Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 75: Breakfast Wine

Summary

My Favorite Murder Rewind with Karen & Georgia – Episode 75: Breakfast Wine (Rewind Recap)

Podcast: My Favorite Murder (Exactly Right & iHeartPodcasts)
Episode: Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 75: Breakfast Wine
Publish Date: December 17, 2025
Original Airdate of Episode 75: June 29, 2017

---

Episode Overview

In this Rewind episode, Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark revisit their original "Breakfast Wine" installment from 2017. They reflect on the storytelling, react to memorable moments, and add fresh commentary and case updates. The main case focus is Georgia's detailed account of the Mainline Murders (the Reinert case) and Karen's profile of the murder of skiing legend Spider Sabich. Throughout, the hosts bring their signature mix of dark humor, vulnerability, and empathy, providing insights into their past selves, how they've grown, and the evolution of the true crime genre and their podcast.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Atmosphere and Opening Banter

[02:00–06:00]

• Karen and Georgia introduce the “Rewind” format: revisiting old episodes with updates and new reflections.
• Light-hearted late-night vibes in a sultry LA, riffing on 80s Unsolved Mysteries aesthetics.
• Humorous asides on psychiatry, the 80s, therapy experiences, and self-esteem as teens.
  • Notable Quote [04:54, Georgia]:
    “She’s like, ‘And when you were a kid, how did you feel?’ And I’m like, well, I guess I hated myself…”

---

2. "Corrections Corner" and Listener Emails

[06:00–11:00]

• Good-natured riff about listener corrections, especially regarding Karen’s musings about Italian Jews (“pizza bagels of religion”).
  • Notable Quote [06:08, Listener]:
    "Of course there are Italian Jews. I'm one of them. Think of us as the pizza bagels of religion."
• Introduction of a key listener email: A murderino whose father was a former partner of arsonist John Orr, showing how listeners’ real-life connections deepen the podcast’s sense of community and relevance.
  • Notable Quote [10:31, Listener Email]:
    "John Orr was my dad’s partner at the fire station… he had been setting fires right under my dad’s nose."

---

3. Early Podcast Memories and Growth

[19:16–22:26]

• Karen and Georgia reflect on re-listening to old episodes.
• Discuss how their approach and sensitivity to topics like ethnicity, listener corrections, and trauma have matured over the years.
  • Notable Quote [20:08, Georgia]:
    "You should find a psychiatrist who takes your shit seriously… I never got the help I needed from her."

---

4. Mainline Murders / Reinert Case: Georgia’s Story

[28:15–73:00]
Case Summary:

• The story of Susan Reinert, a Pennsylvania schoolteacher found murdered in 1979, her children Karen and Michael missing to this day. Central players include her manipulative lover (and English department chair) Bill Bradfield and the school's bizarre principal, Dr. Jay Smith.

Key Beats & Commentary:

• Susan Reinert: Naive, romantic English teacher lured into changing her will and life insurance to benefit Bradfield, and giving him $25,000 for a fake investment.
  • Notable Quote [32:12, Georgia]:
    "She cuts her children out of the life insurance policy and changes her will to make Bill the sole heir."
• Bill Bradfield: Charismatic, pseudo-intellectual, serial manipulator with multiple secret lovers—potential conman and mastermind.
  • Notable Quote [34:40, Karen]:
    “She got her bell rung by this guy… scumbags… pick people who don’t get certain attention and slather them with it.”
• Dr. Jay Smith ("Prince of Darkness"): Eccentric principal suspected of satanic parties and criminal behavior, ultimately convicted alongside Bradfield after being found with guns, drugs, chains, and odd paraphernalia.
  • Notable Quote [42:47, Georgia]:
    “Crime writer Joseph Wambaugh wrote… some thought that J. Smith looked like an obscene phone call.”
• Evidence mishandling and possible frame-ups: evidence left in attics, missing/lost autopsy tapes, key 911 call destroyed, suspiciously cremated body.
• The photo: An image of a mysterious forest marker possibly indicating the location of Susan’s missing children, found in Bill’s prison belongings—still unsolved and haunting.
  • Notable Quote [64:53, Georgia]:
    “He had a photograph of it the entire time he was in prison.”
• Discussion on how vulnerable women can fall prey to predators, the sadness of lost children, and the trauma left behind.
  • Notable Quote [72:54, Georgia]: "I hope I don’t sound like I’m victim blaming... I don’t want to forget these two sweet… baby angels. Who knows where they went."

Case Update [73:12]:

• Still unsolved; $5,000 reward for info about missing children remains.
• Listener Elise A. Miller wrote "Tracing the Bones," a novel based on the case.
• Netflix is developing a limited series about the murders.
• The made-for-TV miniseries "Echoes in the Darkness" (with Stockard Channing) is now available on Tubi.

---

5. The Murder of Spider Sabich: Karen’s Story

[78:55–118:24]
Case Summary:

• The 1976 shooting death of Olympic skier Spider Sabich by his celebrity girlfriend, French entertainer Claudine Longet, in Aspen, Colorado.

Key Beats & Commentary:

• Claudine Longet: Glamorous ex-wife of crooner Andy Williams, a staple in Aspen’s high society. Claims Spider was showing her how to use a gun when it discharged “accidentally” as he bent over in his bathroom.
• Evidence & Investigation Flaws:
  • Mishandled diary—debate over whether police illegally searched/handled it, resulting in key evidence being thrown out.
  • Mishandled gun—chain of custody errors rendered ballistics evidence (showing the trigger was pulled multiple times) inadmissible.
  • Authorities’ special treatment of Claudine (airport re-opened for her, lenient detention).
  • Lavish jail accommodations.
• Outrageous Outcome:
  • Convicted of misdemeanor criminal negligence, fined $250, allowed to serve 30 days in jail at her convenience, then goes on vacation with (and later marries) her defense lawyer.
  • Family receives undisclosed civil settlement; Claudine barred from profiting off the story.
  • The Rolling Stones' song "Claudine" about the case never released due to legal threats.
  • Notable Quote [114:07, Karen]: "The judge changed that conviction to a misdemeanor of criminal negligence and sentenced her to 30 days in… jail and to pay a fine of $250."
  • Notable Quote [115:19, Karen]: "She later married [her defense attorney], and they still live in Aspen."

Case Update [118:24]:

• Claudine Longet is now in her 80s, still married to Ron Austin.
• In 2022, it was revealed Spider had a daughter, Missy Grice, now active in documentary efforts about her father.
• Amy Redford is producing a new documentary about Spider’s story.

---

6. Reflections, Community, and Ending

[119:31–126:22]

• Karen and Georgia reflect on how their storytelling has changed (“my documents were never more than five pages long… they’re three times longer now.”)
• Affectionate personal updates: Karen talks about running errands with her husband, Georgia recalls a cherished dinner with friends—which turns somber, as one of the friends (Neil Mahoney) has since passed away.
  • Notable Quote [124:20, Karen]: "Do not take your friends for granted...do not take your family for granted."
• Nostalgia for "the Pod Loft" days, awareness of time’s passage, and gratitude for their listeners and community.

---

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• [06:08, Listener Email]:
  “Of course there are Italian Jews. I’m one of them. Think of us as the pizza bagels of religion.”
• [10:31, Listener Email]:
  "John Orr was my dad’s partner at the fire station… setting fires right under my dad’s nose."
• [20:08, Georgia]:
  "You should find a psychiatrist who takes your shit seriously…"
• [32:12, Georgia]:
  "She cuts her children out of the life insurance policy and changes her will to make Bill the sole heir."
• [42:47, Georgia, quoting Wambaugh]:
  "Some thought that J. Smith looked like an obscene phone call."
• [64:53, Georgia]:
  “He had a photograph of it the entire time he was in prison.”
• [114:07, Karen]:
  "The judge changed that conviction to a misdemeanor of criminal negligence and sentenced her to 30 days in… jail and to pay a fine of $250."
• [124:20, Karen]:
  "Do not take your friends for granted… because as I’ve said a thousand times, we’re on a rock flying through space."

---

Important Timestamps

| Time | Segment/Topic | |-----------|----------------------------------------------------| | 02:00 | Episode intro, “Rewind” concept explained | | 06:00 | Corrections Corner, pizza bagel joke | | 10:31 | Listener email about John Orr | | 28:15 | Mainline Murders case begins | | 73:12 | Mainline Murders update – case unsolved, new media | | 78:55 | Spider Sabich case begins | | 114:07 | Longet’s verdict and public reaction | | 118:24 | Spider Sabich updates – new doc in production | | 124:20 | Reflections on time, loss, and friendship | | 125:21 | Alternate episode titles (“Pocket Full of Glitter”)| | 126:22 | Wrap-up, sign-off |

---

Takeaways

• The episode showcases Karen and Georgia’s growth, both as storytellers and as people, and their sensitivity toward victims, mental health, and listener community.
• Both cases—despite being decades old—remain relevant (and unsolved in key ways), with pop culture and true crime media picking up threads anew.
• The blend of comedy, care, and candor makes this a quintessential MFM episode for both new and longtime listeners.

---

For Listeners Who Haven’t Heard the Episode

This “Rewind” installment gives you vintage true crime storytelling with a fresh, seasoned perspective. If you’re fascinated by:

• Twisted real-life mysteries with far-reaching ripples (Mainline Murders)
• Celebrity criminal justice miscarriages (Sabich/Longet)
• Humorous and heartfelt banter, therapy talk, 70s nostalgia, listener connections, and a dose of existential wisdom—

This episode distills what makes My Favorite Murder beloved: irreverent wit alongside genuine empathy, a forum for survivor stories, and a sense of community—always wrapped in a blanket of “stay sexy, don’t get murdered.”

---

Episode Titles Considered:

• Breakfast Wine (original)
• Pocket Full of Glitter
• A Skipper’s Dream Show
• Every Other Kind of Math

Final Signoff:
“Stay sexy and don’t get murdered. Elvis, you want a cookie?”

Transcript

[A]

This is exactly right.

[B]

On December 19, based on the best selling novel the Housemaid, Amanda Seyfried and Sydney Sweeney star in a wildly entertaining thriller about a live in housemaid and the wealthy Winchester family.

[A]

The Housemaid is a twisted world where perfection is an illusion and nothing is as it seems.

[B]

The shocking twist will leave you guessing until the very end.

[A]

Can you keep a secret?

[B]

The Housemaid Rated R. Only in theaters December 19th.

[A]

Get tickets now.

[B]

Goodbye. So you're telling me that the AI that's meant to make everyone's job easier to manage just adds more to manage on top of the thousands of apps the IT department already manages? Funny how that works. Any business can add AI. IBM helps you scale and manage AI to change how you do business. Let's create Smile to Business IBM.

[A]

It's the season to come together over your holiday favorites at Starbucks. Warm up with a creamy caramel brulee latte, get festive with an iced gingerbread chai, or share a velvety peppermint mocha. Together is the best place to be at Starbucks.

[B]

Hey, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. You know one of the perks about having four kids that you know about is actually getting a direct line to the big man up north. And this year he wants you to know the best gift that you can give someone is the gift of Mint Mobile's up unlimited wireless for $15 a month. Now you don't even need to wrap it. Give it a [e-mail] switch.

[A]

Upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first 3 months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes if network's busy. Taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com. My fav.

[B]

Hello, hello and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

[A]

Every Wednesday we recap our old shows with all new commentary and insights and updates.

[B]

Today we're recapping episode 75, which we named Breakfast Wine.

[A]

This episode came out June 29, 2017.

[B]

All right, let's get into it. Let's listen to the intro of episode 75. Karen?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Hi.

[A]

Is this an ad? No. Can I talk to you about a food delivery system?

[B]

It's called your mouth and it delivers food.

[A]

It's called your hand.

[B]

It's called your hand to mouth fork and we're advertising that today.

[A]

Deliver that shit open to your mouth. Hi, welcome to my favorite murder.

[B]

Hi, welcome to my favorite murder. That's Karen.

[A]

Hi. That's Karen and that's Georgia.

[B]

Yes. Yes. Hi, guys.

[A]

Hi.

[B]

Thanks for Tuning in.

[A]

Oh, it's a late one tonight.

[B]

It's a late night.

[A]

It's kind of. It's a sultry, hot Los Angeles night. We have to record late because of my work.

[B]

We've got some mood lighting. That's actually not mood. It's just lighting.

[A]

It's just a bit of lighting.

[B]

Just pure lighting.

[A]

We've got an Unsolved Mysteries paused on the tv.

[B]

Oh, shit, I forgot to turn that off.

[A]

It looks like decoration, kind of.

[B]

Can you get. Okay, so it's paused on like a woman walking through a graveyard. She's very 80s. She's got feathered hair and, like, a black, flowy dress. And she looks very forlorn. What do you think?

[A]

But she's also. Her dress is belted and she's got a great waist.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Jealous of that.

[B]

She looks amazing. And she clearly put on a lot of blue eyeshadow before she went out.

[A]

You had to. Back then, it was kind of like your way of saying, hey, I'm out here. Cars don't run me over, I'm single.

[B]

I'm super sad, but I'm also living my life.

[A]

Yeah. Just because I'm at the cemetery doesn't mean I'm not going to bring hit 100.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I'm not saying they didn't have in the 80s.

[B]

They didn't. I'm not a mess. I always wonder, like, what. What would happen if you went back in time, went to the 80s, and then, like, use the sayings from today when people think you're cool or insane or from Germany. Right.

[A]

Those are the only three choices.

[B]

How are you?

[A]

I would like to go back to the 80s and just tell myself, just relax a little bit.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Don't have to talk so much.

[B]

Yeah. I would like to say stop fucking caring. Stop caring.

[A]

You can't do that, though, when you're a teen.

[B]

No.

[A]

There's too many chemicals in your brain.

[B]

But I was in. I was in elementary school, and I wish I'd stopped caring. Oh, I went to a new psychiatrist this week and she did this thing where she, like, asked me questions, like a half an hour, which I love, but they were all questions where I had to be like, yeah, I guess I do feel like I had to admit a lot of. And, like, I had it. She's like, and when we were a kid, how did I. How did you feel? And I'm like, well, I guess I hated myself.

[A]

Like, I had to be like, yeah, you delayed all on the line.

[B]

So this woman I just met.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's like this nice older woman, like, old, nice lady who ignored me completely when I was like, mom, my sex drive's kind of down. She was just like, moving on to the next question. She's like, I'm not talking about that.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Well, she was Armenian, too. Like, so I think she was just this, like, kind of proper, nice Armenian woman.

[A]

What if she was like, here's the thing. We're gonna cure that sex drive. It's gonna be out of you entirely.

[B]

You're gonna be balls deep and fucking. Oh, no, I was thinking the opposite, where she was just like, we're gonna. That's all we're gonna concentrate on, is you go.

[A]

She's like, we're saving that for its own day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Separate sex day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

God, I'd love to hear about that when it happens.

[B]

Sex day.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, today's. Right now is sex day.

[A]

Is it? Oh, you got the cure.

[B]

I don't know what that meant.

[A]

Um, I don't either. I'm just trying to improv your sex talk here. Look, here's the first thing I need to tell you, Steven and everybody in America, Okay? Of course there are Italian Jews.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Of course there are Italian Jews.

[B]

We knew that. We were kidding.

[A]

I mean, I don't. I. I think I was just kind of wondering aloud. But, man, did the Italian Jews come out in droves to let me know that they exist.

[B]

Me, too. And I have to quote, oh, fuck. I don't have her name, but someone wrote, of course there are Italian Jews. I'm one of them. Think of us as the pizza bagels of religion. And that's just like, whoa, that was perfect.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or is that racist?

[A]

Well, if she's the one saying it and it's her thing, doesn't she get to describe herself however she wants?

[B]

And also, it's like, well, you're talking about a bagel, which is a Jewish thing. You're talking about pizza, which is an Italian thing, you know, traditionally. And so it's not like it's.

[A]

Yes, it totally makes sense.

[B]

Anyways, go on.

[A]

It is a logical joke.

[B]

Let me backtrack.

[A]

And it's a good joke, Stephen. So, yeah, that's. I mean, we might need to cut Corrections Corner out entirely. It keeps going this direction.

[B]

The corrections corner is that we're cutting out Corrections Corner.

[A]

Here's the correction we need to make. We need to stop talking about it. No, but this was a real, real good email that Stephen just gave me. Subject line is, my dad was John Orr's Part this was, I think, from two episodes ago. John Orr was the arsonist, arson investigator in Glendale, California. It was Glendale, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so here's this email. Howdy, hey. Howdy, hey. That's the greeting. So I'm driving to work, and I have been listening to your podcast from the beginning. I hadn't listened in a few days, and I started off with the mini episode, and you started mentioning John Orr. My mouth dropped open, and suddenly I was in a car searching for the podcast where you talk about the arsonist, John Orr, and I couldn't. You were talking about a man who I grew up with, who was my dad's partner at the fire station. My dad worked for the Glendale Police Department, and the two were paired up so that they would have a police officer and a fireman to investigate possible fires that had been started by arsonists. They were partners for six to 10 years, and we knew John and his family the entire time. He had been setting fires right under my dad's nose. My dad does recall that there were times when my dad was the one who was on call for the weekend in case of any. Any fires were suspicious. They were on call most of the time and would race to the scene of the fire. And most of the time, John would show up saying things like, I thought you might need my help. My dad would get so annoyed. But we know. But we now know why he was there. My dad and a few of the men with some of the 10 people. With some of the 10 people you spoke of were board members of the CCAI California Conference of Arson Investigators who attended all of the arson seminars in Fresno, in Monterey, and as a matter of fact, they were once John's peers. As I was listening to your podcast, I just wanted to scream and say, oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. And I so badly wish I could have called in. That would be.

[B]

We had a Colin show. Yeah, we could have done one episode where I have a Colin.

[A]

I mean, that's so hilarious. Just someone screaming. Screaming. I know.

[B]

That is.

[A]

There was so much to this entire story. My dad stopped being his partner before he was caught and arrested. My dad did have to testify against him and was investigated because John Orr was his partner. You spoke of him possibly being a psychopath. And I recall my dad telling me different stories about how in different situations, how indifferent he would act toward different things. So I think there's something to that. A definite lack of empathy. I've never seen the forensic files on his story, and I remember when the movie was Released. Of course, no one in my family saw it. The book you spoke of was really disheartening because the man who wrote it mentions my dad several times because John spoke of my dad. John and the author were not kind. The author of the book never once spoke to my dad. And most of the book is John's opinion he is a psycho and deserves to be locked up in jail for the rest of his life. I think he is crazy because I never thought that there would be anything that would speak of. Oh, that you would speak of that would have anything to do with me at all. And so you bring up the one story that I could say anything about. I went to work and told everyone the story. Still my jaws dropped open. You left me speechless. Rock on with your bad selves and don't play with matches. That's all hugs from the sexy Murderino tea.

[B]

Oh my God, I love it.

[A]

That's hilarious.

[B]

That's crazy. What are the fucking chances?

[A]

Well, also, I mean, as we now know, pretty much everyone we talk to, everybody is one. Basically one step away from a murder murderer experience like that.

[B]

In my story tonight, there's a murderino involvement.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah, which is so exciting.

[A]

That's very cool.

[B]

I wanted to tell you, speaking of one step away and hand to mouth consumption. So you did the Zanku chicken murders a while back. And Saylor a couple nights ago or a while back, Vince got Zanku chicken. And we of course got extra and saved the fucking amazing garlic sauce that they give you with it. That's like fucking known all over the city. I made a martini with it.

[A]

With the garlic sauce?

[B]

Yeah, clearly it was after one martini.

[A]

What was it?

[B]

Huh? It was good. I mean, it was gross. It was good. It was gross. You know what I mean?

[A]

I'm just trying to picture it. Was it like floating inside the martini?

[B]

No, no, I like. I like stirred it up really well. So it was like a garlic infused martini. Oh, okay. With a garlic stuffed olive with it.

[A]

Well, that sounds good.

[B]

I drink. It was like a dirty martini but with Zanku chicken garlic sauce.

[A]

Kind of strong tasting, I would imagine.

[B]

I like garlic because that sauce is.

[A]

I mean, you taste it for days after you.

[B]

Yeah, you belch that for days.

[A]

Good for you though.

[B]

Just want to let you know, I love it. Anything else?

[A]

I just want to bring up the hilarious person who mentioned on Twitter yesterday or today, hey, don't you think Stephen kind of sounds like Tina Belcher? And I could not stop laughing. And then a barrage of people were sending gifts Of Tina Belcher going like, yeah, baby. Oh my God, it was so hilarious.

[B]

Let me hear it. Tell me about it, stud. Man, this is a short fucking intro.

[A]

We're getting right into it. It's a late night. Let's just do it.

[B]

It is a late night. All right.

[A]

This is a Skipper's dream show.

[B]

Come on, you don't even have to skip. Steven, who's first?

[A]

It's you. Oh, am I right?

[B]

Yeah, you've been on it.

[A]

Woo.

[B]

Oh, I'm sorry. Am I not good enough?

[A]

You're not good enough. This is the episode where we tell you that, but we're gonna do it subtly through me naming who goes first. I know it's tough to hear.

[B]

I mean, I'. It's like you're not telling elementary school Georgia anything new.

[A]

Oh, no, let her come out. I want to speak to 11 year old Georgia right now. Tell her to tell that psychiatrist that you want to talk about sex asap.

[B]

Is that creepy? To talk about sex? I feel like I'm my own mom. When your mom talks about sex and you're like, what? My mom, Janet. What? I'm young.

[A]

My mom being the nurse, she'd always be like, girls, it's natural. And we'd just be like, ew. It was totally like. A woman's body is. The chemicals in a woman's body are very special.

[B]

Women have needs and wants too.

[A]

Get me out of this carpool.

[B]

What about when you call it the female orgasm? There's something about the riz. The female orgasm.

[A]

The female orgasm has a little pink bow on the side.

[B]

Oh, it's adorable and quiet and it's just easy.

[A]

And it smells like baby powder.

[B]

Moving on. Then you gotta move on from the. Move on from the real orgasm.

[A]

That's right, the man orgasm.

[B]

And we don't even call it the man orgasm.

[A]

That's right, the orgasm.

[B]

But the female fries up. All right. Okay. So the other night I couldn't sleep. And as always, I click on any article that is about some kind of case or murder or horrible thing that's gonna make me not be able to sleep. Yep. Which I already can't do.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I found one called the 18 creepy murder cases you've never heard of that'll fuck you up on buzzfeed.

[A]

Oh, I read that. Did you? Well, I read one that was murder cases that you've never heard before. Because I always love to read them. Be like, I've heard of it.

[B]

That's exactly I was just gonna say, oh, yeah, try me. I Was I always do this. Heard of it, Heard it? Or like, when it's like the craziest, like, 911 call murders, and it's like, I fucking knew that one. And it's not that crazy. And then you have.

[A]

I don't know what crazy is.

[B]

Then in the comments that are always like, he forgot this murder. And it's like, they didn't forget it. They didn't fucking put it in. Because it's not that. You know?

[A]

Yes. So it's almost like no matter what is, whoever's coming toward that article is going to be an asshole.

[B]

Like we are.

[A]

Yes, exactly. And us leading the pack.

[B]

But shout out, because at least half of them I didn't know. So this is from 18 creepy murder cases you've never heard of that'll fuck you up.

[A]

Okay. I almost did one off of this list, I swear to God, and at the last minute, I just didn't do it.

[B]

You're like, this one's boring, but go.

[A]

Ahead, live for the week. We do the same murder. God damn it.

[B]

I know what happens. The world explodes.

[A]

It's just. It'll be a ton of laughing, and then we'll like. I don't know, we'll do something totally.

[B]

Different and we'll never do the podcast again.

[A]

What if. Stephen, here it is, Steven, at some point in your job that you are now currently being paid for, you write up two murders and you keep them in a file in your big backpack. And then if there's day ever comes where we do the same murder, you pull out the two mystery murders, and then we have to read those.

[B]

No, because. Go ahead. No, just from like, zero. Like, you're just like, here you go.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Yeah, you guys are good to go. No, but I love the idea of us doing the same murder. We crack the fuck up. We'd freak the fuck out. Like, how did we both know this?

[A]

I guess you're right. We'd just do it simultaneously as opposed to one after the other. It would just be, like, paragraph by paragraph.

[B]

I think it'd be so fun. I think people who don't like our speech patterns would hate us, but I think it'd be really fun.

[A]

I do, too.

[B]

I'm, like, looking forward to it.

[A]

Okay, Stephen, cancel that assignment. And instead, could you just pre prepare others? You know what, Stephen?

[B]

You know what I want you to do? I want you to fucking get, like, one of those. I want you to get, like, party supplies. Like, loud making party supplies, glitter thing. And the day that we have the same murder I want you to fucking shoot glitter at us and blow one of those. Blow beyond, you know, and like put a party hat on all of us.

[A]

You know what that means, Stephen? That means since you never know when it could happen, you always have to have a pocket full of glitter and a blower in other pockets.

[B]

Party hats for all of us.

[A]

What if he.

[B]

He's reaching in his bag right now.

[A]

I wish you guys could see Steven's backpack.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

It is the biggest backpack I've ever seen. It's a jansport. I think it's standard sized, but there's something about what Stephen carries in it or whatever he's doing that it honestly looks like it. It looks like a four year old.

[B]

Baby and Mimi could fit in there. And it's one of those ones that you see on like the late 90s. Like is. Is your kid's backpack screwing up its back Turn. Turn in at 11 to find out.

[A]

I love that they would call the.

[B]

Kid it and screwing up.

[A]

That's the news I want to watch. Screwing up its back. Maybe you should get rid of it. What a pain in the ass that thing is.

[B]

Jesus. Gonna have back problems now. Just like you, you fucking asshole. Why are you reproducing?

[A]

Why did you reproduce. Wow, that's a long, weak spine, child.

[B]

Can we cut that segment a little bit short?

[A]

Fine.

[B]

No, I mean the news.

[A]

No, I know.

[B]

Okay, not you.

[A]

I was continuing the improv, but I went too real with my character and I always blur the line like that.

[B]

I meant like, okay, we should never you.

[A]

We should never you. Always us.

[B]

Always the news.

[A]

Always the news characters.

[B]

It's always their problem.

[A]

If we took one improv class, imagine.

[B]

How annoying we would be.

[A]

Imagine how we would heighten and expand.

[B]

Yes. And lose so many listeners. Okay, let's play zip, zap, zap. And then we'll start.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

You know, like one, maybe one third of the fucking listeners understood that.

[A]

Yes. And I don't know, I think improv and comedy are taking over the world. I think it's required now that if you're 24, you've graduated from college, you don't have a job, you have to take a class.

[B]

You learn well in group settings. You kind of feel lost and you're like, I need.

[A]

I need a circle of dudes to stand in.

[B]

Yeah. And one woman, one token woman to objectify, who's really funny. It was really funny. But she doesn't. She's not super hot and doesn't wear skirts.

[A]

You might have to wait to see her for a while.

[B]

Yeah. So she's like a bro. So I just keep doing improv scenes where I have to touch her butt. What is happening?

[A]

What character are you now? Is it the same news anchor?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That guy's fucked up.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Yeah. Okay.

[B]

And we are back.

[A]

Seems like we might need to keep a. Like, a running tally of how many times I insist that we discuss Italian people, because it happens a lot to this day.

[B]

We love those Italian people.

[A]

It's fun to talk about.

[B]

I want to say one thing. When I was reading through the transcript and thinking about this episode and I mentioned this psychiatrist that I had seen blowing off something very important to me that I said. And I remember that psychiatrist. You should find a psychiatrist who takes your shit seriously. This woman, I went to her a couple times, and I stopped going to her. And I never got the help I needed from her. And I think that that was such a. Like, a moment when I. Back in 2017, that I didn't think about at the time of like. Or maybe I knew, but didn't process that she totally blew me off when I was telling her important things for myself. Like, that mattered when it came to medication.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

And the psychiatrist I went to after her in the same practice, I told, you know, she said this and this and this to me. Like, she had said to me, why are you upset? You're so put together. Because I had, like, a dress on, and I was like, oh, okay, that's not good.

[A]

That's a weird thing for a friend to say.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Much less a psychiatrist.

[B]

Yeah. So I just want to be clear that it's funny back then, but you got to find a psychiatrist who takes your issues seriously.

[A]

Absolutely. And that you get to whatever that preference is. Even if what she said was like, why are you upset? I like your dress. Or, you know what I mean? Even if it seemed. Whatever. If it's hitting a weird chord with you, you're right.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because if you actually put it in the. The world of, oh, well, I'm not qualified the way they're qualified, you'll always lose that. And in that specific conversation, you can't hold those normal standards. You have to go with, how does it feel? Am I comfortable? Do I like talking to this person?

[B]

Right.

[A]

I mean, it's also funny, like, having to revisit these episodes where we didn't know what we were saying was going to be such a problem. Like, now we look at it or read it or see it, and then we're just like, oh, no, we're opening the door for people to act mad at us or say they're mad at us. But like, saying the line about the pizza bagel, saying that out loud, it's like, it shouldn't be a problem because the context is there.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And the context is really important. Unless, of course, people are kind of looking for things to be upset about where it's like, we're talking about Jewish, Italian people. The pizza bagel part is just part of that conversation. It's not a bad thing.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Neither of those foods are bad.

[B]

And someone refer to themselves as that. I think it's very funny as a Jewish person that I'm not Italian, so maybe it's. I don't know, maybe it's not. But I think it's funny.

[A]

Literally, two of the, like, appointment foods that I make when I go to New York City, right? Pizza and bagel, they're winning the food wars, those two items, right? Those are positives, those cultures.

[B]

You're not calling me a salad or like a salad or something. Like, I'm okay with that.

[A]

Yeah, they're two of the culturally most successful foods. Whatever. I don't know. People get to say whatever they want about themselves.

[B]

We can't explain it. It's never going to be explained away to someone who wants to get upset about it.

[A]

Right. But it is kind of interesting, John Orr's relative writing in, to basically be like, hey, that book was a bunch of bullshit against my dad. That was a very new thing for us in that moment.

[B]

That was really interesting that, like, yeah, a listener, information from a parent or, you know, someone they knew that was involved in the case and got it from their side. And that is so interesting. And realizing that we could get that. It was really exciting, I think, to hear that.

[A]

And, you know, instead of it being almost like reality TV fan talk Back content, it's more like, could you please try to be more like journalists? Where they're like, what would be fair if this person's family heard it? What would be fair if this person's family, like, kind of being a little more conscientious in that way? Or just at least after the fact, if people have something to say, they get to speak, too. I think that it felt good to be able to give an update that somebody wanted to give.

[B]

Yeah, no, it was really cool.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, now we're gonna get into Georgia's story about the mainline murders.

[B]

Gifts come and go, but our favorite memories stay forever.

[A]

This holiday season, you can give your loved ones the gift of their best moments.

[B]

With Aura Frames Aura Frames turns your photos into a meaningful gift perfect for family or friends.

[A]

With the Aura app, it's easy to add as many photos or short videos as you want. Just connect to Wi Fi and they'll appear instantly.

[B]

I love my Aura frame. I've given so many away, but the one I have every year comes out at a big family holiday party. And it's years and years of holiday memories that you've already uploaded to the frame.

[A]

Oh, like chronologically from like yeah, when I'm two to when I'm seven to.

[B]

Then when you were at goth in high school and like brat. But like there it is.

[A]

They're all just waiting for your memory, mother or father or whoever just to croon over.

[B]

So it's not just a frame, it's actually like memories. That's like, come on, that's the best gift.

[A]

That's beautiful. Don't wait. Win the holidays now with Ora Frames.

[B]

For a limited time, save on the perfect gift by visiting Oraframes.com to get $35 off Aura's bestselling Carver Matte frames named number one by wire cutter by using promo code MFM at checkout.

[A]

That's a U R A frames.com promo code MFM.

[B]

This deal is exclusive to listeners, and frames sell out fast, so order yours now to get in time for the holidays.

[A]

Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. Goodbye.

[B]

A sleek professional website makes you look very put together even when you're wearing sweatpants and eating cereal out of a mug.

[A]

And that's where Squarespace comes in.

[B]

Squarespace gives you everything you need to offer your services and get paid all.

[A]

In one place, from consultations to experiences. Showcase your services with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your business.

[B]

And managing those payments is a breeze. In just a few clicks, you'll be able to accept payments with options like Klarna, Apple Payments, afterpay, and more.

[A]

You'll get paid on time with professional on brand invoices and online payments. Plus streamline your workflow with built in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools and.

[B]

Get discovered faster with Squarespace's built in SEO tools. With meta descriptions and auto generated sitemaps, you'll rank higher in search results globally.

[A]

Go to squarespace.com murder for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use Offer Code murder to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

[B]

That's squarespace.com murder code murder goodbye goodbye.

[A]

It's spooky season, but your home should feel lived in, not haunted.

[B]

Article has everything you need to create a stylish home at an unbeatable price.

[A]

They offer a curated range of mid century, modern, coastal and scandi inspired pieces that not only shine on their own, but also pair seamlessly with other article products.

[B]

Article takes great care on curating its collection, focusing solely on high quality, meaningful pieces that will stand the test of time. There's no filler. Every item is chosen for its craftsmanship, design and lasting value.

[A]

And Article provides fast and affordable shipping across the US and Canada. You get to choose your delivery time and they'll keep you in the loop with updates along the way. I know I've mentioned already how much I love my entryway table, but I swear to God because the path that it's on, like you have to walk out of the front of my house to walk to the bathroom. So I pass it four times a day and I love it more every time. It's like perfectly made, stylish, all these things that I needed and wanted and it was under $100.

[B]

I've seen it and I will vouch for it. It was freaking adorable. And it fits so well with your house. Yes. So if you're in the market for a beautiful new sofa, dining table or bed, head over to article.com Goodbye.

[A]

Goodbye.

[B]

Here's the thing about finding the perfect gift. Sometimes it's too perfect.

[A]

It's so perfect that it makes you think, do they really need this or should this stay with me.

[B]

When you shop at Quint's for the holidays, everyone on your list will be happy, including you.

[A]

Quint's has Mongolian cashmere swe for $50 when you'd normally pay more than $200.

[B]

And their denim goes with everything. They have silk tops and skirts for that put together look and down jackets that actually keep you warm.

[A]

I am wearing my gray Quint sweater right now.

[B]

You love them.

[A]

It's such a go to because it's like it just got cold in la, which means we're all acting like it's Alaska.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And that kind of thing where it's like you throw something on. You like the look of it. I think I've had this thing for five years.

[B]

You want to look classy and not just like you're wearing whatever, right?

[A]

Exactly. It's like it's cashmere without the fuss. It's like a really well made sweater, but then it's like the coziness of cashmere.

[B]

Find gifts so good you'll want to Keep them with quints.

[A]

Go to quints.com mfm to get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too.

[B]

That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com mfm to get free Shipping and 365 day returns.

[A]

Quince.com mfm Goodbye.

[B]

Now let's get into murder.

[A]

Now let's please.

[B]

All right, so 18 grievous murders, blah blah, blah. Thanks, bud Fleet, because you helped me a lot. Karen, Ardmore, Pennsylvania. Okay, this is a really fucked up case that I'd really never heard of, okay? And I was shocked because it's fucking crazy. So it's okay. Early 70s, a woman named Susan Reinert. She's a pretty kind of mousy looking, 30 something year old English teacher at Upper Marion area High High school in the mainline suburbs. Oh, by the way, this is called the Mainline Murders. God damn it.

[A]

That's okay.

[B]

So open with that. It's about 20 minutes from Philadelphia. Susan is married with two children and she's having an affair.

[A]

Yes, sorry.

[B]

With the chair of the English department. With the chair.

[A]

Like Clint Eastwood in that speech she gave. Sorry.

[B]

Remember how I was screaming at the chair? And my psychologist recently, she's having an affair with that chair.

[A]

Oh my God. She's doing role play with a chair. And. And then it got out of hand and she's like, I'm gonna fuck this chair.

[B]

Yeah. Got serious. She left her husband for the chair.

[A]

Stephen, we have to pull all of this out.

[B]

All right, so imagine at a high school, just picture the chair of the English department, okay? Tweed vest, tweed vest, in the 70s.

[A]

Heavy beard, very large beard. And maybe some like aviator shaped glasses that are indoor, outdoor. What do you call those? Transition lens.

[B]

Glass. And Susan herself, there's like not a lot of photos of her, but she's like cute and mousy and you can tell she's kind of probably soft spoken. And she has these, the eyeglasses that are just take up half of her face. They're like saucers on her face, which like looks cute and it's like cool.

[A]

And it's very 70s. This is like maybe just when contact lenses started. When the contact lenses were as big as glasses. Frame glasses. Lenses.

[B]

Anyway, you just had to cram them in your eyeball.

[A]

You were just shoving huge things and.

[B]

They'Re made of glass back when. Is that true? Can you tell me?

[A]

It was when, if it fell out at a party, people could help you find it. That's how Big. They were.

[B]

I was always proud of myself, how good I was at finding my mom's contacts when they.

[A]

Such a weird. That era just is gone.

[B]

Okay, so she's boning her fuck. The chair of the English department. But I think. Here's the thing. I think he's a Ted Bundy type.

[A]

This English department chair.

[B]

Yeah, his name.

[A]

Okay, so then he might have been. Sorry, but he might have been going toward her then.

[B]

Yeah. And she's having an affair. She has two children. His name is Bill Bradford. The guy. Nope. His name is Bill Brad Field. His name is Bill Bradfield. Gonna call him Bill. Okay.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So Susan is the woman. Bill's the fucking creep English department head. And he's super charismatic and charming. He's described by some of the other teachers as a pseudo intellectual who was, quote, full of himself. Oh, so he's like a Ted Bundy. Charming. He's like 10 years older than her. She's swept off her feet by him, and she's just like. Probably like, I've never felt. She's never had a female orgasm until she met him. I bet you for a second I.

[A]

Thought that was in the buzzfeed article. I was just like, huh.

[B]

Wait, what?

[A]

Also, if he's a pseudo intellectual, I bet you he carried a pipe around with him.

[B]

Pipe? Tweed, elbow pads, some kind of thing.

[A]

Transition lenses, a heavy cologne.

[B]

I bet he put, like, oil in his beard.

[A]

Yeah. You know, cultivated his beard, really trimmed it up every morning.

[B]

And he probably had, like, really expensive whiskey.

[A]

Right? And he had a book of erotic lithographs that he would invite people over to look at.

[B]

Like, how are we so good at this? Just describing someone.

[A]

I feel like we've lived past lives in the 70s and we're really pissed off about what we were subjected to.

[B]

And I agree. Enough already with us having to deal with these people. Enough, enough. All right? By March 79, Susan leaves, has left her husband, and she tells her friends that Bill, pseudo intellectual, is gonna marry her.

[A]

They're engaged, so she's truly in love.

[B]

She's madly in love with him. Obsessed. So much so, Karen, that she gives him $25,000 when he tells her that he has a crazy great investment opportunity. 12% gains. It's only gonna be six months, and I need it in cash.

[A]

Damn, Susan.

[B]

Okay, she gives him $25,000 to invest. She has two children.

[A]

And back then. What was that?

[B]

Oh, my God, almost $100,000. And her kids. Karen is 11. Hi, Karen. You're 11. You're not 11. It's not you. Karen's 11, Michael's 10. So she has like two young children. She's giving this dude money and. Are you ready for this? She makes him the beneficiary of her life insurance policy.

[A]

This is not going to go well worth.

[B]

How much do you think a life insurance policy for this woman would be?

[A]

$250,000.

[B]

Over $700,000.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

Yeah. She cuts her children out of the life insurance policy and she changes her will to make him bill the soul. Hair. Hair. Nope, no hair. To her estate.

[A]

So. Okay, so she's. She's getting a number run on her hard.

[B]

She's. It sounds like she's pretty naive, you know, it's like a small suburb in Pennsylvania. She's an English teacher. She's not.

[A]

All the things that I wanted to be real for her are probably not true. She, like, she's got. She, as my dad likes to say, she got her bell rung by this guy.

[B]

Oh, my God, you're right.

[A]

Like the guy that. It's that thing where. And it's a really good trick that scumbags use where it's that thing of like, they pick out people that they know don't get certain kinds of attention and then they slather you with that kind of attention so that you're kind of like, oh, he's picking me of all people in the world.

[B]

I've never felt this way before.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I mean, fine, get your bell rung and shit, but like at the cost of your children, don't adjust the will.

[A]

No, just the will for your sweet English chair side piece.

[B]

And she wrote in it, like, who's the beneficiary? What's his relation? Like my intended husband. Like, she fucking really thought this guy was gonna marry her. Yeah. So she didn't know that Bill, of course, was living with another woman for years. Also a teacher at the same school. So he's just fucking getting his harem, which they did call it that.

[A]

Did she? And she didn't know that at all.

[B]

I think he was like, we're roommates. There's no sexual relations. You know, Like, I think something like that happened. It's really hard. This took me a long time because of course, like all of these crazy really interesting murders, there's fucking pieces that you just keep finding and there's not a lot of information on them.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

He also had at least two. At least two other girlfriends, one of which was an 18 year old former student of his. So. Yeah. Yes. So the $25,000 he had said was for investing had gone into a safe deposit box, put in there by one of his girlfriends. And the term was ending soon. So she was expecting her money soon. Okay, what's gonna happen?

[A]

Bad things?

[B]

Yes. The night of June 22, 1979. So we're 1979. Susan and the kids, Karen and Michael, they're planning on meeting Bill. It's like a night of a crazy hailstorm. A neighbor saw them leaving their house just after 9pm and the neighbor happens to be the aunt of a murderino. What? I fucking. I went into the. My favorite murder email account, put in the name of this thing, and out comes like five emails. And one of them, the chick was like, you've got to look this fucking email up. Her name is Gina A. She says that her mom. So Gina wasn't born yet, but her mom was the next door neighbor of this family. And she and her sister used to babysit Karen and Michael. And that Gina's great grandmother swore that she heard screaming the night they left, which was never confirmed, but the aunt and the great grandma were the last people to see them leaving the house.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Yeah. So at that point, Susan and her kids vanish, but then three days later. Thank you, Gina A. For writing in, by the way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Three days later, June 25, 1979. It's like almost exactly a year ago. No, well. Well, not a year ago. I meant.

[A]

Okay, I know what you meant.

[B]

Stephen.

[A]

Stephen, help us.

[B]

I meant 30 years ago. Is that right?

[A]

No.

[B]

Is that. Yes. 30 years ago? Yes. No, 30.

[A]

No, it's 2017.

[B]

It'll be 30 in two years.

[A]

That's exactly the kind of math I can't do.

[B]

Me too. And every other kind of math and geometry and everything. Oh, man. I even told my psychiatrist about that yesterday that I just can't do math.

[A]

Did you have a math shutdown in high school?

[B]

I had math shut down my whole life.

[A]

I had to get sent to a hypnotist about. Because my math was. Got so crazy.

[B]

That just isn't going to help you.

[A]

Well, my mother had some ideas about the female orgasm and about hypnosis.

[B]

Did it help?

[A]

She was very. She was a very spiritual. She was. She was like New Agey. A touch New Agey, but then. But from a registered nurse background, you know what I mean? So she was like, I've seen results. These are the things I've seen results in.

[B]

Good for her. I fucking meant to talk to you about this documentary I watched about a cult over the weekend, but I forgot okay. Next time.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Anywho, hypnotists. Okay. The kids disappear three days later, a year ago, June 25, 1979. Yep. A man calls the police about a, quote, sick woman in the trunk of the car of a car in the parking lot of the Host Innocent in Swarta Township, Pennsylvania. It's about 90 miles from Susan's home. And in the trunk of her own car, which was an orange. I wrote this down for you. An orange Plymouth Horizon hatchback. Did you ride in, which is like such an 80s. Did you ride in one of those?

[A]

A Plymouth Horizon hatchback. I feel like I can see what that is. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So she's in the back in the hatchback, and her body is found there.

[A]

Oof.

[B]

She was nude. Susan was nude. She had been severely beaten. She had two black eyes. She was bound with a chain so tightly that the chains left bruises on her back. And she was killed with an injection of morphine. And it had been 24 to 36 hours after the beating in which she had been killed, and there was no sign of her children.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

So obviously Bill, the fucking teacher or English guy was the main suspect. Once the investigators found out about the affair, which he had been denying to everyone and saying wasn't true, and they found out about the money, but he had an alibi for that weekend that she went missing. He was at the beach in Cape May, New Jersey, with a bunch of other teachers, and they all vouched for his whereabouts.

[A]

Yeah, but even if. Even if he wasn't nearby in that exact same time, why would she leave you as the beneficiary on her will if you weren't having an affair or if there's no connection to you?

[B]

But they. But they were, at that point, were like, yeah, he was like. He was. I don't think he ever denied it.

[A]

To the police that they were going just around town.

[B]

Yeah, Got it. Just like, to the other teachers and stuff.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

But he was out of town. And after a couple years there, there was still not enough evidence to charge him with Susan's death and the missing children. Okay. But there was enough evidence for prosecutors to charge Bill with theft by deception because of the $25,000 she had given him and what turned out to be a bogus investment. Oh, so they were like, we know he fucking had something to do with her disappear murder. We can't charge him for that. Let's just bring him in for this for now. So 72 hours before his trial was supposed to begin from his jail cell, Bill files a claim to collect Susan's life insurance money that was left to him.

[A]

Sorry, what's this?

[B]

There are so many twists and turns in this fucking thing.

[A]

He sends a stamped envelope out in a bird's mouth out the jail cell window.

[B]

I did read conflicting things that he was actually not in jail yet. But he was or he wasn't. But like what kind of fucking idiot right before this would be like. But you know what, you should add on to those charges.

[A]

Yeah, if I just get that money.

[B]

Real quick, I'll be able to plea. And so the, the, the jury finds him guilty, obviously. And in 1981 he sentenced to up to two years in jail for the $25,000. And then during this time, police are also investigating someone else. So here's. Okay, let's switch fucking. Let's go to another. Another weird thing happening.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Principal of the high school where Susan and Bill were teaching. The principal is Dr. J. Smith. I'm gonna call him Principal Smith from now on so we know who he is.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

He's a 50 year old dude and he was known as the creepy school principal. So this dude's a fucking creep, Principal Smith. Absolute creep. Teachers jokingly called him the Prince of Darkness.

[A]

Oh wow, that's a joke. Yeah, that is funny.

[B]

Funny joke.

[A]

That's funny.

[B]

Hey, what's your nickname?

[A]

Oh, me? Oh, it's a devil joke. The Prince of Darkness.

[B]

Because I'm so light hearted because I.

[A]

Love to be around children and I am of the devil. I have goat eyes and a cape.

[B]

It's a thing of like when you go to a doctor's office and you fill out your thing and it's like, what name do you like to be like, do you have a nickname that you want to be called? Yeah, Friends of Darkness.

[A]

Marty.

[B]

Marty or Prince of Darkness. I don't even think.

[A]

Not your dad.

[B]

Not your dad. I go by Marty. Okay, but okay, so this is my favorite fucking thing in the entire world. Ready for the best quote you've ever heard?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So crime writer Joseph Wambaugh wrote a book about the whole case called Echoes in the Darkness, which is like.

[A]

Same guy that wrote the John Orr book.

[B]

Yeah. Yes, this guy, he was a cop and he was like, goodbye, I'm gonna go make a ton of money instead. So he in the book says that quote, some thought that J. Smith, the principal looked like an obscene phone call. Can you even. Have you ever heard a better description of someone?

[A]

That's fucking genius and amazing.

[B]

He looked like an obscene phone call.

[A]

So he's like what? He's like. I picture, like, shoulders up around the ears, kind of like wringing his hands, like greasy hair. Yeah. Big thick glasses.

[B]

Oh, man, he looked like an obscene phone call.

[A]

That's amazing.

[B]

I want to go ahead and. That was.

[A]

That's beautiful. Congratulations. Joseph Wambaugh or John Joseph.

[B]

Joseph.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, so he's known to be eccentric and a weird man. Often sitting in his office during school hours wearing only his underwear, which you could get away with in the fucking seventies.

[A]

It's not allowed. You couldn't do that.

[B]

Mary Lou, can you take these papers?

[A]

Principal Smith, you're not allowed to be here anymore.

[B]

I'm just hot. I'm hot.

[A]

It's winter.

[B]

It's hot in here.

[A]

It's the dead of winter, Principal Smith. And it's midnight.

[B]

Well, I'm the prince of darkness, so I'm just constantly sweating. And it's midnight. Why did you call me in?

[A]

Why did you call me in from home?

[B]

Yeah. Cause I'm the prince of darkness. Okay. There's rumors around town that Principal Smith had devil worship sex parties and had burned bodies in the school incinerator and buried chopped up body parts. So I guess they were building a school pool at this time. And so people are like, he's fucking burying bodies under where they're building the pool so they'll be hidden forever.

[A]

I just have to say that both of those rumors that you just named sound like they came out straight out of the third grade classroom.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's just like, but what if they're cutting up bodies? He's a.

[B]

He has occult sex parties. And everyone's like, that's not a thing. I mean, people swap and bone, but, like, yeah, there's no occult. Like, nobody wants to have an occult sex party.

[A]

No, but he's sitting. What's worse and harder to face is he literally is sitting in his underwear during school hours.

[B]

That part's true. So who cares if the other is.

[A]

You don't need to make up satanic parties when the principal's sitting in his underwear in his office.

[B]

Like, enough.

[A]

Come on.

[B]

Like, don't. Your parents are gonna be like, but that's okay about any of it. Okay, so. But doctor, Principal Smith's own kid, Stephanie Hunsberger, and her husband Edward disappeared in early 1978. Like a year before Susan went missing. They were reportedly heroin addicts. They fucking disappeared out of nowhere. And they were assumed they had left on their own because they were drug addicts. But till this day, they've never been seen again. Wow.

[A]

So assumed they're in the pool, too.

[B]

Yeah. Whoa. So a year before Susan's body is found, Principal Smith is caught trying to break into cars in a mall parking lot. The principal.

[A]

What the.

[B]

Is trying to break into cars in a mall parking lot. And on him are four loaded guns as well as silencer made from an oil. Oil filter, a tranquilizing drug, and quote, a hood with two slits for the eyes.

[A]

No.

[B]

Yep. What are those called? Cava Cav.

[A]

Balaclava. That's not a balaclava, though.

[B]

Thank you. I can never get that.

[A]

Thank you for your input.

[B]

I can never get that fucking word.

[A]

It's. You know why? It's weird, but I always think of Balenciaga, the designer. But a fluid with two eye slits is more zodiac y. Because a baba club, like, sticks to your face as, like, a ski mask.

[B]

And you have an opening for the mouth, too. Right?

[A]

Yeah, you're right. And also, it's just more devil worshipy.

[B]

Yeah, but how do you breathe through that?

[A]

I guess just slowly. And you stay calm with your tranquilizer in your pocket and your four fucking guns.

[B]

If you're a sociopath, you're not panicking, right?

[A]

That's right.

[B]

All right. So when his house is searched, police find Swinger Publications. Bestiality porn and chains and locks.

[A]

Unless it's just a safety thing. He has a ton of bikes. He loves bicycling.

[B]

You know what? You're probably right. Let's go back and exonerate bicycling. Did they find it? They didn't say how many bikes they found.

[A]

So let's hear the whole story.

[B]

Like, don't just. Principal Smith's wife. He has a wife. She's like. I mean, here, I'm gonna do her voice. Well, he had a double costume and he had a collection of dildos. Like, that's what Mrs. Principal Smith said.

[A]

Maureen Smith.

[B]

Maureen Smith. Maureen.

[A]

You need to face the facts, Maureen.

[B]

This isn't normal. Have you ever had a female orgasm? Well, this episode's gonna be called Female Orgasm.

[A]

I've heard of them. I have heard tell.

[B]

Those are. What's it called? Those are made up. Those are fictional.

[A]

Those are none of my business.

[B]

Principal Smith, she calls him. Principal Smith told me that. That's just. It's a feminist movement where they try to get you to have.

[A]

Principal Smith told me.

[B]

Wait, Maureen. Do you call your husband Principal Smith?

[A]

It's what he asked on our wedding night.

[B]

He was in the devil's costume.

[A]

If the devil tells me to do something. All right.

[B]

She's suddenly from the South.

[A]

Okay, that accent has to get weirder as you talk, like, Maureen Smith out of her mind. Yeah.

[B]

Okay. They also find a fake Brink security badge, which they later. Which they tied to a $50,000 armed robbery at Sears a year earlier. So he was using his fake fucking costume and his fucking security badge and guns and fucking holding up Sears for 50 grand. Like, why does Sears have that much money there?

[A]

The popcorn's amazing. Okay, but also, maybe he's like. Maybe that's why he needed to cool off in his office with no pants on. He was, like, committing major heists like.

[B]

The ones and then one rushing back one time.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I'm so hot. Mary Lou, can you just fix this on your own?

[A]

Sorry, I just ran from the bank.

[B]

All right, so he's arrested, and among his defense witnesses at his trial in 1979, three months before Susan's body is found, is our friend Bill. Oh, Mr. Elbow Patches.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He gives Principal Smith an alibi. And even back then, Susan, who's still alive at the time, three months to left live to live. She doubted Bill's alibi, too. She thought he was making it up. But Principal Smith, either way, is found guilty and given five years. But, okay, he's free on bail. While he's waiting sentencing, his date in court, which he was late to, was June 25, 1979, which, may I fucking remind you, is the date that Susan's body was found. And he was late that morning to.

[A]

Court because he was calling and saying, a sick lady is in a car.

[B]

Well, oh, I don't know. But listen.

[A]

Go ahead.

[B]

Susan was found early that morning at, like, 5am in the trunk of the car. Oh. Oh. But her kids disappeared. Right? And the court date he was late to was about 15 minutes from the hotel where her park where the parking lot where her body was found. And the police, at that moment during his arraignment, are removing Susan's body from the car.

[A]

Okay, so Patches is in. Patches is on, like, in Connecticut or something, right? He said he was. He had an alibi being, like, far away. Yeah. So he got this guy to do it.

[B]

All right, let's keep going.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

We'll have. We'll. Yes.

[A]

This will be discussed.

[B]

This will be discussed. Oh.

[A]

Oh, we're going to talk about this?

[B]

Oh, this is going to happen.

[A]

I don't know why I have to keep on guessing. I'm sorry.

[B]

No, I love it. This is. It's the best. It's fun. It makes me, like, happy. So guess what? Else is in the back of the hatchback. I'll tell you. Under Susan's body there's A, a sex toy and B, also a plastic comb with the name of Principal Smith's Army Reserve unit.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

Which I'm guessing, you know, fucking gross old men like that, like grandpas, put their fucking gross greasy combs in the front of their fucking shirt pocket. Like button down with short sleeve shirt pockets that they took off when they were in their offices.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, you know, he bent down into the trunk and probably fell out of that top shirt pocket. And then he put her. You know what I mean?

[A]

Totally the little. But it was a comb that he had his own name Principal Smith put on.

[B]

No, it. I think it was the Army Reserve unit that he was in.

[A]

Oh. Oh, just that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It didn't say Principal Smith's Army Reserve unit.

[B]

Okay, so it was his.

[A]

I took you totally, literally off.

[B]

Like they probably got it at like a fucking legionnaires hall party. Got it. You know, they passed them out. Got it.

[A]

It was just the one he belonged to.

[B]

Yeah. Like they bought him a bulk and they gave him.

[A]

His first name was Principal.

[B]

That would be great.

[A]

Mr. Mr.

[B]

Principal.

[A]

It's Principal Paul Smith.

[B]

Mr. Principal Paul Smith. Then later, a cute little green pen that was a souvenir from a class trip to the Philadelphia Museum of art that Karen, 11 year old Karen wore the day she disappeared was found under the front passenger seat of Principal Smith's car.

[A]

Oh, no. Yeah.

[B]

So almost four years after Susan Reinert's death, Bill Bradford Patches is arrested and charged with three murders, even though the kids have never been found charged with three murders. And on April 6, 1983, thanks to the help of another English teacher who was a good friend of Bill, who was like a really fucking sweet, wonderful guy and got conned by Bill as well. He felt betrayed and freaked out and told the FBI and he. He was a key witness in the trial. What?

[A]

What did he tell him?

[B]

It's Mr. Veladas. He told them that for months before Susan's death, Bill was freaking out because he thought he was telling everyone he thought Principal Smith was gonna kill her. But it was really odd and weird and he like got a gun to defend her, but never told her about his feelings. Super weird and convoluted and makes you.

[A]

Go, hmm, is he setting up an alibi or is he like. He's pre. Throwing people off.

[B]

Right. But why even bring it up in the first place?

[A]

Right?

[B]

Cause he thinks he's smarter than everyone.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So he's getting all these other people involved in. It's the angetic.

[A]

A sociopath. So he knows he can, like, charm and manipulate people to kind of believe whatever, right?

[B]

And then so when she dies, he can. They're all gonna be like, well, yeah, Bill knew about this. Bill knew Principal Smith was gonna kill her.

[A]

This is what he feared all along.

[B]

So this is what happened. And Bill was right.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Instead of being like, bill is creeping us all out. He has a gun. All right, so Mr. Veladis was cool. In 1986, while in prison for his other conviction of the armed robbery, Principal Smith is convicted of conspiring with Bill to kill the Reinert family. So he's convicted as well.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

Both men tried to pin the murders on the other, claiming they were set up by the other one. He's. Principal Smith is convicted of three counts of murder and given the death penalty.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Cut to six years later. This isn't ending it.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

There's more fucking twisted.

[A]

I never want it to end.

[B]

I know, right? In 1992, good old 92. An antique dealer. Like, this is so. What the fuck? I can't even believe this. An antique dealer who, you know, is just like. He's like American pickers, dudes, you know, like, claude, antique dealer sounds really nice.

[A]

You know what? I'll give you 800 for that propeller.

[B]

Yeah, it's worth 10,000. Well, who's going to buy it?

[A]

Yeah, you're a dumb farmer. You don't know that.

[B]

I hate the guy I'm working with. Have you watched that show? It's the fucking they hate each other fight. No, but you can, like, feel it. They hate each other. Okay? A quote antique dealer is hired to clean out that. The addict belonging to the state detective, like, the main state detective that was involved in this case in the Reinhardt murders.

[A]

The attic.

[B]

The attic. Did I say addict? God, why do I always do that? Why do I always do that? Sorry. No, I'm glad you corrected me.

[A]

I just want to make sure.

[B]

That's what. It's a running. It's a running. He didn't hire him to clean out his addict.

[A]

Some heroin addict.

[B]

We already have addicts in this story.

[A]

That's right, but they're just. They've disappeared insanely enough.

[B]

And they're not in the attic.

[A]

But this is. The fact that you're even introducing an antique dealer that is about to clean out an attic. Dude. Is my favorite.

[B]

Please go, dude. Yes. In the attic, there's a box containing a duplicate of the comb found under Susan investigative notes contradicting prosecution testimony and adhesive, quote lifters, which I think is like tape that they. Containing grains of sand and quartz from the bottom of Susan's feet. Feet that they never turned over to the defense.

[A]

Why?

[B]

So I don't understand the duplicate comb, but maybe that just. I don't understand that part.

[A]

They went and got another one. Maybe to prove that it wasn't. To find it.

[B]

Just.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Yeah, but whatever reason they had it. And then contradictory notes. Fine, but the lifters, okay, Bill said he was at the beach that fucking weekend.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And they found sand in quartz that could have tested the fucking sand at that Jersey shore or beach. Why does she have that on her feet?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

My feeling is, did she leave that night to confront him? He was there with his living girlfriend. He fucking freaks out and kills them.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, she, he doesn't expect. Basically his little separate lives overlap and.

[B]

She'S like, you gotta tell them now or I'm gonna fucking leave you. Or I'm gonna tell them myself or.

[A]

Just, I'm going to change that will and all the other paperwork. Cause I. I made a mistake. And you're a scum.

[B]

Yeah. And he freaks out. But the other people at the beach, I have no doubt they would have if they had known. They would have said something because it was that guy who testified against him. His live in girlfriend didn't seem like the kind of. She ended up testifying against him as well. Like they weren't scumbags who were in on it. All right, so Principal Smith's defense attorney says that this could have been. This could have placed the murder in the New Jersey shore. Right. Which would have helped Principal Smith get off. So after serving six years on death row, Principal Smith is released in 92. Even though we don't know he didn't have anything to do with it. She was chained up and he was into chains. His fucking comb was in the car. Or what if Bill put it in there on purpose?

[A]

Right, he kind of placed it in there. Yeah.

[B]

Maybe they had more of them. Right?

[A]

Maybe there's a can of those combs.

[B]

Because he was saying that Principal Smith's gonna kill her. Hey, look what happens. And maybe the, the pin was put in Principal Smith's car.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Dude, I'm contradicting my whole.

[A]

Well, no, but I mean is if he was telling people that many months beforehand, he was probably collecting things to set him up, he could have been collecting things to set him up before. And that's very realistic.

[B]

Right. So he's released in 92 because the evidence. Prosecutors may have exonerated him. And through the appeals court. The appeals court agreed that there was unethical conduct. But they also said that, quote, nothing untrustworthy about Smith's. There was nothing untrustworthy about Smith's conviction for murder. So they were like, we fucking think he did it, but he got an unfair trial, and so we have to let him go.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So they. So for some whatever reasons and whatever evidence they thought he. He was. They were working together.

[A]

All right.

[B]

Along with a box found, the 911 tape of the call about Susan's body was mistakenly destroyed. Her body was. Here's the fucking second time this has happened in very short time. Accidentally cremated.

[A]

Ugh.

[B]

Wait. Yeah. And the autopsy audio tape was lost until after the trial.

[A]

Well, that's three things. That's too many things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

One thing, maybe, where you're like, oh, that's bad.

[B]

Cremate a woman.

[A]

Well, you don't accidentally do it.

[B]

You don't, do you?

[A]

I don't think so.

[B]

No.

[A]

I mean, I don't think so.

[B]

Like, there's basic paperwork. You don't just toss a body in the crematorium.

[A]

No, but you toss 20 grand toward a person that's running that crematorium and then say, look the other way while I do what I need to get done.

[B]

20 grand is a lot of money or something.

[A]

Yeah, like, how else?

[B]

But.

[A]

But also just the combination of. Because also then the autopsy where the coroner is talking and going, now there's mild abrasions on this and that, so.

[B]

There'S no way to read. It's like they can't dig her up and give her an autopsy again.

[A]

They can't check anything, like bite marks or anything that would actually indicate or, like DNA.

[B]

The Reinert case becomes the biggest investigation in the history of Pennsylvania State Police. In 1987, a miniseries based on the Echoes in the Darkness book comes out, which I can only find 10 minutes of online. Karen, you would fucking lose your mind if you saw this.

[A]

Who was in it?

[B]

All right. I wrote every single person down for you. I knew you would ask that. Oh, my God. It's episode 75. We finally got in sync.

[A]

Yes. It only took us 74.

[B]

All right. Susan is played by Stalker Channing.

[A]

Oh, yes.

[B]

I knew you'd love that. Bill. Old Patches Bill is played by Peter Coyote.

[A]

Yes, Peter Coyote.

[B]

I don't know him.

[A]

He's. Yes, you do. He's the narrator for the Oscars.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Coming up next, he's like. And he's like a very. I think he's from theater mostly, but you've seen things. He's super low key.

[B]

He looks like Ray Romano. Is that.

[A]

Yeah, okay. He's like Ray Romano's arty brother.

[B]

Because I watched the 10 minutes with, which were so good, and, like, there are so many other convoluted points to this whole story that, like, I couldn't even get to, that weren't really part of it. But they're. I think they're in the miniseries. I'm so bummed. I can't find it. You know, someone listening has it on cassette. Their mom recorded it when it came out. Yeah, with the commercials. We need you to fucking upload it.

[A]

Do you imagine with the commercials, Sorry.

[B]

What year it came out in? 87. The commercials would make me barf. I would be so happy.

[A]

It would be. Well, it would be new code.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It would be LA Looks Hair gel.

[B]

Yes. It would be whatever market that the mom recorded it in. The fucking panic News coming up next after this miniseries. Yes, your children's backs are fucked.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Give up your children.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay. Okay. Oh, and then Principal Smith is played by Robert Loggia.

[A]

Robert Loggia.

[B]

Loggia, yes. Who's he?

[A]

You know him. He. I won't be able to think of anything offhand. He is the guy. He's short. He has had white hair for most of his career. And he got a dog like this. He's got a big. Kind of a big nose. He has an Italian feel to him.

[B]

Because he's not in the 10 minutes. He's not in that one at all.

[A]

He's the cop.

[B]

No, he's the fucking principal.

[A]

He's Principal Smith.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's so good. Oh, my God. We have to get our hands on this. You know where we can go? Where we can go the Museum of Television.

[B]

Ooh, where's that?

[A]

It's in Beverly Hills. You go there, you put. You fill out a card, you say, this is what I want to watch. They take it in. They have a library of, like, almost everything that's ever been on tv.

[B]

I did not know this. You.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it's right in Beverly Hills.

[B]

What about the, like, one of the last cool movie rental places? It's next to the new art in Santa Monica on Santa Monica Boulevard.

[A]

Cinemania or something.

[B]

Josh Fadem worked there for a long time because he loved it.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I'm talking about.

[A]

Yes. Cinephile Cinema. No, Cinephile is the family.

[B]

I don't remember. Yeah. We'll go there. Field trip.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Class.

[A]

They won't have it, though.

[B]

David, you're driving.

[A]

Tv. Ish.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I think it's too, like, obscure.

[B]

You're right.

[A]

Oh, you're going to find that. Yeah.

[B]

All right. Bill dies in Prison in 1998.

[A]

Principal Smith.

[B]

No, Bill fucking. Patches.

[A]

Patches.

[B]

Sorry. Bill Patches. Patches. Dies in 98.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Principal Smith dies a free man. Both maintain their innocence the entire. Their entire lives. They didn't even give us the fucking, like, deathbed confession. All right. But you're ready for the. I saved the creepiest for the last part because it's the creepiest thing I've ever heard in my life.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And there's a photograph of it online. Oh, all right. So Bill Patches, the fucking creepy lover, dies, his cells being cleaned out, and a photograph is found hidden in his belongings. The photograph depicts a stone marker. Looks like a. Like a small gothic kind of angel stone kind of marker. Resembles a hooded figure worn away, kind of. The stone is surrounded by fallen leaves with woods in the background. So it's the middle of some random wood. And that photo alone, it was. It was. They found. The cops were like. It was processed before in like, 86, before he went to prison. And some people think it's a photograph of the location of little Carol and Michael's graves. But investigators sent it out and they've been unable to locate the marker as of yet.

[A]

So it's like, hidden in a forest somewhere.

[B]

And he had a fucking photograph of it the entire time he was in prison.

[A]

So he did it.

[B]

He did it. And he knows where the fucking bodies are.

[A]

And that's his. What's the thing? We forgot this once before, and people were yelling at us. That's his souvenir. His, you know, his serial killer trinket souvenir. Yeah, I think it's souvenir. Whatever. Or the thing that they keep.

[B]

Then I was thinking, like, how creepy would it have been if, like, they'd killed them together and. And Principal Smith had buried the body and he gave it to Bill in like, a warning. Like, if you fucking tell anyone what happened, like, everyone will know about the dead kids. Here's the photograph of where they are buried because of you. Or maybe Bill didn't want them to die.

[A]

Maybe. But don't you think the way those kinds of killers do it, they keep the keepsakes. It's about. They love that thing. It's a positive thing. Yeah. If it was a threat, it wouldn't be as good. Like, he had to sneak it into Prison.

[B]

It's probably in one of his books. In his bookshelf or something like that. Do you think that two people did it? I think that only one of these creepy men did it.

[A]

I think it sounds like they knew they were in on something together. They. So say it was some weird sex ring. They were involved.

[B]

A lot of money to be split up between them.

[A]

Who had the money?

[B]

Well, Bill was gonna get all 700. Over $700,000 in life insurance money.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Right. So. All right, so say they were in a sex ring.

[A]

Something where they both had information on each other. Then it's like, Patches is like, I'll give you 50 grand if you. I have to set this thing. And this is like. It's almost like a stranger's on a train. If you take care of these bodies, I. I can be out of town. There will be no connection. One of those kind of. But it's a bad plan because it's like, yeah, we all work at the same school.

[B]

I think that Bill. I mean. Sorry, I think that Principal Smith's almost seems too obvious because he's a fucking. His children disappear, too. His heroin addict daughter, and he's robbing banks and shit. It's almost like, why would you also do these other things? Or is it because you think you can get away with that shit? Which you almost did.

[A]

Right. I mean, the robbing the bank thing is insanity because usually if you're a bank robber, you're not going to then have a double life as a high school principal. It's like, that's so fascinating.

[B]

And the fact that he owns all kinds of weird sex stuff. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, that is fucking insane.

[B]

Yeah. So that's the Mainline murders, AKA the Reinhardt murders.

[A]

And it was. Sorry, that was Pennsylvania.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I know. Is that. How have we never heard of that?

[A]

I've never heard. I feel like when you said the thing about the little girl's museum pin being under the thing, that kind of.

[B]

Made me go a little something.

[A]

Ding. But I would have remembered all that other crazy stuff.

[B]

Yeah. I've never heard of so many weird fucking things. And one. One simple murder about insurance money. Never heard so many crazy things going on.

[A]

Well, also, if. So she leaves her house with her kids and gets into the car.

[B]

Sounds like it was in a hurry in the hailstorm. But I only saw that in, like, one thing.

[A]

Okay. Because. Also.

[B]

But it was late at night.

[A]

And also, if there's a hailstorm, that means he went to the beach during a hail, like during the winter.

[B]

He Went to New Jersey, which I think, I think the beach, I like looked it up on a map, was like four hours.

[A]

But I mean.

[B]

Yeah, I. I know.

[A]

Why did he pick that?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If it's winter time, why don't you go skiing?

[B]

Totally.

[A]

What are you doing? Like.

[B]

Yeah. Did he plan the trip? I want to know. Like, did they go there often? Did they ever do that before? Yeah, like, clearly there's this thing of like your spouse or your loved one gets killed and you happen to be out of town on a vacation. It's like you can't have a convenient alibi and expect that to. That to be your only. The only thing.

[A]

They look insolid.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, and also because you're. The alibi is about killing your secret lover while you're on vacation with your other secret lover. And then there's other secret lovers. Like all that. There's so much going on without talking about Principal Smith and his underwear. If we don't even get into that.

[B]

There'S so much going on, we'll have a whole episode that the story we do together is Principal Smith is in underwear. In his underwear.

[A]

But I'm telling you, that final moment of the picture, them finding the picture something. Never see it online, okay?

[B]

Just put in mainline murders and you'll see it.

[A]

How can somebody on Reddit haven't found out exactly where that is yet?

[B]

No shit.

[A]

I mean you would just think that people in Pennsylvania would just be combing.

[B]

The fucking furnace or on the way from Pennsylvania yet to New Jersey. Where?

[A]

The beach. The beach place?

[B]

Yeah. Like somewhere along that route. So if someone go find it and like then we'll. You guys, if murderinos solve this, I don't even mean us, but if like some murderinos solve this and find the bodies, it'll be go out there, go forth and dig. And I mean this was in 1986 though, so it's probably not there anymore.

[A]

But if it's a stone marker and also so creepy a cloak figure. Also, if you find the stone marker, if you find any Stalker Channing made for TV movie about murder, whether it's this one or another, I'm interested in watching it.

[B]

Email my favorite murder gmail.com. put in that. Put in the title Stalker Channing and the subject line Stalker Channing or found the dead children.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It's just so sad that she put them. That she made these decisions out of her naivety and yet she's a victim, obviously. But like these kids have no choice with any of it.

[A]

If she was getting the full sociopath psychopath hypnosis deal where it's like, you know, like Ricky Tikki Tavi, when that snake goes up and you can't stop staring at the eyes. It's that thing where she walked away from a whole life to be with this man who was a complete criminal and creepo and was turning it over entirely. I mean, there's. That's what I would like to know about and see up close, because there's a story there. And she probably was a smart woman.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know.

[A]

I mean.

[B]

Well, one thing that's like one little detail I say that really made me sad was that when he. When he went to court for the $25,000, like from stealing it from her, Susan's ex husband, like, went to fight against him. So even after they divorced, he was like, fuck this guy.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, she cheated on me, but this guy is a fucking creep and a piece of shit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, not even trying to get the money himself.

[A]

He's just like, she's a con man that, like, hurt the woman I love.

[B]

She was. He was still fighting for her. And it just made me so sad that it's.

[A]

The whole thing is incredibly sad. Also. Just remember in the 70s, like, women. It's not. The parenting situation was so different in that way where it was like having people had affairs or, you know, made these kind of. It was the me generation too, where it was like, I'm gonna. You know, I started out as a housewife in the 60s and that was all fine.

[B]

I gotta have a chance to.

[A]

Yeah, why can't I have a life? And that. And I'm sure he played on that. And it was. I'm sure she was trying to balance all of that.

[B]

I hope I don't sound like I'm victim blaming. It's just.

[A]

No, no, no.

[B]

I just don't want to forget these two. Sweet. And if you see. If you. If you Google it, you'll see their photos. And they're just like these sweet baby angels who just like. Who knows where they went. They fucking disappeared. And they never even got a, you know, funeral from the grandparents and their dad. It's not just. It's so sad, it's horrible. Yeah. So. Yeah. Mainline murders. Wow. Yeah.

[A]

Wow. Well done.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

That was crazy.

[B]

Thank you. I know, right?

[A]

Okay, we're back. Georgia, are there any updates for this case?

[B]

Yes, there are updates. And actually from our conversation we were just having about people writing in their side of the story, when I was researching this, I looked through our emails and there are so many margarinos who were connected to this story and that they lived there at the time or their parents went to high school with, you know, this and that. And so it was really interesting. We got an email from a murderino named Elise A. Miller, who was there at the time and wrote a book called Tracing the Bones. It's a novel and she based it off of this case. So I think that was really interesting. And as for the case, the murder of Susan Reinert and the disappearance of her children, Karen and Michael remain unsolved. Sadly. State police at Harrisburg continue to offer a $5,000 reward for information to find the bodies of Karen and Michael. And Netflix is in early development with Andrew Sadrosky, who wrote Manhunt about the Unabomber and Aggregate Films, which is Jason Bateman's production company for a limited series inspired by the mainline murders. And when I was re reading about this, it's such a fucking wild case. I mean, and heartbreaking. And then I also mentioned being unable to find the stalker Channing made for TV movie called Echoes in the Darkness about this case. And it's now available on Tubi. So check that out. Wow. Okay, so now let's get into Karen's story about Spider Savage. The most important part of home security is the protection that starts before anything ever reaches your door.

[A]

Real prevention starts with Simplisafe.

[B]

Unlike other systems that make you do the monitoring, Simplisafe's team handles it for you. Even if you miss the alert, Simplisafe's.

[A]

Monitoring agents can step in right away to stop a break in before it starts.

[B]

There are no long term contracts or hidden fees. And Simplisafe was named best home security system by U.S. news & World Report for five years running. The people who are just going to try it, see if they like it, maybe they give it to someone that they love for the holidays, like they're going to keep it. I guarantee there is nothing that feels better than being able to check in on your house. But you can't always be monitoring it yourself. So I do love that I can can just count on Simplisafe to be monitoring it for.

[A]

Me. Yes. And the idea that they're actually experts, so it's like I might hear a noise and freak out, but they actually see on the video that it's like, no, that's just a raccoon, everything's.

[B]

Fine.

[A]

Right? It's that assurance you get where you don't have to be freaking out. And this month only take 50% off on any new.

[B]

System. This is one of the best prices you will ever see for SimpliSafe. Don't miss.

[A]

It. Hit simplisafe.com fav again. That's simplisafe.com fav and lock in your.

[B]

Discount. There's no safe like goodbye on December.

[A]

19Th. Based on the bestselling novel the Housemaid, Amanda Seyfried and Sydney Sweeney star in a wildly entertaining and twisted thriller where perfection is an illusion and nothing is as it.

[B]

Seems. Trying to escape her past, Millie, played by Sydney Sweeney, accepts a job as a live in housemaid for the wealthy couple Nina and Andrew Winchester, played by Amanda Seyfried and Brandon.

[A]

Skinar. What begins as a dream job quickly unravels into something far more dangerous. A sexy, seductive game of sequence, secrets, scandal and.

[B]

Power. The Housemaid is full of shocking twists that will leave you guessing until the very.

[A]

End. Can you keep a.

[B]

Secret? The Housemaid is a theatrical experience you do not want to.

[A]

Miss. The Housemaid Rated R. Only in theaters December.

[B]

19Th. Get tickets now.

[A]

Goodbye. This show is sponsored by Midi.

[B]

Health. If you've ever left a doctor's office feeling unheard, unseen or somehow at.

[A]

Fault, you're not alone and you deserve better. That's where Midi Health comes.

[B]

In. MIDI is a women's telehealth clinic built specifically for midlife.

[A]

Care. For too long, women's serious midlife health issues have been trivialized, ignored and met with a just deal with it.

[B]

Attitude. Many of us have been made to feel ashamed or forgotten. In fact, even today, 75% of women seeking care for menopause and perimenopause issues are left entirely.

[A]

Untreated. It's time for a change. It's time for.

[B]

Mitty. MIDI is not just a healthcare provider, it's a women's telehealth clinic founded and supported by world class leaders in women's.

[A]

Health. At midi, real clinicians listen to your symptoms and offer personalized, data driven care not one size fits all.

[B]

Advice. Mitti is backed by world class experts in women's health and focuses on everything from hormone therapy to weight management and lifestyle coaching. Ready to feel your best and write your second act.

[A]

Script? Visit join MIDI.com today to book your personalized insurance covered virtual Visit. That's join MIDI.com MIDI the Care Women Deserve Goodbye.

[B]

Goodbye. Family stories don't always get passed down, even the ones that matter.

[A]

Most. That's why Storyworth Memoirs is an important gift for loved ones this holiday.

[B]

Season. What's great about Storyworth is that even though they've been around for years, they're still innovating. This year they added a bunch of new features to make storytelling even easier with personalized questions and magic editor. What's not changing customers love for Storyworth. They've printed over a million books and preserved 35 million family stories since their founding 13 years.

[A]

Ago. They have over 48,000 five star reviews on Trustpilot, Wirecutter, the Strategist, CNN, Fox News, and more. Agree. Storyworth is the perfect gift for people you love.

[B]

Most. It really is such a good gift because we all want to know our family stories, the important ones, the loved ones for years to come. And you, you can't just ask them the question. You're gonna get it wrong, you're gonna forget. You have to like, get it down. And Storyworth does it, but in a really beautiful layout and a really beautiful.

[A]

Way. Yeah. They give you these prompts that make it really easy for you to interview your family. Yeah, they like ask the questions so that the story comes out really.

[B]

Easily. Give your loved ones a unique keepsake you'll all cherish for.

[A]

Years. Storyworth memoirs right now save $10 or more during their holiday sale. When you go to storyworth.com mfm.

[B]

That'S storyworth.com mfm to save 10 dol your order good.

[A]

Goodbye. Mine's a little more. Well, mine's. Mine's one that you've seen. Now that I'm working again, I'm doing those ones where I'm like, what do I know? Really? Well, because I've seen it on every true crime.

[B]

Show. Everyone loves those. It's so fun to like recognize one and be like, yes, tell me about.

[A]

It. So this is one everyone knows, which is the murder of Spider.

[B]

Savage. I'm sorry.

[A]

What? The murder of Spider Savage. He is a female famous downhill.

[B]

Skier. Dude, I don't know.

[A]

This. Are you serious? Wait, so this ski, this is taken. There's a Power, Privilege and justice hosted by Dominic Dunn, one of the greatest true crime series ever. Because Dominic Dunne, the author, so good, sits there staring into camera, doing interstitial narration, and he looks like the most livid individual of all.

[B]

Time. It's almost like he's blaming you what you did.

[A]

Wrong. Yes. He's angry at the justicism. He's angry at injustice in general. And he's just disgusted. But at the same time, he loves like Beverly Hills. Yeah. Like he's a bit of a status guy or he's a bit of a. Cause he was A famous author. So he has a little bit of like I was at that party and I saw like he has a firsthand thing in a lot of these stories, but it's not frivolous. He's very serious and he's the one whose daughter was murdered by her ex boyfriend, which I. Did we do that. Dominique Dunn. Yes, we did her.

[B]

Murder. Yes.

[A]

Yeah. So basically he has. He was like. He was played by, I.

[B]

Think. Oh, it was so.

[A]

Good. Jeremy Nathan Lane played him in the O.J. ryan Murphy.

[B]

O.J.

[A]

Show. So brilliantly. Because he was there for the whole OJ thing. Yeah, he's. And I think he's mostly a Vanity Fair off writer. Yeah, I'm not sure he's a very famous like true crime writer and writer badass. So if you. I think there's a. I mean I was able to watch Power, Privilege and justice on YouTube although everyone had the same incredibly deep voice. So I think that's the way they got away with like the last one I tried to watch where the screen was diagonal and it was. Oh no, you know, it was slightly altered so that you could watch this one. It was like they basically slightly altered everyone's voice so it sounded like everyone was in the witness protection program. But they weren't being. They weren't in the.

[B]

Dark.

[A]

Yeah. So anyway, got it if you.

[B]

Can. So far I don't remember this one. So let's fucking have that. And I'm excited.

[A]

That. Okay, good. All right, so roughly around the same time a year ago, Sunday, March 21, 1976, Vladimir Pig, Peter Spider Savage, a 31 year old champion alpine ski racer, returned home from a training session to Starwood, a gated community in the ritzy resort town of Aspen, Colorado. Oh, I also got some of this information from a website called Shit. Shit, that's a great.

[B]

Website. I didn't write it.

[A]

Down. It was shit shit dot.

[B]

Com. Don't go to that. Please don't fucking go.

[A]

To. We can't be responsible. No, it was called Snow Blitzed or Snow Brained or. So I'll figure it out and tell you guys. But it's basically like a skier's website. Okay, okay, okay. So he comes back to his home in a gated community called Starwood in Aspen. So it's like Aspen, Colorado, as most people know, is an incredibly rich white ski resort resort. Kind of like one percenter.

[B]

Town.

[A]

Yeah. And this guy was kind of the star of that town. So he, within this rich ritzy place, lived in a gated.

[B]

Community. Oh, because he's like, I'm scared of all you. Not rich people. I need a.

[A]

Gate. I'm scared of you people that only make $600,000 a year. So, yeah, that's like the people who live. They work in Beverly Hills, but they live in Bel Air. Oh, my God. Okay. So he was. He was stopping home, at his home in Starwood to change because he had been skiing and he'd gone to a party. He was going to go home and take a shower because he was. Later on, he planned to meet his skiing coach for dinner. The chief of police, who is in this episode of Power, Privilege and Justice, is talking about how he was in his police cruiser. He hears a call come out over the radio that there's been a shooting at Starwood. So he knows, you know, he immediately races.

[B]

Over. Cause he's like, these people pay more money to the police.

[A]

Department. No, Georgia, I get there.

[B]

Quick. God damn.

[A]

It. Well, but it is kind of that way. This.

[B]

Is. There's the kind of town where if something happens, nothing happens bad there.

[A]

Probably. Exactly. So if anything, someone shoots a gun straight up into the air, they're like, we gotta process this immediately. And it is a little bit of like shadows of JonBenet in that way where. Where the police don't have. It's like, of course, they obviously do technically have this jurisdiction, but rich people kind of do what they want. They lawyer up, they fly places on their private jets and like, the police are just have to kind of do their.

[B]

Best. They're public servants to these people who make $800,000 a.

[A]

Year. Their paycheck is paid with the taxes that those people.

[B]

Pay.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. So when they arrive, they go to. They find that they're arriving at the home of Spider Savage, who lives there with his live in girlfriend of four years, singer, actress Claudine.

[B]

Langeais. I have never heard of these.

[A]

People. Are you.

[B]

Serious? Never heard of this.

[A]

One? I've definitely seen this forensic file several times. And I've seen this power of privilege and justice at least.

[B]

Once. I fucking missed this.

[A]

One. It's a bit of a.

[B]

Classic. I'm.

[A]

Excited. So they find clothes, Claudine slumped in the hallway, crying, oh, no. And then they walk back to the bathroom off the master bedroom, and they find Spider, who's been shot in the abdomen and bleeding out on the bathroom floor. Shot once, already lost a ton of blood. And finally the ambulance arrives. Claudine begs the police to let her ride along in the ambulance with him. And they let her, which I think These days, you know, this is the late 70s. These days, it'd be like, no, no, no. You're the only person on the.

[B]

Scene. Unless it's a kid.

[A]

Probably. Right. But even then, if you're the only person on the scene, it's like, you gotta answer some questions. You don't just get to do whatever you.

[B]

Want.

[A]

Yes. So they find the gun, which is an antique Luger, in the bathroom. But before they get a chance to thoroughly examine the head house, they get a call from the hospital reporting that Spider Savage has died on the way to the hospital. So they. The district attorney goes to the hospital, finds Claudine, and he starts to question her about what happened at the house that.

[B]

Night. Can I just say, it's a really interesting thing and it's almost smart when people who kill someone, they don't die till they're in the hospital because then they have to trample the scene. They have to put their hands all over this person's dying body to try to resuscitate them. They get them out of there immediately so they don't see how they fall. They don't see details that they would see if the person was already dead when they went into.

[A]

That. That's.

[B]

Right. You know what I.

[A]

Mean? They're still.

[B]

Alive. Yeah. It's like.

[A]

Almost. Yeah, it's almost horribly.

[B]

Better. It's. It's.

[A]

Yeah. As opposed to. Freeze this. Tape it. Everybody stay.

[B]

Away. The body said, we have time to not touch anything.

[A]

Okay. Right.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. So the district attorney finds Claudine and he questions her, and she is anxious to explain that Spider was going out of town, and so he was actually showing her how to use the gun so that she would be safe while he was.

[B]

Gone. Oh.

[A]

Sure. While he was showing her how to use the gun, it went off.

[B]

Accidentally. I mean, it could.

[A]

Happen. It could happen. It was an old antique.

[B]

Gun. I have to say that. Yeah. I want to know how to gun. How a gun works. If I was going to be.

[A]

Alone.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Yeah. Well, the police are immediately suspicious because these people live in a gated community in Aspen, Colorado.

[B]

So. Fair. I bet they have dogs.

[A]

Yeah. Yes, there's dogs, defensive dogs, there's.

[B]

Gates. It's like whole.

[A]

Community. Everyone in the whole city makes a shit ton of money or is like a ski.

[B]

Bum.

[A]

Yeah. Who makes slightly less amount of money. So they're like, not sure. Then the autopsy comes back and shows that Spider Savage was bending over and had his back turned to the doorway when he was.

[B]

Shot. How do they know that they're so.

[A]

Smart. It was a downward. The bullet went in in a downward fashion because it was one shot in the abdomen. But it got his. It's a part of his heart, I believe I already written down. But it basically, like, went through his.

[B]

Heart. So he's bending over forward, his butt toward.

[A]

Her. Right, I.

[B]

Believe. Okay.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. So the police have no choice but to say that's premeditated and something incredibly suspicious is going on. So Claudine is arrested. She's charged with homicide and criminal negligence. And she immediately hires prominent Aspen attorney Robinson Austin, who gets her released on bond. Which the cops said they knew she was gonna get released. That's just part of it. But they were like. Cause he was saying, you can't arrest her. This is her boyfriend. She's really upset. And they're like, no, we're arresting her, even if you're gonna take her out of here. So it turns out she was married to the singer Andy Williams, who you may know. He was famous in the 60s. He's the one that sang Moon River. He was, like, a crooner in the 50s and 60s. And he was up there with, like, Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin and all those guys. He was just a little more. He wasn't a Rat Pack guy. He was a little more white bread. He was, like, a little more all American. And he had a TV show that for his. The Andy Williams Christmas special for years was the number one rated television show of all time, until one of the Super Bowls knocked it out of its.

[B]

Place. Can we watch the. Those in succession? After we watch the Lifetime Stalker.

[A]

Channing movies, then we go into the Andy Williams specials. We can. Because his wife, Claudine Lange, is on them with.

[B]

Him. Wait, okay.

[A]

Holy. Yes. That's her first.

[B]

Husband. So we're watching the. Out of.

[A]

Those. So when she's released from the. From the police department apartment on bond, they call up the Aspen airport and have them reopen because it's late at night so that Andy Williams can fly in to Aspen to go and meet her and get her or, like, you know, go meet up with her. So that's what I'm talking about. Where it's like, now we're in rich people territory where, like, people are kind of doing what they.

[B]

Want. Get a airport open. Give that a try. Right.

[A]

Now.

[B]

Yeah. Anyone see what you can.

[A]

Do? Yeah, call over to Burbank Airport right now and see if you can find your keys.

[B]

Okay. See if we can get a fucking phone.

[A]

Answer. See if you can get Southwest on the.

[B]

Line. Do as much as you can and then let us.

[A]

Know. So see if you can get.

[B]

Southwest.

[A]

Yeah. So the police go back to the house and they get a warrant and they start to search the house. And they immediately. And some of the cops had seen it when they were originally on the scene. Her diary's sitting on top of the dress, and it's a big, like, ledger sized diary. And so one of the cops. So the cops are taking pictures of the whole scene and processing the scene. One of the cops takes the diary off the top of the dresser and is looking through it of like, is this what I think it is? Sees that it is. Realizes it's her writing, her most private.

[B]

Thoughts. Why the fuck. Why does anyone have a diary for real? Stop it, you stupid idiot. Go to a therapist if you're.

[A]

Going to have a diary. Diary. Why would it ever, ever, ever be out.

[B]

Anywhere? No. And have it be a ledger? You think you're that fucking.

[A]

Important?

[B]

Right? Like.

[A]

Claudine. Well, this is Claudine, so I.

[B]

Don'T think she did it because she sounds really.

[A]

Naive. Okay. So while they're processing and taking photographs of the crime scene and of the bedroom, the photographer takes a picture of the dresser with no diary on top of it because the cop had picked it up and was looking through it. Then the cop put it back, and then more pictures were taken with the.

[B]

Diary.

[A]

Okay. Love.

[B]

It.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. I don't know. Why did I put my paper.

[B]

Down? Because you're telling me the best.

[A]

Story. I had to use my hands to show you what a book looks.

[B]

Like. That was a ledger. Could tell by the way your hands.

[A]

Were. Right. It was nice. It was.

[B]

Big. Oh.

[A]

Yeah. You can see that string that goes down the.

[B]

Middle.

[A]

So. So that's. That'll come back later. Okay. And also there was a couple other things. Okay. So about Claudine. So we'll learn. We'll learn about her a little bit. Claudine Langer was born in Paris. She moved to Las Vegas when she was 18. She won. She wanted to be a.

[B]

Star. Oh.

[A]

Jesus. She's a singer. She's gorgeous. So she looks like she has a bit of an Amanda Pete look to.

[B]

Her. Like, strong.

[A]

Features. Yes. But like a flared nostril. Very sexy. But also very soft spoken. And had kind of like a soft spoken singing voice. And the woman who. There was somebody that worked with her at the Folies Bergere at the Tropicana in Vegas, which was like the big burlesque show in Las Vegas at.

[B]

The time, and this is before Las Vegas was, like, cheap and gross. It was, like, classy as.

[A]

Fuck. This was the late 50s or early.

[B]

60S.

[A]

Jesus. So it was, like, the best part of Las Vegas. Or, I mean, like, yeah, whatever. The classiest time. This is when people wore, like, tuxedos to casinos and stuff. And. And she became a star very quickly because she was, like, the French.

[B]

Girl.

[A]

Right. Everyone else is, like, twisting it.

[B]

Around. Someone make a. What's it called? A remix of what Karen just.

[A]

Did. You don't have to. Don't worry about it. Okay. So one night, Claudine is driving home from her job at the burlesque show. Her car breaks down, and then a good Samaritan pulls over to help her out. It's Andy Williams. Oh, so she's the lucky.

[B]

Lady. So.

[A]

Hot. So they're married on Christmas day of 1961, and she's 31 at the time, and she's.

[B]

18. He's 31, she's.

[A]

18.

[B]

Yeah. Damn.

[A]

Damn. This was Vegas in the early 60s. The next year, Andy Williams released Moon river, which is, like, legendary. All the money, and he was one of the most famous singers at the time. They got a mansion in Malibu. And then in 1963, Andy Williams got his own TV show. And Claudine had a baby the same year. Year and another baby the next year. But she still wanted to be a performer, so she would appear on the Andy Williams show with him as his.

[B]

Wife. I cannot wait to watch.

[A]

These.

[B]

Yeah. I bet she had so many female orgasms, it was.

[A]

Ridiculous. Well, because she's French, and she was raised to be in charge of her own.

[B]

Orgasm.

[A]

Yes. And to eat a lot of vegetables. Sure.

[B]

Okay. Sorry I keep bringing that up. It's so gross. Go.

[A]

On. No, it's all right. It's not gross. That's the whole point of our.

[B]

Podcast. You're right.

[A]

Proud. Proud Andy Williams Christmas show. Oh, I told you that. That already. He's basically. This guy is like, everybody's favorite thing to have on tv, because it's easy to have on tv. Like when you. Andy Williams had, like, a Dean Martin quality, but not racy, not. Not drunky. He was more like the guy from.

[B]

Church. It wasn't like, soiree. What's. What's the.

[A]

Word?

[B]

Swave.

[A]

Swa. Yeah, Those were all.

[B]

Words. Yep. But he's not.

[A]

That. No, he's white bread. Dominic Dunn. At this point, part of the privilege, power, privilege and justice goes. I used to see them at parties in Beverly Hills and thought they were beautiful. So they were kind of like a early 60s Hollywood power.

[B]

Couple. Yeah, I love.

[A]

It. They have a third child in 1969 and then later that year they shock all of Hollywood by announcing that they're getting divorced. Because on the Andy Williams show it was all very family and you.

[B]

Know, it was like the Osmonds set their chest, man. I am that.

[A]

One. You always read for a.

[B]

Child. We fucking ruined.

[A]

Shit. So soon after her divorce in 1969, she takes her three kids and moves to Aspen. That's where Spider Savage was living at the.

[B]

Time. Spider savage in the 60s. It's such a crazy.

[A]

Name. Okay, so he's the local hero, he's the golden boy. So a little bit about Spider Savage, he's the reason he has that nickname is because he was born premature. And when his father saw him, he said he was just all arms and legs. He looked like a little spider. So from, from a baby, they called him Spider, which is the cutest. He grew up skiing at Edelweiss ski area in Kybers, California, near modern day Sierra at Tahoe ski resort. So it's just basically, it's basically the, you know, that part of Northern California, but the east mountains where it's all. That's kind of what everybody does up there. It's like snowboarding and skiing all the time. And he kind of kicked off like in the 70s. Skiing all of a sudden got really popular in this way where like everyone, like when I was in grammar school, like high school boys would wear ski jackets with their lift tickets still on the zipper. It was like that where it was, it was that early. It was heading into the early 80s where being rich got really popular too. Like Izod shirts. This was the pre Izod shirt way of having status was like if you.

[B]

Skied. Yeah, because, because there's like resorts. That's it. You don't go out for the.

[A]

Day. Yeah, yeah. You ha. You have to have money to.

[B]

Ski.

[A]

Yeah. So Spider side, which was like the king of skiing and, and really like made it popular. Here he was in 1968, he made the Olymp the Winter Olympic team. Placed fifth in the slalom event. He was blue eyed, blonde haired, good looking, very skilled with the ladies. And he was the most famous skier in America in 1971. That's when he moved to. Oh, I forgot to say he torched. This is from that skiing website. The quote was he torched the ski racing competition in high school and was taken on scholarship to the Colorado University at Boulder to ski with Billy Kidd So he basically was, you know, like a little skiing.

[B]

Savant. What's up.

[A]

Boulder? Come.

[B]

On. See you soon.

[A]

So. Yeah, that's right. Heads up, Boulder. We're gonna come ski with you.

[B]

Never. Never.

[A]

Ever. So in 71, after his big successes and he's starting to make money and how he had a ton of sponsors. And also you see these pictures, he was just cool looking. Like, he had a real chiseled jaw. He kind of looked like Dennis Wilson, the drummer for the. For the Beach Boys. Like the hot brother where you're like, what's he doing? They never let him talk. He looked like that guy with like, you know, he had big.

[B]

Sideburns. I never let him.

[A]

Talk. Why can't just let Dennis.

[B]

Talk? I just want to hear what he has to.

[A]

Say. So I was the drummer, so he. He always had like striped turtlenecks on. Like, he was. He was just cool. He was cool.

[B]

Dangerous. What's the. He was like a beatnik.

[A]

Kinda.

[B]

Exactly. That was like. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Like a sunburned cheeks, rugged, outdoorsy, but then also.

[B]

Sexy. Super fucking.

[A]

Hot. Okay, so 71, he moves to Aspen. Cause it's the place to be for pro skiers. And obviously he's the star, so he's gonna be in the middle of all that. But he's 27. He's the richest pro skier on the.

[B]

Circuit.

[A]

Wow. And there was a movie that Robert Red stard in called Downhill Racer that is allegedly based on spider.

[B]

Savages. Robert Redford. So, like.

[A]

Totally. Robert Redford played him in the 70s. That's how hot this guy.

[B]

Was.

[A]

Exactly. Okay. So that's when he moved. You know, he's 27. When he moves into Starwood, he's. His neighbors are John Denver, who was the hugest music star at the time, and the man who owns Sears, Edgar.

[B]

Stern. Jesus name was. So Sears plays into both of our fucking.

[A]

Murders. Sears, baby. Yeah, that Sears was. The 70s was all about Sears, Roebuck and company. There's nothing like looking through the Sears catalog at Christmas time trying to figure out what you wanted to get for.

[B]

Christmas. Do you know that they. There's some. There's a book. There's like three books of. It's just Sears catalogs from the six 50s, 60s and 70s. I'm buying this for you. You know.

[A]

Wacko.

[B]

Yes. They have all the. This place in fucking Hollywood or like in Silver Lake has these insane books that someone made. They just made the whole catalog. That's crazy Sears shit for.

[A]

Sale. And I would even look. I would get so like into greedy. What am I gonna.

[B]

Get? I want.

[A]

This. I want that. That. I would take it into the curtains area, because right after the toys was like the curtains, and I'd be like, I want these curtains, like, with my greedy wooden.

[B]

Ends. Is that.

[A]

Greed? It just kept.

[B]

Going. I wanted everything for your.

[A]

Future. It was just dreams of having nice.

[B]

Things. And now you can do it, but you have dogs, so you.

[A]

Can'T. That's right. They'll rip those goddamn curtains down. Okay.

[B]

So. Yeah.

[A]

Go. He moves to Aspen. He joins the USA's Professional Ski Racing Tour in 1970, and he's the best one on it. He's a babe magnet, as they would say. And he starts doing celebrity ski racing events that are just to drum up support and fans for the U.S. pro Tour that he was on. Because he did, like, the World Cup. He was constantly competing as a professional skier. So at one of Those events in 1972 in Bear Valley, he meets Claudine Langer, and they quickly become an item. There's a story in that Dominic Dunn show where it was like she saw him and she asked a friend who is also a skier, who is that? And then she, like, it was. She.

[B]

Was.

[A]

She. He was in her sights. She was like, I'm getting that.

[B]

Guy. Good for.

[A]

Her. So basically, it worked. They got together. She moved into his house, took her kids. They all lived in his house, and they became fixtures on the Aspen party circuit. Now, this was 1972 Aspen skiing party circuit. So it's all.

[B]

Coke. I would pay so much money to go to one of those.

[A]

Parties. I mean, imagine, like, the gold.

[B]

Necklaces.

[A]

Ugh. And the. Like the tans and the frosty lip gloss, and it's. And amazing. Like, log cabin mansions. Like, those houses of, like, really high ceilings of white shag carpeting. I would. I would kill. And so much coke. Like, coke to your ankles. Just, like, scoop it up off the ground and.

[B]

Shit. It's like snow. They just ski on fucking.

[A]

Coke. It's snow, snow, snow everywhere. And they are truly the it crowd. So there's a lot of people that actually didn't like her because she moved in so quickly. And here he was so popular and had so many girlfriends and friends and got around him was this young, beautiful playboy pro athlete. And she basically got in there and locked that shit down and was like, I'm in your house. We're boyfriend, girlfriend. So after she moved in, his wild days abruptly ended, which was a hard adjustment for him. There was fighting. She was very jealous, but she kind of had reason to be. At one point, she had to forbid him from attending the best breast bash in.

[B]

Aspen. Yes, she should.

[A]

Have. Yeah, they were, you know, it was the.

[B]

Seventies.

[A]

Jesus. They would do things. And so this is like this inner circle, super rich, like, sports partying that they were doing where it's like, well, I'm gonna have a party at my house. Bring your best tits. We'll line them.

[B]

Up. And then a wet T shirt contest where, like, the thought of that.

[A]

Not.

[B]

Yes. It was so.

[A]

Normal. Yeah. And this was like a voluntary wet T shirt contest where no one was being paid or.

[B]

Anything. It wasn't at a bar.

[A]

No. Yeah, Best breast. So he couldn't go. He was mad. She was mad. There's stories of them being at a nightclub, him not paying enough attention to her. So she throws an entire glass of wine at him from across the.

[B]

Room. So.

[A]

She. Jesus, it's all coke.

[B]

Fueled. Yeah, everyone loves it.

[A]

Though. Yes, exactly. This was back when they didn't think coke is bad for you. By 1975, their relationship was beginning to strain. He was skiing less, partying more. She had to stay home with kids, of course. She was intensely jealous of the women that he got to constantly interact with. And the women, they were totally drawn to him. And that I'm sure he was drawn to as well. By January of 1976, he was telling friends he wanted her out of his life, but she wouldn't.

[B]

Leave. Oh.

[A]

No. And they say that a lot of the reason that he didn't just kick her to the curb was because he loved her kids and he really cared about her kids and he didn't want them to suffer in any way. So he kept it going longer than probably he wanted to or should have because he just was so worried about that. Yeah, worried about that. So Spider and Clawdeen spent the morning. Oh, sorry. By March of 76, he gave her the ultimatum to move out by April 1. So he waited all that time and then was like, look, you've gotta go. And the only reason I said that already. So they spent the morning of March 21st apart. He was skiing, she was sipping wine at a bar called Little.

[B]

Mel's. That made me laugh. Yes, chablis. She was 20 fucking bucks that it.

[A]

Was. Chablis, a nice breakfast wine. She was like, I fucking hate my life. My hot boyfriend's kicking me out. What am I gonna.

[B]

Do? My favorite murder line of breakfast wines.

[A]

Please. They go with.

[B]

Eggs. Yeah, you can pour it into.

[A]

Cereal. Whatever it takes you to noon.

[B]

To your lunch, beer to your nap. To your.

[A]

Lunch. Beer. Okay. So later that day, she joins him at a party at the home of an ABC sportscaster. I should have written his name down. It was Bill Something. That's.

[B]

Awesome. Always build.

[A]

Something. But I also love that it's like, there's an afternoon party, like, whatever. But people noted that at this party, they were not their normal selves. They weren't being warmed. They were barely around each other, and they left separately. A lot of people noted it. So a little bit later that day, she was seen driving around town erratically. And she eventually drove through the gates of Starwood at a very high rate of.

[B]

Speed. Breakfast.

[A]

Wine. Breakfast wine. Fueled car rage. So many times it's gotten me chubbly. And then very soon after her speeding through the gates of Starwood, the gunshots were.

[B]

Reported. Come.

[A]

On. So the ballistics showed that she was standing more than six feet away from Spider when the gun went off. And Spider's father was a highway patrolman, and he grew up with guns. He knew a lot about gun safety and proper gun handling. And he would have never taught someone to shoot inside the.

[B]

House.

[A]

Right. That's just basic gun safety stuff of you. If you're teaching someone how to use a gun, you don't let them hold the gun and point it at you. Point it at you, B. And you don't do it in the bathroom. But also, he can't teach her how to use the gun if she's standing six feet away with the gun and he's got his back to. To her, bending.

[B]

Over.

[A]

Honey. Okay. So they also found small indentations in the cartridge of the bullet, which meant that the gun had jammed and the trigger had been pulled three or four times before it discharged. No. So at the trial, that was in January of.

[B]

1977. God, can you imagine? Like, I'm gonna kill this person. No, wait, I'm gonna try. Like, shoot. Didn't work. No, I'm. Do it again. Like, that many.

[A]

Times. Fucking whine. Stupid gun. Yeah, she just has to stand there, like, keep trying. And also, he's in this. He's about to take a shower. So, like, is the shower running? He can't hear the clicks. Like, he's not. She's so far away. He doesn't even know she's in the room. It's so creepy and so different than the original, like, what she claimed. So at the trial, she said that her diary was not out on the dresser, that she had hidden it away in the drawer. And then the defense showed the photographs the police photographs. Where at one point it's there, or it starts out not there, then it's there. Which essentially the police photographs proved her story. That it was never out there in the first.

[B]

Place. Meaning what, they planted.

[A]

It? Right. But that they found it. That they basically didn't. Weren't allowed to search. Because if you have something in a drawer that's not really. Yeah. You can't search for it. That's illegal search and seizure, I.

[B]

Guess. Oh.

[A]

Shit. So, yeah, I guess so. It's, like, considered.

[B]

Private. I don't.

[A]

Know. Like, it has to be out in open.

[B]

View. Everyone hide your diaries. Go.

[A]

Now. Deeply and between your mattresses. So also. So everything written in that diary, which was all her talking about how the relationship had soured, how he was kicking her out. They had it all on paper from her voice. And none of that was admissible in.

[B]

Court.

[A]

Fuck. Then they mishandled the gun. So a cop picked it up with a handkerchief and put it into the glove box of a cop car. That's how he. That's how they dealt with the murder.

[B]

Weapon. Just like a naked gun into.

[A]

The. They're just like, marie, can you take this and make sure it gets processed? And he was like, no.

[B]

Problem. Marie, that. That tissue that you used to blow your nose on 10 minutes ago, can you use that tissue to pick up that.

[A]

Gun. Yeah. And then pass it over here to this guy that's never had a job.

[B]

Before.

[A]

Yeah. Essentially, the person that ended up up taking the car. This cop, took those bullets out of the.

[B]

Gun.

[A]

No. And because he was not a trained ballistics expert, all of that information that there were more indentations on the cartridge was also not admissible in court because anything could have happened when that person was handling the gun. So now the jury can't know that the relationship was ending or that it was a misfire. It wasn't just one accidental shot. The trigger had been pulled up two and maybe more than four times. They did use the autopsy report to suggest that when Savage was struck, he was bent over, facing away and at least six feet away from her, which was inconsistent with her story. Now, as this is, as the trial starts, of course, Aspen's overrun with reporters, and they're everywhere. They're taking up everything, and they're trying to get stories from everybody. The locals, of course, are disgusted. They're not having it. They hate them all. They're not talking to them. Hunter S. Thompson lived in Aspen at the.

[B]

Time. Oh, my.

[A]

God. And he was quoted as saying, it's like fouling your own nest. Because basically it's like, you know, they, her shooting him has basically ruined their entire community drawing those people there. Also, a reporter, a local overheard a reporter saying, this is the best. We have murder. We have sex and we have. Have drugs. So they were like there was. Reporters were thrilled about this.

[B]

Story.

[A]

Thirsty. The prosecution rested after two days arguing that she. That Claudine should have known the gun was going to go off. And the strategy was because they weren't going to be able to convict her without the actual evidence that they needed. So they wanted to get her on the lesser charge of criminal negligence. The defense put her on the stand and from the first day in court for the jury selection, she was dressed in big baggy gray dresses. She was wearing Peter Pan collars and turtlenecks. She was totally did everything she could to make herself look plain unpretty and not like the gorgeous starlet that she.

[B]

Was.

[A]

Yeah. She spoke so softly when she was on the stand that the jurors had to lean forward in their seats to hear.

[B]

Her. Oh, that's so manipulative. Uh huh. They have to move their bodies to come here, you know.

[A]

Right. And like that she, when she does, there's like a thing where she makes, after she's, after it's over, she makes this public statement and she's like, I just want to say that, like she really does talk like a little kitten girl all the time. So she, she maintained it was accidental shooting. She, she stuck to her story. She said she and Spider were still in love. He best friend. She could never kill anyone, especially not him. The jury deliberated for just under three hours and the verdict was guilty of negligent.

[B]

Homicide.

[A]

Okay. Which meant that she could be facing up to two years in prison. But the judge changed that conviction to a misdemeanor of criminal negligence and sentenced to her to spend 30 days in the Pitkin County Jail and to pay a fine of.

[B]

$250. $250 for taking someone's entire.

[A]

Life? Yeah. So there are people that were like that. People who like drunk drivers. Get worse. Get worse sentences. Oh my God. And they said that the Pitkin County Jail in.

[B]

Aspen.

[A]

Yeah. Was like Mayberry with really good room.

[B]

Service. Yeah. Fucking send me there.

[A]

Immediately. They allowed her to repaint her son sell pink when she was there. But.

[B]

She.

[A]

Wow. The critical. The judge said that she had to serve her 30 days in jail, but that she could do it when it was convenient for.

[B]

Her. Oh, it's not jury fucking.

[A]

Duty. So she. Even. Jury duty. It doesn't work that.

[B]

Way.

[A]

No. Yeah. So it was.

[B]

Real. Oh.

[A]

Man. Yeah. Real like that. I mean, there's a. You could. You could theorize distantly that maybe someone was on the take, that it.

[B]

Would.

[A]

Sure. It would end up being that forgiving toward.

[B]

Her.

[A]

Sure. The critical reaction to the verdict and toward her and the sentencing was exacerbated when she, after the trial was over, went on vacation to Mexico with her defense attorney, Ron.

[B]

Austin.

[A]

No. Who was married at the.

[B]

Time.

[A]

No.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Honey. They later married, and they still live in.

[B]

Aspen. Like, now.

[A]

Now. Well, at the airing of power, privilege and.

[B]

Justice. Like, you and I could. You and I and Steven could call the Burbank Airport right now and get on a fucking plane and go meet.

[A]

Them. No, the Burbank airport's.

[B]

Closed. Not for us. No. Damn it. Call the Burbank.

[A]

Airport. After the criminal trial, Savage's parents filed a $3 million wrongful death lawsuit against Langeais in May of 1977. That was eventually resolved out of court in September of 1979 with the proviso that Langeais never tell or. Or write about the.

[B]

Story.

[A]

Wow. And Mick Jagger wrote a song called Claudine for the Emotional Rescue Rolling Stones album no Way. It was never released because they found out about it and, like, basically said, we'll sue.

[B]

You. Shit. Lost.

[A]

Track. Right. And that is the murder of Spider.

[B]

Savage. I have never even fucking heard that name.

[A]

Before. Really? I think I considered it, like, kind of a moldy oldie of, like. Because it's so sensational. It's so celebrity and rich.

[B]

People. I want to see their photos. I want to see. I've never. And so they're still alive. He's not, let's say no. Come.

[A]

On. You said.

[B]

They. Wait. What? Start.

[A]

Over. Start.

[B]

Over. I.

[A]

Missed. Tell it.

[B]

Again. I missed the.

[A]

Middle. Wow. I don't know if she's still alive, because I actually, as I was pulling up to your house, it was. Was looking up Claudie Lange today and hitting things and, like, I can't drive. Well, you shouldn't be. I shouldn't. But then also, if my glass is on, I can't read small.

[B]

Print. Yeah. Let's pretend she.

[A]

Is. You know what? That can be everybody else. And if you're interested in the Claudine Lange story, go ahead and Google.

[B]

It. Yeah. And then tell us about it on.

[A]

Twitter. That's right. If there's anything good, my friend John Levenstein, who I work with, is. We were actually talking about it in the room. Today and he said, I think there was, was a hoax. There was something about a hoax in that case. But I couldn't, I looked it up in four different ways and I couldn't find anything about what he was talking.

[B]

About. Where are her kids? Is what I want to know. And can they have a.

[A]

Podcast? Well, Andy Williams, when all that started, he flew in and he would go to court with her. He like stood by her and really supported her. And I think maybe just as much for the kids as anyone else, but like there was a bit of a like united front presentation in that.

[B]

Way which always helps the defense when.

[A]

But also helps those kids. Like it's not. I mean at least they had someone, I don't know and just makes me feel slightly better that they could go back to their Malibu mansion and go live there and you.

[B]

Know.

[A]

Yeah. Be and at least have a dad.

[B]

Around. Normalish.

[A]

Life. Oh, so.

[B]

Awesome. Oh.

[A]

Man.

[B]

Yeah. What a boomer. Okay, we are back. Karen, do you have.

[A]

Any? I do, yes. Claudine Langeais is now in her 80s, still married to that former lawyer Ron Austin. In 2022, it was revealed that Spider Savage had a daughter in 1967. Her name is Missy Grice. She didn't know who her birth father was until she was 20 years old. She's now contributed to various documentary projects on her father's life. Recently she worked with Amy Redford, who is Robert Redford's daughter, on her feature length documentary. And Amy Redford says that documentary tells the whole Spider Savage story. So it looks like it's still in production, but it's really cool, this idea that there's going to be like this kind of like next generation of TV and films that are these stories that we have been talking about for 10 years. You know what I mean? I just like all of these things that when we hear about them or they come up, it's like, I can't wait to see that. And I can't wait to see how somebody else tells the.

[B]

Story. I know, like when I was researching the mainline murders again, I was like, I wish I could redo this story because it's so fascinating. I want to talk about it now.

[A]

Again. I mean, I wish I could redo every single goddamn episode that we've heard so far. I hope hopefully that's a given. People that listen to these understand that, right? Because we just do so many great ones. And it used to be when we did these stories, like my documents were never more than five pages long. Isn't that hilarious? They're not three times.

[B]

Longer. Yeah, they're so much longer now. I fear what I was like then. I was 37 at the time. This was episode 75. 5. We've done 500 episodes now like that. I want to do some re. Like, let's start from the beginning and do them all over. What if we did 500 episodes.

[A]

Again? Oh, the real.

[B]

Answer.

[A]

Yeah. The final murder would be our double murder for sure, wouldn't it? Doesn't it feel like.

[B]

It? Yes. All right, well, let's head back in to wrap up the.

[A]

Show. What's your. What's your positive of the.

[B]

Week? I don't know yet. What's yours? I went first last.

[A]

Week. It's so hard telling my whole story for so.

[B]

Long. I was trying so hard to think of it. You know what? It's. Running errands with Vince. Like, he's not working right now, which is great. I mean, he's our tour manager.

[A]

But, yeah, he's working a lot.

[B]

Actually. He's working a lot. He doesn't have to go.

[A]

To. He doesn't go to a job.

[B]

Anywhere, which is kind of new for us. And, like, you know, they're all these stupid. Like, to go to the post office and I have to go to the fucking. I have to get my prescription. I have to do this and that. And, like, we go together, and then we go get lunch while we're doing it. It's just like. It's so nice. I like being alone a lot, but I don't mind it when I'm with him. I'd rather be with him than alone, which is really rare for me. So it's just running errands with him makes me really fucking happy. Like, we did it today, and it was.

[A]

Just. That's.

[B]

Nice. It's just fucking cool. It's much better with him.

[A]

Around. It's because you married.

[B]

Him. I know.

[A]

Right? He's gonna keep him around a little bit, at least through our tour. What's yours? Trying to think. I mean, I love that dinner that we got to go to. Our friends invited us to a weekly dinner that they do, which was very cool. And it was just like, one of those things where I. Sitting there and it was such good food. Food. And it was such fun, like, smart, funny people. And it was one of those. The feel of it. I was like, oh, this is how, like, healthy adults live their.

[B]

Life.

[A]

Yeah. Like you. This is. This is how you're supposed to do.

[B]

It. It's not like you have. When you have a weekly meeting it's like you have. It's not like, I'll see you when I see you. It's like you have this obligation to these people. And throughout the week, like, however bad your week is, you know, you're still gonna see these people on Sunday and it's gonna be nice.

[A]

Nice. And I kind of like when people make a community for themselves or make. Like, if you don't have the family around you that maybe either you used to have or that some people, other people do have or don't have, you still set.

[B]

Up.

[A]

Yeah. Kind of like a community for yourself. It's good. I think it's so healthy for.

[B]

People. It's nice when you turn your friends into family. So thanks, Dave Clock, for inviting.

[A]

Us. Thanks, Dave.

[B]

Clock.

[A]

And. And also thanks for that restaurant. And maybe we shouldn't blow it up, but. Because I don't normally like red sauce and that bread. There was a bowl of red sauce they gave you to dip your bread in. And I was just like, I would like to do this for the rest of my.

[B]

Life. And the bread was just, like, insane rosemary bread. That was just like fucking the best bread I've ever.

[A]

Had. It was really.

[B]

Good. That was really nice. Yeah.

[A]

Yes. Because the first thing I thought of was, like, I did a comedy show, but I was like, I hated my set and I hate this, and me.

[B]

Meow. Meow.

[A]

Yeah. And so I don't.

[B]

Know. All right, well, that's. I think that's.

[A]

Lovely.

[B]

Thanks. Okay, we are.

[A]

Back. I just gotta say this. The thing that I say, that is my favorite thing of the week. We talk about going out to dinner with our friends and how lovely it was. And it was. And one of those friends that we are at dinner with that night has since. And it is one of the saddest. First of all, like, one of the saddest deaths of a young person who died too young. His name is Neil Mahoney. And it breaks my heart to think about that night and how fun and excited I was and we all were to be there and what a great time we were having. And I just think it's a good thing to point out of, like, do not take your friends for granted. Do not take your family for granted. Don't really take any of this for granted, because as I've said a thousand times, we're on a. And it's kind of shocking to look back and be like, oh, that makes me really sad to be like, that was this highlight of my.

[B]

Week. Totally. And it feels so recent, but so Long ago. It was so long ago. It's just crazy how much things.

[A]

Change. It really is. It's. I mean, it is weird, too, because this is our lives that we're looking back.

[B]

On.

[A]

Right? It's nuts. It's our actual lives. None of this was fucking written for your enjoyment. And actually, we. We were just, like, at home, not doing the things we're talking about. But then the other side of that is that it's so cute. You're like, my favorite thing this week is me and Vince ran errands together where I'm just. And here we are 10 years later. Like, it's just so.

[B]

Sweet. And hearing about the pod loft and my new apartment that I was so excited about, you know, and it's like, things are so different now. I was able to, like, buy a.

[A]

Home. Home.

[B]

Yeah. Vince is with me every day running errands still. It's very. I just feel like no time has passed and so much time has passed at the same.

[A]

Time. Yeah, it's wild. Okay, so for the titles of this episode, it's originally called Breakfast Wine.

[B]

But if we were going to name it today based on something else, maybe.

[A]

We would name it oh, Pocket Full of Glitter, which is my demand to.

[B]

Steven. I love it. We could also call it A Skipper's Dream show because it was so short in the.

[A]

Intro. Yeah, that's true. And by short, we meant not 35 minutes long. Insanity. Also, we could call it Every other Kind of math, which. Which is George's joke about being bad at the present. Math she's talking about. And every other kind of.

[B]

Math. Always and forever. All right, well, thank you guys for listening to another episode of Rewind. Let's let us say goodbye in 2017. Thank you guys for listening and for being fucking cool as shit. And we're on Twitter and Instagram and all these places and all that stuff. And thank. Yeah, thank.

[A]

You. And mostly, stay sexy and don't get.

[B]

Murdered. Elvis, you want a cookie? Wait, you want a.

[A]

Cookie? Okay.

[B]

Bye. Bye. Janice Torres here, and I'm Austin Hankwitz. We host the podcast Mind the Small Business Success Stories, produced by Ruby Studio in partnership with Intuit.

[A]

QuickBooks. We're back for season four to talk to some incredible small business business.

[B]

Owners. The big thing about working at tech is that it's ever evolving, ever changing. Everyone's a rookie. That's how fast the industry is changing. So what I'm really excited about is to be part of that change. So Listen, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your.

[A]

Podcasts. Running a business is hard enough. Don't make it harder With a.

[B]

Dozen apps that don't talk to each.

[A]

Other. One for sales, another for inventory, a separate one for accounting that software overload. Odoo is the all in one platform that replaces them all. CRM, accounting, inventory, E Commerce, hr. Fully integrated, easy to use and built to grow with your business. Thousands have already made the.

[B]

Switch. Why not you try Odoo for [e-mail] that's odoo.com hey Ryan Reynolds here wishing you a very happy half off holiday because right now Mint Mobile is offering offering you the gift of 50 off unlimited. To be clear, that's half price, not half the service. Mint is still premium unlimited wireless for a great price. So that means a half day. Yeah, give it a [e-mail] Switch.

[A]

Upfront payment of 45 for 3 month plan equivalent to 15 per month required.

[B]

New customer offer for first 3 months.

[A]

Only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of networks busy taxes and fees extra. See mint.