Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 77: Live At The Keswick Theatre

Summary

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My Favorite Murder: Rewind with Karen & Georgia – Episode 77 “Live At The Keswick Theatre” (Released December 31, 2025)

Episode Overview

In this nostalgic “Rewind” episode, hosts Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark revisit their Philadelphia live show (originally released July 13, 2017). With their signature blend of comedy and true crime fascination, the pair offer fresh commentary, updates, and reflections on that night at the Keswick Theatre—the last stop on one of their earliest tours. Together, they break down the wild energies of touring, dive into the infamous Gary Heidnik case, explore the story of Edward Gingerich (the first Amish man convicted of homicide), and showcase unscripted audience participation with local “hometown murders.” As always, the hosts lean into laughter, vulnerability, and their community’s unique collective spirit.

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Sections

1. Revisiting A Live Show: Comedy, Chaos, and Touring Adventures

Rewind Banter & Tour Tales (02:45–15:15)

• Karen and Georgia open with a recap of the Keswick Theatre gig, reminiscing about live show nerves, odd backstage snacks, and the bittersweet energy of ending a tour.
• Playful jokes about audience sacrifices (“We decided it would be fun to end the tour with an actual murder.” – Karen, 04:28) set the comedic tone.
• Backstage highlights include stories about wardrobe mishaps, vintage shopping, and travel bloopers—like Georgia’s passport fiasco (07:47).
• Notable quotes:
  • “We’re just like Alanis Morissette all barefoot and… we don’t give a chance.” – Karen (06:17)
  • “What are your favorite memories from this tour?” – Georgia (07:28)
• Food becomes a recurring joke: crab rangoon, Chinese food, and near-mythical quests for White Castle.
• Jokes riff on their snacks (“Vincent knows we don’t have that [crab rangoon], we’re not going on stage. That’s why we’re 10, 20 minutes late.” – Georgia, 11:30)

Audience Dynamics & Fan Interactions (15:16–23:00)

• Recollections of meeting fans, “Mother’s Day” awkwardness, and being mistaken for each other’s mothers due to their ages or looks.
• Karen and Georgia reflect affectionately on the intense love and energy live audiences gave—sometimes even “painfully loud” positive feedback!
• They joke about being “manipulative” in revving up audience excitement (“There’s no quiet moments anymore.” – Karen, 23:40)
• Both marvel at how different life is after the initial whirlwind of MFM’s success and touring.

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2. Story 1: Gary Heidnik—“The Real Basement Horror”

Karen’s True Crime Deep Dive (27:57–66:57)

Case Summary:

• Gary Heidnik’s crimes in Philadelphia inspired the Buffalo Bill character in “The Silence of the Lambs.”
• Born in 1943, Heidnik faced abuse, injury, and early signs of behavioral disturbance, dropping out to join the Army, then later struggling with mental health.
• After becoming a nurse, he preyed on vulnerable, mentally challenged women, founded a church (with mostly exploited parishioners), and, after a series of escalating violent acts, ultimately kidnapped and imprisoned multiple women in his basement.
• His basement became the site of unspeakable torture, manipulation, assault, and murder.

Key Discussion Points:

• The impact of Heidnik’s mental health and traumatic background (“…he fell out of a tree and hit his head. Of course, classically, but it also deformed his head… So then he was made fun of at school all the time…” – Karen, 29:29).
• Systemic failures: Police and public indifference due to racial bias, prejudices against sex workers and disabled victims.
• The horror and humanity of survivor Josefina Rivera, who ultimately outsmarted Heidnik and secured rescue for herself and other captives.
• Gruesome forensic details drive home the horror (human remains in the kitchen; attempts to electrocute chained victims—that “inspired” pop culture villains).

Memorable/Notable Moments:

• Karen’s candor about personal experiences (wetting the bed, mental health) weaves emotional authenticity into the storytelling.
• Karen notes, with dark humor: “If you were smart enough to get an accomplice, you’re not insane.” (64:56)
• Audience reactions serve as a secondary character: gasps, nervous laughter, camaraderie.

Timestamps for Key Segments:

• Trauma & background: 28:13–32:23
• Criminal escalation: 35:08–38:16
• Basement horror (the “pit,” survivors, escape): 43:36–63:00
• Trial & aftermath: 63:00–66:25
• Silence of the Lambs connection: 66:25

Update Segment (68:23–69:59)

• Karen outlines real-life conflicting accounts about Josefina’s escape, media confusion, and survivor perspectives.
• Notes on DA’s refusal to prosecute Josefina as an accomplice, contextualizing her coerced involvement and ultimate heroism.
  • “…she was a victim, just like the other victims, but then she was being played by this insane person.” – Karen (70:14)

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3. Story 2: Edward Gingerich—“The Amish Homicide”

Georgia’s Light(ish) Counterpoint to Darkness (73:36–89:03)

Case Summary:

• The 1993 murder of Katie Gingerich by her husband Edward, the first Amish person convicted of homicide in the US.
• Edward’s mental decline (hallucinations, psychosis exacerbated by religious influence and untreated schizophrenia), the cultural twist (Amish resistance to psychiatric care), and the community’s extreme shunning.
• After serving five years, he was released to live under supervision, but ultimately died by suicide, leaving a simple bucket-dust message: “forgive me, please.”

Key Discussion Points:

• Cultural specificity: How Amish traditions complicated intervention and mental health treatment.
• Georgia and Karen’s trademark humor sets the tone (“I would say that we’re going to get a lot of mean emails, but no one's listening to [this]. They can't say sh*t to us.” – Georgia, 80:01)
• Musings on small community justice and forgiveness (“He was an awfully good person, and he could have helped his community a lot. I don't know about that one.” – Georgia, 89:28)
• Discussion of the rarity of Amish homicide, but clarification that it’s not unique—other cases have surfaced.

Timestamps for Key Segments:

• Edward’s decline, the cultural dilemma: 74:00–81:27
• The murder & aftermath: 81:28–89:03
• Postscript and update: 91:22–91:53

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4. Hometown Murder Stories—Live Audience Participation

Local Listeners Share Their Tales (92:09–106:10)

Story 1: “I Survived” in Delaware (Alana)

• A neighbor, Debbie, is kidnapped from her home after her husband is shot by an intruder. She endures days of sexual assault, ultimately gains the perpetrator’s trust, and escapes by persuading him to untie her restraints. Her story features on “I Survived.”
• Quote: “It was the first time I ever watched it, and… they show this clip of these rose bushes in front of the house. And I was like, why does that look so fucking familiar?... And it was really fucking creepy.” – Alana (100:38)

Story 2: Christmas Tree Shop Murder (Andrew)

• A coworker from a retail job is later revealed to have committed a brutal, obsessive murder, tracked via workplace issues and fired employee grudges—ending in a multi-state manhunt and a sentence of life in prison.
• Smart, quick-witted banter (“How? How? Like, it was just like... as though he had a penis bowl that they cut.” – Andrew on suspect’s bowl cut, 103:13).

Hosts’ Responses:

• Karen and Georgia’s comic rapport continues, giving nervous audience members encouragement and lightness, even as the tales are harrowing.
• “You think you kind of know someone. Good old Christmas tree shop.” – Georgia, 105:56

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5. Reflections, In-Jokes & “If We Were Naming It Now”

Show Closes & Modern Reflections (106:43–108:57)

• Karen and Georgia joke about alternate episode titles:
  • “Sophisticated Miss” (after a vintage clothing label)
  • “Old Anvil” (Georgia’s penchant for buying ridiculously heavy antiques)
  • “Franklin” (Georgia’s famous confusion of “Hamilton” with “Franklin”)
    • “It shows you how not into fucking musical theater I am. Franklin.” – Georgia, 107:23
• The hosts reflect emotionally on what the podcast and their live fans have meant; the gratitude and kinship is palpable.
  • “It’s been so cool to be here with you in real life… It’s such a huge compliment.” – Karen (108:01)
  • “Every single fucking person we've met on this tour has been cool and someone we would be friends with and hang out with and so fucking nice and awesome, and we feel so lucky.” – Georgia (108:22)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Karen (04:28): “We decided it would be fun to end the tour with an actual murder.”
• Georgia (23:07): “What do you think 2017, end of the tour would have said to 2025?”
• Karen (43:35): “He’s got a plan. And his plan is that he's gonna get 10 women pregnant so he can start his own family.”
• Georgia (55:19): “He would try to shove a screwdriver in their ears because he thought if they were deaf, they couldn't plan anything against him.”
• Georgia (80:01): “I would say that we're going to get a lot of mean emails, but no one's listening to [this]. They can't say sh*t to us.”
• Karen (108:01): “It has been so cool to be here with you in real life and see that the bullshit we do in Georgia’s apartment actually matters to seemingly a shit ton of people.”

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Navigate the Show By Timestamps

| Segment | Start | End |
|--------------------|-------|--------| | Opening/Recap Intro| 02:45 | 23:00 | | Gary Heidnik Case | 27:57 | 66:57 | | Heidnik Updates | 68:23 | 69:59 | | Edward Gingerich | 73:36 | 89:03 | | Gingerich Update | 91:22 | 91:53 | | Hometown Murders | 92:09 | 106:10 | | Closing/Joking Alt Titles & Reflections |106:43|108:57|

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Tone & Takeaways

• Conversational & Affectionately Irreverent: Karen & Georgia maintain a warm, self-deprecating, and frequently hilarious tone even as they traverse traumatic material.
• Community-Oriented: They celebrate their fandom’s openheartedness, vulnerability, and shared catharsis through true crime storytelling.
• Meta & Insightful: The “rewind” format lets them reflect on how the show—and they themselves—have changed since 2017.
• Survivors’ Voices Matter: Both their main cases and audience “I Survived” stories center the resilience and quick thinking of women targeted by unspeakable violence.

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For Listeners New and Old

This episode is peak “My Favorite Murder”: equal parts harrowing, heartfelt, and hilarious. It’s a tribute to podcasting’s capacity for connection, growth, and dark yet necessary laughter.

Stay sexy. And don’t get murdered.

Transcript

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

My savior.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hello and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. Every Wednesday we recap our old episodes with all new commentary, updates and insights.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Today we're recapping episode 77, which we named live at the Keswick Theater from our Philadelphia live show.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This episode came out on July 13, 2017. So let's listen to the intro of episode 77. What up, Philly? Oh, oh. Whenever's good for you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I was pointing up there. There's nobody up there. Hey, guys. In the balcony ceiling. Wow. I was like, I think this is much bigger than it is. No, it's still pretty big, though, actually. Yes. Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was a good scream that. It hits me, you know, when you walk on and people are all screaming at you at one time. That's great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I sort of scream too, and it felt really good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You just heard what?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I started screaming and nobody heard me. And it was like, great. And I was like, doing a fucking weird screen. Yes. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do kind of a primal thing, right? But at the top of the show. Yeah, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm less nervous now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is the last show of this fucking tour, you guys.

[Karen Kilgariff]

For one second, I almost went. Is it really?

[Georgia Hardstark]

So we're going to sacrifice one of you tonight.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We decided it would be fun to end the tour with an actual murder. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Chosen at random, just like Shirley Jackson's lottery.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So don't worry, everyone has a stone. If you don't have a stone in your hand, you're the person we're killing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. We all throw the rocks at the person without a rock. That's such a good plan. It is. It's like you're kind of like a Shirley Jackson's lottery director in a way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can we get. Yeah, like with children. Do they ever have that in Elevation?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's what you'd like to do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They don't wait.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Aw. Did you. What kind of shoes did you bring?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, I brought these and wore them the first night and then said, fuck that, and wore, like, aerosol slip ons the next night. And then I was like, this is the last show. I should probably dress up. And so I put fancy shoes on and fake eyelashes on. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you, Georgia, for carrying the weight and your dress.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We checked this the other night.

[Audience Member / Guest]

What is it called?

[Karen Kilgariff]

The tag Missy. Miss Sophisticated Miss. Take a walk in that outfit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sophisticated Miss.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Isn't she a sophisticated miss?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Get on up here, Karen Kilgariff, and show them your outfit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Flats. Thank you. Thank you so much. I brought high heels. I think I wore them the first night on Friday night. Then I was just like, I don't know. I like the slippers feel.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't. You Know what I mean?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, this sucks. No, I totally get it. Should I take. I'm taking these off now. Yeah, whatever. You guys saw them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're just like Alanis Morissette all barefoot and fucking. We don't give a chance.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm hell.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I also. These shoes are my fanciest shoes, but they have the bottoms. Like, there's just a nail.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's just a nail.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like the thing fell off years, probably decades ago.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Probably.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I'm just like. Well, they're tap shoes now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Clickety click, click, click, click, click.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You should have done a little something, shouldn't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's the Next Door. There's gonna be a very large choreographed dance component on the Next Door, I think.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're kidding. We're not kidding.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're gon tear away outfits. And I would personally like to do some sort of a. We are a part of the rhythm nation breakdown.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, technically any outfit is a tear away outfit if you really put your heart into it. Yeah. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

End of the show.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. Tear all this shit away.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Tear this shit off.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I never want to wear this dress again, by the way. Smells like. Smells like three hotels and. Yeah, it's not working for me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What are your favorite memories from this tour?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you for asking. Georgia, could I get a spotlight over here, please? Just from this weekend or the whole thing?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, no, the whole thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You guys have been going on for a really long time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When we started.

[Karen Kilgariff]

February.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Started in February. February in Portland?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, Oakland.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oakland. Oakland, yes. Oakland.

[Karen Kilgariff]

At the Fox Theater in Oakland. Oh, we were so young and innocent.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Then I forgot my passport to go to Vancouver the next day.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. It started with some drama.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And it's been fucking rock and roll ever since.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It really has.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We have a short video of our highlights to show you. It's a montage, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Directed by Wes Anderson. Everything's all centered up. I think I. Stephen, play it. Stephen. He's not here. But I would say this. My favorite memory probably would be. And you're gonna have to tell me where it happened.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. Yeah, Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'll remember Indianapolis, I think.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Maybe Milwaukee. The girl. There was a girl who in the audience threw up and then crawled up the aisle out of the theater.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're fucking giving them an idea. That's how Karen will love me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean. Yeah, you gotta earn it if you want it. I was like, that is a girl who's doing an impression of me when I was 24. Fucking miss her last night.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We had a girl who ended up doing the Hometown Murder, but she tweeted at us and was like, I dated a murderer. And we were like, oh, my gosh. And she's like, in fact, I wanna tell it so bad, I'm gonna wait to get blackout drunk till after the show.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're like, well, maybe we shouldn't. Okay, she changes her mind. But then Karen fucking Voodoo just random picked a girl in the audience, and it was her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It turned out to be her. Do you understand what that felt like to me?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The power that I now know I wield. It was super weird because I. I have to say, I do. I like to do that kind of when you do the picking, where you're just like, we'll see, we'll see, we'll see. But then there was just something where I was like, it's got to be this girl over here. But we already had somebody who had written something out that was amazing. So she came up and did it. And then we were like, we have time for one more. And then I was like, it's gotta be you. And Georgia had already written that girl's name down off of Twitter, written it on a piece of paper, in case we forgot. So the girl walks up and I said, what's your name? And she goes, amanda. And then Georgia just holds the paper up with her name on it like some fucking fashion magic trick.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is this you? And she's like, what? She's like, what the fuck?

[Karen Kilgariff]

We were all creeped out. It was the best night. Let's do it again tonight, you guys. Oh, we will. Oh, we will.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't you hate it when you do something insane and wonderful like that? Like when you've turned to the right page? Like, the exact right page, or like something crazy happens and coincidental, and your friend is like, that's cool. And you're like, no, you don't understand. I begged her from the audience. No, no, it's cool.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So I gave you your. What? I did the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You really did.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I fucking knew, man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's exciting. You did it last night, you did it tonight.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yep. I thought you were gonna say your favorite thing was when the girl fucking ran on stage.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't like that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, well, we were.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is our domain.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's not repeat that moment. It was kind of triggering. It's triggering.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We've talked so much shit about her. I don't think anyone would want to. They're just like, ooh, no, we lost her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What? Other things? I guess we went to Cracker barrel mines are always food.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

What did we eat backstage? We just had some great Chinese food. Crab Rangoon. It's always my favorite part. What kind of snacks do they have backstage?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Crab Rangoon. We demand it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's on our writer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's on our writer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Vince knows we don't have that. We're not going on stage. That's why we're 10 minutes late. 20 minutes late.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They had to go to Shrewsbury to get Crab Rangoon. Local jokes don't get local work. Okay, fine.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I guess this is our last show. This is why.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep. We went antiquing. Is it not called Shrewsbury? Am I saying it wrong?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, that was right. I'm saying, yeah, that was right. That's what you said earlier.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I'm saying the same thing twice. Everyone here is like, we don't know what you're talking about.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We did go antiquing. Lost our minds.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Georgia, this is my favorite. Georgia's like, I have to get these books. I want to get that mirror. And it's like, all stuff you do not want to travel with. She's just like, what about this old anvil? Let's buy that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And Vince was like, I don't know. And I'm like, I'll make it fit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I will get it in there. Get it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I did. I packed it today. I have a fucking shopping problem. Like, for real. But it was so cheap. Like, four bucks for this. Like, okay, I have a problem.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You had to get it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But it's a fun problem.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You had no choice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then I do that. Like, this is so cute, but I don't need it. Who could I get this for? Oh, I have a friend who has. Okay, I don't get it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Then you're antique shopping for a friend who doesn't probably want it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because it was the thing that made me laugh when she was buying it. It was a really beautiful antique baby dress. But also that's haunted. So why would you. Why would you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's a very good point.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Lauren's gonna be like, thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My daughter is haunted nighttime.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thanks for the possession.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Georgia, she was never the same again after that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She just keep.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Her head just keeps spinning around.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Her voice got really deep.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So thanks for the doll child's dress. Oh, my God, it's so cute. Yeah. What else?

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, so many memories, so many great times.

[Georgia Hardstark]

White Castle. We did. No, no more food. Not White Castle.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, fuck.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We didn't find a White Castle.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We never got to White Castle.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Shit. I meant Cracker Barrel.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Which is amazing. Oh, my goodness. Just as good as you all said it would be.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then yesterday, Vince was like, I don't. I guess I don't. I don't want to go to the barbecue place that Georgia wants to go to. How about we go to Arby's? That was a mistake.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's standing right over there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I love it, baby.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my. Like, he's walking away. What's going.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no. He's driving the rental car away. Now we have to take a train home. Fuck yeah. I liked Arby's only because there was a picture. And Vince actually, I think, put it on Instagram. Arby's now has a thing called the Meat Mountain. Do you guys know about this?

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is real people wooing, like, they've had it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know. I hope you have. The Meat Mountain is an every Arby sandwich in just two pieces of bread. So it's just like, turkey, roast beef, brisket, a fried chicken patty, this. This ham, whatever.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it's Pork belly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This tall.

[IBM Ad Voice]

Was it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So there was a little, like, a cardboard poster standing on the counter. And as I was standing there looking to see what I was gonna get, I looked down, I was like, oh, my God. And there was a guy doing the exact same thing. And he goes, oh, my God, that scared me. Which is my favorite thing. Just a stranger. And I just start laughing. Our asses off at Arby's. Insane. Like, they're trying to kill us. They're trying to kill us.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Heart Attack Mountain.

[Karen Kilgariff]

For real.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Hey.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Happy Mother's Day to all happy mommies out there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's nice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Got a couple mommies. Oh, man. A pregnant chick let us touch her belly. That sounds creepy. What I'm trying to say is, we were after the show, we were taking some photos with people, and, like, you know, you don't. I didn't say anything, but I was like, there's her. I'm gonna let her mention that she's pregnant, because I don't say that. She goes, well, can I pose with you guys touching my belly? And, like, all I ever want is to touch pregnant. Like, when I see someone pregnant, I can't be, like, sometimes, like, can I touch your belly? I don't know why. It's, like, so sweet to me. And, like, finally someone asked me to do it. Instead of me going, can I have this word?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's one of the benefits of fame. That and really great coke. And when you combine them, oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Next Level high. Have you guys ever tried getting high when you're pregnant? It is next level.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All the musc in the audience right now are like, I don't like this show. Or I don't like what they're saying, and I don't like what they stand for.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, they agree.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You think they're high as balls.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My mom told me she had a glass of whiskey and a Tylenol every night when she was pregnant with my. There I am now, Janet.

[Audience Member / Guest]

I know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's like, I was stressed. I had two other children. The fuck? And then she dropped my brother.

[IBM Ad Voice]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's as if that's such a great combination. Like, in the 70s, everyone did Tylenol. I like the sound of that so much. My mom used to always be like, people make such a big deal about pregnant women smoking. I smoked with both of you. And I was like, yeah, I had really bad asthma and Laura's stupid. So, like, how about, it's not a good idea.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We love our moms. They did a great job.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wonderful families that we're both from.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wonderful family?

[Georgia Hardstark]

What? Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do we have to stand right next to each other sometimes? We're in theaters so big that we literally cannot hear each other speaking on stage. It's super. It's great for comedy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you think in Franklin, what's it called? Hamilton. Oops. I flunked everything in high school.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You just called it Franklin.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was not for laugh, but I bet they actually. In Hamilton, they do say, what? Did I just pull out a huge plunke of my own hair?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God, I'm so stressed out. How did that happen?

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's shedding.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Jesus Christ. I need to take vitamins. No more Arby's for me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She was on stage when the first symptom appeared. What if that happened? Everyone remembers. It was ominous.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God. Oh, well.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yep. Becca, I'll bring you soup for whatever happens.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you. Thank you so much.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, we got wished Happy Mother's Day too many times today in, like, a. You are mothering age.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So congratulations. And we're both like, fuck.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No. This was me looking at my phone all day long, people saying that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, like, when they tweet things and stuff, like, happy Mother's Day to my mom.

[Karen Kilgariff]

To my mom. I'm not your fucking mom.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, about us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wait, what? What are we talking about?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I meant, like, strangers, like, at the hotel.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I was just like, we're not.

[Chelsea Handler]

Thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I just said, thank you. But you too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep. I'm like, can't you see from my really thick black eyeliner that I'm no one's mother?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Maybe they thought Vince was our kid.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hair just falling.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hair falling out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I only called you mother because your hair is falling out and clumps. Good point, good point.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I posted a photo of my mom today. My friend texted me and was like, can I just fucking say I hate people who are, like, post photos of their mom and, like, love you so much. Thank you for everything you've done to me. And she's like, they're not. Their moms are never gonna see it. They're doing it for everyone else.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I literally just said, I posted mine so everyone could see how hot my mom was when she was young. And I just wrote, if it's not one thing, it's your mother, which my sister had done. And I was just like, how fucking hot my mom is. And so am I. And then so am I. Because she was hot.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's why I did it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But then later, you posted a picture of Ted Bundy and his mother, which I liked a lot.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Happy Mother's Day. I was looking for an Ed Gein mom. There's no. They don't pose with each other. There was no Ed Gein.

[Chelsea Handler]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They weren't allowed to touch Ed and his mom. There's a lot of rules in that household.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. About mother touching the skin bodies. There's a photo of.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What's that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's a skin bodies photo of that. But there's no mother and son. Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Anyhow, anyways, fire exits are on either side of the theater and of course, straight back where you entered. Drink in this part. It's the last time we're gonna do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It for a while. I've had a lot of coffee. I just realized. And I'm talking like, it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is so.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know, but Great. It's going to be super fun. Let's not be sad yet. Since they paid money to come to a show. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You came to see us.

[Cal Penn]

Happy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Show face.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Show face. Yeah, we're going to shine. Should we sit down?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, let's have a sit down. Ooh, look at these haunted seats here.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Haunted. Yeah. Yeah. Like a lady. Here's your sweat towel.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, thank you. Great. I'm, like, dabbing sweat and then just, like, pulling hair.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's hot in here. Karen, are you okay?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nope. I just. I went on vacation to Chernobyl, so.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you know I would totally go. I, like, want to go there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, you can't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, you can. For, like, a limited amount of time. They, like, time it. I'm not fucking kidding.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They time it like, they give you a tour, but it's like, we're gonna dip in for seven minutes, then we're gonna run away.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And they're like, here's where you're. Here's where it's at right now. Here's how much. Here's how many. Like, you can go get a tour. But they're like, you're literally taking five years off your life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I'm like, who wants to live to be 85? Fuck it. I don't care. I'd rather see Chernobyl.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cut it right down, honestly. Tell everyone in the rest home you went to Chernobyl. I do hear there's. There's interesting animals there, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I have. Yes. The soil's all fucked up, so these things are, like, growing out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, like a rabbit with a face on the back of its head. I'm down for that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I have Crab Rangoon in my teeth.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Crab Rangoon.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's the word of the night. Should I go first? Oh, this is my favorite murder. That's okay. Hi, everybody.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you for coming. To our live podcast. Thank you for being here.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you for. We fucking love doing this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it's so fun.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You went first. No, I went first last time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Last night. Shall I go first?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I believe so. You guys wouldn't know. And we're back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're back.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, on the heels of the end of our tour, now we're doing a live show recap.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What do you think 2017, end of the tour would have said to 2025.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Stop doing this immediately.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Please don't do it. It's not worth it. No, it's worth it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's too hard.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're so much younger than God. I was fucking 37, then touring.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And now I'm old.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, lots of time has passed. Yeah, a lot of time has passed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's really funny. But I was laughing because the idea where at the beginning of that, there's, like, of course cheering and everything, but then it, like, goes quiet a little bit, and then I tell everybody to drink it in. And that idea where it's like, we've basically manipulated our audience to be like, well, are you gonna be as loud as the last city we were in? I don't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like, there's no quiet moments anymore.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My favorite other ones were like, my ears actually hurt.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. There's A lot of those on this tour.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

People really brought the screaming and applauding.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was very nice. A lot of talk about outfits, a lot of outfit issues, a lot of, like, clothing stuff.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I think so. This last tour, I wore vintage every show except for one, which meant I was uncomfortable in some way for every show. Like, everything just fit a little wrong.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When it's vintage.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But it's worth it, I guess.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, if you're trying to do your thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's your adjustment.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. You had some gowns this tour?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, yeah. I mean, like, losing weight and being able to fit into things and feel good about fitting into things makes a huge difference.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And like many other things I was doing back then, it was just like everything was like trying to cope with this gigantic business that got dropped on our heads.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And so it was like, now you're on tour, now you have to have outfits right. For tour. Now you're doing a show, but it's not a stand up show like you're used to. It's like a bigger deal and there's more happening.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's just like pictures taken, so you better look fucking good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right? I mean, that part of it, we're just like, that wasn't my world at all. And suddenly it's like, hey, are you guys good with us posting these pictures? And it's like, no. Like, yeah. All of that was a stressor for sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. All right, let's listen to Karen's story about Gary Heidnik.

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[Cal Penn]

Hey, audiobook lovers. This week on the podcast I'm sitting down with musician, producer and Walking encyclopedia Questlove. We're talking about Mark Ronson's memoir, Night how to be a DJ in 90s New York City. All right, like we talked about before, Mark Ronson found sanctuary in the DJ booth. What's a tool or piece of equipment in the studio or on stage that gives you the most control?

[Audience Member / Guest]

So I have two microphones on stage. We have the microphone that you hear as the audience. Then we have a second microphone in.

[Ed Helms]

Which we communicate with each other. I feel like that second microphone kind.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Of saved all of our friendships. No band likes each other after 20 years or 25 years.

[Ed Helms]

The Beatles broke up in seven and.

[Audience Member / Guest]

A half years and we're going on 35.

[Cal Penn]

Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Chelsea Handler]

I have some very exciting news about an ethical phone carrier. I just switched to. This is Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea, Forget about all these other phone companies. Forget about Verizon, forget about AT&T, forget about T Mobile. There's this new carrier called Noble Mobile and they actually pay you to stay off your phone. You can earn real money, up to 20 bucks back every month just for putting your phone away. If you're like me and you're tired of feeling controlled by your phone, social media, or just disgusted by those screen time alerts, this is the answer. Go to noblemobile.com Chelsea and try it for $10. That's noblemobile.com Chelsea.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right, well, I picked a man who I've been reading about for several days. There's a lot of things to read about him and none of them are good. And his name is Gary Heidnik. Do you know Gary Heidnik?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, they love him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We always say at this barn, like, then this is where the ushers are. Like, holy fuck, what's going.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What is happening in there?

[Georgia Hardstark]

They were cheering for a serial killer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Jesus, we gotta get that acapella group back. This shit is weird. All right, let me tell you a little something about Gary. He was born in November of 1943. His parents divorced two years later. And then he and his brother went to live with their father and their new stepmother. Of course, the F is a bum out alcoholic, abusive. I don't think he physically abused them, but he did the classic thing. Gary was a bedwetter. And so to teach Gary to stop wetting the bed, he took his sheets and put them out the window so the whole neighborhood could see. Which also Michael Lando's father did to him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know. I thought I heard that recently.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, yeah. Little house in the Perry, anyone? No? Okay. I'm the oldest person in the room. Fine, fine. Oh, I told Georgia the other day. We were telling childhood stories. I also wet the bed when I was a child.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah, we did. We both did.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I was lazy. It wasn't that. It wasn't that, but I did it. Up until my mother, who was a psychiatric nurse, tricked me by one day handing me as I went to bed. She goes, oh, come here. The doctor gave me something to give you. And she poured cranberry juice, like, that much cranberry juice into a little glass. And then she goes, goes, drink this. It'll stop you from wetting the bed. And it fucking did. Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Trick your fucking kids all up here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She was a mind game mom for sure. She would also very, very early on, like, when I was four, she'd go, I can always tell when you're lying. And then I believed her. So I stopped lying to her because I was like, well, she's gonna know because she can tell when I'm lying.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mom.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She was good. Well done, Pat.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, Pat.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, but also, don't forget the smoking, okay? No one's perfect. Okay, so this is a bit of information about Gary Heidnik that I really enjoy in the way that makes me a terrible person. When he was a child, he fell out of a tree and hit his head. Of course, classically, but it also deformed his head, this injury. So then he was made fun of at school all the time because he had a misshapen head. It seems sad now, but then when I tell you, shit he did, you're not gonna be sad anymore.

[Georgia Hardstark]

For Gary, I always try to stop my sympathy because I'm like, but then he's gonna kill a ton of people, and I'm gonna be bummed. I feel bad for him. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But also, it's that thing of, like. I mean, what it was. It was the 50s. How come you fall out of a tree, then your head just stays that way? Like, no doctors or anybody to help out. Just be like, okay, there you go, Gare. Stay low to the ground from now on. Okay? So he ended up dropping out of school and joining the army, where he trained as a medic. And he actually did very well in the army until he was transferred to West Germany, and he didn't like that assignment. So there he began to develop odd behavior, and he was eventually diagnosed as having a schizoid personality disorder. And he was honorably Discharged with full disability pension. So this is like a thing that goes through his life where no one's actually sure if he was working the system or if he actually had schizophrenia of some kind or some kind of mental illness.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Point to that head fucking shape and you, you know your answer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's true. That could have been part of it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And he's like, they're like, we don't know if you're crazy. And he's like, but did you see it sticks out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm sorry, Let me take my hat off. There you go. Ah, yes. Okay. So he comes back to Philly and he decides to be a nurse.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, no.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Uh huh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Does he do bad things, Karen?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, yeah, but not in the hospital. Okay. It seems like in the beginning he actually really wanted to be a nurse and help people. He interned at Philadelphia General Hospital for two years. That was in 1965. Give it up for Philadelphia General Hospital. What a great place. In 1967, he saved up enough money from that disability pension payout to buy his own house. And he rented out the bottom two floors. So he was, you know, a bit of a businessman. He also started hanging out at the Elwyn Institute. Now this is a theme that goes through Gary Heidnik's life, and it's very disturbing because he goes into the medical profession. He is a nurse. He actually later tried to study to be a psychiatric nurse, but he behaved so oddly and had such a bad attitude. He got kicked out of the program. But he started to spend a lot of time at places that housed the mentally challenged. So he was a predator from day one. Okay, so. But he was starting to. He was starting to. I guess his behavior was affecting his work, whether it was a put on or not. So he ended up getting. Also getting fired from the university hospital where he had gotten a job. In 1970, his mother Ellen committed suicide. And from there his behavior got even stranger and worse. In 1971, he took a trip to California where he decided he needed to start his own church. Oh, you know, the natural path nurse minister. Yeah, very clear. So when he came back to Philly, he started the United Church of the Ministries of God. Nice long name. He was. He was the ordained minister. He had about 50 parishioners and most of them were patients that he had met at the Elwyn Institute.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fill that room however you can.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What I mean, was that bad?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It wasn't great, but.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I just meant.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I didn't mean that in a. I believe you. I know what your intentions are.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. You Know what I mean? And now I feel really self conscious about having bare feet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's the whole.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sorry, I feel weird.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, look at that. Barefooted.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm going to saying all the wrong words. All right. Okay. Yeah. Quick reminder. We didn't do any of these things. Gary did them. Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In 1975, he opened a Merrill lynch account in the church's name, and he started investing in stocks.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, no. Now I feel really weird. Socks.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Stocks?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Oh, socks. I thought you said.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He was gonna make that good sock money. Baby. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I was like, oh, he's crazy. And how fitting. Cause no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He'S the guy that invented gold toe socks. Oh, my God. Tube socks. That's Gary. All right. The ones with a little ball in the back? No. He took $1,500 and he eventually parlayed it into a half a million dollars with good investment and, I don't know, moxie. Okay. So he ends up buying himself a used Rolls Royce. He bought a Cadillac, he got a customized van. Cause he's a creepy old perv. And then he bought himself a new house. So during that same time, he also was in and out of mental hospital. And he was. Because he would get in trouble with the police. He would pull guns on people. He's super aggressive. A lot of weapons charges. And when they would interact with him, they'd just be like, 5150. You're out of your mind. Okay, so in 1978, he begins. This is gonna get problematic, everybody. In 1978, he begins dating a mentally challenged woman named Angeline. And they have a daughter together. So one day he decides that they should go. Oh, sorry, her name is Angelique. And they decide they need to go visit Angelique's sister Alberta, who is also mentally challenged. And she lives in a home. So they go, they visit her, they sign her out on a day pass, and she never comes back. And so the staff goes to investigate, and eventually they find Alberta chained up in Gary's basement.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Whoa.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So she'd been raped and she had contracted gonorrhea from that. So he's charged and he's sentenced to three to seven years in prison.

[Audience Member / Guest]

That's it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Aw.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's 1978. This was back when rape was not that big of a deal. So in 1983, he's released from prison after serving four years in formality.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Months.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And he immediately signs up for a mail order bride service. Yeah, he's a romantic. So he starts corresponding with a 22 year old Filipino woman named Betty Disto. And he tells her, of course, I'm a minister and I have my own church here in Philadelphia. And eventually, in. In through these letters, he proposes to her, and he convinces. Convinces her to fly to Philadelphia and marry him. And she does. And everything's great for a week.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. Oh. Not long enough to sustain a relationship.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No. I feel like you need to build in more time. More than seven days.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But so it's. What happens is Betty leaves the house one day, and when she comes back, she finds Gary in bed with three women. And she freaks out and is like, what the fuck is going on? And then he's like, get in here, you old nut. Get in here, Betty, you old stick in the mud. And she's horrified, of course, and baffled. And so then that's when the mask comes off and he starts to beat her. He becomes incredibly violent at all turns, and he basically just starts constantly bringing home sex workers and mentally challenged women to have sex with. And she's just like, I'm in the fucking nightmare world and a different country, and she doesn't know anybody but him and his friends. So she eventually turns to the Filipino community in Philadelphia and is just like, can someone please help me? Cause I'm, like, basically abandoned here with this lunatic. And so the people that she meets there say, you have to leave, and you just have to leave and don't come back. And they kind of set up a plan for her. And so she one day tells Gary. Well, she tries to confront him to say that she's had enough. This is not the life that he had promised her. And he beats the shit out of her and rapes her. So four days after that, she says, I'm gonna go out shopping super quick. I'll be right back. And she fucking bails and doesn't come back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Good for her.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then she went into some Philadelphia Filipino American underground, and they fucking took care of her. And he never saw her again.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Pretty cool.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Good job.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. So remember that if you're ever in trouble. Okay. Two weeks later, the cops come and pick up Gary for spousal rape, for domestic abuse, for indecent assault, and for involuntary devices, sexual intercourse. Unfortunately, the parole period for the last. For the last sexual offenses that he had been in jail for had ended the day before. Yes. So Betty doesn't show up in court to testify against him, and so all the charges are dropped. And.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which is so insane that you're like, you're victim, and it's not going to happen unless you come and fucking reopen all the wounds you're working to get past.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, can't they just use hearsay? No, I was always saying that. I was like, it doesn't work.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's not going to work. No. Yeah, but it makes it so hard. Okay, so this was basically a turning point in Gary Heidnik's life where he. Her leaving him and the lack of control that he had over her for doing that kind of set him off in a major way. So this is 1986, it's Thanksgiving, and he goes out to find a sex worker. And that same night, Josefina Rivera had gone out to try to make some money so she could get. So she could buy her family Thanksgiving dinner. And so she's out, it's raining, it's a cold night, and a Cadillac pulls out up and makes her an offer. She gets in and it's Gary. And he drives her to 3520 North Marshall Street. And when they pull into the driveway, she sees the Rolls Royces and she sees fancy cars and she's like, this is probably, I'm gonna get everything done and get out. So she feels hopeful, you know, she's like, okay, this is gonna be good and I'm gonna get my money and be able to get out of here. So when they go up to his front door, he pulls out this really weird looking key. And what it is is half a key. And she asks him what the deal is, and he said, the other half of the key is already in the lock. So I am the only person that can open this door because he's the only person that has the other half of the key.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're standing there and you're just like, okay, well, okay, we'll see what happens. So, yeah, so they go into his house, they go upstairs, they have sex. And when she is getting dressed again and she thinks she's about to leave, he comes up from behind, starts choking her, almost chokes her out. She's begging him to stop, and he says, fine, get down on her knees, put your hands behind your back. So he handcuffs her wrists behind her back. And then he walks her down into his basement. Yeah, I wish we had a picture. Sometimes we have visuals.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm dying to see what he looks like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Give me your arm so I can pinch it. There's a picture of. There's a picture of this basement. And it's not good. It's not finished. It doesn't have any shelving, it's not swept. It's the creepiest fucking looking basement in the world. There's a dirty mattress on the ground.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And. And there's some plywood. The concrete on one side of the basement has been pulled up and there's plywood on the ground. Right. So he. And there's a bunch of exposed pipes and stuff. He takes her and chains her to these exposed pipes. He sits her on the mattress so she's chained to these pipes behind her. Then he puts his head in her lap and goes to sleep. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can you imagine? This is not how I expected this to go when it's almost creepier.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Yeah. Because he's just chilling out. So she then, of course, eventually also kind of nods off. When she wakes up, he's gone. She's still chained to the wall. And she looks around and she sees that the plywood has been moved and there is a small pit in the center of the room. So Gary comes back with some crackers and water and he explains he's got a plan. And his plan is that he's gonna get 10 women pregnant so he can start his own family.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God. Uh huh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He leaves again. Josephina realizes she's fucked. This is crazy. This is bad. And she has to get out of there. So she starts working on her handcuffs. And she somehow is able to loosen some kind of a tie that she has. I'm not exactly sure how, but she basically is able to reach up and push open the basement window and lift herself up and she starts screaming out of it. And she screams and screams and screams and nobody hears her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I knew it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Except Gary. So Gary comes down and he unchains her from the wall. And he says, you're not ever gonna get out of here, so stop trying. And then he puts her in the pit. And it's barely big enough to hold a person. Like she's all super smashed up in there. And he puts the plywood on top of her and then he puts like bags of soil on top of the plywood. So she's totally weighted down and she's totally stuck in there. And then as he leaves the basement, he turns it on like the hard rock station and turns the radio all the way up. So even if she screams, no one's gonna be able to hear her over the music. Yes. All right, so she's down in there and then when she wakes up, she wakes up to the sound of a woman speaking and the sound of chains. And what's happened is Gary. Gary lets her out and she stands up and she's all cramped up from. From being down that fucking pit. And she sees that Gary has a half naked, mentally challenged woman with him. And he. He's basically brought another woman down into this basement. And he introduces them because he is nothing if not a mannered person. Oh, my God. Her name's Sandy. And he leaves. And so Sandy tells Josephina her name is Sandra Lindsay, and that she met Gary at the Elwyn Institute. So when he was going there, he was basically going there and meeting patients and making them believe that he was their friend and grooming them to basically eventually be molested by him and convince them that he was their boyfriend so he could have complete control over them. So they are chained to the wall together. And the next morning, they're eating breakfast, which is crackers, and they hear a knock at the front door of the house.

[Georgia Hardstark]

House.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it turns out that Sandy's sister and her cousins are looking for her because they. When she didn't come home the night before, they knew it was bad. And so they're out on the street. They had found a friend of Sandy's named Tony that they knew she hung out with a lot. And they went to Tony and they were like, who else do you know that Sandy knows? And they were like, we know this guy named Gary.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And she's the first girl, sir.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sandy was the second girl. Josephina's the first girl. Got it. And Josephina is. Well, you'll see, she's in it the whole time, and it's pretty amazing. So Sandy. So Tony gives Sandy's cousins and sister Gary's address, and they come and knock on the door, but Gary just doesn't answer it. And then when they leave, he comes downstairs and he has Sandy write two letters to her mother saying, I'm fine. I ran away. Don't worry about me. I'll get a hold of you later. So then he tells the girls that his plan is he's gonna drive into New York and send the letters from New York. So they see that the post mark is from New York, and they believe that she ran away. Well, of course, when Sandy's mother gets these letters, she's like, no, she's never written a letter like this in her life. This is not. There's something even more wrong here. But they take it to the police, and the police will not listen. They're like, this is a runaway. She's an adult. It's fine. Don't you know this is just somebody that didn't want to live with you anymore. She's a runaway, they can't get the police to help. These are all also, I guess I should say all these people are black except for Gary Heidnik. So I think that also probably had a big, a big part of it was this out handed dismissal of like, oh, well, don't worry about them, you know, they're doing what they want. A lot of people accused of being prostitutes when they're not, or sex workers when they're not. Really, really shitty treatment. Okay, so.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was that whole page. I hand wrote this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She does that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thanks. Yeah, that's all I wanted a little bit of credit for my handwriting. Okay. So now it's three days before Christmas and Gary picks up a girl named Lisa Thomas as she's walking to her friend's house. She's 19 years old. She is not a sex worker, she's not mentally challenged. But she is impressed by his car and his generosity. He offers to take her to dinner. He's very sweet to her. Once she's in the car, she finds that he's very charming and he tries to get her to go to Atlantic City with him. And she said, I can't. I don't even have good clothes on. He pulls out of $50 bill and says, you can go buy some new clothes right now. And so she gets caught up in, you know, this guy, you know, treating her so well. And at one point he says, come back to my house, we'll drink some wine and watch movies. So they do that. And while, while they're. She drinks a bunch of wine and falls asleep on his couch. When she wakes up, he's raping her. When he finishes, she gets up and is putting her clothes on. And he does the thing where he strangles her from behind and gets her on her knees and then handcuffs her. So then he brings her the basement and he takes the plywood and Lisa, he. He pulls the plywood off the pit. And Lisa sees that Josephina and Sandy are down in the pit, which I can't. When I was reading that part. I'm just like, can you fucking imagine that? Like there's people. This basement's creepy enough. And then it's like, oh, yeah, you guys move. There's somebody else already done this. Yeah, there's. There's a bunch of people down here and they haven't been able to get out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh no. All right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ten days later, he comes home with Deborah Dudley. Now, Deborah Dudley, I believe is mentally challenged, but she fights him the entire time she's there. So she she starts, yeah, so here's the thing though, he has it. So. And he eventually starts manipulating all of them. So if Deborah Dudley is fighting with, he beats her and then he'll beat the other girls for her having fought him. So then they start trying to fight her to get her to stop fighting him because everybody's getting beaten. He takes a big like two by four and beats the shit out of all of them. And they have to watch it. Then he starts, he makes them have sex with each other and he just stands there and watches. So it's just this degradation and this beating and mind fuck and mind fucking. So. So that they are all basically trying to get him to treat them better. And so it's that thing of he'll pick one to not beat and he'll be like, I'll leave you with the stick. I'm leaving. You're in charge. If anyone misbehaves, you beat them. Then when he would come back, if nobody had been beaten, they'd all get beaten because somebody should have been beaten while he was. It's all that kind of shit. Fucked up happening stuff down. Some fucked up happening stuff is what it's called in the textbooks. All right, so on two weeks later after that, he brings 18 year old sex worker Jacqueline Haskins into the basement. And then on January 18th, Sandra gets caught. The second girl, she gets caught trying to move the plywood off the pit because they're down. He puts them in the pit altogether. So he's dug it out a little bit. It's getting bigger and bigger. He comes down and digs it, makes them watch him dig it while they, you know, eat crackers or whatever. Sometimes he'll bring them really nice food, like. Like he one day brings them just a huge Chinese food meal and champagne. So it's just like, or it's just or nothing, you know, Totally mind fucking them. So Sandra gets caught trying to move the plywood off and so Gary hangs her by the wrist and like one handcuff from the ceiling pipe. And he leaves her there for a couple days. So the other girls are like, she's getting sick, there's something wrong with her, you have to take her down. And he's like, no, she's faking. I'm not gonna fall for it. He's of course getting increasingly paranoid. He believes they're all plotting against him at all times. He's constantly ready for them to try to attack him. And he did. This is super, super fucked up. He would do this thing where he would, when he thought that there was a chance that they were plotting against him. He would chain them up, and then he would try to shove a screwdriver in their ears because he thought if they were deaf, that they couldn't plan anything against them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Should we take a quick break? I can sing some songs from Oliver if you want me. I was in it when I was 10.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you know the words to the Franklin musical? Bet you don't. I do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Sing a little Franklin for us. Okay. Gary believes that Sandra is pregnant, and that's why he is. I don't know. She gets sickly, she's lethargic, she has a fever. She starts throwing up. He says the only reason she's throwing up is cause she's pregnant. Eventually, she loses consciousness. When he comes back, the girls are like, you have to let her down. And he lets her down, and she just drops to the ground, and he kicks her into the pit. And so when she gets. When he kicks her into the pit, all the other girls realize now she's dead.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is so horrifying.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's really bad, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Now, that's the point, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, no, no. Nobody's surprised. Except for the one person who was like, my friend can't come. Do you want to come? I've never heard of the podcast. I. Oh, also, my, like, little cousin is here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And the rest of my family is, like, really nice, normal people. And she's never heard the podcast. And she's gonna be like, mom, Georgia's cousin. I think there's something wrong with Georgia.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you think she's gonna tell on you? She can rat you out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. My friend Molly's here, and she brought her mom.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Having. No. She had no idea what was going on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Poor baby.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Baby.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sorry. Oh, you know what? I once did call Jillian's mom when she was in high school, and I was like, she's got some slutty pictures up on Facebook. You should say something to her. So to get back at me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's gonna fucking. Sorry, Jillian. That was me. But you're too young for cleavage.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I like that. You knocked her out for that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah, I did.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Save it for college.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Turn the page.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sorry. No, no, I'm interrupting.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Please don't be. I think we needed it. So basically, he takes the body upstairs, and. I mean, can we just.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can it get worse? Yes, it can. The girls are all down in the pit together.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then they hear a power Saw.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, she didn't do it, girl.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So in the next couple days, they start to smell. A terrible smell. Of course, not just them down in the basement, but the whole fucking neighborhood. And so the neighbors end up calling the police. And when a patrolman goes by the house, nothing. Uh huh. He says, oh, I just burned a roast. And the patrolman's like, well, high five, buddy. I'll talk to you later. And he leaves. Yep. So the paranoia is getting worse. Deborah Dudley is continuing to defy him. So now he goes into a whole new level where he's starting to. Because they're all wearing chains and the chains are connected to each other. So he strips an extension cord, he strips off the insulation and starts electrocuting the chains. Yeah, it gets really bad. And when the next time Deborah Dudley defies him, he takes her upstairs and when she comes back down, she's scared out of her mind. And the girls finally get her to say, what is going on? And he took her up into the kitchen and then he took a lid off the pot and she looked inside and Sandra's head was.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, we're doing this. Stay with me. Do not fucking leave me. At this point, we all agreed that we were doing this. God damn it. All right, so eventually, basically, Deborah Dudley loses her shit and is like, what the fuck, you know, whatever. And so he gets so mad at her because she's fighting him so hard. He puts her in the pit and he puts water in it and then he electrocutes her and he ends up killing her in that pit. Okay, so no, now Josephina, who this whole time has been trying to make a plan, she keeps. The whole time, she's like, okay, I'm going to stay on this guy's good side. So when it would be the thing of, like, you get the stick and you have to beat the girls, she would play along with him just enough so that he would believe her because she was like, I have to win his trust. That's the only way I'm going to get out of here. And that anyone's going to get out of here because this guy's fucking out of his mind. So she's trying to play him the entire time that way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So once he kills the second girl, Deborah, she's like, okay, like, I have to, you know, I have to really do something. So she. She's really trying to, like, pretend that, you know, like, play the wife part, really kiss his ass, really, like, really act like she hates the girls and wants to do anything against them for Him. So finally, she. Once Debbie dies, he makes Josephina sign a paper that says, I killed Debbie. I'm responsible for her death. It makes her sign it. And then once she signs that, he believes that he has her completely under control. Because if she goes to the police, she's the one that's gonna get arrested for that crime.

[IBM Ad Voice]

Come.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So she's like, sounds good to me. What a great plan, Gary. Super smart. I bet that's what's gonna happen. So she signs that paper, and then on March 24, she convinces him to let her leave and visit her family. And in return for doing that, she promises that she'll bring him back a new girl.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Whoa.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And so he's like, that sounds great. Plus, I have the paper you signed, so this is a lock. Everything's awesome. He drops her off at her apartment and says, I'll wait for you at the gas station. She runs up into her apartment. Her boyfriend's sitting there. She's been missing for four fucking months.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Months.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Months. She runs in, she's screaming. She's like, I better get to change up in a basement. This fucking lunatic or whatever. And the boyfriend's like, you're crazy. Are you on drugs?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Shut up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Swear to God. Swear to God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She couldn't look like nor like, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She probably didn't look great. But she ends up showing him all of her scars and her. Where the huge wounds where the chains have been. And he's like, oh, shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Maybe she broke up with him after. What the fuck?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or maybe their love got even deeper and stronger. And he was like, I'll never doubt you again, baby.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fair.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We don't know. What we do know is that he called the cops, okay? When the cops show up, they're like, you're crazy. And yelling. And then she's like, how about you take a look at these huge gouge marks everywhere on my body? And they were like, holy shit. And so they go to the gas station. Gary's just chilling out in his Cadillac, waiting for his lady to come back, and they arrest him. And then two officers go to the house.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So of course they can't get into the magical front door. That did work. He was right about that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. I mean, it's kind of a great idea that I never thought about before.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So just before 5am on March 27, 1987, the police arrive at Gary's house. They break down that front door, and they go down into the basement just like Josephina said they needed to. And down in the basement, they find Jacqueline Askins. They find Lisa Thomas, and they're both naked and chained to the ceiling pipe. They free them, and then Lisa points to the plywood and. Oh, sorry, there was an. I skipped a part.

[Audience Member / Guest]

They.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They. He had gotten another girl, another sex worker named Agnes. Agnes was in the pit that. So they pulled the plywood off, and she was down in the water in the pit. Then they go into the kitchen.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Stay out of the kitchen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, no, they gotta go. That's the thing. You gotta go in the kitchen.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In the kitchen, they find what looks like human ribs in the oven. And when they open the freezer, they find a human form.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Arm.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What? Yes. So basically, he's. He's arrested. He is tried and convicted on 18 charges. Two counts of first degree murder, five counts of rape, six counts of kidnapping, four counts of AG, aggravated assault. His. He tried to claim that Josephina was his accomplice. And this amazing judge. I believe her name was Judge Abraham, when he tried to argue that his. You have to read about this story. His defense lawyer is such a scumbag. Like, everything he says is the grossest thing you've ever read. And so one of his attempts at a defense was that it was Josephina's idea and that he had tried. Josephina was his accomplice. And the judge was like. Because he was trying to plead insanity. Not guilty by reason of insanity. And the judge was like, well, then if you were smart enough to get an accomplice, you're not insane. And then they're like, oh, no, no, then she's not. Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God, forget it. Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Forget. Get that. Cancel that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cancel that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cancel, cancel. So, yeah. It's so insane. Oh. And then. So the final blow against the defense and by the prosecution is just so amazing, is they call Robert Kirkpatrick to the stand. And that's Gary Heidnik's broker at Merrill Lynch. What?

[Georgia Hardstark]

His sock broker?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep. And they get that sock broker on the stand, and that guy says he testifies that Gary was an astute investor who knew exactly what he was doing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So there goes the insanity defense.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck. Yeah, that's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He gets convicted, he's sentenced to death, and on July 6, 1999, he's executed by lethal injection. And I mean, I kind of like. Like this. No one came to claim the body. They're like, no, thanks. And if any of that sounded familiar to you, Gary Heidnik's crimes. And the basement scene was the inspiration for Buffalo Bill in Silence of the Lamb Y. Where that came from. Ew. I just gave myself chills. That was weird. Isn't that crazy?

[Georgia Hardstark]

As soon as you were like, basement pit, loud music. Mr.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I got your dog, I'd me the whole nine yards. Katherine Martin, you're safe.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Remember? I don't want to hurt your dog. That are we. This isn't proper.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's not. It's not right. Anything we're doing. No, no. So that's the story of Gary Hidnick, Philadelphia. Yes, that's your guy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Excellent.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Excellent. So awful.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So awful.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So bad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Horrible.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Disgusting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, now that it's my turn, I'm going to put my shoes back on first because I just feel creepy. Someone. Oh, you need some shoes feel creepy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And do you feel like your. Your feet feel hot with the eyes on your feet?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, just knowing that these could easily go on wiki feet, these photos. Where there already are photos of my. No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yep.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you guys know about wiki feet? You know how if you put. You put like an actor and actress, usually just an actress, an actress's name into Google it. If you put the name in you, like, one of the things will come up underneath it is that person's name. So it's like Deborah Messing. One of the first things that'll come up underneath as a suggestion is Deborah Messing feet.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, no, I didn't know that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's so many foot fetishists out there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, there's a Wikipedia for feet and like any. If like Deborah Messing was at the beach, it'll just be like a close up of the photo of her feet and then they grade them and like they comment on them and like great toes, like. Or she needs a manicure, but otherwise I like her arch. Oh, I'm fucking kidding you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So check that out when you get home.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I better stay covered up for the rest of my life because I have Fred Flintstone feet like you would not believe.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm dying to look you up on that right now. Let's get it up on the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It simply cannot be.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, we're back. Karen, any updates?

[Karen Kilgariff]

There are some updates. So in that story, there were small but conflicting details about how Josephina escaped. So it depends on what source you read. On oxygen.com, it says that she managed to gain Heidnik's trust and that led him to bringing her on errands and rewarding her with a phone call, which then, then they say she then used to call the police. But then there's other outlets like People magazine, you know, major outlets that say she escaped him and flagged down a police officer. The Philadelphia Inquirer, meanwhile, kind of blends the two versions, saying she won his trust, was given 25 minutes of freedom to see her family, but then ran to a payphone as soon as he dropped her off for a visit. And that's when she dialed 911.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But we see this happen all the time, though, in, like, there are outlets that get the information from other outlets, trusting that source and when that original.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Source was incorrect and it gets all.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Convoluted and we are that source sometimes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Giving me incorrect information. So survivors Jacqueline Askins, Lisa Thomas, and Agnes Adams originally wanted to press charges against both Gary Heidnik and Josephina because they felt like Josephina had stepped into the role of the trusted captive and she didn't do anything to help them. But the DA declined to prosecute her and explained Josephina was forced to participate in crimes under extreme duress and noting ultimately that she saved them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So those are the updates. I think it's like that's. It's good context, too, in talking about that story, because that is what happens to. It's like she was a victim, just like the other victims, but then she was being played by this insane person.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And she had to play her own game. Game. Right. To survive.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Horrible situation.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Definitely.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, now let's get into George's story about Edward Gingerick.

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[Georgia Hardstark]

He's perfect.

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[Ed Helms]

Hey, everyone. Ed Helms here.

[Cal Penn]

And hi, I'm Cal Penn and we're the hosts of Earth say The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.

[Ed Helms]

This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Jenny Garth, host of the iHeart podcast. I choose me to discuss the new Audible adaptation of the timeless Jane Austen classic Pride and Prejudice. This is not a trick question. There's no wrong answer. What role would I play?

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know what I can say you.

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Okay, that's really sweet. I appreciate that, but are you sure I'm not the dad? I'm not Mr. Bennett. Here, listen to Earsay the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, well, my murder. There's only one person who gets murdered, so it's a little more light hearted.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, nice. We'll end on an up note.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Glad we're ending on this one. All right, this is the story of the only known case of homicide committed by an Amish man, Edward Duncan.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wait, say this second part again.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Edward Gindrich.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, Edward.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Jewish Gindridge.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Got it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Gindrich. And he's not Jewish.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's Amish. Amish. Amish.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's an Amish man.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Okay, so picture an Amish guy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Kind of hot.

[Chelsea Handler]

Just saying.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Kind of a Viggo Mortensen in Witness Situation.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Did you see me pause up here? Because I was like, you shouldn't say that. Then said it anyways.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Got to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. He is born on August 18, 1963 in an Amish family from Rockdale Township, Crawford County, Pennsylvania. He was said to have been somewhat of a rebel in the Amish way of life from an early age. What? He chewed gum. I don't know. What's a rebel?

[Karen Kilgariff]

He kicked his rock once.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He didn't work for three hours.

[Karen Kilgariff]

One day, he put brown sugar on his oatmeal.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Whoa. Edward is rock and roll.

[Karen Kilgariff]

God, I'm so into Edward. He wears his hat at askew.

[Georgia Hardstark]

His family reasoned that. And he was so. He was a rebel. He was kind of crazy, like, you know, wild. And his family was like, what? Well, if we get an unwaveringly faithful woman to marry him, she'll be a good influence. And so they married him off. December 2, 1986. He's married to an Amish woman named Katie. And people in their community are like, katie, don't do that. They were like. A bunch of people were like, I don't fucking believe in this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Huh?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which is like, you have to get married. And they were still like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because they thought he was a creepy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think that they were worried. Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They were apprehensive. That's not my word. I don't say that. They had three kids, Danny, Enos, and Mary. And he was starting to show signs of behavioral changes after the marriage, and they became more and more noticeable. By July of 88, he lost a ton of weight, became super depressed, and he spent a lot of time in the wood shop. And he got more and more interested in the machinery of the Amish people, but also with interacting with non Amish people. Everyone's known as the English. Did you know that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, everyone hears the English unless you're Amish. Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is there someone Amish here?

[Georgia Hardstark]

They're like, my first day of Rumspringer. I'm gonna go to a murder podcast.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So someone. There's, like, a group of kids that are having the most awesome rum spriga right now. They're just mugging like, we're gonna go from a barn to a murder podcast.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And they were like, shit, she's reading our only hometown murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that's the one I was gonna do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. So while he was working in the woodshop meeting English people, he befriended a non Amish man named David Lindsay, who told him that. That unless he renounced his Amish faith and became a born again Christian, which he was, he would go to hell.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ugh. I dated one of those, Uh. I swear to God that he was, like, in college. The first guy I dated tricked me. He was. We called him the secret Born again Christian because he was in the theater department and he never talked about religion at all until he and I started dating. Dating. And he was like, karen, I just need you to say these seven words. I was like, I'm already Catholic. Like, I think Jesus has got his eye on me. I don't need your. Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Did you dump him?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, he dumped me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Man. I would have made it my mission to corrupt him and then be like, okay, bye, bye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wish I could have. I was like, huh? What the Lord? Who?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, Christian. Then. Oh, and also that he would go to hell. And then he was. And that led him to believe he was being confined and held captive by his wife, Katie. So Edward's mental state, it continues to deteriorate. He begins hallucinating and has a psychotic break that scared his entire community, I bet. Seriously Starts ripping his hair out, claiming that it's on fire. Fire. His hair. His hair.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's what's happening with my hair.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, we all forgot to mention. Your hair's on fire.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Why wouldn't you tell me? Just. Just a very small smoldering fire.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It didn't look that bad. We let it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, it's kind of cute.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We thought it was your look.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's the new look.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Smoldering fire. Sorry. Hair fires. Okay, so Katie found her husband in their bedroom spitting at the ceiling and mumbling to himself. And she was like, sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Isn't spitting at the ceiling spitting at yourself? Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That is a good. That is a good point. Unless he was really good at spitting.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, unless you go thing out the side.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, no. Still wouldn't work.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And that at that point, she was like, that's it. Can't. She couldn't. That was the limit and limit. She's like, pull your hair. That's on fire. You're the devil. Yes. Spinning on the fucking sink.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Get out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then they. They do this thing that Amish people don't fucking do. She's like, call 91 1. This is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's like, I can't with this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How do they do that? They send a cow out into the.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Street or something, says, call 911 on him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They light a candle, put it on a cow's back, push it into the.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Road, send the 91 1. Kyle.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We are screwed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I would. I would say that we're going to get a lot of mean emails, but no one's listening to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They can't say shit to us.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow. This is. I feel free. Like, for the first time on this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Podcast, I feel so Free.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I can talk shit on whoever I want. Stephen, don't cut this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Stephen. Leave it in and turn it up louder.

[Georgia Hardstark]

911Amish people. It was a big deal. Okay, so he. So he's also. Okay, eventually. So Edward gets treated at a psychiatric hospital in Jamestown, New York, where he's diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenia schizophrenic. And he's given medication, of course, and it started to help his hallucinations. But when he got home, he was like, this is putting me in a zombie state. And he didn't like it. So he did what everyone does at some point in their medication therapy is he's like, I'm good. Quit. Yeah. You know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't do that. I mean, if you want to get off, like, just. Just don't quit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're both doctors. We should have said that at the.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Beginning of this oh, my God podcast.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We should have said it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Doctor.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Medical doctors.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But his wife was encouraging him to stop as well, because she was a traditional Amish person and she, you know, wanted.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She just wanted things to be better.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, yeah, she. Okay. But his. His state of mind continued to decrease. He started saying he was the devil. And then on March 18, 1933, Katie and Edward. What did I say?

[Karen Kilgariff]

33.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nope.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That is, he went back in time in the Amish time machine, which is a pile of hay that isn't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Dying head first. That isn't right. And that's not what I wrote. Oh, it's 1993.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. So Edward and Katie are having an argument, and she starts getting worried about it and his temper. And she sends their six year old son to run and get help, but the two younger kids stay behind. At that point, he runs and gets his uncle. His uncle goes back to the house, and by then, Katie was long dead. It started that. He punched Katie in the face, knocking her to the ground. Then he beat her to death.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sorry. He had with his boots. He stomped on her skull until it was left unrecognizable. And then it gets worse. Oh, he removed. So she's dead. He removed. Removes all her internal organs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Places them in a neat pile. How? Karen's calling bullshit on this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No way. Show me a neat pile of large intestines. I'll give you $25. That's bullshit. I'm sorry. Not.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I. Thank you. Lucky it. No, I'm glad that you said that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because I hadn't thought of it. And as soon as you said it was like, oh, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Someone Just say that to make it seem even worse. Okay, so. And he did all this while his two young children were in the house? No, no. And then he said for some reason later that for some reason he thought they could save her. So he was like trying to keep her organs to like in a clean pile to like save her later.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So he was just totally psychotic break. Not in the real world in any way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So. So they run him call 911 and they find the EMTs arrived and found a scene so horrific that One of the EMTs immediately left to vomit. Oh yeah. And Edward was gone and so were the kids. But don't worry, they found him later that day walking on country road with his kids. And the kids were fine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Edward's arrested, pleads insanity. The defense argues that Edward was affected by the fumes he inhaled accidentally in the workroom of the Wood place. The Wood house. The workroom. What do you call it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

The Wood room.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The Wood room. It doesn't sound right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The work. Wood.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The wood. Oh, the wood.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The woodworking room.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The woodworking room.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There it is.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Steven.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Stephen, speed that whole part up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Play that whole thing backwards, Stephen. So they're saying like he was in an unventilated room where they were using solvents all the time. And he went out of his mind because of that. But it sounded like a lot of stuff was saying that before that he was, you know, it was almost like the perfect storm. Yeah, there was.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Was already stuff happening.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. Okay. So the Amish community shuns him at this point, which is like the severest sin is straying from the Amish ways without repenting. So he's punished with excommunication, which is like fucking huge. While in prison, Edward says he starts following a new religion and signs a document saying he's an evangelical Christian. So maybe he met your ex boyfriend.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, he's probably good friends with him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So, okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

My dumb one week college boyfriend pops up from the side. I just need you to say seven words, Edward.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know where. Oh, he's tried. He's found guilty of involuntary manslaughter, but mentally ill, quote. And he's sentenced to a term of two to five and a half years.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Was this Amish court.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which means he was eligible for parole by 1995. He's denied his first bid, but he is granted his second.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So sorry. Because it was not guilty by reason of insanity then he only has. Okay, but they don't put him in a mental hospital.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They put him in a state correctional institute. Okay, so I. I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It doesn't sound like it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Maybe there's a mentally ill ward. Let's pretend.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So after five years in 98, he gets released. He's 34. He's released and forced. Yeah. Mentally health. Okay. He moves into a mental health facility in Michigan. And he also lived in Indiana before returning to the Brown Hill amish community in February 2007. And then they put him in like a thing for mentally ill Amish people. I guess there's like a one room somewhere with all the. They're probably kind of fun. No, no, no, no, no, no. They killed people. Sorry. He killed people.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's hard not to just try to imagine things about Amish people. It's mysterious and there's lots of barns.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, interesting. And it's hard on a of piece podcast not to say the first thing that pops into your mind and then regret it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. It's kind of what we do. It's kind of our jam.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You just roll the dice and hope you're. You don't say anything stupid. But it doesn't work, so it's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's quiet. Like when people are like, oh, I don't want to tell her. She's saying exactly what she does. Oh, no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, I just don't want to say anything stupid. And everyone's like, do you listen to. To the podcast? You don't know where Delaware is? We all know. Oh, they're right over there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You don't know that 25% and a quarter are the same thing. Hey, we live, we learn. Just like Alanis Morissette said one time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, so he'd been out of prison for 18 years and he's living on his attorney's property in Cambridge Springs, Pennsylvania, which is like, oh, it's so like sweet. Kinda, you know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Even though, like, the attorney was like, oh, I know he killed her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But he has nowhere to go.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's mentally ill. So he's living there for about a year when at 44 years old, he goes out to the. To the horse barn and in the morning and his. The husband and wife attorney are like, where is he? And the wife goes, finds him. He hung himself. Yeah. Yeah, I know. It's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He had written. The only suicide note he left was a message on top of a dust in dust on top of a bucket that read, forgive me, please.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's so Amish.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's like, I can't use a pencil.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And paper, so I have to write on a bucket. That's part of the rule.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, so the attorney said his community completely deserted him. They shunned him. They kept him from rejoining his family, which I guess the family, his immediate family, did want to, like, take care of him and take him back, and.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They wouldn't let him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They wouldn't let him take him back. He was an awfully good person, and he could have helped his community a lot. I don't know about that one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hey, I mean, here's the thing. Listen, look.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's a lot to learn.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Listen, look.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And listen. Despite all that, he was allowed to be buried in Amish cemetery with an Amish.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Headstone.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cemetery, no celebration. What do they call it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Funeral.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, but like the organ. You know, the. You know what I mean.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I don't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. Like an Amish burial. Like they said, the prayers are there for prayers. Phenomenal. Okay. I can't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's not what they're guessing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh. It's called a.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Butter churn.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And the journey said that that's all he would have wanted. So it was the only. It, as far as I could tell, at least at the time, it was the only known case of a homicide committed by an Amish man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I bet there's other ones, and they just won't tell us about it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fair enough.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was amazing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That was Edward Gingerich.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You guys.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's the lights come up, and there's just a row of hats in the back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We heard what you said about us. I don't know. What's the accent? That was weird. Not the accent.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it's called a ceremony, Georgia.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, someone did yell ceremony.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's what I meant. Ceremony, celebration.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You had ce, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I did. I shouldn't keep drinking this coffee.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do it. Chug it. Chug it. Chug it cold. All right, we're back. What are the updates for this story?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, there's no case updates, but while Edward Gingerick is widely considered the first Amish person to be convicted of homicide, it would be inaccurate to say he's the only known Amish person to have committed murder. In 2009, an Amish man named Eli Weaver conspired with his mistress to murder his wife, and he ultimately pleaded guilty to conspiracy to commit murder rather than a homicide charge. But he played a central role in his wife's death. And since this episode was recorded, there have been additional homicide cases involving Amish defendants.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, it makes sense. It's like. It's a closed culture. So any of those kinds of cases are things. Things that have Happened nobody's really known about.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. They keep it in their circle, but of course, you know, people snap in any culture. Right? Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, we have two hometown stories from this show. Listeners, Alana and Andrew are going to tell us their hometowns.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Now, do we have time for a.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think we do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you think we can.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

To the one mom out here. This is when we ask one of your. One of your fellow audience members to come up and tell us their hometown murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Now, I let. Karen, if you're Amish, we'd love to see you. That's for sure. What do you think? Wow. It goes back so far.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's so many empties. Seats.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's get that arm in the back on the right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Where?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And there's somebody holding two arms.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wait. Oh, that lady with the shoes in her arms. Okay. Do you ever. When you see two empty seats, do you ever think, oh, what did they fight about on their way here?

[Karen Kilgariff]

And turn around.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I want you to want to do the dishes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're going home, man.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They had a big fight. Yep.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's so, like, intense.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Dear Karen and Georgia, we broke up on the way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I hope you're happy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. Vince is gonna come get you. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't even tell you anything about it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's two people, uh. Oh, I think you can both.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God. What if you both fist fight right now? Last man standing, our woman. I feel, uh. Oh, yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I feel like neither of you look crazy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So both you go to go over.

[Georgia Hardstark]

To this young lady.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. You have to walk down that way and you have to slide your butt across people's laps. Do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This was a case of random gesturing into the audience gone wrong.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's very hard to be accurate in these situations.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can we get the lights down or they're gonna freak out when they're.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, we don't wanna look at you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's real scary to see all of you, especially you up there. You guys are right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You guys are the scariest of all.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hi, guys. What the fuck? What's your name?

[Audience Member / Guest]

Andrew.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hi, Andrew. Hi.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What are you doing on stage? Hi.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hi. What the. What are you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What are you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What was that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

The sound guy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What was that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's just some dude wandering around back there. Yes, I was the sound guy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hi.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What's your name?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Bob. Don't be mad at me. Bob. Bob, Bob, Bob.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you. Okay, girls first. Girls first. Girls first. You stand back there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Andrew.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Oh, it is really bright up here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know. What's your name?

[Audience Member / Guest]

My name is Alana, and I'm here with my friend Elena, and we actually.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's nuts.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Became friends because of this show. We like the. Probably the second time we talked to each other, we told each other that we like the show and bought tickets, so.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God, I love it.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Very nice to be up here. Shaking a little bit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry.

[Audience Member / Guest]

I actually took my shoes off to, like, wave.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Saw that.

[Audience Member / Guest]

So they're kind of wonky right now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're twins.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Just slide them back on real fast.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just so you know. You don't seem nervous, so don't worry about it. Yeah, good. I see the shake, but.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Yeah, yeah, you got.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, look. Me too, though, so.

[Audience Member / Guest]

My hometown.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Murder is also.

[Audience Member / Guest]

It's like a mixture between a. I survived.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Audience Member / Guest]

And of murder. So it's good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's good.

[Audience Member / Guest]

It's one of the faves.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Those are opposites, though. Well, I'll trust you. So.

[Audience Member / Guest]

I'm from Delaware.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah?

[Audience Member / Guest]

Yeah, yeah. Born and raised. I grew up in Newark. Live in Wilmington now, so.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Thank you. Thank you very much.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're not nervous?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fake handshake.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I'm just kidding.

[Audience Member / Guest]

No, I work in pictures.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Politics. So I'm.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So do we.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Murder. Politics.

[Audience Member / Guest]

So I grew up in a very suburban neighborhood in Newark. Delaware Home. University of Delaware.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Stop naming cities and telling stories. I like it. I like it. It's good.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Okay, so we've got another story to hear.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry, pal. We're getting there.

[Audience Member / Guest]

It's not that long.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So.

[Audience Member / Guest]

There was. So the neighborhood that I grew up in, very nice neighborhood. Like, nothing happened. Kind of just like a sleepy neighborhood. We, like, played all the time outside and all that kind of shit. So one day there was this woman in, like, the front of the neighborhood. So, like, you could see the house from the main road that was. That would go by. So she was, like, out tending to her rose garden. That's important.

[IBM Ad Voice]

Okay.

[Audience Member / Guest]

And so she's, like, sitting there, and I guess somebody drove by, and he. He worked at the local Chrysler plant, which went out of business, which was a big deal for Newark, and he saw what he liked.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He.

[Audience Member / Guest]

I wish I could show you a picture, but it's fine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He, like, use your words. Use your words. Paint it with you.

[Audience Member / Guest]

He drove to the front of the house, which was kind of like the side of the house because of the way that the neighborhood was set up. And he, like, nobody noticed. There was, like, a bus stop right there. Like, it was a Beautiful day. Everybody was out. Nobody saw him. And he went into the house. Cause nobody locked their doors. It was the 90s. It was probably 98. I think I was 4. So he went into the house and. And he waited for her to come in, but she didn't come in first. Her husband came in and he shot him. Who shot who?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wait, who shot who?

[Audience Member / Guest]

Oh, the bad guy shot the husband.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The good guy?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Why would the husband shoot the bad guy?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wouldn't that do? Because he saw a bad guy in his house.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's like, not even murder.

[Audience Member / Guest]

That's, like, defense. Don't fucking listen, you know?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Just saying. So.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Alana.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Alana.

[Audience Member / Guest]

So I guess the woman's name is Debbie. So Debbie didn't hear the gunshot, I guess so after she was done tending to her roses, she came in the house, and there was this man standing there, and he fucking kidnapped her, put her in the back of his car and drove her to his house, like, five miles away and tied her up and just, like, repeatedly raped her over the course of several days. And she was it. I think it was your story. Yeah, she, like, befriended him and, like, made her trust him and was like, he. He would, like, go to work for the day while this woman is just, like, tied up in his house because he's fucking horrible. And then he would just come home and rape her. So one day before he went to work, she was like, you know what? These ropes are, like, really hurting my wrists. Do you think you could loosen them or something? So he loosened them because he trusted her. And she managed to get out of the room that she was in because he was not as smart as Gary. He did not keep her in the basement with chains.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So.

[Audience Member / Guest]

She managed to call 911. And, I mean, they came and got her and everything was fine.

[Pets Best Insurance Ad Voice]

She lived.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So there was the.

[Audience Member / Guest]

I survived.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Audience Member / Guest]

But the best part of the story is, is that. Well, actually, there are two really good parts. My parents were in New Orleans at the time, and this was, like, national news. Like, people were talking about it. The neighborhood I grew up in was called Academy Hill. And so they were calling it Academy Kill or Murder Hill. And in New Orleans. And my parents were like, holy fucking shit, I fucking live there. So my grandparents had come to take care of us. And I distinctly remember riding my tricycle, like, towards the house and my grandmother chasing after me because, like, at that point, they still hadn't found the woman. And. And, like, there are fucking cops everywhere. So that was one good part. Another good part is, like, probably Six years ago, I was watching I Survived. It was the first time I ever watched it. And they like, in that show, they kind of show you like a nice little clip rather than. And it's like. It's nice. It's like a breeze flowing, right? So it's not cheesy or anything. And so they show. Show this clip of these rose bushes in front of the house. And I was like, why does that look so fucking familiar? And like, the neighborhood I lived in, there were only like three different houses and they just like made a billion of them. So, like, it ended up being Debbie and it was really fucking creepy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She actually has an episode of I Survived.

[Audience Member / Guest]

She has an episode of I Survived and it's really good. I don't remember which one it is, but forever since I've washed it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's amazing.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Probably should have watched it before I did this, but I did not think this was going to happen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You did good. Yeah. Thank you so much.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Good job.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was really good. Well done.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nice to meet you, too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thanks for being here. Go ahead and take that mic from her.

[IBM Ad Voice]

Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right, you come over. Thank you. I'll take it. I have to give it to Bob.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Should I go down or can I stand here?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, you can get in here.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Whatever you want with Andrew. Yeah, yeah. Hi, Andrew. Hi. How's it going?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hi. Thanks for being here.

[Audience Member / Guest]

It's so surreal right now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You have to know, isn't it like.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Wow, you guys are real people.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know. Isn't that weird?

[Georgia Hardstark]

And look down too.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Hi, guys.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're all watching us.

[IBM Ad Voice]

Oh, man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So we know any songs from Franklin?

[Audience Member / Guest]

You know what's funny? I had never heard of Hamilton. And like, I'm a teacher, so all the other teachers, like, you never heard.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Of Hamilton, but you know now, right? Yeah. Okay.

[Audience Member / Guest]

My story is actually about a co worker that I had at one of my first jobs. So of course a lot of you guys know in here the most wonderful place in the world, Christmas Tree Shop.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What is it?

[Audience Member / Guest]

I'm from Connecticut and they have a store called Christmas Tree. They have a store called Christmas Tree Shop and it just sells, like, all the bullshit that you can't find anywhere else year round. If you want like a flamingo made out of old tin cans that's like painted all nice and it's right here, just Dream store. It's right next to the dog food and right next to the gummy bears and right next to all this, like, crazy shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What? Wait, why do they call it Christmas Tree Shop?

[Audience Member / Guest]

Because it's like a bunch of just random stuff. They don't sell Christmas trees. They don't sell anything.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This isn't. Okay. They need to get their story straight.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Exactly. It's really weird. So there was a guy in the stock room named Zachary La Palooza, and.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I've been to his music festival.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sorry, sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm very sorry about that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You grabbed it. It was there and you grabbed it.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Oh, yeah, it was when I was, like, 13 or 14. Actually, no, I had to be, like, 16, because there was no way I was working then.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Audience Member / Guest]

So I was like. I was around 16. And he used to do stock for me. He was, like, 26, 28. He had, like, a bowl cut that made his head look exactly like a penis.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Whoa.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Exactly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How? How?

[Audience Member / Guest]

Like, it was just like. If he had. If he had, like, his hair, it was like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, no.

[IBM Ad Voice]

You know what I mean?

[Audience Member / Guest]

Like, perfectly, like, as though he had a penis bowl that they cut. You know what I mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Look like a.

[Audience Member / Guest]

It was. It was bad. It was bad. But he was a really quiet guy. Really, like, mild man or whatever. Every time I used to come in, he used to be the one to open the door in the back. So I used to walk in, hey, what's up, Zach? And, like, go to work, whatever. But we had another manager named. I think her name was Shant. But apparently they had had some kind of problem where he fell off a ladder or did something or other. She said that it was his fault. So he didn't get workman's comp, and he got fired. He flipped a shit, came in the next day, was like, where the fuck is she? A guy that I had never known to be, like, angry. He was really quiet. He just came in freaking out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You were there. No.

[Audience Member / Guest]

No, I was not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Yeah. No, no. By this time, I had gotten fired for coming back late on my break.

[Georgia Hardstark]

For what?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Christmas tree store is intense.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Exactly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So.

[Audience Member / Guest]

So I had found out later on that he freaked out. Whatever. Whatever. They had sent Chantrese to work at the Christmas tree shop in Rhode Island. So, like, all the way across state lines, he found out that she was there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Got a big fucking kitchen knife or something. Drove all the way from Connecticut to Rhode island across state lines.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How far is that? This language?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Pretty far.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How many? Like, an hour.

[Audience Member / Guest]

I'm horrible with. With maps and stuff. You guys were talking about where Delaware.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Was, and I was like, yeah, I see two. I see two.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Two hours.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Yeah. Somewhere, like. I mean, pretty far.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Audience Member / Guest]

And so he drove across state lines, found out that she was working at this Christmas tree shop, sat out front, waited for her to leave for the night, drove back to her house, and then killed her in the house. Stabbed her like, 78 times. Whoa.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Audience Member / Guest]

At first it was like, 45 times. And he was like, put her in the car, drove away with her. Yeah. So he drove away with her in the car. Then apparently he was like, oh, 45 was not enough. He got out of the car, stabbed her another, like, 30 times.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Holy shit.

[Audience Member / Guest]

And then took her body, threw it in, like, a ravine somewhere and threw a toilet on top of her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, Zach, right?

[Audience Member / Guest]

Like, fucking Zach, you know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Audience Member / Guest]

And so, yeah, that was. He stabbed her 70 times, threw her in or whatever. They found her, like, a week and a half later. Yeah. And he had no idea who it was. But then they had blood evidence that she had, like, trying to fight him or something. They found blood evidence underneath her nails. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Audience Member / Guest]

And realized that he was the one that got fired in Connecticut.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Tied it all back together and went and found him. So now he's doing life in Rhode Island.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, dang.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That was amazing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow, that was a good one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, you think you kind of know someone.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Good old Christmas tree shop.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know what? You see that bowl cut, you just walk the other way every time. Am I right? All right, thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you, Andrew.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was awesome. Thank you so much. Thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right. Thank you so much.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thanks for being here. Thanks, you guys.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was so cool.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Leave that for.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That was our last hometown of this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Her. Yeah. Best friends. Best friends. Brand new best friends.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They'll be signing autographs in the lobby after this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And we're back. There are no updates for either of those hometown cases. Just to keep everybody apprised, our researchers always look and see just in case there's a little something to tell you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That there ain't no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So this episode was originally titled Live at the Keswick Theatre.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If we were naming it today based on some funny shit from the episode, maybe we'd call it Sophisticated Mist.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Come on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love vintage tags almost as much as I love vintage clothing. Then they make you laugh. Like they're just so ridiculous.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's ridiculous. And it's like time and place kind of thing. It's like that little reveal, sophisticatedness. It's so funny. Or we could call it Old Anvil, which was my joke about you buying all the heaviest things that you wouldn't want to travel with. With when you shop on the road.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I still do that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then also Franklin, because I called Hamilton Franklin.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That made me laugh so hard. Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It just shows you how not into fucking musical theater I am. Franklin.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, at the time, I think it was just starting to be popular, so it's like, it sounds even crazier today. It's like calling it the Little Merman.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right, Right. What's it called? Franklin.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, they should do a musical about Ben Franklin.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Why isn't there one? I fucking gave the 2017. I gave it basically on a platter.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Poor man's copyright we already cited on a podcast.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our idea.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, well, thanks for listening, you guys. We're gonna say goodbye from the keswick theater in 2017.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Bye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You guys. Okay. We've had the best time on this tour. It has been so cool to be here with you in real life and. And see that the bullshit we do in George's apartment actually matters to seemingly a shit ton of people. It's such a huge compliment. Yeah, it really is. Like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And every single fucking person we've met on this tour has been cool and someone we would be friends with and hang out with and so fucking nice and awesome, and we feel so lucky.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, we. We talk about it all the time. Yeah, you're crying. We talk about all the time, though, that just, like, we keep saying that to vents. We're like, can we just keep doing this? We want to do this for a living. How could you not want to do this for fucking a living? So thank you for you guys being here. Buying tickets, supporting us is the reason we can even do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you so much, Philadelphia.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you so much.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You are an amazing crowd. Stay sexy and don't get up. Bye, you guys. Thank you.

[Cal Penn]

Hey, audiobook lovers. I'm Kalpin.

[Ed Helms]

I'm Ed Helms.

[Cal Penn]

Ed and I are inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with our new podcast, Irsay, The Audible, and iHeart Audiobook Club.

[Ed Helms]

Each week we sit down with your favorite iHeart podcast hosts and some very special guests to discuss the latest and greatest audiobooks from Audible.

[Cal Penn]

Listen to Hearsay on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow earsay, and start listening on the free iHeartradio app today at CVS.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It matters that we're not just in.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

And we want everyone to feel welcomed and rewarded. It matters that CVS is here to fill your prescriptions and here to fill.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

At cvs, we're proud to serve your community because we believe where you get your medicine matters. So Visit [e-mail] or just come by our store.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We can't wait to meet you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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