
It's time to Rewind with Karen & Georgia! This week, K & G recap Episode 16 – Blood Murder Sixteen Magic – where Karen covered the murder of Chandra Levy and Georgia detailed the murder of Sylvia Likens. Listen for all-new commentary, case updates and more! Whether you've listened a thousand times or you're new to the show, join the conversation as we look back on our old episodes and discuss the life lessons we’ve learned along the way. Head to social media to share your favorite moments from this episode!
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Karen Kilgariff
This is exactly right.
Georgia Hardstark
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Unknown Speaker
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Georgia Hardstark
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Unknown Speaker
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Georgia Hardstark
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Unknown Speaker
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Georgia Hardstark
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Unknown Speaker
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Georgia Hardstark
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Unknown Speaker
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Georgia Hardstark
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Unknown Speaker
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Georgia Hardstark
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Unknown Speaker
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Karen Kilgariff
Details.
Georgia Hardstark
That's shutterfly.com promo code MFM40.
Unknown Speaker
Goodbye.
Georgia Hardstark
Calling all thrill seekers and mystery enthusiasts. Have you checked out the new television series Cross on Prime Video? Based upon the character created by James Patterson? This is Detective Alex Cross like you've never seen him before. It's a cat and mouse edge of your seat thrill ride that will keep you guessing. Cross stars Aldous Hodge as Alex Cross, DC's lead investigator and forensic psychologist. With a serial killer terrorizing dc, Cross finds himself in a race against the clock to save the latest victim. Follow Cross as he navigates a maze of clues, uncovers dark secrets and corruption, all while someone from his past is threatening his family. You'll be rooting for Alex Cross and loving the killer soundtrack. Get ready to tune in and work the case. Watch Cross a new series only on Prime Video. Watch now. Goodbye.
Karen Kilgariff
My savior.
Georgia Hardstark
Hello, and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.
Unknown Speaker
It's our new Wednesday episode where we revisit our original episodes and kind of give you a personal recap on what we were doing and what we were thinking and how much it's all changed since 2016.
Georgia Hardstark
It's a lot, turns out. And today we're revisiting episode 16 called we're sticking with this blood murder 16 magic. And this came out on Friday the 13th of May in 2016. And that's lucky.
Unknown Speaker
I know there's a lot of witchy elements taking place here.
Yeah.
So go into the street and grab the biggest Red Hot Chili Peppers fan you can find to listen along with us right now, because we can all be Day One listeners.
Georgia Hardstark
Okay, let's listen to how we chose to start episode 16.
Unknown Speaker
We're recording.
Karen Kilgariff
Jesus Christ.
Unknown Speaker
Hey. Hi, Karen.
Hi, Georgia.
How are you?
Karen Kilgariff
Don't worry about it, ladies and gentlemen. It's my favorite murder. I'm Karen Kilgareth.
Unknown Speaker
I'm Georgia Hardstark, and we're here to.
Talk to you about murders.
Hey, you guys, do you like to talk about murder?
Karen Kilgariff
We're murder nerds.
Unknown Speaker
Turns out a lot of you like to talk about murder.
Karen Kilgariff
Turns out it's not that rare or weird.
Unknown Speaker
No, I think it's just that other people don't live in big cities where everyone talks about, you know, there's more people that you can talk about murder with. I think a lot of people are, like, the only person they know that likes murder.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah. You can't go to your mom with this shit. She's going to shake her finger at you no matter what.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. And your husband's gonna get scared of you.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah. He's gonna be like, holy shit, I married that. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
Your co workers are gonna be like, something's wrong with her.
Karen Kilgariff
She's gonna kill me in the bathroom.
Unknown Speaker
Like, why are you that into it?
Karen Kilgariff
Co workers are always that girl.
Unknown Speaker
Oh, fuck. Yeah.
Karen Kilgariff
Did you take my yogurt? I'll murder you.
Unknown Speaker
Like, I will murder you. I don't think that's interesting because my brother's best friend got murdered when he wasn't.
Karen Kilgariff
I think that's actually really mean to, like, death.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
Karen Kilgariff
Okay, well, that's perfect then. That means I never have to talk to you again. That's how I've negotiated my life personally. I test it out, scaring away. Do your eyes go wide? Oh, then I've now weeded out the week. Goodbye.
Unknown Speaker
Do you furrow your brow or jump up and down and clap and say, I love murderer?
Karen Kilgariff
That's how you pick your team.
Unknown Speaker
Totally.
Karen Kilgariff
Yep.
Unknown Speaker
That's how we found each other.
Karen Kilgariff
Did you already know that Kara Klink loves murder?
Unknown Speaker
I think she told me recently.
Karen Kilgariff
She loves it too. That's.
Unknown Speaker
She texted me and was like, I have a murder story I want to tell.
Karen Kilgariff
I have hers. You have it, and it's amazing. We're playing it.
Unknown Speaker
Do you know that there's like, I've had the best compliment is when someone you know kind of from, like, your world writes to you and it's like, I love your podcast. And you're like, I didn't even know you listened to it.
Karen Kilgariff
Yes.
Unknown Speaker
I have a few friends who are like acquaintances who've done that, and they're like, I have a story I want to tell you. And I'm like, I will. It should be on the podcast.
Yes.
Karen Kilgariff
I love it. It's. Yeah, because there's. I. I have. I've had the same experience and I kind of want to go, like, it's so nice that you would. Even the second I see somebody talking about their podcast, I'm like, turn off brain. Like, I never pay attention.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
Karen Kilgariff
Meanwhile, I have the gall to have two.
Unknown Speaker
Right. Look at us.
Karen Kilgariff
I mean, we're just.
Unknown Speaker
Are we allowed? Cause there's so many other things I'm interested in.
Georgia Hardstark
Can we.
Unknown Speaker
Let's do one more together about something totally different.
Karen Kilgariff
A different podcast. Would it have the same passion, though? Like, what? Do we have another thing in common?
Unknown Speaker
No, that's.
Karen Kilgariff
I'll see myself out. You know what it is? We could talk about vintage clothes.
Unknown Speaker
Do you like vintage clothes? Oh, okay.
Karen Kilgariff
In two months, we can talk about it a lot.
Unknown Speaker
Does anyone want to hear about fucking shopping in clothes?
Karen Kilgariff
Nope. Nope.
Unknown Speaker
There's a reason.
Karen Kilgariff
What are you gonna do? Describe them.
Unknown Speaker
It has pockets and buttons.
Karen Kilgariff
I kind of look like that one scene from Greece where they were at the dance.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. This is why. Because there's only so many vintage clothes, but there's just an infinite amount of murders.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
Because everyone's murdering.
Karen Kilgariff
God. Guys, we just did the Cracked.com podcast.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
Karen Kilgariff
Which was so awesome.
Georgia Hardstark
So much fun.
Unknown Speaker
When does that come out?
Karen Kilgariff
Shit. He told me and I don't remember. Jack, would you remember Jack's last name?
Unknown Speaker
Nope.
Karen Kilgariff
God, we're the worst.
Unknown Speaker
We are so self sufficient.
Karen Kilgariff
Today's a little bit of a lazy Wednesday.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. We hung out last night and went to a drag show.
Karen Kilgariff
Oh, my God, Jackie Beat.
Unknown Speaker
That was a great show.
Karen Kilgariff
It was so hilarious. And we told your friends about. Why did we start telling them that we had A murder podcast.
Unknown Speaker
Who?
Karen Kilgariff
Your two friends that were sitting next to us.
Unknown Speaker
I don't know. Because when people are like, what are you up to? Like, I don't know what to say.
Karen Kilgariff
Yes.
Unknown Speaker
Because everything sounds like bragging. Well, what am I up to? I don't know. Like this thing that's not that great, but sounds great.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
So I just don't know how to answer that question.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah. Saying you have a podcast is good because it definitely does not sound like a brag.
Unknown Speaker
No. Cause this is like outing yourself as.
Karen Kilgariff
A fucking self indulgent weirdo.
Unknown Speaker
So. Yeah. And it's also a nice way to test the waters. Like, are you interested in this or no? Yeah. And I think everyone is.
Karen Kilgariff
I think so. Well, because that's what we were talking about last night is everyone watches 2020 and 48 Hours. Like that's the reason they're popular shows.
Unknown Speaker
And even people who don't like Vince wouldn't put it on, but when it's on, he's like dialed in.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah. Because it's good. Some good young storytelling.
Unknown Speaker
It is.
Karen Kilgariff
So this was from. We had someone talk on the Twitter feed, which made me really happy and of course made me laugh again. Anytime people are tweet, tweet in Yakuza, tweet in any of the stuff that we can't remember while we're talking. We love it. We love that we would drive you crazy with not knowing. Sorry, it's just who we are. But it was. If I can't find this, it'll be the worst. Sorry. Now I'm gonna be doing reading, talking, where it sounds like I'm not paying attention.
Unknown Speaker
It's okay. I'll talk over you. Go to my favemurder on Twitter. That's our Twitter account. Follow us there. Of course, you guys already know about the Facebook page. We have almost 5,000 people in that frickin page. And it's like when I can't sleep at night, I just scroll through it and read all the articles people are putting up.
Karen Kilgariff
It's so good. I do the exact same thing.
Unknown Speaker
And pretty soon we're going to have T shirts. Like in the next week you're going to be able to pre order your shirt.
Karen Kilgariff
So good.
Unknown Speaker
Which is so exciting. Did you find it?
Karen Kilgariff
Yep.
Unknown Speaker
Oh, good.
Karen Kilgariff
No, no, I didn't. But I know I'm close because I remember these. It was just a woman who said that she had to look up when I was talking about the O suppressive persons as well. That we could not think of that phrase when we were talking about Scientology, but lots of people could think of it and told us, which we love. That there was a woman who looked up the thing that I called, like ground hypnosis. I completely made up the title for it.
Unknown Speaker
It sounded great. It's for when people. When pilots are in the sky, they can't look at the ground. Cause they'll just instinctually just drive the plane into the ground.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
And she said what it was called.
Karen Kilgariff
Yep. I can't find it. God damn it. Edit this part out, can we? Really sorry.
Unknown Speaker
If you want. Unless you can find it.
Karen Kilgariff
This is my challenge to find it in five seconds.
Unknown Speaker
Five, four, three.
Karen Kilgariff
I mean, two.
Unknown Speaker
It's like, all right.
Karen Kilgariff
I just retweeted it. I thought, but maybe.
Unknown Speaker
But maybe I've been secretly going in and deleting tweets that you. Just for fun. Just for fun. Here's a quote from us. I love when people quote us. I know because I'm self centered.
Karen Kilgariff
It's a powerful feeling.
Unknown Speaker
Here's the thing I know about skateboarders. They're massively choked. They don't murder families, said Karen. I love it. Oh, someone said, quote, worst case scenario, he eats the baby. I don't remember.
Karen Kilgariff
That was you.
Unknown Speaker
That was me.
Karen Kilgariff
That was you. That you would never let Albert Fish babysit your kid.
Unknown Speaker
Right. By the time you're old, you're either completely evil or an American hero. Oh, no, wait. Oppressive persons. Someone said. You said you're in a cult. Call your dad.
Karen Kilgariff
That's when I was just letting Scientologists know how it is.
Unknown Speaker
Oh, my gosh. It's the best it.
Karen Kilgariff
I can't. I can't find this. I'm sorry.
Unknown Speaker
That's okay. Let me see another quote. How about, Shelley Miskovich is missing as.
Karen Kilgariff
Missing as girl.
Unknown Speaker
Pretty great.
Karen Kilgariff
That is a good one.
Unknown Speaker
I love that I talk like that. My mom would hate it. All right. Oh, my God.
Karen Kilgariff
My father. The amount of Fs and Ss that I say on this podcast, my father would be limit.
Unknown Speaker
Oh, do you want to talk about our new favorite show?
Karen Kilgariff
Sure.
Unknown Speaker
The Affair.
Karen Kilgariff
No, you mean the Family.
Unknown Speaker
That's what I meant. I hate the Affair.
Karen Kilgariff
The Affair is a bore, right?
Unknown Speaker
It's a trash heap. It's not even a bore. It's like. It makes me angry. How? Just vapid and stupid. Every single person is on it. And I don't care about you guys. And you fucking deserve each other.
Karen Kilgariff
You have to go on. I think they're from a while back. John Levenstein on Twitter was doing like, basically live tweeting the affair. And it was literally like, will he finish his book? We just don't know. Like, he was pretending that those plot lines were exciting, and it was really hilarious.
Unknown Speaker
Oh, I just wanna kick them all on the vaginas.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah, I didn't. I didn't watch it because I don't care if people have affairs or not. I feel it's none of my business. But yes, the Family.
Unknown Speaker
Oh, my gosh. So someone on the Facebook group was like, in a comment was like, has anyone watched the Family? And I need a new binge watch show. So I was like, I'll check this out.
Karen Kilgariff
Joan Allen.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
Karen Kilgariff
The guy from Friday Night Lights. That's super cute.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
Karen Kilgariff
And like, Sorensen, who's the cute.
Unknown Speaker
Oh, that's. Oh, that's what? He's from the Big Brother.
Karen Kilgariff
Yes.
Unknown Speaker
It's from Friday Night Lights. Yes. I was wondering. I couldn't play as him. Gosh, he's cute.
Karen Kilgariff
He's a super cute guy that dated the coach's daughter and.
Unknown Speaker
Yes. Oh, and he, like, ran away and shit. Yes. He is very cute.
Karen Kilgariff
He's beautiful. He's so weirdly beautiful. He's, like, plain and beautiful at the same time.
Unknown Speaker
And he's got that, like, skater, like, bad boy look to him.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
Like you want to fix him.
Karen Kilgariff
Yes. In this. But that's how good of an actor he is. Because in Friday Night Lights, he was like, the little abandoned boy that was being raised by his grandma and trying to be a good football player, which was, like, heartbreaking.
Unknown Speaker
You want to take care of this fucking. Yeah.
Karen Kilgariff
Cause he's got those big eyes.
Unknown Speaker
Oh, my God. So here's the plot, which is like my dream plot of anything ever is a kid goes missing at 8. Fucking I love kidnappings. Come 10 years later, comes home, Stephen Stainer. What's he from?
Karen Kilgariff
Stephen Stain. That's the real life thing that really happened. Right. These are my theories. I'll just shout out what I think they're basing it on.
Unknown Speaker
Okay. Cause it's a lot of, like, true to life shit.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
The kid comes back. Is it really the kid or is it not the kid? Where has he been?
Karen Kilgariff
That's the documentary. The imposter.
Unknown Speaker
Yes, exactly. Does someone know something? Does someone not know something? There's, like, suspicions.
Karen Kilgariff
That's the podcast. Does someone know something? Sorry.
Unknown Speaker
Is the cop fucking the dad? Yes, but that's not a spoiler alert because you found that out immediately. Yeah. It's so great. And what I love about it is that the Biggest bombshell in the show doesn't happen until, like, few episodes in.
Karen Kilgariff
Oh, my God. No, they keep. They just keep. I think they did a great job of, like, understanding that these days people need more than just one, like, storyline like that.
Unknown Speaker
Right.
Karen Kilgariff
And folding in things that are fascinating and possibilities. Like, they've basically made it the most dramatic possible show.
Unknown Speaker
Because then you want to go back and be like, I watched it from an angle of thinking this was happening. And the whole time I didn't know this other thing was happening. So I wanna go back. You'll understand when you watch it. I wanna go back and see everyone's reaction now that I know they know what's going on. And the flashbacks are great. It's all these, like, present day, 10 years ago, like, who got kidnapped? Oh, my God. Andrew McCarthy.
Karen Kilgariff
Oh, my God.
Unknown Speaker
He plays like, the town rapist creep who gets exonerated when the kid comes home because he got tried and convicted for the murder of this kid. Who. And he is the best.
Karen Kilgariff
And went to child. Went to jail as a child molester murderer, which is bad news.
Unknown Speaker
But he is into kids. You know what I mean?
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah. He's got some problems.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. He is such a good creep.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah, he really is. He's got kooky eyes.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. I'm happy to see him back in the acting world. He directed an episode.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
The flashbacks are incredible.
Karen Kilgariff
And there's nothing I love more than a secret. A buried room in the woods.
Unknown Speaker
What would you do in there? How would you get out?
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah. And how crazy would you go? And how terrible.
Unknown Speaker
Okay, here's my problem with it. The police officer doesn't know how to police the lady. Yeah.
Georgia Hardstark
She is the worst.
Unknown Speaker
She should have been immediately fired after he gets exonerated. A. Yes.
Karen Kilgariff
Everyone finds out he would have been.
Unknown Speaker
Fucking the dad, immediately taken off the case. And you're still on the. Like, so much of the cop shit is such bullshit. I can't. She, like, shoots someone who's unarmed. She. Nothing happens. Yeah, I.
Karen Kilgariff
But that actress played Daughter Maitland in Boardwalk Empire and she was so incredible.
Georgia Hardstark
You're killing.
Unknown Speaker
Like, I'm always like, I know that face from somewhere. Yeah, that's what she is.
Karen Kilgariff
I had to look her up because I was like, I know who that is. And it's. She has. She had credit for. With me and I didn't know why. And then I looked it up and I was like, it's fucking daughter.
Unknown Speaker
I was like, this must be her first role I've never seen. You know, I don't know Shit.
Karen Kilgariff
I just hate. It's. I love it all. It's great. But I have the same problem with this that I did with the killing. I don't give a fuck if people are running for office. I don't want to know about their stresses. I think it's the most boring thing possible.
Unknown Speaker
It's.
Karen Kilgariff
It makes me crazy. So it's like, we've got the big speech tonight. There's nothing more boring than running for office.
Unknown Speaker
And my thing is, too, like, you guys are wealthy.
Georgia Hardstark
Just stay home and chill.
Unknown Speaker
Like, in my life.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah. Don't power through it by continuing to run for, like, state senate.
Georgia Hardstark
Stay home with your.
Unknown Speaker
Like, if I would. If I were the mom and my kid came home 10 years later, I'd be like, we are fucking staying home.
Karen Kilgariff
Together for at least a week.
Unknown Speaker
At least a week. And bonding.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
Also, we're already rich. Who wants to be fucking mayor?
Karen Kilgariff
I mean, ridiculous.
Unknown Speaker
Don't you know about, like, cooking and hanging out at home and, like, being a good parent and, like.
Karen Kilgariff
Or that if you go through a major life trauma, you are allowed to stop doing the thing that you're doing for an indeterminate amount of times so that you don't have a nervous breakdown. Yep, yeah.
Unknown Speaker
Yep. Yeah, I get it.
Karen Kilgariff
There's a couple flaws, but overall, it's very entertaining.
Unknown Speaker
The cop part is so huge for me that I almost can't. I almost can't.
Karen Kilgariff
But the sister is played by Alison Pill, who is one of the greatest actors.
Unknown Speaker
What is she from?
Karen Kilgariff
She. Well, Scott Pilgrim. She was the girl who was the drummer in Scott Pilgrim.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, she's great in that.
Karen Kilgariff
But she was on an episode. What was that In. In Treatment. Did you ever see that show?
Unknown Speaker
I never got past the first episode, but I know it was supposed to be great.
Karen Kilgariff
With Gabriel Byrne. Her episode of it is so good that I was like, oh, my God, this actress is so good. And then I just started seeing her in a bunch of stuff.
Unknown Speaker
I need to go back and watch it.
Georgia Hardstark
And the little girl who plays her.
Unknown Speaker
In the flashbacks, the two of them. I mean, now when you see flashbacks and you're like, come on. Or you're like, they hired her because she looks like her, but she's a terrible actress. It's like one of the two. This girl's great.
She's great.
It looks like her.
Karen Kilgariff
Well, and also, I feel like. Because Joan Allen plays the mother, and I feel like Joan is probably in a position where she got to call at least a couple of the shots in this situation of how the show was set up. You get Matt Sorensen, you get Allison Pill, you get that British actor who's in everything in England and is now on this show.
Unknown Speaker
Which one is he?
Karen Kilgariff
He was on.
Unknown Speaker
I don't know. Which one is he in the show?
Karen Kilgariff
Oh, the dad.
Unknown Speaker
I knew he had an accent that was bothering me. Cause it was coming out a little bit and it's like, well, fine, he cannot. He can be from England when he was a kid. But for some reason, it's like, that bothers me.
Karen Kilgariff
Well, you know, they always give British actors credit. Cause they' much better than American actors on the whole. But often time it. You have to have a good ear to be able to do a convincing American accent.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
Karen Kilgariff
And we. I think most people are like, of course he can do it. And then they're just like, well, every once in a while they'll drop an R or do a weird thing. Exactly. And then you get pulled out of it.
Unknown Speaker
I do, but then I'm like, he can have been from Germany or from fucking England or from, like, Australia. And it does like. I know I need to just get out of my head.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah. But it does take you out of it. I just love that guy. Because he has been working consistently for easily 30 years. He's in every everything in England.
Unknown Speaker
That's awesome.
Karen Kilgariff
For all my BBC obsessive television watching, he's just like, oh, he's in every other thing.
Georgia Hardstark
Okay, we're back from the past. And this one is so interesting to me because this is a turning point for us, this episode, because we mentioned that we were on the cracked podcast. The cracked.com live podcast with Jack O'Brien.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. And that is where people found us for the first time.
That's right.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah, that's right.
Georgia Hardstark
This is like the moment when suddenly it was, oh, shit, what the fuck?
Unknown Speaker
Because of crack.com podcast.
Yeah, that's right. Jack O'Brien's having us on his podcast was truly a next level. Kind of like, you're coming up here now thing. Jacqueline O'Brien is one of the loveliest human beings. We saw him at the iHeartRadio Awards.
That's right.
But anyway, it was nice to see him full circle like that.
Yeah. So I don't know, to me, like.
Georgia Hardstark
This kind of just gives me chills a little bit. Because it's like, all right, buckle the fuck up. Karen and Georgia, you guys have no idea what's about to fucking happen.
Unknown Speaker
We don't know what's going on. We're just delighted that the Facebook group has 5,000 people and people are starting to learn how to do memes personalized to the show.
Georgia Hardstark
That's right.
Unknown Speaker
I love it.
And there were some really good ones.
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
This was like the start of like.
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, we could take these quotes that other people are telling us. We say, turn it into merch.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
It's just like. Which is always where my brain is, of course.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
Start a third and fourth business. Why not?
Karen Kilgariff
It's a good idea.
Georgia Hardstark
Out of my personal bank account. That's a great idea.
Unknown Speaker
For tax purposes.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
Just keep a little running, notepad. We'll be fine. And we were, ladies and gentlemen.
Karen Kilgariff
We were.
Georgia Hardstark
We were.
Unknown Speaker
We actually were.
Georgia Hardstark
All right, well, let's listen to Karen's story from episode 15. This is like one of those classic ones that you look back on and you're like, how did it turn out this way? It kind of reminds me of Lacy.
Unknown Speaker
Peterson in that way where it's like.
Georgia Hardstark
Oh, everything was handled wrong and the.
Unknown Speaker
Media and the world was watching.
Georgia Hardstark
Right.
Unknown Speaker
And the media and public are like.
Georgia Hardstark
Partly to blame for that and. But so are the police who mishandled it.
Unknown Speaker
You know, every angle and step. It was a very flawed time, I think. And it's. We've talked about this a lot. It's the media we cut our teeth on.
Right.
It's the insensitive kind of salacious news media. I would say.
Georgia Hardstark
Victim blaming.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
Karen Kilgariff
Built that. Yeah. So we are kind of like later.
Unknown Speaker
On when you look back, you're like, oh, no more do we have these blind spots.
Georgia Hardstark
All right, well, here's Karen covering the murder of Chandra Levy.
Unknown Speaker
Today's episode is sponsored in part by Acorns.
Georgia Hardstark
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Unknown Speaker
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Georgia Hardstark
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Unknown Speaker
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Georgia Hardstark
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Unknown Speaker
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Georgia Hardstark
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Karen Kilgariff
Is it me first?
Unknown Speaker
I think so. What's our theme this week?
Karen Kilgariff
Karen the theme is let's not do themes anymore because they paint us into a corner and make us do it all wrong.
Unknown Speaker
I think when we don't have an idea of what we want to do. Let's, for the next couple ones, not do a theme.
Karen Kilgariff
Let's play fast and loose.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. And then if I have one that I want to talk about and you don't have one, I can be like, okay, well, here's the theme that will work with this.
Karen Kilgariff
We could also go into a realm at some point where we assign each other.
Unknown Speaker
Ooh, I like that. I like an assignment.
Karen Kilgariff
I wish you guys could have seen her face. She genuinely liked that idea.
Unknown Speaker
I lit up those.
Karen Kilgariff
You already have very big eyes. And they just went like three times bigger.
Unknown Speaker
Ooh, am I scary.
Karen Kilgariff
Ooh, werewolves.
Unknown Speaker
London, is that your murder? Werewolf.
Karen Kilgariff
Those London werewolf martyrs. No, mine is. And interestingly enough, happened in the year 2000.
Unknown Speaker
Oh, my. Every single murder from now on for you was going to have happen in the year 2000.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah. Shipman didn't really. Didn't really serve the purpose it was supposed to. So now it's all going to be makeup work. That's actually how my whole life is. I fuck up something and then I'm constantly making up for it long past the time when anyone's interested, putting more.
Unknown Speaker
Effort into it than you would have had to if you had just done it the first time correctly. The first time. I get that.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah. Oh, guys. Hi. This week, my favorite murder is the murder of a young woman named Chandra Levy.
Unknown Speaker
Hey, this is a fun one.
Karen Kilgariff
This was crazy.
Unknown Speaker
I also ant turns crazy.
Karen Kilgariff
And this is a. I find this as a fascinating. I just talked total shit about. No one cares about when you're running for office. And this is all about, like, politics stuff.
Unknown Speaker
Totally.
Karen Kilgariff
But it's the part that I actually believe you can cut straight to if you think a congressman has murdered somebody. Because I'll believe you.
Unknown Speaker
Oh, always.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah. So I don't want to know.
Unknown Speaker
I think everyone will.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah, right. Because talk about power hungry sociopaths.
Unknown Speaker
Well, that's the thing is like, that's the thing of. They want it to be someone crazy and huge. They don't want it to be some fucking dipshit who doesn't. Whose life isn't worth half of this girl's life.
Karen Kilgariff
Right.
Unknown Speaker
They want it to be some powerful. Maybe there's like the government behind it dark. Right.
Karen Kilgariff
Something dark. She found out a government secret. Then they had to kick. Yeah. It could just go super crazy. And I remembered because I had a lot, you know, a lot of big ideas and judgments and what I actually thought and even in remembering it before I did the looked anything up was like, oh, yeah, I think he really did it. And they just couldn't pin it on him. And then I remembered there's a movie called Absolute Power. It's a Clint Eastwood movie from 1997 with Gene Hackman. Do you remember this? Where he is a cat burglar, he's like a jewelry thief. And he goes to rob this apartment and he finds a safe room and that has like a one way mirror. And he's in there stealing diamonds. And then the people come back, so he has to shut the door and hide. And he witnesses the President murdering his mistress.
Unknown Speaker
Fuck, that's cool.
Karen Kilgariff
Then he, while he is trying to figure out a way to expose it, the President's whole team, including Judy Davis and the guy that always plays that, played the president on 24. Dennis. Doesn't matter.
Unknown Speaker
He doesn't want to remember this. If you don't remember it, you're fucked.
Karen Kilgariff
Sol. Basically, they go about covering it all up, and it just makes it so believable when they start pulling people that could be accused of it the way that they will do it to clean up a massive thing like that.
Unknown Speaker
So here's my problem with that, though. If you have a safe room in your house, you probably also have an alarm system.
Karen Kilgariff
Yes.
Unknown Speaker
Set up. So how do you even get in in the first place?
Karen Kilgariff
Oh, I think there's a scene where he's like undoing the alarm system. Okay, got it. Beep, boop, boop. Yeah. And then it's Clint Eastwood whispering to.
Unknown Speaker
Himself in a gravelly voice, tiptoeing.
Karen Kilgariff
So that's what was in my mind. And that was this. That was three years before this even happened.
Unknown Speaker
Okay.
Karen Kilgariff
So In October of 2000, Chandra Levy, who was originally from Modesto, California, who went to San Francisco State, she was a Bay Area girl, which means you're.
Unknown Speaker
Gonna get fucking murdered.
Karen Kilgariff
That's right. That's how we do it. She had a degree in journalism from San Francisco State, and she went to USC to get her master's in Public administration. So In October of 2000, she went to D.C. to become a paid intern for the Bureau of Prisons, a thing I didn't know existed until just today. I immediately assumed it was the FBI and kept moving until later on they brought it up again. And I was like, oh, shit, that changes it.
Unknown Speaker
Corporation, Federal money.
Karen Kilgariff
Bureau of Prisons. How much money do you people make? Jesus. So her internship was abruptly terminated in April of 2001 because her academic eligibility was expired in December 2000. So since she had already completed her master's degree Requirements. So she was planning on going back to California in May 2001 for her graduation at USC. So on May 6th of 2001, Chandra Levy's parents call the D.C. police and say, we can't get a hold of our daughter. She hasn't called us, and we can't contact her for five days. And that's completely, like, not normal, and we need your help. So they flew out to D.C. yeah. And, you know, they start talking to the police. In interviews with the police, her father tells them that she's been having an affair with a congressman.
Unknown Speaker
How does he know that?
Karen Kilgariff
I guess she told her parents, so. Which I think is kind of good. It made me happy that they knew about her life.
Unknown Speaker
At least she told her best friend. And the best friend was like, when she was missing or something.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah, maybe. Said, this is what I think you.
Georgia Hardstark
Guys need to know.
Unknown Speaker
You guys never keep secrets because then they can't find out who murdered you.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah, that's right. But then again, don't keep a diary. There's a lot of conflicting messages on this podcast. You have to stay with us, keep a word, document.
Unknown Speaker
The truth will be revealed eventually. Eventually. We have a plan.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah, there's a long term, five year plan for this podcast. So Chandra Levy's mother, I mean, father, tells the cops, you need to look at Congressman Gary Condon because they've been having an affair. So on May 10, the police get a warrant to search her apartment, and they find her purse with her id, her credit cards, all her good stuff. Two suitcases that are. Suitcases that are half packed. Her answering machine's full. There were two messages from Gary Condit on the answering machine. And when a police sergeant tried to examine her laptop, he inadvertently corrupted the Internet search data as he was not a trained technician.
Unknown Speaker
You fucking idiot. I bet he got in trouble like she should have on the family.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah, that's. I hope he got in trouble, because it took them a month to fix it. It was the year 2000. So they finally are able to access what her last searches were on that computer. And it was on May 1, and it was for Amtrak, Southwest Airlines, Baskin Robbins, Gary Condent, a weather report. And then the very last one was at 12:24 for the Pierce Klingle mansion, which is the park office building for Rock Creek Park. So basically another month goes by. So this is two and a half months now from when she's reported missing. They finally searched this park.
Unknown Speaker
Wow.
Karen Kilgariff
And it's by her house. Yeah, I think it was. They said within 4 miles 30 cops search the park and they don't find anything. And then they search it again, like a couple weeks later and they don't find anything again. They go to talk to Gary Condent. He denies any knowledge of knowing what happened to her. And the Levy family is now talking to the press themselves. This is how it always goes.
Unknown Speaker
I remember when this shit broke and it was like fucking heavy.
Karen Kilgariff
It was crazy. And the Levy family tells the press they think that Gary Condit has something to do with her disappearance. So now it's on like Donkey Kong because we've got a seat of congressmen. Is that what you say? They're seated, sure. Like an in place working congressman who's having an affair. He's married. This girl is in her early 20s and an unpaid intern, or no paid intern, sorry, a paid intern that he's having an affair with. Not the only woman he's having an affair with. Wow.
Unknown Speaker
As is later revealed, powerful hungry men.
Karen Kilgariff
So this is the kind of story that at the time this was pre 9 11, obviously this is pre 24 hour news cycle. So this was back when, you know, CNN was its own cable channel. But they would be like horse rescued out of a ravine, you know, this plane crash, only two, it was a biplane, only two people. It was like that kind of stuff. And then when big stuff like this hit, it would go all day and night. So it was different than it is now that people are used to. It would just be like, here we are, all the alarm bells are ringing. So the D.C. police chief announced on May 22, 2002. So this is. Oh, sorry, I was just going to say in July 2001, Fox News opinion poll of 900 people, 44% said they believed that Gary Condon had something to do with Chandra Levy's disappearance.
Unknown Speaker
Based on no evidence. Right.
Karen Kilgariff
Based on nothing. And 51% of people said that they thought he acted guilty. And I think this also had something to do with the fact that, you know, the story broke probably at the end of May, beginning of June. This is a whole month and nothing's happened. So now you're just letting people stew and simmer and speculate and watch the.
Unknown Speaker
Same fucking news over and over and over. Like, same coverage, the same these beautiful photos of her and this, you know, this fucked up senator.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah, and like, and just the people want answers. They want something totally. So on May 22, 2002, the police chief announces that skeletal remains matching Levy's dental records have been discovered by a man walking his dog and looking for Turtles in Rock Creek park.
Unknown Speaker
To two years later.
Karen Kilgariff
Yes, Two years later to the month. I want to see a picture of the man who was looking for turtles.
Unknown Speaker
I mean, immediately. Guilty.
Karen Kilgariff
Is he guilty or is he a big man child that had his whole life ruined because he stumbled upon a dead body?
Unknown Speaker
Great question.
Karen Kilgariff
And it was down a hill, down a hillside, in, like, a ravine. So detectives found bones and personal items scattered but not buried in a forested area along a steep incline, including sports bra, sweatshirt, leggings, tennis shoes.
Unknown Speaker
Man, bitch was going for. Not bitch. Chish was going for a fun jog in the afternoon. Yep. Daylight.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah. So on June 6, after the police completed their search, private investigators hired by the Levies found her shin bone with some twisted wire about 25 yards from the other remains.
Unknown Speaker
Wow.
Karen Kilgariff
So. So there's fucking major evidence that is right nearby that these cops do not find.
Unknown Speaker
Wow. And after two sweeps of the park.
Karen Kilgariff
Yes.
Unknown Speaker
I want to see the spot, like, off of the trail where she was found. You know what I mean? Like.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
Is that a busy trail? Is it not? I mean, and then logic of when people get rid of bodies is they throw them downhill, they're not going to carry them uphill.
Karen Kilgariff
Right.
Unknown Speaker
So you need to look down every hill.
Karen Kilgariff
Yes. Well, there's all kind. I mean, and also you. Nowadays, they do it and you see it all the time, where if there is a body, they have then, like, taped off, you know, 500 yards around the outside.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
Karen Kilgariff
You don't. The idea that it's 25 yards away and that's just like. Oh, oh, well.
Unknown Speaker
Well, that just shows that a person isn't, you know, because someone who is experienced in finding human remains would know that animals would have scattered the bones.
Karen Kilgariff
You need to look after where two years.
Unknown Speaker
And those bones do matter. It's not like it's like, well, it's a shin bone. It doesn't matter because it had wire around it. You can find out where the wire came from.
Karen Kilgariff
Oh, no, it totally mattered because the police chief was quoted as saying, it's unacceptable that these items were not located. Which is like, well, that's all well and good, but now we're after the fact where those PIs weren't hired. Which is another thing that points to that thing of like, you gotta be rich to get any justice in this country. Because if there weren't hired private investigators, that would have never been found.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
Karen Kilgariff
So the D.C. police claimed that they would have discovered Levy's body earlier if not for a miscommunication regarding the scope of the search commanders had ordered the search within 100 yards of each road and trail, but searcher searches were focused within 100 yards of roads only, resulting in the body remaining undiscovered for a long period of time. Makes no fucking sense. You're searching a park, you clearly check trails. That's what people walk on in parks.
Unknown Speaker
Totally.
Karen Kilgariff
IT stuff doesn't even make sense. And also the fact. I mean, this clearly is just totally mishandled because at this point, like, you let somebody touch a computer that clearly will have vital information on it that puts you behind a month, and then you do a search where you basically kick some leaves around the park and go home, and you're like, no, sorry.
Unknown Speaker
And in the meantime, this dude's entire career is over and, like, ruined.
Karen Kilgariff
Yep.
Unknown Speaker
Did he sue? Okay, tell me more about how.
Karen Kilgariff
Well, the other thing, too, is that there are theories that the body got dumped after the police searched. So she may not have been there the first time around, but it seems doubtful if they didn't even search off of trails. You know, it didn't seem thorough or like they even kind of knew what to do. Anyway, so in the autopsy, the coroner found damage to her hyoid bone, which is the U shaped bone in the back of your neck that supports your tongue. I'd never even heard of that before. Which suggests strangulation.
Unknown Speaker
Okay, I didn't know. Yeah, I know. There's a. That little bone.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah. If that's damaged, it's like you've been squeezed. But there's no conclusive evidence because the body was outside for two years. So, of course, then in September 2001, D.C. police and federal prosecutors contacted by the lawyer of an informant in a jail, saying that they know who Levy's killer is. And he says a man named a 20 year old illegal immigrant from El Salvador named Ingmar Gwandi. I'll just say that's how you pronounce his last name. Who he shared a cell with, told him Condit paid him $25,000 to kill Levy. Whoa. So the investigators ruled this story out because Gwandique was in jail because he'd admitted to assaulting two women in Rock Creek Park.
Unknown Speaker
What?
Karen Kilgariff
Huh. So.
Unknown Speaker
Which they ruled him out. Okay.
Karen Kilgariff
No, they ruled out Gary Condit paying this guy.
Unknown Speaker
Okay.
Karen Kilgariff
Because they'd already had Gwandique in jail because he'd already attacked two women with knives and raped them in that part.
Unknown Speaker
That sounds like a pattern.
Karen Kilgariff
It seems patterny to me.
Unknown Speaker
It does.
Karen Kilgariff
So it turned out that Gwandique had Failed to show up for work on the day of Levy's disappearance. And his former landlady recalled his face appeared scratched and bruised at the time. So he gawandi, took a polygraph, failed, but he didn't speak English. And the polygraph administer person administering the polygraph didn't speak Spanish. Okay, so yeah, question mark. And this was the only story in the news. And then 911 happened and Gary Condit was like, thank you Jesus, everything's going my way.
Unknown Speaker
Finally. Wouldn't it have been great if they had? But if, I mean if a 911 hadn't happened.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah, you know what, now that you bring it up, it would have been great.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. But then also if Gary Connon had had a chance for the big story to be that he didn't do it, he would be a fucking. Well he would still have been fucking 20 year old girls.
Karen Kilgariff
True. But you know, you don't go to jail for that.
Unknown Speaker
No, but you're still a sleazeball.
Karen Kilgariff
I mean he's a fucking politician.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
Karen Kilgariff
So basically it became a cold case for years. Of course, Gary Condit lost his reelection and left office at the end of his term on January 3, 2003. So in 2005, our buddy, investigative journalist Dominic Dunn was on Larry King and he said he believed Gary Condit knew more information about the case than he'd been disclosing.
Unknown Speaker
Dun dun, dun, dun dun dun. Sorry.
Karen Kilgariff
Dominic Dunn, I love it. So Gary Condit filed two lawsuits against Dominic Dunn, Dominic Dunn, forcing him into an undisclosed financial settlement for one. And the other one, which was a slander case, was eventually dismissed because, quote, the context in which Dunn's statements were made demonstrates that they were part of a discussion about speculation in the media and inaccurate media coverage. So they were actually talking about the case itself and how, you know, how that happens or like how things become witch hunts.
Unknown Speaker
That makes sense.
Karen Kilgariff
Sense. The media were criticized for their rush to judgment in on this case and sometimes blatantly suggesting that Condent was guilty of murder. There were reporters that were camped out in front of his Washington apartment who were quoted as saying that they would stay there until he resigned. So it was a legit witch hunt.
Unknown Speaker
Against him, that politician thing. Like the fact that people like, I hope for both of us and never in our lives do we have the experience of having reporters camped outside of our fucking house, dude. Negative or positive?
Karen Kilgariff
Well also because they can just take any little seed of anything or one person walking by and going, oh, I knew her.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
Karen Kilgariff
I mean anything could spin in any direction.
Unknown Speaker
They could go through your trash and find like a thing that points to this thing as evidence.
Karen Kilgariff
Sure, yeah. It's crazy. And there was. In the summer of 2008, the Washington Post ran a 13 part series. I didn't read it. I can't read. It's an unlucky amount of parts, which was, quote, a tale of tabloid and mainstream press packed journalism that helped derail this investigation.
Unknown Speaker
Wow.
Karen Kilgariff
So it was basically all about that how it just was totally tried in the media. And meanwhile the cops were kind of like, didn't know necessarily what to do or what was going on and didn't have a lot to go on.
Unknown Speaker
Well, they probably followed along the media as well. And so it misled them. Them for sure. They got a swayed.
Karen Kilgariff
Newsweek magazine stated that the media may have become more skeptical of heard mentality and open to alternative suspects after the Levy case happened. That basically that changed the way people reported and reacted like the journalism reacted to cases.
Unknown Speaker
And wait, in a positive way or a bad way?
Karen Kilgariff
Well, I think in a positive way of just being aware that that's what they would do for the story.
Unknown Speaker
You're affecting the actual outcome and the person's gonna get caught.
Karen Kilgariff
That they basically were like, oh, they were having an affair and imply that he killed her.
Unknown Speaker
Right.
Karen Kilgariff
So anyway, it was a cold case until 2006. And then there was a new D.C. police chief, a woman named Kathy Lanier, I'm assuming is how you pronounce it. And she replaced the lead detective on the case with three veteran investigators who had homicide experience.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
Karen Kilgariff
So who did you assign? Who did that original guy assign in the first place? What are you doing?
Unknown Speaker
Yep.
Karen Kilgariff
Also what made me reading that made me go, did Gary Condon have some kind of power over that first group of guys? To be like, how about you don't? How about you're not very accurate in your investigation of this? I mean, it's just a possibility.
Unknown Speaker
Well, this is. I want to hear who you think did it, because that if he didn't, then that's. Then why would he do that? Go on.
Karen Kilgariff
So here we go.
Unknown Speaker
Do I want to hear that?
Karen Kilgariff
I'll try to plow through this?
Unknown Speaker
No, no.
Karen Kilgariff
So in 2007, the editors of the Washington Post assigned a new team of reporters to reexamine the case. And there was a series of articles published in the summer of 2008 that focused on the failure of the police to fully investigate Guadinique's connection to the attacks in Rock Creek Park. So they had basically just seen that that guy had done that. When it turned out that that guy's story was this guy did it and Gary Condit paid him to do it, and that turned out to be a lie. They were like, all right, I guess we have no one.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
Karen Kilgariff
Instead of, oh, the guy that's attacking women and raping women in Rock Creek park, they don't look at him.
Unknown Speaker
That's insane.
Karen Kilgariff
So in September 2008, which I love this because the investigators, it's like, so journalists are the one pushing this forward. They're fucking up. They're also making good at the same time. Just different people. Investigators searched Guad's federal prison cell in California and they found a photo of Chandra Levy that he had saved from a magazine. So. So they finally arrested him in March of 2009, and he was indicted by a grand jury for kidnapping, first degree murder committed during a kidnapping, attempted first degree sexual abuse, first degree murder committed during sexual offense, attempted robbery, first degree murder committed during a robbery. And he pled not guilty to everything. In the trial, Chandra Levy's father testified that he intentionally pointed the investigators to Gary Condit. He said that he, he told authorities during the early years of the investigation his daughter would have been too cautious to jog in the woods alone. But he said that he no longer believed that to be true.
Unknown Speaker
So the father like sick him. He like fucking pointed the finger. Wow.
Karen Kilgariff
And kind of by his own admission. But see, here's the thing. So it's his own admission that he kind of saying he misled the cops, but at the same. So here's the whole paragraph on it. He said, he also said, told police that his daughter and Condit had a five year plan between them to get married. In retrospect, Robert Levy admitted, I just said whatever came to mind just to point to him as the villain. Levy added that he had been convinced that Condit was guilty until we learned about this character here. Refer. Referring to Guad.
Unknown Speaker
I mean, that makes sense because like, if you're, like if you know that you're best friend's boyfriend was a fucking abusive whatever, and she now turns up dead, you can say something like, well, once she told me she was afraid that he was gonna get that he was gonna kill her. Right. You slip that little thing in there and it makes the case for him.
Karen Kilgariff
Yep. But this, that wasn't true. Yeah, that wasn't the case.
Unknown Speaker
Right. But it wasn't him. That's why you don't do that. Obviously.
Karen Kilgariff
I mean, yeah, but it, but it makes sense why you would yes, totally. So Gary Condent, when he testified in this trial, would not answer the question, were you having an affair with Chandra Levy? Wouldn't answer the question. Said it would violate Chandra's privacy and his privacy. Well then the defense, of course, comes back with a pair of underwear with Gary Condit's DNA on it and says, pretty much have proof because they collected them from her apartment when the cops. It's evident and basically say, yeah, you did. So you don't have to say it.
Unknown Speaker
Because he should just be fucking honest.
Karen Kilgariff
He absolutely should. But he's, you know, I don't, I think he. Whatever. So then the prosecution calls the two women Guadnik raped while they were jogging in Rock Creek Park. And one testified that he grabbed her from behind, dragged her down a ravine, held the knife against her face and raped her. Which is, you know, Chandra's remains were found down.
Unknown Speaker
Totally.
Karen Kilgariff
So anyway, this guy gets found guilty. And this made me think of you because they said that Guadnik said to Levy's family during the sentencing, I'm sorry for what happened to your daughter, but insisted he was innocent. And Susan Levy, the mother, said to him, did you really take her life? Look me in my eyes and tell me which is your thing of like, just admit it. Just admit he was found guilty, sentenced to 60 years in prison.
Unknown Speaker
Wow.
Karen Kilgariff
So at that point, Condit's lawyer, Bert Fields remarked, it's a complete vindication, but that comes a little late. Who gives him his career back? And Condent retired from politics, moved with his wife to Phoenix. The wife stayed with him, apparently.
Unknown Speaker
If you're a fucking wife of a senator, you've got to be a little bit ding dong in the head, you know?
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah, you got to. You're playing the big game. You're not going to just run at the first dead paid intern comes along.
Unknown Speaker
Sorry, this is bigger picture stuff.
Karen Kilgariff
So they moved to Phoenix. This is the most depressing paragraph I've ever read off of Wikipedia. They moved to Phoenix to manage real estate and opened two Baskin Robbins franchises, which have since closed. Okay, but then remember that Baskin Robbins was one of the things that she searched on her computer. Uh huh. Um.
Unknown Speaker
What?
Karen Kilgariff
Well, guess what? Now they've asked for a retrial for this guy because they're saying everything. All the evidence against this guy does not match up to her murder, which I know I normally, and I'm sure this is just me being tabloidy myself, but he, he was attacking people and robbing them. And one woman he raped, but he wasn't Yet a murderer. So it's not like she was the sixth body that they found, you know.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, but you know, one person fights a little harder.
Karen Kilgariff
True.
Unknown Speaker
You get. You're already. Was he already caught for the two rapes when he attacked her?
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah. Like just a standard escalation.
Unknown Speaker
So. Yeah. So don't. The way to not get tried for rape when someone can ID you is to murder them.
Karen Kilgariff
To murder them. Well, on June 3, 2015, the defense said a new witness, a neighbor, called 911 at 4:37am on the last day Levy was reported to be alive to report that she heard a blood curdling scream possibly coming from Levy's apartment.
Unknown Speaker
And why didn't that come into play?
Karen Kilgariff
Right. And because that's. It's a 911 call, you can just go look it up. Yeah, but they never. The cops didn't find that person. They didn't look that hard. So.
Unknown Speaker
Or the person reported it and it got blown off. So they were like must not. They must have more information than me.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah, well, and the thing is that kind of maybe leads to the direction of. That she wasn't attacked while she was jogging and murdered in that ravine. She was murdered in her apartment and her body was dumped in that ravine after the cops looked.
Unknown Speaker
Sure.
Karen Kilgariff
Which was. Would kind of make a little bit more sense. I mean, who knows?
Unknown Speaker
Who knows? This is another case of the most obvious answer is usually the correct answer. There's a rapist in that park.
Karen Kilgariff
Yes, it's most likely him, but they are. The defense attorneys have requested Gary Condit's bank, telephone and credit card records, as well as any records from Mr. Condit's gym from around the time of the disappearance. And they're looking for the gym? I don't know, but they must know something specific, which is why I was like, huh. So they're basically going way harder into searching Condit as a suspect, which I bet you they didn't do. They were, they were trying not to before.
Unknown Speaker
Right.
Karen Kilgariff
As being good DC cops. They were just like, like it's the actual congressman. Is he congressman or senator? Congressman.
Unknown Speaker
Did I say senator throughout this?
Karen Kilgariff
Did I? Who knows?
Unknown Speaker
Accuracy. We're not known for it.
Karen Kilgariff
Looking for turtles, ladies and gentlemen. So anyway, this guy's going to get a new trial in October of this year.
Unknown Speaker
Man, that poor family.
Karen Kilgariff
Babies. Yes, it's pretty terrible. Oh, and also they have, they're asking for notes from law enforcement interviews from former Congressman Richard Armey of Texas and John Doolittle of California because they are individuals, condit said he was meeting with on one of the important days in question. So they're basically going back over and picking his shit apart to make sure, I think. To make sure.
Unknown Speaker
Well, you know what? The best fucking. Who the best witnesses are are fucking ex girlfriends.
Karen Kilgariff
That's right.
Unknown Speaker
So he's probably got a few of those.
Karen Kilgariff
Oh, there was one in that article that was like, basically air hostess, a stewardess or whatever that he told not to talk to the cops.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, I mean, I guess he would do that.
Karen Kilgariff
He had a lot of stuff to be exposed, I think.
Unknown Speaker
But that's a good one.
Karen Kilgariff
That's a cold case. I would really, really like to know the real story of.
Unknown Speaker
That's a deeper one than it seems.
Karen Kilgariff
At first because they're opening it back up. Like something actually may come of it.
Unknown Speaker
That's crazy that they're opening it back up. I mean, that makes me sad because what if it really was him and he gets off.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
And then Convent doesn't get tried because they don't have enough evidence. And so nobody. So this guy spent, you know, six years in prison.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
And that's it.
Karen Kilgariff
I know. It's crazy. I know.
Unknown Speaker
Okay, we're back.
Georgia Hardstark
Karen, any case updates on this story?
Unknown Speaker
No, there's no major case updates. The case is still unsolved. There was like, basically a cliffhanger in the way I just told that story. Ingmar Gwandique, the man accused of killing Chandra Levy, was getting a new trial. I didn't mention why. And that's because the prosecutors failed to disclose that their key witness was a jailhouse informant who'd cooperated with prosecutors in several other cases to get favorable treatment and reduce sentences. And that, of course, then calls the reliability of his testimony into question. So since that episode, episode 16 came out, prosecutors decided not to retry Guandique. They lost confidence in their case, and they basically just deported him back to his native El Salvador.
Georgia Hardstark
Wow, that's just so devastating. And not. I think, what I.
Unknown Speaker
How I remember that went like.
Georgia Hardstark
That's so disappointing.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah.
Georgia Hardstark
I wonder, like, jailhouse informants, like, where are we ever going to land with that? Because they. On one hand, it could be true and completely helpful and. And then they wouldn't come forward unless they got favorable treatment. But on the other hand, it could all be bullshit. It's just like such a hit or miss case, I guess you need more than circumstantial evidence and a jailhouse informant.
Karen Kilgariff
Yes.
Unknown Speaker
Essentially.
Karen Kilgariff
I think that's.
Unknown Speaker
That's the point, you know, some sort of Like a full corruption wash, I think would be necessary on every side. I think corruption is a huge problem in that area, obviously. I mean, I'm just literally like. I'm telling you about the episodes of.
Karen Kilgariff
Law and Order I've watched.
Unknown Speaker
I really know what I'm talking about here. But I mean, I think that's the piece. It's like, who do we trust who is actually on the side of the good? And then when you have a story like that where somebody's corroborating something, he told me that he actually did it. It's like anyone can and will say that if they're desperate enough, or you.
Georgia Hardstark
Need that held back information that the public doesn't know about. But also, it's like, you know, if they had taken her disappearance seriously from the beginning, her body might have been found sooner and DNA evidence might have been in play. But because they zeroed in on Gary Condition, they kind of didn't really take it seriously that something else might have happened to her.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, I think we've seen that happen a lot, where the case starts to follow the story in the media. And it's like the media's then shining a spotlight of. Everyone should be looking over here, and it's like that's whether or not detectives are actually doing that. We don't really know. But that's where it seems like it's like the attention and the heat goes there. Speaking of that, I, in this episode went back and forth, forth calling Gary Condit a congressman and a senator. To me, they're incredibly interchangeable. As a Gen X child of the 90s, he was a congressman, and again, he did have an affair, all those things. He was not found guilty of this crime. But in my mind of, like, growing up in the 80s and looking at People magazine, you know what I mean?
Karen Kilgariff
I would have thought he was totally guilty of it.
Georgia Hardstark
It also happened, like, really close on the heels of Bill Clinton getting caught doing nefarious things with an intern. And so I think people just, like, had this image in their mind of these senators and politicians and congressmen doing terrible things. Any of them.
Unknown Speaker
All of them.
Karen Kilgariff
Presidents? Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
They're all crooked. Every single one of them. They're crooked.
Georgia Hardstark
All right, well, I hate to do this now, but we have to get.
Unknown Speaker
Into my story, which is one of the most awful stories I've ever had to research.
Georgia covering the case of Sylvia Lykins.
Georgia Hardstark
Calling all thrill seekers and mystery enthusiasts. Have you checked out the new television series Cross on Prime Video, based upon the character created by James Patterson. This is Detective Alex Cross like you've never seen him before. It's a cat and mouse edge of your seat thrill ride that will keep you guys guessing. Cross stars Aldous Hodge as Alex Cross, DC's lead investigator and forensic psychologist. With a serial killer terrorizing dc, Cross finds himself in a race against the clock to save the latest victim. Follow Cross as he navigates a maze of clues, uncovers dark secrets and corruption, all while someone from his past is threatening his family. You'll be rooting for Alex Cross and loving the killer soundtrack. Get ready to tune in and work the case. Watch Cross a new series only on Prime Video. Watch now. Goodbye.
Unknown Speaker
All right, my favorite murder. Yes, Seamless. Favorite murder. Sylvia Marie Lykins. This one I hadn't heard about until we started the podcast and I went down a rabbit hole of click, click, clickbait on Facebook group.
Karen Kilgariff
Nice, nice.
Unknown Speaker
And it's fucking tragic. Get ready because it's depressing. Okay, so Sylvia Marie likens was born January 3, 1949. Vintage murders. Love them.
Karen Kilgariff
Love it.
Unknown Speaker
And she's from Indianapolis, and essentially she was tortured to death by Gertrude Banasiewski, Banasowski, Banis Banaszewski and her children and other people from the neighborhood.
Karen Kilgariff
I know this one.
Unknown Speaker
Fuck, man.
Karen Kilgariff
Horrible.
Unknown Speaker
So this took place. Sylvia died in October 26, 1965. So she was 16 years old. So Lichen's family moved frequently because her parents were carnival workers. The parents had financial difficulties. So in 1960.
Karen Kilgariff
And no teeth, probably.
Unknown Speaker
So in 1965, the father, Lester Likens, arranged for his daughters, his two daughters, to. To board with Gertrude, to live with her. Gertrude was 37, and she was the mother of a new friend of the two girls named Paula, who was 17. And she moved in with Gertrude and Paula and Paula's six siblings. Lester said he didn't pry, quote, didn't want to pry into the conditions of the house he reported at the trial.
Karen Kilgariff
Well done, Lester.
Unknown Speaker
I don't want to pry.
Karen Kilgariff
That's how carnies are. They're not going to stick their nose in your business.
Unknown Speaker
You're sending your kids. And he encouraged Gertrude to, quote, straighten out his daughters.
Karen Kilgariff
Great.
Unknown Speaker
Even from all accounts, these seemed like nice girls, even if they weren't. And they were paying Gertrude $20 a week to care for her, which I think the equivalent of like 150. Now she's, like, cheap.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
So Gertrude described. Gertrude was described as, quote, haggard, underweight, asthmatic, suffering from depression and the stress of several failed marriages. You gotta see this woman, this photo of her, man, she is a fucking salty bitch. Like, there's definitely a shank in her purse kind of a person.
Karen Kilgariff
And she's a single lady.
Unknown Speaker
Single at this point with like. I think there was six. Six or seven. Six, seven kids.
Karen Kilgariff
Wow.
Unknown Speaker
Aging from like 17 down to like 18 months. Jesus.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah, so she could still get it.
Unknown Speaker
Seven children. Okay. I mean, she's 37. That's two years older than I am. And she was a fucking salty old woman. Like the photo, man. These eyebrows are something else.
Karen Kilgariff
Pre waxing days.
Unknown Speaker
Oh, just shake. She just shaved them off and drew them on.
Karen Kilgariff
Oh, those are the scary ones.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. This chick is. I would not want to meet her in anywhere, even a light alley. Yeah. So she began. So when they moved in, Gertrude started taking her anger out, which apparently there was a lot of it on the Lycans girls. And they soon focused exclusively on Sylvia. So accusing her of petty crimes, the daughter, Paula, who was pregnant at the time, kicked lichens in the genitals and accused her of being pregnant and a slut, which she wasn't.
Karen Kilgariff
Wow.
Unknown Speaker
Okay. I have to fucking warn everyone that some of this. I'm not going to say all of it. That this torture is, like, intense and awful. And there's a photo of this girl and she just looks sweet and normal and it's awful. So Lykins was accused by the family that she was spreading rumors about Paula. And so this provoked Stephanie's boyfriend, Coy Hubbard, which, like, man, if that's not a fucking petty thief's name, I don't know what is. To physically attack Lycans. So this girl is getting tortured by the mother, her daughter, all the kids, the local teens, like boyfriends. It's like a hobby for them at this point. Gertrude encouraged the kids and the neighborhood kids to torment Lykins. Some of her stuff I don't want to talk about, but they said that by the time of her death, she had over 100 cigarette burns on her body. It's really fucking brutal and creepy sexual stuff. Sadist. I mean, it's fucking sadist stuff. Sexual stuff for humiliation, not for legitimate sexual reasons. You know, to break this poor girl's spirit.
Karen Kilgariff
And just because they can. Right. Like, just basically they're all a little bit fucked up and clearly, you know.
Unknown Speaker
And it escalates and it becomes. I feel like it becomes fun for them.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah, it's not like Stanford prison experiment where you have one person that's your prisoner and suddenly it brings out all the.
Unknown Speaker
You don't see them as a human Anymore, it feels like the kid, Paula once hit her so hard in the face, she broke her own wrist.
Karen Kilgariff
Fuck.
Unknown Speaker
This is like. It breaks my heart and it makes me want to become a foster parent so much more because, man, these. Some of these. Some people's fucking living situations are just insane. Insane. So the sister, little sister, attempted to contact the family, even the sister who. Older sister. And she visited the home and learned of the abuse, but. Learned of the abuse, but did not call the police or remove her sister from the phone. There was a couple people who were like, yeah, I saw some weird shit. But I never called. You know, I never called the cops. I never called anyone. I didn't want to pry.
Karen Kilgariff
Also, that was back when you could like, open hand slap other people's kids, right? Like, it wasn't that big of a deal to get punched if you were being bad.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, totally.
Karen Kilgariff
And if an adult said a kid was bad, that was the end of the story.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, that's very true.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
So the parents didn't. Didn't interfere. Let's see, she's the girl. So she stopped going to school and she was locked in the cellar.
Karen Kilgariff
Fuck.
Unknown Speaker
So shortly before her death. Okay, this is. Oh, God. So shortly before her death, Gertrude carved the words I am prostitute and proud of it on Lycans abdomen with a heated kneel.
Karen Kilgariff
Whoa.
Unknown Speaker
And a couple other things happened. It's fucking so tragic. I'm sorry if I'm bumming everyone out so bad right now.
Karen Kilgariff
That's what we're here for.
Unknown Speaker
So on October 25, 1965, the day before she died, Lykins tried to escape after overhearing Gertrude's plan to blindfold her and dump her body in the forest. But she got caught. So on the 26th, after multiple beatings, burnings, and scalding baths, Lykins died of a brain hemorrhage, shock and malnutrition. Holy. Holy. 16 years old. And then when she realized she was dead, Gertrude, like, they did this crazy thing where they called the police and Gertrude had forced. Had forced Sylvia to write a letter saying, you know, she had had sex with a bunch of boys in exchange for money and that they had dragged her away and basically they had beaten her. And it was there they had, like, she made her write a letter saying that this is what happened to her. So before the police officers left the house, like, okay, that's what happened, you know, Jenny, the little sister approached them and said, get me out of here and I'll tell you everything.
Karen Kilgariff
Oh, shit.
Unknown Speaker
Thank God she finally got Some balls.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
The whole time it makes you wonder, like, why didn't someone tell someone, A teacher or.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah, but if it's. If you have to think, if she's the salty old broad that's like there with all those kids. They were probably like the bad family of the town.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
Karen Kilgariff
I bet you there wasn't a lot of interaction or people coming in and out of that house.
Unknown Speaker
And it's this thing of like, you. You listened to authority back then.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
Someone who was an older. Older person who was in charge was the authority. And you didn't question that.
Karen Kilgariff
And you didn't. These things didn't happen. Like this would just. If you. Someone told you this was happening, you'd be like, that's disgusting. Don't ever say that again.
Unknown Speaker
It's not happening. And you probably deserve to get slapped in the face. Cause you were being bad.
Karen Kilgariff
Yep.
Unknown Speaker
Whatever.
Karen Kilgariff
Gosh.
Unknown Speaker
Okay. So during the trial, Gertrude denied being responsible for the death. She pled not guilty by reason of insanity. And four of the minors who took part in the abuse were also put on trial. So Paula, the older daughter, John, the younger son, Richard Hobbs, who was like family friend, and good old Coy hubbard, who was 15 and doing some insane stuff to her that I don't want to talk about. In his closing statement, Gertrude's lawyer said, I condemn her for being a murderess. But I say she's not responsible because she's not all here. Tapping himself on the. Tapping on the head. She's not all here. She's not responsible. That was supposed to be a better voice, but it wasn't.
Karen Kilgariff
I liked it. It was old fashioned.
Unknown Speaker
I was trying.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
So On May, in May 1966, Gertrude was convicted of first degree murder. She was spared the death penalty and was sentenced to life in prison. But of course, she didn't get life in prison. She was free on parole by 1985, having been a model prison. And she said, the Lord has forgiven me and I have peace inside. That's nice. You fucking.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah, that's the priority is how you feel.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. The Lord totally forgave you and you have peace. That's great.
Karen Kilgariff
Jesus loved what you did to that girl.
Unknown Speaker
You get it? Move on with your fucking life. But you know who doesn't? The girl you killed.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah. Five years later, haunting your basement.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. Five years later, she died of what I can only hope was painful lung cancer. Everyone else totally got out of prison and they became teachers.
Karen Kilgariff
No.
Unknown Speaker
Yep. And yeah. The boys were sentenced to 2 to 21 years and were released in 3. You guys should. Everyone should go. If you feel like murdering, you should, because you're just fucking not gonna get punished for it at all. It bothers me so much. I hope that someday in this podcast we can either, A, solve a murder or B, change sentencing laws. Can we do that, Karen?
Karen Kilgariff
Yes. I think this podcast has just enough influence and span to really get out there. Well, I mean, that is so crazy to think that one of those people that tortured a young girl became a teacher to be in charge of young girls and boys. That doesn't even make sense.
Unknown Speaker
It doesn't. It boggles the mind. And the thing about all of this shit is, is that you can't keep convincing yourself that the world is a fair and just place.
Karen Kilgariff
And who's trying to convince themselves?
Unknown Speaker
People who aren't into true crime.
Karen Kilgariff
Oh, well, that's their problem. And they're not listening anyway.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, they don't want to know. Whereas, like, people like us are so aware and so incensed by how fucked up this world is.
Karen Kilgariff
What city did that have happening?
Unknown Speaker
Indianapolis. Which is like, do people still live.
Karen Kilgariff
There in the Midwest?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
Karen Kilgariff
I also, I wonder if it's that thing of, like, the Midwestern thing of people keeping to themselves being private and not being nosy is a big thing.
Unknown Speaker
I mean, the dad didn't want to pry into the. Where his.
Karen Kilgariff
I want to know the stories of, like, were they on drugs or were they total, like, gutter drunk alcoholics? You don't just give your children away.
Unknown Speaker
I'm sure they were alcoholics.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah. If they worked at a carnival, for God's sake.
Unknown Speaker
I think it said that he had alcohol problems. And then the parents, like, hated each other, and I think they divorced. And so he was like, take, you know, the sons. There was, like, three sons in the family in the Lykins family, and they got sent to live with grandma, but the girls. Go fend for yourselves.
Karen Kilgariff
Rough. Oh, yeah. And were they locked up early? Like, why didn't they run away?
Unknown Speaker
I know. That's. That's another thing in my mind. Like, you would be so much better off living on the streets. There's no. There's no silver lining.
Karen Kilgariff
No, it goes straight. It goes straight down into hell.
Unknown Speaker
It's just one hopes that Jenny likens a little sister had an okay life. But could she have? Probably not.
Karen Kilgariff
I don't know. Unless she's one of those people that, like, became, like, a victim's rights advocate. That's. That happens a lot to people.
Unknown Speaker
That's true.
Karen Kilgariff
Because that's crazy. Also, it was the. It was the mid-60s, so this was before there was ever there was awareness about drug, child abuse or anything like that.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, that was.
Karen Kilgariff
But it was right on the edge, like what you're describing. If it was 1925, I'd be like, oh, okay. But it's so much later than that.
Unknown Speaker
Well, I mean, yeah, look at spankings. Spanking. Someday people are going to be like, that is abuse. Straight up abuse. Yeah, but I mean, I feel like up until recently it was like, yeah, that's how you punish your kids.
Karen Kilgariff
Well, and also up until recently they didn't think, what kind of a teacher wants to spank children? Yeah, like that's. That it needs to turn around where it's like, it's not about these kids behavioral problems. It's about an adult in this position who's signed up to be a teacher who signed up to be around children and can't handle themselves around children and.
Unknown Speaker
Reinforcing bad behavior in children and letting them know that the answer to a problem is physical violence.
Karen Kilgariff
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
Okay, we're back from that nightmare.
Karen Kilgariff
I guess we just don't need to.
Unknown Speaker
Say it anymore, even though it's true. But the Sylvia Likens case is one of the ones that pops into my head randomly of like the kind of suffering that she went through for no reason. Like, who were these people? Such a crazy, just truly out of a nightmare kind of story. Any case updates on that?
Georgia Hardstark
So, yeah, there's no major case updates on this one, but a couple things. In 2016, the Boone County Child Advocacy center, which is an Indiana based nonprofit, was renamed the Sylvia's Child Advocacy center in honor of Sylvia's memory. And the organization, quote, provides forensic interviews and victim advocacy for children, victims of informed abuse, neglect, maltreatment and sexual assault.
Unknown Speaker
End quote.
Georgia Hardstark
So she's getting, you know, recognition there. And also you can check out the movie about this case called An American crime. It's from 2007 and it stars Elliot Page, Catherine Keener, Bradley Whitford, Evan Peters and more. So check out An American Crime.
Unknown Speaker
I'm sorry, but I love Evan Peters so much. Much.
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
Remember him from Marge of fucking. Oh, East Town. Mayor of East Town.
What was he? Oh, he was the cute.
Karen Kilgariff
He was the detective.
Unknown Speaker
He was so cute.
Evan Peters, which I bet in this he's a real youngster.
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah, definitely.
Unknown Speaker
Anyway, all right, well, that's it for this episode.
Georgia Hardstark
Should we pick a new title other than the Brilliant Blood Murder Scene?
Unknown Speaker
Really?
Huh.
I'd love to pick a new title. This One is kind of that I.
Karen Kilgariff
Feel like when we did it, we're.
Unknown Speaker
Like, well, it sounds good. It does sound good, but it's silly.
I think it was like we kicked.
Georgia Hardstark
Them after we recorded and we were so tired by then that we were.
Unknown Speaker
Just like, let's get out of here for sure.
So Georgia says in this episode cooking and hanging out at home, which is her pointing out on the show the family who wants to be the fucking mayor. Don't you know about cooking and hanging out at home and being a good parent, which is so hilarious.
Georgia Hardstark
I'm just really not into extra jobs. Like to me it's like, why are you taking on more as someone who does take every fucking thing on? Like, be lazy if you have the opportunity. Like, why wouldn't you be lazy and like comfortable and.
Unknown Speaker
And volunteering for political work? Right.
Karen Kilgariff
Where it's like, what's the payoff there?
Georgia Hardstark
It's tear your family apart.
Unknown Speaker
You're just always fighting, always working.
Right.
Always having to beg for money.
Exactly.
Georgia Hardstark
Going to galas all the time and fucking and announcing things and cutting ribbons and. You mean Jesus.
Karen Kilgariff
All the grocery stores that you have.
Unknown Speaker
To open over and over.
Georgia Hardstark
John's Vaughn and the other name is. Could be Dun dun, Dun. But that's because you bring up Dominic Dunn's involvement in Gendre Levy case. And then my brilliant 2016 brain went dun, dun, dun.
Unknown Speaker
As in. Let me explain it.
Anyways, wait, hold on, because I have a couple questions.
Dun, dun dun.
It is crazy. Dominic Dunne was basically the king of true crime journalism.
Definitely.
And true crime. You know, his pieces in Vanity Fair and then him going through it himself. It's just incredible the kind of work that he did, I think and stuff. You know, he used to have a.
Karen Kilgariff
Series that I loved that he was the host of.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, I remember that.
Karen Kilgariff
I think it was about rich people.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah.
Georgia Hardstark
And their stupid crimes.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. But he's a real giant.
Georgia Hardstark
Thank you guys for, you know, being around, hanging out, all that stuff.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, we really appreciate you paging back through the photo album with us.
Georgia Hardstark
Yeah, it's traumatizing and fun.
Unknown Speaker
Horrifying. Look, look, listen, just go listen to your voicemail messages if you don't think it's horrifying.
Karen Kilgariff
You're outgoing.
Unknown Speaker
Voicemail. What's voicemail, Karen? You 24 year olds ask, don't worry about about it. I'm not talking to you.
Georgia Hardstark
Stay sexy and don't get murdered.
Unknown Speaker
Goodbye, Elvis.
Georgia Hardstark
Do you want a cookie?
Podcast Summary: Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 16: Blood Murder Sixteen Magic
Podcast Information:
In Episode 16 of "Rewind with Karen & Georgia," hosts Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark revisit their original Episode 16 titled "Blood Murder Sixteen Magic," which originally aired on Friday, May 13, 2016. This episode serves as a reflective look back at how Karen and Georgia approached the Chandra Levy case when the podcast first launched, offering insights into their growth and evolving perspectives over the years.
Karen and Georgia begin by playing a segment from their original Episode 16, setting the stage for their analysis. The initial conversation between them showcases their early enthusiasm and foundational dynamics as murder enthusiasts:
The hosts reminisce about the early days of the podcast, discussing how they connected over their shared passion for true crime. They highlight their initial struggles with audience reception:
They emphasize the importance of finding their niche and building a community through platforms like Twitter and Facebook, which later grew to nearly 5,000 followers. The introduction of merchandise and T-shirts marked significant milestones in their podcast's expansion.
Karen and Georgia delve into the Chandra Levy case, outlining the key events and their initial impressions when they first covered it:
Chandra Levy, a young journalist, went missing in May 2001 while interning in Washington, D.C. Her disappearance attracted significant media attention, especially due to rumors of an affair with Congressman Gary Condit.
The hosts critique the D.C. Police's handling of the investigation, pointing out critical errors and delays:
They highlight how the police focused prematurely on Gary Condit, influenced by media sensationalism, which hampered the investigation's effectiveness. The discovery of Chandra Levy's skeletal remains two years later raised further questions about the thoroughness of the initial search.
Karen and Georgia discuss the overwhelming media coverage and its impact on public perception:
They argue that the media's relentless focus on Condit, despite a lack of concrete evidence, influenced public opinion and possibly biased the investigation.
The conversation shifts to the trial of Ingmar Guandique, who was convicted of Levy's murder:
Despite Guandique's conviction, Lawrence Condit continued to face public scrutiny. The hosts express frustration over the complexities and unresolved aspects of the case, noting that the trial's reliance on a jailhouse informant cast doubts on the conviction's legitimacy.
Karen and Georgia reflect on how the case remains unresolved and the lingering questions about justice and media influence:
They lament the incomplete resolution and the impact on the Levy family, emphasizing the need for accountability and thorough investigations in such high-profile cases.
Throughout the episode, Karen and Georgia acknowledge the role of their listeners in the podcast's growth. They share anecdotes about interactions on social media, the creation of memes, and the anticipation surrounding their holiday cards. Their engagement strategies, including collaborations with other podcasts like Cracked.com, have significantly expanded their reach and community involvement.
The hosts transition to discussing the Sylvia Likens case, one of the most harrowing and tragic stories they've covered:
Sylvia Likens, a teenage girl from Indianapolis, endured severe physical and emotional abuse at the hands of her caregiver, Gertrude Banasiewski, and her children. The abuse included beatings, burnings, and other forms of torture, leading to Sylvia's death from shock and malnutrition.
Karen and Georgia analyze the systemic failures that allowed such atrocities to occur:
They discuss the societal and familial neglect that contributed to Sylvia's suffering, emphasizing the need for better support systems and awareness to prevent similar tragedies.
The hosts connect Sylvia's case to broader themes of child abuse and societal responsibility:
They commend initiatives like the Sylvia's Child Advocacy Center, which was renamed in her honor in 2016, serving as a beacon for supporting child victims of abuse and neglect.
Karen and Georgia wrap up the episode by reflecting on the dark and often unresolved nature of true crime cases. They reiterate their commitment to shedding light on these stories, providing both analysis and a platform for discussion. Their conversation underscores the complexities of the justice system, media influence, and the enduring quest for truth in the face of tragedy.
Notable Quotes:
Timestamp Highlights:
Conclusion: "Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 16: Blood Murder Sixteen Magic" offers a profound reflection on one of their earliest and most impactful episodes. By dissecting the Chandra Levy case and introducing the Sylvia Likens case, Karen and Georgia provide their audience with a deepened understanding of true crime's complexities, the role of media, and the pursuit of justice. This episode stands as a testament to their growth as storytellers and their unwavering dedication to exploring the darkest corners of human behavior with both insight and compassion.