Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 95: Gesus

Summary

My Favorite Murder: Rewind with Karen & Georgia – 95: Gesus

Published: May 6, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this light-hearted and nostalgic “Rewind” episode, Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark revisit and dissect one of their early classic episodes, “Episode 95: Gesus” (original air date: November 16, 2017). They recap memorable live show moments, share personal anecdotes from touring, update listeners on previously discussed murders and disappearances, and feature a powerful “Good Things” segment with survivor Jennifer Maury Caldwell. The overall tone blends humor, warmth, and genuine empathy, as Karen and Georgia reflect on stories that have stuck with them—and their audience—over the years.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Revisiting Live Tour Stories & MFM Culture

• Texas Tour Memories ([02:21–09:04])

  • Karen & Georgia reminisce about touring Texas, from being gifted “moth cookies”—humorously referencing Karen’s moth phobia—to discovering the much-loved Buc-ee’s “Beaver Nuggets,” described as “essentially crack cocaine dipped in fucking maple sugar or some shit” (Karen, [08:25]).
  • They share the slightly unnerving experience of receiving surprise gifts at their hotel rooms and their reflexive suspicion (“Someone knows where I’m staying now, and this is creepy and scary,” Georgia, [05:30]).
  • Georgia recounts the strange-but-funny meet-and-greet moment when a listener exclaimed, “My sister’s dying,” only to clarify she meant her sister was jealous for missing the show—leading to accidental, nervous laughter ([09:35–11:24]).

• Show Structure Talk: Who Should Go First? ([21:50–23:25])

  • The hosts discuss the importance of episode structure, agreeing that the more chilling or disturbing story should go first, so a lighter or more uplifting tale can end the show on a brighter note. “Maybe when one of us knows we're doing a murder, our story is fucking horrific. And we can tell the other person, like, hey, this isn't a closer” (Karen, [23:06]).

2. Corrections & Updates

• Terri Hoffman Correction ([11:24–12:02])

  • Karen corrects an earlier claim about cult leader Terri Hoffman’s death, clarifying she actually died in 2015, not 1997.

• “Wind River” Director Mix-Up ([12:46–13:47])

  • Karen acknowledges mistakenly referring to Taylor Sheridan (director of “Wind River”) as a woman, emphasizing the importance of accuracy and owning mistakes.
  • “I thought I remembered a female woman...and so I kind of really combined it all in my mind anyway.” ([13:26–13:44])

3. Infamous True Crime Stories: Recap & Reflections

A. The Amish Serial Killer: Eli Stutzman

[Main Segment: 31:00–59:13]

• Background – Amish Subculture ([32:59–36:51])

  • Karen explains the “Old Order” Swartzentruber Amish, who avoid modern technology, dress plainly, and reject “worldly” vanity—even shunning buttons on clothing.
  • “They speak Pennsylvania German... They don’t fellowship or intermarry with more liberal Amish orders.” (Karen, [33:12])
  • Humor interjects: “They can't listen and tell us what we got wrong” (Georgia, [34:35]).

• The Crime Story

  • Ida and Eli’s Courtship ([36:53–39:01])
    • Ida falls for the rebellious Eli, who catches attention for flouting Amish norms (even talking in church!).
  • Hidden Life & Tragedy ([39:04–44:48])
    • After a stint away, Eli returns, marries Ida, and they have a son, Danny. A barn fire (allegedly caused by a lightning strike) leads to Ida’s suspicious, sudden death, later ruled a cardiac event—based only on Eli’s claim of fragile health.
    • “He apologizes, he repents. They get married on Christmas 1975.” (Karen, [41:17])
  • Post-Ida: Transformation and Downfall ([44:49–47:23])
    • Eli rapidly installs electricity in the house, flouts Amish norms, and begins openly pursuing relationships via personal ads (notably: “Amish man, muscular, 30s...” [44:48]).
    • Parties with gay Amish and “English” men (i.e., non-Amish) are held in the barn, leading to scandal.
  • Escalating Violence ([47:23–56:42])
    • After moving to Austin, Eli hires Glenn Pritchard, who is later found murdered. Under investigation, Eli flees, eventually abandoning a young Danny with acquaintances.
    • Danny’s body is found—unidentified for years as “Little Boy Blue”—after Eli sends deceitful letters to family claiming Danny is alive.
    • The chilling theory: Eli, fearing Danny witnessed a murder, smothered his own son.
    • Karen: “He just would kill anybody that got in the way of what he wanted to do in his life.” ([57:56])
  • Aftermath & Justice ([57:21–58:50])
    • Eli is convicted—paroled in 2002, dies by suicide in 2007.
    • Book recommendations for true crime lovers: “Abandoned Prayers” & “The Amish: Unraveling the Lies, Secrets, and Conspiracy that Let a Killer Go Free” by Greg Olsen. ([59:13])

B. Famous Missing Persons Cases

Georgia shares three infamous disappearances, highlighting the haunting and unresolved nature of these cases.

1. The Springfield Three: A Triple Disappearance ([62:09–70:20])

• Story Overview
  • In 1992, two recent high school graduates (Suzie Streeter and Stacy McCall) and Suzie’s mother (Cheryl Levitt) vanish from their Missouri home.
  • The only odd clues: an agitated dog locked in the bathroom, purses and property left behind, and a shattered porch light ([64:46]).
  • Multiple people (including a concerned mother) enter the house before police arrive, possibly disturbing evidence. A mysterious, lascivious phone call and erased answering machine message add to the intrigue ([65:15–66:19]).
• Theories & Leads
  • Ground-penetrating radar finds anomalies beneath a parking garage, but police don’t excavate; possible suspect Robert Cox claims to know their fate, but credibility is dubious ([69:17–70:12]).
  • Georgia: “As of today, a couple tips a month still come in, but no one knows what happened to this Springfield Three.” ([70:05])

2. The Disappearance of Asha Degree ([70:22–77:54])

• Factual Summary
  • In 2000, 9-year-old Asha leaves her home in Shelby, North Carolina, in the dead of night with a packed book bag. Multiple drivers see her walking alone in a rainstorm ([71:31–72:07]).
  • Days later, her belongings are found in a shed; 18 months later, her backpack turns up 26 miles away, wrapped in a plastic bag ([74:51]).
• Mystery Deepens
  • No evidence of family dysfunction or online contacts exists. A later witness recalls seeing a girl matching her description getting into a green car.
• Reflections
  • Georgia: “Why would a kid run away in a raging storm? ...That doesn't seem normal.” ([74:07])
  • Ongoing hope for closure due to persistent community and Reddit-led attention ([91:24–92:13]).

3. Bobby Dunbar: The Real-Life Changeling ([77:58–90:44])

• Case Overview
  • In 1912, four-year-old Bobby disappears on a family outing. Eight months later, a boy matching his description is found with a handyman in Mississippi. A mother's claim clashes with that of another woman, Julia Anderson, who insists the boy is her son, Bruce.
• Family & Media Confusion
  • In a true-life echo of “The Changeling,” emotional bias and social standing skew the investigation. The boy grows up as Bobby Dunbar—until DNA testing decades later reveals he wasn’t the Dunbars’ son ([88:00]).
  • Stunning conclusion: “The test showed that the kid raised as Bobby Dunbar was 100% not related to the Dunbars.” (Georgia, [88:00])
• Recommendation
  • Georgia highly recommends the “This American Life” episode about the case: “Ghost of Bobby Dunbar” ([89:16]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I find, and I’ve already bragged that I’m sound sensitive, I find people’s voices to be a real make or break. And knowing that a person who had that voice...was also a psychotic killer who beheaded his own mother, it’d be a hard break for you.” — Karen ([16:07–16:18]), on serial killer Ed Kemper as an audiobook narrator
• “He apologizes, he repents. They get married on Christmas 1975.” — Karen ([41:17]), on Eli Stutzman’s return
• “He just would kill anybody that got in the way of what he wanted to do in his life.” — Karen ([57:56]), on Eli Stutzman's sociopathic drive
• “I wanted to have been kidnapped by my parents and they weren’t really my parents...Why would they—because it’s just like, exciting!” — Georgia ([17:29–17:40]), on childhood VC Andrews-fueled fantasies
• “Sometimes you can only choose: cry or laugh. Pick one. Let’s laugh.” — Jennifer Maury Caldwell, survivor, during the Dallas Live Show ([101:53]), sharing wisdom on coping with trauma

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Special Segment: The Dallas Live Show & Survivor Jennifer Maury Caldwell

“Good Things of the Week” — [92:13–103:34]

• Karen recounts emailing with Jennifer, whose harrowing “I Survived” story was once featured on the podcast. At their live Dallas show, Jennifer appears onstage to overwhelming cheers, sharing how much it meant to have her story honored by the MFM community ([98:02–101:53]).
• Jennifer: “You honored me when you told my story.” ([98:11])
• The exchange is moving, affirming the podcast’s impact—especially the support, healing, and sense of community it can spark for survivors.

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Reflections & Recurring Themes

• Balancing Humor and Horror

  • Karen and Georgia laugh at themselves, share mistakes, and emphasize the therapeutic power of laughter in the face of disturbing material.
  • The importance of self-care and community (via live shows, meetups, and support for survivors) surfaces repeatedly.

• Empathy and Responsibility

  • Both hosts continually correct inaccuracies and highlight survivor experiences, striving to honor the stories they cover with sensitivity, even amid their signature dark humor.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:21–09:04]: Texas tour stories & gifts
• [09:35–11:24]: “My sister’s dying” live show anecdote
• [11:24–13:47]: Corrections corner (Terri Hoffman & Wind River)
• [31:00–59:13]: Amish Serial Killer (Eli Stutzman) story
• [62:09–90:44]: Georgia’s “Mysterious Disappearance” stories (Springfield Three, Asha Degree, Bobby Dunbar)
• [92:13–103:34]: Dallas Live Show “Good Thing” with Jennifer Maury Caldwell

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Engaging Calls to Action

• Book Club Invitation: Karen and Georgia encourage listeners to pick up “My Sweet Audrina” for a future discussion—ideally, a well-loved, “haunted” used paperback ([19:21–20:26]).
• Listener Input: Encouraged to send notes, thoughts, and participate in ongoing community conversations about books, cases, and updates.

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Episode Title Reconsideration ([103:03])

• Fun suggestions include “That Leave-Me-Alone Thing,” “My Sister’s Dying,” “Fabio of the Amish,” and “Cry or Laugh, Pick One”—the latter inspired by Jennifer’s live show wisdom.

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Summary

This Rewind episode blends true crime intrigue with personal storyteller warmth and pathos. Karen and Georgia honor listeners, victims, and survivors—offering case updates, comic relief, and space for communal healing. The episode ranges from cult-related murder updates to deep-dives on lesser-known serial killers and historic unsolved disappearances, all while rooting itself in friendship, accountability, and the enduring power of storytelling.

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Stay sexy. Don’t get murdered.

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For further details, book recs, or survivor resources, visit myfavoritemurder.com.

Transcript

[Karen Kilgariff]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye,

[Sponsor Voice]

My favorite.

[Producer or Guest Host]

Hello, hello and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

This is that show where we recap our early episodes with case updates and hot take revisions and all the unlocked memories we can muster today.

We're rewinding to episode 95, which we named Jesus, which doesn't sound funny, but it's with a G, so that's very clever of us.

It's a perfect reading joke for a podcast. This episode originally came out on November 16, 2017.

Okay, let's get into the intro of episode 95.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Jesus. Okay, let's get Zen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, let's get real Zen.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Put your hands in prayer position and

[Karen Kilgariff]

rub them together a little bit. Just make a little bit of friction.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is ASMR now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And get ready for. And throw the dice. This is my favorite murder, featuring Georgia Hardstark and featuring Karen Kilgariff with a

[Karen Kilgariff]

sidebar element of Steven Ray Morris right over there on the ground.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There he is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Where you expect him to Be.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And he always is. I'm cozy. He's cozy. He's there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I would never be cozy sitting in the position that Steven is in.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I've offered him a chair. Can we. Can we go ahead and it's how he likes it. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's into yoga. He must be.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Well, he's fucking young. And you can sit however you want when you're young. I'm 37. I don't even know what I'm talking. It's like, not that I'm. I'm so old.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's very young. He's a young man. All the cartilage in his knees is still there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Nothing is broken.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hi.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hey.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're back from our amazing leg of the tour down in Texas.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Dude, I knew that would be special. I knew that trip would be a special trip.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was so good. I mean, they all really are in their own way. And that sounds cheesy, but it really is true.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And these ones were great. They were just so great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In every way. I mean, why name them?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right? But they just were many ways, you know? All the ways.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's so many ways. You can just imagine. Somebody did make me. And I'm sorry, I don't know your name offhand, but it was the second night in Dallas, and a woman came up and just handed me a very beautiful silver box. And inside she made a box full of moth cookies. So it was the box of moths that I fear, but in cookie form, which I don't fear.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it. I think it may have erased my phobia of getting a box of moths in the mail.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It happened. And you were happy about it that

[Karen Kilgariff]

no one got hurt. They were delicious cookies.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are you scared of dead. Getting dead moths in the mail or live moths?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Live. Like opening a box and having moths

[Georgia Hardstark]

fly into my face. Up in your face.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like Silence of the Lamb style.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it's. Is it the moths also? Or is it. Or just. Or is it also the connotation of what. What would mean for one to take the time to send you a box of moths?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. How creepy specifically that would be. Although I'm not exactly sure. Whenever we were talking about that, it just came out of my mouth.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. And I have this fucking podcast.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is called, like, a Journey into the Subconscious that we never want to talk about again.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, remember that.

[Producer or Guest Host]

So we were both.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We were in Dallas and we met in the lobby of the hotel, and when we were, like, leaving for the show, and we were both like, did someone knock on your Door and hand you a present.

[Producer or Guest Host]

And we were.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I had been freaked out because I got a knock on the door. I was like, who the fuck is it? It was like the conc. Like, whatever.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A guy that worked there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A guy that worked there, which, like, you don't want a dude fucking knocking at your door anyways when you're alone out of the shower. And he was like. He, you know, said someone had given a present. So I opened the door, which I don't know what I was thinking, Handed me a gift bag. And then I was like, okay, someone knows where I'm staying now, and this is creepy and scary, and I don't know who this is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then it happened to you too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It happened to me. And I. This is the part of the brag that I want to tell the most, which is that our rooms were so big and beautiful at that hotel that someone would knock on the door. This happened to me multiple times. And it would take me so long to get to the door that they would either knock again or try to open the door. No. Well. But it would be like, say, turn down or the maid or something like that. Because I always forget to put that leave me alone thing on the door. I always forget. I always want to be real.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Vince and I, this is how compatible we are the moment we. We don't close the door to the hotel room before putting the leave me alone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I gotta adapt to that. Oh, my God. Cause there's nothing worse than when a person comes into your room. They don't want to be there when you're there. And it's like you're being a creep by having not put the sign on the door.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So anyway, the guy knocked. I was walking over, knocked again, and I said, who is it? No one answered. Knocked again. I said, who is it? But it was close enough to. I thought maybe it was you joking around. And I didn't have pants on. So then I was like, oh, I'm just gonna open the door. As our funny joke of opening the door with no clothes on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. But then this is actually a thing that's happened a couple of times. I love surprising with no clothes on. It's my favorite joke.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's a pretty good one. But I. So I stood behind the door, opened it. It was a dude, and he was like, here's a present for you. He didn't say, here's a present anything, but here's a present for you. And I kept the door so closed that I basically only could fit my arm out Grabbed the bag, pulled it in, and slammed the door. Didn't say thank you. I didn't say anything. And it was really scary. Well, then, of course, we meet the woman who dropped those things off.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. She's like, oh, did you guys get my bag that I sent you the present and immediate? And I was terrified. And we were like, how do we look into this? I'm yell at the front desk and, what's going on? Did she call around Texas looking for the fucking? Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our minds, of course, went in fucking insane in the way where if other people could hear us, they'd be like, calm down, assholes. Like, this is not that big of a deal.

[Jennifer Maury Caldwell]

I don't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But when the explanation finally came, it was, like, really embarrassing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

First I saw her, and she was just like, the sweetest blonde Texan, like, angel face. So I'm like, all right, if this is the girl who's going to kill us, it's like, okay, that's a pretty good way to go. She's fine. She's sweet. She'll do it nicely. But then she was like, did y' all get my present? I saw Vince in the parking lot of my hotel, and so I sent it up. Like, she just knew that we were

[Karen Kilgariff]

staying there, like, in the most natural, non invasive, invasive way possible.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She knew. And this. So sent us up some deli. And also, it's the thing that everyone. We were going crazy for and everyone in Texas, we learned that there's a. There's a gas station called Buc EE's that's. That's beloved. And Buc EE's makes a product. Steven. I don't know if you know this already. They make a product called Beaver Nuggets that are essentially crack cocaine dipped in

[Georgia Hardstark]

fucking, like, maple sugar or some shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. There's a pork rind element, but also kind of like puffed corn cereal, but then maple coating.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And something about it, like, they don't look cotton candy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's almost got a cotton candy element.

[Producer or Guest Host]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because it's just like sugar and air. But we were eating them like lunatics.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So many of those.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that's what she sent up. It was like the loveliest gift of like, welcome to Texas.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. We're like, fucking. You're gonna kill us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're, like, rappelling down the side of the building to avoid being in the front. It was so crazy. But it's just that thing of.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can we do one last on the road story really quickly? Because that's my favorite of the Chicks. Whose sister? The chick and her sister.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. So after the live shows, we do, like, a meet and greet thing where we meet so many cool people, like listeners, and take photos with them. And a lot of them give us presents, like boxes of chocolate, of candy, moths or whatever. So one girl came and met us, and she was so nice, and she was like, you guys got me through some really hard times. Thank you so much. Whatever. We're like, great. Okay. And then we go to take a photo with her. And as the photos. Photo is about to be taken.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. There's like, that moment of silence where we all turn to the camera and are like, fake smile, do a weird pose. And right in that moment, she goes. She's like, I'm gonna do what the lady did. And then Georgia's gonna do what she did.

[Producer or Guest Host]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. So the lady goes, my sister's dying. And Georgia laughed just like that.

[Producer or Guest Host]

Louder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, Georgia burst out laughing, like, was cracking up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because when you're in a horrified position, sometimes you just laugh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, and it was so quiet. It was like. Also, I think it was the tension of, like, what the fuck are we gonna do?

[Georgia Hardstark]

What? My sister's dying.

[Karen Kilgariff]

My sister's dying. So then Georgia laughs, then the pictures.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Then Karen says, georgia, I didn't say it like that. You. You were kind of like, don't do that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, I was just like that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You admonished me. You've never admonished me before.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, you were laughing.

[Producer or Guest Host]

I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She said her sister.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I didn't say you were in the wrong at all. I 100% agree with you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I turn to the woman after the photo.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're like, oh, my God, both of those. Like, are you okay? Like, what are you talking about?

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're like, tell us everything. Eye contact, turned, you know, circle up, huddle up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is gonna be a moment.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is a thing. And we're here for you. We get it. And then she goes, she is so jealous that she's not here. Right. She just fucking used the wrong phrasing right in the moment of silence. So it's. It felt like she was basically saying, I'd like to tell you this very sad thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My sister is dying.

[Karen Kilgariff]

My sister's dying.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, my sister's dying of how she meant to say it.

[Producer or Guest Host]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So now we know how I react in moments of fucking horror. And now we know. I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was hilarious.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's about it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was super. And also, she thought it was kind of funny once. We were like, we thought your sister was Dying. And then she was like, oh, no, no, she's fine.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We were, like, mad at her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Cause that was a lot. I do have a corrections corner.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And this really is only for the people that were at our second show in Dallas when I did the story of Terri Hoffman, who was this crazy cult leader. It was one of my favorite murder stories I've ever done. But at the end, I said, she died in 1997, which was very odd. I, like, pulled it out. Cause I didn't have it on the page, and I'd forgotten to write the. I had some things notes I wanted to make, and I just didn't do it right. So I just wanted to tell everybody. She actually died in 2015 at age 77.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That is a big difference in time.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She just kept going.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She was just, like, not giving up on this cult dream.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, she wasn't at all. And she. She. That book that she made was the Color of Money. The Power of Color, Money Force, or the. Or the Color of Money. Power Force is some bullshit book about, like. And we talked about it that night. Whatever color you wear is gonna bring you money in different degrees.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No. How about a fucking vintage orange clown blanket? Is that gonna bring me a lot? Cause that's what I'm wearing right now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, look, there's a $50 bill stuffed underneath your butt.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Holy shit. Oh, no, that's just where I keep my money. Oh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh. Just stuffed right under your one cheek. I have a second corrections corner.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is for everybody. Last week, I said that the director of Wind river was a woman. And it certainly is not a woman.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't remember any of this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm not sure exactly where I got it, but it was the movie that

[Producer or Guest Host]

I was talking about.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I watched it on the plane, and it was really good. It was about the murder on Native American land. And it was. So I said, it's Taylor. I'm gonna look it up really quick. The director's name is Taylor Sheridan, and that's a man.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Taylor isn't interchangeable name.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It is, but I feel like I should have at least glanced at a Wikipedia. But I think I. I thought I remembered a female woman of love. Like a Native American female woman getting. Getting accolades. And so I kind of really combined it all in my mind anyway.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Props to Taylor Sheridan because it's such a good movie.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, I'll watch it. Can I tell you something?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

From the Internet.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. I found an article recently. It says it's From a place DC101 is like a is the name of the website and it says weird news. The voice behind many best selling books on tape is actually a serial killer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So it turns out that in. In the 80s, a blind couple showing their appreciation to the prisoners of the California Medical Facility State Prison who have voiced. They started a program to have the inmates there voice audiobooks.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The program was then run by our friend Ed Kemper. No. So it's called Volunteers of Vacaville or the Blind Project. They recorded thousands of books, bestsellers, textbooks, mysteries, science fiction, Western Western's children's books and cookbooks onto tape cassettes. From 1977-87, Kemper had spent over 5,000 hours in the recording booth and had more than 4 million feet of tape and several hundred books to his credit, including, and this is the best one, Flowers in the Fucking Addict. Addict.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Addict.

[Georgia Hardstark]

God damn it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Flowers in the Addictions.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Flowers in the Attic. Why do I do that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. Purely based on Mindhunter, the wonderful series on Netflix that I personally love. And the way that actor played Ed Kemper. Oh, can you imagine Flowers in the Attic as that guy in that kind of nerdy voice like that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

She touched his groin. Is that in the book? I don't know if I knew about it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sister and brother touching groins.

[Georgia Hardstark]

My brother like that. We have to track that down somewhere.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, I would never listen to that in a million years.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I would. What if I started falling asleep to that at night? Because, you know, relaxing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, it is not calming and relaxing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, it's one of my new fall asleep at night books. And then I kill a bunch of people and they're not related at all.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I find, and I've already bragged that I'm sound sensitive, I find people's voices

[Producer or Guest Host]

to be a real make or break.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And knowing that a person who had that voice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Was also a psychotic killer who beheaded

[Georgia Hardstark]

his own mother, it'd be a hard break for you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That would be a tough one. To separate and not hear all the crickly crags of insanity and murder in there. Fair enough.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fair enough. So I can listen to a book about murder while falling asleep, but I can't listen to. I shouldn't listen to a book by a murderer read by a murderer?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't think so. I don't think you need any subconscious.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because you do the thing where you know when like you look at old photos of a murderer and you're like, do I see it? Can I see it? Yes. I can see it in his eyes, right? Will I hear it? In his. In his voice.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You absolutely will.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Of course I will.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Tin a drink?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If nothing else, you're to be hearing the voice of a sociopath who has no human, like, normal human connection to the book. He's just not going to do the book justice. We read so much VC Andrews when I was, like, 12.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God, me too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It should have been taken away from us.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It should have been banned. Listen, I'm not for banning books.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, not really, but.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But B.C. andrews had some shit going on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did you ever read My Sweet Audrina?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. I obsessed on that concept where I was like, what if my parents have brainwashed me and I don't remember my actual childhood? Like, that whole concept was unbelievable.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can I tell you how badly I wanted to have been adopted and had. I wanted to have been kidnapped by my parents and they weren't really my parents.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What the fuck is wrong? Why would they.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because it's just, like, exciting. Like, you're just sitting there in front of your TV dinner. You know what I mean? Like, having your normal life and you're like, what if something happened?

[Georgia Hardstark]

What is cool happened?

[Producer or Guest Host]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, I didn't belong here. Yeah. Let's start. Let's read that again. Let's book club it right now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Producer or Guest Host]

Do you want to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's all read. Which one do you want to do? Do you want to do My Sweet Audrey?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't remember most of My Sweet Audrina, but it gives me chills, so I must know something is going on in that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm pretty sure that's the one where at one point, the adoptive mother, somebody scrubs somebody else with bleach in a bathtub.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fun.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you remember that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, you must get clean. No.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's do it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If it's not that one, it's a different.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's say that one. Or Flowers in the Attic? Let's start with. What should we start with?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I kind of want to do My Sweet Audrina just because it's a little bit like, I just rewatched the. They did the Flowers in the Attic, made for TV movie on Lifetime.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did you watch it, Stephen? Did Malz do an episode? No, but she should.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, she absolutely should.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wait, will you tell her I'll do it with her if she does it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So, yeah. Oh, do you want to do it, too? Sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Miles has a podcast called Mother May Asleep With Podcasts. Mother May Asleep With Podcast that we've both done where you watch a fucking. Made for tv. Lifetime Movie.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And did she stop doing it?

[Producer or Guest Host]

She's seasonal, so.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, right.

[Producer or Guest Host]

You know, you go. You go beat by beat of the movie.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So she does it in 15 episode

[Producer or Guest Host]

chunks, takes a few months off.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my gosh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, then we all have time to absorb it, watch it 15 times.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, write, you know, full essays on it, and then.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, Malz, Molly McAleer, Molly McLeer,

[Karen Kilgariff]

we're coming at you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're coming for you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But everybody else that wants to do this, let's all read My Sweet Audrina. Like, do you want to go pick up copies tomorrow?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Today it will be.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It has to be a used, like, paperback copy, too. Let's do that. It has to be a haunted copy that's haunted with the tears of a fucking girl from the 80s who's like, I hope I get kidnapped.

[Producer or Guest Host]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

By a hot. Cut that out. Fantasies.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If you can go to a thrift store that has the copy of this or your mother or your grandmother's bookshelf. It makes me think of the cabin we used to stay in in Blue Lake that had all kinds of. It's Stephen King, VC Andrews, they had all that shit at this cabin. You could just go pick some horrible book you were gonna read while you were there for the week.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, that sounds amazing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So we're going to. We're all starting My Sweet Aud this Friday.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Because. So next week is Thanksgiving, so we're putting a live episode up, and so let's meet back here in a week. In two weeks.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In two weeks. At the beginning of December. Yeah, Whatever our next Apartment episode is,

[Georgia Hardstark]

we'll meet you here, and we will

[Karen Kilgariff]

have read, and we will be ready to discuss My Sweet Audrey.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You guys, this is epic. Epic. Send us notes, your thoughts. All right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. Why am I so excited?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, because it's the best thing we've ever done.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Come on, we're doing it all for you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Look, we're here for you. Look and listen, please, at my favorite murder.com.com goodbye.org.org. you know. What's a. Is there like a religious one?.something.

[Karen Kilgariff]

G, E, S, U, S. G, E,

[Georgia Hardstark]

S, U, S. You just spelled Jesus wrong, Ms. Catholic.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's because I was trying to include everybody. Some people call him God, some people call him Yahweh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hold on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

G, E, S, U, S. Wow. That's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think my addict. My addict has been usurped as the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I do not mean to complain, but recently I've been in states of mind of Being so tired and drained or just, like, we just talk too much. There's so much talking that I hear things come out of my mouth. Or I'm doing that weird thing of, like, you hold the door open for someone and they walk through, and then you're like, you're welcome. Tomorrow you say just some totally weird thing and you think you're saying the normal thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, no, I get it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Horrifying.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's fun. No, it's not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's a good time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Who's first this week? You know what? We started.

[Producer or Guest Host]

Let's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's talk about this really quickly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We decided that. And I think we should talk more about this, of who should be first this week, meaning if your fucking murder is horrifying and awful and I have a fucking delightful black widower from the fucking 1800s who just, like, kills all her husbands, that's like. Well, I should go second to bring it back up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like, last week I went second and did the Bernies. And that is just a terrible story. And you should have closed it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. And same with. Remember the last night? I did the story of the boy that killed his father.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And same exact thing where we were both like, hey, and I did a

[Georgia Hardstark]

fucking guy who dressed up as Santa Claus in the early 1900s and robbed the bank. And it was. Hilarity ensued. So much hilarity ensued. And this is Dallas. Third night in Dallas.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Was it third night?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know. So I should have closed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, look, we can look back in remembrance all we want, but we're maybe.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Maybe when one of us knows we're doing a murder, our story is fucking horrific. And we can tell the other person, like, hey, this isn't a closer. Are you. Can you do the closer?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, that sounds fine to me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, so mine right now. It can be a closer if you need it to be. Okay. How's yours? Not okay. Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Perfect. So we. Right now, we are now officially dismantling the. Who went first last time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Unless we need it. Unless. It doesn't matter.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, how will we go back

[Georgia Hardstark]

to it whenever we decide? Okay, we'll make it up on the spot.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah, that's right. We can do it over, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's no format.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is all printed, Ton. All right, great.

[Producer or Guest Host]

Okay, we're back.

This is so fun, this rewind stuff. Because this is stuff that isn't in my memory anymore.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Producer or Guest Host]

So, like, to go back. Yeah. Like, it's really, like, actually fun. I mean, I'm Surprised, Honestly, like the beaver. Buc ee's beaver nuggets. Like, that was such a big, big deal in our lives then.

I know. It was like Texas all of a sudden was like, in our life in this major way where it's like, oh, my God. I just never imagined that this would happen, that this would be the spot where people are like, no, we're all. There's gonna be a shit ton of us, and we're gonna tell you exactly the secret to living, which is eating these essentially maple syrup corn puffs right out of a bag.

Yeah.

So good.

It's just wild.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That whole time in our life, it's

[Producer or Guest Host]

good to see the kind of, like, being able to separate and the hard part from the fun part.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Producer or Guest Host]

Yeah.

You know, it's like this is the most fun washed version of this experience we could have, which is we don't remember the details. And it's like, oh, but remember the fun part.

Yeah, totally.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love that.

[Producer or Guest Host]

I love that for us. I love that for us back then. Cause it feels so much. So much younger and so much like. I never realized that we weren't into the podcast that long when this. All this crazy stuff started happening.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Producer or Guest Host]

And the Texas thing is because when we were, like, planning to go on tour, you know, is anyone gonna come? Our touring agent told us that Texas is one of our biggest markets. And I think we were both shocked by that because I always figured people from Texas would hate me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know why.

[Producer or Guest Host]

Right. It's like we fell for the big Fox News lie or whatever, where it's like, there's no enemies anywhere. There's no. It has nothing to do with the state that you live in or anything.

You mean we're not the coastal elite and you don't hate us? I mean, great.

Also, this is one of our favorite memories of a moment in the VIP

[Karen Kilgariff]

where the woman was taking the picture

[Producer or Guest Host]

with us and said, oh, my God, my sister's dying.

And we both.

And we thought she meant stopped.

We're both like, I totally remember. And she goes, of jealousy, of jealousy, of jealousy.

It was like, perfect. Perfectly. The worst time to take a picture. Cutting her off at that moment in the sentence. It was so funny.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was.

[Producer or Guest Host]

That was like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That was a beautiful moment. That. And then. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What a relief.

[Producer or Guest Host]

Just from one moment, something sad wasn't happening. That was crazy. Oh, and also, this is my mistake about Wind river director Taylor Sheridan, who

[Karen Kilgariff]

is not a woman.

[Producer or Guest Host]

And also learning from this specific episode,

[Karen Kilgariff]

I thought a native woman.

[Producer or Guest Host]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is Gonna follow you this thing and every episode.

[Producer or Guest Host]

You have to bring this up from now on.

Yeah, exactly. I'll never stop talking about it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But it was like that's.

[Producer or Guest Host]

It's almost more embarrassing because I'm kind of like trying to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What do they call that?

[Producer or Guest Host]

Virtue signaling of, like, I loved this movie and a native woman directed it.

What I'm doing, everyone I know.

Nope.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Producer or Guest Host]

Turns out the single WGA member that was against the strike and came out and talked about it, that's who I'm actually talking about. Once again, a corrections corner for the ages.

And then also, I didn't realize we did this so early. And I think this is really smart of us, if I can say, say is, hey, let's do the more light hearted stories after the heavy stories. So whoever's heavier that week goes first. Like, that has made such a huge difference, I think, in us, in the show, in the way we're able to do it.

Yes.

Like, I'll have a gnarly fucking, like, story and I'll be like, how am I going to do this? And then I'll remember that you probably have, like a fun heist afterwards, so it's okay.

And that's the fun the producers get to have where they're not only mapping out our calendar of, like, when do we get to go on vacation next? But they're mapping out how we're gonna do this so that it feels like there's some sort of intentionality behind it, which is, yes, it's great. And it's so funny that it took us, I guess, a year of touring to be like, hey, here's a little data from the realm.

Here's what you don't want to go out on is a fucking serial killer. Good night. Thank you and good night.

No, good night. Yeah, we learned that one about as quick as we learned don't do the same story for both shows.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Producer or Guest Host]

That was immediate. Oh, God, the silence. All right, so shall we get into your story?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's do it.

[Producer or Guest Host]

Let's do it. This is Eli Stutzman, the Amish serial killer.

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Goodbye

[Karen Kilgariff]

this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's funny because in thinking of that, I worked on a couple different murders, and I did this in Texas a couple times where I'd start something and I'm like, this is too depressing. So, like, there was the Killing Fields. I was working on the Killing Fields because it's right outside Houston, and it is a place where either one or several serial killers go to dump young women's bodies. It's been going on for years. No one's ever. I think they caught one guy that's connected to 11 murders, but they haven't caught all of them. It's the blues.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's a show called the 11 right now that you can watch. I think it's an Annie show on Demand.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, is that true about them? Yeah, it's good on Annie.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, it's On Demand. I don't know who did it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, okay. That's great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because it's very. It's very involved and convoluted, and I got, I would say, a quarter of the way through it. And then I was like, this is for a live show especially, is just so bleak.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, we get so many people at live shows being like, you shouldn't. Why didn't you do this murder? And it's like, because it's so fucking depressing. Not because we don't want to or didn't know about it. Right. It's just like hearing the audience's silence when you're talking about fucking 11 people getting murdered. Who didn't. It's not solved. Is a huge bummer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's rough. And also, it's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, whatever.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's just all kinds of elements going on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So it's just felt like I've started and stopped many because there's so many dark ones. But then I stumbled upon an episode of the television show Deadly Devotion, which I think is on id.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Never seen that one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I got it on Apple on, like, itunes. Yeah, but so it's basically like murders that happen within certain churches or religious groups, obviously. Yeah. So this one is pretty amazing. It's the Amish serial killer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Amish serial killer, yeah. Tell me about.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, not in the classic sense, but yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So there's a. I knew nothing about any of this. I didn't know there were subsets of Amish within the Amish. And there are some who are more liberal and some who are more conservative. That sounds political, but more, you know, classic old School and the Swartz and Truber Amish. I'm sorry, Swartz and Truber Amish are, are the considered Old Order Amish. They speak Pennsylvania Dutch. I mean, Pennsylvania Germans. I'm not even reading off the page that I'm holding in front of my face. I'm like trying to remember off the top of my head as I'm looking at it. They speak Pennsylvania German. They speak English with outsiders. They don't follow. They don't fellowship or intermarry with more liberal Amish orders. So they won't go outside of their own Amish group if like the, like they consider the Amish who put the red orange reflective signs on the back of their carriages that say like slow thing. That's too liberal for them. These people don't have running water or indoor plumbing. They never ride in cars unless it's an absolute emergency. Their belief is that they're not supposed to take interest in their appearance because it promotes vanity. So they dress dress and dark colors. The women wear longer dresses. It's. It's considered vain to wear a button on your dress as a woman like to have buttons.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So basically they're a huge fucking bummer. And you know what's great about when we do Amish stories is that they can't listen and tell us what we got wrong.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They'll never know a word we're saying about those phony,

[Georgia Hardstark]

those phony fucking buttons.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're so phony. Calling the Amish phony phony phonies. Fucking phonies. Okay. No, they're actually the realist. So they also don't allow the teenagers, you know, normal Amish teenagers go to get to do their rum springa where they go out into the world for a year and party and go crazy and then they get to come back and then they're like, yeah, this is better. And it is better. They have homemade butter and those barns.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Those wood burning stoves they sell on tv. So the Schwartz and Truber Amish teenagers do not get to leave, but they do allow them to quote court, in order to find a marriage partner, which includes hugging in a bed while being fully clothed and rocking in a chair together. So sorry. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What the fuck?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, you see him across the room and you're like, oh my God, what is this electricity that I'm feeling?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, because I don't know what electricity

[Karen Kilgariff]

is because I.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't know what this means.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Come on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's trying to high five me from across the room.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I just held up my hand to high five Georgia. And she fucking picked up her foot and pointed it at me like I was gonna high five her foot. That was.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Jesus.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Far away. That was genius. Okay, this is a good start. This is a good start. So that was so something my sister would do. Okay, so, yeah, so it's hardcore. And there's a young woman named Ida who is raised, you know, she's in the community. Her family is well liked. She's, you know, a pretty young girl that everybody likes. And they show this thing in the episode of the show where one of the ways that the boys and girls, teenage boys and girls mix together is they go sing in groups in a barn.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sounds like a fucking blast, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

They go into the barn, the guys are kind of over on one side singing, and then the girls are on their side singing. So Ida goes to one of these mixers to, you know, that's a generous way to describe it. And there she meets a fellow Schwarzentruber Amishman named Eli Stutzman. He's good looking, he's witty, he's sophisticated, he's charismatic. He was a rebel. The people in this episode, he wore a button.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He wore a button.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He had a button, like, as a pin, right? No, he didn't just use it as a button. It wasn't. He just had an extra fucking button.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, Superfluous button. Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Are you the. So the people in this episode, there was this really awesome woman who used to be Amish, and she had the greatest accent, and she was like, so, like, you know, wearing her white turtleneck. Yeah, very. But the craziest accent. You couldn't figure out what that accent was. And she was saying that he always stood out, that he was this, you know, he was really good looking, and he just kind of was like this thing everyone paid attention to because he was just different than the other Amish teenage boys.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He was the Fabio of the Amish world.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Totally.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The actor that they got to play him in the reenactments looked like the main guy from Walking Dead. Oh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So he had cheekbones.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cheekbones and kind of, like, rangy, you know, like, something's going on with that guy. He might shoot you and eat you. So his father was a bishop, and he was like a rebel. So he was his father. And he fought constantly, really viciously, because he would talk in church. He was always just doing something. He did whatever he wanted. And the father made the father crazy and embarrassed, and he couldn't control him. And he was always testing the limits, they said. So of course Ida immediately is like, I'm in love with this man.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Love it. He's incredible. He wants to be talking during church. Love him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's a fucking fighter.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Don't shut his fucking mouth at church.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's whispering during the Bible reading. Okay. So she ends up. Some people, her parents are worried that she's mixing in with a bad Amish, but other people say that she had this calming effect on him, and he was much less rebellious. And they were clearly really into each other and in love. And the way they describe it, the Amish describe it, is when you have these things, they call it being worldly. So, like, if you're really into your appearance in the vanity thing, that's a worldly issue. It means, like, you're from the outside world. Yeah. So his worldly ways created problems in the community and with his father specifically. And so he gets in such a bad fight with his father, he leaves the community. And, of course, Ayda's devastated. He never says a word to her. He just leaves. She's brokenhearted, but she knows they're in love. She believes they're in love, and she believes he's gonna come back. So he goes and stays at a different farm, another Amish family. He goes and stays there, like, rents a room, but he ends up getting kicked out because the mother in the family finds gay porn in his room.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wait, What?

[Producer or Guest Host]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Fucking 180.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So she's in the reenactment, she's making this bed with the big, beautiful Amish quilt on it. And then it's like, what's this over here? And basically, this was a thing that he had been dealing with as part of his rebellion and part of his thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

What do you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How do you think.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Do you think the Amish woman was just like, what is this? And she's like, I'm gonna take five minutes, and then I'm gonna go tell everyone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She's like, I better look through this to make sure.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. Where do you. Okay. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So you can imagine how freaked out they were where they were, like, they just immediately kick him out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Where did he even find gay porn?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, it sounds like he was kind of. From the looks of it and the sound of it, he was a bit of a sociopath. So he got what he wanted all the time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He went to a Buc EE's, and he was like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He went down to the BUC EE's, he put on his worldly suspenders so that nobody would pick up on him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, so.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. So he ends up moving back into the community. And he tells Ida that he wants to marry her and start a life, and he's gonna reform and he's gonna. Which essentially was. He had nowhere else to go. And so he comes back, he apologizes, he repents. They get married on Christmas, 1975. So after a month, she's pregnant, and they start their family. You know, their son Danny is born, obviously, nine months later. Turns out the Amish carry their children for nine months, just like the worldly folk. So they move. Their son Danny's born, and then they move to a farm and they start a dairy business. So they have a bunch of cows. They milk the cows, they sell the milk, and that's how they make their money. And they all work on this farm. It's really hard work, but they're actually doing okay. And Ida gets pregnant for a second time. And then one night, an electrical storm hits. And they wake up in the middle of the night, and a lightning bolt has hit the barn, and it caught it on fire. So they run outside, and Ida runs straight into the barn. She's like, I'm gonna go save those pails of milk.

[Jennifer Maury Caldwell]

What?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, girl. And he runs to go to the pump to get. To start filling buckets with water. And when he comes back with the buckets of water, Ida is laying in the doorway of the barn unconscious. And so he, you know, gets neighbors. They end up calling 911. And he. When the police and the fire department, everybody get there, he explains that Ida, when she was a child, she had a bout of rheumatic fever, and so she had a weak heart and she ended up being dead. And so they were like, she must have been so scared of this fire and having run in and everything that she just had a heart attack and died. So they list her death as cardiac arrest.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wow.

[Producer or Guest Host]

So

[Karen Kilgariff]

he, of course, is completely grief stricken, and the community rallies around him. They all start working at the farm to make sure the dairy farm keeps going. He's just in the house. Some people come to take care of Danny because he's just, like, completely beside himself. And Ida's mother actually moves in to take care of Danny. And slowly, as the months go by, she notices Eli is less and less grief stricken and more and more acting like the rebel that he was before he left the first time. And within months of her death, he has the whole farm electrified. What? Yeah. So there's a really hilarious scene where they just walk in and he's got this big, really devious smile on his face. He like, reaches up and pulls at the string and like the light goes on in the kitchen. Like, yes, see, this is mine. So he puts in lights everywhere. He buys a car, he cuts his hair, and he starts leaving the house at night. So Ayda's mother's like, what the is going on? So then it turns out he put an ad in the personal section of a gay newspaper.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wait, what?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So he was going to live that secret dream that he wanted to do before. And here, this is how the ad read. Oh, dear amish man, muscular, 30s, 5 7, 140, blue eyes, brown hair, straight appearing, I think is what the. That's strapp, right?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Very strapping appearance.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Strapping str. What is it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I was thinking that they meant like straight. Like, he seems straight.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, got it, got it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But it could be strapping appearance. The brawny man, very discreet, affectionate, health conscious sense of humor, would like to meet others into farming, ranching or carpentry for friendship or possible relationship. So he's going for it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, find love, dude. I love.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Farming and ranching are very similar. I'm not sure why he used. He used up those letters to write both, but maybe there's a subtle difference. I'm not sure. Or it could be code, I don't know. So he starts having parties in the barn. And like, men are coming.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Wife died.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, men are, you know, this is months after, but men are coming to

[Producer or Guest Host]

the ranch,

[Karen Kilgariff]

Gay men. And it says, it says here he starts having parties in the barn for gay, English and Amish men. So I think it's just like whoever wants to come. But basically the entire community starts gossiping because they're just like, did you hear?

[Georgia Hardstark]

And he's not being discreet in the leap.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's got lights on, like, for starters. So finally there's so much gossip and he's so, you know, he goes and tells the family friends, like he's so hurt by all this gossip, making it seem like it's all malicious and untrue that he. In 1982, he sells the farm, he takes Danny and he leaves and he settles in Austin, Texas. And it was really hard for Danny to make that adjustment because he went from being, you know, old school Amish into just the real world of Austin, Texas. So he became really withdrawn. He had a really hard time. Meanwhile, his dad was basically opens a construction business and just starts freely dating gay men. Like, dating openly in a very modern way, which, you know, it's the early 80s in Texas. Like, it must have been dangerous to Say the least.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In the fall of 1984, Eli is driving down the road, and he sees a hitchhiker. He picks him up, and his name's Glenn Pritchard. And Glenn Pritchard is a divorced father of two who used to be Mormon and had a really bad drinking problem. He left the Mormon church. He left his family, or maybe his wife divorced him because of his drinking problem. He tried to join the Coast Guard to solve the problem. He got kicked out. So now he's just kind of lost. So Eli offers him a job at the construction business and room and board in the house. So he actually, Danny, Eli's son, gets along with Glen really well, and Glen has two kids, and he really misses his kids. And so he takes Danny on as his own and looks out for him. And he really doesn't like the way Eli's bringing men home constantly and is in no way tries to hide it. And Glenn's really uncomfortable like that. He's doing it in front of Danny and thinks, you know, and tries to talk to him about it, but he doesn't. He. You know, Eli has none of that. And then he's like, well, I also have another problem, which is you haven't paid me in six months. Because he's been working, you know, for the construction company, and Eli's not paying. And Eli's like, I have a cash flow problem. I'm going to get you the money. He's like, well, you need to get me the money. Well, it turns out they find Glenn Pritchard dead in a ditch. He's been shot. And when the police come to talk to Eli, they find his last place of residence. Eli says, I haven't seen him in two months. I don't know what happened to him. Immediately, police are like, there's something going

[Georgia Hardstark]

on with this guy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

When they go back to question him a second time, like, a week later, Danny and Eli have left town.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Uh, oh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So basically, Eli drops Danny off at a family that he met when he kind of first left Ohio, where he. Where they started out. There's, like, a family named the Barlows in Wyoming that he met. I don't think he knew them that well. And he brings Danny to their house and drops him off and is basically, can you take care of him? I have to go. And, like, makes up some reason why business he has to go take care of. And he's like, I'll be back. And six months later, he calls and says he's coming to get Danny to take him to Danny's grandparents for Christmas. So he's going to take him to Ida's parents.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Back to Amish country. Danny's thrilled. And then the grandparents are also thrilled because they hear that they're coming back for the holidays and so they haven't seen Danny in five years.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my gosh.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So they're thrilled that they, they get to see him again and reconnect. Ten days later, it's Christmas Eve. They don't show up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So of course the family's really worried. Eventually they get a letter from. They get a letter from Eli saying he's skiing with friends in Idaho. And then he keeps sending letters, just giving them updates on what they're doing out in the world. And sometimes Danny sends letters to just saying, you know, I'm learning this in school and blah, blah, blah. So then, then the grandparents in July. So it's like, you know, six months after they didn't show up for Christmas, they get a letter saying that Danny was killed in a car accident and buried in Wyoming on the family plot of the Barlows, the family that he stayed with.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And the parents, the grandparents were like, well, we, we wanna see. Tell us more about it. And he just doesn't say anything else. So they end up getting on a bus. These old school Amish people who are not allowed to ride in cars, they break the rule, they get on a bus and they go to Wyoming so that they can go see their grandson's grave. So when they get there, their last name is Gingrich. So the Gingriches get to the Barlows in Wyoming and they, you please show us our grandson's grave. And they don't know what they're talking about. And they're like. The last that we heard is they left. You know, Eli came and picked them up and they were going, driving around and we haven't heard anything else. He's not buried here. So then they have to ride back on the bus like now. They have no idea what's going on. On December 24, 1985, in Chester, Nebraska, a hunter is walking through a field.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Uh huh. And he sees something across the field. And it's fucking cold. You know, it's Nebraska in December. He thinks it's a mannequin. He thinks it's a doll. And when he comes up on it, it's the body of a young boy in blue pajamas laying on his back with his hand over his heart. And it's so cold outside that the skin is blue. And he's dead. And authorities can't identify him. There's nothing identifying on him. So they end up calling him Little Boy Blue. And two years later, Reader's Digest does a story about Little Boy Blue and the hunter who found them and how there was no sign of trauma on the body. They don't know how he died, and they don't. The authorities hadn't figured out a cause of death. They just know he was wearing blue pajamas.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Pajamas.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So the Barlows find this story in Reader's Digest magazine?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They know that when Danny left their house, when Eli came to pick him up, he was wearing blue pajamas.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Shut the fuck up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So they have a bad feeling and they go to police or they call police. And the police come over. And the investigator who was on the scene when the body was found is the one that goes to the Barlow's house. And they go pull out a picture of Danny. And he immediately knows that's the boy. And they end up taking some of the things that Danny left behind at the Barlow's house. One of which was a copy of the Velvetine Rabbit book, which was his favorite book. And they fingerprint off of the pages of that book and they identify it. And it was his body. It's so Sad.

[Producer or Guest Host]

So

[Karen Kilgariff]

on December 14, it's identified as Danny Stutzman. And. And they realize Eli has been sending letters from Danny to the grandparents seven months after Danny was actually dead in that field.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So he died immediately after leaving the Barlows house. Probably because he was pretty much.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Pretty much exactly right. In a Texas town out. I believe it was outside Fort Worth. Eli files a police report because his car gets stolen. And immediately the police go and arrest him and he's extradited to Wyoming. So when he gets there, he tells the police that he picked Danny up from the Barlows. And he was sick when he picked him up. And they were driving all night and Eli just assumed that he was sleeping. And then at one point, he checked on him because he wasn't responsive. And he figured out that he was dead. So he took Danny's body and laid it out in a field quote where God could find him.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Mm. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So upon learning this and that bullshit story, the police reopen ida's death from 1977. And they go talk to Ida's doctor who is in this special. And he is like this. I'm assuming he's an Amish doctor. Cause he looks like a character actor from Little House on the Prairie. And he kind of talks like this. He's very quiet. And basically the police went to them and they were asking him about Ida's heart problem. And he's like, what are you talking about? She didn't have a heart problem. And they're like. And he goes, where did you get that? And they were like, the husband? And he's like, no, no, no. She was in perfect health. So then they know basically that he had something to do with that death, but they have no evidence to connect him to it whatsoever. When the Austin police ask him about Glenn Pritchard's death, though, he changes his story from what the original story was. And he tells them that he was in the house with Danny. They heard a gunshot go off, but he didn't get up and check to see what the noise was. And then. Yeah, right, how you would do if you were in a house and someone else got shot. And then the next morning when he got up to check, Glenn was gone. And so he, you know, he didn't know what happened and never looked into it. So turns out when the police go to talk to the neighbors, the neighbors are like, we could hear them screaming about money at each other constantly. And we heard the gunshot.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So they. That, like, the neighbors tell a totally different story. And so basically the theory becomes Danny was there when his father shot Glenn Pritchard and he didn't want the witness, so he smothered Danny and that's why there was no signs of trauma on the body.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And then left his body in a fucking field. Which is just the weird. Like that alone. The idea that he thought he was going to be able to tell authorities that, like, left him where God could find him. Where. It's like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Like you thought that was okay somehow, or. It's like no one would think that was okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You would. You would never do that to your child. It doesn't even make sense.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Anyway, on August. In August of 1989, he's sentenced to 40 years in prison. But he's paroled in March of 2002. He ended up serving like a quarter of his term.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Stop it, everyone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But. But when he gets out, he moves to Fort Worth. He lives a super low key life because he found out while he was in prison that he had HIV.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So he ends up on January 31, 2007, he committed suicide. He slashed his wrist, sat down in a chair, and then watched TV until he bled out and died.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Holy shit. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that Eli Stutzman is the Amish serial killer. So it's not serial in the way that we would love it to be.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, listen, we don't love it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, not love it, but, like, I'm thinking Buffalo Bill when I start this story. But then it is. The thing of this is a sociopath slash psychopath who just would kill anybody that got in the way of what he wanted to do in his life. And the idea that that's coming out of, it's just like. It just fascinates me. It could be. It doesn't matter how you grew up, right? It doesn't matter where you came from if you have that thing in your brain that makes you only want to, like, win and, like, dominate people. And it doesn't matter if you're, like,

[Georgia Hardstark]

immune to fucking empathy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Empathy, Yep.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're immune to it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. You don't give a shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's crazy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You just do what you want and

[Georgia Hardstark]

then you leave so many people in your world. You know, Grant, the grandparents, horrifying these people, all of it. And you just don't fucking care.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that, again, just so everyone knows, Deadly Devotion, that was that, basically. I just told you that episode of Deadly Devotion, which I thoroughly enjoyed.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I love that. Never heard of it. Incredible. Not just the show, but, like, the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The concept.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. Okay, we're back.

[Producer or Guest Host]

Karen, do you have any updates?

I do. So there's this author named Greg Olson who's written a couple books about Eli Stutzman. And one is called the Amish Unraveling the Lies, Secrets and Conspiracy that Let a Killer Go Free. And it just basically is the deep dive into Ida's death. His book before that was called Abandoned Prayers, but also about Eli's crimes. It's a deep dive. So there's a bunch more information, the facts that have come to light in the evidence about the timeline, everything, the chronology, whatever, about this crime. So if you are into this and want to know more, Greg Olson is the author that you should look up. So with that, let's get into Georgia's story about the Springfield 3 Asia degree

[Karen Kilgariff]

and Bobby Dunbar,

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[Producer or Guest Host]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

of sleep, but you can look like

[Producer or Guest Host]

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We were just talking about this.

I mean, I've been using the Maybelline instant Eraser concealer for years, I think. Yeah, the convenience of the little spongy

[Karen Kilgariff]

swab at the top, you just dab,

[Producer or Guest Host]

dab, dab, and it's just enough so that you don't overdo it with your concealer. And mine is the pink, the 160, which is the pink color correcting. So it like brightens up your under eyes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm immediately using it.

[Producer or Guest Host]

Find your shade of instant eraser concealer at your local retailer.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Goodbye.

[Producer or Guest Host]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Beep boop. All right, listen, like, when I said that this is a clo. This is a closer, I didn't mean it was like a light hearted story, so.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not happy about it. But there's no, like, there's not a ton of like gruesome. There's no gruesome details in it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, I feel like if we ever sat down and did like a scientific pie graph or something, it would be like the one you can't get out of is dead Children.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Murdered children is the hardest.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. Okay, well then this is a little bit. All right, let me just do this.

[Jennifer Maury Caldwell]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In the. In honor of what we talked about last weekend, last week of, like, websites like Ranker and all these. Of, like, the lists that they do, this is. This is three super mysterious disappearances.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Let's do it. I'm changing the rules.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I love doing this. You can do whatever you want.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm starting with the Springfield Three. You know them. Okay. This is so. This is just weird to me because there's. There's not. Let's read about it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. The Springfield Three story begins June 7, 1992. Two friends, Susie Streeter, she's 19, and Stacy McCall, she's 18. So picture the bangs and the fucking bleach blonde hair.

[Producer or Guest Host]

They.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The two girls graduated from Kickapoo High School the day before. And so they're celebrating, like, graduation, that sort of thing. So they are seen around 2am on June 7, leaving the last of the graduation parties they had attended that evening. They were supposed to spend the night at a friend's house. But when they got to the friend's house, it was too crowded, probably with people sleeping and not sleeping. So they were like, fuck it, we're going back to Susie's house. And at Susie's house was Susie's mom, Cheryl Levitt. She's 47. She's a cosmetologist at a local salon. She's a single mother, and she's really close with her daughter. So they go back to her house. The next morning around 9am, a friend and her boyfriend go to the house to pick up because the two girls were supposed to have picked them up to go to, like, a water park for the graduation activities, blah, blah, blah. When they get there, they find the front door unlocked and they go in the house, but there's no sign of any of the three women. Each of their cars are parked outside and all their personal property is left behind, including their purses, money, keys, cigarettes, as well as the family dog, who's super agitated and locked in the bathroom.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What?

[Georgia Hardstark]

So they're like, what the fuck? The only weird thing at the scene is that the glass lampshade of the porch light had been shattered, but the bulb inside had been left intact. So the boyfriend sweeps the broken glass up to be helpful and they. While they're inside, they also answer a strange and disturbing call from an unidentified male who made sexual innuendos to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Who answered the phone.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The girl of the couple who was there. Yeah. So they went to check on them. The girl answers the phone.

[Producer or Guest Host]

So immediately.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A dirty phone call.

[Georgia Hardstark]

A dirty phone call immediately. She Hangs out up. And then another call immediately comes in again of sexual nature. And she hangs up again. Let's see. So they. Okay, okay. Another. The mother of the girl Stacy, who wasn't. Who didn't live at the house. She later goes to visit the house to be like, where's the.

[Producer or Guest Host]

My daughter.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I can't get a hold of her. And she inside, notices all three of the purses are there, of course. Sees her daughter's clothing neatly folded from the night before. She calls the police. And after placing the call, while checking the phone's answering machine, she finds a strange message left. But somehow it was inadvertently erased. The message. So we don't know what the message is, what. And what it could have meant.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And did she say what she just said? It was a weird message.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think it was like another sexual nature message. So police were very interested in the calm, believed it may have been contained. Contained a clue. But it's fucking gone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Just gone forever.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Gone forever.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because this is early 90s. Like, was it still like an answering machine with tape in it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, I think so.

[Producer or Guest Host]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We just. You rewind it. Yeah. And record over it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They still existed then.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Although there was a.

[Producer or Guest Host]

You know, that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, in our household, anyway, we got the, like call the. The answering machine became. It was just in your phone and you just basically got ordered what you wanted. Like it would take messages, but then you could also get. That's when Star 69 made its grand debut.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I remember when we had that. That like silver and black fucking message machine with a tiny cassette inside. And you would listen to a message and then you rewound the time tape and recorded over it. And then you could get new messages, but you could only get as many messages as were as could be left on that little cassette. I fucking love that machine. I thought it was fascinating.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was amazing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Jesus Christ.

[Producer or Guest Host]

Okay,

[Georgia Hardstark]

so the police aren't called for 16 hours after the women were last seen at 2am the night before.

[Producer or Guest Host]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And other worried friends and family called and visited a home that day, which means a fucking shit ton of people walked through the house during the day. Ten to 20 people walked through the house. Upon arrival, the officers noticed no signs of a struggle except for the shattered porch light. And they also noted that the beds had been slept in. So.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Had been.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Had been. So in 1997, Levitt and Streeter were declared legally dead, but their case files are still officially listed under missing. Investigators received a tip that the women's bodies were buried in the foundations of the south parking garage at Cox hospital. So in 2007, crime reporter Kathy Baird brought a man named Rick Norland, a mechanical engineer, to Springfield to scan the corner of the parking lot with ground penetrating radar. He found three anomalies, roughly the same size quote that he said were consistent with a grave site location in the foundation.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, fuck.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Two of the anomalies were parallel and the other was perpendicular. So like, kind of like crosshatched. The Springfield Police Department didn't believe the scan was conclusive enough to justify tearing up the concrete. And also said at the parking garage was completed a year after the women's disappearance, but they could have been left somewhere. Right. So it was never tore up. But people think it's there. Then Reddit's also like, here's how you're wrong. It's not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, you know, okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So then in 1997, Robert Craig Cox, he's an imprisoned. He's imprisoned in Texas as a convicted kidnapper and robber and the suspect in a Florida murder. He told John that he knew where the three women had been murdered and buried and claimed their bodies would never be found. He, in 1992, at the time, he had been living in Springfield but had alibis for the night. But it was like his girlfriend at the time who has since been. Like nobody was fucking lying about it. Yeah. He said that he would disclose to. What he would disclose what happened to the three women after his mother had died. But he knew what happened. And as of today, a couple tips a month still come in, but no one knows what happened to this Springfield three. Oh my God, these three fucking women.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that guy's mother hasn't died.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I guess not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But he's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But everyone thinks he. But everyone also thinks he's lying.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, he's just trying to get some kind of.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But a kidnapper from that neighborhood, you know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's just crazy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's super crazy. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, so the next one is. Okay, so a girl named Asha decree. I'm sorry, Asha Degree she's born. Asha is born August 5, 1990. She's a fucking normal 9 year old 4th grader from Shelby, North Carolina. Normal girl, happy family, et cetera. The night of February 14, 2000, Asha and her brother went to sleep as usual in the room they shared. Her older brother. Almost an hour later, the power went out in the neighborhood after a nearby car accident. Accident, which is creepy and weird, but isn't connected to the. To this, but I think it's just creepy. Yeah, it's restored. And then after that, her dad, Harold returns home from work. Around 12:30 in the morning, he checks on his daughter and son. Just saw them both sleeping normal. But shortly after he went to bed around 2:30am he recalls hearing Asha's bed squeak. At that point, allegedly, Asia got out of bed, took a book bag she had previously packed with several sets of clothes and personal items and left the house.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I've heard of this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. It's crazy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's crazy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She's 9 years old, leaves between 3:45am and 4:15am Two drivers saw her walking south along Highway 18 wearing a long sleeve white T shirt and white pants. And one witness reported seeing her at about 4am and said that he turned his car around because he thought it was strange that such a small child would be out at that hour. But when he circled three times, he saw her run into the woods by the roadside and disappear.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, it's just bone chilling.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

To think, say you're driving home, you went to a party, you're like, I wanna leave, I don't wanna be at this party. People are like, please just stay two more hours, blah, blah, blah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Suddenly 4am's around, you're like, 4am, I'm leaving.

[Karen Kilgariff]

As you're driving home, you're like sober, bummed, wanted to go home three hours ago. This is how I picture everything in my life. And then you're driving down a highway and see a child dressed in all white walking with a book bag. And you never stop screaming.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then you go back, you're like, what the. This is weird. You go back and you go to drive by her again and she runs into the wood, darts away. What do you do?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Call the police? You call the police site, right? You pull your car over, you leave it there, you call the police, but

[Producer or Guest Host]

you don't have cell phones.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, right. Yeah, no cell phones yet. Maybe he went home and called.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Maybe. What? Why wasn't he a rich guy with one of those crazy huge cell phones in his car? Rich guys.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because this isn't Dallas or whatever TV show they had those in. Okay, okay. And so there was. Okay. It was a rainy night too. Add that to this thing. A rainy night. And the witness said there was a storm raging when he saw her. No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, there's no way. I wouldn't think that was a ghost if I saw it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like. Cause it's so insane.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. At 6:30am that morning, Asha's mother went into the kids room to wake them up. She found Asha gone and she called the police who arrived by 6:45. 6:40am Police dogs are called to the scene. They could not pick UP Asia. So February 17, two days after the search began, candy wrappers are found in a shed in a nearby business along the highway near where Asia had been seen running into the woods. So candy wrappers, okay. Along with them were a pencil, a marker, and a Mickey Mouse shaped hair bow that were identified as belonging to her. So it's almost like she ran away at this point, it seems.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But why would a kid run away in a raging storm? That doesn't seem normal.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I bet it started raining when she was outside.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I would think, Right. Because any plan you would have, if it was raining, you'd be like, I'll

[Georgia Hardstark]

do this tomorrow for sure. Okay. A week later, after no other traces or witnesses were found, the search was called off. FBI got involved and noted she was not a typical runaway. Obviously, she. She was under 12, didn't have normal stuff such as a dysfunctional family. She didn't have bad grades. And by all accounts, she was a shy, sweet girl with close family, church, community, all this shit. She didn't even have a computer in the house. So the thing of her running away to meet someone she met online.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, that's not.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That doesn't make any sense. I mean. Doesn't make sense. Right? Right. There was no blood, no signs of a struggle or a car accident. And for 18 months, everything stalled until Asia's book bound was book bag was found during a construction project. So the backpack with her name and telephone number written inside was found wrapped in a plastic trash bag about 26 miles from her home. It was said that the bag looks carefully prepared, as if she were instructed by an adult what to pack. No. In May 2016, the FBI announced that that their reinvestigation of the case had turned up. A new witness that had come forward reported seeing a girl who resembled Asia getting into a dark green 1970s Lincoln Mark 4 or Ford Thunderbird with rust around the wheel and near where she was last seen. So a scholarship in her name is created for deserving local students. Students and family members hold an annual march each February retracing what they believe is the path that she took the night she vanished, but they don't know why. And the thing about the path she took, too, is that it's the path that her school bus took in the morning. It's not. Or like when she went to school, it's not an easily walkable path. It's almost like it was the only way she knew how to get from Certain points in town because she took it every day. Rather than. That was her purposeful plan.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, she knows if she's gonna go to say, the town library. This is the way she's gonna get this library.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is the way you go. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, it's just this weird story that is maddening. Cause it's like, who got into her ear and was like, do you wanna audition for tv?

[Georgia Hardstark]

And how come she didn't tell any of her friends? Like, oh, I met this person.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or her parents? Like, oh my God, that's maddening. And how long ago did it happen?

[Georgia Hardstark]

This happened in. It happened in 2000, man. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And she's nine. So much younger than. Yeah, that's like. That makes me think it's like someone who's like, made her. Made her believe something that she could have. Something that she normally couldn't have.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like if you meet me here, I'm giving away this pony type of shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. Fuck. It's really. And then like all of that up until that point is like, okay, she ran away from home for a certain reason, everything would have been normal. But then when they find her backpack buried, wrapped in plastic something, she ran into someone or something.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And the things in the backpack.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If somebody like that idea that she packed it specifically for a reason and it was a plan.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

God damn up. Horrifying.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, the last one has a resolution.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. Bobby Dunbar. Ready for this?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay. Bobby Dunbar was the firstborn son to Lesie and Percy Dunbar of Opiliawi, Hawaii. No, to a town in Louisiana.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Opalous.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Nope.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Louisiana in August 1912.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think Lucinda. I could be wrong, but Lucinda Williams has a song. It's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Say it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think it's Opela.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Opelossus. Opala. That must be it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or am I thinking of Naggadocious? Yeah, forget it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This song might be about Bobby Dunbar.

[Producer or Guest Host]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

In August of 1912. Oh yeah. The Dunbars took a fishing trip to nearby Swayze Lake in St. Landry Parish, Louisiana. While on that trip, little Bobby Dunbar disappears. After an eight month search, authorities found a handyman traveling through Mississippi with a boy. And it's like this crazy search with his photo everywhere, it's this missing child, blah, blah, blah, who appeared to match the description of Bobby Dunbar. The man with him, William Cantwell Walters. He claims that the boy was actually named Charles Bruce Anderson and he was the son of a woman who worked for his family. And that the boy's mother, named Julia Andrew, she had willingly granted him custody of this Boy and doesn't matter. Fucking Walters is arrested and authorities sent for the Dunbars to come to Mississippi and identify this boy that they think is their son.

[Producer or Guest Host]

Oh, okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That they think is his son. They think it's Bobby Dunbar.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do you know how much longer it was after he disappeared?

[Georgia Hardstark]

It was eight months.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So pretty quickly, upon seeing the missing son, her missing son, there's differing reports. Some say that the mother, Lessie, like, freaked out and was like, my son, and Bobby Dunbar was like, mom, you know, and they embraced. And other people said that. That the boy cried and said that and agreed that this wasn't. That his mother, you know, was someone else.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. How could those. How could there be two different exact opposite stories? Like, didn't it happen in a. In a police station? Yeah, I think there'd be an official.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, but media, man, they like to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

True.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not that they're not talking shit on media.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Everyone's great, vital, etc. Now more than ever.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So, yeah, so they're like, all right, maybe this is our kid. Let's bring him home tonight and see how it goes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is just like the changeling.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's just like the changeling in real fucking life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It happened like 30 years before.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fuck. Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can you imagine? I mean, I guess at the time you don't have photos or something, but not knowing if this person is your kid or something, not. How does that happen?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know. Well, but in the changeling, she knew it wasn't her kid and it was the cops going, no, crazy. This is your kid. Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it's also like a grief stricken mother who's like, this resembles my kid. I really want it to be my kid. They're telling me it's my kid. Maybe they're right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like your worst fear is that your child is gone forever. So anybody showing up and being like, it's me, you know?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, but he was. The kid wasn't even even like, according to certain stories, the kid was like, no, this isn't my. This isn't who I am. This is not my parent.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, you have to think of this kid that was just being driven around randomly by some dude. What was he. What was happening to him? And what kind of state of shock and freak out was he in? It's almost like you combine two people who are in shock and trauma together totally.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it's like, yeah, okay, so, yeah, you're not gonna say to, okay, the police officers. The mother's not gonna be like, no, you guys are Wrong. This isn't. You know. You're not gonna do that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I fuckin how many bad haircuts have I gotten where as it's happening, I'm like, well, you're the boss.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Looks great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I guess I don't know what I like anymore.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, that's true. So they're like, we don't know if it's him. We bring him home tonight, we give him a bath. And then the next day they're like, yep, that's okay. Based on moles and scars. They're like, it's totally our son.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All is well. So the boy goes home with the Dunbars. There's a fucking parade and fanfare celebrating the homecoming. Everyone's like, we found. You know, we found the missing Dunbar boy. And then shortly after, Julia Anderson, the mother of the boy who originally was supposed to be that wasn't Bobby Dunbar, she's in North Carolina. She arrived and you know, is like, that's actually my kid. And I didn't tell him he could take him for that long. But she goes to his. She goes to his. Hold on. Okay, okay. She's unmarried and worked as a field hand for the family of the man who had him. She said that she allowed him to take her son for what was supposed to be two day trip to visit one of the Walter's relatives and that she had not consented for him to take him for more than a few days.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. So this woman Julia is presented with five different boys. Basically a fucking boy. Photo lineup.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And the same age as her son, including the boy who had been claimed by the Dunbars. And the boy is presented. He gave no indication that he recognized this woman as his mother. Oh yeah. And she asked whether that he was the boy recovered. She's like, is that the boy you found? Like didn't totally recognize him at first either.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, what do you give a shit? Aren't you looking for your son? Why are you asking other questions?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, well, she didn't know name your son. She didn't know for sure. She was like, is that how do you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She said she was unsure at the end of it. And I'm wondering, so this kid who's supposed. Who's now is or isn't the Bobby Dunbar boy? Like goes home with his family. They have a fucking. Maybe a nice house and all this nice shit. And he sees his mother trying to get him back who's a fucking field hand y and he doesn't say anything. Maybe, yeah, you know, he's like, as sad as that is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, and also, he's. She's the one that put him in that car with that man.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

To whatever end that was, she.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He thought she didn't want her anymore, maybe, and was just like, huh, yeah. Not going back to this shit. Yeah. Okay. But she takes the boy back with her and season the next day, or I guess in the station, she undresses him. So this fucking kid is getting undressed left and fucking right by people. She then indicated a strong certainty that the boy was her son, Bruce, and not Bobby Dunbar. But of course, everyone was already like, fuck you, poor lady. That's not true. You're lying. So, of course, then the newspapers question her moral character because she had had three children, the other two of which were deceased by that point, out of wedlock. And so her claims were dismissed. Oh, yeah. But she does go to the kidnapping trial of this guy Walters and says and repeats that, you know, he didn't kidnap my son. And the court reaches the determination that the boy was Bobby Dunbar. Conclusively. They were like, period. It's not this other kid, Bruce. It's Bobby Dunbar. This guy Walters is convicted of kidnapping, and the boy remains in the custody and grows up with the Dunbar family as Bobby Dunbar, the kid who had gone missing when they went camping.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Okay, so think. Wait, this does have a resolution. We're gonna know what happens?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Pretty much.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Please, God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because this is nuts. This is like four movies combined.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because it also reminded me of the. The Wineville Chicken Coop murders. There's some death to it, too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's what.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, it's the same thing as a changeling.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The changeling. But that Chicken Coop murder story is insane.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so fucked up. But there were kids who, at the end of that, were afraid they were gonna get in trouble, so they denied that they belonged to the parents that were there to claim them. I'm thinking of those two things as two separate things, but it was basically just the end of the story where they were like, nope, that's not me. Because they thought they were gonna get, like, spanked.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, it's that crazy little kid mentality.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's so sad. Okay, so this boy is raised as Bobby Dunbar, whether or not it's him for sure. He marries, has four children of his own and dies in 1966, having lived out the remainder of his life as Bobby Dunbar.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is Guy. Okay. Years after his death, one of his granddaughters, Margaret Dunbar Cutright, begins her own investigation of the Events, because I think it was like a family fucking story that nobody wanted to talk about. So she pours through newspaper accounts, interviews the children of Julia Anderson, the woman who claimed that that kid was hers. And they actually said to her, you know, this man came and visited. Visited us. And I think it was him trying to see, like, the kid who was raised as Bobby Dunbar, as an adult, came back to the town where they lived to meet his maybe siblings. Oh. And examine the notes and evidence presented by Walters, defense attorney for his kidnapping trial and appeal in 2004. After an associated Press reporter approached the family about the story, Bobby Dunbar Jr. Consented to undergo a DNA test to resolve the issue. The test showed that the kid raised as Bobby Dunbar was 100% not related to the Dunbars.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Holy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So that poor woman that came down is like, this is my son. He got taken away from me. They were like, too late. We already. We already did the parade.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's a permanent.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Has been tickered.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Once we ticker that tape, it's over, lady. You can't go back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's just this whole thing, too. You've got to wonder, like, did the parents of Bobby Dunbar know in their heart and were okay because they just couldn't come to terms with the fact that maybe their son was dead. Did Julia Anderson, was she like, this kid has a better life now. It's. I'm fucking pissed, but.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But I'm not gonna fight that hard because he's not. These are good people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's being raised. Yeah, yeah. Who knows? Well, okay. So apparently Julia would speak of her lost son Bruce a lot and that the family always regarded him as having. Being kidnapped by the Dunbars. So they never got over it. Okay. But there is an incredible. This American Life about this case called the Ghost of Bobby Dunbar. I think it's from, like, 2004. I remember listening to it and just. I was like, painting my bedroom one weekend and then. And had to sit down in the middle of the room just to fucking listen to it because it was so powerful.

[Producer or Guest Host]

Shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So it's an incredible episode. You should definitely listen to it. And in it, Margaret Dunbar. Cutright. They kind of. They interview her through it. She expresses the opinion that the real Bobby Dunbar, the kid who went fucking camping at Swayze Lake, that he was probably eaten by an alligator back in 1912. That's what she thinks happen.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Whoa.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It kind of also reminds me of the Someone Knows Something season one, where it's like, did this kid drown or did something happen to Him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's that sort of thing too, where it's like he disappeared. Did he get kidnapped? Did he die? But she thinks that he probably drown or.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because it's a thing of like out in nature. It could be anything. You can't even. You can't even figure out, like, anything could happen. And like that idea of just an alligator going. And that it, that being it like

[Georgia Hardstark]

that happens in Louisiana. Like, yeah, those alligators are up in there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I can't believe. See, this makes anam upset because when you look up the Wineville Chicken Coop murders or watch the movie the Changeling, you should. Then there should be some. If you like this, read about this. Because that's like so fascinating.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. Old timey kidnappings and missing people fascinate

[Karen Kilgariff]

me because there was like no DNA,

[Georgia Hardstark]

no phones, barely any photographs even.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Barely. Forensics.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Producer or Guest Host]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Bobby Dunbar. The ghost of Bobby Dunbar. This American Life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Amazing. That was great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So that was three creepy missing people, insane stories.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Producer or Guest Host]

Okay, we're back. Are there any updates on this one?

So there are only updates on Asha Degree's case, which are kind of muddled. Like since 2018 through 2025, there's been like, you know, warrants that have been executed, things have been seized. There's just a lot of suspicion around this one family. But no one in that family has been arrested in connection to the disappearance. And they deny any involvement in the case.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Case.

[Producer or Guest Host]

But a $100,000 reward is available for information leading to convictions in the case. And I feel like these days when so many cases are being solved, this one is so solvable. And I feel like the clues are all there, like just waiting to be put together, you know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Producer or Guest Host]

At least there's still a tip line open. That's a really good sign that there's still like, if there's evidence out there is. If there's people that are going to talk at some point, there's a place for them to go.

And I really feel like Reddit has given this story a spotlight in a way. It's mysterious. It makes. There's no, you know, it's such a mysterious story. And Reddit has really like grabbed onto it and not let it kind of fade out of the public eye, which is great.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Cause I feel like those get solved

[Producer or Guest Host]

when there's more pressure, obviously on the investigators. And Reddit's doing that.

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Great.

[Producer or Guest Host]

Okay, so now it's time for Good Things of the week. This is a very special installment because for this one, George and I roll a clip from the live show in Dallas of our friend and very badass survivor Jennifer Maury.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Caldw.

[Producer or Guest Host]

So here's Jennifer telling her story.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Should we do our favorite thing as what happened at our first show in Dallas?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, so why don't you tell everyone?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. Fucking shut up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Is that what I sound like?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no, please. I do it all the time. No. Okay. So we had a special guest at our Dallas show, and it was really thrilling. Jennifer Mor Caldwell, who we talked about in episode 53. Was it?

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think so, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I think you said it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

51.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Somewhere in the 50s, whatever. I just put.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There's a photo of it on Instagram.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was episode 33. Essentially, it was the I Survived story that I retold of the woman who lived in the gated apartment community specifically for the security ends up waking up in the middle of night being attacked. Her power is cut, the phone's cut, a guy stabs her. And then the 911 operator stays on the phone with her. And when the security guard comes to ask to be let in, he says, don't let him in. And it ends up that the security guard was the person who attacked her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it's the craziest story she tells herself. I basically just retold her version of that story as she tells it on I Survived as an episode. We heard from her sometime after. And just saying, hi, I heard, you know, whatever. I heard this, which was a huge

[Georgia Hardstark]

thing for us, I think, you know, we just didn't expect that. And we've always kind of wondered what impact what we do has on people. And so getting that specifically from the victim of the story was. And it was a positive email was so. It felt so good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, it was really nice. And it was like someone going, I get exactly what you're doing, and I approve. And it happened to me, and I approve. So that in itself was exciting. Then she lives in Dallas, so she let us know that she tried. I think she tried to get tickets, and they were sold out.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She was so sweet. She was like, hey, I tried to get tickets to Dallas, but it's sold out. Do you think maybe. And I was like, yes, of course.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So she and her lovely family came to our shows in Dallas, and she. At the end of the show, Instead of doing hometowns, we asked her up on stage and the audience went fucking ballistic.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I fucking. I started ugly, heavy crying.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We all were crying, and I think everyone in the audience was crying. And basically she. So she. We basically want to play this moment for you. We don't want to wait until, whenever it comes up that we're going to play this live episode because it was just so cool. And so. I don't know, there's probably a lot of long silences because there's definitely moments where we're hugging or just crying or whatever. But it was just really an honor and a privilege to meet her. She's the coolest woman. She is so chill. She's a lawyer. She's got this beautiful family who all came with her who were also super cool. And she also told us backstage, the 911 operator from her story. It was his first day on the job. It was the second 911 call he had ever taken, and he. They ended up. They were lifelong friends. She danced with him at her wedding. Like he was the third person that she danced with at her wedding. You know, she. It was just the coolest.

[Producer or Guest Host]

We.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We got to meet her and talk to her.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We're honored to be part of this.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So here's that moment. Now, normally, this is the part where we do hometown, but we actually. Tonight. Tonight we have a surprise guest for you that we're very, very excited to bring out on stage.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Just a special guest that we want to introduce you guys to. Oh, there's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And you. You actually.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You actually.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's Vince. You might remember, because we talked about her case on one of our episodes, and she is here in the audience tonight with us. I don't remember the number. Oh, she's walking down right now. She has been in the audience with you this whole time. She. Her story was on an episode of I Survived. Her name.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's Jennifer Maury Caldwell right there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So much for being here.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God. I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How do you guys do this?

[Producer or Guest Host]

You can turn the lens.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hi. Hi, honey.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hi. It's nice to see you.

[Jennifer Maury Caldwell]

You guys, too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So when we did this episode where I. All I did was retell Jennifer's story from her words from an episode of I Survived because I'm lazy sometimes. I just do. I like to do stuff like that. But also because the story was so incredible and the way she told it was so incredible. It's one the of my favorite episode.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, sorry.

[Jennifer Maury Caldwell]

If you told my story so beautifully that the night I heard it, my husband and I drank a whole bottle of wine and I cried and I cried and I cried.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, God.

[Jennifer Maury Caldwell]

You. You honored me when you told my story.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you. That's so nice.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Thank you. We.

[Jennifer Maury Caldwell]

Where are those damn tissues?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Tammy J.

[Jennifer Maury Caldwell]

Is there one for Jennifer?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's all we have.

[Producer or Guest Host]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, we're just.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I get Stevens. Wait. I wiped my nose on that one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

After that episode, you sent us an email, and then we freaked out. And we couldn't believe it. Because a lot of times when we do these stories and we do this stuff, we never knew any of this part was going to happen. Like, for a long time, we did this podcast in George's apartment, talking to each other. So the idea that the person we're talking about responded and was like, yay. It was the most. It was just so exciting and so cool. And so then you emailed us, and we're like, can I come to a show when you come to Dallas? And we're like, yeah, we can get you in free tickets.

[Jennifer Maury Caldwell]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So, yeah, you know,

[Jennifer Maury Caldwell]

I'm a lawyer, and if you guys know my attack story, my attack's not part of my daily life. I can't let it be. And so I'm sitting in my office one day last September, October, and I had a lawyer say to me, your maiden name's Maury, right? And I'm like, yeah. She goes, you're attacked, right? Yeah. And she goes, oh, my God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

There was this podcast. I met you last night. Holy shit.

[Jennifer Maury Caldwell]

And it floored me. And so I went home that night and I told my husband, I think there's this thing. And so we, like, Googled and found this thing, and we sat there and listened to it, and it wasn't something I was really prepared to listen to, but I have to say again. And I listened to it again yesterday. Get ready. You talked about me like you were

[Karen Kilgariff]

my friend,

[Jennifer Maury Caldwell]

and I'm gonna cry again. It was a horrible experience, don't get me wrong.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Maury Caldwell]

But God has. I mean, God or whatever has blessed me so much.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, I've got.

[Jennifer Maury Caldwell]

My husband Gary, and my two kids are here ton.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But

[Jennifer Maury Caldwell]

so everybody here, if you ever have anything terrible happen to you, and unfortunately, too many of us will have something terrible happen to us, I hope it doesn't happen to you. The show talks a lot about anxiety. I've become a murderino. My daughter is 15, and she probably shouldn't listen to the show, but she does. On road trips, we listen to this. And anyway, if something bad ever happens to anybody out there, I hope you guys have something as. I mean, God, this has just been such a gift to have you honor me and to have people all over the world reach out to me and honor me. So thank you and what you do. We're all fascinated and horrified by these Crimes. But with the way you bring laughter, too.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What?

[Jennifer Maury Caldwell]

You could cry or laugh. Pick one. Let's laugh.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Maury Caldwell]

So thank you, guys.

[Producer or Guest Host]

Yay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thank you so much.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Amazing.

[Producer or Guest Host]

And we are back. I just have chills even thinking about that moment in Dallas and her coming on stage and the audience cheer. I mean, my gosh, it was huge.

Once in a lifetime. Also, what she was like as a person.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So warm and lovely.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Producer or Guest Host]

And so all about it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like.

[Producer or Guest Host]

Yeah, that was a real honor. And just. I mean, everybody felt it. It was such a cool shared experience.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Producer or Guest Host]

So this episode was originally titled Jesus

with a G. No, let's change it. That's terrible.

So if we did change it, we could rename it. What?

That leave me alone thing I love so much.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's you.

[Producer or Guest Host]

The do not disturb sign. What's it called?

[Georgia Hardstark]

That.

[Producer or Guest Host]

Talk about being in perimenopause. It's like that moment you couldn't think of the word do not disturb.

So right on a nice hot mic.

That leave me alone thing.

That leave me alone thing. Also very obvious. But my sister's dying. There's a lot of people that probably wouldn't like that title, but the people who knew would think it was very funny. There's Fabio of the Amish, because that horrible man is slightly attractive.

And then crier laugh. Pick one, which is what Jennifer says on stage. And we just think that one's incredible. I think that's the one.

Yeah, obviously. What if we just pick one of our dumb, random ones? Fabio of the Amish.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's. It's settled.

[Producer or Guest Host]

Forever and ever.

Okay, that's this week's episode of Rewind. Thanks for being here, you guys.

Thanks, guys. Now let's say goodbye with Jennifer from our Dallas Live show.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We are so honored to have you guys. Amazing. This means so much to us. Thank you. And thank you guys for being here. And stay sexy. Don't get murdered.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Thanks. You got it.

[Producer or Guest Host]

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[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye.