Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 76: My Own Sinkhole

Summary

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My Favorite Murder: Rewind with Karen & Georgia

Episode 76: “My Own Sinkhole”

December 24, 2025
Hosts: Karen Kilgariff & Georgia Hardstark

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Episode Overview

In this rewind episode, Karen and Georgia revisit “My Own Sinkhole” (originally aired July 6, 2017), offering fresh commentary, life updates, and reflections on the stories and the podcast’s impact. They recap the Mark Hofmann bombings and forgeries, and the infamous Central Park Five case, blending serious history with their signature comedic banter and thoughtful asides on true crime culture and audience responsibility.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Revisiting Old Episodes and Podcast Beginnings

• The episode opens with Karen and Georgia reflecting on their awkward early intros, riffing on how starting each episode felt uncomfortable but ultimately trivial given the vastness of the universe.
  • "[After talking about the Hubble telescope] I'm just saying, who cares how we start this podcast?" — Karen, [04:32]
  • “Dude, we're stardust.” — Georgia, [04:35]
• They joke about the “podcasting loft,” OCD tendencies in arranging fan art, and earthquake preparedness as L.A. residents, segueing into Karen’s fascination with sinkholes.
  • “One of my great passions of life is sinkholes.” — Karen, [09:07]

2. Updates: Life After the Podcast’s Growth

• Both hosts share how the success of My Favorite Murder changed their lives in tangible ways, e.g., Georgia’s dad no longer drives Lyft and Karen no longer lives atop a threatening liquefaction zone.
  • "Because of this podcast and the murderinos who listen, I was able to help my dad retire." — Georgia, [19:36]
  • "Now I own a home that is built on granite. I'm no longer in a liquefaction zone." — Karen, [20:09]

3. Listener Letters and Community

• A listener, whose father prosecuted a major case, writes in, sparking discussion on involvement with infamous crimes and community engagement, such as the Cleveland Murderinos meetup raising $500 for End the Backlog.
  • "Way to go, because that really makes a difference." — Karen, [14:52]

4. Tattoos & Murderino Culture

• The hosts consider matching My Favorite Murder tattoos, riff on neck tattoos as “job stoppers,” and discuss the rise of calligraphy and fan lettering challenges among Murderino fans.
  • “I want to get mine all across my one haunch...my whole hip, front to back.”— Karen, [16:48]
  • “I’m gonna get ssdgm.” (Stay Sexy, Don’t Get Murdered) — Georgia, [17:02]

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Featured Cases

A. Mark Hofmann & The Mormon Bomber

Story by Karen Kilgariff
Starts: [26:00]

Mark Hofmann: Background & Crimes

• Master forger in Salt Lake City during the 1980s, infiltrated Mormon circles, and became infamous for forging historical documents — including the “Salamander Letter,” which shook the Mormon historical narrative.
  • "He was like one of the greatest forgers or the...most infamous forgers anyone had ever seen." — Karen, [49:43]
• Details the pipe bomb murders in 1985 that killed Steve Christensen and Kathy Sheets; police traced evidence back to Hofmann, who was injured while transporting a third bomb.
• Hofmann’s forgeries duped major institutions (Sotheby’s, Library of Congress) and targeted the LDS Church with forged revelations.
  • “That was such a change of the historical record.” — Karen, [45:08] (on the Salamander Letter)
• Key insight: Abuse of trust in insular or religious communities enabled such frauds — a warning echoed in examples beyond Mormonism.
  • "They call it affinity fraud. And it happens in lots of different...religions." — Karen, [32:12]

Capturing Hofmann & Aftermath

• Investigators pieced together the truth through forensic science (e.g., trajectory of bomb shrapnel).
• Hofmann’s lies unraveled, leading him to plead guilty to second-degree murder and forgery, receiving a sentence of five years to life.
  • “He was sentenced to five years to life in prison. He's spending life in prison?” — Georgia, [54:22]

Updates

• Mark Hofmann remains in prison and has never granted an interview.
• The Netflix series Murder Among the Mormons recently explored the case.
• Victims’ families, especially Gretchen Sheets McNees (now a detective), remain vocal about not valorizing Hofmann because “he also killed two people and didn’t care who he killed” — [Quote: Karen citing McNees, 55:49]

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B. The Central Park Five

Story by Georgia Hardstark
Starts: [61:09]

Setting the Stage: New York City in the 1980s

• Details the social, economic, and racial crisis in 1980s NYC: abandoned neighborhoods, fires, class and race conflict, rise in crime, and sensationalist media.
  • “On a typical day in 1989...nine rapes, five murders, 255 robberies, and 194 aggravated assaults.” — Georgia, [67:08]

The Night in Central Park

• In April 1989, a series of attacks by a group of teens culminated in the brutal assault and rape of jogger Trisha Meili. Five Black and Latino boys (Kevin Richardson, Raymond Santana, Antron McCray, Yusef Salaam, and Korey Wise) are arrested, interrogated without food/sleep, coerced into confessions, and ultimately convicted despite their recantations and no physical evidence linking them to the crime.
  • “These are 14, 15-year-old children that aren't bad kids.” — Georgia, [73:10]
  • “They told them, they admit just to, you know, go home.” — Georgia, [73:11]

The Media Firestorm & Public Backlash

• Newspapers publish names, photos, addresses of the accused (despite legal protections for minors), fueling racist tropes (“wilding,” “wolf pack”).
• Donald Trump calls for the death penalty; the prosecution narrative overrides physical evidence and concerns of coerced confession.
  • “The media fucking loses its shit, which is such a big part of the story.” — Georgia, [74:10]

Exoneration

• In 2002, serial rapist Matias Reyes confesses to the Central Park attack, with DNA proof matching him and not the five. The convictions are vacated; the city pays $41M in settlement. Still, some involved refuse to admit error.
  • “Why would you admit you did something and did it alone...and actually have the hard evidence and know the details?” — Karen, [89:19]
  • “The five are exonerated. And in 2014, New York City paid them $41 million as a settlement.” — Georgia, [88:29]

Updates

• All five men now advocate for criminal justice reform; their stories are depicted in Netflix’s When They See Us.
  • “Yusef Salaam became a board member of the Innocence Project...won the Democratic nomination...in 2023.” — Georgia, [96:00]
  • “Park Madison NYC...donates a portion of its proceeds to the Innocence Project.” — Georgia, [96:24]
  • “In December 2022, a Central park entrance was renamed Gate of the Exonerated...” — Georgia, [97:26]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “One of my great passions of life is sinkholes.” — Karen, [09:07]
• “Because of this podcast and the Murderinos who listen, I was able to help my dad retire.” — Georgia, [19:36]
• “There's something to that. There seems to be an innocence that in the 70s and 80s, con men were like, oh, we can exploit this.” — Karen, [35:15]
• “They tricked the Library of Congress. He tricked Sotheby’s.” — Karen, [42:57]
• “I feel so much for her... thinking that these five boys were her attackers for so long and then having to switch her brain completely. It's just so scary.” — Georgia, [90:21]
• “What's better than not covering it because it's too loaded is... just not talking about it at all. And so I think that's important as well.” — Georgia, [94:01]

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Commentary on True Crime & Podcasting Responsibility

• The hosts repeatedly address the ethical dimensions of true crime storytelling:
  • On not glorifying perpetrators: “I think they've kind of idolized him and given him a unique status. I don't think he deserves. Yes, he did those four forgeries, but he also killed two people and didn't care who he killed.” — Karen (quoting Gretchen Sheets McNees), [55:49]
  • On representing all victims: “I want to tell the stories because I want to represent as many people as we can, as many victims as we can, which I totally think these boys are victims in this story.” — Georgia, [92:24]
  • On listener feedback and growth: “It's the kind of awareness that we definitely had to develop over time.” — Karen, [56:51]

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Important Timestamps

• [02:52] — Start of “Rewind” with new commentary
• [09:07] — Karen's obsession with sinkholes, earthquake talk
• [19:36] — Life updates since original 2017 recording
• [26:00] — Karen begins Mark Hofmann story
• [55:44] — Karen’s case updates and reflection
• [61:09] — Georgia begins Central Park Five case
• [88:29] — Exoneration and settlement for the Five
• [96:00] — Where the exonerated Five are today
• [98:01] — “Something positive” segment

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Lighter Touch: Community, Music, and Self-Care

• Karen and Georgia keep their signature banter alive—in jokes about tattoos, jobs, dating apps, and the ongoing support from the “Murderino” community.
• The “something positive” closer underscores mental health care and music as anchors.
  • “Music is such an important part of...the human existence, the human experience and life and happiness.” — Georgia, [99:19]

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Alternate Episode Titles (as joked by the hosts, [99:30])

• “Too Many Fish”
• “Really Aunt Mary”
• “Some Toes”
• “One Point Over Mine”

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Conclusion

This “rewind” episode stands as vintage MFM: equal parts irreverent, poignant, community-focused, and self-aware. The hosts revisit criminal cases with deeper hindsight, celebrate how the podcast has changed their lives and the lives of their listeners, and show continued growth in ethical storytelling. All with plenty of laughter—even about sinkholes and neck tattoos.

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Stay Sexy, Don’t Get Murdered.

Transcript

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

Hello and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right, every Wednesday, we're here recapping our old shows with all new commentary and insights and updates.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Today, we're recapping episode 76, which we named My own Sinkhole.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh. This episode came out on July 6th, 2017.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, let's listen to the intro of episode 76. Happy 4th of July.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hello.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wait. Let's start over. It's not 4th of July anymore, so.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh. Oh. Happy 5th of July. It's not the 6.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's the 6.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hello, and welcome to my favorite Murderer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hi. Welcome. Thanks for coming. That's Karen Kilgarib. Why do we always start it with, like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's super uncomfortable. We've gone over this a million times. We're staring at each other, or even part of it. We just waiting, just stare at each.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Other to see who's gonna go first.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then the fakest voices that we have to offer come out of our heads.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then we ask to start over, but we don't. And we never plan anything. I mean, what are they going to plan?

[Karen Kilgariff]

What are you going to plan?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, we have an ending. What more do you want?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Who cares? Anyway?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Of all the things. Have you seen that picture? The newest pictures that have come back from the Hubble telescope that show the galaxies. They're purple. They did it. Basically. It's like black background. They did. Purple were the galaxies in the picture, and orange was the gas. The different things of gas that make stars. And there's a countless number of galaxies in this photo.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're giving me an anxiety attack.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm just saying. Who cares how we start this podcast?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Dude, we're stardust.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Dude. Dude, we're made of stars.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I can't even start to think about it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wait, that is it. The vastness of space gives you anxiety.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The vastness of space, the reality of life. What is it? What are we? We're aliens, clearly. I mean, everyone is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm not. I'm not.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm actually Irish.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Which is worse and harder.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's. You know that podcast we love? Mysteries abound that we go to sleep, too. Then, like, in the last episode is like, are. Are humans actually aliens? And it's like, yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I got so into that episode that when I landed, when I went to Petaluma for Father's Day, when I landed and Lauren Adrian came and picked me up, I got into the car and was like, so the thing is that there's a really good chance we're all aliens.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I said, that To Vince, too. And he was. And I explained it very poorly. He was like, I don't know. Yeah, I don't. And then. Then I turned to him, and one night when Elvis was sitting on me and I said, do you think cats are aliens? He was just like, no, I am. No, I am. I am the weird one in the relationship. He is the, like. What's it called?

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's the voice of reason.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, speaking of which, there's a reason we can never think of the word trophy. And I would like to say. I would like to take responsibility for it, because I think every time it's happened, it's been in my story where.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We think a serial killer takes trophies.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. They take a thing, they keep it so they can look at it and remember the bad thing they did. That's called a trophy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. But it's the word memento, which is what we use is the fucking same word.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, but I guess. I guess the most often used term and the ones that people tweet to us in all caps with 17 exclamation points after is trophy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So maybe here in the podcasting loft, which we finally moved into, and everyone. Are you gonna ever tweet pictures or put pictures on Instagram?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I just, like, didn't feel like it was done yet, but I should just post it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so good, you guys. All of the awesome art you sent us and dolls you've made us and pictures and everything Georgia has arranged in her loft obsessively. And it looks so cool. It's super fun to record it on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Social media, but there's, like, things I want to frame still and things I need to put up here and there, but I'll post it for now. And there's also a drawing of a let's sit crooked and talk straight drawing. And I thought it was so funny when I hung it crooked. Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, I saw it immediately, and it made me laugh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's driving me crazy, like, as a fucking OCD person. But it's got a point.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's a reason it's that way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Reason. I don't need to download the app. That is a measure a leveler.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, they have that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I can have that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Dude, dude, you can have an app for anything.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know, man. When the grid goes down, we're going to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're screwed beyond belief.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nothing will be straightened. No frames will be straight.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that you won't know. Even if there are, like, land lines, if they can get a hard line. And some way could you do you know even your own phone number anymore?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, do you know mine?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. Vince and I purposely memorized each other, so I'm gonna give it out right now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, great. Please call us day or night.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you know what I like? I'm super prepared. Trying to prepare for earthquakes, you know? And so I got, like, extreme. This is boring. This is so boring. Nobody cares. Right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

As I take a huge sip of Diet Coke, thinking, you're gonna cover for at least 30 seconds. No. Preparing for earthquakes is necessary and a reality in California. What'd you do, buy some flashlights? Come on, zhuzh it up a little.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Bit, Have a flashlight. I have external batteries in my car and in my.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The hand crank kind.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, no, no. For the phone. Like. Like that. Have a charge on them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh. Oh, right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Listen, everyone, be prepared.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, That's. It's very important.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I have a. Like a. And I have an earthquake kit in my front closet.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I have one, too, but all I.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Think of is, what if that's the part of the house that goes down?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Dude, I have one in the loft and I'm like, clearly, the loft is gonna collapse. What is it doing here?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I stick flashlights under everything in my whole house.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Smart.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I've actually. When I bought my house, I had to sign a piece of paper declaring that I understood that my house is on land. That if there's a strong enough earthquake, it turns to liquid and sinks into the earth.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I will get my own sinkhole, which, as many people know, one of my great passions of life is sinkholes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, I have a question. What kind of liquid are we talking about? Because it's something fun like Kool Aid.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Then I'm like, great, yes, I have. There's a Kool Aid spring underneath my house. No, it's because I'm near the quote unquote LA River.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You mean the one that's feet from my door?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Well, that goes right up kind of near my house. If you go north and that creates the water table is right, I guess, close to under my house. So basically, if the ground shakes, the kind of silt or whatever ground is under my house will just mix with the water, become like sand quicksand. Goodbye and. Goodbye and.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye and good night.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So just things to skippers come back Skippers. This is what you need to know the most.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Skippers in places where there isn't and won't be earthquakes ever. Hi.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You never know, though.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you think there's a geologist who listens? Is that an earthquake, doctor?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, definitely.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, he's gonna email us. You are completely incorrect about all of this information.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I signed paperwork.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Listen, speaking of. I'm not. Oh, experts. That's right. I have a letter, an email from a girl who. So I did the Mainline murders. The fucking insane Mainline murders. Last week. Yes. And the girl who was. Whose dad was involved in the case emailed us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Whoa.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. I'm so excited when you covered the Mainline murders in your last episode. As my dad was very closely involved in the case, he prosecuted Karen Reinert's lover, William Bradford. Patches.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Patches, the professor?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. For stealing from her estate. So the one thing he got in the beginning, he described Bradfield as a master manipulator and a truly evil man, despite being a Prosecutor for over 30 years and putting hundreds of murderers behind bars, including billionaire murderer John Dupont. Ooh, wait, wait.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is that the Foxcatcher guy? Hell, yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My dad says no case has ever affected him quite like this one. He's a father of four daughters, and he still tears up when he talks about the kids, the innocent children. And the discovery of Karen's art museum pin on the floor of the car. And by the way, I accidentally called her Carol at the very end of it. And that's just.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You were off the page, though. You were just trying to talk.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. That's always a mistake.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's the mistake that we're dedicated to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Making on this podcast. Yes. Never apologize for like. I just apologized. So Patches and Principal Smith were co conspirators, he thinks. And that Patches had agreed. I'm just calling them this. Agreed to split Karen's life insurance money with Principal in exchange for killing Karen and her children. To this day, he's still heartbroken over the police mishandling the evidence that led to J. Smith's conviction of being thrown out. Thank you guys so much. Et cetera, et cetera. JonBenet, JFK. Thanks again. Stay sexy. Don't get murdered. Brianna. P.S. and Stephen said he. Can I read this? Steven? Oh, no, you're gonna be embarrassed. Steven said. That's fine. I don't want to embarrass you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Say it and then we'll decide after.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, we can cut it out. Stephen. P.S. is Steven Stingle. Nope, I said that wrong.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is Steven Stanky?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, totally. Steven. Single?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, sorry, Stephen. I'm gonna take this one. Wait, can we say that you can cut this out? Obviously, you're in charge of this whole show.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, there's got so many. So many listeners like this. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Inquiring minds. He's a cat guy. Which lots of girls like. But don't mistake that for innocence or any kind of. Don't mistake his kindness for gentleness. What is the saying? Don't mistake my weakness for kindness.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I like that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I saw that one time on Tumblr.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I dig it. Right, Stephen, this is gonna be in my dating profile. That whole clip of this podcast, the whole thing can fit on a table.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Where are you going?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are you going to Tinder? Let everyone know? Oh, I don't. I haven't decided yet. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think you should take it over to what's it called? Too Many Fish, the Christian dating site.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Too Many Fish. Is that it? Plenty of fish.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Plenty of fish.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There are too many fish.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't like fish, so I feel like there' too many fish.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's true. Yes. Even religion, that's really important to you. I mean, I am a Satanist, so.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So bring that act over to Too Many Fish and then, you know, for a change of pace.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Speaking of traveling, can I just say.

[Karen Kilgariff]

One thing really quick? At the end of that email, did she start calling the woman Karen? Because Karen was the daughter.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Now I know only because somebody that has my name.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, no, no. She said the discovery of Karen's art museum pin at the floor of the car. So the kids, the kid.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But then later on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, you're right, she may have. No, you're right, she did. Fuck.

[Pets Best Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not just me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. I just want to make sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So the. I know. I feel awful. The mother's. No, this isn't right. Okay. Anyways, here we go.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, just so. Just so they know we didn't do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Should we start? That was just a run through.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm going to say this. The Cleveland Murderinos had a meetup. They sent us pictures, they sent us video. There's a bunch of them. They're a good looking group.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They were all in a bar, enthusiastic.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And a lot of people were tweeting, just saying what a great group it was, how happy it made them to be a part of it. Other people were writing, saying, hey, I didn't know. I wish I was there. And they ended up collecting $500 for end backlog.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That is amazing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Which is so cool. So thank you guys so much and congratulations and way to go, because that really makes a difference.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's lovely. Yeah, that's nice. Des Moines. Sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Des Moines.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sorry, guys.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're talking shit. I actually have no idea what it's like there, but apparently it's lovely.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. I think I was like a great place.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I think there was an Iowa meetup too, where they went and saw Despicable Me together and sent us a photo. And I'm like, what? That's cool. You don't have to make a bunch of cocktails with funny names. You just go watch a movie.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's so good. I. There was a. Somebody sent. I can't tell if he. It was the person that sent it was wearing the sweatshirt because he kind of looked like a model or if it was just showing the picture of a sweatshirt. But you can get a sweatshirt that says Du Moin D U H. Like, it's basically spelled phonetically, but also, Du Moin made me laugh really hard. Yeah, well, so we're, you know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. We're going to Des Moines. No, we're not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're on each other's radar.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We might. Yeah. Can I say one more thing about Murderino? So, on Instagram, they're having, I guess, a thing called the lettering challenge, which I didn't know was a thing. It's all these people who are, like, written to calligraphy and write, and lettering, I guess, is a thing. And so they're having my favorite murder lettering challenge. I guess there's, like, a whole. It's a whole community. They have challenges for, like, the month. And so it's hashtag LetterMFM. And I think I found my. The girl who was gonna design my tattoo. My favorite murder tattoo.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that's great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So do you want to get one with me, or should I surprise you?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That is so fucking weird.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Why?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I had a dream the other night that everyone in my family was getting a tattoo together. And in the dream, I was like, really, Aunt Mary? Like, in your mid-70s? Like, I was just looking around at my family, like. And you know what? We were getting a tattoo of some toes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What does that mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know. I'll look it up, but, yes, I'll get a tattoo with you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Should we get one together?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can. I want to get mine all across my one haunch? Just. Just my whole hip, front to back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think I'm gonna get mine like. What's this called? Under my armpit, side of my body, ribs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I love it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then I'm gonna get ssdgm. And this chick who does calligraphy really well who I'll shout out when I get the tattoo. I'm gonna have. I'm having her design something.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Maybe I'll get it on my neck.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are you serious?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, my. I used to know a guy that used to call Neck tattoos. Job stoppers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Hand tattoos.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But I don't think that's true anymore because how many chefs do you see with neck tattoos?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or like, podcasters?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, people who are tatted up are like, yeah, you. I run my entire company.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I have a face tattoo.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Deal with it, get it. And. And I make more money than you and your dad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm my own boss. Too bad. Your dad needs. Okay. Do you know my dad is driving Lyft now, and he said, I keep wondering if these young girls who get in my car are Murderinos. That sounded like he was gonna kill them at first.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. He has to be careful with how he brings that up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So if you see Marty picking up on Lyft.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Marty.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Marty.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think that's all.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's all for you. Let me see. Steven has. I was gonna say. Oh, yeah. There's a little fun thing for. For us based on last week's story. On your story, Karen. I know it's July right now, but I think it's never too early for us. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What is it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

The Andy Williams Christmas special. Holy shit. Claudine Langeais first husband. And this was the one that, like, was it. Was it that. It was. This is the highest ranking television show before he got knocked out by some Super Bowls.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah. This is the classics.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This. This is when we spend a weekend watching this. That is amazing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do we save it for Christmas? Just to get in the mood. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A July Christmas special event. Thank you so much. Wait, someone sent it to us or did you get it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I got it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[IBM Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Steven.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Steven.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Really good gift giving.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're now invited to watch it with us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. It's me this week, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I knew.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Now you know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Steven's not fucking paying attention.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Steven doesn't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I was trying to look up who first. I definitely went first. Yeah. Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because now we're all back. We're all like. We're all on it again.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What's a bummer, though? And I think that we have this often is that mine is a real bummer at the end. And I don't. I hate closing with a real bummer. Just. Yeah, but then we have something. That's why we have a positive.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's why we turn it hard. We take a hard left into positive land.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. People don't like when murder podcasts are a real bummer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They don't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, they do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. That's the whole point. And we're back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I want to go ahead and say right at the top that because of this podcast and the murderinos who listen, I was able to help my dad retire. He doesn't drive Lyft anymore. He has a nice apartment and a van that he loves. So I just wanted to let everyone know that and thank them for listening.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's right. Every moment that you spend with us has affected our lives and in ways that are so crazy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So crazy. And I mean, like, it was a really exciting time back then when you got that new, that split level apartment, that high class, high ceiling split level apartment. Just so funny. And now I own a home that is built on granite. I'm no longer in a liquefaction zone. I got to move on up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, we're doing a location effort date. My dad is not driving Lyft and lives in an upgrade apartment. Karen's house is standing and not a potential sinkhole.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's no secret rivers under me anymore. It's great. So grateful.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I can't believe that the big one hasn't happened, though, since then. I'm sorry, that's so stupid of me to say, but, like, I've been waiting for it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This whole time for a little while.

[Karen Kilgariff]

On social media and. Or online or whatever. The thing was that the caldera in Yellowstone was gonna blow and they were like, any second.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But I think it's the kind of thing of a little perspective of the thing. We get told what to worry about and we don't realize it. So suddenly I, here comes Covid. Yes, Covid's on the way. But I'm literally all eyes on Yellowstone every day of like, how's the caldera? Is it bubbling or not?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's like, how crazy is it that we just had no clue what was gonna hit us in a couple years? Like, of COVID we had no clue.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Unprecedented in our life. Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or sorry, yes. In our lifetimes. I almost was like, wait, the Spanish flu?

[Georgia Hardstark]

But we weren't there for that in the 21st century. Unprecedented. Yes, Definitely. Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's what I remember when Covid first started. And they were kind of like talking about quarantine, where I was like, how are we going to do this? We've never done it before.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And the answer is we're going to wipe down our cereal boxes and freak the fuck out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Speaking of MFM tattoos, I still haven't gotten one, will I ever? But I did recently have a great idea for Vince and I. What if we got each other's MFM animated characters tattooed on ourselves? How cute would that be if I got the little MFM animated. Vince. And he got the little MFM animated.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, let me explain this to you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I was just thinking of, like, would it. Would Vince.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, never. No, I already said that. He got excited and he reacted like you reacted to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's rephrase it. You're gonna get a tattoo of we watch wrestling, the logo of we watch wrestling across your back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. And he's gonna get mfm.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But I mean, I love those characters. I love the way those characters look. It would be cute if we had.

[Georgia Hardstark]

To get a couple's tattoo. That would be like the fucking cutest thing. Don't you think?

[Karen Kilgariff]

How big it would be, Georgia, as the Mothman on the back of Vince's calf.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. That'd be even cooler if I was.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The Mothman double birds, whole legend.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That would be so cute. Now he already does enough by wearing our merch, which is above and beyond the fucking funniest.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It is the funniest. He's number one. What I really love is when in the live shows just forgetting this part and Vince walking on to tell everybody, here's the mic. And then I'm gonna stand over here. The way that audience loves Vince is the cutest thing in the world. It's so sweet.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love it. They start screaming for him. He loves it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, I just love that we're really laying down the groundwork, the canon of sinkhole, where it's like it's any. If anybody thought I was a fake lover of sinkholes, if I was some sort of bandwagoneer of sinkholes, you can just go right back to this fucking episode.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Karen goes way back. She was into sinkholes before they were cool.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I liked them first.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, let's get into Karen's story about Mark Hoffman.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

An eye on what your kids are.

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[Karen Kilgariff]

Is it's hard sometimes, as we've talked about, to get for me to get my homework done.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, it's yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And especially when I will work on something for a while and then if I have a friend who goes, have you ever heard of this one? I will switch immediately and go do my friend.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I switch. You know, you're halfway done. It's not like you're just reading about it. No, I switch all the time. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And so many of these stories because, you know, you guys are just as into true crime, if not more than either of us. So oftentimes you feel like I'm only telling a third of this story. I know. There's so much more. I should have read an entire book about this. Whatever. That's what other people do. So sometimes I'll bail just because I know a story has much more to it and I should invest more time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're not going to do it justice, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Someone else already has.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But this one was so juicy and I loved it so much. My friend Bridger is the one who told me about it. He's hilarious. He's very famous on Twitter and he's a great writer and he grew up in Utah, so he was like, have you ever heard of this one? And I had never heard anything about it. Turns out there's a Forensic Files. There's lots of stuff. There's an amazing book. But anyway, I'll just give you. I'll Give you what I know. So we're at Salt. We're in Salt Lake City.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, what's this? Is there called, Is it called anything?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm not going to call it anything because I usually do that and then I end up giving it away.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, I totally understand.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, so we're in Salt Lake City, the morning of October 15, 1985.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A man named Steve Christensen, who is a businessman, a husband, a father of four and a bishop of the Mormon Church, he arrives at his office on the sixth floor of the Judge building in downtown Salt Lake City. One time I did a story and it was that horrible one about the woman throwing her kids off the top of the hotel in Utah, in Salt Lake City even.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And in that I threw out the random idea that it was a very, because, you know, all of Utah, I assume, is very Mormon, that Salt Lake City would be a conservative town. Well, I was. Couldn't have been more wrong about that and would like to say now, I now know because of making that mistake that actually Salt Lake City is the liberal part of Utah and it's a college town and it's the hip place. And it's probably best case scenario if you're looking for, I don't know, a great shirt or really cool flats. I don't know. So Steve Christensen gets to his office. He sees a brown wrapped box shaped package in front of his office door and his name's written on top of it. He picks it up and it immediately, immediately explodes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, fuck. Here I thought it was something else. And this is fucking, let's do this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So it was a pipe bomb. Steve is killed. The Department of Alcohol, Tobacco and Fire. Yeah, it was a pipe bomb that was made with concrete. Nails were inside. And concrete nails are the nails you use to pound in. They're not made of concrete. They're the really strong industrial sized nails that you pound into concrete. So the person that made this pipe bomb wanted the person who picked it up to be killed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow, what a bummer. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So the ATF officers arrive, they begin to piece the bomb back together to figure out that it's a pipe bomb. And that was activated by a mercury switch that would go off when the package was picked up and tilted one way or the other. So.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So the minute the mercury like shifts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly. It's in a little glass circuit and it is laying on one side of this little glass thing. And then when you pick it up, if you put it and chip it one way or the other, the circuit connects and that's when the bomb explodes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So they know from a bomb like that that the person that the bomber dropped that box off because they would have to make sure it stays exactly the way it is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And they couldn't mail it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, you can't just give it to somebody else.

[Medical Advertiser]

So.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also inside the bomb were Tandy brand batteries, which is, as many RC enthusiasts know, Tandy is the Radio Shack brand of batteries.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Really?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Uh huh. So they start going around to the local Radio Shacks trying to find out who's bought batteries there, you know, the past week or whatever. They also find out that Steve Christensen had recently worked at a financial company called CFS, which after doing huge business in the 70s and the early 80s, had started losing money and was in serious trouble. So this is the part I actually found really interesting because. So the 80s were like a time of big money. That's when everybody pretended to be rich and preppies and you know, it was like very Izod coke time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And apparently Salt Lake City in that time was a hotbed for financial fraud.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Really?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So what people would do, conmen would go to Salt Lake City and they would kind of like get, get into the Mormon Church. They would either pretend they were Mormons or they would befriend higher ups in the Mormon Church. And then when they would do business, they would like, say they were in securities or whatever, stocks, bonds.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They like, I got a ground floor fucking thing to get in on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly. And then the elders or whoever in the church would be like, oh, this guy is trustworthy. And so then all the parishioners or Mormons, I'm not sure what you call the general word for it, but all the people in that church would then trust that person and buy into whatever thing that that person was bringing to the table, whether it was high finance or also very popular pyramid scheme. Vitamin sales got to be very popular. What the fuck, back then. Yeah. So it was kind of an AM. There was lots of Amway low grade AM kind of bullshit going on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did they get the vitamins? Did they ever get the vitamins?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did they ever get the vitamins they needed? I don't know. But it was a, it was the kind of thing, they call it affinity fraud. And it happens in lots of different, different kinds of religions.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is why my money is under my bed. Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And trust no one. Yeah, it's the same. It's the, the assumption that, quote unquote, one of your own is going to look out for your best interest as opposed to an outsider.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I don't trust anyone, do you?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I'm scared of my fucking cousin.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Isn't financial whatever the fuck. And I like scared. Sorry, niche.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, because it's so anyone can tell you anything, and if you don't know exactly what's going on, it's 100% pure trust.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And if people are that into money, like they're into money and they want it. Yeah, exactly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, well, so it's the same thing Bernie Madoff did to. He got $20 billion, as you well know, watching that documentary from wealthy Jewish people. A guy named Alan Stanford did it to Southern Baptists. He had a 7 million or $7 billion empire that fell. There was even a con man named Monroe L. Beachy who became trusted within the Amish community. And he went to prison for orchestrating a scheme that defrauded 2,700 investors, many of them his friends and neighbors. What a dick. So it's just a very common practice of, like, this idea that your religion would stand for your good morals and that therefore the business is trustworthy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's almost worse con than just clients, because, yeah, these people are trusting because if you're in their religion, it's because you believe the same things they do. You have the same morals.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're going right on the inside. They're not just standing out and rolling the dice that maybe you'll be and maybe not. They're asking you. They're playing on your ultimate faith, which is very ugly. And in the Mormon religion, it was the kind of thing where I believe. I know lots of Mormons. I've grown up. I grew up with Mormons. One of my good friends that I used to work with, Betsy, is a Mormon. And it's a very moralistic. The life they live is really. The whole idea of it is that you live this life based on your faith. So it's like, my friend just said it the other day. He's like, mormons really walk the walk.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So it's not just. And maybe I'm only saying this because of all those design websites that you see these days. And when you trace them back, it's like a young Mormon family, but it's like the most beautiful table setting and the cutest design. And it's like, here's a great thing for your baby.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I've heard so many bloggers, like, famous bloggers or like, the big ones that have beautiful websites are Mormon for some reason. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cause it's kind of like. It's the whole idea of, like, home building and, like, putting the Best into your home.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. And being ambitious and always having something anyways. Yeah, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, these are insane generalizations. Obviously we're not speaking for every single person that's in the religion, but there is just. There's something to that. There's something to that. Where there's a. There is a. There seems to be an innocence that in the 70s and 80s, con man were like, oh, we can exploit this, this community, this sense of community that they have. Okay. Two hours after Steve Christensen's attack, there's another bombing at the home of Gary and Kathy Sheets. Gary Sheets was Steve Christensen's boss at cfs and his wife Kathy was the one who picked up the package. It exploded in her hands and she was killed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God, have I never heard of this?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know. So now the police are thinking that these bombings are related to the failed CFS business dealings. And so it could be retaliation from an old employee or even the mafia. Oh my God. Police talked to the sheet's 13 year old next door neighbor who saw a tan minivan pull into the sheet's driveway the night before around midnight and thought it was suspicious. But all he saw was the car. He didn't see anybody, anybody get in or out. But then they also talked to a jeweler who worked on the fifth floor of the Judge building, one floor below Steve Christensen's office. His name is Bruce Passi. And he tells the police that the morning of the bombing he got into the elevator with his father and there was a man standing in the elevator wearing a letterman jacket but with no letter on it. And he was holding a brown like paper wrapped box that said to Steve Christiansen on the top of it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And so he, Bruce Passi describes this man to the police, saying he's a white male, 5 foot 8, medium brown hair. The next day there's a third bombing. This time it's inside a car and the victim is seriously injured, but he's not killed. It's 30 year old Mark Hoffman. He is rushed to the hospital where he's in critical condition. But he ends up being able to tell the police that he had opened his car door and the package was sitting on the driver's seat. With the action of opening the door, it fell off and exploded.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, good. So he didn't get the full impact.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right, but he had a fingertip blown off. He had a huge wound in his knee where parts of the explosives went into his kneecap, like his knee area. So he was, he was pretty badly injured. But immediately the police Are suspicious because if he had his fingers blown off, that means that the box was in his hands, not on the seat, and then tumbling to the ground. Also with the direction. The guy in Forensic Files explains it really well, but it's basically the way they know bombs explode and the directions they go. If the thing was in his knee, then he could not have been standing out outside of the car. He must have been inside of the car, leaning over. And so they basically reconstruct it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I want to watch that. I'm like, trying to picture it in my head, and I basically they.

[Karen Kilgariff]

With the trajectory of the stuff that flew out of the bomb which hit him, they realize he must have been leaning over the center console holding the box and basically inside the car. So his story. Why would you lie about that? Why wouldn't you just tell him? Exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love when cops figure that out. Like, this person killed themselves. And it's like, no, the trajectory. Like yours last week. The trajectory shows, yes, that that person couldn't have killed themselves.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that's the relatively new forensic part. That's like, what Forensic Files is all celebrating because it's like, you would never have known that until forensics comes in and is like, hold up. So the police search Mark Hoffman's house, and they find a letterman jacket just like the one that Bruce Passi said the guy in the elevator was wearing. And they also see that he has a tan minivan.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And there's gunpowder that they find traces of around his house that match the brand used in all three bombings.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, there you go.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So Mark Hoffman maintains his innocence, says he's the victim, and he demands to take a lie detector test. And he does. They give him a lie detector test, and he passes with flying colors.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So the police start looking into who this guy really is. So Mark Hoffman was born in Salt Lake City on December 7, 1954. Raised in a strict Mormon household, he was a mediocre student. But later he was tested to have an IQ of 169.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Which is insanely high.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's one point over mine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I feel like in stories I've read, people who are like, mad geniuses are usually in like the mid-130s to 140s.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I was gonna say, like, I feel like very, very, very smart. Is like 130.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think so.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But, like, then genius is like 160 something.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And maybe I like us trying to guess what genius IQ levels are in the dumbest way we can.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, I know when my brother was A kid with fucking attention issues. They tested him and he had like one very high up there because it's like, well, he's just fucking bored. Yes, that's why. So. Yeah, and I never. I was not that smart and I was never bored. No, I.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're like, this is fascinating. Just bored.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not smart and bored.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, so he collected coins as a teenager, and when he was. When he was young. That's a weird cut and paste. He collected coins as a teenager, and at some point he forged a rare mint mark on a dime that was verified by an organization of coin collectors to be genuine.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And when he was a kid, he tricked the shit out of fucking professional coin people.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly. He got the taste early of like, you know, it's impressive. I think so too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just don't kill people. Next.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean. So in seven, in 1973, he volunteered to spend two years as an LDS missionary. When he came back from his mission, which was in England, he enrolled as a pre med major at Utah State University. He married doralee old in 1979. They eventually have four children together, and she filed for divorce in 1987. So in 1980, Hoffman claims to have found a 17th century King James Bible with a document inside that he claimed to be the transcript that Joseph Smith, who was the founder of the Latter Day Saint Saints Church, he had a scribe named Martin Harris and was supposed to be a transcript that Martin Harris brought to a Columbia classics professor in 1828 that was originally copied by Joseph Smith from the golden plates from which he translated the Book of Mormon. So I'm going to say this probably incorrectly, but the general idea of the founding of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is Joseph Smith found golden tablets that he dug up, and from those tablets he wrote down the tenets of the religion. And an angel appeared to him as he dug up those tablets to help him. So basically he presents this document. They freak out because they're like, they'd never. It's a historical document from their church they'd never seen before. And the church. Church ends up buying it from Hoffman for $20,000. So this not only sets him financially, but it also sets his reputation as a historical documents dealer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So I wonder where he said he found it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Inside a King James Bible. So he. Okay, so he was already trying to become like a historical book dealer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So one of the book. Okay, that makes sense.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was a really old. It was a 17th century King James B. Bible. So then it was like inside that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Got it, Got it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. So basically he then Starts for the next several years selling forged, quote unquote, lost LDS documents to the church, the most notorious of which was the salamander letter in 1984. So he basically starts forging pieces of historical text and bringing them to the church. And as a church member himself going, I found this, I found this. Now the church is part of it is like a little bit like, oh yeah, we need to be owning these papers. And sometimes he would donate them and sometimes they would buy them from him. But essentially it was text that was relevant to them knowing about their own religion and the founder of their own religion. So. So the one that is the most infamous is the Salamander Letter, which basically said that when Joseph Smith dug up those tablets, it wasn't an angel that appeared to him, but a white salamander. So that was such a change of the historical record.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And they had never heard that before.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They'd never heard it before. It was super freaky and it was kind of like they didn't know if they should announce it. It put them in a really weird position because suddenly it's a very non religious sounding and almost like magical, witchy sounding version of the story of how their church is founded.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. That's a salamander is kind of like not as cool as a snake. Is it a snake? No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, but snakes are in the, in like Christian religion are evil.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So there's, there's just something weird about. It's an albino salamander, like, as opposed to an angel.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Man, I think you could have done better. Well, a bear. An albino bear.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A blue bear.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A blue bear.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, it turned out he was actually forging all of these documents and he had lost his faith when he was a teenager. Like he went on his mission basically. Cause he felt a lot of pressure from his family. Cause he was raised in some such a strict Mormon household. But he, he was trying to embarrass the church. So he was writing these documents and changing these stories and basically adding in little inconsistencies and mistakes so that the church would kind of be scrambling and not knowing what their official approach should be. And he in. And he was like a master forger because he had already sold. Let's see this. Here's the list he had forged. Unpublished poems by Emily Dickinson, signatures of Mark Twain, a full handwritten letter supposedly written by Betsy Ross. No, he tricked the Library of Congress. He tricked Sotheby's. He sold signatures by George Washington, John Adams, John Quincy Adams, Daniel Boone, John Brown, Andrew Jackson.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nathan Hale. John Hancocks, Francis Scott Key. Abraham Lincoln, John Milton.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, wow, this guy is so lucky. He just finds all this shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And makes a shit ton of money off of it. There was somebody named Button Gwinnett.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, there wasn't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

His signature was the rarest and therefore the most valuable of any signer of the Declaration of Independence.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The guy named Button signed the Declaration of Independence.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or girl.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, sure. No way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But Lil Button Gwinnett got up there. He also said he claimed to have discovered a famous document called the Oath of the Free man, which is believed to be, or, you know, some say the precursor to the Declaration of Independence. It's from the 1600s, and it was worth over a million dollars.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. But this. They never knew it existed until he came.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They knew it existed, but they didn't. There were no copies of it in. In America.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So he had claimed he found one and he was trying to sell that, but it was. The sale of that was kind of held up because they were questioning its authenticity.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Finally, someone's like, you know what we should do?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, and in this. It's funny because I think in the forensic files, they start talking about how. Because it's within the Church and the way he did it. He was a master manipulator. He was super smart, so he knew how to do it where they would not. They didn't question the documents because of who he was and what he had already sold. So it was like, well, if he sold something to the Library of Congress and Sotheby's and all these places, what.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are we going to. We're going to question him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. This guy's an expert, and he's a Mormon, so get him all the way in on the inside. But he also would buy really expensive things, so he was always broke. Even though he would make big money on selling these forgeries, he would then buy, like, rare books. And he was buying things so that he could then forge other things later. I mean, it's very complicated. And there's a book called the Poet and the Murderer by Simon Worrell, and that tells the story of Mark Hoffman, but specifically from the view of. Of him pretending to have discovered poems by Emily Dickinson. And the public library in Amherst, Massachusetts, which is where she was from, collects money to buy these heretofore unpublished, lost Emily Dickinson poems that were fake. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What a boomer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He is like a. He was like one of the greatest forgers or the. The most infamous forgers anyone had ever seen. He's working it. He's doing It. So essentially what happened was he was trying to sell some new set of documents to the church. Steve Christensen knew a little bit about antiquities and old documents. And so he was questioning, he was like, I heard this guy is being questioned about the oath of the Freeman. They're not even sure, like he's under investigation. We need to look closer at these.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Papers, calling them out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So what he did was he plants a bomb at Steve Christensen's office to kill him. Then he planted the other one at Gary Sheets house to make it look like it had something to do with CFS instead of anything to do with him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Shit, that's fucking tricky. Yeah, I mean this guy is, you know, tricky.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's a trickster. He was eventually arrested In January of 1986, charged with a total of 27 counts including murder, forgery, possession of an unregistered machine gun and Jesus Christ. Yeah, that's it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Literally Jesus Christ and a salamander.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So he. Albino. Salamander.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Albino. You can't forget the albino part.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean that all of their beliefs for hundreds of years are one thing. And then he gives them paper that's like. It turns out an albino salamander had a say.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They're like, you know, an angel. Sounds cooler. So we're just gonna stick with that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're like, we now we need to have a really big meeting and what.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If we have to start fucking praying to an albino salamander?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, would that ever even have been a choice?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They say also. So he had like 600 forgeries that got sold and are in the market where they're still finding them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I was going to ask.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So they're apparently. And he wrote a letter from jail explaining which things that he did were forgeries because some things obviously when he started out he kind of. There were valid ones. But they're saying that there's some Daniel Boone signatures out there that are fake. That because there were hardly any in the first place. But then Mark Hoffman comes along and suddenly there's four that are in the marketplace which brings the value down and it turns out three of them aren't real.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you think that his forgeries are now worth money? A lot of money. Money.

[Karen Kilgariff]

To murderino types.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Or like is there a forgers museum I'd go to that I would do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean I think overall the historical signatures are going to be worth the most of course, because they're like the, you know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But I feel like some. There's got to be like Smithsonian or some kind of thing that's just like, you know, it's history.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Look at this rap bastard.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, look in that department. Look what happened.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just think it's funny that he did it so much and when you see the paper, like, he would bake the paper in the oven.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. I was gonna ask for lighter.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, exactly. Like an old Western.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All that. They found all this. You know, they found ink that he specifically mixed to match. But then the. When the. The guy who finally started investigating it forensically, he was like, the new ones all glow blue underneath a microscope because they're new. And so he was just really easily able to, once they knew, start investigating all of them and just be like, none of this is real.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I bet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry. This letter from Betsy Ross.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's crazy. I bet he'd be good at the lettering challenge.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He might be.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's gotta have good handwriting.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He would add in. He'd be like, I believe that this is a real. I don't know where I was going. But anyhow. He initially maintained his innocence, but at a preliminary hearing, the prosecutors showed so much evidence of his forgeries and his debts and all of the evidence linking him to the bombs that instead of risking the death penalty, he pled guilty to two counts of second degree murder, a count of theft by deception for the Salamander letter, an account of fraud for the sale of the McClellan collection, which was that last collection he was trying to sell. When Steve Christensen stepped in, he confessed all of his forgeries in open court. He was. In January 1988, he was sentenced to five years to life in prison. He's spending life in prison?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Five.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And he's still there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Still there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep. That's Mark Hoffman, everybody.

[Georgia Hardstark]

At first I thought you were going, like, towards the Ted Kaczynski route when I heard about a bomb, but that's fucking crazy. I've never heard about that. Oh, to be killed by a bomb. Do you ever open envelopes and you're like, I don't know what this is going to be?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Well, that's my moth's thing. I never think it's a mom, though. A bomb, though.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, I.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or a mom. Just a mom coming to tell me to sweep up the kitchen. Honey, do those dishes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, what is that? Fear.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're just sitting there. You let them soak for too long.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. You can't just let things soak in cold water, Karen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's true. But also, this was the 80s when, like, this was back when you could walk into an office building with a plain package. I feel like, you know, as worrisome as it all sounds, we don't live in that world anymore. It's like that was definitely a very pre 911 era.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Except I have. Yeah. But maybe not. You know what I mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm scared.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know. I know. You can be.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow. That's up. Good job. Thank you. Thanks. And good job.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. Okay, we're back. Karen, do you have any updates?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I have a couple. Mark Hoffman is still in prison. He's never given an interview to the press.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Press.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's only corresponded with his family from prison. Netflix had a three part docu series that covered this case called Murder among the Mormons. And victim Kathy Sheets daughter Gretchen Sheets McNees grew up to actually be a detective with the Salt Lake City Police Department because she wants to ensure that Hoffman is remembered for what he is, which is a cold blooded murderer. And she told the Deseret Times, I think they've kind of idolized him and given him a unique status. I don't think he deserves. Yes, he did those four forgeries, but he also killed two people and didn't care who he killed. End quote.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's so important when we cover these cases that we're not like idolizing these people and thinking like, especially when we do live shows and we're like, okay, what if the victim's cousin or brother or sister were in the audience?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

How would they feel if we were saying this thing and making them seem like a hero when they're not?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or like, you know, some kind of anti hero. Like, we don't want to do that. We try really hard not to do that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. But it's the kind of awareness that we definitely had to develop over time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it is the kind of thing, it's like hearing from people and knowing and basically thinking that it made the job a little bit harder because it was that thing of like, what if someone is there? And then it's like, then if someone is there, write to that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like represent them while you're putting everything else together and don't be cheap about it. Which is what we thought when we started this podcast. Yes. We were in this like third person away commentator kind of thing. But no one is that in true crime.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. Totally. And knowing that, like, you know, history is written by the victors, like, don't take the reporting and the, you know, what's been written and Documented about it as face value because there's so many sides to the story, you know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

And weirdly, the victim side. It's new for the victim side to be considered first to have that part of it. Or like, I think you even just in the beginning, when we would just call serial killers pieces of shit, felt very revolutionary. Cause it's like, oh, my God, can you believe they're saying that? And it's like, it's a serial killer. I remember, like, I remember getting into an argument with a guy who was really mad about toxic masculinity. Ruins the party again. And he was, like, all pissy about it. Cause he was a men's rights activist, essentially. And I remember saying to him, I was like, you do know I'm talking about John Wayne Gacy's father. Right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, there's a context to this conversation, and it's about serial killers and how that comes to be.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally. Like, that's what you're defending.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're defending us being mean to serial killers. Why? What do you mean?

[Georgia Hardstark]

And you were saying specifically toxic masculinity. So he's defending toxic masculinity, not masculinity. Yes, toxic. Okay, dude.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. The game is you're not allowed to talk about us.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And what we were saying without realizing it is we can talk about whatever the fuck we want to talk about, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Absolutely.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Okay, so let's get into Georgia's story now. And, man, what a timely fucking story it is, too. It's the story of the Central Park Five.

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[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm glad we were talking about the 80s and you explained kind of like the money stuff, because mine takes place in the 80s, too, and has a lot to do with class wars and all this stuff. Maybe. Should I not tell you the name of it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Whatever you think, because I think you'll.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Know immediately about it. Okay, all right, I'm gonna. Yeah, I'm not gonna tell you. Okay, all right. So New York, late 80s, it's insane. Jim Dwyer of the New York Times calls it completely schizophrenic. You've got one side where there's just insane wealth from Wall Street. Everyone's getting fucking rich and doing coke and having Izods and such. Like we said, the financial industry is booming after a long period of stagnation. And it got so bad, like in the 70s and I think early 80s, that the city of New York was going to file for bankruptcy. Do you remember that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I didn't know that about New York City.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The city was going to file for.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Bankruptcy, but I mean, it really was so bad in the 70s and like the late 70s and the Carter administration, where it was just like recession, huge.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Recession, like we've talked about before, gas lines, you couldn't get gas on certain days. I mean, the whole country was going through this. But New York City, because they had so much violence and that sort of thing, I feel like it was a lot worse. And in fact, so during the financial crisis of the 70s, a ton of neighborhoods in Brooklyn and the Bronx, the homeowners and the landlords were light lighting the apartment buildings on fire and burning them to the ground just to collect insurance money. So all these people had nowhere to live and they left them like that. So there are these, you know, looks like how you see how you saw Detroit for a little while. Just, you know, it's insane.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry. There's a movie now, I can't remember what it's called and Albert Finney is in it and they have. It's basically like. It's basically a kind of a werewolf in New York City movie. But there's parts of it where I think it's the Bronx or it's just people maybe like kids, whatever, playing in like their vacant lawns are filled with just burned out debris. Wolfen, Wolfen, Wolfen. That's exactly right. It's kind of a kooky, supposed to be scary, goofy movie. But you can see all that where it's like now New York City is pristine and amazing. And of course like the real estate.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is like once Giuliani took over and made it fucking Disneyland. But there's also photo. Not that I think that it's better when I was standing, but there's photographs. You can go. There's a couple great photo. What are they? Slideshows of New York in the 70s and 80s. And I mean, just the subways alone are terrifying.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And. Yeah. And they had kids playing on like mattresses and vacant, burned out. It's just. It's crazy. Crazy. And especially I think younger people who never saw that should go and look those photos because you'd be. You'd be very surprised.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's where all that punk rock came from.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. It was mostly in black and Latino neighborhoods that this burning down was doing. Let's see. Both unemployment rates and crime rates were at an all time high. And because of the bankruptcy coming up, police and firefighters had been laid off. Municipal services were cut, including sanitation. And after school programs were totally cut. So these kids who had working parents had nowhere to go after school. So they were on their own in this insane city. And during this time, Son of Sam was on the loose.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So people were fucking terrified of that as well. And then there was the blackout of 79, and there's a fucking great American experience called the blackout. And I fucking. Everyone should watch it. It's so good. And it shows what it was like at that time. And after that there were these crazy fires and looting and it never really got cleaned up. So you have abandoned buildings, you have all these, this stuff. So then in the early 80s Wall street suddenly boomed, created crazy wealth for people. I mean, the wealth they had compared to what normal people had even was insane. And then the other side of the city is experiencing crazy poverty. The crack epidemic starts. Crazy violence that's fed by an understaffed, a lot of times, racist and corrupt police department that is, you know, horrible. And there's class tensions and racial unrest. In about 84, crack came to New York and that just increased the crime. The crack wars came. So also giving really young kids access to a lot of money and weapons. So you just have these young kids and teenagers, you know, with. Yeah, all hell breaks loose.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's. That was like the way to get a job and to get out of. Of the hood.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Basically was. And for some of them, it was the only way. Yeah, I always. There's an amazing movie called Fresh. It's one of my favorite movies of all time. I've never seen it. It's really good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's a double feature with this other.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Movie with the Andy Williams Christmas special. It's such. It's about a black kid who's trying to figure out a way to get out of the bad neighborhood and the bad situation he's in. And it is so brilliantly written and brilliantly shot and it's. I. It's one of my favorite movies.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I definitely want to watch that. Yeah, we need a fucking. I need. And I'm sure other people want. It's just a lineup of movies you suggest because it's never me. It's. I think I suggest documentaries like Ken Burns. And you're like, here's this movie that'll change your life. And I'm like, I've never seen it. So we're going to need someone to make a list of those movies.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're going to need someone with a mustache to write that down.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Only we have. Oh, shit. I owe you money. I owe you a paycheck. I forgot. I didn't forget. Oh, Stephen, I'm sorry. So crack came, hell breaks loose. All right. On a typical day in 1989, which is where the story takes place, New yorkers reported not one day, nine rapes, five murders, 255 robberies, and 194 aggravated assaults.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Shit. And that's later in the 80s, 80s.

[Georgia Hardstark]

89.

[Karen Kilgariff]

God.

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[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So. So the people who are experiencing this, of course, are the poor working class families. They're falling through the cracks. Brown and Latino, black and Latino communities in mostly Bedford Stuy in Brooklyn, Harlem, Brownsville, East New York. These neighborhoods are experiencing all of this. And then you have the Upper east side of rich as people. People. All right, for example. And then I'll get on to the story. In 1984, Bernard Gets. He was a 37 year old Queens native. White dude, nerdy white dude. He's on the subway and he starts getting accosted by four young black men. They tried to mug him and he takes out a gun and shoots all four of them. They all survived, but he became known as a fucking subway vigilante. People celebrated him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And he was ultimately found not guilty on all charges except for possession of an illegal firearm and sentenced to one year in prison for shooting four people.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So. All right, so let's.

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[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry, but that's also the time that they started doing Guardian Angels.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Where they were. It was almost like people didn't believe anyone was going to help them with crime. And like the Bernard Goetz thing was such a. A racially kind of motivated situation. But also it's just the. These everybody. It's the irony of like what you just said was the people that were in the worst neighborhoods, which were demographically minorities and people of color, were actually getting the worst of this crime. But then it's like the white vigilante that starts shooting everybody.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know what I mean?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's not like, yeah, you don't go to these neighborhoods and everybody know there's work. These are working class people, meaning they're working their asses off and they're not going to be able to move into other neighborhoods. There's so much racism. There's kind of this race war between white people and people of color. But it's, you know, it's not everyone who's. They're being affected more so right by this. So. Okay, so we'll get into this. Let's get into the Central park five and the east side race.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, shit, dude.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. All right, I'm going to There. You sound all right. Like you're not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I mean, this is just one of the heaviest. The thing that I remember most about this case is how go. You know what?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Go ahead, tell me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no, no. It's just. It was such a big deal and this was like when I was in high school.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I remember I was maybe 10, so I didn't. My mom kept that away from me. So you'll have to jump in at any time. Tell me stuff.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right. The night of Wednesday date April 19, 1989, around 9:00pm, approximately 30. 30. God, I'm burping. Sorry. 30 teenagers who lived in East Harlem went into the northmost part of Central park and they proceeded to commit several attacks, assaults and robberies. Can you imagine 30 teenagers? I don't care what. What fucking nationality or color they are, I would run.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, teenagers are bad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Teenagers are bad people.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Teenagers are horrible. Also, two teenagers are fine. Yeah, 30 teenagers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

30.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The volume alone.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. I don't care if they're women. Girls, I fucking run.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think girls are worse.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Here's the thing, though. Were the. Do we know for a fact that they were committing those crimes or was that that. Was that, like, a fact?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, I can. Yeah, I have a list of great, great crimes they were actually committing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So I don't. Yeah, it's hard because you want to see every. Everyone is innocent, but they, you know, and it was 30, so who knows how many of them are actually doing it. Right, Right. So they attacked several bicyclists, threw rocks at a cab and attacked. Who they assaulted, robbed, and left unconscious. A schoolteacher out from a run was severely beaten. They attacked another jogger, hitting him in the back of the head with a pipe and a stick. And they beat two men unconscious, hitting them with a metal pipe, stones, and punches, and kicking them in the head.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So there was a group of these 30 kids, and they were basically kind.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Of wilding throughout the park.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, that's the word that was created later.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. So a chase ensued by the police, and around 10, 15, a handful of the kids are taken into custody, including Kevin Richardson and Raymond Santana, and they're both 14 years old. So these are young kids and they're charged with, quote, mischief. So cut to 1:30 in the morning, passerbys discover the unconscious body of Trisha Miley in a shallow ravine in a wooded area of the park. Wearing only her bra, Trisha had gone for a run on her usual path in Central park before 9am I mean, sorry, 9pm that evening. And then when her almost lifeless body was found about four hours later, she had been knocked down, dragged or chased 300ft and violently assaulted. She was stabbed five times, raped, sodomized, and beaten almost to death. The first policeman who saw her said she was beaten as badly as anybody I've ever seen. Meanwhile, back at the police station, the kids were about to be released from custody when a police officer. Officer. Was told about Trisha being found. And then what followed was hours of intense interrogation, using tactics to get them to wear them down, as now we know. That's how you get a Confession, whether it's legitimate or not, exhaust them. They get no food, no drink, no sleep for almost two days it takes. And they're repeatedly told that they could go home once they confessed. And then eventually after like two days, the boys turn against each other. They tell them, they admit just to, you know, go home. And these are 14, 15 year old children that aren't bad kids. So there's this documentary by Ken Burns and his daughter and it's this incredible documentary that I definitely think everyone should watch called the Central Park Five. And they talk about the kids backgrounds and they're all good kids, kids from good homes. None of them had ever, ever been arrested or taken in before. You know, they were little league baseball players. They were not bad children. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So they also, when there's a group of 30, how do they know who threw what rock, who threw like what? Basically, it's the slowest kids get arrested.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, go ahead. The thing is, later, none of the people who had been attacked that night, aside from Tricia, were able to identify any of the boys who got, who were brought in for this attack. So they probably didn't have anything to do with it, otherwise they would have been identified.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So they implicate each other in the assault. The boys begin to confess after two days. I already said that. So in their written statements and videotaped confessions, each confessed to being an accomplice to the rape, although not participating in, in the rape itself. And they start telling details of what happened and how. And then they implicate three other boys in the attack. And they're picked up for question. Anton McCrae, who's 15, Yusef Salaam, who's 15, and Corey Wise, who's 16. And they ultimately all confess except for Yusuf Salaam along with. And then along with the other two boys, the five of them are arrested and charged with the attack. Attack. The media fucking loses its shit, which is such a big part of the story. Right. And probably how you heard about all of this is it was huge news. And the story kind of confirmed, you know, the white New Yorker's image of what's wrong with the city and confirms their racial prejudices. The boys, when they confessed, were calling it that they were wilding, which is a phrase that became huge. And everyone used to. And it was kind of this reference to them all being these untamed, you know, children running amok. They formed, quote, a wolf pack, which is also was what they made up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So sorry, those were the boys words. Yeah, like that's what they Were telling the police wilding.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, they called it wilding, which they made up. And then the underage suspects names were printed. Despite the fact that the names of criminal suspects under the age of 16 are supposed to be withheld from the media and the public. Public, they also print the. So they. The names, photos and addresses.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No way of the juvenile suspects before.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Any of them had been formally arraigned or indicted. Wow. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Who did it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

What was it that. I just think that at that point, it was so many of them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But it's basically the tabloid.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, the tabloid. Seeds. Seeds. Cd. None of them are arrested. And they retracted their statement within weeks, claiming that they had been intimidated, lied to and coerced into making false confessions. And the confessions themselves were videotaped after they had been interrogated and confessed and written statements. That part wasn't taped at all. So they had no way to show that they were being fed information and coerced.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So they only taped the part where they said, I did it or someone else did it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They only taped the part after all this, when they. They had their stories down and they knew the details they were supposed to be talking about.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Didn't tape any of the part where they make them tell the story 500 times.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. Or you've seen these things where they say, is that what happened? That's not what happened. Tell me the truth. And they kind of feed it in this really creepy way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They lead them into the correct story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. And who knows if they even do it. Do the cops do it on purpose, do you think? Detectives. I just don't think they even know for the most part.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It seems like for a long time it was just the way things were done until people, lawyers and whoever, you know, rights activists came back and were just like, you can't tell them how it went. And then when they repeat that back to you because they want a sip of water or they want to go home, use it against them?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, it's the whole thing too. Of like, that shouldn't be admissible. The confession videotape should not be admissible in court because there's no background right. As to. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like apropos of nothing, essentially.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. So meanwhile, Trisha's injuries are so bad that she's given last rights. Like, they think she's going to die. But after being comatose for 12 days, she survives and was eventually able to talk, read and walk, but she had no memory of the night of the assault whatsoever. So now the trial. So usually the homicide detective, usually they look at in. Okay. Instead of the homicide unit getting put on the case because they thought she was going to die, Linda Fairstein of the sex, head of the sex crimes unit and her prosecutor Elizabeth Letterer were put on the case. And for some reason they're part of the police investigation from day one. So they're helping investigate this case, thinking that these five kids did it and building the case around that. So they get to analyze the crime scene, they get to do all of these things that. That clearly are gonna lead the case for the prosecutors, you know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But they were supposed to be the defense.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, they're the prosecutors. Right, they're the sex crimes unit and the prosecutors. And they are investigating case from the minute it happened.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. And that's not normal.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, because this way they can skew the results in the direction they want, which is immediately for these five boys.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So they're, you know, usually the prosecutors and the defense team attorneys wouldn't get the information till after the whole investigation has been completed by the detectives or the sex. The sex crimes unit, which is this woman who allowed her prosecutor to be in on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, oh, I see. Okay, got it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That makes sense.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. So the boys are brought to trial. 16 year old Corey Wise is being tried as an adult for some reason because he's 16, and the newspapers are going nuts. The case of a white woman being attacked by a rowdy group of black teenagers stirring up the racism in the city, which kind of was this underlying thing that no one was talking about. But finally they had something to point at and be like, this is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was the equal opposite of the Bernie Goetz situation. Yeah, it was basically. Yeah, that's kind of retribution. The idea of retribution and piling it all very conveniently on these five boys.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So for example, the night of the Central park rake, a woman in Bedford sty was raped and thrown off a building. Never fucking talked about in the media. And that same week that this happened, 28 rapes were reported, but those were not being reported by the media. But the black community even turned against the boys as well, some of them, because they were having their own run ins with the black youths who insulted and intimidated those people in their own neighborhood. And they felt that they were giving the whole community a reputation as, you know, drug dealers and felons. Right. So even the, you know, the black community was fucking pissed about them. Oh, and good old Trump puts out a full page ad in four newspapers calling for the death penalty to be reinstated in New York even though the death penalty wasn't even on the table for this. He just puts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And at the time he was, was, he was a slumlord.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A very wealthy one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A very wealthy slum lord.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A very wealthy businessman. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Who made money off of basically being a slumlord.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, and casinos.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. Okay. And then the City sun newspaper and the Amsterdam New Amsterdam News used a victim's name in their paper despite the media policy of not publicly identifying victims of sex crimes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So they gave out her name even though we weren't supposed to. And they said it's because, well, if ever the other people are willing to put out the boys names, then she should have her name out too, which is like so fucked up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, that doesn't. No, that's not a one to one nope thing at all.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But it sounds like this was the Wild west essentially.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, this sounds like the worst 89 man, the 80s. Just this like. Yeah, Wild, wild west. So the analysis was done on the DNA that was collected at the crime scene and it didn't match a single one of the suspects. They also didn't have any hair, any, any evidence. And the crime scene looked like, it didn't look like five people could have been attacking someone. It looked like a single person was attacking someone. There was like this small little path that was walked up and taken Trisha away from the main road. But there's, there wasn't, you know, beat up dirt or anything like that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So it was like she was down in a ravine and there was like one track down to her body and back up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not like five people walked down.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. And when the boys got in there, they didn't have any mud or dirt on them. And the other thing is if she were fighting back, which they said, the cops said that she put up a hell of a fight. They would all have scratches and crazy things on there. One kid had, one of them had a scratch on his eye, but that it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So the DNA collected and so when the DNA was collected and didn't match, the prosecutors just said that they must have been, there must have been a sixth one of them then that the DNA matches and still brought them to trial with a case that was almost entirely based on the confession, circumstantial. So okay, so the, the four boys, Kevin, Yusuf, Anton and Raymond, are convicted of rape, assault, robbery and riot. And the attacks, they were 15 years old and 14, so they got maximum sentence for juveniles, which is 5 to 10. But Corey Wise is 16 and Triton is adult, so he gets 5 to 15 in fucking Rikers, which is like a hardcore prison. And going in as a rike. A rapist, especially against a white woman, where there's a lot of Aryan people in the prison.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is ugly. All right, well, the summer that the attack on Trisha occurred, there's a serial rapist terrorizing the Upper east side called the east side Rapist.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. I just got a weird chill.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did you remember this?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I've never heard of this before.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, like, so you know that story, but you don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know that story very well. All I know is that the mentality at the time was they caught some. This was the mentality. They caught some of them and they're going to jail. Like, good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And everyone. Yeah, everyone rejoiced.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Everyone was absolutely. And I feel like in general, unquestionably swallowing the story that was being fed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Everyone, I mean, they wanted it to be solved and it was a perfect backdrop and proof of what was going on and what they, they'd been saying was going on and what they were mad about. And something to say, this is why I feel this way about, you know, this is why my racism is justified.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly right. And to say, as if this is the only. These are the only people that are breaking the law in New York City, that this. And that to me is the, that's the thing I feel like all the way up to, and obviously until very recently, but like around the O.J. trial, where it's this idea of you don't just get to say who is, who is innocent and who is guilty. But like, you don't just get to pull people through the, the legal system and just be like, there, the problem is solved. Because if you have, if it's a setup, which many of them have been, you still have somebody that's guilty out there doing it totally. And who knows what color that person is. But you've now not solved the problem, ruined people's lives, supported racial stereotypes, not told an accurate story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So. But this is how the story ended in 2002. Okay, so the summer that the attack happened, a serial rapist named the east side Rapist is fucking terrorizing everyone. August 5, 1989. 17 year old Matias Reyes is caught after raping, raping another victim. He's the east side Rapist. The east side Rapist, he. So the woman who was raped noted to detectives that she saw fresh stitches on his chin. And it was right after the attack on Trisha. So he ultimately confessed to one murder, five rapes, two attempted rapes, and the rape and murder. The murder was Lord Lourdes Gonzalez, and she was pregnant, and her three children heard through the bedroom. So August 5th, you've got this guy getting caught for rape and saying that he murdered people. And then on April, in April, a couple months before that, this rape of Trisha happened, this attack. So after being in prison, he's in prison for more than a decade for the murder. In 2002, he finds God. Reyes finds God, comes forward and says that he is the attacker of Trisha. He did it. So he then goes on to detail how he followed raped, brutally beat her, and then details that the five that the Central Park Five never got right. They never even had similar stories of what happened. They were all different.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And he just tells exactly how it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Really went from where he threw the socks to where he threw the keys. And why. Because he was mad that she wouldn't give him her address so he could break into her house. So he threw the keys. And they had always wondered what the deal with the keys were exactly, what she was wearing, that she had a Walkman that was stolen, and they weren't sure if there was a Walkman involved. She. All her friends said she always ran with a Walkman.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And he said it, too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Which it wasn't even at the scene. So the fact that he knew about it meant, you know, he was there. He definitely fucking did it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And the DNA is then tested, and it's his DNA.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, man.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So let's see the detective who his. Who gave him. Who gave the same. He took. The statement said Matias Reyes is one of the top five lunatics he's interviewed in more than 20 years investigating homicides. The five boys had already been released from prison. They're adults now, but they were struggling because they were now sex offenders on the sex offenders registry. And Raymond Santana was still in jail because he had a drug charge. He took to selling drugs because he couldn't get a job with a sex offender on his. As a sex offender.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But his sentencing because of that drug charge, because of his prior convictions was longer. So he was still in prison based on his prior conviction. So he's released. And then in 2002, Manhattan District Attorney Robert Morgenthau threw out the convictions in the Central park jogger case. The five are exonerated. And in 2014, New York City paid them $41 million as a settlement.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Really? Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Are you crying? Yeah, yeah. 41 million. That's like we up so hard. Yeah. So the prosecutors, the. The woman who was the prosecutor, the sex offender unit head, refuses to admit that they were wrong. She's now a teacher at some big college, and they're like, starting a petition to get her kicked out because she used to this case as one of the highlights of her career.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So she can't say it's true. She says maybe there were six of them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Still sticks to that story, and doesn't acknowledge the hard evidence of the lunatic rapist who admitted he did it. Why would you admit you did something and did it alone and then actually have the hard evidence and know the details? I mean, that's very difficult to deny, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. And then, so the police, detectives, a lot of them, won't admit that they were wrong. And of course, Trump refuses to admit. He says, look at the confession. So he's still stuck on this confession, which, as we know now, so many confessions are coerced easily.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. Especially out of children.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally. As for the victim, Tricia had five months of rehabilitation. She returned, and then she returned to running in Central Park. In 95, she ran the New York City Marathon. And in 2003. So she had been anonymous up until then. In 2003, she comes out with a published. Publishes a memoir called I Am the Central Park Jogger.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I remember that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know. I want to know what she thinks about thinking that these five boys were her attackers for so long and then having to switch her brain completely. It's just so scary. And I feel so much for her just based on that. And now then she began a career as an inspirational speaker. She works with victims of sexual assault and brain injury in the Mount Sinai section. Sexual Assault and Violence Intervention Group. So that's the Central Park Five and the east side Rapists.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow. Huge.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's such a huge story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did I tackle that okay? Did I give it justice?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, this is. I feel like, especially in this day and age, it's so difficult to talk. The first thing I thought of while we were talking about this is I remember one time, a long time ago, we were talking about something, and the way we intimated it, it made it sound like what we were saying is all people of color live in the ghetto.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And we got a lot of people who wanted to talk to us about that, where that is in no way what we meant, but it was like the wording of how it sounded. And so I would just point that out that, you know, like, this isn't the assumption that because you are of color, you Live in the worst part of the Bronx. And it doesn't mean that because you're of color, you go wilding. Like, none of. None of what we're talking about is to say every single person was living only this one way in New York in that time. I'm sure there was tons of, you know, upwardly mobile black people and people, Hispanic people and people of color that lived on the Upper west side. So it's not. It's not that. But I think that the lines are absolutely drawn because back then, the white. Like, it was basically white men ran most media, and white men were the cops, usually for the majority, I would say. And so that was the story that we were always given, and that was the story people were reacting to, and that's what we're talking about.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, it's just so hard because with this podcast, like, you know, I don't want to do. The thing that so many people talk about is that, like, blonde white women, that's all like the stories we cover, which I don't think we do. But, you know, I want to give. I want to tell them the stories because I want to represent as many people as we can, as many victims as we can, which I totally think these boys are victims in this story. But, you know, it's hard. As a white woman, I try to empathize, but I'll never. I know I'll never understand completely what's going on. So, you know, like the Mike Treece Richardson case, I just really want to. I just want to make sure that we're covering them, but I know it's never going to be perfect, definitely.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So it's a bit of a risk to even talk about them because everything is very loaded these days. And I think people. It makes people feel better. If you make. If you misspeak about something, it makes people feel better to tell you how wrong you are. It makes it feel like that's making a difference, which it definitely is. I mean, in some ways, but. But I guess our hesitation is when you put stuff like that out there, it's easy to say something incorrectly or sound insensitive or make it sound like you're making a generalization.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. I don't want to do that. I tried very hard not to. But please email us. We're always open to hear your story or have your corrections.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And they know that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, Jesus, that's the one thing we do get, I think.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But I think what's better than not not covering it because it's too loaded is just not talking about it at all. And so I think that's important as well.

[Karen Kilgariff]

To talk about it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, yes, definitely. Especially for people who have a podcast, you know, who are talking specifically about murder and podcasts. In a podcast, it's like, we can't just cover the easy ones.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, and also the ones that have been covered, because you're exactly right. That's the thing of. It's the blonde cheerleader. When the blonde cheerleader goes missing, saying, everybody freaks out. Because the society that's built up around us has basically said, well, that's what makes the money. That's what sells the newspapers. There's a lot of, like, very convenient rationale that goes into why we talk about some murders and crimes and why we don't talk about others. I think that example of, like, a woman who was raped and then thrown off a building on the very same night and no one has heard of that story, I think that's very kind of symbolic. And I think it's that thing of, like, it's just good. It's good to start trying to open your eyes. I think it's a hard thing for some people to do. There's some people that'll never be able to do it, but if you can try, I think it's important. I think it is going to help. Our society needs this kind of help very badly, definitely, to come together and to be like, I get it. Nobody's, you know, horror is worse than another person's horror.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then for you and I to. To kind of. To kind of open the conversation up because we're two white women, and then it's not, you know, that we're trying to understand what's going on in other people's worlds and. No, take that out. That sucked. No, I had it and then it was gone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, we're back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Back.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Are there any updates on this case, Georgia?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, there are. So here's where the exonerated five are today. Yusuf Salaam became a board member of the Innocence Project and has advocated for criminal justice reform, particularly for juveniles. In 2016, he won a lifetime achievement award from Barack Obama. He won the Democratic nomination and seat for New York City Council's 9th district in 2023.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Raymond Santana started a clothing company called Park Madison NYC and donates a portion of its proceeds to the Innocence Project.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I didn't know that. Park Madison, NYC people should know that so they can buy that stuff just to support him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Absolutely. Corey Wise remained in New York, where he works with the Innocence Project. To advocate for the rights of the wrongly convicted as well as criminal justice reform. Antron McCrae is married with six children and lives in Georgia. Georgia. Kevin Richardson served as an advocate with Santana and Salaam to reform New York state's criminal justice practices, advocating methods to prevent false confessions and Eyewitness misidentifications. In 2019, Netflix released a four part miniseries on the case which is so incredible. Called When They See Us. The series was highly praised and won a Peabody Award in recognition of its powerful storytelling around racial justice and state violence. Violence. And in December 2022, a Central park entrance was renamed Gate of the Exonerated to honor the five men.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

On October 21, 2024, the exonerated five sued Trump for defamation in federal court in Philadelphia after Trump once again claimed they were guilty during a 2024 presidential debate. Which is. Oh, wow. Facts. Let's not just. Let's not even pay attention to of them. Trump tried to have the case thrown out, but Judge Wendy be rejected. Trump's motion to dismiss the case and the case is still going through the courts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right, so let's head back now to wrap this show up. Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right. So something positive.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's how we end this so everyone doesn't get bummed. Do you want to go first?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, you go first.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. The good thing that happened to me, you know, I said I went last week to a new psychiatrist. The fucking change in medication is already working. Oh, really? I am. It just makes me so hopeful when I wake up in the morning and I'm not exhausted all day, you know, and I'm sleeping at night without any pills. It's just like, makes me really hopeful.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know, I had two days of not exhaustion and I was just so happy about it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. What's yours?

[Karen Kilgariff]

My friend? I have a friend. My friend Kevin Farzad has a band called Shore Shore, and they have new music coming out. They're truly one of my favorite bands. It's like the kind of music you can put on. Like, I just feel so stressed out lately, and I think a lot of people have been. It's the kind of music that's like, super catchy and great, but it's not, like, invasive. I can't explain it. It's just very good. I totally recommend it. I think they're coming out with a new album soon, but I will be retweeting their music. I'm just a big believer in. Sure, sure. The band. I love it. And so I Think everyone should listen to them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's a good one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Music is such an important part of.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, the human existence, the human.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Experience and life and happiness. Okay, we are back.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So this episode was originally titled My Own Sinkhole.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If we were naming it today, maybe we would call it oh, my God, I love this one so much.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Too many fish. Which never sounded wrong to me. His still, to this day, doesn't sound wrong to me. I'm like. As I read plenty of fish. I'm like, oh, got it. That makes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think. That is so. Like, that is such a. What's it called? Freudian. A Freudian slip.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Freudian slip, yeah. Too many fish.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, it says just something about you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can'T get involved with those fish.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's too many and there aren't plenty. There's no fucking way there's plenty.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no, no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. The other one could be called really Aunt Mary, where we talk about tattoos.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We all make our whole family get tattoos. That's also some toes is one of the weirder. Yeah, like, that's the tattoo I want everyone to get. Also one point over mine, which is George's amazing joke about her IQ. 168, baby.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I forgot about that. Great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, that's the episode. That's this week's episode of Rewind.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's let Elvis say goodbye from 2017. Thank you guys for listening.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, stay sexy and don't get murdered. Bye, Elvis. Elvis. Cookie boy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cookie.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Elvis want cookie. Come here. He's coming.

[Pets Best Advertiser]

Elvis.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What? Cookies. Cookie, come here. There he comes. Want a cookie?

[Karen Kilgariff]

At cvs, it matters that we're not just in your community, but that we're part of it. It matters that we're here for you when you need us, day or night. And we want everyone to feel welcomed and rewarded. It matters that CVS is here to fill your prescriptions and here to fill your question.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Craving for a tasty and, yeah, healthy snack.

[Karen Kilgariff]

At cvs, we're proud to serve your community because we believe where you get your medicine matters. So Visit [e-mail] or just come by our store.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We can't wait to meet you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Store hours vary by location this time of year, most of us are checking off our holiday gift lists. But identity thieves have lists, too, and your personal information might be on them. Protect your identity with Lifelock. Lifelock monitors millions of data points every.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Second and alerts you to threats you could miss.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If your identity is stolen, LifeLock will fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Make this season about joy. Not Identity theft with LifeLock. Save up to 40% your first year.

[Georgia Hardstark]

At LifeLock.com iHeart Terms Apply Homes.com knows.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Having the right agent can make or break your home search. That's why they provide home shoppers with an agent directory that gives you a detailed look at each agent's experience, like the number of closed sales in a specific neighborhood, neighborhood, average price range, and more. It lets you easily connect with all the agents in the area you're searching so you can find the right agent with the right experience and ultimately, the right home for you. Homes.com, we've done your homework with Venmo Stache a taco in one hand and ordering a ride in the other means you're stacking cash back. Nice get up to 5% cash back with Venmo Stash on your favorite brands when you pay with your Venmo Debt debit card. From takeout to ride shares, entertainment, and more, pick a bundle with your gotos and start earning cash back at those brands. Earn more cash when you do more with Stash. Venmo stash terms and exclusions apply. Max $100 cash back per month. See terms at Venmo Me Stash Terms.