Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 19: Nineteen Kills and Counting

Summary

Podcast Summary: My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
Episode: Rewind with Karen & Georgia - Episode 19: Nineteen Kills and Counting

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Introduction to Rewind Episode 19

In this special edition of "Rewind with Karen & Georgia," hosts Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark revisit Episode 19: Nineteen Kills and Counting, originally released on June 2, 2016. This episode delves into the harrowing case of the Freeway Phantom, an unidentified serial killer responsible for the abduction, rape, and strangulation of six African American girls in the Washington D.C. area between April 1971 and September 1972.

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Reflection on Early Podcast Days

Karen Kilgariff (02:04) and Georgia Hardstark (02:17) reminisce about the podcast's inception and the challenges they faced during the early episodes. They humorously recount technical mishaps, such as microphone issues and episode numbering errors, highlighting the raw and unpolished nature of their initial broadcasts.

Notable Quote:

Georgia Hardstark (04:05): "Some of my favorite fights, because I do the Irish thing where I won't say anything, and then all of a sudden I'm out. I'll just be Irish. Goodbye, you."

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Deep Dive into the Freeway Phantom Case

The core of Episode 19 centers on the Freeway Phantom, whose spree left a lasting impact on the community. Diana (19:43) narrates the sequence of events, detailing each victim’s abduction and murder. The victims ranged in age from 10 to 18, and all were African American girls. The killer, whose identity remains unknown, left behind chilling notes and meticulous signs that perplexed investigators.

Key Details:

• First Victim: Carol Spinks, 13, abducted near a 7-Eleven and found six days later.
• Subsequent Victims: Darlenia Johnson (16), Brenda Crockett (10), and others, all found near freeway areas.
• Notable Incident: Brenda Crockett (21:07) made unsettling phone calls to her family before her tragic end, raising questions about the killer’s methods and intentions.

Notable Quote:

Diana (23:06): "And nobody knows that."

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Investigation Challenges and Suspects

The investigation into the Freeway Phantom was extensive, involving over two dozen detectives and the FBI. However, progress was stymied by various factors, including political interference during the Watergate scandal.

Suspect Highlight: Robert Askins – A web developer with a criminal history involving rapes and homicides of prostitutes. Despite circumstantial evidence linking him to the crimes and peculiar behavior, such as frequent use of the word "tantamount," Askins was never charged due to insufficient evidence and eventually died in prison in 2010.

Notable Quote:

Diana (31:16): "But how is he using the word tantamount correctly?"

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Modern Efforts and Case Status

Years later, efforts to solve the case focused on DNA analysis. Unfortunately, crucial evidence was lost or destroyed, impeding progress. Diana (33:19) expresses frustration over the lack of updates and the systemic issues that prevent cold cases from being resolved.

Notable Quote:

Karen Kilgariff (34:16): "It's just sickening. I mean, it's happening less and less, but the fact that it still happens at all is just a disgrace."

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Karen’s Segment: Anders Breivik Mass Shooting

Shifting gears, Karen shares her recounting of Anders Breivik’s horrific attacks in Norway on July 22, 2011. Breivik executed a two-part attack:

1. Bombing in Oslo: Delivered a bomb in a van to government buildings, killing eight and injuring 209.
2. Mass Shooting on Utoya Island: Disguised as a police officer, he massacred 68 children and young adults at a summer camp.

Key Points:

• Motivation: Breivik was driven by extreme right-wing ideology and a desire to eradicate Muslims and cultural Marxists.
• Response: Local heroes, including fishermen and fellow campers, rescued over 150 children despite the chaos.
• Legal Outcome: Diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia but later found criminally sane, Breivik was sentenced to preventive detention, which can be extended indefinitely.

Notable Quote:

Karen Kilgariff (61:23): "It's absolutely a message. And it was this kind of thing of like, we need to take our country back and this is how we're going to deliver the message to these politicians and to these people who are, quote, unquote, allowing things to happen."

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Closing Reflections

The hosts express deep sorrow over the unresolved Freeway Phantom case and the brutality of Breivik’s actions. They emphasize the importance of seeking justice for victims and address the systemic flaws that hinder criminal investigations. Additionally, they acknowledge the evolution of the podcast and their commitment to continuously improve and address sensitive topics with the appropriate gravity.

Notable Quote:

Georgia Hardstark (44:02): "This story still is just so heartbreaking."

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Conclusion

This "Rewind" episode serves as a poignant reminder of the dark chapters in true crime history and the enduring quest for justice. Through candid discussions, reflections on past challenges, and in-depth case analyses, Karen and Georgia provide listeners with both informative and empathetic narratives, staying true to the essence of "My Favorite Murder."

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Note: The timestamps referenced correspond to the moments in the provided transcript where notable quotes and discussions occur.

Transcript

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is exactly right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Calling all thrill seekers and mystery enthusiasts, have you checked out the new television series Cross on Prime Video? Based upon the character created by James Patterson, this is Detective Alex Cross like you've never seen him before. It's a cat and mouse edge of your seat thrill ride that will keep you guessing. Cross stars Aldous Hodge as Alex Cross, DC's lead investigator and forensic psychologist. With a serial killer terrorizing dc, Cross finds himself in a race against the clock to save the latest victim. Follow Cross as he navigates a maze of clues, uncovers dark secrets and corruption, all while someone from his past is threatening his family. You'll be rooting for Alex Cross and loving the killer soundtrack. Get ready to tune in and work the case. Watch Cross a new series only on Prime Video. Watch now.

[Diana]

Goodbye, lady to lady to lady to lady to Lady Podcast.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's funny ladies doing funny lady stuff.

[Diana]

On lady to Lady Podcast.

[Karen Kilgariff]

New episodes every Wednesday on Lady to Lady Podcast. Lady to lady to lady to lady to Lady Podcast. Check out lady to lady new episodes every Wednesday on the exactly right network.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hello and welcome to Rewind with Karen and Georgia.

[Erin]

If you don't know, this is our extra Wednesday podcast where we go and revisit our earliest episodes. We react to what we used to be like, and we give you any case updates that we might have for the stories that we tell you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And today we're rewinding to episode 19, which came out on Thursday, June 2, 2016, called 19 Kills and Counting, which I didn't get for a second because it's been so long since that show.

[Erin]

I still don't get it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

19 kids and counting.

[Diana]

Wasn't that the Duggar TV show?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was a dug.

[Erin]

This is a Duggar reference episode. It's a disaster from the begin, right from the start. So now it's time for you to grab a glass of water and the person who cuts your hair and your favorite cuddle buddy. And you can all listen along because now because of rewind, we can all be day one listeners.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Okay, let's listen to the intro of episode 19.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is recording now.

[Diana]

Mm. Am I gonna really annoy you if I keep telling you not to hold that part of this?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, no, I need it.

[Diana]

Is I gonna annoy you, though? I feel like at some point you're gonn. Yeah, I'm gonna murder you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Let's plan out our first fight.

[Diana]

Now I'll start crying immediately.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I feel like anytime we've even come within 30 miles of the slightest fight, we have a total talk Down.

[Diana]

Yeah. You'll be like, I wanna talk to you about something.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep.

[Diana]

I like that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did I say that?

[Diana]

No. That we both. Yeah, I like that. I think it's because we started our friendship at a place of vulnerability.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Diana]

By talking about literally being vulnerable.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right. And also when I think about being in a fight with you, it makes me immediately want to start crying. I'm just like, I can't have it. I just can't. I'll do anything to make sure it doesn't happen.

[Diana]

Yay. That makes. I'm going to do so much shit now. Now that I know I have fucking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Carte blanche, free reign.

[Diana]

Fuck with you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, I will. I'm not saying I won't very firmly confront you.

[Diana]

Right. It's not a fight if you're just screaming at me.

[Karen Kilgariff]

If I scream you down into a corner.

[Diana]

Yeah. That's not technically a fight. If it's one punch and I'm out, that's not a fight.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Some of my favorite fights, because I do the Irish thing where I won't say anything, and then all of a sudden I'm out. I'll just be Irish. Goodbye, you.

[Diana]

I think I know that. And that's why I'm like. That's what I'm scared of.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. But that's why I'm saying I'll be very. I'll be total conversations at the jump at the slightest thing. That's why I'll always be like, here's how I feel. Here's my thing. And here's my. I need you to know my thing.

[Diana]

We're adults and we know our thing. This way now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep. You gotta say your thing. You know what? It's only fair that you give the other person a chance. You say, here's the thing and give the other person a chance.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Diana]

And you'll know by their response whether or not there's someone that you can have a lifelong relationship with. Or at least for the next few weeks until we do it again.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Until our podcast gets out of the top 10. Are we out already? We must be.

[Diana]

We're not. I checked today. Excuse me. That was loud.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That was the best reaction.

[Diana]

No, it's. So we're still. You guys are in the top 10. ITunes, comedy podcasts. We were number one a week ago. I'm disappointed in you guys. No, I'm not. I love you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Don't say that. So do we.

[Diana]

Maybe the reason we're not number one anymore is because we haven't. Nobody knows what podcasts is. Hey, this Is my favorite murder.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah. This is my favorite murder.

[Diana]

Starring Georgia Hartstark and Karen Calgaria.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We say each other's names if that. If you're trying to figure out who's talking. I always say Georgia Heartstark. It's like a cute. I think it's things. People do it on the radio a lot.

[Diana]

It's cute. Did you so on our. On our fucking storied famed Facebook group that everyone loves that has 1100. 11,000. Holy 11.

[Karen Kilgariff]

The last time I looked, it was nine.

[Diana]

11,000 people in it. And they're all cool somehow. They're all fucking cool because everybody gets that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Everybody else wants everybody to be cool.

[Diana]

Yeah. And when they're not cool and they, like, get a talking to, they're like, I'm sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Cool.

[Diana]

Someone. Our last names are Kill Hard together.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, fuck yeah.

[Diana]

Hard Kill. Hard Kill, Hard Start and Kilgera.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I like that a lot. That's. They are kind of badassy murder names.

[Diana]

It's almost like fucking fate.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's fucking fate.

[Diana]

Hard Kill, that's the name of our TV show.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's a good idea. The Hard Kill.

[Diana]

The Hard Kill, the book we write together about.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I feel like if we do the Hard Kill, we should both dress up as, like, we should dress up like kind of 70s news anchors.

[Diana]

I was going to think you were going to say spy versus Spy and.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Try to kill each other, but we have to be vulnerable about it and really discuss it.

[Diana]

Yeah. Like, sad.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I feel like I want to come at you with a knife, but Hard.

[Diana]

Kill is definitely 70s anchor women.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Where like, we have bows at the.

[Diana]

Neck and feathered hair.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You have feathered hair.

[Diana]

You. Because you already have this great. Do feathered hair. I'll do like a Mary Lou Retton bowl cut.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God.

[Diana]

How great would that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hard Kill. Let's do this thing.

[Diana]

Is anyone listening who wants to make a TV show?

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're specifically talking about fxx. If anyone from FXX is listening, we just call out, well, you know what? That's how they do it on the Secret. You just ask for what you want to the universe or, you know, podcast.

[Diana]

To your podcast listeners.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I just sit in at work today, everybody had a conversation about how they don't understand what podcasts are and they don't understand why they're popular. And I just sit there, like, with my dirty secret that I have two podcasts.

[Diana]

I'm just looking around. You fucking. They bring you joy. Like, you don't even just have them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I almost, at one point Said it's kind of like if you could control the radio.

[Diana]

It's a radio show.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's a radio. If you liked what you were listening to on the radio, that's kind of what it's like.

[Diana]

It's a radio show and there are various topics. All that span everything. And you're always going to find one you're interested in.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, it's basically. Do you like two dudes just interrupting each other? They've got that.

[Diana]

They've got a lot of that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They've got that. Do you like two grown women who talk like they're in junior high about murder?

[Diana]

We're here.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We've got hello and welcome.

[Diana]

That's us.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's us.

[Diana]

Nobody knew that you had two podcasts.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, Kreisel knows, my boss knows, but he wasn't saying anything.

[Diana]

Yeah, he was like keeping your secret.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And Fred knows because he's been on one of them.

[Diana]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But he was just. It was just everybody kind of. I had that exact same feeling before I started listening to podcasts. I was like, why would anyone want to listen to standup comics talking? That's all I've listened to for the past 20 years of my life. It's so boring.

[Diana]

Unless you're really shit faced or just npr. Nobody likes fucking. Nevermind. I'm not going to talk shit on them.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, let's not beat show talkers. What I do like is cool music jams. That's how I usually spend my time. If I'm going to just listen to something.

[Diana]

Not me fucking audio book.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You're all about that freak. But then you know when the first couple times I listen to podcasts driving home to San Francisco on the five, you fall asleep. God bless. No, it got. It makes the ride feel like it's an hour long.

[Diana]

I have a friend who was on a fucking road trip with her boyfriend this weekend texting me. We're listening. We're on episode 12. Like totally into it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Don't you love? There was a couple people who are sending who are posting on the Facebook page. Why don't you guys have an episode 12? Well, it turns out we do. That's our bodies. Our twelves. Oh yeah, another. A great title. I'll say it myself. But I was immediately like, oh shoot. Because of when we misnumbered the other ones.

[Diana]

Oh yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

When we thought 15 was 16. I assumed they were right immediately. But it was some weird thing with glitch. Yeah, it was an itunes glitch or something. Glitch.

[Diana]

Okay, we're back and we're back.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Should we discuss this topic of having our first fight? Should we open that can of worms?

[Erin]

Well, hey, look, I mean, that, first of all, that mistake that I did make with the microphone, which I made almost every episode for, like, maybe the first 20, 30. I don't know. But it was. I didn't really listen back often, but when I did, I was just like, what is happening? And it was me just jiggling the mic as I was talking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I don't. I don't. I totally don't remember. And we held microphones. We were. They were handheld for so long.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Way longer than we should have. Way longer than most podcasts know to do.

[Diana]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So it's inevitable that there's gonna be, you know, outside noises that happen.

[Erin]

I think it'd be some issues.

[Diana]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I think for some reason, I'm really susceptible to noises.

[Diana]

I'm not.

[Georgia Hardstark]

For some reason, it's because I'm fucking have anxiety. But I'm really aware of, like, little noises that could be in the background more so than other people.

[Diana]

So I'm always the, like, hold for.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Sound person, even though I'm not the sound person, you know?

[Diana]

Or like, do you guys hear that? We should.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We should pause. So I think I'm just hyper aware of that.

[Erin]

Yeah. And you have a sensitivity toward it.

[Diana]

Yes.

[Erin]

Whereas I clearly am completely deaf to it. And I'm like, I not only don't know what you're talking about, I'm not doing it.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It's not your job.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's not my job.

[Erin]

And also, I just will flatly deny that it's happening and then listen back to the episode and just be like, that's so distracting and so irritating.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's why we have sound people now.

[Diana]

What's up, guys?

[Erin]

I mean, here's the thing. We finally started releasing on one day, and we got that cadence correct. You can't expect us to also have good sound. Come on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Right. It's only episode 19. But the thing is, we already have 11,000 people in the Facebook group by then.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

That's a lot. For 19 episodes.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It is.

[Diana]

That happened quick, too.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah.

[Erin]

The whole fucking thing went really fast. But we start to become aware that other people are aware of us and don't like it. And that was very strange because it's almost suddenly, it's the. We're being observed. And, of course, that changes something inherently.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Absolutely.

[Erin]

And that idea of, like, somebody's saying we're making fun of murder, which we're like, no, we're not. But then.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Well, that's the thing is, like, they're saying they don't like it. They don't like the idea of it. They've never listened to it. Which we completely understand.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

True crime and comedy together. Those words don't make sense together.

[Erin]

And we are flippant about it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So there's. It's like.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And we also don't give a fuck if you haven't listened and you don't like it.

[Erin]

Right. But, like, in those early days, you know, we've listened back. It's a harsh listen to go like, oh, yeah, we shouldn't have said that. We shouldn't have said it that way. We should have had a kind of a more meta awareness of what we were doing and other people listening to it, you know, but we just. We didn't because we are just regular people that were talking into microphones.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah. But what we learned is to take the true crime part seriously and the comedy part around. That's how I explain it to someone.

[Diana]

Who'S like, what do you do?

[Georgia Hardstark]

And then I tell them about the podcast. I'm like, okay, but we don't. The comedy is not the story part. The comedy is that, you know, we have this anxiety around the idea that these things happen in our society and they're terrifying. And our way of coping with horror and terror and fear is through laughing together and humor. It's not about the stories we're telling with the victims or the, you know, horrible things that are happening.

[Diana]

Yeah.

[Erin]

I also think that awareness is. Then suddenly the focus becomes, how are we being criticized as opposed to all the other people who get it? Because there's all these people who get it and are showing up to say they get it. And I'm so happy to hear, like, this being discussed the way you're discussing it. There's plenty of people doing that, but those people disappear when someone comes and says, you're a bad person.

[Diana]

Yeah.

[Erin]

It's a very, very strange kind of, like, that awareness. I'll never get over it because it's just so weird. You're being perceived and you're being judged and people think you're a bad person and there's nothing you can do about.

[Georgia Hardstark]

It except for the day or the episode 19 listeners. Those people are not judging us.

[Erin]

No, not.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We appreciate you.

[Erin]

Never. Also, the idea that I was talking about my job at the time. So Erin put this together, and her theory is that I worked on Portland because I was telling stories about my boss, Jon Kreisel, and Fred Armisen But I think that's also the funniest thing of working on that show and at one point transitioning from that show to a second show.

[Diana]

Right.

[Erin]

But doing this podcast the entire time, it was just like the most exhausting, insane. And I was just like, oh, I can't quit any of these things.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You can't?

[Erin]

Yeah, I can't quit anymore.

[Diana]

All of them are like, you can't.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Not yet.

[Erin]

Keep all these chips on the table.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was wild.

[Erin]

It was a wild time. And also then it's like you're doing. I had to do homework on top of that homework. And I don't like homework. We've talked about this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I know, but do you think you're a workaholic kind of?

[Erin]

Absolutely.

[Diana]

Do you think you'd be like one.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Of those 1950s absent dads who has like a bachelor apartment in the. In the city because he just is.

[Diana]

At work all day?

[Erin]

Yeah, I think I would have like a one main family and two secret families. I wouldn't be able to.

[Diana]

It's a lot of work. You need the work.

[Erin]

Yeah, I need it. I need it. I need the drama and the problems. But also, I think it's just that when you, like, move to LA because you think you're going to be in show business and you have one idea of what show business is, you have no fucking clue what show business is. And what show business is is fucking 16 hour days. Do you want to be in this or not? Because we can get somebody else that, you know will replace you in one day. Like, it is constant hustle. Tough. It is a tough business. So that was my thing, always was like, I got to pay these bills and I got to keep it going.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And it's like you're throwing all these. You have all these pans in the fire.

[Diana]

Is that what they say?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Because you don't know what's going to, like, create the biggest fucking explosion. I don't know where this is coming from, but you have no idea. Is it going to be Portlandia? Which obviously that's huge. And it's itself, but it's like. But you still have to think of what's next because there's only eight episodes. What are you doing after that?

[Erin]

Exactly? When that run is done, you immediately you have to do such a good job that people recommend you for your next job.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And this is.

[Erin]

Now we're talking 2016 era. The rooms are so much smaller now. There's so many fewer writing jobs now.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's rough.

[Erin]

I mean, it's crazy. But then also the idea that my pan in the fire of a podcast with my friend Georgia that I'd met six months prior. It's wild. All right, so Georgia goes first on this episode. So here is her story about the so called Freeway Phantom. Since the holidays mean spending more on gifts, food and travel, don't give money away to forgotten subscriptions.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Rocket Money helps you find and cancel old subscriptions so you can put that extra cash towards important purchases like little sweaters for your cats.

[Erin]

Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings.

[Georgia Hardstark]

So brilliant. See all of your subscriptions in one place and know exactly where your money is going. And for the ones you don't want, Rocket Money can help you cancel them. With just a few taps.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Their dashboard gives you a clear view.

[Erin]

Of your expenses across all your accounts.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Rocket Money will even try to negotiate lower bills for you, sometimes by up to 20%. They automatically scan your bills to find opportunities to save. Then you can ask them to negotiate for you. They'll deal with customer service.

[Erin]

I want a relationship with Rocket Money. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's premium features.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to rocketmoney.com murder that's rocketmoney.com murder rocketmoney.com murder Bye bye. Calling all thrill seekers and mystery enthusiasts. Have you checked out the new television series Cross on Prime Video? Based upon the character created by James Patterson. This is Detective Alex Cross like you've never seen him before. It's a cat and mouse edge of your seat thrill ride that will keep you guessing. Cross stars Aldous Hodge as Alex Cross, DC's lead investigator and forensic psychologist. With a serial killer terrorizing dc, Cross finds himself in a race against the clock to save the latest victim. Follow Cross as he navigates a maze of clues, uncovers dark secrets and corruption, all while someone from his past is threatening his family. You'll be rooting for Alex Cross and loving the killer soundtrack. Get ready to tune in and work the case. Watch Cross a new series only on Prime Video. Watch now. Goodbye.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, okay. You're. You're first this week.

[Diana]

I'm first this week.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay, let's get down to business. I don't want to want to mess around. What is this? Something Circus in town.

[Diana]

We're going to get deep into this. Are you guys ready for our favorite murders? Wait, yes. Where the is my fav. We love murder. Oh my God. I thought mine was deleted from my.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh my God.

[Diana]

All right, I've never heard of this one. Uh, oh, the Freeway Phantom Killer.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, shit.

[Diana]

Y'all, you heard of this one?

[Erin]

I don't know.

[Diana]

Oh, man, I don't think so. This is some fucked up shit. And here's what I was thinking. I don't wanna. I want to not only do white women like Martha Moxley getting killed, right? I don't want to do that. I found this one and I'm like, I've never heard of this. And it's a fucking serial killer where six young girls gotten murdered in the same area.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Are they women of color?

[Diana]

They are all black women.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. That's fucking yeah.

[Diana]

And it's tragic. It's the. I'll get into it. All right, here we go. So the Freeway Phantom was a name given to an unidentified serial killer known to have abducted, rape and strangled six female youths in the Washington D.C. area from April 1971 through September 1972. So it's not even a fucking year.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Diana]

Which immediately makes you think he got arrested right afterwards or moved on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, because they don't know who it is.

[Diana]

Oh, yeah. Unidentified still.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, sorry. Okay.

[Diana]

No, it's fine. I. It's fine. I have some suspects. The victims were all African American girls between the ages of 10 and 18.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no.

[Diana]

Sweet baby angels. Okay, so the first One was in April 1971. Thirteen year old Carol Spinks was sent by her sister to go to a 711 located half a mile away from her home. Which is like what you do back then, you go walk and 13, that's like old enough.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, so old. We used to walk to the store, the corner store, which is like easily a half a mile away every single day from when I was like 6 years old.

[Diana]

Yeah, we used. We used to jaywalk on one of the busiest streets. Like encouraged to jaywalk to the store across the street. Just cut across the street. Just run fast, you fucking idiot. On her way home from the store, Carol was abducted and her body was found six days later on a grassy embankment next to the northbound lanes of the i295. Over a month later, in July, Darlenia Johnson was 16, was abducted while on her way to a summer job at a Recreation Recreation Center. Eleven days later, her body was discovered 15ft from where Sphinx had been found. So again, on the Freeway. Near the freeway. In July 1971, little 10 year old Brenda Crockett failed to return home after having been seen sent to the store by her mother. Again, three hours. Okay, here's this. Interesting. Three hours after Brenda was last seen, because they were immediately like this. She should have come home.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Diana]

The phone rang and it was answered by her seven year old sister who was waiting at home to see if she'd come home. While her family was searching the neighborhood, Brenda was on the line crying. And she said, a white man picked me up and I'm heading home in a cab. And then she added that she believed she was in Virginia before abruptly saying bye and hanging up. Where?

[Karen Kilgariff]

What?

[Diana]

A short time later.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Sorry. If it's 1971, how is she calling from Being. How is she calling from a cab?

[Diana]

Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of inconsistencies. Well, let's. I want to hear your opinion on this too. Okay.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This sucks.

[Diana]

I know. I'm sorry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No, no, no. I mean, I guess I feel like I can see them in my head.

[Diana]

I do too. A short time later, the phone rang again. And this time it was answered by the boyfriend of Brenda's mother. It was Brenda again. And she repeated what she said to her sister and then said, did my mother see me? And he asked, how could she see you when you're in Virginia? And the boyfriend also said, tell the man to come to the phone and tell me where you're at and I'll come get you. The boyfriend then heard heavy footsteps in the background and Brenda said, I'll see you. And the line went dead. A few hours later, Brenda was found by a hitchhiker on Route 50 near the I295, in a place where she couldn't be missed. She had been raped and strangled and a scarf is knotted around her neck.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What.

[Diana]

What is the thing? Did my mom see me? Makes me think she like drove by the house in this person's car. Like somehow it was someone they knew. You know what I mean? And it was a white man. Was maybe. And I'm coming home was maybe a. The killer told her that. Told her to say that, to throw them off. Because I bet they didn't expect them to start searching for her so quickly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right?

[Diana]

Also, maybe she was in the neighborhood.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I wonder, like, why would he let her use the phone? Was she on drugs or drugged in some way that she was saying weird shit like, you know, like she got chloroformed, woke up, grabbed the phone.

[Diana]

Totally something. I mean, but why would that happen a couple times, yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Where was the guy?

[Diana]

Yeah, it makes me think that it's someone she knew.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did my mom see me?

[Diana]

Yeah. Or maybe he. Maybe he lied to her and said, your mom sent me to come get you or something.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah, Your mom knows that you're. You're getting in the car with me?

[Diana]

Yeah. Your mom saw what you were doing? I don't know. Okay. So authorities quickly concluded that Brenda's call home was that the behest of the killer. That's just their guess, you know. Furthermore, one witness reported having seen one of the victims, Ms. Johnson, in an old black car driven by an African American male shortly after her abduction. So then in October 1971, 12 year old Nemoshia Yates was walking home from a Safeway store in Northeast Washington, D.C. when she was kidnapped, raped and strangled. Her body was found within a few hours of her abduction. Again, which is interesting that he just doesn't keep the bodies right. Just off the shoulder of the Pennsylvania Avenue. The shoulder of Pennsylvania Avenue in Maryland. It's after this murder that the quote, Freeway Phantom moniker was first used in the city tabloid article describing the murders. So in the last murder, it was November 1971. After having dinner with a high school classmate, Brenda Woodward, 18, boarded a city bus to return to her home. And six hours later, police officers discovered her body stabbed and strangled in a grassy area near an access ramp to Route 202 in the Baltimore Washington Parkway. Okay, so here's a weird. Oh, no, that's not the final victim. That's the second to final victim. I'm sorry. So a coat had been placed over her as if it was like tucking her in. And in the pockets there was a note from the killer. It said, this is tantamount to my. Sorry. This is tantamount to my insensitivity to people, especially women. I will admit the others when you can catch me. Exclamation mark. Signed the Freeway Phantom, but he wrote freeway. The Freeway Phantom. And they're saying that it looks like the note was written by the victim in her own handwriting. But I looked at the note and it looks like a fucking psychopath's handwriting. It doesn't look like her handwriting.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So were they interpreting as like a young person's handwriting or.

[Diana]

Yeah, like that. It wasn't hers, but I didn't. No, no, no, not a young person. Just like. I don't know why they came to that conclusion. And nobody, I'll tell you why. Nobody knows that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Also, is he using the word tantamount correctly?

[Diana]

Let's that will come back around.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Diana]

Yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah. This is tantamount to my insensitivity to people, especially. So he's saying this is the point. This is how. This is how much I don't like people. I don't care about people, especially women.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Diana]

That's what his point is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I always thought that meant tantamount. Meant equivalent, though.

[Diana]

That's what it means. So I think this murder of this girl is equivalent to how much I don't give a shit about people.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay.

[Diana]

I mean, it's not used correctly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Got it.

[Diana]

So, September 1972.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't know why I'm so worried about grammar all of a sudden.

[Diana]

No, because it actually comes back. Or it's an interesting word to use that one would think can be like in the jinx. How he spelled Beverly.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Diana]

Which helped get him caught. Is a fucking great clue.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Every single thing, every little. Can be a clue.

[Diana]

Every dot of the. I can, like, can indicate something. Indicate or exonerate something.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Diana]

So September 1972. The Phantom's final victim. So the high school senior, Diane Williams. She had cooked dinner for her family and then visited her boyfriend's house. She was last seen boarding a bus again. And a short time later, her strangled body was discovered alongside the i295 just south of the district line. So those are the murders they raped. Yeah. So 30 the slings supposedly triggered one of the largest investigations in the region. As seen, two dozen detectives were assigned to the hunt initially, and the FBI was called in until Watergate diverted the agency's manpower.

[Erin]

Oh, man.

[Diana]

And rich politicians ruin it again with their stupid bullshit. Yep, it's my cat kicking you a little bit. Okay, I'm sorry. So among the individuals considered were a gang known as the Green Vega Rapists. That's a fucking cheery name.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Jesus Christ.

[Diana]

Do you think they danced?

[Karen Kilgariff]

What were they up to?

[Diana]

I don't. No. Just simple little. They played craps. Members of this gang were collectively responsible for numerous Washington, D.C. and surrounding Maryland vicinity rapes and abductions that have curved near the Washington Beltway. So everyone thought it was them. One dude was like one of the gang members and they were all incarcerated. Was like, I know it wasn't me. I had nothing to do with it. I know who did it. If you don't say who I am, if you keep me anonymous, I'll give you information. And they were like, okay. And he was gonna identify. He identified the guy, the date and location of the crime, and a Signature detail which was not provided to the public but which was known only to the perpetrator and to detectives, that signature information was correct. The inmate who provided the information says he wasn't involved, blah, blah, blah. He had an alibi, a verified alibi. But during this period an election was being held in Maryland and one of the candidates publicly announced to the press that a break had occurred in the Freeway Phantom investigation and provided that an inmate at the prison where this guy was at had given information. No, after that announcement, the inmate who provided the information was.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Was killed.

[Diana]

No, not killed, but maybe eventually. But he was like later days and denied that he had anything. He was just like, I'm out, you rube. Total rube.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You idiot politician fucking idiot.

[Diana]

And looking through the. I don't think he. I don't think they had any. That they were involved.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I don't think the Green Vega rapists.

[Diana]

Looking at the evidence and their, their M.O. and this sounds like the work of one person, I don't think this was them. And it's like raping rape is a different crime than murdering and kidnapping. Raping, murdering with bare hands, disposing of a body.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, I would think that in gangs, like it reminds me of like Hell's Angels or something where they take women. They don't usually raping a 10 year old child crosses a line. Even when you are a gang member, even when you are like pedophilia and all that kind of shit is not. That's not just standard and activity gaining.

[Diana]

Access and the trust of these girls. And to get, you know, he had to have gotten them in his car somehow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's right.

[Diana]

They had to have gone with him somehow.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's wolf in sheep's clothing. If you see a gang member, if you see three gang members coming at you, you fucking run. You don't get in their car.

[Diana]

Even then children are taught don't talk to strangers. So if you see. But yeah, if you see gang members, you're not going to fucking get in the car.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Diana]

All right, so I don't think it's them, but the case is still open, as we said. So fucked up. Let's see here. All right, so. And there's not the last article I could find from any of this was from 2013. So. And at that time. All right, let's. Here we go. So the D.C. police detective, James Trainham, he's kind of the dude now who's like, I'm gonna try to. Or was in like 2006. He's like, I'm gonna get this sucker.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Diana]

And a lucky hit on DNA sample could change all that. So here. But here's the fucking thing. Everything got lost. Everything got lost or destroyed. All of the fucking evidence. And that's why that note, there's a photo of it, but you know, there's no way to test it. Everything got thrown away and destroyed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

No.

[Diana]

Yep. But the good news is that because it was in different districts, they were able to find a DNA sample from a district that. Not the main district that. Oh, so Maryland has. Maryland State Police have a sample found on Williams, one of the girls who was killed. And they had never tested it because they. Because she was leaving her boyfriends, so they figured that she had had sex with her boyfriend that night, so they never fucking tested the DNA.

[Karen Kilgariff]

What? Why wouldn't they ask her?

[Diana]

She was dead.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh. Oh, my God. I'm so sorry. Oh, my.

[Diana]

Ask him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Ask him. I forgot what podcast I was on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Oh, my God.

[Diana]

They did ask him, and he said they didn't have sex.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I. It's so irritating. Like, anytime you talk about, like, police making assumptions, I just. My mind goes to, like, what?

[Diana]

And this is why people. I don't want to, like, I don't want to just fucking bury all the cops and this and everything, because this is how stuff was done back then.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This was how stuff was done. That's right.

[Diana]

And it seems like they did put a lot of work into it. But if you ask the families, which there's a lot of interviews from the families, they fucking didn't. And the families are like, it's because if these were all blonde white women, this would have been solved.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's exactly right.

[Diana]

And, you know, you can't help but believe that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Of course. Of course that's true. Of course it is. We've. That's just been tested out time and again. But the other thing is that the attitude of these cops is like, immediately, you're the victim of a crime, you're dead, You've been murdered. And suddenly it's like, well, she fucked her boy. There is. You can hear the slut shaming through the years, and you just know that that's. They were. It makes me crazy. It's just like not treating people with respect, even in death. I agree.

[Diana]

And this is why I wanted to do this. This is why when I was looking for the next one, I was like, I've never fucking heard about this. And this is like, six children got fucking murdered, and there's nobody who got ever, you know, fingered for it. It's insane.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Diana]

So this guy Tranum, he took it up as a cold case in 2004. He was like, I'm gonna solve this. He thought he had a key piece of evidence that on the clothing of the Phantom's last known victim, they found a potential DNA sample. Let's see here. Okay. So because her body was discovered over this, over the district line in Prince George, Maryland, police initially handled the case. And so they had this information. And so it's like this. I found all these articles that they're like. So the DNA testing will be done. If the sample yields a good profile, it'll be submitted to the database, blah, blah, blah. But the last fucking thing I can find about that was from 2013. So I don't know if it's been tested or.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I feel like there should be money.

[Diana]

I think there's 150. Oh. To test it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, I'm just saying I feel like people in this country need jobs. And like, there's like the whole thing of, like old rape kits that haven't gone tested and they're actually doing. What I love is Mariska Harkitay is doing all that work to change it, which, God bless her and all the other people. There's a bunch of people that are like, is the woman that's the mayor of. Is she the city councilwoman in Detroit or she's the mayor of somewhere? It's on the Facebook page. That's where I read it. But these people that are just stepping up and being like, no, but I feel like some company could make money. Why aren't they just prioritizing this the way they do everything else in terms of financial gain, pay people. Get it going.

[Diana]

Okay. Let's change that. And let's change statute of limitations on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Rape, which is insane.

[Diana]

There's a stat. I just want everyone to think about that. There's a statute of limitations on fucking rape. Even if it's pedophilia.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. And if it's a 10 year old girl that was just trying to go to the corner store.

[Diana]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And here's one thing I'll change is I'll remember that the people that we're talking about are dead. I don't know what. I don't know what just happened.

[Diana]

Were you really thinking that, like in your brain?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, you know what? It was this. What's that? The second that you started saying that of like, they just assumed she had sex with a boyfriend, I just went down that whole thing of like, how many stories to this day in 2016 you hear of judges being the sexism and the misogyny that you hear to this day of like in the legal system.

[Diana]

And the reason why you'll never know the exact number of rape victims is because why would you go, why would you come forward with this rape if you know you're going to be like, well, you fucked your boyfriend earlier, so it's probably not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's just sickening. I mean, it's happening less and less, but the fact that it still happens at all is just a disgrace. It's just like we need to do better as the human race.

[Diana]

We do. So Tranum called on an expert who specializes in. This is a fucking fascinating fact, specializes in narrowing the field of suspects. Kim Rossmo, she's a former Canadian police officer and professor at Texas State University, developed a computer system that plots crime events on a map and helps determine where the suspect's, quote, anchor point or home or workplace or significant location might be. How fucking cool is that? Yeah, so they spent weeks looking through reports together. They visited the crime scene and they developed a geographic profile of the killer's movements. I mean, they think the anchor point was in Congress Heights, just south of the of the hospital. I don't really understand. Nothing came out of that. So they have a suspect that I think sounds pretty good. So there's this dude, Robert Askins, a S K I N S who's also some like web developer. So when you Google him, put murder in. He had been charged with raping a 24 year old woman in his house. He had killed prostitutes. He had been charged three times with homicide. He was in St. Elizabeth's Hospital, which is down the street from where they thought that he lived. That the killer lived and had later been convicted in a 1938 killing of a prostitute by cyanide poisoning.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Jesus Christ.

[Diana]

But his sentence had been overturned on legal technicalities. And saying that he was too impaired to stand, like too drunk at the time to be liable for it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Did you say 1938?

[Diana]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So when he was really young and he was probably doing, if it was him doing these ones when he was way older.

[Diana]

Yeah. So they arrested him in 1977 for something else. They found some. Okay, so here's the interesting part. So they went through his stuff and they found in his desk drawer a footnote from the judge, the judge's sentence and the word tantamount had been used over and over in that. And later he would learn that this guy Askins often used the word at the National Science foundation where he used As a. He was. Worked as a crime. As a computer technician. So everyone he worked with is like. He used the word tantamount a lot. I've never fucking used that word.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I've never used that word. I've never heard anybody else use that word.

[Diana]

That's like. Oh, that's like a fucking Elmer Fudd word.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. There's a tantamount to.

[Diana]

Do you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's crazy. And also, was this guy white?

[Diana]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's fascinating. He was like a black computer scientist in the 60s and 70s.

[Diana]

Can I say something?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah.

[Diana]

I don't know if he was white.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You don't know if he was white or black?

[Diana]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's very interesting.

[Diana]

I'm going to edit that out because I needed. I should have seen that, but I couldn't find any photos of him.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, I guess I assumed he was black because they saw the one girl in a car with a black eye.

[Diana]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But that doesn't mean anything. Okay, we'll take it out.

[Diana]

Technicians found on all six victims green synthetic carpet fiber. Excuse me. On all but one of the victims clothing. And they couldn't find anything like that in this dude's house. And they dug up his backyard and they didn't find anything. And he was never charged. He's 87, serving a life sentence in north. In a federal prison. I think he died in like 2009 or so.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But on his record he had already been arrested for killing people three other times.

[Diana]

Yeah, but they were always prostitutes. But when. But when he was asked by a reporter later, he said, I didn't do those crimes, but I fucked. I hated women so much. Like, he almost was like, I wish I had.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Wow. Yeah, well, that's crazy.

[Diana]

So it's still an open case. Maybe. I called the crime hotline in the county.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh yeah.

[Diana]

And asked if they had checked the dm, if they had searched the DNA.

[Karen Kilgariff]

To get an update.

[Diana]

And they like didn't know what the fuck I was talking about. And I felt like an idiot.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Hey, at least you tried. I wonder how you do find out about stuff like that.

[Diana]

I think you have to be an authority. You have to have me some kind of authority. I don't think they'll just give that out. Let's find out about that. Can someone who's like in forensics find out if that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Or just people that are listening. If you want to be a sleuth, try to find out updates on the Freeway Phantom murders. We're.

[Diana]

The last thing I saw was like, they're trying to test the DNA. And then.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And then just nothing. Nothing.

[Diana]

Not even like there was no match or there was. It was inconclusive. I mean, I'm just curious.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's. Well, and also, it's just that it's such a quagmire of, like, DNA and testing and all that stuff. It's like there are some places where it takes years.

[Diana]

Yeah. I mean, yeah. Especially places where that have high crime. That's not their priority. And this guy's probably dead, whoever it is.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right.

[Diana]

But the families deserve answers. And that's the point, is that families deserve answers just as much as any other family.

[Erin]

That is so sad and horrifying.

[Diana]

Awful.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, awful. I mean, as I was rereading through the details of the case to do this, I'm just shocked over and over again and so amazed that there's no updates in this case. It seems like it should be solved now. Yes, thank you very much.

[Diana]

Like, let's get back to this.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I have two corrections from my story. One is that the suspect, Robert Askins, died in prison in 2010, not 2009 like I stated in the episode. And through the episode, I mispronounced one of the victims names. I called her Brenda Woodward, but her last name was actually Woodard. So my apologies there. And also, if you're interested in this case, which you should be, it's fucking fascinating, let's get shed more light on it. Our friends over at Tenderfoot TV put out a limited series podcast about this case called Freeway Phantom. So definitely check that out. They make such good work over there.

[Erin]

I definitely want to listen to that.

[Diana]

I do, too.

[Erin]

Yeah, it deserves the deepest dive and like.

[Diana]

Yeah, yeah, Fresh eyes.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, well, let's get into Karen's fucking horrible story. This is the story of Anders Baring Breivik. And just a warning, this story is about a mass shooting. So take some precautions if you need to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right, do you want to hear my this week's My Favorite murder?

[Diana]

Yes, please.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This is one I've wanted to do for a while. And I have to say, when I was looking up the different ones that I wanted to do today, I am very tired from my work. Having to work and do things, do homework as well. I know I'm not used to it. I'm kind of more of a lady of leisure. But I realized that all the ones I want to do are episodes of I Survived that I've seen that I loved. And I was like, I can't just keep retelling I survived stories.

[Diana]

Can't you?

[Karen Kilgariff]

I guess I can though, because I did again.

[Diana]

And if you. If you add little details in that they didn't add in.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right. Well, because that's all firsthand account. So it's basically the person saying, this is like what it was like for me to go through it.

[Diana]

Right.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But I just love that show so much because they are amazing. The stories themselves are crazy and amazing.

[Diana]

I'm not gonna watch it because I just want to hear from you.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Okay. Oh, that's.

[Diana]

That's perfect.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Then I'll never have to bust myself again. But they did a special and I survived of the Norway attacks. I don't know if you remember those, but they were the attacks on July 22 in 2011, where Anders Baring Breivik, who was a crazy fucking right wing, fascist, lunatic, racist asshole, first blew up a government building in Oslo and then went on to an island that had a summer camp.

[Diana]

I remember this horrifying. Go on.

[Karen Kilgariff]

All right, so there is. I can't remember. I couldn't find the actual season and episode number. But if you look up the Norway attacks I survived. They have a special episode where it's four different kids who were on the island who survived these attacks. And it also. They speak perfect English.

[Diana]

Oh, my God, what Oslo's like. Isn't that where the. It's the most peaceful place in the fucking world.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Not since World War II had they had violence like this in their country. It also has the most beautiful people. My college roommate Kristen was obsessed with Norway. And she went there one summer. She talked about it constantly and she showed me these pictures. She like. We went there and we went to this music festival and everyone was just like a gorgeous blonde model. They are truly amazing. So, yeah, it's pretty great. I mean, they've got it down, but of course there's always gotta be an asshole to ruin things.

[Diana]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So this guy, Anders Bering Breivik, he drove a van with a bomb made of fertilizer and fuel oil, which was similar to the Oklahoma bombing. Oklahoma City bombing. He went and drove that and parked it next to the building where the office of the Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg was. And that van blew up. It killed eight people and it injured 209, 12 of them very seriously. Luckily, fewer. Fewer people than normal were in the area because it was during. In July, so most people. That's the vacation month for Norwegians, and it was a Friday afternoon, so government people were gone for the day.

[Diana]

Why did he do that?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because he had posted a video on YouTube the day before where he was wearing a scuba suit and holding AK47 and talking about he wanted to rid his nation of Muslims.

[Diana]

Yeah, the Muslims are the problem, you fucking psychopath.

[Karen Kilgariff]

You fucking terrorist. So, okay, so he does this hideous bombing. All of Oslo is just going nuts because it doesn't happen there. It does not happen there. And then less than two hours later, this guy Brevik, he's dressed up like a cop.

[Diana]

Yeah, that's not fair. Like, I call bullshit on that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's the creepiest worst. That thing where you immediately have the trust of people and you're manipulating that trust. So he gets on a. A ferry, and he takes the ferry over to the island of Utoya. I'm going to pronounce it like a dirty American. And as I will every other word in this article that is basically sounds like me reading an IKEA catalog. It's going to be that bad.

[Diana]

I wonder if any murderer has ever taken a fairy to his. To his murder place. You know what I mean?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah, that seems almost like maybe that should be next week's theme.

[Diana]

Yeah, I think he should have taken a. Like, Like a moat. Like, what's a. What are the ones where you stand up and room across the.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, like a gondola.

[Diana]

A jet ski. Oh, like a jet ski.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A ski.

[Diana]

Do something. But a ferry.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He had to jump on the ferry with all the other commuters. So he goes over to this, a summer camp. The average age of the campers are 18. No, they're the Norwegian Youth Labor Party. So it's basically, it would be like if a bunch of young Democrats and there was a lot of children that were related to.

[Diana]

Higher ups in the government.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes, Government workers and people that were. Sorry.

[Diana]

So he was. No, you're good. He was sending a message strictly to these people, which, like, when has that ever worked? When are people ever going to be.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Like, okay, yeah, I mean, here's the thing. If your plan is to kill people's children, you're the bad guy. Sorry. Anyway, yeah, I'm doing it again. So he goes over onto the island of Utoya. He is dressed like a cop, and he tells them. They hear about the bombing in Oslo, which is of course, like, it's a national emergency.

[Diana]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So he, as dressed as a police officer, goes to say that he's come for a routine check because there's all these diplomat and politicians, children on this island. So he's there to check if everybody's okay.

[Diana]

Sure.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So he meets with Monica, a woman named Monica Boise, who is the camp leader and the island hostess. And she. There is also a man who is the security officer on the island named Trond Bernston. And he was also an off duty cop.

[Diana]

Oh, please do something.

[Karen Kilgariff]

He killed Brevik. Killed both of them immediately.

[Diana]

Son of a. I was gonna be like, maybe this guy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. No. So he basically, he gets on, gets access to the island immediately, meets with the people in charge, takes out the adults in charge.

[Diana]

How surprised do you have to be to have that happen to you? Like the moment before you die.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, my God. It's the last thing you expect.

[Diana]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

And so he goes down. So in this episode of I Survived, the kids tell this story, but there was a lot of kids. They had gathered everybody up to tell them that this bombing had happened in Oslo. So then there were still people sitting on this big kind of outside area, kind of standing around and talking about it. And this guy shows up dressed as a cop and he calls everyone around, asks them to gather up, and then just starts shooting. And so the kids have. It's like they've just gotten this terrible news, then this starts happening. They have no idea what's going on.

[Diana]

Like, you don't even know to run because it's so surreal.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's so surreal. That's what they all say. And he's dressed like a policeman. So on top of it, they don't understand what's happening.

[Diana]

Yeah, because they probably still think he's a policeman. It's not like you're like, oh, this guy lied.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Right, Exactly. And also, you're far away enough. So if you're seeing it happen, like they think, is this some sort of huge prank or is it an emergency? Some of the kids said that on the other parts of the island, because they did have. It wasn't strange that there would be gunshots on the island because they were out in nature. And they said that wasn't a weird thing. Yeah, like that. That didn't surprise them. But then it was when they heard screaming that they realized something bad was happening. This island is also very small.

[Diana]

Is it?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. So for the next hour and a half.

[Diana]

No.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yep. This guy rampage walking and running around the island, picking kids off. So where are they?

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hide.

[Diana]

Where do you hide?

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's such a nightmare. So some kids hid in a freezer. And there's kids that told a story of hiding in a freezer. Like five kids. He walked into the kitchen area, all the way around and to the freezer, but didn't look inside and walked away. And that's the reason they survived. And there's kids. There's article after article where kids tell stories like that. Where they were in their bunk, they all went under mattresses or whatever and they just held their breath and hid. And then there's other stories that these kids tell from I Survived, where like they're hiding and their phone goes off because the parents.

[Diana]

The parents are.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yeah. Are calling to see if they're okay. And that's what gives them away. It's. It's bone chilling. This guy just walks around picking off kids.

[Diana]

I always want to know, like in the in. I always immediately think when I hear stories like that or like Columbine or School of Shootings, like, where would I be in that room? Like, where would I hide? Where would I be?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Yes.

[Diana]

It's. You're never gonna, you're never gonna know if it's the right place to go or not.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Well, and also when you're in a panic situation like that, you're just gonna make do with what the best, you know, thing that's near you. It's just luck. It's dumb luck and random fate.

[Diana]

Totally.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's terrible. The other thing too is he had enough time that he was going around, he shot kids. And then there was some kids who were just laying there pretending to be dead. He had enough time to go back around and double check and shoot them if they weren't dead. So it's fucked. So some kids had places to hide. Some kids would come out of the places where they were hiding and then realize that the guy wasn't gone yet. So they would hide for half an hour and then think it must be all clear. And it. Just because they weren't hearing screaming anymore.

[Diana]

You guys don't leave your hiding place until a real cop comes. I don't know.

[Karen Kilgariff]

But how would you know?

[Diana]

I mean, as I was saying that.

[Karen Kilgariff]

I was like, I know this is why. I mean, this is like, this is such a terrible worst case scenario because it's also in a place where nothing. They don't have school shootings, they don't have stuff like that happen. It's not common at all. And then they're also. It's just a kid's camp. It's like such so much innocence that it, that like, it's just the most surreal. A bunch of kids jump into the lake and start swimming away across. And now it's really cold water, really cold water. And thank God there were people that were on the islands across and in the houses that heard stuff, heard gunshots, heard screaming. At first thought that the gunshots must have been firecrackers, whatever. But there was one guy who had a big boat who heard it and, oh, got a call this to say something bad is happening. You have to go over to that island. He thought it was a prank, but went anyway. God bless. He saved 30 kids.

[Diana]

Holy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Because he just went. He was like, this sounds like nothing, but I will go anyway. There were kids in the water. He was throwing out life jackets to kids who he couldn't fit on the boat. They did like four trips. He did that. He was a local named Marcel Geffe is how I'm gonna think it's pronounced. He was a German resident that was staying at a camping area on the mainland and he got his boat out there. Then there was another. 40 kids were saved by Hegy H E G E Dahlin and Torrel Hansen, who was a married couple who were holidaying nearby. This Wikipedia was clearly written by a foreign person using words like holidaying. Dahlin was helping from land. So kids were swimming up onto land and she was getting them, like, to safety while Hanson and another neighbor were making boat trip rescues. Then there was a man named Casper Oleg who made three trips to the island in his boat and. Oh, sorry. Caspar is the one who thought initially it was a prank, but went anyway. Altogether, 150 kids swam away from the island and were pulled out of the fjord by campers on the island opposite shore.

[Diana]

Holy.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So that's an I. It always makes me feel better when you hear that, like other citizens taking action and helping out. But the thing was, this motherfucker, once he saw that kids were getting into the water, went down and just started strafing the water, dude. So he was in berserker mode, as they like to say on last podcast on the left. He was in the mode where he was. No one was going to live.

[Diana]

How did they stop him?

[Karen Kilgariff]

Basically, the cops finally showed up after an hour and a half.

[Diana]

Why did it take so long? Because they were at the other. They were at the bombing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

They were at the other bombing and they didn't get word and all there. It was a bunch of different stuff. But yeah, it basically just took them. That was how far away it was and how long it took. They finally got on. It was a bunch of cops in full riot gear and SWAT type gear went on and just made an announcement saying, put your gun down. And I think at that point he. He was done. Yeah, because they said he had made a couple of calls too. So I think it was that kind of thing. Where it was like he made his first round and then it was just like he was coming down off of it.

[Diana]

And he was ready to put his message out too, probably. Yeah, it was like not. This wasn't just to kill people, this was like a message.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It was absolutely a message. And it was this kind of thing of like, we need to take our country back and this is how we're.

[Erin]

Going to do it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

We're going to deliver the message to these politicians and to these people who are, quote, unquote, allowing things to happen. So at the end of the day, brevik had killed 68 children outright. Jesus, 68 children.

[Diana]

Oh my God.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's more. That was in my high school graduating class.

[Diana]

That makes me so sick.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's terrible. And then he injured 110, 55 of them seriously. The 69th victim died in the hospital two days later. So he was arrested. He was examined by a court appointed forensic psychiatrist and he was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. And they concluded that he was psychotic at the time of the attacks and criminally insane. But they, when it came time to have him go to court, they did a second psychiatric evaluation and found that he was not criminally and saying that he was fully aware of what he was doing. It was planned and it had been planned for years because not only did he post that YouTube video the night before, but he had been for years had been talking and ranting about this xenophobic shit of we need to get these people out. And of course he had a manifesto. So they find the manifesto and there are sections that he ripped off directly from the Unabomber without attributing. And he just replaced, he replaced leftists, which was Unabomber, with cultural Marxists. When he got on to, when he first started shooting the kids, he kept yelling, today is the day you die, Marxist. So he was accusing everybody of being, you know, communists or whatever, my children.

[Diana]

I mean, not that adults are any better, but it's just like, because that's.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Going to send like the fastest, worst message. And it's also, it's. That's a person who wants to do evil.

[Diana]

Yeah.

[Karen Kilgariff]

This isn't just, you know, you send it, you, you park a van that has a bomb in it next to a government building and you're trying to. That's chaos and mayhem you're trying to.

[Diana]

Create and you're walking away from it. It's not like you're point blank shooting. But that is like he took it.

[Karen Kilgariff]

To the next level because he wanted. He's evil and he wanted evil to be done, which is like, what do you. Who do you think you are to protect anybody from anything? Or pretend that's what your intentions are when what you are doing is killing children of your own country. That's where your argument falls apart. So he also in this manifesto, said he was an admirer of the Tea Party movement of America.

[Diana]

Oh, well, there you go.

[Karen Kilgariff]

So, you know, just know that. Know who you're appealing to. On August 24, he was found to be saned by that panel of judges and sentenced to preventative detention, which is a sentence of 21 years in prison that can be repeatedly extended by five years as long as the person is considered a threat to society.

[Diana]

That's not long enough. He should have been fucking.

[Karen Kilgariff]

It's the maximum sentence allowed by Norwegian law. And the only way to get to allow for life imprisonment is to get the 21 year sentence and then re up it every five years.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, we're back. And this story still is just so heartbreaking.

[Erin]

It's a horror movie. I mean, it truly is. It's a horror movie. And as a story, it's like a person who tried to plan the most painful, hurtful, scary thing that he could do, and then he did it.

[Diana]

Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Are there any updates, Karen?

[Erin]

No major updates. So Breivik has been held in isolation since he began his prison sentence in 2012. So he tried to sue the state, saying that his human rights were being breached, according to the Justice Ministry. So it's inhumane to hold him in isolation, but the reason he's being held in isolation is because he did a thing that people can't even fathom or wrap their head around. It's just like, I don't know.

[Georgia Hardstark]

All right, well, let's turn this around and we can end this rewind episode on what we would call the podcast now, if we were naming it after. Or a quote from the episode and not a weird number system.

[Diana]

That's like falling apart already.

[Erin]

That's clearly falling apart because we're basing it on what the Duggars are doing.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's.

[Georgia Hardstark]

The wheels have come off the fucking car, but we're still driving it.

[Erin]

Look, 2024 will not hold up. You know, eight and a half years from now. Let me. That's just the thing people need to.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Realize is just like all of this.

[Erin]

As we evolve, we can't look back and go, we did great people.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We will never do that. That's our promise to you.

[Erin]

We really can't. But I think it's interesting this is such a clear episode where we needed.

[Karen Kilgariff]

A good producer to go, hey, if.

[Erin]

You'Re gonna do this story, if Karen's gonna do this story, then we have.

[Karen Kilgariff]

To do a slightly.

[Erin]

A slightly different story so it's not so horrifying in this show.

[Diana]

Totally, totally, totally.

[Erin]

We didn't do it this time.

[Diana]

Nope.

[Erin]

Too early.

[Diana]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Georgia Hardstark]

You have two jobs. I think I had a couple weird gigs.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Oh, yeah, you had some.

[Erin]

You had some stuff. You were doing that. Weren't you doing, like, a streaming thing or some sort of, like, video thing for your other podcast?

[Diana]

Oh, yeah, that's right.

[Georgia Hardstark]

We were doing, like, a. Yeah, streaming thing.

[Erin]

We were busy.

[Diana]

We were busy, ladies.

[Erin]

Oh, the suggestions for the titles. Encourage to jaywalk.

[Karen Kilgariff]

That's a great one.

[Erin]

Georgia said that when she was talking about being a kid and walking alone on.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I hear that. It's so true. Jaywalk, you'll be quicker.

[Erin]

Just run.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Yeah, get quick home.

[Diana]

So jaywalk.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Hitchhike, Get a ride from a stranger.

[Diana]

If you want to get home quicker.

[Erin]

You're five, so run out in the street where they can't see you.

[Georgia Hardstark]

I'm pretty good at jaywalking now.

[Diana]

I will say. And then.

[Georgia Hardstark]

This is the first time I think I said sweet baby angels, referring to the victims of the Freeway Phantom.

[Diana]

Pretty wild.

[Erin]

Well, I mean, sometimes we just have.

[Karen Kilgariff]

To review episodes that are just a.

[Erin]

Bummer in every way, but we did that.

[Georgia Hardstark]

And thank you guys for listening. Stick around for more rewind episodes.

[Diana]

We'll keep doing them if you like.

[Erin]

Yeah, that's right. Thanks for showing up.

[Georgia Hardstark]

Stay sexy and don't get murdered.

[Karen Kilgariff]

Goodbye, Elvis.

[Diana]

Do you want a cookie?