Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 84: Harvard 2

Summary

My Favorite Murder: "Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 84: Harvard 2"

Podcast: My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Release Date: February 18, 2026
Network: Exactly Right and iHeartPodcasts
Episode Revisited: "Harvard 2" (originally aired August 31, 2017)

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Overview

In this "Rewind" episode, Karen and Georgia revisit their 2017 episode "Harvard 2," offering fresh commentary, personal updates, and behind-the-scenes insights. The pair discuss the shocking true crime case of Theresa Knorr, infamous for her abuse and murder of her own daughters, and also recap wild true crime headlines including the Persian Mummy forgery, the harrowing case of model Chloe Ayling, a creepy attic intruder, and the murder of journalist Kim Wall aboard a submarine. With their signature dark humor and authenticity, the hosts reflect on how podcasting — and their personal lives — have changed, all while keeping things conversational and candid.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Revisiting Episode 84: "Harvard 2"

• Podcast Nostalgia:
  • Karen and Georgia reminisce about their early podcast days: technical mishaps, playful banter, and tour tales.
  • The meaning behind the episode title unfolds (“Harvard 2” as an Ivy League joke about Claremont Colleges—[11:27]).
• Personal Updates:
  • Reflections on traveling, flying anxieties (“I’m very angry at the ghost of my mother”—Karen, [04:09])
  • Discussions about live shows, new merch, "doing a different murder every night," and the pressures of the "15 book report" workload ([08:19]).

2. Banter, Sidetracks, and Listener Engagement

• Plant Moms and Puns:
  • Georgia shares her mother Janet’s late-life journey into horticulture and jokes about opening a “Little Shop of Horticulture” ([12:04]).
  • Amusing exchanges about childhood, Catholic upbringing, and blood clot superstitions ([17:02]).
• Listener Interactions:
  • Fans and even Carvel Ice Cream tweet about Fudgy the Whale cakes ([09:54]).
  • Light ribbing at merch ideas and acknowledging fans’ creative Etsy shops ([99:49]).

3. Deep Dive: The Theresa Knorr Case

The Reporting

• Theresa Knorr’s Abuses and Murders ([22:34]–[54:24]):
  • Origin: In 1989, Terry Knorr, aged 20, tells Utah police about her mother’s killing of two daughters; the claims are initially dismissed ([23:07]).
  • Escalating Abuse:
    • Forced isolation, beatings, torture (including burning and force-feeding), chains, and forced participation by siblings ([30:32]).
    • Deep psychological damage; even therapists and lawyers did not believe Terry’s claims due to her affect and background ([25:53]).
  • Murders:
    • Susan shot, nursed, then further abused; ultimately, Susan was set on fire alive by her brothers under their mother’s orders ([41:28]).
    • Sheila forced into sex work, then imprisoned, starved, and her corpse hidden — with the apartment set on fire to cover evidence.
  • Aftermath:
    • Knorr and surviving children go into hiding; one son, Robert, later commits murder during a robbery ([48:12]).
    • Terry is eventually believed due to highly specific details; Theresa arrested in Salt Lake City ([49:21]); conviction to two life sentences ([53:39]).
    • Discussion of culpability of the brothers and complexities of holding children in abusive circumstances responsible ([51:05]).
    • Updates: Terry died in 2011; the case remains notorious for its brutality ([57:17]).
• Comparisons to Other Cases:
  • Parallels with other abuse and manipulation cases, i.e., Sylvia Likens ([31:25]).

Notable Quotes

“You live through a trauma like that of, like, half your family killing the other half. And then you’re supposed to just be like, ‘Oh, no, I’m a reliable witness’... She had to shut her emotions off from all of this so long ago.” – Karen ([25:33])

“This story reminds me of Sylvia Likens, that horrible story I covered a while ago...the mom made the other kids beat up one of them.” – Georgia ([31:25])

4. True Crime Headlines & Bizarre Stories

a. The Persian Mummy Forgery ([61:29])

• Discovery of a “Persian mummy” claimed to be Xerxes' daughter; investigation by Dr. Asma Ibrahim reveals it’s a modern-day forgery with a recent victim—now an unsolved murder ([68:51]).
• Black market attempts to sell fake mummies for up to a billion dollars ([71:02]).

b. Chloe Ayling Kidnapping ([72:04])

• 20-year-old British model kidnapped in Milan, held for ransom, but released when kidnapper claims criminals “don’t kill mothers” ([74:29]).
• Updates: Chloe’s kidnapper Lucas Herba was imprisoned but later released, Chloe wrote a memoir and appeared on Celebrity Big Brother ([91:16]).

c. The Attic Intruder ([77:19])

• Pittsburgh man discovers neighbor crawling through his attic, peering into the vent over his daughter's room ([77:51]).
• Neighbor claims it’s a misunderstanding; convicted of trespassing and fined ([91:30]).

d. The Kim Wall Submarine Murder ([81:45])

• Danish journalist Kim Wall goes missing while profiling submarine builder Peter Madsen ([82:09]).
• Madsen changes story multiple times; Kim’s headless torso later found, Madsen convicted of murder and later attempts prison escape ([92:10]).

“What could we call it? A laboratory.” – Karen mocking Peter Madsen’s “space lab” aspirations ([87:21])

5. Reflections on Podcasting, Mental Health, and Life

• ADHD Talk:
  • Both hosts joke about their attention spans and self-medicating (“I have every kind of med, if you want to try them”—Karen, [89:32]).
• Finances, Family, and Privilege:
  • Karen discusses her dad helping her with finances, the role of privilege in childhood, and the hosts’ experiences of being “broke” rather than “poor” ([95:02], [100:31]).
• Creativity & Resilience:
  • Encouragement for listeners (“Murderinos”) to make art and create side hustles, and pride in the resilience that comes from less comfort ([99:45]).

6. Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the Pressures of Live Shows:

  “We don’t do the same murder ever, ever. And...it’s a lot of work. I’m really mad about it.” – Karen ([08:19])

• Plant Moms Unite:

  “My mom is a horticulturist. I want her to call it Little Shop of Horticulture.” – Georgia ([12:04])

• On covering dark topics:

  “It makes it extra dark when you’re from the place where you hear the story.” – Karen ([56:03])

• On white privilege and being ‘broke’:

  “I don’t say anymore I was poor because I say I was broke. That’s my lingo now...I had privilege, and poor isn’t the word I want to use.” – Georgia ([100:31])

---

Notable Timestamps

• 04:01 – 06:33: Pre-Australia tour anxieties, airborne superstitions
• 11:27 – 12:24: Claremont College "Harvard 2" jokes; Janet’s horticulture
• 22:34 – 54:24: The Theresa Knorr case, from initial report to conviction; detailed discussion
• 57:17: Updates: Terry’s tragic death and lingering mysteries
• 61:29 – 71:13: Persian Mummy forgery, antiquities black market
• 72:04 – 76:06: Chloe Ayling’s kidnapping and aftermath
• 77:19 – 78:49: Pittsburgh attic intruder revealed by footage
• 81:45 – 88:46: Kim Wall’s disappearance and murder onboard the Nautilus
• 89:01 – 90:15: ADHD, medication, and self-diagnosis humor
• 91:16 – 93:01: Crime story updates (Ayling, attic intruder, Kim Wall)
• 95:02 – 100:04: Finances, family support, and privilege
• 100:31 – 102:19: Reflection on “broke vs. poor”; murderinos and side hustles

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Tone & Style

The episode remains true to the irreverent, conversational style of MFM — dark topics are softened by gallows humor, digressions, and personal asides. Hosts share vulnerably about family, career anxiety, and therapy, and make space for fan engagement and socio-cultural reflection.

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In Summary

This “rewind” episode revisits one of MFM’s darkest, most shocking stories, the Theresa Knorr case, and wraps it inside new reflections, personal growth, and trademark banter. The hosts weave updates, personal anecdotes, and discussions about privilege, trauma, and resilience — all while maintaining deep engagement with their loyal listeners. With a blend of gallows humor and heartfelt authenticity, Karen and Georgia reaffirm why fans return for both catharsis and connection, not just crime.

Transcript

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

Hello and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know, every Wednesday we recap our old shows with all new commentary, updates and insights.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We do and we will. Today we're recapping episode 84, which we named Harvard 2.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I have no idea what it means and I love it already.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I got an idea and it's hilarious.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So good. Okay, this episode came out August 31.

[Karen Kilgariff]

2017, so let's listen to the intro of episode 84. Welcome to my favorite murder. Oh for some reason, professional to me.

Is like a low voice is ASMR Videos ASMR Videos welcome to Ivy Room.

Murder this Karen. That's Karen Kilkeren. That's two darn things. And here we are, guys. Professionals.

This is the third time we've started tonight. Let's see if we can nail this.

It got real bad. You guys missed a lot about driving. You missed. I spoiled a movie. Go watch the movie, Christine. It's on Netflix. And I won't. That's all I'm going to tell you.

That's all you're going to tell them. And don't look anything up about it. Just watch it, if you dare. Just watch it cold and don't know what it's about.

It was everything that I wanted because it took place in the 80s. It was all vintage clothing, amazingness, Hall. Rebecca hall was incredible. Michael C. Hall, this place. Such a douche. I love it. All the halls are in it.

All the halls and they're. And it's about the invention of halls. Cough drops.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yep.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The halls are the halls of. What are they? What was our catchphrase?

Deck the halls. Now this is just word association.

Should we start again? No, we're on April. Let us do it. We're leaving tomorrow for Denver.

Oh, yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This will come out next week, so.

Hey, Namweer, guess what? I can't believe how high you got.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Everybody.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, so actually we're leaving in two days for Australia.

Oh shit.

Dude, are you excited? I made us reservations at a restaurant already.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did I tell you that already? Yeah, you did.

I am excited. I have to say, I'm very angry at the ghost of my mother because as the.

Sounds healthy already.

As the. As the. The one thing she did harp on in her life was it was always a nursing related thing or a health related thing. Anytime I flew to New York or back east, she would say, get up and walk around. You don't want to die of a blood clot. She would say that to me before.

I got into planes, which is like, great, thanks.

Thanks for building that into my psyche. It'll never leave.

I don't. You are not supposed to cross your legs on takeoff and landing.

Really?

For that reason.

Is that true?

Yeah. Well, I don't know if it's fucking true, but that's my paranoia that I've read. Don't cross your legs. That's so specific though, because you're cutting off blood circulation.

Right, but why take off and landing?

Because of the pressure.

Okay, okay.

You're asking already?

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Well, I mean, yeah, all of it is.

It makes sense. Ish.

It's just a concern that I have.

Okay. So your mom told you that all.

My pants are too tight and I'm scared I'm going to die of a blood clot.

Okay, wait oh, you mean in life.

Those are kind of two separate, and then at the same time, the same issue.

Well, here's good news. Okay, since we're flying business class, there's a bar in business class. So you can walk over and meet me and Vince at the bar. Business class. Getting absolutely shithammered.

Wait, is this like international waters where I can drink on the plane to Australia because it doesn't count as being in America or my actual life.

Yes, and then you'll have a blood cough and a seizure on the plane for real.

And I'll punch everybody. I will punch the pilot and be arrested.

Vince keeps making up scenarios like he likes to do. And then. And then George is running around the business class in her G string. I don't even wear G string. Suddenly. Oh, he goes, you're debuting your first G string running around. Miss, can you. Miss, we need you to.

Because you're going to be so drunk.

Because I'll be so drunk and so excited that we're in business class.

Very exciting. So I like the idea that I can lay down. That really brings me a lot of relief. But it is scary to me. I don't know. There's something nerve wracking about a plane flight that long.

Huh? Okay, well, we'll hold your hand. Okay.

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We'll be in a pod.

That's right, we'll be in a pod. Steven, you'll be there.

Are you on the same flight as us? No, I'm not on the same pod. I was gonna send you back drinks constantly.

No.

Yeah, well, I'll send them anyways.

And Steven's in his G string.

Yeah.

Out of control.

Steven's in my G string. I'm ready. I got terr pants and everything.

Yes. Australia style.

I mean, I've done that flight before. I've done the flight to New Zealand, so that one's a little bit longer than Australia. But like, I feel like I just slept the whole time. I just was like, I can't handle this long of a flight where it's like we're landing like two days later. Feels like. Yeah, but I. It's gonna be intense.

It's very exciting. Yeah, it's definitely gonna be exciting. Oh, I'm gonna get one of those Evian spray bottles and just spray water on my face the whole time. Just.

Ma', am, can we. Ma'.

Am.

Everyone's complaining.

Ma', am, nobody wants you to do that anymore.

The soaking wet because you keep doing it over your head.

Like, this is what rich people do.

Does that Stop doing anything. All right.

Okay. Let's talk about podcasting.

Oh, I want to say for the live show, since we're on the subject, that I think that we haven't told people that. So we do, like, sometimes two or three shows in the same city. We do a different murder every night.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So I feel like some people are like. Because we did that once the first time we did two shows in one night.

I believe it was Seattle, right?

Yeah. And, like, you could hear the people in the second show who had been at the first one, like, audibly grown. Yeah. And then we were both like, oh, it felt bad. Yeah. The air went out of the room.

We were just staring at each other, like, why are we doing this is wrong with us?

Like, I saw and I could see in the front row, like, the same two faces I had seen in the show before, and I just wanted to apologize.

So I think we did apologize to a lot of people. You know what we did, we stopped doing it. Therefore, that is the living apology that we did.

So we don't do the same murder ever, ever. And.

And it's a lot of work. I'm really mad about it.

Like, you said that you feel like you have 15 book reports. Yes, it's true. And we have all new really cool merch that you can't get online for sale at the shows and live show. Like, we actually put a lot of work into it, and it's, like, fucking cool shit.

If you were single and you had a bumble profile, I think that merch would be one of the things you would list under your interests.

I'm really interested.

You're fucking about merch and have been since. It's just so fun.

There's so much cool shit. We have a shirt now, and it says I'm A. And then there's one that says Karen, one that says Georgia, but it's in our signatures, which is Vince's idea, and it's so fucking cool.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was Karen's idea. She just mouthed it at me. God damn it. I'm sorry.

It's okay.

You just gave me so much credit for doing merch. And then I was like, you don't do anything.

I do sometimes, from the privacy of my home.

Well, then I don't think it's that great of an idea anymore.

What happened? You loved it when Vince did it.

Asked me to say that.

I would like to say, you know, props to Vince. There are lots of people who contacted us from Los Angeles or grew up here or whatever that needed to say there is a Carvel ice cream shop in Los Angeles out on the west side.

Oh, yeah.

We didn't know that. I've never heard of it at all. In California at all.

Me neither. Fudgy the Whale I've been hearing about forever. Who else contacted us to let us know about Carvell Carvel.

Carvel themselves.

Yeah.

What did they say?

Did you see the tweet? What'd it say, Stephen? Oh, because we were talking about getting a Carvel Fudgy the whale for 100th show.

Yes.

And they said they were like, the countdown's on. Party time. It's on us or something.

Oh, really?

We're fucking famous now. That me. I was like, that's. That's it. Why is it cake? An ice cream cake or whatever that we could afford ourselves. Send Stephen to get.

Yeah, to me.

I'm tweeting at it as I lost my mind.

You've changed. You've changed.

No, I haven't, Steve. That's the part I think I'm excited about. A cake, which is nothing new. Sending to Steven.

It's a real celebration. Well, what's funny to me is people talked about it and they were like, I grew up eating it and da, da, da. Well, I looked it up and as far as I could tell, that shop opened in 2008.

No, that's what it said on the website. Santa Monica.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Okay.

And it's the only one in la.

I think there's one outside of la, too. I think there was one in, like, I'm naming a city that I don't like. Monrovia.

Oh, is that a place over in Monrovia?

Over in Monroe? Like, it's one of those places where I'm from, Southern California, and I don't know where that. Like, there's these cities that you're like, why would I know where Pacoima is?

It's like, well, yeah. Is it those. There's a really. There's a mystery spot that's kind of like along the.

Called Inland Empire.

Yeah. The mountain range.

Vince was like, why don't. How do you not know where these places are?

Like, Claremont? What's happening over in Claremont?

Nobody goes there unless I think they stay there.

They're like, fuck, la.

Yeah, we stay here. Which is fair. It's like, I've been to a couple of places. I'm like, oh, it's fucking adorable.

Well, Claremont's fancy too.

Is it?

It has, like, that college. They have colleges over there.

Oh, you mean Harvard?

That's where Harvard is.

What if they had Harvard, too?

That's what is there.

Harvard too.

It's similar to Harvard. It's tons of ivy. It's just mostly it's a school to teach you how to grow ivy.

They just have a plant. They teach you how to grow ivy. Do you know that my mom is a horticulturist? And I really want her.

Wait, hold on. Yeah, Janet's a horticulturist?

Yeah.

Is that true?

She's going to school for it. She's always been so fucking hardcore into plants. Wow. And then finally, at 71, she's like, well, I'm going to go to school to be a horticulturist.

That's amazing.

Yeah. So she works at, like a nursery, and I'm dying for her to open her own. Her own plant shop. And I just. Only because I want her to call it Little Shop of Horticulture. Is that the best thing you've ever.

Yeah.

No, it's not.

No. That one I'm gonna go with.

Okay.

That one I like.

That's good.

Yeah, it was good.

Thank you. That was a sidebar.

I.

A sidebar?

What if she did that and then.

She gets sued by Rick Moranis, by.

The evil dentist Steve Martin?

That was so pointless.

Please go on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, seriously, it's like we're trying to get people to not listen to this podcast. Here's this series I have to talk about because I'm so into it.

Okay. The Sinner.

Are you watching it with Jessica Biel?

Oh, I'm dying to.

Okay, you have to.

I'm dying. I didn't know it was on yet.

Jessica Biel. Bill Pullman plays the cop. I don't know, some Jon Snow looking motherfucker plays her husband. I've never seen him before. Unless it is Jon Snow and he's doing an American accent. I'm not sure what's happening.

I don't know who that is.

He's beautiful. And it is a. Like, she doesn't know. You have to see it.

I. I will. I've seen the commercials and I've gotten, like, chills.

It's on demand. Anyway, if you like. I don't know if you like a good series, which this is. And it is, it has the crime feel to it, but it also is, like, has a very well written and paced drama feel to it. Jessica Biel, who I've never known. Like, I'm. I'm too old to be in that seventh heaven generation.

Oh, me too.

She is so good.

I just hated it.

It's. I mean, like, it's a little. You're not that. You're not that into Christianity. It's probably what it is, actually.

Did you know I am.

What?

Yeah, you're the.

You're a Jew for Jesus.

Jew for Jesus.

Yeah. So anyway, if you are looking for something new to watch, highly recommend the Sinner.

It's not. So I was worried it's gonna be like corn and like, you know, they keep trying to make these shows that are, like, True Detective and they're not, like, really didn't like the Ozarks. Did you watch that?

I didn't watch it because, yeah, everyone loved it.

And I'm sorry to. I don't care, but it was. I hated it. And so I was like, oh, I hope this isn't another one of those.

Right now, Jason Bateman has a single.

Tear rolling down his cheek and he sings.

Okay.

That's what he says in the beginning of every. Sorry. Shit. I really want, like, a walk on role in the new Arrested Development, so I shouldn't talk shit on you.

Is that really what you want?

No.

[Advertiser Voice]

Shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Are you vision boarding right now?

I'm spitballing my vision board.

A walk on role where you just kind of walk on. No, I totally get it because I think. Well, it's. Because when it's done right, it's the best.

Yeah.

And when it's done right, you can, like, lock into a series like that.

Or Night of The Night of.

Hello. Yeah, I want to watch it 50 times. So this now I'm thinking of Jessica.

Biel and what's his name? Making out.

Justin Timberlake.

No, that's her husband.

Night of Ariz Ahmed.

Yeah.

Oh, and you're just having personal fantasies.

Yes, that's for your other podcast. I'm cosplaying. Okay, I am sorry.

[Advertiser Voice]

I'm just going.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You don't like Riz Ahmed? Because if you like Riz Ahmed, you wouldn't immediately picture making out with Jessica.

Biel and picture making out myself.

Well, yeah, if you. So you. You're not.

He's a good looking human.

Okay. I thought you were like, oh, I want his DNA inside me.

No, I meant that. And I want to have his baby. Because he's so handsome.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's so beautiful.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because he's so beautiful. And if it's the baby, it would be gorgeous.

You're using him. You're using him using his DNA. Oh, my God, I'm totally telling him. Why you. I'm so mad At. Those are my only topics. Carvel and the Sinner.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I think we should probably watch.

Some episodes while we eat Carvel ice cream. Okay, let's watch them right now while we talk. What was I gonna say? I have another thing, but I'm sure it's not important. And weird.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Take a moment.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Stop and listen. You know how people love awkward, weird pauses in podcasts?

They never exist. With Steven's wonderful work editing, am I right?

Don't edit this out, Stephen. And we're back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Claremont College is Harvard, too. Done and done.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We did it again.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, there's parts of this, you know, as you and only you understand me. The parts. Yes, the parts of this podcast and having this podcast that are absolutely, like, soul scrapingly painful for us. But then there's those things where, like, you hear it back and you're like, God damn it. That's funny.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Totally.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just conversationally great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's how I feel whenever I watch an MFM animated. I'm like, we can't stop doing this because this is fucking brilliant. Not me, not you. But like this in general.

Yes, exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like having those eyes where. Whether it's a Nick Terry or our listeners where they're like, it's good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We like it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're like, okay.

She's like, okay. Have you ever had a blood clot?

No. Fuck, no. Thank God. And I still don't cross my legs on takeoff and landing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. I mean, or when you're getting your hair cut.

Is.

Do you know that?

Or ever.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cause you're not a lady if you don't do it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I was crossing my legs. Where was it the other day?

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I was like, am I supposed to be doing this right now? Oh, I was in church. And I was like, you were in.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wait, back the fuck up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was a funeral.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, sorry.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But you're like, what?

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. I'm becoming super Catholic.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I thought you were gonna say it was Christmas. I'm like, that still doesn't exclude.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, no. It was a funeral. And I was sitting there, and then I was like, realized that that's my most comfortable position is cross legs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Same.

And I don't think you're supposed to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cross your legs in church. What?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's not.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They have so many rules.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Are you serious? That sounds like a superstition, but I guess that's what religion is really.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, hey, if there's any nuns or priests out there that want to talk about Catholic rules, because also, this is like, post Vatican too. So there's rules I don't even know about. They do call in response that I don't recognize because I like that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then other. Everyone else is like, right here. Jesus.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Touching hands. Touching hands. I'm like, What?

[Karen Kilgariff]

We never did it this way.

They're playing what's it? Rochambeau for God. Rohambeau for God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What? Okay. What? No. Blood clot. Thank fucking God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, everything's fine. Oh, that's a very meaningful question is, did your mom becoming horticulturist at 71 inspire you in any way?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, I think, yeah. It always has. I think it's pretty incredible that she did that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, it's very cool.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It keeps your brain like. She had to learn Latin.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, and that. And she's 79 now. Holy shit. Almost. Yeah. Oh, my God. So close to 80. And.

[Georgia Hardstark]

God, she looks good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She looks amazing. And she's still pretty sharp. I think some of that pot smoking may have slowed things down just a.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Little bit, but otherwise, probably because she wants it to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's her.

Let's slow this shit down a little bit.

But, yeah, I think it's any time of your life, you should be learning something new.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Also, she's kind of a visionary because the way plants have blown up, and I know that sounds stupid, but it really is true. Like, the social media kind of trend of I have 800 plants in my apartment. It feels like Janet was on the early edge of that trend.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She could be a horticulture influencer now if she wanted to. And it's the thing of too of like, something you've always been interested your whole life. Like, we can't go for a walk my entire life without her pointing at a plant and telling me what kind of fucking flower it is or whatever.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So she's like, I love this. I'm going to learn more. It's great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know what's funny is my dad. My. Both of my parents were into plants like that too. And so I was walking somewhere one time, and I was like, look at this bougainvillea. And everyone thought I was joking, and it really was. And I was like, oh, that's so weird. I just had that waiting in there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I love that. I think I call most flowers. Oh, look at that. Hydrangea. Is that a hydrangea?

I think.

I think everything is a hydrangea. And, like, nothing's a hydrangea.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And most people are impressed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, they don't fucking know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They don't fucking know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Except my mom's like, you're stupid.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And you're like, shut the fuck up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I hate you. Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, we love you, Janet. And great job. Yeah, great job on that trend. Okay, now we're back to this podcast.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, Here we are.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's true crime. We're getting into Georgia's story and it is about Theresa Knorr.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's a huge difference between having a hobby and making it a career.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And one of them involves invoices.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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Built in scheduling and email tools help manage bookings and communication without juggling multiple platforms.

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

The last one we actually did was. If I get it before you, Stephen, you're fired. Okay. Weapon Bush. No, you're going first. Okay. You're not fired. All right. 1989, 20 year old woman named Terry Knorr comes to the Utah police and she has a story for them. She tells them about how eight years before, around her mother and two brothers had killed both of her teenage sisters, Terry's teenage sisters, and left their bodies in the mountains near Lake Tahoe.

What the fuck?

Yeah. Tells them this. She's kind of like, you know, like a druggie and she's been arrested for like shoplifting. So she's kind of on the outskirts of stuff. So they don't believe her. They're like, you're making shit up. And it's an insane story. So the cops don't believe her. A therapist and a lawyer that she consults don't believe her story. Yeah. So she's just like, well, fuck it. I don't know what to do then. But then in 1993, she watches an episode of America's Most Wanted, calls the hotline that they give and she's like, fuck it. Starts bawling and I guess there's like a woman on the other end of the line who's like, oh my God. And they're like talking and I'm like, how cool would it have been to be in America's Most wanted Fucking call center operator. Can you imagine?

Cool. And then also you would have talked to some of the craziest. You would have heard some of the craziest stories.

Definitely.

I should say it that way.

Would you rather be. I know the answer to this. A 911 operator or a call cent by number or name anything or anything else in the world.

Name anything else.

Okay. So she calls them and this chick's like, whoa, that's crazy. They talk forever. She's like, well, why don't you go to the police station that this took the precinct that this took place in? Cause she lived in Utah then. And they didn't believe her. So she goes to the Placer county sheriff and tells authorities what happened. And they start to realize that these details match with two cold cases that had happened eight years before. Oh, shit. And she's giving them details that fit so well that they can't not believe her.

I so badly right now wanna see video of her to see what her behavior.

Or I can show it to you right now.

Clothing for real. Cold case file, why don't they. What about her do you think makes her so unbelievable to the authorities?

She definitely seems like the kind of person she's talking about. How she told everyone she would tell anyone who listened this story, and they must have thought that I could see people being like, this chick just fucking goes to a dive bar. She's a regular. She tells everyone the story. Nobody believes it. It's a crazy story.

So does she seem like an alcoholic or like she's a druggie or something?

Yeah, not anymore. Not when she's doing the actual episode. She seems like she's got her shit and she's actually incredibly believable.

Well, and also, if you went through that, yeah, you get to drink, you do anything. I mean, like, that's the irritating thing about those kinds of situations. You live through a trauma like that of like, half your family killing the other half. And then you're supposed to just be like, oh, no, I'm a really reliable witness because I'm totally in reality all the time.

And it's like she's telling the story and she's not crying because she had to shut her emotions off from all of this so long ago. That they're like, you're telling us this story and you're telling it matter of factly, and we don't believe you. Even a therapist who should be able to look past all this stuff and call the fucking Lake Tahoe PD and be like, hey, anyways, well, we'll get to her story and we can talk about that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So, yeah, there's two never identified Jane does that kind of match. And they're like, oh, shit, we should look into this. So here's the story. So Terry's mom, her name's Theresa Knorr. She's born in Sacramento, California, in 46. At age 16, she leaves home to marry a man five years older than her who she had met a few months prior. She drops out of high school and she gets pregnant. So on July 6, 1964, they're arguing and the husband tells Theresa that he's leaving her. She gets so pissed off, she shoots him in the back with. As he's walking out the door, killing him.

Holy shit.

Yeah, she's arrested and charged with his murder, but she says she's not guilty because it was self defense. She says she doesn't tell them what happened. Really? Like shooting someone in the back, how is that self defense?

Yeah, it doesn't look good.

No. But during her trial, she's pregnant with her second kid, and she claims that she shot him because he was violent alcoholic who physically abused her. And she's acquitted of the murder. She gives birth to her second kid, Sheila, 65. And after that brush, she begins drinking super heavily, begins another relationship with a man named Robert Knorr. That's how she got her last name. She comes pregnant again. They have a third kid named Susan. Then they have three more children, William, Robert, and Teresa, that they named after her. And that's Terry. That's the girl who came.

Teresa junior.

Teresa Junior.

Yeah, I got that.

As you do as you name.

It's kind of cool.

The. Yeah, you know what? I really love the name Virginia, but if I ever have a kid, I can't name her Virginia because my name's Georgia and it would seem like I'm naming her after myself.

And this is my son, New Jersey, Right.

It's like, no, you can't do that. No, you're just vain. What if you had a daughter named her Karen?

I would totally do that. I would do that in a heartbeat. There you go. Aj, Come on.

Eventually, they divorce. She mates another man, they get married. Two months later, they divorce. And then this is when she starts to go fucking crazy. Says all the kids after her fourth divorce. Fourth divorce, six kids, she goes nuts. She starts drinking more and more. She puts on a ton of weight and is super pissed off about it. She starts abusing her kids hardcore. Terry said, when we were kids, my mom beat the shit out of us. She's like, kind of awesome.

Yeah.

Like you want to hang out with her when you see her in this Cold Case Files.

Okay, I'll watch it.

Yeah. She's just like, well, they beat. She beat the ever loving fuck out of. Like, she's just so matter of fact about it. But like, you could tell she's just like that friend that's intense and wants to have late night conversations with you about everything. If we hugged my. Our mom too much, it was like, who were we trying to convince that we loved her, she loved us. On the other hand, if we didn't hug her and kiss her and tell her we loved her, then we didn't love her. And we were evil children. We were demon seeds that had been given to her by Bob Knorr. So she goes crazy and starts to think that her kids are like satanic.

Oh.

And she becomes reclusive and disconnected the home phone and wouldn't let the kids go out or have visitors. They moved into a two bedroom apartment in Sacramento. Can you imagine? Six children, mom and two bedrooms.

I lived in two bedroom apartments with two other roommates and we all wanted to kill each other the whole time. Also, it's very hot there.

Sacramento always. Yeah. Probably didn't have ac.

Probably didn't. That will make you go crazy.

Swamp coolers. That's what you told me, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yep.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We sit around in chairs right next to the swamp cooler with our armpits up on it.

I've never even heard of like let.

The sun go down.

Okay. The neighbor and the neighbors say the apartment was filthy and smelled like urine. So on top of all of that, that. So for years Teresa abused and tortured her children. And it sounds horrific. Including burning them with cigarettes, throwing knives at them, beating. And once grabbed Terry by the arm and held a.22 caliber pistol to her head and told her she was going to kill her.

So chances are that Terry, when she went to finally report this horrible thing, was totally shut down.

That's why I was like, she wasn't crying, she was matter of factly telling the story. And it's like, like. Well, yeah. At seven years old or whatever, she was like, emotions are not going to help you.

No, I bet they're. They count against you very badly with a mother like that.

Definitely. So she. Yeah, she had no emotional attachment to this story at that point, which is insane. This story reminds me of Sylvia Lykins, that horrible story I covered a while ago. Yeah. In that the mom made. Would make the other kids beat up one of them. No, no. So she would make. Make them be involved in it so that they were part of it. You know, and that's probably part of why Terry was so fucking shut down is like she kind of had a hand in it and her in her mind thinking she was responsible too, even though you're obviously not.

Yeah.

So there's like talk of incest. It's brought up in like one or two articles, but they don't. The word incest comes up, but they don't go into details at all. So I don't really know how truthful that is or to what extent that is. See. Okay. So she primarily started to focus her anger and abuse on the two oldest daughters, Susan and Sheila. And according to Terry, Teresa resented that Susan and Sheila were maturing and becoming attractive young women while she was becoming older and couldn't lose any weight. Terry kind of explains it like that, but it's clearly so much more deep seated than that. Yes. She's A monster and an insane person.

And a bad alcoholic. A degenerating alcoholic. Yeah. There's probably parts of her brain are going soft because of the drinking. If it's been going on for long enough. I learned that on Sober House. That can happen to you.

Really? How? Oh my God. But excuse me while I take a sip of my tea that's got whiskey in it.

But that makes perfect sense. And also I bet you the Sons it's like every movie you've ever seen about an abusive parent where eventually the 16 year old boy turns around and goes, I'll beat the shit out of you if you touch me again. But the girls can't. Probably can't do that.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And. Yeah. And the beating. The boys, you know, start beating them up and probably avoid their mother beating the shit out of them because they're part of it, you know, it's. It's really horrific.

Yeah.

Especially if. Yeah. So she would. So because of this she would start administering forced feedings to the girls, which. Can you imagine that kind of fucking torture?

Sorry. Because they were. Were young and pretty and thin.

So she would give them force feedings. She would make boxes and boxes of like Mac and cheese, you know, like the Mac and cheese and put spoonfuls of lard in it and sit there and make them eat all of it. And sucks to a point where one of the girls had her front teeth were broken because of the forcing for the holy. Yeah.

That's a hard thing to do for.

To eat like that or to break your teeth. Really?

Yeah.

I mean, I've never done it.

Yeah, it's. It's not. It's pretty solid.

Oh my God. Jesus Christ. All right, so. And if you threw up, you had to eat it like force. You know, when you eat so much you get full and it's so painful and horrible. Can you. I think that to me is. It's such a telling torture.

But also it's so self serving.

Yeah. It's very fucking. It's really, really sad. So Theresa started to believe that her fourth husband had turned Susan, one of the older daughters, into a witch because. So she really received the worst of Theresa's abuse. After one severe beating, Susan ran away from home and she was picked up by police and placed in a psychiatric hospital. And she told the staff of the abuse at the hands of her mother. And Theresa denies the abuse and told the hospital staff that Susan had mental issues. So they didn't investigate and they released Susan back to her mother. As they do in the 80s Fuck. Yep.

How old was Susan? Sorry.

I think she was a teenager. A lot of the details of, like, age and year and that sort of thing is hazy. Probably because Terry's the one giving them the info and there's not a lot of. Oh, right, know. There's not a lot of info to back it up. So it's hard to tell. So, of course Susan's super punished for this. She gets beatings with while they wear a pair of leather gloves, which I don't understand. Like, this part is in a couple of the articles.

Is it. It makes it more painful or something, I would imagine.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know.

I thought maybe you would know, like. Oh, yeah, leather, whatever.

Not slapping gloves. Slapping with gloves. Like a British gentleman would.

No, they, like, put leather gloves on and beat her up. I wonder if it, like, delivers a punch heart. I don't know. Someone will tell us. She also forced her. Okay. So they all had to beat her up. She got handcuffed to the bed and the other children had to stand guard and watch her make sure she can.

Get out of there. The handcuffs aren't enough.

I know. She makes. She makes her drop out of school. Everyone drops out of school and they're all in, like, high school. Oh, none of them go. Got past eighth grade.

Oh, no.

So this all happened before eighth grade? Oh, yeah.

That's really young.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Very. And they were homeschooled, of course, based on the Bible. And they had. And. And Teresa had a thing called the Board of Education, and it was a paddling board that said the Board of Education on it and they did something wrong.

I've heard of that.

Have you?

Yeah. People's parents having that.

Really?

Yep. It's a funny, abusive pun.

Oh, I know. It's cute. It's cute. It's like. Makes it, man. I got. I got hit with a wooden spoon as a kid a lot. And it is so fucking painful.

Is it really?

I know. Like, it's. It's kind of. It seems. It's like a cute thing, right, that, like, you gotta spank your children and it. Everyone acts like it's. This is how you teach them how to be a good person.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So I got spanked a lot as a kid with both a wooden spoon and a hand. It fucking hurts and it's terrifying. And the parent is really pissed off while they're doing it. So it's not like a teaching a lesson. It's. You've. I am so fucking angry at you.

That's an adult out of control.

Yeah.

With a child.

Yeah.

Well. And also it was very common back then.

Yeah, it was.

It was not only common for people to get, well, abused legitimately.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They didn't think.

[Advertiser Voice]

They still.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A lot of people don't think that's abuse.

Right, right. But also other people's parents would k. Would slap kids or, you know, spank them. It was always this idea of spanking, like, on the butt was less bad.

It's. They call it a smack. I don't know. Why am I oversharing this stuff?

Well, it's very relevant and I'm sure it brought up this story. Brought up a lot of.

[Georgia Hardstark]

For you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's up.

Yeah. I hope my mom doesn't sue me for defamation.

Shit.

No one's going to go to fucking little house of horror cultures or. Yeah, Damn it. Should I not?

Okay.

It's gonna go in my memoir anyways. I might as well say it on the podcast. No, I'm kidding. Okay, so let's get to the fucking shit. They're having an argument in 1983, Teresa shoots Susan in the chest during this argument.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The bullet gets lodged in her back. Teresa makes the sons put her in the bathtub. And Susan gets nursed back to health by her mother.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep. She doesn't die, but it all takes place at home. Yeah.

Good God. It's a hellhole.

Yeah. And Terry says that this was the only time that she didn't see her mother hitting Susan. So it was almost like nursing her back to health made her feel motherly and needed and so she wasn't abusive. Isn't that insane?

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Where were the neighbors or. I mean, gunshots are taking place.

Well, the house. They showed a photo of the house that they moved into. The, like two bedroom. It definitely looks secluded. Oh. Like in a Sacramento kind of way.

I was picturing it as like apartments.

No. Yeah, it's an. They call it an apartment, but it's not.

Okay.

It's like a two bedroom, small place.

Okay.

And it looks like it's, you know, out in the. And wherever.

Yeah.

But, yeah, you know, so. Okay, so she's a nurse, back to health. She survives, and in 1984, she works up the courage and tells her mom she wants to move out. And Teresa says, okay, you can move out, but you have to let me remove the bullet from your back because if you tell on me, that can be used as evidence.

Oh, my gosh.

This is horrific. Right?

It's unbelievable.

I know. I was like, maybe this week I'll do like an Old timey murderer. That's, like a little more.

Nope.

And then I was like, oh, I found this, and I have to do it.

It's incredible. It's insane.

So Theresa, Susan agrees. They put her down on the kitchen floor, and Terry says, I was basically the nurse. I had to administer all these things. But either the brother or Teresa took the bullet out. I can't really tell. But they fed her a ton of liquor and malarial capsules. Do you know what those are? Imagine their sleeping pill. Tell she's out cold, and then take the bullet out and flush it down the toilet. All right. Infection sets in. Susan's skin turns yellow from jaundice. They handcuff her to the kitchen table, and she lays dying on the floor. This gets really horrific. Teresa tells her kids that Susan was possessed by Satan and the only way to purge the demon was with fire.

Oh, no.

She makes Robert and Bill, the brothers, drive Susan to Sierra Nevada, Interstate 80. Do you know where that is? Mm. So it's like, out in the wilderness, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, the 80, if from Sacramento. You take the 80. That's. Then you're.

I think, like, farmland and wilderness. Okay.

It's. I'm pretty sure it's on the way up to the mountains. Like.

Yeah.

If I'm not.

That sounds wrong.

It's like, toward Roseville.

Okay. All right. They had packed all of her possessions into trash bags. They pull over, they put the trash bags down.

[Advertiser/Guest Voice]

They.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They put Susan on top of him, and they poured gasoline, and they lit her on fire.

Is she still alive?

Yeah. I wasn't gonna say anything.

Well, you have to tell the whole story. You have to tell the whole story.

I know. And I think she was like, to me, nothing is worse than what those are. The. Those for some reason are the worst to me, is being lit on fire.

By your fucking family.

Yeah, but dying of fire to me is specifically horrific. Yeah. I can't. That's like, the one I can't about. And I'm doing a story about it. They've. And it's just a warning on cold case files. They show her. Oh, they show the crime scene photos so they. She's found. They put the fire out. They have no idea who she is. They. They think that. Okay. They have no idea who she is. They make a. They make a drawing of what they think that she looks like. Fucking case goes cold. They have no idea who she is. And back at home. So it's like a year later, late spring of 85. Teresa starts to make her now 20 year old daughter Sheila work as a sex worker. She like, pimps her out and she's earning hundreds of dollars a day. And Theresa almost seems like she's proud of her. And she's eased up on the daily beatings. And Sheila's actually allowed to come and go as she pleases, which is rare. And then Teresa accuses Sheila of giving Teresa an STD through the toilet seat. And so she beats her, hogties her, and locks her in a, like, tiny broom closet that it's hot as fuck, there's no ventilation, and she forbids her other children to give Sheila food or water or to open the closet door. And Terry, one day when she was gone, disobeys her and hands and gives her a beer, which is almost like, you can imagine, that's probably all there was in the house.

Yes.

And she's this like, kid, this teenage kid who's like, doesn't know what else to do. Here's a beer. So she, I guess Theresa just said she wanted Sheila to confess, but either way she's gonna get beaten. And so she does confess, she doesn't believe her. And so she eventually dies in the closet.

Oh, my God.

Yeah. So three days later, she dies of dehydration and starvation. They leave her body in the closet for an additional three days before even discovering that she's dead. So the mom and son puts the body, her body in a cardboard box, tapes it shut, and they take it to the mountains where they dumped it near Truckee, the Truckee Airport. And then they get back to the apartment and realize the smell hasn't gone away. And so Teresa orders Terry to set the apartment on fire.

This woman is a fucking lunatic.

Guess what? She's still alive.

What?

She's still alive. Theresa, the lunatic mom.

Oh, to this day, yeah. Oh, sorry. For a second I was like, that was like, get the crazy twist.

No, no, no. There's sadly no crazy twist.

Okay. Okay.

But the dead, the dying and dead is done at this point.

I mean, this is. This is.

How have you not heard about this?

I know, when you said the name, it sounds familiar.

Well, it's like, how have you not heard about this?

I know, isn't that crazy? It sounds super familiar, but yeah, but.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I didn't, I didn't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know these details at all.

But this might be when your parents were like, we're not watching the news for a while.

Yeah, but 85. I would have. Like, if I heard that on the news, then I would have been like.

But here's the thing about 85 is that those are just when the bodies were found. Two separate bodies.

Oh. And there were cold cases.

And there were cold cases, and they weren't even linked.

Okay.

I think that the investigator on Cold Case Files was like, yeah, we talked to them and were like, this is weird, but they died in totally different ways. But there were two young teenagers, but they didn't put it together. Fucking.

Yeah.

So you wouldn't have heard much.

Okay, that's right.

She didn't come forward until 93. But you still. You were in Sacramento then.

Stop it. I couldn't have known.

Oh, I'm not blaming you. I'm just talking about how fucking weird it is that this, like, one of the most insane cases I've ever heard of. Child abuse, and we've never heard of it. Right.

I. I moved. I was in San Francisco by 93.

Which just makes me want. That made me want to tell the story more because it's like.

No, I can see it. How the fuck. Because it's this weird. Oh, my God. Like, that idea of the crazy alcoholic mom that, like, keeps everybody in the house. Like, no one's in school. And it's just mayhem.

An ugly, sad place of constant torture.

And someone that just shoots people. Like, what. I mean, kills her own.

It's just so crazy that this one person against five, and she is so manipulative and insane and dangerous and scary that she's able to tell her sons to go kill their sister. And they obey.

It's their mother.

Yeah.

It's their primary.

It's horrible. Yeah. And it's all they've ever known.

Yeah.

All right. So she tells her to light the apartment on fire in the middle of the night. She sprinkles lighter fluid around the apartment and lights it on fire. But it didn't spread because I think they're. Because there were neighbors. So apparently there were neighbors who know knows. So the fire department responds. There's not a lot of damage. Sheila's body is discovered a few hours after it had been disposed of in the box by fucking poor fishermen. Jesus, can you imagine? And they show that, too on Cold Case Files. Like, I was so surprised. And I was sitting here with Vince, and he looks up right when that happens. And I was like, don't look.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't look.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So I was like, you're gonna think. I said, don't look, because you're gonna think I'm fucking insane, that I'm watching this. He doesn't want to see. He, like, went in the other Room.

He also knows you're insane.

Yes, that.

Just quick FYI, he does.

You're right. He likes wrestling.

Exactly. Everybody's got their thing.

Yeah.

Right.

Okay. They again classified as a Jane Doe. After leaving the Sacramento apartment, they go, they all go into hiding. They finally it that the lighting on fire is finally their ticket out of there. And they all break up and spread around. And Terry gets to escape her mom. At 16, the mom relocates to Vegas with one of the sons, Robert knorr. And in 91, he's arrested after fatally shooting a bartender in a Las Vegas during an attempted robbery.

I mean, these are born and bred criminals that are like now go out into the world to just reign free.

Yeah. Good luck with having any kind of normal life.

Yeah, you, any conflict you have, you're going to start shooting people.

Yeah, Terry, I mean, God bless her, she seems, she seems like she was able to straighten her fucking life out. Wow. It's unbelievable that she is able, I mean, watch it. Just to like hear her talk.

I can't wait.

So they move back, then they move to. So he goes to prison for 16 years. Mom relocates to Salt Lake City where she becomes a caretaker, an elderly woman's caretaker. This dude hires her to take care of his mother. Ailing mother lives there. And when. Okay, let me keep telling this. Okay.

This is gonna, that's gonna turn out bad, right?

No. Oh, okay. No, it turns out like it turns out. And we had no idea. You know what I mean? So. No. No one else gets killed. Okay, good. So Terry takes Sheila's identification card to pass herself off as an illegal adult. Like she, she becomes. You do what you gotta do.

Yes.

So when she finally goes to share her story and they finally believe her because of her detailed descriptions down to the chipped teeth of the Jane Doe they had because the box that Sheila was put in, they knew was, that was the only piece of evidence they had. It was a box from a movie theater of like popcorn. So they went to every movie theater and was like, is this your brand? Is this your box? And it wasn't. And it turns out that Robert worked at a movie theater and had taken the box from movie theater. So even that corroborated everything, just these details, everything matched. So the detectives also took out the subfloor that had been stained with Sheila's body to test it. And in November 93, Theresa Knorr is arrested at her home in Salt Lake City where she fucking lives with this elderly mother. And, and the son who had hired her was like, we had no idea. She was a sweet old lady. Yeah. She did some weird shit. And she said she liked taking care of my mom because she had. Or she liked. She was, like, really motherly to my grandkid, to my children who are daughters, because she said she had always wanted a daughter of her own and only had sons.

Oh, my God.

So he didn't believe it for a long time.

Okay.

You know what I mean? Yeah. Because, like, you left. You're like, the guilt over leaving your mom with a fucking murderer.

Yeah.

Pretty high.

Yeah. You got to turn around and face that.

You're not a good judge of character, it turns out.

It turns out you don't know your shit.

You thought you were a Ying.

Engage your gut.

Yeah. Listen to your heart.

Eyes open, please.

Eyes open. Heart.

Make a reference. See, these days, we have LinkedIn. That would never happen. Okay, go ahead.

She's charged with two counts of murder, two counts of conspiracy to commit murder, two special circumstance charges, multiple murder and multiple murder by torture. William is sentenced to probation and to undergo therapy for participating in Sheila's murder. And in exchange for his testimony, the prosecution dropped all charges against Robert, save for one count of being an accessory after the fact in Sheila's murder. And also, the mom was like, I'll plead guilty. Theresa was like, I'll plead guilty if you let my sons off. Really? I have a hard. Okay, here's what I have a hard time with. Do the sons deserve any. Anything? I mean, at what point in their age.

I'm not. I feel like I am not qualified to debate that in any way, except.

I just want to bring it up because I can't give a judgment either way.

Well, my. Like, my first reaction is they don't. Because they were raised to kill people. This woman, they had no choice.

It was out of fear at that point and mind control that they did it.

Yes. And just the taut reactions of. This is normal living. Yeah, but when you say that, then you basically. There's so many murderers that you can say that about because they had equally nightmarish childhoods, so they could actually.

Yeah, exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nothing is black and white.

Right? So, like, yeah, Ted Bundy was, like, abused and sexually molested, but he's still held responsible for what he did. It's almost like. Well, at the point where they're 18 and on, then. Are they responsible?

No, no, no. I think for Ted Bundy, I think it's like, once you've killed your 12th woman, it's on you.

Okay.

No, I mean, I'M saying, these boys, I don't think they would have lived these lives.

Definitely not.

They wouldn't have killed their own sisters if their mother didn't make them participate.

Definitely.

I would guess that. I mean, that's like.

To me, it's like the beatings and that sort of thing. No, they're not held responsible for that.

But the murder's the same. It's all the mother's doing.

I know, and I know people are gonna argue with me and be like, you're victim blaming for sure. Right. Which I understand. And I'm not saying I'm right. I'm just like, how. At what point do we. At what point is it. Is there a period at the end of their night?

Well, that's what judges and juries and all those. The people that look at all the information. That's the point. Definitely where they go, okay, this is a person that had, you know, was forced into this horrible life, an entire lifestyle. Is this person that liked it. Is this a person that didn't just kill sisters, but then went on and attacked people in the neighborhood? Or, like.

And wanted. And it's. Yeah. So Teresa pleads guilty, pleads guilty because of that, and on the condition also that she was spared the death penalty, just like you. Now I can be like, period about you. On. In October 95, she sentenced to two consecutive life sentences. She's incarcerated in California Institute for Women in Chino. So she's fucking in. Is that the Inland Empire fire? She's in the Chino. Yeah.

I don't know.

It might be. She'll be eligible.

You should go there.

You should go there now and go to Ivy League school. She'll be eligible for parole in 2027. If she lives to see it. She'll be 80 years old. Oh, she's still alive.

I wonder if she's drinking inside in the clink.

Some. Some wine.

Some toilet wine.

Would you take a sip of that? If someone made sure you not made you. But if you were, like, dared.

No. I don't really respond to daring. That's not my jam.

Yeah. You don't seem like a person who.

No.

Would be challenged.

No, no. I mean, are you saying. Would I even be curious about the experience of what toilet wine tastes like?

I guess the word toilet is hard now.

It ruins it. I mean, would I have prison wine.

In a bucket maybe?

Prison wine in a bucket. Bucket that's quite clean. The first time ever the bucket was used was for the prison wine.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Which I'm sure they have access to clean buckets then.

Yes. Yeah, I'm sure they. There's a whole program set up. But I would want to taste what non toilet created prison wine tasted like.

I agree. And I.

That would be fascinating.

I can't imagine there's a ton of prisoners who are like, yes to toilet wine themselves. I'm an alcoholic, but I won't fucking drink. No, I'm gonna say no to toilet wine.

Who knows? Who knows? I mean.

But anyway, you gotta do what you gotta do. Teresa Noor.

God, that was crazy. She's awful.

Awful.

I don't.

Yeah, so I, I, Yeah, it's. Watch the Cold Case file.

I will.

And did you know they're all. They're all streaming on. You can get them on demand somewhere. Not on demand, but like on your dvr. No, wait, on like if you have directions or apple or whatever. Oh, yeah. Every single one is on. Except for that one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are you serious?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I had to go to YouTube to find it. It's on YouTube.

It's so dark. It makes it extra dark when you're from the place where you hear the story because you can totally. I can picture her house dress, I.

Think I kept asking, like, me in it. I was like, I'm gonna ask Karen where this is. This is insane.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can picture her house dress like a flowery nurse's. Like big, dirty, dirty.

Kind of like country powder blue.

Yeah. Slipper. Like little tiny flowers on it. Slippers. Essentially what I fucking wear every day, let's be honest.

Oh, man, it's sharp.

She bought it at pick and save.

It's dark. It's dark. There's bad vibes. Okay, we're back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are there any updates on this case?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I have some updates on this horrifying story. After dispersing, Terry and Teresa both lived in Salt Lake City but didn't know the other was there. Terry was working at a grocery store in the neighborhood that Teresa lived in prior to her arrest. And after Teresa's arrest, she was investigated for the 1983 unsolved murder case of her older sister, Rosemary Norris, who was found strangled to death. The police determined she was uninvolved with this murder and it remains unsolved. How frustrating. Terry knorr died in 2011 at age 41.

It's such a dark story.

I know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like those early ones that we did. It's just the worst of humanity.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Truly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So crazy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, no, no nothing.

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Well, these are just because people very often tweet us. Have you read this? Have you seen this? And there are things that are happening modern day and they're often the craziest or the most fascinating kind of true crime of today. And we don't always talk about it, which I know. It's like it's what a lot of people are in it for. Yeah.

And I wish we could do. There's so many of those. I'm like, this is insane. But there's no details yet.

Exactly. It's a breaking story.

Right?

So what I did was I started my this Week's murder. Didn't. I wasn't making any good kind of like strategic decisions as I was watching the case because I stumbled upon a BBC show that it was a Reddit. It was a Reddit link to a BBC show called BBC Horizons that I think has been on in England for a long time. This is what it looked like because they're. Each one had different opening credits. That one looked like 1978 and one looked like the 90s.

It's like they're unsolved mysteries. It's.

Yeah. And so it was like the Mystery of Blank. So like there's a thing in Florida called the Florida Circle. I don't know if you've ever heard of that, but I was watching half of that when I was like, stop watching tv.

Because it was like, oh my God.

Can you get it online?

I mean, where can you get it?

You can. It's just put into. See, here's the problem. It was a Reddit link, so I was watching off of that and then suddenly the title started turning roug Russian writing. And then at one point I tried to click off and then it turned into like a Russian looking Facebook page. Uh oh, did that get backed? It said something like the name of it. It wasn't Facebook. It was like, okay, Summertime. And then I was like, oh, I should throw this computer away now.

Absolutely, they're watching you. But now.

But I only have half my script done, so I have to keep it for a little while. But I mean like, yeah, I made a terrible. You don't click links on Reddit. But I did.

Yes, you do. Well, anyway, that's the fun part of Reddit.

It makes it exciting. So anyway, the story that I was watching and going to do isn't really a murder. Like it's a lot of it's a fascinating story about a mummy that they.

Found.

In Iran that that or the seller was in Iran that had it. And it turned out it was from Pakistan and it was very newsworthy because the only mummies have ever been from Egypt. Egypt is the only place that did ancient mummification ritual.

So this one might have been stolen.

So well, they didn't know. And it was like, look kind of weird and different and then you see it. It's like it drew me in so quickly. And then it was like, but it turned into a, like ancient, ancient Persia. Fucking Xerxes. Like, it was the cuneiform writing on it said that it was the daughter of Xerxes who was the ruler of the Persian Empire. I mean, it's all this shit. I have no idea what I'm actually saying right now.

Sounds smart. You sound really smart.

The BBC can do that for you?

Yeah, they can.

I'm gonna watch one special. Anyway, it turned out. So this woman who's actually. I mean, I guess I'll just. I wasn't going to talk about this one at. But it's really cool because the woman who started looking into it was a scientist named Asma Ibrahim. And she taught herself how to read cuneiform so that she could figure out what it said on the stone coffin part.

Oh my God.

And then that's how she figured out it said, I'm the daughter of Xerxes. So it was this Persian princess from the ancient Persian empire. But then she was like looking at all the details, whatever. She's sending things off to experts all around the world. So they have the cuneiform expert in London, they send the mat that's underneath the actual mummy off to get carbon dated. They do all these things, right? And then there is a scientist that's in, I think it said he was the leading archaeologist in Iran. And he's the one that came out and said we don't have mummies in Iran and they don't have them in Pakistan. They are only from Egypt. Therefore, if this is a Persian princess, then that changes. Like history books. That means that there must be. It was just this whole thing. Right. Well then as the information starts to come back and this Dr. Ibrahim is investigating everything, she's starting to notice little like were quirky things from standing out.

Yeah.

So the cuneiform looks weird and she, you know, that's why she sent it to the guy in London that was the expert and she, you know, there's like that little differences in the mummification process or whatever. And eventually they come to find out they send it off to get X rayed because they were like. Well, in the Egyptian mummification process, they. They empty out the body of the internal organs, they dry out the inner body, they put a drying agent in it, they put the heart back in. Because the heart is where the heart is where your brain they believed your brain was.

So cram that brain out, you got.

To have that brain. They pull your actual brain out through your nose, right? Yep. They stick a thing in there and they basically mix your brain around until it's jelly and your brain runs out. Your nose. No, no, no, no, no, no. Yes. And. But you still have your heart, which is your real brain, which I thought was very beautiful.

Yeah.

And so when they x rayed it, the heart was in there. It was no, there were no internal organs. It was all the things the brain was, you know, whatever. But they start to notice like the Egyptians, it was very. It's like surgical precision. So the incision that they would make to take the inner organs out was 3 inches. This one was 8 inc on this body.

So it's a novice, right.

They, the Egyptians would go up the nose to do that mixing thing with the brain. They, on this mummy had broken all these bones up in the palate. So they had done. It's not the way. Because this was like a sacred ritual. So they don't just like fuck it up.

Especially if it's like a princess.

Especially. Yes, exactly. Especially Xerxes daughter. He was from, according to that one huge movie. He was humongous. Okay.

So.

Then Dr. Asma Ibrahim finds pencil lines on the outer wooden box. Pencils were invented 250 years ago or 300 years ago, I think she said. Or they said lead. Lead pencils.

Yeah, yeah.

So they're like, this is a total, this is bullshit. Then they get them the carbon dating from the mat that was underneath the mummy back and it was made 50 years ago.

Wow.

So they're like, what the fuck is this? So then they get a doctor to cut it open and. Oh, also they, they had taken CT scans just so they could see inside. Like the X ray. The X ray. X ray shows you like through, but then the CT scans, it's like if you got cut all the way down, they can see each individual slice.

Yes.

And that's how they discovered that the body that had been mummified, the spine was broken in two places at the neck and at the lower back and.

Oh my God. Oh my God. Yeah.

So they're like, okay, this is not this Persian princess. What was her name? Like Rodrigue or something really hard to pronounce. And they open up the mummy and you can see it on this show.

They show it so fucking cool. They're curling.

Cut it open. This doctor, they just saw it open like with a bone socket mummified. Well, because the outer cloth that the mummy is wrapped in, so you're bandaged like a Halloween mummy inside, your arms are crossed over your chest. That's how you know it's royalty and then. And then they wrap the whole body in a resin saturated cloth. Right.

So it hardens and that's what makes it hard. Got it.

So to cut that open, they pull it apart and it had gray hair and it was a woman. And they actually made a computer generated image of what her face might look like based on.

So cool when they do that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Based on the skull and then based on the area that she. That they said it was found, which was near the Afghan border.

They're like.

Women of this age usually look like this.

Yeah, yeah.

So now they have a murder case on their hands.

Shut your fuck. So when is she from?

What's that?

When is she. When is she from?

She had only died, so they can't. They mummified the body. Like when they discovered all this, they backdated. It was like she'd only died four years ago or something. And so someone went and got their.

Fucking their mat from their back porch.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yep.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wait, let me see if I can.

I don't know why that's just such a weird part to me where it's like, well, we gotta put her on a mat.

Yeah. Why they didn't. Oh, she died in 1996.

Holy.

That's what they found out, but I can't remember. I. I don't have it where that compares to what. But basically what happened is in the mummification process, they had to like, they had to collect all their. They had to make their plan. They had to assemble the team of stone masons and these forgers and all these people that would be able to make this mummy look so realistic. Because when you see it, it's actually really beautiful and cool looking. There's like. They have this gold. It's like a crown of cypress trees as her crown. And then this face mask that they basically made, it's based on a different. Different mummy. Very early mummies face mask. So it doesn't look like King Tut. Yeah, it's much more like handmade looking. It's really cool. They basically just had these perfect forgers and then just made these little tiny.

People were in on it.

A lot of people were in on it. And then they don't know if they robbed a grave to get like the freshest body or if they killed somebody. But the person who died, died violently, which is why they have think it was a. It's a murder case.

I am in shock right now.

Isn't it? Nuts up.

That is the craziest story.

Here's the other thing. Since this. Since this time two more quote unquote. Persian mummies have been offered on the black market for $6 million each. When this one showed up first, and.

It was sell a mummy.

What's that?

You can sell a mummy on the black market.

The black market. The antiquities market. The black market for antiquities.

Antiquities.

You can do anything you want because it's just people robbing places.

Yeah.

And then selling these.

That's why they're artifacts. That's why there are tomb robbers and shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But this mummy was estimated. They, they were getting prices up to a billion dollars because this mummy was so groundbreaking of like, oh, my God, there's never been a Persian mummy before.

Well, I wonder if they'd even buy it if they knew it was a fake because it's just done so well. Well, well.

But it, but it's done so well.

[Advertiser Voice]

But you've.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's a murdered body inside of it.

Yeah. Yeah. But do people who buy black market mummies give a. Yeah, I think they'd.

Still want it to be a legit mummy because also then you're spending all that money. They're spending that money for the history of it. They want that. Like, this is from the sands of time.

Or I would take a fat discount to be like, no, this is just really well done for. But of a dead person. Hey, man. And they're like, yeah, give me some coke while you're, while you're in this. Some heroin.

Oh. Cause they're just into bad stuff because they're black market.

I think of black market buyers and sellers as like scary spies. Like, they're not, it's not, they're not, it's not historians.

Not in the least. You know what? You just provided me my transition. Now I'm gonna tell you this next story, but did you hear about this one? The 20 year old British model who. She went to Milan because she believed that she had gotten a modeling job. And I bet she.

And she did. And it went great.

Yeah, it went great. And now she is Carla Devignani. I don't know how to say her name. No, she, she had an agent that sent her and the agent whose name is Phil Green, said that this was a recognized studio in the city center of Milan. So he didn't think he was sending her to some fly by night thing.

Sure. Plus, like, you're like, someone's paying to send me to Milan. Like, this has to be legit. Yeah.

When she gets there, a man grabs her by the neck. One man grabs her by the neck, another one injects her with a dose of anesthetic of ketamine. So so much of it that it knocks her to the ground. Then she gets put into a suitcase. No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Not small places, please.

Yes, small places. Yep. And then they drive her around unwinding unpaved roads for more than two hours, bound hand and foot with tape across her mouth.

Oh, my God.

She's taken to a rural house in northern Italy and she's kept handcuffed to a wooden dresser. And. And then she is put on sale online on the Dark Web, dude, this Dark Web? The Dark Web. She's put on sale, but then at the same time, a ransom demand gets sent to her agent for $300,000.

He knows at this point for how much?

$300,000, that's not a lot of money, right? I mean. Yeah, you'd think if you're going to do a crime like this, you might want to.

It. What if he. He's like, okay, just shoot for the moon. Yeah.

So she. When she's stuck there, she tells him she has a child. The person, the man that's there. And so then he puts her back in the suitcase. I don't know if. Yeah, I think he does. And drives her to the British Embassy in Milan.

Why is this funny?

He drops her off at the British Embassy because she has a kid.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And he reported that killing mothers was against the rules of the shadowy criminal organization that this guy belonged to. What, they end up arresting him? He is.

Wait, they. So wait, they were gonna sell her for sex or to be murdered like this was someone they were selling to get killed?

Killed? I don't. Do they sell people just to be killed?

Probably, yeah. I don't know.

I don't either. I'm. I'm sure. For sex or to be a sex slave or to be trafficked.

Right.

Have some terrible thing happen, you know.

I mean, it's so sad because if we're hearing about this story, there's a million others that didn't end up right.

How many people that don't have agents, that don't have anybody that are like, oh, somebody thinks I'm a model or.

Money to pay ransom.

Yeah.

Oh, my God.

So the guy's name is Lucas Powell Herba, and he's from. He's a Polish citizen with British residency and he's the one that drops her off and then he later gets arrested and they also were holding her passport so she couldn't leave the country until she gave evidence at her pre trial hearing.

What?

Because when she. When she told the story, they didn't believe her. Her?

Are you. They wouldn't let her go home.

Right. Because they were like, we have to see what's going on. We don't understand what this is all about. And then it turned out that her. Her agent, the. The cops, like, everybody were. And then the guy that did it, were all telling the exact same story. And they were like, okay, it really happened.

They apologized. Say you're sorry.

That's what's important.

Milan, say you're sorry. Okay, that's awful.

Are you ready for the next one?

Absolutely.

And, Steven, tell me when I go. Too long? Cause it might be too long.

No, we're still good.

Okay.

Four hours later. For real.

So this is my favorite because for, like, in the early 2000s, there was a viral video that, like, an apartment website put out that had a girl. It looked like night vision video, and it was a girl coming out of a cupboard in an apartment in New York. And it was this story, quote, unquote, was that she was living in the apartment and they didn't know.

Yeah.

Well, that was all viral. That was all fake.

Oh, it was? Yeah.

And she crawled out in the scariest way. And I was. When we found that video and didn't know, we watched it at work 50 times. We would just stand around screaming and watching. It was amazing. I mean, it was an amazing piece of literature. Fiction.

Yeah.

Well, here's a story. I found this happened in Pittsburgh. Jerome Kennedy decided to stall, install a camera inside his attic after he was hearing noises coming from the ceiling above his bedroom. No, According to. That's according to police, he called them a few days earlier because he heard someone up there at night. But they didn't find anything. So he decided to put cameras in his attic. What would you do to see what was going on?

I would leave everything.

I certainly wouldn't take the time to put cameras in. But he did it. And when he gets the footage back, the footage shows his neighbor, Robert Harvilla, have real crawling through the attic. So they live in a condo thing where they share a wall. And he has gone up into his attic and then crawled over into this guy's side.

I know.

And he's carrying in the video. You can see him. It's so fucking creepy.

How do I not see this?

He's carrying a drill and a light. And then he just lies on the vent that overlooks Kennedy's bed and his daughter's cr. About. What does that say? For about 30 minutes. So he just looks through the vent for half an hour.

You're just being watched, sleeping?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What if he just was like. I just relaxes me. A nice sweet baby. A little sweet baby.

I like to see other people's lives. I'm not perverted.

Not even when they're awake. I just want to see how happy they look when they're sleeping.

The man who did its attorney who got caught on video told the Washington Post that he has no criminal record whatsoever. And they're making this seem like a negative situation, but it's really not. There are some things that haven't been said that'll clear everything up eventually.

Oh, okay.

So what are some of those things?

You're mentally ill.

He was installing a mobile for that baby, but he just wanted to make sure.

Oh, can you imagine walking into your. Your daughter's bedroom in the morning and there's just a mobile that's not that.

You didn't put there.

A surprise mobile with the scary mobile mobile. It's just all fucking skeletons and nightmares. It's just got nightmares.

I mean, I just. God bless this. That's my favorite. Like, that's my favorite.

Did he go to jail? Do they still live next to me?

I mean, he didn't do anything wrong, according to his lawyer. Why would he go to jail? He didn't. It's a super positive. Sit. Negative. It's positive to be crawling in the attic. With a drill. With a drill. Okay, here's the last one. This is insane and awful. And you probably heard about it because a bunch of people sent us this one from the BBC news. Oh, that. Sorry, that was from the Washington Post. The story of the man in the attic was from the Washington Post.

Okay.

And the first, the mummies from BBC Horizon. The Horizon series, which my new favorite show. It is their stuff on it was so cool. I want to watch all of them.

It reminds me of Steven. What was that book you got us? The Lifetime Mysteries of the Unexplained. Yeah. Yes. From the. Like with the COVID like the leather covers and the different Time Life series. That's what it reminds me of. Can I tell you my new favorite show really quickly? I meant to tell you about this earlier. It's called Suddenly Rich. It's like on tlc and it's just people who suddenly wouldn't like get a windfall and it's like these.

And how they can't handle it, how.

Happy it makes their lives. It's just like if you are reading about murder and you positive thing. Oh, it's like one guy who like you had a throw at a basketball game. All these like shots and if you did you won all this money. And he was like a poor kid from like South America who had come on a scholarship and how to work his ass off and then like suddenly won this money and this woman who found like a painting in the trash in New York and it was worth a million. Like, it's just this like super cool show.

It was the best dude finding. Like. Did you see the documentary about the lady that who found the Jackson Pollock painting?

Yeah. No, I didn't see it, but it was similar to that where it's this like famous artist and it turned out it was stolen and all this crazy shit. Yes, that's cool. So suddenly rich. Suddenly rich when you need a fucking break.

It's not about my uncle rich. Okay, okay, so this one is fucked up. It happened in Denmark. A respected freelance journalist named Kim Wall who was researching a feature about a man named Peter Madsen who had built his own private 40 ton submarine. What called the UC3 Nautilus. Yes.

Oh, I did hear this one.

He built that through crowdfunding in 2008. And she went down to meet him to take a tour. It's not supposed to hold people, but they can show.

She was writing about it according.

Yeah, she was doing a human interest piece.

That's what's so troubling to me about this one, is that I wouldn't be like, don't go alone. It's like you're a journalist and you're writing a piece about this person.

A person who runs two companies and is a very relatively public figure in his country for as much I as.

Where like, be careful, don't trust anyone. It's like. But yeah, there's certain situations where you'd be like, well, of course it's fine, it's her job.

But okay, so she meets him there. She's Last seen alive August 10th as she departs with Mr. Madsen on his self made water vessel, underwater vessel. She met around 7 o' clock on Thursday in the harbor area of Copenhagen and she got on the submarine. The last picture of the two of them were in the the subs conning tower taken by a man from a cruise ship. So they saw the little submarine out there and people were taking pictures of them.

I didn't know that. There's a photo of them of the.

Two of them on the submarine. Yeah, yeah. And it's like right before sunset and they. I mean this is all on the Internet, you can see all these pictures.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But then Kim Wall's partner reported her missing the next morning. I believe it was 2:30 in the morning when she never came back from this trip. So initially, Peter Matson told everybody that he had dropped Ms. Wall off after dark that night at the Halvandet restaurant on the northern tip of Rev Chalice, very close to where they originally met. Did you buy that?

It was good. Hey guys, I dropped her off.

There's people in Denmark laughing so hard.

I know.

Do you want Denmark?

Listen to this.

I dropped her off a restaurant. No big deal. The restaurant owner, Bo Peterson, said that the area is very covered by CCTV and he handed the video footage to the police. Soon after that, Peter Madsen changed his story. Then he said that he there was an accident on the submarine while they were on it and he had to bury her body at sea.

What the. That alone, like, if that were true, is just the. Is insane.

If that were true, the first story wouldn't have happened because you would immediately pull out and be like, I'm so traumatized. This horrible thing happened 10 days later. A headless torso that had been weighted down with metal is found in the waters off of Death, Denmark and is identified as Kim Wong. They believe that Mr. Madsen deliberately sank his 40 ton submarine hours after the search for her began.

Oh my God.

So, so here's the bad part. The torso, the arms, legs and head were removed from the body as a result of deliberate cutting.

And.

Which means that he did that to her in his submarine. Which probably means he planned to do it. Because how. What would you have that would cut a person on a submarine? Why would you have that handy? I mean, I don't know. I don't know. Submarines maybe.

There's an answer.

But like, did you bring a hacksaw onto your submarine?

Yeah.

The lead investigator also revealed that the blood found on the sunken submarine was confirmed as Kim Walls. Mr. Matson's lawyer said he does not confess to anything and pleads not guilty.

It wasn't a negative thing.

Yeah. The DNA match doesn't change my client's explanation that an accident happened.

Okay, so happened.

Right. This guy is the skipper and designer of the UC3 Nautilus, a privately owned submarine. And reports describe him as a hobby engineer. It's not clear what his background or training is while building his own crowdfunded submarine, which is insane.

It's like you guys, there's charities that you can crowd, you can give money to.

Give me money to make my own adult Boy submarine. So he gets it built, then he has volunteers and people working on it with him. But then in 2008, he moves on to what they call a more lofty ambition, space exploration. So he's like Denmark's Elon Musk, essentially. So he's now running the Rocket Madsen Space Laboratory, which is also a laboratory.

Please.

What.

What could we call it? A laboratory.

A laboratory filled with aluminum. And that's also funded by donations. The aim is to launch a rocket from a floating platform in the Baltic and send a person into outer space again.

So many hungry children. I mean, do we need to keep giving money to fucking?

I mean, it really doesn't seem like it. So it turned out that he was. They were talking about that he had a dispute with a group of volunteers that were maintaining the sub, and he left them this message on a website. You may think that a curse is lying on the Nautilus. That curse is me. There will not be peace on Nautilus for as long as I exist. Wow.

What a creep.

And seemingly he's talking about these volunteers and some kind of fight that they all got in together or something.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That is so crazy.

Isn't that awful?

Yeah.

And creepy.

And the weird thing is, like, if that were why, why take off her head and limbs? Like, clearly you're hiding something.

Yes.

Shit. Phew. We are back from some epic stories.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Such a bad idea doing that many.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So it's just.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So I'm trying to cover my ass, having not done my homework where it's just like, I have a little bit of this over here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I have a little bit of that over there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're gonna mix them all together and try to make this true crime podcast work.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And so how old were you when you got diagnosed with adhd?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Never.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They won't help. They won't help me.

I've known you for a long. I think I've known you long enough to be able to diagnose you if I wanted to clearly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And, hell yeah, it's been like this since I was about 8 years old.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And they just said that you were a bad kid or you couldn't sit still or you wouldn't pay attention.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They didn't really talk about me. You know what I mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's the problem.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I was just kind of the second one that was also there and sometimes mouthed off. And then mostly it was like, go outside.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I have every kind of med. If you want to try them. We can just do, like, Monday. Monday we could do Vyvanse Tuesday. We can do Adderall.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I've done. I've done my share of Adderall.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're like, why do I feel normal now? And I'm okay, Stop it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Literally just truly balancing myself out while other people are freaking. I freaked my friend out one time. We are doing drugs. And I was so calm. And he was like, why are you like this? And I'm like, I don't know. I feel great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I feel normal for the first time in my life.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love this lifestyle, Karen. I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Listen, I have a great psychiatrist, Okay? I have a great psychiatrist. Okay?

So here's the updates for this slop.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Listen, I have two jobs at this point.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I'm not.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I have two.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're fine.

You're fine.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, so the Persian princess. There's no update for that case. No one has solved the murder of the woman who was mummified, unfortunately, Chloe Ailing. In this case, the person who kidnapped Chloe with the help of his brother Michael is Lucas Herba, if I'm pronouncing that correctly. And he said he claimed he had fallen in love with Ailing and that the two had allegedly staged the kidnapping together to ease her financial struggles following the birth of her son. A lot of quotes from him here. In June 2018, he was sentenced to 16 years and 8 months in prison. Of course, he made an appeal. The sentence was reduced to five years, eight months. He was released in 2022. Chloe continues to model, and she was on celebrity Big Brother UK in 2022. And she also published a memoir called Kidnapped the Untold Story of my abduction. In 2024, the BBC aired a six part series called Kidnapped the Chloe Aing Story. The creepiest story of all of the man crawling around other people's air ducts so he can stare at a baby. That man, Robert Havilla, was found guilty of one count of criminal trespassing and he was to probation and a fine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Mm. Mm. Straight to jail, as they say.

I mean, there's a lot of things.

[Georgia Hardstark]

To be taken into consideration on that one where it's like it was your obsession to go look at a baby.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

Ugh. Every time you say that, I, like, cringe.

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, then we can move on to the Kim Wall story. But I just want everyone listening to know this, that I did not do justice to the Kim Wall story in this. And I did cover it again in more detail and fully in episode 126. So we're gonna rewind that at some point. We're rewinding a story we already did. I love that. Every once in a while there'll be a story where we're like, this sounds familiar. I think we covered this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like you did, but you did it really bad.

Right, Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So this was this time essentially. In January 2018, Madsen was charged with murder, indecent, handling of a corpse, sexual assault. He was sentenced to life imprisonment. In April of the same year, In October of 2020, he attempted to escape from prison after threatening an employee.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But he was, he was brought back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The following year, he was sentenced to 21 months in prison for the attempted escape. And then in 2020, there was a six part TV series called the Investigation and that detailed the indictment and the investigation into him. And then In March of 2022, there was a two part documentary called Undercurrent, the Disappearance of Kim Wall. And in September of the same year, Netflix had their own documentary called into the Deep the Submarine Murder Case. And I think that's when it really blew up, that, of course, that Netflix documentary.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So there's that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I really tried to, like, I think I tried to do all Kim Wall for that and I realized I didn't have enough information and so then I tagged on a bunch of ones that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I had already started.

That's okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I apologize to you and I apologize.

[Karen Kilgariff]

To all of the world, I guess.

[Georgia Hardstark]

For always being a half asser of homework on a podcast where it's all.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Homework all the time.

Turned out okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

God damn it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right, let's head back in and we'll wrap up the. The show. Oh, I didn't think of a positive thing this week.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah, you have to think of one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. You know what? I'm really excited for our tour. No, not fair. Okay.

That's not a thing that happened to you.

You're right.

It's the future. Well, I was going to say I went bowling at this tiny bowling alley in Montrose and it did I show you that picture. It's the cutest. It's like almost a third of the size of a normal bowling alley. And it's totally from like the early 60s, maybe late 50s.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my Go.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it's not all modernized.

No, no, not at all. And it's like it was Dave Anthony's birthday and it was super fun, but you can rent it out for private parties.

Oh, my God. Where's Montrose?

It's the one that's kind of up once again. Up in the Hills. It's kind of by Altadena.

Okay.

Like basically, if you just drive right above Glendale sure, sure, sure.

Oh, okay.

And it was just perfect. It was, like, my favorite party because there was chatting and lots of people.

That I loved, and there wasn't, like, crazy. So you can't talk to anyone, like, at a bar?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And also, people would bowl, but then they would stop bowling because, you know, you only want to do that for a certain amount of time.

I love bowling alley parties. Yeah, that's a great idea.

I think I might have a party there.

I'm going. Can I come? You're like, actually, no, you're not. I just invited myself to.

Steven told me not to invite you.

I just invited myself to your party.

You're automatically invited to the party.

Yay. Yeah, I'm automatically coming. So it's a pause. Okay, good. Um, my dad came over today and helped me with my finances.

Oh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

How was that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was good. He didn't yell. There was a moment where I could hear the tension in his voice. I also don't think he knew what he was doing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think in the long run, all it was was someone was sitting there with me saying, you have to do this now. And there were 14 times where if I had been on my own, you.

Would have just walked away.

There were 14 times like, I'm just gonna do this later. I'm just not gonna do this. And he was like, well, let's just do this, and then we can do that. And I like. And ended up doing it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it worked.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And it just made me. Made me happy that there's a huge.

Weight lifted off your shoulders.

Huge weight. But also, like, kind of get. Gave me that. Like, oh, dad. Like, that's what dads are for.

That's right.

He didn't know what he was doing. He was like, I was going to be a CPA and a. And a something and a money lawyer with our tax lawyer. And I dropped out. And I'm like, what the are you doing here? I thought you knew what you were doing. He's like, I'm not really good with numbers. I thought you were.

Did he really say that?

Yes.

That's so funny.

But he ended up just sitting there while I did a bunch of things. And, like, I had someone to. I was like, well, this number is this. And he was like, you just sat there, and it was great.

That's so good.

So it was really nice.

And, yeah, my dad was very patient when I went through my extreme financial crisis because I never said a word to him about it, because he is so paranoid about money. And he's so. He's been on it, like, he used to lecture me about you have to make sure you get your tax taxes done. From when I was like, in junior high, it was just like a reminder. It would be like. And never. You don't want the government after you. He'd always say, like that.

That's such a dad. My dad did that too. My dad gave me. Got me my first bank account.

It's what they do.

Yeah.

It's what they're into.

He's like braces and a bank account. That's what I can provide you. Not a ton of affection. Not good life advice. Because my life isn't. Is in shambles.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, that's good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm. That makes.

Likes me.

I get a lot of relief from that.

You do too, because it's also your finances. Because it's my favorite murder finances that I screwed up.

Really?

You get. You have a bonus in that we're not gonna get arrested.

Yes, that's very true. But also you. Here's your bonus in me. I could never judge you. If you were like, hey, sorry I lost everything. I'd be like, oh, well, I actually said that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Say.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I said that today, where he. He was like, you got it. You should make sure. Because there's some of. It was my favorite murder stuff. He's like, you should make sure Karen can see all this. So she knows, like, you're playing her well. And I'm like, oh, no, she knows. She knows. And she knows how fucked I've made it, and she's cool with it.

Yeah.

So. Because those huge weight off my shoulders that you are okay with it.

Of course. Here's the thing. At the end of the day. And I'm not. This sound sounds phony. It's only money now. When I don't have money, I don't really feel that way. No. No one does.

No one does.

But truly, people do such terrible things to themselves and to each other because of money. I've seen it happen. It's very bad. And when people are focused on that. Because at the end of the day, think of it. You get a check. Obviously, a lot of us are in. You get into a bad place where you're like, yes, $5,000 would solve this, this, and this. That's true.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But if you were above level and then you had a $5,000 check, this is what happened to me. When I worked, when I had my first big job, all I did was work. And so I had absolutely no Life. And I just collected money and bought cashmere sweaters from J.

Crew.

That's all I did.

Because you thought you had to spend it because you were working so hard.

It was the only thing I could figure out to do to like, oh, maybe this will make me happy. So I had cashmere sweaters in every color. And I was more miserable than I've ever been in my life. And that's when I learned that lesson of, like, I wasn't doing standup. I wasn't performing. I was just a behind the scenes, behind the camera person that was giving all of my creativity to someone else. And it was fucking killing me. So it didn't matter how many fucking.

Cashmere sweaters I had showed up in at work. Because you showed up at a miserable job. Yeah. You know, my thing too is that, like, I've been poor before. I've, like, pretty much up until I was 32, been pretty paycheck. Been paycheck to paycheck from childhood on.

Yeah.

And it's not the fucking. You still can have happiness and survive 100%. Like, you're not not happy because you don't have money. It sucks. And there is a part of you that's unhappy because of it, but you still get to have positive life experiences. So having money is not going to take that away from us.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, and also sometimes when you have to get a little creative, you can have better and more rich life experiences because you're. You're actually kind of in the mix. Whereas I think sometimes when you have money and security, you become very isolated and you also start living lives that other people can't relate to. So you're just kind of like, you.

Know, we're fucking tenacious or what was the other one?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Resilient.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Resilient. This is why I'll always support all the Murderinos who make shit on Etsy and sell it. Like my favorite murderous.

Oh, yeah.

Because, like, I wish I had had that when I was fucking broke.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Make that fucking money, you guys. Create your awesome art projects and the cool shit.

Calligraphy. Yeah, write up some shit.

Amazing. Just don't, don't. There's one person who's selling our logo on something.

Oh, no. You have to make it.

You have to make it.

You have to make it. You have to earn it. And don't be afraid to give us credit since it is our show. Just.

Just plug our show is all we ask.

Yeah, we are you.

Which they do.

Don't pretend you made it up.

Give US credit. Take your. Take your money.

Take your dirty blood money.

Literally. Okay, we're back. I want to say, I don't say anymore I was poor because I say I was broke. That's my lingo now. And I just want to say, like, make that known. I think being white and having that privilege and knowing that makes it so. I had privilege, and poor isn't the word I want to use. You know, we didn't grow up with money at all. I, you know, we struggled.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But, well, in the context, that's what happens. Anytime you pull the context out and you include everybody in it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You immediately, if you understand, like, the white privilege puts you in a different place.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's all.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And that's great to say.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. I mean, then so many little things that my parents even cared that I had a good education. Like, I know those things made it so that. That I wasn't systemically poor. Yeah. I. We were broke. Right. You know what I mean?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, totally. Also, I just want to say that you say you don't have one, a positive thing that week, and then I'm like, you have to do it. And then you give one and I'm like, not good enough. So, you know, I would like to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I would like to acknowledge my privilege.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And being able to think of things easily. And then when you say, I don't know if I can, I'm like, do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It, do it again.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That made me laugh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, yeah. I don't think it's the worst thing to, like, force someone to think of positive things in their life. Let's put it that way.

Yeah, you have them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's a good, like, reset. Just like in the way you're saying, like, if you can reset the lens through which you look at your childhood or the lens through which you look at your experience, it's easier to kind of stay up or get up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, for sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Look at that. Look at us. My medication's working.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hey, give me some.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Give me that psychiatrist number. Everyone, her name is Cheryl. I'm not gonna get it to you. All right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, we're going into what we would name this episode now. It was originally named Harvard, too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can't beat it.

Sorry. What else is there?

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's a hands down situation here, I guess.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All the halls, when we talk about Rebecca Hall, Michael C. Hall. All the halls we could call it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Also, of course, we're talking about Janet. Little Shop of Horticulture is cute.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I still love that. My son, New Jersey. That's right. Virginia. New Jersey. Jersey. All right. Well, thanks for listening here in 2026. Let's hear ourselves say goodbye in 2017.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I wonder if I do it in four parts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You guys, thanks for listening.

We love you.

Stay sexy.

Don't get murdered. Bye. Bye. Yeah. Elvis, want a cookie?

[Advertiser Voice]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Mimi, want a cookie? Mimi? Elvis, that was El. Yeah. He's like, yes.

[Advertiser Voice]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

This is Bethany Frankel from Just be with Bethenny Frankel. It is a new year and everyone is trying to get it together. If we are making a fresh start for ourselves, why wouldn't we make a fresh start for our dogs? Biggie and Smalls are my babies and I love just food for dogs because it is real. It is fresh. It is 100% human grade food. Just food for dogs is the number one vet recommended fresh dog food. Go to justfoodfordogs.com 50% off your first box.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You are welcome.