Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 79: Sharpest Needle In The Tack

Summary

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My Favorite Murder “Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 79: Sharpest Needle In The Tack”

Release Date: January 14, 2026
Hosts: Karen Kilgariff & Georgia Hardstark

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Episode Overview

In this special “Rewind” episode celebrating the podcast's ten-year anniversary, Karen and Georgia revisit and provide new commentary on their original 2017 episode “Sharpest Needle in the Tack.” The pair reflect on changes in true crime coverage, share updates on the infamous cases they discussed (including the “Collar Bomb Heist” and the “Shoe Fetish Slayer”), and spotlight critical lessons learned through feedback from listeners and advocates. The conversation is full of their trademark humor, tangents about anxiety and sandwiches, cult-classic quotes, and thoughtful reflection, especially around how their approach to true crime has evolved.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Looking Back: Ten Years of MFM

• Karen and Georgia open with astonishment at their decade-long podcast journey (01:09)
• They joke about their signature tangents: “Is every single episode for a minimum 49 minutes.” — Karen (02:06)

2. Tour Announcements & Listener Community

• The hosts announce 2026 Australian and American tour dates, riffing comedically on playing the Sydney Opera House “in the bathroom” (03:13)
• Georgia recaps stories about young listeners, including a nine-year-old naming her baseball bat “Ted Bunty” (05:20)
• They reflect on the evolution and age of their audience, pondering the impact on former child listeners, now in college: “Isn't it crazy to think about how old those children ... are now?” — Georgia (18:51)

3. Listener Corrections & Growth on Victim Blaming

A significant part of the episode spotlights feedback from the Coastal Horizons Rape Crisis Center (06:15) about previous episodes unintentionally perpetuating victim blaming—specifically advice about “covering your drinks.”

Notable quote:

“The onus is never on the victim to stop an assault. We need to have a culture shift where instead of telling victims what to do or not to do, tell perps, hey, don’t rape people.”
— Karen, reading Coastal Horizons feedback (06:15)

• Karen and Georgia reflect on growing out of their “80s” mindset:
  “But it’s such a good point that it doesn’t matter. You can be the most aware, you can be the most responsible … something can happen to you.” — Karen (07:07)
• They emphasize how meaningful it is to apologize, correct, and do better after being called out:
  “You can walk past that to, like, apology and correction and then do better moving forward.” — Karen (20:38)

4. Tangents & Comic Relief

• Run of silly side notes about anxiety from thinking about stardust and the universe (13:24)
• Jokes about butter and cheese hoarding (45:27, 48:03) and Olive Garden brunches (46:43)
• Endearing pet stories: Georgia’s cat Elvis’s health scare and the introduction of kitten Dottie (16:40, 17:04)

5. Story Recaps and Deep Dives

A. The Collar Bomb Heist

Georgia’s Story (27:43–61:15)

• Georgia recounts the bizarre “collar bomb” bank robbery of Erie, PA, where pizza deliveryman Brian Wells died after being forced to rob a bank with a bomb around his neck.
• Details from the original case and follow-up documentaries (“Evil Genius”):
  • The bomb, scavenger hunt-style instructions, and the eventual revelation that Wells had been “double crossed” by accomplices.
  • Marjorie Diehl-Armstrong, Bill Rothstein, and Kenneth Barnes’s twisted involvement.
  • “I just want to know Brian Wells more like—I feel he probably wasn’t the sharpest needle in the tack.” — Georgia (56:02)
  • Updated information: Jessica Hoopsick admitted to setting up Wells for money and drugs (61:43)

Formatting highlights:

• Memorable comedic riff on the “dum dum lollipop” and the ‘Guess’ T-shirt (31:49–32:29, 60:44)
• Candid acknowledgment of the trauma in watching the incident video and the weight of covering such cases (36:09, 38:47)

B. The Shoe Fetish Slayer

Karen’s Story (62:59–94:25)

• A comprehensive retelling of Jerry Brudos’s crimes in Oregon, his fixation with women’s shoes and underwear, manipulation of victims, and family life facade.
• The psychological roots tied to childhood shame, isolation, and fetishization.
• “So let me put this away real quick. Yeah. He has it set up where it’s like, this is my man cave. You’re not allowed down here.” — Karen (76:07)
• Discussion of how Brudos’s story is paralleled in “Mindhunter” and Ann Rule’s book “Lust Killer.”
• Reflection on female complicity, societal attitudes (diagnosing “transvesticism” as a crime), and the limits of insanity defenses in the era.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On podcasting style:
  “We absolutely assure you that almost nothing is pre written on the show. Even the things that are supposed to be.” — Karen (11:47)
• Karen on learning from criticism:
  “It’s like, you don’t have to sit in that. You can walk past that to, like, apology and correction…” (20:38)
• Georgia on tangents:
  “Please, doctors, tell us how to do this podcast.” (102:02)
• Karen on podcast growth:
  “We have earned it...We’ve paid our dues and then some.” (96:09–96:26)

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Segment Timestamps

• Tour news & community talk: 02:20–04:52
• Listener feedback on victim-blaming: 06:15–08:17
• Marjorie Diehl-Armstrong/collar bomb heist story: 27:43–61:15
• Key twist ('dum dum' lollipop, shirt, victim complicity): 31:49–56:02
• Evil Genius update/Jessica Hoopsick confession: 61:43–62:28
• Shoe Fetish Slayer (Jerry Brudos) story: 62:59–94:25
• Discussion of serial killer psychology/societal context: 72:43–90:42
• Mindhunter & pop culture context: 95:30–96:09
• Closing “happy things”/pet updates & career reflections: 96:41–100:41
• Episode wrap-up/title brainstorming: 100:48–102:20

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Reflections & Tone

• Authentic, conversational, humorous: The episode is peppered with throwaway jokes, self-deprecating humor, and pop culture asides even in the midst of recounting brutal crimes (“You know, that beautiful Peter Gabriel song, Salisbury Steak…” – Karen, 10:20).
• Thoughtful self-examination: Particularly regarding listener feedback on victim blaming and true crime responsibly.
• Sense of community: Both in the hosts’ friendship and their openness with listeners—sharing emotional pet stories and the joy of “happy things” (96:41).

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Summary for Non-Listeners

This “Rewind” episode is a dynamic mix of true crime storytelling, self-deprecation, and thoughtful reflection on growth, both as podcasters and people. Karen and Georgia re-examine infamous cases with new details, acknowledge the podcast’s stumbles and learnings, and embrace feedback from experts and listeners. The episode is as much about the journey of navigating ethics in true crime storytelling—how to grow after getting it wrong—as it is about the crimes themselves. Longtime fans will appreciate the callbacks and evolution; new listeners will gain insight into the show’s unique blend of irreverence and sincerity.

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Enduring advice:
“Stay sexy. Don’t get murdered.” (103:01)

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Transcript

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is exactly right. Did you know Tide has been upgraded to provide an even better clean in cold water. Tide is specifically designed to fight any stain you throw at it, even in cold butter. Yep. Chocolate ice cream. Sure thing. Barbecue sauce. Tide's got you covered. You don't need to use warm water. Additionally, Tide pods let you confidently fight tough stains with new coldzyme technology. Just remember, if it's gotta be clean, it's gotta be Tide.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What happened to her?

[Karen Kilgariff]

From the studio that brought you weapons.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Here comes a terrifying new vision.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What was our daughter doing in the.

[Georgia Hardstark]

3,000 year old sarcophagus? Lee Cronin's the Mummy only in theaters April 17th. New trailer online now. Hello, hello and welcome to Rewind with Karen in Georgia.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Every Wednesday we recap our old shows with all new commentary, updates and insights. And as of this week, we have been doing those shows for 10 years.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. Happy 10th anniversary to us, to you guys, to everybody. Hey. Today we're recapping episode 79. Aww. A little baby. Which we named Sharpest needle in the tack. Which is definitely something I said.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I bet that really sounds like a Georgia ism.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It does.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This episode came out July 27, 2017.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, so let's listen to the intro of episode 79.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hi.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Listen to my favorite murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is the podcast where we tell you true crimes and horrible things that happen to good people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And a little about ourselves sometimes when we.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, just a tad. Just a touch about ourselves when we.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Feel like going on a tangent, which.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is every single episode for a minimum 49 minutes. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But it's sprinkled throughout.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Get ready. Oh, yeah. Also, we don't just keep it at the top. We'll put it in the middle. And then also at the end, I.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mean, listen, look, look and listen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, so we should probably start with the biggest announcement and the one that people constantly tweet us about and ask us about. Thank you for your interest. We are going on tour again and we are now going to announce the dates of our Australian and American tour. Are you ready to hear what we're doing?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, Australia, you know, already. But we're adding a couple shows actually. So New Zealand, Auckland is. There's still tickets available. It's on Wednesday, September 16th, and then September 6th. Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's Wednesday, September, September 6th, beginning of September.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then we're adding shows in Melbourne and Sydney because we have two shows in each and they sold. Or one or they sold out. So September 10th in Melbourne at the Comedy Theater.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Melbourne.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Melbourne. And September 12th in Sydney, Australia. There's another show at that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

At the fucking Opera House. At the Sydney Opera House, dude. Side room.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is that true?

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're in the jazz room? No, I have no idea.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And we're actually in the bathroom. We're just going to be in the bathroom.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's right. If you want to come and talk to us at the Sydney Opera House, we're going to be loitering in the women's bathroom from 9 to 11.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's actually a chamber orchestra that night, but we'll be in the bathroom. Yes. I'm really excited about a lot of these cities and I won't say which ones. I was about to say which ones I'm most excited about.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That would be great for you to not say what you aren't looking forward to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm not gonna do that. Okay. What else do you have?

[Karen Kilgariff]

You got nothing?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I have a thing or two.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's hear it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. Well, it's all just like my rambling, but my brother was on a jury where someone died. It was like a race car, guys on the street and they crashed into a car and killed someone. And as he was telling me, my seven year old nephew was like, yeah. And like giving me details. So I was like, okay, he knows about it. How cute would it be if I had I recorded him talking about it in hometown. And so I was like, micah, tell me what happen? And he was just like, well, someone died. It was so depressing that I was like, well, I'm okay. Yeah. Not playing that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's sad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't think seven last night at a show I did, someone's like, oh, my nine and ten year old nieces love your show. And I was like, that's chilling. I don't think that's good at all.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nine and ten year olds turn this off.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But there's a couple listeners, some awesome.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Murderinos that were also backstage. One of the guys, I'm sorry, I can't remember your name, he goes, that's around the time I started getting interested in true crime. And then I was like, oh, okay, okay. Then I don't feel as bad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's true, I guess, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. I think for me it was sixth grade. So you know, kids are very advanced.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it's like, even though it's not true crime, it's like the revving up of it. The things you're suddenly really interested in, like scary movies and bad things. And actually speaking of children, this girl named Sarah hall tweeted us a photo of her nine year old sister and she said she just named her own bat. She, I guess was in baseball. She just named her own bat Ted Bunty. All on her own.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I was like, well, that's fucking incredible.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's hilarious.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, George so loves a pun.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love a pun. And I love a nine year old. You know, I love baseball.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, it's everything you love.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Love everything.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If only that little girl had a vintage dress on while she did that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Lose my mind later.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, I got a tweet that I found very interesting and it's like this is the kind of, you know, convers that we like to have. It was the Coastal Horizons Rape Crisis center in Wilmington, North Carolina sent a tweet. So they basically said, hey ladies, big fans of your podcast. However, we were disappointed to hear the unintentional victim blaming that took place on the 2020 episode re covering your drinks. The onus is never on the victim to stop an assault. We need to have a culture shift where instead of telling victims we what to do or not to do, tell perps, hey, don't rape people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, drug is the number. Alcohol is the number one drug used to facilitate sexual assault, not roofies in parentheses. Not saying it doesn't happen, but misinformation can unintentionally compound victims trauma. We are a rape crisis center in Wilmington, North Carolina and we frequently hear victims blaming themselves because they, quote, did everything right. My friend watched my drink, et cetera, and they are still assaulted. So just wanted to let you all know, love your work. Which I think is such a good point.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We, obviously, it's not like we need to make excuses, but when we were having that conversation, we were coming from that, that point of view, which is very, for me, it's very 80s of like, you have to, you have to like, you have to be on the.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Lookout at all times kind of a thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Be on the defense and kind of like be aggressively aware and all that kind of stuff. But it's such a good point that it doesn't matter. You can be the most aware, you can be the most responsible, all these things. And then something can happen to you. And we never want people to feel like in any way, obviously that that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Would be our messaging so that they're to blame. Cause that hurt me so much and made me sad of like they come in there and feel to blame. I mean, they didn't cover their drink like we're telling them to do or. But the fact that she said it's usually alcohol. Not. It's just alcohol. It's not like they need to roofie you to take advantage or to assault you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, exactly. It's actually a very common thing that people use all the time. That doesn't make anybody feel that worried in the beginning.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it's the. Yeah. I think also we were having that conversation because it was around the time that that girl. It was that thing that happened in Santa Monica where these women saw a guy put some. A drug into a girl's drink, and they basically. And got her in the bathroom. And we're like, we just saw this thing. So we were kind of going off of that in a way. But, you know, thank you for the correction, because that's a really good point. And that really is, you know, please raise your sons not to rape. That would be great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, that would be awesome.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did you see the trailer for the movie, my friend Dom?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Holy shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. That looks.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're not being paid.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're not being paid. We should be.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I want to see it today.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It looks so great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It looks so good. I love that there's not. It doesn't seem like there's anything about him being an older person and actually committing, is there? That's not what the book's about.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I didn't. I only I don't think it is because I feel like I did read that comic book, the graphic novel.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But I can't remember the end. I mean, it's just the story of him, but I think it's him in high school. And basically when it all started, I.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Think it's going on the idea that you already know who Dahmer is and what he's done. And then so while you're watching the movie, you're like, oh, this is the thing that made it happen. This is the thing that started it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And kind of teenage Dahmer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it looks. And it looks so creepy and so.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Eerie, and it's really ominous. One of the first shots in that trailer is kind of a wide of the front of a school, and it's just kids in kind of like late 70s clothing walking around, and then you just notice there's a guy just standing there staring, and it's really fucking creepy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It almost looks like if Napoleon Dynamite was like a scary movie.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's exactly. If you change the soundtrack to the Napoleon Dynamite, which I love.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When people. I love those. Those I love, like the Mrs. Doubtfire as a horror movie. Have you Seen that one?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Love those.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or the Shining as a rom com. Like a family sitcom?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally. Or like a coming together. What's that? So.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is it immediately Shakira? Were you. Were you singing Shakira?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Probably.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hips Don't Lie.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ymca.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think it's the Salisbury. The Peter Gabriel song. Salisbury Hill. Yes, something like that. Salisbury Hills. Okay. Because I thought saying Salisbury was clearly going to be wrong, so I didn't say it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You were scared to risk it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. I see Steak got you Salisbury steak and all that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know that beautiful Peter Gabriel song, Rolling up on Salisbury Steak. I love that song. It's so like there's those weird. I don't know what instrument it is, but it's like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like he's blowing into a windpipe. Is that a thing? Or like, what was the ones you had to play as a kid? A recorder. I love Peter Gabriel.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There might be a recorder solo at the beginning of Salisbury Hill.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Salisbury steak.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Salisbury steak.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All of that is misinformation. That entirety of misinformation.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wait, what were we talking about?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, Jeffrey Dahmer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fucking Napoleon.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Dynetime.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If you're an editor, if you have the time, if you care, could you please make Napoleon Dynamite into it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I bet you could do a scary.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Movie with a soundtrack.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I bet you could take the trailer from Napoleon Dynamite. Just put all of this. The exact same voiceover and words from the trailer for Dahmer. Just put him in there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So it's like Napoleon Dynamite's mouth is moving in that weird. Like his braces are still on, but they're not.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mash it up. His friend is his friend Pedro. Pedro is the friend who wrote the book. Like, it's just perfect.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's perfect. Did you plan this?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. It's all written down.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, is it? Let me see. Let me see those notes. Oh, man.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nothing I say is ever planned. Obviously, I never plan anything.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We absolutely assure you that almost nothing is pre written on the show. Even the things that are supposed to be.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, like our stories.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think that's all I had. Did you have anything else?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm sure I can. I have other things that I just can't think of. And oh, I keep writing things that I don't like. I'll be like, oh, I should make a note for pre show. And then I don't know what it means. So I have Yan Can Cook written down.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yan can cook, I feel like is from when we were talking.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I was watching it the other night and then I was like, I gotta talk To Karen about this. I don't remember why I would talk to you about on a murder podcast.

[Karen Kilgariff]

About Yan can cook because that guy fucking murders chicken.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That guy's the best. Then I wrote embarrassing illness. I don't know what that means.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's probably Crohn's disease.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And then I wrote Stardust equals anxiety.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you mean angel dust?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know. And I was like, I think I spelled I wrote something wrong. And I was like, I'll remember.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Were you on drugs or drink?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, yes, yes to all.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, always.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, how do we figure any of those things out? You just take some time with it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I don't think we need to. I think as long as I say them. Okay, then everyone knows.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Then if we're standing somewhere and a yang can't cook whatever comes by, we're both going to be like, this is what it is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And Stardust equals Anxiety is probably something really interesting.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, there's a movie called Stardust.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is there?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know, but why would I.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Stardust Memories is a Woody Allen movie. He would give you agita if you were.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, no, it's not that. I haven't watched that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Anxiety.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is it that we're all made of stardust and that makes you worried?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think it's that. Yeah, I think it's that. I think it's that I get anxious when I think of the entirety of the universe, but I don't know how that has to do anything with murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, we talked about that one time. We did, yes. Because I said, oh, it was when I said, did you see that picture from the Hubble telescope that showed universes and balls of gas? And then you were like, please don't do this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So I must have wanted to elaborate on that. And it was. And I was on Drink.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you think there's a movie or something called Stardust that you saw as a child and that you discovered why it gives you so much anxiety?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I feel like trying, just generally trying to figure out worries is a fascinating podcast.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, what are you worried? Isn't there a podcast?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm being sarcastic.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I got excited.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Isn't you go. Isn't there already a podcast like that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think there is, though.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, just being. I think I'm worried about the universe. I can't remember how, though.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I just am. I don't need to explain why people get. Everyone gets it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I hope.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, you need to explain why. If you bring it up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that's really your only. The only thing you bring up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, and I did. Stardust gives me anxiety.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's not an explanation.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The enormity of the universe gives me anxiety.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. Do this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. I mean, I want to ask Steven who's going, but he's not trustworthy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Steven just told me that he keeps getting it wrong, which sucks, because you're a big. You're like. I'm like. Well, Steven knows.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no, he doesn't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm no longer a rock. You were attacked.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You were attacked by that Twitter account who was like, stephen, get it together. You've been wrong three times.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Whenever. Shut up. You know what it is? You know what I realized what it is my brain was doing to me was it's like, Karen, Georgia, Karen. Like, I'm doing that in my brain. So that's why I kept saying you would go first, because in my mind, Georgia went last time, but she went last, last time. So you're not going. You're going, Karen, Georgia. Karen, Georgia. Yes, Karen, Georgia, Georgia, Karen, Karen. Yeah. I'm just. My brain completely just. Just fell apart at that moment.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So what can we do to fix this going forward?

[Georgia Hardstark]

We have two things that people have made us of. How to tell.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like Twitter accounts. No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Remember the things they gave us at.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, like a large abacus? Is Stephen gonna drive around with that in his car?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. We can leave it here, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, your house.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Flip a coin.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or do you think you have it this week?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think it's Georgia. Yeah. Yes. I thought so, too. I really knew that Stephen would buck it up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I want to put him. I want to rake him over the coals.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I needed it. Stephen, you have five chances. You abused three.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I just love the idea there's a Twitter account now attacking you because they're like. Because of the joke.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What's it called again? Who went first? Last.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Who went first?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, well, there was like. They were like, seven, like, five days since accident or something like that. Oh, my God, I love it. They were, like, keeping track. And then it was like, this many days since. Oh, should I give. Elvis isn't dead, everyone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, you should definitely give that up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So last week, I talked about how Elvis was at the vet and how scary it was. Turns out the kitten we got, Dottie, gave everyone a fucking crazy infection. Upper respiratory infection. I thought. I really, truly thought Elvis was gonna die. And I had my cry, and I, you know, apologized to him and held him, and, like, truly. And he's better now. He's on the mend. He's not gonna die. But he lost his voice.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, it's so cute.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You have. Before you leave, you have to see him open his mouth to meow. And nothing comes out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And nothing comes out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So maybe Dottie, do the sign off.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did you see the fan art that people made of Elvis in front of a black background? And it just says I survived on the side. And then in quotes, and it's the first time I saw it in quotes. It says, yeah, so this kitten tried to kill me, dot, dot, dot, or something like that. The first time I saw it, I almost had a heart attack. I was like, if she sees it, she's going to fucking shit a brick.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because it was.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He was still not out of the woods yet. And it was hilariously awful where I was like, I think I'm going to have to ask these people to take it down now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Didn't see. Oh, my God. If he died ever. Yeah. So thank you ever to everyone. They. Everyone was so sweet and yes. You know, and said nice things and reassured me and yeah, he. The vet was like, he's not going to die. Calm down. So good. Thanks. Village vet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Good update.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. All is well.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Positive updates.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hey. And we're back.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We are back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hi. We announced a tour.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Man. We really. To Australia.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know. It's so weird that that was so long ago and we're just gearing up for it in this episode.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's a very, like. I know we've said this and kind of like jumbled our way through it a bunch of times, but it is that time as a flat circle feeling where you're just kind of like, it does not feel like 10 years and then it also feels like 50 years. And when you think, I think back about Australia, it feels like that was 25 years ago. Like, it was such a amazing memory and experience and like, so great. But also so much has happened. It's just so weird.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Isn't it crazy to think about how old those children who we were like, you should not be listening to the podcast when you're nine. How old they are now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. They're in college or close to it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Close to college.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're like super partying seniors.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And that's the age when I hear someone say they have, like a teenage daughter and she's rebelling or whatever. I always want to be like, give her our book or let us let her listen to the podcast. But not nine year olds.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nine just feels a little bit like, let them have A little more of the innocent ears before they have to deal with this shit, if possible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it's hard enough as an adult to fucking to like, understand or to try to wrap your head around true crime.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know. You know, also, this was the episode where we got corrected. Like, one of the first in my memory, one of the first kind of big, important moments in the actual conversation, not just you and I talking, but then getting feedback and engaging with it from the Coastal Horizons Center. And that whole discussion, which I think unknowingly, the way we engaged with that and handled it is the reason we did well with this podcast. And basically it was like, of course we did something wrong. We don't know what we're doing. We're just talking about stuff. And this idea of, like, pointing out a thing that's really important in narrative setting for the way people look at these problems in society is so important. And, you know, it was like, you don't want anyone to think you have bad intentions, but then it's like, you don't have to sit in that. You can walk past that to, like, apology and correction and then do better moving forward. Yeah, right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. I do really like that aspect of this podcast, or us, I guess, is not being like, our antiquated way is the right way and we will fight it to the fucking death. Like, that's not true. We're always all learning and growing, or we should be, hopefully. That's how you like, you know, live a better life, I think. And so I'm glad we did that. I'm glad that they called us out on it, because it's so true. It's like, yeah, we're bending over backwards to, like, keep ourselves safe. And that isn't the problem. Like, we're not the problem.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, but completely. And I think there's the thing, too, of, like, the tone of, like, cover your drinks. It was like, in our desperation to feel like it was our job to warn people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's the line. And then it's like, yeah, don't warn them so much that it's always their fault, their responsibility on them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I hate. Oh, you didn't cover your drink. What? Like, then it's somehow how you're at fault for what happened, which is so not the case. And, you know, that's a really great example that just one person listening hears that and internalizes something that happened to them that they are not responsible for at all.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's pretty incredible.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, then we go from that to an Elvis health scare, which is just like, he was so old, that old cat.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He wasn't that old yet. He wasn't old enough yet. I remember saying to him, dude, just get me to 16.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wait, how old? I thought he was in his teens.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He pro. Yeah, I guess it was like. I don't know. I think it was like 11 or 12 then.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So to me, that's not that old. But no, I guess poor little sweet Dottie just, like, came in with influenza, the Black Death, and made everyone violently ill. Like, no wonder Mimi hates her now. She's like, you almost killed me. But Dottie's made up for it by being the sweetest fucking cat on the planet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, she's very sweet. Also, I think, like, Mimi would have had a problem no matter what. She's just using the flu as an excuse.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. If you're mad. Like, if she had killed Elvis, like, could I have kept Dottie?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, it's pretty. It's heavy to say she killed him. It's like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's the way it all germs work.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Of course. And I'm totally kidding. I would never.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're kind of saying in the flowers in the attic way of. Would you have been evil to that cat because you would always secretly somehow blame her?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know, my friend said to me recently, because Mimi's getting older, she's having health problems. And we were, like, presented with this really complicated way that she could be helped. And I was like, I don't. She's so fragile. I don't think she can deal with it. I don't think she should, like, go through it. And then my friend goes, you'd have done it for Elvis. Oh, like, how dare you? And then she goes, however. Wait, what did she say? She said, oh, you would have pet cemetery at Elvis. So it's not really the same thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, there's nothing like your first pet. It's just a whole different. It's a whole different thing. But, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I'm not. Not getting her taken care of. I promise you this. I'm doing everything I can for her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I feel like Mimi is just the female Elvis. Mimi's been in my. I started reading the book when Elvis and Mimi were, like, neck and neck. It was just like. Then he. It was like suddenly he was at peril. And it felt like Mimi, although in a bad mood, wasn't. We weren't gonna lose her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Of course not. But he'd always been number one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. He really had.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know, I mean, look, it's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, your Firstborn son.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Awesome. Yeah. You know what I mean. Not that I would do anything for Mimi, but it's true. I would. Fucking pet cemetery. Elvis.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's very brave of you to keep friends around her. Gonna be that honest with you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She can't hear anything anymore, so it's okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, that's the thing. Old pets. God, we could talk about it forever.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right. Oh, this story that I did, this episode is just a classic and it's so confusing. The collar bomb heist, remember?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yes, yes, yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's such a, like, all over the place story. I'm excited to hear myself cover it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, well, let's do it right now. Let's get into Georgia's story about the collarbomb heist.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Everyone wants to feel safe in their home.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's why home security from Simplisafe is designed to prevent problems before they start.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Traditional security is basically there to say, hey, someone got in. Simplisafe home security is different because it's built to stop crimes before they start.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Simplisafe offers a double layer of protection. Their AI powered cameras can detect when someone's outside your home and alert live monitoring agents right away.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They can can speak directly to the person through the camera, let them know they're being recorded, alert police, and even activate a siren or a spotlight if needed. One of the reasons I love having security cameras around my house is because Cookie barks at like, everything, which I'm so proud of her. She's supposed to do that. That's like my first line of defense. Then the next one is check all the cameras. If I couldn't do that step every time that she barked, I would be freaking out constantly. Like, I can't imagine not being able to see what she's barking at. She's usually nothing, but what if it is something?

[Karen Kilgariff]

So protect your home with SimpleLife and get 50% off any new system. For a limited time, just go to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Simplisafe.Com fave again, that's simplisafe.com fav and lock in your discount.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's no safe like Simplisafe.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Bye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's a new year and a new you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So to celebrate, why not get a new outfit from Quint's?

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

Check out their Italian wool coats. They look designer, feel luxurious, and are made with premium materials.

[Georgia Hardstark]

By working directly with top artisans and cutting out the middlemen. Quince gives you luxury without the markup.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And like everything from quints, each piece is made with premium materials in ethical, trusted factories. Then priced far below what other luxury brands charge.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They really are premium. I got a cashmere throw blanket from Quintessential. It is so soft, so cozy. I have to like beg my cats to let me use it because they are so obsessed with it and so am I.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The cashmere sweaters, they're now piling up in my room. I have so many. I love them so much.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Refresh your wardrobe with Quince. Don't wait.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Go to quince.com mfm to get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's Q U I-N-C-E.com mfm to get free Shipping and 365 day returns.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

NMLS 696891.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, so I go first. I just forgot. All right. This is the story of the collar bomb heist.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Awesome. You don't know it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't even really know what you just said.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, it's the story of the collar. So a collar bomb meaning like a collar around your neck collar bomb.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is this a woman and her daughter?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. Okay, heist. And I just want to up top say that there is an article called in Wired by Rich Shapiro that has a really good overview of everything that happens. So I used a lot of his information and I just wanted to give him props for that. And it happened. He wrote it in 2010 so there's a little bit of update since then. Great. But so we're in ear Pennsylvania. I looked this up on my favorite murder email to see if anyone had talked about it. And it's from their town. And a girl named Jessica A. Said the winters are terrible and the summers are filled with water sports on the lake and lots and lots of drinking. In fact, you will find either a church or a bar at every corner.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which I think describes the town really well. All right. August 28, 2003 at 2:28pm A 46 year old local man named Ryan Wells walks into a PNC bank in Erie and passes the teller a note. The note says, gather employees with your access with access codes to the vault and work fast to fill the bat. This bag with $25,000. You only have 15 minutes. Then he lifts his shirt to show the teller a handcuff like collar attached to his neck. And according to the note, it's a bomb. Oh, fuck. The bomb's like a DIY homemade device. It's got a metal collar attached around Wells's neck like a handcuff. And there are two. There were keyholes and a combination lock as well as baking timers and two 6 inch pipe bombs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Baking timers?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You mean like the white ones that you turn that your mom's like, you have five minutes, sit in that chair.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love that. It's never used for banking. It's for fucking punished.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Baking.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's for punishing your children.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, exactly. Or just being like, oh, I have to do something in 10 minutes. That's a timer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nobody bakes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That is. Okay. How disturbing as you're that you're that teller. You stayed up really late the night before drinking wine with your friends. You roll in, you're like, I'm gonna power through this day.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I'll be fine. Yeah. Because I'm gonna go out drinking with my friends again. And a guy walks up, I imagine sweating profusely.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And like if a guy walks up to you in your hotel room, passes you a note, you're like, fuck. It's not gonna say like, hey, how are you? Next. I lost my voice. I'm Elvis. I lost my voice. I'm Elvis.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm here to Rick Bl and no, no, no. It's all bad. Always bad with a note. Always bad with a guy that has to pull up a shirt to prove a point.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And he's like, clearly there's something bulging in his shirt collar. And he has a shirt on his.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Neck is really thick.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it looks. I bet it would look like he has like a trache. Tracheotomy. Tracheotomy. Kind of. It kind of looked like that. And he has like two shirts on and the shirt over it. And it says. The shirt says guests. It's like a guess brand shirt.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which just like fits the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Are you being sarcastic?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I fucking swear to God. I fucking swear.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can we stop hypothesizing and let you tell the story?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, please. That's the show.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just the visual of like that. But like the Jerry Rigged baking timer. And then. But there was also a couple magnetic letters from his refrigerator. And I mean. You know what I mean? And a pipe cleaner and some old gum stuck to the.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know who the victim is. I don't know who's guilty. And I'm saying things like that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, it's okay. Cause here we go. Okay. So the teller's only able to give Brian $8,700 because there isn't a way to get into the vault at that time. Like, there wasn't enough people there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So the baking timer goes off, and.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Then you suddenly smell cookies. And Elvis is like, second in line. Hey, excuse me, those are mine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Pulls a cookie out of his neck handcuff and says, thanks for doing business with me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But he does do. And I'm not fucking kidding. He takes the money and leaves. And he grabs a dum dum lollipop on his way out. Oh. Puts it in his mouth.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. So he's not as stressed as. Maybe that's what you would think. Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or he's really stressed and he needs something to occupy him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I relate.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Doubtful, though.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, I just feel like if you think you're about to blow up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And look, I love candy. I don't think it would be.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're not like, I'm gonna blow up. I'm gonna blow up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, dum dums. Oh, my God. You know, when you get these for Halloween, you get, like, 10 of them at a time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You stuff them all in your mouth at once, because then it's like a real lollipop.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I would eat. Just eat it fast. Use the stick as a cigarette.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just stand around, fake smoking cigarette.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Look how good I look smoking guys.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right, maybe that guy needed a cigarette. And he knew that was the closest. He.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's what it is. And he was like, I probably can't smoke around a bomb. Those things probably don't go hand in hand.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There might be gasoline in this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Definitely. I don't know how bombs are made. You pour gasoline on them. I don't know. About 15 minutes after he walks out, state troopers spot Brian Wells. That's his name. Standing outside of his. Guess what kind of car he has. If you get this right, I'm gonna barf.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is it a Le Mans?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, it's that. I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like some kind of pseudo fancy car.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, it's a geometro.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh. Second only to the Yugo.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Bad cars.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's for you young kids. It's just. It's just like the first hatchback, and those aren't cool.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like a Fiat that gave up on itself.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's like an 80s hatchback. But this is 2003. I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So wait, he had a Geo Metro in 2003?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Maybe he was an antique shitty car collector.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you know what he actually was?

[Karen Kilgariff]

What?

[Georgia Hardstark]

A pizza delivery man. Oh, yeah. Okay, so you can see a pizza delivery man having that car.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But the tires have absolutely no tread on them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, they're like all. What's the ones in the back?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, like the replacement tires?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, they're all replacement tires.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're all spares.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, they're all spares.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Four spares on a geometric.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm sorry, we're making fun of this guy, but it'll be okay, and you'll find out why.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's not. Well, we'll find out why at the end. It actually gets really fucking bad.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I bet it gets bad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It gets really bad. Okay. So they apprehend him. They cuff his hands behind his back, and then Brian says to them that while out on a pizza delivery, he had been attacked by a group of black men. Because that's everyone's excuse. Who claim. Who chained the bomb around his neck at gunpoint and forced him to rob the bank.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep. That's how it's done.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He says, it's gonna go off. I'm not lying. He's like, desperate at this point. It's gonna go off. I'm not fucking lying.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can I just say one thing?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. Always.

[Karen Kilgariff]

My first agent in this business who was a mastermind and a genius. One of the first pieces of advice she ever gave me was whatever people explicitly state to you without you asking them is, is a lie. Just immediately reverse it in your head of like, saying, like, if I went to a meeting at a management place and they were like, look, we don't just take whoever and, like, throw it all against the wall and see what happens. It's like, oh, you just take whoever and throw it. Is that kind of thing where you just have to kind of. Why would you proclaim this to me if it were true and I didn't even ask you. Yeah, exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or say, I'm not lying.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That means I'm lying.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Why would you need to tell people that if you have a. A live bomb on your body or that just happened to you?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I feel like probably sociopaths say I'm not lying a lot because they don't expect people to believe they don't expect people to be smart enough to be like. I know that that's a line that people say to get them like. And they just don't think anyone's smart.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's true. I would think that they would be the kind of people who wouldn't say. I'm not lying is almost just like a try. And I don't think they try very.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Much or they know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're so balls out. Yeah. That they're just like, I'm not nervous. Therefore you're never gonna ask me a question in the right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And you asked me. I'm gonna tell. Yeah. Okay. You're gonna believe me. All right. I'm not lying. So the officers call the bomb squad and they take their positions behind their cars. Their guns are drawn. And they leave Brian sitting in the middle of the street, cross legged, handcuffed behind his back, with his bomb around his neck. And he's in the middle of the road, just sitting there. And. Okay, there's a video of all this. And. Okay, I'll tell you in a second.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

For 25 minutes, while news crews, news people are filming there they.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's laying in the street.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's sitting cross legged in the street, kind of like slumped in the street. He's kind of fidgeting and stuff. So they're sitting there for 25 minutes. Then out of nowhere, the device starts to beep, beep, beep. And you see him. It's all on video. You see him kind of look down and start to struggle, like he's trying to get away from the collar. And then it fucking goes off.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And the video. There is video on this. And they don't warn you that they're about to show it. And so I saw it and I got really. And having to look this up and look at video news stuff, I. I just kept having to turn my head away because it's so awful. And he dies.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's horrifying.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So, you know, this guy dies and you see this bomb go off and people probably watching it live and see this happen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I. I'm so surprised.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Okay. He. He looked surprised too, that it was even going off. Meaning I don't think he thought it was real. And it detonates. Loud explosion blowing into his face. He falls back onto the ground. He dies almost instantly. I believe the farm had ripped a huge hole in his chest. Three minutes later, bomb squad arrives.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know. So later, the police search his car and they find handwritten notes that were addressed to the bomb hostage and they say, one of them says there's only one way you can survive and that is to cooperate completely. This powerful booby trapped bomb can be removed only by following our instructions. Act now, think later or you will die.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry. Handwritten notes to this guy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So basically they're handwritten notes to the guy. To Brian.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I thought that meant his handwritten notes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. Yeah, someone else had written these notes to him in his car. So they, the police had caught him. It was almost like a scavenger hunt. But he had to rob the bank, then go to these certain places to get the keys, give them the money, that sort of thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So. But police had caught him in the middle of the scavenger hunt. So they tried to finish the scavenger hunt themselves and find the notes. But someone had removed the remaining notes after Brian had been killed. So they found the places where they were supposed to be, but there wasn't anything else there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, and sorry, was that like the video you watched or whatever? Was that shown live on the news?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It had to have been because people were talking about having watched it. Yeah. Sitting there with their kids probably. And it was at like three o' clock something. So there must have been kids after school watching that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

100%.

[Georgia Hardstark]

How traumatized are those children?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's the worst.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I, I watched it and I was, I am a little up from it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, you can't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it's that kind of. You have to be so careful and paired for. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right. They trace Brian's last pizza delivery on the day of his death, which is when he said he got attacked. They found that his last order was to be delivered on the outskirts of the city at a location ended up being a TV transmission tower where the address was. And they could tell by the scuff marks in the dirt that that's where the collar had been attached. But he was supposed to be off right before that call came in to order the pizzas, which was kind of mysterious. All right then cut to September 20th, less than a month after the bomb killed Brian. 59 year old Bill Rothstein, who was a handyman and lifelong resident in the area, calls 91 1. He gave the operator his address and told him there was a frozen body in his garage freezer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, he told him that. What he. The story. His story was that in mid August his ex girlfriend, Marjorie Deal Armstrong called him and told him she had shot her live in boyfriend, James Rhoden in the back with a Remington 12 gauge shotgun in a dispute over money. And then she asked him to help her clean up and move the body, which he agreed to. And so the body had been in his freezer for five weeks. He also melted down the gun and scattered the pieces around the county. Wow. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thorough.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thorough.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How do you melt down a gun?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't even fucking know. Power tools. I think he was. He was a handyman. Yeah, he's a handyman. So he probably knows a lot about.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He had some fucking welding thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Exactly. Probably put some, like. I don't know, you know, there's some powder you can probably put on something to make it flammable.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, I think I've seen things where if you put Diet Coke on a piece of meat.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, why do I stop it? I got so excited. Isn't that a thing?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It is, but I'm sure it doesn't melt guns. I'm almost positive.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's try it. It.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's see. Stephen.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Stephen, get your gun out. Just shoots both of us. Wouldn't that be hilarious? They told me you. I have it on tape.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's such a weird ending to that podcast because everyone liked Steven. Now I'm wondering, he really didn't like those girls.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Was it just fictional? The whole podcast. Now we have to go back and listen again. The whole thing was a play. And we used to write down all the times we yelled at Steven.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Slowly building rage in Steve.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And you can hear him breathing in the background harder and harder every week.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Meanwhile, he has both hands over his face, laughing like a little bright red little Japanese girl. Just giggling. Giggling.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Steven. Okay. So he tells them he just couldn't go with the final plan, which was to grind the body up. So he called 911. He was afraid of what she might do to him. So he says he was so distraught that he had even considered killing himself rather than turning himself in. And he had written a suicide note in which he said who the body was in the freezer. When he didn't kill him, it says, nor participate in the death. And then the note ended with, this has nothing to do with the Wells case.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

For no reason. Says that in the note because he lived behind the TV transmission spot. Uh. Oh, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, now look at my theory. How it's been completely reversed right in my face.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which is what now this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's the. The first guy going. The victim saying, I'm not lying. And my theory is that's because he's lying. Well, then this guy saying, this has nothing to do with it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Out of nowhere, like he hadn't even been questioned about it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, don't bring it up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, but btw, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So obviously my. What my research reveals is that there's no hard and fast rule about statements. Or is there? Or.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We are not done yet. Oh, twists and turns all over the place. They made a movie. The movie, 30 minutes or less.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That came out like 2011.

[Karen Kilgariff]

My friend Reuben Fleischer directed that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, nice. Well, they think it's like loosely based on this, so there'll be twists and turns. Oh, wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't worry. I haven't seen it, so I don't really know, but. All right, so here's a little bit about Marjorie, the woman who killed her boyfriend. So in 19, she's. In 1994, she's 35. She's charged with murdering her then boyfriend, Robert Thomas. Rob Thomas? Isn't he from Matchbox 20?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm just kidding. She claims she shot him six times in self defense. As. You know how you shoot someone six times in self defense?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Well, just to really finish it off.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just to kill.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's very ocd. She wanted to finish all the bullets in the gun. Right, sorry. This is the same woman who. Who had the body in the freezer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, this is the body in the freezer woman.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is a different relationship.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. Okay. Years before a jury acquits her, and then four years later, her husband, Richard Armstrong dies of the cerebral. Cerebral hemorrhage. Those two words together. Can't. Cerebral hemorrhage. But when he got to the hospital, he had had a head injury. But the death is still ruled accidental and never followed up with by the coroner. Which. Head injuries and cerebral hemorrhaging don't go. That's not a thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They don't go together.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, yeah. Cerebral hemorrhaging means your brain is bleeding, which means someone hit you really fucking hard on the head or something.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Doesn't hemorrhaging just happen though, too? Like the way when people have a stroke or something like that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, I do. I feel.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I. Look, look, look, and listen. Neither of us are going to claim we're right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

My assumption as a doctor is no. I just think hemorrhaging. Hemorrhaging can happen in any kind of a way. It's not specific to. Just like an aneurysm. An aneurysm is when you're like a vessel in your brain explodes and then usually you die.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. So, yeah, hemorrhaging, that sounds right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, please, doctors, please tell us how to do this podcast.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The best way to let us know about Something is to scream at us on Twitter. I just want everyone to know that's the only time we listen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is screaming on with our hearts. We're doctors. Let's see. Death is ruled accidental. So Marjorie is, like, extremely smart, but she suffers from bipolar disorder, and she's found to be paranoid and narcissistic. In 1984, they found 400 pounds of butter and more than 700 pounds of cheese rotting inside her house. Sorry, this is from the Wired article. Can I repeat this? 400. So I think she was a hoarder. So 400 pounds of butter. How much is that? It's so much.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, a pound of butter is the four cubes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay? That's a pound of butter. So she had 400 of those and £700 of cheese.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, that's just a dream come true.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, what kind of cheese? If we're talking about fucking Kraft Singles, it's Velveeta.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If she had it stored somewhere, it's Velveeta. Because you can. You can leave that, like, in a warm room for two years and nothing will happen.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's plastic. Can I tell you what Vince made me for dinner last night? Because I was like, oh, I forgot to tell you this, too. Damn it. Can I get on a gross food tangent, please? Okay, so last night, Vince. Vince brought home. He did the thing of. I've been craving this thing from childhood. And I was, like, playing along, like, I'll try it with you, baby. So he made me a bologna and American cheese sandwich. On white bread.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

With mustard.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I used to have them every single day.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was great. We never had, like. We never got to have any of that good stuff. Yeah, so I had nitrate. So, yeah, sometimes he'll fry up the bologna.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know. But what happened? And this is just. I'm explaining who Vince is on, like, Saturday. I picked him up after his thing, and we were both hungry, and I was like, where should we go? And I always am like, no, I don't want to go there. And, like, we go where I want to go. But he was like. He was like, this place. This place or this place? And I was like, okay, baby, you pick. Which. I was being nice. Like, I'm just trying to not be a anymore.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Good, good. Yeah. Put in that effort.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So we went to the Olive Garden for brunch on Saturday. How do you feel about that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

All I see is, like, a bunch of Italian spices mixed into shit that I don't want there. That's the first thing I think of.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You are 100% correct. He ordered. They had a thing called an Italian Margarita. He ordered it. The guy at the bar was just, like, such a sassy, funny person. And he put it in front of the Margaret. He put a margarita in front of him, and then he put down a little, like, shot glass of amaretto, and he goes, that's what makes it Italian. I was just like, oh, I love you. It was so great. But they have a nice little soup and salad deal anyways, at the end.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Bottomless breadsticks, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Come on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The salad's actually good. On the way out, a girl stops me and she goes, don't I know you? And I did the. Oh, searching for my brain. And she goes, just kidding. I'm a huge fan. So she was a waiter, a waitress there, and she was just, like, really cool.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I got recognized at the Olive Garden.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hell, yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The Olive Garden.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hell, yes. Because when you're there, you're family.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I was family.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Don't I recognize. You're my aunt. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, hi. Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hi.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nice to see you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Carol.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, all right. 700 pounds of cheese rotting inside her house.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. Oh, sorry. Go ahead.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because you can't even get that from a store. It's not like you can go to an indivance, or whatever your local chain is called, and be like, that's all the butter that they have for the month, essentially.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And they. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What's she doing? Do you know how she got it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nothing about it. It's rotting.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can you imagine the smell? Like, does butter even rot?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It does. Like, it turns, but it takes a long time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, you can leave it out on the counter and it won't go bad for a while. I mean, we always refrigerate our butter, which I hate cold butter.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You can put it on a plate as long as it's covered on the counter. What are we talking about?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't fucking know. Someone is dead.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Someone is dead. So many people are.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Okay. All right. So I wrote so in capital because I think I knew we were gonna go on this tangent. So back to. Okay. In fact, when preparing to be tried in the shooting death of her first act, psychiatrists deemed her mentally incompetent seven times before they finally ruled she was allowed to be tried. Which I feel like seven times means you are not ever going to be mentally. And that's such a hard thing to do because everyone's like, I'm mentally ill. That's why I killed this person.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I was trying to get out of it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And they're like, bullshit, but sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They kept on saying she was mentally incompetent and couldn't stand trial. And then they finally were like, wait, no. On the eighth time, she is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, she's better now. Oh, got it. No, but, yeah, that's ridiculous.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Got it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So I wrote. So on September 21st of 2003, Marjorie Deal Armstrong is arrested for the murder of her most recent ex, the freezer guy, James Rhoden.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She pleads guilty, but mentally ill. But she's still sentenced to seven to 20 years in state prison for that murder. Three months after she goes to prison in April Federal of 2005. So I might have the dates wrong. Federal agents investigating the collarbomb mystery. They're still like, what the fuck happened? The handwriting analysis of the fucking notes are baffled. They just don't understand why this scavenger hunt was part of it. It doesn't make any sense to them. Okay, they're called. They are called from the state police officer who has just met with Marjorie in prison. She tells them that the murder of her most recent ex boyfriend actually had nothing to do with money, but instead was part of the collarbone plot. So they didn't even know she was involved at this point.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She just came forward with that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, okay, she says, and she's like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can I just exchange that piece of information for a stick of butter? I just want to put it under my pillow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They only have margarine here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's driving me disgusting. I need some rotten butter.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, what she actually wants, besides just butter, is a transfer from the state pen where she's in to a minimum security spot much closer to Erie. And if they do that, she'll tell them everything she knows. So she begins by telling them that she was not. Of course I'm not involved in any way in the plot. But she admits that she knew about it and that she supplied the kitchen timers. So she's the baker or the punisher of children.

[Karen Kilgariff]

When they were trying to fingerprint that kitchen timer, they were just like, there's no fingerprints, but it is coated in butter. There's, like, so much butter all over it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We need to find the butter culprit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The butter bomber.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Butter bomber. It's even better butter. She tells them that the actual mastermind beholding the whole plot was Bill Rothstein, the dude who lived behind the TV tower who turned her in for murder. But Bill Rothstein had died of lymphoma about A year earlier, in July 2004. So they can't fucking question him. She also tells the feds that Brian Williams wasn't just the victim, but had been in on the planning from the beginning.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The guy that actually blew up in the bomb.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Twists and turns.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, Keep. Keep talking.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So he did. When he said, I'm not lying, he was lying. You were right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, thank God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's why I was like, hold up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That theory was white, right? Twice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, okay. So according to Marjorie, Brian Wells, the victim, had agreed to rob the bank wearing what he thought was a fake collar bomb. The scavenger hunt, he was told, was simply a ruse to fool the cops. If he got caught, he could say, like, well, look at these instructions as evidence that he was only following orders. But at some point, Brian Wells, and you don't hear this phrase very often, is double crossed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The fake bomb is switched out to be a real one, which he didn't know until it was strapped to his neck. They held him down at gunpoint because when he got to the TV station with the pizzas, he realized it was real and tried to run. And they grabbed him and held him down at gunpoint.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, wait, so did he not know? Is it Marjorie? Yeah, Marjorie. And the guy that died of lymphoma, Rothstein. He didn't know them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Before he knew them, they had all planned this thing and agreeing that it was gonna be a fake bomb.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So he drove there as if it's like, I'm delivering pizzas to this place.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right? The whole thing is him being tricked. He was in on that, thinking it'd be a fake bomb.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Got it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They are like, it's a real bomb. Get over here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It all falls together. Because then that fucking dum dum part makes perfect sense.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I think even when thinking. When thinking about the dum dum, the way he panicked when the beeping went off is he didn't even know that it was fake until the beeping went off. That's what I think.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Because you mean that it was real?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, because even him saying, I'm not lying, he's lying. He thinks it's not real. And I think they're telling him this. I don't know why she's telling him this, but I don't believe that. So why. Yeah, okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They strap it to his neck at gunpoint. The FBI had already concluded they had checked out the bomb and that it was rigged. So at any attempt to remove it at all, it would have Set it off. So he was destined. He was going to die no matter what. Then in late 2005, a few months after Marjorie first talked to the feds, a witness comes forward and says that an ex television repairman turned crack dealer named Kenneth Barnes was also involved. Barnes was already in jail on unrelated drug charges. So when threatened with more time behind bars, he agrees to a he would give the full account, blah, blah, blah, reduce sentence. He confirms that Marjorie was. He says, which is what other people were coming forward and saying Marjorie was the mastermind behind the Collarbone plot. He claims she needed the cash so she could pay him to kill her father for inheritance money.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Jesus Christ.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know. In Erie, Pennsylvania, she's just.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's like a black widow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So he sentenced. Devarnes is sentenced to 45 years behind bars, but he agrees to testify against Marjorie. He also explains Brian Wells reasoning why he even got in on the plot for money. He needed the money because he had developed a relationship with a sex worker and he had devised a scheme where he was like, I'm gonna sell crack because I need the money to be with her. I think he was like in love with her. But he had fallen into debt with a crack dealer. It's for love, which is like so sweet. And in one of the articles, it's like he was a drug dealer. And it's like, well, he wasn't. When you call him a drug dealer, you're not. Not, you know, explaining the intricacies, which sounds like a fucking movie.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Look, if you're selling crack to people, you're a drug dealer. It doesn't matter what your motives are.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're correct.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You could be a cold hearted snake. Or you can be.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You are correct.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You could be the most nicest romantic.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Person if you're selling drugs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because also it's not like, oh, he's selling pot, so he's getting 60 bucks a hit. He's like probably making bank.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And these people who are crack addicts are ruining their lives. So he's helping them ruin their lives.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, exactly. Eating and abetting. And then also on top of that, so that he can fuck a lady who probably doesn't give a shit one way or the other about him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. Otherwise she wouldn't be charging him. Probably.

[Karen Kilgariff]

One would like to think that it would go into a Julia Roberts in that movie kind of direction where she then does actually kiss him on the mouth.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. Why am I being romantic about this?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, you probably got involved in your reading. I'm just counterpointing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I Just want to know Brian Wells. More like. Like, I feel he probably wasn't the sharpest needle in the tack. I knew I wasn't going to get that right, so I just kept going with it. You know what I mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was like a straight up Yogi Berra style quote. Calling someone else dumb, like, mixing metaphors.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, man. So, yeah, I don't know. To me, he's the. He's the. He lost the most.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's not some mastermind. He's not like, yeah, he got duped.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Pretty hard for a reason that, you know, he didn't understand was, okay, da, da, da, da, da. He also testified that Marjorie's ex, whose body was the freezer body, was also in on the crime. The reason he had been killed was because he threatened to tell the feds, not because of money. Oh, wow. So that's why his freezer body happened.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When Marjorie took the stand on trial, she's ranting and raving. She's like. She's bananas.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's butter crazy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's butter crazy. She claims to have never met Brian Wills in his. Brian Wells, the victim, even though he testified that she had even measured his neck for the collarbone. The jury didn't believe her. She's voted guilty of armed. Voted guilty of armed robbery. I wrote that. I wrote it. Voted guilty. And I'm like, I'll figure that out once you're there. Instead, I just read it off the paper.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, technically, you're right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Vote. They voted.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They get voted guilty.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Guilty of armed bank robbery, conspiracy, using a destructive device in a crime of violence. She died on April of this year, actually, as 86 years old of natural causes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

86.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So she died in 2017. In April. Whoa. Yeah. When we were just hanging out, thinking anything was whatever. And then she's dying. All right, last part. And this is also from Wired. Retired FBI criminal investigators who ignore the coolest people in the world. I want to have a drink with him. Jim Fisher. This guy thinks that there's no way that Marjorie planned the collarbomb heist. He. He. Based on the FBI suspect profile, which they had before anyone got in trouble for this. He thinks Bill Rothstein was the mastermind. He was a handyman with the skills to create a homemade bomb. And it wasn't about money. He thinks he had never accomplished much in his life. He wanted to show how brilliant he was by, quote, executing a crime that would grab headlines across the globe and baffle authorities for years. He recruited conspirators. He knew he could control and kept crucial details of the plot from them. A tactic designed to further complicate the investigation. Wow. So he thinks he was just fucking with his head. Like, it kind of reminded me of the guy from S Town that they.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I still haven't listened to it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, people who have listened to S Town, this guy was like, this brilliant dude. Yeah, it kind of reminds me of that. In the end, says Jim Fisher, the son of a bitch ended up winning, huh?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, not so much, because I'd never heard this case before.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, but he went.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We are talking about it now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He won by dying a free man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, that's true.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And battling the shit. And they still don't really understand how.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And what happened, which isn't a victory because that just means you went crazy, you victimized a bunch of people, and it doesn't make sense why you did it. Yeah, that's not like, to your genius credit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I think that's fucked up what he specifically wanted, which, again, is not. Not a genius move. It's like, I.

[Karen Kilgariff]

For me, like, the kitchen timer right there proves that he's not a genius. Like, get one of those LED digital readout timers or get the out of town.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, I think what he wanted to prove is he could make a bomb in his, whatever, garage out of anything. You know those people who like to take things apart and put them back together just to see how they work, instead of reading a book and just chilling out, take a nap.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I guess that's true. Well, that was fascinating.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. I say, look at the picture of him sitting in the middle of the road.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Go nowhere near the video of him getting blown up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In fact, I want you to see the picture kind of. Stephen, can you pull that out just to see? It's just this, like, clear afternoon news story of him sitting there. They're not too close.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I can totally picture it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He looks almost like a mannequin sitting there. It's just like this still body, not dead. I'm talking about when he. He's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He was just waiting. So was that the whole bomb squad thing? They were just waiting for the bomb squad to show up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's what.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He was just sitting on the curb.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And they were calling the bomb squad, but also they weren't sure if he was even in on it. So they had this. Their guns drawn on him. Yeah, that one. Go look up the picture. It's like. It's like a bummer. Obviously, it looks like when someone gets stopped at a traffic thing and then they go to arrest him. Yeah, it Looks like that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like he's an unruly drunk driver.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What's the.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you know what his shirt says.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or what says Guess.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that's the guest thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And they think that's part of it, is like Bill Rothstein put a shirt on him that says guess.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's fucked up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow, that's a good one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you. It's so weird because I saw this. Like it was from 2003. I think I saw maybe a City confidential or a 2020, like pretty immediately after it happened. So no one still knew what was going on. And it just stuck with me. And it was one of those ones where I was like, everyone knows this one, so I'm not going to do it it. And then I was like, well, maybe they don't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So, I mean, the one I thought it was, was there's nice survived about a woman who gets home invaded. They. It's her and her daughter, right. And they put a bomb on her and make her go rob a bank.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And she.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And they're like, if you say anything, it's the same exact thing, but she really was, you know, she was a victim and survived it. They get. They end up getting offer. Yeah. Oh, good. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Phew.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know. Okay, we're back. Are there any updates on this one?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I have some updates. So in Netflix four part docu series called Evil Genius, the True Story of America's Most Diabolical Bank Heist, Jessica Hoopsick, a woman who claimed to be Brian Wells's friend, confessed that she set Wells up to participate in the crime by providing his name and delivery schedule to one of the conspirators in exchange for money and drugs. So, I mean, that's just huge. Investigators say Hoopsik was uncooperative after the deadly heist in 2003. They had long suspected her involvement, but didn't have enough evidence to build a case against her. So that's pretty interesting. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And inside job, basically.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. It makes a lot more sense now because the story was just so convoluted.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was crazy. It was like. It was so shocking and insane and on video.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, the video of him sitting in the middle of the intersection.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So bad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so traumatizing. I mean, Jesus, it's horrible. Speaking of traumatizing, we got another your story.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, this one is God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, let's listen to Karen's story about the shoe fetish slayer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, my turn. I don't know what that voice was. This story is. I've been trying to do it for a really long time, but because I've been reading an Ann Rule book about this serial killer. But then I think Frank ate the back half of the book. It turned into a thing where then I had. I was trying to find the book again and whatever.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think we should make for new listeners. Frank is her dog. It's not her boyfriend.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. I have a really nice, nervous boyfriend named Frank.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He doesn't like when I learn things.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He doesn't like when I leave the house. But the first chapter of this book is one of the most hook you in. And you can't stop reading chapters. It's Ann Rules.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know. I've been meaning to read a new one by her submitting.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, this is a great one. I had bought one at the airport on the last tour that was a bunch of different stories kind of all put together. But I realized that. But, like, that's a little bit too depressing because it's just almost like the same thing over and over again.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I like her thoughts on it and stuff.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I think I enjoy, like, the full thing more. But the cool thing about Ann Rule is that she just goes so far into the victim's lives, so you get all that information. So if anybody. If this is an interesting story to you. Ann Rule wrote a book called Lust Killer, and it's about this guy. But this is the best part. So I. I texted Stephen yesterday. I was like, can you please get me a chronology of this guy so that I can get ahead on this story? And so he looked up and found this chronology that was put together by some people in the department of psychology at Radford University in Radford, Virginia. And those people are. Mike Keith, Audrey Mangram. I was gonna say Magnum. Audrey Mangram, Kimberly Mast, Heather McGinn, Ryan Miller, Kristen Pushot, Nicole Newsom, and Vicki Tanner.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A lot of ladies and gentlemen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So many ladies. It doesn't say if they are, like, students. It doesn't say who they are in the department or whatever, but they put together. It's like an Excel spreadsheet of the years and then the significant moments in this guy's life, which is a lifesaver for doing a show like this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I need that so many times.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We need it every GD week.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then said, you have to read 1800 articles to find that, which is fine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And fine, it's good. But then when you have a spine like this. These guys did amazing work. Really good. It's just very great detail work where sometimes when you're reading a story. If you read two articles, the second one contradicts the first one. Then you're like, well, did he join the army or not? Like it's that thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I always am like, well, the first one said this, so I believe it's just the first one I picked to read. It's not like I'm lying about this guy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wikipedia overall. All right, okay, so it's Jerry Brudos, the shoe fetish slayer. You've seen there's 1 million all true crime shows about him. And there's a law and order. That's basically his story. So Jerry brudos is born January 31, 1939.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm sorry, what's his name? I didn't hear that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Jerry Brudos is born on January 31, 1939 in Webster, South Dakota. And it turns out he was an accident and his mother wanted a girl, so they lived on a farm. When he was 5, they moved to Portland, Oregon, and they basically move, it looks like every two to five years, his whole childhood and into his adult life, which sucks. And also it doesn't say this anywhere at all that my theory is that his dad was an alcoholic or somebody in the family was an alcoholic, where they had to just keep leaving town and starting over. But also they, I think he starts. His dad starts out as a farmer and it might just be that they're trying to. He's trying to basically be a migrant farmer and go to the new place.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Where he can make money, follow the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Money, but every two years it's just so disruptive and fucked up, so sad. Anyway, so one day he's wandering around alone at the junkyard when he's five years old as you do, and he finds a pair of open toed spike heeled shoes. And he is obsessed immediately, yes, this is his jam. He puts them on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He probably never sees women wearing them. That's kind of thing where he's from. Maybe like his mom probably doesn't wear.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like that, I don't know. But he goes crazy. He plays with them, he takes them home. His mom finds them and goes berserk on him and is like screaming, whatever. And like never touch these again. You're not supposed to touch. You're not supposed to like this, whatever.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which is a great way to get your kid to be really into something.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, hi. Hi.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We know that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So let's take a five year old and be like, this is forbidden. And then see what happens.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You don't understand why it's forbidden. Yeah, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Eventually he, he kept finding them and like she would take them away from. Finally she burned them to symbolically for him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Perfect.

[Karen Kilgariff]

When he's six, they moved to Riverton, California and he's in the first grade. His teacher wore high heel shoes and kept another pair in the classroom. So he tried to steal them one day so he could take them home. But another kid in the class saw him and told on him. So from a first grade, this is like a very, very early age. He fails second grade, he is diagnosed with measles, sore throat, swollen glands, laryngitis. He has frequent headaches that actually leave him unable to see clearly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So he's got some stuff going on, but also all of those, those illnesses that he has. It makes me go like, were you not taken care of very well?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Definitely.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're not fed well? Did you not sleep? Correct. You know, like, why would you just be constantly sick?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So in 1947, when he's 8 years old, the family moves to Grants Pass, Oregon. And next door there's a house that has, I think it's three teenage girls, right. So they have a little brother and Jerry starts sneaking into that house with the brother to steal these girls underwear.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

First they play in the clothes, then he like discovers the underwear and then he. So it goes from shoes to undergarments. A couple years later the family moves again to Wallace Pond because Jerry's father is getting back into farming and.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And.

[Karen Kilgariff]

When he's going through puberty, his mother is disgusted by anything sexual that Jerry does. You know, if he has a wet dream, she makes him wash his sheets by hand. Oh my God. There's a lot of shaming, a lot of like sounds like verbal abuse.

[Georgia Hardstark]

How to create a serial killer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I mean, so he starts to fantasize that he wants to capture a girl and make her obey his commands and beg for mercy. So when he's around 16, he steals an 18 year old girl's underwear. Then he decides that he wants nude pictures of her. So he tells her that he has found out who stole her underwear and to meet him at his house. So the girl goes over to his house and she is there, she's attacked by a masked man who forces her to take off her clothes and takes pictures of her. And then the man runs away. And then the girl gets dressed and she goes to leave and she runs into Jerry. And Jerry says, I was locked in the barn this whole time. What happened? I just saw a guy running out of here in a mask. The girl Runs away, reports the whole thing to police. So essentially he's trying to. And there was another story, but I could not find it anywhere of him doing that and coming back in and saying that he was his own twin brother.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that. Really sorry. It was like one of the first times he did this. He was really sorry. He basically makes a young girl his age take off her clothes, takes pictures of her, leaves, changes his clothes, combs his hair differently, comes in and goes, I'm sorry about my brother Jerry. I'm his brother.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What a crazy creepy. That creeps me out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so creepy. And of course. And I think that little girl from the story that I remember didn't report it to the police. It was just like this weird fucked up thing. So anyway, I know it's also that kind of indicative of that the sociopathic thing of I'm smarter than everybody. Like, there's no way anyone's gonna find out. Here's my great plan. I'm gonna play my own identical twin.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Insane.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. This is not Full house.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, Exactly. So, okay, so when he's 17, he lures a girl into his car. He drives her to a deserted farmhouse, beats her, and by some miracle, there's a couple that's like, sightseeing out in the country. And they stop at the same abandoned farmhouse and they find. They walk in on what's happening and call the cops. So Jerry claims that he'd also stopped to help the girl because they find him and her and she's tied up. He says, no, I found her that way. I was here to help her. Police don't believe it. And they finally. They talked to him long enough, and he confesses. So he's arrested for assault and battery. And in. They find in his house and in his car, women's underwear, pictures and photo equipment. So soon after his arrest, they send him to Oregon State Hospital, the psychiatric ward for nine months.

[Georgia Hardstark]

How do you think that that wasn't a fucking vacay probably?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A psychiatric hospital back then. What year is it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's 1969, I believe.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, no, it's fire hose.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Bad news. He starts talking to the doctors there about his sexual fantasies, his hatred and revenge. The revenge he wants to take against his mother and women in general. And he's diagnosed with schizophrenia, which was actually a common thing that would happen back then. That. That wasn't actually an accurate diagnosis.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Blanket diagnosis.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly. It was just kind of like, you are. You're. What is that called? I was. I want to say devious. But it's nothing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I was gonna say deviant.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Devious, yeah, deviant. That's it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Deviant. Okay. I was gonna say that, but then you said devious. He's a deviant.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's a deviant. That's what I was trying to say.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Got it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Steven, I love that you looked at me like, can you help me? Will you try?

[Georgia Hardstark]

You said the only word I was thinking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, so. So. And they also. They. The things that he's telling them that he likes, they don't. They don't know how to classify that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's not a thing yet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, exactly. I mean, whatever. There might have been, but they're basically like slap schizophrenia on him and like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Treat him for that, which is probably electric shock therapy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He still graduates with this high school class in 1957.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, so this is the late 50s. It's not even the 60s.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So then he joins the army in 1959. He tells the army psychiatrist about these same obsessions. And the psychiatrist has him discharged from the army. So he moves back in with his parents. Now they live in Corvallis, Oregon. And he has to live in their shed. They make him live out back in the shed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, he's an adult now. Can we please fucking treat him like a human?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or get an apartment?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So one night he's running an errand and he sees a young girl walking by herself. And he decides he's gonna follow her and he. So he basically stalks her, follows her home, attacks her, strangles her until she's unconscious, and then steals her shoes. And that night he slept with the shoes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God, this is so creepy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is nothing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, so he becomes an electronics technician in 1961. When he's 21, he gets a job at a radio station. And that's when he meets his future wife, 17 year old Darcy Metzler. Yeah, Darcy. Run, Darcy. Of course, Darcy's parents don't approve of the relationship because she's so young. And because of that, they're married within a few months of meeting each other.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's how it's like, let's solve this by marrying them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, exactly. Well, it's like you want to get out of your parents house. Anyway, this guy comes along. Yeah, he loves underwear. You gotta get him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So tie that guy down.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Literally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So they settle in Salem, Oregon. And Jerry's thing is he wants her to do all of her housework in the nude. So he can take pictures of her while she's doing It.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's like, I'm sweating.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's like, I'm Swiffering.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And she's so young that she's completely kind of under his control.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. She probably doesn't know if this is normal or not exactly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is now married life. She's, you know, like, I guess this is what you do as a wife. And around the same time, he starts complaining that he's getting migraines so bad that he's blacking out and that the only thing that helps alleviate those symptoms is going on night prowling rain to steal shoes and underwear from local women.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Everyone who's been taking Advil for your fucking migraines, we've got a new solution.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's a way creepier solution. So he would keep all of those trophies, trophies, shoes and underwear in a garage that he had built. It was like a sub basement that his wife couldn't enter into until she announced her arrival on an intercom. He was locked down in this basement. And she'd have to be like, honey, can I bring you some Ritz? Okay, so let me put this away real quick. Yeah. He has it set up where it's like, this is my man cave. You're not allowed down here. So in 1962, they have a daughter, but Jerry can't hold a steady job. They move all the time. They finally settle back in Portland. Jerry becomes an electrician in 1967, they have a son. So two kids. But his wife won't let him in the delivery room when she's having her second baby. And he's so hurt by this, was what this article was saying, or like it affected him so much. That's when the raping and the killing starts.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wait, isn't that normal for back then?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. I mean, I think it's probably. I'm assuming this is his story of him being like. It pissed me off so much, you know, like. Like, that's the wife. Salt.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think that's so normal. I think even when my. In the 70s, when my brother was born, my dad wasn't allowed in there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But this was the wife's decision. This is what they're saying.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So it makes it sound like he was allowed in for their first child and not this. Some weird thing had happened.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, that's why he.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's what he says. Of course it's someone else's fault, but also. So I imagine they've now been married for six years or so. She's probably seen some weird shit and she's heard some weird shit and there's a whole room she's locked out of all the time. So she's probably. There's, you know, like who knows what her state is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She knows him well enough that he doesn't want to go in there for the miracle of his child being born. He wants to go in there for something fucking creepy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, she doesn't trust it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How unnerving.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. Like if I see my husband's face when I'm giving birth, I'm going to cry. I will be barf, barf and cry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'll barf, cry. And then on the table, which is what everyone does, apparently. My friend Michelle Balloon does that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I heard that. It's terrifying. That's the most terrifying part.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, so shortly after that, the childbirth. He claims that he stalked a woman in Portland, Oregon, followed her home, waited for her to fall asleep, broke into her house to steal her shoes. But then when she woke up mid robbery and catches him, he chokes her until she passes out, rapes her, steals her shoes and then leaves.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So then in January of 1968, and this is the woman who Ann Rule's book starts with.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, okay, I forgot about that part.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So she starts with this. The first murder victim, and her name was Linda Slauson. She was selling encyclopedias door to door in the rain in Portland.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And at night. No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This sounds like a horror movie.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Completely. The way this is written. It's like she's trying to decide. She hasn't had any sales, she's just moved out on her own.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's gonna keep trying. Maybe the next one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She like needs the money, she has to eat. Like things are getting bad. And then there's like one last house that has a light on. And she's like, I just want to go home. I'll just try this one last house.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And back then they aren't as scared as we are today. And we were very wary of.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There were so many door to door salesmen and women back then.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And you'd let them in your house. And it was. Yeah. And 90% of the time nothing happened.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. Just a lot of vacuum sales.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. So she goes up and she rings Jerry Brutus's doorbell. He is, you see a picture of him, he looks like a cartoon. He looks like the missing friend on King of the Hill. Like, he's just. He looks like grown up Charlie Brown with army issue black glasses on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, grown up Child brown, just a big round head, like pasty.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No distinguishing features.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A little lumpy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Kind of like almost like a bit of a snowman. Just round, round, round.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love the picture in my head. I never want to see what he actually looks like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just a vicious snowman. Okay, okay. But he, when he answers the door, friendly, nice low key. And he brings, he's. Oh, come in. I actually just was. I really wanted to get a set of those. Act super interested, then explain explains that his. I think he said his children were sleeping. I think that's what his excuse was. Can you come down into the basement? Yeah. So they could talk business down there. Well, she goes down and he almost immediately hits her with. In the head with a two by four, beats her and then strangles her to death.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then did he mean to you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That time, do you think?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was the whole idea because he.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Was strangling until they passed out before. Right. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But this girl comes to his door and then he's like the wife was out and he knew he had time to do whatever he wanted. So once before she, after she's dead and before he gets rid of the body, he takes off her clothes and dresses her up in the stolen underwear that he has in his collection. Then this is bad. He cuts off her left foot and keeps it in the freezer in a high heeled issue. So it's like he has no.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm just processing that. Holy. That is crazy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So then when he. And at some point there, his wife came home and he went back upstairs and like ate dinner with the family. I believe I read that in the Ann rule book, but I, I'm almost positive that that's happening. He. He basically had family interactions like right after doing this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Super normal. Well, probably as normal as he is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, he's probably always coming up from that sub basement a little bit sweaty.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So later in that night, he rolls her in a rug, drives to a bridge, pulls out all this stuff to make it look like he got a flat tire as almost like safety. And then dumps her body in the river. So then in July of 1968. So that was January. So six months later, Stephanie Vico is reported missing from Portland. And then in November the same year, Jan, Susan Whitney is reported missing from Portland. Jan's 23 year old college student at the University of Oregon. Then in March of 1969. So about six months later, a woman named Karen Sprinkler, who was a 19 year old college student, goes missing and when the police take the eyewitness account of Karen going missing, two young girls tell the police they saw a large man dressed as a woman on the parking lot garage roof where Karen's abandoned car was found on that day.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If you see a picture of this guy and then you picture him lurking around like a parking structure dressed as a woman, it's very scary that it's this scary. It's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Anyway, it sounds like Norman.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Norman Bates.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Just like his mom kind of a thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, yeah. Creepy because probably from a distance you're like, oh yeah, there's, there's a woman up here on the same parking. You'd be, you'd feel. I think that's part of what's so sinister to me. You're lured into safety of like, oh, that's the woman, just like me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm fine. I could see myself doing that completely. For sure. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So a month later, a woman named Sharon Wood is attacked in a parking garage at Portland State University. She fends off her attacker by biting his thumb until it bled. And it of course turns out to be Jerry. Once she does this, he beats her unconscious. But then a car comes, so he has to run. So the police get the report of this, make no connection to the other parking garage attack. The next day after that attack, Jerry sees 14 year old Leanne Brumley. He tries to abduct her. She fights him off and escapes. Good deal. Day after that, a woman named Linda Dawn Saley is reported missing. Her car's found abandoned in a parking garage. The police realize now that they're dealing with a serial killer. So the next month, which is May of 1969, a local fisherman discovers Linda Salee's body in the Long Tom River. It was weighed down by a car transmission. And then two days after that, Karen Sprinkler's body is found 50ft away.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So that's obviously his dumping ground. Karen was also tied to an old engine, which is the reason it kept her submerged for a long time. And he, he, this is bad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He cut off her breasts to keep his souvenirs. He also placed a bra from his collection of undergarments over her mangled chest. Oh, my God is the way they worded it. Yeah. So this guy is basically berserking. He's killing. He's trying to attack women almost daily. Killing people. And then these bodies are coming out up of when he. Like it's just all going faster and faster.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Like he started and then was fucking on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. And Then anytime he can't, it, he can't, you know, someone gets away, then he has to do try it again the very next day. So it's like, wow. So the same month he starts calling dorm rooms at Oregon State University to try to arrange blind dates with the coeds.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What the fuck?

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it works?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Uh huh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What does he say?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know. I want to know. Know how he.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean I would love, I would love to know. And I bet you it's in that book. I promise I'm going to finish reading this book. I'm just wondering everyone else should read it with me. But yeah. Insane. So they're now the police now are onto the pattern. They're staking out places where young coeds hang out, where they end up like parking structures, stuff like that. A female student who claims to have gone on a blind date with this guy goes to police and gives his description. So now the police know what he looks like. And when he contacts her a second time for a follow up date, she calls the police and tells them. So they, the police show up at the meeting spot.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They question Jerry at the girls residence hall. So fucking intense at Oregon State. But he's so cooperative and he gave his id. Nothing came back. It all seemed legit. So he was not arrested because all they had on him was you're just trying to make blind dates with people. Which is not illegal.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But a bummer. Yeah. But then the, thank God the police after that interaction with him go back and they look up his record, they look into him further.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And didn't the blind date went forward after.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, yeah. She's like, once he got cleared by the cops, she's like, so do you like roller skating? So they look into his record, they decide to go to his house for some follow up questions and there they see several suspicious items in his garage, in his sub basement thing and they start building a case against him. Because they're like the old classic line of cops.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We like this guy. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So eventually they have enough evidence to arrest, to get an arrest warrant. He tries to run while they're the police are serving him with the arrest warrant.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Never do that. It's never going to work.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No. If the cops are there. Yeah, you're done.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But the warrant was for the attempted deduction of Leanne Brumley from the month before.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And so then they starting, they get him in, take him downtown, whatever, they start interrogating him and he tries to call, he, he Tries to call his wife and get her to burn stuff, clothing and like his, his underwear collection and all this other evidence.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's like, now you can go into the sub basement.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, exactly Right. Here's the. Here's the basket, here's the password. But Darcy's like, go fuck yourself. For real?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Darcy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Darcy's over it. She's. She's had.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Had it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So the investigator's name was Jim Stoval. And he basically gets Jerry Brudos to confess to the murders of the two recently discovered bodies, as well as the murder of Linda Slosson and Jan Whitney.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's test. Jerry Brudos is tested by several psychologists, psychiatrists. Sorry. And he shows average IQ and cognition deemed not criminally insane. Which I'm not. I. I don't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How can you be.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because how can you be a serial, like murder people and not be a little insane?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, but I'm not sure what criminally insane. Must have a very specific thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hardcore. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But he is diagnosed as an antisocial personality manifested by fetishism, transvesticism, exhibitionism, voyeurism and sadism.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Isn't trans. Isn't it funny that back then transvesticism is a crime? Yes. It's insane. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it wasn't that long ago. I mean, like, what is it? It's 1960 something. I lost my paper. We're in like, we're in the late 60s, 1969.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm sure someone's going to tell us when it went to and it's going to be recent.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, well, I mean, they just fucking passed a thing and it's. Yeah. Okay. So they, they collect all the. Ever since he's eventually charged with three counts of first degree murder. Jan Whitney, Linda Saley, Karen Sprinkler. He tries to plead not guilty by reason of insanity, but eventually they just get him to plead guilty. And so on the same day that he pleads guilty, he's sentenced to three consecutive life sentences because he confessed. There's no death penalty in Oregon, so they just give him three consecutive life sentences. He's never charged with the murder of Linda Slauson because her body was never found.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's so sad.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Now, around the time of all of these murders, 12 women went missing in that area while he was free. Oh, my God. So an investigation was ongoing to attempt to uncover the whereabouts of those other missing women. And at one point, a neighbor of the Brutuses implicated Darcy in the murders, claiming that she had helped Jerry carry a body from the garage. And she actually ended up going to trial for it now being acquitted.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Holy shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Do you think she did?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because what a bummer to like a. Have your husband turn out to be a serial killer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're implicated in it. Even they have nothing to do with it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, that's what I would think. I don't think someone.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know, who knows, based on what she's already done, you would think that she would testify against him for immunity if she actually knew something.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. And if she didn't burn when he called and was like, get rid of the evidence, she's like, no way. That doesn't seem like a person who's like, in it. In it for the long haul or like his accomplice. Yeah, for sure. And yeah. Anyhow, he goes to jail. But he also had piles of women's shoe catalogs in his cell of. He would write to the companies and ask for their. The catalog. So they were. He claimed that sub substituted for pornography for him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Holy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And he actually, it says he lodged countless appeals, including one in which the. He allegedly. Oh, sorry. He lodged countless appeals, including one in which he alleged that a photograph taken of him with one of the corpses could not prove his guilt because it was not the body of the person he was convicted of killing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So he.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They found a picture of him posing with a dead body. But he was. Well, I'm probably him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I would imagine on a timer, maybe.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Kitchen timer. Yeah, but. So it's like that kind of thing where he's arguing like, look, that's not the dead body. Then. Hey, you can't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Someone else.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so insane. It's a picture of you posing with a dead body. Anyway, he died in prison on March 28, 2006, from liver cancer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, he lived for a long fucking time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In fact, at the time of his death, he was the longest incarcerated inmate in the Oregon Department of Corrections. A total of 37 years.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. My age. My entire life is how long he was in prison.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Holy shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So if you want to. To read Lust Killer, I'm going to finish it and then we'll know all those details because I really do want to know, like, all that stuff at the end. And I bet you it'll. It'll talk more about Darcy too, because I it. I'm sure she talked to Ann Roll. I bet you should talk to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You think so? I bet you did love to hear more from Darcy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Try to finish that pretty soon. But also thanks to those people From Radford University. Your research helped me do my thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thing. Thanks, guys. Shout outs to fucking helpers. This episode, Wired magazine, all this. Wow. What a creep. I had never heard that one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's bad. Yeah, it's one of those ones I've been working on. But every time I go to do it, I'm like, it's just a. I mean, it's just. There's no. But the only thing. It was the two points. I always look for those cinematic moments. One cinematic moment is a person dressed up like a woman hiding in a parking garage.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Which is the scariest. Like, beyond.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then the other one is that as a child attacking that little girl and then being like, I'm my twin brother. Where it's like, how fucking crazy are you?

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's like, psych. Psycho level.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, we're back. Karen, do you have any updates?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No case updates. Although Jerry Bruda was featured in Mindhunter, which I always thought was interesting. Cause, you know, we make jokes about it being so textbook. Like, he had such a serial killer's childhood and all those things. It's like, he's so textbook. And then the idea that, like, in Mindhunter, they're like, yep, here's one of those people that's exactly the kind of serial killer that's like, here's their fetish, here's their, you know, history.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And he's not as much of a well known serial killer as the others they showcased on that show. So that was interesting.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It is interesting. It makes me think that, you know, we think a lot like John Douglas, the FBI agent and author of Mindhunter.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, it's 10 years. We're basically FBI agents.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We have earned it. You know, clearly. We know exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We've earned it. We put in our hours. What is it called when you put your hours in for something?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Clock in, clock out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, like, you pay your dues. Yeah, something like that. We've paid our dues.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We've paid our dues and then some.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We surely have. All right, well, should we wrap this guy up with our happy things? That Elvis and Mimi are healthier? Oh, no. So good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, let's wrap it up. Do you have a good thing for this week?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I have a good thing this week. Obviously, it's Elvis getting better and Mimi getting better, but now that they are better, I can say what was gonna be last week before this happened, which is a kitten, man. A new kitten. Like, nothing will make it more exciting in your house. Like, just watching her playing with a little toy by herself is like joyous.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then at night. Oh, my God. At night she nurses, tries to nurse Vince's head and it drives him crazy. But it's like the cute. I like, pull her away, but not before I look at it for a minute. It's just so cute. And she like, nuzzles and she's a real character and I like having her around.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's super cute.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it's funny because she matches Mimi. It's like they have the same gen jacket on, but Mimi's like, I hate you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mimi's jacket's like obviously a little more worn in. It's because it's a little lighter in color. She's washed it more and she hates the kitten.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Kitten's name is Doy. She's a real doll. So what's yours?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Mine is. I did a show last night at Largo. It was a comedy show for Brian Posan, who had. Who's been doing comedy for 30 years. So it was his 30 year anniversary in comedy. So he asked a bunch of us to do the show with him, who he's been doing it with that long. And so it was me, Blanket Patch, Derek Sheen, Dana Gould, Greg Proops, Ngaio Belam. And it was such a good show.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Great idea for a show.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was so fun. And then so everyone was like, obviously doing their act, but then also telling these stories and doing jokes from their act from back then. Wow. And it was so fun and everyone was so insanely solid. But then it also was like, I had a couple moments. It was very touching because I was like. I said something about how lucky I felt to have kind of happened into this tribe that I found where it's like those people in San Francisco, those comics that I met and got to be friends with, that all ended. We all just moved en masse to LA together. And it was just such an amazing group of talented people who are geniuses and so fun and telling stories where we're. I had a recovered memory on stage where I was like, Brian, remember when O.J. ran and we. We were in Golden Apple Comics and like, it was just like a whole thing like that where it was really, really fun.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's such a nice thing to like, you know, you're going through this and you're. Or like you've been in comedy this long and you're keeping. You're doing it and you're doing it, but then to like stop and take. Take stock of it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is such a cool thing. And I really, I like that you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Guys did that I did too. And it takes stock in this kind of like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was almost like a high school. It had a high school feeling in. In me, like, meaning and that you're part of.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're part of this big force and you. You're part of it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You belong in it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And. And I think, like, when you're in that, you of course, don't appreciate it because you're young and an asshole, drunk all the time and kind of on pills. But yeah. When you. Later on, when you get older, you know, just. Just know that, like, when you have your, like, posse of friends, it doesn't last because everyone gets married or, you know, maybe moves away or whatever.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Quits comedy for whatever reason or.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, exactly. It' of people move away from each other and in ways that you kind of don't expect. And then. So I think there. There was a nice kind of like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Reunion feel to it that I really liked.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's so awesome.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Those good feelings.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I. Because I really always. I hate doing standup comedy so much and I very often cancel my sets because I'm like, there's no point. And I knew I couldn't do it because I wouldn't do that to Brian.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Special one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So then when I was actually doing and I was like, oh, I do like it. That's right. I do like comedy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. You gotta pick the ones that mean something to you, I guess.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And just, like, acknowledge when I'm busy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And tie, tie.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Tired and busy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I get so tight, so tired.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, so we're back from our wrap up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. So this episode was originally titled the Sharpest Needle in the Tack. One of the great George Floyd quotes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you. But if we were changing it today, which I don't think we would. Some options would be. And whenever we record an episode, Molly or Bridger comes in and gives us options as titles. Just so you guys know of, like, the stupid funny things we said in the episode. So that's kind of what we're doing. So we wouldn't change it. But here are some options. It could be stardust equals anxiety, which is on my list. And I still don't know what the fuck that means. Maybe it's that, like, the universe is so vast and stardust is so that it's overwhelming. That could be it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And maybe you read that quote that we're all made of stardust and so. Oh, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it gave me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You don't want that in there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That sounds like me, you don't want.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Space rocks inside you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't want that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's also twists and turns all over the place, which is when Georgia teased her story as unexpected and then keeps on talking about the twists and turns out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I do a lot of twists and turns. And then, please, doctors, that Karen went on that we went on a tangent about what it means to have a cerebral. A cerebral hemorrhage. God, that's a hard one to say.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And Karen pleads with doctors to weigh in. Please, doctors, tell us how to do this podcast.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, it's how we've always been about this podcast. We want doctors, we want the input. It's. The guidance is appreciated. We don't always take it and often you're wrong, but when you're right, you're right. We won't deny when you. You're right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're probably way more professional than we are, so might as well get in here, tell us. All right, so thanks, you guys for listening. We're going to say goodbye in the original episode from 2017. Thanks for coming in and listening to Rewind. Well, should I see if anyone is going to talk? Elvis isn't. Mimi.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, thanks for listening, everybody.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you guys for listening. Yeah, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Go on to the website if you want. Get those pre sale tickets for the upcoming tour. Australia. Heads up. Australia, get ready.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Get in there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Australia, be our friend.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that's it. Stay sexy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't get murdered. Bye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Bye, Mimi.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Want a cookie, Mimi?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not this week, Mimi.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's like leaning away from the microphone.