Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 91: Live at the Sony Centre in Toronto

Summary

My Favorite Murder: Rewind with Karen & Georgia – Episode 91: Live at the Sony Centre in Toronto (April 8, 2026)

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EPISODE OVERVIEW

Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark, hosts of “My Favorite Murder,” revisit Episode 91— their iconic 2017 Toronto live show—through commentary, updates, and signature humor. They recount wild travel stories, audience moments, and most importantly, two infamous Canadian true crime cases: the Ken and Barbie Killers (Paul Bernardo & Carla Homolka) and the conviction and exoneration saga of Steven Truscott. The episode closes with a chilling Ontario hometown murder, enthusiastically delivered by a local audience member.

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MAIN THEMES & PURPOSE

• Reflecting on a Live Show: Revisiting the 2017 Toronto episode with personal anecdotes and a behind-the-scenes feel.
• True Crime Deep Dives: Retelling the Bernardo/Homolka and Truscott cases with new research, updated developments, and classic comedic commentary.
• Audience & Community: Emphasis on Toronto’s supportive murderino community and the live dynamic, plus inclusion of an audience hometown story.
• Discussion on Justice, Trauma, and Cultural Impact: Grappling with how these crimes affected victims, families, and Canadian society.

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KEY SEGMENTS, INSIGHTS, AND TIMESTAMPS

1. Opening & Podcast Rewind Framing

[01:43–2:16]
Karen and Georgia introduce the “Rewind” concept: listening to and expanding upon classic episodes, now with hindsight and updates.

“It's Wednesday and that means it's time for us to recap our old episodes with all new commentary, updates and insights.” – Georgia [01:58]

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2. Live Show in Toronto: Banter & Joyful Chaos

[02:50–19:13]

• The Toronto audience’s enthusiastic energy.
• Mishaps from tour life (lost high heels, last-minute wardrobe choices).
• Hilarious panic when Georgia goes missing at a rural grocery store during a bathroom break.
• Flag-waving mayhem at the Detroit show and love for Canadian KitKats.

Notable Quotes:

“Oh my God. This is the biggest show we've ever done, you guys.” – Karen [03:24]
“If you've ever had an American Kit Kat, they're like having a small, flat, brown candle. They suck shit compared to what you people are doing up here with the Kit Kat. And I thank you.” – Karen [14:18]

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3. Commentary on Touring, Memories, and Toronto Love

[19:54–22:42]

• Reflections on how vivid, pre-pandemic live shows feel distant.
• Combining memories from repeat tours into a joyful “Toronto blur.”
• Discussion of Toronto’s exceptional audiences and fondness for live events.

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4. KEY STORY 1: The Ken and Barbie Killers—Paul Bernardo & Carla Homolka

[22:47–67:51]

Karen’s In-Depth Retelling:

• Context on previous problematic coverage and commitment to “make good” with research.
• Paul Bernardo’s upbringing, abusive household, progression from Scarborough Rapist to killer.
• Carla Homolka’s background, dysfunctional family, and her meeting Bernardo.
• Their partnership’s increasingly violent crimes: sexual assaults, rapes, and murders (including Carla’s sister, Tammy).
• The involvement of law enforcement, breakthroughs, bungled investigations, and the infamous videotape evidence.
• Homolka’s controversial plea deal securing her a lighter sentence (12 years) in exchange for testimony.
• Societal and victim trauma, courtroom secrecy, and final verdicts.

Notable Quotes & Moments:

“That was quite an awakening to realize that I just signed up for a podcast where I had to do a fucking book report every week.” – Karen [30:06]
“He was fixated on conquering women… obsessed with picking them up, having sex with them, and then making them do whatever he wanted.” – Karen [38:33]
“This is so far. So he tells Carla that she can't give him the one thing he really wants… her 15 year old sister, Tammy. And Carla agrees.” – Karen [49:09]
“Once the police have the tapes… they realize her story of Paul being fully responsible for everything is a total fucking lie.” – Karen [60:01]

Critical Analysis & Reflection:

• Discussion of police and forensic missteps, misogynistic attitudes (“curfew for women”), and the “deal with the devil” in Homolka’s plea bargain.
• Emotional reading from journalist Stacey May Fowles on the lasting trauma these events inflicted on Canadian society.

“Bernardo was not the monster we wanted to believe him to be, but rather one of us. A product of our culture…” – Karen (quoting Fowles) [67:35]

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5. UPDATE: Where Are They Now?

[70:38–72:20]
Georgia details recent updates:

• Paul Bernardo denied parole three times (2018, 2021, 2024); current age 60.
• Controversy over his 2023 transfer to a medium-security prison with surprising amenities.
• Carla Homolka, now “Leanne Teal” in Montreal, resumes life with a new family but is banned from school volunteering.

"Yeah, bro, I'm sorry. No fucking hockey. If you're a serial killer." – Georgia [71:43]

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6. KEY STORY 2: The Steven Truscott and Lynn Harper Case

[75:43–104:01]
Georgia recounts the 1959 Ontario murder of 12-year-old Lynn Harper and the wrongful conviction of 14-year-old Steven Truscott.

Case Highlights:

• Harper goes missing in small-town Clinton; last seen with Truscott, who gave her a ride.
• Her body is found; Truscott becomes immediate suspect based largely on faulty child witness testimony and bunk forensic science.
• Conviction for murder, sentenced to death (later commuted to life).
• Serious later documentary and TV investigation: exposes unreliable child testimony, flawed forensic timing, and multiple overlooked adult suspects.
• Appeals and activism lead to his 2007 exoneration and $6.5 million in compensation.

Notable Quotes & Moments:

“You can't figure that out. You mean that exactly.” – Karen [85:17], on the forensic claim of pinpointing time of death by stomach contents. “Did you know at the end of World War II, Hitler had a child army that was fighting people? …Did I dream that?” – Karen [87:18], in her classic derail-and-return style. “So, just execute the 14-year-old and get on with it.” – Karen, darkly lampooning the era’s justice [85:59].

Updates:

[104:54+]

• 2020 film “Marleene” explores how Truscott’s wife fought to clear his name.
• 2024: Revelations involving author Alice Munro’s late husband as a possible suspect.
• “Buried Bones” podcast also did a deep dive episode (“Bugged” – 8/30/23).

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7. Hometown Murder: Live Audience Story

[107:11–114:14]
Selected attendee “Sean” recounts a case from Muskoka involving a bodybuilder and an exotic dancer/drug dealer whose relationship devolves into violence and, ultimately, murder, body disposal, and conviction.

Story Highlights:

• Volatile relationship, criminal histories, and drug use.
• Death via blunt force, body dismemberment, buckets hidden in a crate under a porch.
• Three years elapse before discovery, conviction for second-degree murder, parole eligibility in 2030.

“So he does what any rational person would do is he goes to Home Depot and buys four five gallon drum buckets.” – Sean [110:51]

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8. Humor, Humanity & Recap

[114:43–115:49]

• Karen & Georgia brainstorm retitling the episode (“Fun to Panic,” “A flat brown candle”).
• Sincere gratitude to the Toronto audience and to Canadian listeners for ongoing support and engagement.

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9. Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “It would be fun to panic”—Karen, in a bit about being eager to fret over a missing friend [20:18]
• “Trigger butt. Itchy trigger butt. It happens a lot all over this great country. Leading cause of hilarity.” – Karen [19:32]
• “That's how some people cope... just get way down there by the Christmas decorations.” – Karen [34:24], joking about depression and the basement.

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OVERALL TONE AND LANGUAGE

Karen and Georgia’s style is at once irreverent, self-deprecating, and passionately empathetic. They balance graphic true crime content with candid personal asides, comic relief, and sensitivity to victims and communities. Canadian audience love runs throughout, and both hosts maintain their familiar dynamic of deadpan banter, occasional detours, and audience rapport.

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USEFUL TIMESTAMPS (MM:SS)

• Toronto show introduction & missing friend panic: [03:24]–[12:00]
• KitKat/candy discussion: [14:18]
• Explanation of podcast’s “make good” for previous episode: [30:06]
• Ken and Barbie rundown begins: [33:40]
• Critical victimology/police attitudes: [43:26]–[44:40]
• Homolka plea deal & public secrecy: [54:01]–[58:59]
• Reflection on trauma/ambient cultural impact: [67:35]
• Truscott wrongful conviction case begins: [75:43]
• Hometown murder story: [107:11]–[114:14]
• Episode wrap-up: [115:28]

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CONCLUSION

This “Rewind” episode showcases classic elements of My Favorite Murder—deep dives into notorious cases, honest critique of past missteps, comedic processing of tragedy, and vibrant interaction with their audience and each other. Toronto’s appreciative fans, disturbing true crime stories, and the hosts' unique blend of compassion and candor make this a standout, especially for those interested in justice, “dark tourism,” and community.

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Notable Final Words:

“So stay sexy and don’t get murdered.” – Karen & Georgia, [116:04]

Transcript

[Karen Kilgarra]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgarra]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgarra]

Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sometimes you need a trip that actually feels like an escape, not just a change of scenery.

That's exactly what Baja Mar and Nassau delivers between the casino and the water park. Like I could have stayed there for months.

We were so lucky to get to visit this place. And it truly I just kept saying like this is such a good idea where you immediately want to be in a tropical location, but then you also want to go out to dinner that night. That is the ultimate vacation for me of you're getting a little treat of everything.

[Karen Kilgarra]

It's paradise.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Plan your own [e-mail] Goodbye.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Goodbye.

My favorite hello

[Georgia Hardstark]

and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

That's right, it's Wednesday and that means it's time for us to recap our old episodes with all new commentary, updates and insights.

Today we're using it this episode to recap episode 91, which we named live at the Sony Theater in Toronto from our live show in Toronto, Canada.

This episode came out on October 19, 2017. Okay, let's listen to the intro of episode 91.

[Karen Kilgarra]

What's up toronto?

There, there, there, there, there.

What's up Toronto? There it is.

There, there, there.

The magic.

My mic is here. My mic is here. My mic is here.

My mic is here. For an hour and a half, that's all we're doing.

That's the show.

Yay comedy.

Oh my God. This is the biggest show we've ever done, you guys. Y

good job.

Fucking Canada. Representing big time. Pretty nice.

We like you guys more than our own country right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Get us a green card or whatever it takes to live here.

Please, please don't make it to come back. No, we're gonna get detained if we say that we're excited to be here. I don't know,

guys. Can I just explain my outfit really quick?

Everyone was wondering and waiting.

I just. I got a job here at the theater two weeks ago, and I love pulling that curtain. It's just who I am. Here's what happened. When we were recently in Australia, I brought these high heels with me that took up all this room in my suitcase. And every day I scorned them and I hated them and I glared at them. And at the end of the 10 day trip, I left them on my hotel room bed. Like, fuck you. You're on your own in a foreign country piece of shit. High heel shoes.

They're on their way back to her right now.

That's right.

Like a sad journey.

Yeah, they're like those cats that can walk all the way home and like, their owners move 500 miles away. Like, here I am, you son of a bitch. But I conveniently forgot that when I went to put all my things together for this trip. So I had my fancy, fancy dress last night. And then I realized when I got to the theater, I did not have shoes for very, very fancy dress. And so Georgia's like, that's okay. You can wear that. And I'm like, thank God this is actually what I want to wear.

The thing is.

Yeah, let's hear it for theater blacks. They're so slimming. At least you can tell yourself that I just made that up. And I never took an improv class.

No, I didn't either.

Did you just.

No.

Butt me?

Yep. And the thing is, it works for you because you're like, you were goth anyways, where when we decided to wear black to the shows, I had a. Like, all I have is, like, fucking paisley shit that, like, Mrs. Roper would wear and like, crazy moo moo and like, vintage things with moth holes in them. So I was like, I have to get a black dress. I like, literally on one. So now my closet's full of that. And so you were like, let's wear what we're wearing now. And I just had a shirt on, a gray shirt that said the husband did it. Yeah, I mean, I'm like, I can't wear that.

What more would you want? A show like this. You also had a really good Arthur Fonzarelli leather jacket on. I was like, this is a great look for us. Let's switch out of the fancy dress area.

Yeah, I support it. Well, I Did I do? I mean, I will.

Thanks. I appreciate it. Yeah, that's a. But wait. But there is a surprise, because Georgia's dress has. You guys are like Celine Dion. No, it's even better. Georgia's dress has pockets. Check it out. Yes.

And I'm wearing. And I'm like, I'm blaming it on you, but I'm so fucking happy to be doing it. The truth is to not wear my shitty shoes. Uncomfortable dress shoes out here. Yeah, I'm gonna wear my stanky ass slip ons.

Look at them. She bought the first pair of Toms. That's them right there on her feet.

It's not. No. Children were helped with these shoes. You can tell I'm a bad person from across the room. But the fact that I bought these

shoes because you were like, I could buy Toms and support children. Oh, look at these are on sale, right?

And I don't like the way Toms go all the way up and the thing. And they just don't look good on me. So I'm getting these shitty ones, and I'm a bad person.

Guys, here's the best thing that's happened, I feel like, since we've gone on tour today. We pulled off the freeway driving up from Detroit, Rock City. Thank you so much. And we stopped off in Dunham Hen. They don't know it because Georgia had to pee. And there was no gas station right off the freeway, so we kind of had to drive into the city a little bit.

The town. Yeah, we'll call it a town.

And we pulled over at like a what looked like a little grocery corner grocery store. And Georgia jumps out and she's like, I'll be right back. And runs inside. I had a pizza so bad it was emergency levels.

Yeah, I'm a baby.

So then Vince and I are sitting in the minivan. Yeah, that's right. And he's like, I have to pee, too. And I'm like, yeah, why aren't we getting out? I have to pee, too. We get out and we go into the store. And this store is half the size of this stage. Okay. We start walking around. There's no bathroom in the store, and Georgia is not in the store. And it was 20 seconds max between the time that we went into the store and the time she went into the store. And at first I was like, don't be crazy. You know, like as I'm walking and she's not there, and there's no sign that says restroom. There's nothing. And then as I came back this way. I crossed an aisle and I saw Vince walking this way, which means we were both covering all of the store at the same time. And she was not in the store. And then I was just like, this is how it fucking happens. Usually it's a baby or a small child, but still it's happening.

You lost your Georgia.

We lost her in Dunham 10.

Turns out there was a door. Maybe that's what you couldn't see. And I did the thing where I was, like, not asking for permission because I've got a pee so bad. And I know it's like one of those places where you're like, there's no way they're gonna let me. Even if I go. It's an emergency. You know, try to be cute, like, get really small. Yeah, same emergency.

I'm seven.

I just saw. I came in, saw the door, and fucking booked it through, like, what was obviously, like, the storage area.

Oh, yeah.

And I was like, these people who work here gotta pee somewhere, so I'm gonna pee there too. Yep. And it was one of those things where it's like, clearly this is not for customers because it hasn't been cleaned in 40 years. It's a mop in the corner while you're peeing and stuff. I didn't give a. Weirdly, though, the toilet had a toilet seat warmer, like, attachment on it.

Oh, those people know how to live.

I know.

Yeah.

This is why they don't want anyone to use the bathroom. They don't want to know they're not spending the money on the floors.

Yeah. They're like. They don't want other people in there because they're like, I need to go in there and have my time.

Yeah.

Just sit around on the toilet for a while.

Just a moment of real. I don't even have to be. I'm just going to sit on the

toilet and just really think about stuff.

Warm my butt. And so then I came out of the bathroom and Vince was like, in the door, and he was like, where were you? Like, I was like, oh, my God. Was I gone for four hours? Like one of those things where it was like, where did you go? And I was like, what? And I came out and you were like, what happened?

It was.

I was so scared.

I was going through that thing where I'm like, I mean, it might be too early to panic, but it would be fun to panic. So maybe I should just get my speech ready that I've always had where I go up to the counter and I'm like, listen, to me, my friend was in here 20 seconds ago and, like, really deliver that I am, like, the person who's lost a person's speech that I've always wanted to give my whole life. I need your help. Please call your local police authorities. Something like that. I was a little disappointed when you showed up.

Sorry.

Oh, she's back. It's over.

In another dimension, in a plane. I didn't show up.

That's right.

You had. Vincenzo came to the show, and then

I got taken down to the police station.

Can Munchausen by proxy mean, if you, like, also just throw someone out in the middle of the wilderness? I can't find her.

Yes. There's. There's got to be stories like that. There's. I mean, I guess a lot of them are like that.

That's this podcast. Yeah, that's what this podcast is.

That's what we do every week. Oh, by the way, this is the. My favorite murder podcast than this is. Thank you.

This is Georgia Hardstark, and that's Karen Kilgarra. You guys are lucky because last night at the Detroit show, someone, like, brought the mitten. Murderinos, they're called. Cause this is a mitten, I guess. And this is where Detroit is and shit. Which I just think Vince points at random places on his hand when he's telling me about where we are. They brought us little flags. And so the entire show last night was just flag themed because we couldn't put the fucking flags down. It was so much fun.

I don't know the last time you've waved a tiny triangular flag. Not a rectangular one. Not anything about countries or nations or citizenship. Just a little triangle one that's just about something you like. I'm telling you, do it as soon as you possibly can. I was out of my mind, filled with joy. I was just like, yeah, but it was only, like, this big. It was like, that big.

I'm telling you, during the whole show, we were both fucking doing it. That was the show. They didn't get a murder. They just got dancing with flags in

the middle of the show. As I was reading my very serious and horrifying murder, Georgia Ghost. Oh, my God. Red flag. And holds it up because it was the red flag.

She had just been like. And he took out a life insurance policy, and I was gonna go, red flag, red flag, red flag. It was really exciting for me and no one else.

I love those moments when you realize other people are way smarter than you, and you're just like, yes, I'm seven beats Behind. I love this.

I get what you did. Oh, my God.

Love it. Anyway, guys, apropos of nothing, there was a very small Canadian Kit Kat in the dressing room, and I just have to commend you. Do you appreciate it, though? Do you care as much as I do? Because if you've ever had an American Kit Kat, they're like having a small, flat, brown candle. They suck shit compared to what you people are doing up here with the Kit Kat. And I thank you. Thank you, thank you.

Well, they stopped having to worry about health care here, so they're like, you know what? Let's just make our chocolate really good. Once we get there, you guys, we're gonna fucking give you a run for your money in the chocolate department. No, we're not. We never get there. Don't worry.

We eat so much chocolate that we have to be hospitalized and it's free. That would be amazing.

Yeah. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. If we're gonna do it, we might as well do it here. Yeah. Tonight on stage, right now. Right, right, right. Oh, Steven's here.

Oh, Steven's here. Look at him.

Look at him, baby. Look at him.

Let the people look at you.

Yeah.

Give to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Look at him. Drink it in, Stephen. Drink it in.

What if I went? Oh, we left Steven at the liquor store, though, in the bathroom. We just left him on the side. Aw, Steven. Hi. Hi. Thanks, Steven. Steven, everyone.

Have you ever in your life, ever had 3,000 people cheer for you at one time?

I'm gonna pee myself. Yeah.

Okay. Well, that's Stephen in a nutshell, everybody. He doesn't say that much.

I've never seen him look that nervous before.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know.

[Karen Kilgarra]

It's weird. He acts all shy.

I know.

I forget how she run out here fast.

He was like. He was doing the, like. Ready to go.

Yeah.

What's it called? Ready to go.

He was down, and he was up, and he was off. You know what's funny? I just realized that Steven was standing here because we always give him lots of shit when he comes out here, and also when he's not here. It's super fun. He's our whipping boy in every way. He's the person who edits our show, so he knows all the stuff that we demand get. Obviously, that gets cut out of the show, and there is a very good chance that he's keeping all of the stuff that we want out. Don't say no, Steven, because I know what you're like. I've seen that fucking mustache in action.

I know what you're like, what if he has, like, a home computer? Just for the bullshit? We've been like, oh, my God, cut that out. Because there's so much of it.

I'm like, I hate Bulgarians. And he's like, here we go. I'm going to end you.

Gonna need this one day. We know. Oh, man, I hope so. Yeah.

I mean, let's.

If we're gonna get ruined by anyone and. Or, like, you know, it might as well be Steven.

It's gotta be that guy.

Why not?

And then the Purr cast is here next year.

Yeah.

This whole stage is filled with cats. People like shit like that.

Oh, speaking of cats, my hair tonight is brought to you by Linda at Bob's Burgers. From Bob's Burgers.

Bob's Burgers. The new season's coming on tomorrow night, everybody. I don't work for them. I'm just a fan.

I don't even know them.

I guess we. Is it time?

I think it's time.

It's time for us to sit down. Thank you. I think it's hilarious that that actually is, like, an applause cue for you guys. It's precious.

Yeah.

Any bit of extra clapping that we can milk out of you, we absolutely will definitely.

Aw.

Thank you.

Our lifeblood is renew.

But we also realize there are people that get brought to these shows of ours who do not listen to the podcast. They're like, who the fuck was that? Millennial. Like, what's going on?

Someone's like, my best friend, like, you know, broke up with me today. Will you please come with me to the show? I don't wanna go alone. And they come and they're like, okay, you'll like it. You love comedy.

They're like, I've seen two girls talking before. I don't need the. I didn't need a pass to go see that shit.

So just so you guys know, this is a podcast about murder called My Favorite Murder.

It's our favorite ones, but it's also a comedy podcast, which can be a bit dicey.

So hold onto your butts, everyone.

Yeah. Especially if your butt gets triggered really easily. I'd just be careful.

You got a trigger butt.

Itchy trigger butt. It happens a lot all over this great country.

Leading cause of hilarity.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, we're back.

Every time we record one of these

[Karen Kilgarra]

rewind episodes, I expect it to be

[Georgia Hardstark]

closer to what year it is right now.

[Karen Kilgarra]

2026. And it's always so far in the past.

[Georgia Hardstark]

2017.

It's so far pre Covid, even.

Yeah. Oh, My God. Yeah.

It's like we didn't even know how good we had it.

[Karen Kilgarra]

No.

Like, it was a glimmer in our eyes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I just wonder when the day will be when we're like, oh, that was just last year.

[Karen Kilgarra]

It's just. Will we ever catch up?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know. It's so nuts. Also, I know for a fact I do this, but I have so many great memories of doing shows in Toronto, But I've combined them all into one, like the one.

[Karen Kilgarra]

One visual.

[Georgia Hardstark]

One kind of thing where I'm like, no, that was the first one. No, that was the second one.

[Karen Kilgarra]

But always a great audience.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgarra]

This is the one where you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You guys thought you lost me.

Yes.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Oh, my God. That was the dumbest.

[Audience Member / Guest]

It was.

[Karen Kilgarra]

What was it? Disappeared. It was like this episode of Disappeared.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was like. Yeah, exactly. It was that Kurt Russell movie.

Yes.

Where all of a sudden his wife's gone and no one can help him. It was that feeling where the whole time I kept going, I know she's here. This is a st to, like, be worried about. But then it's like, every minute that

[Karen Kilgarra]

ticks by, you're like, is it? Well, that's weird.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Is she not?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I would watch a movie or a TV show where the best friend and husband are trying to find her. And that, you know, I don't want it to happen in real life by episode or by season three is, you know, will they? Won't they? It's just kind of a.

As they're waiting for her as soon as.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Oh, that'd be good.

That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When the, like, she staggers in with it, a big branch in her hair. It's like, wait, what? Where have you been?

[Karen Kilgarra]

She's living with a pack of coyotes. And she's like, what have you done?

A pack of coyotes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But it's only, like, 20ft behind the

[Karen Kilgarra]

gas station they were at.

I just really had to pee.

I panicked.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I panicked and moved in.

I had to pee so bad that I was getting angry at Vince and,

[Karen Kilgarra]

like, it was somehow his fault that

[Georgia Hardstark]

there wasn't a bathroom.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Like, because we were on the freeway, he was driving.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I just remember, like, I know this is, like, not pointed in the right direction.

Rarely is, but.

But I'm so fucking pissed at him right now.

Well, and also, here's the thing. We were doing three different cities a weekend and driving from one to the other. It was above and beyond touring. It was touring to the max, and we also were doing it. It never stopped. It started and never stopped.

[Karen Kilgarra]

It was the traffic tour.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was nutso. There was so much Starbucks involved.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Yes, there was.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I ate so many of those egg bites that I can't eat them anymore.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Sous vide.

[Georgia Hardstark]

For real. I'm like, oh, they're good because they're protein. But no, I think never again.

Never again.

No, I think this was just a classic, beautiful Toronto show and we should get right into it, don't you think?

Yeah, because you fucking surprised the audience with one of the biggest Canadian fucking true crime stories of all time.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Which I think they. I mean, they like the obscure ones too, but they love it when you.

[Karen Kilgarra]

The audience loves it when you're like,

[Georgia Hardstark]

here is your put you on the map story.

Plus it was a make good for the bad way I told it the first time.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Right, Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgarra]

Yeah.

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgarra]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgarra]

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[Karen Kilgarra]

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[Karen Kilgarra]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgarra]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgarra]

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[Karen Kilgarra]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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Goodbye

[Karen Kilgarra]

do you go first? I think I go first. We did two shows last night in

Detroit and I went first, Right? Yeah.

It's me, right? Stephen.

We got a thumbs up from Stephen.

Yeah, if Stephen says we go first.

Yeah. That's his name.

Yeah. Stephen. One of the 3,000 people yelled your name, so calm down.

She wins this rug, she gets to take this rug home with her tonight.

Oh, guys, we brought this rug from home. Just so you know.

I get a little homesick when we travel, so I'd like to have something with me. Vince is one possibility, but I also like to have my rug. You know, it's really high maintenance, but

I would love if, like this specific kind of assholes we're going to turn into. If we do a lot of shows like this, we're just. Is the rug there?

Yeah.

Well, then I'm not there. How's that? A lot of that kind of stuff.

Yeah.

Where's the rug? The rug rehearsal was at 5:30 and no one was there.

Rug rehearsal. I love that.

Wait, I just have to say that these are the most comfortable and reasonably heighted chairs we've ever sat in.

Speaking of getting into specifics, you just. We never know what the chair situation is gonna be like until we sit down. I was positive my chair was gonna break last night. I didn't want to say it at the theater because I didn't want to insult them in their chairs, but there was this wobbly thing that I was like, this is gonna. And it was like such that I knew that I'd felt backwards. Oh, and they were high.

Yes, they were very high last night. We should start wearing helmets.

Okay, but they have to be black.

They have to be formal. Helmets.

Formal. So onto the murder part. Oh, shit, girl. I saw this.

Did you see it?

I did. I'm gonna.

Okay, so this is a heavier sneaky peek.

I can't help it if I have perfect vision.

And you're a really good upside down reader.

This is a heavy hitter. I'm sorry.

No, no, go ahead.

Heavy Hitters episode, I think.

Heavy hitter. But it's also. It's also apology makeup work for the city of Toronto and the country of Canada as a whole.

We owe you. Guys, guys.

Long, long ago in 1968, when we started this podcast. And I thought it was kind of like. I thought it was what we were talking about it to be when we first conceived of it, which was, hey, you and me, I'll sit in your living room and we'll just like, talk about serial killers and murder and true crime and stuff that we're kind of fascinated by casually, conversationally. And very quickly we learned that that is absolutely not the way you can talk about true crime. Because you have to know years and cities and facts and dates. And the truth is really important. It's a big part of it. And I think it was around like the third episode. I. Thanks.

They knew. They were ready to tell you because they're pissed. Oh,

I did this one and I talked through it as if it happened to my neighbor. I was so young back then. The whole reason I wanted to do it is cause I had one actually like one person away from one degree away story that I love to tell all the time. And that's what I was building the whole concept around. But like I didn't do any research at all. And I remember some girl emailing or tweeting, but she was just like, that was horrible. And then I was like, yeah, that was horrible, you're right. And then this whole time I've been saving it to come to Toronto to redo it because I felt that it was quite an awakening to realize that I just signed up for a podcast where I had to do a fucking book report every week. It's not my jam, as you can. Well, as you well know. But anyway, tonight I'm gonna do the case of the schoolgirl killers. The Ken and Barbie killers, Paul Bernardo and Carla Homolk. For visitors, boyfriends, girlfriends, people who've never come before. We're not cheering for the murderers. We're not. It feels like we are. I understand why that would bother a person and maybe scare them to death.

Uh huh.

That's not what's happening. At least with me. I shouldn't speak for everybody. All right. I got most of the research from this retelling of the factual story from the A and E series biography that they did on these murders, which is actually incredibly thorough. And they had a Scottish narrator, which I think is bold.

Definitely the Canadian guy was sick that day. The Canadian guy that they had for it.

Well, it was YouTube, so it's international, I guess.

Okay.

Unless they do only Canadian YouTube here. Like that's the thing they don't tell you about Canada.

They fucking take over your YouTube and the Internet. Like this site can't be seen Canadian.

Sorry about that. Okay. The other chunk of information or bunch of information that I got was I stumbled upon this amazing article on a website called the Walrus. Mm, yeah, it's so good.

That's a good one.

So a girl, a woman named Stacy Mayfield Fowles wrote this. She is from Scarborough. She was 11 years old at the time that the Scarborough rapist was at the height of, like, his reign of terror. And she wrote a beautiful article that I highly recommend you go read called Boy Next Door. It's amazing. I cried at the end. It was really fucking great. And it made me really happy. And I stole, stole, stole. Okay, okay. So Paul Bernardo was born 1964 in Scarborough, Ontario. He was the youngest child to Kenneth and Marilyn Bernardo, an unhappy couple. Isn't that how these always start?

I mean, what couple that we know

in these stories is happy or sober?

Yeah.

His father would later face charges of being a peeping Tom and a pedophile. And he also molested Paul's sister. So bad things were happening from jump for Paul. He also physically verbally abused his whole family. And he often called his wife bitch and big fat cow. His mother was a depressive. I wonder why. And she'd often leave the family for the weekend and just go stay with her family. And after a while in this family, things got so bad that she just went down and lived in the basement. Whoa. Yeah, that's how some people cope.

Just.

You go as low as you can. Just get way down there by the Christmas decorations. So. So dark. It's just like, mom, is there any milk left? That's okay. I'll do it. I'll do it. So although Paul Bernardo was described as a happy child, as a youth, when he joined the Boy Scouts, all the people, the leaders, noticed that he. He really loved starting fires. And that was his Boy Scout jam.

Well, aren't they supposed to start fires?

I mean, they're Boy Scouts.

I got scared for a minute, but then I was like, wait a minute.

But it's like, you get your badge, and then you don't need to start a whole bunch of other fires.

Okay, got it, got it, got it. Is the thing smart.

So 1981, when he was 16, he found out that Kenneth wasn't his biological father, and he lost his shit, obviously. Although in retrospect, I would feel pretty good about it.

Yeah, that's a positive.

The peeping Tom is not your dad. Quit crying. Everything's fine. But of course, he was 16. This had been his life. It's like he found out his whole life was a lie. So he was furious at his mother. He blamed his mother for the whole thing. Started calling her slut and whore, you know, and she started calling him bastard all the time. Just fucking good times. Sunday to Sunday at Bernardo's House. Come over for dinner. You're going to love it. Okay, so after he graduates from high school, he gets a job with Amway. Oh, are you guys familiar with Amway? It's like a pyramid scheme. It's weird. They just send. They sell a bunch of different shit. But it's like, really, the point is that you get more people that you know to come in and sell this weird, like, laundry detergent and shit. Just a pyramid scheme.

It's like, Karen, have you noticed how clean my shirt is?

I actually did notice that here at lunch.

Like, be. Be with one of us, right?

I want my shirt to be that clean. They're really not that clean. But what he really picked up from working there was this the. What they call the polemic sales culture. Didn't look it up. Not sure what it means, but what I assume it means is pushy, pushy, pushy. Like, they don't take no for an answer, and they kind of, like, get you from every direction. They're super manipulative. Or it could mean casual. Who knows? That's the joy of this podcast. It's all question marky.

We have to stay true to some of our roots, or else it won't be the podcast you listen to.

That's right. I had to leave one thing unresearched just so you knew I was still me. Yeah, I gotta be me. Okay. He starts using these sales techniques to pick up women. By the time he begins, yeah, because women love detergent. By the time he starts going to school at the University of Toronto at Scarborough, he is displaying, sure, go Raccoons. He's displaying all the signs of being a psychopath. Charming, outgoing, life of the party, but also an incredibly sinister dark side that only a couple people know about. Like his girlfriends who keep on breaking up with him. All of his relationship time lengths just keep getting shorter and shorter. Cause women go out with him and they're just like, sorry, you're not allowed to call me a slut. I have only known you for three days. Okay, we'll see you later. So he actually threatened to kill a couple of his girlfriends if they ever told how abusive he was to them in their private life.

Oh, my God.

He was fixated on conquering women. He was just obsessed with picking them up, having sex with them, and then making them do whatever he wanted. All right, so that's Paul Bernardo in a nutshell. I'm sure there's tons of other things to say about it. But now, Carla, this is because that obsession that he had making women do whatever he wanted. That's where Carla Homolko comes into the scene. She was born in 1970 in Port Credit, Ontario. Her father was a traveling salesman and an alcoholic. Of course, she had two younger sisters, Lori and Tammy. Carla was also a bright student. She was. She. Oh, she. Their father was drunk. Was a drunk that would insult the whole family. And then he would go down into the basement.

What the fuck?

Isn't that fucking weird?

Yeah. What are the chances? Is that a thing here? They're like, yeah, no, everyone's parents said that it's okay.

Yeah, that's Canada. That's where all the KitKats are.

They just don't tell America. Don't tell the US about us.

What if. It's very healing to go into the basement? It's actually very good for you. They're just like, that's our secret. It's good for your skin. Okay. So also, when Carla's mother found out that her father was having an affair, she told him it was fine and to invite the mistress in for a menage a trois. So there's a lot of bad relationship patterning for both of these people.

If I had a tiny red flag, I would check it right here. Here you go. It would be fun.

Okay, so she was described as a child, as being stubborn, domineering. She was a rebel. In high school. She cut herself. She would always claim that she was going to commit suicide to get attention. She graduated in 1988 and she became a full time veterinary technician. Up until that last part, that was so me. So me. Okay. In May of 1987 in Scarborough, a 21 year old woman gets off the bus. She's followed by a man who was on the bus as well. And he comes up from behind, assaults her. And she ends up being the first victim of the Scarborough Rapist. And over the next 13 months, these assaults continue and they escalate very quickly. The Scarborough rapist begins raping women, orally, vaginally and anally, cutting them or penetrating them with a knife. He chokes them, he punches them in the face. He stole one victim's id, noted her home address, and then threatened to kill her family. He broke another victim's arm. All the victims were attacked from behind, so none of them saw his face. But they all described him as a tall young man with light hair. While he was attacking them, he made them call themselves degrading names like slut and whore. So the police call in the FBI immediately to profile this rapist, which is a great move. And they bring in FBI agent Greg McCreary. You have seen this guy on every crime show there is. He is the guy, he's the FBI agent with the gray hair who looks really tired of crime. Like, he's like so fuck sick of people being bad to each other. So, like when he's explaining stuff, he's kind of quiet like this, but he's just. He's kind of like man's inhumanity to man. That's what he's saying. No matter what he's actually saying, that's just always what he's saying. I love Greg McCreary. Okay, so he does a profile on the rapist. He says this is a sadistic rapist with a high probability of escalation. Young, in his early 20s, local, intelligent, high functioning, in a dependent living situation. So probably living with his family.

So crazy that he was able to determine all fucking.

Yeah, yeah, they know all that shit.

It's crazy. Fascinating.

And then a psychopath, obviously. So In April of 1988, a 19 year old woman is attacked after getting off the bus. She was actually pulled between two houses and raped and yelled for help. And the people in the house has heard her and didn't respond.

No, guys, that's not how we.

That's not how we do it.

No.

So the next month, the total number of known Scarborough rapist victims had risen to seven. So this is a little bit crazy. Constable Vic Clark told the press, quote, don't expect people to watch out for you if you happen to come back at 1am in the morning, off the bus.

Us

like the police, Right? Like the police. He said. It'd be nice to think that you can go anywhere you like nowadays, but don't put yourself in a vulnerable position. Hold on. Hold your hate.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because

[Karen Kilgarra]

the same month Alderman John Mackey proposed a curfew for women.

Oh, for women. Finally

get him off the street.

We've been waiting to be told what time we're safe.

Just the logic there is.

Yeah.

You're curfewing the gender, that is not raping anybody.

Okay?

No, no, no. Come on, Come on. In a refreshing turn, the Toronto Transit Commission instituted its Request Stop program. Right. Which meant that women who rode the bus at night could tell the bus driver, you can drop me right here in front of my fucking house. And you didn't have to wait till the next bus stop so that women could get delivered exactly to where they needed to be.

Wow.

That's what you do. That's problem solving right there.

Moving here immediately.

Okay. October 17, 1987, Carla Homolka is now age 17, and she meets Paul Bernardo, age 23, in a hotel restaurant in Scarborough. Two hours later, they're having sex in her hotel room, which, no judgment. Hey, look. Yeah, if there were anybody else, we'd be into it. The friends who were with both of them that day said that the chemistry was. She was palpable. Like it was in the air. Like it always is when two psychopaths meet and fall in love. So do. Steven. Will you put up that first picture

of the happy couple, Barbie and Ken.

Look at those warm, welcoming eyes on both of them. They're just. Wouldn't you love to sit in a hotel restaurant and stare across at her satanic. Satanic eye and then his. Whatever they're doing eyes and his tiny,

tiny teeth with a fake smile surrounding them.

He's like, this is what humans do when cameras come out. This is it. Happiness. Well, Carla's family thinks that Paul Bernardo is great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They don't mind.

[Karen Kilgarra]

They age different. Her parents don't mind the age difference. He's smart, good looking, he's trained to be an accountant. Her sisters think of him as the brother they never had. Soon he's coming to her. She still lives with her parents and soon he's driving to her house like a couple times a week. I think it was an 80 mile drive from Scarborough to St. Catharines, which is where she lived. She brags to her friends about how mature her 23 year old boyfriend is. Within a year, she's confiding to them that he has become verbally abusive to her.

Oh, fuck.

But she always forgives. December 24, 1989, they take a trip to Niagara Falls and they get engaged. Did someone applaud?

No, I think someone took their compact out of their purse because they have something in their eye.

And like, they're like, I love love and I don't care.

It's like one snap and she's just like, shit.

Okay, so they plan to marry in spring of 1991. The family's thrilled. In May of 1990, just six months later, the Scarborough police release a composite sketch of the Scarborough rapist based on all of the victims telling the police sketch artist. So can we see that composite sketch? Oh, I'm so excited. Oh, Stephen, I wish you would have cropped that up a little higher. Fucking. Why do we pay you? Oh, my God, he left. He ripped off his mustache and left. He looks like he's in the Style Council.

He looks. Can I add another one?

Yeah.

He looks like when you walk by Like a cheap hair salon. And they have photos in the windows or what people? Yeah, this is the call. This girlbro rapist.

I hate to say it out loud, but I love this garbro rapist look. Is it wrong? I think the sweepover would look great on my giant forehead. Okay, well, here's what's crazy is Paul Bernardo's friends and his co workers see this and they're like, Ring, Ring, Ring911 or whatever it is in Canada. Hello? Get me the fucking police right now.

Shut up.

A ton of people that he worked with and that were friends with him called the police and were like, that's Paul Bernardo. And can we do the side by side comparison? Yeah.

Oh, shit. I don't see it. No, I'm just kidding. Fuck, man.

Okay, so the police bring him in for an interview. He's polite, he's charming and he's calm, like any good psychopath would be. He volunteers his DNA. What? It can't be you. They collect hair, blood and saliva samples that are sent to the lab where they will sit for two years.

I don't like that.

It's 1990. Okay, so then he moves in with Carla and her parents in St. Catharines and suddenly the Scarborough rapes. Stop. That's crazy. He tells Carla that. So this is. This is where it gets. I mean, we knew this was going to happen, but this is so far. So he tells Carla that she can't give him the one thing he really wants, which is her virginity, because she already gave that away, so she can still give it to him just through the person closest to her, her 15 year old sister, Tammy. And Carla agrees. So on December 23rd, after the whole rest of the family goes to bed, Paul and Carla invite Tammy to stay up with them after the. And Carla has crushed sleeping pills and animal tranquilizers that she stole from her job. Oh my God.

As a vet.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgarra]

It's so dark.

Yeah. Into her drink, she loses consciousness. Carla puts a rag soaked with the drug halothine over her face. Paul rapes her. When Paul's done, he tells Carla he wants her to rape her. She does. All of it is on videotape. So in the middle of that, Tammy begins to vomit and then choke on her own vomit. And Paul and Carla rush put her clothes back on her and then call an ambulance. In the early hours of December 24, 1990, Tammy Homolka is pronounced dead. And aside from the mysterious burn marks on her face, which Carla and Paul say must have been rug burns, her death is Ruled an accident. A month later, Paul and Carla move out of her parents house in St. Catharines. They move into a two story house in Port Dalucy. I did it right.

Good job.

Thank you. Because I spelled it, it looks like deluisi kind of a little bit.

You just went for it.

That could have. I really did.

I'm proud of you.

Thank you so much. It was really fucking scary.

No, it's terrifying.

There's so many people here.

Like, you guys made us chair. Not you guys, but this podcast has made us scared of saying places in this world.

We never say it right. Ever.

Yeah, I mean, I guess it's not your fault, it's our fault, but still, it's your fault.

Okay. When they're in their own house, he starts physically abusing Carla. And then when she threatens to leave him, he reminds her he has a videotape of her killing her own sister. And so she has to stay. June 15, 1991. Paul wakes Carla up in the middle of the night to tell her he has a surprise. He has kidnapped 14 year old Leslie Mahaffy out of her own backyard. So this is super fucked. Leslie had gone out for the day. I think I read something where it said that she was at a friend's funeral and then she stayed out past her curfew. So she probably like if her friend died, she got drunk with her friends or something. And when she got home, it was past her curfew. Her parents locked her out of the house. So she went into the backyard and that's when Paul Bernardo saw her. And he lured her into his car with a cigarette, offering her a cigarette. She was like, sure. And then he ends up kidnapping her and taking her to the house. Paul and Carla videotaped themselves raping and torturing Leslie for 24 hours, then strangle her, cut up her body, encase it in cement and dump it in Lake Gibbs. Two weeks later, on June 29, 1991, two fishermen spot some strange blocks in the lake as they're fishing. When they look closer, they see the human flesh is sticking out of the cement. It's the body of Leslie Mahaffy. On the same day that her body is found, Paul Bernardo and Carla Homolka get married in a Catholic church in Niagara on the lake in front of 100 friends and family members. When in the special that I was watching, when it switched from that to the video of their fucking fucked up early 90s wedding, it like the version of chills I got were like, this is insanity. These are people who are completely cut off from any reality of what they're doing. It was. It's horrifying. And the hair and the dress was so ugly. I'm sure that was part of it, but. Okay. Now Paul starts telling Carla that he wants her to invite Tammy's friends over to the house so that he can do the same thing to Tammy's friends. And she does. So they start drugging these girls that were friends with her sister. And a lot of these girls had no memory of anything happening. They only found out after the videotapes were found, and then they were informed that that had happened to them.

Oh, my God. Yeah.

Couldn't be darker. Okay. On April 16, 1992, Paul and Carla are driving around looking for a new victim. They're just full on fucking predators. They see a 15 year old girl named Kristen French who's walking home from school. They pull into a church parking lot. Carla gets out holding a map. And then when Kristen walks by, she waves her like, sorry, I need to know directions. And they pull her into the car and kidnap her. But this time there's witnesses. So people saw. People actually saw Kristen get taken. But when they report it to the police, multiple people say that it was a beige Camaro. So immediately the police realize a girl's been kidnapped. A girl's body has just been found. We've got something serious happening. They start, they put together what they called the Green Ribbon Task Force, dedicated to figuring out what the fuck is going on. And the Green River Task Force puts up this billboard immediately, have you seen this car? Wanted in the abduction of Kristen French. And there's the Green Ribbon hotline. The only problem was that Paul Bernardo drove a gold Nissan. He did not drive a beige Camaro. So it was a huge, misleading. April 30, 1992. Kristin's body is found in a ditch in Burlington. She's clearly been tortured. Her hair has been cut off. Then the violence within the marriage begins to escalate. On January 5, 1993, Carla goes to the emergency room. Paul's beaten her with a flashlight. She has two black eyes that go from like here to here, and they're dark purple. She has broken ribs, extreme bruising. Before she leaves the house to go to the emergency room, she tries to go find the videotapes and she can't find them anywhere. Twenty days later, January 25, 1993, the DNA samples come back that Bernardo had given to the Scarborough police, and they match the DNA of the Scarborough rapist. So the Toronto police bring Carla in to talk to her because they know you talk to the wife, you know, like, basically they have to break the news to her and then try to get information. And it's our boy, FBI agent Greg McCreary, who leads the interview. Well, the Grie Briband task force was there too, and they did the interview and they knew everything that was going on, they knew. So they didn't accuse her of anything. They were more talking to her like they were being understanding and just basically trying to get information out of her. So basically, once she talks to the police, she kind of knows that they're closing in on them. So she goes to an uncle and she confesses everything. She tells the uncle everything that they've done. And the uncle says, you have to get a lawyer right now. So she tells the lawyer, you have to get me full immunity for my. I'll testify against my husband, but you have to give me immunity. So then she ends up making a full confession, saying that Paul is the Scarborough Rapist, that he's responsible for the murders of Kristen French, Leslie Mahaffey and her sister Tammy, and that she was forced to participate in all of it against her will. And then she says, all the proof that they need is in their house on those videotapes, if they just find them. So on February 19, 1993, a search warrant is executed in Bernardo home. There's, it's a 71 day search. What the fuck? Yeah, they just kept looking because they couldn't fucking find these videotapes anywhere. And they ended up not being able to find them in the house. So without evidence, without that kind of evidence, they only have Carla's testimony. So they have to plea bargain with her because they need her testimony. So she agrees to testify against him in exchange for a reduced sentence. The whole deal was kept secret from the public to ensure a fair trial for Paul Bernardo. So reporters were allowed in the courtroom the day of her sentencing, but they were only allowed, it was a publicity ban. They were called, they called it. And they were only allowed to report on what the charges were and what the sentence was. They weren't allowed to report on anything else that happened. So. So of course this made all the press go crazy of like, how bad is this? This must be the worst thing ever, because they never do stuff like this. So In July of 1993, Carla Homolka pleads guilty to two counts of manslaughter and she receives two 12 year sentences to be served concurrently. No, that was her deal. She's sent to Kingston Prison and then soon after she files for divorce. September Right, Yeah.

Like, at this point, don't worry about it.

Cut. Bait, baby.

Yeah, get out. Her lawyer's like, I'm not also doing that.

Yeah, you can't pay me enough. She's like, hey, every psychopath for themselves. I don't have a conscience, so I don't care about you, my husband. Okay. So in September 1994, Paul Bernardo's lawyer called quits. He's not going to represent him anymore. That's how bad it was. Well, it turns out that the reason that the cops couldn't find those videotapes inside their house is because Paul Bernardo's lawyer had gone into the house and taken them out. No, they were hidden up in. Just for future use. If you ever are looking for anything or need to hide anything. They were upstairs in a bathroom ceiling light fixture. Upstairs, like, hidden up above.

What a dick. Yeah, the lawyer.

Dick lawyer. But then when he quit, he gave the tapes to the next lawyer who was representing Paul Bernardo. And that guy's like, yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and give these to the cops.

The law,

I mean. Right?

Yeah.

Let me just say this, though. Not right away, really, like two weeks later.

Oh. Like, thought about it.

I mean, I don't know.

It slept on it.

I mean, for two weeks he thought about it, and then he was like, oh, I don't want to be the devil like the rest of these people. Okay. So, May 18, 1995, Paul Bernardo's trial begins. Oh, sorry. So once the police have the tapes, they have to look at them, they see what's on them, and they realize that her story of Paul being fully responsible for everything is a total fucking lie. And that she was happily participating in all of it as coldly and horribly as he was. And that, yes, she was clearly an abused wife, but still on the videotape, didn't seem to be having a problem with any of it. And they then realized that they called it the deal with the devil, where they just. Basically, they'd given her the easiest way out, and she was just as guilty as he was, according to the videotape, which, you know, is pretty objective. Okay, so. May 18, 1995, Paul Bernardo's trial begins. The defense claims that Carla was the one who turned Paul into a murderer. He was just a plain rapist before, but she. She fucking Yoko Ono, that shit. She got in there and she fucked it up and she should have a curfew. But then Carla gives her testimony, and then on September 1st, 1995, the jury deliberates for eight hours and then finds Paul Bernardo, guilty of all nine charges against him, including two counts of first degree murder.

Yeah.

He's sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole for 25 years.

No, that's not long enough.

1995.

No.

Do a little math.

I can't.

Okay.

That's soon.

Okay.

Okay.

He was also, a couple months later, declared a dangerous offender, which meant that he would likely spend the rest of his life in jail. Don't clap so fast. In 2001, an Ontario Court ordered that all evidence from the Paul Bernardo, Carla Homolka cases be destroyed. So Leslie Mahaffey and Kristen French's parents and a bunch of the officers and the detectives that worked on the case went down and witnessed all of the pictures and all of the videotape and all of the evidence from the entire case, watched it all get destroyed, which makes me very happy. In 2005, 35 year old Carla Homolka was released from prison after serving a 12 year sentence.

What the fuck?

Don't. It feels like you're booing us. She moved to Montreal. She changed her name to Leanne Thiel.

Oh, we know her. Who?

She is Leanne Teal. That's what I would have changed my name to if I had to move away.

Sure.

Cause Teal's a great color, and Leanne is a name no one uses anymore. She got married and in 2007, she had a baby.

No, no, no, no, no, no.

It was recently discovered that she was volunteering at her child's school. And in June, that school just released a statement not naming any names, but saying that they do not allow anyone with a criminal record on their property. So she no longer volunteers for her child's school. Oh, do we have that? Steven, do you have that picture of. This is modern day.

Oh, shit. I wonder, at the school, did everyone, like, recognize her and know who she was?

I think there's people out there that are like, excuse me, I know who she is. She couldn't move back to her hometown, which is what she was going to do when she first got out of jail. So she had to move to Montreal.

What a monster.

I mean, not that I'm sure it's great. I love French people, but she had

to move to Montreal.

She had to. FBI profiler Greg McCreary believes Carla Homolka may have been more psychopathic than Paul Bernardo, being that she was able to live with the murder of her own sister. Just the. I mean, you can't compare psychopathy, I don't think. But I like the idea that he was like, you know, Something to think about. And the whole time I was. It's that thing where you're like, well, when battered women. Aren't they, you know, you have battered spouse syndrome. You're in that situation, what would you do? Or what would you be forced to do? Or what?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Whatever.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Then I read this. This piece of information that I thought was pretty bone chilling. When Carla Homolka was questioned and fingerprinted by the police, they noticed that she was wearing a Mickey Mouse watch that looked a lot like the one Kristen French was wearing when she disappeared. Just in case you had any worries about Carla, that she was being persecuted. I don't think if you were in that situation that you'd just be like, oh, a trophy.

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay.

Fuck. Fuck. My hands hurt. Cause I'm gripping this microphone so tightly. Cause I'm like, oh, my God.

Sorry, it's almost over.

No, no, no. In a good way. That's not a bad thing.

In 2017, Paul Bernardo, that's this year. So he has served 22 years of his sentence already, which means that they're now starting to discuss parole issues. Despite being declared a dangerous offender, he is in 2018. Or no, this year, he's eligible for day parole, which means you get to leave jail and then come back in the evening.

No, that's not how prison works.

Well, everyone, the hearing was supposed to be in August, and they pushed it to October, so.

And it's happening on the stage, right? Ladies and gentlemen, let's all get up on stage and murder him. We just.

We cause a fucking Canadian riot like you wouldn't believe. That would be the most badass move of all time.

Yeah.

Paul Bernardo's hearing will likely take place at the Millhaven Institute in Bath, which is near Kingston, which is where he has been serving his life sentence. He is eligible for full parole in 2018. So we'll see how it goes.

You guys, don't do it.

Please don't do it.

Please.

Who here is deciding? Okay, so I just want to read you the final paragraph of Stacey May Fowell's article, because I loved it so much. It's this quote. I came across, a story that ran in the Star, published soon after the trial concluded, which argued that Bernardo was not the monster we wanted to believe him to be, but rather one of us. A product of our culture, a man groomed with a pervasive, violent hatred of women. Mary Lou McPhadren, a women's rights advocate, spoke of the insidious impact Bernardo had on our community, that he had created an Ambient trauma. Even for those who had not been directly victimized by him. It is a wound that will probably never heal. The Bernardo case has been played out as a titillating drama, she said, and we fail to understand what it's done to us.

Wow.

That's it. So fucked up. Really terrible.

You made up for episode three, I think.

I can't say sorry any more than what I just did. That's all I can do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's.

[Karen Kilgarra]

No, that's.

Let's go back to episode three. Steven, take this note, take out Karen's story and put this in just out of the blue.

Wait, can I retell the whole reason I told that story in the first place? That story of my friends.

Oh yeah, I don't ever remember.

Is this like this one last thing?

Ooh, hands are so cold and dry. No, I forgot very fast.

Okay, my friend. So Paul Greenberg, who was on a sketch show called the Vacant Lot, you should know him and love him. He is from here. Hilarious, man. Now he lives in Los Angeles. You might hate him because of that. Anyhow, he's the one that told me the story. His mother was an artist and she lived in a high rise apartment building that had pool and on the roof. And she lived in Scarborough at the time that all of these things were going on in the beginning of it. Not the couple's schoolgirl killer time in the Scarborough. Rapist time. She goes up to swim one day, it's daytime, there's nobody up there and she's doing laps. She is, I believe at the time she was in her late 60s or early 70s. She's doing laps in the pool and a young man comes out onto the roof as well. She doesn't really pay attention. She's just doing her laps. And then she finally looks up and realizes he's just standing at the end of the pool staring at her. And as she's doing her laps, it's like he's just standing over her watching her swim. And she is super freaked out by it and really scared. And it's getting to the point he starts walking along the side of the pool as she swims.

Uh huh.

And so she's shitting and it's not the way she would tell the story, I'm sure, until the fucking roof door bursts open and like three families with kids run out. And she's like, who? I'm outta here. Okay. So she goes right back down to her apartment and sketches his face. She's like, uh, well when that. When that Scarborough rapist picture came Out. She went and pulled the sketch out and showed Paul. And she's like, that's the man that was on the roof. And it was the exact same guy.

Oh, my God. Yeah. Chills.

I know. I love a firsthander. I'm sorry?

I love a firsthander. Absolutely.

It's the best.

Great job.

Thank you. That's okay. Too much. There's too much clapping. It's too much clapping.

It went from us needing it and loving it and making. Making up for a lot of love we lost as children to just being a little too much the clapping, to

ruining our own clapping.

Okay, we are back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Karen, you have any updates?

There are some updates. Paul Bernardo has applied for parole three times. October 2018, June 2021, and November 2024. He's been denied all three times. During his last hearing, members from both Leslie and Kristen's families spoke. Deliberation only took 30 minutes. He's 60 years old. In November of 2023, he was moved from Millhaven to Makaza, which was a medium security prison. Of course there was backlash. I mean, this man is one of the worst serial rapists of all time. What's the need to move him to a medium security prison? No, no, he's 90.

[Karen Kilgarra]

He's 60 years old, right?

60. Yeah, exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So then there was a probe into this transfer in March of 2024, after members of Parliament learned that the correctional facility had a hockey rink, a tennis court, and weight rooms for its inmates. The Commissioner of Correctional Service of Canada, Ann Kelly, said the transfer was sound, but it still left people with questions about, quote, sadistic murderers being left to enjoy freedoms and luxuries of lower security prisons.

Yeah, bro, I'm sorry. No fucking hockey. If you're a serial killer, like, and this.

This man who's so particularly craven and, like, he was a serial rapist and then he became a ser. Serial killer. He is an example of how bad it can be if you don't tend to these people in some way. And you're gonna be like, yep, let's transfer him to medium security.

And if I lived in that town where the medium security person was, I would be terrified. He is still a threat.

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgarra]

You know, like, it's just.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I can't imagine it's so crazy, but I. I still boggles my mind that.

[Karen Kilgarra]

That she's just disappeared into society, you know, like, that boggles my mind too. But what are you going to do?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, okay. You know what we're going to do? We're going to get into your story. About the trial of Steven Truscott. It's easy to make your drive amazing with reclining seats that melt the tension away, thoughtful tech and charging ports that keep every device powered.

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgarra]

Goodbye.

This is the story of the murder of Lynn Harper by Ann and this case of Stephen Truscott. Truscott. Truscott. Thank you. Sorry, I'm Nerp.

Okay, what is it?

Truscott. Truscott. Truscott, the podcast I listen to. Thank you guys. All right, so on the evening, June 9, 1959, small town of Clinton.

Represent. Represent Clinton all. Always.

Yeah, we love Clinton.

We love it.

Located near Lake Huron, about 200 km.

How far is that?

I fucking believe.

No idea.

It's 200 km west of Toronto. The parents of 12 year old Cheryl Lynn. So we're gonna call her Lynn Harper, began to worry when their daughter didn't come home. After her girl Kids guides meeting around 11:20 that night, her father, who's an officer on the Clinton base, reported her missing. It's like a base town. Earlier that evening, around 7:00pm Stephen Truscott. Truscott.

Fuck.

Lynn's. So he. Stephen is Lynn's 14 year old classmate. He'd given Lynn a ride home on the handlebars of his bicycle. Not home, sorry. He'd given Lynn a ride on the handlebar's bicycle. And he's questioned by police because he was the last person to see her alive. And he said he took her to the intersection of country road and Highway 8. He left her there, she started to bike. He started to bike away, stopped on a bridge, turned around and saw her get into a gray 1959 Chevrolet with an out of province license plate. I know, sorry.

Sorry.

I know. Kilometers. And that there was a lot of chrome on the car. So he sees her leaving in this car and getting into it. He bikes on. And two days later, on the afternoon of June 11, searchers discover Lynn's body. A few tree branches partially covering her remains. And it's in a nearby farm woodlot just off at tractor trail. It's a lightly wooded area known as Lawson's Bush on the outskirts of Clinton. It's just a little, you know, tree foresty area. Lynn had been raped and strangled with her own blouse. So Stephen becomes the immediate and only suspect.

The 14 year old.

Yeah, because he was the last person to see her. He said he had dropped her off and they, the parents said that she's not someone who would normally hitchhike. So they didn't believe him. And within two days of an investigation on June 12th, 1959, Stephen's taken into custody. And after about 10 hours of investigation at 2:30 in the morning, Stephen's charged with first degree murder of Lynn Harper. 14 year old Stephen. It's then decided, excuse me, that Steven should stand trial as an adult. Which means he could potentially be sentenced to either life in prison or execution. The prosecution case is based on the fact that. So because Lynn wouldn't hitchhike, they allege that Stephen never even made it to drop her off and in fact just had turned off into Lawson's bush, sexually assaulted her before killing her. So a fucking. There's a ton of witnesses saying the whereabouts, what they saw, when they saw them, that are children, it's like 11 year old schoolmates, 14 year old kids. And so both sides, the prosecution and the defense call these witnesses to say what they saw. So of course on the prosecution side they're saying that the kid who was walking home down the exact road never saw them ride their bike past, that kids who were hanging out at the bridge never saw them and, or saw Stephen alone. And so one girl, little girl claimed that she was supposed to meet herself, meet him in the bush at the time that Lynn was allegedly killed. So he was supposed to be there anyways and probably was there is what she said.

Now did they do any kind of questioning of these children where they said are any of you liars, are any of your pants currently on fire? Because that sounds like that grammar school bullshit where you're like, when you play telephone it always ends up Dolly Parton where you're just like that's not what I said.

It's just so crazy because there's this really great documentary about it that I'll get to. But they talk to some of the kids and it's just like, remember this shit, these little kids are like, you know, before she was found, they're like

[Georgia Hardstark]

I saw Lynn and this was what happened.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Or I saw Steven and you get really excited, and you want to be part of it, because to. You're trying 12 and it's, you know, or 47.

Either way, it's fun to be part of things.

Right? Or say, like, you know, just get excited and spread rumors. Then the police come and talk to you and say, we heard you said this. And they can't be like, no, I lied and made that up. You just go with it.

You go with it.

Little kids then also believe themselves these. You know, they convince themselves that this is what they saw, and they know

they'll get in trouble if they are lying. And then it just. You. You're like, well, the solution to that is lie more.

Right.

That's always the thing.

My Spanx have rolled down to about.

Let's see.

Like, they've done it in a way that's now making me look worse. You know what I mean?

Yep.

It's like a little. It's just pushing my gut back here and over the top of the Spanx in a way that.

Did you know that's the new look? That's a hot look in Milan right now. Yes.

Can I ask you. This might be the problem. It might be user error, because I'm always like, well, buying Spanx. I should buy them in a size too small, because then they'll do what they're supposed to do. Girl, that's not what you're supposed to do.

No.

Okay, well, then it's user error. Apologies to Spanx. You guys are doing a great job.

The best way to do it is you get the Spanx that come. They're turtleneck Spanx. They just come right up here. God damn, they work so good.

This is what I get for buying Spanx in a Spanx Airport store. Literally, it's like, you know, you used to roll your socks down as a kid. Yep. That's what's happening to my space.

Well, up until this point, though, you were really holding your face together. Well, I feel like you were like, really. Your core was engaged, and you were just, like, trying to make it work.

Thank you. Yeah, okay. I was there.

But still, I also like to know the personal stuff.

Yeah. I'm not gonna lie about my gut situation.

I mean, you can't.

I can't.

I want to lie about my gut

situation every day, and I just myself.

It's just how it is, you know? Also, I mean, if we're gonna be honest, part of my little half sock that I'm wearing in these is just rolled down, and it's now almost all the way to my chest.

Do your socks match all the way?

Yeah.

Oh, shit. Look, that's the most uncomfortable. Both of us need a minute to fix our situations.

Jesus. Also, I'm covered in glue.

Listen, someone. I brought this rug from home, as I said.

Can you close the curtain?

It's not working out. Are you humiliated? There's so many people. And that's where the humor comes in of this podcast. Or does it?

Or does it.

How you doing?

Listen, I leave.

Oh, fuck.

I walk out through the house. God damn it.

With your microphone?

Yes. Swearing into the microphone the whole time.

Okay, so part of. Okay, so part of their big theory, the prosecutions. And really what seems to have turned the case and made it the strongest was. Okay, so the theory was that Stephen never dropped Lynn off, as he claimed. And actually between 7 and 7:45 is when he came killed her. So this time frame is super important because pathologist John Peniston sure smelled spelled. Smelled spelled. Penis tan.

Okay. Why don't you just pronounce it that way then? It's fun.

I mean, listen, look, I can't. I haven't grown up.

Also, as.

What? Say it. Do it. Go.

I don't want to go down the long slide of penis tan jokes. I just feel like.

How many are there?

I've got about 47 in the chamber right now.

I'm not familiar.

No, no.

So he. Pathologist John Penniston conducted the autopsy of Lynn. He testified that. So he does the thing where he figures out what she's eaten by knowing when. How much food has been digested when she died. So he said between 7:15 and 7:45 because of the food that she had eaten. That's when she died. That's his exact time, which even by today's standards is fucking insane. You can't do that.

You can't figure that out. You mean that exactly.

Absolutely not.

Okay.

It's kind of one of those bunk science things now, like blood spatter and all this.

It feels like everything's bunked. I know.

I know.

They're taking it all away from us. What happened to my fibers? God, I love. I love when they find a fiber. And then they're like this cat hair fiber matches this cat hair fiber.

Cat hair fibers.

I can lock them up.

The red fibers, the fucking green carpet in his apartment. Okay? Da, da, da, da, da. They also had shoe prints near the body, and they say they seemed to match Steven's, but they hadn't taken any measurements or plaster casts of it.

Hey, why bother? Just execute the 14 year old and get on with it.

Jesus Christ.

Fuck.

That's gonna be our tagline. Just execute.

The shirts just get worse and worse with these two. I can't wear that to Thanksgiving.

Then the tattoos start happening. This is our job.

I know, it's crazy. So good.

I used to eat cupcakes for a living on tv. Now. Now this. It's pretty awesome.

Okay, the thing is, we don't even do it right.

Well, who said I ate cupcakes, right?

Were you one of those ones that like, you bit and spit immediately?

No, I ate the whole thing with the wrapper on it. Is that right?

Goat? You just keep chewing spit. Oh, sorry.

Okay. Professionals.

Professionals.

As for the defense, they had their own child witnesses, of course.

Did you know? Sorry, I just heard about this recently. Did you know at the end of World War II, Hitler had a child army that was fighting people?

No.

Did I dream that?

No.

I think because so many of the men of age were dead and they had lost so many lives, they were sending out, you know, like the Hitler Youth where they were really into exercising in the 30s and they were just like, put on a coat and grab a gun. Now you're going out there. Fuck. Pretty sure. Watch the History Channel. It's not my. It's not my area. Okay, sorry, go ahead.

I just love the phrase child witness. Like, I'm already like, no, I don't need that. I don't need that witness.

And then I was at the bridge and. Get out of here.

So they, this, these child witnesses said that they had been on. Underneath the bridge and actually had seen Stephen on the bridge. And at first the prosecution was like, no way you could have seen him from that far away. And then they went and. And we're like, oh, I see how you could have seen him from that far away.

Now it all makes perfect sense.

It all makes perfect sense. Yet still, we might execute you. Don't worry about it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgarra]

And so that all checked out. Witnesses also noted that Steven, who met his friends at. By 8 o', clock, seemed totally normal when they saw him. And no one had seen Stephen entering or leaving the wooded area where Lynn was killed. Okay, so despite all of this, on September 30, 1959, after a trial that led lasted 15 days, the jury found Stephen guilty.

What?

At that time.

And you know how they announced it?

How?

It was like my mother.

What if there was a. A child judge?

Yeah, it's like Bugsy malone from the 80s. It's just children.

Oh my God.

Sorry.

No, never be. I mean, I start now. I mean us, not you, Karen. Okay. So the criminal code required that a death sentence be imposed for murder. So the trial judge. Imagine being 14. The judge says to you, you're gonna die by hanging.

What?

Death by hanging. He appealed his conviction unanimously, dismissed the appeal. So then they commute it to just life in prison. So Stephen spends a decade in prison and then he's paroled in October 21, 1969 at age 24. So he gets out and immediately gets drafted into Vietnam.

Sorry,

that would be a bummer.

Sorry, sorry. I'm just running bad scenarios in my head at all times. I'm sorry. I mean, that's so fucked. It's his whole life. You go to jail when you're 14 and you get out when you're 24.

I know, but Lynn. Lynn died at 12. It's so hard. And then what if he.

Okay, okay.

And I don't know.

I know. None of us know.

And every. I think that all of Canada is like. It's like half and half. Who believes what happened? That he did it or he didn't do it. Right.

We're going to take a poll off.

Yeah, yeah. You have a little piece of paper under your chair. Yes or no?

Next to the gun.

All we want to know is yes. Don't mistake the two. Yes, please, whatever you do. I know you guys aren't familiar with guns.

They're not pens.

So Stephen goes, lives under an assumed name, shuns all publicity for three decades. He marries, has three children. Children. Then in a 2000 episode of the Fifth Estate, which is a really fucking good show. I somehow knew that you guys would love it because every article I read about this was like. The Fifth Estate. The Fifth Estate. And it was fucking.

It's a Canadian show.

Yeah. And so he finally breaks his silence and he's on the whole show, like narrate, telling everyone what happened, telling the stuff. And all these, like the kid witnesses are interviewed as adult witnesses.

They're still kids. It's all Benjamin Button situation.

Or there's one of the adults, like. And then I found like a 49 year old man.

Jerry, focus please. You have to look into the camera. We told you seven times, stop eating Pez. Do you have candy?

Okay, so Fifth Estates investigation highlights serious problems with forensic evidence and show that police were too hasty in laying charges in two days.

Two days.

Yeah. So by 2006, around this time, the scientists are like, wait a minute, we don't know. Even now, we don't know when food breaks down in the Stomach. Because it's based on so many things. Age, gender, diet, stress level, all these things. So one of the forensic dudes was like, really? All we can tell is what they ate. That's all we use this for at this point. So they don't even use it. And then it can be. So Mr. Penis Tan. What? What?

All of that. And you landed at penis tan.

Well, that's where everyone wants to land, really. So years later, in like the 60s, penis tan tell says, yeah, I was probably wrong about that. It could have been as much as two hours later when she actually. Dude, I know. Get it together. And then other. So then these days they examine the original evidence and conclude that Lynn may have died as late as 24 hours after being with Stephen. So it's a big window. We don't use that science anymore. So. And originally, I don't want to keep saying penis dens. I know, it's an old joke.

No, it's right. At this point, you're forced.

I mean, in this. So Dr. Penniston originally offered two different times. Originally he was like. Like, could have been this time, could have been that time. And then it wasn't until they figured out when Stephen would have killed her that he settled on that time frame too. And it seems like he was like, had a change of heart at some point about not being a horrible person and came back.

It sounds like he's just as suggestible as those child witnesses.

He was a child forensic pathologist.

Shit. They should not let 8 year olds be forensic pathologists anymore.

Never again.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Doogie.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Hi. You ruined it.

No.

Okay. After. So Truscott's always maintained his innocence. He. Okay, in prison, he voluntarily submits to doing prison psychiatric probes, including truth serum and lsd.

Wow.

Which I'm like, I'll do that too.

I mean, if you're in prison. Hell, yes.

But he was so adamant. I mean, think of it. This is not a time when people were stoked about doing drugs. Well, as far as he knew, the 60s, right. They like not mystery drugs. Right? Yeah, but he was like. They were like, you know, if we give this to you and you actually did. Did stuff. I don't know if you guys have been on acid before, but you're going to talk about it and you're going

to laugh about it.

Yeah. And you're a monster.

And it won't end for like 12 hours. It's so irritating.

And you're in prison and you're in prison acid. Bummer.

The last time. Look, don't do Acid. It's so lame. But the last time I did it, long ago, I was laying in bed and I couldn't sleep. All my friends were asleep. All the fun had ended hours before. And I was laying in bed looking at spinning goofy faces. How fucking hacky.

Is that the cute mouse? Yes.

The dog.

What a bummer. Yes. You're like, can I at least see something cool?

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's spinning.

[Karen Kilgarra]

And I was like, my arms crossed, like, I'm so lame.

I love that you're even. You're a critic of your own fucking vision. Lame. Stupid, stupid.

This is too commercial. Where's the local art that gets.

Oh, my God.

Basically, he's like, I don't fucking do it. Give me any drug you want.

Give me all the acid and I won't fucking. Does sodium pen. Does menthol really work? That's the truth serum, right?

It does on me.

Let's find out right now. And then I take it and it's a.

It's acid.

Oops, it's acid. Oh, I skipped the book. Okay. Blah, blah, blah. Okay. Da, da, da, da, da. Sorry, I already said da da da da. So association in Defense of the Wrongly Convicted. They work to get federal justice ministers minister to reopen the case. And on August 28, 2007, 48 years after the original trial, the Ontario Court of Appeal unanimously overturns Stephen's conviction, declaring the case a miscarriage of justice. Half the crowd is applauding.

Half the crowd is not applauding. Yep, loudly.

I have a really great ear for how many people are applauding at once. And I can tell it's 1500.

Was it 15? Not 1503.

Nope. Oh, but it was actually 4. 14. Like, 98. Because that couple got in a fight and didn't come.

Yeah, they never made it.

They couldn't make it there.

He was like, murder isn't funny.

She's like, you don't get it. They also talk about cats. Okay. Miscarriage of justice. And. Okay, this is a really big point of contention for the people who. The other 1498 people. Another couple got in a fight, too. On your side, Stevens awarded 6.5 million in compensation.

Holy shit.

Yeah. And so clearly people are pissed about that. Who believe he did it.

Oh, yeah.

As well as the fact that, you know, it's given. Okay, okay, okay. So the possibility of other suspects weren't looked into. And that's one of the reasons he got all that money. So two of the other suspects. So Sergeant Barry Rule wrote a book called A Viable Suspect and He zeroed in on this dude who was a traveling salesman, and he was considered a person of interest in other violent cases. And he had a ton of connections, including similarities in the car. That. For fuck's sake. That scared the shit out of me.

That was very jarring.

Yeah. Stephen, stop it. Stop rubbing your mustache on a microphone. I'm sorry, Stephen. That was particularly harsh. I didn't mean. I didn't mean it.

It really wasn't.

Oh, was it?

Do you hear anything I'm saying? I screamed at our audience last night. I told the millennials. I said the word stupefied. I said the word stupefied, and like, easily 100 children yelled back, harry Potter.

I still don't think that's what they were saying. It was what they were saying. Are you fucking kidding me?

Just because then when I said, are you yelling Harry Potter? They all cheered. And then I was like, that's why people hate millennials.

That's the dumbest thing I've ever.

It was fucking dumb.

Do they know stupefied was a word before Harry Potter?

Whoa.

I knew that was gonna happen. Oh, my God. Harry Potter's here. He's so mad. Expecto. Stupefied. Oh, my God. It's okay. Yes.

My rug is ruined.

Just my rug. It's all fired. You just flung water at my face.

Did I realize this thing is falling apart?

It's okay. I've actually spilled it on myself multiple times tonight. I knew that was gonna happen. I just thought it would be me. Historically speaking, that's kind of me. Shit. My thing.

That was. I'm stealing your bitch.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can you not.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Okay, the car.

Focus.

Get it together. The car that this dude. And he gave a fake name for the dude because he's dead and he didn't want to.

The traveling salesman.

Yeah.

Okay.

The car was similar. He owned a 1959 Chevy Bel Air and the same. He was in this area the evening Lynn went missing. He also said he would have known the Clinton area because he was a traveling salesman and similar shoe. Shoe size. So he had. He. He died before the investigation. And then. Sorry. Okay. There was a farmer who owned the property where Lynn's body was found. And he said he saw a strange car parked near his fence the night of the girl going. Of Lynn going missing. And the officer on duty who was near the Royal Canadian Air Force Base, wasn't interested. And he also testified that the girl who said that Stephen was supposed to meet her at the bush came to her later before the trial and said, can you tell them the time you keep telling them you saw the car, can you change that to an hour before? She's 12. So she's like, can you do me a favor?

Like why?

Because she.

She wanted to fit with hers.

Yeah. And this grown man was like, no one. I'm gonna go tell on you.

She's like, well, then you're not invited to my birthday party.

It's fucking bananas. Another suspect. So there was an Air Force sergeant named Alexander Kalachuk. He was a heavy drinker, history of sexual offenses, lived with an attorney. 20 minute drive at the base. And Steven and Lynn both lived at the base. About three weeks before Lynn's murder, he had tried to lure a 10 year old girl into his car. I think a couple towns over in the mid-60s, files uncovered that detailed that he had been psychologically evaluated as a sexual predator and potential killer.

Wow.

And he had two counts of indecent exposure on record before ever even arriving again. Clinton.

Wow.

Okay.

He was waving it all around.

Yeah. Swiss cheese.

Swiss cheese.

Pervert. I'm surprised so many people remember that incredible story.

The best story of all time. For those of you who don't know, there's a man somewhere in the east coast that likes to get into his car, not wear pants, hold up a piece of Swiss cheese and trick women into looking at it. And then he's jerking off behind it.

We're not tricking you guys, right? The people who don't know this story. We're not tricking you.

This is real. There's pictures of him doing it.

Pictures. And there's people who wear Halloween costumes of this man.

Look it all up. This is our gift to you for laying out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You better call us insensitive.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Yeah, I was just fucking. You were a nurse for Halloween. Wow. I got real angry at this.

I know you were mad.

Listen, Look.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right.

[Karen Kilgarra]

And then there was also another man, electrician with a conviction for rape, who worked regularly at the base and knew the Harpers. Lynn's family. Okay, so tons of choices. Tons of choices. Take a couple extra days before.

I mean, just mull it over for one second.

Yeah. So. Okay. Oh, no. Okay. But here's the thing. Lynn's family, this poor family who's been through so much, including all these, this stuff with Steven and still haven't found the gotten justice. They still believe that Stephen was the murderer. And they also never told their aging father about the verdict and the money because they were like he couldn't handle it.

Yeah, of course not.

So that would be horrible. That's the Murder of Lynn Harper. Oh, I have a photo of him and her as kids.

Oh, really?

Or is that too much? Well, I guess Steven's deciding. That's Steven.

That's him.

Yeah.

He kind of looks like an adult.

Yeah, he's a big kid for a 14 year old. And then let's look at Lynn. Oh, little baby. So that's that.

Wow, that's.

Thanks.

I hope to God. I mean, like, these days it's very likely that someone can start a podcast where they're like, I'd like to know what happened. And then they could actually figure it out. Like people are doing that all the time now. Yeah, that'd be amazing. For sure someone did that.

It's like authors being like, yeah, that was us until 10 years ago, you fucking asshole podcasters.

They're like, would you just read off that paper? That's right.

And we're like, start a podcast and maybe you can then start know doesn't not that hard.

I just want to know the answer. I know I hate those kinds of things.

I know that's why I do them is because I hate them and I love them. You know, I.

It's like a puzzle.

Cuz I'm. Yeah. Oh, it's all right. It's clear. I almost said wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, we're back. Are there updates for the story?

There are a couple. In the 2020 film, Marleene tells the story of Steven's case and how his wife, Mar, works tirelessly to clear his name. And then in 2024, Canadian author and Nobel laureate Alice Monroe wondered that her husband could have possibly been involved in Lynn's murder. This came about amid the revelation that

[Karen Kilgarra]

her husband had sexually abused her daughter,

[Georgia Hardstark]

his stepdaughter, and that Alice had known about it. And then, most importantly, Buried Bones covered this case, which you know, is just going to be incredible.

[Karen Kilgarra]

It's an episode called Bugged that came

[Georgia Hardstark]

out on August 30, 2023. So definitely go check that out for a deeper dive, a smarter dive.

I actually downloaded that episode because I so want to hear the details. This is the one of the craziest cases, like, of all time. And I can't wait to hear those

[Karen Kilgarra]

guys pick it apart.

Same.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, we're gonna go back now to hear a hometown from the audience.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Hey, do we have time for a.

I think we do.

Hometown murder.

I do, don't we? Will you look up, make sure Vince isn't like, waving at us? Because I can't see.

Are you okay? Can I just flash you on my underwear? Okay, wait, let me pick someone out.

We just want to hear a hometown murder. Now, listen, here's some rules.

Rules.

We've learned this over the years. You have to listen. You can't read off a piece of paper. You have to tell it like it actually happened to you. You can't be super drunk. You can be lightly drunk, but you can't be, like, slurry or pausey drunk where, like, it's uncomfortable. Thanksgiving drunk. We can't have that. It's fun if you have, like, a fun personality. But you don't have to have a huge personality. We prefer you don't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You know what?

[Karen Kilgarra]

We've run out of time.

Okay, bye, you guys.

All right, and now I'm picking, and I'm scared, you guys. Listen, Karen's letting me. I hear you. Karen's letting me pick, and so don't this up for me is all I'm asking.

Don't wave your arm if you just got half a game.

We never have a dude. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you. Sorry. We're having a dude. Fix your sock.

Oh, he's pointing.

Oh, he's got a big. Stephen's going.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Thank you, Stephen.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Oh, no.

Hi.

What's your name?

[Audience Member / Guest]

I'm Sean.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Don't ruin this for me, Sean.

[Audience Member / Guest]

I won't.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Nice to meet you.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Nice to meet you, too.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Okay, Take center stage.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Center stage.

[Karen Kilgarra]

All right, here.

Say hello to everyone.

[Audience Member / Guest]

I'm Sean.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Hold on, we're gonna.

[Audience Member / Guest]

All right.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Where are you from?

[Audience Member / Guest]

I. I am from Bala Muskoka. Or, like, Bala, Ontario? Muskoka.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Awesome.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Where is it?

[Karen Kilgarra]

On the mitten.

Okay. Okay.

[Audience Member / Guest]

All right. So it's about. Yeah. 200 kilometers north, Toronto.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Okay.

[Audience Member / Guest]

All right. All right. So I don't actually remember the names of these people.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Oh, Jesus.

Well, they are in the right place.

Perfect.

[Audience Member / Guest]

All right. So it involves a man from Bracebridge, Ontario. Perfect. So he moves to Toronto and he's a bodybuilder. And he wants to be, like, a fitness instructor and everything. And then he meets this high school dropout, exotic dancer, drug dealer.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Yes.

Said very well.

We're off to a great start.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Good combination.

[Karen Kilgarra]

We go.

[Audience Member / Guest]

And so they hit it off, they get together, and then they start partying like there's no tomorrow. Cocaine everywhere. Just great times all around.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Well, times. Okay.

[Audience Member / Guest]

They end up actually fighting so much after a little while that they get kicked out of multiple apartments. And then he eventually gets arrested or up on charges for something. So he does the best thing he can do and he skips town to go and live with Mom. And dad. And he brings the woman with her. The mom and dad don't like him or don't like her. They kind of like him.

[Karen Kilgarra]

They don't like the exotic dancer, drug dealer. Okay.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Yeah, I know. Go figure. So from there, after a little while, they get their own place and then they get kicked out and a bunch of other places. It was actually so bad, they're fighting that a landlord gave them 900 doll to move out.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Fuck. That's never happened in the history of apartments.

No, I'm gonna try that next time I want to break a lease.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Good luck with that.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Yeah,

[Audience Member / Guest]

they actually ended up having a kid at this point. Like I said, they were fighting. She actually got charged with assault on him because he threatened to call a child services because she was apparently a bad mother.

[Karen Kilgarra]

So his fatherhood had nothing to do with it?

[Audience Member / Guest]

No. Okay. Nothing. Okay. So she starts getting bored of him, starts sleeping around, and then actually develops a plan to move. But they were behind on rent so much that he actually had to go to court and, like, do a bunch of legal stuff. So she got her shit together and planned to move out on the day that she was planning to leave, he had to go to court, but he came home early, caught her, and they got fighting, obviously, as they do. As they do. And what ended up happening was he ended up hitting her in the head about three or four times. After the first time, she actually tried to block the blows and ended up breaking some of her hand bones. So from there she's obviously dead after the fourth or fifth blow.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Oh, okay, right.

[Audience Member / Guest]

I'm sorry. Spoiler alert. She dies.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Shit.

[Audience Member / Guest]

So he does what any rational person would do is he goes to Home Depot and buys four five gallon drum buckets. Buckets and matching lids. And now he's working for a construction company at this point. So he goes out, puts the body in the trunk with the four bins and drives out to a former customer's place. It's a cottage. No one's around. It's March, I believe, at this time, so, yeah, no one's around. Cuts up the body, puts in the pails, calls a friend, says, hey, man, I gotta get out of my place. Can I store some stuff in your storage? Locke,

[Karen Kilgarra]

can I store some buckets?

Don't worry, the lids match.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Don't worry. It gets worse.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Always.

Always.

[Audience Member / Guest]

So while he's working on another job at a different cottage with the guy, he ends up sneakily building a crate in which to store these four buckets from there. So over the course of the Time he builds this crate, puts the buckets in, seals it up, leaves. Three years later, the crate was noticed by the homeowner.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Oh my God. Where was it? In the backyard?

[Audience Member / Guest]

No, no, like so it was like, it was kind of like over. So there's a porch kind of thing and there was like a crawl space.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Yeah.

So it's like next to the house. In the house?

[Audience Member / Guest]

No, it was under the house. Under the porch.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Oh, he. So he was working on the house and he was like, oh, yeah, I fixed that. I fixed that thing.

[Audience Member / Guest]

And you need me to fix.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Puts a dead body into the house, essentially. So you're like, yeah, I'm telling you.

[Audience Member / Guest]

That's what I'm saying. So, yeah, like I said, three years later, the homeowner knows this crate and he asks his handyman around that works around the place. Hey, what's this crate doing? He's like, I don't know. Cracks it open and smell of death.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Uh huh.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Uh, yeah. Oh my God.

[Karen Kilgarra]

So who was.

Please right now say I'm that handyman.

Yeah.

Even if you have to lie, it's the best ending of all time.

[Audience Member / Guest]

I'm that handyman.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Yes.

[Audience Member / Guest]

No, no. So he got really stupid with. Because he said the guy that killed his girlfriend, he actually used her cell phone for calls, sold her clothes because he did initially say that she just ran away. So they eventually tracked back to him and he was convicted. In May 2013, he got charged with second degree murder. So that's automatic death or not death. Sorry, it should be automatic life in prison with chance of parole after 17 years. So he's eligible parole in 2030.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Wow.

Well, good. Wow.

[Audience Member / Guest]

So that's.

[Karen Kilgarra]

That was great.

That's my home.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Damn Murder.

[Karen Kilgarra]

That was amazing.

[Audience Member / Guest]

Now you don't have to read that one because I emailed it to you.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Thank you so much.

That was great.

Great job. Yes. That's how you tell a hometown murder. You are going to just take your time and tell it. I'm just kidding. I'm giving you shit.

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, we're back. This episode originally was titled Live at the Sony center in Toronto for reasons that are obvious.

But if we were naming it today based on something from the show.

[Karen Kilgarra]

I love this one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Maybe we would call it fun to panic.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Too early to panic.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But it would be fun to panic.

[Karen Kilgarra]

But it would be.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We. We'd have a good time with it. Or my description of American Kit Kats. A flat brown candle.

[Karen Kilgarra]

So gross.

So gross.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And of course, expecto stupefy when you

[Karen Kilgarra]

cast your Harry Potter spell. Hilarious. So good.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, well, that was another episode of Rewind from all the way back in 2017. Thank you guys for listening. Let's say goodbye from the Sony center back in 2017.

[Karen Kilgarra]

This has been really incredible. I mean, it really is so fun that it's so cool that we get to do this exact thing and you want to come and see us do it live. It's ridiculous.

It really is. We're lucky. We fucking love Canada. You guys are all so supportive of us from the very beginning.

Thanks for coming out. Thanks for getting the tickets. Thanks for making the effort. Thanks for listening for as long. Thanks for listening so long that you know I fucked up. Paul Bernardo. Thank you.

I miss the world's famous cheese guy, right? Thank you guys.

So stay sexy and don't get murdered.

Elvis.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgarra]

Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Karen Kilgarra]

Hey everyone. Check out this guy and his bird.

What is this, your first date?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, no. We help people customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual together. We're married. Me to a human him to a bird.

[Karen Kilgarra]

Yeah, the bird looks out of your league anyways.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Only pay for what you [e-mail].

[Karen Kilgarra]

liberty. Liberty.

Liberty.

Liberty.