Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 87: Hither And Yon

Summary

My Favorite Murder – Rewind with Karen & Georgia

Episode: 87: Hither And Yon (Rewind)

Original Release: September 21, 2017
Rewind Episode Release: March 11, 2026
Hosts: Karen Kilgariff & Georgia Hardstark
Podcast Network: Exactly Right & iHeartPodcasts

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Episode Overview

In this “Rewind” episode, Karen and Georgia revisit their original 2017 “Hither And Yon” episode, providing fresh commentary, context, and updates on the cases and the show’s evolution. The episode mixes lighthearted banter about podcasting life, touring tales, listener community stories, TV/podcast recommendations, and a deep dive into two notorious true crime cases: the sabotage of United Airlines Flight 629 by Jack Gilbert Graham and the Son of Sam serial shootings by David Berkowitz. The hosts reflect on the emotional toll of true crime storytelling, the meaning of self-care, and the supportive murderino community that has grown around the show since its inception.

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Warm-Up & Banter

Podcast Loft Chaos & Pets

• [01:01 - 03:30] Karen and Georgia reflect on recording at home, poking fun at their messy "pod loft," with piles of merch, podcast paraphernalia, gifts, and the occasional cat barf.
• Georgia: "There's empty fucking sparklets bottles up there."
• Karen: "I always forget that there's two podcasts being beamed out of this apartment."
• Relatable stories about unexpected visitors (doorbell anxiety, "good-looking bug man," a new dog walker) and life’s awkward surprises.

Community & Touring Reflections

• [05:00 - 08:00] The hosts talk about the community at their live shows, how attending alone can be intimidating, and the resulting connections fans make.
  • Georgia: "People we meet at the shows tell us they came alone because they have anxiety, and it was incredible. They met awesome people."
  • Karen: "It's really true...If you're scared of coming alone, you’re going to be sat next to someone who you’ll be best friends with."
• Fun anecdote about a podcast-themed t-shirt:
  • Georgia (about meeting her car dealer): “Vince joked, ‘Oh, you can fit a few bodies in [the trunk],’ and then [the dealer] just pointed at the emergency latch and goes, ‘Just make sure you disable that.’” [07:45]

Self-Care & True Crime Burnout

• [09:07 - 12:55] Discussion of the emotional exhaustion that comes from constant exposure to true crime:
  • Karen: "I personally can't do it. So I have...murder fatigue right now. I just don't want...to read about another axe."
  • Georgia: "Before we started this podcast, I would have to take long breaks from murder stuff because I would get really depressed."
  • Both advocate for self-care and remind listeners to take breaks.

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Podcast Recommendations & Pop Culture Corner

Timestamps: [13:23 - 19:00]

• The Fall Line (true crime podcast focusing on marginalized cases, especially in Georgia)
  • Georgia: "It's a female investigative journalist who every season is going to talk about marginalized crimes and marginalized communities..."
• Zealot by Jo Thornley (Australian cults, comedic take)
• TV Recap: "The Sinner" (Jessica Biel) – Georgia’s watching, finds the characters compelling; both swoon over “dirty, dirty Bill Pullman.”
• Toast of London & "Garth Merenghi's Dark Place" (British comedy) – Karen highly recommends for fans of dry, high-IQ humor; memorable anecdote about Matt Berry’s “fuck you” sketch [20:36].
• Reflections on the lack of female TV characters with varied body types and defiance of stereotypes.
• Excitement about the TV landscape and their own escapist YouTube habits.

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Main Case 1: Jack Gilbert Graham & United Airlines Flight 629

Presented by: Georgia
Segment Start: [27:04]
Case Discussion: [30:34 - 57:18]

Case Summary:

• Victim: Daisy Graham (his mother); 43 others
• Crime: The 1955 bombing of United Airlines Flight 629 over Colorado, the first confirmed sabotage of a U.S. commercial airplane.
• Motivation: Graham’s lifelong feelings of abandonment—sent to an orphanage during the Great Depression, repeatedly rejected by his mother who later became wealthy but did not reclaim him.
• Timeline Highlights:
  • [31:06] Graham’s father dies; Daisy sends him to an orphanage despite later marrying a rich rancher.
  • [32:28] Daisy lets Jack visit for Christmas, buys him a pony, and then returns him to the orphanage.
  • [34:35] Jack develops a history of crime (forgery, bootlegging).
  • [36:52] Daisy finally gives him a job but their relationship is bitter; Daisy’s restaurant later explodes, suspected of insurance fraud.
• Bombing Details:
  • [43:01] Jack buys a $1.50 life insurance policy at the airport on his mother, worth over $37,000 (now ~$450k).
  • [44:58] He plants a dynamite bomb in Daisy’s suitcase, under the ruse of a Christmas present.
  • [46:04] The plane explodes 11 minutes after takeoff, killing all 44 onboard.
• Investigation & Confession:
  • [49:28] FBI reconstructs the crash, traces the bomb to his mother’s suitcase, uncovers Jack’s explosive-related criminal history.
  • [51:09] Jack confesses: "I then took the sack of dynamite with the battery and timer attached and placed it in my mother's large suitcase..."
  • [52:47] On remorse: "The number of people to be killed made no difference to me. It could have been a thousand. When their time comes, there's nothing they can do about it."
• Aftermath & Legacy:
  • Jack was found guilty of his mother’s murder (not the other passengers), executed in 1957.
  • His crime led to the creation of federal airline sabotage laws and the FAA.
• Notable Quotes:
  • Karen: "The coldness of the plan of revenge on his mom, but then just like total devastation on all these other people. It's so evil." [53:36]
  • Georgia: "He looks like if our friend Matt Bronger was playing a yokel with a widow's peak." [57:20]

Memorable Side-Tangent:

• The hosts are fascinated by the existence of airport life insurance vending machines and automats (retro automated cafeterias), using this as a springboard for humor about mid-century living and time travel wishlists.

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Main Case 2: David Berkowitz, the "Son of Sam"

Presented by: Karen
Segment Start: [61:01] Case Discussion: [63:43 - 98:36]

Case Summary:

• Victims: 6 murdered, 7 wounded (1976–1977, New York City)
• Crime: Series of shootings, targeting young women (particularly with long, dark hair), often while sitting in cars.
• Early Life: Born to a single mother who put him up for adoption; suffered emotionally, became a bully, later fixated on arson.
• Murders:
  • [69:19] Details of shootings in cars outside discos and apartments, generally with a .44 caliber weapon.
  • [74:49] Public fear escalates as police confirm a pattern; women in New York cut and bleach their hair in response.
• Media Frenzy:
  • [76:54] A taunting letter is left at a crime scene: “I am the Son of Sam. I am a little brat...Go out and kill, commands Father Sam...”
  • [80:17] Sends a surreal, poetic letter to newspaper columnist Jimmy Breslin ("Hello from the gutters of NYC which are filled with dog manure, vomit, stale wine, urine and blood...").
  • [82:26] The “Son of Sam” name sticks; panic and coverage reach a fever pitch.
• Break in the Case:
  • [87:41] A plethora of eyewitnesses and a crucial tip from Cecilia Davis, who saw Berkowitz’s illegally parked car ticketed near the murder scene and a suspicious man nearby.
• Capture:
  • [90:12] Police find a rifle, ammunition, and maps in Berkowitz’s car; he is arrested and confesses immediately.
  • [91:48] In his apartment: walls covered in satanic graffiti, notebooks recording hundreds (possibly over 1400) arson fires.
  • [93:04] Initially claims his neighbor’s dog was possessed by a demon and gave him orders—later admits this was a ruse for an insanity defense.
• Aftermath:
  • Found guilty (six life terms, 365 years), becomes a born-again Christian, repeatedly denied parole, remains in prison.
  • [95:28] Berkowitz (still alive as of this episode) wrote: “I believe I deserve to be in prison for the rest of my life.”
• Debunked "Cult" Theories:
  • Later claims he was part of a satanic cult are dismissed by experts and witnesses.
• Notable Quotes:
  • Karen: "He wanted to end lives because it was about his failures as a man." [97:52]
  • Georgia: "It's emotionally detached in a way that you don't expect from most serial killers...Who are just like, in it for the suffering and seeing the suffering of others." [97:45]

Pop Culture Tie-Ins:

• Movie: "Summer of Sam" (Spike Lee)
• Documentaries: "The Sons of Sam: A Descent Into Darkness" (w/ Paul Giamatti), "Conversations with a Killer: The Son of Sam Tapes" (Netflix, 2025)

Memorable Moment:

• Discussion of the wave of haircuts and wig sales in NYC:
  • Karen: "And that's when all the women got their hair cut...There was a shortage of wigs at beauty supply stores because everyone was just going batshit." [74:49]

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Listener & Host Reflections on True Crime

Segment: [12:43 - 13:41 & throughout]

• The psychological toll of researching and telling true crime:

  • Karen: "It's a job now...But I fucking would get dark and deep and depressed and scared of the world."
  • Self-care is reframed as a practical necessity, not a luxury.

• The power of empathetic storytelling, as exemplified by new podcasts and careful case selection.

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Tips & Community Moments

Best Tips for Going Places Alone:

• [23:13] Karen describes going to parties solo by wearing a swing coat, leaving her purse in the car as a psychological “protection layer.”
• [24:13] Georgia shares her “Hollywood brag” about unintentionally entering a party alongside actress Judy Greer, instantly bonding.
• The segment is humorous, relatable, and celebrates personal growth.

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Standout Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Community:

  • "The people you sit next to become your new friends; we always try to connect solo guests at meet and greets." [06:33]

• On Murder Fatigue:

  • Karen: "I have murder fatigue right now because I just don’t want to read about another axe." [11:21]

• On Emotional Detachment:

  • Berkowitz: "The number of people to be killed made no difference to me. It could have been a thousand." [52:47]

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Updates & Addendums (2026)

Jack Gilbert Graham, Flight 629

• [59:22] Recap of the significance of the airport life insurance policy, now worth ~$453,000.
• [59:40] The episode’s original title (“Hither And Yon”) comes from Karen’s observation: “Selling insurance at the airport opens the door to people who shouldn’t be buying life insurance policies hither and yon.”
• TV: "A Crime to Remember" featured this story.

Son of Sam, David Berkowitz

• [98:44] As of 2026, Berkowitz is still in prison in upstate New York.
• [99:10] Netflix’s "Conversations with a Killer: The Son of Sam Tapes" (2025); includes a new Berkowitz interview where he expresses remorse.
• [99:32] "Sons of Sam: A Descent into Darkness" documentary explores “cult” theories and the broader cultural panic.

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Other Recommendations & Lighter Moments

• More “self care” merch tales — “The Husband Did It” t-shirt and “filled with rage” kitten tee get shoutouts for both humor and personal empowerment.
• Bands: Karen plugs “Sure Sure,” playing at the Satellite LA; Georgia waxes enthusiastic about her new Toyota Corolla (“It has a cooch warmer – that’s next-level class!” [101:10])
• The hosts’ joy at performing, seeing friends’ bands, and small personal triumphs — a throughline of positive reinforcement for their audience.

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Possible Alternative Titles

[104:43]

• “Cakewalk in the Park” (writing about U.S. crimes after Australia’s bleakness)
• “Clubbing with Polyester” (1970s disco culture and Son of Sam era)

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Episode’s Last Word

Closing Mantra:

• "Stay sexy and don’t get murdered."
  [105:27]

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For Listeners:

This episode is a full-spectrum “MFM” experience:
You get the laughter and weirdness of Karen & Georgia’s friendship; sage, funny advice on living solo and self-care; true crime storytelling that’s haunting, visceral, and emotionally honest; a sense of belonging to a community; and an empathetic, unromantic look at both notorious crimes and the ordinary anxieties of life.

Major Segments:

• [30:34 - 57:18] Jack Gilbert Graham & Flight 629
• [63:43 - 98:36] David Berkowitz – Son of Sam
• [Entire Episode] Community themes, podcast and TV recs, self-care talk, and daily life commentary

Notable Quotes:

• "It's a classic, like, bullshit salesman personality. It's why I like people like that and I hate myself for liking them." – Karen [08:38]
• "I feel, like, mysterious, like I’m Carmen San Diego or something like that." – Georgia [23:03]
• "Self-care, everybody." – Georgia [12:47]
• "It’s just so cowardly and weak to, like, stand from a distance and shoot a person and then just be like, I am the Son of Sam." – Karen [97:25]

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For new or longtime listeners, this episode is a textbook example of classic MFM: community, catharsis, dark humor, and true crime with empathy and intelligence.

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Stay sexy and don’t get murdered.

Transcript

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is exactly right. And on the Quiera Cascuches podcast. Hello.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hello, and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, that's right. Every Wednesday we recap our old episodes with all new commentary, updates, and insights.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Ooh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Today we're recapping episode episode. Episode 87, which we named Hither and Yawn.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This episode came out on September 21st, 2017.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, let's listen to the intro of episode 87. Episode 87 episode.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Welcome to my favorite Murder A True crime podcast for people who are into facts and percentages.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That in itself is not a fact.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's Karen Kilgera, that's Georgia Hardstark, and welcome. And we are finally back in my apartment.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, this is quite an adjustment.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know. I'm like, I've been really looking forward to this, to just be like, in our element. I was gonna clean up the podcast loft.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What happened?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, all you have to do is look at it to know what happened. It's like a fucking bomb went off in there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

An Australian gift bomb.

[Georgia Hardstark]

An Australian gift bomb. A we watch wrestling. Fucking merch bomb.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's empty fucking sparklets bottles up there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I always forget that there's two podcasts being. Being beamed out of this apartment.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So there's a lot. There's a lot going on. Not just us.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And both Vince and I, like, are the keepers of the things. So it's just. And you know, there's also cat barf. And I'm going to be honest right now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. Yeah, good. I welcome that honesty.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't have cat barf equivalent in my house at the moment. Although I did open the door to a new. My dog walker went on vacation and she told me she had a replacement, but she didn't say the replacement was automatically coming. She just gave me the number of the person I could call.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And so at like 11 in the morning, while I was wearing. When I wear my black pajamas, they become black with white hair pajamas. And I was sitting there working on something, and the doorbell rang. And I was like, what could possibly be happening right now?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is that the worst feeling when the doorbell rings? It's the sneak to the door quietly and look out the thing, people. And then I'm like, yeah, but like,

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm like, front door on the sidewalk. So it's whoever. And a lot of times it's people who are shilling for a church or real estate agency.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hey, are you thinking about selling your house?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hey, I think you should Sell this piece of shit house and get out from. Get out from underwater. It's usually that one time it was the bug man. Did I tell you about that? When I opened the door and the guy goes, hey, I just wanted to introduce myself. And then he stood back a little bit and goes, the bug man. And I just shut the door because he was like, he started to say my neighbors used him to like an exterminate or something, but he, he was really young and good looking and he had like a uniform on. And I was just like, get out of here.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't try to charm me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're going to bug.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Charm me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, no, Never.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Never.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So this time was weird because it was two beautiful northern European looking people with accents.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So I was like. And George immediately. Because they have the. The door open. This is a boring story, but long and short of it is I met the dog walker that I had no intention of calling because I didn't want to talk to a new person or have to make some kind of a new connection. I was gonna be like, fine, I'll do it myself.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then they, she. She just showed up now every day to like, it is her passion.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And you can't tell her, like, leave me alone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, she's already. They've already been in. They've seen the worst of the worst.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's a thing where you, like, know that someone's counting on the money that you're paying them. Yeah. Like, I've been in that position where

[Karen Kilgariff]

you're going to show up no matter what.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Where you. I thought that I was getting this much money this week from this job that I thought I had. And then someone tells you you're not, and you're so broke that you're like, well, now I thought I could cover rent and I can't. Like, that's happened to me. And I burst into tears because I was like, how you canceled on me and now I'm fucked.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So what, you went and did something?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, no, I never did it. But it's like, I don't. I wouldn't want to disappoint. I wouldn't want to do that to someone who's like, hi, I'm here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like I'm supposed to be.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And you're like, no, actually can take this week off. Yeah, we're going on this tour now. It started in Australia. And who knows where and who knows when and who knows when and what and how and why and why? And it could be. I mean, stay tuned.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What we can guarantee you is an eventful, never know night.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know what's cool about that is like I have an issue with going to any. Maybe more so when I was younger, like any event alone, like just showing up anywhere alone freaked me out. I've seen a movie alone once, like as an experiment because I was so scared and ran on my fucking ex boyfriend with his girlfriend there. So like, that's how great it was. It was There Will Be Blood, which is like, you don't want to watch alone. Like you need to talk to someone about it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, there's a lot.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's a lot. That was the only time I've ever gotten a movie alone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You could hide behind. Because it's like a good movie.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

With a good director. So you could be like, oh, I just had to see this film.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or it could be like, I was with my friend but they got triggered and ran out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I just ran.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They hate milk and bowling and lots of things.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So. Yeah. So people are always people who we meet at the shows tell us that they came alone because it's such an event because so many people have anxiety and they're like, and it was incredible. And I met awesome people.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's true.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So that to me is like the people who are scared of coming alone. Like you're going to be sat next to someone who you're going to be best friends with.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's really true.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. It's just everyone, we're all.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then because everyone's the same pretty

[Georgia Hardstark]

much, oh my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Same has the same feel of person. It's hilarious to me. And also when people tell us they're alone when they come to meet us at the meet and greet, I always go, there'll be somebody that's alone and they'll be like, that girl over there's alone. We always like yell over of like, go talk to her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And like, if you wear like a shirt that's like funny that like relates to something murdery, someone's going to come up to you. Like, where did you get that? Be my best friend. Someone had a shirt shirt on one of the meet and greets that said the husband did it. Did I? And I bought us both. I bought us both. And yeah, because that was the best shirt. And I wore to therapy just to be like, here's who I am in your face. And then my therapist, this is how fucking sweet he is. He was like, oh, what? Well, yeah, it's always the husband's fault. And I'm like, no, the Husband murdered the wife. He just didn't get.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh. He thought it meant, like, fight.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And in fact, I went, I bought a car this week.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yesterday. Which was like, exciting on a lot of levels and scary. And the car dealer was like this super normal dude. And we were like, looking at the car and he opened the trunk and Vince joked, like, which I love that Vince said this. Oh, you can fit a few bodies in there. And then he points to the emergency latch and just goes. Just make sure you disable that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Whoa.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, sold. Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's a good sale.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're my guy. I bought the car from him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How old is he?

[Georgia Hardstark]

He was. He definitely didn't listen to the podcast, like, is ever. I tweeted it and people like, he must be. No, no, he just was like a family man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Lots of people have good senses of humor.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And he was like 28 or so. That's hilarious.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I like that style.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I do too. Like, you're just going like, you don't know if I'm gonna. If I'm gonna be. I've had been locked in a trunk before in my life, but you're just fucking picking it up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know what it is? It's if you've been locked in a trunk before in your life, the fact that you're making the joke first means you're okay with it. Which means he can do what he wants and that it's actually additional relief that he would join in and not leave you hanging or go, oh, my God, what's wrong with you?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's just a classic, like, bullshit salesman personality. It's why I like people like that. And I hate myself for liking them because it's such an obvious, like, those smooth talkers are my favorite and they're the most full of shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The people who don't miss a beat.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They don't react.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How thrilling. Yes, exactly. They go along with it. It's like constant high end improvising.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sure, that makes you have to be smarter and quicker too, but it also

[Karen Kilgariff]

is like you're being heard.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's exhausting.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's thrilling. I cannot get a sense of time or place. Oh, because of back being back. I know that it's too long to complain about jet lag. I'm still complaining about it because I'm still there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, it's not just jet lag. It's just that it wasn't a vacation and we were constantly busy and Most people don't fly three times inside of their flight to and from home.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no. The. The traveling that went on within the traveling.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Was very intense.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Studying so much.

[Karen Kilgariff]

When I went to write my murder for this week, it was not enjoyable because there were so many that we had to do for Australia and so many that I researched for Australia and chose not to do it. Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Me too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because they were so intense. There's some fucked up, fucked up stories.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I have like five that are half written that I was gonna do from Australia. Yeah. It's almost good though, because now it feels like, well, we only have three in Detroit and Toronto. How great is that? That's a walk in the park.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's no big deal.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's a cakewalk in the park.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's something about Australian true crime that is very dark. It's like, oh my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

For some reason, maybe it's this judgment. Feels darker than regular.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It feels like the only murders there are huge murders.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's no, like, they don't have guns. So it's not like there's drive bys.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No. It's like a guy that's got like picked up a handful of red clay and painted his face red and then hid in the bushes to intentionally kill the innocents. Like it's a lot of that over and over.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or killed his family. On the next level of family killing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. What is that familia side?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. I just picked the story that's the best to tell in terms of you're not going to fucking believe.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right, Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, I've dipped into like ghost stories and shit. I've gone when I can't go directly to it, which is a thing that like, I know a lot of marinas are. I'm a murderino. Have been since day one. This is my jam. Which is great. But not Everybody does it 247 and like, I personally can't do it. So I have. I definitely have like murder fatigue right now because I just don't want. I don't want to read about another ax that makes sense.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I can't get enough. I still can't get enough. Like, I had to was researching a murder and then ended up, you know, watching six others on YouTube, which is like, has the most fucked up ones. And then I was like, this isn't even what you're talking about this week. Stop. I have to like make myself stop watching it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, I did the same thing where I kept. There's all kinds of. Somebody tweeted this actually because there was a buzzfeed list that was like 16 of the most fucked up murders you've never heard of. Which, as someone tweeted us, and El Murderino say, yeah, right? Like, try, try me, basically. And they were most of ones that we've all heard. But I always. I read those I go through and I'm like, of course I've heard it. Heard it, heard it, heard it, heard it. And I feel like now I'm at that point of like, it's almost like a magic the Gathering level nerd murder nerd thing where I feel like I've had my hands in it for so long that I just am like, just for a little while.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, I don't want to play this game anymore.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just for a little while. And maybe it's just the traveling it'll get.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Before we started this podcast, I would have to take long breaks from murder stuff because I would get really depressed. So the only thing that's kept me from that now, which, because we've been doing it non stop, is this. It's a job now. But I fucking would get dark and deep and depressed and scared of the world.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because it's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's scary.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's scary.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's definitely scary.

[Georgia Hardstark]

On a positive note, self care, everybody.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Stephen heralded and lauded at all. All through Australia, people lost their shot. He basically had a secondary meet and greet line where people would walk away from. Then walk over to Steven's meet and greet.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And be like, I have a present for Stephen. Like, give it to him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I need to go give this to Stephen and have him sign this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. A couple people are like, can Stephen be in this photo? And we made him do. Now, Stephen has a signature pose.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which is on one knee with his shin on his fist in front of us. Child 90s, like, star prom thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it's perfect.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, can I shout out a podcast that I've been listening to that I really love? Podcast Corner. It's called the Fall Line. It's a female investigative journalist who every season is going to talk about marginalized crimes and marginalized communities in Georgia.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Whoa.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Because I think that's where she's from. So that's kind of what she's doing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She kicking off with the Atlantic child killer?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, she's. She's like, doing ones that we don't know about that are. Have been, like, bungled. Oh. Yeah. So this is the 1990 her. The first one's the 1990 disappearance of these twin sisters, Danette and Jeanette, at millbrook, there were 15 year old African American girls on their way home. Good girls. They weren't gonna be the typical. Not runaways. Yeah. Disappeared horse quote the runaways and never got looked into. And so this is actually like reopening the case. And they're looking into it again now and it might get another one of those ones again in Georgia where it might get. So.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. That's amazing. They tried to do runaways in the 90s. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, it was a poor neighborhood in Georgia and you know, in Georgia, African American community. But like the girls had seizure medication and didn't have it with them. Like you don't run away without your seizure medication.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You sure don't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. And they were good girls and not that bad girls don't also good disappear. Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But that's part of the. When it's the disenfranchised cultures that the people, the larger media or the larger interpretation is always. They were asking for it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Some disruption is they did something and they deserved it. And that's why it happened.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. And then there. Because I think that people think that way so they can just break off from any kind of care, emotional responsibility. And it's like, not my problem.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It won't happen to me or anyone I love because. Well, this is a really good one because she. She looks into all the possibilities, including like a couple serial killers in the. In the town. One of which sounds so fucking likely. Wow. And it's just a real. It's one of those, you know, female investigative journalism podcast podcasts that has a ton of fucking empathy. So it's. You feel it too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So that's the fall line.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That sounds amazing. The fall line that makes me think that our friend Jo Thornley, what's her last name was. Someone just tweeted at me. She's number one. Got the number one podcast right now with her podcast Zealot, which is about cults.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She was the hometown. The end of the Live Sydney show, which went up last week. She was the hometown murder, which we originally brought up because she said she could moonwalk. And we knew it'd be a heavy episode because of what we were talking about. So we were like, come up and moonwalk. By the way, do you have a hometown? And she totally did. And she was charming as fuck. And she's like, I also have a podcast called Zealot about cults. And I looked at her Instagram and it was like, oh my God, I'm number 46 on that comedy. Also. It's about cults, but it's comedy, which is, like, so up our alley. I'm number 46 on the. Com. The I Chance comedy podcast. And then I looked at him like, oh, my gosh. She's number three right below us. And now she's number.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's number one, girl. Go, girl. That's how it happened with us.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. I. I messaged her on Instagram. I was like, I bet I know how you fucking feel right now. You better enjoy this. It's the coolest thing that's ever happened.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's so good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. I'm so happy for her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, she.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She deserves it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's so funny. And it was purely because she sent the perfectly. The concept of the tweet was, you guys might not feel like talking by the time you get to the end. Let me come up and moonwalk for you. And just the idea of that was so hilarious.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She kind of imagined that we would have picked that because it's not what we do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, it's just like a sidebar. But it was so funny to me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was so funny. And she definitely moonwalked too. I mean, that's why she's following.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She moonwalked in high heels.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's crazy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Happy for her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Anything else? I haven't watched the confession tapes. I don't want to talk about it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I watch some.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I get literally 40 tweets a day saying, watch it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

False confessions are not my thing because they stress me out so much. It's so stressful, and I can't wrap my head around them. Even though I understand the ins and outs, it's just so hard. I get so angry and stressed out that I can't watch that. But I am watching our Jessica Biel. The sinner. The sinner. I'm on episode three. I'm really suddenly getting into it. Like, the first episode, I was like, meh. Second. Okay. Third. I'm fucking there. Yep, it's good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How about that dirty, dirty Bill Pullman as well?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, he's so sexy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, he's dirty.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my. He's a dirty little slut.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's a dirty bird, isn't he?

[Georgia Hardstark]

He wants to be shamed into submission.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I also love that woman that plays as dominatrix or girlfriend or whoever that woman is who just looks like a Norma. The second I see women like that on tv, I'm like, oh, my God. There's just someone. They're letting someone not emaciated be on tv.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you know what Else I love about her character is that she works at a classy restaurant instead of like, because she looks like she'd work at a dive bar in the, on the, you know, off the drag. It's like, nope, she works at a high end restaurant. It's like, you're not fucking making her this character that everyone thinks she is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, she's like a self possessed, self actualized sex worker slash ex girlfriend slash something else. It adds to the interest of like, yeah, this is how complex human beings

[Georgia Hardstark]

actually are, no matter what. And I think I'm. I think I'm really into it. But even if I'm not, the characters are really interesting.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think I'm really into it. Don't fight it. Just like it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I'm gonna. I bought the. I bought the fucking season pass. I'm in. I'm gonna get my money's worth.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's great. Yeah, it's really, it's really well acted. Yeah. I am watching something because as I announced that I was just taking a light. A light axe break. There's a show called Toast of London.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't make me spit this all over the mic.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If you like, I'm imagining it right now. Do you like Peep show and show the show?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I love Peep show. Oh, okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is Matt Berry. Who?

[Georgia Hardstark]

The bigger guy from Peep show, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no, no, he's not from Peep show. But he just. It reminds me of when you Sometimes when I watch British comedy and it. So it's so intelligently funny that it makes me. It makes me feel like screaming as I watch it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cause you don't. Cause you have to be quiet the whole time because you're gonna miss a fuck anything. So you can't laugh out loud. There's no laugh track.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. You're just listening as hard as you can.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And they're so dry. There's no punchline.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it's like saying everyone wants everyone to be this funny. Like, we're doing it here. Why won't you allow people to do it there? Anyway, it's called Toast of London. He is kind of a washed up act.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wait, is he the so hilarious from Dark Places?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Garth Merengue's Dark Places. Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I love him. It's like a new series and it is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Please go watch the late ones we just mentioned. I think you have to go online probably, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think they're all on Netflix.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck. Dark Places and Peepshow are two of the best.

[Karen Kilgariff]

See if Garth Moringi's Dark Places is on Netflix.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just excellent.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, there was a clip. We have to stop talking about this. But there is a scene from Matt Berry's sketch show where he goes, and he's going to help this girl. She's carrying a big fish tank. Have you seen it? And they're walking and he's like, let me take that for you. He's being super fake sweet to her. And then she goes. He's like, oh, you going off this. And she finally goes like, oh, my boyfriend's apartment's right over there. And he goes, fuck you, and throws it down. And it's just as someone did a super cut of all the times he does that. Oh, my God. And he's just. Just throw kick. He drop kicks a dog.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The minute a girl said. A woman says, I have a boyfriend.

[Karen Kilgariff]

My boyfriend.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My boyfriend.

[Karen Kilgariff]

My boyfriend. Fuck you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so funny. And the fish. The fish tank had fish in it. And he broke it and they were on the ground.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, he smashed it as hard as he could.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Listen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So good. Well, go to YouTube.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Toast of London is on Netflix. And peep shows aren't still on Netflix. Right. And do you know the peep show? They're coming out with a new season.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're, like doing a. It's called something. It's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry, it's not peep show, but they're coming out with a new show.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, good, good. Hey, should we sit down? Yeah. Should we talk about murder?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Who the fuck is first and what are we basing it off of? I mean, Sydney. The last show in Sydney. I'm sorry. The show at the Opera House.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, the Opera House show.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, that show we did at the Opera House.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Who went first that time?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I believe you did.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, because you went last. You did the shark arm. Shark arm wasn't Sydney. So then I was first at second night. So it's so that's me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. And we're back. We're back in the pod loft. Podloft days are still happening.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. There's cat barf, you know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. All the stuff.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All the stuff that we used to talk about. What a compelling podcast.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know what I love is that going alone to our shows became a thing. I love that so much. Like, I feel like we talked about a fear, and then everyone knew. Everyone knows it, and then we, like, conquered it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, it's the kind of fear that I think is so relatable. Everyone has it. You don't want to go Somewhere by yourself. And it's so easy to tell yourself all the things that could happen or the judgments. And so then it's like almost creating that space where it's like, trust that this would be a good space and people keep going like it is. You are right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's very satisfying.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I'll say, like, I've gotten over that so hard that I love going places alone. I feel, like, mysterious, like I'm Carmen San Diego or something like that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know, it's the best.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Can I give a tip on going places alone? Definitely, if it's a party. And maybe this is just for me. But one of my favorite, most successful going to a party alone was kind of a little bit of a Hollywood one where I was like, I really want to go to this and it'll be fun and it's kind of big, so I know I'll see people that I know there and it'll be fine. But it was just that, like, how do I get through that front door? And so what I did was I left my purse in the car, put lipstick and the things I wanted in the pockets of this coat that I loved that's like. Was like basically like a little swing coat. And then I just wore my coat all night. So it's like I had this weird little protection on where I was like, I don't have a purse, where I'm like, I just came in from outside. I had weird little like exchange student energy where I was like, maybe I'm leaving right now. Maybe I'm not from here. Maybe you don't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You just can't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You reminded me the last time I went to a party. The other thing that you do, you can wait till someone else is going in by themselves. I didn't do it on purpose, but I walked up to my friend's door and this is a total fucking Hollywood brag. The same time there was another single woman walking in. We met and became friends and walked in together. Yes. I walked into a party with Judy Greer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it looked like I came with her and she was the fucking nicest.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And she brought a candle as a gift, like a housewarming gift.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I love hearing that. She was the nicest.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. And I brought donuts. She was lovely.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's so good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's such a good actress.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And you could tell she was a little nervous too, walking in alone. It's fucking Judy Greer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, it's like when you and I went to that Megan Mullally party that was like the her witches brew party. And it was all women. And I had the same experience with Lisa Kudrow when you were like, one person away from me. Cause you were talking to somebody, and I was just kind of standing there waiting. And then she overheard. She goes, did you just say, blah, blah, blah? I think she was like, are you talking about a network? And I'm like, yeah. She basically was like, tell me about where.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm like, okay, Lisa Kudrowa, Judy Greer, go ahead.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sounds good. Everybody act as if I love it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, Tips and tricks. We did a rewind. We're getting it all out today.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. I think if you don't have stuff in your hands and you can make it so that you can keep your hands in your pockets the whole time if you want to, and make it that you could slide out and Irish goodbye the entire thing at any point,

[Georgia Hardstark]

no one would know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I like that. Purely safe.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I like it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right. Oh, my God. You wore a T shirt to therapy that said the husband did it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That was my favorite shirt for the longest time. I have one that's got a kitten on it. And it says filled with rage. That's my favorite.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I do wear my favorite TikTok sweatshirt, which is this amazing, hilarious drawing of a frog sitting down, trying to touch his own toes with a cup of tea. And then underneath, it says, self care.

[Georgia Hardstark]

See, you're just like us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I. But that's literally like kind of a one off. There's not many. I just get too 90s self conscious, where I'm just like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't kind of a thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Don't need anybody reading my body.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right? It's like. It's like a look at me thing. You have a band tee? A fucking thing. No, I'm like, look at these tits. Motherfucker.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Get over here. I love strawberries.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I have a strawberry shirt on right now, everyone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah, that's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I have many strawberry shirts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, it's a very 80s.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is it? Oh, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was a thing in the 80s. Have you ever seen the 80s? Or did your sister or anybody else have the dittos? The jeans that had, like, little designs on the back pockets. And then it was like, I got ones with cherries on the back. I got ones with blah, blah, blah on the back. Strawberries were big.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think it reminds me of the Hungry, Hungry Caterpillar as well.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She makes me really happy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A wonderful book.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. Should we get into it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I guess we should. No, I think we should describe what we're wearing from our childhood. Okay, it is time now to get into Georgia's story about Jack Gilbert Graham and Flight 629.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

We were just on a little work vacation and I pulled out a Quint skirt that I bought, I don't know, four years ago or something and it was like the perfect throw it on resort wear. I mean it was like I'd planned it for all that time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, this is the. Sorry, I just forgot what I was doing. This is the story of Jack Gilbert Graham and Flight 629. All right, so Jack Gilbert Graham, let's call him Jack, was born on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's flight 629.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Now what do I ignore? That airplane flying into this place. Do we have something like a black box that if we get blown up by an airplane right now that they can find it? Can you save that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't think this would survive an airplane.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Upload it right now just in case

[Karen Kilgariff]

the apartment has a black box. That's all the apartments came with black boxes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right? That's the thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's why you came here.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That vintage ship painting, that's a black bo.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, fuck. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, so. So Jack is born on January 23, 1932, in Denver, Colorado. I was gonna do this for Denver, but then I'm like, I'm saving the shit out of this. He's the second child of Daisy Graham and her second husband. He. Jack is born during the Great Depression. In 1937, his dad dies of pneumonia, which is a thing back in the Great Depression, it caused Daisy, Daisy. Then his mother sent him to an orphanage because of their poverty. Super bummer. It was a thing back then.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And sometimes they did. They just did it like it was a pawn shop where it was like, stay here for a little while.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'll come back and get you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Baby farmers, right? Weren't they called baby farmers in England?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I didn't know that. That makes sense.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Where you just kind of drop them off and they grow your baby and then you come pick them back up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They grow your baby poorly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They grow your baby, but a lot of times they. What they would do is kill them and take the money. Yeah, they would take the money. Be like, sure, sure, we'll totally take care of it and get money from the state or whatever.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, no. So. But then Daisy goes and married. And I had to quote this because it was so good. Well healed, meaning rich as fuck.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Daisy marries a rich as fuck rancher named Earl King in 1941. She's now, like, fucking living the high life. Still doesn't get Jack from the orphanage.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah, well, that's her old life. She wants to put all that behind her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She doesn't want to, like, stress out. Rancher guy in his mansion, he ran away several times to be with her from the orphanage, but she always brought him back. And she's like, oh, no. You're gonna raise a. Oh, that's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So he would actually get to his mother's house and she would bring him back the mansion. That's like something an orphan would make up. She's like, my mother lives nearby in a mansion, right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And she must not just be able to come get me. So I'm gonna make it easier for her and go. Go there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then she's all, no, thanks. Nope.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Then when Jack was eight years old, Daisy, she brought him home to the ranch to celebrate Christmas from the orphanage. Like, come on home from Christmas, buys him a pony. And he's like, well, if you're buying me a pony, I'm clearly here to stay. Nope. Once Christmas was over, she takes him back to the fucking orphanage. Can you imagine living a lavish whatever week life. Week long life in a mansion that your mother gets to stay in your mother pony. And there was an older half sister, so I. And. But it doesn't say. I wonder if she was actually living there. You know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, why don't they just send him to boarding school? Why does he have to be in an orphanage? Sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So the husband, the richest husband, dies and she takes the money for inheritance, becomes a successful businesswoman, and still doesn't fucking get him from the orphanage. I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Are you just telling me a super sad story this week?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yep, that's it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's just all about orphans. Just take that up. Yeah. Well, don't worry. It gets worse.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When he's 16, he forges papers and he joins the Coast Guard and. But his real age is found out and he's discharged, which is so sad, where it's like, he might have had a good life if they had. Like, he. He wanted to join the Coast Guard and. And be part of the military. And they were like 16, which back then was like 27. In terms of, like, being on your own. You could probably drink already.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, but if it was still during. It's. This is a little after the Depression, because maybe it's like no free lunches.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Come back when you're 18.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You have to get your own free lunch until.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, go get your free lunch at

[Karen Kilgariff]

the orphanage because maybe they would get in trouble for. You know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's true.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Dangerous.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know. At 19. So finally at 19, he forged for over 4 grand in checks to finance a road trip that got him and ended up. The forged checks got him two months in a Texas jail for bootlegging and running a police roadblock. Block, block at 100 miles per hour. Which sounds like fun. Yes. Bootlegging.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. At this point, he's like, who gives

[Georgia Hardstark]

a. Yeah, I'm gonna go.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Everyone in charge is crazy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm gonna live my life. Yeah. He's extradited back to Denver. His mom pays his debt, and probation is granted. So he then goes to the University of Denver, which is later. Like, he must be. Have some. Must be kind of smart.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In a way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I couldn't get into the university system here in California.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What did our Uber driver tell us when we were in Boulder? It was the night before school started for the University of Boulder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, I think so.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Whatever.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Whatever.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The College of Boulder, which I clearly couldn't get into. She said to us. No, he. He said to us. Yeah, well, Boulder's known. Boulder College is known as a Pretty easy to get into school. Insinuating that everyone there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Stupid.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which I was just like, okay, I don't feel so bad about going to community college and dropping out now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I went to Sac State, where they were like, please come here. Please come and be one of the 200,000 people that go to this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We need you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

More than you need us. Yeah. Oh, my God, I love it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But. But we should add this, that then after our show and we all went downtown to, like, try to find a party.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Where people told us over and over again, don't go downtown.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Remember?

[Karen Kilgariff]

They were like, you don't want to go down there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because it was all college kids partying,

[Karen Kilgariff]

college camp kids just running amok in the street. All of them lovely, polite.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

My sister asked for directions at one point, and the boy was like. Practically walked them to the door of the place they were trying to find.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Yeah. So we're not. Listen, Boulder College.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, I just. I figured I'd put that out there, too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Of Colorado. That's very fair of you. I wasn't gonna.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, we can't call everybody stupid and just walk away.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're right. Okay. So. Attends Denver University, meets his wife, Gloria. Daisy, the mom and Jack were estranged until 1954, when Jack was 22 years old. And Daisy, at this point, is running a successful restaurant. And In May of 1955, she builds a crown a. She builds Crown a Drive in, which is what it was called for him to manage. She just, like, builds a place so he'll have a fucking job.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's the big. That's the big get back. That's the big. Sorry about the orphanage. Your whole life. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Remember when I abandoned the shit out of you Forever.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hey, well then how about some middle management?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, how about you clean up French fry grease every night? Good luck with that. And manage like roller skating waitresses who hate your guts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Love mommy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Love your mommy. But Daisy and Jack, they still had a shitty relationship. They're often seen arguing. And in 1955, Daisy's restaurant, her other restaurant, has a gas explosion. It causes severe damage, closes her restaurant for good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Huh. The most interesting kind of explosion. Gas line.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Would I bring it up if it wasn't relevant? Probably not. Probably. Probably.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Maybe not.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Maybe not. We won't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We'll never know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's a third choice and we don't know it yet, then. Okay, so Daisy at This point's a 53 year old widow. 53 at that point is fucking old as shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, you're just like, head for the hills, lady. You're done for.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You retire already, will you? So she tells Jack, Jack's 23 at this point. He's got a wife, they have a baby. He's like made good and made a family and works for his mother. He's clearly trying to fucking play ball, make her want him still. And she's like, oh, by the way, the holiday's coming up. Even though you have a new baby. I'm gonna go instead. Go to Alaska and visit your older sister.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God, I hate her. It's so the people close to you are the ones that can hurt you the most.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, for sure. And they do. And why do we let them?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because you just. That's life. That's like. It's a series of insults and injuries.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And you trying to fix yourself so that you fit into what they are want from you, even though they have no clue what they want from you because they're broken too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then you realize you fix yourself for yourself and you drive through a fucking police roadblock like, this is my movie time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In your life, you have fun.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're drinking shitty bathtub gin.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're having the best life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're just going for it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And then in Texas, of all places, which had to be fun.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Go watch. Everyone go watch Paper Moon. I bet that's what his life was like. That movie is so amazing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or Friday Night Lights.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah. They weren't bootlegging in that movie, were they?

[Karen Kilgariff]

They could have been. There was that one season where the brothers stole copper wiring.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There was that one, Susan, where they had, what's it called? Prohibition. What? What did you say?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I just said pot. Oh, they took some Pot.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They took pot. Duh, duh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Duh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. And that I wrote. And that, as they say, was the final, final fucking straw for him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I was like, or maybe it was the pony years and years ago that was the final straw. And he just, like, hadn't planned it yet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The straw went in and then it was. It just waited. It was benign until it became malignant.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. It just got heavier over the years. Okay. November 1, 1955. Jack's like, okay, you want to go to Alaska?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let me take you to the airport. Oh, I'll take you to the airport to go to Alaska.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so loaded. Because I just was like, it's literally loaded.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, all right, I'm gonna let you go.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What were you gonna say?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, just. Just going to the airport by itself. Like, the morning we were leaving for our trip, you were like, come to my house. If you wanna ride with us, come to my house. We're leaving at 7:30. Da, da, da. And then I was just like, I am so stressed. And now I'm adding another thing to be stressful.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They're waiting for me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I'm gonna screw this up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's no way I'm gonna be on time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I think it's better that you. Not that you would have done anything wrong. You were there at the exact same time as us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's that thing of we were. Which I think we did very well with the anxiety of travel.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, we had such a good friendship trip.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was so fun.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was so good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We had the best time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Steven, thank you for being a kitten in the. In the group of, like, just, Steven's here, Steven's there. You get mad when Steven's there, but it's like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, we're. I think we're both aware. But also it's that thing of, like, just travel anxiety, not knowing things. Walking up. You never know what the fuck you're doing or where you're supposed to be walking up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which is great that we have Vince, who. Who could not let. Who could not be in charge. Not be in charge if he tried.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And so it's the best. Yeah, he would never. If it was up to one of us, he would lose his mind. Yeah, he would lose his mind.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Me too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, me too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Between Vince and then our Australian tour manager, Nick, who was a genius.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We love you. You're never gonna listen to this podcast.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's too punk rock. Yeah, he doesn't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He was punk rock. Yeah. He was the best.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's the Best.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I want him to always travel with us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. So sorry. I'm just. I'm setting the table of. I now have travel anxiety.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just hearing travel anxiety sucks. Can you. Okay, picture this. You're. Everyone's a little scared of flying. You're anxious at the airport. Traveling is new. It's 1955. Like, passenger traveling's pretty new. And sitting at the. In the airport before you get on your plane is a fucking, like, cigarette machine that instead of cigarettes, sells life insurance.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What?

[Georgia Hardstark]

From before you get on the plane. Swear to fucking God, this was a thing until the 80s. Oh, my God. So you go in there and in this case, jack puts in $1.50 and gets out a life insurance policy for his mother, is about to fly to Alaska for $37,500, which at that time is. This time, it would be almost $350,000.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fuck.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it's just like, good luck. Everyone just bought some and it was like. Like, poke, not die.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so perfect. Like, it's so perfect. If he has any bad intentions, he didn't fucking put that machine there. Like, he's just using it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, everybody does it that day. Everyone's like, it's a thing of, like, I better do it for good luck, though. You know what I mean? Like, of course, when I don't do it, it's gonna. It's like having your numbers on roulette where it's like, you always do 13. Yeah. But like, this one time, it's like, well, what if 13 comes up? So I just always put it on 13.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Same with renting a car. It's gonna be the time you don't get rental insurance.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Exactly. I did the. I did that where it was like, why did you bring up rental insurance, dude? Because now I have to get it. Yep. All right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. So I think they did away with that on purpose because it's terrifying to everyone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's terrifying. It also. It opens the door to people who should not be able to just buy life insurance policies. Hither and yon. But also.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't yawn. That was a. I gotta stop on that. I've never heard that, but I know what you meant.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It didn't really apply to what I was saying, but.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, hither and thither, it's like, here and there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But. No, I know, but I want to now see all those machines that they made in the 50s when they were like, making. Like, life is going to be easier because we have these machines.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I have, like, a photo, like, a drawing of like a happy family on the way to the. Walking to the. You know, because you'd walk on the tarmac, walking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I bet we could find it. I could. We could find one in, like, American Pickers, you know that show.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I bet they have. They must have kept them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I bet there's some that have, like. It's some mechanic. Airplane mechanic who. They were closing down that. And they. He took it home because he didn't. Because he's a hoarder. And it still has the papers you would get.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, could you imagine?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. I need that for the podcast loft.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's such a good idea. Yeah, you need to put that up there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can someone please bring us that? Actually, we. Yeah. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's just around the same time as automaton mats, which are the most hilarious. They're when cafeterias, they pretended to be automated, but it was just people putting dishes into those.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You, like, press. It's like pressing D7. It's like a hand coming out and handing you the, like creamed corn or whatever there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So you just have a bunch of plates.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like one of my. One of my time travel, like, plans is I would go to an automat because I love cafeterias more than anything.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. A thousand percent.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I would do the exact same thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When we time travel and then we're gonna go shopping at and may Company.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

When they run the things like, you know that they used to run the money along wires above, they would drop it down. So be like. Anyway.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, but I want dresses. Yes, you can go do that while I go look at the dresses and girdles. Go ahead.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, well, here's where it gets crazy. Okay. Before. Okay, here's what happened. Wait, let's go back to before. Wait, no. Jack says to Daisy that he left a surprise Christmas gift in her suitcase. Spoiler alert. It wasn't a puppy. I wrote that, so it was kind of corny. Instead, in Daisy's large tan Samsonite suitcase, alongside the photo album of Jack and Gloria's wedding that Daisy was going to show to her daughter in Alaska, he had placed a needle bundle of explosives less than an hour after the flight took off. The United Airlines flight became the first confirmed sabotage of a commercial aircraft in the United States when it exploded midair.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, fuck.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Have you not seen this? Crown to remember?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. It crashed into farmland and sugar beet fields near Longmont, Colorado, and daisy and the 43 other passengers and crew all died.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The youngest passenger was 13 month old James Fitzpatrick II, the eldest was 81 year old Layla McClain. Five children, lost both their parents in the crash. Pregnant 22 year old Carol Bynum and her husband both died. It was the worst mass murder in U.S. history at the time and remains the worst in Colorado and was one of the largest investigations in the FBI history.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The FBI obtained. So can I really quickly, I just want to say also, and I know it's fucking sidebar nation over here, but I just finished what's weird about this, that I was planning on doing this and then I didn't realize until today when I finished this audiobook I've been listening to that is so good. But it's about a plane crash that sabotage that goes the whole story. You don't find out what happened until the very end. And in my car at like 2 o' clock today, I found out. And I almost had a pullover because I was crying.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because it was so good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Was it a true story?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, no, no. The novel. Yeah, it's a novel. It's called before the Fall by Noah Hawley. H A W L E Y oh, spoiler alert. What did I say?

[Karen Kilgariff]

You said what the ending was.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What did I say?

[Karen Kilgariff]

You said that it was the explosion.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, no, it's not an explosion though. It's just a plane crash.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, okay. That's not.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, no, no. So the explosion isn't part of it. It's a plane crash that they have to then. So I'm about to talk about how they figured out what had happened in the plane crash by putting it in the hangar. So this same kind of thing happened while they had a piece together to figure out what happened in the plane crash. And they do it by interviews and going back to the day of the crash and who did what and what happened. And all the characters are really good. It's not an explosion. Okay, that's a spoiler alert.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. I thought that's what you were. I was like, what are they?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know why I just said the name of the book. It's called before the Fall. And the audiobook is great. The reader is really good. You know, it's hard to find that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That name sounds familiar. Noah Hawley.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I bet he did something really cool.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I feel like it's the guy that. I could be wrong, but that might be the guy that does that Does Fargo now? Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Really?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, coming back, Karen. Just fucking. Oh my God, your memory is bananas.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is it though?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Your memory of.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In certain ways it is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Noah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Holly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is it Holly?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's H. Yeah. Holly. H, A W L, E Y. But he's not. He does a lot of things, but he is the reason that fucking Fargo series is so magical. Cause it's being written. It's a novelist writing a TV show. So it's like pictures.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Well, now I'm even more proud of myself for finding this fucking book that I love.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nice one. He's got other ones here.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, I'm gonna download all of them. Yeah. Great audiobook. Which sometimes I'll be like, don't get the audiobook. Read the book. It's better. This was a great audiobook. And it's just weird that I'm doing this story at the same time as this, because I literally. I don't cry at books and movies. And I almost had to pull over because I was just, like, so taken aback by.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I love a good author. Like, someone that really does it. Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm so happy that we know. Put that. You put that together. Okay. So the FBI obtained use of a nearby barn. They reassembled the fragments of the airplane collected from the site, and they were able to determine that the explosives were used. Which is so incredible to me that a flight. A plane can blow up and crash, and they can still put it together and figure out what happened.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They put it together like a huge puzzle.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's incredible to me. It's crazy. Those people must be so smart. They went, yeah, I'm not gonna say it. I'm done with that. I'm done with folder. And that then. And then they. And they determined that it. Which piece of luggage it had come from.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, it went off in that piece of luggage. And they figured out what piece of luggage it came from. And they figured out was Daisy's tan Samsonite. All right? They. So they started looking into her family and looked into Jack. When they found out about his criminal past with the bootlegging. They also determined that Daisy's restaurant had been damaged by, quote, a suspicious explosion as well, and that Jack had received the insurance settlements, which is like, dude, change your M.O. a little bit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know what I mean? Don't keep exploding things.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Locals also suspected Jack of deliberate causing his new pickup truck to be stuck by. To be struck by a train that year for insurance money. So this guy was like, after insurance money and into explosions. They also found that when she died, a large part of Daisy's estate would go to Jack. So insurance money again. After a few days of questioning, Jack said, okay, where do you want Me to start. And then in great detail, he described building and planting the bomb that killed his mother and 43 others on Flight629. It was constructed of 25 sticks of dynamite, a 6 volt battery, two electric primer caps in case one of them failed, and a timer set to detonate in about 90 minutes after he planted it or turned it on. Working in an electronic shop for just two weeks, he had given Jack all the expertise he needed to build the bomb. So this guy must have been fucking smart. Yeah, I then, he said, I then took this. I then took the sack of dynamite with the battery and timer attached and placed it in my mother's large suitcase. Based on all that evidence found at Jack's house, he was arrested, charged with sabotage, and later that was changed to murder. After the arrest, some newspaper people, radio station people were able to sneak cameras and recording into the jail. And Jack told them, I loved my mother very much. She meant a lot to me. It's very hard for me to tell exactly how I feel. She left so much of herself behind, which I'm like, no, she fucking didn't, dude. I mean, is that insensitive?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's insane of him to say. Yeah, it's super bizarre.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think he must have not had our emotions, our feelings that we have. I don't want to call him a sociopath because people are like, that's not really.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, it may or may not apply, but he's definitely was insanely, like damaged and abused as a child.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, that the emotional attachments you have are broken at some point.

[Karen Kilgariff]

His mother repeatedly rejected him. That's like, there's some serial killers that, that it only happens once and they.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it still doesn't mean she. He didn't love her. It could mean that he loved her more in a real. In a way that we don't feel love, but that feels like love to someone else.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, it's all he knew.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, he lived in an orphanage.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He had that thing of, like, you if you don't have emotional attachments to not just your parents, but to like a caregiver as a young child, you can't have those to anyone. It's really hard to change that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's sad.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But he's also a murderer and murdered a bunch of innocent people.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, the plan of that, the coldness of the plan of revenge on his mom, but then just like total devastation on all these other people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So many families.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so evil.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, yeah. When asked why he had signed the confession and confessed, he said that the FBI threatened to point out inconsistencies and statements made by his wife, Gloria, but he wanted to keep her out of it. He just, like, didn't want her to have anything to do with it. So he was like, I'm going to confess, so she doesn't. You know, maybe she was lying for him. Maybe she was covering for him. He also told prison doctors that he realized. He said he realized that there were about 50 or 60 people carried on, but the number of people to be killed made no difference to me. It could have been a thousand. When their time comes, there's nothing they can do about it. It's almost like he's God. And their time had come when really he had just decided, yeah, yeah, he's

[Karen Kilgariff]

pretending that that was. He was some kind of like, the arbiter of fate or something. Just like, no, dude, you've just.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. The trial resulted in Colorado becoming the first state to officially sanction the use of television cameras. Cameras to broadcast criminal trials. No federal statute at the time on the books that made it a crime to blow up an airplane because it was so fucking new. And that led directly to federal laws criminalizing airline sabotage and the formation of the Federal Aviation Administration. At the time, though, on the day of Jack's confession, they wanted to quickly prosecute Jack. The simplest possible way was premeditated murder of a single victim, his mother. So none of the other victims. They didn't try him for those. Despite the number of victims, he's charged with only one count of first degree murder. He recanted his confession, but because of all the evidence, he was found guilty, attempted suicide. And on May 5, 1956, he was convicted of the murder, sentenced to death, executed in the gas chamber in January of 1957. And before his execution, he said about the bombing, as far as feeling remorse for these people, I don't. I can't help it. Everybody pays their way and takes their chances. That's just the way it goes. And about his mother's murder, he said, I watched her go off for the last time when she was getting on the plane. I felt happier than I'd ever felt before in my life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Life, dude.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And that's our friend Jack Gilbert Graham at Flight 629.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I like in those kind of quotes where you can really.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It really almost surmises the insanity of the person where it's like, you are totally come cut off from empathy. You don't give a. About anybody. But Your revenge.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not even in a way of like, you're about to die. It doesn't matter. Apologize to the families, even if you. You don't fucking mean it. Like, you can't even give them some kind of.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, because he doesn't. He doesn't care. He doesn't have a connection to care about those families.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's a way. It's impossible for us to understand.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, and also it's. But the thing I think it's interesting is, like, family is the source of his insanity or his. His damage. So he doesn't care about those families because he never had a family. He's like, go fuck your. He's probably more mad that they had families.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's probably thinking that they feel the same way about their family. Families as he does about his. Because he doesn't know what it's like to feel any feelings about your family.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Only just negative or shitty or like. Yeah, man.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, and go look him up. Go look at his photo. He.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Look.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He looks like if our friend Matt Brong. Matt Bronger was playing a yokel with a widow's peak.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, like greaseback hair.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Our friend, comedian Matt Bronger, playing a role as a Yoko.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow, that was good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's fun to base them on TV shows.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, you're right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Very hard work gets done for you. Yeah. And it's just a retail dude that's set it up so nice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I do the opposite stupid thing where I'm like, I'm gonna do this hard one, and then it's like. It's so hard that nobody's ever made a documentary about it except for some fucking person who has. Like, there's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Have you looked on YouTube for your murder? And there's just these people. And I don't want to insult other people, but I am. They make these, like, story. They tell the story on video with pictures and things like that. But it's a computer voice. Yeah. And then the murder went. It's so weird.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, I feel like it might be a lot of. There's, like, students. It feels to me like students that have to do a presentation for a class or something because there's. Oftentimes the wording is very odd, but it's almost like people are trying to sound new person.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, but it's the. It's at that point, it's the. It's the automated program, which I'm like, just be. Any human can read a Wikipedia page. It doesn't matter. Someone's gonna like your voice.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just read it. Maybe they have a weird high voice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Maybe.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or a strangely low voice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, maybe. I mean, I have a lisp and. And what's it called? Auto tune. No, what's it called when you. When you have, like, the thing or you don't even.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, you're from California. Yeah, I have a lisp and an auto tune. Never had a problem with either.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What if my voice this entire time was auto tuned?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It would be tough.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It would be.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That would be tough to keep it natural.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It would.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, we're back. Are there updates for this story?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No updates. Although we were just talking about how the awesome TV show A Crime to Remember did this story. So go look that up. It was really well done. Just so you guys know, the $37,500 life insurance policy that Jack took out on his mother would be worth today $453,000 plus. Wow. Which is a lot of money. And also our episode title came from the story. Karen says that selling insurance at the airport opens the door to people who shouldn't be buying life insurance policies. Hither and yon. Yeah. Which I'd never heard before.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I. I don't care. I'm gonna go ahead and throw some old people talking in at any chance I get.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love it. Let's go see a picture after this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's a picture. All right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's get into Karen's fucking story about Son of Sam.

[Karen Kilgariff]

People who didn't do what John of

[Georgia Hardstark]

God wanted them to do, they usually disappeared.

[Karen Kilgariff]

John of God was once Brazil's most famous spiritual healer. But in this limited series podcast, we uncover the darker truth behind his global empire of faith and fear. From exactly right and Adonde Media.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is Two Faced John of God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

[Georgia Hardstark]

or wherever you get your podcast. Podcasts. Okay. Yay. Now I got to be told a story. I love going first because then I get to sit back.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sit back and be told a story.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You just get to relax. I. I went. I don't know what I was doing. Here's what I actually did.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, let me hear your process.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Would you want to go behind the scenes? I do. And just go behind the music for a second. Welcome.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Pop up video time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I wanted to do a supernatural murder. Ooh. But that's like a made up thing. It is essential. But that's what I wanted. I just wanted to be a little bit off the planet. A little bit. And so I eventually found the story of a man named Carl Pruitt. Who found. And this was like in the 30s. He found his wife in bed with another man. He strangles her with a rusty chain. Then he commits suicide. The family has him buried far away. I wrote this whole fucking thing up until I found buried far away. And then a kid. People start noticing that there are rings appearing on his gravestone.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Rings.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Rings and concentric rings that are linked.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like a chain.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Basically like a chain. So a bunch of kids are playing in the cemetery and a boy throws a rock at the headstone.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Great place to play, by the way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's where the good times are. He throws a rock at the headstone, chips it. They all go to ride their bikes home. He falls off his bike and the bike chain wraps around his neck and strangles him to death. So when the mother.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is season two of Stranger Things.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The mother finds out and hears all the town gossip of it was cause he was. He desecrated the headstone of the killer of the chain killer. And so she goes down with an axe to take the headstone apart. The next day she's found hanging in her own clothesline.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my goodness.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So then it basically goes on and on. I'm like, this is the best. This is going to be amazing. I get to the end of the article and the person who wrote the article begins to deconstruct ghost stories in America and how. How this is fake. Like Carl Pruitt never existed. This person never existed. You can't find any of these people in any public record. And then I had to start over. I was really mad because it was so perfect and yet it was such a creepypasta like, oh. And then these people, every single thing. Was someone strangled with the chain. If they tried to touch the headstone.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Jesus. I don't know how. I don't know how you can find a murder that gets you out of the murder world.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, no, you can't. I'm just. I don't even know what I'm doing. So then I went all the way and I'm doing Son of Sam.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That was not the direction I thought was gonna happen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I just fucking turned that car around.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But you know why I'm. You know why I understand? It's because he doesn't mutilate anyone. That's right. Where it's almost like he. Listen, murder is murder and it's fucking horrible and awful and Son of Sam is a monster. But when you don't have to talk about someone when for us, I don't mean like there's Certain murders, but when we don't have to talk about. About women getting their boobs cut off.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And being raped and savage, which I'm doing right now. It's almost like a relief.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It is, because it still qualifies. And he's very famous, and everybody knows who he is, but he did. He was on a murder spree in the 70s that was so strangely distant and odd.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Disconnected.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just totally disconnected and yet very specific. He was like. I don't know if a lot of people know this. I certainly didn't before I started reading about it. He. He only shot women with long, dark hair.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I didn't know that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I didn't either. He's a total Ted Bundy in that style. So it's just interesting. Like, it's. It's a. It's definitely a thing where you can dip in, but you don't have to go into.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's not even a stab, which. Which is there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let me stop you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, you know what? Why don't you do your murder and

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'll stop because that's what's interesting. So. So he also was the product of an illicit affair, and his mother gave him away right after. He was born to a couple named Pearl and Nathan Berkowitz, who lived in the Bronx. And he was a troubled youth. Neighbors say he was a bully, he was an asshole. He was really spoiled. He was really difficult. And he, from an early age, began engaging in petty larceny and arson.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Arson. Arson. Our friend.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So there's. I couldn't find anything. I actually looked it up specifically of, like, did something happen to him that he never talked about? Yeah, but his mother died of breast cancer when he was 14.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's it. Man. That's got to be a huge shock.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Then his father remarries. He doesn't like his new stepmother. So in 1971, when he's 18, he joins the army and he serves for four years. He's given an honorary discharge in 1974. And while he's serving in the army, he has his first and only sexual encounter with a sex worker. The result of that encounter gave him a venereal disease. Oh, shit. And psychiatrist or whoever say that after that, whoever. Word on the street was that because of that experience, specific experience, he became enraged with women, which we know can't be true.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, you had that boiling down somewhere, ready to burst. It's not like, oh, I'm great with women. And then you're like, oh, shit, crabs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, exactly. Right. Well, yeah. And it's probably not crabs. No shit crabs.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I hate women.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's already a problem. He's one of those people that, yeah, if you're a bully that. That doesn't get along and is an asshole to everybody. You're not also a lady killer. That's probably not happening.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. I just love that they can blame it on this one. Like they're blaming it on the woman.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know what I mean? Which is just like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Of course it's not. Also, when he gets out of the army, he looks up his birth mother, and his birth mother, mother explains how she gave him away because he was illegitimate. Forensic anthropologist Elliot Layton described this as the primary crisis of his life. Finding out that he was an illegitimate child, that his father didn't want him shattered his sense of identity. On top of that, the old VD mild crabs. That he started a spate of arson fires in the early 70s that he actually. Well, we can talk about this later. But that was his. His first crime was arson. And he would go and light these fires all over the Bronx and, and the surrounding area. If only I knew what that. What cities that involved Manhattan, let's call it. No, he kept it over in, like in his. In the Bronx and Burrows.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Other boroughs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Other boroughs. And in other boroughs, Brooklyn, let's say Brooklyn. There's Queens, there's Queens, and Queens comes up quite a bit in this town.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did he go to Long Island? I don'.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He would make that drive. Okay. He did become a mailman. So Christmas of 1975, he stabs two women with a hunting knife on the streets of New York City.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Jesus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But they fight back. This is Christmas Eve night. They fight back and he flee. He flees the scene. They're not killed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's his first attempt. And that's when he switches over to a.44 caliber bulldog, snub nose, shotgun, or none of it. Handgun.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A gun.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's a.44 caliber gun that he uses for the rest of his time. So July 29, 1976, this is in Pelham Bay, the Bronx, 1:10am And Donna Lauria, who's 18, and Jody Valenti, who's 19, are sitting in Jodi Valenti's car outside Donna Lauria's apartment. And they're talking about the night they just spent at Peach Trees, which was the local disco. Oh, Peach Trees. Oh, this is. If you see the movie Son of Sam, the Spike Lee movie starring John Leguizamo. It's actually really hilarious and great because disco exploded, like in this period of time. And so you Know, around New York City, people were just at discos every night, and that lifestyle was like a big deal.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's just clubbing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, but with disco music, it's clubbing with polyester.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, man, I'm so glad. I hope when we go back in time, we don't end up there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, I can feather my hair so I feel okay about it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You'd probably be a good disco queen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I might be good, good. But I don't want. I. I don't want to show my arms. And that's. That's a. Going to be a big problem at the disco.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I hate disco music and cocaine, so I feel like I just be like in, like sitting in the corner being like, can we go?

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're such opposites.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know. Can we go to a dive bar, please?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. So they were at Peachtree's. They're sitting in the car talking about it. Jody opens the car door to get out to walk up to her house and sees a man walking really fast toward the car.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's so scary, that image.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so scary.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A man walking fast towards you is

[Karen Kilgariff]

like, just punch at one in the morning.

[Georgia Hardstark]

At one in the morning, right outside your house. Punch.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He pulls a.44 caliber handgun out of a paper bag, kneels down and fires five times into the car. Donna Lauria was hit in the neck and killed instantly. Jodi Valenti was hit in the thigh. And then she leaned on the horn and the attacker turned and walked quickly away. Which is also creepy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. That you don't run run, cuz you know not to run, cuz that's suspicious.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep. You just walk quickly away like business. Your business is done here. Okay. So Jody describes him as a white male in his 30s with a fair complexion, about five' nine, weighing 160 pounds, short, dark, curly hair in the quote, mod style.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Good for her for knowing all that, like, remembering all these details.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So also, Lauria's father also saw him and told the police a similar looking man was sitting in a yellow compact car.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All night. He had been cruising the area hours before the shooting, and several neighbors actually saw a man in a yellow car cruising the area. So about three months later, Carl DiNero, who was 20, and Rosemary Keenan, the old Italian Irish combination is fire 18. They were talking outside Keenan's house when, according to Kenan, it felt like the car exploded. So what had happened was that Carr was fired on five times. Carl De Niro, who's in the driver's seat, puts it into drive and speeds away.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And only later do they realize he's been shot in the head.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He ended up getting. He survived. Holy shit. He ended up having to get a plate in his head just to replace the skull, the part of his skull that was blown away.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The police did not attack, did not link this attack to the Loria Valenti attack because they were in two different precincts, so they were just separate shootings.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Weird, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Crazy. Yeah, but I mean, this was New York in the late 70s, so there was tons of crime.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, that's true.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But Rosemary Keenan's father was a New York City. I can't remember if his detective or a police officer, but basically once the daughter of one of their own, they. They turned up the intensity on this specific investigation.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And she didn't die.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She didn't die. Neither of them died. But they could. They didn't have that much evidence. There wasn't a lot. A lot to go on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So a month later, Donna Damasi and Joanne Lamino had just walked home from a movie theater and they were talking on Joanne porch and they see a man in army fatigues approaching them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, I guess it's like Vietnam. So it's not that weird.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, not really. But here's what's weird.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I hate.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's asking for directions in a high pitched voice before he finishes. So he starts asking the question. Before he finishes the sentence, he pulls out the gun and shoots both of them. Donna was shot in the neck but recovered. Joanne's hit in the spine and she's paralyzed. A neighbor claims to have seen a blonde running away from the scene clutching a gun. Okay, so January 30, 1977. This is at the Forest Hills, Long Island Railroad station in Queens at 2:40 in the morning. Christina Friend and her fiance John Deal had just seen Rocky and they were about to go to a disco. It's at a dance hall in Wikipedia, but I would assume that means a disco.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And as they're sitting in the car, three gunshots. Someone shoots into the car three times in a panic. Deal drives away. He suffers, suffered minor superficial injuries. But Christina Fronde was shot. Friend was shot twice and died several hours later in the hospital. Neither of them saw their attacker. So now the police make their first public acknowledgment that the Frond Deal shooting was similar to the other incidents. And all of the crimes could be associated because all of the victims had been struck with.44 caliber bullets. The shooting seemed to target young women with long black hair and the Police announced that they were looking for multiple suspects.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can you imagine, like if, let's say that happened right now in la, if that was going on, I wouldn't want to leave the house.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you know that actually it wasn't here, but it was a little while later, after a couple more of these murders, when that fact of that it was women with long dark hair, there was a rush on. Women getting their hair cut really short like Dorothy Hamill, and dyed lighter.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And that's why that trend, I mean

[Karen Kilgariff]

like that's in New York City, all women got their hair cut and died. And they said that there was a shortage of wigs at beauty supply stores because everyone was just going batshit. Like in one day, once they made that announcement, everyone got their hair. Yeah, I love that idea. Okay, so March 8th, Columbia College is still 1977. At 7:30 in the evening, Virginia Voakshurichian walks home from her classes at Columbia. A man walks toward her and when he gets close, he pulls out a gun and fires into her face. She put up her books to protect herself, but she was killed instantly. And moments later a neighbor, one of her neighbors, rounds the corner. He hears the gunshots and then he nearly collides with the person who just he described as a short, husky boy, age 16 to 18, clean shaven, wearing a sweater and a watch cap, sprinting away from the scene. And other neighbors matching that same description reported a teenager loitering in the area for about an hour before the shooting. In the following days, the media report, police claims that this quote, chubby teenager was the suspect. There are no direct witnesses to her murder and she lived about a block away from where Christine Freund and her fiance John deal were shot. March 10, 1977. NYPD holds a press conference conference stating that the weapon used in Virginia Vox Voskarichians, I think is Voskaritchian's murder, is also a.44 bulldog, the same weapon used in all the other shootings. And of course this whole story, the New York Daily News and the Post go crazy on the, on the Daily. It's just constant, constant pain.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What's it called? Fear mongering. Well, you should be afraid, I guess.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, I mean they were finally like justified. It also went international. They were naming, there's they name in the Wikipedia article. Like all the, you know, the Vatican had an article about it in the Vatican newspaper whatever. So April 17, this is a month later basically in The Bronx, it's 3am and Valentina Suriani, who's 18 and Alexander east, who's 20, are sitting in Valentina's car, kissing. And each one is shot twice. Suriani died instantly. Esau died a few hours later in the hospital. And it says again, it's a.44. And they were only parked a few blocks away from the Loria Valenti shooting. So then at the crime scene, they find a handwritten letter. And it's from the killer, and it's addressed to Police Captain Joseph Borelli. And this is where the name Son of Sam comes from. Is this letter okay? So basically it reads, I'll do. I'm just going to do pieces because it's really long. It starts out, I am deeply hurt by your calling me a woman hater. I am not. But I am a monster. I am the Son of Sam. I am a little brat. When Father Sam gets drunk, he gets mean. He beats his family. Sometimes he ties me up to the back of the house. Other times he locks me in the garage. Sam loves to drink blood. Go out and kill, commands Father Sam. Behind our house. Some rest.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know this at all.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's just fucking crazy nonsense. Yeah, but it ends like this. I want to make love to the world. I love people. I don't belong on Earth. Return me to Yahoo. Yahoos. To the people of Queens, I love you and I want to wish all of you a happy Easter. What the. May God bless you in this life and in the next. And for now, I say goodbye and good night. Police. Let me haunt you with these words. I'll be back. I'll be back. To be. Interrupt. To be interpreted as. Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. Ugh. Yours in murder, Mr. Monster.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Monster.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So I am.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That is. I can't even.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it's nuts.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I bet that was, like, even scarier to them that were like, oh, we're not. This isn't a calculated person. This is a lunatic. How are we gonna track down a lunatic? Because you can't use logic. That's right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also. Yeah, that. That wasn't mailed or any. It was left at the murder scene. So it's somebody that kills people and then drops something intentionally. All of it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Jesus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So several psychiatrists are consulted and there's a psychological profile drawn up based on this letter. And he's described as neurotic, probably suffering from paranoid schizophrenia, who believes himself to be the victim of demonic possession. So. May 30, 1977. So at that time, the Daily News had a columnist, a very famous man named Jimmy Breslin, who was like, super famous in New York. A lot of people out. Not that many people outside know him, but he was like. He was like one of those, like tough, you know, reporters of New York that I was, you know, hard boiled. He was. I would call him hard boiled.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Someone to call me hard boiled one day.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They will. They will. So the Son of Sam sends Jimmy Breslin a letter. Oh, shit. And on the back of the envelope he wrote the phrases, blood and family, darkness and death, absolute depravity. And just.44 with a dot in front of it. So like.44 caliber. And then I'll just read you how it starts because it, it's. It's just more blather. But it starts. Hello from the gather gutters of nyc, which are filled with dog manure, vomit, stale wine, urine and blood.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, is he wrong?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know he's dead on. It's summertime, so he's probably very frustrated, Right. Hello from the sewers of nyc which swallow up these delicacies when they are washed away.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Jesus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

By the sweeper trucks. Hello from the cracks in the sidewalks of nyc and from all the ants that dwell in these cracks and feed in the dried blood of the dead that is settled into these cracks.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is poetry, is it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Jb, I'm just dropping you a line to let you know that I appreciate your interest in those recent and horrendous.44 caliber killings. I also want to tell you that I read your columns and Daily, and I find it quite informative. Tell me, Jim, what will you have for July 29th?

[Georgia Hardstark]

See this one?

[Karen Kilgariff]

He seems smart, right? Almost as if he might be putting on an ass of some kind. Okay, so the Daily News publishes this letter a week after they get it with a column from Jimmy Breslin urging the killer to surrender himself. And this article made that day's paper the highest selling edition of the Daily News ever. They sold more than 1.1 million copies. Wow. Oh, and it's after that, that with Jimmy Breslin's column, this is when all the women get their hair cut. Which I just. That's in the movie too. Yeah, and it's hilarious.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I saw it when it came out, but I don't remember it. It's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it's a good movie. I liked it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I just remember that from Ted Bundy, too. Like, didn't have a bunch of girls.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Who had the same haircut.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hell yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Change that out of me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hey, highlights, everybody.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How about a high, high lit Bob?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I also love Son of Summer of Sam, the movie, because it's. It's almost entirely focused on disco.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The murders almost seem like an afterthought.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The murders almost seem like they're powering disco. You know what I mean? Like, disco is a response to the murders. That.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. Or disco is because the murders are creating disco.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Listen, John Leguizamo is just a dream.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Listen, did you want to finish that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Look. Okay, look. Oh, no, that's it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I interrupted you to then say nothing. Okay, so now we're in June 26, 1977. This is in Bayside, Queens. So, yeah, it's like, for people. I. I am from California. So when we talk about all these different parts of all these different boroughs in New York, Queens is a burrow. Bayside is a part of Queens.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. Right, right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, I'm a neighborhood. The Bronx is a burrow. And then the part of the Bronx that I was talking before, Forest Hills, Long Island.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So like the Upper east side is part of Manhattan, but it's own neighborhood, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Manhattan's a borough. And then the Upper east side, part

[Georgia Hardstark]

of that Williamsburg is like. Let's go on for an hour. And neighborhood.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm going to say the wrong thing for sure here. And all I can picture are the people I know who live in New York being very mad at me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, better than us also.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Maybe I'm doing it for attention. Maybe I want you to be mad at me. Maybe I like it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The morning of June 26, 1977. It's 3am Judy Placido and Sal Lupo, which I think Sal Lupo might have been the main character in Summer of Sam. Oh, it just sounds familiar to me, but I could be making it up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I trust you on name recognition.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is where that all falls apart. Okay. They have just left the Eliphys disco and they're sitting in the car and the car's hit by three gunshot blasts. So Judy, Sal Lupo is wounded in the right forearm. Judy Placido is shot in the right temple, in the shoulder, and in the back of the neck. They both survive, which is incredible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And these people who are surviving these mortal up close gun blunts is bananas.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's crazy. So Salupo tells the police they had just been discussing the case of Son of Sam right before. Oh, my God, the gunshot shots hit. Okay, so about a month later, it's July 31, 1977. Stacy Moskowitz, who doesn't know Stacey Moskowitz. And I mean, like the second I read that name I was like, I went to junior high with her. So Stacy and her boyfriend Bobby Violante are taking a walk in the park late at night. Very brave. But they go back to their car when they see a man watching them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But then when they get back into the car. Car, they were so into each other, they start making out. So they don't leave right away. They're kissing in the car when they're hit by bullets. Stacy Moskowitz was shot once in the head. Bobby Violente had been shot twice in the face. Stacy was killed while Bobby Violente would survive, but he lost most of his vision, but he survived from being shot in the head.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So these people in the Burrows have some survivability.

[Karen Kilgariff]

For real. I mean, it's the New York City, baby.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, so this is the shooting that brings out the most witnesses of any of the other Son of Sam murders. There was actually a direct eyewitness. So during the shooting, 19 year old Tommy Zano was parked three cars down or three cars in front of Bobby Violante's vehicle. And moments before the shooting, Zano caught peripheral glimpse of the shooter's approach and then happened to glance in his rearview mirror just in time to see the actual shooting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He clearly saw the perpetrator for several seconds due to a bright street light and a full moon, and later described him as being 25 to 30 years old, 5 foot 7 to 5 foot 9 inches, with shaggy hair that was dark blonde or light brown. But he said that the shooter's hair looked like a wig.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So about a minute after the shooting, a woman in her boyfriend's car on the other side of the park. Park saw a white male wearing a light colored cheap nylon wig sprinting out of the park and get into a small. And he got into a small light colored car that drove away. And she said he looked just like he just robbed a bank. And she also got part of his license plate.4GUR or for GVR. There were other witnesses. One including a woman who saw a light car speed away from the park 20 seconds after the gun. And at least two witnesses who described a yellow Volkswagen driving quickly from the neighborhood with its lights off. One of a neighborhood resident hears the gunshots, hears Bobby Violenti's calls for help, glances out her apartment window to see a man walking casually away from the crime scene while everyone else was running toward the sounds of the screaming.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And oh my God, I'm so excited right now. This is like so tense.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. And multiple other residents so this, he was seen by tons of people that night. They witnessed a scruffy looking man with dark, stringy hair and stubble driving a small yellow car recklessly away from the scene. He almost crashed into a car. He ran a red light, almost crashed into a guy. The guy started following him because he was so pissed that the guy almost killed him. But he, he, he could only. He only followed him so far, and then he lost him. And then later found that it was Son of Sam. Okay, so on the same night, local resident Cecilia Davis is walking her dog. This is like the woman that brings it all together, which I love.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cecilia.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's walking her dog at the scene of the Moskowitz Violante shooting. So she sees patrol officer Michael Catano ticket a car, a yellow car, by a fire hydrant. And then moments after that cop left, a young man walks past her and studies her with some interest. And she feels concerned because he's got a dark object in his hand. So she, she said he was wielding a dark object. She doesn't know what it is. She just runs home only to hear shots fired moments later. So she calls the police. She doesn't say anything for four days. And then she calls the police.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Police.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And they start checking every car that got ticketed that night in that area.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Chances, man. And not only did they ticket it, but someone saw it happen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then knew about the murders.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And someone saw. What she saw happen was a guy that gave her weird vibes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then she put all of it together where it's like, yeah, you got away from the man that was endangering you, then you stayed with it, witnessed something, and then reported it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally love it. Love it. I love it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Way to go, Cecilia Davis.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Celia.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And her dog Marty.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Most of the dog. Marty. Oh, he made it so excited that that was actually the dog's name. Like, oh, no, wait, she made it up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm like, oh, sorry, it's your dad's name. Okay. So the next day, police investigate. They go and they check Berkowitz's car. It's one of the several that got ticketed that night. And they see it's parked outside his apartment building building at 35 Pine street in Yonkers. There's a rifle in the backseat.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Uh huh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hide your rifle.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Right. So they search the car. They're like, that's probable cause. They search the car and they find a duffel bag filled with ammunition, maps of the crime scenes, a threatening letter addressed to Inspector Timothy Dowd of the Omega Task Force. So they know they probably have their man. They put it together, they put in a request for a search warrant, but they know they're very concerned with going into his apartment without having it because they don't want to lose the case. So they stand out. They wait outside David berkowitz's apartment until 10:00 clock at night. And when he comes out and gets into his car and he had a paper bag with him and that.44 was inside the bag.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He gets in the car, sits down, and then Detective John Falotico approaches the driver's side and puts the gun right against, right next to Berkowitz's temple. And then Detective Sergeant William Gardella covers from the passenger side with his gun inside the car.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And David Berkowitz is taken into custody for the Son of Sam murders. They say it's reported that he was very calm and very serene. Almost seemed happy. Wow. So when they search his apartment the next day, apartment 70, they find the walls are covered in satanic reflection graffiti. The whole apartment is a complete mess. There's liquor bottles everywhere. And they also find three stenographers notebooks where Berkowitz had meticulously recorded hundreds of arson fires that he had set.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hundreds?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. He had been recording it since he was 21. Some sources allege that the number of arson fires he recorded was over 1400.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Was he recorded or sent?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, he wrote them into these notebooks.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And they believe that they correspond to real fires that happened around.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The Bronx and Queens and Manhattan. Manhattan, Brooklyn, don't forget. Certainly don't forget Long Island. Is Long Island a borough?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think so.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What about Coney Island?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think that's a neighborhood.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And what about the island where the Statue of Liberty lives?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, you mean Liberty Island.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Freedom Island. All right, now, people are legit mad, angry.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like even they, even they know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He is questioned for half an hour and then immediately cops to everything and explains to the cops in great detail all of the crimes that he perpetrated. And when they ask him why, he says his neighbor Sam Carr's black line, Harvey was possessed by an ancient demon. And Harvey made him do it because he wanted the blood of pretty young girls.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What? So wait, okay, so that's why he called himself Son of Sam. Is the neighbor's name was Sam.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sam Carr and Sam Carr's dog, like it was. He was.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But I don't get it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So. But later. So, you know, I've been listening to the audiobook of Those who fight monsters. Which is the guy from who basically the FBI, ViCAP, all that. John E. Douglas, I think his name is. But he interviewed David Berkowitz years later when they were putting together their. When they decided they were gonna start profiling serial killers so they could get profiles of them, whatever. But he basically got David Bergatz to admit that all of this shit was fake. The whole thing about the dog talking to him and everything was made up of it was completely made up so that he didn't seem responsible and that he could get off on the insanity plea. And it was purely because he was so angry at women. He had never had success with women. He was an angry man. He was very angry. He was very. Like a spoiled child. I think it was that thing he didn't know how to handle. He wasn't idol.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He knew his fault and didn't get it. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And so he just wanted everyone to pay for. For his loneliness and lack of popularity.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which seems like such a narrative of a lot of spree killers that are just like. They feel entitled and they're pissed off that everyone else doesn't know that they should be getting everything they want.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It makes me think of that boy in Santa Barbara that killed all those kids in Santa Barbara. It's the exact same thing where everybody else. It's not anything that has to do with them. They don't take any personal responsibility. It's everybody else that everyone else has to pay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I guess narcissism and, you know, extreme.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Fucked up shit. Jesus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Anyway, he basically. He is tried, found guilty on June 12, 1978. He's sentenced to six life terms totaling a maximum of 365 years in prison. They send him to Attica. In 1987, he becomes a born again Christian.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Good luck with that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And before his first parole hearing in 2002, he sent a. A letter to the governor of New York.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wait, he lived that? How did I not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's still alive.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's still alive?

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's still alive?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. He was only in his 30s when he was.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But I would have thought that they put him to death or something.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, it's. He admitted to everything, so they didn't give him the death.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, go on. Jesus Christ. You just blew my mind.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know. Isn't that crazy? He sent a letter to George Pataki, who was the governor of New York at the time, after asking to have his parole hearing canceled. He said, in all honesty, I believe I deserve to be in prison for the rest of My life I have, with God's help long ago, come to terms with my situation, and I've accepted my punishment.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Then in 1993, he went into this weird thing where he was claiming to be responsible for satanic cult killings. I think he may have gotten bored. He was trying to say that he didn't. He wasn't the only one responsible for the Son of Sam murders, that there were other people, and it was because of this satanic cult and blah, blah, blah. And when that story came out, Jimmy Breslin himself made the statement. When they talked to David Berkowitz that night, which was like, the night he got arrested, he recalled everything step by step by step. The guy has 1000% recall. And that's it. He's the guy. And there's nothing else to look at for sure. So. Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Heavy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Your son.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hitter.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Heavy hitter. Which I always avoid because it's so much research. I know I miss big things and, you know, sorry, Spike Lee, I was

[Georgia Hardstark]

gonna do a heavy Hitter this week, actually. Or like, I was gonna. I was gonna do a heavy hitter this week. You know the thing where you're like, should I do this one or should I do that one? I finished this one, but maybe I'll do this one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then it was just like, no,

[Karen Kilgariff]

Georgia, you need more.

[Georgia Hardstark]

More than 16 hours before you decide to do a Heavy Hitter.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, you really do. And I think my Wikipedia recitation proves that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. No, that was great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

People that shoot from a distant. Like, there is something very. I mean, obviously we're saying this. It's just so lame. It's just so cowardly and weak to, like, stand from a distance and shoot a person and then just be like, I am the Son of Sam.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's emotionally detached in a way that you don't expect from most serial killers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Who are just, like, in it for the suffering and seeing the suffering of others.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, he was. He wanted to end lives because it was about his failures as a man.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He could have been a Mafia hitman.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If you got painted his apartment and got his together.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's tough listening to dogs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That poor dog was like, dude, I fucking love everyone. Don't bring me into this, bitch. All I want are treats.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I just want them to bring me inside every once in a while. That's why I'm barking.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Why am I in the back? Give me a scratch behind the ear every once in a blue.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then don't bring me into your stories.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm not satanic.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I am I love the idea of being possessed by an ancient demon.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not a recent demon.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, the dog maybe was an ancient demon, but it was also like, but I'm past that. I'm born again. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He'd gotten healthy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Okay. And we're back. Karen, any Son of Sam updates?

[Karen Kilgariff]

There are a couple. So first of all, David Berkowitz still is serving a life sentence in upstate New York. Then also in 2025, Netflix released the three part docu series, Conversations with a Killer, the Son of Sam Tapes. And that featured interviews with victims, loved ones, researchers, and former law enforcement assignments of the case. There's also a new interview with David Berkowitz where he emphasizes his remorse and he acknowledges that he should have gotten help sooner.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow. Yeah, I also looked it up. There was a documentary called the Sons of Sam, A Descent into Darkness and Paul Giamatti was a voice in that. And it was really good. It talked a lot about like the culty feeling back then and that like the Cropsy era. Just like how there was just something going on like satanic panic wise.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. That there was kind of like dark things happening and no one could put their finger on it. And so it was like Satan or it's evil or it's that. Now we know it's just Epstein. It was just.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, but also the person who made the documentary thinks there's more than one. That David Berkowitz didn't do it all by himself. Which is. Who the fuck knows? Whatever. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, very possible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it's a good one. All right, let's head back to the show where we are going to wrap it up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, man, that's that, man.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Should we say one thing that makes us happy?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, good idea.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is it sleeping all week? Cuz that's my.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, dude.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sleeping. Can it be? Can there has to be something. Oh, my new car.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can that be mine?

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is. Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. This is the first new car I've ever had in my life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It. It feels so luxurious. It's a Toyota Corolla, which is my first car I ever had. My first. My hand me down, shitty little car that was just like the. The most basic you could get at the time. And this one has like a moon roof and a. An automatic. Like your seat moves automatically.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I've never had a car shapes it to you as you get in. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or it has like the. When you need to move it forward, it just like you don't have to crank it, you know, you don't have to do that while you're driving and accidentally almost hit your face on the steering wheel. Or crash, right? Or crash. Yeah. It has like, it has adult things that I never thought I would ever have in my life. But it's a Toyota, so it wasn't fucking crazy. Expensive. Has a cooch warmer which is like to me, the next level of fucking class.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You can have those all the time. You just, you don't have to wait to get into your car when you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What do you mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

You can fucking slip something. You can do an icy hot pack right into your underwear.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You trying to get me a yeast infection over here? It's just like, it feels, it feels grown up and I'm like, I didn't think I'd ever care about something like this. And I'm really just like pleased and grateful.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's nice.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's nice to be like, oh, I earned something.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I earned it. I think I earned it and I'm really happy about it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's good. Yeah, I guess mine would be. So this, this is Thursday, so tomorrow night I am playing a show with my friends, the band. Sure, sure. The Satellite in la. So if you live in the LA

[Georgia Hardstark]

area, Stephen and I will be there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

These guys are coming. I think I only can only put one name on the guest.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm coming. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But if you are around and we're want, I absolutely guarantee that you will love this band. Sure, sure. They are so good. They are going to be famous. I just.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You played them for me and I was like, it was one of those things like this reminds me of a little of this. And it was all like classic bands that you love. Yes, it's really good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it's not. I told them because we did a show together like four years ago and it was just cuz my friend Kevin is in the band and he was like, do you want to do a show with us? And I told him after the show, I was like, I was so scared to see your band because when do you go see a band? And you're like, that was the best thing ever. It's not that often.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it's intimidating when you go see. Not intimidating when you go see a friend who's like, come see me do this thing. You're like, all right. And you're like, oh my God, you're so talented.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. It's just so exciting and people are great and their music is just so listenable. I mean, I've already given the recommendation

[Georgia Hardstark]

and you're Playing music for us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I am opening for them. Yes. So I'm going to do a couple of my old moldy oldies.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You have some. You have some, like, classic songs, and you have some comedy songs, too, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are you going to do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't think I have classic songs.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You don't do a lot of, like. Well, then you have, like, sad ones.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Classic songs, like, like Goodbye Yellow Brick Road or something.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, no, just, like, not. Not outright comedy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Some of my comedy songs make you sad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But I can still hide behind the comedy part, so that's good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm only going to do a hand. If I was at the show and someone did, like, if they're. I would be like, get off this. I just want to see this band, please. So I'm excited to see you play. I'm excited to play because I haven't done it in a while.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I haven't seen you play since I've known you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah, you got it. I did a show. Yeah, that's right. I did a show when we were in Denver. I got to do. For the High Plains Comedy Festival. I got to go do a variety show after our show, which was super fun. And a bunch of people that were at our show came to that show, too, and I thought it was gonna be kind of shitty because I hadn't played publicly in a really long time, and it was super fun. So I'm super looking forward to it. But more than that, if you like good music, I would recommend being at

[Georgia Hardstark]

this show, I think. Yeah, I think it's gonna. I'm excited.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean. Steven, how long was that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Steven.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Steven.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Um.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fuck.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I like this episode.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that was a good one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Okay, we're back.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right, so as Georgia said, this episode was originally titled Hither and Yon,

[Georgia Hardstark]

but here are some possibilities. We renaming it today based on the episode.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We could call it Cakewalk in the park from when Georgia talks about writing free stories.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I want to use that for something that's like, gotta be a book. And then we could also call it Clubbing with Polyester.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Love it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hey.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, you guys. Well, thanks for listening to another episode of Rewind, and let's go back to the pod loft where we'll say goodbye. Thanks for listening. I don't know. I feel like we have to sign off. Yeah. Rate review, subscribe.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But it's like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, you've already done that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. You do that so much.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We appreciate that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so nice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you guys for listening thank you

[Karen Kilgariff]

for being here with us and stay

[Georgia Hardstark]

sexy and don't get Merchant murdered. Bye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Bye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Elvis, get out of the cat box.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hey, want a cookie? Oh, that? Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Elvis, you want a cookie? Okay. You want cookie?

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right. He's like, yeah. What do I do?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know how. You keep asking me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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