old Robert David Little, he's the chairman of the department of library science at Indiana State University. And this murder is of Aegon. Happens when he's staying with Larry as a guest. And according to Eyler, Little took the photos and masturbated while Larry disemboweled the victim.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So he's like, let's pick up boys. You do this, I'll do that. So he's like part of it and it's kind of his. Like this guy Dr. Little is like his sugar daddy. He's like paying for his places to live. He used to be a student of Dr. Little and they're like working together.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What the fuck?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it's some real twisted shit that they better fucking make a movie out of because.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He'S a professor of library science. So there's like a real. That you could make that a super creepy in the stacks style murder story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Who would play him? I'm already wondering. I mean, are you watching Fargo? And how amazing. What's his name is Ewan McGregor. Oh my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But the woman, I don't know her name offhand.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Who's also in the leftovers. Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's amazing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's so good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

These two characters are so different. I am loving Mary Stewart something or other.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not Masterson Mary Stewart Little.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, Mary Beth.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mary Beth. Mary Macbeth.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's Mary Macbeth from the play.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I am loving the young hot girl though. Are you caught up?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. You mean the one she's playing who's also playing the sheriff?

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's not her, the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or the police chief.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean the girl with the short black hair.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's that's the Ewan McGregor's. The dumpy brother's girlfriend is the same as the Chief.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hold the up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, no, wait.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm the one that gets to tell you this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I told this to Vince, and he's like, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, the Vince is straight up wrong.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. Yes. I mean, I almost yelled at Steven. Vince. Vince, we're getting a divorce. Steven, is this true? Mary Elizabeth Winstead.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is that who you're thinking of? Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She playing both characters? It doesn't say on the main Wikipedia page, but if we go deeper, we go deeper. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Who's that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She plays.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm telling you, eyeliner.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nikki. Nikki Swango.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nikki Swan goes the girlfriend. That's rock and roll.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And she plays her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The Chief. She's the Chief.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And Wikipedia is failing me, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm looking at mtv. I am so mad at you, Steven.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're gonna get Stevened out of here. You.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Everything you have to say from now on is in a Chicago accent.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, no. IMDb. Fargo, season three.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm gonna have to put this on pause.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Season three. If I get this before you, Stephen, you're fired.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, he's trying to hold a microphone and then do it with one finger.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, that's his problem. Okay. All right. Okay, here we go. No, I think you're wrong.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Carrie Coon is the Chief. What? Yep.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's two different actresses.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mary Elizabeth something. God, I thought so. Mary Elizabeth Winstead.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Mary Elizabeth Winstead's only the girlfriend.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mm.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I've had so many conversations about how amazing, including with me, because I was like, uh, huh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I agreed with you a couple weeks ago.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They look so much alike.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I asked Vince, who was the same person, too. Cause I agree.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We always have to believe Vince now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Why? Yes, That's. He's never wrong.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's never wrong.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Never.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He also doesn't say shit like I do, where I'm like, no, I'm positive. And I'm like, oh, you're right. I'm wrong. I do that shit all the time. Well, I also.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I listen. Look, look, and listen. You said that she plays two characters, and I didn't want to be like, I think you're wrong. So I was like, oh, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, you always gotta say, if think I'm wrong. It happens a lot.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Have you tried telling yourself, telling you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That you think you're wrong if you're confused?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't like arguing. No, no. I just think I don't like. I would rather assume that I'm wrong. Because I usually am.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What was that thing I said the other day? The cockles of your heart?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hackles.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I said cockles?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. No, again, you said something about raises your. I don't want to get my. You said something about the.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I said, I don't want my.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You said something about the cockles. You don't want to get your cockles up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And. But it was hackles.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is why I don't argue when people tell me a thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know, but I feel like, okay, well, I would also. When I'm positive about something, it almost changes the fact I get so positive. I believe you. We're exactly the same way. I believe you do this the same thing where it's like, oh, no, no, no. Look it up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Like, let's wait until you see this that I'm right. I don't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But here's the thing. This happens all the time in casting. Why are you casting two women who look ex. All I thought was that the police chief woman just had less eyeliner and a different haircut. And I'm like, this is brilliant. That they're making her look a little bit older simply by.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not because the brothers are the same person. So why couldn't this be that, too?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I thought it was. I thought it was like a theme.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I did, too. I did, too. I think I stopped thinking that when Vince said no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I would have doubled down.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I think she is killing it. So who do you think is killing it then?

[Karen Kilgariff]

The chief. I love the chief.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think now the girlfriend Mary Elizabeth is fucking, it's suddenly about her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I fucking am. Like, at first I was like, what's this peripheral character? And now it's about her and I fucking love her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, she's. I think I like them both a lot, but I did, too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But I'm. I wasn't. I knew that this. The other Carrie was good in the leftovers, so I wasn't worried about that. But this chick is awesome.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm glad she was in. I just think she's. Now I think she's bad. No, I'm just kidding. I just thought that it was this amazing job of. When you are the kind of girl that dresses rock and roll like the. Like the hot girlfriend, you have a kind of aura about you that looks like that. And when you are a woman that is just trying to fucking get some shit done and have people listen to you, you look like Carrie Coon, which is kind of an all business haircut and not a lot of makeup and not a lot of that and a lot of just, like, I'm not trying to do anything. And it seemed like this perfect presentation of, like, what you do with your womanly attractiveness based on the job you have or based on what you're trying to get done with your job.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it's this thing, too. Of like, you can either use the fact that you're hot or pretty or you cannot, but the one way isn't better than the other.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly. Right. They're both. It's up to you in both ways. And they're both very effective. I just loved that presentation. I'm like, I was giving it so much fucking credit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You need to call a couple people you were at parties with so mad right now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Of, like, me holding forth on what it means, you know, philosophically and representationally of the woman's role or whatever. I wonder how many people, different actress.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Have, have argued your point once they believed you at parties or whatever.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's not act like I go to a bunch of parties. I haven't talked to anybody but the two of you in, like a month.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Those Hollywood parties and our therapist.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that's right. I just tried to tell her therapist.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She has been in. Oh, she was in Scott Pilgrim. Okay. She's cute. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, Rock and roll girl. Was the girlfriend in Scott Pilgrim?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And she was in 10 Cloverfield Lane.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Army man. Okay. She's been in some cool.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What about Carrie Coon?

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's been.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's from the Leftovers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's from the Leftovers. Isn't that enough for you?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's plenty of. See, here she is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Should we be doing more Wikipedia or should you finish your story?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I'm not done. I thought I was done. God damn it. I don't want to keep going. Listen, he's a fucking asshole. He died of aids.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, really? He dies of AIDS again? Sorry. That was the end of the fucking story. I'm almost done. He has a guy who does it with him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's the darkest. I feel like that's the darkest. That's probably why we just took a serious left turn. We just touched into the darkest area possible, which is serial A team serial killer situation.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, fuck that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also against children.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally. Yeah, totally. So, based on his confession, Larry eiler receives a 60 year prison sentence on top of what he's been going on through. In return, he agrees to testify against Dr. Little, who's arrested on the murder charges. And in the absence of physical evidence to support Eiler's statement. Little is acquitted of all charges in 1991. So, okay. Later, Larry Eiler's attorney finds out that Dr. Little had been paying for Larry Eiler's defense. So Larry's testifying against Dr. Little for the prosecution, but has a financial relationship with the prosecution's lead witness and a legal duty to his client. And it's all crazy fucked up. So that shouldn't have happened. However, okay, back in Illinois.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But it happened anyway.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Basically, it did, but they didn't figure that out until a long time later back in Illinois. Larry offers to clear 20 murders in exchange for commutation of his sentence to life imprisonment. The state authorities say no. And then I wrote dicks because there were more murders going on after Larry Eilers was put into prison that were very similar to what was going on when he was killing people.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Was it Dr. Library Little?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was someone else who worked in a similar manner. And Larry Eilers is like, yo, I'll tell you everything and I'll put all of this to bed if you just don't kill me. And this guy who was like, this was the new something District Attorney. Thank you. And he was like, no. We put him. Jack o'. Malley, he was the Cook county state attorney. He could keep Eiler in jail for the rest of his life, solve more than 20 old murders, help bring to justice the killer or killer still on the loose and save taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars in appeal costs. But good old Jack o' Malley said a burden in the hand is better than 20 in the bush. Literally said that. So he said no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So he was basically saying, killing this one guy is worth it. Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. So Larry Eiler dies of AIDS on March 6, 1994, at 41 years old. Kathleen Zellner handles Eiler's appeals. She describes the killings. He tells her about all the killings over the last three years before he dies. And she convinces him. She convinces him to let her release his confession after his death. So she released A list of 21 killings to which she said Eiler confessed and that he said he had an accomplishment for four of the killings. He took a polygraph text that supported all of these things. So it's all true? Maybe. Probably pretty much so. I don't know if you recognize the name Kathleen Zellner.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is it the it makeup products that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, make your Zellner fur. Don't get a case of the Mondays will exonerate your pores. I Don't know. Is that what you mean? Trying to think of stuff.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You were going on my riff. I thought you were giving me clues for who she really could be.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, no, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God. I was just like, what?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, how should I know that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Puzzles.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, no, no. I was going off your riff badly. You couldn't tell because they were very bad. We'll exonerate your pores.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I disagree. I think you did great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you so much. I'm honored you're saying that. Cause it's my birthday.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I'm not. No, I never do that. That.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. One. Ms. Kathleen Zellner, who, by the way, if this had been turned into a movie like it was supposed to called Privileged Information, would have been played by Jessica Biel, is also now Steve Avery's new appellate attorney from Wisconsin.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Making a murderer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mm.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So she is a defense attorney.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's an appellate. She's on appeals. She's the appeals attorney.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Once you get convicted, she comes in and is like, let's see if we can turn this around. So she.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's what she did for him in that she found out that his whole defense had been paid for by the person. He ended up fingering his doctor Little. So she was like, what the fuck? So she basically goes through everything from the trial and is like, here's what this fucked up. Here's what that fucked up. We're gonna go back and appeal all of this based on this, not based on even whether or not you did it or based on, you know, it's purely legal. It's like the problem turn over enough. This evidence they were supposed to did.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This go by the book.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right? Which meant might or not mean that the guy is guilty. But it doesn't matter because it's process, due process. Yeah. Which is great. Good for her. All right. You know what I mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

George is like, I'm being forced to say this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I mean that, though. It's like, you know, it's the thing that fucking guy Brenham says to us too, which is like, it doesn't matter. You have to give them a good fight.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which is like, no, put him in jail forever. All right, so a bunch of 11 bodies after his arrest, 11 bodies turn up in rural counties in Ohio and Indiana, all the same age, ligature marks, all this shit. And then. So that's it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Where's Dr. Fucking Little? Is he the one doing it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't. You can't find information about this shit. Oh, I want to give a shout out to the article. Really? That Sums up everything really well. Was called the Return of Larry Eiler from the Chicago Reader in 1992 and it's written by John Conroy and it really is the best article you can read of it. And then there's a couple other ones here and there that give some information, but it's so hard to find anything.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. But this, the Return of Larry Eiler. I want to read that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's just such a fucked up. I hope I told that well enough. And I know I was like, I didn't say words correctly sometimes, which is how I do things.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But hey, it's your birthday.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's my birthday. My mouth is dry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Amazing. Well, now I just want, now I'm so mad and want to know it also. That sounds like such a dumb political stance of, yeah, we are going to kill him because we got the chance to kill him and he deserves to be killed, so we're going to kill him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, this, this guy was also like, like it was his first death penalty that he had gotten and they were all proud of that. So he didn't want to give it up. And so all these parents whose kids had disappeared and they didn't know where they were and people who thought it was going to keep happening were like, give this guy life in prison, he's not going to get out. And this chick Catherine Zellner was also like. Because the guy was like, well, what if he then gets out in 30 years because we took the death penalty away. And she like proved that he wouldn't because of these, because of this other, this other thing he got found guilty of. So it was never gonna happen anyways. And this guy just like wouldn't care.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, he's admitting to 20 murders and you give him a life sentence. He won't get out in 20 life sentences with no parole.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He wouldn't have.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that's fucking heavy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, so it's just, it's just fucking sad and crazy that we've never heard. It's just another one of those, like, you know, a disenfranchised group of people are getting killed so nobody cares and it's not a big deal to anyone except their families. So why prosecute hard or what, you know? And no, it's nothing against the cops. And actually there's one John Doe that one of the counties had. They could never find out who it was. So they, all the cops there paid for a funeral for him and like went to the funeral and visit the grave and got him a headstone and it's like, it's not, it's just, it's just shitty.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so shitty. It's such hard work and that's so shitty. Yeah, well. And you know, this made me think of in just a pull out, bigger picture thing because we, even since I was in high school, being in high school in the 80s, the difference, the way people talk about being gay people treat gay people, it is exactly the opposite of how when I was a teenager. And so I think the younger people don't appreciate it as much. But this is such a great example of, of people going like, you know, men marrying men or women marrying women, what's next? Or whatever, all that kind of shit. It's such a, like when you look at how, when you repress and oppress people and tell them that they can't be who they are, the kind of things, the kind of psychological damage that that causes and what that can turn into in certain people, obviously not always, but the idea of that, that people back then, not that long ago were absolutely forced to not only deny who they were, but some were made to despise who they were to the point of having to kill. It's such a fucking heavy concept.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, what's crazy too is if like for the victim side, it's also that thing of like when you make fun of people for that thing, you make them less human. And like unless you identify with them less as a human being. And so when these horrible things happen to them, you can't have empathy for them because you don't think they are normal human beings.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And the other thing I was going to say was something really poignant about.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, that, I mean, on top of that, which is an incredibly poignant thing to say, what you just said is kind of. It almost like that argument that was so popular online five years ago or whatever of like, everything's funny, rape is funny, anything is funny. Maybe in your small group of friends that could be true to you and the people who are just like you, but in the larger scheme of things, that's exactly right. It's dehumanizing to people and it's dehumanizing to situations where it's like. But that's actually not the case for everyone. And this, it feels like these days the attempt almost subconscious, societal. You know, as a human race, we're just trying to be more connected and more empathetic to each other, no matter who that other person is. And so if that person isn't like you and might not laugh at those same Jokes as you. Of course, you can still tell whatever fucking joke you want. But the idea is, are you going to make a human connection or not? Or are you going to cancel that connection forever? Because you. You so value your momentary need to say whatever the fuck you want.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I think more and more people are being like, what the fuck is wrong with you that you need to make fun of these people? And I think what's really cool nowadays, too, is like, we're so much more willing to call people out on their shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, why are you making a rape joke? And when you do make a rape joke with five of your friends, you don't know if one of them has been raped. And so they're never going to come forward because you're making it a joke. And I think that people are more willing to call other people out on it now. And there is a psychological thing with people who can make jokes about that, that there's something fucking wrong with them a hundred percent.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think that's really what it's turning into is as opposed to talking about this as a need or a right or anything like that. It's just like. Well, actually, it's just a reflection on you, which is really what it. I mean, it's all of these. It's a very complex thing. It's all of these things at once. But ultimately, like, for me as a person, it just makes me think of you as a person less. Definitely less. I just don't talk about that. I think of you less, but I absolutely think of you less. In the same way that, like, there are a lot of people who didn't grow up while AIDS was a thing. I was. I can remember the news report when they first reported AIDS as an issue in the Bay Area. I remember it. I remember how my parents reacted. I remember the moment. I think I was, like 11 and growing up under this unbelievably scary, dark thing of aids. And then having. My friend Ken Mason, who is one of my closest friends from sixth grade through high school, died when he was 22 years old. Because he was closeted and because he got AIDS 22 or 23. It was very, very sad. But when people make AIDS jokes, I don't go, never make that joke again, or whatever. I just go, oh, you don't get it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's who you are.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You don't get. But also that you don't get it. It's almost like proclaiming your ignorance of lack of empathy, but also just that you haven't really been through life that much you haven't lived. You're probably kind of spoiled. Both your parents are probably still alive. You know what I mean? Like, when you decide that you get to make whatever race joke, you get to say the N word, all this shit that you think you can do just reflects on you. It's just about the quality of your character.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Why am I still talking?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cause it's important.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Steven, Steven, all that out, please.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Saving it out. Let's all make this a minisode. Steven it out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's gonna be our, like, break music. Steven it out, won't you?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Steven it out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Always go up at the end. Okay, we're back. Do you have updates?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I do, actually. In April 2021, one of the four victims discovered near an abandoned farmhouse in Lake Village, Indiana in October of 83 was identified using DNA and genetic genealogy as John Brandenburg Jr. He was 19 and originally from Kentucky, and he went missing from Chicago. Then in December 2021, another victim, William Lewis of Peru, Indiana, was identified as a victim discovered in Jasper County, Indiana in October of 83. He was also just 19. Then in July of 2023, Keith Bibbs, another one of the four Lake Village victims, was identified. He was the last of the four to be identified. He was from Chicago and he was 16 years old. National Geographic created a docuseries which I have to check out, called Naming the Dead. And the episode the Hitchhiker focuses on law enforcement efforts and DNA DOE project identifying two of Eiler's victims that aired just recently in August 2025. So go check that out. Naming the Dead is what it's called.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that sounds good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so great that we're finally able to put names to these children. I mean, they're teenagers still. Yeah. I just. I hope that this just keeps unraveling and, you know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, let's do your story. This is one. I've just never forgotten it. Maybe it's because I live near Glendale, but it's just so disturbing, so wild, you know. Let's listen to Karen's story about the pillow pyro. Taking care of our mental health usually ends up at the bottom of the to do list.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's somewhere between cleaning out the junk drawer and going to the post office. So basically it isn't going to happen.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But Talkspace makes it easy to fit therapy into your life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

Talkspace is also in network. It's covered by most insurers and most insured members pay a copay of 0dol.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Talkspace is affordable even if you pay out of pocket. Part of the mission of Talkspace is to provide quality care that's accessible and affordable. Whether or not you're insured, you can.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Switch providers at no extra cost, so you'll be sure to find a licensed provider that fits your needs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Here's why I love Talkspace because they're making it actually affordable for people in 2025. Very important these days.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We need it the most now, and we can't afford it the most now. So let's fucking do it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, let's get it all covered by our insurance and then let's get some therapy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

As a listener of this podcast, you'll get $80 off your first month with when you go to talkspace.com MFM and enter promo code SPACE80.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's S, P A C E 80. To match with the licensed therapist today, go to talkspace.com Mfm and enter promo code SPACE80.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye. Goodbye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This podcast is sponsored by PayPal.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Big news. Aldi is now on Uber Eats, and you get 40% off on your first order with code NEWALDI25.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

For orders over $30, you can save up to $25. Ends December 31st. See app for details. Goodbye. All right, I'm going to tell that story one more time. My murder story. One more time. Just to get it right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

And did I make a lot of mistakes in the beginning of that? Can I redo it, Steven? Not right now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He has all your fixes in there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There. No, but like the words I miss Said I'm just going to put Natalie in between. Oh, no, Natalie, I'm sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you want me to do mine?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. For always and forever.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, here's mine. This I got. I was watching Forensic Files as we all. I think. I swear to God, I think someone just very recently tweeted at me. Do you watch Forensic Files? I'm not kidding.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Karen is hot about this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The answer is yes, if there's a policeman in it. I've at least watched it one time. That's the rule. Also, people are recommending BBC Things. We don't have it yet. Don't ask me if it's a brand new. Okay. Take this out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I've gone too far. Okay. I'm watching Forensic Files and I have a recovered memory of the best Forensic Files I've ever seen. And I'm like, how come I haven't done this one before?

[Georgia Hardstark]

For.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's insane.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love it. I love. I love when that happens.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right? And you're like, oh, my God, why haven't I? And it's like a big. So this. When I watched this on Forensic Files the first time, I remember standing up and going like, no way or something. It was one of those.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So I was like, so excited.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Gotta look this up. Gotta find my info. And it is insane. And it's an LA one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I want everyone to know that the word insane by Karen's hand gestures was written in lights. You did the. Written in lights across.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was like a Liz Minnelli Broadway move. Insane.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was like if. Yeah, like a cartoon. Then could put up sparkly lights.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Gling.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That said insane.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That said insane.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was gorgeous.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, so this is the pillow pyro.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Love it already.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right, so. So you may remember this. I don't know. You're a little too Young. Throughout the 80s in Southern California, there was a spate of arson fires that killed families. It cost tens of millions of dollars, went on for years and baffled authorities. And sometimes arson fires were being set up to three times a day.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Holy shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In the Southland, as they like to call it on the news here in Los Angeles.

[Georgia Hardstark]

One TV show that got canceled, Southland.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The Best, starring Sean Hadassey. Okay, so all of this is. I'm retelling you a Forensic Files. It's one of my favorites. That's where I get the chronology, some of the wording, whatever. But also within that Forensic Files they talk to. One of the talking heads is a famous crime writer. And he was also ex LAPD detective. He was a detective for the LAPD for 20 years. His name's Joseph Wambaugh and he wrote a book called Fire Lover. So if you really want, like, the Deep Down Story, which I would highly recommend. I think I want to read this book. After I got those two Hunt Monsters.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I've been listening to it. There's another thing that I was happy about this week. No, it's not. No, it's not. But yes, it's not everything else.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But you have been listening to it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I started listening to it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So have I. Like all around the House. I can't stop.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I forgot to mention. Mentioned this in the beginning.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, we'll have to talk about it after. Okay, okay. But Fire Lovers next, because this story is so fucking crazy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Take it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, but as I wrote, I'm taking the chronology and the shape of the story from the forensic file. Hey, girl. Okay, okay. So this episode starts. And so I shall start on October 10, 1984, because it's very good storytelling. Just started on the day that the San Diego Padres are playing the Detroit. Detroit Tigers in the World Series.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, everyone remembers that, actually. I bet Vince remembers exactly where he was.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm sure he does, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Detroit boy and all.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I believe they were playing in San Diego, so. Or maybe not.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, no, no, I'll ask Vince.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It doesn't matter. Steven, Steven, Steven. Okay, so it starts on October 10, 1984. The San Diego Padres are playing the Detroit Tigers in the World Series. And there's a hardware store in South Pasadena called O. I don't know if you remember that chain of hardware stores. It's like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, it sounds.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, it's basically like old school Home Depot.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So they interview a guy named Jim Obdam who worked there in high school. And he's talking about how he notices nobody's there because the World Series and the Padres are playing in the World Series. So there's no business except for, like, a few people scattered around the store. So he hears an emergency message over the pa and then the fire alarm starts going off. And so he looks. He goes out into, like, the aisle and looks down and there's a huge plume of smoke coming from, like, the back of the store. Whatever. And so he turns and he starts helping the few customers that are there to try to get them out the fire exit doors. And as they're trying to walk toward it, it just becomes a wall of flames. And the entire store is like, up and fully engulfed, like, immediately. He said it happened so fast. He got out of the store, but he had really bad burns on one Arm. He said he touched his arm and skin just came off.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. So he gets out, but four people got trapped in and killed in that fire.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Two customers, grandmother Ada Deal and her 2 year old grandson, Matthew Troy. And then two employees, 17 year old Jamie Cetina and 26 year old Carolyn Kraus. They all died in that fire.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So the official explanation was that it was an electrical fire, that the arson investigator from the Glendale fire department was on the scene. He believed it was arson right off the bat. He took pictures, he documented the whole scene. When they were saying, we think it's not electrical fire, he was arguing with them. So then January 1987, there's another fire at a different Olies hardware store. And this fire. So this is like three years later.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Two and a half, three years later. This one is set in the foam padding section.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, God. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then the same day, 90 miles away in Bakersfield, there's a fire at a craft mart store. And in the Bakersfield fire, Captain Marvin Casey arrives at the scene at that fire and he finds in a bin of dry flowers a slow burning incendiary device, which was three matches wrapped around elit cigarette with binder paper rubber banded around the outside of all of it and then put into the dry flowers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So when the cigarette gets down to the butt, it lights the matches on fire.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep. And then the matches light the paper and it's. The whole thing is just this very rudimentary slow burning incendiary that you would never.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That you would never look like. Notice. Lookbook.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right, exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm so sorry. Elvis is eating the french fries that are on the counter. Sorry. He's gonna vomit those on the bed in the middle of the night if those are not taken. Thank you, Steven. I think we should leave that in. I don't know though.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cause you're like. I'm so sorry. Elvis is eating like. Stephen, go get that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I just. I mean.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What do you mean?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm not getting up. I don't want to be rude.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Georgia's feet are above her head. She is so reclined.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I have a pillow between my legs. Okay. Sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no. Okay. So they find that incendiary vice in the. In the dried flowers. Marvin Casey does. And then on the binder paper he finds a fingerprint. So he sends that off to the lab and they're like, we have to get that fingerprint. But it is the 80s, remember? So everything is like 100 years old. Xerox. It's the Xerox version of everything. Everything's a fax machine.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Everything is a carbon copy of a carbon copy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it's like dittos. Okay, so while Marvin Casey is at the scene of that fire, the Craft Smart store, he hears on the radio, a second fire breaks out at a different fabric store in Bakersfield.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The fuck?

[Karen Kilgariff]

So the investigators that went to that fire found that that was also intentionally set with a slow burning incendiary device in the pillow and foam rubber section of the store. There were other suspicious fires in the neighboring towns north of Bakersfield, Tulare and Fresno. So it's basically all these cities up and down Highway 99, which is basically in California. There's the five that goes up and down the entire state, which is what you drive when you're going from LA to San Francisco. And you want to go 95 miles an hour the whole time. The 99 is inside is further east and it's more of a two lane highway. And you take that one when you're just smoking a bunch of grass. Okay? So Marvin Casey hears the reports on the radio and then he remembers there's an arson investigators convention in Fresno that weekend. And so he realizes that all of these fires are going up and down the 99 ending in Fresno because Fresno's the northernmost of all the cities that that was happening in. And so he goes, he's thinking, what if this arsonist is a fireman? And he goes to his bosses and explains this theory to them and they're like, you're fucking crazy. That's insane. That's not true. Like, you know, they're so not into that theory.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They were like, think inside the matchbox. Come on. But he was thinking outside the matchbox.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, oh, I get it. God, they basically say he's crazy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay? That's what they say.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So they find matching slow burning incendiary devices that match the Craft mart and the olifiers. Then they take the print. He takes the print that's found, it's entered into aphis, but there's no matches in the national data. So he asks if he can cross check all the fingerprints of the people who are at that arson investigation convention with this one fingerprint. And they say no. They said, your theory is impossible and ridiculous. Okay, so two years later, in March of 1989, there's another spate of fires. This one's up and down the 101, and it's further north. Marvin Casey once again sees that there's an arson arson investigation symposium in Pacific Grove. So this is up By Monterey, from what I looked on the map. Unless there's another Pacific Grove. So, basically, what Marvin Casey does is he narrows down a list of 10 people who are at the first arson symposium and the most recent arson symposium. I don't know if that's correct terminology.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I would have guessed that whoever was doing the fires was, like, mocking them or with the people, the firefighters at the symposium. Right. Could be. But he didn't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You mean, like, burning nearby? Like, you can't get him? Yeah, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like you guys are all here. And yet I'm still.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, anything's possible at this point.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Except. Except for my possibility. That's. No, you're right. I mean, I think that's just so fascinating.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That he thought of that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. Okay. So he makes the list of the 10 people who are both, and he finally. They start working. There's been so many fires at this point, they bring in the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. And so he gets ATF to cross check the fingerprints with the one found on the incendiary device. There's no match. So it confirmed that Marvin Casey's theory is no good. His bosses are like, okay, are you gonna drop this now? Because that was your chance to prove it, and your theory is wrong. So then, two years later, in June of 1990, there's the college Hills fire. This is a fire that was in those hills above Glendale. It burned 67 houses.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Holy shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's one of the biggest wildfires in California history.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it was proven to be our. So by the year's end, by the end of 1990, it was clear that this arsonist was at it again. And finally, the ATF assigned Special Agent. I'm doing it, too. Special Agent Mike Matassa to the case. He in starting to work on it and look through all of the evidence and the facts, finds out about Marvin Casey's theory. And he thinks it's a good theory. So he goes back, he sees that the fingerprint didn't match anybody's. So he has the idea that this time he's gonna cross check that one fingerprint with anyone who's ever applied for a job with the city. So instead of being those specific dudes, it's just if it is a fireman or whoever it could possibly be, we'll know. If we cross check it with the city fingerprints, it could be the fucking.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fire receptionist, firehouse receptionist.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It could be the fucking Dalmatian.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Could be the trainer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Why didn't you notice that there were five little pads, those points of Points of comparison or whatever they call it. Okay. So. Yeah. Cause you have to get your fingerprinted when you apply for a job with the city. Comes back with a match. The match is a man named John Orr, who is the arson investigator for the Glendale Fire Department.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He was he that got the first scene. Second scene, yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

At the first story I told, it's the guy that was there immediately saying, this is arson.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He was calling it out as arson person. Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Tell me everything.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. This is okay. At this point, when they do this reveal in forensic files, I was like, wait, so what? Because they do it so perfectly that you're like, but who could this be? This is super weird. Or it's someone that wants to be a fireman.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Because it wouldn't be the person. That just makes no sense that the person there being like, it was arson. I know. Because I did it. Like, that doesn't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're like. You're kind of stupid or you're so smart. Well.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, it's that thing of, like, how serial killers get so narcissistic. And they're psychopaths, so they think they're smarter than everybody. They don't think they're ever gonna get caught, and they really are. It's part of the joy of doing it, is setting it and then being the first one there to explain to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Everybody how it happened, or showing up and thinking someone else is gonna be like, it's arson. But everyone else is like, it's natural. And he's like, no, give me credit for how smart I am. Yes. They're just saying it's fucking. No, look around. Isn't that person must have been real smart. Over here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Look over in the pillows. Okay, so here's the deal with John Orr. He applied to be a Los Angeles policeman first. He all his life wanted to be a policeman. He passed every test except for the psychological exam.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Uh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That can't be that hard to cheat, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, his psych profile. Here's the quote from it. From the results of that test. It says he's a schizoid person who is withdrawn from people and may have sexual confusion on his orientation. That comes out in a. In a cop test.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't understand. I want to take it. Can we get the LAPD to send us two cops tests?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not the one where you have to climb over a wall dry.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That one I fucking hate. You know when they scramble straight up like a wooden wall?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Makes me want to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I want to light that wall on. That wooden wall on fire.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. With a slow burning and Sunday areas.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And take a psychological test. Or I go sit indoors in an air conditioning and pass it. And pass it with flying colors. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So then he applies to be an LA Fire Department.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A fireman. He applies to be the department he wants to become the entire department. He applies to be a fireman in la, but he can't pass the physical. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which, I mean, could anyone for real.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because also, it's not just being a fireman, but you're a fireman in la.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Where it's kind of like the cream of the crop anyway, in terms of people. A lot of people come here who have big muscles.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Anyhow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And email Karen at. If you have big. If you're one of those.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How big are your muscles? Let me know. Yeah. Because I'm super into that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know that's what you're into. Big muscles.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Totally. Okay. So he doesn't pass the physical. He's crushed. So then he kind of, like lays low for a while. Then he applies to the Glendale Fire Department, which is less Tony and exciting and status y, obviously, than the LA Fire Department and probably easier to get into. So he gets in. And he actually does very well. And he quickly is promoted to captain and then eventually to arson investigator. So John Orr was also on Marvin Casey's list of the 10 people who were at both of those arson conferences. Yep. And the. And later on, they found that the only reason his fingerprint didn't match, it was just like a lab mistake. It was the same fingerprint.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So that was almost. And also then I thought, ooh. Or did somebody go, this can't get out or this can't be found out?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Although that'd be insane because then it's like. But then we'll. We'll let all of Glendale burn just. Just to hide this one fact.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Maybe it won't happen again.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my bad. Dang it. 67 houses. So. So after seven years of arson fires, they finally have a suspect. But the fingerprint only puts him at one of the fires, so they have to put him under surveillance. So it's so hilarious in this forensic files, they talk all about GPS versus the tracker that they use on his car. And they're explaining GPS because no one knew what it was. This man talking about satellite technology as such, where I was like, oh, my God, we live, like in this triple future.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Compared to 1993 or whenever this. Okay, anyway.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's just so weird I love it. So this is basically what happened. And I wish I couldn't find anything else about the specifics of this day. And I so wish I could also. I tried. I'll talk about it. After they find his car. They locate. So they put a tracker on his car. And they find. Once they get all this information, they're like, find him now. He has to be off the street. Street, you know. They find that he's at the Warner Brothers lot in Burbank. And soon after they locate his car there, a fire breaks out on one of the TV show sets.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are you kidding me? I swear to God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I was like, which one was it, alf?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, you don't know? I thought you were gonna make me guess.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I wish I could.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, someone's gotta know this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Someone's gotta know. And that's what I was gonna say. It could be in. There was a made for HBO movie called Point of Origin, starring Ray Liotta playing this guy radical. And I'm sure it's in there. But the only. I could find no versions of it, not on HBO go, nowhere, on YouTube, there's a version of it. Have you ever seen this? Where people illegally upload movies? And so they put it into almost like a mortise. So it's a TV screen like yours, but turned to the side. The speed of the movie is speeded up, like, times two. So it's Ray Liotta being like, get over here and take a look at this. Like, everything's going really fast.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I have no idea about that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And also, there's an Asian girl standing there with a remote control pointed at the tv. Like, that's all static. And then the movie's happening in the screen. You have to see it. It's hilarious. If you look up Point of Origin.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, that's how I. That's a 1990s ripoff of a movie, is that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's how you pirate a movie in 1991. I tried to watch it for, like, four minutes, and I was like, this is not fucking worth it. I feel like I'm about to go insane. Okay?

[Georgia Hardstark]

So anyway.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But someone can. And I bet you in that they say exactly what show they're on. So anyhow, he leaves, okay? So basically, they find that he's at the Warner Brothers lot. Then they get the alarm. A fire has broken out on the Warner Brothers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Elf is on fire.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Elf's burning. His whole back is on fire. Someone get over there right away. Which is funny because there is a fire department on the Warner Brothers lot. There's actually like a fire truck and a firehouse and everything right there. Anyhow, ask me anything. So they track him driving away from the Warner Brothers lot. And then when he gets the official call on his radio at home, he drives back, but the radio operator gave the wrong address. So she's like, there's a fire at DDU Du Du do. He drives straight back to the Warner Brothers lot.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They did the wrong.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Well, they say it was. They say. They make it sound like it was the dispatcher's mistake, but I bet you that was the test. Yeah, because you don't need to know the address of the Warner Brothers lot. It's like the main thing in Burbank.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Anyhow, that's when they knew it was absolutely him because he, with being given a different address, still went to where the fire was. So they're like, arrest him now. So that's. They're like, all right, I just said that. Okay. So they get a search warrant for his home and car. And then inside a briefcase, they find matches, binder paper, cigarettes, and rubber bags.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, you ding dong.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He claims it's a coincidence and that he's totally innocent. In his home, they find home video that starts with a shot of a beautiful hillside home. And it runs like that for, like a couple minutes, and then it stops and it starts up again at the same home 18 months later, burning to the ground. So it was all, like, planned.

[Georgia Hardstark]

18 months. 18 months he had planned it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so crazy. Okay, so then they also find in his house a manuscript for a book called Points of Origin that he's writing. He.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Go ahead. He wrote it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's writing a book about. What do you think the book's about?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Where he's from in Europe. His point of origin.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's a book about an arson investigator who's actually really a serial arson.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Does Ray Liotta in the book version play him already?

[Karen Kilgariff]

What do you mean in the book version?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because Ray Leota. Nevermind. That's the movie name from the hbo.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's exactly right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So he's writing it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, yeah, but it's not the same. He didn't write the movie version because.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That would have been cool. Well, let's just use his. He even said Casa Ray Liotto. And so we're gonna do it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, they basically go his house and find a script that is his story, but with a different name. The arson investigator's name is Aaron Stiles, but there's a list of similarities between the book and the facts of the case. Both are firefighters. Both are non smokers. This is from a legal document. Both use a delay incendiary device designed to fully ignite the fire approximately 10 to 15 minutes after the fire. The devices in place in one draft of the manuscript. It describes a match attached to a cigarette and placed inside a paper bag similar to the actual facts of the binder paper. Match of the binder paper. Both start fires and retail stores located in Los Angeles during business hours. Both place the incendiary device in combustible materials located in the store. Both start fires in the drapery section at a Los Angeles fabrics. Both start fires in display of styrofoam products.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Both start fires in hardware stores. Both start fires in several retail stores in close proximity to one another within a short span of time on the same day. Both start fires in the same locations while both the character and the actual arsonist were traveling to or from arson investigators conferences in Fresno.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my. He's like. He's admitting to the whole thing in a stupid script.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's basically a script called My Diary of Being a Serial Arsonist.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And does he say it's a coincidence?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it's such a strange coincidence.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What'S not in that document, but what is in the script is that his lead character sets these fires and then writes about watching them with an erection or while masturbating. And one scene in the manuscript, he can't get an erection until he starts a fire.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What if that were your. What if that were true?

[Karen Kilgariff]

What if that were your thing?

[Georgia Hardstark]

What if that was your thing?

[Karen Kilgariff]

What if you couldn't?

[Georgia Hardstark]

How do you figure that out?

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then how do you make it work?

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then like, don't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, you know what it is?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just don't get an erection anymore. It's fine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know. I don't know if that's. I don't know if that's fine.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's not an option for some people.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Who would it be for? I mean, look, listen, listen. At one point in the book, he describes his lead character raping and killing a woman and then burning her in her car. Authorities found a similar case where the body of a woman was found raped and murdered in a burnt out car. But they couldn't find any hard evidence to connect John Orr with that crime. Also in the book, the main character talked about setting several fires at once so that the fireman would be overwhelmed, allowing him to watch one of the fires burn freely until it was totally out of control.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that Same character also talked about one of the victims of one of the fires he sets being a two year old boy named Matthew.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are you serious?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Mm. So the exact victim of one of his fires he's writing about in this script. And that was the detail that cinched it for the investigators. They were just like. So he's arrested and he's charged with numerous counts of arson and four, four counts of first degree murder. In 1998, he's sentenced to life in prison, plus 20 years without the possibility of parole. He has never admitted that he's guilty, which is one of the many signs that he's a psychopath. Yeah, he's motivated by his ego, by delusions of grandeur. He believes that he's smarter and better than everyone. No remorse, no guilt. And he's great actor and highly manipulative. There's actually, I found a couple clips of him talking. He got interviewed. It's before he got caught being interviewed and talking on the news about one of the fires. And he's you would. He's one of these kind of people. The way he speaks, even though he's not like that exciting of a person, you can tell how he is, like, so kind of strangely alluring. He's very sharp and very clear eyed and very, like, knows all the details. He's a real expert.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Really? Yeah. Really interested in what. Yeah. Crazy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So ATF agent Mike Matassa believes that between 1984 and 1991, John Orr set at least 2,000 fires. What? And perhaps up to 10,000 fires.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The fuck?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Some arson investigators and an FBI criminal profiler have deemed or to be one of the worst American serial arsonist of the 20th century. Before his arrest, the average number of brush fires in the hills above Glendale and Burbank were 67. A year after his arrest, that number dropped to three.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So he was doing all of them for almost a decade. It was all him, essentially. Oh. And then I just started watching a video about what it actually means to be a psychopath, because we've had so many discussions about psychopath, sociopath, all the different languages that we use, and it's basically the psychopath. What I think is super interesting is that they have absolutely no empathy or connection to other people's feelings. And it's that thing where, like, to imagine, like you could kind of break it down of like, so you're an arsonist, you have like almost like a sexual fetish for fire. So you're fired, forced to. To set these fires. That's one thing where you're just like, you can't control it. To set a fire during business hours of a large business, and then four people get trapped inside that fire and die. And you still write about them like it's fiction. Like, it's just this fun idea you have. Like, he has absolutely no connection to other human beings.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Does that mean that. Does that mean that they don't have. Have feelings like us either? Like, if you can't be empathetic towards other people's feelings, does it mean you don't know what it's like to be sad? You don't know what it's like to be happy or angry or.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I think they have their own feelings. They just don't understand. So this is kind of interesting, and this could be completely off, but this is my own personal theory because my therapist is really into, like, all that brain research and how. How, like, a lot of times we blame ourselves for just what our natural brain does. So, like, people are like, I'm super anxious. But actually, like, our brain, our amygdala, like, is set to. It trains us to look for predators constantly. So if you're not thinking about the past, if you're not, like, going over what you did the last time you tried to go hunt a bison or whatever, then if you're in the present, you're just scanning for danger. And that's our natural brain set. It's either, excuse me, reviewing the past for mistakes or scanning the present or possible future for danger. These days, people think that means I'm crazy. When it's like, no, no, that's the natural set point of your brain.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm anxious. It's like, no, you're just constantly scanning for things that could go wrong. And maybe you're overdoing it because of whatever reason, but it's normal to be like that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But I think part of the reason people think they're overdoing it because is because people think they're supposed to be at some Zen neutral nothing where it's like, no, an active mind is a natural thing. Especially a mind that's like, be careful, be careful, be careful.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It makes me feel better.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it's like, why we're alive. It's why we, our ancestors lived and other people died because that part of their brain didn't work as well.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, motherfuckers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's not as bad as you think. But. So this other part, there's lots of theory that she told me that made me very happy. But the other one was we have this thing called Mirror neurons that they're just kind of now like doing research on and understanding. But it's the thing of. Like when you watch one of those videos of a soldier coming home and his dog losing his shit. Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it just makes you cry. Yeah, that's because that's not happening to you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But your brain doesn't know that because your brain is watching another human human being, which looks like you and seems like you go through an experience that. That the mirror neuron goes, this is what it feels like when this happens. And then like right now I'm getting tingles thinking about those videos because my brain goes, it's you. When you are taking in that information, the way your brain process it is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That you're having these emotions that that person's having.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because you're empathetic and you can understand.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly. And that's how we. We stay connected. And that's how we make sure we have food every night. And shelter is because you need human connection to survive. Like it's tribe mentality. It's survival instincts.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Psychopaths haven't. Well, I shouldn't say that because now I'm making shit up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But one would say that they don't. They don't have that ability.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We know. I was about to say they don't have mirror neurons. I know nothing about the brain chemistry or anything, but we know for a fact they don't. So when they watch a soldier come home and its dog loses its shit and all those things, they just are watching a video of two things touching each other. So it's not like they get mad. He clearly has sexual feelings. He wants to be famous. He wrote this thing. He wants different things. He just has no connectors to the people around him. And no, he doesn't understand if something happens to that person, it feels the same to them as it does when.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Something bad happens to him. Wow, that's heavy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I over explained that, but I really felt like an expert. And sometimes you just want to keep on feeling like an expert.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If there's any corrections corners for that. Save it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just let me be right this one time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Have some empathy. If you have empathy, you wouldn't. Correct corner that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Come on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm gonna go ahead and say you were right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you. I mean, I think I was at least in the ballpark this time. Well, also because I watch a really good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's some real good videos. This can be my good thing of the week.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's. I found these videos that are just you know those ones, they explain something with an illustration so there's someone talking.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love those.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's being drawn.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. I get it now. You put an arrow to a thing. Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And suddenly it's clear. Oh, you just have a little IKEA guy that's actually acting it out. Now I get it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He has a happy face and a sad face, and that's how you know how he's feeling.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But no hair. For some. Some reason, too much. So I found a series of videos by the people who make them. It's called psych 2, the number 2 go. And so it's like, what does it mean to be a psychopath? Or how to know if you're dating a sociopath or depression, how to deal with your anxiety, whatever. But then I'm like, what is psych 2 go. I've never heard of you before. So I start looking into that. It brings me to a website that says, psychology by Millennials for millennials.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then it kicked you out. It's like, enter your birthday.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Get out of here, Grandma. This is for you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Had to enter your birthday. And it's like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry, it made me laugh so hard that it's like, finally, psychology for me. Psychology I can relate to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But actually, it seems like a good website.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I was just trying to make sure it wasn't, like, secretly Scientology or something.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then I was like. And anyways, kill, kill, kill, Karen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then send us the money. Yeah, no, it wasn't that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's sweet. My positive thing is that Vince and I are going away for my birthday for a couple days, and I just can't wait to get out of the city and go antiquing. I'm going to eat so much food. Maybe there'll be a massage in there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, hey, I just need to get.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Out of town for a day or two.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's gonna be so nice. And you're gonna be by the ocean, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So you get to have some of them negative ions, which is real good for you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Does that happen?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's the ocean air. That's why ocean air always feels good and, like, makes you feel refreshed. It's them negative ions that we don't get in this polluted city.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Into it. All right, we're back. Karen, do you have any updates?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I do. So let's see. Well, John or continues to serve his life sentence. He still maintains his innocence. He claims that he had an ironclad alibi, but his lawyers wouldn't listen and that he pleaded guilty to save his wife. Who is now his fourth ex wife from bankruptcy. So kind of interesting. Apple TV has a 2025 series called Smoke that was inspired by this story. And Taryn Edgerton, who's the guy that played Elton John, is the star. And then Jurnee Smollett, who you might remember from Lovecraft country. So good in that. So she's the detective. And then Taron Edgerton is the fire investigator with the dark past, and they hunt down some serial arsonists. And also there's a podcast called firebug from 2021.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it chronicles the investigation into these fires through interviews and excerpts from that manuscript that Orr wrote. So that story is just so crazy. I will always remember learning about it and then just being like, this cannot be real. It's beyond.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The audacity of evil is just, like, beyond comprehension for people who aren't evil, which is, I guess, why we do this, Right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

And like, sitting in. When you live in the valley and you look at that hillside all the time, and they were catching on fire constantly, it was just like it became this just. Well, this is just how it is. And there must be a scientific reason and a natural kind of reason. Instead, it's the fucking fire chief. The fire chief's doing it just wild.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, let's head back in to wrap up the show.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, bye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, wait. That was fun. Should we wrap it up? I feel like we didn't wrap it up correctly. That was good. I like your fire story.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I'm gonna watch that. The whole time in my mind, I was, like, picturing how the forensic files would look. Yeah. So as you were telling it to me, I was like, oh, yeah. Then this thing would happen, like, how bad the reenactments probably were from the 90s.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. There was a lot of. They had a lot of home video.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The dawn of Real.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cause it was his home video. Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He would go to the fucking fires and set up his video camera, dude.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or he had a lot of, like, hard copy photos. Fuck yeah. It's the craziest. Like, I think that might be my favorite is the person that's been wearing a mask and then doing horrifying things and no one knows. And, like, it's almost like people don't wanna know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. I wish someone would talk to him. It's crazy that he's still alive and, like, has all this information but won't even admit to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

To it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So we can, like, figure him out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no, in his mind, he's. He. It's Another one of those things. He's being victimized. He is completely innocent. He has never admitted to anything.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ah, so I wonder what that is all about, too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's a psychopath.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They don't admit. They're. They're Even if he.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Does he know he did it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

[Georgia Hardstark]

How could he think he's tricking anyone? He's in jail for the rest of his life, I guess.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, he did trick people for so long.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it's the. That's part of the mental illness is like they think they're kind of the king of the world.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Well, shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, fuck.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't do it. Look, stay away.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If you do anything. If you don't do anything, please let it be. Light everything on fire.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. You've heard me say that a million times.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Isn't that your lower back tattoo?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It wraps all the way around my.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My haunch. Your hat, your cackles.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't want to get my cockles up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, we're back.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So this episode was originally named Steven it out, which we were basically using Steven's name as a substitute for editing. And so if we were going to name it today, what would we call it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Georgia. We'd call it Bitch Color Wheel.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hell yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The different ways to be a bitch. A beautiful rainbow. Oh, and then, of course, my birthday wish for myself. Learn to levitate.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Live it. Love it. Learn to levitate was one of my. The funniest things. Not only funniest things you've ever said. Made me laugh so hard. But then somebody made that unbelievable graphic for it that had like, a tree line, a beautiful kind of, like, nature. That was one of the first things. I think I saw it on Facebook where I'm like, oh, my God, they're paying attention to what we're saying. And then making things because of that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Honestly, if you ask me what the dumbest thing I've said on this podcast is, it's that I don't understand why you liked it, why anyone liked it. It's just because that's just.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's you being a fast brain, which is always fun. But then it was like you were just. Yes. Anding. You were. Yes. Anding something dumb. And then being like, this is what I'm all about, or whatever. And it was hilarious. It was just hilarious.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just try it. Try this. Try saying the stupid thing. Everyone. You never know. And it'll end up on a T.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Shirt and who fucking cares anyway, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, well, thanks for listening. We're going to let Mimi silently say goodbye way back in 2017. Thanks for listening, you guys. You guys are the fucking sweetest.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're number one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Number one. Stephen, thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Steven, thank you for all your accents this week.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm pretty good, thanks. Oh, there was a moment of thinking. Mimi, thank you for your input this week. Come on now. This one, Mimi. All right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Mimi's like, no, that's not, I'm not. That one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No comment. And I think while I did that, I broke this microphone. So that was great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You yanked it right down. Didn't mean to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, thanks for listening, you guys.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Stay sexy and don't get murdered. Elvis, you want a cookie?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Mimi, want a cookie? That was Elvis.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mimi.

[Karen Kilgariff]

K byee Reading a skincare label shouldn't feel like decoding a dead language.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

From their award winning foundation to their nourishing skin care line, Crunchy is raising the bar.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so true. So I've been putting on more makeup than I ever have in my life because we've been doing videos and live shows and so I am really, really careful about what I put on my skin because I break out out easily. So I love that. Crunchy is so clean and so nourishing. I'm actually wearing makeup that's good for my skin and makes my skin look better instead of hiding all the imperfections, which is usually what I use makeup for, honestly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Visit crunchy.com to shop clean beauty that performs and take 20% off your order with code MFM.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's code MFM at C-R-U-N-C-H-I.com therealclean beauty.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's play a little holiday fill in the blank. Are you you ready? Jingle Blank. Obviously it's jingle jammies, because when Old Navy rolls out the jingle Jammies, you know the holidays are officially on. The new collection is their biggest ever. 22 prints in tons of styles, from classic plaids to playful patterns. They even have coordinating graphic tees, sweatshirts, socks, fleece blankets, and even pet sweaters. Get your jingle Jammies, crank up the cheer and make the season a f. Find Jingle jammies and other holiday [e-mail] Ah, greetings from my bath festive friends.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The holidays are overwhelming, but I'm tackling.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This season with PayPal and making the most of my money getting 5% cash.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Back when I pay in 4. No fees, no interest. I used it to get this portable spa with jets.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Now the bubbles can cling to my sculpted but pruny body.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Make the most of your money this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Whole holiday with PayPal.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Save the offer in the app ends 1231. See paypal.com promoterms Points can be redeemed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

For cash and more. Paying for subject to terms and approval. PayPal, Inc. And MLS 910457.