Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 17: Episode SE7ENteen

Summary

Podcast Summary: My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark Episode: Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 17: Episode SE7ENteen
Network: Exactly Right Media

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Introduction

In this special "Rewind" episode, hosts Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark revisit their early days on My Favorite Murder (MFM) by re-examining Episode 17, cleverly titled "SE7ENteen." Released in May 2016, this episode marks the show's initial foray into blending true crime with their unique comedic perspective.

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Revisiting Episode SE7ENteen

Karen and Georgia embark on a nostalgic journey, reflecting on how far they've come since launching MFM. They discuss the challenges and triumphs of creating content that resonates with listeners, emphasizing the evolution of their storytelling and rapport.

Notable Quote:

• Karen (03:08): "It's clever. And it's absolutely a breach of trademark for sure."

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Early Podcast Dynamics

The hosts reminisce about their initial chemistry and the spontaneous nature that fueled their early episodes. They recall how conversations were more about personal anecdotes and shared experiences before honing in on specific true crime cases.

Notable Quote:

• Georgia (06:30): "This is why my blinds that you see right here, my drapes are. Are sheer because otherwise it's just Depressionville."

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Featured Cases in Episode SE7ENteen

1. Chris Benoit Murder-Suicide Case

One of the significant stories revisited is the tragic murder-suicide of professional wrestler Chris Benoit in 2007. Benoit, a respected figure in the wrestling community, was found dead alongside his wife and son in a heartbreaking display of violence.

Key Points:

• Background: Benoit had a decorated wrestling career but struggled with personal issues, including depression and potential brain damage from multiple concussions.
• Events: Over a weekend, Benoit murdered his wife Nancy and their young son Daniel before taking his own life.
• Implications: The case highlights the devastating impact of mental health issues and substance abuse, sparking conversations about the responsibility of sports organizations in athlete well-being.

Notable Quotes:

• Karen (28:34): "The concussion thing is big."
• Georgia (35:32): "They were both taking a ton of steroids. There's a ton of marital discord."

2. Jennifer Moore Case

Another poignant case discussed is the murder of Jennifer Moore, a 13-year-old girl from Petaluma, California, in 1989. Her disappearance and subsequent discovery of her body shocked the tight-knit community.

Key Points:

• Disappearance: Jennifer went missing after leaving her home to buy ice cream, prompting a search that led to her tragic end.
• Investigation: The case unfolded with meticulous police work, including the use of bloodhounds and polygraph tests, ultimately implicating Scott Williams, the youth pastor of her local church.
• Community Impact: The revelation that a trusted community figure was responsible underscored the unpredictability of evil and the importance of vigilance.

Notable Quotes:

• Georgia (71:13): "And the Bible."
• Karen (71:26): "Anyone good can go to that place on Sunday and sit there in silence and act. Anyone can act."

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Insights on True Crime Storytelling

Karen and Georgia delve into the psychological aspects of true crime narratives, discussing how sharing these harrowing stories serves as a cathartic outlet for both hosts and listeners. They explore the balance between respecting the victims and maintaining their comedic edge, a signature element that distinguishes MFM in the true crime genre.

Notable Quote:

• Karen (51:41): "It was like, yay cops, Yay judge. It rarely happens. We can celebrate it."

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Concluding Thoughts

As the episode wraps up, Karen and Georgia express gratitude towards their listeners and reflect on the enduring impact of their early stories. They acknowledge the importance of mental health awareness and the role of podcasts like MFM in fostering informed and empathetic communities.

Notable Quote:

• Georgia (75:03): "Maybe we'll win a Peabody Award."

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Final Remarks

Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode SE7ENteen serves as both a tribute to MFM's origins and a testament to the hosts' commitment to delivering compelling true crime content with a touch of humor. By revisiting their initial episodes, Karen and Georgia reinforce the values that have endeared them to millions of fans worldwide.

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Stay Connected: Join the My Favorite Murder community on their Facebook page for more discussions and updates.

Transcript

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is exactly right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Unknown]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Unknown]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

Want to make your card stand out? Try adding foil accents or metallic pre lined envelopes envelopes to make your cards extra special.

[Unknown]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

And with Shutterfly's high quality printing and simple mailing services, you don't have to worry about the logistics.

[Unknown]

They even offer free address printing and an easy address collector to make sending your cards a breeze.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Karen Every single year I'm like, we're gonna do a holiday card this year. We're gonna get all the animals in. It's gonna be so adorable. And. And I always don't do it because I'm like, this is too hard. But Shutterfly actually does make it really easy. Like even I can do it. So get ready for our holiday card this year.

[Unknown]

The organization it takes to do it a Shutterfly is basically going, we understand.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And we can do that for you.

[Unknown]

Totally. Like, click upload.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You're good.

[Unknown]

Find the perfect holiday card for [e-mail] and start customizing today. Enjoy.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Unknown]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

That's shutterfly.com promo code MFM40.

[Unknown]

Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Calling all thrill seekers and mystery enthusiasts. Have you checked out the new television series Cross on Prime Video? Based upon the character created by James Patterson? This is Detective Alex Cross like you've never seen him before. It's a cat and mouse edge of your seat thrill ride that will keep you guessing. Cross stars Aldous Hodge as Alex Cross, DC's lead investigator and forensic psychologist. With a serial killer terrorizing dc, Cross finds himself in a race against the clock to save the latest victim. Follow Cross as he navigates a maze of clues, uncovers dark secrets and corruption, all while someone from his past is threatening his family. You'll be rooting for Alex Cross and loving the killer soundtrack. Get ready to tune in and work the case. Watch Cross a new series only on Prime Video. Watch now. Goodbye.

[Unknown]

My sa.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hello and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

[Unknown]

This is our new special Wednesday podcast where we rewind to our oldest episodes and provide some eight years later commentary.

[Georgia Hardstark]

For you so necessary. Today we're rewinding Back to episode 17, called episode 17. But here's the thing. The seven is spelled like the movie seven. So it's clever. It's really clever.

[Unknown]

It's clever. And it's absolutely a breach of trademark for sure.

So true.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And this episode we Posted on Thursday, May 19th of the year 2016, remember?

[Unknown]

Okay, so now it's time for you to grab your closest frenemy, the one guy from the deli, and someone dealing with perimenopause so we can all listen along together because now we get to all be day one listeners.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I've been all those things to someone at some point in my life. Just.

[Unknown]

I mean, haven't we? I would hope we all have.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You have to fully live.

[Unknown]

You do.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, so let's listen to the intro of episode 17. What was that about?

[Unknown]

That breath?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know. I guess I was just trying to clear a channel for this episode. Get ready for the. For what was to come.

[Unknown]

The ride of your life.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Get ready. Get ready for a rollercoaster of emotion. Are you ready?

[Unknown]

I'm ready.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's do episode 17 of my favorite.

[Unknown]

Murder, starring George R. Stark and Karen Kilgara.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hi, everybody.

[Unknown]

Hi. Here we are.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hi.

[Unknown]

Hi.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Welcome. If you've just started. Hi. What's going on in your life?

[Unknown]

How are you guys? Why do you like murder so much?

[Karen Kilgariff]

What's up with you? Did some. Did you see something weird as an 8 year old? Or have you always had a weird feeling inside?

[Unknown]

Can you talk to anyone else in your life about it? Is this why you're here? Is that nobody else is interested and you're a freak?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Because that's why we're here.

[Unknown]

Hey.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So good.

[Unknown]

Good. So here we are.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Good on you.

[Unknown]

That was the intro.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. These are getting better, I think.

[Unknown]

I feel like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think they're getting very strong.

[Unknown]

I think we're professionals now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

People are like, I just started. I hit play on this podcast, but now I don't know what's happening.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm not sure if it actually started.

[Unknown]

People are just talking at each other.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are you?

[Unknown]

I feel a little pressure. Do you?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Because, guys, our ratings went through the roof.

[Unknown]

Our ratings just blew. I mean, let's just say it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's just say it. We think that there is a computer hacker that's gone on to itunes and Hacked us into number one.

[Unknown]

And clearly they love us for some reason. This hacker, Andrew Solompson, if this is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You, thank you, my friend. You're a good person.

[Unknown]

It's insane. We're number one on the iTunes comedy podcast list.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Like our. Not our picture, but our logo. It's so exciting.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. It's super cool. And we do want to thank Jack O'Brien, who is the host of the Cracked podcast. That can't be a coincidence that that thing got posted and then suddenly all kinds of people were like, hey, I just disc your podcast.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So thanks, Jack. You're the best.

[Unknown]

Yep.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And easy on the eyes.

[Unknown]

Pretty cute.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But he's married. Dimples, calm down. Everybody's married.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Everyone chill.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But that. Yeah, it was super fun to be on podcast.

[Unknown]

It was so much fun. He was great. This is all like. This is all insane.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I feel like it's weird that we had an idea at a party, you had the gumption to actually make me do it, and then something like that would happen.

[Unknown]

I do that. I make people do stuff a lot.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's good. It's good.

[Unknown]

Otherwise, I'll just fall into a deep, dark depression.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Same here. I'll go into my TV room, close the curtains like Morticia Adams.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then watch British procedurals until I die of old age.

[Unknown]

This is why my. My blinds that you see right here, my drapes are. Are sheer because otherwise it's just Depressionville.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Oh, that's true.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I mean, when you can't be in.

[Unknown]

The complete dark, you can't be in the complete dark.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Are you telling me we need to go to Ikea and get some new curtains for my TV room?

[Unknown]

We are absolutely saying that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm going to burn those curtains. I have straight up hotel blackout curtains in my TV room.

[Unknown]

I have that in my bedroom, but not. But in here, it's like I. I'll get depressed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Although I think you cured my depression.

[Unknown]

I know. It's very helpful. Although at the same time, I have this thing where dusk makes me really fucking depressed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Dust.

[Unknown]

Dusk.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yes. Yep.

[Unknown]

It just reminds me of being a kid, which sucks, as everyone knows.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Being home alone and being like, do I make my own dinner? I'm only nine.

[Unknown]

I don't. I'm not going to eat anything because it's too depressing to eat alone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh. I had the opposite reaction. That's funny. I was like, I can make toast. I'll make a whole loaf of toast.

[Unknown]

Cheese Toast, man. Comforts you. Comforts you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's like, yeah, Kid recipes like crackers with butter on them.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How gross is that?

[Georgia Hardstark]

What about.

[Unknown]

Did you ever melt melt butter mixed in brown sugar and vanilla and just eat that out of a cup? Never done that. It's. Let me just tell you, it's fucking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Poor man's chocolate chip cookie.

[Unknown]

Fucking delicious.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're basically taking everything good in chocolate chip cookies and none of the bullshit.

[Unknown]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Fuck. Baking soda.

[Unknown]

Totally. Raw eggs. Who needs you?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Go away, chickens. I'm just going to eat the good stuff. I love that. Wait, did you include incorporate any chocolate chips in there?

[Unknown]

No, I don't think we ever had. We had very little food when I was a kid in my house at all times. So it was like, what do I have on hand? I'm going to wrap a slice of turkey around a pickle spear and that's dinner.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Totally. I do have a very early memory of drinking cough syrup one time just. And jumping on the bed. That's what I was doing that afternoon by myself.

[Unknown]

Who just. It's cool that you knew that cough syrup drinking would be fun. Like, I don't think if I had known that, I would have been.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, if there's ever a sign that a child is going to be an alcoholic, for sure that was it. That was like the Tom Hanks episode of Family. Was it not? Family Matters. Family Ties. Yeah, Family Ties. When he drinks maraschino cherry liquid. What's happening?

[Unknown]

I once opened, cut open a tea leaf, A tea bag, poured the tea leaves. Wow. Into a little bit of paper towel, rolled it up like a joint. Cause I wanted to see what it was like to smoke cigarettes. I think it was like 10. And I smoked that in front of a mirror to see how cool I looked.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did you look so cool?

[Unknown]

I. No. Did you barf from that you physically lit on fire?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

You know, Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I would imagine that would go up pretty easily.

[Unknown]

The point is, don't let your kids be latchkey kids.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, one time my mom was home, she was just on the phone, and when she got on the horn, she would be on it for like an hour and a half. And I just lit the bed on fire in the back.

[Unknown]

I just.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I was playing with matches and I was just like. It was like, strike a match, watch the flame go up, hold it until it got down to my fingers.

[Unknown]

Done it a million times.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Drop it on the bed. Because I was like 5, so I was just like, well, I'm done with that.

[Unknown]

Drop it on the bed. So they're the most flammable. Everything is so polyester they like spray extra flammable on everything.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is when they're trying to light children on fire any way possible. Yeah, I'm pretty sure what the top layer was an electric blanket, which is also the most flammable thing of all time. And so basically I started a fire and it got into a like say a one foot ring of fire in the middle of the bed. And I went out to tell my mom, there's a fire on the bed. And she, I was like walked up to her and she waved me. Oh my God, I'll never forget. She's on the phone with the crazy long cord. It was mustard yellow. She was walking around the kitchen doing stuff. And I would literally was like, imagine a five year old me with my finger up. Pardon me, ma'am. And she's like, out of here. And then so I went back and checked it and now it was a three foot ring.

[Unknown]

Are you serious? Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then that time I was like, mom. And she's like, honey, I told you. And then I was like, the bed's on fire.

[Unknown]

That is so cool.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then suddenly I had a bad reputation in my family. Oh, I'm the asshole.

[Unknown]

Well, who has a number one fucking murder podcast now? Mom.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is the ultimate revenge. Oh, that's hilarious. Also, our numbers are skyrocketing in Britain.

[Unknown]

The uk, Australia loves us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Those are going Latvia. I hear we're doing well.

[Unknown]

No, actually that's where my family's from.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is it for really?

[Unknown]

So maybe a bunch of hard starks are listening.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That'd be amazing. Yeah. Longford and Galway, Ireland. Heads up. That's where my people are from. Representative, let's.

[Unknown]

Well, they ran us. Ran us out because we're Jews, so fuck off.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh wait, they ran us out because we're Catholics.

[Unknown]

I feel like we were made to have a podcast together.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, our ancestors wanted this for us.

[Unknown]

Our ancestors and our shitty little kid selves.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I just want to mention someone on the Facebook page, if you are new to this podcast, we're all about that Facebook page. Please join it and join in wonderful and sometimes quite frightening conversations that go on there. Someone brought up the fact that we pitched out a very interesting and exciting 911 phone call identifier game that we also mentioned on the Cracked podcast. We still haven't done. And there's some people who are pretty pissed. I explained that I'm very scared of 911 calls. They want us to do it anyway, so that might be a. That might be a good mini.

[Unknown]

I really want to. Yeah, for sure. I really want to know if we can tell. Like, it's just. Okay. The other. The other. Yesterday, I watched some videos of Ted Bundy being interviewed, only to, like, see if I could tell if, like, if I had met him, if I would have known.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

You know? Yes. And it's like the same thing with the 901 calls. I want to know if we want to play three calls by husbands reporting their wives dead. Two of them are legit, one of them, the husband, killed her, and we want to know if we can tell which one is the one who killed her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So we have to listen to two real 911 calls of a man whose wife has just been killed.

[Unknown]

You know when you say it like that. No, no, no, no.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Everyone's being real. It's playing very fast and loose about the idea of this game, quote, unquote, you're right. Called Nightmare Fuel.

[Unknown]

What about two? What about one is fake and one is real?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That I can handle. And if we play it once. Because I have listened to these calls. I've watched plenty of forensic files or whatever, but they're just horrifying.

[Unknown]

I know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Even when they're fake. I think they might even be more horrifying when they're fake because it's embarrassing.

[Unknown]

How about we don't do it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's pitch a ton of great games that people love the idea of and.

[Unknown]

Never do and then never do it. Why doesn't someone play the game with the Facebook followers and that can be on them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's a good idea. And then report back how scarred you are.

[Unknown]

Yep. Once you have scarred, you are. And what percentage of people knew?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's interesting that you bring up that Ted Bundy interview, though, because I, as well as a couple people who are listening and have been talking about, am rereading the Stranger Beside Me, the Ann Rule classic, who is a crime writer who worked with Ted Bundy.

[Unknown]

Amazing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

On what was basically a suicide hotline in Seattle in the 70s.

[Unknown]

Like, can you get more classic than that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, talk about. She was meant to write that book and meant to do that. But the part I'm on right now, he went to this park in. I believe it was in, like, the outer part of Seattle and this really awesome, like, lake park. I can't remember what it was called. Sorry. And he approached six different women that day to help him with his boat that wasn't actually there.

[Unknown]

Holy shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Help. Can you help me with my boat? Then he gets into the car, and then he says, oh, actually, the boat's at home. Sorry, I didn't explain that. And that's where he got at least one girl. Now I'm thinking he may have gotten two that day. Shit. I can't remember. I just read this yesterday, but I keep reading it and then falling asleep out of. I think, like, I need to leave this. These facts and go into a dream world. But it just makes me think he must have been so low key because he looked like he would wear a tennis outfit and he was really good looking and he was kind of tall, you know?

[Unknown]

Yeah. But here's the thing. In the interviews, he won't make eye contact with the interviewer. He like, he'll go for long stretches of time, like looking down in a way and not looking up. Yeah. He also has like some kind of weird jerky movements a little bit. So I'm wondering if he like, did he get those after he went to prison and after he killed a bunch of people or was he like that then and would I even have cared? You know?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. Yeah. I mean, that's interesting. Did he have like. It was like a tick almost or.

[Unknown]

Something And I'm like, that's creepy. But is it? Only because I know that's Ted Bundy, Right. He looks like someone my mom would have dated.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, he looks like. He looks like a guy that would be in like a Lipton tea commercial in the late 70s.

[Unknown]

Yeah. With like his pretty young wife.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

They're toasting to tea. They're rolling it up and smoking it in a.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're smoking some tea together and having a good time. But it is. I bet you he was. I think the girls that paid attention were like, got, you know, like at first started talking to him and then kept on paying attention and like got into it. Got. Got that weird feeling. And of course, once they got to the car and like, no boat. See you later. I've got to get back to my friends.

[Unknown]

But as we've. Oh, sorry, go ahead.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I think you're going to say what I was going to say.

[Unknown]

As we've said so many times, you couldn't be a fucking bitch back then and like you were taught to be nice and friendly and he fucking preyed upon that. And he probably also was really good at like turning on the charm.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, 100%.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right.

[Unknown]

So he didn't have a twitch and he was. Seemed very nice.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I bet the twitch came after he was incarcerated and he was just like, I'm going crazy.

[Unknown]

I bet that's what happened.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I want to kill.

[Unknown]

Would you how badly would you have. Would you have wanted to interview him?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hmm. I don't know. I'm not sure about that. Because I like this story of what they do. I don't want to know that person or be near that person because ultimately they're, you know, a little bit of the devil.

[Unknown]

Yeah, there's that. The Iceman interviews.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah.

[Unknown]

Documentary. And that guy just seems normal and likable. He's the guy who was a mobster hitman, but he was also like a family man and he's just hundreds of people. Yeah. Casually talking about doing it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And he seemed. He had more charm to me and like likability. Like, like. Than Ted Bundy did.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know. Well, I mean, he. But he's gotta be a sociopath or he would have been eaten alive by guilt and remorse and shame and all that stuff.

[Unknown]

Right. But I don't think he ever killed women and children. So maybe it wasn't like Ted Bundy enjoyed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, he sure did.

[Unknown]

Like, got off on it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This guy was like, it was his job. And he probably felt a little self righteous in it of like, well, they owe money or, you know, they wronged someone.

[Unknown]

I mean, I support that. No, I don't.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's why Mafia hits don't interest me.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because it's almost like a business transaction. Like you don't deal with people who will kill you because they'll kill you. They tell you they're going to kill you, you borrow money from them, you don't pay it back, they kill you.

[Unknown]

That's very. A history of killing you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. They're good with killing.

[Unknown]

Yet somehow we still date men.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Come on, let's not do. Let's not be those people.

[Unknown]

Let's fucking get in there.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, we won't.

[Unknown]

I'm kidding.

I mean, those are some classic conversations.

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We were finding our footing. We were realizing you could talk about fucking anything and it was fine. We were sharing a lot about ourselves too.

[Unknown]

Yeah. AKA filling time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Stretching the podcast for time.

[Unknown]

I have a story about when I was five.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, I have a story about when I was five.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, actually, your story from when you were five about lighting your bed on fire turns in yes to one of Nick Terry's MFM Animated sketches that you can see on our YouTube channel. It's YouTube.com exactlyrightmedia. It's episode 18 of MFM Animated and it's a fucking classic.

[Unknown]

And yeah, that's another way that you can ingest this original storytelling. Little did we know when we were telling these stories at the time that they were gonna. They were gonna branch off into a whole other thing.

Thank God.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because I think we would have been too nervous and we wouldn't have.

[Unknown]

I mean, we wouldn't do this.

All of that looking and being like, oh, we were number one on the comedy podcast chart.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That was insane.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's hilarious.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That was creepy to me, where I was like, I think Vince showed it to me, and I was like, oh, that must be your algorithm.

[Unknown]

Like, that's not real.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That must be, like, just from your phone. And he's like, it's not. And it was.

[Unknown]

It's not.

It's very.

But there was a deep. There was a deep wisdom in that response, which is. That's not real. Because it's like, once you're in, you're in with those fucking charts, man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's just like.

[Unknown]

It was also very, like, hopeful of.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Me that Vince, et al, listened to or listens to this podcast. Ever thought it would be number one on his fucking chart.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's hilarious. My wonderful husband, your little.

[Unknown]

That's your little fantasy that you're like, oh, that's just you listening all the time to the parts.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't listen to your podcast.

[Unknown]

So it's fair.

I mean, those are, I think, two great examples of, like, true crime, girlfriend, wrestling, boyfriend, where it's like, never the twain shall meet in terms of hobby. But that doesn't mean anything about relationship.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not at all.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it works. And Vince has come around to a lot of the true crime stuff. There's some shit he still can't handle.

[Unknown]

But he loves it now.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's pretty great.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, because they're just.

[Unknown]

It's just amazing human stories at the end of the day.

Yeah.

Speaking of an amazing human story, this is the episode where you tell Latvia to fuck off. I mean, incredible. Just incredible strides we're taking.

That was.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Those were those from my ancestors, from my grandmother who was fucking chased out and her village was set on fire. And she lived for seven years in fields and barns, surviving on potatoes one night and potato and the skins of the potatoes the next night with all her siblings.

[Unknown]

This is the grandma that lived to be 103.

104.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Grandma Thelma.

[Unknown]

104.

Yeah. Oh, shit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

She fucking did it.

[Unknown]

So she was made of. She had bones, and then she had muscles wrapped around those bones, and then she had nails wrapped around those muscles, and then she had more muscles on.

Top of the nails with a sprinkling of childhood trauma.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's what keeps you going.

[Unknown]

And I bet a sense of humor.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because gotta have that.

[Unknown]

Yeah. So sorry.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Latvia. But like, kind of not sorry. You know what I mean?

[Unknown]

Well, it is about frenemies, really. On this episode.

That's kind of our thing.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then you were reading the Stranger Beside me again, which is like, do.

[Unknown]

We just do that every six months?

I think so. I think that's our. That's our hobby.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. That's our go to.

[Unknown]

That's our Strunk and white.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And actually speaking of wrestling Boyfriend True crime podcast, this story that I do ties both those things in in a really awful, terrible way.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ugh.

[Unknown]

This one made me very sad the night we recorded it. It was like the kind I went home with that one where I was just like, this is just the horrors that people are living through.

Yeah.

Outside of our own doors. And when you think everybody.

[Karen Kilgariff]

People have the life, you think, you.

[Unknown]

Know what makes a great life.

Right.

Fame, money, you know, family, whatever.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Big house, all the little trappings. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Unknown]

Let's listen to Georgia's story about the tragic murder suicide case of wrestler Chris Benoit.

[Georgia Hardstark]

If you haven't started planning for the holidays, you're already behind.

[Unknown]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Unknown]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Unknown]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Unknown]

They even offer free address printing and an easy address collector to make sending your cards a breeze.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Karen, Every single year I'm like, we're going to do a holiday card this year. We're going to get all the animals in. It's going to be so adorable. And I always don't do it because I'm like, this is too hard. But Shutterfly actually does make it really easy. Like even I can do it. So get ready for our holiday card this year.

[Unknown]

The organization it takes to do it, a Shutterfly is basically going, we understand.

And we can do that for you.

Totally.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Unknown]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Unknown]

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[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Unknown]

Goodbye.

[Georgia Hardstark]

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[Unknown]

So the point of this podcast, if you're new, is that the title is My Favorite Murder, and Karen and I tell each other our favorite murders. Sometimes there's a theme, sometimes there's not. Today, absolutely no theme.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No. Thank you. I think it's your time to go first.

[Unknown]

Is it okay?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think so.

[Unknown]

This is an interesting one that I'm really excited about. Okay. And I've been. Okay. So a lot of people have found the podcast through my husband Vince's podcast. We watch wrestling, which is also on Feral. And a lot of ladies on the podcast, or men have said, I listen to my favorite murder, and you listen to we watch Wrestling. And sometimes I'm on. There's like an overlap, and they get excited, and it's silly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Are you talking about cute couples that listen to the cute couples? Georgia and Vince's different podcast.

[Unknown]

Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, it's like you're the Prince William and Queen Vicky. What's her name?

[Unknown]

Queen Vicky. I think it's Queen Vicky.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Is it Queen Vicky and Prince William of England?

[Unknown]

Definitely Queen Vicky.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hey, England. Let us know if that's right.

[Unknown]

We just lost so many lists. We just lost Queen Vicki listening. She's like, fuck that bitch. All right, so there's this murder that he told me about when we started dating that I didn't know about because it's in the wrestling world, and it's the murder. The murder suicide of and by Chris Benoit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow.

[Unknown]

Have you heard of that? His name, Chris Benoit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How old is it?

[Unknown]

It happened in 2000. 7.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think I did hear about it, but I know nothing about wrestling at all.

[Unknown]

Okay. Yeah. And I didn't when I first met him. And now I know all this stuff, so it kind of makes sense to me. So I wanted to explain it because it's actually really fucking interesting and crazy. And murder suicides are like. Like, they're really interesting to me because what, like, it's. It's like encapsulated in this home, usually the horrors that go on in this little home where people have lived and been happy and feel safe, and it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Somehow degrades into this insanity.

[Unknown]

Yeah. And what's crazy about this one is it the. The murder. It was the murder of his wife and his young son. And it happened over the whole weekend.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ugh.

[Unknown]

So he kills his wife Friday night. Like, lives in his house, being like, what the fuck am I gonna do? So Chris Benoit was a Canadian professional wrestler. He had a 22 year career. He held 22 titles and he had the victory of the World Heavyweight Championship main event match in WrestleMania. What are two X's next to each other?

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's 20.

[Unknown]

Thank you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or that's almost super dirty.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Third grade was a hard year for me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Couldn't concentrate. No. Okay.

[Unknown]

I was just smoking too many.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So many E cigarettes.

[Unknown]

E cigarettes. So I didn't even know about this guy, but he was huge. Like the Rock. I don't think he was as big as the Rock, which is a wrestler everyone knows, but he was pretty big up there. He was widely respected by viewers and peers, and people really liked this guy. He was a little weird and a little quiet and intense. A lot of people said he was intense, but that he was a nice guy. He had a lot of friends, but. So it suggests that depression and brain damage accrued from numerous concussions that was contributed to him committing these awful crimes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The concussion thing is big.

[Unknown]

Well, we're gonna get into that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Unknown]

Yeah, it really is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then you just hit play on the movie Concussion, and we're just gonna.

[Unknown]

Sit and listen to the whole thing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Listen to Will Smith, do this accent, and explain to you why concussions are big.

[Unknown]

Is that a good movie?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I've never seen it.

[Unknown]

Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't want to watch it.

[Unknown]

I won't if it wasn't Will Smith, because that guy is actually really fascinating.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That doctor.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I watched a documentary with him and he's like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I thought it's actually a great movie. I just. Of all the things I have to do in my day, sitting down to realize how basically they've Subsidized. Subsidized. Damaging people's brains. It'll never stop happening. There's too much money and it's a machine where people care more about making money than human beings. I just get really depressed.

[Unknown]

There's a period at the end that's all true. So he. Well, here's the thing. One of his. One of his moves was the diving headbutt.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no.

[Unknown]

So he'd stand at the top of the turnbuckle, you know, when they climb up high, and he would spread his arms out and just like do a fucking fall, headbutting the other guy on the canvas, either in the back or elsewhere.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So using his head basically as a.

[Unknown]

Weapon, but like, free fall head.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Jesus Christ.

[Unknown]

So he had another signature move which will come back called the Crippler crossface. And this is a submission hold where he would lock the opponent's arms behind him with his legs while pulling back on his neck. It's almost like a hardcore headlock, but, like on the face. And sometimes the move would even knock people unconscious. Oh, so we'll get back to that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Real unconscious, not wrestling unconscious.

[Unknown]

Real unconscious. Okay. So on June 25, 2007, the police were called to Benoit's, like, incredible gated security, hardcore mansion. And they couldn't get in because of all the gating and stuff, which they could have climbed over, but there were two crazy Doberman pinschers, sorry, German shepherds, roaming the front lawn. Like, this guy was hardcore security, showing that he had a lot of paranoia, but also was rich and famous, so understandable.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, but I bet a lot of people don't have, like, Nazi dogs totally, you know, on the property.

[Unknown]

Yes. And so the home was in Fayetteville, Georgia, but it was like an unincorporated part, so they had to get the next door neighbor, Holly Schreifer, who sometimes was a good friend of Nancy Benoit, the wife, and would sometimes take care of the dog. So she clopped on over the fence.

[Karen Kilgariff]

She was part horse.

[Unknown]

She clippity clopped. She did it with a horse maneuver.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, some dressage.

[Unknown]

She did a dressage right over the. That's a general part of making fun of murder. No, making light of murder. That's what we.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Or just making light of mistakes in our mouths.

[Unknown]

That's it. Yeah. I'm not making this Holly person sounds like a good person. So she got over. She. And then she went into the house, which you're like, oh, civilian, don't do that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wait. Well, the cops are waiting outside. She goes over the fence to open all the shit. But she goes into the house. So she sees everything first.

[Unknown]

Well, she goes over the fence, locks the dog in the house in, like, a little spot. Oh, and then is like, I'm just gonna do a once around. Cause she can't get ahold of her friend Nancy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Holly let the cops do the once around.

[Unknown]

Don't do a once around. She finds the kid, Daniel. So should I. Basically, he did that crippler crossface on the kid. This little. I think he was seven.

No.

There's reports that he had something called. Where did it go? He had a genetic syndrome called Fragile X, meaning he was. Met the criteria for autism. It's inherited. It's like kind of a. It's like an intellectual disability. But there's conflicting evidence of that. So I don't know if that's true. Uh, so I. So what happened was. This is all over the place, isn't it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no, no.

[Unknown]

You just nodded your head and I thought.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I. I have. I nodded my head. So I don't picture Holly walking through the house and what she's seeing. Cause that's the bummer.

[Unknown]

So here's how it took place. On Friday night, Benoit kills his wife. And he leaves her bound at the ankles and wrists. He covers her in a sheet, and he leaves a Bible by her body.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's not gonna work.

[Unknown]

I know. Died of asphyxiation, had bruises on her back and stomach. And he had been physically violent with her in the past. He had been abusive, so.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, cause also. I'm sorry, but on top of concussions, he's probably taking a bunch of steroids, right?

[Unknown]

Yeah. So they're both taking a ton of steroids. There's a ton of them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The wife, too?

[Unknown]

Yeah. There's a ton of marital discord. It's on again, off again. They had just. She had filed for divorce and then didn't go through with it. She leaves all the time. He's possibly having an affair. There's all these text messages between the two of them, I should say. The book that I was reading about it is called Chris and Nancy by Irvin Muchnick Muchnik. It's really good if you want to learn more about it. And detailed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Was she a wrestler, too?

[Unknown]

Yeah. No, she was like the hype man girl. You know, the cock girls that come into the ring, hold a big card over their head. That's. No, that's boxing. I think she'd be his, like, his sidekick kind of like the woman and, you know, and actually her. She was so interesting. And gorgeous that her name at the time was just woman was her, like, handle. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's how gorgeous she was that she was reduced to a one worthy.

[Unknown]

So they got set up by her husband at the time as like a. To be like, oh, he's cheating with Benoit. And then they ended up getting married. So it worked. So anyways, so.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But it was a story. It was a wrestling storyline that came true.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. So their lives were a bit surreal anyway.

[Unknown]

Definitely. Definitely. So she. Let's see, there was a pillow leaning against her head. It sounds like what happened was they probably got in a big fight and it escalated and he killed her. The weird part to me is that he tied her up because that shows, like, premeditation to me. He didn't just like hit her so hard or get angry and strangle her. He tied her up and then killed her.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I wonder. Because steroids. It's like I took speed for a little while in the 90s to lose weight. Sure.

[Unknown]

We all did.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And. Right.

[Unknown]

Fenfun.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it made me insane, like, just angry from the second I woke up in the morning. And if you're on steroids, which is. They're basically rage pills. So it's two people on steroids. I'm sure that everything was intensified times a million. Yeah. And they're reacting off each other. But it seems to me I would assume there's not one person going, hey, let's relax for one second. It's just everybody's going through the roof.

[Unknown]

And he was supposed to leave that weekend for another match. And she just was so pissed that he was leaving all the time.

[Georgia Hardstark]

They found.

[Unknown]

The amount of pills that they ended up finding in the house is just incredible. They found Soma and Hydrocodeine, which is fucking heroin. Right. And Xanax and all these Ambien and of course, steroids. And he was actually exempt from the rule that you can't take steroids in the. In. In wwe because he had ruined his body so badly with steroids that he had couldn't make testosterone on his. On his own anymore. So he had to take steroids to get testosterone.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, okay.

[Unknown]

So even though there's no. No, no steroid rule. He was.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He was taking it medically.

[Unknown]

Yeah, but that's so shady.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right?

[Unknown]

Like, that's the. That's your solution for being fucked up on steroids is I'm such a bad.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Coke addict that I need to take coke?

[Unknown]

Right. Yeah. I've ruined my ability to. Whatever. Anyways. All of the above.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Unknown]

So between the two killings about 3.30pm on Saturday. It looks like he might have killed Daniel on Saturday, the next day. So he's hanging out in his house with his fucking wife in the office, dead, not knowing what to do. Calls his co workers and is like, I can't make it. My wife and kid have food poisoning and they're really sick. Kind of tells everyone that so they won't call. Yeah. So Daniel, the kid was then suffocated in his own bedroom. A children's Bible was left by his body. And he had become kind of a religious fanatic at that point by reading. He was reading passages in that span of.

[Karen Kilgariff]

In that weekend.

[Unknown]

Yeah. I mean, up until leading up to the murders, he killed his son with the chokehold. No bruises. And. Yeah, so he had needle marks in his arm suggesting he had been given growth hormones.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The son or the son.

[Unknown]

Because he had. He was undersized because of this fragile X syndrome that he supposedly had. But I don't understand that completely. And I'm wondering if he gave him sedatives. Oh, so he could.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So he could. Yeah.

[Unknown]

You know what I mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. That would almost be a tiny bit of a relief. As hideous as that. Silence.

[Unknown]

I agree. And he think. He. And I think in his mind, people have surmised that he was. Thought he was doing a mercy killing. Of course he had killed the mom. Let's just fucking end this. In the same way that I think a lot of men who do the murder suicide shenanigans to their family are like, I lost all our money. I'm not gonna make you live this way and kill the family.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Unknown]

Just fucking insane. We're good. We want to live as someone who.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's twisted as some sort of noble move. It's total narcissism.

[Unknown]

It's complete narcissism to think that they're an extension of you and you get.

[Karen Kilgariff]

To make that call.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's nuts.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And also, everybody's in debt.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Relax about it.

[Unknown]

Yeah. It's complete. It's them, it's him. It's the person not wanting them to find out what a fucking. That he was and who he said he was.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. Well, also, this is classic drug brain too.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Let me get to. So, yeah. So it's okay. So he dies. This is how he kills himself. He dies of asphyxiation. He was found hanging by the cord of a weight machine. So he goes down to the weight. The weight room, and he. He's sitting upright on a bench on like a weight. A weight bench. Facing the weight machine. So you can imagine, like, doing pull downs. What do they call them? I work out a lot. I.

[Karen Kilgariff]

As you can see, he did like six reps of pull downs. Okay.

[Unknown]

He was shirtless. His leg was extended, his right baba de blah. The black nylon weight machine cable was around his neck. A strip of white towel was underneath to keep the cable from cutting into the skin, which is like, you don't deserve that, dude. And he was being. What's the point?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, okay.

[Unknown]

Yeah. And he was being held in a sitting position by the cable. So I think what he did is just like, let go of the weight and strangled himself.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And it appears that he. He actually tried to maximize his own pain, which is so sad. It sounds like he. He knew he did something wrong.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

It doesn't sound like he was like, I'm gonna murder suicide, everyone. It was like, here's a mistake compounded with a mistake compounded with a mistake.

[Karen Kilgariff]

God, it's terrible.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He's trapped. He's trapped in this horror show.

[Unknown]

Sommeliers would like to note. I'd like to note that there was a bottle of Dynamite Vineyards 2000 Merlot next to the body.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Why?

[Unknown]

I think they probably drank it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What? Sick fuck. Sommeliers need to make that note, you assholes. Me?

[Unknown]

No, they didn't really ask that. They didn't really request that, Karen. Who, me?

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is the episode I turn on you for liking murder, you dick. Georgia, this is disrespectful.

[Unknown]

How dare you? So let's talk about his brain damage. So after the murders and such, there was no preexisting mental or physical ailments. He did have some depression, obviously. And where did my other notes go? Oh, they're at the printer. I left my fucking notes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's sing a little song about the printer.

[Unknown]

Printer notes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Luckily, it's just right there.

[Unknown]

Printer feels good.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We want to walk it off a little bit. Yeah.

[Unknown]

All right. So they've been searching for answers, the family. Because it does not add up that this is the same man.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This lovely man, right?

[Unknown]

This family man. Seven year old son, of course, found anabolic steroids. They thought that it was roid rage, but it turns out that my theory's wrong. It wasn't roid rage. I mean, I'm sure there was some added to that. He. Benoit's brain was that of an 86 year old Alzheimer's patient. Yeah. In the same way with football players who are constantly getting concussion after concussion. And I mean, there's a story in this book about how in one fight, he and this other guy just banged each other's fucking heads into each other until they bled.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That hurts so bad when you hit heads with another person. Have you ever done that accidentally?

[Unknown]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, you both bend down fast at the same time. Ian knows what I'm talking about. And you smack your head. It is loud and it hurts for like 20 minutes after. And the idea that that's what he basically did for a living is.

[Unknown]

Have you ever had a concussion?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No. I did get flipped out of the back of a truck when I was in seventh grade.

[Unknown]

Remember when we could light fires in our room alone and sit in the back of trucks?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. This is the country life that I led.

[Unknown]

No, this is the 80s, man. We already put them on notice.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, that's true. And for good fucking reason. Me and my friend. It was my dad was so livid because he told us, don't drive that truck. Definitely too far away. The brakes aren't great. We drove up into the national park, uphill, uphill, uphill. And as we're driving, we can smell the brakes in the back. But it was our next door neighbor, Andy. Me, my sister, her friend Maureen, her friend Christine.

[Unknown]

I can't remember Andy's friend. I'm so impressed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I can't remember Andy's friend's name. Poor kid. Who was the one driving the truck? We start going down a hill, through a campsite. Brakes go out. Literally, he's driving a truck with four girls in it with him, and the brakes go out. He hits the back of Andy's car. Andy pulls forward, he tries to go over onto the side of the dirt. He instead, he drives up onto the dirt, embankment, flips the car.

[Unknown]

Holy shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Me and Holly, my best friend Holly Gardner was with me. We go flying out of the back of the truck. And midair. I remember very clearly thinking, when I hit the ground, my skirt's gonna fly up over onto my back and my underwear will be showing. So I have to make sure the second I hit the ground, I have to stand up. And I literally hit and stood up immediately.

[Unknown]

Do you think that saved you?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, for sure. Well, Holly fell too, but she. Neither of my mom was a nurse. She woke us up, up five times that night to check our eyes for concussion. Eyes.

[Unknown]

I just imagine a concussion, and maybe I've had one and I just don't remember it. But I can. The wobbly brain. Nothing feels right. And you don't even understand that you have a concussion. I don't think.

[Karen Kilgariff]

How did you get a concussion Maybe I didn't. Are you totally full of shit right now?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No.

[Unknown]

Maybe I've had a concussion and that's why I don't remember. I think. I think I was in a car accident when I was a kid and had one.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ye. Hit your head?

[Unknown]

Yeah. But I was with a girl once who had one because she got clunked in the head with a softball, like, and she just started crying. We were like hanging out at night and she starts crying and has to go to the hospital. Anyways. It looks terrible, it seems terrible. But can you imagine having having dozens over a ten year span?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Yeah. And that just sidebar totally is like, points. Makes me want to point to O.J. right now, because that's that thing of like, yes, in the beginning, he was the American hero. But when you have a full, full career where that happens to you every day, practice and in games, you know, 50 times a week or whatever, your brain cannot. You don't remain the person that you started as.

[Unknown]

Vince told me an interesting thing recently that hockey players, like, in the 70s, they. They put in the. Or maybe even like the 80s or 90s. Like, at some point they were like, helmets have to be used.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Unknown]

But if you've been playing before that, it was your choice, if you wanted to help, wear a helmet. So everyone from that on then on had to wear a helmet if you got hired.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But you might have been just too far gone where it's like, fuck it, you don't have to. If you.

[Unknown]

If you own. If you like, if you've owned a motorcycle before 19, you know, you don't have to wear a helmet. It's like, that was a law.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I really love hockey players so much because hockey is so graceful and beautiful and yet insanely violent and male, which I think is so violent. Very sexy. Oh, but I don't like fights.

[Unknown]

They scare me. What?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Georgia, really? That's the stuff of life.

[Unknown]

I hate fights.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Two guys punching each other.

[Unknown]

Oh, I hate it. It makes me especially. I think it's hilarious in ice skating. What if in ice skating.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ice fight. Yeah, that's what this is.

[Unknown]

What if ice skating have the same amount.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God. No, but Michelle Kwan just punching somebody in the face.

[Unknown]

There's something about. In hockey that. Cause they're so bulked up and have so much padding on that the punches and the whole fight is slow mo.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Unknown]

And so you can see their face. And I'm always like, is he gonna cry? I just. It stresses me. I don't like it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I bet they'd never cry.

[Unknown]

I bet they'd know when you, you know when you're really angry and you're like trying not to cry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Unknown]

I always wonder if they're feeling that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It is just funny that it's. That that is a sport where fighting is completely allowed, accepted, and the refs pretend they're gonna do something and they just let them fight it out.

[Unknown]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's very violent.

[Unknown]

Yeah. So. And one would think with wrestling it being like almost like an acrobatic feat. It's not like, it's not. You're not really hurting the person.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Unknown]

That you wouldn't get hurt then. But I mean, there's so many accidents that happen and so many bad wrestlers that, that don't know how. That don't know how to interact with other wrestlers when they're fighting.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They also do that stuff. I remember seeing that documentary. I just saw part of it about mankind.

[Unknown]

Oh, he's amazing. When he fell through the fucking chain link fence.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But there was a part where he just gets clocked in the head with a folding chair.

[Unknown]

Oh, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And it's a real folding chair. It's not. They don't use like, they don't mock anything. They pick up a real metal fucking high school auditorium folding chair and hit each other in the head with them.

[Unknown]

They don't do that anymore. There's. You're not allowed to hit in the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Head anymore because the mankind rule probably.

[Unknown]

I think because of the Chris Benoit rule.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Really?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because they realized how bad it is.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I think he did a lot to make that not allowed anymore. So. Yeah. So let's see. Wait. So repeat concussions can lead to dementia, which can contribute to severe behavioral problems, blah, blah, blah. Wait, there's one other part of. Yeah, sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It took us down a knee flying out.

[Unknown]

And we've talked about it. Also, 85 year old Alzheimer's patient, lifetime chronic concussions, head trauma.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I also kind of didn't even know what he was doing. Maybe.

[Unknown]

I think it's just such a severe personality change. Like, you know, you and I, when we're 85, are gonna act in similar ways that we do now. We're not gonna kill people. We're not gonna like you promise. I'll try my best to live to be 85.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, let's get that done first.

[Unknown]

Let's achieve that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

At that point, we might just start killing people. Because no one would.

[Unknown]

I mean, you might as well, right?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So. Yeah, but the. But he just was a different. A different person with different emotions. And different moods than the person he was raised to be and was for years and years.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Probably. So sad.

[Unknown]

It's so sad. So, Chris Benoit. That's my favorite murder this week.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's a good one.

[Unknown]

Thank you.

Did Vince actually make an appearance on this episode?

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, I don't think he's in this one. But, you know, he would come home from work while we were recording a lot, because we recorded in our apartment.

[Unknown]

I think that's what made me think of it is, like, as he's coming home from work, he pulls out the thing, his blue card of what he needs to say as he walks through the living room and goes somewhere else.

[Georgia Hardstark]

He's the one who told me about this story, too. I had no idea.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

When we started dating, he's like, here's something I can be interesting to her about. And it goes true. But there's no case updates on the story. Kind of, you know, all settled itself. But I do think a good thing is that people are looking a lot more into traumatic brain injury and how much it changes a person and then hopefully taking steps to, you know, not have that happen anymore. For example, Chris Benoit's. One of his signature moves was the diving headbutt, which is like, I don't. I really hope and don't think that that would ever happen. In fact, now on wwe, you. There's no. Almost no blood, or there's not supposed to be blood anymore, which I think is, you know, step in the right direction.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Sometimes the whole headbutt thing is, like, just cracking skulls against each other. So it's like. Because that used to be in the 80s, and maybe. Maybe it was that time of boys. In my high school, there was a whole trend of head butting. Like seniors head butting freshmen. Yes. It was horrifying.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

And they would just walk up and smash their head into, like, a little kid that would. Then they'd have to not cry in front of everybody.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was like, oh, it was, my God, so horrible. But also, as year after year passes.

[Unknown]

And people are talking about concussions, cte, all these things damaging your head like that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

No, it's so scary and awful and like, yeah, all right, well, here's some more awful. And I wonder if in the beginning.

[Unknown]

Of our podcast, it got big quickly.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because all our stories were really, really awful in the beginning, because we were like, all the stories that have stuck with us, we told them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And so every single episode had just, like, two horrific stories.

[Unknown]

Well, and also, you know, they all are in every imaginable way. But I do think what we were doing was saying, this one stuck with me. This one stuck with me. And everyone has that. Because if you follow true crime, there's a reason you got into it, and there's a reason you stayed in it. And it was that kind of thing of like, well, this has to be the worst thing I've ever heard. Oh, no. Now there's this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And I think for you and I, and then maybe everyone else, it was a little cathartic to finally get it out of that circling, circling, circling part in our brains that couldn't stop thinking about it and, like, sharing it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Absolutely.

[Unknown]

You know, and then it's like, I.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Want you to have some of this horror, too. And you're like, I got you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, I got you.

[Unknown]

And that one is also swirling in my brain. So we can all kind of relax for a second or. Or just keep on loading them up.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Whatever works.

[Unknown]

Yeah, it was a different time, 2016. It was the luxury.

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But it was also, like, proof to the people who were like, what's wrong with you? Calm down. Being like, here. Do you hear all these stories? Nothing's wrong with me. It's all fucking real. It's not. I'm not being paranoid.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Unknown]

It's not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know, Freddy Krueger is real.

[Unknown]

There's all of these things are, like, trackable and worse in real life than they are in the movies about. About horror monsters or whatever.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So speaking of, let's get into Karen's story from episode 17. This. This is the murder of Jennifer Moore.

[Unknown]

What's your favorite murder, Karen, Georgia?

[Karen Kilgariff]

My favorite murder is. I got the idea from my friend Carol Craft, who listens. Hi. She and my sister have worked together. Did work together for years. She was the school secretary. She's one of the funniest people on the planet. Carol Craft is the greatest. And she, my sister. When she told my sister she's listening to the podcast, my sister said, what's your hometown murder? And Carol immediately said, duh, it's Jennifer Moore. And then I remembered and Laura remembered. And the reason I. So I started looking it up because I was like, oh, is that that thing? And the memory, the kind of, like, central memory I have around it is my mother. Okay, so. So my hometown is Petaluma, which is the first city in Sonoma county, and Novato is the last city in Marin county. And they are right against each other. So, like, my high school, a bunch of people who lived in Novato drove up to Petaluma to Go to my high school.

[Unknown]

Got it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There wasn't a Catholic high school in Nevada.

[Unknown]

Catholic high school, yeah. Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A really small one. So I had a ton of friends that lived in Nevada. They're kind of like those two cities. You're going back and forth a lot up there. And Nevada is kind of like a bedroom community for people who work in San Francisco, commuters and stuff, because it's really nice and close to the city, but still outside enough so that you are in a nice kind of country suburb. And it's basically. It's tons of tract homes and beautiful little, like, shopping areas and oak trees and rolling fields and stuff. It's a really lovely little city.

[Unknown]

Sounds really charming.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It is charming. So my mom used to work at the Kaiser in San Rafael, which is the next big city down below Novato. And So when the 101 got backed up, which it always did because it narrowed between Nevada and Petaluma, so all of the traffic would just get all condensed. What everyone would do was get off the freeway and take the back roads. And so you go down Novato Boulevard and Nevada Boulevard takes you out to, like, Stony Point Road, which is where the. The cheese factory is. And, like, that's where you take relatives that are visiting. And it's basically a cheese factory that's way out in the country next to a lake.

[Unknown]

I used to have to drive by this whole area when I went to court reporting school in, like, not San Jose, but, like.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Court reporting school?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You never told me you went to court reporting school.

[Unknown]

Well, I never finished, but.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Excuse me. That's episode one, information. God damn it.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I worked at a. I went to court reporting reporting school. And you could do that machine, Georgia, Because I worked at a court reporting office, and these women made, like, so much money, and it was fascinating to just sit in depositions, which is like. I would just sit there and read depositions all day.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's amazing.

[Unknown]

Probably illegal. So I decided to go to court reporting school. But it's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I'm jealous. I'm angry. I have all these feelings running through me right now.

[Unknown]

I'm sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's okay.

[Unknown]

Go ahead. Sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I. We're. We'll talk later. So my mom was driving home on the. We call it the back road. So basically just. It's like you're cutting around through the country to get up to Petaluma out of Novato, and on the way out of Novato, there's Indian Valley Golf Course, there's Stafford Lake, and then, you know, on. So it gets Very country, very quickly out right outside the city. That's cool. So my mom was driving home one night and it was dusk, and she saw cops on the side of the road and she saw them pulling garbage bags out of a ditch. And when she got home, she saw on the news. And I'm almost positive we were there with her because I can remember, but I do this all the time where I can write memories very easily, for sure. I feel like I remember my mom having a freak out because she saw on the news they had finally discovered the body of the little girl who had had gone missing four days earlier. And that was this girl, Jennifer Moore. So she. My mom actually saw them find the body, which is.

[Unknown]

Wow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

When my sister reminded me of it in this text, I was like, this is epic. I'm. I couldn't be more proud.

[Unknown]

Isn't it weird that your brain can just lose these moments? Like, we talk about this every week. Murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And I never thought about it.

[Unknown]

Lost.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it's just kind of not. It's so filed so far back. So essentially this is what happened. Jennifer Moore was 13 years old. And on Thursday, April 13, 19, 1989, she called her mom at work crying because she had gotten three Cs on her report card. So her mom said, go walk down and buy some ice cream. And so, and this is another thing where I didn't. I didn't look into it, but it pretty much sounded like she was being raised by a single mother and she was latchkeying, just like we all did. So she goes to walk down to the Baskin Robbins on Nevada Boulevard, which, as I was reading this, I was like, I knew exactly where all of this was as I was reading it. And so when the mom comes home from work that night, Jennifer's not there. And she knows from the last time she talked to her, when she told her to go get ice cream, it was way, way, way too long for her not to be there. She knew she wasn't a Runway. I read in this article, interestingly enough, the age 12 to 14 are prime runaway years. And so anytime someone is that age and they call to report them missing, the copyright have the habit of assuming this is what it is, because that's usually the. Or it's commonly the case. Yeah, but of course, the mother assured them this is. This is very wrong. She didn't run away. All of her stuff is in a room. Her purse is in a room. Like, all she did was take the money for the ice cream.

[Unknown]

I was a runaway. Did you ever Run away?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, I think I. When I was like five. Cause I was gonna show my mom and I basically took a suitcase out to the road and then came back inside immediately.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Packed a suitcase, put under the bed. I did stay out during my. When I was like 13. My drug years. Yeah. Stay out all like overnight. And they straight up called the cops and. Yeah, I was. I was a runaway.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, they should have, though.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's good, though.

[Unknown]

I know. I feel so bad about that. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You didn't know you were on drugs?

[Unknown]

I was, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So the cops check her school records. They see that she's had perfect attendance and that she'syou know, that's not the person that we're talking about. So they start looking into it. Two days pass and they start handing out the have you seen me Flyers. Which of course, again, seems a little late for me.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Very late.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't like it, but I think that this is 1989. So back then they were like, we just wanna see. Probably is the idea. So on day three, a person driving down Nevada Boulevard sees garbage bags in a ditch on the side of the road and goes and looks in them and finds Jennifer's nude body.

[Unknown]

Oh, that poor person who found them, do you think he knew what was going on? Like, what was looking for?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, he. There's a very good chance he saw on the news because this was all over the news. This little girl's face. Have you seen me? This girl's missing. So it did hit the news, like, the next night. Okay, so maybe that flyer thing was just the cops, like on the streets doing it, because I remember that. Well, I shouldn't say that because I don't know the exact chronology.

[Unknown]

But do you remember, like, the big. Is it the small enough town where it's like, this is what everyone's talking about 100% because this doesn't happen 100%.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is a town just like Petaluma, where people did not lock their doors back then. And when you see this picture, it's such a nice 1989 picture. She's got braces, she's got these bangs. She's got the big hoop earrings. Like, she's so cute. And she just looks like a girl from your junior high. Those kill me.

[Unknown]

These sweet kids. Yeah. I always. When I see them, I always say, I'm so sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know, I know. So, yeah, this poor motorist. That is my theory, I should say. I think that that person saw that a girl was missing on the news, and then when they saw the Garbage bags pulled over and checked. And then their worst nightmare was confirmed. So everyone's in the in between time. Of course, no one let their children leave the house. No one. There were no latchkey kids.

[Unknown]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Once it was announced that she was missing. So the cops look at the plastic bags, and inside, I should say plastic bag. I think it was just the one big garbage bag. At the bottom there were a Sunday school, like leaflets. And one of the policemen recognized it as that. Oh, my kids use those at their Sunday school. So this is like probably a local church Sunday school leaflet. So they decide to start checking all the churches nearby. And they map out from her house to the ice cream parlor what churches are in between. And so they go to Bethel Baptist Church on Nevada Boulevard and they notice when the cops show up there, they notice there's four big garbage cans outside. Two of them have garbage, garbage liners, garbage bags inside of them, and two don't. So they go over and check. It's the same type of garbage.

[Unknown]

So this probably had happened in the last day.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes. Yeah. They. They immediately are like, okay, this is, you know, like, this is can't be a coincidence. Or like would be a very. The probability of that being a coincidence.

[Unknown]

I love when puzzle pieces fit together. Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And that they're, you know, this might be a little makeup work. But I. Everything I read in this, it was like the cops were like eagle eyed. And I think that is that thing of a tiny town where it's everybody's daughter.

[Unknown]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So. So they see that they match. They see that it's a match of the same type of garbage bag. And they go and immediately get bloodhounds. And they have the bloodhounds, they have them sent on Jennifer's clothing. And then the bloodhounds take them directly back to Jennifer's house. So they know that this is where she ended up. This is the church. So she basically took a shortcut from her house through a creek area that was in the back of the church, then up through the church. So they go into the church to look for evidence, and they talk to the pastor there who shows them something weird that he had noticed. There was a coffee cup that had been like the coffee had been spilled in the library, but no one had picked the coffee cup back up off the floor. So it was just this coffee stain. And it was weird to him because beverages were not allowed in the, in the church library. So, you know, it's weird enough that someone made that spill, but then they didn't even clean up half of it, basically. So the crime lab comes, pulls up the carpet, tests it. There's blood and bleach.

[Unknown]

So in the same spot? Yeah. Oh, so he spilled the coffee over it to hide it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, There was a big blood stain, but so he was like, nope, it's a coffee stain. Here's a coffee cup. Oh, so, you know, don't worry about this coffee stain.

[Unknown]

Oh, my goodness.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So they get onto that immediately. And then when detectives search the rest of the church, they find a brown bomber jacket at the bottom of their clothing donation bin. And it was the jacket that Jennifer wore when she left the house to go get ice cream. So now they know. And they check the pockets she had the rubber bands for. Her braces were in the pocket. So they know it was hers. So now they know. This is the. We've got a location. So the pastor remembers that he'd gotten to work early Friday morning. She had disappeared Thursday. And when he got there, the door was not only unlocked, it was a jar. So basically, there were three people on Thursday night that were at the church that could have been involved. One was the janitor, one was the youth pastor, and one was the teenager that was helping the youth pastor with gardening.

[Unknown]

Can I guess? Yes, the youth.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hell, yeah. It's the youth pastor.

[Unknown]

Oh, wait, no, I was guessing the kid. Oh, shit. Damn.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You know what's really funny? That you just said that. And maybe this is the way it's going. I read a bunch of articles about this, but it's such a small town and it was so long ago. I could only get these little short ones from the LA Times and, of course, Wikipedia. But then I found the transcript for a TV show called Eye Detective. Have you ever seen that show? So I don't think it's on anymore. It was on Court tv. It's that old. But basically, they would lay out a true crime story, and then they. They would tell you the evidence that the cops found and then go, is it A, the youth? B, remember that? And you would make a guess. Then they would tell you what the right answer is and why. So you were kind of basically learning how cops do their procedural shit as you watch.

[Unknown]

Oh, that sounds fucking awesome.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So I stumble upon a transcript for the episode about the Jennifer Moore murder.

[Unknown]

Holy shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So you just intuited something. I think you should be very proud of yourself.

[Unknown]

But at the same time, I thought that the youth pastor and the janitor were too, too obvious.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I just cheered because it was the youth pastor. There's always going to be victims in this show. So it turns out that the kid that was helping the youth pastor garden had a record and was a bad kid. But his grandma had come and picked him up at 6:30 that night. And so he had an alibi. And then the janitor wasn't at home when they went to go question him. So he was really high up on the list. And then they go visit the youth pastor and he's a 29 year old ex marine named Scott Williams. He owns a gas station nearby. He's a Sunday school teacher, whatever. He works at the church all the time. So he every. He's well liked by the community. All the stuff we always hear. So they go talk to him and he admits that he was the last person to leave on Thursday night. And he can't account for his whereabouts that night. He's kind of saying there was a meeting at the gas station. Oh, but I did miss it because I was doing, you know, the gardening or whatever. And he's real evasive. So they're, they're like, we don't like this guy. And then adding up. Yeah, exactly. And then he suggests that he take a polygraph. So they're like, oh, well that's a good way to dissuade anybody. You're insisting you're innocent. Well, he fails the polygraph test. And at the end of it the polygraph examiner, who I believe was from the FBI because they brought the FBI in really early.

[Unknown]

That's so smart.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so smart.

[Unknown]

I wish more of that would have happened in a lot of cases.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I know. Just get the big boys in. It's not an insult. So they bring. So at the end of the polygraph the examiner says, you killed Jennifer Moore. And he cracks and cops to the whole thing.

[Unknown]

Holy shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Which I think is so brilliant because usually in movies and stuff the polygraph examiner is just all dry and like, did you, did you not? And making little checks and doesn't care.

[Unknown]

But he was like looking at this evidence, here's the conclusion.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And basically played a poker game of like, wow, you did it. And then he was just like, you're right, I did it.

[Unknown]

I just think that's so interesting. Had he ever killed anyone or any hit a record?

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Unknown]

No priors.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No priors.

[Unknown]

That's so interesting to me because I feel like the people who crack and break down are almost like the people who insist and just fucking lie about it are more sociopathic to me than the people who like feel. They feel the remorse and so they break down and cry because they can't even fucking deal with it themselves.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. And usually I would say, I would wager that those people are the ones that's the one off or the moment or the, you know, whatever it is.

[Unknown]

Opportunity.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly. And that's what this was because he shows them the rope burn on his hand where he, he strangled her with a piece of rope. So he's just like, he said, the quote is, I murdered her, I raped her, I strangled her and I bludgeoned her. So then they know, they know they have him. It's not just like coincidental or that he's been manipulated. He was very specific and basically totally barfed it out.

[Unknown]

What a piece of shit.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So then the cops go to his house and they start talking to his wife, who of course is freaking out.

[Unknown]

The wife.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The wife always.

[Unknown]

Oh, honey.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then she tells the cops that they had recently gotten into a fight because of the huge bills he was racking up on those 976 numbers from the 80s. Do you remember?

[Unknown]

Is that like sex talk numbers?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sex talk numbers that were. Now they're illegal.

[Unknown]

Are they illegal?

[Karen Kilgariff]

They're like, there's all kinds of FCC regulations. So they're not like it used to be. There's 976 commercials the second it was past 10:00 at night. That's all TV was.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And when they look into it, he had huge bills and his were for a child porn. There's a phone sex. There was.

[Unknown]

Was there?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, I mean, he found. I don't know. I did. That's all the line said.

[Unknown]

That seems like a fucking FBI setup right there.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, and yeah, I mean, I don't think this needs to be said, but I bet they weren't real children. Sorry.

[Unknown]

I agree.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But I do want to clarify. These would be actresses. Yeah, phone actresses. Anyway, so basically he tells the story. He's working outside of the church and Jennifer is cutting through from the creek through the parking lot. And he sees her and he gets this idea in his head and so that he's going to like seduce her. So he says, hey, do you want a Coke? Come in, it's hot outside or whatever. And lures her into the library, makes a move on her, she freaks out, tries to run, he grabs her, rapes her and as he said, strangles her and hits her in the head. All in the church library. Oh, honey, church. Let's just remember these things, that this is when people have any kind of religious thing that they're does sometimes let's be suspicious of that. Even on the outset.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That a lot of people use religion to hide behind.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Humans are humans. And just because you're of a specific group of humans doesn't mean that they're. You're exempt from being a terrible person.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Exactly. Anyone good can go to that place on Sunday and sit there in silence and act. Anyone can act.

[Unknown]

Yeah. And believe that they're. They're right and they're a good person. It's not like you even are like, I'm hiding this secret. I'm a bad person. You're just like, oh, I am exempted from this because. Because God. Yeah. And the Bible.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So he got first degree murder, got a life sentence, no possibility of parole.

[Unknown]

Thank God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Every ounce of this research, I was like, yay cops, Yay judge. It rarely happens. We can celebrate it. And that's it. That's the Jennifer Moore murder of Novatok.

[Unknown]

That is exhausting and sad and horrible.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Do they. Is latchkey kids still a thing?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't think so. Well, I was talking to my sister and I told her this is the story that I'm doing. And she goes, yeah. And that's why we never let kids go anywhere ever by themselves, ever.

[Unknown]

Right.

Like my.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Our friend Adrian has a daughter who's 18 and she was going to the dentist to get. But she was gonna be sedated.

[Unknown]

Oh my goodness.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And Adrian called my sister and goes, can you go with her? Yeah, she's gonna be sedated.

[Unknown]

I've heard that about dentist office though. Like there was, you know, one who would insist that the kid came alone back there and the mom was like, well, go fuck yourself. And wouldn't take the kid to the dentist.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Because again, doctors, priests, whatever it is, we don't know. We don't know. It doesn't mean automatically that that's a good moral outstanding person.

[Unknown]

Well, I'm trying to think, if I had like a 12 year old son or daughter, would I be comfortable with going home from school after. After school and being alone and like. Yeah, kind of. Would you be comfortable with them? Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not these days.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I mean, not with.

[Unknown]

I'm surprised. I'm being, I'm saying that and being so naive, which I don't know if it is, but 12 is pretty. I guess once I see a 12 year old, they'd be like, oh, no, nevermind.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But I mean, it's weird because. Because we did it from when we were like eight.

[Unknown]

Oh, totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think it's just that cultural thing where like when everyone does it, it's not that big of a deal.

[Unknown]

Yeah. And also when you have siblings, it's. It's better because you have other people around. When it's an only child, it's a little.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. If you have people to escape the house with when the murder comes in.

[Unknown]

The front door or just someone. You guys have to be responsible for each other. So you're just a little more careful.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And a little more bitter. Like my sister was all of our lives.

[Unknown]

Absolutely.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That she had to constantly take me to the bathroom. Bathroom. She's so angry.

[Unknown]

For 20 years, my sister always had to pick my napkin up off the floor when I threw it on the ground when I was in a high chair. Fuck it. She hates me to this day.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like you were making her dance like a monkey for you.

[Unknown]

Get my napkin, Lee. Go pick that up. Hates me. Thanks, mom and dad.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's a thing. It's. It sucks to be the older sister. That's for sure.

[Unknown]

That's true. Being the baby is the best. Yeah, well, that was.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Well, that's what we do. If you don't like it, we understand.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Yeah. My favorite murdershirts.com. we're like, give us money now that we've ruined your day. Now that you'll have nightmares.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I think the psychology of that actually holds up, though. Thank you for ruining my day.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

At least we're doing something.

[Unknown]

You know what I mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

At least it's something. It makes me feel alive.

[Unknown]

I feel like there's little bits and pieces of this podcast that make. That'll either make people safer, more aware, less grateful. Yeah. And maybe somewhere like grateful. Yeah. Maybe somewhere change something for the. For good. For the good. Maybe someone will be on a jury someday and be like, oh, you can't let this guy. Totally did it. And he did do it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Maybe we'll win a Peabody Award.

[Unknown]

That was the next thing I was going to say. Maybe we'll be crowned Queen Victoria. Queen Vicky.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, I mean, you know, it's. Yeah. Finally I'm Queen Vicki because of a podcast.

[Unknown]

When do we get to be Queen Vicky? For once in our lives, it's always.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Those British people that get to be the queen. Why can't I?

[Unknown]

But we are. We're Queen of fucking Murder podcast.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, so we're back. Any case updates?

[Unknown]

No case updates on this one. Scott Williams is still in prison. He's 64. I guess my only case update is that Carol Craft, who is my sister's friend, who recommended this story to me is a long time, maybe even day one. Listener of my favorite murder and every other podcast that we have on this network. And she calls my sister and tells her things she likes every week and, like, says stuff. And she is the ultimate, like, stage mother, but also just as like a celebrator. And I love you, Carol Craft.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If you hear this, you're the greatest. You are.

[Unknown]

And we all think so.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Can I have a personal Carol Craft corner in my life where she just can tells me those things and, like, hypes me up a little?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I just need to hear what she's saying sometimes.

[Unknown]

And she does it like this where she has this huge smile on her face like she's delighted and she's kind of like, I loved that one. And it's. It's the best feeling.

Yeah, that's so lovely.

Yeah, I'll try to pass it on next time. Now that we have context.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, so let's end this by talking about titles for episode 17 that we would now name the episode based on what we name them after now, which is silly little things we say during the episode.

[Unknown]

I mean, I. I do, and I kind of say this at almost every time with these old pun, but I think this one is especially good. I think, like, it just. It's very satisfying to the eye when you see it as the title.

[Georgia Hardstark]

But podcasting isn't a visual entertainment.

[Unknown]

Not until we got in the game, baby. We're changing it all up.

That's right.

And it's not a visual game, and it's also not a steal other people's titles game. But hey, we do it the way we want.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sure do.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So let's see.

[Unknown]

So Georgia was describing the podcast in the intro, and she actually used the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Phrase the ride of your life.

[Unknown]

So that would be a really good title.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That would be Karen talking about when we were talking about depression meals and being home alone as a kid and making your own meals. The episode could be called Loaf of.

[Unknown]

Toast, which is so accurate, so delicious.

Also, my story basically renaming the episode the Bed's on fire because of the story of me lighting the bed on fire.

Classic.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, and then toasting the tea is us talking about how Ted Bundy looked like a guy in a lifted tea commercial. And I also tried to smoke tea leaves. I fashioned a tea leaf cigarette with.

[Unknown]

Paper towels as a kid.

What a smooth smoke.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, it was beautiful.

[Unknown]

12 year old around the side of the pool house.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

All right, well, thanks for listening to.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Another episode of Rewind, guys.

[Unknown]

We do these every Wednesday. Come back for the next bunch. We're just like kind of going through our Filo facts of early episodes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Do it with us.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's gonna get crazier and crazier too. Like, the bigger we realize things are getting.

[Unknown]

I feel like the.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's just this energy.

[Unknown]

The energy. And also. Yeah, the energy. They're gonna be. I feel like, less cringe. We're gonna get better at it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

There's gonna be.

[Unknown]

There's gonna be more communication. It'll be great.

Yeah.

Until then, stay sexy and don't get murdered.

Goodbye, Elvis. Do you want a cookie?