Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 90: Peak Experience

Summary

My Favorite Murder – Rewind with Karen & Georgia: Episode 90 “Peak Experience” (Aired April 1, 2026)

Episode Overview

Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark revisit their 2017 episode “Peak Experience,” providing lively new commentary, anecdotes, and updates. In true MFM style, the hosts blend true crime with humor, offering an in-depth retelling of infamous cases—the Amityville Horror murders by Ronald “Butch” DeFeo Jr. and the chilling crimes of British serial killer Neville Heath. In between murders, the duo riff on obsessions (giants!), pop culture, media recommendations, self-love, and their signature authentic banter.

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Key Segments and Discussion Points

1. Opening Banter: Giants, Wine, and Childhood Stories

Timestamps: [03:30–09:00]

• Show begins with Karen and Georgia back in “Rewind” mode, recapping, updating, and reacting to their old episode.
• Karen reveals her childhood obsession with giants, referencing Guinness World Records and figures like Robert Wadlow and Anna Swan.
  • Karen: “You know that I love giants, right?” [04:52]
  • Georgia: “I had never even thought of that as a thing.” [04:54]
• The hosts joke about Gerard Depardieu’s reported consumption of 14 bottles of wine a day, segueing to wrestling legends and their legendary appetites.
• Early confessional humor: Georgia recounts a childhood embarrassment over incorrectly claiming a bra size for peer acceptance.
• The importance of learning to laugh at oneself and the slow growth of self-acceptance as an adult:
  • Georgia: “No one can fucking make fun of you if you’re like, ‘Oh my God, I can’t believe I said that stupid thing.’” [07:13]
  • Karen: “I think when you’re at that age, you can’t laugh at yourself until you’re around 37.” [07:24]

2. Catching Up: True Crime Media, Cults, and Cold Case Updates

Timestamps: [09:00–12:28]

• Discussing the then-new “Dirty John” podcast and its Irvine, California connections, which evokes Georgia’s own high school PTSD.
• They analyze the wave-like popularity of true crime podcasts similar to “S Town.”
  • Karen: “The first wave is… you have to listen to it. The second wave is always, it wasn’t that good or it sucked.” [10:16]
• Jonestown update: Discussion about recently surfaced propaganda photos from the Peoples Temple commune.
  • Georgia: “It’s basically… from a brochure… all fake.” [10:59]
• Kim Wall case update: Karen recounts news that Peter Madsen, already convicted for Wall’s murder, is now a suspect in additional Scandinavian cold cases.
  • Karen: “He is being looked into for unsolved murders in Norway and Sweden.” [12:23]

3. Pop Culture Corner: Tour Bus Tales, Biopics, and Movie Memories

Timestamps: [13:02–16:12]

• Recommendations: Mike Judge’s animated series “Tales from the Tour Bus” for nostalgic, wild stories from country music’s golden days.
• Revisiting the shock of seeing “Silence of the Lambs” far too young and the formation of a true crime obsession.
  • Georgia: “No wonder I have a fucking true crime obsession. It’s true.” [15:22]
• Discussion of how formative these movies (like “Silence of the Lambs” and “Amélie”) were in shaping them.

4. “Peak Experiences” Philosophy, Self-Image, and True Crime Comfort

Timestamps: [16:12–18:41]

• Karen and Georgia reflect on loving oneself amidst the noise of social media and aging.
• Floating existential truths about life’s brevity (“we’re on a clock here, people”) and finding joy wherever possible.
  • Karen: “Nothing matters. But water is currency… Let’s have some peak experiences before things go to shit.” [16:53]
• Georgia confesses to binging “Cold Case Files” and accidentally exposing her viewing purchases to her husband Vince.

5. Morbid Fascinations & Community Roots

Timestamps: [19:13–24:00]

• Karen brings up the then-raging Northern California wildfires, recounting personal stories about relatives in the affected area.
• Reflection on what material items really matter in an emergency—photos, pets, the irreplaceable.
  • Karen: “We can replace anything in your house. Grab anything that’s irreplaceable if you can.” [20:35]

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Main True Crime Stories Told

1. The Amityville Horror Murders by Ronald “Butch” DeFeo Jr.

Timestamps: [27:29–59:30]
Retold by: Georgia Hardstark

Summary:

• Georgia details the grisly 1974 murders of six members of the DeFeo family in Amityville, NY.
• Sets the scene: The DeFeos are a prosperous, controversial family with possible mob ties who relocate to a grand Long Island house.
• Butch DeFeo’s tumultuous upbringing: abuse, early substance abuse, and spoiling as a flawed fix for behavioral problems.
• The massacre: Butch murders his parents and siblings point-blank with a rifle as they slept, raising mysteries about how no one awoke or responded, and how neighbors heard nothing.
  • Karen: “How did he shoot six people in four different rooms without any of them waking up… all on their stomachs?” [47:39]
• The shifting stories: Butch cycles through blaming the mob, implicating his sister Dawn, and spinning ever-changing tales in later years. The hosts roundly dismiss these as fabrications.
  • Georgia: “It is a thing that they fought a lot too. Don, the older sister, was 18.” [49:49]
• Haunting or hoax? The subsequent Lutz family haunting and bestselling book, which later was revealed as a fiction concocted over wine with DeFeo’s defense lawyer:
  • Georgia: “They later admit it was a hoax… concocted with the help of Butch’s defense lawyer.” [58:18]

Notable Quotes & Moments:

• Georgia: “Once I started, I just couldn’t stop. It went so fast.” (Butch’s confession, cited at [44:00])
• Karen joyfully recalls obsessing over the Amityville Horror book as a schoolkid and cross-examines the elements of the haunting myth versus reality.
• Hosts discuss the difference between wanting to believe in supernatural evil versus accepting real-life familial violence.
  • Karen: “At the end of the day, the truth… is a spoiled asshole drug addict killed his family, which is the thing people can’t face because it’s not a monster.” [60:46]

Updates:

• Georgia: “In 2021, Butch died in prison at 69, of natural causes.” [62:14]
• Notes continuous pop culture impact: new movies, documentaries, and the “inexplicable” elements that fuel the myth.

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2. Neville Heath: The Lady Killer

Timestamps: [67:40–104:01]
Retold by: Karen Kilgariff

Summary:

• Story background: Post-WWII London, a major cultural shift with women newly empowered from the home front.
• Neville Heath: A charismatic, good-looking con man with a criminal past, a history of aliases and impersonations, who moved seamlessly through military and civilian life.
  • Karen: “A blonde with a chin cleft… he got people. People kind of fell in love with him all the time.” [75:54]
• Heath’s crimes: Brutally murders artist Marjorie Gardner (found bound, gagged, whipped, bitten, and violated) and later Doreen Marshall (similarly tortured; found after her disappearance in a seaside resort).
  • Karen: “She’d been punched in the face… nipples savagely bit… an instrument… inserted inside her vagina.” [87:49]
• How he was caught: Carelessness signing in under his own name, arrogance with authorities, and a penchant for “explaining” his actions in manipulating letters.
  • Karen: “He thought everyone would always believe him because they always did.” [92:11]
• Coverage of the trial: His defense pleads insanity, but evidence of methodical cover-up leads to conviction and execution by hanging.
• Chilling final words: To his executioner, Heath quips, “Considering the circumstances, you might want to make it a double.” [102:52]

Notable Quotes & Moments:

• The hosts marvel at his ability to charm and manipulate, agreeing about the dangers of superficially attractive psychopaths.
  • Georgia: “You get away with shit and people get charmed by you.” [92:29]
• Fascination with British “murder gangs” (crime reporters) and how WWII desensitized a population to brutal stories, laying groundwork for true crime’s postwar ascent.

Listener Connection:

• Listener story: A British listener shares their shock at learning, over family dinner, that they’re related to Neville Heath.
  • Georgia: “And this is the only place, [this podcast], where you can say that, and people will go, ‘No way.’” [106:41]

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Quotes, Themes, and Memorable Moments

Running Jokes & Classic MFM Banter

• Ongoing self-deprecation about memory, research accuracy (“Steven, fact-check this!”).
  • Georgia: “Swear to almost, I think.” [19:07]
• Revisiting open obsessions (giants for Karen, miniatures for Georgia); referencing “Karen Loves Giants”—a running gag and new MFM Animated episode. [22:32]
• Honesty about embarrassing misstatements (Danny Glover hosting Cold Case Files) and loving the unapologetically weird parts of themselves and their listeners.

Reflections on Self-Love and Alone Time

Timestamps: [109:12–111:14]

• Georgia discusses the joys of solitude when her husband’s away—not as loneliness, but as a vital personal reset.
  • Georgia: “God, there’s something about being alone… It’s kind of cool to check back in with yourself like that.” [109:41]
• Karen affirms the benefit of silence, not always needing company, and loving small pockets of self-indulgence as healthy and grounding.

Good News and Closure

Timestamps: [107:04–108:55]

• Celebrating community and live podcast events, honoring listeners who go above and beyond (like mug-gifting fans from LA Podfest).
• Affirmation for laughter, connection, and being “all in it together.”

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Suggested Episode Titles (Hosts’ Picks)

• Swear to Almost (Georgia’s factoid confusion)
• Giants for You (Karen’s obsession)
• Insane, Phony, Lunatic Love (on Neville Heath)
• Downerton Abbey (their goth twist on Downton Abbey)

Karen: “At the heart of every story like that [Amityville] is that people want to go, ‘Oh my God, the devil has been here…’ But at the end of the day… a spoiled asshole drug addict killed his family…” [60:46]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

| Time | Segment/Topic | |--------|--------------------------------------------------| |03:30 | Rewind intro, giants talk, banter | |09:00 | Dirty John/Podcast recommendations | |10:59 | Jonestown & Cold Case updates | |12:28 | Kim Wall/Peter Madsen update | |13:02 | Tour Bus Tales, pop culture stories | |16:12 | Self-love, self-image, existential nightcaps | |19:13 | Northern California wildfires | |27:29 | Amityville Horror/DeFeo murders (main story 1) | |67:40 | Neville Heath: The Lady Killer (main story 2) | |107:04 | Live podfest, community reflections | |109:12 | Alone time & self-care reflections | |111:30 | Recap, alternate episode titles |

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Notable Quotes

• Georgia: “No one can fucking make fun of you if you’re like, ‘Oh my God, I can’t believe I said that stupid thing.’” [07:13]
• Karen (on the Amityville DeFeo case): “At the end of the day… a spoiled asshole drug addict killed his family, which is the thing people can’t face because it’s not a monster.” [60:46]
• Karen (on Neville Heath’s final words): “Considering the circumstances, you might want to make it a double.” [102:52]
• Georgia (on alone time): “It’s kind of cool to check back in with yourself like that.” [109:41]
• Listener email discovery: “Your granddad’s cousin, Neville Heath, the serial killer.” [105:23]

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Episode Flow and Usefulness

This “Rewind” episode serves as both a nostalgic trip for longtime listeners and an accessible gateway for new murderinos. By pairing updates, humor, and honest introspection with their signature true crime storytelling, Karen and Georgia provide a thorough, engaging, and reflective journey through infamous murders and cultural moments alike. The blend of self-effacing humor, historical context, and genuine curiosity ensures that even without listening, fans will feel part of the community—and well-versed in both murder and MFM lore.

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Stay Sexy and Don’t Get Murdered!

Transcript

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

Hello, hello and welcome to Rewind with Karen in Georgia.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Every Wednesday we recap our old shows with all new commentary, updates and insights.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Today we're recapping episode 90, which we named Peak Experience.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This episode came out on October 12, 2017.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, let's listen to the intro of episode 90.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Steven, you have to be like a fucking on the street reporter when we're being so interesting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Always be recording abr. Abr. Everyone knows this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Always be recording with us.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If we're going to talk about Gerard Depardieu, we need everyone to hear it in the world.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Breaking news, America.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Gerard Depardieu admits to drinking 14 bottles of wine a day.

[Karen Kilgariff]

God damn, dude. His teeth must be more stained than mine.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, not stained, they're falling out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, perhaps, but he's so drunk he doesn't give a fuck.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think that's how much Andre the Giant would drink. That's right. Do you know that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

And like, yeah, he'd eat like 12 chickens and drink like 17 six packs of beer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I wish Vince McErnick and ask him, because that's what he would actually do. And Vince hated red wine. And then he found out that Andre the Giant loved Bordeaux. No, I'm sorry. He loved boujolee wine. So we tracked it down. Like now we drink Beaujolais wine because Andre the Giant drank it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know that I love giants, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, wait. What?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's one of my jams.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I had never even thought of that as a thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I'm obsessed. Oh, welcome. This is my favorite Murder the podcast

[Georgia Hardstark]

I want to start at. But I'm obsessed with giants. Cause the rest of it was all bullshit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, was it or was it some of the best podcasting we've ever

[Georgia Hardstark]

done that anyone's ever done? Breaking ground, America.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Robert Wadlow was in the Guinness Book of World Records. And if you are a child of the late 70s, early 80s like myself, before there was the Internet, before there were cell phones and smartphones, before there really even was that much tv, we just had four channels. You did things like sit in your aunt's l and read the Guinness Book of World Records.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did that so hard, right? Fuck yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fat twins on motorcycles, longest nails in

[Georgia Hardstark]

the world, longest hair. Giants.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I love giants. I had no idea Robert Wildlow was in the Guinness Book of World Records. He's the tallest man, I think. The tallest man from America. Yeah, he was. I was gonna say 7 foot 12.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And this is my favorite murder podcast.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hello. Now you know it's really us. That was like the pin number of proving that it's us by me saying Robert Wildlow was 7 foot 12.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did I ever tell you my bra story when I was in elementary school? I'm like, I've had flattish chest forever, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

In the Guinness Book.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, As a matter of fact. No. But when I was little, I had, like, no boobies like most kids do. But like sixth grade, when girls start to get their boobies. And so everyone was sitting around talking about, like, what bra size they have now. And someone was like, I have a 34A and I have this and that. And I went, well, I have a 35A. Cause I. And they were like, that's not. I was so embarrassing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, you just. You were just trying to compete. I was just trying to get in there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. When you just look at my. Anyways.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But now I just remind you, every girl in that circle did the exact same thing at a different period of time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that's what no one ever talks about. And sometimes that's why people are so mean, is cause people were mean to them when it happened to them. So then when someone else does it, they descend like fucking.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And they're so happy it's on someone. The attention's on on someone else and not them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's what it's all about.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Do you know what? This is the. This is the reason. And I wish I had had this when I was done, is how to laugh at yourself. Because that just. No one can fucking make fun of you if you're like, oh, my God, I can't believe I said that stupid thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. It doesn't affect you, but I think when you're at that age like, you can't laugh at yourself until you're around 37. In my experience, that's how old I am. Well, congratulations.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you. I'm now laughing at myself.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's going to be so much fun.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God, I can't wait.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, but the thing is, you have to drink 12 bottles of wine a day. You have to Depardie that shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I got about three more bottles to go today, and I'm good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's get you there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Go there. I just love that people have these interests, giants for you that you would never think of as a thing that you're really into.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Have you ever heard of Anna Swan, the giantess of Nova Scotia?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Of course not. I'm a normal person.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's humongous. She's humongous and amazing looking. And she married a giant. So they were traveling circus people because they were both huge.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And look her up because there's pictures where there are people standing in front of her looking up, and she's like two grown men standing on each other hiding in a dress to get into the movies, dressed as an as well. But I love her because apparently people. She got constant marriage proposals.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's like part of her story where I'm just like, what? Where's this world? Yeah, I want to go to that world.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I want to be a giant. Yeah, that's fucking cool.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's the best. Sorry, I didn't mean to go back to giants.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I want. That's all I wanted to talk about this whole time is your obsession with giants. I really do love when people have this thing that they know all about and are obsessed with.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it's pretty cool.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so cool. Hey, this is my favorite part of the podcast. That's Karen Kilgariff. I'm Georgia Hardstock.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, I have a couple things this week to talk about.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Now we're really being serious before we start the murder.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, Everyone could stop telling us to listen to Dirty John. Yes, it's happening. It's been a new podcast. It's happening. I've listened to an episode and a half. Here's the two problems I have with it. One, Vince found out the ending and told me for some reason, but I did think, like, I'm not gonna listen. Just tell me. And he told me, oh, then that's your fault. It's totally my fault. And then the other thing is the women, the daughters who are being interviewed in the podcast, they're from Irvine, which is where I'm from and sound like every girl I went to high school with and it's giving me fucking ptsd.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's a serious problem.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You don't want that in your head.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't. But it's a good story and I'm excited to listen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, people are going crazy about it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. It reminds me of S Town a little bit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So I'm.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Listen. I got my heart broken by S Town. So. Dear John. I mean, dear John. I'm gonna need you to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Dear John. You mean the Judd Hirsch series?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

People get obsessed. And here's what I love. I sit back when those things hit and I just let em go. I let everything wash over. And then I watch how the first wave is. Everyone going, this is amazing. You have to listen to it. The second wave is always, it wasn't that good or it sucked.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's who I am.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. And then I wait a little bit longer and then there'll always be someone that's like, no, here's the situation. Right? Nothing's perfect, but it's like. But it gets you here and you'll like it because of this. And it's. And it's interesting or whatever.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think it's just. It's a different. It's such a specific story that it's not gonna appeal to everyone. So them saying everyone's obsessed with it. We're just like, no, some people aren't that into like, you know, fraud stories or whatever. Okay. The other thing. And then Stephen sent us a couple news links that some new photos from Jonestown came out. Oh, and it's from when they're in Ghana.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it's basically photos that look like. I think this is what most of them are, like from a brochure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's propaganda, like trying to get people to move to Jonestown.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Look how happy everyone is. They're smiling, they're working, they're living on a commune, you know, and look how great everyone looks. Although, you know, there's no such thing as race here. And everyone works and everyone loves it and the children are learning, but it's all fake. And then there's like one photo of. There's a couple photos from the day they all killed themselves.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, he killed them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, he killed them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it's just fucked up. So if you're into that shit, like, I am. Some new pictures.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry, I had an update.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, please.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And this one, lots of people have been sending and I appreciate it. We actually talked about it. At La Podfest. But the journalist Kim Wall that I did that story about that the guy built Peter Madsen, who built his own submarine. And then she was a journalist who went to do the story about it. She rode around in this harbor with him and then she ended up disappearing. He said that she hit her head and that he dumped her body at sea. And then a bag of her body parts were found floating in the ocean, including her decapitated head with no injuries on it, which means she did not hit her head, but. And now Peter Matson is being looked into for unsolved murders in Norway and Sweden.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I didn't know that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's brand new. That's a story on AP from 10 hours ago.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. That's fucking cr. I love when. I mean, I don't love when. You know what I mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, just that this is developing. This is unlike so many things where we're like. And then we just never hear about it again. This is still a developing story. And I think it's because so many journalists loved her and she was a well respected journalist.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And there's not a lot of murders there, it seems like in Norway or Sweden or wherever.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This, this was Denmark, I think.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right, listen, look, look and listen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's another show that's out. It's Mike Judge's Tales from the Tour Bus. And this is completely off of any topic of true crime or anything. This is purely a joyous thing Mike Judge is making. And it is. People who toured, worked for, had anything to do with country singers of the past telling stories about working with them. So the first issue. Yes, exactly. Well, just in general, the first episode is Johnny Paycheck, who is the guy that wrote Take this Job and Shove It. Oh, yeah, and it's amazing. The guy was in. He was a lunatic.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's animated for the most part with old footage as well.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it's. Yes, exactly. So they'll show you pictures of the album covers and some real things, but then most of it is animation and it's all these band members, hairdressers, relatives. It's so great telling stories. So there's. So far they've done Johnny Paycheck, George Jones and Tammy Wynette and Jerry Lee Lewis, which is crazy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fucking married his child. Cousin.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. She was 14. She's on it. She talks on it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Shut up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I need to watch that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like she's in her 60s now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I just remember as a kid, Great Balls of Fire, that movie about the biopic Movie? That's not a thing. I loved it. We went and saw it at the movie theater. It was so great. It was so much fun.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I loved it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was pedophile. Why were they letting me watch it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Parents. Well, it was a different time. And that's why we're trying to make America great again.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can I tell you what I did watch the other. Oh, sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Speaking of pedophile, what I did watch the other day, and I hadn't realized how long ago it had been since I watched it was Silence of the Lambs. Oh, yeah. I've seen the ending a million times, but I hadn't actually watched the first. It's so good. I want to cry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Katherine Martin, FBI. You're safe.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I didn't understand any of it back then. You know what I mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

You mean when you first watched it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Like, I didn't understand how she figured out how he knew who Buffalo Bill was and how this and how that. Cause you know why? I looked up what year it came out and I saw it in the theater and have seen it a million times. I was 11 years old.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When I watched Buffalo, watched Signs of the Lambs in a fucking theater.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's hilarious.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He threw a cum at her face.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, he did.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I was like, what was Georgia.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The idea that you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I didn't know. How could they let me watch that? No wonder I have a fucking true crime obsession. It's true.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's so funny because you were 11 watching that down in Irvine. I was 21 in Sacramento. Kindred spirit. We watched it at the Tower Theater. And I remember this thing rolling out in front of me and I had already read the book and I was watching it, every second of it. I was just like, this is the best movie. This is the best movie ever. Like, I was losing my mind.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So it was me. So happy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was my Star Wars.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Amelie was my Star Wars. I think because I was like a hipster 19 year old. Like, I love her. I want to be her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That movie's amazing. That movie holds up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, for sure. Love it. So charming. Yeah. Silence of the Lambs. Thanks, mom and dad. You've ruined me now. Look at me. I'm the best. I pick loving myself over photos.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do it. I'm trying. It's just a matter. I had a really good day of loving myself up until I opened Twitter and saw this picture where I'm like, am I in denial that I'm going bald and just not seeing it? What the fuck happened? And then I'm like, oh, that's right. It's my gray roots.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Fuck.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fuck it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck everything. Fuck it. Fuck the world. Yeah, fuck it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, look, listen, my friend Molly said on the phone the other day, she was like, I mean, the bomb's gonna drop, right? So let's do this thing. She was talking about, like, I was flirting with a barista or something like that. And then it was just like, oh, my God, you're so right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Nothing matters.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're on a clock here, people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nothing matters. But water is currency.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Water is currency. Let's have some peak experiences before things go to shit. You know what I mean?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Peak experiences sound like someone, something, someone on their way to Burning man would say, totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're about to have a peak experience. Yeah, let's try to out there every day. And if. If your peak experience is drinking nine bottles of wine, do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My peak experience is staying at home and chilling out and watching. Oh, I. I paid. Oh, my God. Okay, last thing. I swear to God, Vince was gone all week, out of town, so I was, like, going to be my natural self, which is, turns out the most disgusting, like, person. Like, the sheets had been taken off before we left. And I didn't ever put sheets on my bed. Oh. I just slept on random sheets I threw on top of.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So you were kind of squatting in your own house?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I was squatting. I'm gross. It was horrible. And then one night, I was like, I'm staying home and drinking whiskey and I wanna watch Cold Case Files. And then I get a text from Vince saying, you're watching Cold Case Files. And I realized it was because I had just spent $20 on season one of Cold Case Files on our Amazon. And it's under his name. And so it emailed him to let him know that his wife just spent $20 to watch season one of Col

[Karen Kilgariff]

of a show that probably, if you put it into your DVR, it would bring up 29 episodes. If you put it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If you go to YouTube, it's like, here's everything for free.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And you're like, no, I'm gonna pay premium.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I want Bill Curtis to have that money.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think he needs more brown leather jackets. And I'm gonna be the one that buys the.

[Georgia Hardstark]

For it. I owe him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He has narrated our lives.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's narrated my life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He has brought a somber and reasonable attitude.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Very reasonable.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Terrible, terrible murders and crimes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yep.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And he's been there for us.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you, Bill.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And he let us know that justice was right around the corner.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God. I love Cold Case Files. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Was he the host of Cold Case Files?

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know what's weird? Danny Glover was originally the host.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What the fuck?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Excuse me?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Swear to God. Except fact check that, Steven. Like swear to almost, I think. But you know, it's gonna be some actor that's like super similar. But I can never remember who's whom.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, who's whom. Though you do remember to say whom.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, I'm not that stupid.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, I should say this. The Northern California wildfires are intense and crazy and huge swaths of where I grew up is burning down.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm obsessed with those photos, which is terrible, but in a fucking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The comparative ones of the neighborhood and

[Georgia Hardstark]

the neighborhood, it's just like the thought of your house being turned to fucking ash.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And those people, the people that. It's like. There's a neighborhood slightly north of the main city of Santa Rosa. But Santa Rosa is the next city up from Petaluma. That's where we used to go to the mall to get clothes for school. You had to go to the next city up and the neighborhood, it's like a little bit north of the main city. The people were woken up at 1:30 in the morning with people just saying run. They didn't get any kind of emergency. Like it was just panic. Grab whatever you could and run out of your house as you're as. Like the flames were coming.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you ever think about, like, aside from pets, obviously, what you would grab?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it's pictures, I think, mostly like my computer. That's the good thing is my sister started packing tonight just in case. Cause there's still more fires and everybody now just wants to be ready. But we were like, everything's on the computer. Like pictures are now on computers. Like there's like a couple.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But like, I mean, I love my shit, but it's all just. Just chachkes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's all. That's what I said to my sister. I go, we can replace anything in your house. Grab anything that's irreplaceable if you can.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I guess there's a photo album. I don't know. Whatever. You guys stay safe. And we are back into 2026.

[Karen Kilgariff]

My God. We're just talking about a brand new podcast called Dirty John.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I can't imagine how Vince spoiled that for me. Like, how did he know about it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Had he already known about this story?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I doubt it. I'm the true crime one in the family. I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But did he just have the instincts where he's just like, yeah, it's that guy. That guy's no good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Definitely. Speaking of being that guy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Gerard Depardieu is just like a fucking trash monster, it turns out.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that didn't all pay. It's so weird having a show this long where you can literally look back for like 10, almost 10 years before and be like, yeah, that actually didn't pan out so well. That didn't age us.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Talking about Drug Depot Purdue. No, it did.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nobody's getting out of here live. I'm telling you that right now. Danny Glover. No way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, Danny Glover has nothing to do with Cold Case Files. What the. Where did I get that from? That would be great, though. Can I suggest it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, I think you were thinking of a different show and a different host. But that was what it was like back then.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm saying that we just didn't know anything. And it was. And that's okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We really were like, oh, well, whatever. Throw it out there, Stephen.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Keep recording. Because this is. This is brilliant information that they need. Steven.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Still very funny. Also, sorry, if anybody's gonna call me a late comer to this whole giants trend. I was there for crazy how hilarious

[Georgia Hardstark]

we were just talking about it. That I was like, you, like. I didn't know you like giants. What?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. We can't remember everything from 10 years ago. That's hilarious.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's actually perfect timing because MFM Animated's newest episode is literally called Karen Loves Giants.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I won't drop it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's on our YouTube page at YouTube.com exactlyrightmedia. Well, you shouldn't, because it's new information for me every couple years.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's. Well, it's good to update other people about our little preferences and our peccadillos.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is it peccadillos?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I was just thinking, imagine if they came out with an Italian giant. I'd lose my mind.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They came out with. There's a line.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's just a apple comes out with an Italian giant that you can have your own.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If you know an Italian giant, please email us at. My favorite. I'm sure there's one out there already. They make them in every flavor, right. It's like, there's gotta be someone do

[Karen Kilgariff]

something about my needs being met. I have other stuff to do and I can't do it for myself.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It explains the 12 foot tall skeleton now, though. Like really well.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, you know, it's all been in there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just waiting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I like miniatures. And you like enormous things.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So opposites ease. Oh yeah, we're gonna get into this episode now. And we absolutely should because oh man, I can remember you telling me this episode and the information that you were giving about the real story behind the Amityville Horror Murders. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

You can offer courses, videos, blogs or memberships directly on your site, all behind a paywall you control.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Go to squarespace.com murder for a free

[Karen Kilgariff]

trial and when you're ready to launch, use Offer code MURDER to save 10 off your first purchase of a website or domain. Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

Bombas underwear are my new go to underwear. This is tmi, but I don't care because they are so comfortable. I can wear them with a dress and there'll be no vpl. You know what I mean? Like they're just perfect.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Head over to bombas.com and use code MFM for 20% off your first purchase.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's B O M B A S.com, code MFM at checkout.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye.

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

Are you first or am I first?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think it's you, Steven.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think it's me too. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Are we counting that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, we're counting what happens to us.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're counting what we decide.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I'm gonna go first. All right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Have a peak experience with this one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right. It's October, everyone's favorite month. It's fucking Halloween time. Listen, let's do this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like you're giving me a sales pitch in a voice that says, I'm not interested. I'm not interested in working with you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, I did this murder cause I wanted to do it. And then I realized I could fucking tag it on to the fact that it's Halloween time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But it's very loose.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So I don't. I'm not. I'm not married to it. You know what I mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Got it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I also watched this. The way I actually did think of doing this is I watched this movie on Netflix, like a Netflix movie that I Had heard nothing about called little evil that ended up being so fucking good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's basically if the kid from, like, if Satan's spawn. The spawn of Satan had a mother, and the mother was Evangeline Lilly, and she married a man who became the spawn of Satan's stepdad. And it is Adam Scott.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it's so charming and so cute and funny. I don't know how this just, like, went under the radar. And Bridget Everett is, like, his sidekick. Wow. It's such a charming movie.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So it's like a. It's like comedy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's a dark comedy. That's awesome. It's so good. So please go watch it. And then I thought, oh, that's fun. So here is. Here's the story. The real story behind the Amityville Horror.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You ready for this?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, just really quick. And I know I've said this a thousand times. The hardback book of the Amityville Horror. So it's shaped like a paperback, but it had a hard, white cover.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Huh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Was the book in my grammar school library that I checked out so many times. Sister Rita Rose got mad at me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I forgot that it was that book. And now I feel like I've stolen a murder from you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You have not.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I celebrate this, and I'm thrilled.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. I want to tell baby Karen a little Karen about this story.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, she's right here.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, I'm gonna tell her right now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I don't want you to. That's what she's like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right. So, of course everyone knows about the Amityville Horror. The movie. It's this haunted house that's, like, you know, inhabited by Satan and all this bullshit. But I don't know. People maybe don't know that it's actually based on an actual story that happened before the haunting.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. I was a huge fan of the book, me and sister Rita Rose. What I loved about the book was the fact or this story. Whether or not it's true is it starts out as, oh, they find out this horrible thing happened in their house, but then they find out that there's something else going on. So they. But that could completely be for, like, the book and movie. Who knows if that part is real?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'll tell you. I'll fucking tell you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sweet.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Here we go.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right. So the family, the DeFeo family. They consist of Ronald DeFeo Senior. He's 44, and his wife Louise, 42. Ronald is a car salesman at the family dealership. Super fucking successful. Mob ties maybe? Probably pretty much. Definitely.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, don't all Italians have mob ties?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. She just defended a quarter of our listeners.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How dare you?

[Georgia Hardstark]

So the random fucking car dealership is doing so well in Brooklyn that the DeFeo family is able to move from their apartment in Brooklyn to a three story colonial in the charming town of Amityville on Long island, about an hour outside of the city.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do the whole thing in that voice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. I was trying to be a real estate agent.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that's fine. That's why you put that neckerchief on

[Georgia Hardstark]

and baked some cookies.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right. They chose this home. And as you saw on the COVID of the Amityville book, it's a piece of Americana, two stories plus an attic. It's huge and sprawling. There's a boathouse right on the Amityville river. And out front they put a sign post that says hi, basically naming the house. So it's this gorgeous, huge colonial house.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It has eyes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It looks like it has eyes. Cause it has these two windows up in the attic that look like eyes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So the oldest of the Defeo children is Ronald Butch DeFeo Jr. He's born on September 26, 1951. Ronald Sr. The dad, is a domineering man. And he would fucking pick fights with his wife and children. He was physically abusive. And the target of a lot of this abuse was Ronald Jr. I'm gonna call him Butch partly. Cause he was the eldest. So there's a lot of expectations on him. And it's said that he would beat the shit out of him. He'd throw him against a wall and hit his head. So there's the head injury aspect that we all know and love. So as Butch gets older, he starts fighting back. And he's also known as a bully at school. He's just like, angry, mean kid.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Bullies get bullied. Bullies are bullies because they've been bullied.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Exactly. So the parents, they try to take him to Butch to a psychiatrist. He fucking refuses to go. And so instead they're like, let's just appease and placate him. And they start buying him anything he wanted and giving him money. Like that's their solution.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I bet it worked, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, you know what? The only way we would know if someone would do it to us, that's we should try it. Is all I'm saying.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What a bizarre plan. I mean, like. Cause I understand that they were rich, but that. I feel like never in the history of man has that worked.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Clearly, it's never worked up. But I understand. Especially back in the 70s, it's like, well, here's what we'll do. If he's never unhappy, he's never gonna get mad.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And so they start buying him a bunch of shit, including a $14,000 speedboat when he was 15.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What?

[Georgia Hardstark]

$14,000 today would buy you a nice car back then. Can you imagine this?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, so these people, something happened, and they're swimming in money.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Why would the son's owner of a car dealership in Brooklyn have that much fucking money?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, quality salesman. Just. He's really friendly and he's got a couple pinky rings. Not just one, like, normal car salesman, but a couple.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, that's the other thing, too, is he looks like Tony Soprano. Yeah, he's got that big, bulky, you know, intimidating presence. He's kind of, you know, he speaks like a Long islander, which I will refuse to do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hey, the parkway's over by my pocketbook. A lot of that kind of shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Why is there a parkway by his pocketbook?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Those are the two words that remind me of Long Island. Because my friend Vicky, I used to work with my friend Vicki, who is from Long Island. And those are the first, like, two things I heard her say on, like, one of the first days that we worked at Ellen together, where I was like, where are you from? There's no such thing as a parkway out here.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And pocketbooks, wallets.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Stop it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Calm down.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She also used to always say, food shopping. I'm gonna go food shopping. Where? I'm like, that's just shopping, you know, I don't care. You have to specify.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, no, we get it. It doesn't matter.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I had. I just got my food shopping done.

[Georgia Hardstark]

How about you? I just went shopping for food.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How about you don't tell me about your fucking errands?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just.

[Georgia Hardstark]

How about we all do it? Listen, I love you, Vicky. Italians Vicky. And Long Islanders.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Vicki Ernst.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Apologies in advance. Boop, boop, boop, Bah. Okay. Of course, not surprisingly, it only made things worse. And by 17, Butch had become an LSD and heroin user. Oh, Butch is like heroin in the 70s. Crazy, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's when it was really organic. It's just a gorgeous golden brown.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was like a pure trip.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was more of. It was what the Native Americans did around that area.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was like a peace pipette with heroin injected into your arm.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I do feel like, though, people were so naive about drugs in the 70s. Like, my friend Jerry had a story about doing, I think they called it windowpane, which is that intense acid from the 70s. No, but she said they were tripping for days, and every day they saw the whole world in a different color. So the first day it was red, and the second day was purple. And I was kind of cool.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But I don't want that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It sounds. It makes me sick to my stomach.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I was thinking that too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's just like, won't ever end. And that was just like. Because they walked home from school and a guy was like, hey, do you want to buy this acid?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, he loved it. He loved making them trip that hard. Oh, fuck that crazy. Okay. I ate crayons as a joke once when I was on lsd. Let's not talk about it. My friend and I were like. Like, let's chew these crayons up and see what happens when we spit them out. I bet it'll be really pretty. Oh, my God. Cut this immediately.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Was it pretty?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was gorgeous.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I wore a vinyl dress to my own Christmas party. And I was answering the door, and people were like, are you okay? And then I realized it was. Cause my. I was so cold, my lips were blue. But I was like, this outfit is amazing. I look like I'm from space. Hosting a party on asset. Not a good idea.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Never, ever. Don't do dress. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Don't do drugs.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Everybody expelled from school as well. So at 18, he's expelled from school, and they're like, you know what? You know, it'll fix him. Let's give him a job at the family car dealership. Yes, let's do that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There it is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's not give him a lot of responsibilities, and let's give him a large salary. Boom.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry, you're reading me the Donald Trump story. What's happening? Ooh, ooh. Political. You better be careful.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I liked them till they got political. My fucking mom.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, okay, so he's the boss's son, asshole that's coming in on a full salary, but doesn't have to do anything.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The boss's son and then the boss's boss's grandson. Oh, and he's just like, pay me, motherfuckers.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How about you pay me?

[Georgia Hardstark]

And he looks. He looks. And he's probably the original Brooklyn hipster. He looks like this Brooklyn hipster.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sideburns.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What more do you need? Sideburns, beard, like, 70s garb. But it's because it's in the 70s, right? You know what I mean? It's not just like fucking bedbug used outfits from a thrift store. Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's the real deal.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It is real. So, okay, he uses the money, the salary he makes to buy guns, alcohol and drugs and continues his shitty behavior, which included run ins with the law, blah, blah, blah. Okay. Once, during a fight between his. So his mom and dad were fighting, meaning the dad was like fucking bullying the mom. Butch points a 12 gauge shotgun at his father and pulls the trigger. The gun malfunctioned and didn't fucking shoot.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So this guy's out of his mind. So in the weeks before the murder, this thing happened where? But it's 1974. Butch is given the job of depositing more than 20 grand from the car dealership to the bank. They're like, go to the bank, deposit this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Use your boat.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Use your boat. Which is like, why are you giving this kid that money? And not surprisingly, he reports that he had been robbed at gunpoint while he was waiting at a red light. But he had actually planned the mock robbery. And at first the dad seemed to believe it. But when the police showed up to question him, which is like, stick with your story, bro. He fucking loses his shit and is super pissed off and refuses to cooperate. And then so his dad realizes something isn't right and he thinks his son was up to it. And Butch threatens to kill him. So.

[Karen Kilgariff]

To kill the dad again.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Now, a week later. Cut to the early morning hours of November 13, 1974. The family is sleeping and Butch goes around with a shotgun. So the first shot, he goes into his parents room. They're sleeping on their stomachs. The first shot hits Ronald Sr. In the back, tearing through his kidney and exiting through his chest. He fired another round into his back and it pierces his father's spine and lodged in his neck. He's dead. Then he shoots his mother twice as well. It shatters her rib cage, collapses her right lung. And physical evidence shows that Louise's mother was awake when she was shot. Like she went to turn around to see what was going on. They're both on their stomachs when they're found. Then Butch goes into his sweet baby brother's rooms. Mark, who's 12, and John Matthew, who's 9. And shoots them both while they're face down in their beds. And then he ends by shooting his sisters point blank versus Allison, who's 13, and he shoots her in the face and then is young and she's killed instantly. And then he turns on his sister dawn, who's 18, and shoots her in the head, blowing off the left side of her face. So Fucking brutal. With a shotgun. So just after 3am In a span of less than 15 minutes, Ronald Butch DeFeo Jr. Had brutally slain every member of his family. They were all found lying on their stomachs in bed. Butch showers, trims his beard, gets dressed in jeans and work boots, and then he collects his bloody clothing and the rifle, wraps him up in a pillowcase. And on his way to work, he disposes of the pillowcase and everything in it by tossing them into a storm drain. I spelled that wrong. Tossing them into a storm drain.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that's where the clown from it was waiting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's the scariest thing I've ever heard in my life. Why did you say that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, that's what I think of when I think of storm drains.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally that. Or that. Or JFK being killed because they arrested someone in a storm drain right after it happened.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. You know what?

[Karen Kilgariff]

What?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Maybe I'll do it one day. Shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'd never heard that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Every time I walk, George, my dog, she. If we walk, there's a storm drain that we always walk by and she always has to go and stick her head down in it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And every time I'm like, if that clown from it is in there, I am going to lose it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's gonna get her head chomped off

[Karen Kilgariff]

by what a clown. She loves it in there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So many smells.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know. So many raccoons.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, okay. Then tosses it in a storm drain. Then goes to work at the car dealership at 6am oh, all by himself. Yeah. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Goes to work at the family car dealership.

[Georgia Hardstark]

At the family car dealership. And I think they were like, what are you doing here at 6am which is weird.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Anyway, he's like, you know me, Butch, how much I love working, getting along with people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I want to get an early start.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Come on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I got my boots on, my jeans, my beard is trimmed. So throughout the morning, he gave me saying, like, I don't know why my dad's not here yet. So he keeps calling home. He leaves work around noon, and he spends the day with his friends. And to secure an alibi, he tells them that he couldn't seem to reach anyone at home to let them know that he's trying. And hey, look, no one's answering. He ends up at a bar real close in Amityville, real close to his house. And then is like, hey, guys, I'm gonna go check on my family. It's so weird that I haven't heard from them. And then at 6:30 that night, he bursts back into the bar and yells, you gotta help me. I think my mother and father are shot. So Butch and a small group of people from the bar went to the home and they found the whole family dead in their beds. When the detectives questioned Butch about who could be a suspect in the murders, he told them that he believed that a mafia hitman named Louis Fellini may have been responsible and that his whole family was like in with the mob and that they had wronged the Fellini family and some. And they were pissed off at him. So he then gives them the alibi of, I've been gone all day and when I left the house this morning, my whole family was, I think they were still alive. So they, the police take him into protective custody while they search for the suspect. But when they searched the house, they found an empty box for a recently purchased.35 caliber Marlin gun. It's for you gun people in Butch's room. And when the timeline came together, it placed Butch at home at the time of the homicides, not after he left. So when they question him, he begins to change his story. He says that Fellini had appeared at the house early that morning, put a revolver to his head and dragged him from room to room as they murdered his family. Him and an accomplice murdered his family, making Butch watch. Then eventually, under questioning, he broke down and confessed to killing his family, saying, once I started, I just couldn't stop. It went so fast. On trial, his defense lawyer, William Weber, tried to prove that he was insane, saying that he heard demonic voices that told him to kill his family. But the psychiatrist for the prosecution proved that he suffered from antisocial personality disorder. Which doesn't mean you're crazy. The illness made him aware of his actions, but motivated by a self centered attitude. And even at one point during the trial, he threatened to kill both his own lawyer and the judge. They put him on the stand and this dude is just like fucking crazy as shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. It seems like that's his solution to a lot of problems is I'll kill you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Which really, you know, as we're learning, is a non solution.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's this thing of like, like people pretending to be crazy to get the verdict of insane. And it's like, no, you're just proving what a piece of shit you are. And you're also understanding that you need to plot this out so it makes you look sane because you understand reasoning and plotting.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, there's not the insanity part, isn't there? But you are clearly either a sociopath or just the most rotten, spoiled child of all time. Like, is that where spoiling children can get you?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because that should be a psa. All those kids that are fucking screaming out loud in restaurants. It's like, get a hold of it now, or you're gonna go the route of the Mr. Butch DeFeo.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Amen. Or at least something close. And it's. Or you're just annoying everyone else around you. And, like, I'm trying to eat in peace.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, just no screaming. How about the rule of no screaming.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No screaming. And if your child is screaming, take them outside.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or how about you glare at your child? No one wants you to hit them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But how about a good icy. My father used to stop us in our tracks with the look on his face.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God, like, you've gone too far.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, also, he was very large and intimidating, so I'm sure he only had

[Georgia Hardstark]

to look at us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We'd be like, ugh. And you just, like, sit exactly where you are.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is not going well. Stop right now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love it. So on November 21, 1975, the jury finds Butch guilty on six counts of second degree murder. He sentenced to six consecutive life sentences. Sentences. But all these questions, and this is, like, one of the reasons why this murder is still big to this day and people still debate it when it's clear that he just this fucking crazy dude on acid and heroin who was a piece of shit narcissistic asshole, just killed his entire family. There are things that are weird, that make people question what really happened and think that it didn't happen that way. So one of them, which I totally understand and want to know the answers to, is how did he shoot six people in four different rooms without any of them waking up or trying to escape?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And they're all. They're all on their stomachs when they're shot, so no one turned over to be like, what the fuck was that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, they were drugged.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, that's what I thought, too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No drugs in any other systems, really. Period. Oh, yeah. And no neighbors heard the rifle blasts at all. And this is a fucking rifle. Yeah. The defense experts. Experts conducted an experiment on the Marlin rifle and found that it's rapport. Report or report? Report.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Report.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Report. It's spelled report, guys.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's just a report.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Its noise was so loud that it could be heard almost a mile away.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's a rifle. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So how did none of the neighbors hear it? And you can see photos. They weren't that far away. The neighbors, they Were, like, literally next door.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, he must have done. I mean, like, then. Did he put rum in something? I mean, like, he must have affected them in some way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right, but how do the neighbors not hear it either?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, oh, like, silencer?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, nothing. No, there's no silencer. There's no drugs in the system. Alcohol. I doubt it either.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, but, I mean, could there be a silencer that they didn't find?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, I'm putting it out there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm say, yes, I'm putting it out there, even though I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Rightful silencer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's probably Satan.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Could be Satan. Yeah, it is weird. Everybody's sleeping on their stomachs. Yeah, that's right. Why isn't one person sleeping on their side like a normal human being?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or did he. You know, there's this. The obvious answer to me is that he went from room to room and was like, stay down. There's someone in the house. And, like, warned them that, like, don't move. I'm gonna protect you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Maybe. But then why wouldn't the dad get up? And then why wouldn't the neighbors hear the shots?

[Georgia Hardstark]

He went and killed the dad and the mom, went into the kids room, was like, you guys stay in here. Something's. Something's happening.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ooh, that's fucked.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, stay on your. Why? Stay on your stomach.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Stay on your stomach. Because I'm weird.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know what else? He could have walked in the room and they were sitting up and he said, lay down on your stomach. And then shot them because he didn't want to see their faces when he killed them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

True. But he shot one of his sisters in the face.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Maybe he was particularly hateful of that sister.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Maybe. Maybe.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which is. It is a thing that they fought a lot, too. Don, the older sister, was 18.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, but then there's also the theory. Oh, sorry, are you doing more theories?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which one are you gonna do?

[Karen Kilgariff]

The theory that Don was his co conspirator and she shot people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's go to that one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's go to the tapes. So years. It wasn't until years later, though, that Ronnie changed his story again while he was in prison and said that his sister dawn was involved in the murders. Now, listen, Ronnie makes up so many stories that you just. They're all bullshit. They're all bullshit. But here they are. That she had actually planned the murders with him to kill their parents after they had a huge fight with them, but they had no plans to kill the siblings. And then. So she went to kill the parents. And when he found out, Ronnie found out that Don had also killed the kids. She was so pissed off. He was so pissed off she had wanted to eliminate them as witnesses that he wrested the gun from her and shot. Shot her in the head himself. So the only person he was guilty of killing was this murderer. His sister.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, that sounds like absolute bullshit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Abso fucking lutely. Okay. Yeah. I mean, it's just. It sucks that we can't get any information about what their home life was really like from anyone but Defeo and secondhand, you know, boyfriends and friends saying what it was like, but from all their accounts, it wasn't good. Yeah. So who knows? He. And then it was reported during the original police investigation that traces of gunpowder were found on Don's nightgown, indicating that she may have fired a weapon. But I guess it's also proven that if someone shoots you at close range, you can get that as well.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Then he claims that his sister dawn shot his father. Then says their mother, distraught over that, shot dawn and her three youngest kids. So that the mother, dawn, killed the dad, the mother killed dawn, dawn and the other three youngest children then shot herself. And then when Butch found out, he flies into a rage and fired one bullet at his wounded mother who had just shot himself. So the only person he shot was the. Like, it's just. Just.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But all that happens way later.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He said he makes these stories up later.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no, I get it. I'm saying, like, the reason that doesn't fly is because of the laying down on the stomachs thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like all. You can't have that kind of chaos and then everyone end up in the same position.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, it's just such a far fetched theory.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's stupid.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, to believe it is idiotic. Especially with only the testimony of a fucking crazy person who's trying to get himself away from any responsibility of what happened. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It almost sounds like somebody. He was sitting in jail, bored, and he's like, maybe they'll listen to me if I just make up a new story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally. Totally. So in 1975, let's get to the fucking haunting shit real quick. Also total bullshit. In 1975.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Now we're in a fight.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Karen, the Catholic.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is my favorite story. You can't say it's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's my favorite.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know. I want to believe it so much too, but the more I'm reading, the more I'm like, I know. And the movie, when I was a kid, Scared the shit out of me. I also looked up when that was made, and I was like, nope. Too young to have watched this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What, like 82? Something crazy like that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know, Stephen. Look it up. Because that would mean I was only two.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's the Jim Roland movie, right? Where he has the beard and he's, like, super nuts.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A gorgeous movie.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They keep going to that digital clock that it's like 3:12 or whatever time it was that it happened.

[Georgia Hardstark]

3:15 or something. Yeah. And he keeps waking up. All right, so it's based on the fact that George and Kathy Lutz, they buy. About a year after this, they buy the defeo house for 80 grand. They knew about the murders, but they were like, it's cool. We don't believe in shit. Steven. 79 then I wasn't born yet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

79.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So I watched it in the womb. I think I watched it on, like, a Friday night. Yeah. Movie classics or whatever.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, it's a. Because I remember watching it in my aunt's living room, and I wouldn't have watched it when I was nine. Yeah. And it was on tv.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We must have been home alone, turned it on, and then I wanted to kill myself.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was like a creature features thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just like. What's this?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. It terrified me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Remember the flies on the window?

[Georgia Hardstark]

The flies in the window. Wasn't there a scene where, like, all the. They were standing outside of the house when they had left it and all the lights were flicking on and off and all this crazy shit was going on? And so, yes, that scared me more than anything I ever had until I watched it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, it's not that big of a deal. I was a scaredy cat as a kid.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's a very big deal.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you. All right. Okay. So they buy the house. They're like, no big deal. We got a good deal on it. So George and Kathy. And Kathy's three kids from a different marriage moved in. That doesn't matter. Then weird shit starts happening.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What? It doesn't matter. I mean, I didn't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It doesn't. I don't need to specify that she had three kids from a different marriage. You know, it was just like, it's fine. Okay? Like, I don't want to shame her. Like, she's a. Oh, she's a divorce with three kids. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know why I did that. Like, I'm not judging her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It seems like information you're trying to convey.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't need to. It's unnecessary.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it seems so they were born out of wedlock.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, they were born. Listen, let me tell you about her life, okay?

[Karen Kilgariff]

She was a tramp.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, so they have a priest come to bless the house. He said he felt an unseen hand slap him in one of the rooms and heard a voice saying, get out, get out, get out. They said that they had crazy things happen. Like windows and doors would lock inexplicably and then open and close. A devilish creature was seen outside the window at night. George was seemingly, quote, possessed by an evil spirit. And green slime oozed from the walls and ceiling. The family there was apparitions of hooded figures, clouds of flies. I think I already said that. Cold chills, personality changes, sickly odors. Objects moving about on their own. And then the youngest, let's child, a little girl, became friends with a devilish pig. Evil demonic pig. Imaginary friend called Jody.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep, Jody the pig.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Jody the pig. Good old Jody the pig. And then Kathy reports that she was often beaten and scratched by unseen hands. And that one night she was levitated off of her bed. Shit. And then George says his wife was physically transformed into an old woman with the face and hair and wrinkles of a 90 year old woman. Which I'm like, that's insulting. Keep that to yourself. You know what I mean? Like when Vince is like, you have too much makeup, it's like, shut up. You know what I mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

But it was demonic forces. It wasn't just like, I fear you, I fear your old age in the future,

[Georgia Hardstark]

okay? And then he'd wake up at 3:15 every morning when the murders happen. So just 28 days after they moved in, they fled the house. They left all their clothes in the closets and food in the refrigerator. By the way, when they bought the house, it had all of the Defeo's furniture still in it, except for the mattresses where the kids were fucking murdered on the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No way.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So what the fuck is wrong with you people, like redecorate, man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like the real estate agents. Like, you can buy this as is. Yes, and it's a bargain.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know that murder house in Los Feliz that's been fucking closed up forever. Yeah, like, can you imagine buying it? Be like, well, this is great vintage furniture. Just leave it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, no, well, you'd have to really sage that thing. Yeah, you'd have to really clap those corners.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You'd have to light some sage and then light the house on fire with it and burn it to the fucking ground.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Go ahead and take that Insurance check.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And buy yourself some mid century modern furniture.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Then figure your shit out. Yeah. And stop buy a McMansion. Okay. So they end up publishing the account of the hauntings in a book that was written by. That they worked on with Jay Anson called the Amityville Horror True Story, which we all know and love. Published as Nonfiction in 1976. Sold more than 6 million copies. Film version comes out, huge box office success. The Lutzes become famous. They later admit it was a hoax.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. When concocted with the help of Butch's defense lawyer, William Weber. Remember him? Who was like, no, he's crazy. He heard demonic voices. So they said it wasn't ghosts. They had all these fucking psychics and mediums come in, and it was like, there's no ghost here. It's demonic possession, which I believe in ghosts, sure, fine. Let's have it. But demonic possession is fucking stupid.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Famous last words. So William Webber's angle was Georgia just

[Karen Kilgariff]

turned her head all the way around,

[Georgia Hardstark]

and then I vomited. Your face. William Weber, remember was trying to say that is you basically using this account, who, by the way, they said that they came up with after a few bottles of wine. Oh, my God. I forgot that part with the Lutzes. That to like, to prove that the house was possessed and so was Butch

[Karen Kilgariff]

and he was not responsible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Basically, yeah. That's why the family was killed. So Ronnie's still in prison. All of his appeals and requests to the parole board to date have been denied. And that's the Amityville Horror and the murder of the Defeo family's family.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The question of how he got those. That family killed in that manner is so vexing and so fascinating in which

[Georgia Hardstark]

way that they're on their stomachs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just that, like, yeah, how do you take a rifle and shoot six people or five people and have people not here and have the people not wake up and have. You know what I mean?

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's the weirdest part.

[Karen Kilgariff]

By the fifth person in the family, they've heard now four gunshots.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And they know that their older brother's fucking crazy. Like, that's the other thing, too. Especially don, who is 18 and grew up with him at time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, they know their brother is crazy, and the whole town was like. As soon as they found out what happened was like, well, Butch did it. Like, everyone fucking knew he was crazy. Yeah, so.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But in the Amityville Horror book, they talk about this red room that's in the basement and how it's filled with evil and all this stuff. And I was so fascinated by this. It's almost like they centralized where the evil was coming from. And, like, people tried to go in there, and they would get crazy headaches and all this weird shit would happen. I was so fascinated by that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It doesn't exist.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm sorry. It exists, Karen. In your mind, Karen. It's exists in your heart and soul.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's fine. I feel like at the heart of every story like that is people want to go like, oh, my God, the devil has been here, and there's flies on this sewing room window. But at the end of the day, the truth of it is a spoiled asshole drug addict killed his family, which is the thing people can't face because it's not a monster.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's a real person. How could someone kill children?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Who had nothing to do totally in any of this. It's like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So you'd rather be like, the devil did it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Exactly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. It's easier.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Honey, I'm sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, what a story. I love it. I can't believe I didn't do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know. I can't believe I did. It didn't even cross my mind that that was the story. I don't know why I was thinking of the Omen as that story.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah, because he's the. He's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This for you, though, like, the book you checked out, I totally forgot.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah, girl. But, I mean, it makes it even

[Georgia Hardstark]

worse that you could check that book out. It was so scary.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was horrifying.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was very detailed. And, I mean, the nun that was mad at me was the scariest part of all Right. Okay, we are back. Georgia, are there any updates for this case?

[Georgia Hardstark]

There are. It's so crazy because literally this past weekend, I've been sick. And so we've been watching, you know, old TV shows, and we watched In Search of the Amityville horror episode.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How was it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's great. It's like. I think it's so recent to when the, quote, hauntings happen that he's in the house. Like, Leonard Nimoy is in the house showing you around. It's crazy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I have to look that up. I bet that whole series is so good to rewatch.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. It's excellent. It's, like, comforting, you know, like the Twilight Zone is kind of. Yeah. But anyways. Yes, there are updates. In 2021, Butch died in prison. He was 69. He died of natural causes, as far as we can tell, but no official cause of death has ever been made public. And in 2019, yet another film inspired by these murders, the Amityville Murder, was released. I've never watched any of the actual movies about like based on this, have you?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, I watched that one from 2019 in the theater. Oh, and enjoyed it. But it's all the rehash of the James Brolin original Amityville Horror.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh right. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So I don't know if it was a movie theater movie or if it was a TV movie.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think it was TV because there's no way my parents would have taken me to that. But I definitely fucking saw it and couldn't sleep because of it. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. So disturbing. And so all those things where people are like waking up at 12:12 and like freaking out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Okay, let's stop it. Let's get into Karen's story about Neville Heath.

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

I did my usual thing where I was watching on Tuesday. I was watching true crime shows all day, and then I'm like, well, I didn't do anything today, so I better pick one of these, an episode of one of these things and do my murder from one of these shows that I just watched.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And actually, a ton of people told me this, and I knew it, but I didn't realize they were saying. So there's a show called Murder Maps on Netflix, and it's basically all these murders that have taken place in London, or I think England generally, but mostly London. And most of them are really old. And it's such a good show. And the guy that's the narrator, host, I think his name is Nicholas Day, is so dramatic and awesome, and it's just crazy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And so there was. I'd already watched the first two seasons, so every time people would be like, you've got to watch Murder Maps. I'd be like, girl, I've been there and back. Well, there was a season three, and I didn't know. I think that's what people were trying to tell me. Yeah, I'm going to try to be a better listener. So that's what I was watching. And so this is the story of Neville Heath, the lady killer. So I'm going to take you. Oh, also, I just want to say. So it's this episode of Murder Maps. There's a guy that's one of the talking heads, and his name's Neil Root, and he wrote a book called Frenzy Colon, Heath High and Christie. And it's basically about the three British serial killers that were caught after World War II. Wow. And they're John Christie. I can't remember if I did him or not, but he's that guy. I don't think I did. He's really fucked up. I can't remember what the other guy is. And then the third guy's my guy for this. And it's just fascinating because there was maybe the High guy is. There was somebody that. During World War II, during, like the Blitz, when London was getting the fuck bombed out of here.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I read about him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He was killing people, like in an

[Georgia Hardstark]

alley or something like that. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They would find bodies and they would assume, oh, this must be another thing from the bombing. What a dick.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Victim.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The victim. Thank you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Trophy. It's been a long day.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's been a long day. Okay, so anyway, these were all really good stories, but this guy was especially interesting. So I'll give you a little history as they do in Murder Maps to kind of set the scene.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, please.

[Karen Kilgariff]

May 8, 1946. It's victory in Europe day is what they called it. So Finally, World War II is over in England, and London specifically have just gotten the shit beaten out of it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's pretty amazing how badly London was bombed and made it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If you go look at. There's a lot of those photos of before and after. Yeah. And it's insane.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's insane. And what I really loved and what this show is really good at doing is they started talking about how, like, how it affected the culture. Cause so for long, like, you know, over six years, basically all of the men left went off to fight war. All of the women took over their jobs. I never knew this, but in that time of all the, like, when women had, like, hard labor jobs, and they were talking about it in the setup of this. And women, what's. The women built the Waterloo Bridge in London.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And when the guy. When the narrator says that in the show, it cuts to this live black and white footage of all these women sitting in basically what looks like men's work gear, smoking cigarettes and like, sitting on the bridge.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

As like taking a lunch break from building it, dude. And that's what happened. You know, as everybody knows, like, all the men were gone. So women became truck drivers. Women worked in factories, made bombs, did all the. Went into the army themselves. Like, it's kind of amazing. So then when the war ended and all these soldiers came back, they thought they were just gonna take their jobs again and, like, everything would be normal. But this culture shift had changed. That was so radical. Where women were like, well, fuck you. We had to do it out of necessity. And now we're like, we can do it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And also, why didn't you tell us pants were so comfortable?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. How dare you keep pants from us for this long. Only the horse ladies got pants. That's bullshit. So I think that's kind. That part is very exciting where it was like a woman's movement purely by necessity, where they were. It's the we can do it thing where it's like, not only can you do it, you're fully going to do it, and then you're going to want to keep doing it even though men are back and they're like, now I work at the factory. And they're like, get the fuck out of here, buddy. They didn't do that. But it was a hard, you know, know, of course, soldiers had a hard time re acclimating in all ways. But then especially culturally, because this was a world that they didn't live in before they left, where women were just like, yeah, I'll take care of it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And they're traumatized.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, they'd seen horrible things and everyone was desensitized now that they had all lived through. Those who lived through this horrible time in life, they said that because, you know, like, true crime and crime has always been huge, especially in England and in. I don't know if it's Georgian England in like early 1800s England, it was really popular. But after World War II, people in, you know, people who had watched their neighbors be blown up by bombs or lost their brothers and husbands and, you know, boyfriends in the war, they'd all become incredibly desensitized. So they weren't. People didn't shy away or like death and murder were not taboo anymore. They were very interested in it because now it was like, it's not happening to me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That makes sense.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So they're finally like, oh, I can read a story where it's not me with the bullet coming at me. It's like, this happens to me and

[Georgia Hardstark]

it's not in the fucking battlefield and all this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly. It's like a huge. Almost a bigger relief.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

So that's kind of like the world they live in. One of the people. Oh, and also this is just an interesting aside. And they had video of these guys, the true crime reporters of the time from all those major newspapers in London. They themselves became famous because the stories they reported were getting so popular. They called them the Murder Gang. And they were like, reporter. The crime. Crime reporter from the sun, the crime reporter from the, you know, whatever all those newspapers are. It was kind of the beginning of British tabloid reporting. And the true. These true crime guys were like big time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The true crime gang. Gang.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The Murder Gang.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, that's what I meant.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, I could feel that. So they were kind of like local stars. One of the guys that came back at this time was a man named Neville Heath. Now, he was not like he. Although he was very good looking, he kind of looks like the actor Patrick Wilson. You know that guy, he's like blonde, kind of wavy hair. Hair, cleft chin. He was in Like Little Children. He was in. He was in all the Conjuring movies. He plays that. Yeah, he's great. He. This guy looks like that guy. He is a tall, beautiful blonde man who had gone off and was in. He had joined the RAF in 1937 when he was still a teenager. But he had. He came from like an nice middle class family. Always had problems with criminal behavior. Always petty theft, doing little things here and there. When the war effort started, he was like, I want to be a pilot. And so he joined the raf, but then he stole funds from the mess hall and he ended up going AWOL because he didn't want to face it. And he kind of slowly developed into a con man because he could talk his way out of anything. He got people, like, people kind of fell love with him all the time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Blonde people with fucking chin clefts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A blonde with a chin cleft. And like, I bet you he had a very deep, soothing voice. Like he was one of those people that just like never didn't have a good thing to say.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Watch out for those guys that watch it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He also. So he was. He was doing all kinds of like, he. He was eventually caught from going AWOL by trying to apply for crime credit by fraud. So he was using all these aliases.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sounds like James Bond kind of.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, like a bad guy. James Bond.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like one of a James Bond villain.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In the making, but good looking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Were there any. Were there any James Bond villains that were good looking? Male.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't fucking know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's a different podcast. It's called James Bonding demographic. Yeah, he called himself Major Rupert. He called himself Lord Dudley.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Of course he did.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Gay. So he was trying to apply for credit in. Under these false names. Got caught. That's how he got arrested. He went to a boar stall, which is. I don't. It's a jail. But I don't know why that's different than a normal jail.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I just feed you shittier food.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Probably think so. That's what it is. It sounds like they send you to Russia.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It sounds like there's like hay on the ground in your cell.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that's a horse stall. You're thinking, wait, why don't I click this live link and tell you that a boar stall is a type of youth detention center. So he was so young, he was going to a youth detention center.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We knew that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I knew that. Don't act like I didn't know that, Georgia.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We were testing you guys, you listeners.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But here's the problem. He flourished in jail. He.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He, man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's a psychopath test.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He. He's a full on psychopath.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Did you flourish in jail?

[Karen Kilgariff]

He flourished in jail. The governor of the jail, they're called the governor but he's basically like the warden of the boys jail. Kept giving him leadership duties and eventually supported his application for the air Force in 1939.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He sounds like he could have been a really successful person if he had just not been a dick.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If he hadn't been a cheater. Cheater Pumpkin eater. Happy Halloween everybody.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We are on theme this is IT

[Karen Kilgariff]

themed episode we are not Evergreen we are of the moment. He tried to reenlist in the Air Force. When the governor supported his application, the Air Force was like, no thanks, criminal. You tried this already, pal. And you get that one shot. He joined the Royal Service Corps and he was stationed in the Middle east. And over there he did all his same business. He had keep doing it. The second he got there, he pretended to be amazing. Oh no, I'm sorry. When he in the Middle east, he got court martialed. He basically stole. Got court martialed, was sent home in disgrace. And on the boat ride home, he jumped off the boat. Like the boat docked in South Africa. He got off and bailed and escaped essentially. And then started calling himself Captain Selway in South Africa. And Captain Fun so far. I mean, yeah, he had a good time with it. He had a limp and a monocle as Captain Selway. And our guy Neil Root was like, he was just an actor. Like he was. He got super into these roles and he became the people dude.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's an adventurer until he kills people.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Until. Yeah, so let's see. I lost my spot.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Be boop. That's when you say it really helps.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I can't steal your bit. Do that. Computer wise gets me down to my.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It helps. It really helps.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Um, thanks, Steven. He joins the South African Air Force under the name Lieutenant Colonel James Armstrong.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Which is kind of amazing. It's so long ago that you could join like a government agency and they'd be like, we haven't caught up to you yet. We don't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Or you could be like, here's my title. And they're like, okay, great. There's no way to check this. Goodbye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, but it's like, what was it written on a fucking napkin? Like it doesn't make sense. And he's just like, no, this is who I am and everybody trusts me. But. But it's like he's smootalker.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All you have to be is confident and people fucking believe you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If you're beautiful, the world is your oyster.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wouldn't that be nice? I mean,

[Karen Kilgariff]

let's keep it positive. So. So he flew missions as Lieutenant Colonel James Armstrong. But then finally they found out that he was this criminal guy and he

[Georgia Hardstark]

couldn't fly a plane. Maybe he was like, he was like,

[Karen Kilgariff]

like into, I get, you know, at the time it was like World War II and it was like the Air Force pilots were the, they were, they were the hotties. So he just wanted a slice of that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Amen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He got deported back to England. He arrived in January of 1946. He tried to go to the London School of Navigation because his ideas, oh, I'll be a commercial pilot. And he actually went, studied there, worked really hard, tried, and then near the end, they found out about all of his court martials and all his bullets from the army and basically being a criminal. And they told him, you will never be a commercial pilot. And he, they kicked him out. So his family thinks, like he's telling the story of like, oh, I was a pilot in the army and now I'm going to be a commercial pilot and everybody don't worry about it. So now he can't tell them that he. None of that's going to work out because he can't keep his hands out of the till. So he lies to them. And then I think that's part of like the pressure starts mounting and what he ends up doing is drinking and going to dance halls all the time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sounds like a blast, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

And he, and he's of course a huge womanizer because he's be. He's beautiful or good looking. Let's say he's. He's. No Paul Onions.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can I just say really quickly, Vince told me a story the other day when we were on the plane on the way home from Australia and he saw that like, Riz Ahmed, there was like a TV show with Riz Ahmed Ahmed on the plane. And he walked by and said, riz Ahmed's on tv. And you heard him say, riz Ahmed's in seat one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Lost your shit. Why did you guys tell me about that the minute we got off the plane?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I had no memory of that until you just said it right now. Because he was walking by and just said it in that Vince way, like fast and kind of like Ahmed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And. But the excitement. He said it like the look on his face was like, Riz Ahmed's he. And then I was like in my pod, all half asleep and weird and I just like

[Georgia Hardstark]

it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It doesn't matter. It's not. I mean, I'm sure there are some people that would go and squat by their seat.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You would have sat on his lap

[Karen Kilgariff]

the rest of the way home, I not only would not have sat on his lap, I would have had a mean look on my face in case he saw me and been looking at the ground the entire time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you know what kind of shitty friend I am? But like that. The best kind of friend is. I would have been like, let's walk by him. And then I would push you into him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know, so it looks like you bumped into him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're the perfect wingman.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I am such the wingman.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because you're gonna work against all of my serious problems. Which is. The best way to flirt is to act like you're angry and walk away. Which has not panned out like a human.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And speak to the person. No. So moving on. So reset. Ahmed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Riz Ahmed is back in England. No. So Neville Heath is. He's under pressure. He's a failed pilot. He's acting and can hold himself to be this person, but he actually doesn't have any of the cred. So he's meeting a bunch of women. He takes a room at the Pembridge Court Hotel in Notting Hill Gate, which is the street, the main street in Notting Hill. That one I did look up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Notting Hill, the film that makes me crazy because. Why does he like her? Why?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Why? Why anything?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's true, too. Okay, so he actually checks into this hotel using his real name. He just added the fake title, Lieutenant Colonel, but his real name is on the books.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Does those even go together? I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I certainly don't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can you be a Lieutenant Anna Colonel?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, I would believe him because he did. One of the things he got in trouble for when he was in the army was misusing uniforms and medals, which is like that stolen valor thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Get your story straight.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, he's just like. It's like, go be an actor in

[Georgia Hardstark]

the theater, you fool.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's what you want to do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. All the ladies. You can imagine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All the single ladies.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All the single ladies.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. So when he is. He has taken his hotel room. He's out at a bar one night, and he meets a woman named Yvonne Smith. He takes her out to dinner. He starts to romance her, and he's trying to get her to come back to the hotel room with him, and she won't go. And so he proposes to her. And so she's like, okay, I will.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So she goes, yvonne, she buys it. I mean, he sells it in a way that she can buy it. She goes and fucks him. And the next day she goes back Home to Bainbridge. Bainesbridge. Where she lives, I think, either with her parents or her parents also live.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Live there too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And now she thinks, oh, I'm. I'm engaged. And. And like, I'm. That's my fiancee.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is an episode of Downton Abbey.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, it really is in the sad. A sad, dark. Downton Abbey would not be a bad idea.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, what's it called?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Downerton Abbey.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I was gonna say something else and that's better. Downerton Abbey.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you so much.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's just Goth. Everyone's Goth. Takes place in the Middle East. Bless you. Bless you. Don't you dare edit that out, Stephen. Don't fucking take a note. Leave it. Listen, we are real people.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We have thoughts and feelings and sneezes. Okay, okay, go.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She goes back to Bainesbridge. Four nights later, Neville meets a woman named Marjorie Gardner. Now, she's an artist. She's 32 years old. She was married to a terrible alcoholic who she separated from. She's from a middle class family, but she has led a. What they call a bohemian lifestyle. Good for her. Yes, exactly. Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She wears pants.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly. She grew her hair long and put a scarf in it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She also, as they quote say in Murder Maps, they were like. She enjoyed the freedoms, the new freedoms offered to women by the war. So basically, pants, sex.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Pants and sex.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Pants, sex and cigarettes. And if you want build a bridge. Love can build a bridge. So she meets Neville at a bar, same deal. He takes her out to dinner. Then they go to the Panama Club, which is some private club he belongs to, or so he says. They leave the Panama Club at 12:20 and they go back to room four at the Pembridge Court Hotel the following day. The assistant manager enters the room because the maid can't get in. And so he comes up, opens, and Marjorie Gardner's body is naked on the bed, covered to the neck with sheets. Her ankles are still bound. There's marks on her wrist to show that they were bound but that the restraints had been cut. She had been gagged. There were 17 lacerations on her body caused by a whip.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She'd been punched in the face at least twice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nipples savagely bit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, no, no, no, no, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know that's a bad one. And also to me, the worst one, where she had been raped and then an instrument had been inserted inside her vagina. So I think they said it was like a bottle opener. It's horrible looking. Basically a incredibly brutal and savage attack on this woman.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is there a crime scene photo of it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You said how it looked. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not that I saw.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But there was a very upsetting reenactment because the woman looks a lot like the picture. They show the picture of Marjorie. And then this actress they got to play her looks almost exactly like her. So it's very real.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's so crazy that supposedly that was his first murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Supposedly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cause that's not true. It's not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It can't be.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, we all know that that's not your first murder if it's that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. There's a gap of time where he goes from. I'm an embez. I basically. No rules apply to me. That early kind of psychopath shit of I want to get whatever I want no matter what, and I don't care. But then it goes from there. And then there's all that time where who knows what he did in South Africa.

[Georgia Hardstark]

South Africa. He's in the Middle east. You know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's. He's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's breaking. He's clearly. He got, you know. What? You know, discharged from the army for reasons that they're saying that there are these crimes, but who knows what the fuck.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right? They could be like, wait, we don't want to advertise. What else?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or they just don't know. They just caught him for one thing. But he could be guilty of anything.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Man. That's brutal.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So the thing is. And ultimately they find she was suffocated with a pillow. That's how she actually died. Neville Heath is nowhere to be found. Obviously, since he signed in under his own name note. Though now he's on the run.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mm. Which means he didn't. It wasn't premeditated.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know what I mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's a very good point.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Why would you? Especially since he's so tricky and uses so many aliases everywhere in his life and goes so far as to pretend to have a limp and wear a monocle that. Why would he then here fuck up?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Something pissed him off and he snapped.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He snapped? He snapped. Maybe. Who knows? What he does do is takes the train to Bainbridge and goes to meet his brand new fiance, Yvonne's parents.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yvonne.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So Yvonne, he's like, guess what? I'm coming to visit. Like, everything I said was real. I wasn't just super drunk. He goes to the parents golf club and has dinner with the family. Then they leave and they go out to another club for drinks and he realizes he has to give her his explanation of what happened in that room. Cause she was in the room with him. And that he knows the story's gonna come out that Marjorie Gardner was murdered.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay?

[Karen Kilgariff]

So he tells Yvonne that he met a man who asked if he could borrow his. Neville's hotel room key so he could go fuck a lady. And Neville was like, sure, no problem, buddy. Take my key and I'll just go walk around the streets whistling with my hands in my pockets all night. And that. That basically that the murder was some other guy killing Marjorie and he was just the unlucky fella that gave his key to something.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What are the chances?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, the odds are insane. The next day, the newspapers are filled with his picture and pleas to turn himself in. And so the family sees it, all these people see it. He writes the police electronic, explaining to Marjorie, I mean, explaining that he'd lent Marjorie the room key. He went out for the night and then when he came back, he found her dead body. So he changes the story slightly to

[Georgia Hardstark]

the police, which we all know is Red Flag City.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Red Flag City. And also apparently he wrote these letters all the time. The Neil Rue guy talks about how Neville Heath would write letters all the time after he did stuff, kind of explaining what his deal was. And oftentimes sometimes it would lead people to go, that's okay, I understand now, and let him off the hook. That's how he got out of things.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And one of the theories is he had been doing these things for so long and getting away with it that he kind of thought he was untouchable. And he didn't ever believe. He just didn't. He thought everyone would always believe him because they always did.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because people want to believe pretty people. They do believe pretty people over. Not pretty people.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Absolutely.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You get away with shit and people fucking get charmed by you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's charm. It's that thing of when a certain type of person looks at you and presents a thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like there are people who just know the power of their own face or their own voice or their own.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, they don't know. That's just what they're used to in life. Right. They think everyone gets treated like that and everyone can do this thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. It's quite a combination of like when you have a psychopath that's good looking, like, you know, all doors are open.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fucked ya.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fuck.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hello the Devil. So it's my new musical. So, okay, he, in this letter to the police, tells them he found the whip that she was injured with and he was gonna bring it with him when he came to talk to them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then just. And that's it. So they're like, okay. But they. He's now operating under false names again. Again. So he's still. He isn't going back to the police. He's. So he checks in. On June 23, he checks into the Tollard Royal Hotel in Bournemouth under the name, the fake name, Group Captain Rert Brook.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it always. He always has to have two military names before the fake name. Okay, so and this is like about two. The murders happened. He's on the loose for two weeks essentially. And he's walking around Bournemouth and he meets a woman named Doreen Marshall. She and her friend are also walking around. It's. I think Bournemouth from what I remember, but this could be wrong, but I think it's a seaside town from what I remember from Murder Map.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's fucking go with it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Steven's gonna tell me whether or not I think I'm right though. But I think it's like, it's like he got out of town. Basically went to the vacation spot. I'm right. Okay. Thank God. Because I can't have British people angry at me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I can't because they're just stern. They won't yell at you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, they'll just be disappointed and friendly, which I can't take. I need Irish yelling or nothing. Okay. So he goes to Bournemouth to get out of town. He. He's walking around, but he is a voracious. He's. They, they call him. Eventually they end up calling him the lady killer because he's just this womanizer that then of course is literally a lady killer. He meets this girl, Doreen Marshall, and he won't leave her alone. He's like on her all day long. And at first she's into it, of course, because it's the good looking army captain or whatever. The he. Group captain.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then she senses he's a creep.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Gut feeling tingling.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. And also because he can't. I think people like that, they can only keep that certain level of charm going for so long. So once he's. It's like if you're, especially if you're not going with them the direction he's trying to take you. Then he started getting real pushy and real insistent. And in the hotel room, I mean in the hotel lobby, he was getting really pushy with Doreen and the night manager of the hotel actually saw it happen and saw her going into a panic about it. And that night manager was the last person to see her alive.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So he saw some kind of weird exchange between the two of them, noticed it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Noticed how Weird enough to notice. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How unhappy she was and made a note of it. So the next day, the manager of the Tollard receives a call from the Norfolk Hotel, which is where Doreen was staying, like, on a different side of town. And they called because she was last seen at that hotel getting into a cab to come to their hotel. And she never arrived and never came.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Came back.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I guess the friend was like. That's what I'm assuming the friend was like, you have, like, we have to figure out where my friend went. And the staff at the Tallinn were becoming very suspicious of Group Captain Rert Brooke because of all these things they were seeing him, you know, these vibes they were getting from him and the behavior. So finally, the police, meanwhile, putting all these things together, put together that Neville Heath and Rupert Burkhardt, the same person. And so. He had. He said he was from some air force base in

[Georgia Hardstark]

a place. It's a city in London.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no, no. It's like Leicester, but I think. I think it's Leyster.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When have you ever cared?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know, but suddenly I'm holding my hair about it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know you are really troubled. It's because it's probably Leicester.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Leicester.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Leicester.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. That's probably what. It's probably what it is.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, they're so mad. I can hear the tea spilling across this ocean. The police. It's the thing I said of coming back into. The police realized Neville Heath and Rupert Brooks are the same person. And Rupert Brooks. Sorry. And so they also find in his room a train ticket for Durian Marshall. The whip with hair on it that was then traced to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What's up with a whip?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Marjorie Gardner. I know. That's fucked.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's like a really specific, weird thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But you had to have it on you. You know what I mean? So, like, you didn't just grab something and hit the person with it. You, like, had your whip.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Whip, yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know, and, like, this is what you were into.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. Which also then goes like, did he snap or was this a build?

[Georgia Hardstark]

What? Did he. Yeah. Or the thing of, like, he brought it out and she wasn't into it, and so he attacked her. It's like. No, he. He got off on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, she's. And Marjorie was tied up. So, like, was it fun times? Tied up and, oh, look, I have a whip. Or was it like. And then it all goes bad.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sure. Okay, honey.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So a waitress walking her dog sees a strange swarm of flies down near the beach. So then later on, when she sees the story of Marjorie Gardner's death in the paper, she grabs her dad and goes back down to that part of the beach to check out what the swarm of flies. And there Doreen Marshall's body is found, nude, arms tied behind her back, stabbed to death.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That chick was a vintage murderino.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She was the Ridge.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A ridge murderino.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because she had to make that connection where she was like, I'm sure there was a weird smell too, if there was a swarm of flies. But she was like, yeah, but she'd

[Georgia Hardstark]

still be like, it's a bird or whatever the fuck.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. But she was like, let's, dad, let's make sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And he's like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And she's smart enough to not go, I'm gonna go make sure by myself.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's like, hey, dad. Father power. Okay, so what Neville Heath had done when he was out of his hotel room, he went back by climbing up the outside of the hotel, up what they say call a builder's ladder on the side of the hotel. And he basically snuck into his own hotel room, probably because he was covered in blood and had shit all over him and knife and all that stuff. Cause he had murdered Doreen. But he then the next morning, told the story in the lobby with other hotel residents as if it was, I pulled this prank on the doorman. So he tried to make it. He was basically trying to establish this motive of I was doing this fun, funny, crazy thing with the doorman. That's what I was doing last night. And that's what you're gonna remember do. So when the police question him, he claims that he blacked out. He has no memory of what happened during that night. He says that he came to on the beach looking at his bloody hands, that he washed his hands in the sea and then walked back to the hotel. But what it turned out happened was he took her down to the beach, attacked her, murdered her there. And before he murdered her, he took off all his clothes so that when he was. Because he knew he would be covered in blood. So when he was done stabbing her to death, he went in, washed himself in the sea, and then came back out and put his clothes on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's how you know he knew what he was doing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly. Right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not a snap.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In this situation. Anyway.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Planned. Pre.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Pre. Planned when you're. You're like, I want to murder somebody, but I don't want my clothes to get dirty. Yeah, fuck you, dude.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, okay. Absolutely Fuck you, dude.

[Karen Kilgariff]

On September. Oh. Then he disposed of the knife. The ultimate proof that you're not insane.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

September 24, 1946. The murder trial begins. His lawyers tried to claim insanity. And they did it by revealing his previous crimes and then saying, this is a progressive mania that then built to murder. And then the Neil Root guy explains that you have to know what you're doing is wrong to cover it up. And that's the proof that it's not. You can't do. If they can prove you tried to cover it up, then that proves you're not insane.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love that rule. Cause it applies to so few actual murders. Yes. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it's so clear. It's like, it makes so much sense. So he was found guilty, and he eventually was hanged for the murders.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Holy shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But up until the end. And this is kind of an amazing, like, final moment for that show that I loved. Apparently the thing they used to do before they hung you was they gave you a shot of whiskey.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Really?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like a glass, you know, it's like

[Georgia Hardstark]

they're gonna give you dental surgery or they're gonna hang you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're right. So you kind of got like one quick thing before you went, and. And he said to the hangman, considering the circumstances, you might want to make it a double.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, to the end was this insane, phony lunatic.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because that's the coolest line I've ever heard.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, it isn't bad. I'll say.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That is clearly a charmer. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The Lady Killer, Neville Heath.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thanks. We don't do that. We only did that live. I forgot. Oh, my God. I think.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cause I really buttoned it and I felt like. You felt like you had to do something. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was like, wow, Shit tough.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You say the title at the beginning and the end, and then they're like, whoa. Oh, but I am going to tonight in my car, buy Neil Root's book Frenzy. Because this story and then those other three, like, the way all that information was coming out, we were like, this is why people. It's like when that explanation of people during World War II becoming desensitized to fear and horror and death. And then when the war's over, they still want to know the bad shit, because they've already known the bad shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Distraction. It's a distraction from your own woes. Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And they were saying, like, for the soldiers, it's a celebration that it's not them.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think that's what it is for us today. We know these things can happen. And all this horrible shit can happen and hearing about it makes it, legitimizes it and makes it true. And we're aware of it and we're not trying to fucking shelter ourselves from shit. Because, man, life's a bitch.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Life's a bitch.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And we're so lucky.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're so lucky. And there was. There's another book that I'm reading that's about murder in, like the early 1800s in England. That's when it, like, they would put it out on the broad sheets and it was really popular. There would be like a picture. Hear ye, Hear ye. Yeah. And they glue it up to a wall or whatever.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it's a. I'll get the title of the book for next time. But in that the author was saying that it was. It's like sitting inside a house when there's a rain, a thunderstorm outside, where you enjoy the raindrops on the window pane.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's exactly it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because you're inside in the warmth with protection.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's exactly it. Or like when you're in an earthquake and you know it's not gonna be that bad and you're just like, this is so fucking cool and fascinating. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cause you. Cause there's boundaries too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. That's fucking cool. Okay, we're back. Karen, any updates on this epic World War II story?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No updates for that story specifically, but we did get this email from a listener in 2017, and it's written, a very British person wrote this email. Please bear with me as I do this incorrectly. It just starts, family dinners. You never know what exciting little tidbits will be disclosed during Toad in the Hole. And then in parentheses, it says, we probably weren't actually eating that, but doesn't it sound so deliciously British of us? It does just jump right in. Yeah. It says, there I was listening to stories about my cousin's new boyfriend, Neville, when my aunt pipes up with, isn't it funny that his name is Neville? I say, why? Because of Neville Longbottom in Harry Potter. I mean, how many other Neville's do you know? And then she says, no, because of your granddad's cousin, Neville Heath, the serial killer. And then it says, wait, excuse me. Picture shock. Followed by thoughts that this might be the best dinner ever. And then it just says, ssdgm. Bayee. Taryn.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Taryn. I love, like, no info, no details, just letting us know that it's your. Like, that's what we want.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Taryn recaptured the moment where she heard the craziest Piece of news of like, you're potentially related to this horror show that you just heard about.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And this is the only place, this podcast, where you can say that and people will go, no way. And so.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I understand what you mean.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So. All right, let's head back in for good things of the week. One happy thing. Should we end on that? Oh, yeah, Botox. No, I'm kidding. Can you pause? No, don't pause. Don't edit that out. But that's not my thing. I mean, it really is just.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, I'll say one. Okay. We did the La Podfest last weekend. It was super fun. We did a Great show with KCRW where we got to be guest DJs.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So fun.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We did our own live show. I did the standup show. It was like a hangout at the Biltmore and we got got to meet all these listeners that came specifically to the podfest. And people drove in from far away, people from Arizona. Remember the guy last year that we met at LA podfest? His name was Joe. And he gave us those LA Corners office mugs.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes, yes, I still have mine.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, he came back again and gave us a travel mug and an apron, also from the coroner's office. And I went, sorry, remind me, do you work at the corner office? He goes, no, I just love that they have a gift shop. And there was just like, we met so many cool people and actually got to like hang for a second and talk to people. It was really nice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It felt very much like a. Like, we're all just chilling.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Situation.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was very fun and those. And I will say for that stand up show, which I don't love doing anymore just because I don't work on it and whatever, but that was fun because it's an audience of people who really love and care about comedy for the most part for that podcast anyway. So it was like they were with you the entire time. Like it was. It was so fun to do a set like that because everyone had the best sense of humor.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's almost like they weren't waiting for you to make them laugh. They were like, let's all enjoy this. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like how when we do ours, where you already have the benefit of the doubt.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So everyone's ready to just go where you want to go, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I love that. That's great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was. Yeah. So thank you. La Podfest. Dave Anthony, Graham Elwood, Chris Mancini. It was super fun.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, it definitely was. Give me one second. What do I like about this world? It Just can't also be, like, selfish.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like what?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know. Because yours was very sweet and giving, like being a little alone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I think that's really good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Of course.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You can leave this in. This part in. So Vince was gone last week. Missed him. Love him. It's so quiet and weird here without him, but, God, there's something about being alone and just, like, watching whatever you want to watch and lots of farting and drinking, you know, drink. Having a drink and talking to your cats and, like, singing stupid songs and I just. I really enjoy that a lot.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In a way that's, like. Doesn't mean I don't love Vince.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, of course not.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no, no. I think it's. It's almost like a resetting.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

When you can just get a little. I mean, I've gone. You have to be careful, though, because then after a while, like, I think I have thin skin about it where I need. Now I'm becoming that kind of person where, like, I need things to be a certain way because I'm so used to. Used to always only having things exactly how I want them, which isn't good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. But then when you meet someone you really like, you're like, oh, I like the way he does that stupid thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's true.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's like I had some greeting or some saying I saw a long time ago that said, when you don't like someone, the way they eat pisses you off. When you like someone, they could spill food on you and you'd be so thrilled about it. Like something like that where it just depends on the person.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that's very true. There is something very Zen about just, like, being in silence or just kind of doing what you want. And not always for so long. I really always had to have, like, three people around me at all times.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's just kind of knowing yourself, too, and knowing what you would be like alone and your schedule and, like, how you would fall asleep at night, which is apparently on a fucking naked bed with my fucking vintage comforter and no sheath sheets covering me. And, you know, it's kind of cool to check back in with yourself like that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I think that's really good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. And then when Vince came home, I was like, great, I gotta be a human again. And I actually have to shower.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, he's very strict about that stuff. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Being alone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Considerate.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Considerate for a hot second. And we're back.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, so we originally titled this episode Peak Experience, but if we were naming

[Georgia Hardstark]

it today based on the episode that just happened. Maybe we would call it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We could call it Swear to Almost, which was Georgia being almost positive that Danny Glover was the host of Cold Case Files. So instead of saying swear to God,

[Georgia Hardstark]

that means I was right, because I wasn't right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was right for you to backtrack.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's right. Okay. We could also call it giants for you because I love that you have

[Karen Kilgariff]

that interesting Karen giants for you, of course. Me and Sister Rita Rose, who my foundational memory of Amity. You feel horrors with that old, old nun who also taught my mother.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We've got insane, phony, lunatic love. Love that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then, of course, Downerton Abbey.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Downerton Abbey.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's the really dark, sad, goth Downton Abbey.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I still think that's a great idea.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's funny.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, well, let's have Elvis say goodbye back in the pod loft in 2017.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right, well, thanks for listening, stay

[Georgia Hardstark]

sexy and don't get murdered.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Bye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Bye, Elvis. Use your microphone, Elvis. Want a cookie? Cookie. That's a big yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You just blew doors on that one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Bye. Bye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

this is Bethenny Frankel from Just Be with Bethany Frankel.

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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