Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 78: The Freshest Recording

Summary

My Favorite Murder: Rewind with Karen & Georgia – 78: The Freshest Recording

Released: January 7, 2026
Hosts: Karen Kilgariff & Georgia Hardstark
Podcast: My Favorite Murder (Exactly Right / iHeartPodcasts)

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Episode Overview

This episode of "Rewind with Karen & Georgia" revisits the original episode 78, "The Freshest Recording," first released July 20, 2017. The hosts offer real-time commentary on the original episode, peppering in updates on the cases discussed, personal reflections, and reactions to now-outdated perspectives. The theme centers around the ongoing evolution of true crime storytelling, advances in forensic technology, and the enduring emotional resonance of the cases they cover—most notably the John Wayne Gacy victim identification, the Ellen Halbert survival story, and the Oklahoma Girl Scout Murders.

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Key Topics & Insights

1. A True ‘Fresh’ Episode Recording

• The episode is notable for being recorded and released on the same day—a first for the show in 2017, adding a spontaneous, immediate tone.
• Memorable Banter: They joke about doing a morning recording, discussing whether it's acceptable to drink whiskey that early, and revisit Karen's history with alcohol and sobriety.
  • Karen: “If you or any of your friends are drinking whiskey in the morning, that was the end stage for me right before I was hospitalized...”(2:44)

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2. Karen’s True Crime TV Experience & Reflections on Jury Responsibility

• Karen recounts a memorable experience moderating a press panel for Oxygen’s "The Jury Speaks," where she interviewed jurors from controversial trials (George Zimmerman, O.J. Simpson, Michael Jackson).
• She highlights the emotional toll on jurors and how public anger often targets them instead of systemic judicial flaws.
  • Karen: “Instead of blaming the justice system that let George Zimmerman go, they blamed the jury for voting the way that they were told to vote, which is if you have reasonable doubt...” (4:16)
• Both hosts reflect on the changing understanding of race, bias, and justice, growing beyond the perspectives of their younger selves.

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3. True Crime News Update: John Wayne Gacy Victim Identified

• The hosts discuss real-life case updates, specifically the identification of a John Wayne Gacy victim, Jimmy Hawkinson, decades after his murder (8:00–13:28).
  • Georgia: “So there’s eight unidentified victims…[in] 1978 when they found the bodies...His mother actually went to Chicago in 1979...But because she didn’t have dental records, they couldn’t tell her anything.” (9:04–9:30)
• The discussion pivots to advances in forensic genealogy and the emotional gravity of finally having answers.
  • Karen: “It makes me happy that they're still working the way they are for this. There's something about that that's very heartening to me.” (14:00)

2025 Update

• Georgia adds a retrospective: As of 2025, five Gacy victims remain unidentified, with investigators urging more families to submit DNA.
  • Georgia: “As of 2025, five Gacy victims remain unidentified, with investigators urging relatives nationwide to submit DNA samples for comparison.” (29:48–30:23)

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4. Listener Interaction & Gifts

• The hosts thank Murderinos for tips and updates, read heartfelt listener letters, and give shout-outs to listeners who’ve sent handmade gifts inspired by the show, such as the Sisters Gamble’s custom Murderino necklaces (20:11–22:56).
  • Listener Quote: “With the mindset of ‘fuck perfection,’ I successfully created a little bit of jewelry for you guys and all the other Murderinos out there...[because] you inspired the whole thing.” (21:05–22:14)
• They reflect on the impact of encouragement to “just do things”—echoing Brene Brown’s theme of fighting perfectionism.

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5. Survivor Story: Ellen Halbert and Enduring Aftermath

• Karen retells the I Survived episode featuring Ellen Halbert—an Austin woman attacked in her home in 1986 by Troy Eugene Wigley.
  • Summary: Halbert survived being raped, stabbed, and left for dead. Despite immense trauma, she became a renowned victims’ advocate and criminal justice reformer in Texas (35:13–50:04).
  • Karen: “He starts to explain to her what his deal is and basically says that he’s been hiding in her attic for two days…then he says, I’m going to rape you. She begs for mercy as a Christian woman. He says it doesn’t matter what he does to her because no one’s ever going to catch him.” (39:00–40:00)
  • Karen: “She was determined to come out on the other side stronger...She starts to speak out for victims’ rights and what needs to change in what she calls our offender-focused criminal justice system. In 1991, she’s appointed by then Governor Ann Richards to serve on the Texas Board of Criminal Justice.” (47:14–48:04)

2025 Update

• Troy Wigley remains in prison, denied parole as of the latest update. Karen and Georgia note how survivor stories shifted their approach to sharing true crime, placing higher value on hope and resilience.

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6. Oklahoma Girl Scout Murders

• Georgia covers the harrowing 1977 case where three young girls—Lori Lee Farmer, Doris Denise Milner, and Michelle Guse—were sexually assaulted and murdered on their first night at Camp Scott, Oklahoma (52:08–79:42).
  • Key details: The killer entered their tent after leaving menacing notes weeks earlier. The prime suspect, Gene Leroy Hart, was acquitted but imprisoned for earlier crimes and died in custody. The case remains deeply divisive and technically unsolved due to inconclusive DNA evidence.
  • Georgia: “A counselor at Camp Scott had found that her tent had been ransacked and her donuts were stolen. And in the donut box...was a note warning that three girls would be murdered at the camp in the future.” (54:25)
  • Karen: “So they hunker down for the night...tent eight is known as Kiowa...and it’s about 86 yards away and it’s partially obscured by the shower for the camp. So it was like the most remote cabin.” (55:56)
  • Georgia: “It truly is such a nightmare story. Just heartbreaking.” (84:47)

2022–2025 Updates

• New DNA tests “strongly point” to Hart but remain officially inconclusive.
• Hulu/ABC series “Keeper of the Ashes,” hosted by Kristin Chenowith (who narrowly missed attending the doomed camp) revisited the case in detail.
• Conflicting claims of possible other perpetrators, reflecting ongoing pain and ambiguity—no definitive closure provided yet.
  • Georgia: “In 2023...Buddy Bristol said he’d been at the campsite...‘one of the other men murdered the little girls and the other men who he named are still living in the community today.’” (83:42)
  • Karen: “We want a definite answer, and there’s just nothing to give.” (83:58)

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7. Meta-Reflections and Podcast Tone

• The hosts highlight the difference between now and 2017 in terms of forensic capabilities and their willingness to explore ambiguous or unresolved cases.
• Their style remains a mix of sincere empathy, speculative discussion (“vague postulating”), and irreverent humor, even on dark topics.
  • Karen: “This podcast is speculation…I like to lie out. What was the quote...the vague postulating.” (11:48–12:05)
• The episode jokes about titles ("Morning Positive," "Sincere Vague Postulating") and addresses their personal quirks—like knowing childhood phone numbers, or ambitions to start bringing briefcases.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the Jury System:
  • Karen: “Instead of blaming the justice system that let George Zimmerman go, they blamed the jury for voting the way they were told to vote…” (4:16)
• On Listener Engagement:
  • Karen: “Thank you, mommy...Now all the tweets are ‘I know you’ve already seen this, but just in case.’ Which is sweet. Thank you, mommy.” (8:13)
• On Survivors:
  • Karen: “She makes a full recovery. It takes her years of pain and hard work...She realized she has to get help, gets counseling, starts to speak out for victims rights.” (47:01–47:22)
• On Gacy and Forensics:
  • Georgia: “As of 2025, five Gacy victims remain unidentified, with investigators urging relatives nationwide to submit DNA samples for comparison.” (29:48–30:23)
• On the Girl Scout Murders:
  • Georgia: “It truly is such a nightmare story. Just heartbreaking.” (84:47)
• On the Podcast’s Essence:
  • Karen: “This podcast is speculation…I like to lie out…Vague postulating.” (11:48–12:05)
• Personal Touches:
  • Dottie the kitten’s “origin story”; reflections on shifting energy ("Morning Positive"); and humorous regrets about not naming episodes after their quirks.

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• Recording Banter & Sobriety Jokes: 00:21–03:19
• Karen’s Oxygen/Jury Speaks Story: 03:44–07:05
• Gacy Victim DNA Update: 07:57–14:00
• Listener Mail (Murderino Necklaces): 20:11–22:56
• Ellen Halbert Survivor Story: 34:24–51:06
• Oklahoma Girl Scout Murders: 52:08–79:42
• Case Updates / Modern Forensics Discussion: 79:42–84:50
• Meta-reflection on Podcasting, Titles, and Tone: 85:36–87:19

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Final Thoughts

• The episode is one of contrasts: grim true crime content and lighthearted commentary, personal growth as podcasters, and community-building among listeners.
• Recent forensic advancements lead to both progress and frustration—DNA can strongly indicate involvement, but not always conclusively solve cases, leaving families and communities in long-term uncertainty.
• Through their unique balance of empathy, humor, and unabashed speculation, Karen and Georgia continue to create a space where dark stories are examined not just for shock, but for humanity, progress, and hope.

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Closing Remark:
"Stay sexy and don’t get murdered." – Karen & Georgia (88:29)

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Episode Title Contenders:

• The Freshest Recording (original)
• Morning Positive
• Sincere Vague Postulating

Transcript

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is exactly right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hello and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

That's right. Every Wednesday we recap our old shows and we give you new commentary and updates and insights.

Today we're recapping episode 70, which we named the freshest recording.

Yeah, it really is. This episode came out on July 20, 2017.

So let's get into it. Let's listen to the intro of episode 78.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The Beeping. Should I go tell the beeping to stop?

You don't hear that? There's no beeping, Georgia.

And we started and breakdown. And Georgia hears beeping.

Do you hear that sound of a baby crying?

This is not an ad for.

For a new be.

For a new brain.

We're bringing back beepers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Beepers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Are you a doctor or a drug dealer?

Or do you play one on tv?

Then you need a beeper.

Or are you having an affair and you need a way for your an affair person to contact you.

What was the affair? What was the thing of like some kind of a 41 1, but for hookups?

No.

Yeah, it was like I didn't do.

I guess I didn't hook up when I had a beeper.

Oh, I did all the time. No, when I was an emergency room intern. No, never. Of course.

You're serious.

I'm super blackout drunk in a bar.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then I hold up my beeper.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Guys, I've gotta go. My sugar daddy's calling me.

One of my. Hey, welcome to my favorite murder.

Hey, welcome to my favorite murdered. That's Georgia Hartstar.

That's Karen Calgariff.

We're here to read to you and tell to you true crime stories from all around the nation and world.

And more.

And then some.

And then more.

And then after that, half a teaspoon more. It's the morning. We've never recorded in the morning.

This is so weird.

I had to stay at work late last night. Everybody gotta adjust to my needs. So we were supposed to record last night. I called and said I'm still at work then. Georgia, you've actually been into this idea for a while. I feel like you've been very morning positive about.

Right. It just feels fun and fresh and like, different. You know what I mean? Like recording in a different place. It feels like a field trip without going anywhere.

Yes. School is new again for us.

Yeah.

And now I can really learn.

And it lets me drink whiskey in the morning finally. Because I can't do this podcast without whiskey. That's not true.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's not true.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But let me just. I just need to put this out here. If you or any of your friends are drinking whiskey in the morning. That was the end stage for me right before I was hospitalized. I know you're joking.

What time? I meant that I was legitimately after 11:30.

You're in the clear.

Yeah, I always am.

Like.

Like, can I. No. If it's not at a weekend and it's not brunch. Although this is like. Well, what's weird is that this is gonna come out later today. So everyone listening on Thursday. This is this morning. Are you fucking. Dee doo doo dee doo.

Oh, yeah. Same day. Yeah, Same first time, same day. This is the freshest recording we've ever.

It's not your fault. I was out of town on Tuesday and Monday so we couldn't record like we usually do.

Oh, thank you.

That's Georgia.

That means a lot to me that you.

I wouldn't put it on you at all.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cause.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's very nice of you to mention. I didn't even realize that George is. How was that trip, by the way? Tell the people what you were doing.

I fucking had this crazy experience Oxygen had.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They were gonna have us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Instead it was just me available and I was like, fuck yeah. Hell yeah. Oxygen is turning into true crime network. This is not a plug. They didn't pay me to do this or anything like that.

She's just trying to tell her story.

I really had an incredible time. So they have this like special.

The jury speaks.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The jury.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you.

You're welcome. I'm very early.

I'm really early. And I've only had bullet coffee.

You've only had two shots of whiskey.

Yeah, so far. So the jury speaks. And so I did this panel for press where I interviewed four of the jury members who were on these like high profile cases where they were really fucking controversial and like kind of ruined these jurors lives for a while. Because instead of blaming the justice system that let George Zimmerman go, they blamed the ju for voting the way that they were told to vote, which is if you have reasonable doubt and then it asks the question, like, if you with everything, you know now, would you vote differently? And these people were so. They were just normal people who were very affected by these trials, by what happened to them afterwards.

How could you not be?

This one woman who was on the George Zimmerman trial was just such a. She just was so emotionally raw and wonderful and I really, really. She really touched me.

It sounds like it's gonna be a good show. I would love to watch that.

I watched it, you know, you're like, I'm so sick of the O.J. simpson trial. I've seen every fucking thing about it. Well, this is from the jury's perspective.

It's all intimate, which you've never seen anything of.

And they explain why they voted the way they voted, which everyone's like, you fucking.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, it's the Michael Jackson case. It's really cool.

I feel like people were fuck you in the 90s and now, especially because of those two things that came out recently. Everyone's like, oh, yeah, I get it. I'm starting to get it. As like a white American, I'm starting to understand what all the things I didn't know.

Yeah.

And never opened my eyes to before were about.

Yeah. And how unfair it is. Yeah. Yeah. It was really, really interesting. So that's what I was.

That's great.

And it was fun, I bet.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did you get your hair did?

I got my nails and toes did.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But like, what about. Were you in that makeup chair?

I'm saying that's my favorite part of anything. No, for this, I. It wasn't. It wasn't recorded, unfortunately, because I, for the first time in my life, headed the panel. Oh.

It was like a live panel.

It was a panel for press. And so there was like 50, 60 people in the room that were in press. And I was like, so when you got sequestered and asking. And then the person who made the show is Nancy Glass, who, remember, was the Inside Edition blonde woman.

Nancy Glass.

Yeah. And she's a fucking badass. And she was on the panel and she's just been. She's won Emmys. She's just an incredible broadcaster. So it's so weird to be sitting there interviewing her. Wow. And I'm like, you should be. She was incredible. And so she made it. It's just. It's great.

That's so cool.

Yeah, I had a really good time.

Does that mean she picked you to be the. The person?

I don't know. I don't think so. But she pretended to know who I am and that was. I was honored. I took a photo with her.

It was just exciting.

Yeah. She's just this long time true crime investigative journalism journalist, host, and I was just. I was honored to be there.

That's awesome.

Thank you.

First class.

First class on the way there. Oh, shit. Girl on my dime.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I didn't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They didn't. Yeah.

I love it.

How about you?

Who, me? Oh, I'm just sitting in a office for 11 hours a day talking about what fictional characters may or may not do in their lives and why and if it could be symbolic or any meaningful in any way to other people. And it's just conversation after conversation. And by the time I leave, I don't want to speak look at anybody else. I've eaten so much Trader Joe's snack food. Yeah, I have it really rough, but first class. First class all the way, baby. The one thing I did want to mention we've gotten tons of tweets about is the fact that they ID'd.

A.

An unknown victim of John Wayne Gacy.

Totally.

Cook county sheriff just made this announcement, and of course, we got 1,000 tweets about it, which I love. The funniest thing is, now all the tweets are. Did you already get this?

Yeah. Or I know you already saw this, but just in case. Which is sweet.

Thank you, mommy. Yeah, so just really quick, if you haven't read any of the articles, which you probably.

And they came out today, so I'm glad we're recording today. Yeah.

So they said. So there's eight unidentified victims. And at the time when they found these bodies, it was 1976. No, sorry. It was 1978 that they found the bodies, I believe.

Right. I don't have the year 78 or 79.

Yeah, but. So eight were unidentified. And they couldn't do anything about it because they didn't. They, of course, obviously didn't have the forensics that we have today. And they kept jawbones. I know, but they. So that if people came forward with dental records.

So creepy. Yeah, but back then, like, dental wasn't a thing that it is today, which is like, you take your kids immediately. So not everyone had dental records back then.

That's exactly right. And that's. So this identified victim, Jimmy Hawkinson, he was 16 years old when he was murdered by John Wayne Gacy.

Oh, baby.

And his mother actually went to Chicago in 1979 to try to find out if her missing son was one of the victims. But because she didn't have dental records, they couldn't tell her anything. They had no way of knowing anything. But they've continued to test these, the evidence, the remains that they have. And the cool thing is, so it's 39 years later, and Hawkinson's nephew sees that they're still testing remains, so he encourages his. I believe it was his aunt and his father to go give the DNA so they could test it.

And now he's fucking murderino. If he's just like, I'm gonna track my uncle Down.

Well, wouldn't you be so fascinated if you had a missing uncle who was suspected to have been at 16?

Yeah. You and I would be. I think most people listening would be like, I'm gonna track this down. But some people would be like, this is too hard for my family. They don't want to talk about it.

Yeah. And it's also. When it's just a missing child, that's just like, that's. I mean, it's so sad. Just no answer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You just don't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you want the answer? Cause then it's like it's a period on the sentence that, like, maybe he'll walk through the door someday or maybe, you know, not really wanting to know that it's over and that this monster, John Wayne Gacy is the reason. And like his mom let him move to Chicago to start a new life. And then they said.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That he called her on August 5th. I just read it this morning. Yeah.

When he got there.

When he got there. And they think maybe the same day he got captured. Right.

Well, that was all I read, was that was the last she ever heard of him. So it was like very soon after. I love the way that he really underlined the fact that his family loved him. His family had been searching for him. This was not, you know, it's that thing they always do. Not always do, but sometimes do. The story with victims, which is the hitch, you know, the hitchhiker who didn't care about their life, the runaway who. It doesn't matter what happened to them anyway. The sex worker who, I mean, who really cares? This is just another victim. Or it's like he really was underlining. This is a family who missed their child, their 16 year old boy for 39 years.

Yeah. I hope I didn't sound like when I said that they didn't want to know that. I don't know if that's true or not, but.

No, you're just saying that's a possibility.

For some people, probably.

Then the grief, then you have to like, then that's a whole new grieving.

Process and you've learned how to compartmentalize this. Anyways. I don't know. I've never. I've never lost someone like that. So.

Yeah, who knows?

I'm just speculating.

Yeah.

That's how this show is. This podcast is speculation.

It's speculation. I like to lie out.

What was the quote or the like saying you call it or someone called.

It the vague postulating.

That's vague postulating.

Something like serious vague postulating.

That's what I'm all about.

We're just talking about it.

Sincere, vague, postulating something. Well, that's fucked up, and I'm glad. And then the creepiest part to me was that they could tell when it happened based on this stacking of the bodies.

Oh, right. Like what number victim he was.

Yeah, yeah. I'm sorry, can you hold on one second? There's someone either trying to break in or clean.

Probably clean, but why would they.

Or the kittens doing something, which I don't think she is.

Sounds like cleaning.

I don't think they do that ever. No. Look at that. Fucking disgusting.

Why would you. Yeah, but how do you get up there?

Maybe.

Maybe there's something going up the side of the building.

All right, well, keep this in because someone's trying to break into my fucking house right now. I don't see anybody. Okay? They left. They gave up. And then you hear smash.

It turns out it was a hummingbird.

Crashed into the window.

That hummingbird's trying to kill me.

That's where my brain goes to. Immediately. Yeah. So they stacked the bodies, and that's. He stacked them by, like, when he got them, he just, like, buried them on top of each other. So they could be like, he died at this time or this year. Because we know the body underneath him went away, like, disappeared on this day. And the one on top of him disappeared on this day. So, yeah, they can. It's not creepy. The visuals of that makes me so sad for these kids.

The visual of that is what, like, sparked my. What the hell is going on in this actual world?

That's exactly it. Yeah. With the burying of the bodies each time. It was the diagram.

A diagram of where the bodies were buried in the house. And to me, to my child's mind, I thought he'd buried them in the wall. It didn't make sense to me that it was underneath. So I was just like. Cause I knew my parents were telling me stuff, because my parents would always be like, we'll tell you later. We'll tell you when you're older.

Which nothing makes you want to know. I mean, then they tell you that for real.

And so that was one of the ones. Anyway, it makes me happy that they're still working the way they are for this. There's something about that that's very heartening to me.

Can we go back to. You never gave me an answer. What time drinking whiskey means you're about to. Karen out and have to go to the hospital. Call it.

Karen.

I'm sorry. Stephen, take that out.

No, you don't have to. You know what it is? It's not time of day. It's that you think you need it.

Why? And you think it's okay when it's not a choice.

Because it moves to a point where it's not a choice anymore. Especially when you're. At that point. I was only drinking whiskey only. So my friends, we'd meet at a bar, people would get a round of beers. I would have a shot of Jameson's. I would be done before everybody. Of course, mine was smaller. And then I would keep on having shots of whiskey until I was trying to kick the bouncer in the shins for no reason. Party central.

Party. Karen.

Party times.

Anyways, all right, so 11 o' clock at the time.

Right around 11, 15. If at that point, I remember taking a bottle of Jameson's off the top of my refrigerator the second I woke up in the morning, like, it was coffee. And as I drank it, like, just took a swig of it, thinking, this is very bad.

Oh, you knew then.

Yeah.

But you were like, well, I'll stop soon. I'll stop doing this. But today is not the day.

No, I knew. No, you know what it was. I knew it was bad, and I knew I should stop, but I also knew I could not stop.

I knew that. Oh, how scary.

It was horrible.

I'm sorry.

Thank you.

Congratulations. Because you fucking did it. And you did it well and you didn't. You did. I'm so impressed that you did that.

Thank you.

As someone who drinks, I mean, look.

I highly recommend seizures.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They're very.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They are upsetting, they're mysterious.

I tried one at, like, 12, gave it a shot at 12. Wasn't for me.

No, I mean, they're not for everybody.

Yeah, I really had a seizure at 12.

For what?

I don't know. My brother? Yeah, I think so. My brother and I have both had one seizure, like, around that age, and then never again.

It might have been your brain growth spurt, because kids have them when they're seven. They have them when they're babies, if they have fevers sometimes. Sometimes when you're seven, sometimes when you're 14. Every seven years, when your brain grows.

And, like, hormone release. And I had been working, like, playing soccer all day. Probably was dehydrated. And I had it in my. This isn't interesting. I had it in my sleep, which isn't supposed to actually be a seizure.

No, no. Did I tell you that's when I have all mine?

Oh, right. That's right.

They are seizures.

Did I tell you I was sharing. This is how young I. I was sharing a bunk bed with my sister. I started shaking. Thank God we shared a room at the time. She ran into my mom's room and said, we were really into the Simpsons at the time. And she said, mom, George is having a cow. I was probably younger. I was probably like, your mom's like, what the fuck? Yeah. Oh, Jesus. And I missed my whole. In the ambulance. I'm so pumped about that.

Oh, because you were out?

Yeah.

It's not that great. It's kind of weird.

Okay. It's not, like, fun like you'd think. It's not as fun as you think. Stephen Ray Morris keeps giving us presents. Oh, no, we get him nothing.

You just pulled that out of the envelope a little bit. And I see vhs.

You see vhs. This must have cost Stephen. Send us an invoice. Here you go.

It's your story.

Here you go. Read it to everyone.

Echoes in the Dark. Joseph Wambaugh's Echoes in the Darkness. Everybody, this is the story.

Fucking video cassette he tracked down.

It's Peter Coyote, Robert Loggia, Stalker Channing, telling the story of William Bradfield Patches. We called him Dr. Smith.

Principal. What was his name?

I don't remember the principal.

And then Patches. Missing children with the little statue in the forest. Stephen. Oh, guys, A plus.

[Steven Ray Morris]

It's such a cool vhs. Like, it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, it's. It's such a VHS that I remember from my childhood.

I mean, it's in perfect condition.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Somebody really held on to that tight.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Somebody really? Yeah, somebody dusted their VHS shelf every day.

What makes me sad is, like, what happened to them that they. We were able to get this if they saved it that long. Either they died and their parents or their siblings were like, sell it on ebay. Sell all of Dad's VHS. Oh, can I go dark all the time?

Can I ever go positive? Because now. Let's do the therapy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There are four other choices that are happening here.

Holding our. Holding our hand up with five fingers.

Every time you think of something that's upsetting, that you think is the truth, somebody's something's working on the side of your house. Okay, that sounded like a weird fart, didn't it?

No, it sounded like a noisemaker. When New Year's Eve. Okay, so you hold up. Okay, everyone, this is the rule of six. The rule of five, okay?

No, the rule of six.

Sorry. Okay, so number one is the negative thought. So you're like, someone died and that's why we have the vhs.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Someone died.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's the only reason we have a vhs.

Yeah. Which I kind of enjoy postulating in the court way.

Well, worst case, you always explore the worst case.

Yeah. So then the 5 is like, maybe they had a wonderful life with wonderful family. Maybe they're not actually dead. And maybe they were happy to let this move on to someone else. Stephen, tell us the background of you buying this. Did someone send it to you or.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Was like, oh no, I just found it on ebay. But the, the, the, the person sent a letter.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh my God. Handwritten, so they're still alive.

[Steven Ray Morris]

And it says, dear customer, please know I upgraded in bold at my cost. Your VHS ordered a first class mail because I consider you a first class customer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Congratulations.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Media mail I consider too slow. I also mailed it in a padded mailer with free delivery confirma. You have earned. I hope I have earned your five star feedback. You have. And if not, please message me on how to improve. Thanking you, Karen with an I.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

Oh my God, Karen.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Karen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Great job, Karen.

Speaking of great job. And this isn't a present. That's not from me. And then I want to read the letter because it, this is from a murderino. The letter made me cry.

Nice.

But it's really self serving because it's because of something I said. Upwards. Sure. Is that okay?

I feel like that, that's, that's. This is podcast.

Okay, so. Da da da da. Karen Dorja Stevens sisters and I are a huge fan sending you a thing, but I never expected to. But I wanted to share with you a very personal way in which your approach to the podcast inspired and motivated.

Me, can I just say one thing?

[Georgia Hardstark]

What?

[Karen Kilgariff]

If you're going to read a letter that's like slightly self congratulatory, you can't skip through the beginning of their part, but it's long. Da da da, you love me. Da da da.

No. Okay, well, I'll read it.

No, no, no, no.

Okay, well I was going to read the rest, so it does look long actually. In an earlyish episode, Georgia was making a T shirt corner update. Karen mentioned how impressed she was. See, this is so dick. By Georgia's tenacity and follow through and actually making the shirts a reality. And because remember I was like, you don't have to be perfect, just fucking do things.

Yes.

Which is my motto in life.

That's right.

Georgia went to express how she just doesn't let the fear of messing up or not being perfect hold her back. She continued to Explain the theory that people who make a quality work often don't even start, much less us finish making things because they're so hung up on perfection and fear of failing. It was a light bulb moment. This described me. I went to school for design, currently work in the design industry, yet have been terrified of creating personal passion projects for fear that they wouldn't turn out. Quote perfect gumption and willingness to start T shirts on this podcast despite things not always being perfect. No shit. Was so encouraging to me. With the mindset of fuck perfection, I successfully created a little bit of jewelry for you guys and all the other Murderinos out there who want one inside the tiny envelopes. I'm passing them to you. And Steven, you get one too. Even though it's weird, you will find a solid 14 karat gold murderino script necklaces. My first foray into making jewelry. I drew the script, figured out how to 3D print said script from a mold, a casting place, made prototypes, then lovingly put each one together by hand. They are all designed and made in New York City. You guys get the first three because you inspired the whole thing. And I want to say thank you. I had a blast.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They learned so many.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I just feel really proud I made them. Thank you all for pursuing what you love and for being authentic and hilarious to you. My sisters and I wish you all the best. Happiness and success. Stephanie of the sisters Gamble.

The sisters Gamble.

You can get it. It's Etsy. The sisters Gamble. G A M B L E P S. Steven, I don't know if you're into necklaces, but I know you could rock it alongside the stash.

Hell yeah.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Hell yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Stephen, you will look so 1975.

Oh. Cause it's gold.

[Steven Ray Morris]

I mean, I do have chest hair.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You have a lot of chest hair.

Live, love, laugh.

Listen, shave your chest hair into a mustache.

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Things are beautiful. That's really lovely. And that makes me really happy because that's so true. Yeah, just fucking do what you want to do. You'll improve later.

It made me really. It made me really tear up and proud of us. Not just because I of us.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We. We said fuck it. Yeah. Did it.

It's funny, those ideas that seem kind of simple for me, they're like just TED talks that I've watched. It's like if you go onto the Brene Brown vulnerability, TED Talk. Watch that. And then there's gonna be a bunch of other ones that are ruining shit, ruining creativity. This, that, and the other thing you can like, there's a whole philosophy of life that you can discover.

Oh, I love that. Yeah, well, that made me so. Thank you, Stephanie.

Thanks.

We gotta. Let's see. My aunt actually turned Richard Speck into the police. Maybe we can save these for hometowns. I work with Tricia Mele.

Oh, wait. That person's aunt turned Richard Speck. I wonder if it's the girl that went to high school with him that saw him in the Town and Country Center. That weird fucking moan Sacramento.

Richard Speck was the one who killed all the nurses in the.

Oh, shit, Sorry. I was thinking Richard Chase.

Oh, is that right? Oh, Richard Chase was a creepy Sacramento.

Chase was the Sacramento, the vampire.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And you're.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's Richard Speck.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, we should.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is Georgia, Karen, Steven, Mimi and Elvis. But we should also give a shout out to the person who made you that cross stitch of the dogs.

Oh, that's right.

And I want to say right now that Elvis is at the doctors because we have a new kitten named Dottie and she got Elvis sick. And I love this new kitten very much. But if she kills Elvis, I'm gonna fucking lose my mind.

How old is Elvis, Georgia?

He's about to be 13.

He's gonna be okay.

Okay. I hope my subject line grabbed your attention. You guys are the best. And make my hour long Chicago commute so much more bearable. I've gotten countless friends and family members hooked into listening by telling them the Mary Vincent and Sarah Brady stories. But anyway, onto my aunt story. My aunt is Kathy o' Connor and she was a nurse at Cook County Hospital in 1966. She always talked about this case when I was younger, but I never realized how much of a connection she actually had. I started reading the book the Crime of the Century, which is about the Richard Specht murders. And he killed what, a bunch of nurses in that nurse. He went into the nurse's dormitory and. Yeah, and one woman survived by hiding. And in the chapter where they talk about him trying to kill himself and then getting admitted to the hospital, I see my aunt's name. Once I saw her name, I immediately went to talk to her and she told me the real scoop. She was the nurse that treated him when he came to the ER that night. In every report you're gonna see, it says that Leroy Smith was the one who saw his tattoo and alerted the police. But after talking with my aunt this week, it was actually her that notified that noticed the tattoo on his wrist from a picture in the newspaper. She then told Leroy and he alerted the police.

Fuck.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

Bitch.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep.

And since this was 1966 and my aunt is a woman, she didn't get any of the credit. Down with the patriarchy, am I right? Now you guys know the real story. All in all, it's fin because Speck was captured and was sentenced to life in prison. But it's still a pretty crazy story and connection. Thank you guys for this amazing podcast. It's honestly made me more just. I'm just like congratulating myself this whole time. It's honestly made me more aware as a person when I'm out alone. Next time you guys are in Chicago, hit me up and we can do a ghost tour. Or you can talk to my badass aunt. Much love. Stay sexy. Don't get murdered. Mary Kay. Everyone in Chicago wants to give us a ghost tour.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It must be a thing.

Well, because they have HH homes. They have so many mobs.

The mobs.

All that alcohol and stuff.

Okay, well, listen, we're going to read some others that we. That's what the hometown murder episodes or the minisodes basically are for those of you who don't listen.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, clearly.

Yeah, we have to do. We have so much ketchup email.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But I don't. I feel like we don't have time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Because we.

We also. I think maybe we should do. We should do it next week, too. We have to talk about the R. Kelly sex cultivly. It's crazy because I read the Buzz. The buzzfeed article this morning. It's so much. There's so much detail. Like, it'll take us. Let's talk about it next week.

Okay. I have like a list of things I've been meaning to talk about, but.

But that one is especially interesting because what really freaked me out is R. Kelly is touring. He is. Even though he was he. So he was acquitted for 14 counts of child porn.

He married Leah when she was 14 and he was like 20 something, 30 something.

And then there was a song called Age is Just a Number.

Yeah. Which is like, no, that's not true.

But also when you start reading these accounts and the way he's keeping and controlling these, uh, it's unbelievable. And he's just. And he's like on Fallon and he's like, you know, why are we being in someone's funny video?

Or whatever, But I think you're okay with these people. Chris Brown. I want to. I know it's dated, but I want to call that motherfucker out. Why does he still have a career after beating the Shit out of Rihanna.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Rihanna.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's because when you make people money, the people who get paid because of being making that money figure out a way to make it okay. And that's what so much of show business is. And because people haven't had a voice before. And what a lot of. Like there was a reporter who had a really tragic quote that was like, this story proves that young black women do not matter to people in this country, which is really true. And it's a thing that, you know, we come up against all the time. When you're in talking about true crime, this issue of the race of the victim and how that story gets treated is a huge problem. And we're learning as we go. But it's nothing that we like. We're just doing our best. But it's a problem on this level. It's a problem, obviously, in the regular media. It's how the story gets presented, where you go, well, this thing happened, but it's okay. And everyone goes, great. It's okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You don't question your immediate thinking, your immediate snap judgment, which I think is what we need to start paying attention to. What's my snap judgment? And then questioning that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because that's my internal bias.

Yeah. That's why you're not ignorant, is you think for yourself. And. And.

And try to keep on thinking.

Yeah. And not shut down, not fight, not fucking absorb, or. What is it called? Take on whatever is being fucking screamed at you.

Yeah, Just like, swallow whatever the story on CNN is or whatever. But, like, actually try to. Whatever. Anyway, we're all doing our best.

Should we get to the murders?

Yeah, I think we should.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's now a Twitter account that keeps track of who went first. I swear to God, the first time I saw it, it made me laugh. Did you make it, Steven?

No, Steven's like, I'm busy with so much of your other bullshit that you guys make me do, but I did.

[Steven Ray Morris]

Use it to look up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

Nice.

Well, we're hiring them instead of you now.

Oh, that's cruel. Who is it me?

[Steven Ray Morris]

Yeah, it's you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, I go first.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And we're back.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And we talked about R. Kelly for way too long.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Never again. Please, can we not just. No, but what's interesting, though, is that there are new Gacy victims that have been identified since this recording. Since 2017, using modern DNA and forensic genealogy, additional Gacy victims have been identified, most notably body five, confirmed in 2021 as Frances Wayne Alexander. And as of 2025, five Gacy victims remain unidentified, with investigators urging relatives nationwide to submit DNA samples for comparison. You can't submit DNA if there's nothing to compare it to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So that's so important.

Right. There's always progress to be made. It's like as the technology grows, people are like, okay, now we know this. Now go back and check that. Do we have something in a file? You know, it's like the yogurt shop murders.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Totally.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so funny that this is 2017, which means we hadn't even heard of genetic genealogy yet. Yeah.

Like, it hadn't started that everyone's hand was on the doorknob.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Remember, they were just doing the thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Where they would be like, this is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What the person may have looked like. That's like genome typing. Oh, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And all they could do is be.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, this is a blonde guy, and it might have looked like this based on his DNA. And now it's like, this is the fucking guy.

This is the guy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I love that. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, should we just get into it? Your story?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, here's Karen's story about Ellen Halbert.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So as we all know, when I'm working and I'm in the mix and in the mix and I don't have a ton of time to do my homework, what do I do? I like to retell you my favorite I Survived episode.

That's great.

Okay, good. Thank God.

No, can we stop for a minute? Karen, I'm gonna need you go outside, take notes.

Stephen, here's what's amazing to me. So this one I remembered, and we've actually talked about it very lightly, but it's one of my favorites. And when I went to rewatch it so I could just base. All the information is from this woman who's. It's her story. I'm taking it directly from the I Survived episode. This is basically like, if you're driving, I'm telling you, and I survived, so you don't have to watch it, because that's exactly what everything I'm talking about I got from the show.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I Survived.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I tried to watch it, actually, recently.

It's hard.

Yeah, it's hard and it's fucked up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So I haven't watched a lot of these until.

What I love about it is electrifies me with people sitting there telling this thing that we only talk, talk about. Third, fifth hand, you know, so far.

Away, so distant, because we don't have the explanation of the victim. Because they're dead in most cases.

Yeah. And These are people who got through it and turned around and were like, this happened to me. It's not my fault.

I got through it.

I'm not, you know, I'm like, here's. And it's amazing. And they're 80% women. And the women who are on it, I would say 80% were raped in some way and left for dead in some way. Then there's just some man who was like, well, I took my tractor out.

Well, there was one real. The one I watched. The only episode I watched. There was a guy who was in Haiti after.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And there was an earthquake and he was trapped in the hotel elevator that fell upon him for like 80 something hours. Yeah. And it was incredible.

Yeah.

But other, you know, he was there to fucking help people. So it's not like he was like, I hiked into the forest.

No. And look, their survival stories are important too, but it's. It's interesting to watch. If you're interested, watch it because you'll see the difference of somebody that's like, he held a knife to my throat.

It's like they should make two shows. And one of them is these stories of getting lost and, you know, be on your boat or whatever and earthquakes. And the other should be. It's like kind of of paying tribute to women and men who have been attacked.

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

Well, I mean, they can do what they want.

Yeah.

As long as they keep doing it. So I have these things to rely.

Upon, not to talk down.

Look, hey, listen. Okay, so this is what's amazing about this is it's season two, episode ten of I Survived. It's the same episode as our friend Sarah Brady, who was pregnant, nine months pregnant, who got attacked by the female f. Fake pregnant girls.

This was like the best episode you've ever seen.

The best episode. My favorite. My favorite girl. Well, this woman is on the same episode as her.

That's insane.

I was thrilled. It was like a star sighting for me. Okay, so this is. This is Ellen Halbert's story.

Okay.

Okay. This takes place outside of Austin, Texas, in an affluent area, I guess in the Hills in 1986. September of 1986. So Ellen Halbert is in her 40s. She's a wife and mother. She's having a run of the mill morning. She's reading the paper. She's drinking her coffee in peace and quiet. Her husband is out for the day, golfing, and her son is at school all day. So, you know, she eventually decides to go upstairs and take a shower to get ready for her day, she goes, she takes a shower, and when she gets out of the shower, she grabs a towel, wraps it around her. She's walking over to the closet to get a robe when she notices something in the corner.

Oh, no, no, no.

And what's in the Corner is a 5 foot 11 man standing, holding, she says, the largest knife she's ever seen up above his head, dressed like a.

Ninja, looking you like you'd be like this. My brain isn't working.

She said she laughed out loud because she couldn't figure out. She said she thought it was a joke. Couldn't figure out what was happening.

I have chills right now.

Yes.

It's like seeing a ghost.

Yes. But like. And also it's that thing where, you know, sometimes I get. I have like those weird floaters in my eyes where every once in a while I'm like, is that a cat?

You're having a seizure, Karen.

Cat seizure. Which is like some weird thing passes in your eyeliner.

Yeah, definitely.

You don't turn your head and expect to see a huge cat standing there or what?

I mean, but that's full body. Yeah, you expect to see like, oh, weird. I might have.

She didn't expect anything. She didn't even see anything out of the corner eyes. She's just getting out of the shower. Regular day.

Okay.

Horrifying.

Everyone is. Is gasping in their cars right now.

Also his in this ninja outfit, if you're not familiar, every part of his body was covered. It was black pants, black shirt, head wrap. He's also wearing gloves. So it's just eyes and a knife. Basically. In the corner of her bathroom. Okay. He screams, get on the floor. Anne comes at her and they start to, as she says in the episode, Tussle, which is the cutest and also reminds me of the movie out of Sight with J. Lo and George Clooney.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ugh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That scene in the bathroom, those guys.

Anyhow, so he pushes her into the bedroom and he backhands her and knocks her onto the ground. She gets up. He does it again. She gets up again and sits on the edge of the bed. And because she says she. Because she's basically naked except for this towel, she pulls her knees up to her chest to like try to get covered in as small as she can. And he walks over and drags the knife across her feet. And he says, I just want you to know that my knives are much sharper than yours.

Oh, my God. Did he cut her feet or just kind of was like threatening her?

It says she said drag Across, So we don't know. So I think she'd say cut.

Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, you're right.

He tells her to look down and close her eyes and not to look at him. And then she does it. He takes his ninja mask off his face and wraps it around her head as a blindfold. And then he says, it's a shame you can't see me. I'm half black and half white, and I'm a very handsome man.

What a weird power move.

Yeah, for sure. He starts asking her how much money she has. She offers to drive him to the bank. She says she'll give him everything she has in the bank. You know, she's bargaining, obviously. She says, let me write you a check. I'll give you everything I have. He says to her, you're gonna have a bad accident, lady.

Oh, my God. Yeah.

He holds the knife to her throat. He binds her ankles and her hands behind her back.

Can I just also say that if someone either lets you see them when they're attacking you or says to you what they look like, then I would be like, oh, shit, I'm not getting away from this. To identify him.

That's right.

Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah.

I think that's very realistic.

Fear.

So he starts to explain to her what his deal is and basically says that he's been hiding in her attic for two days. So he knows that the husband is golfing all day, and he knows that the son is gone all day. He knows no one's coming for her. He knows he's not gonna get interrupted. And then he says, I'm going to rape you. She begs for mercy as a Christian woman. He says it doesn't matter what he does to her because no one's ever gonna catch him. So he says, get back on the bed. And then he rapes her. And when he's done, he goes and takes a shower and he puts his ninja suit back on. No. So she now is so scared that he's gonna kill her, she doesn't try to move. She doesn't try to escape. He cuts her hands apart. He pulls off the blindfold. He shows her a check that he's taken out of her purse that he's written out to the amount of $600. And then he tells her to write his name on the check. Troy Eugene Wigley.

He gave her his full name to.

Write on the check.

What the fuck?

So she writes. Then he says to lay on the floor in the bathroom in the fetal position. And she does it. And she says she Feels the right side of her head explode. And what's happened is he's hit her in the head with a hammer.

Oh no. Hammer is always my nightmare.

It's so gross.

Oh my God. She feels her head explode.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's so descriptive.

And she doesn't know what's going on, obviously. Like that's that thing on that show that freaks me out all the time. People get shot in the head and they're sitting there telling their story completely regular, like it was you or I, and they've been shot in the head. And when they describe it, it's that thing where the. Cuz you don't know what happened. It's like all of a sudden there was a weird sound in my ear. Like the way the. The personal experience. That's why I'm obsessed with that show. It's the personal experience of it.

I don't think I really understand. And that's probably what the show is too, is like I don't comprehend and being blindfolded and how specifically scary that must be. Like, I don't think about that part, you know, where it's like you actually are not aware of anything in your life going on and all you have are your thoughts.

Right.

You don't experience it. I don't think about that. You know, like. Yeah, that sounds. I need to put myself in that position and think about it or.

You don't have to.

Yeah, that's true.

You don't have to.

Okay.

I mean, you don't have to.

Okay. All right. I feel so obligated to put my, my, myself in these victims shoes so I can.

Well, that's good. I mean, it's about empathy.

Yeah.

But it's just. To me, it's also just medically fascinating. Like you would think if somebody got hit. If you got hit in the head with a hammer intentionally. You're not going to survive that.

No.

And people do. People survive all kinds of shit.

Yeah.

Fucking crazy. Okay, so then he stabs her in the left breast.

Oh, no.

So then he hits her in the head again, Stabs her twice in the back of the neck.

Oh my God.

It's gonna get worse.

Okay.

Don't worry. It gets worse. Then he tries to. Oh, wait till you, you stop sipping.

Coffee because I'm gonna spit everywhere.

He tries to stab her in the skull, but the knife won't go in. So he hammers the knife into her. Oh, all right.

I can't do this.

It's.

I also think that Vince is in the other room listening to this song. And he's horrified by.

There's no way he doesn't have earbuds in. Because Vince doesn't like true crime.

True, you're right. He's got those headphones in.

But this is the thing about. And I won't say it again, this is the 19th time I've said it. It's her telling the story.

I know, I know.

She's the one going. Then he. He hammered the knife into my skull. So there's that part of it where it's a person who went through this and came out the other side came out.

Okay. Oh, Jesus.

Then he. One last thing.

Okay, I'm here.

He tries to pull the knife out. It won't come out. So he's shaking her head around your.

Hand movement just now.

Okay. He's trying to get it out. He eventually puts his foot on her head to pull the knife out. She can. She feels all this, but then she starts to go out of consciousness.

Honestly, I'm. I'm kind of getting a little woozy right now, really. Like, I'm sweating a little and.

Yeah, this is bad. This a bad one. So she's going in and out of consciousness. She doesn't know where he is. She looks into the bedroom, and he's standing there with the. And he doesn't have the ninja outfit on anymore. And he screams, put your head back down. So she stops moving. She's like. And he comes and he pulls her wedding rings off. So she's like, oh, he's gonna kill me for sure. She's freezing cold. She's lost so much blood. But she knows he's gonna kill me, so she has to do something. So he walks away. Once he pulls those rings off, he leaves. And she doesn't know where he is, but she decides she has to. This whole time she's been in the bathroom. She's like, I have to get out of here. So she's. She pulls herself along the ground out of the bathroom, through the bedroom, and pushes herself down a flight of stairs to get downstairs to the phone.

Oh, my God.

And she gets to the phone. What drove me insane when I watched this for the first time. She called her parents? No, but I don't know if it's because it was 1986. So maybe the 911 system wasn't in place entirely.

Yeah, maybe it was, like, so rural. Or maybe her brain just wasn't functioning correctly and the only phone number that could come to her was her. Her family's, like, childhood home.

That would make Perfect sense.

I remember mine still.

Oh, you gave the area code too.

Shit. Well, whoever call someone. No, don't call that. Can you bleep out part of it?

Stephen, we're so proud to know our own.

I know that. We give out our Social Security number.

Okay, so basically she goes out of consciousness for a little while. The next time she remembers anything, she heard her father scream. He came in with the EMTs. So they all found her kind of together. They load her up and she hears two EMTs talking over her about how she's not gonna make it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that's in her head. She's like, I am too going to make it. That's when she, like, turned.

Fuck yeah, girl.

It's so awesome. And she's just basically like, this man is not gonna take my life from me. It's not happening.

That is amazing.

So they get her to the hospital. She has so many stab wounds. She needs over 600 stab.

Oh, my God.

I think in the end she ended up she. He stabbed her over 30 times. He was 18 years old. Troy Wigley was arrested at the bank trying to cash the check that he forced her to write to him. He's convicted of aggravated robbery. He's sentenced to life in prison.

Oh, thank God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I looked up his name. I looked up her. I looked up a bunch of stuff to try to find out what that was about because it sounds like one of those things where if they didn't have evidence here or there, they were just trying to get him on something that stuck, blah, blah, blah. But to me, it's so insane. If she's been stabbed multiple times, why aggravated robbery is what he actually gets convicted on.

Right. Because attempted murder for some reason isn't treated as murder.

It's not murder.

Right.

That's why it's not treated as murder.

No, but that drives me crazy.

I know, but it's not.

I know, I know.

They have to be two different things.

I know.

I mean, they just do, but. So she makes a full recovery. It takes her years of pain and hard work. She said she spent a lot of time in denial about what happened to her. She spent months crying. Obviously, who wouldn't? She had multiple surgeries for all of her wounds. She developed a lot of stress related illnesses that lasted for years because of the trauma. Her marriage crumbled. She was left without a job or money. But she was determined to come out on the other side stronger.

What an amazing woman.

So she realizes she has to get help, so she gets counseling and she Joins a victim support group.

Amazing.

And she decides that her first goal that she has to set goals for herself so she can recover. Like she has to make it a step by step process. So her first goal is she's gonna release all the rage and anger that she has about what happened to her because she realized that's how she's gonna get better for herself. And then she starts to speak out for victims rights and what needs to change in what she calls our offender Focus criminal justice system. In 1991, she's appointed by then Governor Ann Richards to serve on the Texas Board of Criminal Justice. And she did it for six years.

Holy shit.

It was an unpaid position. So while she was there, she started and it went from part time to full time. And she just started doing all kinds of research on the Texas criminal justice system, on victims rights rights, on rehabilitation for prisoners, as opposed to just punitive lock them up and throw away the key. In 1996, both the Texas Corrections association and the Texas Crime Victim Clearinghouse established awards in her name to recognize her work on behalf of crime victims because of her tireless advocacy for rehabilitation of offenders and her dedication to the victim's rights. In 1995, a 500 bed female substance abuse treatment unit was named after her. In 1997, she won the National Crime Victim Service Award, the highest federal award for service to victims. In 1909, she was named one of Texas's Women of this century.

Holy shit.

And in 2001, she was the mediator for a Court TV documentary called Meeting with a One Family's Journey, which was nominated for an Emmy in 2002.

How have I not watched that, that.

Court TV? Maybe it's just old.

Yeah. Yeah.

And Ellen Halbert is presently. Well, presently at the time of the article that I was reading, so might not be right now, but she is the director of the Victim Witness Division at the District Attorney's office in Travis County, Texas.

What an amazing human being.

Isn't that nuts that I. Yeah, I'm.

Trying to focus on that part instead of the other parts because I feel.

I think that's the point.

I feel nauseous, like in a whole, like. Because it's so funny how when it's a survivor, I feel like we've. I think we're both in the mindset that, like, don't get too disgusting and graphic when it's someone who's died, but when it's a survivor, you can explain everything that happened because they survived that.

Well, because it's her story.

Right.

So it's the way she tells.

And she wants to hold that way.

Tell it the way she tells you.

Totally, totally. Yeah. That's how she wants it to be told.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So, yeah. That's insane and amazing and what a fucking inspiration and badass motherfucker.

Yeah. She's rad.

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was incredible. Okay, we're back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Karen. Wow. Any updates?

The only update is that Troy Wigley remains in prison. He was denied parole last year. His next review is. Was in 2027. And I mean, this era of me just repeating I survived episodes. Although I kind of love it because it, for me, I think it turned a corner for me in terms of how much better it felt to tell a story like that. And I think that it's interesting. Like, it's like, so we'd been doing this for like a year or so, and suddenly it's kind of like, I don't want to talk about those things anymore. Those hard ones.

Totally.

And then like, oh, I love this show. And I can just retell, like, Ellen's story from I Survived. She tells it so beautifully, obviously, and it's her story. But to be able to basically be like. And she lived and she fought and she, you know, then gave back to women is like such a satisfying kind of new version of storytelling.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. You needed some hope in your true.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Crime rather than just like, the bleakness.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Like, for example, the story I'm about to do that has stuck with me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Will never think about Girl Scout camp again without thinking about this story.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Same.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's just so heartbreaking.

It's time to listen to Georgia tell the story of the Oklahoma Girl Scout murders.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Uh, mine isn't so good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Mine is not so positive. All right. I'm not gonna tell you the name of it because you're gonna fucking. Oops. You're going to know it pretty quickly. And.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

June 12, 1977, nearly 140 Girl Scouts arrived at Camp Scott. Here we go.

Amazing.

The Oklahoma Girl Scout Murders.

This is so fucking awful.

Yeah. And there's a lot of stuff I didn't know about it. I think I've kind of known the murder part, but didn't know what came after it. So they arrive at Camp Scott, a sprawling, heavily wooded property southeast of Locust Grove in northeast Oklahoma. And the Girl Scouts had been coming to this spot every summer for 50 years. Three months before camp was supposed to start. What?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry. That idea. 50 years of historical 9 to 11 year olds in the woods.

Yeah.

It just immediately made me go, like, there's somebody that knew they came back every year. There's somebody that like knew the, knew they would be there at that time.

Yeah. And I went to Girl Scout camp in a situation incredible. Like probably exactly the same setup as this story in this camp. So I can picture exactly what happened.

Sorry. I just remembered when I was doing. Remember when I did that Casino gig with Julian McCullough? It was in Oklahoma.

Yeah.

The woman who, who was the booker for that casino, which was the best gig. It was so much fun and I'm so sorry, I can't remember your name off the top.

Yeah.

I will get it. Eventually drove me by the street you turned down to get to this girl's gas camp, which is now closed, I believe.

Yeah.

Or maybe they turned it into something else. But we drove all around where she was like, you want me to show it to you? And I was like, yes, I do want you to show it to me. But we couldn't. It was, it was like too far. She was like, it's basically over there because it's the middle of, you know, big flat.

I think there's like a long walkway. I think that's called Cookie Lane. Three months before camp was to start. I think they're having like all the counselors come and learn what they're going to be doing. April 1977, a counselor at Camp Scott had found that her tent had been ransacked and her donuts were stolen. And in the donut box, in the empty box was a note warning that three girls would be murdered at the camp in the future.

No.

Yeah.

I feel like I'd never heard that before.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Everyone wrote it off as a prank until. So June 12, 1977. First official night of the two week stay at Camp Scott. The night is a big thunderstorm, so they don't have their usual activities. Everyone kind of just hunkers down into their tent tents. So they had like, it was like the canvas tent material, but. But like a wood floor. Yeah.

That's actually when I went to camp.

That's what the tents were like. Yeah.

They call them cabins.

Right. That when I went to Girl Scout camp, it was like that too. And you're like shitty cot, bed and stuff. Yeah. With your itchy. What's it called? Sleeping bag.

Yeah. It's all very uncomfortable. Like it's fun at first and then you're like, I. My bed is way better.

Yeah. And taking a shower, you're only allowed 30 second showers. Yeah. I think there was probably a drought at the time. And so they timed the showers and they literally shut off 30 seconds. It must have been like 45 seconds or something like that still. Jesus. They're like we're teaching you how to conserve water, but it's like teaching you.

How to be dirty.

Yeah, I hated it. So they hunker down for the night. It has no lights in any of the cabins. They just have flashlights. So tent eight is known as Kiawah. And in that tent usually it was four girls to attend. No counselors in any of the tents. The three friends are Lori Lee Farmer, she's 8, Doris Denise Milner, who's 10, and Michelle Gousset, who's 9. They're all from Broken Arrow, Oklahoma, which is a suburb of Tulsa and Kiowa. Their cabin was located the furthest from the camp counselors tower tents. It's about 86 yards away and it's partially obscured by the shower for the camp. So it was like the most remote cabin.

And 86 yards is like almost a football field.

Is it?

I didn't know the football field's 100 yards.

Yeah.

So it's like that's so far away.

It might be feet. I, I heard I was one of those things where like in different articles I read different things. Oh, okay, yeah, yeah.

That happens all the time where you're reading this exact same information, but that happens all the time where it's like is this person's name Jerry or James?

Right.

But it just changes per article.

Or someone in Reddit is like this.

Is wrong but I wouldn't be, you know, the way those things are like set up to make them more like in nature.

And 86ft is still a long way off from responsible. Not even responsible 9 and 10 year old, but there's probably 16 year old girls who are counselors. So it's. And you can see like they have a layout online to show exactly where it is and it's absolutely on its own. So. Okay. So that night it said there's a book called in the camp called the Camp Scott murders by C.S. kelly. He says that two counselors had been frightened by two men at the camp that night. And some campers said they saw a man in army boots behind a tent. There's so much pre.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

At 1:30 in the morning, someone hears moaning out near Camp Kiowa. Everyone's in their tents. Carla, a camp counselor, she checks out the noise and described it as a low guttural moaning, but it would stop whenever her flashlight came near. Also around 2am the tent flap of tent seven is opened. Three of the girls inside are sleeping. But the fourth girl stated that she noticed a beam of light moving around the interior from outside with the silhouette of a large, large figure behind it. And then she says the figure moved off toward tent number eight, which is.

Kila Nora just came back from camp.

Your nine year old niece.

Ten.

Ten year old niece.

I mean, this is, this is rough.

Can you imagine? Okay, well, imagine getting this call, your sister getting this call. Don't imagine it.

But no, I imagine things like that all the time.

Yeah, I know. It's so hard not to.

That's like the. Isn't that just the standard thing of like. Oh, yeah, for a while. I told you for a while I couldn't stop doing it. I finally had to call my sister and I was like, I just can't stop imagining something. But my sister goes, oh yeah, I.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do that all the time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I do it all the time. And I was like, oh, okay. She's just like, too bad. That's how it is.

That's when you love a child. That's what happens.

That's what, that's part of it.

I get it. So. All right. Moaning sounds are heard throughout the night throughout the camp. And around 3am A girl in the Cherokee section across the wards heard a scream coming from the direction of Kiowa Cabin 8. And here it says it was located about two city blocks away and she heard moaning. A girl in another cabin also heard a scream. And the scream, the cries she said, sounded like Mama, Mama. Someone yelling, mama, Mama. I know. The next morning at 6am June 13, a camp counselor's on her way to the showers and she stumbles upon a horrific scene at near tent eight. How old? She's probably six. It's a camp counselor.

Oh, a camp counselor.

Sorry, I didn't hear that. So the night before, somewhere between 2 and 4 in the morning, someone had cut his way into the tent here. It gets horrible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He bludgeons and rapes Laurie and Michelle. They had been struck and killed in the tent while they were sleeping and they had been bound and then they bound or the person bound and gagged Doris and took her outside, raped and strangled her as well. So then the two girls who are in the tent are like stuffed into the bottom of their sleeping bags and their sleeping bags are pulled to where Doris is on a path about 150ft away from the tent. So all three girls are left together on like a trail. Gousset and Farmer sleeping bags had their bodies and were inside. They had bloody Bed sheets that had been used. The killer tried to wipe down the blood that was on the floor of the cabin, which is so weird. And they also found a roll of black duct tape and a flashlight the murderer had discarded.

I was thinking like, was his blood in that blood and that's why he was trying to clean it up?

Who knows? Yeah, yeah, there was bloody bed sheets. It seemed like after the attacks, he tried to cover his tracks. Yeah. Which almost seems like he was panicking.

Well then, hey, don't leave your flashlight section.

Yeah, it sounds like he was panicking. Maybe can't realize what he had done, tried to fix it, you know. Okay, so four days later, so police come, they, you know, they fuck, they clean up the scene. And four days later, you know, there's this insane manhunt that starts like the biggest manhunt in Oklahoma history. Four days later, police find sunglasses belonging to a Camp Scott counselor and a boot print that match the one found at the scene of a crime in a cave near the camp. So they find that, and they also find a message written on the wall in one of the caves that says the killer was by fools. And then the date, 6, 1777. They also find tape, plastic bags. Plastic from a garbage bag similar to that wrapped around the flashlight found next to the girls. And a newspaper from the same edition as the piece discovered in the flashlight left next to the girls. And they also find two photos of women. The photos are determined to be from the wedding of a prison guard. And they're traced back to a man named Gene Leroy Hart who had been working at the photo lab in Granite Reformatory and had developed the photos of the wedding of the prison guard. When he was serving time for kidnapping and first degree rape convictions in 1966, he had these photos of these women for some reason, left them behind and they were able to trace them back to him.

Okay, but they. So that means he developed these pictures because it was his job at the, at the prison. Yeah, but those pictures were never given to the prison guard.

He probably made copies of them for himself. Maybe there were two pretty women and he wanted to keep the photos of women.

But it's not. The prison guard is in the clear.

Yeah, it's not the prison guard. Yeah. So we'll talk about Gene Leroy hart. He's a 34 year old Cherokee Native American. He's 5 foot 10, weighs about 200 pounds. He's pretty built. He's like a thick dude. He's got black hair, brown eyes. He's born and raised in Locust Grove, which is right next to the camp. He was a high school football star. He was bright and popular. One of his teachers said he was just wasn't the kind of kid you would have thought would have turned out bad. But he was an immediate suspect at the time of the murders. He was on the run from police because he had escaped jail. In 1973, he was 22 when he was arrested and accused of abducting two pregnant women from a Tulsa club, raping one of them. And he pleaded guilty and was sentenced to three concurrent 10 year prison terms. Which is 10 years, as we know.

Three concurrent 10 year terms is 10.

Years, not 10 years exactly, which is absurd. He's paroled after. For raping and kidnapping two pregnant women. He's paroled after 28 months. He's arrested again in 1969. This time he's charged with four counts of first degree burglary. Pleads not guilty. He's found guilty. And for this, this and his past crimes, then he's finally sentenced to a maximum of 305 years in prison.

Jesus.

So, you know, that judge probably was like aghast that he got out so quickly for rape and kind of threw the book at him.

Maybe, I'm guessing maybe the only problem is that if he was set up for the first one, then his.

I don't think he was.

That's the only problem. Well, I know you don't think he was.

Well, he pled guilty to that.

I know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Lots of people did that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know, I know. So he had grown up a half a mile north of Camp Scott. There were other suspects, including a convicted rapist named Bill Stevens. A couple who knew Stevens said he borrowed a flashlight that matched the description of the wife left in the crime scene a few days before the murder. And he showed up with what looked like blood on his boots. He told them he had experienced car trouble in Locust Grove. He denied everything. He said he hadn't been in the area and. But a scout at the camp testified that she had seen a man who looked like him at the camp. But they still focused on Hart. The manhunt would go down as the largest in state history. It took an entire year to catch him. He was just cave to cave, house to house on the run. So they found him in April 1978. He had been hiding out in the area. And each cave released, each cave had clues and evidence related to the Girl Scout murders. So they, you know, confirming to police that he was their man. They also, they found a mirror and a Toy pipe which another counselor testified had been taking from her to tent. He went to trial for the murders and faced three counts of first degree murder. He was acquitted after just five hours of deliberation. So this whole community of people, and so many people in the community rallied behind him and thought it was a setup, that the evidence had been planted, that he was a good, you know, a good kid. The of course Cherokee Indians, not of course, but they backed, they didn't, they didn't come out as saying they thought he hadn't done, but they said they were giving him money for his defense to support him because as an American and Native American, they didn't think he would get a fair trial unless he had the money to represent himself. Which obviously is true. But they said specifically this isn't. We're not saying we think he's innocent or guilty.

They just wanted him to have a fair trial.

Exactly right. So.

Because probably in that area, the go to thing is if something happens, why don't you go look on the reservation? Why don't you go look at a Native American?

Exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And all the other suspects that they had and that are still around were white. So they just went out. It seemed like they went after him. Yeah. But he was acquitted. Everyone in the courtroom cheered, which if you read articles, the three families of the three killed girls were just so devastated when people were cheering that he got off, you know, know. And the jurors ended up saying there were too many loose ends, too many things didn't add up. One juror said none of us knew whether he did it or didn't. We were shocked that they didn't have more evidence than what they had, so they just couldn't convict him. But because of his previous jailbreak and his earlier crimes, he was taken to prison to serve the remaining 300 years of his previous rape and brutality burglary convictions. So he's taken to prison anyways. Three weeks later, in 1979, at 35 years old, while jogging in the prison yard, he dies of a heart attack. Some people think he didn't do it or that he didn't act alone. There's physical evidence left behind in the crime scene that was recovered during the autopsy that indicates that two offenders were involved in the crime, including two different knots being used to tie up the cross girls, which I think is obvious. Always kind of a weird sign. Right. And the girls were separated and died in different manners. Evidence presented at Hart's trial that was used to rule him out included a footprint in the blood of the floor of the cabin that is a size 10. Hart's feet were closer to an 11 and a half. There's also a fingerprint on the flashlight found at the scene that wasn't Hart's, which I don't think is that weird. You know, it's not like one person would have held that flashlight, period. You know, there could have been a.

Lot in the life of the flashlight.

Right?

Yeah, exactly.

Then a bunch of DNS DNA tests have been done on biological evidence from the crime scene since the murders. Throughout the years there's been nothing conclusive that has come. Although in 1989. So of five aspects of DNA tested from the scene, three matched some bodily fluids that were taken from harm heart. Only 1 in 7700American Indians would match the samples of that fluid. But because there were only three instead of five matched, their results were officially deemed inconclusive. But an analysis of sperm samples showed that only 0.002% of the population met the characteristics contained in the evidence. And Haart was included in this. Wow. Yeah.

So those numbers are way huger than 1 in 77,000 or whatever.

And if they. That technology in 1979, maybe he would have been. That would have been enough evidence for the jury. They kind of went on all circumstantial evidence because they had to. Because that's all they had. Right. Which, you know, it's almost like if they could have waited to have. You know, a lot of times they'll wait to have more evidence to bring him to trial. I don't know.

Yeah, but you can't wait years.

Yeah, but he's in prison anyways.

Yeah, but it's speedy trial no matter what.

True. And the families wants justice. Yeah.

You can't be like, yeah, we'll cross our fingers that good science is coming also. Because back then, I think they had no idea the kind of forensics that were gonna eventually exist.

Sometimes they're like. Like in the 80s, I feel like they are finally like, well, this new technology is coming out. A lot of times you hear on like forensic files, let's wait until that technology has. You know, every. Every year I feel like there's a new way of testing some fluid or some stain that they weren't able to do before to extract a different strain of DNA. I don't know if I sound like. I don't know what I'm fucking talking.

About, but I mean.

Yeah.

Pretty standard.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not like science. I think this. That's what we do. We're just basically repeating what we watch on Forensic Files and other shows that.

Tell us about DNA, vague postulating. And, you know what's so interesting is in this trial, they used things that are now discounted, like hair samples. They found a hair that they said matched him. There was another thing that they found that they said matched him that now wouldn't be admissible in court.

Is that a fiber thing?

Poly fibers? Yeah. That now would never be admissible in court. Yeah. So it's. Yeah, it's still kind of weird. Let's see. Members of Hart's Native American family also accused the police of going after Hart because he's a Native American. Many people said that the sheriff of town was really vindictive because Hart had made him look bad for escaping twice. I just spit. And being on lamb so long. He was on lamb for four years, which makes the sheriff look really stupid. So he tries to throw the book at him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And a former prosecutor tried to turn the killing and Hart's arrest into a position as a state attorney attorney general and to write a book about it, so. For monetary gain as well. So that's kind of their proof that he was railroaded.

Yeah.

So after he died, authorities didn't pursue that many other suspects after the killings of. And I want to say their names again because, you know, they're kind of ignored there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Laura Lee Farmer, Doris Denise Milliner, and Michelle Gousset. No other suspects were really pursued or arrested. And then all the parents went on to do all this, of course, victims advocacy. They were all, you know, they all are interviewed and ended up being these incredible people and doing good things afterwards. But when the sister of Laurie, when she went back to school after the murder of her sister two years after and after he had been acquitted, Hart had been acquitted. She wrote a school. And this is just so sad to me. She wrote a school. School paper. And in it she said, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Except for my family.

Oh, no.

I know. And that's the story of the Oklahoma Girl Scout murders. Isn't that sad?

It's so sad.

These little girls.

Also, to me, it's just like that crime. This is all I think about. Who knows what really happened. Like, the idea that someone hides in caves when they're on the lam is the perfect way to set somebody up. To put shit in a cave.

Go find a cave.

Why would you. This is like Jack the Ripper stuff. Why would you write on the wall. If you did this thing, you would cover all your tracks. And get the fuck out.

Yeah.

You wouldn't go writing on the wall bye bye motherfuckers or whatever. That's just with a date, putting the date, a date.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And like. Yeah.

And unless you were taunting the police.

Unless you were taunting the police or unless the police were trying to set somebody up to perfectly match what he'd already done in that kind of making a murderer way, which is like, we don't like you. We don't like your type. We're gonna take care of business.

Yeah. And we've been trying to find you. We don't have any more budget to put into this. But if you're the guy, child murderer and rapist, then we can put all of our resources into finding you. It's the only problem.

I was just gonna say the only problem that I. I mean, obviously, obviously the thing that makes me upset about that, then if that is what they're doing, if their agenda turns from finding the person who did it into getting the person that has shamed them or whatever fucking problem there is, then we still have a person who stabbed three 9 year old girls with a fucking knife and raped them walking around the world. That's the problem to me.

Yeah. It's one of those cases where I don't know if he's guilty or not. But I could argue either way that the evidence was planted in the caves or he was taunting them. Either one is plausible. And then arguing. I hadn't thought about what you said, which is, did he not commit those rapes? If he committed those rapes, to me it's obvious that he was also capable of this crime. And I'm leaning more towards him having it. Being more than one person who committed those crimes. Because of the ropes being different knots. Because of. Yeah. Them being separated and being murdered in different ways. You know, two of the girls were immediately knocked unconscious and left in the cabin and one wasn't. You know, it's weird.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's all different.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like mos.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And people argue that. That how would, how would one person be able to handle these three girls? Which I think is a bullshit argument because two girls were unconscious. But not only that, we know that these predators can scare especially small girls into obeying them or else.

Hell yes, Richard Speck.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There were.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was eight, I believe, off the top of my head, eight nurses, fully grown women who he got to all stay in a room while he took them out one by one, raped and murdered them. And they can't. Like the woman who was hiding was just like you don't understand. It was. It was. He had a gun and he kept being very soothing or whatever. So like that being able to control people when you are the attacker is. I love when people argue that shit where it's like what are you fucking talking about? We're not sitting. Those people weren't sitting on a couch drinking coffee casually. They were.

They said if you scream, we're gonna kill your family.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Yes. Like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or we're gonna. As simple as that.

If you scream, I'll shoot your friend over here. That kind of stuff.

I mean I hate that argument so that I think you can't really. But other little things like this different kinds of ropes. It's just.

It just feels like if there's ever a murder that should have been solved.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, three 10 year old girls at girl Scout camp, they should have fucking figured out the best way to figure out who did that.

Well, I feel. And they're also doing more. They're continuing the DNA testing. So as it does get more advanced. They're trying.

Case is still open.

Yeah. And they are like sending different kinds of like the new swabs they can actually test. They're still doing that. So there still might be an answer one day.

Don't you think it's possible now? You know I love to devil's advocate and I love to go like what is the thing that isn't being thought of or something.

Yeah.

The idea that he's jogging in jail and dies of a heart attack at age 35.

Yeah.

Is interesting to me. Not that isn't possible. And there's some people that have congenital heart problems.

That's what they said. You know he's got. That runs in his family. He's really out of shape. But 35 definitely.

Then why is he jogging?

Yeah.

Oh, he's gonna. You're gonna. Now you're gonna get it all together once you're in jail.

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know what? I got it. I'm gonna lose this last 20 pounds.

That's definitely a good argument. And it's the thing of like if that DNA does come back to him, which it kind of seems like it did in these other ways, people are gonna say, well it was planted. So I think unless it comes back as someone else doing it, no one's ever gonna fully believe that he. And conclusively believe that he was the killer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

But. But then hearing that he got acquitted is just so if you believe it was him is so heartbreaking. And I think his Family. The families all believed it was him.

Of course they did.

Yeah, they wanted.

But then, but also it's that it makes me think of the Memphis, the West Memphis three.

Yeah.

When you have the perfect person who did it, you want it to be over. Yeah, you want to be over and.

You also want to show everyone that. Or the, you know, the police force and the FBI was there every, you know, it was a huge manhunt for a year. You want to show that you have done your due diligence and you've caught the bad guy. Everyone can stop being afraid because can you imagine you're. For a year, this person who has no problem raping and sodomizing a fucking nine year old is on the loose. Yeah.

In the neighborhood.

Then I, you know, you have to look at all the photos of the three girls. They're just these sweet baby angels, like young sweethearts. And then I look at the photos of them with their siblings and it's those poor, you know, I feel so bad for the victim, but the siblings too, you know, the rest of their lives must have been so horrifying.

Yeah.

It's not something you ever get over.

Right?

Especially then you go and have children and you see your own 9 year old daughter and, you know, how can you imagine someone hurting that person? What a fucking monster.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They've got to figure out a way, Minority Report style, totally. To figure out who these people are. Conclusively, I feel like that's what I feel like instead of making for profit prisons, maybe people, it should be like, can we just actually focus on. So that when these people exist in society, we figure out a way to find them and make sure they don't do this to people?

Well, yeah, we brain scan them. And that brain scan tells us what they're capable of, what they're lying about. Even if they're a sociopath, you can still see that. Like what neurons fire when they're lying. Listen, if they have a memory of this crime.

If their brains are see through, like fish from way down deep in the deepest depths of the ocean.

What are their brains made of? Are they made of gold? Goldfish Crackers?

Are they just a ton of tiny knives in there?

If there are tiny knives and it's a tiny murderer, is there a tiny murderer in the brain controlling it with controls?

If there is, let's get rid of those people. Let's put them all on some kind of leper's island.

Great.

This has been a serious waste of time. Thanks, everybody.

No, it hasn't. Maybe we'll change everything. It'll change nothing.

No. There's lots of people working hard to change things. I think for sure. We hear from people all the time that are like, I'm going to fucking criminology school.

I'm a victim's advocate. Yep.

All the time. Yeah, it's very cool. And I think like that. Yeah, it's that idea that instead of letting politics get in the way and money, let's. Let's catch child murderers, let's catch adult murderers.

Let's like, let's catch child murderers before they child murder. But then we're getting into some really addictive. Right.

Well, that is what minority, Minority board is about.

Right. Which is like.

That is great graphics.

What's the ethnicity about? And Tom Cruise at his best before the fucking downhill. You guys who are younger don't remember, but Tom Cruise was a heartthrob.

You don't remember? It was 2010. Seven years ago, though. Oh, my God.

That's seven years ago.

Seven years.

I know, I know. I mean, as time goes by.

Okay, we're back. What are the updates for this story?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, so reporting from 2022 says that DNA tests done by the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation strongly, quote, strongly point to Jean Leroy Hart as being involved in the murders. This has led some outlets to declare the case solved. But this DNA evidence is ultimately described as inconclusive, which is so frustrating. Yeah. In 2022, just ahead of the 45th, Ann Hulu and ABC News released a four part documentary series entitled Keeper of the Ashes. The Oklahoma Girl Scout Murders. It's anchored by actress, singer and Oklahoma native Kristin chenoweth, who in 1977 was a young Girl Scout and planned to go on this camping trip.

Oh, I didn't know that.

Isn't that wild?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She wound up getting sick and not being able to go.

That's incredible.

I know. I haven't seen it. I'm definitely gonna watch it.

Yeah, me too.

In 2023, Cherokee novelist Faith Phillips revealed that a former county sheriff told her he'd obtained a confession in the case. It reportedly came from an incarcerated man named Buddy Bristol, who said he'd been at the campsite the night of the murders with several other men. And Phillips, ostensibly quoting her sheriff source says that Bristol claimed, quote, one of the other men murdered the little girls and the other men who he named are still living in the community today.

Oh, my. I mean, that's bombshell information. And like, how do they figure that out?

I don't know. It's so different than what the possible DNA says. Like, it's almost like. Makes it more convoluted when it's like, it could be this, it could be that. It's like we want a definite answer, and there's just nothing to give.

It feels like if the. And correct me if I'm wrong, but like, the directive when you told that story was all about how Gene Hart was, like. It felt like they were like, this is the guy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The end.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So that idea that, like, those same people who did that then are gonna come back and be like, hey, look, we found some DNA that proved right.

Totally.

Where it's like, yes, we want to be able to trust that source, but that is the source that did it in the first place.

And what is strongly pointing to the person and being inconclusive mean? Like, those two things kind of don't go together in any way.

It feels almost like they're floating the gossip of, like, it's still him, but.

We just don't strongly. Meaning what? I want to know more about that.

I mean, it'd be interesting to know that. It's so frustrating. And also, that is just. It truly is such a nightmare story.

Just heartbreaking.

Well, let's wrap this show up.

Let's do it. I. I love that this is when I got do My Sweet Dottie.

Oh, it's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like a doy's origin story. I know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Dottie's, like, five and fluffy as shit and loves her Crunchies and cat grass, and she's just the absolute sweetest cat I've ever met in my life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She has always had, like, that good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Kind of of like, classic cat personality.

Yeah.

She's like, I'm not gonna. I mean, look, you know, I'm Mimi's number one cat.

I know you are, but Mimi's spicy.

Mimi's spicy. And Dottie is sweet.

Dottie is so sweet. She, like, won't even smack Cookie if.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He'S trying to play with her, which he always tries to play with her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And she's like, I've never played with you. This is not going to happen. But I won't hit you.

Yeah, I'll be patient, but I'm not doing it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Get away from me, please.

That's our girl. Okay, so originally, this episode was called.

The Freshest Recording, which I love, but.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If we were naming it today based on something we said in this, perhaps we would call it Morning Positive.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Meaning. Yeah, I am not Morning Positive anymore.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know who this Georgia was.

But, I mean, it was Almost like, could I be different now? It's like me every year in high school being like, I'm gonna be shy this year. It's like, sure, I. I'm going to, like, the morning.

Right? I'm gonna get stuff done like people do.

Can you imagine if that's what we started doing, where I was like, ring, ring, 10am no. Or I wonder if, like, if we got it at the beginning of the day before, like, the day went awry.

I would love to do it earlier than we do now because it's so disarming to drive here and home in other people's rush hour for the actual jobs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So it'd be great if we could.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do it at, like, 1:30 or 2, but that would never happen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We would just keep pushing it and pushing it and, like, it just.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It wouldn't happen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What if instead, we get you a briefcase?

Remember?

[Georgia Hardstark]

A backstory?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I have one.

What? Well, should we do the thing we.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Said we were gonna do six months ago and get briefcases to bring?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or I'll get one, too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can you find one?

Can we? And we'll.

Okay, tell me when you have yours and I'll bring mine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, great.

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Back to the titling. We could also do the title, Sincere vague postulating, which is what George talks about what we do on this podcast.

[Georgia Hardstark]

As she tries to remember a description of a show she likes. It's a really good synopsis of this show.

I stand by.

Yeah.

Or we could do our own phone numbers because we're so proud to know our own childhood phone number.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Numbers.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If you want to dial my childhood number, I can tell you what it. I can tell you both of them right now.

But does your dad still use it?

No, because he's on his cell phone. There's no landline anymore.

Uh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, let's keep it a secret.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

You gotta keep some stuff to yourself in podcasting.

No, I want to lay it all on the field and then run into the sea.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's been this week's episode of Rewind.

We'll say goodbye from 2017.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I gotta go to work.

Okay. That's right. You have to go to work. Oh, my God. How is it weird? This is coming out. Out in two hours. If Stephen can.

Yes. Sorry for the delay. I'm sure we're gonna get. I'm sure Stephen's gonna get and already has gotten lots of messages when we.

Were texting yesterday about, is it okay if we do it in the morning? And Stephen's like, yeah, but it's gonna be late and people get upset, you know, we should let them know. And then we. And then I said, okay, just tell them it's your fault, Steven. Tell them that you did it.

Stephen.

It's all me, Elvis. Can't meow on this one.

I know.

Where's the kitten?

So you can hit it in the face?

I know. I was gonna.

Where's that kitten?

I was gonna make her meow. Listen, I love her. Fucking Dottie. She's an angel baby.

Once Elvis is home, hold good thoughts in your mind and prayers for Elvis, for his quick recovery. So you can come back and eat cookies and meow with us soon. And until we see you again, stay.

Sexy and don't get murdered.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Bye.